From ikvsabre at comcast.net Mon Dec 1 07:05:20 2003 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:31 2005 Subject: Mel the Programmer (aka Mel Kaye) In-Reply-To: <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> References: <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> Message-ID: <200312010805200140.001010AB@smtp.comcast.net> I am unfamiliar with "Mel the Programmer" What is he best known for (besides this recent information you cited)? Joe *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 11/30/2003 at 8:54 PM Tom Jennings wrote: >You may have read about the apocryphal Mel the Programmer on the net... > >Well it appears that Mel Kaye was a real person, was a master programmer >for the Royal McBee Corp, and wrote little things like boot code for the >LGP-30. Here's some substantiating factoids. > >http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/mel-the-programmer.html > >Thanks again to Bob Lilley for the pointers. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Dec 1 08:12:54 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:33 2005 Subject: ACP swapmeet and PCmuseum.com In-Reply-To: <200312010805200140.001010AB@smtp.comcast.net> References: <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031201060613.00a67920@pop-server.socal.rr.com> I was at the ACP swapmeet today (in Santa Ana Cal) and the brothers that own Advanced Computer Products are putting their collections of 600 old PCs online, at I think www.PCmuseum.com . Several people on the list must know these guys, but it appears that nobody has invited them to join the list. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 1 09:44:30 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:33 2005 Subject: List of systems... Message-ID: <200312010744.30808.lbickley@bickleywest.com> We are in the process of revamping our website - and we've added our collection of vintage computers. We intend to add pictures, links, etc. over time - but, hey, this is a first cut... Be sure to click the "Systems 2" button at the bottom of the "Systems 1" page http://bickleywest.com/system1.html Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 1 10:01:14 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:33 2005 Subject: ACP swapmeet and PCmuseum.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031201060613.00a67920@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Mike Ford wrote: > I was at the ACP swapmeet today (in Santa Ana Cal) and the brothers that > own Advanced Computer Products are putting their collections of 600 old PCs > online, at I think www.PCmuseum.com . Several people on the list must know > these guys, but it appears that nobody has invited them to join the list. Actually, pcmuseum.com is a couple brothers in Folsom, California (east of Sacramento). They say their collection is used for "forensic examinations of old cases for law enforcement". Interesting. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 1 10:02:39 2003 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:33 2005 Subject: One That Got Away (was: Woohoo! Another DEC score!) References: Message-ID: <3FCB661F.6070904@tiac.net> I helped build the CM-1. Does anyone know what happened to the few CM-1's that were made? William Donzelli wrote: >>I've got a couple of those... a Connection Machine CM-200, and a pdp-12 :-( >> > >The "one" that got away from me were *most* of the Connection Machines. >CM-5s and a few CM-2s. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org > From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 1 10:11:58 2003 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? References: Message-ID: <3FCB684E.4040209@tiac.net> Peter C. Wallace wrote: >On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Bob Shannon wrote: > > >> > > >Another possibility is to emulate only the actual drive in hardware. That is a >simple FPGA +ATA drive based device could emulate the magnetics and head >positioning interface of the original drive. Then you could use the same disk >controller and the system software would see no changes. > >Since there is so much excess storage available in current ATA drives, plus >the original data rates are quite slow relative to a FPGA serial data recovery >clock, an inefficient but simple to implement sector data record and playback >data encoding scheme could be used, for example by storing ~5 bits per >original data bit, the time between data transitions could recorded and >replayed (with possible emulation of magnetic bit timing aberrations to undo >the effects of write-precomp) > >(I think Eric Smith gave me this idea...) > >Peter Wallace > Given an ATA drive, its much simpler to emulate the controller to CPU interface than it is to emulate the controller to disk interface. This is especially true for the MAC-series drives, but totally untrue for the 7900 (which uses a pair of generic TTL-level I/O boards). If the controller is well emulated, the software again sees no difference and runs normally with a much smaller investement of design effort. > From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 1 10:28:37 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: ACP swapmeet and PCmuseum.com References: <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20031201060613.00a67920@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3FCB6C35.3C1869D3@rain.org> I met and talked with the owner of ACP several years ago and told him of this listserver. IIRC, he was fairly busy at the time and wasn't interested in pursuing it then. Mike Ford wrote: > > I was at the ACP swapmeet today (in Santa Ana Cal) and the brothers that > own Advanced Computer Products are putting their collections of 600 old PCs > online, at I think www.PCmuseum.com . Several people on the list must know > these guys, but it appears that nobody has invited them to join the list. From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 1 10:31:08 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <3FCB684E.4040209@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > >On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >Another possibility is to emulate only the actual drive in hardware. That is a > >simple FPGA +ATA drive based device could emulate the magnetics and head > >positioning interface of the original drive. Then you could use the same disk > >controller and the system software would see no changes. > > > >Since there is so much excess storage available in current ATA drives, plus > >the original data rates are quite slow relative to a FPGA serial data recovery > >clock, an inefficient but simple to implement sector data record and playback > >data encoding scheme could be used, for example by storing ~5 bits per > >original data bit, the time between data transitions could recorded and > >replayed (with possible emulation of magnetic bit timing aberrations to undo > >the effects of write-precomp) > > > >(I think Eric Smith gave me this idea...) > > > >Peter Wallace > > > > Given an ATA drive, its much simpler to emulate the controller to CPU > interface than it is > to emulate the controller to disk interface. This is especially true > for the MAC-series drives, but > totally untrue for the 7900 (which uses a pair of generic TTL-level I/O > boards). > > If the controller is well emulated, the software again sees no > difference and runs normally > with a much smaller investement of design effort. > > > > I guess what I was considering is that most of the logic design and hardware would be portable so the same hardware (exclusive of drive specific daughter cards perhaps) could be used to emulate many types of hard drives: MFM, ESDI, SMD, or many older types. The design effort at the controller level only works for one CPU family... Its also simpler in that you dont need a host bus interface, just a blob with flat cable connectors... Peter Wallace From asholz at topinform.com Mon Dec 1 10:32:16 2003 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <3FCB684E.4040209@tiac.net> References: <3FCB684E.4040209@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3FCB6D10.3050206@topinform.com> Hello all, I would like to see a substitution of the now rapidly dying MFM/SMD-disks. I would appreciate if I could swap out a defective Maxtor-XT/ drive, and an IDE-drive into my Symbolics or PDP simply by connecting the "black-box" to the existing cables. Andreas Bob Shannon wrote: > > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Bob Shannon wrote: >> > > >> >>> >> >> >> Another possibility is to emulate only the actual drive in hardware. >> That is a >> simple FPGA +ATA drive based device could emulate the magnetics and head >> positioning interface of the original drive. Then you could use the >> same disk >> controller and the system software would see no changes. >> >> Since there is so much excess storage available in current ATA >> drives, plus >> the original data rates are quite slow relative to a FPGA serial data >> recovery >> clock, an inefficient but simple to implement sector data record and >> playback >> data encoding scheme could be used, for example by storing ~5 bits per >> original data bit, the time between data transitions could recorded and >> replayed (with possible emulation of magnetic bit timing aberrations >> to undo >> the effects of write-precomp) >> >> (I think Eric Smith gave me this idea...) >> >> Peter Wallace >> > > Given an ATA drive, its much simpler to emulate the controller to CPU > interface than it is > to emulate the controller to disk interface. This is especially true > for the MAC-series drives, but > totally untrue for the 7900 (which uses a pair of generic TTL-level > I/O boards). > > If the controller is well emulated, the software again sees no > difference and runs normally > with a much smaller investement of design effort. > >> > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 1 10:35:43 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: One That Got Away (was: Woohoo! Another DEC score!) In-Reply-To: <3FCB661F.6070904@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Bob Shannon wrote: > I helped build the CM-1. > > Does anyone know what happened to the few CM-1's that were made? There's at least one at the Computer History Museum. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 1 10:38:19 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables Message-ID: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> I'm looking for several sets (5 in each set) of PDP-8 NEGIBUS cables. The cable # is BC08D. Can anyone tell me the difference between a BC08D and a BC08B (POSIBUS cable)? I'd hate to do it (lots-o-work) but if I could get a hold of one cable I could replicate as many as I need. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From ken at fraserhouse.com Mon Dec 1 10:40:30 2003 From: ken at fraserhouse.com (Ken Campbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: One That Got Away (was: Woohoo! Another DEC score!) In-Reply-To: <2DD20EB6248CF8BFF3AA018F@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> References: Message-ID: <2DD2146ED2B7FC3D7E3D0193@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Eric Paulos, a researcher at Intel's Berkley Lab, owns a CM2. There's a page on his website that talks a little about it: http://www.paulos.net/other/cm2.html Ken At 11:02 AM 12/1/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I helped build the CM-1. > >Does anyone know what happened to the few CM-1's that were made? > >William Donzelli wrote: > >>>I've got a couple of those... a Connection Machine CM-200, and a pdp-12 :-( >> >>The "one" that got away from me were *most* of the Connection Machines. >>CM-5s and a few CM-2s. >> >>William Donzelli >>aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 1 11:20:14 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: One That Got Away (was: Woohoo! Another DEC score!) In-Reply-To: <3FCB661F.6070904@tiac.net> Message-ID: > Does anyone know what happened to the few CM-1's that were made? When I was at the warehouse, I asked if there were any CM-1 parts around - no luck. A few boards were taken as gifts and wallhangers some time back. At the time (three or four years ago), most of the CM-2s were history - I think there were enough parts left to get one small system maybe working. The vast majority of the scraps were the CM-5s that made there way back home. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 1 11:39:03 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: NEW! Multiple Currency Support on the Vintage Computer Marketplace Message-ID: The Vintage Computer Marketplace is pleased to offer sellers the option of conducting transactions in six new national currencies: Euros, Pounds (Great Britain), Australian Dollars, Canadian Dollars, Japanese Yen, and Hong Kong Dollars. If you are a non-US member, you may click on the "My Profile" link to modify your member preferences and set your default currency. You will also see a new option to set your language/locale, which will allow VCM to perform some specific formatting changes appropriate to your national language. If you're not a member yet, join today (it's free!) http://marketplace.vintage.org -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 1 11:47:37 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <3FCB6D10.3050206@topinform.com> References: <3FCB684E.4040209@tiac.net> <3FCB6D10.3050206@topinform.com> Message-ID: <1070300336.24831.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 16:32, Andreas Holz wrote: > Hello all, > > I would like to see a substitution of the now rapidly dying > MFM/SMD-disks. I would appreciate if I could swap out a defective > Maxtor-XT/ drive, and an IDE-drive into my Symbolics or PDP simply by > connecting the "black-box" to the existing cables. Agreed. Or given the capacity of modern (ish) IDE/SCSI drives versus old hardware, being able to host several virtual drives on one physical one would be interesting, not waste drive space, and make it trivial to back systems up. Several machines' drive controllers could be interfaced across a network to one host. The "black-boxes" would talk ST506 on one side and ethernet on the other, say. Interesting idea anyway... but given the nature of ST506 is it feasible? Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight relationship to the host controller with which the drive was formatted? cheers Jules From luigi.serrantoni at tin.it Mon Dec 1 12:18:38 2003 From: luigi.serrantoni at tin.it (Luigi Serrantoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 References: Message-ID: <005201c3b837$9aa7b4e0$0b01a8c0@hfghf> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 4:22 PM Subject: RE: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 > > I've a multitech microprofessor MPF-1 > > I've found on the lee davison site the basic eprom and i've > > downloaded/programmed an eprom/installed on my MPF-1 > > but i don't know the starting address from where to start the basic :-( > > of course i tried from the beginning of the eprom but without success > > anyone have idea of wich is the starting address? or have any > > manual/magazine article about this MPF basic? > > You can try to find a DI (disable interrupts) instruction : normally code > start with it. > > Alberto Bye Alberto, you are here too !!?!?! Thanks a lot for your suggestion I tried all the DI address as starting address but unfortunally none of them start the basic but I've found an address that starts a digital watch! funny! anyway thank a lot! bye Luigi From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 12:19:07 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Mel the Programmer (aka Mel Kaye) In-Reply-To: "Joe Stevenson" "Re: Mel the Programmer (aka Mel Kaye)" (Dec 1, 8:05) References: <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <200312010805200140.001010AB@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <10312011819.ZM5838@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 8:05, Joe Stevenson wrote: > > I am unfamiliar with "Mel the Programmer" > > What is he best known for (besides this recent information you cited)? If you look at the page given below, and follow the first link, you'd find the story. It's very well known. > On 11/30/2003 at 8:54 PM Tom Jennings wrote: > > >You may have read about the apocryphal Mel the Programmer on the net... > > > >Well it appears that Mel Kaye was a real person, was a master programmer > >for the Royal McBee Corp, and wrote little things like boot code for the > >LGP-30. Here's some substantiating factoids. > > > >http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/mel-the-programmer.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 1 12:37:44 2003 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? References: <3FCB684E.4040209@tiac.net> <3FCB6D10.3050206@topinform.com> <1070300336.24831.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3FCB8A78.6060307@tiac.net> ST-506 does have some nasty hardware elements. If your using the ISA bus, clearly a controller-level emulation using an ATA drive is the way to go here. But if your ST-506 controller uses some other bus the situation changes dramatically. For SCSI, its an all-digital interface with available controller chips, so a SCSI to ATA emulation seems practical. For older Sun machines, a SASI to ATA adapter also seems reasonable. But directly emulating the ST-506 interface? I'll pass on that job! Jules Richardson wrote: >On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 16:32, Andreas Holz wrote: > >>Hello all, >> >>I would like to see a substitution of the now rapidly dying >>MFM/SMD-disks. I would appreciate if I could swap out a defective >>Maxtor-XT/ drive, and an IDE-drive into my Symbolics or PDP simply by >>connecting the "black-box" to the existing cables. >> > >Agreed. Or given the capacity of modern (ish) IDE/SCSI drives versus old >hardware, being able to host several virtual drives on one physical one >would be interesting, not waste drive space, and make it trivial to back >systems up. > >Several machines' drive controllers could be interfaced across a network >to one host. The "black-boxes" would talk ST506 on one side and ethernet >on the other, say. > >Interesting idea anyway... but given the nature of ST506 is it feasible? >Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight >relationship to the host controller with which the drive was formatted? > >cheers > >Jules > From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 1 12:45:12 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070300336.24831.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 1 Dec 2003, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 16:32, Andreas Holz wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > I would like to see a substitution of the now rapidly dying > > MFM/SMD-disks. I would appreciate if I could swap out a defective > > Maxtor-XT/ drive, and an IDE-drive into my Symbolics or PDP simply by > > connecting the "black-box" to the existing cables. > > Agreed. Or given the capacity of modern (ish) IDE/SCSI drives versus old > hardware, being able to host several virtual drives on one physical one > would be interesting, not waste drive space, and make it trivial to back > systems up. > > Several machines' drive controllers could be interfaced across a network > to one host. The "black-boxes" would talk ST506 on one side and ethernet > on the other, say. > > Interesting idea anyway... but given the nature of ST506 is it feasible? > Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight > relationship to the host controller with which the drive was formatted? No, there are no analog elements other than timing, and that can be simulated digitally with sufficient resolution to fool the controller. MFM drives and many earlier types should be pretty easy to emulate. Think of the emulator (one track at a time) as just a big shift register clocked at ~16X the drive data rate... > > cheers > > Jules > Peter Wallace From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 1 12:49:20 2003 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: finds from TRW Swapmeet (AKA Northrup Grumman swap meet) today Message-ID: <3FCB8D30.74552796@msm.umr.edu> I found a device called a Micro Lab I. It camed with a TI 9900 card and a 6802 card. It is dated 1979 from looking at the date codes on the parts. It fired up and ran perfectly. Anyone have any experience on this unit? I found a 2 high VME board with a TRW RH32 processor on it. A quick search ofGoogle showed that this has a redhat port and is a Raiation hardened 32 bit RISC processor made by TRW and Honeywell. The chipset has a CPU-1 CPU-2 MPU-1 MPU-2 and SCU-2 plus two ORCA asics. I don't know if it is dual cpu, fault tolarant (dual cpus for redundant function), or a single cpu set with two large cpu LSI chips making up a single processor. Jim From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Mon Dec 1 12:47:08 2003 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Why one should never give an interview References: Message-ID: <008201c3b83c$bd225c00$b0444ed5@geoff> Reminds me of the old MAD magazine flyposter :- " WE sell 11 foot poles for people you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole " Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:13 AM Subject: Why one should never give an interview > > Ok, more fuel to add to the discussion about reporters being complete > idiots. > > I did an interview recently for a local paper. The writer seemed very > bright and asked good questions. The article came out today. I was > impressed with the technical accuracy. However, there was one MAJOR > problem: the article said that I sold recycled computers to the Alameda > County Computer Resource Center. Now, this may at first seem like a minor > error, but it's huge. > > First of all, under agreement with the ACCRC, I act as a drop-off center > for computer and electronic recycling. All items dropped off at my > facility are in fact donations to the ACCRC, and donation receipts are > given for income tax deductions. Second, the computers and electronics > collected are then delivered to the ACCRC where they then refurbish and > distribute the computers they receive as an officially registered > 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. To say that I sell computers to > the ACCRC makes it seem like I am engaged in fraud. So now people who > read this article and have or were considering donating items through my > service to the ACCRC will think I am in fact fraudulently collecting > computers to resell to a non-profit. Nice. > > In short, I have been libeled is a seriously egregious fashion. So much > for the free publicity I was hoping for. I'll have to wait until tomorrow > (Monday) to see what the paper intends to do to rectify the situation. > If they don't play by my rules then I'm getting an attorney. > > This incident may well be the final straw. From now on I'm now > considering telling any reporter that comes within 10 feet of me to fuck > off. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 2 13:09:50 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 In-Reply-To: <005201c3b837$9aa7b4e0$0b01a8c0@hfghf> Message-ID: Hi, MPF BASIC starts at $0800 assuming you have the BASIC ROM installed...... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Luigi Serrantoni > Sent: 01 December 2003 18:19 > To: alberto@a2sistemi.it; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 4:22 PM > Subject: RE: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 > > > > > I've a multitech microprofessor MPF-1 > > > I've found on the lee davison site the basic eprom and i've > > > downloaded/programmed an eprom/installed on my MPF-1 > > > but i don't know the starting address from where to start the > basic :-( > > > of course i tried from the beginning of the eprom but without success > > > anyone have idea of wich is the starting address? or have any > > > manual/magazine article about this MPF basic? > > > > You can try to find a DI (disable interrupts) instruction : > normally code > > start with it. > > > > Alberto > > Bye Alberto, you are here too !!?!?! > Thanks a lot for your suggestion > I tried all the DI address as starting address but unfortunally > none of them > start the basic > but I've found an address that starts a digital watch! funny! > anyway thank a lot! > bye > Luigi > From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Mon Dec 1 13:16:59 2003 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: IEZ11 driver source Message-ID: <200312011916.hB1JGxqm026293@caip.rutgers.edu> Does anyone have the source for the IEZ11 (that's the IOTech 488/D interface) driver??? I'd like to figure out the SCSI commands for this beast and even the manufacturer (Iotech) doesn't have any documentation on it. Thanks for any help, commiseration, etc. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 2 13:30:06 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! Message-ID: Hi folks, Whilst getting an old Videomaster pong ready for sale (even though I know nobody will buy it) I discovered it still had its batteries in from the last time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd naturally leaked all over the place. I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this stuff without scratching the plastic too much? cheers, -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From aek at spies.com Mon Dec 1 14:34:16 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312012034.hB1KYGP3007865@spies.com> > Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight relationship to the host controller with which the drive was formatted? -- With the exception of SMD and ESDI, most small disc interfaces used an analog PLL data separator for read data for the drives. There was a LOT of variation in sector encoding formats (differing ECC schemes, RLL data encoding, etc.) Another problem to consider is how to map sector lengths that aren't 512 bytes onto modern discs. From vrs at msn.com Mon Dec 1 14:34:27 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: According to my "Cables Handbook", the BC08B has on M904 on both ends. The BC08D Has an M904 on one end, but two W011 on the other. Hope that helps :-). Vince ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables > I'm looking for several sets (5 in each set) of PDP-8 NEGIBUS cables. > The cable # is BC08D. > > Can anyone tell me the difference between a BC08D and a BC08B (POSIBUS > cable)? > > I'd hate to do it (lots-o-work) but if I could get a hold of one cable I > could replicate as many as I need. > > Thanks. > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Dec 1 14:38:27 2003 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: [rescue] Decserver 200/MC as console switch? In-Reply-To: <1070069846.3574.22.camel@thor> References: <1070069846.3574.22.camel@thor> Message-ID: <1070311107.14665.185.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> I want to thank everyone who sent me information on getting this to work! Its working like a charm and I've only burnt myself a couple of times while making null modems! :) Thanks everyone! Brian On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 20:37, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I've got a decserver 200/mc and I've managed to get the terminal server > software to load. > > What I'd like to do is set it up so I can hang my various unix boxes off > of it and use the console port on the terminal server to switch between > them. [think: serial kvm] > > I know I'm going to need a pile of null-modems, but I have no idea how > to configure the server to do what I want. The documentation I've come > across seems to indicate that this is possible. > > Anyone have any documentation on how I'd set this up? I don't need LAT, > so that's not really an issue. > > [of course, if anyone has a newer terminal server that'll do this that > they're willing to part with for postage, I'd not turn it down :) ] > > Brian Wheeler > bdwheele@indiana.edu > _______________________________________________ > rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 15:36:33 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "leaky batteries!" (Dec 2, 19:30) References: Message-ID: <10312012136.ZM5958@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 2, 19:30, Witchy wrote: > Whilst getting an old Videomaster pong ready for sale (even though I know > nobody will buy it) I discovered it still had its batteries in from the last > time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd > naturally leaked all over the place. > > I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely > brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this > stuff without scratching the plastic too much? I guess it depends on what the brown stuff is, and where it is. On the case? You could try soaking it in something mildly alkaline, like washing soda, or in sugar soap solution, and see if it softens it. Is this a deposit on the surface, or has it combined with the plastic? So long as it's not actually reacted with the plastic, I find Flash is pretty good. A small bucket of hot water with a dollop of Flash, and a cloth, is my weapon of choice for cables and metal/plastic cases. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From sieler at allegro.com Mon Dec 1 13:47:29 2003 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Looking for Infotek AD 200 board for an HP 9000/300 Message-ID: <200312011947.hB1JlTQ10356@opus.allegro.com> Hi, Peter (see below) is looking for an Infotek AD 200 board for an HP 9000/300. Reply to him, not me, if you can help. thanks! Forwarded message: > From peter.hagberg@kodak.com Mon Dec 1 11:06:44 2003 > From: peter.hagberg@kodak.com > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:06:34 -0500 > > I am looking for an Infotek AD 200 board for an HP 9000/300. Can you help ? > > > Peter T. Hagberg > Ag XRF/HPLC Bld.59 > Analytical Technology Division > Eastman Kodak Research Labs > Phone 585-477-3649 > Email (Work)- Peter.Hagberg@Kodak.com -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From mark.morse at kodak.com Mon Dec 1 14:53:28 2003 From: mark.morse at kodak.com (mark.morse@kodak.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Infortek AD200. Message-ID: Joe, I ran across a discussion string you had earlier this year about an Infotek AD200 board in an HP9000/300.? We are looking for one of these boards.? Do you know where we could find one?? Thanks. Mark Morse X-ray Spectroscopy / Neutron Activation Laboratories Analytical Technology Division Kodak Research Labs phone: 585-722-3353 e-mail: mark.morse@kodak.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 15:44:50 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: reply-to Message-ID: <10312012144.ZM5970@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> For a little while, I've been mildly surprised to see that when I reply to posts, I end up generating a reply to both the list and the original poster. This evening I realised (yes, I'm slow :-) It's the cold weather :-)) that the Reply-To: header inserted by the list software has been changed to include both. Is this deliberate? Did I miss a discussion somewhere? Am I opening an old can of worms by even mentioning it? ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 1 16:15:45 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312012034.hB1KYGP3007865@spies.com> References: <200312012034.hB1KYGP3007865@spies.com> Message-ID: <1070316422.24831.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 20:34, Al Kossow wrote: > With the exception of SMD and ESDI, most small disc interfaces used an > analog PLL data separator for read data for the drives. There was a LOT > of variation in sector encoding formats (differing ECC schemes, RLL data > encoding, etc.) Hmm. Non-trivial then! :/ > Another problem to consider is how to map sector lengths that aren't > 512 bytes onto modern discs. Probably not so much of an issue given the speed of old hardware against modern stuff - multiple sectors could be combined in software on the modern hardware to represent a single 'unusual' sized sector on the original equipment at a rate faster than the original host could process it anyway. cheers Jules From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Dec 1 16:06:55 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:34:27PM -0800, vrs wrote: > According to my "Cables Handbook", the BC08B has on M904 on both ends. The > BC08D Has an M904 on one end, but two W011 on the other. Hope that helps > :-). That should help a lot - the older stuff (like the DF-32 w/R-series logic) is going to have single-sided backplane slots. I don't have any of the "newfangled" stuff with M904 connectors... all of my negibus stuff has W011 on both ends (and it takes quite a few of those cables to hook things together!) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Dec-2003 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -23.4 F (-30.8 C) Windchill -51.1 F (-46.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.9 kts Grid 079 Barometer 698.2 mb (9947.5 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cheri-post at web.de Mon Dec 1 16:12:48 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50 Message-ID: <200312012212.hB1MCmQ04839@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Hi all, I could use some help on setting up a KDA50-Controller in a VAX 4000/200 as I'm interested in connecting a RA-92 to it (the VAX has no drives installed so far!) so that NetBSD or VMS can run on it. The backplane contains the KA-660 Board with extra Memory (MS650), a KLESI- and a KFQSA-Controller (DSSI), respectively. Typing "config" in the Console-Mode gives out the adress fopr the SDI-Controller, if I type in KLESI, KFQSA and KDA50. I installed the controller directly behind the KFQSA-Board with the address given by config. When I type "show qbus" after powering on the Vax, the KDA50 isn't diplayed. Doing the same routine described above without the KLESI- and KFQSA-Controller brings no result. Can the KDA50 be noticed by the "show qbus" command ? The cycling pattern described in the user guide appears every 4 seconds, that's why I think that the boards work properly. How do I know that the VAX found the KDA50 ? Any hints or ideas? Thanks alot for your help in advance Pierre ______________________________________________________________________________ WEB.DE FreeMail wird 5 Jahre jung! Feiern Sie mit uns und nutzen Sie die neuen Funktionen http://f.web.de/features/?mc=021130 From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 1 16:17:14 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! References: Message-ID: <3FCBBDEA.3E89692F@rain.org> I use Muriatic Acid for cleaning (alkaline) battery residue ... a drop at a time :). It works wonders on cleaning most of the residue. Try a drop and see if you get a good foam reaction. If so, then it will most likely do the job. In any case, it shouldn't hurt the plastic. For quite a while, I had a small bottle of Acid Flux that was basically Muriatic Acid, and it worked like a charm. Witchy wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Whilst getting an old Videomaster pong ready for sale (even though I know > nobody will buy it) I discovered it still had its batteries in from the last > time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd > naturally leaked all over the place. > > I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely > brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this > stuff without scratching the plastic too much? > > cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum > www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From cukr at massnet1.net Mon Dec 1 16:25:00 2003 From: cukr at massnet1.net (Mike Cukr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0> Message-ID: <001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0> > > I take that back. Looking more closely, the return for that circuit is > to -15, not ground. That puts it squarely at 100ma in both cases, which is > more than my circuit can do (50ma). > > Vince > > Sorry about the delay...I'm afraid its 100ma, apparently there is a R/C network across the relay, I go a reading of 196 ohms (close enough to 200 ohms to call it that). This may be a 'fast acting' relay of higher ohmage, but the circuit might be designed for a worst case of character by character control. I'm afraid it's back to the drawing board..... Mike From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 1 16:24:14 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: reply-to In-Reply-To: <10312012144.ZM5970@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10312012144.ZM5970@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200312012225.RAA12960@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For a little while, I've been mildly surprised to see that when I > reply to posts, I end up generating a reply to both the list and the > original poster. This evening I realised (yes, I'm slow :-) It's the > cold weather :-)) that the Reply-To: header inserted by the list > software has been changed to include both. That's news to me. Here's the Reply-To: I see on your message: > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Something else must be responsible. Maybe something is mangling the Reply-To: on its way to you, or maybe your user agent is sending to the From: address as well as the Reply-To: address.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Sharp51482 at aol.com Mon Dec 1 16:29:19 2003 From: Sharp51482 at aol.com (Sharp51482@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Displaywriter Printer. . . Message-ID: <1a8.1cfbbd67.2cfd1abf@aol.com> Just to add a little more info, When I returned to work today I got the exact model of my printer, its a 5218 A02. And it does not have any connection on the back for the feeder or tractor unit as described in the service manuals. It would appear that you would have to add some sort of wire harness assm.??? Any help is appreciated. I am having no luck tracking down a cut sheet feeder. Thanks! Blu From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Dec 1 16:38:51 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4594315a4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message "Witchy" wrote: > time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd > naturally leaked all over the place. Ugh! Nasty :-/ > I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely > brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this > stuff without scratching the plastic too much? You could try using a bit of white vinegar, followed by isopropyl alcohol (90% or better preferably). The idea is, the vinegar should neutralise the gunk and hopefully loosen it a bit. The IPA removes any residue from the vinegar, along with the remains of the battery electrolyte. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, Ethernet (Acorn AEH62), http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 8xCD, framegrabber, Teletext Strike any user when ready. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Dec 1 16:54:39 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! Message-ID: <200312012254.OAA01530@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Neutralizing depends on the type of battery. If nothing else gets rid of the stain, try some bleach. Experiment a little in a hidden area first. Dwight >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >> time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd >> naturally leaked all over the place. >Ugh! Nasty :-/ > >> I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely >> brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this >> stuff without scratching the plastic too much? >You could try using a bit of white vinegar, followed by isopropyl alcohol >(90% or better preferably). The idea is, the vinegar should neutralise the >gunk and hopefully loosen it a bit. The IPA removes any residue from the >vinegar, along with the remains of the battery electrolyte. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, Ethernet (Acorn AEH62), >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 8xCD, framegrabber, Teletext >Strike any user when ready. > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Dec 1 16:54:39 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! Message-ID: <200312012254.OAA01530@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Neutralizing depends on the type of battery. If nothing else gets rid of the stain, try some bleach. Experiment a little in a hidden area first. Dwight >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >> time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd >> naturally leaked all over the place. >Ugh! Nasty :-/ > >> I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely >> brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this >> stuff without scratching the plastic too much? >You could try using a bit of white vinegar, followed by isopropyl alcohol >(90% or better preferably). The idea is, the vinegar should neutralise the >gunk and hopefully loosen it a bit. The IPA removes any residue from the >vinegar, along with the remains of the battery electrolyte. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, Ethernet (Acorn AEH62), >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 8xCD, framegrabber, Teletext >Strike any user when ready. > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 17:11:30 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Marvin Johnston "Re: leaky batteries!" (Dec 1, 14:17) References: <3FCBBDEA.3E89692F@rain.org> Message-ID: <10312012311.ZM6068@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 14:17, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I use Muriatic Acid for cleaning (alkaline) battery residue ... a drop > at a time :). It works wonders on cleaning most of the residue. Try a > drop and see if you get a good foam reaction. If so, then it will most > likely do the job. In any case, it shouldn't hurt the plastic. I've never tried that, but it would seem logical. I wondered what the brown stuff really is, hence my suggestion to try a mild alkali (good for organic junk, like cardboard-in-battery-goo). Muriatic acid, by the way, is hydrochloric acid. Used for cleaning paving slabs, concrete, etc, amongst other things. > For quite a while, I had a small bottle of Acid Flux that was basically > Muriatic Acid, and it worked like a charm. Actually, it was probably mostly zinc chloride, made by dissoving granular zinc (or old battery cases) in hydrochloric acid. Known here as Bakers Fluid. The raw acid would be too strong, and lose its efficacy too quickly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 17:22:18 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: reply-to In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: reply-to" (Dec 1, 17:24) References: <10312012144.ZM5970@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200312012225.RAA12960@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10312012322.ZM6073@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 17:24, der Mouse wrote: > > For a little while, I've been mildly surprised to see that when I > > reply to posts, I end up generating a reply to both the list and the > > original poster. This evening I realised (yes, I'm slow :-) It's the > > cold weather :-)) that the Reply-To: header inserted by the list > > software has been changed to include both. > > That's news to me. Here's the Reply-To: I see on your message: Yes, that's the odd thing -- it's not *all* messages. My reply to Witchy earlier showed the symptom, because Witchy's message had both addresses in the Reply-To:. Yours, however, doesn't, and mine didn't. A few others I've replied to also had two addresses, but most seem just to have the list address. I wonder if some people are mailing the list with a Reply-To: already set, and the new version of mailman is adding to it instead of replacing it? Witchy? Did your message have a Reply-To: when you sent it? > Something else must be responsible. Maybe something is mangling the > Reply-To: on its way to you, or maybe your user agent is sending to the > From: address as well as the Reply-To: address.... No, it's the Reply-To: header, and not mangled by anything here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at rothfus.com Mon Dec 1 18:24:52 2003 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312012034.hB1KYGP3007865@spies.com> (message from Al Kossow on Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:34:16 -0800) References: <200312012034.hB1KYGP3007865@spies.com> Message-ID: <1070314366@rothfus.com> In my little corner of the world, I've built an emulator for the TRS-80 drives that does FM/MFM (SD/DD). It connects straight to the TRS-80 floppy cable and looks like a floppy to the TRS-80. It is loaded from the PC with an RS232 connection and a floppy image in DMK/JV1/3 formats. The PC software is smart enough to allow you to download a single file to the emulator by automagically wrapping the file in an appropriate OS. All of the old TRS-80 OS's are supported, and CP/M is in the works. It works with the Model I & III/IV now. I'm adding to the firmware to do hard sectors so I can boot my H8 from it. Over time I want the box to be able to boot many of the old machines. Next on the list after the H8 (which really covers many machines) is the Apple ][. I've got the plans up on the web at www.rothfus.com/SVD. Note, though, that the latest and greatest (including DD) isn't up there yet. Hopefully over Christmas I'll get the new stuff up there. Eric From cukr at massnet1.net Mon Dec 1 17:25:35 2003 From: cukr at massnet1.net (Mike Cukr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? References: <200312012034.hB1KYGP3007865@spies.com> Message-ID: <005101c3b862$6d3065e0$5265ead8@d2e2y0> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? > > > > Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight > relationship to the host controller with which the drive was formatted? > > -- > > With the exception of SMD and ESDI, most small disc interfaces used an > analog PLL data separator for read data for the drives. There was a LOT > of variation in sector encoding formats (differing ECC schemes, RLL data > encoding, etc.) > > Another problem to consider is how to map sector lengths that aren't > 512 bytes onto modern discs. > > I guess my first question is why use rotating storage? I've been thinking about this for a while...What I envision is a 'black box' that emulates the hardware device ex[ected by the host controller. It would have its own processor to emulate the target hardware and uses a flash memory card(s) for the actual storage media. This would have several advantages over using rotating media: 1. By changing the I/O card (has the proper connectors, signals, and temimnations as the original device) and a eprom any device could be emulated. 2. Changing OSs would simply be a matter of shutting down the host system and changing the flash memory card with one containing the new OS and rebooting the host. 3. One could use existing PC type hardware to load/backup the flash cards at will. 4. The most important advantage is that NO modification of the host system would be required. Let's face it, given the current trends, two years from now smallest HDs are going to 200GB. It would be kind of silly to use a drive of that size to emulate a set of RK-05s... Just some thoughts Mike From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 1 17:28:17 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! References: <3FCBBDEA.3E89692F@rain.org> <10312012311.ZM6068@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3FCBCE91.97E1461E@rain.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > For quite a while, I had a small bottle of Acid Flux that was > basically > > Muriatic Acid, and it worked like a charm. > > Actually, it was probably mostly zinc chloride, made by dissoving > granular zinc (or old battery cases) in hydrochloric acid. Known here > as Bakers Fluid. The raw acid would be too strong, and lose its > efficacy too quickly. No, it was Muriatic Acid according to the label. I went looking for it after I ran out (it lasted about 10 years) and when I couldn't find it, I bought the Muriatic Acid. My understanding is that Muriatic Acid is 33% strength Hydrochloric Acid. I used quite a bit of it for cleaning tin-lead plating when I still owned the printed circuit shop. To head off comments I've heard before, tin-lead gets plated (NOT solder), and the tin-lead later in the process gets fused to form the solder alloy. From tmm at 8191.net Mon Dec 1 16:48:12 2003 From: tmm at 8191.net (Tim Mathews) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Orig. PC BIOS code Message-ID: <200312011748.12916.tmm@8191.net> Steve, I was looking around online for examples of BIOS code and came across your email from March of this year saying you have a copy of the PC BIOS source. I'd appreciate it if you could send me a copy. r/ Tim From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 17:34:18 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: what is the next step? Message-ID: woot! I just got my associate ID from encompass... does this mean I can legally run VMS for fun? yay! What's next. The message said "in a few days I would have access to the license" I suppose I ought to get downloading simh/VAX huh? Ron. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Dec 1 17:37:43 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50 In-Reply-To: <200312012212.hB1MCmQ04839@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <001601c3b864$1e5f7a80$5b01a8c0@athlon> > VMS can run on it. The backplane contains the KA-660 Board > with extra Memory (MS650), a KLESI- and a KFQSA-Controller > (DSSI), respectively. Typing "config" in the Console-Mode > gives out the adress fopr the SDI-Controller, if I type in > KLESI, KFQSA and KDA50. I installed the controller directly > behind the KFQSA-Board with the address given by config. It's been a while now but I'm pretty sure that the KFQSA pretends to be an MSCP device for each disk it has been configured to recognise. So if you have configured your KFQSA for two disks, it behaves as two KDA50s. The exact addresses of these depend on how the KFQSA was configured. With your KLESI and KFQSA in the box, try a SHOW QBUS command. I *think* the KLESI "lives" somewhere else in the address space so it won't interfere. So you should see your KFQSA appear once per configured disk. It's quite likely (if things were working in this config) that it will be occupying the first two MSCP disk device addresses. In which case you set the switches on your KDA50 to be the third such device. > Can the KDA50 be noticed by the "show qbus" command ? Yes, definitely. With the post-MicroVAX II systems, it's one of the quick ways to see if the KDA50 works at all. It's probably being masked by the KFQSA. > The cycling pattern described in the user guide appears every > 4 seconds, that's why I think that the boards work properly. > How do I know that the VAX found the KDA50 ? Head over to http://vt100.net/manx and search for KFQSA and then KDA50. You should be able to pick up scanned installation manuals for both the KDA50 and the KFQSA. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 1 17:27:30 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:34 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070300336.24831.14.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 1, 3 05:38:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031201/ae71d27b/attachment.ksh From vrs at msn.com Mon Dec 1 17:40:26 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0> <001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0> Message-ID: > Sorry about the delay...I'm afraid its 100ma, apparently there is > a R/C network across the relay, I go a reading of 196 ohms > (close enough to 200 ohms to call it that). This may be a > 'fast acting' relay of higher ohmage, but the circuit might be > designed for a worst case of character by character control. > > I'm afraid it's back to the drawing board..... That is just weird. According to my calculations, DEC's circuit applies 15.7V across this relay and it's series resistor, with at most 57ma before the components exceed their ratings. 15V/200 ohms = 75ma, so the circuit can't work like that I was expecting *at least* 300 ohms for the relay and it's series resistor. Did you measure at the relay, or at the cable? Assuming what you say is true, the 0.7V supply will be drug below ground, and the whole circuit will draw 20V/350 ohms = 57.1ma. That puts the components right at their operational limits, but might actually be the way things work. Vince From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 1 17:45:40 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: <20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1070322340.23648.6.camel@nazgul.pao.digeo.com> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 14:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:34:27PM -0800, vrs wrote: > > According to my "Cables Handbook", the BC08B has on M904 on both ends. The > > BC08D Has an M904 on one end, but two W011 on the other. Hope that helps > > :-). > > That should help a lot - the older stuff (like the DF-32 w/R-series logic) > is going to have single-sided backplane slots. I don't have any of the > "newfangled" stuff with M904 connectors... all of my negibus stuff has > W011 on both ends (and it takes quite a few of those cables to hook things > together!) OK. I'm trying to figure out how to cable some equipment up and I had (erroneously) thought that the cabling between POSIBUS and NEGIBUS was the same. For reference I'm trying to hook up the following: PDP-8/I DM01 TC01 FPP12 I can make the 8/I either POSIBUS or NEGIBUS (but right now it's NEGIBUS). The FPP12 can go either way too. The DM01 and TC01 are definitely NEGIBUS (but I guess I'll have to actually verify that too). I'll have to actually see what cables everything wants/needs because the documentation for the TC01 seems to indicate 5 cables between the devices (M904's?). -- TTFN - Guy From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 1 18:03:52 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: reply-to In-Reply-To: <10312012144.ZM5970@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Pete Turnbull wrote: > For a little while, I've been mildly surprised to see that when I reply > to posts, I end up generating a reply to both the list and the original > poster. This evening I realised (yes, I'm slow :-) It's the cold > weather :-)) that the Reply-To: header inserted by the list software > has been changed to include both. Is this deliberate? Did I miss a > discussion somewhere? Am I opening an old can of worms by even > mentioning it? ;-) I've noticed some messages I've replied to are like this as well, though not all. For instance, this one wasn't. Whenever I reply to one of Witchy's messages then it behaves as you describe. Witchy, what are you doing to your headers, young man? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 18:06:34 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Ron Hudson wrote: > woot! I just got my associate ID from encompass... does this mean I can > legally run VMS for fun? yay! Yay! > What's next. The message said "in a few days I would have access to the > license" Yeah, it takes a while before membership info drips through into the Montagar systems, hence the wait. > I suppose I ought to get downloading simh/VAX huh? Yep. That, and any media if you need them. Then prepare for a short registration process at the Montagar website, which will then e-mail you your OpenVMS License PAK sets. This includes a license for both the operating system *and* a large selection of layered products. [damn, that sounded like a salez pitch, no?] Have fun! :) --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 18:10:54 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50 In-Reply-To: <001601c3b864$1e5f7a80$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > gives out the adress fopr the SDI-Controller, if I type in > > KLESI, KFQSA and KDA50. I installed the controller directly > > behind the KFQSA-Board with the address given by config. > > It's been a while now but I'm pretty sure that the KFQSA > pretends to be an MSCP device for each disk it has been > configured to recognise. So if you have configured your > KFQSA for two disks, it behaves as two KDA50s. The > exact addresses of these depend on how the KFQSA was > configured. Yes, a KFQSA controller creates up to three MSCP controllers; one for each device connected (in my VAX 4705A, which only HAS three drives.. it may support the full 7 drives..) So, if you have a KDA50 as well, that could create up to 4 of em. Make sure the one you want to *boot* from is the one at the MSCP default (17772150 comes to mind?) address. > Yes, definitely. With the post-MicroVAX II systems, it's > one of the quick ways to see if the KDA50 works at all. > It's probably being masked by the KFQSA. The KDA probably sits at the default address, with the KFQSA also using that address, indeed. Most KFQSA's are configured to allocate as many controllers as needed, with the first one sitting at the MSCP-default address, soo.. Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Dec 1 18:12:09 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 16:32, Andreas Holz wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I would like to see a substitution of the now rapidly dying > > > MFM/SMD-disks. I would appreciate if I could swap out a defective > > > Maxtor-XT/ drive, and an IDE-drive into my Symbolics or PDP simply by > > > connecting the "black-box" to the existing cables. > > > > Agreed. Or given the capacity of modern (ish) IDE/SCSI drives versus old > > hardware, being able to host several virtual drives on one physical one > > would be interesting, not waste drive space, and make it trivial to back > > systems up. > > > > Several machines' drive controllers could be interfaced across a network > > to one host. The "black-boxes" would talk ST506 on one side and ethernet > > on the other, say. > > I'd rather have one interface/drive per system. It could probably fit in > place of the existing drive (certainly on machines like the PERQ where > there's plenty of space round the hard disk), and would mean the machine > stays self-contained. > > > > > Interesting idea anyway... but given the nature of ST506 is it feasible? > > Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight > > All the signals on the interface connectors are digital, but the data is > the 'raw' data from the head, not packed into nice sectors and bytes > (doing that is the job of the controller). So the timing is, to some > extent, analogue. > > However, suppose the data rate is something like 5MHz (I think that's > right for ST506). If you sampled the data output from the controller at, > say, 50MHz, wrote the pattern of 0's and 1's to the new hard disk (OK, > very wasteful of disk space, but then we're proposing replacing a 20Mbyte > sisk with a 20Gbyte one or something :-)), and then turned the data on > the new disk back into a 50MHz signal that you fed back to the > controller, I think it would work. Might be interesting to try, anyway... This is what I was trying to suggest, with the added feature of slight data compression by counting the clocks between data transitions, that way a 16X clock (80 MHz for MFM data recording) doesn't use 16 bits per data bit, only 4... > > -tony > Peter Wallace From jontitus at comcast.net Mon Dec 1 18:32:05 2003 From: jontitus at comcast.net (Jon Titus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Why one should never give an interview Message-ID: <200312020041.hB20fbVo093651@huey.classiccmp.org> I sympathize with people who get misquoted and who find incorrect things attributed to them or associated with them. If someone approached you about an interview, as a condition for the interview, always insist on: 1. Reviewing direct quotes such as, Fred Smith says, "Computers made before 1981..." 2. Reviewing indirect quotes such as, According to Fred Smith, computers made before 1981... 3. Any reference to you or your company, organization, etc. If a writer or reporter won't give you the opportunity to review what he or she intends to put into print, decline the interview request. If you go ahead with an interview, insist on taping it for your protection. If your company has a person in a marketing-communication or public-relations role, insist they sit in on the interview to help protect you from misquotes or misunderstood information. Maybe a reporter from the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal won't let you see a story before it goes into print. OK, don't talk with them. Recently, the WSJ did a terrible job of relating information provided in an interview by Warren Buffett, the investor. Buffett wrote to say the article missed the point of his concerns, but the WSJ defended it's incorrect interpretation of the information he provided. Several readers also wrote about the awful job the WSJ reporter did. I trust journalists less and less, and I trust TV journalists not at all. Jon Jon Titus 36 Sunset Drive Milford, MA 01757-1362 USA +1-508-478-8040 jontitus@comcast.net Member: National Association of Science Writers From cukr at massnet1.net Mon Dec 1 19:09:14 2003 From: cukr at massnet1.net (Mike Cukr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0><001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0> Message-ID: <000801c3b870$e7e68cc0$5265ead8@d2e2y0> ----- Original Message ----- From: "vrs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 6:40 PM Subject: Re: W076/M452 replacement cards > > Sorry about the delay...I'm afraid its 100ma, apparently there is > > a R/C network across the relay, I go a reading of 196 ohms > > (close enough to 200 ohms to call it that). This may be a > > 'fast acting' relay of higher ohmage, but the circuit might be > > designed for a worst case of character by character control. > > > > I'm afraid it's back to the drawing board..... > > That is just weird. According to my calculations, DEC's circuit applies > 15.7V across this relay and it's series resistor, with at most 57ma before > the components exceed their ratings. 15V/200 ohms = 75ma, so the circuit > can't work like that > > I was expecting *at least* 300 ohms for the relay and it's series resistor. > Did you measure at the relay, or at the cable? > > Assuming what you say is true, the 0.7V supply will be drug below ground, > and the whole circuit will draw 20V/350 ohms = 57.1ma. That puts the > components right at their operational limits, but might actually be the way > things work. > > Vince > I measured at the cable. I acted like there is a R/C network across the relay, that is the reading went up over several seconds to just under 200 ohms. It appears that there may not be just a simple relay. Mike From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 19:12:14 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: reply-to In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: reply-to" (Dec 1, 16:03) References: Message-ID: <10312020112.ZM6171@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 16:03, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > For a little while, I've been mildly surprised to see that when I reply > > to posts, I end up generating a reply to both the list and the original > > poster. > I've noticed some messages I've replied to are like this as well, though > not all. For instance, this one wasn't. Whenever I reply to one of > Witchy's messages then it behaves as you describe. Witchy, what are you > doing to your headers, young man? :-) Dwight's are like that too. I've set a Reply-To: in this message to see if that's what's doing it... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vrs at msn.com Mon Dec 1 19:41:50 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0><001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0> <000801c3b870$e7e68cc0$5265ead8@d2e2y0> Message-ID: > I measured at the cable. I acted like there is a R/C network across the > relay, > that is the reading went up over several seconds to just under 200 ohms. It > appears that there may not be just a simple relay. Hmm. I am going by "Figure 5-7 Teletype Connections", which led me to expect Relay+ to be connected to the relay, and to the cathode of a diode. I expected Relay- to be connected to the anode, and also to a resistor, which connects to the other side of the relay. It shows a capacitor across the relay contacts, which also connect to the local switch and the reader solenoid. I don't suppose I could prevail upon you to trace the connections/schematic for me? Thanks! Vince From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 19:44:11 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Marvin Johnston "Re: leaky batteries!" (Dec 1, 15:28) References: <3FCBBDEA.3E89692F@rain.org> <10312012311.ZM6068@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3FCBCE91.97E1461E@rain.org> Message-ID: <10312020144.ZM6180@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 15:28, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > > For quite a while, I had a small bottle of Acid Flux that was > > basically > > > Muriatic Acid, and it worked like a charm. > > > > Actually, it was probably mostly zinc chloride, made by dissoving > > granular zinc (or old battery cases) in hydrochloric acid. Known here > > as Bakers Fluid. The raw acid would be too strong, and lose its > > efficacy too quickly. > > No, it was Muriatic Acid according to the label. I went looking for it > after I ran out (it lasted about 10 years) and when I couldn't find it, > I bought the Muriatic Acid. I'm surprised -- but I'm sure you're right. > My understanding is that Muriatic Acid is > 33% strength Hydrochloric Acid. Sounds about right. Concentrated pure hydrochloric acid is about 36% w/v; left exposed to air it fumes and gradually loses HCl; common concentrated acid is 32%-33%. Muriatic acid is a technical (well, industrial, really) grade and contains impurities as well as being subject to loss. Be careful with it; apart from its corrosive nature, you know you're not supposed to store it in proximity to certain other things, such as ammonia, bleach, etc? > I used quite a bit of it for cleaning > tin-lead plating when I still owned the printed circuit shop. To head > off comments I've heard before, tin-lead gets plated (NOT solder), and > the tin-lead later in the process gets fused to form the solder alloy. *I* won't argue with that description :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Dec 1 19:46:26 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: reply-to In-Reply-To: Pete Turnbull "Re: reply-to" (Dec 2, 1:12) References: <10312020112.ZM6171@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10312020146.ZM6210@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 2, 1:12, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I've set a Reply-To: in this message > to see if that's what's doing it... Looks like it is. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 1 20:16:20 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: OT: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP Message-ID: I have a friend who is a total Microsoft zealot. We repeatedly get into annoyingly incredibly pointless arguments over the virtues of Linux vs. Windows. I mean, I know people have religious OS wars all the time but he's so ignorant of the Linux world that it's stunning. I mean, the guy is the smartest person I know, but when it comes to this argument, he seems to argue for the sake of arguing because he has no real statistics to go off of and talks completely out of his ass, or he'll quote one article he read somewhere that said one thing (probably not even what he's arguing) to justify his position. For instance, he says PHP is full of holes and is not professional software because it's written by hobbyists on the side, the language is not clearly defined, and there's no support for it. He says the same about MySQL. In fact, this is where the argument tonight started. He had a web service that crashed because one of his MySQL tables got hosed, so he blamed all his woes on MySQL (he claims he had to use it because the programmer he had do the site only new PHP and not ASP which he would've preferred, claiming that ASP is much more robust, is much better defined, is way more powerful than PHP, etc., which may all be true but his criticisms about PHP and MySQL are so unfounded as to be obnoxious). When I mentioned that MySQL DOES have support (you pay for it just like you do when you buy MSSQL) he finds some other nit to pick, which I then shoot down, so he moves on to another, and another, and another, then starts throwing out dubious statistics, etc. So I know it's completely pointless, but I just want to throw some statistics from neutral quarters (i.e. not Linux Journal, but like Forbes, Fortune, Network Magazine, etc.) showing how many deployments of: 1) Apache running on Linux versus Apache on Windows 2) PHP on Apache vs. ASP on ISS 3) Linux servers vs. Windows servers 4) Growth rates, industry trends, etc. No matter what I tell him he thinks that there's no way that Linux is beating MS in any way, shape or form. As an aside, the extent to which he is completely lost is evident in this anecdote. He's complaining how people can't code in 64K anymore, and when I point out that this trend of bloat is pretty much directly attributable to MS with its programming paradigms and overall bloatiness, he shoots that down like I was Satan for even suggesting it. So anyway, I want charts, graphs, hard numbers, quotes, trends, etc. Any articles that can show the actual numbers of what's going on in the industry with regards to Linux vs. Windows. Simple URLs will do. Thanks for indulging this stupidity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Dec 1 20:23:02 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Misc for sale, not much money. References: Message-ID: <001201c3b87b$378977b0$0100a8c0@SONYDIGITALED> William what is the status on this modem did you get my previous message? ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:15 PM Subject: Misc for sale, not much money. > Clearing off the shelves a bit... > > 1) Cisco 72-0791-01 V.35 DTE cable - 6 feet or so, Cisco serial to V.35 > $2.00 > > 2) Box of Five 3M DC600A Cartridges, all new and still in plastic. > $2.00 (for the whole box) > > 3) Xilinx XACT 2000/3000 PGA Dev System Reference Guide, new, no disks. > $2.00 > > 4) CommShare 700M Acoustic Coupler, ancient, looks current loop > (thats Teletype, folks), looks complete but untested. > $5.00 > > 5) DEC G727A Bus Grant Continuity card. > $1.00 > > 6) Digital Research MP/M-86 Command Summary booklet, from 1982 > $2.00 > > First come first served, pretty much. Buyer pays S&H. If anyone wants a > box of DD 3.5 inch disks for free, I'll throw that in if you buy > something. I take Paypal (but DO NOT use this email address for the account). > > See, I said not much money. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 1 20:47:59 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: from "Ron Hudson" at Dec 01, 2003 05:34:18 PM Message-ID: <200312020247.hB22lxo0030084@onyx.spiritone.com> > woot! I just got my associate ID from encompass... does this mean I can > legally run VMS for fun? yay! > > What's next. The message said "in a few days I would have access to the > license" > > I suppose I ought to get downloading simh/VAX huh? You need VMS CD's, you can get the VAX Hobbyist CD from Montagar. Then you need the License PAK's that you get from them as well. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 1 20:53:01 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP References: Message-ID: <000501c3b87f$668f71a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam; I wrote a paper for management at one of my clients on exactly this topic, comparing FreeBSD, Linux, and Windows in one section. Another section compared Apache vs. IIS. The third section compared MySQL and MSSQL, and the final section compared ASP vs. PHP. Note - these comparisons were not in great technical detail, although there was a lot of technical meat there. The whole paper was focused strictly on scalability, performance, and reliability. This document was about 1/2 inch thick most of which was supporting material from third parties (ie. facts). This paper caused a company that grosses well into 8 digits and employs many hundreds of people, to get rid of Microsoft from the datacenter, AND from every persons desktop. I believe I have a copy of this paper still, and will forward it to you tomorrow when I get to the office if I can find it quickly before leaving from the NOC. However, I will give the link http://www.mysql.com/eweek/ as being most illustrative. Note that the link I gave IS on the Mysql website, but, after reading the synopsis there, note the link at the bottom of the page which shows the full details of the study, NOT done by mysql, but eweek. Also interesting to note... MSSQL leveled off while mysql and oracle were only half way through their performance curve. Mysql and Oracle had virtually identical performance curves, and those curves were WELL above the others (MSQL). So, given two almost identical performance curves... lets see.... MySQL - free. Oracle... HOW much per seat license??? *GRIN* Oh, and I'll also throw in here... the person who posted that I was selling FUD with regards to linux... I wholeheartedly disagree with his stance. I stand by my arguments and facts, but I'm not going to go back and forth about it on the list. I voiced my experience, nuff said :) Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: OT: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP > > I have a friend who is a total Microsoft zealot. We repeatedly get into > annoyingly incredibly pointless arguments over the virtues of Linux > vs. Windows. I mean, I know people have religious OS wars all the time > but he's so ignorant of the Linux world that it's stunning. I mean, the > guy is the smartest person I know, but when it comes to this argument, he > seems to argue for the sake of arguing because he has no real statistics > to go off of and talks completely out of his ass, or he'll quote one > article he read somewhere that said one thing (probably not even what he's > arguing) to justify his position. > > For instance, he says PHP is full of holes and is not professional > software because it's written by hobbyists on the side, the language is > not clearly defined, and there's no support for it. He says the same > about MySQL. In fact, this is where the argument tonight started. He had > a web service that crashed because one of his MySQL tables got hosed, so > he blamed all his woes on MySQL (he claims he had to use it because the > programmer he had do the site only new PHP and not ASP which he would've > preferred, claiming that ASP is much more robust, is much better defined, > is way more powerful than PHP, etc., which may all be true but his > criticisms about PHP and MySQL are so unfounded as to be obnoxious). When > I mentioned that MySQL DOES have support (you pay for it just like you do > when you buy MSSQL) he finds some other nit to pick, which I then shoot > down, so he moves on to another, and another, and another, then starts > throwing out dubious statistics, etc. > > So I know it's completely pointless, but I just want to throw some > statistics from neutral quarters (i.e. not Linux Journal, but like Forbes, > Fortune, Network Magazine, etc.) showing how many deployments of: > > 1) Apache running on Linux versus Apache on Windows > 2) PHP on Apache vs. ASP on ISS > 3) Linux servers vs. Windows servers > 4) Growth rates, industry trends, etc. > > No matter what I tell him he thinks that there's no way that Linux is > beating MS in any way, shape or form. > > As an aside, the extent to which he is completely lost is evident in this > anecdote. He's complaining how people can't code in 64K anymore, and when > I point out that this trend of bloat is pretty much directly attributable > to MS with its programming paradigms and overall bloatiness, he shoots > that down like I was Satan for even suggesting it. > > So anyway, I want charts, graphs, hard numbers, quotes, trends, etc. Any > articles that can show the actual numbers of what's going on in the > industry with regards to Linux vs. Windows. > > Simple URLs will do. > > Thanks for indulging this stupidity. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Mon Dec 1 21:05:10 2003 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Cogito Systems? Message-ID: <20031202030510.07038418FE@server1.messagingengine.com> Anyone here ever heard of a hard drive company called Cogito Systems? I had a 20 Mb (?) HD of theirs that I traded years ago, & I'm trying to dig up something about the company. -- David Vohs netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Dec 1 21:06:56 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP References: Message-ID: <004801c3b881$668d63e0$0100a8c0@SONYDIGITALED> it is easy it is simple.... brother bill for the desk top Linux for the server! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 7:16 PM Subject: OT: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP > > I have a friend who is a total Microsoft zealot. We repeatedly get into > annoyingly incredibly pointless arguments over the virtues of Linux > vs. Windows. I mean, I know people have religious OS wars all the time > but he's so ignorant of the Linux world that it's stunning. I mean, the > guy is the smartest person I know, but when it comes to this argument, he > seems to argue for the sake of arguing because he has no real statistics > to go off of and talks completely out of his ass, or he'll quote one > article he read somewhere that said one thing (probably not even what he's > arguing) to justify his position. > > For instance, he says PHP is full of holes and is not professional > software because it's written by hobbyists on the side, the language is > not clearly defined, and there's no support for it. He says the same > about MySQL. In fact, this is where the argument tonight started. He had > a web service that crashed because one of his MySQL tables got hosed, so > he blamed all his woes on MySQL (he claims he had to use it because the > programmer he had do the site only new PHP and not ASP which he would've > preferred, claiming that ASP is much more robust, is much better defined, > is way more powerful than PHP, etc., which may all be true but his > criticisms about PHP and MySQL are so unfounded as to be obnoxious). When > I mentioned that MySQL DOES have support (you pay for it just like you do > when you buy MSSQL) he finds some other nit to pick, which I then shoot > down, so he moves on to another, and another, and another, then starts > throwing out dubious statistics, etc. > > So I know it's completely pointless, but I just want to throw some > statistics from neutral quarters (i.e. not Linux Journal, but like Forbes, > Fortune, Network Magazine, etc.) showing how many deployments of: > > 1) Apache running on Linux versus Apache on Windows > 2) PHP on Apache vs. ASP on ISS > 3) Linux servers vs. Windows servers > 4) Growth rates, industry trends, etc. > > No matter what I tell him he thinks that there's no way that Linux is > beating MS in any way, shape or form. > > As an aside, the extent to which he is completely lost is evident in this > anecdote. He's complaining how people can't code in 64K anymore, and when > I point out that this trend of bloat is pretty much directly attributable > to MS with its programming paradigms and overall bloatiness, he shoots > that down like I was Satan for even suggesting it. > > So anyway, I want charts, graphs, hard numbers, quotes, trends, etc. Any > articles that can show the actual numbers of what's going on in the > industry with regards to Linux vs. Windows. > > Simple URLs will do. > > Thanks for indulging this stupidity. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 21:08:13 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <200312020247.hB22lxo0030084@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 08:47 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> woot! I just got my associate ID from encompass... does this mean I >> can >> legally run VMS for fun? yay! >> >> What's next. The message said "in a few days I would have access to >> the >> license" >> >> I suppose I ought to get downloading simh/VAX huh? > > You need VMS CD's, you can get the VAX Hobbyist CD from Montagar. > Then you > need the License PAK's that you get from them as well. Could I get these more cheaply online somewhere. I am currently uneremployed and can't make ends meet as it is. I doubt if my wife will spring for the $30 VMS takes. If I remember the vax 11/780 I used to op had only about a 400mb hard drive. How much do I need for a vms system? Hmm Layered products, C compiler? Pascal Compiler? what was most software for the VAX written in? What other stuff makes for a usefull system? > > Zane > From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 21:25:34 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron, > Could I get these more cheaply online somewhere. Sure thing, lemme know what you need and we'll set you up with The Goods. > Hmm Layered products, C compiler? Pascal Compiler? what was most > software > for the VAX written in? What other stuff makes for a usefull system? VMS was done in many languages, lots of that being BLISS. More recent systems try to move as much as possible to C. The good news is, that 400MB is quite a bit for a VMS/VAX system, so you can "load 'r up" pretty well. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Dec 1 21:27:22 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP In-Reply-To: <000501c3b87f$668f71a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000501c3b87f$668f71a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200312012227.22096.jcwren@jcwren.com> mySQL may be free, and it is an excellent product, but other than in speed for simple transactions, you can hardly compare them. mySQL does not support triggers, nested JOINs (as of about 2 months ago), proper foreign keys, nor a handful of other slightly esoteric but frequently used database methods. I use mySQL for all my database work. But then, the DB stuff I do is pretty straight forward, and I rarely need anything more than it offers. I've messed briefly with postGres, which is verra nice, but was just too different to make worth switching. Oracle is expensive. But it's a lot more database than mySQL will be for a few more years. --jc On Monday 01 December 2003 21:53 pm, Jay West wrote: > Sellam; > > I wrote a paper for management at one of my clients on exactly this topic, > comparing FreeBSD, Linux, and Windows in one section. Another section > compared Apache vs. IIS. The third section compared MySQL and MSSQL, and > the final section compared ASP vs. PHP. > > Note - these comparisons were not in great technical detail, although there > was a lot of technical meat there. The whole paper was focused strictly on > scalability, performance, and reliability. This document was about 1/2 inch > thick most of which was supporting material from third parties (ie. facts). > > This paper caused a company that grosses well into 8 digits and employs > many hundreds of people, to get rid of Microsoft from the datacenter, AND > from every persons desktop. I believe I have a copy of this paper still, > and will forward it to you tomorrow when I get to the office if I can find > it quickly before leaving from the NOC. However, I will give the link > http://www.mysql.com/eweek/ as being most illustrative. Note that the link > I gave IS on the Mysql website, but, after reading the synopsis there, note > the link at the bottom of the page which shows the full details of the > study, NOT done by mysql, but eweek. Also interesting to note... MSSQL > leveled off while mysql and oracle were only half way through their > performance curve. Mysql and Oracle had virtually identical performance > curves, and those curves were WELL above the others (MSQL). So, given two > almost identical performance curves... lets see.... MySQL - free. Oracle... > HOW much per seat license??? *GRIN* > > Oh, and I'll also throw in here... the person who posted that I was selling > FUD with regards to linux... I wholeheartedly disagree with his stance. I > stand by my arguments and facts, but I'm not going to go back and forth > about it on the list. I voiced my experience, nuff said :) > > Jay West > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:16 PM > Subject: OT: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. > Windows/ISS/ASP > > > I have a friend who is a total Microsoft zealot. We repeatedly get into > > annoyingly incredibly pointless arguments over the virtues of Linux > > vs. Windows. I mean, I know people have religious OS wars all the time > > but he's so ignorant of the Linux world that it's stunning. I mean, the > > guy is the smartest person I know, but when it comes to this argument, he > > seems to argue for the sake of arguing because he has no real statistics > > to go off of and talks completely out of his ass, or he'll quote one > > article he read somewhere that said one thing (probably not even what > > he's arguing) to justify his position. > > > > For instance, he says PHP is full of holes and is not professional > > software because it's written by hobbyists on the side, the language is > > not clearly defined, and there's no support for it. He says the same > > about MySQL. In fact, this is where the argument tonight started. He > > had a web service that crashed because one of his MySQL tables got hosed, > > so he blamed all his woes on MySQL (he claims he had to use it because > > the programmer he had do the site only new PHP and not ASP which he > > would've preferred, claiming that ASP is much more robust, is much better > > defined, is way more powerful than PHP, etc., which may all be true but > > his criticisms about PHP and MySQL are so unfounded as to be obnoxious). > > When I mentioned that MySQL DOES have support (you pay for it just like > > you do when you buy MSSQL) he finds some other nit to pick, which I then > > shoot down, so he moves on to another, and another, and another, then > > starts throwing out dubious statistics, etc. > > > > So I know it's completely pointless, but I just want to throw some > > statistics from neutral quarters (i.e. not Linux Journal, but like > > Forbes, Fortune, Network Magazine, etc.) showing how many deployments of: > > > > 1) Apache running on Linux versus Apache on Windows > > 2) PHP on Apache vs. ASP on ISS > > 3) Linux servers vs. Windows servers > > 4) Growth rates, industry trends, etc. > > > > No matter what I tell him he thinks that there's no way that Linux is > > beating MS in any way, shape or form. > > > > As an aside, the extent to which he is completely lost is evident in this > > anecdote. He's complaining how people can't code in 64K anymore, and > > when I point out that this trend of bloat is pretty much directly > > attributable to MS with its programming paradigms and overall bloatiness, > > he shoots that down like I was Satan for even suggesting it. > > > > So anyway, I want charts, graphs, hard numbers, quotes, trends, etc. Any > > articles that can show the actual numbers of what's going on in the > > industry with regards to Linux vs. Windows. > > > > Simple URLs will do. > > > > Thanks for indulging this stupidity. > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > > ---- > > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > mputers ] > > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Mon Dec 1 21:42:26 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? References: Message-ID: <012201c3b886$519bcf80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I am currently uneremployed and can't make ends meet > as it is. I doubt if my wife will spring for the $30 VMS > takes. snappy responses: Well, our time for your questions is worth about $30 anyway. If you want to be productive jobwise, seriously go do netBSD/Linux instead of VMS. > Hmm Layered products, C compiler? Here's what they say they give you at order time: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html OpenVMS VAX Hobbyist Kit V3.0: OpenVMS V7.3 DECWindows 1.2.6 (Motif) DECnet Phase IV DECnet OSI Phase V TCPIP V5.1 Kerberos VAX V1.0 BASIC V3.9 Compaq C V6.4 Compaq FORTRAN V6.6 Pascal V5.8 DCPS V2.0 DECSet V12.4 Datatrieve V7.2 >>> and... shipping's included eBay disks are usually more money. > If I remember the vax 11/780 I used to op had only about a > 400mb hard drive. How much do I need for a vms system? 200mb - 1gb should be enough for a minimal/maximal system. And, time to waste. Got that? This hobbyist stuff is sometimes just plain irresponsible. Sounds like you don't need to be that. John A. From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 21:49:34 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <012201c3b886$519bcf80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, John Allain wrote: > snappy responses: This is *totally* uncalled for. --fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 1 21:45:37 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs.Windows/ISS/ASP References: <000501c3b87f$668f71a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200312012227.22096.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <003e01c3b886$c3202ca0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Very true that mySQL lacks certain features present in other SQL's. However, I was under the impression triggers were added a while back, as were foreign keys (for innodb, not myisam). I will double check! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C. Wren" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:27 PM Subject: Re: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs.Windows/ISS/ASP > mySQL may be free, and it is an excellent product, but other than in speed > for simple transactions, you can hardly compare them. mySQL does not support > triggers, nested JOINs (as of about 2 months ago), proper foreign keys, nor a > handful of other slightly esoteric but frequently used database methods. > > I use mySQL for all my database work. But then, the DB stuff I do is pretty > straight forward, and I rarely need anything more than it offers. I've > messed briefly with postGres, which is verra nice, but was just too different > to make worth switching. > > Oracle is expensive. But it's a lot more database than mySQL will be for a > few more years. > > --jc > > On Monday 01 December 2003 21:53 pm, Jay West wrote: > > Sellam; > > > > I wrote a paper for management at one of my clients on exactly this topic, > > comparing FreeBSD, Linux, and Windows in one section. Another section > > compared Apache vs. IIS. The third section compared MySQL and MSSQL, and > > the final section compared ASP vs. PHP. > > > > Note - these comparisons were not in great technical detail, although there > > was a lot of technical meat there. The whole paper was focused strictly on > > scalability, performance, and reliability. This document was about 1/2 inch > > thick most of which was supporting material from third parties (ie. facts). > > > > This paper caused a company that grosses well into 8 digits and employs > > many hundreds of people, to get rid of Microsoft from the datacenter, AND > > from every persons desktop. I believe I have a copy of this paper still, > > and will forward it to you tomorrow when I get to the office if I can find > > it quickly before leaving from the NOC. However, I will give the link > > http://www.mysql.com/eweek/ as being most illustrative. Note that the link > > I gave IS on the Mysql website, but, after reading the synopsis there, note > > the link at the bottom of the page which shows the full details of the > > study, NOT done by mysql, but eweek. Also interesting to note... MSSQL > > leveled off while mysql and oracle were only half way through their > > performance curve. Mysql and Oracle had virtually identical performance > > curves, and those curves were WELL above the others (MSQL). So, given two > > almost identical performance curves... lets see.... MySQL - free. Oracle... > > HOW much per seat license??? *GRIN* > > > > Oh, and I'll also throw in here... the person who posted that I was selling > > FUD with regards to linux... I wholeheartedly disagree with his stance. I > > stand by my arguments and facts, but I'm not going to go back and forth > > about it on the list. I voiced my experience, nuff said :) > > > > Jay West > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:16 PM > > Subject: OT: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. > > Windows/ISS/ASP > > > > > I have a friend who is a total Microsoft zealot. We repeatedly get into > > > annoyingly incredibly pointless arguments over the virtues of Linux > > > vs. Windows. I mean, I know people have religious OS wars all the time > > > but he's so ignorant of the Linux world that it's stunning. I mean, the > > > guy is the smartest person I know, but when it comes to this argument, he > > > seems to argue for the sake of arguing because he has no real statistics > > > to go off of and talks completely out of his ass, or he'll quote one > > > article he read somewhere that said one thing (probably not even what > > > he's arguing) to justify his position. > > > > > > For instance, he says PHP is full of holes and is not professional > > > software because it's written by hobbyists on the side, the language is > > > not clearly defined, and there's no support for it. He says the same > > > about MySQL. In fact, this is where the argument tonight started. He > > > had a web service that crashed because one of his MySQL tables got hosed, > > > so he blamed all his woes on MySQL (he claims he had to use it because > > > the programmer he had do the site only new PHP and not ASP which he > > > would've preferred, claiming that ASP is much more robust, is much better > > > defined, is way more powerful than PHP, etc., which may all be true but > > > his criticisms about PHP and MySQL are so unfounded as to be obnoxious). > > > When I mentioned that MySQL DOES have support (you pay for it just like > > > you do when you buy MSSQL) he finds some other nit to pick, which I then > > > shoot down, so he moves on to another, and another, and another, then > > > starts throwing out dubious statistics, etc. > > > > > > So I know it's completely pointless, but I just want to throw some > > > statistics from neutral quarters (i.e. not Linux Journal, but like > > > Forbes, Fortune, Network Magazine, etc.) showing how many deployments of: > > > > > > 1) Apache running on Linux versus Apache on Windows > > > 2) PHP on Apache vs. ASP on ISS > > > 3) Linux servers vs. Windows servers > > > 4) Growth rates, industry trends, etc. > > > > > > No matter what I tell him he thinks that there's no way that Linux is > > > beating MS in any way, shape or form. > > > > > > As an aside, the extent to which he is completely lost is evident in this > > > anecdote. He's complaining how people can't code in 64K anymore, and > > > when I point out that this trend of bloat is pretty much directly > > > attributable to MS with its programming paradigms and overall bloatiness, > > > he shoots that down like I was Satan for even suggesting it. > > > > > > So anyway, I want charts, graphs, hard numbers, quotes, trends, etc. Any > > > articles that can show the actual numbers of what's going on in the > > > industry with regards to Linux vs. Windows. > > > > > > Simple URLs will do. > > > > > > Thanks for indulging this stupidity. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > > > Festival > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >- > > > > ---- > > > > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > > > mputers ] > > > > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 22:02:40 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5F81F964-247C-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 09:25 PM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Sure thing, lemme know what you need and we'll set > you up with The Goods. > More recent systems try to move as much as possible to C. > > The good news is, that 400MB is quite a bit for a VMS/VAX system, > so you can "load 'r up" pretty well. Actually my main server machine (beehive) linux redhat 7.somthing has about 11gb on it free. Which is more fun, a linux with a hidden VAX server in my network or A Windows 95/linux laptop running simh VAX portable vs powerful ...hmm. How does VAX mail hook up to the outside world? From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 22:05:55 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: OT: mySQL In-Reply-To: <003e01c3b886$c3202ca0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Jay West wrote: > Very true that mySQL lacks certain features present in other SQL's. However, > I was under the impression triggers were added a while back, as were foreign > keys (for innodb, not myisam). I will double check! Does it support replication these days? Thats why I never really used it; I need database replication features, since my network is spread out over 3 parts of the world :) --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 22:12:32 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <5F81F964-247C-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Ron Hudson wrote: > Actually my main server machine (beehive) linux redhat 7.somthing > has about 11gb on it free. My network has about, oh, 6TB or so. But: > Which is more fun, a linux with a hidden VAX server in my network > or A Windows 95/linux laptop running simh VAX The lappy! I have made several older techies *drool* during flights. I travel business class (nevermind that), so usually have enough space to work. One time, on a flight from Amsterdam to SFO, I was working on some weirdish Ultrix crashing thing on SimH/VAX, and this guy comes up, asking "hey... is that Linux on your laptop? I couldnt help but noticing the UNIX command lines, soo.." Heh. He nearly fell over when shown that it was Win2K, running SimH/VAX with Ultrix-32 on it. It then took only ten minutes to get him moved towards me, and a serial cable laid out to his lappy, as a terminal. We had fun the entire flight, and still do lots of email :) He knew UNIX, but preferred VMS, so now travels with Simh/VAX running OpenVMS 7.1 including all gadgets he could think of... I believe he got an extra lappy just for that. *DAMN* why cant we use WLAN inflight :( > portable vs powerful ...hmm. How does VAX mail hook up to the outside > world? Just regular SMTP. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 1 22:22:41 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Cogito Systems? In-Reply-To: <20031202030510.07038418FE@server1.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, David Vohs wrote: > Anyone here ever heard of a hard drive company called Cogito Systems? I > had a 20 Mb (?) HD of theirs that I traded years ago, & I'm trying to dig > up something about the company. > -- > David Vohs > netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net They were apparently not too much of a factor in the HD game, as they only made five different drive models ranging from 5mb to 21mb, each was 5.25" full height, MFM, ST411/512 interface. - don From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 1 22:19:48 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: mySQL References: Message-ID: <006b01c3b88b$86631070$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> mysql has supported replication for quite some time. Replication was originally kind of a kludge, now it's supported directly. You still have to have a master and multiple slaves. Last I heard, they were very close (may already have it) to having a "master election" in case the master goes down, things keep on running. mySQL isn't oracle. But it's getting there, and fairly quickly. However, most databases that are tied to websites are not extremely complex, hence, the selection of mySQL for fairly simple databases but with high performance requirements - is fairly straightforward. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 10:05 PM Subject: OT: mySQL > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Jay West wrote: > > > Very true that mySQL lacks certain features present in other SQL's. However, > > I was under the impression triggers were added a while back, as were foreign > > keys (for innodb, not myisam). I will double check! > > Does it support replication these days? Thats why I never really > used it; I need database replication features, since my network > is spread out over 3 parts of the world :) > > --f > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 1 22:27:18 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: <1070322340.23648.6.camel@nazgul.pao.digeo.com> References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov> <1070322340.23648.6.camel@nazgul.pao.digeo.com> Message-ID: <1070339237.2242.13.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 15:45, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 14:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:34:27PM -0800, vrs wrote: > > > According to my "Cables Handbook", the BC08B has on M904 on both ends. The > > > BC08D Has an M904 on one end, but two W011 on the other. Hope that helps > > > :-). > > > > That should help a lot - the older stuff (like the DF-32 w/R-series logic) > > is going to have single-sided backplane slots. I don't have any of the > > "newfangled" stuff with M904 connectors... all of my negibus stuff has > > W011 on both ends (and it takes quite a few of those cables to hook things > > together!) I did some more looking and what I need are BC03C (or possibly BC03E) cables. I discovered that you need 11 cables to propagate the NEGIBUS from one device to another! I'm going to need a lot of these cables!! Does anyone know where I can find these cables? Or am I going to be stuck fabricating them? Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 22:28:39 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <012201c3b886$519bcf80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00D99B38-2480-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 09:42 PM, John Allain wrote: >> I am currently uneremployed and can't make ends meet >> as it is. I doubt if my wife will spring for the $30 VMS >> takes. > > snappy responses: > Well, our time for your questions is worth about $30 anyway. > If you want to be productive jobwise, > seriously go do netBSD/Linux instead of VMS. Sorry, You will have to stand in line behind my creditors.. I have been in job search for a technical job for over 4 years. I am a well-skilled Novell system administrator. I have enough experience with linux/unix to earn a brainbench cert as unix administrator. But instead of finding any jobs for my experience i am forced to work at [shudder] radio shack [/shudder] (and I am too honest to be a sales type so I'm the stock guy) (which gets $7.00 /hr and 15/20 hr a week.) The last time I touched VMS it was at version 3.0. > >> Hmm Layered products, C compiler? > > Here's what they say they give you at order time: > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html > OpenVMS VAX Hobbyist Kit V3.0: > > OpenVMS V7.3 > DECWindows 1.2.6 (Motif) > DECnet Phase IV > DECnet OSI Phase V > TCPIP V5.1 > Kerberos VAX V1.0 > BASIC V3.9 > Compaq C V6.4 > Compaq FORTRAN V6.6 > Pascal V5.8 > DCPS V2.0 > DECSet V12.4 > Datatrieve V7.2 >>>> and... shipping's included > > eBay disks are usually more money. > >> If I remember the vax 11/780 I used to op had only about a >> 400mb hard drive. How much do I need for a vms system? > > 200mb - 1gb should be enough for a minimal/maximal system. > > And, time to waste. Got that? 15/20hr a week scleping boxes, the rest is mine but I am also still looking for that tech job. > > This hobbyist stuff is sometimes just plain irresponsible. > Sounds like you don't need to be that. > Walk a mile.. > John A. > > > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 22:29:07 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1140C298-2480-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 09:49 PM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, John Allain wrote: > >> snappy responses: > This is *totally* uncalled for. Thank you. > > --fred > > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) > Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at > http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, > CA, USA > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 22:36:53 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <275CADB6-2481-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 10:12 PM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Actually my main server machine (beehive) linux redhat 7.somthing >> has about 11gb on it free. > My network has about, oh, 6TB or so. But: > >> Which is more fun, a linux with a hidden VAX server in my network >> or A Windows 95/linux laptop running simh VAX yup lappy it is. The linux on the laptop (sputnik - it's a Toshiba sattlite) has about 3.6 gb free. So I could run Simh/VAX/VMS in the background and telnet into localhost to login? > The lappy! I have made several older techies *drool* during > flights. I travel business class (nevermind that), so usually > have enough space to work. One time, on a flight from Amsterdam > to SFO, I was working on some weirdish Ultrix crashing thing on > SimH/VAX, and this guy comes up, asking "hey... is that Linux on > your laptop? I couldnt help but noticing the UNIX command lines, > soo.." If you are going to run unix, why simulate a vax and run vax unix when you can run linux directly? :^) does Ultrix have advantages over linux? > > Heh. He nearly fell over when shown that it was Win2K, running > SimH/VAX with Ultrix-32 on it. It then took only ten minutes > to get him moved towards me, and a serial cable laid out to > his lappy, as a terminal. We had fun the entire flight, and > still do lots of email :) He knew UNIX, but preferred VMS, so > now travels with Simh/VAX running OpenVMS 7.1 including all > gadgets he could think of... I believe he got an extra lappy > just for that. > > *DAMN* why cant we use WLAN inflight :( > >> portable vs powerful ...hmm. How does VAX mail hook up to the outside >> world? > Just regular SMTP. > > Cheers, > Fred > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) > Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at > http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, > CA, USA > > From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Dec 1 22:52:42 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <275CADB6-2481-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Ron Hudson wrote: > yup lappy it is. The linux on the laptop (sputnik - it's a Toshiba > sattlite) has about 3.6 gb free. So I could run Simh/VAX/VMS in > the background and telnet into localhost to login? Yup. > If you are going to run unix, why simulate a vax and run vax unix > when you can run linux directly? :^) does Ultrix have advantages > over linux? Because I consider Linux to be "not unix", but lets not get into a religious war here. I need Win2K for my production work, so my lappies all have that. Doesn't stop me from using E11 and SimH for fun stuff, of course. Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Dec 1 23:01:38 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C32B17A-2484-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 10:52 PM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> yup lappy it is. The linux on the laptop (sputnik - it's a Toshiba >> sattlite) has about 3.6 gb free. So I could run Simh/VAX/VMS in >> the background and telnet into localhost to login? > Yup. > >> If you are going to run unix, why simulate a vax and run vax unix >> when you can run linux directly? :^) does Ultrix have advantages >> over linux? > Because I consider Linux to be "not unix", but lets not get into > a religious war here. No religious war here.. Linux really is not unix (regardless of what sco says) but is close enough for me. > I need Win2K for my production work, so my > lappies all have that. Doesn't stop me from using E11 and SimH for > fun stuff, of course. > > Fred > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) > Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at > http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, > CA, USA > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 1 23:18:14 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <5F81F964-247C-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Dec 01, 2003 10:02:40 PM Message-ID: <200312020518.hB25IE74032700@onyx.spiritone.com> > portable vs powerful ...hmm. How does VAX mail hook up to the outside > world? Once you have TCPIP installed, VMS rocks for email. My private mail server is an Alpha running OpenVMS 7.2.1H1. As for the Simh/VAX questions, really can't help. A VMS box isn't enough of a size/power hog for me to bother with emulation. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 1 23:20:24 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <275CADB6-2481-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Dec 01, 2003 10:36:53 PM Message-ID: <200312020520.hB25KO4o000327@onyx.spiritone.com> > yup lappy it is. The linux on the laptop (sputnik - it's a Toshiba > sattlite) has about 3.6 gb free. So I could run Simh/VAX/VMS in > the background and telnet into localhost to login? Um... What is the CPU in the Toshiba? I know the PDP-10 emulation requires a pretty fast system, for VAX you probably need even more. Zane From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 1 23:16:42 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <00D99B38-2480-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> References: <00D99B38-2480-11D8-A73B-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <200312020619.BAA26961@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The last time I touched VMS it was at version 3.0. Ooo...that's about what I recall it as being when I last used it (which was sometime in the '80s). I surprised myself relatively recently, though, with how much I remembered, when I wound up at a DCL prompt for a few minutes. Ah, the memories. (I wonder if DEC ever fixed PATCH....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Dec 2 00:43:07 2003 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP In-Reply-To: <200312012227.22096.jcwren@jcwren.com> References: <000501c3b87f$668f71a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200312012227.22096.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20031202064307.GA17305@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 10:27:22PM -0500, J.C. Wren wrote: > mySQL may be free, and it is an excellent product, but other than in speed > for simple transactions, you can hardly compare them. mySQL does not support > triggers, nested JOINs (as of about 2 months ago), proper foreign keys, nor a > handful of other slightly esoteric but frequently used database methods. > > I use mySQL for all my database work. But then, the DB stuff I do is pretty > straight forward, and I rarely need anything more than it offers. I've > messed briefly with postGres, which is verra nice, but was just too different > to make worth switching. > > Oracle is expensive. But it's a lot more database than mySQL will be for a > few more years. MySQL should not be used, unless unavoidable, since there is an open source RDBMS which is a lot better: PostgreSQL. For starters, it _is_ a full RDBMS: Fully SQL92 compliant (and partially SQL99, working on it), supporting triggers, rules, stored procedures, transactions, nested queries, several programming languages for stored procedures (currently PL/pgSQL, Perl, Tcl, Python), is very stable (pull the plug during insert/update and the database _will_ recover, you'll just lose transactions open during the power failure since the'll be rolled back), works well under load (many users during insert/update/complex queries). The last version 7.4 which was released a short time ago was again seriously speeded up. And yes, it works for large databases - terabyte sized instances have been seen. I'm using PostgreSQL since a few years (playing with MySQL before that) and I'm very satisfied with it. Also used it for the database in my diploma thesis - MySQL would simply have not been up to it. http://www.postgresql.org/presskit/en/presskit74.php Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tomj at wps.com Tue Dec 2 01:25:04 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Friden Flexowriter, interface timing Message-ID: <1070349323.5186.29.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> I asked before, but I figured annoying an entire mailing list with repeat queries can't hurt THAT much ... ahem I'm working on a flexowriter simulator (hardware adapter, everything else on the host side), I think I have the PRINT side down, but the input side timing I'm missing some detailed info. Two signals, JL11, and JL12, ingeniously named after their connector pin assignments, begin and end the data-valid phase of a key-press or tape-read. Most Flexo signals are determined by cams on a rotating shaft, but these two I believe are determined by a stack of contacts; one of them, SC7, is required to make last and break first (eg. data strobe). I just can't determine how this switch stack is set up, or approximately how long their periods are, etc. I have no idea if all flexo's adhere to this same protocol. I really would rather not drag home 0.1T of drippy/dusty iron just to figure this out... I have a Friden maintenance manual lent to me by a friend but it's not so revealing of timing, mainly just repair-oriented adjustments. (The whole project will be open source, as is the underlying PIC-based controller I use http://wps.com/products/Model-01/index.html) From tomj at wps.com Tue Dec 2 01:35:32 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:35 2005 Subject: Minicomputers I wouldn't mind having... Message-ID: <1070349951.5187.35.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> ...as if I need more things to do, I've always wanted a Nova 1200 or a smallish General Automation machine, 8K/16K/32K core and a tty interface. I have no desire for high-maintenance disk systems, though a linc tape would be nice (used those with the DG before). Are these things ever available? Anyone have one they'd like to part with? From tomj at wps.com Tue Dec 2 01:48:52 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: Nuclear Data minicomputer & more! Message-ID: <1070350751.5261.50.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> I will probably make a run up to Los ALamos, New Mexico this winter, and will fetch items I think I can unload on classiccmp fools like me, for cost only of course. I want to pre-inquire on a few though. Ed's got a bunch of Nuclear Data branded items, some CRT terminals I don't recognize, and at least one mini. I thought I recorded the model # etc in my Palm but I can't find it. I was of course gonna take it home regardless, but it's wirewrapped -- and the last mini I had died of creeping bad wraps (a Varian 622/I) so I assume this ND machine is non-operating. The mini will run about 50 lbs and shipping won't be too cheap accordingly. It's been stored for years, out of the weather and dry, but large temperature extremes, and it gets cooooold in LA NM. The ND terminals are heavy, and some have NIM slots in the front (Nuclear Instrumentation Module standard 5V/12V etc buss). Obviously they have fat glass tubes both heavy and delicate. Id' say they have a good chance of operating, otherwise. The COSMAC jobs mentioned previously I will take all of, they'll ship cheap. He's also got a DG Dasher terminal, but it's junk, the side is open and missing, wires pulled off the big card, junk and trash in the print head galley. If there's more I'll err on the side of taking it, inversely proportional to its bulk & weight. I'll at least photo anything else. This trip is still somewhat conjecture, but I've gone up there every winter for the last decade, don't see why I won't this year. I have only a station wagon and I may have a Flexowriter and Tally reader/punch to haul home (ugh, I really don't want to) so space may be limited. Consider this an inducement to get me that flexo timing data so I'll ahve more room in the 'wagon :-) From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Dec 2 02:36:41 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: <1070339237.2242.13.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov> <1070322340.23648.6.camel@nazgul.pao.digeo.com> <1070339237.2242.13.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 08:27:18PM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 15:45, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 14:06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > ...all of my negibus stuff has a W011 on both ends (and it takes > > > quite a few of those cables to hook things together!) > > I did some more looking and what I need are BC03C (or possibly BC03E) > cables. I discovered that you need 11 cables to propagate the NEGIBUS > from one device to another! I'm going to need a lot of these cables!! ISTR 7 cables between my -8/i and the first DF-32 in the rack. 11 doesn't sound outrageous to propagate *all* possible negibus signals from one box to another. > Does anyone know where I can find these cables? Or am I going to be > stuck fabricating them? I have only seen such cables come already attached to devices. I think you may have to fabricate them. Now... what you can do is to make a *double-sided* board and design it to be universal. You'll just be using 50% of its potential. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Dec-2003 08:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -21.1 F (-29.5 C) Windchill -49.6 F (-45.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.30 kts Grid 078 Barometer 699 mb (9916.2 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 3 03:23:45 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <10312012136.ZM5958@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 01 December 2003 21:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: leaky batteries! > > I guess it depends on what the brown stuff is, and where it is. On the > case? You could try soaking it in something mildly alkaline, like > washing soda, or in sugar soap solution, and see if it softens it. Is > this a deposit on the surface, or has it combined with the plastic? So > long as it's not actually reacted with the plastic, I find Flash is > pretty good. A small bucket of hot water with a dollop of Flash, and a > cloth, is my weapon of choice for cables and metal/plastic cases. Thanks for all the suggestions folks. Fortunately the gunk is all inside the battery compartment and didn't get onto the outside of the case or damage the box. If you remember what happened to 1970s Ever Ready batteries then that's what's leaked out :) I'll post some pix when I find the digicam! Stuff I have: Isopropyl Alcohol and various kitchen cleaning products, so I'll try those first. Now where did I put that elbow grease? cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From vrs at msn.com Tue Dec 2 04:10:36 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com><20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov><1070322340.23648.6.camel@nazgul.pao.digeo.com><1070339237.2242.13.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > I have only seen such cables come already attached to devices. I think > you may have to fabricate them. > > Now... what you can do is to make a *double-sided* board and design it > to be universal. You'll just be using 50% of its potential. I think I may have something like this...though it was originally done for Posibus. The DF32 emulator I bought from Charles Morris uses edge connector cards built by a board shop, and 40-pin (I think) ribbon cables to connect to the 8L's (bought that, too) Posibus. Shoudn't be too hard to lay out the boards starting from there, anyway. At 11*2=22 boards/device, you are even talking quantities that make sense to send out to a board fabricator. BTW: Any market for DF32 emulators out there? I like mine, but I wondered if there was demand to get more made? Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Dec 2 04:28:56 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables References: <1070296698.2304.93.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com><20031201220655.GB28638@bos7.spole.gov><1070322340.23648.6.camel@nazgul.pao.digeo.com><1070339237.2242.13.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com><20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > > Now... what you can do is to make a *double-sided* board and design it > > to be universal. You'll just be using 50% of its potential. > > I think I may have something like this...though it was originally done for > Posibus. The DF32 emulator I bought from Charles Morris uses edge connector > cards built by a board shop, and 40-pin (I think) ribbon cables to connect > to the 8L's (bought that, too) Posibus. Shoudn't be too hard to lay out the > boards starting from there, anyway. At 11*2=22 boards/device, you are even > talking quantities that make sense to send out to a board fabricator. Checked the schematics, and what they show is a set of universal paddles leading to a little board with all the cross-connects in it. A lot of the cross-connects look suspiciously like M904/W011 wiring :-). The paddles also have space for a second 40-pin connector (which is not actually installed on my DF32 emulator paddles), so you could daisy-chain them if you wanted to. Vince From cheri-post at web.de Tue Dec 2 06:20:57 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50 Message-ID: <200312021220.hB2CKvQ09851@mailgate5.cinetic.de> > > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > > gives out the adress fopr the SDI-Controller, if I type in > > > KLESI, KFQSA and KDA50. I installed the controller directly > > > behind the KFQSA-Board with the address given by config. > > > > It's been a while now but I'm pretty sure that the KFQSA > > pretends to be an MSCP device for each disk it has been > > configured to recognise. So if you have configured your > > KFQSA for two disks, it behaves as two KDA50s. The > > exact addresses of these depend on how the KFQSA was > > configured. > Yes, a KFQSA controller creates up to three MSCP controllers; > one for each device connected (in my VAX 4705A, which only HAS > three drives.. it may support the full 7 drives..) > > So, if you have a KDA50 as well, that could create up to 4 > of em. Make sure the one you want to *boot* from is the one > at the MSCP default (17772150 comes to mind?) address. > > > Yes, definitely. With the post-MicroVAX II systems, it's > > one of the quick ways to see if the KDA50 works at all. > > It's probably being masked by the KFQSA. > The KDA probably sits at the default address, with the KFQSA > also using that address, indeed. Most KFQSA's are configured > to allocate as many controllers as needed, with the first one > sitting at the MSCP-default address, soo.. > Thanks for your answers ! I'm also convinced sure that the KDA is masked by the KFQSA. The adress on the KDA has been changed by myself to the adress given by the "config" - command, 1ut unfortunately, the KDA hasn't been detected by "show device". Tonight, i'll remove the KFQSA and the KLESI and make a new try with the default addess (172150). Pierre ______________________________________________________________________________ WEB.DE FreeMail wird 5 Jahre jung! Feiern Sie mit uns und nutzen Sie die neuen Funktionen http://f.web.de/features/?mc=021130 From cheri-post at web.de Tue Dec 2 06:42:14 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: DEC S11 (PDP11) at Ebay Message-ID: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Check out this auction at Ebay-Germany: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2769537250&category=15403 The seller sais that it's a Mainframe of the PDP11-family, but I've never seen such a thing. ______________________________________________________________________________ Horoskop, Comics, VIPs, Wetter, Sport und Lotto im WEB.DE Screensaver1.2 Kostenlos downloaden: http://screensaver.web.de/?mc=021110 From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Dec 2 07:02:35 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: <200312020520.hB25KO4o000327@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 11:20 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> yup lappy it is. The linux on the laptop (sputnik - it's a Toshiba >> sattlite) has about 3.6 gb free. So I could run Simh/VAX/VMS in >> the background and telnet into localhost to login? AMD k6 (um 665.19 bogoMIPs :^) I don't remember the real speed) > > Um... What is the CPU in the Toshiba? I know the PDP-10 emulation > requires > a pretty fast system, for VAX you probably need even more. > > Zane > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 2 07:42:45 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: DEC S11 (PDP11) at Ebay In-Reply-To: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> References: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <3FCC96D5.80204@atarimuseum.com> Wow!!! That is a thing of beauty, main that is a cool looking system!!! Curt Pierre Gebhardt wrote: >Check out this auction at Ebay-Germany: > > >http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2769537250&category=15403 > >The seller sais that it's a Mainframe of the PDP11-family, but I've never seen such a thing. >______________________________________________________________________________ >Horoskop, Comics, VIPs, Wetter, Sport und Lotto im WEB.DE Screensaver1.2 >Kostenlos downloaden: http://screensaver.web.de/?mc=021110 > > > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Dec 2 06:43:31 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 02:10:36AM -0800, vrs wrote: > At 11*2=22 boards/device, you are even > talking quantities that make sense to send out to a board fabricator. Indeed. If you were really being cheap, single-sided boards would cost less, but I don't have any numbers to estimate how much cheaper they would be. I have both coax and ribbon-cable negibus cables, and some of the paddle cards are about the size of a G727 Unibus grant card. Those would be somewhat cheap to make, especially at q25. > BTW: Any market for DF32 emulators out there? I like mine, but I wondered > if there was demand to get more made? I'd love one, but I might have to convert my negibus -8/i to posibus to use it. I suppose I could throw one on my 12K 8/L. I've always wanted to have disk on it. How much harder would it be to make an RF08 emulator? :-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Dec-2003 12:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -24.9 F (-31.6 C) Windchill -53.4 F (-47.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9 kts Grid 071 Barometer 698.7 mb (9927.9 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 2 09:11:37 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: Minicomputers I wouldn't mind having... In-Reply-To: <1070349951.5187.35.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> References: <1070349951.5187.35.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> Message-ID: <200312021011.37421.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tom Jennings declared on Tuesday 02 December 2003 02:25 am: > ...as if I need more things to do, I've always wanted a Nova 1200 or > a smallish General Automation machine, 8K/16K/32K core and a tty > interface. I have no desire for high-maintenance disk systems, though > a linc tape would be nice (used those with the DG before). > > Are these things ever available? Anyone have one they'd like to part > with? I managed to fall across a GA SPC-16/40 and 16/45 back in spring of this year. They were the *first* machine's I've acquired with a nice blinkenlites frontpanel (and, still the only one I have... still need a PDP-11 with proper frontpanel...). I managed to grab both of the CPUs, their power supplies (external from the chassis) the I/O cabinet for one of them, and a disk pack drive. One of them seemed to work fairly well (the /45 I think) and the other has some issues with the processor datapaths. Of course, when you get a good thing, it end up getting screwed up by others... I had the thing sitting in my office at Purdue and aparently left one of the frontpanels sitting too close to the trash can, or something. So, now I'm down to just one complete machine...which needs its frontpanel to be fixed. Sigh. -- Pat PLUG Vice President -- http://plug.purdue.org Slackware Linux -- http://slackware.com Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs From vrs at msn.com Tue Dec 2 09:27:12 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> <20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 02:10:36AM -0800, vrs wrote: > > At 11*2=22 boards/device, you are even > > talking quantities that make sense to send out to a board fabricator. > > Indeed. If you were really being cheap, single-sided boards would cost > less, but I don't have any numbers to estimate how much cheaper they > would be. I have both coax and ribbon-cable negibus cables, and some > of the paddle cards are about the size of a G727 Unibus grant card. > Those would be somewhat cheap to make, especially at q25. It looks about a buck cheaper for small quantities of single sided. Checking online, it looks like $13.21 vs $14.46 for 1 week delivery. 5 weeks is $9.40 each for the two-sided boards, all qty 30. 30 bare-bones one-sided cards can be had in 5 weeks for $7.81 each, no solder mask or silk-screen. 30 bare-bones two-sided cards can be had in 5 weeks for $8.62 each, no solder mask or silk-screen. That's just one vendor, of course, but it is the one with the steepest quantity discount I know. Those boards are around $4 each qty 100, and $2.50 each, qty 500 :-). As the quantity goes up, the difference in price also goes down. If you are using 20-odd per device, it might be possible to use 100 :-). Of course, single sided cards are not as generic, so you might as well make them W011 clones and use narrower headers and ribbon, for additional cost savings :-). > > BTW: Any market for DF32 emulators out there? I like mine, but I wondered > > if there was demand to get more made? > > I'd love one, but I might have to convert my negibus -8/i to posibus to > use it. I suppose I could throw one on my 12K 8/L. I've always wanted > to have disk on it. How much harder would it be to make an RF08 > emulator? :-) I don't think it would be too hard, but then I didn't do the design work on the DF32 emulation :-). Basically, it is like some of the talk on another thread -- an NVRAM chip, some counters and gates for data break, and a bus interface card that collects up all the Posibus signals. It emulates all 8 possible drives (and exports write-protect switches for each one :-)). Last I heard, there was a diagnostic function unimplemented that keeps it from being 100% software compatible. I should recheck the RevB schematic to see if that has been addressed yet. Replaces a whole rack with a 1U device :-). I just have to get my 8L working well enough to use it :-). It also occurred to me that one could turn the generic boards into M904/W011 clones by using the pads for the second header to install the ground jumpers needed. That would give a very clean look, but would also use more paddle cards than ribbon cable daisy chaining. Vince From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 09:04:12 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: Looking for Infotek AD 200 board for an HP 9000/300 In-Reply-To: <200312011947.hB1JlTQ10356@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202100412.007fa100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Stan, FWIW someone on this list was looking for info about the Infotek AD cards about 6 months or a year ago. Stan Perkins was also looking for info on the memory cards and I send him a copy of what I had. Joe At 11:47 AM 12/1/03 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >Peter (see below) is looking for an Infotek AD 200 board for an HP 9000/300. > >Reply to him, not me, if you can help. > >thanks! > >Forwarded message: >> From peter.hagberg@kodak.com Mon Dec 1 11:06:44 2003 >> From: peter.hagberg@kodak.com >> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:06:34 -0500 >> >> I am looking for an Infotek AD 200 board for an HP 9000/300. Can you help ? >> >> >> Peter T. Hagberg >> Ag XRF/HPLC Bld.59 >> Analytical Technology Division >> Eastman Kodak Research Labs >> Phone 585-477-3649 >> Email (Work)- Peter.Hagberg@Kodak.com > >-- >Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com >www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 09:34:16 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The BEST thing for leaky batteries is a product called "Lime-Away". It's sold in grocery stores and is used to remove stains caused by hard water. Get the liquid stuff, not the gell. Put it on full strength a wait a few minutes then wash/brush it off. It won't harm plastics. The main ingediant is phosphoric acid and it will leave a phosphate coating on some metals. The phosphate coating is similar to parkerizing and will help prevent future corrosion. It's by far the best thing I've found for corroded batteries. I'm not sure if they sell Lime-Away in the UK but they must sell something similar. Try it and let me know how it works for you. Joe At 07:30 PM 12/2/03 +0000, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >Whilst getting an old Videomaster pong ready for sale (even though I know >nobody will buy it) I discovered it still had its batteries in from the last >time it was used - 1970s by the looks of the batteries - and they'd >naturally leaked all over the place. > >I've tried standard Foamcleaner (anti static, natch) to remove the lovely >brown stuff but it's not having any of it. Any tips for removal of this >stuff without scratching the plastic too much? > >cheers, > >-- >adrian/witchy >www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum >www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 2 10:27:59 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> <20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1070382479.2240.28.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 07:27, vrs wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 02:10:36AM -0800, vrs wrote: > > > At 11*2=22 boards/device, you are even > > > talking quantities that make sense to send out to a board fabricator. > It looks about a buck cheaper for small quantities of single sided. > Checking online, it looks like $13.21 vs $14.46 for 1 week delivery. 5 > weeks is $9.40 each for the two-sided boards, all qty 30. > > 30 bare-bones one-sided cards can be had in 5 weeks for $7.81 each, no > solder mask or silk-screen. > 30 bare-bones two-sided cards can be had in 5 weeks for $8.62 each, no > solder mask or silk-screen. > > That's just one vendor, of course, but it is the one with the steepest > quantity discount I know. Those boards are around $4 each qty 100, and > $2.50 each, qty 500 :-). As the quantity goes up, the difference in price > also goes down. If you are using 20-odd per device, it might be possible to > use 100 :-). Since I need something like 44 cables (8/i, DM01, TC01, FPP12, DF32) 100 isn't really too many. Now all I have to do is find the coax ribbon cable... > > Of course, single sided cards are not as generic, so you might as well make > them W011 clones and use narrower headers and ribbon, for additional cost > savings :-). > > > > BTW: Any market for DF32 emulators out there? I like mine, but I > wondered > > > if there was demand to get more made? > > > > I'd love one, but I might have to convert my negibus -8/i to posibus to > > use it. I suppose I could throw one on my 12K 8/L. I've always wanted > > to have disk on it. How much harder would it be to make an RF08 > > emulator? :-) > > I don't think it would be too hard, but then I didn't do the design work on > the DF32 emulation :-). Basically, it is like some of the talk on another > thread -- an NVRAM chip, some counters and gates for data break, and a bus > interface card that collects up all the Posibus signals. It emulates all 8 > possible drives (and exports write-protect switches for each one :-)). Last > I heard, there was a diagnostic function unimplemented that keeps it from > being 100% software compatible. I should recheck the RevB schematic to see > if that has been addressed yet. Replaces a whole rack with a 1U device :-). > I just have to get my 8L working well enough to use it :-). > > It also occurred to me that one could turn the generic boards into M904/W011 > clones by using the pads for the second header to install the ground jumpers > needed. That would give a very clean look, but would also use more paddle > cards than ribbon cable daisy chaining. > > Vince -- TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 2 10:54:15 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: DEC S11 (PDP11) at Ebay In-Reply-To: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> References: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: >Check out this auction at Ebay-Germany: > >http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2769537250&category=15403 > >The seller sais that it's a Mainframe of the PDP11-family, but I've never seen such a thing. I see a Disk Drive, a line printer, and a system console. Where is the computer? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vrs at msn.com Tue Dec 2 11:08:36 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov><20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> <1070382479.2240.28.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Since I need something like 44 cables (8/i, DM01, TC01, FPP12, DF32) > 100 isn't really too many. Now all I have to do is find the coax ribbon > cable... If you used a spare header to daisy chain using ribbon cables, you'd save up to 11 paddles per device, and only need 55 total. The way that works is that instead of using a pair of paddles for "bus in" and "bus out", you'd use one paddle, but it would have an "input" ribbon and an "output" ribbon. It is my understanding that the devices essentially wire a pairs of sockets 1-1 for the "bus in" and "bus out" connectors. (I have quoted "input" and "output" because it is a bus, and there is no real difference between them.) Of course, that won't look quite right to whoever compares your hardware to the manuals :-). Vince From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Dec 2 11:15:47 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: <1070382479.2240.28.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> <20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> <1070382479.2240.28.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20031202171547.GB31174@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 08:27:59AM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Since I need something like 44 cables (8/i, DM01, TC01, FPP12, DF32) > 100 isn't really too many. Now all I have to do is find the coax ribbon > cable... Some of mine also have round cable with lots of strands of coax inside. That's another option. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Dec-2003 17:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.4 F (-27.4 C) Windchill -52.3 F (-46.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.9 kts Grid 058 Barometer 698.4 mb (9939.6 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Dec 2 11:20:42 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: what is the next step? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Um... What is the CPU in the Toshiba? I know the PDP-10 emulation > > requires > > a pretty fast system, for VAX you probably need even more. I run a PDP-11/34a and an 11/83 on my M700 with P3/850, and I run some VAXen on it, no problem. Even my HiNote lappies can run SimH just fine... its still faster than a real one ;-) --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From marvin at rain.org Tue Dec 2 11:44:43 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> <20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> <1070382479.2240.28.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <3FCCCF8B.E850C9B1@rain.org> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Since I need something like 44 cables (8/i, DM01, TC01, FPP12, DF32) > 100 isn't really too many. Now all I have to do is find the coax ribbon > cable... Would shielded ribbon cable do the same thing? I suspect it might be a bit less expensive. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Dec 2 11:49:56 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > The BEST thing for leaky batteries is a product called "Lime-Away". > It's sold in grocery stores and is used to remove stains caused by hard > water. Get the liquid stuff, not the gell. Put it on full strength a > wait a few minutes then wash/brush it off. It won't harm plastics. The > main ingediant is phosphoric acid and it will leave a phosphate coating > on some metals. The phosphate coating is similar to parkerizing and will > help prevent future corrosion. It's by far the best thing I've found for > corroded batteries. I'm assuming that CLR ("Calcium, Lime, Rust") is also good? Or is the "Calcium-Rust" component of the formula not good for plastics? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Dec 2 11:52:27 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: DEC S11 (PDP11) at Ebay In-Reply-To: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Check out this auction at Ebay-Germany: > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2769537250&category=15403 > > The seller sais that it's a Mainframe of the PDP11-family, but I've > never seen such a thing. It has very classic Robotron styling. Robotron was an East German company that made computers based on cloned Western technology. Robotron produced an entire line of PDP11 clone hardware. This looks to me like a Robotron system (I could be wrong). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Dec 2 11:58:43 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8 NEGIBUS Cables In-Reply-To: <3FCCCF8B.E850C9B1@rain.org> References: <20031202083641.GB30357@bos7.spole.gov> <20031202124331.GA30751@bos7.spole.gov> <1070382479.2240.28.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <3FCCCF8B.E850C9B1@rain.org> Message-ID: <20031202175843.GA31389@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 09:44:43AM -0800, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > Since I need something like 44 cables (8/i, DM01, TC01, FPP12, DF32) > > 100 isn't really too many. Now all I have to do is find the coax ribbon > > cable... > > Would shielded ribbon cable do the same thing? I suspect it might be a > bit less expensive. It would work (I have DEC-manufactured cables with unshielded ribbon), but it would affect max bus length. According to the DEC configuration docs, coax gives the best performance due to faster signal propagation (speed of light in different media and what not). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Dec-2003 17:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.2 F (-27.3 C) Windchill -51.7 F (-46.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.7 kts Grid 050 Barometer 698.4 mb (9939.6 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 2 11:52:28 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: reply-to Message-ID: <200312021752.JAA02228@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Pete I'm not sure exactly what was happening. I looked at the line this time and it included your address as well as cctalk( removed your so you don't get twice as much). The other time I didn't look at the reply line so I'm not sure why it posted double but I suspect that it had cctalk twice. Dwight >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Dec 1, 16:03, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> > For a little while, I've been mildly surprised to see that when I >reply >> > to posts, I end up generating a reply to both the list and the >original >> > poster. > >> I've noticed some messages I've replied to are like this as well, >though >> not all. For instance, this one wasn't. Whenever I reply to one of >> Witchy's messages then it behaves as you describe. Witchy, what are >you >> doing to your headers, young man? > >:-) Dwight's are like that too. I've set a Reply-To: in this message >to see if that's what's doing it... > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 2 12:11:02 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! Message-ID: <200312021811.KAA02239@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > >> The BEST thing for leaky batteries is a product called "Lime-Away". >> It's sold in grocery stores and is used to remove stains caused by hard >> water. Get the liquid stuff, not the gell. Put it on full strength a >> wait a few minutes then wash/brush it off. It won't harm plastics. The >> main ingediant is phosphoric acid and it will leave a phosphate coating >> on some metals. The phosphate coating is similar to parkerizing and will >> help prevent future corrosion. It's by far the best thing I've found for >> corroded batteries. > >I'm assuming that CLR ("Calcium, Lime, Rust") is also good? Or is the >"Calcium-Rust" component of the formula not good for plastics? > Hi Sellam I suspect that it is the same thing. It may use some other acid but for the cleaning part it should work OK. I've used phosphoric acid treatment on a boat trailer that I had to protect from the dunkings I did in salt water. So far, the paint has been on for about 10 years and there is no flaking of the paint caused by rust under the paint. The are some small rust stain lines where the paint is cracked. If it had been any other undercoating method, I'm sure these cracks would have allowed the rust to spread under the paint and peeled the paint off. It is interesting that I never knew what the process was called ( Parkerizing ). I do know it works but often when I talk to other boat people, they don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I just didn't use the right name. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 2 12:38:41 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200312021840.NAA29293@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] a product called "Lime-Away". [...] The main ingediant is > phosphoric acid How cheap is it? How does it compare to Coke, in particular? Coke has sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric acid in it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water rinse afterwards.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 12:43:04 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202134304.007fec30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:49 AM 12/2/03 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > >> The BEST thing for leaky batteries is a product called "Lime-Away". >> It's sold in grocery stores and is used to remove stains caused by hard >> water. Get the liquid stuff, not the gell. Put it on full strength a >> wait a few minutes then wash/brush it off. It won't harm plastics. The >> main ingediant is phosphoric acid and it will leave a phosphate coating >> on some metals. The phosphate coating is similar to parkerizing and will >> help prevent future corrosion. It's by far the best thing I've found for >> corroded batteries. > >I'm assuming that CLR ("Calcium, Lime, Rust") is also good? Or is the >"Calcium-Rust" component of the formula not good for plastics? > I THINK I tried CLR but found that it had less Phosphoric acid and didn't work as well as Lime-Away. I tried several different brands of cleaners and that was the case with most of them. I doubt any phosphoric acid product would hurt any plastics. Joe >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 12:55:19 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <200312021811.KAA02239@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:11 AM 12/2/03 -0800, you wrote: >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >>On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: >> >>> The BEST thing for leaky batteries is a product called "Lime-Away". >>> It's sold in grocery stores and is used to remove stains caused by hard >>> water. Get the liquid stuff, not the gell. Put it on full strength a >>> wait a few minutes then wash/brush it off. It won't harm plastics. The >>> main ingediant is phosphoric acid and it will leave a phosphate coating >>> on some metals. The phosphate coating is similar to parkerizing and will >>> help prevent future corrosion. It's by far the best thing I've found for >>> corroded batteries. >> >>I'm assuming that CLR ("Calcium, Lime, Rust") is also good? Or is the >>"Calcium-Rust" component of the formula not good for plastics? >> >Hi Sellam > I suspect that it is the same thing. It may use some other >acid but for the cleaning part it should work OK. I've used >phosphoric acid treatment on a boat trailer that I had to protect >from the dunkings I did in salt water. So far, the paint >has been on for about 10 years and there is no flaking of >the paint caused by rust under the paint. The are some small >rust stain lines where the paint is cracked. If it had been >any other undercoating method, I'm sure these cracks would >have allowed the rust to spread under the paint and peeled >the paint off. It is interesting that I never knew what the >process was called ( Parkerizing ). I do know it works but >often when I talk to other boat people, they don't know what >I'm talking about. Maybe I just didn't use the right name. "Parkerize" is actually a trade name that belongs to the Parker Chemical company so other companies MUST call their products/treatments by another name but there are many companies that offer the same or similar treatments. However the term Parkerizing has been in use since at least WW II and is almost always used genericly for these types of treatments. "Parkerizing" is the name of the treatment that was used on both the M1 Garand Rifle (1936) and M1 Carbine (19410 in place of blueing. I don't know if the manufacturers actually used the Parker process but all of the manuals for those guns always refer to the finish as "Parkerizing". BTW if you've ever used Navel Jelly it leaves the same kind of finish. The main ingrediant in Navel Jelly is phosphoric acid. I've tried using it on electronics but it's difficult to remove since it's a gell. I had the same problem with the gelled Lime-Away. Joe From cb at mythtech.net Tue Dec 2 12:55:24 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! Message-ID: >How cheap is it? How does it compare to Coke, in particular? Coke has >sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric >acid in it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water rinse >afterwards.) Myth Busters on TV did an episode about the myths of Coke. I was surprised to see that it really DID clean battery terminals in a car better than water. It also appeared to do a better job of cleaning chrome than the chrome polish they tested against (they didn't say what the brand was they tried). However, it didn't appear to do anything for degreasing an engine, or disolving meat or teeth :-) -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 13:16:39 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <200312021840.NAA29293@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:38 PM 12/2/03 -0500, you wrote: >> [...] a product called "Lime-Away". [...] The main ingediant is >> phosphoric acid > >How cheap is it? I bought a 28 oz bottle at Walmart a couple of weeks ago. I think it was about $3.79. 28ozs will last a LONG time. I used the stuff four or five times/day when I was working on calculators (and used occasionally around the house) and one bottle lasted for a couple of years. (PS also found that it good for cleaning china and silver ware.) How does it compare to Coke, in particular? Coke doesn't even come close! The next best thing that I found was Hydrogen Peroxide. The normal 3% solution works (somewhat) but I have a neighbor that is a hair dresser and she gave me some that she says is 30% and it works much better. However I don't think it's anywhere close to 30%. I once threw a grain of Potassium Permanganate in about 1/4" of 30% H2O2 and I KNOW how reactive it can be! I think the stuff that she has is actually about 5 or 10%. Coke has >sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric >acid in it. I don't think coke has but a trace of phosphoric acid. I think the main ingrediant (besides water) is carbonic acid (CO2 and water). Phosphorus is some NASTY stuff. It's used in rat poison and I've seen the skeletons of animals that have ingested it. It causes the bones to litterally crumble away. I do my best not to get it on my skin and I always rinse VERY well after using it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water rinse >afterwards.) Yes. The liguid stuff rinses away with no trouble. FWIW, I'd rather use ANYTHING than a product containing sugar. I've seen too many gummed up keybaords from spilled Coke and coffee. Sugar can be surprisingly hard to remove. BTW phosphoric acid is widely used by janitorial services for cleaning. I don't know the exact strength of the stuff they use but I think it's pretty strong. If you know somebody in that trade you might be able to get some from them and try it. If you do, I'd like to know how it works. Joe > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Dec 2 13:18:35 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: ACP swapmeet and PCmuseum.com In-Reply-To: <3FCB6C35.3C1869D3@rain.org> References: <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <1070254458.15093.177.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20031201060613.00a67920@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031202111441.031ddc90@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 08:28 AM 12/1/03 -0800, Marvin Johnston wrote: >I met and talked with the owner of ACP several years ago and told him of >this listserver. IIRC, he was fairly busy at the time and wasn't >interested in pursuing it then. Sounds to me like they are still pretty busy, but shifting at least some attention to the collection they have. My impression is that they have a lot of hardware thats fairly rare, ie a scelbi, but maybe not a lot of the supporting software and documentation, so this list could be a good mix for them. From nncaar at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 13:10:53 2003 From: nncaar at yahoo.com (Naresh Chauhan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: Arnet smartport cards Message-ID: <20031202191053.40299.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, I want Arnet smartport card and test in SCO Xenix. If you please let me know thanks naresh __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 2 13:37:07 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Need resources showing deployments for Linux/Apache/PHP vs. Windows/ISS/ASP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > So I know it's completely pointless, but I just want to throw some > statistics from neutral quarters (i.e. not Linux Journal, but like > Forbes, Fortune, Network Magazine, etc.) showing how many deployments > of: > > 1) Apache running on Linux versus Apache on Windows > 2) PHP on Apache vs. ASP on ISS > 3) Linux servers vs. Windows servers > 4) Growth rates, industry trends, etc. > So anyway, I want charts, graphs, hard numbers, quotes, trends, etc. > Any articles that can show the actual numbers of what's going on in the > industry with regards to Linux vs. Windows. > > Simple URLs will do. Have you had a look at the Netcraft site? It probably has every chart, graph, and number that you are looking for. Their site is at http://www.netcraft.com/ -Toth From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 2 13:49:59 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> What is the pH of Coke? > Coke has > >sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric > >acid in it. On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > I don't think coke has but a trace of phosphoric acid. I think the main > ingrediant (besides water) is carbonic acid (CO2 and water). "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? "Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup and/or glucose (formerly SUGAR), caramel color, natural flavors, phosphoric acid, and caffeine" even Jolt doesn't have much phosphoric acid. BTW: "Mythbusters" is a fun show to watch, but they are clueless about experimental procedures. > Yes. The liguid stuff rinses away with no trouble. FWIW, I'd rather use > ANYTHING than a product containing sugar. I've seen too many gummed up > keybaords from spilled Coke and coffee. Sugar can be surprisingly hard to > remove. I have always reassured my programming students that nothing that they accidentally enter through the keyboard of their computers would actually DAMAGE the computer. One wiseguy said, "I entered a Pepsi." Coke and Pepsi seem similar in composition, but Pepsi has more of a history: After Three Mile Island, Saturday Night Live postulated that it was caused by "The Pepsi Syndrome", the result of spilling a Pepsi into a computer keyboard. Shortly after that, the U.S.A. and USSR (CCCP) normalized diplomatic relations enough to import vodka and export Pepsi to Russia. That was followed almost immediately by Chernobyl. Surely that could not be coincidence! Until their recent bailout, Apple computers ride into failure was with a former Pepsi exedcutive at the helm. Coincidence? Ever since we banned Pepsi from the college computer lab, we have not had any meltdowns. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Dec 2 13:55:04 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > > Coke has > >sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric > >acid in it. > > I don't think coke has but a trace of phosphoric acid. I think the main > ingrediant (besides water) is carbonic acid (CO2 and water). Phosphorus is > some NASTY stuff. It's used in rat poison and I've seen the skeletons of > animals that have ingested it. It causes the bones to litterally crumble > away. I do my best not to get it on my skin and I always rinse VERY well > after using it. Phosphorus is toxic (white Phosphorus, the kind that used to be used in rat poison, is especially toxic) but Phosphoric acid is not toxic (though it is a strong acid so a concentrated solution _will_ burn you) I would guess that Coca Colas main tartness comes from Phosporic acid so it must have a fair amount (PH 2.5 - 3) In the olden days you could get a "Cherry Phosphate" at the Soda Fountain. These are made tart by adding a few drops of concentrated Phosphoric acid... Peter Wallace From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Dec 2 14:08:08 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 2, 03 11:49:59 am Message-ID: <200312022008.PAA05211@wordstock.com> And thusly Fred Cisin spake: > > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? > > "Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup and/or glucose (formerly > SUGAR), caramel color, natural flavors, phosphoric acid, and caffeine" > even Jolt doesn't have much phosphoric acid. > useless information: In Canada, all of the non-diet pop has sugar, not high fructose corn syrup... Cheers, Bryan Pope From vance at neurotica.com Tue Dec 2 14:21:40 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <200312021840.NAA29293@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200312021840.NAA29293@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, der Mouse wrote: > > [...] a product called "Lime-Away". [...] The main ingediant is > > phosphoric acid > > How cheap is it? How does it compare to Coke, in particular? Coke has > sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric > acid in it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water rinse > afterwards.) The concentration of H3PO4 in Coke is significantly lower than in Lime-Away. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Tue Dec 2 14:22:39 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, chris wrote: > >How cheap is it? How does it compare to Coke, in particular? Coke has > >sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric > >acid in it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water rinse > >afterwards.) > > Myth Busters on TV did an episode about the myths of Coke. I was > surprised to see that it really DID clean battery terminals in a car > better than water. It also appeared to do a better job of cleaning > chrome than the chrome polish they tested against (they didn't say what > the brand was they tried). > > However, it didn't appear to do anything for degreasing an engine, or > disolving meat or teeth :-) It *does* dissolve pennies, and it *does* eat through paint. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Tue Dec 2 14:25:11 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Fred Cisin wrote: > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? No. Not in suspension. In solution. CO2 + H2O --> H2CO3 (Carbonic Acid) Just like: SO3 + H2O --> H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid) Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Tue Dec 2 14:26:32 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > I would guess that Coca Colas main tartness comes from Phosporic > acid so it must have a fair amount (PH 2.5 - 3) But Lime-Away has enough Phosphoric Acid to burn you with prolonged exposure. Coke doesn't. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Tue Dec 2 14:26:50 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <200312022008.PAA05211@wordstock.com> References: <200312022008.PAA05211@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Bryan Pope wrote: > > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? > > > > "Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup and/or glucose (formerly > > SUGAR), caramel color, natural flavors, phosphoric acid, and caffeine" > > even Jolt doesn't have much phosphoric acid. > > > > useless information: In Canada, all of the non-diet pop has sugar, not > high fructose corn syrup... Why? Peace... Sridhar From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Dec 2 14:27:54 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: from "vance@neurotica.com" at Dec 2, 03 03:26:50 pm Message-ID: <200312022027.PAA08859@wordstock.com> And thusly vance@neurotica.com spake: > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? > > > > > > "Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup and/or glucose (formerly > > > SUGAR), caramel color, natural flavors, phosphoric acid, and caffeine" > > > even Jolt doesn't have much phosphoric acid. > > > > > > > useless information: In Canada, all of the non-diet pop has sugar, not > > high fructose corn syrup... > > Why? > I am not sure... I was told once that it has something to do with protecting the local US natural sweetener industry. So it's probably cheaper to use the high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar here. Cheers, Bryan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 2 15:02:39 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001201c3b917$9eb2a500$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I sincerely hope this thread somehow turns to show it's relationship to classic computers :> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Fred Cisin" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 2:25 PM Subject: Re: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? > > No. Not in suspension. In solution. > > CO2 + H2O --> H2CO3 (Carbonic Acid) > > Just like: > > SO3 + H2O --> H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid) > > Peace... Sridhar > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 2 15:25:55 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401c3b91a$f5b73a20$5b01a8c0@athlon> > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, chris wrote: > > > >How cheap is it? How does it compare to Coke, in > particular? Coke > > >has sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of > > >phosophoric acid in it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water > > >rinse > > >afterwards.) > > > > Myth Busters on TV did an episode about the myths of Coke. I was > > surprised to see that it really DID clean battery terminals > in a car > > better than water. It also appeared to do a better job of cleaning > > chrome than the chrome polish they tested against (they didn't say > > what the brand was they tried). > > > > However, it didn't appear to do anything for degreasing an > engine, or > > disolving meat or teeth :-) > > It *does* dissolve pennies, and it *does* eat through paint. It also happily dissolves teeth - the standard "experiment" in primary schools here (in the UK) is to have kids bring in teeth (as they fall out naturally :-)) and leave them in a glass of coke for a few days (and have a control of a tooth in a glass of air there too). Tooth-in-coke looks pretty bad after a few days whereas tooth-in-air does not look much worse than when it started. Of course, a real experiment might want to test things like orange juice as well as coke but then we'd find that OJ is about as bad as coke. (Although I don't think OJ does anything for battery terminals - but then if you keep them coated in petroleum jelly you probably won't need to clean them in the first place). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Dec 2 15:41:49 2003 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:36 2005 Subject: CC-Talk sbscription problems / Pageing Jay West In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FCD152D.31136.F311219B@localhost> Jay, since it seams that may mails addressed to you account and the classiccomp maintainer account don't reach you, I try now sending this in-band. I still have these 'kick off' problems, now for the third time. Since there's nothing wrong with my mail account (except for the list bot nobody ever complained) it may point to a problem on your side. What also puzzles me is that this problem seams to occure always at the beginning of a month - now for the third time in a row. If I can get some more information about the aleged problems, I may try to help. Gruss H. ------------------------------------------------------ Jay, I have been again kicked off the list ... since the last Mail, directed at the included Maintainer address ( cctalk-owner@classiccmp.org ) did not work, now to your personal address. Since the Problem is still the same, I just add my last Mail: ------------------------------------------------------ Hi Jay, looks like there's something wrong. For one, I don't understand why the list thinks my mailbox bounces ... it might be helpful if the list robot would add the error message. Second, when I click the confirmation string, it tells me that this is already more than 3 Days old ... The Message is from the 5th, today is the 6th (in some parts of the US still the 5th), but the robot thinks it's already outdated ... (see below). This is now the second time it happenes, and I have no idea what I can do, except resubscribeing. Servus Hans ------------------------------------------------------ > Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to > excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated > 01-Dec-2003. You will not get any more messages from this list until > you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like > this before your membership in the list is deleted. > > To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message > (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/confirm/cctalk/26ec9197e427141f28548143ee89e863eb597386 > > > You can also visit your membership page at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk/hans.franke%40mch20.sbs.de > > > On your membership page, you can change various delivery options such > as your email address and whether you get digests or not. As a > reminder, your membership password is > > beaxxu > > If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the list owner > at > > cctalk-owner@classiccmp.org -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ken at fraserhouse.com Tue Dec 2 15:38:41 2003 From: ken at fraserhouse.com (Ken Campbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: DecWriter LA30 In-Reply-To: <2DD22D07248C76F615000007@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> References: <3FCB661F.6070904@tiac.net> Message-ID: <2DD3ABD2D2B71BB748410078@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Spotted a DecWriter LA 30 at the local surplus computer shop. Appears to be in good condition, though the plastic cowling is slightly yellowed. Includes original manual. Sticker price is $75 CDN (approx. $60 USD). If anyone is interested in the unit, I can take some photos this weekend, and give you their telephone number . Location is in Eastern Canada. Ken C. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 15:45:40 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202164540.007f2600@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:55 PM 12/2/03 -0500, you wrote: >>How cheap is it? How does it compare to Coke, in particular? Coke has >>sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric >>acid in it. (I'm assuming, of course, plenty of water rinse >>afterwards.) > >Myth Busters on TV did an episode about the myths of Coke. I was >surprised to see that it really DID clean battery terminals in a car >better than water. Coke does a good job of cleaning car battery terminals but those are lead-acid batteries and the corrosion products are entirely different from those produced by "dry-cell" batteries (alkaline, carbon-zinc, NiCad, etc). Dry cells use a weak oxidizer (Maganesse Dioxide) or an alkaline solution (Potassium hydroxide) as an eletrolyte where auto batteries use sluphuric acid. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 15:50:35 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202165035.007f2840@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:49 AM 12/2/03 -0800, you wrote: >What is the pH of Coke? > >> Coke has >> >sugar and caffiene mixed in, but also has a good deal of phosophoric >> >acid in it. >On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: >> I don't think coke has but a trace of phosphoric acid. I think the main >> ingrediant (besides water) is carbonic acid (CO2 and water). > >"carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? No, it's the reaction product between water and CO2. The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. carbonic acid H2CO3, a weak dibasic acid (see acids and bases) formed when carbon dioxide dissolves in water; it exists only in solution. Carbonic acid forms carbonate and bicarbonate (or acid carbonate) salts (see carbonate) by reaction with bases. It contributes to the sharp taste of carbonated beverages. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 15:53:21 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: References: <200312022008.PAA05211@wordstock.com> <200312022008.PAA05211@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202165321.007f2a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:26 PM 12/2/03 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? >> > >> > "Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup and/or glucose (formerly >> > SUGAR), caramel color, natural flavors, phosphoric acid, and caffeine" >> > even Jolt doesn't have much phosphoric acid. >> > >> >> useless information: In Canada, all of the non-diet pop has sugar, not >> high fructose corn syrup... > >Why? Probably because Canada grows more sugar beets (the main source of refined sugar) than corn. Joe From bmachacek at pcisys.net Tue Dec 2 16:11:15 2003 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer Message-ID: <002f01c3b921$37b0aa50$0200000a@xeon> I'd like to find out a little more about the IBM 5216 Wheelprinter I just received. What computers did it work with? There are only 2 female input connectors on the back, one is marked "T" and the other one "P". Anyone have information on the type of computers this unit was setup to work with? TIA for your responses. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Tue Dec 2 16:10:56 2003 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Cogito Systems? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031202221056.4CCB3412F9@server1.messagingengine.com> > They were apparently not too much of a factor in the HD game, as > they only made five different drive models ranging from 5mb to > 21mb, each was 5.25" full height, MFM, ST411/512 interface. > > - don > > Hmmm...That's odd. The one I traded was a half-height drive, but it did, quite plainly, say "Cogito Systems" on it. -- David Vohs netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 2 16:02:16 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: reply-to In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: reply-to" (Dec 2, 9:52) References: <200312021752.JAA02228@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10312022202.ZM7064@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 2, 9:52, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm not sure exactly what was happening. I looked > at the line this time and it included your address as > well as cctalk Yup, 'cuz I added a Reply-To: of my own, and then the list added the "cctalk" address. > The other time I didn't look at the reply line > so I'm not sure why it posted double but I suspect > that it had cctalk twice. Um, I'm not sure which message you're referring to. But the Reply-To: in the message you just posted (the one that this is a followup to) is: Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Your mailer is probably creating an initial Reply-to: like this: Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" and then the list software is adding the "cctalk" part. I think that's wrong, it should *replace* the original with the "cctalk". That's what used to happen. It's not a big deal for me though; I didn't mean to make a big fuss about it, I just noticed and wondered why. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 3 16:20:49 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <001201c3b917$9eb2a500$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 02 December 2003 21:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! > > > I sincerely hope this thread somehow turns to show it's relationship to > classic computers :> Sorry about that, but I've got a classic Pong to clean :) w From jvansickler at cox.net Tue Dec 2 17:30:14 2003 From: jvansickler at cox.net (jvansickler@cox.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home Message-ID: <20031202233006.FRIQ8432.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> The company I work for has a barely-used Cambridge Parallel Processing, Inc. DAP 610 that they'd like to get off their books. I've been the network admin here for 5 years, and it was not in use when I got here. It's in as-new condition, as far as I can tell. For an overview, see: http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/cpp/cpp.html#CPP http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/cpp/cpp.html#DAP http://carbon.cudenver.edu/csprojects/CSC5551/StudentWeb/Parallel_Programming_Group/review2.html We're located in Tucson, Arizona, US. Please contact me at mailto:vansickj-eodc@kaman.com if you're interested. Thanks, Jim Van Sickler From donm at cts.com Tue Dec 2 17:49:23 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > BTW if you've ever used Navel Jelly it leaves the same kind of finish. > The main ingrediant in Navel Jelly is phosphoric acid. I've tried using it > on electronics but it's difficult to remove since it's a gell. I had the > same problem with the gelled Lime-Away. Joe, unless you scraped it out of your belly-button it is NAVAL Jelly 8-^} - don From cukr at massnet1.net Tue Dec 2 17:57:57 2003 From: cukr at massnet1.net (Mike Cukr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer References: <002f01c3b921$37b0aa50$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <003201c3b930$1cbb1fa0$3e7dead8@d2e2y0> >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Machacek" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 5:11 PM >Subject: IBM 5216 printer > >I'd like to find out a little more about the IBM 5216 Wheelprinter I just received. What computers did it work with? There >are only 2 female input connectors on the back, one is marked "T" and the other one "P". Anyone have information on the >type of computers this unit was setup to work with? >TIA for your responses. > >Bill Machacek >Colo. Springs, CO > > Is that "P" possibly a "B"? Mike From donm at cts.com Tue Dec 2 18:15:27 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Cogito Systems? In-Reply-To: <20031202221056.4CCB3412F9@server1.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, David Vohs wrote: > > They were apparently not too much of a factor in the HD game, as > > they only made five different drive models ranging from 5mb to > > 21mb, each was 5.25" full height, MFM, ST411/512 interface. > > > > - don > > > > > > Hmmm...That's odd. The one I traded was a half-height drive, but it did, > quite plainly, say "Cogito Systems" on it. > -- > David Vohs > netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free > Fascinating! Three separate sources gave me the same information: TheREF Pocket PCRef 1993 Drive Specifications Guide (Drive Repair Services Corporation) Perhaps they were all looking over each other's shoulder :) - don From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Dec 2 13:33:29 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20031203003328.YJFZ8632.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is rust seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? I have similar situation a steel screw rusted tight in distributor's body, other screw I successfully removed. This two screws does have a job to hold on black plastic splash shield because the distributor is on front side of engine, shield deflects water spray away. Shield is missing and installing with it found from junkyard. The philips head isn't chewed up yet. This distributor in question is in the 1987 2.2L plymouth caravan. Oh does have primitive computer mostly to control three vacuum soleoids and advance/retard spark timing instead of mechanical means. Distributor has hall effect sensor btw. So it's almost on topic. :-) Finding another distributor is not easy because I looked enough to know that vehicles at junkyard isn't old enough to have this kind ditto to carb (holley 5220). :-( ) Those 'vans I looked had TBI 4 cyl 2.5L or 3.0L V6 mitsubishi engines. Oh to quell quips, the 84 to very early 87 distributors and later 2.2/2.5 distributors aren't same. Hall effect vanes is on rotor iteslf with vanes down on those like mine. Later ones has vanes mounted to the shaft pointing up with rotor seperate from it. Have to deal with what I have now. Cheers, Wizard From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Dec 2 18:46:03 2003 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Arnet smartport cards In-Reply-To: <20031202191053.40299.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031203004106.044e7530@pop.freeserve.net> At 11:10 02/12/2003 -0800, Naresh Chauhan wrote: >Hi Joe, > >I want Arnet smartport card and test in SCO Xenix. >If you please let me know > >thanks > >naresh Hello Naresh; you (apparently inadvertently) emailed an entire mailing list instead of the one person you replied to, however this may have been of benefit... I have a quantity of Arnet Smartports (and Arnet multiports) gathering dust at the office (assuming my boss hasn't yet chucked them...) What exactly do you need? I can probably also dig out the SCO drivers. I have no means to test them any more however. But if you want any, I'll get hold of them, and you can have for shipping + 10% (but I'm in the UK).. Regards Rob From cukr at massnet1.net Tue Dec 2 19:19:00 2003 From: cukr at massnet1.net (Mike Cukr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0><001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0><000801c3b870$e7e68cc0$5265ead8@d2e2y0> Message-ID: <016301c3b93b$6f667320$3e7dead8@d2e2y0> > Hmm. I am going by "Figure 5-7 Teletype Connections", which led me to > expect Relay+ to be connected to the relay, and to the cathode of a diode. > I expected Relay- to be connected to the anode, and also to a resistor, > which connects to the other side of the relay. It shows a capacitor across > the relay contacts, which also connect to the local switch and the reader > solenoid. > > I don't suppose I could prevail upon you to trace the connections/schematic > for me? > > Thanks! > > Vince > > It was just as you describe except the capacitor is a MOV on mine, except there was a 10mf cap across the relay coil, that micht have been a non-DEC FCO and from tha soldering job I know who did it. The relay is a reed relay marked as 12vdc coil and measured 328 ohms which works out to about 37ma. BTW the run relay is mounted on a small PCB mounted vertically near the left end of the keyboard assy. There are four wires that run back into the rats nest at the rear of the PS. Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 2 19:18:54 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <20031203003328.YJFZ8632.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20031203003328.YJFZ8632.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20031202170737.A70107@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, > Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is > rust seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? I don't recall ever working on a computer that had an aluminum distributor. The more common problem with steel screws into aluminum parts, such as drives, particularly if subjected to weather, etc., is for the head of the screw to rust, but the aluminum hole that it screws into to corrode. Usually the best approach is to get it out where you can work on it. A penetrating oil, OR COKE, if permitted to soak into the hole overnight will sometimes help loosen the grip. Then use tools that fit TIGHTLY to the head of the fastener (use 6 point not 12 point for hex), and DON'T use a #1 Phillips for #2 fasteners! If it is too late, and somebody has already buggered the head, then use Vis-Grips #5WR. If the head breaks off, anyway, then you'll need to drill out the broken fastener. If possible, use LEFT-HANDED drill bits - they will tend to loosen instead of further tighten the stub. Easy-Outs will sometimes work once it is drilled, but when the Easy-Out breaks off, then it REALLY gets fun. If you can't get the stub to unscrew out, then drill it out almost to the threads. Once you get it out, then gently run a tap down the hole to clean up the thread. Use a "Re-Threading" tap if possible. If you bugger up the hole, then put in a helicoil. If it is too far gone for a heli-coil, or needs more strength, use a nutsert. When you reassemble, get rid of all damaged fasteners, even if they "might still be good for one or two more times". Use an "anti-seize" compound on the new fastener when you reassemble, to reduce the binding for next time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Dec 2 19:18:15 2003 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive Message-ID: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> Found this in the rubble, and can't find diddly on the internet about it. ISTR it was tied into the floppy drive controller, and it has the 34 pin header that matches? No other identifying numbers, but I think it might be a DJ-20C. QIC-80 cartridge, maybe? I'd just like to see if it works with my Linux box here or not. Might just delegate to the junk Windoze box instead, if it does work. Any answers? Point me in the right direction, even if it is to the dumpster. LOL Gary Hildebrand St. JOseph, MO From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Dec 2 19:29:20 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home References: <20031202233006.FRIQ8432.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Message-ID: <00b901c3b93c$e6250cf0$0100a8c0@SONYDIGITALED> show me a picture of it! the visual is everything! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 4:30 PM Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home > The company I work for has a barely-used > Cambridge Parallel Processing, Inc. DAP 610 > that they'd like to get off their books. > > I've been the network admin here for 5 years, > and it was not in use when I got here. > It's in as-new condition, as far as I can tell. > > For an overview, see: > http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/cpp/cpp.html#CPP > http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/cpp/cpp.html#DAP > http://carbon.cudenver.edu/csprojects/CSC5551/StudentWeb/Parallel_Programming_Group/review2.html > > We're located in Tucson, Arizona, US. > > Please contact me at mailto:vansickj-eodc@kaman.com if you're interested. > > Thanks, > Jim Van Sickler > > > From vrs at msn.com Tue Dec 2 19:38:07 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0><001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0><000801c3b870$e7e68cc0$5265ead8@d2e2y0> <016301c3b93b$6f667320$3e7dead8@d2e2y0> Message-ID: > It was just as you describe except the capacitor is a MOV on mine, > except there was a 10mf cap across the relay coil, that micht have > been a non-DEC FCO and from tha soldering job I know who did > it. The relay is a reed relay marked as 12vdc coil and measured > 328 ohms which works out to about 37ma. BTW the run relay > is mounted on a small PCB mounted vertically near the left end > of the keyboard assy. There are four wires that run back into the > rats nest at the rear of the PS. Excellent. Not sure that capacitor is a good idea. The rest sounds similar to what I expected. For better or for worse, I just ordered the W076 replacement boards made. I had ordered the M452 replacements yesterday, and today the board shop said the files were OK for their equipment. Hopefully the same thing will happen with the W076 artwork (but more quickly -- I had to resubmit the silkscreen for the M452 replacement twice :-)). Vince From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 2 19:43:14 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Fred Cisin "Re: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries!" (Dec 2, 17:18) References: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20031203003328.YJFZ8632.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20031202170737.A70107@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10312030143.ZM7378@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 2, 17:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, > > Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is > > rust seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? > [...] > The more common problem with steel screws into aluminum parts, such as > drives, particularly if subjected to weather, etc., is for the head of the > screw to rust, but the aluminum hole that it screws into to corrode. > > Usually the best approach is to get it out where you can work on it. > A penetrating oil, OR COKE, if permitted to soak into the hole overnight > will sometimes help loosen the grip. Agreed -- don't use phosphoric acid because iron phosphate will gum up the hole just as badly as any rust. Penetrating oil (*not* WD40 -- the stuff we use over here is called PlusGas) is the best thing to try, or a mineral acid like hydrochloric acid if that fails. I'll snip the rest of Fred's excellent reply, except: > Then use tools that fit TIGHTLY to the head of the fastener (use 6 point > not 12 point for hex), and DON'T use a #1 Phillips for #2 fasteners! And in the UK/Europe, don't use a Phillips driver on a Pozidrive/SupaDriv screw, or vice-versa. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 2 19:52:18 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Dear Santa (was Re: Minicomputers I wouldn't mind having...) References: <1070349951.5187.35.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> Message-ID: <004d01c3b940$15bd5140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tom wrote..... > ...as if I need more things to do, I've always wanted a Nova 1200 or a > smallish General Automation machine, 8K/16K/32K core and a tty > interface. I have no desire for high-maintenance disk systems, though a > linc tape would be nice (used those with the DG before). While I do have most systems that I've wanted... there are just a few that I would still like to obtain but doubt I will ever find/afford: Microdata Reality (M1600 preferred, but a Royale would be great) Prime (Prefer blinkinlights, but a 2250 "rabbit" would fix the craving) Honeywell DPS-6 IBM System/3 IBM 360 or something "mini-ish" that can run VM, like a 4331 or 4341 Imsai 8080 Hey, I can dream :) Jay West From jismay at unixboxen.net Tue Dec 2 19:57:00 2003 From: jismay at unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive In-Reply-To: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> References: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> Message-ID: <61584.66.166.51.85.1070416620.squirrel@webmail.unixboxen.com> > Found this in the rubble, and can't find diddly on the internet about > it. > > ISTR it was tied into the floppy drive controller, and it has the 34 pin > header that matches? > > No other identifying numbers, but I think it might be a DJ-20C. QIC-80 > cartridge, maybe? > > I'd just like to see if it works with my Linux box here or not. Might > just delegate to the junk Windoze box instead, if it does work. > > Any answers? Point me in the right direction, even if it is to the > dumpster. LOL > > Gary Hildebrand > St. JOseph, MO Gary, For linux usage you need the ftape, floppy-tape driver, and then you can use standard mt commands. For windows... I believe that windows backup supports these drives, otherwise you can still find Colorado/HP Backup if you look around. If it is a 250MB drive, then you need AFAIR DC-2120 tapes. Good Luck, J Brian Ismay jismay@unixboxen.net ---------------------- To Sleep, Perchance to Dream. For in that sleep of death what dreams may come when we shuffle off this mortal coil must give us pause From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 2 19:59:22 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive References: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> Message-ID: <006301c3b941$129085e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Found this in the rubble, and can't find diddly on the internet about > it. I have full manuals for the drive, the software, and the optional FC-10 or was it FC-20 controller card. Matter of fact, I still have several of the drives, and at least one, maybe two - of the controller cards, and I also have all the software for it (several versions). > ISTR it was tied into the floppy drive controller, and it has the 34 pin > header that matches? All the drives worked with the floppy controller. However, the PC floppy controller was limited in throughput, so if you bought the optional "high speed" controller card, it would run several times faster. The high speed controller card was just a fancy floppy controller, but you couldn't hook floppies to it. > No other identifying numbers, but I think it might be a DJ-20C. QIC-80 > cartridge, maybe? QIC-80 is the format. The cartridge is DC2120. I have an entire bookshelf full of them - backups from when I ran a bbs for years. > I'd just like to see if it works with my Linux box here or not. Might > just delegate to the junk Windoze box instead, if it does work. I strongly suspect Linux would support it, but am not sure. You may have to build a custom kernel to add the device if it isn't already there. FreeBSD definitely supports it, but not sure if you have to build a customer kernel or if it's already there. Of course, DOS and Windows 95 support it just fine. > Any answers? Point me in the right direction, even if it is to the > dumpster. LOL Dumpster? What's that? From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 2 20:46:15 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: CC-Talk sbscription problems / Pageing Jay West References: <3FCD152D.31136.F311219B@localhost> Message-ID: <009e01c3b947$9f007610$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Hans.... Your emails have been getting to me, and I have been responding to them. And I got one or two that were your responses to my responses, so I'm suprised there is still an issue. I believe back when I looked at this a couple weeks ago, my mail server, or any one of about 10 other systems I tried, some on entirely different networks, could not telnet to your domains mail server (as per the MX record) on port 25. Your domain mail server did not respond. After so much of this, the list software automatically kills your subscription. I will try to dig into this a bit tomorrow and let you know what I find. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Cc: "Jay West" Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: CC-Talk sbscription problems / Pageing Jay West > Jay, > > since it seams that may mails addressed to you account > and the classiccomp maintainer > account don't reach you, I try now sending this in-band. > > I still have these 'kick off' problems, now for the third > time. Since there's nothing wrong with my mail account > (except for the list bot nobody ever complained) it may > point to a problem on your side. > > What also puzzles me is that this problem seams to occure > always at the beginning of a month - now for the third > time in a row. > > If I can get some more information about the aleged problems, > I may try to help. > > Gruss > H. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Jay, > > I have been again kicked off the list ... since the last Mail, directed at > the included Maintainer address ( cctalk-owner@classiccmp.org ) did not work, > now to your personal address. Since the Problem is still the same, I just > add my last Mail: > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Hi Jay, > > looks like there's something wrong. For one, I don't understand why > the list thinks my mailbox bounces ... it might be helpful if the > list robot would add the error message. Second, when I click the > confirmation string, it tells me that this is already more than 3 > Days old ... The Message is from the 5th, today is the 6th (in some > parts of the US still the 5th), but the robot thinks it's already > outdated ... (see below). This is now the second time it happenes, > and I have no idea what I can do, except resubscribeing. > > Servus > Hans > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Your membership in the mailing list cctalk has been disabled due to > > excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated > > 01-Dec-2003. You will not get any more messages from this list until > > you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like > > this before your membership in the list is deleted. > > > > To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message > > (leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/confirm/cctalk/26ec9197e427141f28548143ee89e863eb597386 > > > > > > You can also visit your membership page at > > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/options/cctalk/hans.franke%40mch20.sbs.de > > > > > > On your membership page, you can change various delivery options such > > as your email address and whether you get digests or not. As a > > reminder, your membership password is > > > > beaxxu > > > > If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the list owner > > at > > > > cctalk-owner@classiccmp.org > > > -- > VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 2 21:03:44 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <20031203003328.YJFZ8632.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031202220344.00803100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:33 PM 12/2/03 +0000, you wrote: >While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, > >Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is >rust seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? No, not really. The best thing for that is Break Free or some other kind of penetrating oil. > >I have similar situation a steel screw rusted tight in distributor's >body, other screw I successfully removed. This two screws does have >a job to hold on black plastic splash shield because the distributor >is on front side of engine, shield deflects water spray away. >Shield is missing and installing with it found from junkyard. The >philips head isn't chewed up yet. For things like this the best thing that I've found is is an impact screw driver with a GOOD fitting bit. An impact screwdriver is a screw driver with a heavy metal body with interchangeable bits. After you get the bit into the screw you hit the end of the screwdriver body with a good size hammer. The hammer blow drives the bit into the screw slot and helps prevents it from slipping and stripping the screw slot. The screwdriver also has a cam in it and when you hit it with a hammer the cam turns the bit with a lot more force than you could by hand. That will usually break the screw free. You can buy these at Sears or any decent tool supplier. I bought mine for about $20 at Sears about 15 years ago. Joe From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Dec 2 21:18:36 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive In-Reply-To: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Found this in the rubble, and can't find diddly on the internet about > it. > > ISTR it was tied into the floppy drive controller, and it has the 34 pin > header that matches? Yes. Or attached to a "high-speed" controller, which was just a souped-up, dedicated controller chip with a higher clock rate. > No other identifying numbers, but I think it might be a DJ-20C. QIC-80 > cartridge, maybe? QIC-80. > I'd just like to see if it works with my Linux box here or not. Might > just delegate to the junk Windoze box instead, if it does work. Yes, use the "ftape" driver. --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From vance at neurotica.com Tue Dec 2 21:50:30 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031202220344.00803100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202135519.007e1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202220344.00803100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > >While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, > > > >Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is rust > >seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? > > No, not really. The best thing for that is Break Free or some other > kind of penetrating oil. I use WD40. It's cheap. Peace... Sridhar From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Dec 2 21:55:26 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: webserver choice Message-ID: All, This is highly off-topic, but (imho) important enough to just send out anyway. I am moving the www.pdp11.nl site to a new server, for two reasons: - it is currently on one of our production servers, which must stop (for Dutch taxing reasons.) - it will be moved to the colo room of my isp, who have offered to host it to "help the good cause". yay! So.. new server, then. Since it's a DEC Archive, local friends have made sure I understood (...) how important it was that it'd run on Classic Hardware. Trust me, they've mentioned that to no end.... I ended up deciding on an Intel-based box, rather than a VAX or Alpha, mostly because the box has about 400GB of EIDE-based disk storage, which wont happen in a VAX. I decided against an Alpha for other reasons, so ended up with Intel. New machine is a Digital Server 1206, with (now) dual P2/333, but probably with faster CPU's as soon as I find them... the box can handle up to 533, which means it'll end with P2/466's. It has 512MB of RAM- the mainboard wont support more. Disk space is set up using a mirror volume of two 9GB disks off a Mylex DAC960 for the OS, and then a Promise EIDE controller for the four EIDE disks, which are in RAID5 configuration. No problems there. The real bitch seems to be the choice of which OS to run on it. I prefer OpenBSD for such jobs, but alas, that (a) wont do SMP, and (b), much worse, it doesnt support the Mylex. I just did a test install of Linux on it, and that works, so at least I can set it up. So.. remembering the "which OS" discussion earlier, I need a lean distro of Linux with no GUI crap, including all the stuff one'd need for a dedicated web server. Anyone here (Jay?) have put something together, or, much better, have added Mylex to OpenBSD? ? :) Please reply *off-list* , I will summarize later- we dont want a massive debate here. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Dec 2 21:57:09 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 09:50 PM, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > >>> While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, >>> >>> Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is rust >>> seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? >> >> No, not really. The best thing for that is Break Free or some other >> kind of penetrating oil. > > I use WD40. It's cheap. > > Peace... Sridhar > > Naval (as in Navy) Jelly? From dave at mitton.com Tue Dec 2 23:08:09 2003 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: FA: Vector S-100 proto board and backplane In-Reply-To: <200312021803.hB2I3FVt000641@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031203000611.03228c90@getmail.mitton.com> For auction on eBay: Vector S-100 prototype board and S-100 backplane http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3444869537 Dave. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 2 23:59:20 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: More for sale, little money Message-ID: Thanks to all that responded already. Sorry I had to turn some of you down - G727s seem to be hot items. Anyway, I have a pair of hardcover books from Apple - ProDOS 8 Technical Reference Manual (1982, 83, and 87 dates, Addison Wesley), and BASIC Programming with ProDOS (same dates, same publisher). Pretty good condition - with the dust sleeves. Anyway, anyone want this pair for $3.00 plus shipping? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mbg at TheWorld.com Tue Dec 2 18:20:57 2003 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50 Message-ID: <200312030020.TAA9370292@shell.TheWorld.com> >Yes, a KFQSA controller creates up to three MSCP controllers; >one for each device connected (in my VAX 4705A, which only HAS >three drives.. it may support the full 7 drives..) It does... I've done it (back when I was doing some work on having KFQSA in a qbus pdp-11 and running RT-11 on the disks it was attached to). >also using that address, indeed. Most KFQSA's are configured >to allocate as many controllers as needed, with the first one >sitting at the MSCP-default address, soo.. They don't allocate addresses as you put disks on... you have to configure the board using the SET HOST command on a uVaxIII (which is what I did). I think you have to set the board to a specific address to program it first, and once programmed you set it back to the normal use address (there is a 4-switch switchpak on the board) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Dec 3 00:47:59 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: FA: Vector S-100 proto board and backplane In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031203000611.03228c90@getmail.mitton.com> References: <200312021803.hB2I3FVt000641@huey.classiccmp.org> <5.2.1.1.2.20031203000611.03228c90@getmail.mitton.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031202224644.04d9acf0@mail.zipcon.net> speaking of vectors..... my roommate has 2 vector 4 workstations, one has a HD and boots to the OS. he's looking at selling them, probably on ebay. if anyone has interest, email me and I'll see that your questions get answered. At 09:08 PM 12/2/03, you wrote: >For auction on eBay: > >Vector S-100 prototype board and S-100 backplane >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3444869537 > >Dave. > > From asholz at topinform.com Wed Dec 3 01:24:40 2003 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCD8FB8.5020204@topinform.com> Let's start a project to develop a black-box for ST506, SMD and ... replacement! We need some hardware freaks on one side and of course some software freaks too. Similar stuff has been done. Have a look at: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ Andreas Tony Duell wrote: >>On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 16:32, Andreas Holz wrote: >> >> >>>Hello all, >>> >>>I would like to see a substitution of the now rapidly dying >>>MFM/SMD-disks. I would appreciate if I could swap out a defective >>>Maxtor-XT/ drive, and an IDE-drive into my Symbolics or PDP simply by >>>connecting the "black-box" to the existing cables. >>> >>> >>Agreed. Or given the capacity of modern (ish) IDE/SCSI drives versus old >>hardware, being able to host several virtual drives on one physical one >>would be interesting, not waste drive space, and make it trivial to back >>systems up. >> >>Several machines' drive controllers could be interfaced across a network >>to one host. The "black-boxes" would talk ST506 on one side and ethernet >>on the other, say. >> >> > >I'd rather have one interface/drive per system. It could probably fit in >place of the existing drive (certainly on machines like the PERQ where >there's plenty of space round the hard disk), and would mean the machine >stays self-contained. > > > >>Interesting idea anyway... but given the nature of ST506 is it feasible? >>Doesn't ST506 have analogue elements to the interface, and a tight >> >> > >All the signals on the interface connectors are digital, but the data is >the 'raw' data from the head, not packed into nice sectors and bytes >(doing that is the job of the controller). So the timing is, to some >extent, analogue. > >However, suppose the data rate is something like 5MHz (I think that's >right for ST506). If you sampled the data output from the controller at, >say, 50MHz, wrote the pattern of 0's and 1's to the new hard disk (OK, >very wasteful of disk space, but then we're proposing replacing a 20Mbyte >sisk with a 20Gbyte one or something :-)), and then turned the data on >the new disk back into a 50MHz signal that you fed back to the >controller, I think it would work. Might be interesting to try, anyway... > >-tony > > > > From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Dec 3 02:03:59 2003 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing Message-ID: <001b01c3b974$01bcef50$0200a8c0@Evelyn> Hi, Does anyone have the June 1977 issue of Byte Magazine (vol 2 issue 6)? There are two articles in there that I'd like to get a scan or copy of: "Interfacing the IBM Selectric Keyboard Printer" and "A 6800 Selectric IO Printer Program". If anyone has this issue and can scan or copy and mail the articles, I'd really appreciate it. Contact me on- or off list. Thanks, Brian From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 3 02:23:03 2003 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive In-Reply-To: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> References: <3FCD39D7.43B604AB@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Found this in the rubble, and can't find diddly on the internet about > it. > > ISTR it was tied into the floppy drive controller, and it has the 34 pin > header that matches? > > No other identifying numbers, but I think it might be a DJ-20C. QIC-80 > cartridge, maybe? > > I'd just like to see if it works with my Linux box here or not. Might > just delegate to the junk Windoze box instead, if it does work. > > Any answers? Point me in the right direction, even if it is to the > dumpster. LOL There were two major versions of these drives. The earlier one had a 34 position card edge connector, and I believe can be connected to the floppy controller with just a standard floppy cable (before the twist). The later version of the drive uses a right angle header, and needs a special cable that changes up the signal lines a little. If your drive is the later type, I'll see if I can find my old drive to check that special cable. -Toth From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 3 02:33:40 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson "Re: seized screws rust or whatever was: leaky batteries!" (Dec 2, 21:57) References: Message-ID: <10312030833.ZM7659@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 2, 21:57, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 09:50 PM, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > > > >>> While everybody else is talking about cleaning up the leakers, > >>> > >>> Is this chemical is good use to dissolve rust on steel screw is rust > >>> seized in the potmetal or aluminum distributor? > >> > >> No, not really. The best thing for that is Break Free or some other > >> kind of penetrating oil. > > > > I use WD40. It's cheap. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > Naval (as in Navy) Jelly? No, Naval Jelly (or phosphoric acid) is what was originally mentioned. It won't penetrate into the threads of a tightly-fitting screw, and if it did, the phosphate it left behind would be almost as bad as the rust. Break Free isn't a penetrating oil, it's a lubricant with PTFE in suspension. WD40 isn't nearly as effective as a proper penetrating oil. It will *prevent* rust but not remove it -- it's a water displacer. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Dec 3 02:52:59 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer Message-ID: <156.28eabdeb.2cfefe6b@aol.com> IIRC the IBM DisplayWriter. The cables were thin and came to a non standard D sub 9 pin. There was a cut sheet feeder that might plug into the other port. It has been a long time. I think the System 23 also may have connected to that printer also. There weren't many IBM daisywheel printers. I had a lot of those go through my hands about 15 years ago. Paxton Astoria, OR From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 3 02:55:11 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200312030904.EAA11532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [cisin@xenosoft.com] > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? [vance@neurotica.com] > No. Not in suspension. In solution. It's not quite a solution in the usual sense of the word. More like a reaction product - but it's one which is fairly close to balanced energically and thus can run either way with relative ease, either H2O+CO2->H2CO3 or H2CO3->H2O+CO2. (Most reactions run both ways in theory, but with a large energy difference that makes it easy to run one way and hard the other. An example is NaOH+HCl = H2O+NaCl+heat, with the "heat" term large enough, especially compared to the activation energy, that it's _hard_ to make salt water disassociate into caustic soda and hydrochloric acid.) Amazing where things can go when you start talking about, oh, say, cleaning up after leaky batteries. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Dec 3 03:16:00 2003 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> <200312030904.EAA11532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <002401c3b97e$11ddeb00$2201a8c0@finans> From: "der Mouse" > Amazing where things can go when you start talking about, oh, say, > cleaning up after leaky batteries. Yeah, it's almost as "bad" as in alt.folklore.computers, where off-topic (rather: thread drift) is the rule. All those old farts (including me) must have lots of time on their hands :-) Nico From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Dec 3 03:14:46 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home Message-ID: <1d2.1565079d.2cff0386@aol.com> I think this is worth saving. To quote one of the referenced Docs: > > >> These machines were built by Cambridge Parallel Processing Inc. >> (formerly Actime Memory Technology Ltd.) The Gamma II was based on Distributed >> Array processor (DAP) technology. These SIMD machines utilize Processing >> Elements (PEs) combined with 8-bit coprocessor for floating point speedup. As is >> typical of SIMD architectures, the PEs are controlled by a Master Control >> Unit (MCU) that reads instructions from a separate code store. This processor >> doubles as a scalar processor. The DAP 500 has 32X32 PEs = 1024 that are >> clocked at 10MHz. The DAP models operate according to a 100ns cycle time. >> This machine supports variable length matrix operations. >> The DAP 610 has 64X64 PEs....10MHz > >> >> >> Parallel Fortran (FORTRAN-PLUS) is supported, a goal is to support Fortran >> 90 and Parallel C. >> >> >> >> These systems seem to be very typical of the SIMD architectures studied in >> class. Note from above the presence of a MCU. The PEs are said to each >> have its own part of an array memory ? sounds like a distributed memory system. >> >> >> >> These machines seem to have been built in 1988. The DAP Gamma was released >> in 1997. The company?s home page did not respond, yet data sheets were >> available for their computers (Hmmm). At the time that the web document was >> written (1998), there were 115 DAPS installed worldwide. I expect that these >> machines are still in use. >> >> >> >> These machines were geared for large-scale signal and image processing. >> Other applications include molecular modeling and fluid flow. Fast text data >> base searching seems to be a market area that they have had some other >> success in. >> >> >> >> The host or front end determines the OS, typically Unix or VMS. The host >> is typically a Sun workstation. >> >> >> >> Current works invovles a HiPPI interface. The DAP utilizes a high speed >> data channel that supports transfers at rates up to 70Mbyte/Sec. Transfers >> between memory and processors varies between models but is between 1280 >> Mbyte/Sec and 5120 Mbyte/Sec. >> >> >> >> This is a true SIMD machine. >> >> >> > I want I want but it is not possible. Someone should save this. It is a full rack mount system that uses either a Sun workstation or a VAX as a front end. Connects by SCSI and uses the front end OS, nice. Paxton Astoria, OR From cheri-post at web.de Wed Dec 3 04:25:37 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: KFQSA docs and MDM (was RE: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50) Message-ID: <200312031025.hB3APbQ19852@mailgate5.cinetic.de> > They don't allocate addresses as you put disks on... you have to > configure the board using the SET HOST command on a uVaxIII > (which is what I did). I think you have to set the board to a > specific address to program it first, and once programmed you set > it back to the normal use address (there is a 4-switch switchpak > on the board) > Megan, do you know the jumper settings for the KFQSA ? Or anyone else ? Yesterday I did another try. The KDA50 works now at address 172150, with the KFQSA removed. The command "show qbus" finally lists the controller. Antonio named I link for KFQSA documents but they don't have documents online for it. How do I have to set jumpers for this board? My VAX4000 found the RA-92, attached to the KDA (DUA0). The userguide of the KDA50 refers to a programm called MDM in order to do some diagnostics with the KDA and FORMAT the harddrive. My idea is to boot NetBSD over Ethernet and install it on the RA-92 (there are no other drives installed in the VAX!). Can BSD find the drive directly, format it and be installed on it, or do I have to need a special programm as MDM to format the drive? Pierre ______________________________________________________________________________ WEB.DE FreeMail wird 5 Jahre jung! Feiern Sie mit uns und nutzen Sie die neuen Funktionen http://f.web.de/features/?mc=021130 From asholz at topinform.com Wed Dec 3 04:19:38 2003 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:37 2005 Subject: DEC S11 (PDP11) at Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCDB8BA.7040007@topinform.com> I just talked to the seller. He says, it's a DEC clone made by Taylorix. So, ist it really a DEC? Andreas Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > > > >>Check out this auction at Ebay-Germany: >> >>http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2769537250&category=15403 >> >>The seller sais that it's a Mainframe of the PDP11-family, but I've >>never seen such a thing. >> >> > >It has very classic Robotron styling. Robotron was an East German company >that made computers based on cloned Western technology. Robotron produced >an entire line of PDP11 clone hardware. This looks to me like a Robotron >system (I could be wrong). > > > From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Dec 3 04:45:09 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: KFQSA docs and MDM (was RE: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50) In-Reply-To: <200312031025.hB3APbQ19852@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Megan, do you know the jumper settings for the KFQSA ? Although I'm not as sweet as Megan, > Or anyone else ? oh.. this would apply though :) > Yesterday I did another try. > The KDA50 works now at address 172150, with the KFQSA removed. The command "show qbus" > finally lists the controller. Yay! > Antonio named I link for KFQSA documents but they don't have documents online for it. > How do I have to set jumpers for this board? You dont have to, all programming is done in software. But, since you asked: http://www.pdp11.nl/Documentation/NewMDS/VOL002/0346.pdf > My VAX4000 found the RA-92, attached to the KDA (DUA0). OK. > The userguide of the KDA50 refers to a programm called MDM in order to do some diagnostics with the KDA and FORMAT the harddrive. > My idea is to boot NetBSD over Ethernet and install it on the RA-92 (there are no other drives installed in the VAX!). > Can BSD find the drive directly, format it and be installed on it, or do I have to need a special programm as MDM to format the drive? It can just install it. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Dec 3 05:41:17 2003 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing References: <001b01c3b974$01bcef50$0200a8c0@Evelyn> Message-ID: <008701c3b992$5d557030$1000a8c0@winxpsp1a2100> I should have it, since my collection started in March 1977. I think I even vaguely remember the article. Unfortunately, it's in a box that is buried under a big pile of stuff in the back of my closet, and I don't have time to fetch it out tonight. I should be able to find in in the next couple of days, though. --Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Knittel" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:03 AM Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing > Hi, > Does anyone have the June 1977 issue of Byte Magazine > (vol 2 issue 6)? There are two articles in there that I'd like to get a scan > or copy of: "Interfacing the IBM Selectric Keyboard Printer" and > "A 6800 Selectric IO Printer Program". If anyone has this issue and can > scan or copy and mail the articles, I'd really appreciate it. Contact me on- > or off list. > > Thanks, > Brian From kiers at original.xs4all.nl Wed Dec 3 07:05:34 2003 From: kiers at original.xs4all.nl (Bert Kiers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 manual Message-ID: <20031203130534.GY4180@janeway.boppelans.net> Hi Mark, In http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-November/004634.html I see you're looking for an Emulex UC04 manual. Did you find it? If you have it available electronically, can I please have a copy? The reason I ask is that I just bought a PDP11/73 and have a problem getting 2.11BSD installed. See http://original.xs4all.nl/elfje/ TIA, -- Bert Kiers, !MCSE && 0xFF, frique d'ordinateur From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 3 07:28:53 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: KFQSA docs and MDM (was RE: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50) In-Reply-To: <200312031025.hB3APbQ19852@mailgate5.cinetic.de> References: <200312031025.hB3APbQ19852@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <20031203132853.GD10837@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:25:37AM +0100, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Megan, do you know the jumper settings for the KFQSA ? > Or anyone else ? http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vax_vms_dssi_notes.html > My idea is to boot NetBSD over Ethernet and install it on the RA-92 > (there are no other drives installed in the VAX!). > Can BSD find the drive directly, format it and be installed on it, > or do I have to need a special programm as MDM to format the drive? It should just work, if SDI disks don't need a low level format prior to OS install. Unfortunately I don't own any SDI equipment. Only a KFQSA + DSSI disks besides SMD and ESDI MSCP controlers. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 3 09:14:11 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Cipher 8xx parts References: <200312030020.TAA9370292@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <00a101c3b9b0$1bc0aae0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I have a Cipher 891 cachetape 1600/3200 on the east coast for parts for anyone willing to get it/ship it. Otherwise I'll probably savage (a lossy salvage) it. I got it in stated nonworking condition. Sure enough, it complains mightily through its statuslights. Mechanically it's in great shape. John A. From MGemeny at pgcps.org Wed Dec 3 09:22:50 2003 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: A SIMH Attach question. Message-ID: Greetings all, Is there a way to change device attachments without stopping the simulation? This would be quite helpful in a time sharing environment for handling virtual printouts, virtual paper tapes, and virtual magnetic tapes. Thanks in advance, Mike. From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Wed Dec 3 09:29:03 2003 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: A SIMH Attach question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCE013F.7060804@retrobbs.org> I have another (which might be stupid) question about SimH. Is there anyway to easilly script keyboard entries *after* the simulation starts. I'd love to be able to bring up my PDP 11/70 emulator without any keyboard input. Did I mention you can play Adventure and Dungeon from my BBS -- the BBS creates a RSTS/E account for you, and logs you on automatically. Everything is automated, with menus, for the Hard of RSTS. telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323 Take Care, Mark Mike Gemeny wrote: >Greetings all, > >Is there a way to change device attachments without stopping the simulation? > >This would be quite helpful in a time sharing environment for handling >virtual printouts, virtual paper tapes, and virtual magnetic tapes. > >Thanks in advance, > >Mike. > > > > > > > > > -- "I want to share something with you: The three little sentences that will get you through life. Number 1: Cover for me. Number 2: Oh, good idea, Boss! Number 3: It was like that when I got here." -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Dec 3 09:36:32 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 manual In-Reply-To: <20031203130534.GY4180@janeway.boppelans.net> References: <20031203130534.GY4180@janeway.boppelans.net> Message-ID: <20031203153632.GA4445@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:05:34PM +0100, Bert Kiers wrote: > The reason I ask is that I just bought a PDP11/73 and have a problem > getting 2.11BSD installed. See http://original.xs4all.nl/elfje/ I see you've found a somewhat-common chicken-and-the-egg problem while trying to load 2BSD on your box. Have you examined "vttape"? It's a virtual tape program that lets you force-feed a PDP-11 via a PeeCee over the console port. I haven't used it, but from what other people say about it, it's probably the least-additional-hardware-intensive way to go. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Dec-2003 15:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -16.1 F (-26.8 C) Windchill -54.7 F (-48.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.5 kts Grid 058 Barometer 696.4 mb (10014. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Dec 3 09:59:40 2003 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Transputer box with 4 transputers on ebay Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847803673881@exchange.olf.com> Hi, Another auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3445280936&category=3666 This one has 4 CSA TEK boards on its own backplane. Really cool. Have too many of these, so I am not bidding on this. Ships worldwide... Ram ? 2003 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Dec 3 09:57:18 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: A SIMH Attach question. In-Reply-To: <3FCE013F.7060804@retrobbs.org> References: <3FCE013F.7060804@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <200312031057.18618.jcwren@jcwren.com> As long as we're adding to the SIMH wishlist, I'd like a user settable option to change the escape character (or even disable it). Control-E is used in WordMaster under CP/M to move the cursor up. I ended up patching SIMH to use ^\, since that's more infrequently used. You can type './z80 myscript' and have it execute a script off the command line. Not sure if that helps you or not. --jc On Wednesday 03 December 2003 10:29 am, Mark Firestone wrote: > I have another (which might be stupid) question about SimH. Is there > anyway to easilly script keyboard entries *after* the simulation > starts. I'd love to be able to bring up my PDP 11/70 emulator without > any keyboard input. > > Did I mention you can play Adventure and Dungeon from my BBS -- the BBS > creates a RSTS/E account for you, and logs you on automatically. > Everything is automated, with menus, for the Hard of RSTS. > > telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323 > > Take Care, > > Mark > > Mike Gemeny wrote: > >Greetings all, > > > >Is there a way to change device attachments without stopping the > > simulation? > > > >This would be quite helpful in a time sharing environment for handling > >virtual printouts, virtual paper tapes, and virtual magnetic tapes. > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Mike. From MGemeny at pgcps.org Wed Dec 3 10:39:59 2003 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: A SIMH Attach question. Message-ID: JC, I can help with that one. The SIMH docs state: " 3.7.2 User Specified Stop Conditions Typing the interrupt character stops simulation. The interrupt character is defined by the WRU (where are you) register and is initially set to 005 (^E)." If I do a "E WRU" I get "WRU: 005: If I tell SIMH "D WRU 007" that changes the interrupt from ^E to ^G. I hope this is what you are looking for. Mike. From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Dec 3 11:15:40 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: A SIMH Attach question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312031215.40491.jcwren@jcwren.com> Ah, cool. I looked through the code again, and now I see how it works. Previously I was looking at sim_int_char, and never saw it on the left side of an operation. I see now that it's actually being used to setup a signal handler, and the CPU implementations are responsible for changing it. It appeared to be more or less a compile time constant when I first looked at it. I have to admit to not having put a lot of effort at the time into finding it. I was getting *so* pissed off at hitting control-e to move up a line in WM and kept dropping into SIMH, and all I wanted to do was get a Forth image compiled so I could boot the SBC. --jc On Wednesday 03 December 2003 11:39 am, Mike Gemeny wrote: > JC, > > I can help with that one. The SIMH docs state: > > " 3.7.2 User Specified Stop Conditions > > Typing the interrupt character stops simulation. The interrupt character > is defined by the WRU (where are you) register and is initially set to > 005 (^E)." > > If I do a "E WRU" I get "WRU: 005: > > If I tell SIMH "D WRU 007" that changes the interrupt from ^E to ^G. > > I hope this is what you are looking for. > > Mike. From Antman692 at aol.com Wed Dec 3 11:33:09 2003 From: Antman692 at aol.com (Antman692@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: PageBrush 256 Message-ID: I have a PageBrush 256 hand held scanner. My question is what kind of pc card do I need? antman692@aol.com thanks From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 3 12:37:24 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home Message-ID: <200312031837.hB3IbOEu016395@spies.com> > I think this is worth saving. I used a similar DAP at Apple in the late 80s Have tried to contact him, but haven't received a reply. I don't think CHM has one, and it is worth preserving. From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 3 12:41:50 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive Message-ID: <200312031841.hB3Ifovq017194@spies.com> QIC-80 is the format. The cartridge is DC2120. I have an entire bookshelf full of them - backups from when I ran a bbs for years. -- If you care about what's on them, read them before all of the pinch rollers on your drives turn to goo. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 3 12:49:52 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries!" (Dec 3, 3:55) References: <3.0.6.32.20031202103416.0087b470@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20031202141639.0088baf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20031202113018.G57431@newshell.lmi.net> <200312030904.EAA11532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10312031849.ZM8140@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 3:55, der Mouse wrote: > [cisin@xenosoft.com] > > "carbonic acid" is water with CO2 in suspension?? > > [vance@neurotica.com] > > No. Not in suspension. In solution. > > It's not quite a solution in the usual sense of the word. More like a > reaction product - but it's one which is fairly close to balanced > energically and thus can run either way with relative ease, either > H2O+CO2->H2CO3 or H2CO3->H2O+CO2. (Most reactions run both ways in > theory, but with a large energy difference that makes it easy to run > one way and hard the other. An example is NaOH+HCl = H2O+NaCl+heat, > with the "heat" term large enough, especially compared to the > activation energy, that it's _hard_ to make salt water disassociate > into caustic soda and hydrochloric acid.) Well if we're being picky, then I'd say it *is* a solution in the normal sense of the word. Carbonic acid is a very weak acid, and the reaction is firmly in favour of a predominance of CO2 in solution. For the rest, CO2 and water each dissociate just like any inorganic compound in water. You don't really form H2CO3, you form 2 x H+ and CO3--. Similarly, when you have salt water, you have Na+ and Cl-, plus a few hydrogen and hydroxyl ions, not "molecules" of NaCl. It's not *that* hard to turn it into NaOH; a 1.5V battery[1] will add electrons, cause hydrogen to be given off, liberating chlorine as well, and what's left is Na+ and OH-. See, we're back to electrons again :-) [1] Yes, I know it's a single cell, not a battery :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rhudson at cnonline.net Wed Dec 3 12:52:47 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Moving to MO In-Reply-To: <20030623141740.17789.qmail@xpres.ccp.com> Message-ID: On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 09:17 AM, Gary Dean Hildebrand wrote: > Ron Hudson writes: >> I am moving from San Jose, CA to Kansas City, MO Is there anyplace >> like Weird Stuff? Mike Quinn? or the like? > > We have a few places, but they're drying up fast. > Surplus Exchange, in the west bottoms > My favorite is Kansas Computer Recyclers in Topeka, which is about 65 > miles W of KC. > Let me know when you get to KC, I'm just an hour's drive away. > Gary Hildebrand > St. Joseph, MO > Hey Gary, I'm here. currently in blue springs MO. From vance at neurotica.com Wed Dec 3 12:58:26 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: OT: webserver choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > The real bitch seems to be the choice of which OS to run on it. I prefer > OpenBSD for such jobs, but alas, that (a) wont do SMP, and (b), much > worse, it doesnt support the Mylex. NetBSD both does SMP and supports the DAC960. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 3 13:03:36 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive References: <200312031841.hB3Ifovq017194@spies.com> Message-ID: <002e01c3b9d0$277326e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Al wrote..... > If you care about what's on them, read them before all of the pinch > rollers on your drives turn to goo. Yeah, I already burned them all to CD too. Over 10 years of running a high activity file based BBS, all comitted to CD. Well, except a few tapes of Jpegs that I really dont care about ;) So if anyone needs old PC software from the late 70's through the 80's, let me know, I probably have every version :) Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 3 13:04:42 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: OT: webserver choice References: Message-ID: <003401c3b9d0$4ef7baa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> It was written.... > > OpenBSD for such jobs, but alas, that (a) wont do SMP, and (b), much > > worse, it doesnt support the Mylex. > > NetBSD both does SMP and supports the DAC960. FreeBSD does SMP well, has for many years. Also supports the DAC960 just fine. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Dec 3 13:12:24 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive In-Reply-To: <002e01c3b9d0$277326e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Jay West wrote: > So if anyone needs old PC software from the late 70's through the 80's, let > me know, I probably have every version :) Obviously, we want those jpgs, jay... --f From cukr at massnet1.net Wed Dec 3 13:23:13 2003 From: cukr at massnet1.net (Mike Cukr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: W076/M452 replacement cards References: <005b01c3b4f8$bff80f20$47e36742@d2e2y0><001001c3b859$f6726c80$5265ead8@d2e2y0><000801c3b870$e7e68cc0$5265ead8@d2e2y0><016301c3b93b$6f667320$3e7dead8@d2e2y0> Message-ID: <019801c3b9d2$e5f7d140$8662ead8@d2e2y0> --snip-- > > Excellent. Not sure that capacitor is a good idea. The rest sounds similar I didn't thinks so either, so I removed it...most likely should have been a .01 mf...or was a 'fix' for a problem with the host. I spent a year removing this guys 'fixes' and then correcting the original problem. > > For better or for worse, I just ordered the W076 replacement boards made. I > had ordered the M452 replacements yesterday, and today the board shop said > the files were OK for their equipment. Hopefully the same thing will happen > with the W076 artwork (but more quickly -- I had to resubmit the silkscreen > for the M452 replacement twice :-)). > > Vince > Glad to hear that, I look foward to seeing the finished boards. Mike From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Dec 3 13:33:14 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:38 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 manual In-Reply-To: <20031203153632.GA4445@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:05:34PM +0100, Bert Kiers wrote: > > The reason I ask is that I just bought a PDP11/73 and have a problem > > getting 2.11BSD installed. See http://original.xs4all.nl/elfje/ > > I see you've found a somewhat-common chicken-and-the-egg problem while > trying to load 2BSD on your box. Have you examined "vttape"? It's > a virtual tape program that lets you force-feed a PDP-11 via a PeeCee > over the console port. VTserver, that should probably read? :) > I haven't used it, but from what other people say about it, it's probably > the least-additional-hardware-intensive way to go. Yes, that is what it does. It assists in getting *something* onto the bare iron, using the console serial link (which is obviously always there). This is slow (usually, 9600bps or less..) but: it *does* let you install things. Bert: contact me off-list for a phone chat. --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 3 13:42:53 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home In-Reply-To: <1d2.1565079d.2cff0386@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 3, 3 04:14:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 607 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031203/da555579/attachment.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Dec 3 14:29:30 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home Message-ID: <19b.1e0e5a03.2cffa1aa@aol.com> In a message dated 12/3/03 12:16:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > At the back is a single slot (looks to be VME, but I wouldn't put > money on it) contains a parallel interface card that links to a DR11-W > type interface in the host. Not SCSI. Maybe some later ones were SCSI, > though Tony is right. SCSI is for a Sun connection. VAX is different. Following is more from the referenced docs: Each node of the machine effectively consists of a single bit processor, optional floating point accelerator and node memory. The DAP 510 is small enough to fit under a desk, while the DAP 610 is housed in a standard EIA rack cabinet. Both DAP models can be hosted by Sun or DEC VAX computers and workstations. The DAP can be connected to a Sun host via the SCSI interface. Connection to DEC VAX systems is via DR11W or DRB32 interfaces. Connection to the Aptec IOC is supported as well as direct connection to VME bus. DAP 510 DAP 610 Array size 32 x 32 64 x 64 Array memory 8 Mbytes 16 Mbytes (max. of 128 or 512 Mbytes) Code store 512 Kbytes 512 Kbytes (max. of 4 Mbytes) Instruction rate 10 MHz 10 MHz host Sun or VAX Sun or VAX Size 17 x 13 x 20 in. 45 x 25 x 38 in. The present DAP systems are third-generation machines which started with a 64 x 64 array originally installed at QMC (Queen Mary College, University of London). The QMC machine, which had an effective cycle time of 250 nsec, proved highly adaptable to a wide range of numerical problems based on partial differential equations. The performance on large-scale Monte Carlo simulations in lattice gauge theory and molecular dynamics was found to be exceptional and, in some specialized applications such as the Ising model, the DAP outperformed a CRAY-1 by a factor of 10. From mcwood at t-online.de Wed Dec 3 15:25:07 2003 From: mcwood at t-online.de (marc holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 manual In-Reply-To: <200312031804.hB3I4XVw010882@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi Bert, A nice guy from the list sent me a PDF. It's basically 80mb. Do you know a place were I could upload it ? Or I could send you a copy on cd to your home adress. Cheers, Marc Hi Mark, In http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-November/004634.html I see you're looking for an Emulex UC04 manual. Did you find it? If you have it available electronically, can I please have a copy? The reason I ask is that I just bought a PDP11/73 and have a problem getting 2.11BSD installed. See http://original.xs4all.nl/elfje/ TIA, -- Bert Kiers, !MCSE && 0xFF, frique d'ordinateur ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:28:53 +0100 From: Jochen Kunz Subject: Re: KFQSA docs and MDM (was RE: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20031203132853.GD10837@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 11:25:37AM +0100, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Megan, do you know the jumper settings for the KFQSA ? > Or anyone else ? http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vax_vms_dssi_notes.html > My idea is to boot NetBSD over Ethernet and install it on the RA-92 > (there are no other drives installed in the VAX!). > Can BSD find the drive directly, format it and be installed on it, > or do I have to need a special programm as MDM to format the drive? It should just work, if SDI disks don't need a low level format prior to OS install. Unfortunately I don't own any SDI equipment. Only a KFQSA + DSSI disks besides SMD and ESDI MSCP controlers. -- tsch|_, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:14:11 -0500 From: "John Allain" Subject: Cipher 8xx parts To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <00a101c3b9b0$1bc0aae0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have a Cipher 891 cachetape 1600/3200 on the east coast for parts for anyone willing to get it/ship it. Otherwise I'll probably savage (a lossy salvage) it. I got it in stated nonworking condition. Sure enough, it complains mightily through its statuslights. Mechanically it's in great shape. John A. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:36:32 -0500 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Emulex UC04 manual To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20031203153632.GA4445@bos7.spole.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 02:05:34PM +0100, Bert Kiers wrote: > The reason I ask is that I just bought a PDP11/73 and have a problem > getting 2.11BSD installed. See http://original.xs4all.nl/elfje/ I see you've found a somewhat-common chicken-and-the-egg problem while trying to load 2BSD on your box. Have you examined "vttape"? It's a virtual tape program that lets you force-feed a PDP-11 via a PeeCee over the console port. I haven't used it, but from what other people say about it, it's probably the least-additional-hardware-intensive way to go. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Dec-2003 15:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -16.1 F (-26.8 C) Windchill -54.7 F (-48.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.5 kts Grid 058 Barometer 696.4 mb (10014. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:59:40 -0500 From: Ram Meenakshisundaram Subject: Transputer box with 4 transputers on ebay To: "'cctalk@classiccmp.org'" Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847803673881@exchange.olf.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Another auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3445280936&category=3666 This one has 4 CSA TEK boards on its own backplane. Really cool. Have too many of these, so I am not bidding on this. Ships worldwide... Ram ) 2003 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:33:09 EST From: Antman692@aol.com Subject: PageBrush 256 To: cctech@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I have a PageBrush 256 hand held scanner. My question is what kind of pc card do I need? antman692@aol.com thanks End of cctech Digest, Vol 4, Issue 5 ************************************ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 3 15:44:49 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: OT: Coke (was: leaky batteries! References: <200312022008.PAA05211@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3FCE5951.3080904@jetnet.ab.ca> vance@neurotica.com wrote: >>useless information: In Canada, all of the non-diet pop has sugar, not >>high fructose corn syrup... > > > Why? NO Corn in CANADA! corn syrup == cheap From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Dec 3 14:09:50 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: AM29818 pipeline register/diagnostic register/writable control store? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031203150950.007f6450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I stopped by a scrap place and picked up an interesting looking board. It has a number of AM29818 "Diagnostic Resisters" on it. I wasn't familar with them so I looked them up on the net and found this for an equivelent part. Is there anybody here familar with these that would care to tell me what they are in plain english? Joe From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 3 17:32:51 2003 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: HSC manual (was) on ebay In-Reply-To: <200312021242.hB2CgEQ09962@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Message-ID: <006e01c3b9f5$c4e93610$5b01a8c0@athlon> Several people here seem interested in HSC manuals. This seller (no connection, unwrap the URL): http://cgi6.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=moj o4dojo&sort=3&rows=50&since=-1&include=0&showpics=0&stab=0 had an HSC70 service manual which didn't seem to sell. (I was going to bid but I no longer have access to a scanner and $20 or so shipping to the UK for a $3 manual was a tad off-putting!) A bunch of VAX 8800 manuals too (although the System Isolation Guide had the same part number as the one I have called a Fault Isolation Guide). I expect these will pop up again (or you could try direct contact if you have a sick HSC or VAX 8800 :-)) There are a few other interesting technical manuals - I've pretty much run out of room at the moment so I'll only be able to watch from the sidelines :-( Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pierre Gebhardt > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:42 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC S11 (PDP11) at Ebay > > > > Check out this auction at Ebay-Germany: > > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2769537250&c > ategory=15403 > > The seller sais that it's a Mainframe of the PDP11-family, > but I've never seen such a thing. > ______________________________________________________________ > ________________ > Horoskop, Comics, VIPs, Wetter, Sport und Lotto im WEB.DE > Screensaver1.2 Kostenlos downloaden: > http://screensaver.web.de/?mc=021110 > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 17:44:33 2003 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Ian Primus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... Message-ID: I was really busy over Thanksgiving, and then I got really sick, I'm just recovering today, so I haven't had much time to do any tinkering with computers. I just got home a few minutes ago, and the back end of my car is sagging from the weight of an IBM AS/400 Model 9404. It's very heavy, and I can't lift it alone, so it's going to have to stay there until I can get a friend to help me lift it out and get it into the house, but I have the panels, tape drive and battery backup unit inside (I took them out to make it lighter and easier to load). Unfortunately, the machine is missing it's hard drives, as well as their carriers. It does, however, have a tape drive installed, and seems to have it's full compliment of boards. I can't wait to play with it :). It's not like I need another project, and I really don't have space for it at the moment, but I couldn't pass it up. I can always use it as a nightstand/space heater... Anyway, anyone know anything about this beast? I've only done a little googleing, which hasn't turned up any information on the hardware. I need to find at least one drive carrier, and an operating system for it. Does Linux run well (if at all) on the AS/400? Like I said, I haven't done much research yet, I'm just trying to see if anyone has had any experience with this thing. It's an interesting (and heavy) piece of hardware. It will be fun to get running, provided I can find the time. Ian Primus ian_primus@yahoo.com From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 3 17:57:43 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: HSC manual (was) on ebay Message-ID: <200312032357.hB3NvhkK016334@spies.com> I've already scanned this. If people need it I can see about pushing it up in the post-processing queue From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 3 18:02:27 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive References: <200312031841.hB3Ifovq017194@spies.com> <002e01c3b9d0$277326e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <004901c3b9f9$e7987730$377ca418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Colorado 250 MB tape drive > Al wrote..... > > If you care about what's on them, read them before all of the pinch > > rollers on your drives turn to goo. > > Yeah, I already burned them all to CD too. Over 10 years of running a high > activity file based BBS, all comitted to CD. Well, except a few tapes of > Jpegs that I really dont care about ;) > > So if anyone needs old PC software from the late 70's through the 80's, let > me know, I probably have every version :) > > Jay > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > How many MB of data is 10 years worth or 80's PC software? I have 100+ 120mb colorado tapes from the early 90's of stuff. Would be interesting to see a filelist of your archive since I dont have much in the way of programs for my Tandy 1000 HX 80's vintage XT. From finnegpt at purdue.edu Wed Dec 3 18:07:04 2003 From: finnegpt at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: AM29818 pipeline register/diagnostic register/writable control store? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031203150950.007f6450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20031203150950.007f6450@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200312031907.04156.finnegpt@purdue.edu> Joe declared on Wednesday 03 December 2003 03:09 pm: > I stopped by a scrap place and picked up an interesting looking > board. It has a number of AM29818 "Diagnostic Resisters" on it. I > wasn't familar with them so I looked them up on the net and found > this > for an equivelent part. > Is there anybody here familar with these that would care to tell me > what they are in plain english? > > Joe They look to be a 8-bit register (or edge-triggered latch) that you can 'talk to' and read their input/change their latched value using a bit-serial connection (the SDI/SDO lines). -- Pat PLUG Vice President -- http://plug.purdue.org Slackware Linux -- http://slackware.com Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 3 18:13:22 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home In-Reply-To: <19b.1e0e5a03.2cffa1aa@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 3, 3 03:29:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031204/cffd0ba4/attachment.ksh From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Dec 3 19:20:10 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: A SIMH Attach question. References: Message-ID: <3FCE8BCA.375B9AD8@compsys.to> >Mike Gemeny wrote: > Greetings all, > Is there a way to change device attachments without stopping the simulation? > This would be quite helpful in a time sharing environment for handling > virtual printouts, virtual paper tapes, and virtual magnetic tapes. Jerome Fine replies: I don't think that John Wilson monitors this list, so I though that the following information might be helpful! Just in case anyone who needs this feature is running under an operating system that supports Ersatz-11, the feature (being able to "ATTACH" devices in mid stream - except under Ersatz-11 the command is "MOUNT") is available. To use it, the user types on the keyboard. I presume that the usual cautions are just as likely to be ignored under Ersatz-11, but I suggest that a user would want to "DETACH" very carefully. In addition, someone else asked about making changes to how keys are used. Ersatz-11 has a VERY powerful set of commands that allow the user to define how every key is used. In my case, I use the "Caps Lock" key as the "LCtrl" key since that is the normal location on a VT100 keyboard (actually beside the "Caps Lock" key). Also, the VT100 has a "No Scroll" key beside the "LShift" on the keyboard. On the standard 104 key PC keyboard, I define the action of the "LCtrl" key to be equivalent to the action of the "No Scroll" key on the VT100 keyboard. Finally, I also found that I strongly NEED the 6 EDIT keys found on the VT220 keyboard when I run RT-11 under Ersatz-11 on a PC. Ersatz-11 allows me to define the 6 EDIT keys above the 4 ARROW keys such that RT-11 thinks that a VT220 LK201 keyboard is being used when the appropriate EDIT key is pressed. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Dec 3 20:20:15 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyway, anyone know anything about this beast? I've only done a little > googleing, which hasn't turned up any information on the hardware. I > need to find at least one drive carrier, and an operating system for > it. Does Linux run well (if at all) on the AS/400? There has been talk, but I don't think anything ever surfaced. Anyway - why would anyone *want* to run anything but OS/400 on an AS/400? Not to cut down Linux at all, but once you install it on any machine, you pretty much strip out all of the character of the system. OS/400, like VMS, has a very definite flavor. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From thompson at new.rr.com Wed Dec 3 20:50:59 2003 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See embedded comments On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Ian Primus wrote: > my car is sagging from the weight of an IBM AS/400 Model 9404. It's Heh heh, I managed to fit one of these into a two door Mitsubishi Eclipse. I had to remove most everything to lift it, however. > very heavy, and I can't lift it alone, so it's going to have to stay > there until I can get a friend to help me lift it out and get it into > the house, but I have the panels, tape drive and battery backup unit > inside (I took them out to make it lighter and easier to load). > Unfortunately, the machine is missing it's hard drives, as well as > their carriers. It does, however, have a tape drive installed, and > seems to have it's full compliment of boards. You might be screwed. If it a beige CISC model you probably are. It does not run linux and the raw assembly code of the machine remains an IBM proprietary secret. All non-IBM code ran an abstracted assembly code. Most CISC 9404's maxed out at comically small amounts of RAM compared even to machines of similar age. (My 9404-E20 had 8 MB as I recall which at that feature code was the max) You need special licensed code tapes to recreate the OS if the disks are missing and then a secret number from IBM to keep it running past 90 days of OS install. The manual which came with my 9404 even claimed there was a movement sensor in the Operator control panel (with the display and key which contains the proprietary licensing bits) which would cause the system to demand a new code if it sensed too much movement. The boards are probably all worthless, even on Ebay, unless possibly you have an ethernet or token ring board. Newer RISC models are substantially less onerous in their licensing. The movement sensor is gone, the OS is sold with the machine not separately. Like a HP3000, a faster CPU is still nop'd down to a less efficient level if you have not purchased the highest 'trim line' of the server. You can run some sort of linux partition on some of the newest ones. Paul -- From jvansickler at cox.net Wed Dec 3 21:32:46 2003 From: jvansickler at cox.net (Jim Van Sickler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home In-Reply-To: <200312031837.hB3IbOEu016395@spies.com> Message-ID: <000701c3ba17$48d81240$6500a8c0@cx682801d> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:37 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DAP 610 Looking For A New Home > I think this is worth saving. I used a similar DAP at Apple in the late 80s Have tried to contact him, but haven't received a reply. I don't think CHM has one, and it is worth preserving. Al, other list members, I've gotten three or four e-mail responses and one phone call re: the 610. I haven't had a chance to respond to any yet, due to a heavy workload. I'll get back to you via the list over the next few days. I'll also re-post the msgs that were sent to my work mailbox, to restore continuity. I think it's best if we use the list, instead of my work e-mail address. That way everybody gets the info at the same time, and between my bosses and the classiccmp community we find the best home for it. Their concerns are more legal/fiscal (proper processing off the books of a Capital Equipment item), and they'll want to be sure it's done to their advantage. I've heard its original cost was in the $500,000 range, and amortization is a concern. It pained them to have this on the books, and it not producing any income... I'll put together a more complete description/inventory of what's involved, and post that along with pictures. Ours is serial no. 121, and is in a roll-around cabinet. No rack-mounting for this beast...the cabinet is 2'Wx3'Dx4+'H, and on beefy little wheels. One person I contacted a while ago said this type of system could be useful to folks like Google, as a Front-End-Processor (FEP) for preparing queries. If possible, I'd like to see this put back to use; not just put on static display. From what little I've read on it, it's got a lot of power to bring to the right tasks. Jim Van Sickler From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Dec 3 22:09:51 2003 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: dumb terminal wanted Message-ID: <000001c3ba1c$782c5dd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Anyone have a "glass tty" that you would be willing to part with? The smaller and dumber the better - Perkin Elmer Bantam, ADM-3, etc. UPPER/lower case option nice but not necessary. My SOROC is great but just too big and heavy to lug around and I don't want to fiddle with terminal emulation - just plug and go. No emulations, no graphics, no detached keyboards, no fat. Thanks. Jack Rubin Wilmette, Illinois USA From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 4 00:04:08 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCECE58.6090902@atarimuseum.com> Around I think 94-ish IBM and Novell teamed up and you could layer Netware onto OS/400, this would allow you to retain the OS and add some additioanl accessibility/functionality to it. Curt William Donzelli wrote: >>Anyway, anyone know anything about this beast? I've only done a little >>googleing, which hasn't turned up any information on the hardware. I >>need to find at least one drive carrier, and an operating system for >>it. Does Linux run well (if at all) on the AS/400? >> >> > >There has been talk, but I don't think anything ever surfaced. > >Anyway - why would anyone *want* to run anything but OS/400 on an AS/400? > >Not to cut down Linux at all, but once you install it on any machine, you >pretty much strip out all of the character of the system. OS/400, like >VMS, has a very definite flavor. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org > > > From kai at netramp.us Wed Dec 3 23:10:22 2003 From: kai at netramp.us (Wes Widner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: dumb terminal wanted In-Reply-To: <000001c3ba1c$782c5dd0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200312040519.hB45JkVo014387@huey.classiccmp.org> There is a company in Georgia (USA) that would probably be willing to part with their surplus of dumb terminals. Most are v220 WYSE models. The company is omlit.om.org and the IT manager's name is ken (hint, their emails are standardized firstname@omlit.om.org). -Wes > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Jack Rubin > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 11:10 PM > To: Classic Computer List > Subject: dumb terminal wanted > > Anyone have a "glass tty" that you would be willing to part with? The > smaller and dumber the better - Perkin Elmer Bantam, ADM-3, etc. > UPPER/lower case option nice but not necessary. My SOROC is great but > just too big and heavy to lug around and I don't want to fiddle with > terminal emulation - just plug and go. No emulations, no graphics, no > detached keyboards, no fat. > > Thanks. > > Jack Rubin > Wilmette, Illinois > USA From zaheem50 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 22:35:01 2003 From: zaheem50 at yahoo.com (zaheem khalid) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: information about 80387ex-33 Message-ID: <20031204043501.33438.qmail@web40703.mail.yahoo.com> hi , I didnot find any information on 387ex coprocessor , not even the pinouts, I am trying to interface the coprocessor with 386ex.first i was was looking for the 387sx as mensioned in the intel 386ex manuals.but the suuplier gave me the 387ex of which i have never heard off. if any one has nay information on this misterius coprocessor please inform me ,i will me very thankfull, i am also a short on time . thanks --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now From vrs at msn.com Thu Dec 4 00:48:35 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V Message-ID: Hi, I've got an electrolytic I pulled from my TU56 drive because it had a big crusty electrolyte extrusion through the vent plug in the top. The capacitor is marked "SPRAGUE 100 MFD 55V - 60CY A5030". It is 2" in diameter and just over 4" tall, with two solder lugs on top. I think they are connected to the drive motors. I have looked for replacement electrolytic, but they all have way more capacitance or way more voltage rating, and are nowhere near the right physical dimensions. Is there a source for exact replacements? If not, should I just get one with the right diameter for the mounting clamp and the right capacitance, but some huge voltage rating, or is the voltage rating more important and I should beef up the capacitance instead? Or do I have to get both those right, and substitute a little dinky device? Thanks! Vince From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Dec 3 22:34:38 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 manual In-Reply-To: References: <20031203153632.GA4445@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20031204043438.GB5402@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 08:33:14PM +0100, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Have you examined "vttape"? > > VTserver, that should probably read? :) Doh! You are, of course, correct. I was in the middle of a 36 hour work day (trying to uncorrupt a part of our detector that uses a Rio 3 processor running LynxOS in a VME crate). Back to LynxOS... -ethan (Who would _rather_ be debugging problems with 2BSD on a KDJ11) -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Dec-2003 04:31 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.4 F (-27.4 C) Windchill -51.8 F (-46.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.7 kts Grid 076 Barometer 693.5 mb (10120. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Dec 4 02:05:35 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:48:35PM -0800, vrs wrote: > Hi, > > I've got an electrolytic I pulled from my TU56 drive because it had a big > crusty electrolyte extrusion through the vent plug in the top. Ewwww. > .... "SPRAGUE 100 MFD 55V - 60CY A5030". It is 2" in diameter and just > over 4" tall, with two solder lugs on top. I think they are connected to > the drive motors. Yes. The motor start capacitors. > I have looked for replacement electrolytic, but they all have way more > capacitance or way more voltage rating, and are nowhere near the right > physical dimensions. Voltages that are "too high" are no problem. Too low is a big no-no. You want something with a fairly close capacitance match, because too little would probably increase the startup time on the motor and might cause issues if too far off. > Is there a source for exact replacements? Not that I am aware of. There are others (David Gesswein?) who have had to replace TU-56 motor caps. I have not yet had to do so (but it's been years since I fired mine up, since I've only recently repaird my -8/e PSU). My personal priority would have to be voltage and capacitance over physical size. A caveat - these are not filter caps. They are motor start caps (or they might be "motor run" caps. They will be hard to find an appropriate sub for. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Dec-2003 08:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.7 F (-27.6 C) Windchill -53.2 F (-47.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 082 Barometer 692.8 mb (10147. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mattis at mattisborgen.org Thu Dec 4 02:08:11 2003 From: mattis at mattisborgen.org (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: SV: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, These are oilfilled AC capacitors. Not an electrolytic capacitor. They are usually used together with the motor. Phase-shift capacitor for example to generate a second phase on a single phase system. Do no replace with an electrolytic capacitor. Electrolytic capacitors are DC only. Old DEC equipment contain a lot of them. It is not uncommon to find such capacitors with PCB (Polyclorinathed Bifenyles, if my speeling is correct) in them. Take care if one of these goes into smoke. Burnt PCB produces really lethal dioxines. /Mattis -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr?n: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]F?r vrs Skickat: den 4 december 2003 07:49 Till: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ?mne: 100MFD 55V Hi, I've got an electrolytic I pulled from my TU56 drive because it had a big crusty electrolyte extrusion through the vent plug in the top. The capacitor is marked "SPRAGUE 100 MFD 55V - 60CY A5030". It is 2" in diameter and just over 4" tall, with two solder lugs on top. I think they are connected to the drive motors. I have looked for replacement electrolytic, but they all have way more capacitance or way more voltage rating, and are nowhere near the right physical dimensions. Is there a source for exact replacements? If not, should I just get one with the right diameter for the mounting clamp and the right capacitance, but some huge voltage rating, or is the voltage rating more important and I should beef up the capacitance instead? Or do I have to get both those right, and substitute a little dinky device? Thanks! Vince From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Dec 4 02:11:07 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Colorado 250 MB tape drive In-Reply-To: <002e01c3b9d0$277326e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <200312031841.hB3Ifovq017194@spies.com> <002e01c3b9d0$277326e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20031204081107.GC5711@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 01:03:36PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > So if anyone needs old PC software from the late 70's through the 80's, let > me know, I probably have every version :) You have any of the Reader's Digest Software titles? (kids games for 6502 machines like the Apple II, BBC Micro and C-64). They would have been published around 1982-1984. I have (original) copies of a couple of titles, but nowhere near a complete set. I still have some source code for a few of our later products (Big Mac assembler for Apple II, Commodore assembler for the C-64), but it's spotty. A lost part of my past. I'd love to be able to show off what I worked on as a kid. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Dec-2003 08:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.7 F (-27.6 C) Windchill -53.2 F (-47.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 082 Barometer 692.8 mb (10147. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Edward.Tillman at valero.com Thu Dec 4 02:18:15 2003 From: Edward.Tillman at valero.com (Tillman, Edward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: information about 80387ex-33 Message-ID: <02FD5E2FB50CB34F944D474A6949B92945C60C@mssahq04.corp.valero.com> What brand is the chip? Rockwell used to make a 387dx copro that worked with almost anything, but I haven't seen one since running my old Packard-Bell 386/12 back in '90... Cheers... Ed Tillman Store Automation Tech Support Specialist Valero Energy Corporation San Antonio, Texas, USA Office: (210)592-3110, Fax (210)592-2048 Email: edward.tillman@valero.com -----Original Message----- From: zaheem khalid [mailto:zaheem50@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:35 PM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: information about 80387ex-33 hi , I didnot find any information on 387ex coprocessor , not even the pinouts, I am trying to interface the coprocessor with 386ex.first i was was looking for the 387sx as mensioned in the intel 386ex manuals.but the suuplier gave me the 387ex of which i have never heard off. if any one has nay information on this misterius coprocessor please inform me ,i will me very thankfull, i am also a short on time . thanks --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Dec 4 03:11:21 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: LynxOS? Message-ID: <20031204091121.GA5758@bos7.spole.gov> Hi, Does anyone on the list know anything about LynxOS (a semi-real-time Unix)? Linux identifies the partitions as Venix 80286 (type 40). I'm especially interested in a way to mount these partitions under Linux. I have some experience with Venix on the Pro-350, but not much with Intel Venix. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Dec-2003 08:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.6 F (-27.6 C) Windchill -56.5 F (-49.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 083 Barometer 692.8 mb (10147. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cheri-post at web.de Thu Dec 4 03:15:04 2003 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: KFQSA docs and MDM (was RE: Help needed:Setting up a KDA50) Message-ID: <200312040915.hB49F4Q27668@mailgate5.cinetic.de> > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > > > Megan, do you know the jumper settings for the KFQSA ? > Although I'm not as sweet as Megan, > > > Or anyone else ? > oh.. this would apply though :) > > > Yesterday I did another try. > > The KDA50 works now at address 172150, with the KFQSA removed. The command "show qbus" > > finally lists the controller. > Yay! > > > Antonio named I link for KFQSA documents but they don't have documents online for it. > > How do I have to set jumpers for this board? > You dont have to, all programming is done in software. But, since > you asked: > > http://www.pdp11.nl/Documentation/NewMDS/VOL002/0346.pdf > Wow, thanks alot Fred and Jochen! Configuring the KFQSA will be easy now. A the moment, I don't have a lot of time for BSD but I'll tell you when the rebirth of my VAX4000-200 with NetBSD is complete ! Pierre ______________________________________________________________________________ WEB.DE FreeMail wird 5 Jahre jung! Feiern Sie mit uns und nutzen Sie die neuen Funktionen http://f.web.de/features/?mc=021130 From asholz at topinform.com Thu Dec 4 03:58:55 2003 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: PDP11/24 M7133 / KDF11-UA Documentation In-Reply-To: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <3FCF055F.8020806@topinform.com> Hello all, as I posted to alt.sys.pdp11 already I've some problems to find the console connection to my KDF11-UA (11/24 CPU) board.. I don't want to repost my message here, but here are the boards in the cpu box: M7133 M7134 M7891 M9202 M9302 TWH DR11B / Tewidata TWH DZ11 / Tewidata Plessey-Board, DR11C Sure I know, that I shouldn't try to search for a console connector on the following boards: One Emulex SMD Controller SC1210201-CXD TWH KW11-P Realtime Clock / Tewidata one AD/DA-Board from ADAC Pete Turnbull kindly gave me the hint to search for the SLU-conenctors on the M7133 board already, so I've learned, that there should be two connectors, which are simply missing on my board. They are not soldered, if I'm correctly interpreting the layout of my board. I think I have to solder these connectors by my own? Is there any documentation of this board online? I didn't find any documentation on Al Kossow's site. Andreas From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 04:37:17 2003 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Ian Primus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 09:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Anyway, anyone know anything about this beast? I've only done a little >> googleing, which hasn't turned up any information on the hardware. I >> need to find at least one drive carrier, and an operating system for >> it. Does Linux run well (if at all) on the AS/400? > > There has been talk, but I don't think anything ever surfaced. > > Anyway - why would anyone *want* to run anything but OS/400 on an > AS/400? > > Not to cut down Linux at all, but once you install it on any machine, > you > pretty much strip out all of the character of the system. OS/400, like > VMS, has a very definite flavor. The only reason I would consider running Linux is because I was worried that I wouldn't be able to find the proper operating system for this beast. I always prefer to run the original operating system on a machine, unless I can't get ahold of it, in which case, Linux is a good choice, since it seems to run on anything. Ian Primus ian_primus@yahoo.com From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 04:47:19 2003 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Ian Primus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B919F56-2647-11D8-8A80-000393D7845A@yahoo.com> On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 09:50 PM, Paul Thompson wrote: > See embedded comments > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Ian Primus wrote: > >> my car is sagging from the weight of an IBM AS/400 Model 9404. It's > > Heh heh, I managed to fit one of these into a two door Mitsubishi > Eclipse. I had to remove most everything to lift it, however. I got lucky, it just barely fits in the trunk of my car, a Toyota Camry. I still haven't gotten it out of my trunk though, I'm going to need help to lift it out. > You might be screwed. If it a beige CISC model you probably are. It > does > not run linux and the raw assembly code of the machine remains an IBM > proprietary secret. All non-IBM code ran an abstracted assembly code. > Most CISC 9404's maxed out at comically small amounts of RAM compared > even > to machines of similar age. (My 9404-E20 had 8 MB as I recall which at > that feature code was the max) Yeah, it's beige. I hope I can get it to do something, I don't have room for a hundred pound doorstop. > You need special licensed code tapes to recreate the OS if the disks > are > missing and then a secret number from IBM to keep it running past 90 > days > of OS install. The manual which came with my 9404 even claimed there > was > a movement sensor in the Operator control panel (with the display and > key > which contains the proprietary licensing bits) which would cause the > system to demand a new code if it sensed too much movement. Well, if I can get the OS installed and running even for 90 days, It would be better than nothing. Does IBM have a hobbyist license program? > The boards are probably all worthless, even on Ebay, unless possibly > you > have an ethernet or token ring board. I haven't looked that closely, but I think it has a token ring board in it. Ian Primus ian_primus@yahoo.com From richard at girling.net Thu Dec 4 06:03:28 2003 From: richard at girling.net (richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software Message-ID: <3FD1E8C0@webmail.easymail.va.ifl.net> Hi John I have picked up on an old thread in Classiccmp so you may not get this or still be interested. In brief have got hold of a copy of the utility disc also a data library disk (coppied with LIFUTIL to a pc emailed & then converted back). Problem is the applications VT100 etc report "Application Denied" when run, copy protection? Any interest in the discs / sorting the copy protection? Richard From vrs at msn.com Thu Dec 4 06:59:42 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V References: Message-ID: > These are oilfilled AC capacitors. Not an electrolytic capacitor. They are > usually used together with the motor. Phase-shift capacitor for example to > generate a second phase on a single phase system. > > Do no replace with an electrolytic capacitor. Electrolytic capacitors are DC > only. > > Old DEC equipment contain a lot of them. It is not uncommon to find such > capacitors with PCB (Polyclorinathed Bifenyles, if my speeling is correct) > in them. Take care if one of these goes into smoke. Burnt PCB produces > really lethal dioxines. Hmm...Doesn't look oil-filled to me; more like a cream-colored paste. Looks just like an electrolytic which has blown crud out through the safety vent, which has then hardened over the years into a crust. Under the crust is a cream-colored substance with a texture like hardened toothpaste. I do know that motor start and motor run are different and incompatible. This one is connected to the coils driven by a G848, if I understand the TU56 drawings correctly. The G848 drawing shows it being driven bi-directionally to "motor supply", so you could be right about it not being polarized, though I also thought I read a faint "-" next to one of the solder tabs. How would I tell the difference between a motor-run and a motor-start cap by looking? Thanks! Vince From vrs at msn.com Thu Dec 4 07:08:13 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V References: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > Voltages that are "too high" are no problem. Too low is a big no-no. You > want something with a fairly close capacitance match, because too little > would probably increase the startup time on the motor and might cause issues > if too far off. > There are others (David Gesswein?) who have had to replace TU-56 motor caps. > I have not yet had to do so (but it's been years since I fired mine up, since > I've only recently repaird my -8/e PSU). My personal priority would have to > be voltage and capacitance over physical size. This matched my intuition, but I didn't know enough about the chemistry of electrolytics to be sure it was OK to run them significantly below their rated voltage. There appear to be cans available that get the capacitance and diameter right (so would be easy to mount), but have 4x or 8x the voltage rating. They are only a couple inches tall, but that isn't a problem. > A caveat - these are not filter caps. They are motor start caps (or they > might be "motor run" caps. They will be hard to find an appropriate sub > for. I thought filter caps went for large capacitances, whereas motor start caps tended toward high voltages. Are there other differences? Thanks! Vince From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Dec 4 07:28:12 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031204082812.00821c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Motor Start or Motor Run capacitors can be hard to find. Even the companies tht deal with motors and pumps don't ususually carry them. Fortunately there's a surplus company (Skycraft) here in town (Orlando) that carries lots of this kind of stuff. If you send me an E-mail with the dimensions and how it mounts I'll see what I can find. Joe At 03:05 AM 12/4/03 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:48:35PM -0800, vrs wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I've got an electrolytic I pulled from my TU56 drive because it had a big >> crusty electrolyte extrusion through the vent plug in the top. > >Ewwww. > >> .... "SPRAGUE 100 MFD 55V - 60CY A5030". It is 2" in diameter and just >> over 4" tall, with two solder lugs on top. I think they are connected to >> the drive motors. > >Yes. The motor start capacitors. > >> I have looked for replacement electrolytic, but they all have way more >> capacitance or way more voltage rating, and are nowhere near the right >> physical dimensions. > >Voltages that are "too high" are no problem. Too low is a big no-no. You >want something with a fairly close capacitance match, because too little >would probably increase the startup time on the motor and might cause issues >if too far off. > >> Is there a source for exact replacements? > >Not that I am aware of. > >There are others (David Gesswein?) who have had to replace TU-56 motor caps. >I have not yet had to do so (but it's been years since I fired mine up, since >I've only recently repaird my -8/e PSU). My personal priority would have to >be voltage and capacitance over physical size. > >A caveat - these are not filter caps. They are motor start caps (or they >might be "motor run" caps. They will be hard to find an appropriate sub >for. > >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Dec-2003 08:00 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.7 F (-27.6 C) Windchill -53.2 F (-47.4 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 082 Barometer 692.8 mb (10147. ft) > >Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From eric_pierce at sympatico.ca Thu Dec 4 06:46:51 2003 From: eric_pierce at sympatico.ca (Eric Pierce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Motorola MEK D2? Message-ID: <00b301c3ba64$b03e8890$0a00a8c0@w2kserver> This is a real long shot, but hey... Found this old posting from you, do you by any chance still have the MEK-D@ manual? I am trying to get copies of key sections. Thanks Eric www.va3ep.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- John Honniball cctech@classiccmp.org Tue Aug 13 09:09:38 2002 Previous message: Check out the Workmanship... Next message: Check out the Workmanship... Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Philip Pemberton wrote: > A MOS Technology/Commodore KIM-1? Lucky you - I've been after a MOS KIM for > ages. They're like the proverbial rocking horse droppings (or gold dust) > over here in the UK. Same goes for the Synertek SYM-1. Well, rare or not, I have both a KIM-1 and a SYM-1. No sign of the AIM-65, though. I've also got a 6800 development board, the Motorola MEK-D2. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.545 / Virus Database: 339 - Release Date: 11/27/2003 From paulpenn at knology.net Thu Dec 4 10:10:41 2003 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Motorola MEK D2? References: <00b301c3ba64$b03e8890$0a00a8c0@w2kserver> Message-ID: <005a01c3ba81$2a4ddfc0$6501a8c0@knology.net> Eric; I'm not John, but I do have an original Motorola MEK6800D2 and manual. I'd be glad to make copies for you. Let me know what you need. (If someone has already scanned it and posted it on the web, feel free to chime in here :-) I installed my boards and a power supply in a briefcase -- worked out really well. I'll try to post some pictures later. The 6800 was my first computer, and I've always enjoyed working with them. I've been trying to work through "Microcomputer Experimentation with the Motorola MEK 6800D2," by Lance A. Leventhal when I find time. Where are you located? Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Pierce" To: Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 7:46 AM Subject: Motorola MEK D2? > > This is a real long shot, but hey... > > Found this old posting from you, do you by any chance still have the > MEK-D@ manual? > > I am trying to get copies of key sections. > > > Thanks > > Eric > www.va3ep.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > John Honniball cctech@classiccmp.org > Tue Aug 13 09:09:38 2002 > > Previous message: Check out the Workmanship... > Next message: Check out the Workmanship... > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > A MOS Technology/Commodore KIM-1? Lucky you - I've been after a MOS > KIM for > > ages. They're like the proverbial rocking horse droppings (or gold > dust) > > over here in the UK. Same goes for the Synertek SYM-1. > > Well, rare or not, I have both a KIM-1 and a SYM-1. No sign of > the AIM-65, though. I've also got a 6800 development board, the > Motorola MEK-D2. > > -- > John Honniball > coredump@gifford.co.uk From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 4 10:18:07 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: References: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1070554686.2124.45.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 05:08, vrs wrote: > > > A caveat - these are not filter caps. They are motor start caps (or they > > might be "motor run" caps. They will be hard to find an appropriate sub > > for. > > I thought filter caps went for large capacitances, whereas motor start caps > tended toward high voltages. Are there other differences? > The capacitors you're talking about are the "motor run" capacitors for the motors. There is a difference between them and motor start capacitors. Motor start capacitors (as the name implies) are used for starting (large HP) AC motors. They create a phase shift in the current across the windings so that the motor will actually start. They are intended to be used only while the motor is starting rotation. I'm less clear about motor run capacitors, but they are used while the motor is in operation. In either case they are definitely *not* polarized. -- TTFN - Guy From arlen at acm.org Thu Dec 4 10:43:46 2003 From: arlen at acm.org (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Motorola MEK D2? In-Reply-To: <00b301c3ba64$b03e8890$0a00a8c0@w2kserver> Message-ID: on 4/12/03 7:46 AM, Eric Pierce wrote: > This is a real long shot, but hey... > > Found this old posting from you, do you by any chance still have the > MEK-D@ manual? > > I am trying to get copies of key sections. The manual is available here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/motorola/MEK6800D2.pdf (Thanks again to the indefatigable Al Kossow for providing us with such an excellent documentation resource!) btw, if anyone has a spare keypad assembly for a MEK6800D2 that they'd like to sling my way, please let me know. I have the D2 cpu board but not the hex keypad accessory. Arlen Michaels From giles.mascarenhas at lineone.net Thu Dec 4 10:52:25 2003 From: giles.mascarenhas at lineone.net (Giles Mascarenhas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: OMT MFM 5200 disk controller board Message-ID: <000501c3ba87$86e7df00$1ddce150@qts> Nico de Jong Can you let me know whether you still have OMTI7250 controller board as I am trying to repair an older version the OMTI 5200. Please email me at giles.mascarenhas@lineone.net Thanks Giles Mascarenhas From aek at spies.com Thu Dec 4 11:45:35 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: Mototrola MEK D2? Message-ID: <200312041745.hB4HjZfW023390@spies.com> Found this old posting from you, do you by any chance still have the MEK-D@ manual? -- www.bitsavers.org/pdf/motorola/MEK6800D2.pdf From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Dec 4 12:09:12 2003 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... References: Message-ID: <3FCF7848.CB859F6A@msm.umr.edu> I have one of the AS 400's of this vintage and am in the LA area I would be glad to let you have it. It has all you need to load and run the code, but the drives are blank. If you want it, email and arrange to come get it. I put it up for parting out on Ebay at one time but never got any takers. Jim Ian Primus wrote: > > IBM AS/400 Model 9404. It's > very heavy, and I can't lift it alone, so it's going to have to stay > there until I can get a friend to help me lift it out and get it into > the house, but I have the panels, tape drive and battery backup unit > inside (I took them out to make it lighter and easier to load). > Unfortunately, the machine is missing it's hard drives, as well as > their carriers. It does, however, have a tape drive installed, and > seems to have it's full compliment of boards. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Dec 4 12:05:55 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V Message-ID: <200312041805.KAA04258@clulw009.amd.com> >From: vrs > >Hi, > >I've got an electrolytic I pulled from my TU56 drive because it had a big >crusty electrolyte extrusion through the vent plug in the top. The >capacitor is marked "SPRAGUE 100 MFD 55V - 60CY A5030". It is 2" in >diameter and just over 4" tall, with two solder lugs on top. I think they >are connected to the drive motors. > >I have looked for replacement electrolytic, but they all have way more >capacitance or way more voltage rating, and are nowhere near the right >physical dimensions. Is there a source for exact replacements? Hi Also, be careful, this sounds like a non-polarized cap. Rather then checking with electronic supply companies, check with people that do electrical and motor suppies. Dwight > >If not, should I just get one with the right diameter for the mounting clamp >and the right capacitance, but some huge voltage rating, or is the voltage >rating more important and I should beef up the capacitance instead? Or do I >have to get both those right, and substitute a little dinky device? > >Thanks! > > Vince > > From vrs at msn.com Thu Dec 4 12:23:12 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:39 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V References: <20031204080535.GB5711@bos7.spole.gov> <1070554686.2124.45.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > The capacitors you're talking about are the "motor run" capacitors for > the motors. There is a difference between them and motor start > capacitors. Motor start capacitors (as the name implies) are used for > starting (large HP) AC motors. They create a phase shift in the current > across the windings so that the motor will actually start. They are > intended to be used only while the motor is starting rotation. I'm less > clear about motor run capacitors, but they are used while the motor is > in operation. In either case they are definitely *not* polarized. Here is my problem with the claim that a couple of people have made, that these are "motor run" caps: They are clearly filled with paste, not oil (as some has been forced out through the emergency vent hole), and they seem to be marked with a "-" near one of the solder lugs. That strongly suggests to me that these are electrolytic "motor start" capacitors. Am I missing something? Vince From TRASH3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Dec 4 13:31:29 2003 From: TRASH3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (TRASH3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: dumb terminal wanted Message-ID: <031204143129.1d51d@splab.cas.neu.edu> how small and how dumb do you want a terminal. I have some "transterm" terminals that are two lines by 16 characters, LCD. membrane keyboard. joe heck From TRASH3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Dec 4 13:25:42 2003 From: TRASH3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (TRASH3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V Message-ID: <031204142542.1d51d@splab.cas.neu.edu> Motor-start and motor-run are different but the same. A motor-run capacitor is AC and is connected all the time. A motor-start capacitor is connected usually through a centrifugal switch (and starting winding) so it is only connected during spinup. There are many motors that have centrifugal switches and starting windings without caps. and most of the caps used are fulltime, that is run caps. Now, my definitions may not be everybodys definitions, but that was how I was brought up when I did motor repair and rewound armatures. The giveaway was the original spec stated 60 cycle, which is a motor capacitor. run or start is not significant, but if it said 60 cycle, then it cannot be a DC cap with plus and minus. As stated in a previous message, the capacitor "creates" a second phase so you can get the motor to spin. Too little or too much capacitance and the created phase is not in the proper angle to provide the right rotation. again, make sure you get at least the minimum voltage, and getting a cap with more voltage spec is o.k., if you cannot match the capacitance, I think I would err toward more rather than less. Joe Heck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Dec 4 12:47:56 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35f2a75b4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Ian Primus wrote: > machine, unless I can't get ahold of it, in which case, Linux is a good > choice, since it seems to run on anything. There's always NetBSD - ISTR their slogan is "Of course it runs NetBSD" (nuff said). Their website is located at http://www.netbsd.org/ IIRC. It's still available for free download, BTW. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, Ethernet (Acorn AEH62), http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 8xCD, framegrabber, Teletext Wanted: Heisenberg. Reason uncertain. From vrs at msn.com Thu Dec 4 13:01:43 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V References: <031204142542.1d51d@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: > Motor-start and motor-run are different but the same. A motor-run > capacitor is AC and is connected all the time. A motor-start capacitor > is connected usually through a centrifugal switch (and starting winding) > so it is only connected during spinup. There are many motors that have > centrifugal switches and starting windings without caps. and most of > the caps used are fulltime, that is run caps. Now, my definitions may > not be everybodys definitions, but that was how I was brought up when > I did motor repair and rewound armatures. The giveaway was the > original spec stated 60 cycle, which is a motor capacitor. run or start > is not significant, but if it said 60 cycle, then it cannot be a DC > cap with plus and minus. Ah, now I understand why people think it is motor run. It's because the can says "60 CY" on it. > As stated in a previous message, the capacitor "creates" a second phase > so you can get the motor to spin. Too little or too much capacitance and > the created phase is not in the proper angle to provide the right > rotation. again, make sure you get at least the minimum voltage, and > getting a cap with more voltage spec is o.k., if you cannot match > the capacitance, I think I would err toward more rather than less. Everyone loves explaining this to me :-). Thanks everyone, but I think I have a pretty good idea what motor capacitors do now. Now my problem is locating a 100uf motor run capacitor. (I still don't get what that paste is that is coming out the top.) The non-polarized capacitors I am finding seem to top out around 80uf. I suppose I could install a pair of 50uf capacitors. I also checked the drive and one of the other vents looks a little puckered, so I'll likely need to replace more than just the one. Thanks! Vince From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 4 13:02:41 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? Message-ID: Hi, To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing program for it, with obvious results. Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? --f (who runs FAT on his own PDP-11 OS ;-) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Dec 4 13:09:39 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V Message-ID: <200312041909.LAA04298@clulw009.amd.com> >From: vrs > >> These are oilfilled AC capacitors. Not an electrolytic capacitor. They are >> usually used together with the motor. Phase-shift capacitor for example to >> generate a second phase on a single phase system. >> > ---snip--- >Hmm...Doesn't look oil-filled to me; more like a cream-colored paste. Looks >just like an electrolytic which has blown crud out through the safety vent, >which has then hardened over the years into a crust. Under the crust is a >cream-colored substance with a texture like hardened toothpaste. > >I do know that motor start and motor run are different and incompatible. ---snip--- Hi This is most likely an electrolytic capacitor, it is just that it is a non-polarize electrolytic. These are special purpose capacitors. If you place a regular electrolytic capacitor into this circuit it would blow up. You can use a pair of electrolytics mounted back to back of equal value and something like a 10 meg resistor in parallel with each to keep them balanced. The capacitor values need to have the full voltage rating each and the value needs to be 2 times the desired value. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 4 13:14:23 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > program for it, with obvious results. > > Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* > Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem > to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, > by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? > > --f (who runs FAT on his own PDP-11 OS ;-) It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT licensing website: http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp ...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good reasons: 1) software patents were not allowed at the time that FAT was implemented in MS-DOS, and 2) FAT was basically lifted from another OS. I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Also, I highly question the history they are promulgating. They claim they developed FAT in 1976. That seems a bit early. I could be wrong. Damn losers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Dec 4 13:18:35 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V Message-ID: <200312041918.LAA04305@clulw009.amd.com> >From: vrs ---snip--- > >Here is my problem with the claim that a couple of people have made, that >these are "motor run" caps: They are clearly filled with paste, not oil (as >some has been forced out through the emergency vent hole), and they seem to >be marked with a "-" near one of the solder lugs. That strongly suggests to >me that these are electrolytic "motor start" capacitors. > >Am I missing something? > > Vince > Hi As I think Joe mentioned, the electrolytic capacitors are usually used as motor run capacitors and not starting. These are non-polarized. Starting capacitors are usually oil/paper ( newer don't have PCB's ). This is because the starting capacitors require more current that would blow up a run capacitor. Run capacitors are used to help maintain efficiency of the motor while running. They help to keep a rotating field and help to pull the inductive load back to a resistive load from the AC side. Dwight From lcourtney at mvista.com Thu Dec 4 13:46:06 2003 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to > fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Maybe SCO behavior is becoming contagious? Cheers, Lee C. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:14 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > > program for it, with obvious results. > > > > Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* > > Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem > > to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, > > by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? > > > > --f (who runs FAT on his own PDP-11 OS ;-) > > It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT > licensing website: > > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp > > ...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good > reasons: 1) software patents were not allowed at the time that FAT was > implemented in MS-DOS, and 2) FAT was basically lifted from another OS. > > I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to > fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Also, I highly > question the history they are promulgating. They claim they developed FAT > in 1976. That seems a bit early. I could be wrong. > > Damn losers. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 13:56:40 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031204114004.D18260@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT > licensing website: > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp > ...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good It has a link for "Learn More About the FAT File System" which takes you to : http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fathist.asp which is entitled "FAT File System: The Story Behind the Innovation" which starts off with "December 3, 2003 "The FAT file system was one of the first technologies developed by Microsoft. In 1976, Bill Gates created the initial version of FAT during a short hotel stay in Albuquerque, N.M. Intel incorporated FAT technology in an operating system it developed for the Intel 8086 chip. Microsoft purchased the rights to this system and then recoded the FAT file system as part of the first version of the Microsoft MS-DOS operating system." and then proceeds to blabber on about the file nickname (*) system recently added (Windoze 98) THAT is the least useful "history" that I have ever seen about it! "Bill gates created...Microsoft purchased the rights"???? and WHAT Intel OS was it? I don't know where billg got the linked list idea from. Patterson of Seattle Computer Products shared a booth with Microsoft at the West Coast Computer Faire, and was "inspired" by the use of it in the NEC or NCR "Microsoft Stand Alone BASIC" and used it in QDOS, which MICROS~1 bought, and resold (after completion and a few changes) as PC-DOS/MS-DOS. (*) It is NOT "long filenames". If it were, then they would stand alone, and be indexed BY the "long filenames". Instead, ALL indexing is done by the 8.3 name. EVERY file has an 8.3 name that is used for all access. In addition the user can refer to a file by a "nickname", that is then used to FIND the 8.3 filename. The "long filenames" are a SUPPLEMENTARY added name, and therefore a "nickname". From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Dec 4 14:01:39 2003 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCFA0B3.32510.FD0223A3@localhost> Am 4 Dec 2003 11:14 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > > program for it, with obvious results. > > Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* > > Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem > > to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, > > by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? > It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT > licensing website: > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp > ...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good > reasons: 1) software patents were not allowed at the time that FAT was > implemented in MS-DOS, and 2) FAT was basically lifted from another OS. I think the trick roots deeper. First of all, it does not look like they are sueing anyone, it's only that they offer licences for their _source_code_ to handle FAT media. Now, if one buys that (and may be inclined to do so to get LFN (*1), he also agrees that his knowledge to handle such structures is from Microsoft, and therefore, whatever he will develop, he will never be able to get out of that, as long as his software supports FAT. it's a one way trap. Also, if enough people accept, it sets the standards for future court issues. What pisses me of most is that they want licence for media if they are formated with FAT. Beside that this is even more a joke than the Rambus scam, it sets the stage that not only software (and the underlaying algorythm) is protected by a patend but also the data generated by this algorythm! Let's just continue the idea: Assumeing MS had a patent for some parts of Word, under the above circumstances, every document written using Word, stored on a media will be the same ... so does MS own what I write, because I'm using their programm? I wouldn't realy say FAT is directly lifted from _one_ other OS, it's a nice development starting from CP/M and other sources (as the intenion of the original developers have been). > I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to > fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Also, I highly > question the history they are promulgating. They claim they developed FAT > in 1976. That seems a bit early. I could be wrong. Jup, that is the most ridicoulous par ... now the original MS-Basic had even FAT ... next thing they tell is that it also had a GUI and of course invented the Internet ... all in MS-Basic :) Gruss H. *1 - to me, LFNs are not realy a new idea - at least not the way they are implemented for FAT .... that's exactly the same scheme CP/M already used 20 years before to handle more than 16 data blocks: spread out a file entry over several directory entries. -- VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Dec 4 14:00:21 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4121@MAIL10> I think that the 1976 reference may come from the following. Microsoft had Stand-Alone Disk BASIC, which may have been available in 1976 (I don't have release dates handy), used a file system that might have been the beginnings of the FAT scheme. Then, I found this reference in a June 1983 article written by Tim Paterson called "An Inside look at MS-DOS". In that article, there's a sidebar called "A Short History of MS-DOS" (some paragraphs deleted for brevity): "...In May 1979, Seattle Computer made the first propotype of its 8086 microprocessor card for the S-100 bus. There were brief discussions with Digital Research about using one of Seattle Computer's prototypes to aid in developing CP/M-86, which was to be ready "soon."..." The article continues: "Microsoft had already started a strong 8086 software-development program. The firm was ready to try the 8086 version of Stand-Alone Disk BASIC, which is a version of its BASIC interpreter with a built-in operating system. During the last two weeks of May 1979, this BASIC was made completely functional using the hardware that Seattle Computer provided for Microsoft." Continuing: "Seattle Computer shipped its first 8086 cards in November 1979, with Stand-Alone Disk BASIC as the only software to run on it. The months rolled by, and CP/M-86 was nowhere in sight. Finally, in April 1980, Seattle decided to create its own DOS." And more: "The first versions of the operating system, called QDOS 0.10, were shipped in August 1980." More still: "In the last few days of 1980, a new version of the DOS was released, now known as 86-DOS version 0.3. Seattle Computer passed this new version onto Microsoft, which had bought the non-exclusive rights to market 86-DOS and had one customer for it at the time." "In April 1981, Seattle Computer Products released 86-DOS version 1.00, which was very similar to the versions of MS-DOS that are widely distributed today." So, who invented the FAT filesystem we know today? Microsoft (through Stand-Alone Disk BASIC)? Seattle Computer (through 86-DOS)? To paraphrase Artie Johnson..."Very interesting". Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > program for it, with obvious results. > > Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* > Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem > to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, > by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? > > --f (who runs FAT on his own PDP-11 OS ;-) It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT licensing website: http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp ...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good reasons: 1) software patents were not allowed at the time that FAT was implemented in MS-DOS, and 2) FAT was basically lifted from another OS. I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Also, I highly question the history they are promulgating. They claim they developed FAT in 1976. That seems a bit early. I could be wrong. Damn losers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From TRASH3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Dec 4 14:26:54 2003 From: TRASH3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (TRASH3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: MOTOR RUN VS. MOTOR START Message-ID: <031204152654.1d52b@splab.cas.neu.edu> Well it's been a while, I just remembered something else about run and start. We used to have to put "motor run" capacitors on all our large equipment (3 phase) to get our power factor closer to one (unity). It wasn't ever used in that situation for creating a second phase, as we were using 3 phase motors. However, this system is a single phase system. I don't think the same issue is being addressed by the run capacitor. joe heck btw, I checked for "motor start" capacitor on google and got a nice place to buy caps. http://www.toad.net/~jsmeenen/boom.html is a nice picture of both types of caps in a pool motor application End of returned message From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 14:45:43 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4121@MAIL10> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4121@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20031204123135.C18260@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Cini, Richard wrote: > So, who invented the FAT filesystem we know today? Microsoft > (through Stand-Alone Disk BASIC)? Seattle Computer (through 86-DOS)? Microsoft. The "Stand Alone Disk BASIC" was used in Z80 machines. It used a seek-center DIR (track 17 or 20 of a 35 or 40 track disk, with a single sector "Granule Allocation Table", usually with 1/2 track for each allocation unit (8 bit entries)) THEN SCP wrote an 8086 system patterned after CP/M, but with a DIR structure BASED on that idea, but with a track 0 DIR, more sectors for the "FAT", and smaller allocation units (12 bit entries). (QDOS, later 86-DOS) I don't know what became of the 8086 Stand-Alone BASIC. THEN Microsoft bought rights to that OS for "Project Commodore" (their IBM contract). (PC-DOS, MS-DOS) LATER, DRI added FAT support to some of their products, and Apple based the original Mac DIR structure directly on FAT (MAJOR shortage of system programmers at the time??) > To paraphrase Artie Johnson..."Very interesting". I think so BTW, Cringely's version is COMPLETELY bogus. The Kildall eulogy is "accurate", but way too biased (delivery of some manuals to Oakland required Kildall stand up IBM, and couldn't be delegated?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Dec 4 14:50:42 2003 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: MOTOR RUN VS. MOTOR START Message-ID: <8B39793544120140B253EFE052E7ED0A0171DD03@nbulif015> > We used to have to put "motor run" capacitors on all our > large equipment (3 phase) to get our power factor closer > to one (unity). However, this system is a single phase > system. I don't think the same issue is being addressed > by the run capacitor. It is, like the capacitor in flourescent light fittings the run capacitor on a motor is (usually) just for power factor correction and it matters not if it's 3 phase or single. The give away is if it's across the supply or in series with a separate winding. If it's across the supply then it's for PFC. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 4 14:52:40 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <20031204114004.D18260@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > THAT is the least useful "history" that I have ever seen about it! "Bill > gates created...Microsoft purchased the rights"???? and WHAT Intel OS was > it? What is the big deal? Large corporations have been "supplementing" their history for a long time. It is actually a bit of a challenge to find one that hasn't at some point. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From spedraja at ono.com Thu Dec 4 14:57:26 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? References: Message-ID: <004301c3baa9$3a3fb980$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Hi :-) > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > program for it, with obvious results. SCO claims "Unix is mine"... Microsoft claims "FAT is mine"... It's more clear for me everyday than Linux and BDS systems begin to result a real problem for Microsoft and other companies. If you can't stop its growth, try desperate ways. Just today appears one notice about distribution of illegal copies of "Longhorn" (next Windoze) in Malaysia, and the prosecution than Microsoft shall try to do in this country. What a joke with China near :-) Cheers Sergio From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 4 15:13:25 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <004301c3baa9$3a3fb980$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, SP wrote: > SCO claims "Unix is mine"... I cant comment on that, since I am part of that procedure. > Microsoft claims "FAT is mine"... Yeah, looks like they do :) The funny part is, that after careful reading, they indeed base their claims on patents for something *related* to FAT (the LFN addons to implement long(er) file names), but not FAT itself. As Sellam already pointed out, in those days, software was not patentable as such, and even copyrights were still worked on :) So.. the question remains: regardless of who *invented* the FAT disk structure (GAT, FAT, FAT16, MACDOS) principle, was it ever subject to a *license* of sorts? I very seriously doubt this. If this were so, anyone being subpoenad by MS *now* could claim belated charges (you cant let something happen for 20 years, and then suddenly go "oooh, darn, thats not right, sue the bastard!"), and be done with it. Microsoft will have to come up to me with better paperwork than those patents. (yes, I just sent them a FAX announcing the refusal to comply in my PDP-11 OS.) Cant remember who wrote this, but: they are not licensing their *code* to process FAT file systems, they intend to license the file system itself. Meaning not just the software that handles it (think any phone or camera, Cisco's IOS software, etc) but also the media that physically implements (SD/flash/MemoryStick card around) this great finding of the past.. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From vrs at msn.com Thu Dec 4 15:14:01 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: MOTOR RUN VS. MOTOR START References: <8B39793544120140B253EFE052E7ED0A0171DD03@nbulif015> Message-ID: > > We used to have to put "motor run" capacitors on all our > > large equipment (3 phase) to get our power factor closer > > to one (unity). However, this system is a single phase > > system. I don't think the same issue is being addressed > > by the run capacitor. > > It is, like the capacitor in flourescent light fittings the > run capacitor on a motor is (usually) just for power factor > correction and it matters not if it's 3 phase or single. The > give away is if it's across the supply or in series with a > separate winding. If it's across the supply then it's for PFC. The drawing does look as though it is in series with a second winding. Vince From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Dec 4 15:25:59 2003 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: MOTOR RUN VS. MOTOR START Message-ID: <8B39793544120140B253EFE052E7ED0A0171DD04@nbulif015> > The drawing does look as though it is in series with a > second winding. Then it would seem to be being used to create a rotating magnetic field. In this case too samll a value will lead to a reduction in full speed torque and possible speed variations, and too large a value will reduce the low speed torque (i.e. when the motor is running up). However having said that the value will be a compromise anyway and +/- 20% either way shouldn't hurt enough to notice. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From me at davidarice.net Thu Dec 4 15:16:04 2003 From: me at davidarice.net (David A Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: MSD docs Message-ID: <3FCFA414.7050808@davidarice.net> Hi - Did you ever find MSD SD-2 maintenance manual? I have one that works great and would like to keep it that way . . . Thanks David A. Rice me@davidarice.net www.realhickorywind.com -------------------------------------------------- If you think education is expensive - try ignorance. -------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 16:17:32 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031204135431.C25087@newshell.lmi.net> > > THAT is the least useful "history" that I have ever seen about it! "Bill > > gates created...Microsoft purchased the rights"???? and WHAT Intel OS was > > it? On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, William Donzelli wrote: > What is the big deal? Large corporations have been "supplementing" their > history for a long time. It is actually a bit of a challenge to find one > that hasn't at some point. I'm NOT objecting to "supplementing". (THIS TIME) I'm griping that in an entire page purporting to be the history, they provide only a couple of sentences, and those leave gaps so big that they don't make complete sense. (When saying that Bill Gates created it in a hotel room in Albuquerque NM (a somewhat less important detail), and then saying "purchased rights", they oughta explain why they would "purchase rights" to what they had created! Even "purchased rights to IMPROVEMENTS in order to make a better OS for YOU" would be a better "history") Then they have multiple paragraphs about one particular [kludged] modification to it. I would RATHER see tham "supplementing", than the few almost RANDOM unconnected snippets that they provide. I DO object to the Cringely CRAP, wherein he has Microsoft cold calling IBM to sell IBM on the idea of having an operating system! NEVER HAPPENED. (IBM went to Microsoft, and Bill Gates did a good job of peddling his stuff) and then Cringely starts preaching into the camera that business students should study his FABRICATED FICTION! (THAT is when he should F OFF) and the Killdall eulogy (which I really like) is done by people who loved and admired Gary, and don't SEE anything out of place about standing up IBM to "deliver some documentation manuals to Oakland" (not delegatable?) It also fails to mention some of the "culture clash" issues - IBM was "shocked" at the working environment at DR, and there were unsubstantiated reports that when the IBM people arrived (looking a bit out of place for that community, some DR people thought that it was a drug raid. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vance at neurotica.com Thu Dec 4 16:39:12 2003 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, William Donzelli wrote: > > Anyway, anyone know anything about this beast? I've only done a little > > googleing, which hasn't turned up any information on the hardware. I > > need to find at least one drive carrier, and an operating system for > > it. Does Linux run well (if at all) on the AS/400? > > There has been talk, but I don't think anything ever surfaced. > > Anyway - why would anyone *want* to run anything but OS/400 on an AS/400? There's an IBM-written port to the newer (read RISC) AS/400 iron. > Not to cut down Linux at all, but once you install it on any machine, > you pretty much strip out all of the character of the system. OS/400, > like VMS, has a very definite flavor. Indeed. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 4 16:42:21 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred N. van Kempen > Sent: 04 December 2003 19:03 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? > > > Hi, > > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > program for it, with obvious results. > > Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* > Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem > to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, > by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? I always thought FAT (File Allocation Table) was the directory structure of RT11, but I'm younger than 40 so I'm prepared to be shot down in flames :) cheers w From dittman at dittman.net Thu Dec 4 16:50:43 2003 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: from "vance@neurotica.com" at Dec 04, 2003 05:39:12 PM Message-ID: <20031204225043.C77407F82@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Anyway - why would anyone *want* to run anything but OS/400 on an AS/400? > > There's an IBM-written port to the newer (read RISC) AS/400 iron. If you have an iSeries with extra capacity and need a Linux server, then throwing Linux on an LPAR would be a good use of resources. You are using resources that would otherwise be wasted, you don't need a separate box for the Linux server, and you are running on very reliable hardware. I wouldn't dedicate an iSeries box to Linux, though. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From aek at spies.com Thu Dec 4 17:14:26 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: PDP11/24 M7133 / KDF11-UA Documentation Message-ID: <200312042314.hB4NEQxE026566@spies.com> Is there any documentation of this board online? I didn't find any documentation on Al Kossow's site. -- www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf From donm at cts.com Thu Dec 4 17:23:22 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031204082812.00821c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Joe wrote: > Motor Start or Motor Run capacitors can be hard to find. Even the > companies tht deal with motors and pumps don't ususually carry them. > Fortunately there's a surplus company (Skycraft) here in town (Orlando) > that carries lots of this kind of stuff. If you send me an E-mail with the > dimensions and how it mounts I'll see what I can find. > > Joe Motor start/run capacitors are pretty commonly available at stores which deal in parts for the appliance an heating & ventilating trades. They may not be the same size as yours was, and will likely have spade lug contacts vice soldered, but I'd bet that you can find something of a suitable rating. - don > At 03:05 AM 12/4/03 -0500, you wrote: > >On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 10:48:35PM -0800, vrs wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've got an electrolytic I pulled from my TU56 drive because it had a big > >> crusty electrolyte extrusion through the vent plug in the top. > > > >Ewwww. > > > >> .... "SPRAGUE 100 MFD 55V - 60CY A5030". It is 2" in diameter and just > >> over 4" tall, with two solder lugs on top. I think they are connected to > >> the drive motors. > > > >Yes. The motor start capacitors. > > > >> I have looked for replacement electrolytic, but they all have way more > >> capacitance or way more voltage rating, and are nowhere near the right > >> physical dimensions. > > > >Voltages that are "too high" are no problem. Too low is a big no-no. You > >want something with a fairly close capacitance match, because too little > >would probably increase the startup time on the motor and might cause issues > >if too far off. > > > >> Is there a source for exact replacements? > > > >Not that I am aware of. > > > >There are others (David Gesswein?) who have had to replace TU-56 motor caps. > >I have not yet had to do so (but it's been years since I fired mine up, since > >I've only recently repaird my -8/e PSU). My personal priority would have to > >be voltage and capacitance over physical size. > > > >A caveat - these are not filter caps. They are motor start caps (or they > >might be "motor run" caps. They will be hard to find an appropriate sub > >for. > > > >-ethan > > > >-- > >Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Dec-2003 08:00 Z > >South Pole Station > >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -17.7 F (-27.6 C) Windchill -53.2 F > (-47.4 C) > >APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 082 Barometer 692.8 mb (10147. > ft) > > > >Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > > > From tomj at wps.com Thu Dec 4 17:42:58 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? (86DOS?) In-Reply-To: <20031204114004.D18260@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20031204114004.D18260@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1070581378.2483.34.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 11:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > Patterson of Seattle Computer Products shared a booth with Microsoft at > the West Coast Computer Faire, and was "inspired" by the use of it in > the NEC or NCR "Microsoft Stand Alone BASIC" and used it in QDOS, which > MICROS~1 bought, and resold (after completion and a few changes) as > PC-DOS/MS-DOS. OK, so I specifically recall "89DOS", and it's stapled yellow books. Version 0.86 (duh) and 1.something. I thought it was seattle comp prod. I installed it on some '86 machine or other in 1979? 1980? 1981? It used patterson's one-pass assembler, faster'n'blazes, a CP/M style jump table, and I thought a FAT-like file system. I don't think it was the CP/M extent business but it could have been. Anyone else recall anything abou this OS? From tomj at wps.com Thu Dec 4 17:47:08 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <3FCFA0B3.32510.FD0223A3@localhost> References: <3FCFA0B3.32510.FD0223A3@localhost> Message-ID: <1070581628.2484.41.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 12:01, Hans Franke wrote: > Jup, that is the most ridicoulous par ... now the original MS-Basic > had even FAT ... next thing they tell is that it also had a GUI and > of course invented the Internet ... all in MS-Basic :) But what exactly was "standalone BASIC". I recall it, I even had OEM distribution diskettes of it, but paid it no attention. Did it in fact have a filesystem integral? I just haev no idea. From tomj at wps.com Thu Dec 4 17:54:02 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <20031204135431.C25087@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20031204135431.C25087@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1070582041.2483.53.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 14:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > It also fails to mention some of the "culture clash" issues - > IBM was "shocked" at the working environment at DR, and there > were unsubstantiated reports that when the IBM people arrived > (looking a bit out of place for that community, some DR people > thought that it was a drug raid. I had the distinct pleasure of personally picking up our (CSSN, Inc, Boston Mass) CP/M-80 v2.2 OEM diskettes from the Pacific Grove house. It was definitely old hippy decor, very nice. Bunch of hacker weirdos making good stuff. Saw PL/M demoed playing chess, met Gary merely in passing through (mumble). Total culture clash is not hard to imagine. Money is very conservative (read: reactionary) and makes little room for uniqueness. The whole microcomputer world died for me with the coming of the PC, culture-wise, and is why i left it behind. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 17:55:14 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? (86DOS?) In-Reply-To: <1070581378.2483.34.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> References: <20031204114004.D18260@newshell.lmi.net> <1070581378.2483.34.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20031204155247.W25087@newshell.lmi.net> > > Patterson of Seattle Computer Products shared a booth with Microsoft at > > the West Coast Computer Faire, and was "inspired" by the use of it in > > the NEC or NCR "Microsoft Stand Alone BASIC" and used it in QDOS, which > > MICROS~1 bought, and resold (after completion and a few changes) as > > PC-DOS/MS-DOS. On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > OK, so I specifically recall "89DOS", and it's stapled yellow books. "86" not "89"? > Version 0.86 (duh) and 1.something. I thought it was seattle comp prod. > I installed it on some '86 machine or other in 1979? 1980? 1981? > It used patterson's one-pass assembler, faster'n'blazes, a CP/M style > jump table, and I thought a FAT-like file system. I don't think it was > the CP/M extent business but it could have been. It did, indeed use "FAT" > Anyone else recall anything abou this OS? "86-DOS" earlier in the process, it had previously been known as QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS") We're talking about different names of the same OS -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tomj at wps.com Thu Dec 4 17:57:19 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4121@MAIL10> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4121@MAIL10> Message-ID: <1070582239.2483.59.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 12:00, Cini, Richard wrote: > "In the last few days of 1980, a new version of the DOS was released, now > known as 86-DOS version 0.3. Seattle Computer passed this new version onto > Microsoft, which had bought the non-exclusive rights to market 86-DOS and > had one customer for it at the time." > > "In April 1981, Seattle Computer Products released 86-DOS version 1.00, > which was very similar to the versions of MS-DOS that are widely distributed > today." Thanks! I shoudl have read out the thread before replying. And the standalone basic thread... RTFM!! tomj > > So, who invented the FAT filesystem we know today? Microsoft > (through Stand-Alone Disk BASIC)? Seattle Computer (through 86-DOS)? > > To paraphrase Artie Johnson..."Very interesting". > > Rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:14 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > > To my own laughter and surprise, Microsoft now claims to have the > > rights to the FAT file system, and intends to execute on a licensing > > program for it, with obvious results. > > > > Wasnt FAT done (in crude format) by MP/M or CP/M86 already *before* > > Microsoft? They claim it was developed by them in 1976, but I seem > > to recall it being mentioned before that, around 1974-ish or so, > > by homebrew people (such as CP/M et al.) ?? > > > > --f (who runs FAT on his own PDP-11 OS ;-) > > It's a total joke. First of all, the patents referenced on their FAT > licensing website: > > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/tech/fat.asp > > ...are for long filenames. They have no patent on FAT, and for good > reasons: 1) software patents were not allowed at the time that FAT was > implemented in MS-DOS, and 2) FAT was basically lifted from another OS. > > I have no idea why MS would be so stupid as to think people are going to > fall for this, which is basically a sad-assed ruse. Also, I highly > question the history they are promulgating. They claim they developed FAT > in 1976. That seems a bit early. I could be wrong. > > Damn losers. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 18:00:43 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <1070581628.2484.41.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> References: <3FCFA0B3.32510.FD0223A3@localhost> <1070581628.2484.41.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20031204155529.P25087@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > But what exactly was "standalone BASIC". I recall it, I even had OEM > distribution diskettes of it, but paid it no attention. > Did it in fact have a filesystem integral? I just haev no idea. It was a Microsoft BASIC, that had some rudimentary file handling built in, including the capability of launching programs. The best known is Coco RS-DOS (6809), but there were earlier versions, on NEC8001 (Z-80) and some non-US Okidata machines (Z-80) The directory structure was on a middle track (35 or 40), with a one sector FAT (called a "GAT" "granule allocation table"). "Clusters" ("granules") were often half a track, and the table used 8 bit entries. The FPDEs included a file size and a starting block number. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 17:36:51 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: from "vrs" at Dec 3, 3 10:48:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1463 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031204/0a018f37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 17:44:38 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: from "vrs" at Dec 4, 3 04:59:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1180 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031204/33773470/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 17:53:05 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: <1070554686.2124.45.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Dec 4, 3 08:18:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1226 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031204/f532162c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 17:54:23 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: OMT MFM 5200 disk controller board In-Reply-To: <000501c3ba87$86e7df00$1ddce150@qts> from "Giles Mascarenhas" at Dec 4, 3 04:52:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031204/1d823850/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 18:07:20 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: from "Witchy" at Dec 4, 3 10:42:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 750 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/5400d7df/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 18:09:59 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <3FCFA0B3.32510.FD0223A3@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 4, 3 09:01:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 539 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/88ea6112/attachment.ksh From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 4 18:30:23 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] There's an extra field in each directory entry (the RT11 system > allows for this) which holds the extact number of bits used in the last > sector of the file. Bytes, right? > There is no FAT, or anything like it, in the RT11 structure. Each > directory entry stores the start block number and length for each file, > unused space had directory entries too, and they're sorted in ascending > order of blocks. Files must be contiguous. So, yeah, if you had a 28-blocks file, and changed the word "foo" to the word "bar" at byte offset 219 in block 12, then what? Was it smart enough to just rewrite that block? When extending a file, did it have to rewrite the entire file to a new location if the block after the 28th block was already in use? --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 4 18:31:13 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > job did attempt to claim that the manufacturers of said CAD system had > rights to any designs produced using it. Needless to say we told said > company where to go, and used a competitor's product... They probably didnt last long, either. --f From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Dec 4 19:43:13 2003 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V References: Message-ID: <063d01c3bad1$338807f0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: Re: 100MFD 55V > > Hmm...Doesn't look oil-filled to me; more like a cream-colored paste. Looks > > just like an electrolytic which has blown crud out through the safety vent, > > I beleive these are non-polarised electrolytics.... Certainly are. Sanyo TV's have a couple that frequently fail and need replacement. You *can* cobble one up by joining two conventional electros of the same value cathode to cathode which makes a single non polarised electro with half the value of the sum of the two. (Caps in series) My experience has been that such cobbled up versions tend to fail after about 12 months or so but it's useful if you need a quick fix. Geoff in Oz From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 4 19:44:28 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <1070582041.2483.53.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> References: <20031204135431.C25087@newshell.lmi.net> <1070582041.2483.53.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20031204173722.A31331@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > I had the distinct pleasure of personally picking up our (CSSN, Inc, > Boston Mass) CP/M-80 v2.2 OEM diskettes from the Pacific Grove house. It > was definitely old hippy decor, very nice. Bunch of hacker weirdos > making good stuff. Saw PL/M demoed playing chess, met Gary merely in > passing through (mumble). > Total culture clash is not hard to imagine. Money is very conservative > (read: reactionary) and makes little room for uniqueness. The whole > microcomputer world died for me with the coming of the PC, culture-wise, > and is why i left it behind. I agree. But there were some precursors and warnings, even before IBM got into it, such as the "serious" renaming of playful company names: Thinker Toys became Morrow Designs Kentucky Fried Computer became Northstar Intergalactic Digital Research became Digital Research Inc. Parasitic Engineering and Golemics ceased to be significant players, ... Computer companies hired advertising agencies, instead of hoky homemade ads, If you called Microsoft on the phone (206) 255-8080?, you had to know the last name of who you wanted. Software came in a shrink wrapped box, instead of a ziploc bag. The suits arrived. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Dec 4 20:00:34 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:40 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? References: Message-ID: <3FCFE6C2.E98ED2BC@compsys.to> >Witchy wrote: > I always thought FAT (File Allocation Table) was the directory structure of > RT11, but I'm younger than 40 so I'm prepared to be shot down in flames :) Jerome Fine replies: Since RT-11 is still actively used, a set of DOCs can still help anyone who is interested. Assuming that RT11 actually means RT-11 based originally on DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) PDP-11 computer systems, then a brief review of the RT-11 file structure might be helpful. (a) RT-11 does NOT use a FAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (b) While block ONE for a file structured device does contain some additional directory information, it is not normally required for directory operations. (c) Block 6 is the start of the directory for ALL random access file structured media. Note that while block 1 contains a word that has 6 as the value that is nominally used to point to block 6, so many RT-11 programs ASSUME that block 6 is the start that it is no longer possible for any other block to be used. (d) The file structure is based on directory segments. (e) Each directory segment is EXACTLY 2 blocks in size or 512 words of 16 bits. (f) The RT-11 command to set-up an RT-11 file structure is "INITIALIZE dev:" and this command is totally separate from the FORMAT command which deals ONLY with the LLF (Low Level Format) of a disk drive or the media in the case of removable media (with certain exceptions that most users would not appreciate - including the fact that probably most media can't be FORMATed from RT-11 in the first place). In RT-11, the FORMAT command does NOT include setting up the RT-11 file structure. For DOS/Windows people, this usually causes GREAT confusion!!!! (g) All file space in an RT-11 directory is accounted for via entries within each directory segment - including areas that are NOT yet allocated that are noted in the status word as being just that - UNUSED. (h) Each freshly initialized RT-11 file structure has exactly one directory segment which contains exactly one file entry for all of the UNUSED blocks on that random access device. There are a maximum of 31 directory segments allowed (some RT-11 file structures for devices that are small such as floppy media allow for many fewer than 31 segments. (i) Each directory segment has 5 words at the start: o Maximum Number of Directory Segments o Next Directory Segment - Zero if the Last o Total Number of Directory Segments in Use - ONLY maintained in Directory Segment #1 o Number of Extra Bytes in Each File Entry o Starting Block Number of First Area which means the maximum device is 65535 blocks (RT-11 does NOT check to verify that this value is correct and follows immediately after the previous file entry in the linked list - thus it is possible to successfully "fool" RT-11, but this is STRONGLY against ALL rules and should not even be considered EXCEPT for READ ONLY MEDIA such as a CD - and then ONLY in special cases!) (j) Each File Entry is Composed of a Minimum of 7 words - extra WORDS are allowed o Status Word - File Entry Type (see k below) o 3 words of RAD50 file name (2) and type (1) o Number of Blocks in the File Entry which means that the maximum file is 65535 blocks o Used for TENTATIVE File Entries - used by TSX-PLUS for file times for PERMANENT files - proposed for use for Y10K dates o Creation Date (01-Jan-1972 up to 31-Dec-2099) o Extra WORDS are used by user programs as specified by Number of Extra Bytes (ALWAYS EVEN) in Each File Entry (k) The are (currently - and probably this will NEVER change) ONLY three types of space: o UNUSED - (1000) the space is available o TENTATIVE - (400) the space has been requested o PERMANENT - (2000) the space has been allocated o END OF FILE entries (4000 - only ONE word is then required for the whole file entry) (l) The maximum number of file entries in each directory segment is 72 [=(512-6)/7]. (m) All file entry blocks are contiguous by definition which means that all files are contiguous. Files can be "extended" only if the immediately following file entry is UNUSED and has sufficient blocks available - this is rare and can't be relied upon in most cases. Since the above is already TOO much detail, I will not mention how files are allocated by the USR (User Service Routine) along with how extra directory segments are created. Any questions are welcome! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 4 21:07:49 2003 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Ian Primus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <35161A9C-26D0-11D8-8DE5-000393D7845A@yahoo.com> On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 05:39 PM, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > There's an IBM-written port to the newer (read RISC) AS/400 iron. Yeah, but unfortunately this one is an older CISC machine. I had also checked to see if NetBSD ran on it, but there isn't a port yet, and it doesn't look like there ever will be. And it appears that OS/400 is pure unobtanium. It's too bad, I would love to learn OS/400, and it would be great to get this machine running again, but unless I somehow come up with a system tape, it's just going to be a piece of furniture. Ian Primus ian_primus@yahoo.com From MGemeny at pgcps.org Thu Dec 4 21:22:13 2003 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? Message-ID: I think Hans summed it up quite well, but perhaps didn't go far enough with his thought. Hans Franke wrote: >What pisses me of most is that they want licence for media if they >are formated with FAT. Beside that this is even more a joke than >the Rambus scam, it sets the stage that not only software (and the >underlaying algorythm) is protected by a patend but also the data >generated by this algorythm! >Let's just continue the idea: Assumeing MS had a patent for some >parts of Word, under the above circumstances, every document written >using Word, stored on a media will be the same ... so does MS own >what I write, because I'm using their programm? So, if I happen to be the manufacturer of digital cameras, and I write a program that rearranges the bits on a flash card that was formatted by a microsoft operating system, and that operating system is fooled by my arrangement of the bits, I have to pay microsoft? Even worse is the manufacturer of media. Who is to say that the manufactured is not using a microsoft operating system to format the media in the first place. So now he has to pay a quarter of a US dollar for each piece of media that he formats with his microsoft operating system. When will this trickle down to charging the end users for each disk they format, or for each document they create? "Well, it's only the big manufacturers they are going after." Right? "In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time no one was left to speak up." Pastor Martin Niemoller, Dachau, 1944 Quick! Somebody contact the press! Oh, that's right, we're not supposed to talk to the press. ;-} And besides, such a story in the press would probably just make microsoft stock go UP! Now that's a sick thought. Mike. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 21:25:41 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: from "Fred N. van Kempen" at Dec 5, 3 01:30:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/3e5a94c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 4 21:28:16 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V In-Reply-To: <063d01c3bad1$338807f0$0200a8c0@geoff> from "Geoff Roberts" at Dec 5, 3 12:13:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/52609e11/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 4 21:49:42 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: <35161A9C-26D0-11D8-8DE5-000393D7845A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Yeah, but unfortunately this one is an older CISC machine. I had also > checked to see if NetBSD ran on it, but there isn't a port yet, and it > doesn't look like there ever will be. And it appears that OS/400 is > pure unobtanium. It's too bad, I would love to learn OS/400, and it > would be great to get this machine running again, but unless I somehow > come up with a system tape, it's just going to be a piece of furniture. If anyone ever comes up with some real system tapes, please save them! The lack of "early" IBM software is really annoying (not only AS/400, but for the earlier S/3x and S/3 lines, and even the mainframe lines). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 4 22:55:27 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, William Donzelli wrote: > > THAT is the least useful "history" that I have ever seen about it! "Bill > > gates created...Microsoft purchased the rights"???? and WHAT Intel OS was > > it? > > What is the big deal? Large corporations have been "supplementing" their > history for a long time. It is actually a bit of a challenge to find one > that hasn't at some point. The big deal is that they do it. I don't care how many companies do it. They're all assholes then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 4 23:18:20 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <20031204173722.A31331@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Fred Cisin wrote: > But there were some precursors and warnings, even before IBM got into it, > such as the "serious" renaming of playful company names: > Thinker Toys became Morrow Designs > Kentucky Fried Computer became Northstar Both probably (in the latter for positive) due to threats of legal action. > Intergalactic Digital Research became Digital Research Inc. Really though, Intergalactic is a bit long :) > Parasitic Engineering and Golemics ceased to be significant players, ... Those are just weird. > Computer companies hired advertising agencies, instead of hoky homemade > ads, I do miss the ads showing computers in the middle of wilderness scenes, sometimes accompanied by some sexy (or not) vixen in a mini-skirt and thigh-high boots (or sometimes with nothing at all). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 4 23:52:47 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: BreezeNet data/power modules Message-ID: I have a number of BreezeNet data/power modules. This is a two module set that allows you to run both data and power over a CAT5 cable so that you can power, say, a WAP in a weird location where there is no power for it. It comes with a power supply that puts out 15V AC @ 1.8A (input = 100-240V). The power supply plugs into a "local" module with data in and data/power out. You then plug in a CAT5 cable from data/power out to the "remote" module. The remote module has a data port (which you plug your WAP or remote router into) and a power out jack. Very nifty if you need to bring power to a device that has none nearby (like in a ceiling). These are basically new in the box. I'm asking $5 each plus shipping. Thanks to Lyle Bickley for helping me figure out what these things are :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 5 01:04:56 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031204230204.K37247@newshell.lmi.net> > > Parasitic Engineering and Golemics ceased to be significant players, ... On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Those are just weird. http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n11/30_The_first_decade_of_perso.php "As people started adding peripherals to their Altairs, the limited capacity of the power supply reared its ugly head. Hence, Howard Fulmer brought out a beefy power supply to replace the original Altair unit. Ed Roberts had been attacking the board compatible companies, calling them parasites, so in a burst of honesty, Fulmer called his company Parasitic Engineering." Golemics was Lee Felsenstein's > > Computer companies hired advertising agencies, instead of hoky homemade > > ads, > I do miss the ads showing computers in the middle of wilderness scenes, > sometimes accompanied by some sexy (or not) vixen in a mini-skirt and > thigh-high boots (or sometimes with nothing at all). actually, I was thinking of the OLD days, with a polaroid picture cut out and pasted on typed text From asholz at topinform.com Fri Dec 5 01:22:43 2003 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: PDP11/24 M7133 / KDF11-UA Documentation In-Reply-To: <200312042314.hB4NEQxE026566@spies.com> References: <200312042314.hB4NEQxE026566@spies.com> Message-ID: <3FD03243.1010705@topinform.com> Al, I missed that. Thank you very much. Andreas Al Kossow wrote: >Is there any documentation of this board online? I didn't find any >documentation on Al Kossow's site. > >-- > >www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf > > > > From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 02:24:12 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? (86DOS?) In-Reply-To: <20031204155247.W25087@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20031204114004.D18260@newshell.lmi.net> <1070581378.2483.34.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> <20031204155247.W25087@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1070612070.2417.10.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 15:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > > OK, so I specifically recall "89DOS", and it's stapled yellow books. > "86" not "89"? D'OH! Typo! Yup, eighty-six. From hpd at demus.de Fri Dec 5 03:32:20 2003 From: hpd at demus.de (P.Demus - DEMUS DATENSYSTEME) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: any infos about HP 64000 hard disk structure ??? Message-ID: <3FD050A4.7060701@atlas> Hello ! i'm trying to decode the disc structure of a HP7912 hard disk attached to a HP 64000 uC System. build in 1985! yeaaah I managed to copy the HP7912 sectors on a MO-diskc SCSI on series hp 9000 / 300. i read in the MO disc image on a PC. now i have a 54MB image file. has anybody some infos about structure and tables of the directory of the HP64000 disc format ?? thanks peter -- DEMUS DATENSYSTEME GmbH ? Steinbergstr. 24 D-30559 Hannover ? Germany Tel +49-511-95448-0 ? Fax +49-511-95448-44 http://www.demus.de ? mailto:info@demus.de From Zubla2001 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 04:27:58 2003 From: Zubla2001 at aol.com (Zubla2001@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: HP 2000 BASIC help / TREK73 Message-ID: > What does '14 in a PRINT statement, in front of a quoted string, mean > (eg in PRINT '14"SULU")? I wondered if it were something like PRINT > TAB(14)"... but there are TAB()s elsewhere. A control character, > perhaps? If cursor or screen control, are they octal or decimal (I'd > guess decimal) and is there a table anywhere? decimal. The table in the back of the Access BASIC manual is excellent. Another response to this thread (November) listed a URL. Of interest to people pulling apart the HP as well as programmers: My friends and I once noticed using Access functions (CHR$(7)?) instead of the single quote ('7) actually took up more storage room. There was a maximum line length of somewhere between 254 and 256. Using the single quote (for control chars) allowed for much much longer lines. So something is different in the tokenizing and it also explains why a less readable format was used. Although you get used to it. :-) ~Zubla From Zubla2001 at aol.com Fri Dec 5 04:57:55 2003 From: Zubla2001 at aol.com (Zubla2001@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... Message-ID: <11.1ddcef33.2d01beb3@aol.com> First message, second try. ?Sorry if I mess up. > If anyone ever comes up with some real system tapes, please save them! > The lack of "early" IBM software is really annoying (not only AS/400, but > for the earlier S/3x and S/3 lines, and even the mainframe lines). > > William Donzelli Even that early model had some sort of emulation or compatability modes for S36 and S38. While there may not be a Linux (or AIX) port, there was supposed to be a way to run... NT? from inside some sort of AS400. ?Maybe post-CISC? The AS400 was primarily for RPG and COBOL, but did have other languages. In fact it had C, but I was never quite sure how a ported C program would work with their batch-IO to terminals... The batch/script/command language is very strong and fills several manuals. Manuals! ?200?+ 3" manuals. ?But available on CD for PC or for AS400. >From IBM of course. Nothing at all wrong with having an AS400 reel tape drive... That'd do it for me except for the lic cost. Then Token-ring to an 8228 to a PC with a TR card and a nic. There was a way to start subsystems beyond the OS, but you didn't want to challenge a 9404 too much. Other comm cards you might see could be one of V.35, X.21 or EIA (~RS232) And of course twinaxial connections to the console, printers and CRTs. Have fun. ~Zubla From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 5 05:35:17 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 05 December 2003 00:07 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? > > There is no FAT, or anything like it, in the RT11 structure. Each > directory entry stores the start block number and length for each file, > unused space had directory entries too, and they're sorted in ascending > order of blocks. Files must be contiguous. Furry nuff. I'm pretty sure the docs I had at the time from Digital called it that though. Wonder if I've still got 'em? Hmm. w From runtime at wzrd.com Fri Dec 5 06:09:53 2003 From: runtime at wzrd.com (Don Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: "Woz" IIgs, & Dynabyte computers... Message-ID: <000a01c3bb28$b126ecb0$0164640a@zeus> I know I bought a NEC 8201 in the fall of 1984, and as I remember they had just hit the shelves. Subsequently I bought 13 or 14 more for a special purpose use and kept them in service through 1995...still have some of them. Don Mitchell Runtime Services From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Dec 5 09:46:23 2003 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Intellectual property issues (was: WHERE DID ALL THE SYSTEMS PROGRAMMERS GO?) Message-ID: <20031205154623.47530.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> given the MS FAT discussion, this may not be off topic - http://www.newtechusa.com/PPI/faq.asp From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 5 10:21:32 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4121@MAIL10> <20031204123135.C18260@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00b201c3bb4b$d927a060$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> This list {may} be the best source of information to counter a claim made by MS, direct or implied, that it created FAT. If so, we should compile a single statement of fact and submit it to the public press, using the care this matter deserves. I *don't* know the facts of the case, but I could take a coordinated effort from the list and submit it to my local paper with cover letters, adding any other required items, phone-calls, and so on. By the way, my local paper is the New York Times. Microsoft people aren't losers, they're winners who are trying to re-write history in their own interest as winners tend to do. When they're wrong, bold faced or otherwise, they must be contested. Where else are the facts but on this list? Best Wishes, John A. From rdd at rddavis.org Fri Dec 5 11:31:03 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Intellectual property issues (was: WHERE DID ALL THE SYSTEMS PROGRAMMERS GO?) In-Reply-To: <20031205154623.47530.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031205154623.47530.qmail@web80206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031205172735.GG76196@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Jack Rubin, from writings of Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 07:46:23AM -0800: > given the MS FAT discussion, this may not be off topic - > > http://www.newtechusa.com/PPI/faq.asp XYZZY -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis Restore freedom and liberty to the U.S. Give All Rights Reserved gifts of tar and feathers to liberty and freedom rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 hating, senseless and corrupt, politicrats. End http://www.rddavis.org the un-American Bush-Clinton family dictatorship! From patrick at evocative.com Fri Dec 5 12:24:04 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Intellectual property issues (was: WHERE DID ALL THE SYSTEMSPROGRAMMERS GO?) In-Reply-To: <20031205172735.GG76196@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: > XYZZY A hollow voice says "plugh" From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 5 12:25:14 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: <200312051825.NAA01961@wordstock.com> Check this out: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/05/space.invaders.reut/index.html 10,000 Space Invaders units to be sold in the US for $2,772 apiece. But because of inflation, the cost per game is now going to be 50 cents! Are these people on crack?! What development time went into this? What costs are they recouping? Or do they just want to gouge the classic gamers? Cheers, Bryan Pope From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Dec 5 10:02:13 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Foam replacements Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4125@MAIL10> Hello, all: The other day I pulled my Radio Shack Model 102 out of the hard plastic case and noticed, for the first time, that the foam padding is starting to deteriorate. Does anyone have a source for replacement foam sheets or the like that I could use to replace the foam in the plastic case? I don't have the measurements handy, but it might be about 11" by 18" in size and 2" in depth. Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks. Rich From uadanin at amrmc.com Fri Dec 5 10:52:37 2003 From: uadanin at amrmc.com (Uri Adanin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: pdp11/73 Message-ID: <001b01c3bb50$30537720$040000c0@whl24> Hi Robert, Is it not too late for your offer about pdp11/73? Regards, Uri Adanin AMR Medical Center LLC, 1065 Lake Cook Rd., Wheeling, IL 60090 w. 847-459-9441, ext. 2131 c. 847-691-6327 E-mail: uadanin@amrmc.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Dec 5 12:52:05 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... References: <200312051825.NAA01961@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <002501c3bb60$e0c72d30$1a02a8c0@starship1> Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such a unit together is under $400. Midway has been doing this same thing for a while with its Ms Pac Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile Command/Millipede/Centipede machine out there and one thing that article doesn't mention is just like the Midway machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine with both Space Invaders and Qix together... These are already available in the US, Frontgate has them for $3495 each, you can also find them through Amazon.com and Walmart.com as well... all way overpriced. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > Check this out: > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/05/space.invaders.reut/index.html > > 10,000 Space Invaders units to be sold in the US for $2,772 apiece. But > because of inflation, the cost per game is now going to be 50 cents! > > > Are these people on crack?! What development time went into this? What > costs are they recouping? Or do they just want to gouge the classic > gamers? > > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 13:20:28 2003 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... References: <200312051825.NAA01961@wordstock.com> <002501c3bb60$e0c72d30$1a02a8c0@starship1> Message-ID: My brother-in-law's MAME cabinet features a 27" screen, dual multicontrollers, coin box, car stereo with decent speakers and subwoofer, plays MP3's and movies, SERVES MP3's and movies to the rest of the house (controlled by his iPaq over WiFi :) and plays all the classics, and cost less than $1000. Of couse, building it all and writing the custom software took a while, but it's a sweet machine. I wonder what's in those new boxes.. Think it's just an embedded micro running an emulator? Fewer parts == cheaper to build. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt vendel" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such a unit together is under > $400. Midway has been doing this same thing for a while with its Ms Pac > Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile Command/Millipede/Centipede machine > out there and one thing that article doesn't mention is just like the Midway > machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine with both Space Invaders and > Qix together... > > These are already available in the US, Frontgate has them for $3495 each, > you can also find them through Amazon.com and Walmart.com as well... all > way overpriced. > > > Curt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Pope" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:25 PM > Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/05/space.invaders.reut/index.html > > > > 10,000 Space Invaders units to be sold in the US for $2,772 apiece. But > > because of inflation, the cost per game is now going to be 50 cents! > > > > > > Are these people on crack?! What development time went into this? What > > costs are they recouping? Or do they just want to gouge the classic > > gamers? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan Pope > > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 5 13:40:47 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Dec 5, 03 02:20:28 pm Message-ID: <200312051940.OAA06988@wordstock.com> And thusly Jason McBrien spake: > > My brother-in-law's MAME cabinet features a 27" screen, dual > multicontrollers, coin box, car stereo with decent speakers and subwoofer, > plays MP3's and movies, SERVES MP3's and movies to the rest of the house > (controlled by his iPaq over WiFi :) and plays all the classics, and cost > less than $1000. Of couse, building it all and writing the custom software > took a while, but it's a sweet machine. > Sounds like a nice spring project!! Is there any good places on the web that sell/have plans for arcade cabinets? How does it serve the MP3s? Over ethernet or something else? Is the 27" screen a normal TV put on its side? > I wonder what's in those new boxes.. Think it's just an embedded micro > running an emulator? Fewer parts == cheaper to build. > It will probably be hard to find the board! Cheers, Bryan From rdd at rddavis.org Fri Dec 5 13:57:49 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Intellectual property issues (was: WHERE DID ALL THE SYSTEMSPROGRAMMERS GO?) In-Reply-To: References: <20031205172735.GG76196@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20031205195427.GA81214@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Patrick Rigney, from writings of Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 10:24:04AM -0800: > > XYZZY > > A hollow voice says "plugh" :-) ...or, as we all know from 16-bit AOS/VS (as well as Adventure), "Nothing happens." :-) (the URL to the web site mentioned didn't work) -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 13:49:49 2003 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031205194949.36039.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Probably a 20 square inch off-the-shelf embedded pc based (386/486) single board computer (pc104 or whatever) running DOS or Windows, cheap and development systems widely available. Thats what I would use anyway. --- Jason McBrien wrote: > I wonder what's in those new boxes.. Think it's just > an embedded micro > running an emulator? Fewer parts == cheaper to > build. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Curt vendel" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:52 PM > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > > Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such > a unit together is > under > > $400. Midway has been doing this same thing for > a while with its Ms Pac > > Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile > Command/Millipede/Centipede machine > > out there and one thing that article doesn't > mention is just like the > Midway > > machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine > with both Space Invaders > and > > Qix together... > > > > These are already available in the US, Frontgate > has them for $3495 each, > > you can also find them through Amazon.com and > Walmart.com as well... all > > way overpriced. > > > > > > Curt > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bryan Pope" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:25 PM > > Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > > > > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/05/space.invaders.reut/index.html > > > > > > 10,000 Space Invaders units to be sold in the US > for $2,772 apiece. But > > > because of inflation, the cost per game is now > going to be 50 cents! > > > > > > > > > Are these people on crack?! What development > time went into this? What > > > costs are they recouping? Or do they just want > to gouge the classic > > > gamers? > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Bryan Pope > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 5 13:56:43 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... References: <200312051825.NAA01961@wordstock.com> <002501c3bb60$e0c72d30$1a02a8c0@starship1> Message-ID: <010401c3bb69$e823b400$377ca418@game> > Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such a unit together is under > $400. Midway has been doing this same thing for a while with its Ms Pac > Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile Command/Millipede/Centipede machine > out there and one thing that article doesn't mention is just like the Midway > machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine with both Space Invaders and > Qix together... > > These are already available in the US, Frontgate has them for $3495 each, > you can also find them through Amazon.com and Walmart.com as well... all > way overpriced. > > > Curt Companies need to make a profit, they more they can squeeze out of a customer the better. These units are for arcades I assume, where the operator will make the money back and hopefully then some from kids with pockets full of cash. Not many home users would spend $400 let alone $3495 for a cabinet with just 1 or 2 games in it. I would pump a few quarters into a pacman machine if I ran into one somewhere just because I played quite a few games on them when they were originally released (more quarters then I care to think about). From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Dec 5 14:02:43 2003 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Intellectual property issues (was: WHERE DID ALL THESYSTEMSPROGRAMMERS GO?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > XYZZY > > A hollow voice says "plugh" You're at "Y2" From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 5 14:19:48 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: OT: Necessary rant Message-ID: Who's the asshole that decided an UPDATE command in SQL without a WHERE clause defaults to ALL? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Dec 5 14:28:35 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: OT: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312051228.35852.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hope you had a backup... Lyle On Friday 05 December 2003 12:19, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Who's the asshole that decided an UPDATE command in SQL without a WHERE > clause defaults to ALL? > -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Dec 5 12:51:21 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4126@MAIL10> Interesting clip. I hadn't seen it before. At least this is the real game. If you look at Hammacher-Schlemmer and the holiday issues of similar catalogs, they are selling multi-game units (like Galaga and Qix, MacMan/Ms. PacMan for example) for $3000. I've seen these hybrid games up close at the Fortunoff store near me and they're smaller than the real arcade games and have crappy decals on the front and sides. Even the coin door on the front is a decal -- not that you'd need a real coin door for use at home. For much less you can build a MAME machine (I have a MAME machine in progress) and have as much or more fun with it. Now, in Namco's defense, parts alone, using eBay and Happ Controls as a proxy, might cost $700 or so. I'd figure that $999-$1199 would be a good retail price. Rich Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:25 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Check this out: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/05/space.invaders.reut/index.html 10,000 Space Invaders units to be sold in the US for $2,772 apiece. But because of inflation, the cost per game is now going to be 50 cents! Are these people on crack?! What development time went into this? What costs are they recouping? Or do they just want to gouge the classic gamers? Cheers, Bryan Pope From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Dec 5 13:27:31 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any ideas how to convert a tape cut on an HP2000 into the .tap format used by the SIMH hp2000 simulator? I have the tape and a 9-track tape drive connected to an hp9000 hpux system. thanks muchly! -Bob bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Dec 5 14:41:59 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: References: <200312051825.NAA01961@wordstock.com> <002501c3bb60$e0c72d30$1a02a8c0@starship1> Message-ID: <3FD0ED97.7050703@atarimuseum.com> Thats a good question, it would be nice to know what inside those puppies... Curt Jason McBrien wrote: >My brother-in-law's MAME cabinet features a 27" screen, dual >multicontrollers, coin box, car stereo with decent speakers and subwoofer, >plays MP3's and movies, SERVES MP3's and movies to the rest of the house >(controlled by his iPaq over WiFi :) and plays all the classics, and cost >less than $1000. Of couse, building it all and writing the custom software >took a while, but it's a sweet machine. > >I wonder what's in those new boxes.. Think it's just an embedded micro >running an emulator? Fewer parts == cheaper to build. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Curt vendel" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:52 PM >Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > > >>Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such a unit together is >> >> >under > > >>$400. Midway has been doing this same thing for a while with its Ms Pac >>Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile Command/Millipede/Centipede machine >>out there and one thing that article doesn't mention is just like the >> >> >Midway > > >>machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine with both Space Invaders >> >> >and > > >>Qix together... >> >>These are already available in the US, Frontgate has them for $3495 each, >>you can also find them through Amazon.com and Walmart.com as well... all >>way overpriced. >> >> >>Curt >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Bryan Pope" >>To: >>Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:25 PM >>Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... >> >> >> >> >>>Check this out: >>> >>> >>> >>> >http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/05/space.invaders.reut/index.html > > >>>10,000 Space Invaders units to be sold in the US for $2,772 apiece. But >>>because of inflation, the cost per game is now going to be 50 cents! >>> >>> >>>Are these people on crack?! What development time went into this? What >>>costs are they recouping? Or do they just want to gouge the classic >>>gamers? >>> >>> >>>Cheers, >>> >>>Bryan Pope >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 5 15:08:07 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <3FD0ED97.7050703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt Vendel > Sent: 05 December 2003 20:42 > To: General@jupiter.easily.co.uk; > Discussion@jupiter.easily.co.uk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > Thats a good question, it would be nice to know what inside those > puppies... A big cow made of cash I'd expect..... cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 5 15:11:56 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312051940.OAA06988@wordstock.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope > Sent: 05 December 2003 19:41 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > My brother-in-law's MAME cabinet features a 27" screen, dual > > multicontrollers, coin box, car stereo with decent speakers and > subwoofer, > > plays MP3's and movies, SERVES MP3's and movies to the rest of the house > > (controlled by his iPaq over WiFi :) and plays all the > classics, and cost > > less than $1000. Of couse, building it all and writing the > custom software > > took a while, but it's a sweet machine. > > > > Sounds like a nice spring project!! Is there any good places on the web > that sell/have plans for arcade cabinets? I helped shift some tables for these people a couple of years ago: http://www.digitaltables.co.uk/home.htm Suffice to say they're bloody heavy things and were very popular last time I saw them. A bit pricey at the time mind. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From deritod at yahoo.com.ar Fri Dec 5 15:07:40 2003 From: deritod at yahoo.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?q?dario=20de=20rito?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: pdp8a Message-ID: <20031205210740.40988.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com> Hi , my name is Dario from Argentina I have a PDP8A and a ASR33 teletype, but not work. I built an interface becase I want load the Orient program without the ASR33, the communication works OK, and I have the orient in my PC , but when I try load to the PDP , it not work, The manual said that if the orient is ok load , the PDP give me a message ?00.00 Orient xx.K but nothing happened. Can you help, me? or if you have some experienc e please tell me thanks ------------ Los mejores usados y las m?s tentadoras ofertas de 0km est?n en Yahoo! Autos. Compr? o vend? tu auto en http://autos.yahoo.com.ar From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 15:40:05 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer In-Reply-To: <156.28eabdeb.2cfefe6b@aol.com> References: <156.28eabdeb.2cfefe6b@aol.com> Message-ID: <1070660405.9231.7.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 00:52, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > IIRC the IBM DisplayWriter. The cables were thin and came to a non standard > D sub 9 pin. There was a cut sheet feeder that might plug into the other port. > It has been a long time. > > I think the System 23 also may have connected to that printer also. There > weren't many IBM daisywheel printers. If I recall (or old-memory mumbo jumbo, what's the difference) IBM borrowed the 521x printers from some other system and stuck it on the Displaywriter project. I vaguely recall something like this said in a meeting w/IBMers during the MSDOS project. (They were reticent to reveal proprietary info, but gave me what I needed to get the job done.) The complexity of the printer protocol was clearly not designed for a "pee cee" type system. From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 15:41:23 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer In-Reply-To: <002f01c3b921$37b0aa50$0200000a@xeon> References: <002f01c3b921$37b0aa50$0200000a@xeon> Message-ID: <1070660483.9231.15.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> (Problems with a mailserver, so I'm re-sending. My apologies if this is a duplicate.) On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 14:11, Bill Machacek wrote: > I'd like to find out a little more about the IBM 5216 Wheelprinter I just received. What computers did it work with? There are only 2 female input connectors on the back, one is marked "T" and the other one "P". Anyone have information on the type of computers this unit was setup to work with? > TIA for your responses. If it's anything like the 5218 used on the Displaywriter, well, umm, good luck talking to it without proper documentation. The interface was bit serial I think, I forget electrically what flavor. Logically it was a byte stream, it was very modal (online/offline plus more) and had a complex "packet"-based command structure, even print characters. to printer HDR1 HDR1 DATA from printer RESPONSE Sort of thing. Every switch press generated an interrupt via command response packets, and/or set flags htat you could read via commands. There were pages of commands. To me, in 1982, it seemed extremely complex for a printer. I had to make WordStar talk to it properly, it wasn't easy. From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 15:44:36 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070660676.9231.31.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> (Problems with a mailserver earlier this week, outgoing mail was lost, so I'm re-sending. My apologies if this is a duplicate.) My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn computer on the other side of the HD controller. Construct an electrical interface of the simplest possible hardware to get the job done (electrical interface, buss termination as required, etc) and do the whole job in C or even Perl. Simulating the block structure of the disk would be trivial in software. The hardware handshake and DMA junk would be where the work is -- regardless of the level simulation abstraction, but with say two EPP parallel port cards you could have the handshake nicely defined in (more readable than yelling schematics) code. A mediocre gigaHz cpu has gotta keep up with all but the fastest disk controller of yore. And then later when EIDE and serial ATA are as obsolete as core, your simulator is more likely to port to whatever the crapyp hardware of 2020 is. (The assumption is that translating C, perl, whatever will be easier than soldering.) From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 15:44:57 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: analog computer patch panels In-Reply-To: <009d01c3b7b8$49bc79a0$0100a8c0@SONYDIGITALED> References: <1070243234.15086.13.camel@fiche-wireless.home.wps.com> <009d01c3b7b8$49bc79a0$0100a8c0@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <1070660697.9231.34.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> (Problems with a mailserver earlier this week, outgoing mail was lost, so I'm re-sending. My apologies if this is a duplicate.) On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 19:07, ed sharpe wrote: > we would be interested in getting enough parts to reassemble this beauty! Well, I have two panels only out of dozens, no frames, plus all the racks and equip were scrapped (eg. for metal) years ago. It was a shame, but it was too huge to even THINK about moving, for me. It was a semi-'s worth of stuff, easy. I don't even remember where Ed got it, likely the Lab (eg. Los Alamos) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Jennings" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 6:47 PM > Subject: analog computer patch panels > > > > Hmm, I've got a couple of patch panels identical to the TR-48 shown on > > that URL. I got them from Los Alamos Sales, Ed had some huge, multi-rack > > analog computer that got broken up and scrapped. It was huge, probably a > > dozen racks or more. I took home two panels only. > > > > I was going to just hang them on the wall, they're nice to look at. > > > > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 5 15:44:26 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Teo Zenios" > > > >> Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such a unit together is >under >> $400. Midway has been doing this same thing for a while with its Ms Pac >> Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile Command/Millipede/Centipede machine >> out there and one thing that article doesn't mention is just like the >Midway >> machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine with both Space Invaders >and >> Qix together... >> >> These are already available in the US, Frontgate has them for $3495 each, >> you can also find them through Amazon.com and Walmart.com as well... all >> way overpriced. >> >> >> Curt > >Companies need to make a profit, they more they can squeeze out of a >customer the better. These units are for arcades I assume, where the >operator will make the money back and hopefully then some from kids with >pockets full of cash. Not many home users would spend $400 let alone $3495 >for a cabinet with just 1 or 2 games in it. > >I would pump a few quarters into a pacman machine if I ran into one >somewhere just because I played quite a few games on them when they were >originally released (more quarters then I care to think about). > > Hi One thing to consider. If they were making so much money that it was a overwelming gouge, other would compete against them. Arcade machines are not cheap to make. Doing 10K units of a 10 year lifetime is not a large run. The CPU board is most likely designed in house because they can not depend on outside vendors to keep an obsolete design. Any uP design is obsolete within 6 months to a year. They need a longer product life. Knowing the methods used to create these arcade machines, I would say that $3K is a little on the high side but not all that much. One wouldn't stay in business doing these for anything less then $2.5K. Maybe you know something I don't. Dwight From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Dec 5 15:59:59 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer In-Reply-To: <1070660483.9231.15.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> References: <002f01c3b921$37b0aa50$0200000a@xeon> <1070660483.9231.15.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: <200312051359.59036.lbickley@bickleywest.com> According to IBM (see below), you can use an IBM Proprinter or Epson FX-1050 driver with this printer. I suspect that there may be missing functionality, but at least it's easier to find documentation on Epson printers for a start.... Lyle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5216 Generic Text, IBM Proprinter, Epson FX-1050. These drivers function best in Win 3.1 environment. There are no known drivers which offer complete compatibility with Win 95, Win 98, or Win NT. If PC or LAN printing with these operating systems is desired, IBM recommends replacing this printer. No PC or LAN drivers are available for this printer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Friday 05 December 2003 13:41, Tom Jennings wrote: > (Problems with a mailserver, so I'm re-sending. My apologies if this is a > duplicate.) > > On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 14:11, Bill Machacek wrote: > > I'd like to find out a little more about the IBM 5216 Wheelprinter I just > > received. What computers did it work with? There are only 2 female > > input connectors on the back, one is marked "T" and the other one "P". > > Anyone have information on the type of computers this unit was setup to > > work with? TIA for your responses. > > If it's anything like the 5218 used on the Displaywriter, well, umm, > good luck talking to it without proper documentation. > > The interface was bit serial I think, I forget electrically what flavor. > Logically it was a byte stream, it was very modal (online/offline plus > more) and had a complex "packet"-based command structure, even print > characters. > > to printer HDR1 HDR1 DATA > from printer RESPONSE > > Sort of thing. Every switch press generated an interrupt via command > response packets, and/or set flags htat you could read via commands. > > There were pages of commands. To me, in 1982, it seemed extremely > complex for a printer. I had to make WordStar talk to it properly, it > wasn't easy. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Dec 5 16:08:54 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:41 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer In-Reply-To: <200312051359.59036.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <002f01c3b921$37b0aa50$0200000a@xeon> <1070660483.9231.15.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> <200312051359.59036.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200312051408.54855.lbickley@bickleywest.com> More on 5216... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 5216 Model 001 printer attaches to a PC or LAN via parallel connection, Model 002 attaches to a PC or LAN via serial connection. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Friday 05 December 2003 13:59, Lyle Bickley wrote: > According to IBM (see below), you can use an IBM Proprinter or Epson > FX-1050 driver with this printer. I suspect that there may be missing > functionality, but at least it's easier to find documentation on Epson > printers for a start.... > > Lyle > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------- 5216 Generic Text, IBM Proprinter, Epson > FX-1050. These drivers function best in Win 3.1 environment. There are no > known drivers which offer complete compatibility with Win 95, Win 98, or > Win NT. If PC or LAN printing with these operating systems is desired, IBM > recommends replacing this printer. No PC or LAN drivers are available for > this printer. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------------------- > > On Friday 05 December 2003 13:41, Tom Jennings wrote: > > (Problems with a mailserver, so I'm re-sending. My apologies if this is a > > duplicate.) > > > > On Tue, 2003-12-02 at 14:11, Bill Machacek wrote: > > > I'd like to find out a little more about the IBM 5216 Wheelprinter I > > > just received. What computers did it work with? There are only 2 > > > female input connectors on the back, one is marked "T" and the other > > > one "P". Anyone have information on the type of computers this unit was > > > setup to work with? TIA for your responses. > > > > If it's anything like the 5218 used on the Displaywriter, well, umm, > > good luck talking to it without proper documentation. > > > > The interface was bit serial I think, I forget electrically what flavor. > > Logically it was a byte stream, it was very modal (online/offline plus > > more) and had a complex "packet"-based command structure, even print > > characters. > > > > to printer HDR1 HDR1 DATA > > from printer RESPONSE > > > > Sort of thing. Every switch press generated an interrupt via command > > response packets, and/or set flags htat you could read via commands. > > > > There were pages of commands. To me, in 1982, it seemed extremely > > complex for a printer. I had to make WordStar talk to it properly, it > > wasn't easy. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 5 15:44:26 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Teo Zenios" > > > >> Its ridiculous price gouging, the cost to put such a unit together is >under >> $400. Midway has been doing this same thing for a while with its Ms Pac >> Man/Galaga units, Atari has a Missile Command/Millipede/Centipede machine >> out there and one thing that article doesn't mention is just like the >Midway >> machine, the Taito unit is also a dual machine with both Space Invaders >and >> Qix together... >> >> These are already available in the US, Frontgate has them for $3495 each, >> you can also find them through Amazon.com and Walmart.com as well... all >> way overpriced. >> >> >> Curt > >Companies need to make a profit, they more they can squeeze out of a >customer the better. These units are for arcades I assume, where the >operator will make the money back and hopefully then some from kids with >pockets full of cash. Not many home users would spend $400 let alone $3495 >for a cabinet with just 1 or 2 games in it. > >I would pump a few quarters into a pacman machine if I ran into one >somewhere just because I played quite a few games on them when they were >originally released (more quarters then I care to think about). > > Hi One thing to consider. If they were making so much money that it was a overwelming gouge, other would compete against them. Arcade machines are not cheap to make. Doing 10K units of a 10 year lifetime is not a large run. The CPU board is most likely designed in house because they can not depend on outside vendors to keep an obsolete design. Any uP design is obsolete within 6 months to a year. They need a longer product life. Knowing the methods used to create these arcade machines, I would say that $3K is a little on the high side but not all that much. One wouldn't stay in business doing these for anything less then $2.5K. Maybe you know something I don't. Dwight From patrick at evocative.com Fri Dec 5 16:30:46 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Who's the asshole that decided an UPDATE command in SQL without a WHERE > clause defaults to ALL? > Ouch. Same for DELETE by the way. This may be a good opportunity to pick up the thread about MySQL and other databases. :-) One of the things that mission-critical-appropriate databases provide, IMHO, is a running transaction log or similar mechanism that facilitates not only transaction management and rollback, but also backup and recovery up to a point in time. I'm pretty sure MySQL doesn't offer this. Does anyone know if PostgreSQL does? Patrick From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Dec 5 16:38:59 2003 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4126@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20031205223859.68934.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Cini, Richard" > Now, in Namco's defense, parts alone, using eBay and > Happ Controls as a > proxy, might cost $700 or so. I'd figure that > $999-$1199 would be a good > retail price. > Yea but setting a retail price 30% greater then your parts cost would be a quick way to go bankrupt. 300% to 400% markup is more typical for the quantities they are talking about. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 5 16:28:47 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200312052242.RAA21339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> ["Dwight K. Elvey" , writing about a $2,772 price for a new Space Invaders arcade box] > One thing to consider. If they were making so much money that it was > a overwelming gouge, other would compete against them. Good point. > Arcade machines are not cheap to make. Also true - and don't forget that while you can maybe put together a MAME box running the game for $500, you need not only that but all the original human-interface devices (joystick etc), _and_ they need to be able to stand up under years of arcade-level punishment, including exasperated gorillas getting fed up with the game and shoving the joystick hard enough to shake the whole box. I have a spinner connected up to one of my parallel ports. The human-interface part of it is a $75 optical shaft encoder. It works fine for me, but it couldn't handle people getting rough with it; even at quantity-1e4 prices, I wouldn't want to put anything less than $100 into the spinner. (Space Invaders may not use a spinner, but the principle applies.) The cabinet is another $100, perhaps more after you include all the artwork...by the time you add it all up and add a couple of layers' markup, $2772 doesn't sound unreasonable. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 5 17:09:24 2003 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Necessary rant References: Message-ID: <3FD11024.B005781F@xs4all.nl> Oracle 10g can do that. Basically you can do a flashback of a database or a table to a point in history. Ed Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > > > Who's the asshole that decided an UPDATE command in SQL without a WHERE > > clause defaults to ALL? > > > > Ouch. Same for DELETE by the way. > > This may be a good opportunity to pick up the thread about MySQL and other > databases. :-) > > One of the things that mission-critical-appropriate databases provide, IMHO, > is a running transaction log or similar mechanism that facilitates not only > transaction management and rollback, but also backup and recovery up to a > point in time. I'm pretty sure MySQL doesn't offer this. Does anyone know > if PostgreSQL does? > > Patrick -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn onbetrouwbaar quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.groenenberg.net | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Wie mij te na komt zal het weten. '97 TL1000S | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:13:55 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: 05 December 2003 21:44 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > One thing to consider. If they were making so much money that it > was a overwelming gouge, other would compete against them. Arcade > machines are not cheap to make. Doing 10K units of a 10 year lifetime > is not a large run. The CPU board is most likely designed in house > because they can not depend on outside vendors to keep an obsolete > design. Any uP design is obsolete within 6 months to a year. They > need a longer product life. Knowing the methods used to create > these arcade machines, I would say that $3K is a little on the > high side but not all that much. One wouldn't stay in business doing > these for anything less then $2.5K. Maybe you know something I don't. Hang on, given current technology are you saying that these people are spending time and money actually DESIGNING new boards for 20 year old games that can run on mobile phones? Even paying the original licensors a fee per cab you can get Space Invaders running on an old 386 for next to nothing. The controllers and buttons are readily available so you could do it yourself for a very small fee. Has the point here gone rushing past my rather tired head? cheers PS I've just knocked an entire glass of red wine over my legs, testbed PC (fortunately not running), 2 production machines (fronts only), floorboards, stuff lying round waiting to be sold etc, components, docs and even my powermac G3, which should be out of harms way. Suffice to say I'm not happy. -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 5 17:27:34 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: <200312052327.PAA05663@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Witchy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey >> Sent: 05 December 2003 21:44 >> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... >> >> One thing to consider. If they were making so much money that it >> was a overwelming gouge, other would compete against them. Arcade >> machines are not cheap to make. Doing 10K units of a 10 year lifetime >> is not a large run. The CPU board is most likely designed in house >> because they can not depend on outside vendors to keep an obsolete >> design. Any uP design is obsolete within 6 months to a year. They >> need a longer product life. Knowing the methods used to create >> these arcade machines, I would say that $3K is a little on the >> high side but not all that much. One wouldn't stay in business doing >> these for anything less then $2.5K. Maybe you know something I don't. > >Hang on, given current technology are you saying that these people are >spending time and money actually DESIGNING new boards for 20 year old games >that can run on mobile phones? >Even paying the original licensors a fee per cab you can get Space Invaders >running on an old 386 for next to nothing. The controllers and buttons are >readily available so you could do it yourself for a very small fee. You miss the point. That board source needs to be around for 10 to 15 years. The only way to do that is to make them your self. Actually, they often use a common board for many different models. They are still custom and there isn't a truly economical to get around this. It is the nature of the business. In the near future, you'll see things changing, even for video. Next year the vga signal you depended on might not be there. It cost quite a bit to change what one is doing, even if it seems obsolete to someone on the outside. Dwight > >Has the point here gone rushing past my rather tired head? > >cheers > >PS I've just knocked an entire glass of red wine over my legs, testbed PC >(fortunately not running), 2 production machines (fronts only), floorboards, >stuff lying round waiting to be sold etc, components, docs and even my >powermac G3, which should be out of harms way. Suffice to say I'm not happy. > >-- >adrian/witchy >www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum >www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:31:26 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312052242.RAA21339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of der Mouse > Sent: 05 December 2003 22:29 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > Also true - and don't forget that while you can maybe put together a > MAME box running the game for $500, you need not only that but all the > original human-interface devices (joystick etc), _and_ they need to be > able to stand up under years of arcade-level punishment, including > exasperated gorillas getting fed up with the game and shoving the > joystick hard enough to shake the whole box. Hahahaha! You can buy new PCs for less than $500! http://www.ultimarc.com/ and in particular: http://www.ultimarc.com/orderp.html These people do arcade quality sticks and buttons. Build the cab yourself. A half decent MAME box can be done for less than ukp100 ($62.50) for classic games. Ferchrissakes, at computer fairs here in England you can buy Pentium 3 class machines for ukp80 ($50). If an exasperated gorilla breaks your joystick replace it for ~ukp11 ($7) Where's the expense? cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From aek at spies.com Fri Dec 5 17:34:40 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion Message-ID: <200312052334.hB5NYew7017007@spies.com> > Any ideas how to convert a tape cut on an HP2000 into the .tap format > used by the SIMH hp2000 simulator? Eric Smith has a program called tapecopy that will do this under Linux .tap is with a single byte of 0 for a tape mark. To create a .tap file from a real tape you: read a tape record if it is a tape mark, put out a byte of zero else write the record length write the data write the record length From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:45:07 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312051940.OAA06988@wordstock.com> References: <200312051940.OAA06988@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1070663974.31033.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 19:40, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Jason McBrien spake: > > > > My brother-in-law's MAME cabinet features a 27" screen, dual > Sounds like a nice spring project!! Is there any good places on the web > that sell/have plans for arcade cabinets? Indeed it does! I have a 'proper' old goldfish-bowl style 19" ex-Sun monitor that's reserved for just such a cabinet one day, when space permits (as I want the authentic feel of the cabinet too, not a newer flat screen). I had it running happily with the DOS version of MAME a couple of years ago (which also had the advantage over Windows / Linux that it could just be switched off without the need to be shut down) Last time I had a serious look at this (and had a homebrew cocktail cabinet machine up and running with a 15" screen) there were ROMs and plans aplenty out on the 'net for download. One problem I found was that I could find nowhere in the UK to supply the 'proper' big round pushbutton controls as used on the old arcade machines - all the ones sold here were too small. I had a quick look on the 'net about a year ago though, and it seems like all the old game manufacturers had got upset over copyright issues and virtually all of the ROM sites had been shut down. I guess they hadn't given up on the idea of making a huge profit on this again one day, and now it looks like that day may be here... > How does it serve the MP3s? Over ethernet or something else? I'm curious on that too - another project I was wondering about as I'm fed up hauling CDs out to the garage when I'm working there and them getting all dusty.. > > I wonder what's in those new boxes.. Think it's just an embedded micro > > running an emulator? Fewer parts == cheaper to build. Maybe they still have a stockpile of the original Z80 (and friends) boards and are just dropping those straight in... :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:45:12 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070660676.9231.31.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> References: <1070660676.9231.31.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: <1070663281.31033.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 21:44, Tom Jennings wrote: > My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn > computer on the other side of the HD controller. > > Construct an electrical interface of the simplest possible hardware to > get the job done (electrical interface, buss termination as required, > etc) and do the whole job in C or even Perl. I agree, with the only caveat being that the computer required doesn't have to be something costing a large amount of money. If it needs something with a CPU in the GHz range then no thanks (personally), but if all that's needed is (using a PC for the sake of argument) a high end 486 or low end Pentium class board (i.e. that can be had for free / beer money) then it seems like a reasonable reuse of hardware which has no collection value anyway. As you say, do the bulk of the work in software. Use a free OS (or a M$ one if you desperately want the financial outlay) and you have all the necessary drivers already for the 'rest' of the system (serial / Ethernet / IDE disk / SCSI disk / whatever) to make whatever solution suits. The only coding effort is to talk to the custom homebrew interface that handles ST506 or whatever flavour of drive you're needing to emulate. This could simply read / write to a file image that represented the emulated drive somehow. The surrounding OS and configuration would take care of managing that file, whether it be a file on local or network storage. The hardware interface is the problem; in the case of ST506 it sounds non-trivial and that's even assuming that once built the data stream could be decoded and generated by the software (as I get the impression that said data stream can change widely depending on what controller was used to format the hard drive that you're emulating) It does seem like a worthwhile project for someone who could take it on though, as many older hard drives are coming to the end of their useful lives. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:46:39 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070660676.9231.31.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Dec 5, 3 01:44:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/10cc7c9a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:31:32 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Intellectual property issues (was: WHERE DID ALL THE SYSTEMS In-Reply-To: <20031205172735.GG76196@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Dec 5, 3 12:27:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 47 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/f04dee77/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 17:38:49 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: pdp8a In-Reply-To: <20031205210740.40988.qmail@web11401.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?dario=20de=20rito?=" at Dec 5, 3 06:07:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/1036e296/attachment.ksh From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 5 18:10:45 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 05 December 2003 23:47 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system > RTE6/VM? > > > My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn > > computer on the other side of the HD controller. > > BLETCH!!! one reason I work with classic computers is to get away from > this rediculous modern notion that the way to solve a problem is to throw > CPU power at it without even thinking if there's an elegant solution... Did someone mention Commodore PET? :) w From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 5 18:49:48 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: <200312060049.QAA05703@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Witchy > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of der Mouse >> Sent: 05 December 2003 22:29 >> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... >> >> Also true - and don't forget that while you can maybe put together a >> MAME box running the game for $500, you need not only that but all the >> original human-interface devices (joystick etc), _and_ they need to be >> able to stand up under years of arcade-level punishment, including >> exasperated gorillas getting fed up with the game and shoving the >> joystick hard enough to shake the whole box. > >Hahahaha! You can buy new PCs for less than $500! > >http://www.ultimarc.com/ > >and in particular: > >http://www.ultimarc.com/orderp.html > Hi Sounds like you should go into the business. You seem to have it all worked out. I'm sure you can undercut the ones who've been doing it for years and just barely staying in business ( most have gone out of business ). Good Luck. Dwight From spedraja at ono.com Fri Dec 5 19:06:57 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) References: Message-ID: <001101c3bb95$3f50ffa0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Hello all. I am doing a hobbyist research about the origins of Arpanet, and for my surprise the original Arpanet protocol (represented in the STD39 document) was declared historic in 2001, retired from the STD list and substituted for one reference to BBN to obtain the document. I've contacted them and... they can't provide me the document, named BBN Report 1822 inside the company. Can someone helps me, please ? I should agree too other providings of Internet RFCs or STDs retired of the official list. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 20:30:07 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070677807.9783.250.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 15:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn > > computer on the other side of the HD controller. > > BLETCH!!! one reason I work with classic computers is to get away from > this rediculous modern notion that the way to solve a problem is to throw > CPU power at it without even thinking if there's an elegant solution... Eh. It's unaesthetic, but computrons cost nothing. I agree with you, cpu speeds are a foolish goal generally, but I was being somewhat arch; eg. a 'throwaway' PC has more computing power than, etc. If a purist sort of elegance is your goal, then by all means go that way. Not only do I understand that, I practice it in many areas, fanatically. But a simulated device that allows a 'classic' environment to otherwise live, fine by me. > Err, the interface is the tricky part (I've got some sketched-out > schematics of ideas I've had -- getting the darn thing to work at 50-80 > MHz and use easy-to-get components is the hard part...). Oh, agreed. For fast stuff then hardware is currently the only approach. No argument here! > > readable than yelling schematics) code. > > That depends on who you are. Personally, I have no problems at all > understanding a 50 page schematic, but don't like reading long source > listings... I have no problem with complex schematics nor software listings. But like it or not, code is more portable than hardware; making an SMD -> EIDE interface in hardware is the best solution -- until EIDE is as obsolete as SMD. It'll be sooner than we like. To reiterate, for simulating high-speed interfaces, hardware is probably the only choice. The definition of "high speed" changes daily... From tomj at wps.com Fri Dec 5 20:45:13 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070663281.31033.42.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070660676.9231.31.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> <1070663281.31033.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1070678713.9232.266.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Construct an electrical interface of the simplest possible hardware to > > get the job done (electrical interface, buss termination as required, > > etc) and do the whole job in C or even Perl. > > I agree, with the only caveat being that the computer required doesn't > have to be something costing a large amount of money. As you point out, it can be a case-of-beer's-worth of computer, for many simulated devices. > The only coding effort is to talk to the custom homebrew interface that > handles ST506 or whatever flavour of drive you're needing to emulate. I take it ST506 has analog data for a controller-side separator; this makes it harder, but as others point out, it could be 'tricked' or probably simulated with an 8-bit flash converter, and/or use Duell's idea for an analog sector recorder! Disk size being what it is today, you could probably record each "sector" as AtoD'd analog data in a userland program. (My LGP-21's rotating memory probably contains interesting data, so I'm probably going to copy the tracks (32 physical) to disk with an opamp on the head windings driving a sound card, and post-process the NRZ data later. I'll likely take multiple copies of each track for safety.) > The hardware interface is the problem; in the case of ST506 it sounds > non-trivial and that's even assuming that once built the data stream > could be decoded and generated by the software (as I get the impression > that said data stream can change widely depending on what controller was > used to format the hard drive that you're emulating) I'm guessing that for slow interfaces, SASI or maybe ST506, you could make a semi-generic hardware interface that had a dozen latched output bits, some input bits, an 8-bit DAC and ADC, and with only enough hardware drivers to talk to it, do the rest of the simulator in software. DMA-speed interfaces like SMD would require hardware buffering, and delays could generate timing issues in the controller. But I bet a lot of machines could use a slow interface. From mcwood at t-online.de Fri Dec 5 19:12:01 2003 From: mcwood at t-online.de (marc holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation In-Reply-To: <200312020702.hB271nVw096887@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi, I think what a lot of people need is something like this here http://www.wilsonlabs.com/wbc512.htm . It's a SCSI replacement for Maxtor MFM Disks like XT-1140 or even XT2190. But they want $995 ... Best Regards, Marc Holz Perhaps they might give a better price to a large number of hobbyists. From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Dec 5 22:08:23 2003 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: IBM 5216 printer Message-ID: <11c.29144706.2d02b037@aol.com> My bad. What I was remember was the 5218 not the 5216. Do you have a picture? My memory is not what it was, especially for non favorite printers. >From the IBM info I would say this was the Wheelwriter printer that was concurrent with the PS/2 line of computers. It was also related to the Wheelwriter series of typewriters, the last, I think, being the Wheelwriter 7s. If it has a parallel port it is this daisywriter printer not the older one. What ports does it have again? Paxton Astoria, OR From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 5 22:17:25 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Witchy" at Dec 6, 03 00:10:45 am Message-ID: <200312060417.XAA06753@wordstock.com> And thusly Witchy spake: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 05 December 2003 23:47 > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system > > RTE6/VM? > > > > > My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn > > > computer on the other side of the HD controller. > > > > BLETCH!!! one reason I work with classic computers is to get away from > > this rediculous modern notion that the way to solve a problem is to throw > > CPU power at it without even thinking if there's an elegant solution... > > Did someone mention Commodore PET? :) ? But isn't the PET an elegant "solution"? The computer does the computing working and the disk drive(s) do the disk work.. Or am I missing the point completely?! Cheers, Bryan Pope From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 5 22:24:40 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: from "Witchy" at Dec 5, 03 09:11:56 pm Message-ID: <200312060424.XAA30937@wordstock.com> And thusly Witchy spake: > > > > > > > > Sounds like a nice spring project!! Is there any good places on the web > > that sell/have plans for arcade cabinets? > > I helped shift some tables for these people a couple of years ago: > > http://www.digitaltables.co.uk/home.htm > > Suffice to say they're bloody heavy things and were very popular last time I > saw them. A bit pricey at the time mind. > > cheers Actually I was looking for a website that had/sold plans to build my own arcade cabinet.. That's why I said *spring* project cause I would need to keep all of the wood dust outside and away from my computers... Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 5 22:52:22 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070677807.9783.250.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Dec 5, 3 06:30:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2766 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031206/8b2574d1/attachment.ksh From aek at spies.com Fri Dec 5 23:10:53 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) Message-ID: <200312060510.hB65Ar2v024924@spies.com> > Can someone helps me, please ? It is on my list of things to look for. BBN 1822 describes the host to IMP protocol I'm hoping there is a copy in the SRI archives at the Computer History Museum. From rdd at rddavis.org Fri Dec 5 23:33:20 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme (was: FAT file system...) In-Reply-To: References: <20031204173722.A31331@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20031206053001.GD81214@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Vintage Computer Festival, from writings of Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 09:18:20PM -0800: > I do miss the ads showing computers in the middle of wilderness scenes, > sometimes accompanied by some sexy (or not) vixen in a mini-skirt and > thigh-high boots (or sometimes with nothing at all). Well then, why not use pictures like that to advertise the VCF? Surely none of us would object. :-) Actually, turning the event itself into something reminiscent of a live B-movie (e.g. "Biker Chicks Meet the Swamp Monster" or "Revenge of the Zombie Cave Girls from Transylvania") combined with lots of vintage computer related activities would be great! Hey, whatever happened to all of those good B movie like that which were on cable TV at night (before cable TV became boring)? Years ago, I used to stay up late and hack code while watching them. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 6 02:18:51 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > One thing to consider. If they were making so much money that it >was a overwelming gouge, other would compete against them. Arcade >machines are not cheap to make. Doing 10K units of a 10 year lifetime >is not a large run. The CPU board is most likely designed in house >because they can not depend on outside vendors to keep an obsolete >design. Any uP design is obsolete within 6 months to a year. They >need a longer product life. Knowing the methods used to create >these arcade machines, I would say that $3K is a little on the >high side but not all that much. One wouldn't stay in business doing >these for anything less then $2.5K. Maybe you know something I don't. >Dwight I'm not sure that $3k is really that much on the high side. As an example, the board for SNK Vs. Capcom started out at something like $1600, normal Neo-Geo games start out at less that $1k, but are only a cartridge, this is the first one that they've released in a long time that was a Jamma PCB. Also a brand-new cabinet isn't exactly cheap. Of course the arcade systems based on modern 2D or 3D technology will cost you even more, the Neo-Geo games are based on mature hardware that's about 12-14 years old. Still, in the case of Space Invaders, I'm wondering if they don't just have a PC in there with USB controllers. In that case the only real cost is the cabinet, and they are gouging. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From g-wright at att.net Sat Dec 6 00:05:14 2003 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Need help with 2 projects. (TI and Xerox) Message-ID: <120620030605.18132.3220@att.net> Hi, All I am looking for repair manuals for a TI 990/12 Business system. mine has no output from the Power Supply board. Fans come on. I have dozens of manuals but all have to do with operations and software. The only service info. is a folder with full of Xerox tech call logs and reapir invoices. The second machine is a Xerox Star. I have the software and operating manuals. I would like to find the stand alone common software disk or a disk image. I have only the network disks and booting it with out the network server is a pain. Of coarse if someone in the Seattle area has a Xerox 860 server they want to part with I can have my own Xerox network and Space heaters. ;-) I would also like to find the sys admin. type manuals. (set up, software install) Thanks, In advance Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. g-wright@att.net From vollbrec at iastate.edu Sat Dec 6 02:08:42 2003 From: vollbrec at iastate.edu (Erik Vollbrecht) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Dayna Etherprint Message-ID: Hi Jim, Are you the Jim Arnott that posted knowledge on how to use Dayna Etherprint box? I found the thread in a mail list. If so, would you be willing to try and help me out with trying to set one up for my home network? Thanks, Erik -- ________________________________________________ Erik Vollbrecht Department of Genetics, Development and Cell Biology 2206 Molecular Biology Building Iowa State University Ames, IA, 50011 office: 515-294-9009 lab: 515-294-0137 fax: 515-294-6755 email: vollbrec@iastate.edu ________________________________________________ From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sat Dec 6 02:27:35 2003 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Patrick Rigney wrote: > One of the things that mission-critical-appropriate databases provide, IMHO, > is a running transaction log or similar mechanism that facilitates not only > transaction management and rollback, but also backup and recovery up to a > point in time. I'm pretty sure MySQL doesn't offer this. Does anyone know > if PostgreSQL does? MySQL does with InnoDB. PostgreSQL has for a longer period of time; I've used MySQL for many years now. It's an incredible database. I've yet to need anything else... perhaps thats a reflection on my hubris in accepting an RDBMS - but I've released multiple pieces of software that run on MySQL, and never wanted. Of course, I'm biased. But until you try it, you never appreciate it. Perhaps the same could be said for my not trying Oracle... but you know, that lacking multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars for licences :) I've never used PostgreSQL either - but I know its an extremely fine RDBMS, not as fast as My, but has a number of extra features that is desirable to many developers. At any rate, for what its worth, my opinion. I've only been using MySQL for five years now :) JP From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Dec 6 19:22:13 2003 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Dayna Etherprint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031206165747.032c3ec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 02:08 AM 12/6/03 -0600, Erik Vollbrecht wrote: >Hi Jim, > >Are you the Jim Arnott that posted knowledge on how to use Dayna >Etherprint box? I found the thread in a mail list. If so, would you be >willing to try and help me out with trying to set one up for my home network? Etherprint should just work, only catch I have run across is that many switches don't pass ethertalk packets, and thats what Appletalk uses over ethernet, not standard TCP/IP. Hubs work fine, but only some switches. On the mac you select ethernet in the Appletalk control panel, and any devices that support appletalk hooked up to the localtalk side of the Etherprint should just show up in the chooser just as if the device were on a localtalk segment directly connected to the mac. From ohh at drizzle.com Sat Dec 6 19:18:46 2003 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades.. In-Reply-To: <200312052144.NAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: I actually did some coin-op design and hardware consultation in my youth, as an independent contractor, and the economics there have some different aspects from your so-called "normal" computing world. :) Even in the "boom" of video arcade games, around 1981-1984 or so, a production run of a mere 10,000 machines was considered a noteworthy success story. Most machines were lucky to see a sales mark of around 2,000 units. With that in mind, the manufacturers had to price their units in such a way that they could recoup the costs of design, artwork, retooling, marketing and overhead with a relatively small number of sales. There was also a "novelty factor" - when a new game was released, even if it caught on and was successful and popular, the manufacturers still had a window of only about six months (at longest) when the game would still be popular enough to sell in great numbers. This meant that the number of units a maufacturer could crank out in a short period of time was an important factor in their odds of success or failure - even if you had a wildly popular game, if you could only manufacture ten per week you'd never be able to recoup your investment before the sales window closed and some _other_ game became the hot new trend. :) So manufacturers, in order to survive, not only had to have facilities for building a game, they had to have enough facilities to build a _lot_ of units of the game in a short time. The overhead of keeping a large manufacturing capacity meant, yes, you had to charge more per unit to keep your business viable. There were some constraints on manufacturing as well which bear consideration. It's been noted that you'd be likely (in fact, you'd be _certain_) to have some irate gorilla pounding the hell out of the machine at some point, so joysticks, controls, and so forth had to be built _extremely_ heavy-duty. (To the poster who suggested using cheap joysticks and simply replacing them, the problems that would develop from that would be A) that you'd have to make those repairs all the time; B) that the machine, when broken, generates no income but does take up valuable space while you're waiting for the repair guy to come by on his next trip; C) those repairmen charge a lot, too, and you'd be sitting there with your machines generating no income to pay them; and D) you don't sell a lot of machines when they have a reputation for being broken a significant portion of the time.) But other manufacturing constraints were noteworthy as well. For example, the systems had to be accessible for easy repairs while _at the same time_ they had to be completely inaccessible to hackers (yes, coin-op hackers do exist) and also thieves who want the machine's earnings (and, yes, I've examined machines which have been broken into for the loot). It's also worth noting the liability issues [1] for big heavy machines put out in public for children to play with and climb on and yank by the joysticks and... Well, you get the idea. :) So $3,000 for a coin-op "Space Invaders", even without some of the marketing costraints above, doesn't surprise me all that much. Hell, adjusting for inflation from the time of its original manufacture, it's actually not a bad price. :) [1] - And it seems to me that we Amurrkins, at least, have actually become _more_ litigation-driven than we were in the '80s. I'm wondering if a "Space-Invaders-wrist" class-action suit will be inevitably coming along about a year from now. :/ [2] [2] - Which begs the question: do you think the new "Space Invaders" cabinets will be festooned with warning labels? "CAUTION: May cause epilepsy. People with susceptibility to carpal-tunnel syndrome should avoid playing this game. Product may lead to addiction. Manufacturer is not responsible for player's loss of income. Behavior of alien beings in this game is not intended to stereotype, represent or disparage actual alien entities. No alien life-forms were harmed in the manufacture of this product..." -O.- From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 12:39:05 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070660676.9231.31.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > And then later when EIDE and serial ATA are as obsolete as core, your > simulator is more likely to port to whatever the crapyp hardware of 2020 > is. > > (The assumption is that translating C, perl, whatever will be easier > than soldering.) Also assuming ECP parallel ports will be resident on the crappy hardware of the future. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 6 12:17:36 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 06 December 2003 08:19 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > Still, in the case of Space Invaders, I'm wondering if they don't > just have a PC in there with USB controllers. In that case the > only real cost is the cabinet, and they are gouging. This is my point exactly. Of course, the main problem with building yer own MAME cab for sale will be licensing the ROMs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Digital Tables people I mentioned rely on the buyer putting their own MAME stuff on so's to avoid getting hit by the license brick. cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Dec 6 11:40:46 2003 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: VME-based Transputer boards are now on ebay Message-ID: <0HPH004MAIFW4A@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, This is one of mine (shameless plug): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2771400232 Cheers, Ram From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 11:54:35 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: OT: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: <200312051228.35852.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Hope you had a backup... No, but I did have the original source data file so I just had to reimport. I really need to get my backup system automated :/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 6 12:14:43 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <200312060424.XAA30937@wordstock.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope > Sent: 06 December 2003 04:25 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > I helped shift some tables for these people a couple of years ago: > > > > http://www.digitaltables.co.uk/home.htm > > > > Suffice to say they're bloody heavy things and were very > popular last time I > > saw them. A bit pricey at the time mind. > > > > cheers > > Actually I was looking for a website that had/sold plans to build my own > arcade cabinet.. That's why I said *spring* project cause I > would need to > keep all of the wood dust outside and away from my computers... This is true. I'm going to try and get an old scrap cabinet that I can spruce up and stick in the hallway. Even the Missus says she doesn't mind that as long as I put Ms.Pac Man on :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From cb at mythtech.net Sat Dec 6 11:15:38 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme (was: FAT file system...) Message-ID: >Hey, whatever happened to all of those >good B movie like that which were on cable TV at night (before cable >TV became boring)? Years ago, I used to stay up late and hack code >while watching them. "USA Up All Night" was a great program to catch these. And of course Rhonda Sheere(sp?) in her best B-Movie Busty Blond attitude made it all the better. -chris From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 6 11:24:12 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 15:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn > > > > computer on the other side of the HD controller. > > > > > > BLETCH!!! one reason I work with classic computers is to get away from > > > this rediculous modern notion that the way to solve a problem is to throw > > > CPU power at it without even thinking if there's an elegant solution... > > > > Eh. It's unaesthetic, but computrons cost nothing. I agree with you, cpu > > Hmmm.... I'd rather keep fast processors for the jobs that actually need > them. There's also the issue that everything I design is documented, and > PCs aren't.... > > > > Err, the interface is the tricky part (I've got some sketched-out > > > schematics of ideas I've had -- getting the darn thing to work at 50-80 > > > MHz and use easy-to-get components is the hard part...). > > Thinking about it some more.... > > A hard disk rotates at 60rps (3600 rpm) (or at least the one I was > working on the other day had 60 index pulses per second). Suppose we > sample the data line at 60MHz (12 times the original data rate, this > should be about right), then we need about 1Mbit of data to store one > original track. But there are more efficient ways to store the data, imagine a large counter (20 bits or so - our reference counter) That starts at 0 at Index time running at your 60 MHz or so. If we just store the 4 LSBs of this counter in a RAM on every input transistion, we can now play back the data from that RAM with our 60 MHz timing resolution. We play the data back by comparing the 4 LSBs from our RAM buffer with the 4 LSBs from our reference counter, If they match we output a transistion, and increment our RAM buffer pointer. The average data rate of our (4 bit wide) RAM with is now no faster than the original transistion rate from the drive) This puts an upper limit on the time between transitions but thats probably ok for most (FM,MFM,RLL,GCR) encoding schemes. another way of recording the "delta" times between transtions is a small counter that is reset on every transistion. Then the saved data would just be the delta times. This data is very easily compressable as (for FM) its consists of a stream of alternate numbers something like 9 10 5 9 5 10 4 9 10. This data can be easily stored with only a little more data than the original track capacity... All of this could be done in a $15 FPGA an a $15 sync SRAM... > > Or 128K bytes. We need to arrange some kind of shift register to turn the > bit serial data into 8 bit bytes and back again. To avoid timing problems > (and to allow the use of somewhat slower RAM), it's probably best to have > 2 8-bot SRs and 16 bit wide RAM (with separate write enable lines for the > 2 bytes). One SR is transferring data to/from the disk controlller while > the other one is transfering to/from RAM, etc. > > Now, IIRC, the last ST506 drives had 16 heads. So that's 16*128K = > 2Mbytes of data for one cylinder (and we need enough SRAM to buffer all > that, since we need to be able to switch heads fast (there's no 'seek > complete' line for head switching)). When the controller moves cylinders, > we need to possibly write that 2Mbytes to the modern hard disk (at least > those 128K 'tracks' that have been updated), and then re-load it with the > data corresponding to the new cylinder. That's a possibility of 4Mbytes > of data transfer total, in the time taken to move to a new cylinder. > Dunnon how long that would take (in theory it doesn't matter, since there > is a 'seek complete' line on the interface), but I do wonder if even a > modern hard disk and the circuitry to transfer the data between it and > the RAM is going to be slower than moving the heads on the old, original, > drive. In other words, will performance suffer? I dont think thats a problem if the data is suitably compressed before saving to SRAM... > > Then there's the issue of writing out the last cylinder before > power-down. If there's no seek from said cylinder, then how will the > interfacee know it has time to write it? > > Oh well, just some random thoughts. > > -tony > Peter Wallace From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 6 10:48:34 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070678713.9232.266.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 14:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Construct an electrical interface of the simplest possible hardware to > > > get the job done (electrical interface, buss termination as required, > > > etc) and do the whole job in C or even Perl. > > > > I agree, with the only caveat being that the computer required doesn't > > have to be something costing a large amount of money. > > As you point out, it can be a case-of-beer's-worth of computer, for many > simulated devices. > > > The only coding effort is to talk to the custom homebrew interface that > > handles ST506 or whatever flavour of drive you're needing to emulate. > > I take it ST506 has analog data for a controller-side separator; this > makes it harder, but as others point out, it could be 'tricked' or > probably simulated with an 8-bit flash converter, and/or use Duell's > idea for an analog sector recorder! The ST506 interface has _NO_ analog signals only digital... The only interesting information is the time between transitions... > > Disk size being what it is today, you could probably record each > "sector" as AtoD'd analog data in a userland program. Much simpler, just record a bit atream... > > (My LGP-21's rotating memory probably contains interesting data, so I'm > probably going to copy the tracks (32 physical) to disk with an opamp on > the head windings driving a sound card, and post-process the NRZ data > later. I'll likely take multiple copies of each track for safety.) > > > The hardware interface is the problem; in the case of ST506 it sounds > > non-trivial and that's even assuming that once built the data stream > > could be decoded and generated by the software (as I get the impression > > that said data stream can change widely depending on what controller was > > used to format the hard drive that you're emulating) > We dont need to decode that data stream, only record it and play it back... > > I'm guessing that for slow interfaces, SASI or maybe ST506, you could > make a semi-generic hardware interface that had a dozen latched output > bits, some input bits, an 8-bit DAC and ADC, and with only enough > hardware drivers to talk to it, do the rest of the simulator in > software. No A-D needed... > > DMA-speed interfaces like SMD would require hardware buffering, and > delays could generate timing issues in the controller. But I bet a lot > of machines could use a slow interface. > > Peter Wallace From freddyboomboom at comcast.net Sat Dec 6 10:15:39 2003 From: freddyboomboom at comcast.net (Andrew Prince) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Dayna Etherprint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070727339.2064.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Erik: I'm not Jim, and you sent this to a mailing list. Did you try Google? I found quite a few links about the Dayna Etherprint... Also, you might want to try the Three Macs and a Printer website, specifically http://www.atpm.com/network/printing/index.html Aslo, if you gave out some details about your home network, and what your problem is, we might be better able to answer your questions. On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 00:08, Erik Vollbrecht wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Are you the Jim Arnott that posted knowledge on how to use Dayna > Etherprint box? I found the thread in a mail list. If so, would you > be willing to try and help me out with trying to set one up for my > home network? > > Thanks, > > Erik From spedraja at ono.com Sat Dec 6 09:21:33 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) Message-ID: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> > It is on my list of things to look for. > BBN 1822 describes the host to IMP protocol > > I'm hoping there is a copy in the SRI archives at the Computer > History Museum. Good luck. I only located something remotely similar to one copy, but in one unreadable format, in: ftp.univ-angers.fr/pub2/rfc/rfc/std/std39.txt.gz This file is 3.3k long, instead of the 187 bytes of the official STD39.txt The rest of documents involved in the creation of ARPANET are availables in more or less form in diverse websites. I made one recollection of links if someone is interested. My interest in all these items is diverse. Like a History Student with the focus put in Contemporary History. Same about an important lack of Classic Computing information in our country (Spain) even in Public, Private and Universitary libraries. And finally, with the intention to recreate a simulated Network of IMPs, beginning with the four first installed. It would be curious to see, for example, one PDP10 simulator running TOPS10, one Hercules simulator running OS360, and even one SDS simulator (software ?) with simulated IMPs attached. Don't you think so ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 6 09:33:51 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) In-Reply-To: <001101c3bb95$3f50ffa0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <001101c3bb95$3f50ffa0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <200312060733.51607.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I did a bit of a search, and unfortunately didn't find the exact BBN 1822 report - but I did find the following related papers, which should prove to be interesting historical documents. Since they are a couple of MBs long, I didn't attach them for sake of the list. However, if they sound interesting to you, email me privately and I'll send them to you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AN OVERVIEW OF THE NEW ROUTING ALGORITHM FOR THE ARPANET John M. McQuillan Ira Richer Eric C. Rosen Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. Cambridge, MA (Originally published in: Proc. Sixth Data Communications Symposium, November, 1979) -- The Revised ARPANET Routing Metric Atul Khanna John Zinky BBN Communications Corporation 150 CambridgePark Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 (1987) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lyle On Friday 05 December 2003 17:06, SP wrote: > Hello all. > > I am doing a hobbyist research about the origins of Arpanet, and for my > surprise the original Arpanet protocol (represented in the STD39 > document) was declared historic in 2001, retired from the STD > list and substituted for one reference to BBN to obtain the document. > I've contacted them and... they can't provide me the document, named > BBN Report 1822 inside the company. > > Can someone helps me, please ? I should agree too other providings > of Internet RFCs or STDs retired of the official list. > > Thanks and Greetings > > Sergio -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Dec 6 17:55:03 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Dec BA400 available on m.v.o References: <200312051825.NAA01961@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001501c3bc54$5e59bd00$1a02a8c0@starship1> Anybody who needs a BA400 case from a Vax 4000 I just posted on up for sale on marketplace.vintage.org Would be willing to work out a trade for a Dec Pro 350 or 380.... Curt From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Dec 6 04:35:43 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:42 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) In-Reply-To: "SP" "Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822)" (Dec 6, 2:06) References: <001101c3bb95$3f50ffa0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <10312061035.ZM10778@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 6, 2:06, SP wrote: > I am doing a hobbyist research about the origins of Arpanet, and for my > surprise the original Arpanet protocol (represented in the STD39 > document) was declared historic in 2001, retired from the STD > list and substituted for one reference to BBN to obtain the document. > I've contacted them and... they can't provide me the document, named > BBN Report 1822 inside the company. > > Can someone helps me, please ? I should agree too other providings > of Internet RFCs or STDs retired of the official list. You may have some trouble finding that, as it was one of the very few RFCs/STDs that wasn't ever online. You'd have to find a library that has an old copy, or find someone who has scanned a copy. Old RFCs aren't normally taken offline, so my "dump" of RFCs from around 1998 should be complete -- apart from ones that were never online in the first place, like RFC0007: 0007 Host-IMP interface. G. Deloche. May-01-1969. (Not online) (Status: UNKNOWN) which is a discussion about the software part for the interface This particular one *is* now online, with the following Editor's comment: [The original of RFC 7 was hand-written, and only partially illegible copies exist. RFC 7 was later typed int NLS by the Augmentation Research Center (ARC) at SRI. The following is the best reconstruction we could do. RFC Editor.] and the text is at http://asg.web.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc7.txt -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Dec 6 04:30:50 2003 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing References: <001b01c3b974$01bcef50$0200a8c0@Evelyn> Message-ID: <008001c3bbe4$066a8e50$1000a8c0@winxpsp1a2100> Hi, Brian. I retrieved the magazine and ran off photopies of these articles. I think it would be easier for me to snail-mail them to you rather than scan them -- my scanner is not set up and I'm not sure it will even work with the XP box I am using now. Could you send me your snail-mail address? Thanks for the most excellent party last Sunday. :) --Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Knittel" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:03 AM Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing > Hi, > Does anyone have the June 1977 issue of Byte Magazine > (vol 2 issue 6)? There are two articles in there that I'd like to get a scan > or copy of: "Interfacing the IBM Selectric Keyboard Printer" and > "A 6800 Selectric IO Printer Program". If anyone has this issue and can > scan or copy and mail the articles, I'd really appreciate it. Contact me on- > or off list. > > Thanks, > Brian From spedraja at ono.com Sat Dec 6 03:13:25 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) References: <200312060510.hB65Ar2v024924@spies.com> Message-ID: <009c01c3bbd9$348785a0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> > It is on my list of things to look for. > BBN 1822 describes the host to IMP protocol > > I'm hoping there is a copy in the SRI archives at the Computer > History Museum. Good luck. I only located something remotely similar to one copy, but in one unreadable format, in: ftp.univ-angers.fr/pub2/rfc/rfc/std/std39.txt.gz This file is 3.3k long, instead of the 187 bytes of the official STD39.txt The rest of documents involved in the creation of ARPANET are availables in more or less form in diverse websites. I made one recollection of links if someone is interested. My interest in all these items is diverse. Like a History Student with the focus put in Contemporary History. Same about an important lack of Classic Computing information in our country (Spain) even in Public, Private and Universitary libraries. And finally, with the intention to recreate a simulated Network of IMPs, beginning with the four first installed. It would be curious to see, for example, one PDP10 simulator running TOPS10, one Hercules simulator running OS360, and even one SDS simulator (software ?) with simulated IMPs attached. Don't you think so ? Thanks and Greetings Sergio From patrick at evocative.com Sat Dec 6 13:23:04 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme (was: FAT file system...) In-Reply-To: <20031206053001.GD81214@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: > activities would be great! Hey, whatever happened to all of those > good B movie like that which were on cable TV at night (before cable > TV became boring)? Years ago, I used to stay up late and hack code > while watching them. Ahhh... thanks for the memory. Some of my best hacking (*not* cracking, folks) was done while watching Bob Wilkins on Creature eatures... --Patrick :-) From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 6 15:12:37 2003 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: I have an AS/400 in my trunk... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312061612.38112.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Wednesday 03 December 2003 18:44, Ian Primus wrote: > the back end of > my car is sagging from the weight of an IBM AS/400 Model 9404. It's > very heavy, and I can't lift it alone, so it's going to have to stay > there until I can get a friend to help me lift it out and get it into > the house, but I have the panels, tape drive and battery backup unit > inside (I took them out to make it lighter and easier to load). > Anyway, anyone know anything about this beast? I've only done a little > googleing, which hasn't turned up any information on the hardware. I > need to find at least one drive carrier, and an operating system for > it. Does Linux run well (if at all) on the AS/400? Like I said, I > haven't done much research yet, I'm just trying to see if anyone has > had any experience with this thing. It's an interesting (and heavy) > piece of hardware. It will be fun to get running, provided I can find > the time. Linux runs on the newer RISC as/400, the 9404 is not one of them. I have a pair of 9404's I'm missing the keys, and didn't notice any batteries when I brought mine in the house for the winter. Mike -- Ottawa, Canada Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From kirill at lava.net Sat Dec 6 14:38:25 2003 From: kirill at lava.net (Kirill Levchenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Foam replacements In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4125@MAIL10> Message-ID: <23E410D4-282C-11D8-BBE4-000A9590162E@lava.net> IBM seemed to have a fondness for black foam in their equipment (typewriters to RS/6000 and PS/2 systems), which I suspect was used for noise dampening. Unfortunately, the foam comes off and leaves black grime along the airflow channels. It also deteriorates, so when confronted, it's a sticky, gooey mess that is hard to remove. It's not a pleasant task to get it off, but I am willing to do it. My concern is that the placement of the foam was also used for airflow regulation. With it gone, the system may overheat. Has anyone had any experience with this stuff? Kirill From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 12:46:08 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Witchy wrote: > PS I've just knocked an entire glass of red wine over my legs, testbed PC > (fortunately not running), 2 production machines (fronts only), floorboards, > stuff lying round waiting to be sold etc, components, docs and even my > powermac G3, which should be out of harms way. Suffice to say I'm not happy. Hint: don't put the wine glass between your hand and the mouse. This lesson took me three times to learn :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 12:47:51 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of der Mouse > > Sent: 05 December 2003 22:29 > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > > Also true - and don't forget that while you can maybe put together a > > MAME box running the game for $500, you need not only that but all the > > original human-interface devices (joystick etc), _and_ they need to be > > able to stand up under years of arcade-level punishment, including > > exasperated gorillas getting fed up with the game and shoving the > > joystick hard enough to shake the whole box. > > Hahahaha! You can buy new PCs for less than $500! > > http://www.ultimarc.com/ > > and in particular: > > http://www.ultimarc.com/orderp.html > > These people do arcade quality sticks and buttons. Build the cab yourself. A > half decent MAME box can be done for less than ukp100 ($62.50) for classic > games. Ferchrissakes, at computer fairs here in England you can buy Pentium > 3 class machines for ukp80 ($50). If an exasperated gorilla breaks your > joystick replace it for ~ukp11 ($7) > > Where's the expense? Witchy, I understand where you're coming from but the expense comes from the knowledge, skill and craftmanship of being able to design your own cabinet. Most people don't have 3, 2 or even 1 of these, so plunking down $3K is a bargain. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 12:43:25 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > > Who's the asshole that decided an UPDATE command in SQL without a WHERE > > clause defaults to ALL? > > > > Ouch. Same for DELETE by the way. I know, which made it easy to zap the table so I could reload it :) I mean, I knew that this is the behavior of the UPDATE and DELETE commands, but when you're not paying attention you can easily hork up your database. TOO easily! It's just stupid! > This may be a good opportunity to pick up the thread about MySQL and other > databases. :-) > > One of the things that mission-critical-appropriate databases provide, IMHO, > is a running transaction log or similar mechanism that facilitates not only > transaction management and rollback, but also backup and recovery up to a > point in time. I'm pretty sure MySQL doesn't offer this. Does anyone know > if PostgreSQL does? How about just modifying the command to require an ALL clause to delete or update all, rather than that being the default behavior? You'd think this would be the case. WHO is the jackass that designed this? Fortunately, MySQL tables are easy to backup. Just copy the files in the data directory. It would be nice to have rollback features though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 12:49:36 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <1070663974.31033.54.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 5 Dec 2003, Jules Richardson wrote: > Last time I had a serious look at this (and had a homebrew cocktail > cabinet machine up and running with a 15" screen) there were ROMs and > plans aplenty out on the 'net for download. One problem I found was that > I could find nowhere in the UK to supply the 'proper' big round > pushbutton controls as used on the old arcade machines - all the ones > sold here were too small. Did you also look for elevator buttons? Same size/style. Perhaps you can hit up an elevator manufacturer? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 13:53:10 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: OT: RE: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, JP Hindin wrote: > Of course, I'm biased. But until you try it, you never appreciate it. > Perhaps the same could be said for my not trying Oracle... but you know, > that lacking multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars for licences :) I believe you can now download a copy free for development purposes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kth at srv.net Sat Dec 6 12:49:05 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: <200312052334.hB5NYew7017007@spies.com> References: <200312052334.hB5NYew7017007@spies.com> Message-ID: <3FD224A1.9090807@srv.net> Al Kossow wrote: >>Any ideas how to convert a tape cut on an HP2000 into the .tap format >>used by the SIMH hp2000 simulator? >> >> > >Eric Smith has a program called tapecopy that will do this under Linux > >.tap is >with a single byte of 0 for a tape mark. > > > I think it is more than one zero byte. I believe you need a full 32 bit wide zero (4 bytes) for the simh tap format. >To create a .tap file from a real tape you: > >read a tape record > >if it is a tape mark, put out a byte of zero > >else > >write the record length >write the data >write the record length > > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 6 13:36:18 2003 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: DF32D Message-ID: <1070739378.2184.94.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Does anyone have (scans are OK) of the maintenance docs for the DF32D. This is the posibus version of the DF32. On the same note, does anyone have the drive portion of a DF32 that they'd be willing to let go (or an entire DF/DS 32)? My DF32D is sans drive. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 13:54:45 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme (was: FAT file system...) In-Reply-To: <20031206053001.GD81214@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 6 Dec 2003, R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe Vintage Computer Festival, from writings of Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 09:18:20PM -0800: > > I do miss the ads showing computers in the middle of wilderness scenes, > > sometimes accompanied by some sexy (or not) vixen in a mini-skirt and > > thigh-high boots (or sometimes with nothing at all). > > Well then, why not use pictures like that to advertise the VCF? HMM!! That is a damn good idea! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 13:54:27 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > Now, IIRC, the last ST506 drives had 16 heads. So that's 16*128K = > 2Mbytes of data for one cylinder (and we need enough SRAM to buffer all > that, since we need to be able to switch heads fast (there's no 'seek Are you assuming that the host is able to read that much data in the span of one disc revolution? Something tells me that it would require multiple passes for an old 286/12 to read an entire 2MB track from a hard disc, not to mention the other limitations of bus speed, interface width, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Dec 6 13:44:56 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > My suggestion (worth every cent you paid for it) is to use a whole damn > > computer on the other side of the HD controller. > > BLETCH!!! one reason I work with classic computers is to get away from > this rediculous modern notion that the way to solve a problem is to throw > CPU power at it without even thinking if there's an elegant solution... I don't see it that way at all. As Jules alluded to, it's an excellent re-use of old hardware that's not collectible anyway. Why invent the wheel each time you want to do a project? If you're going to mass produce a bunch of ST-506 emulation interfaces then a custom designed board is certainly the way to go. But if you want to design a project that can be built by nearly anyone with minimal electronic skills and old PCs laying around (just about everyone here) then using old PC hardware is a perfect solution. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rdd at rddavis.org Sat Dec 6 20:31:12 2003 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme (was: FAT file system...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031207022649.GF84940@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe chris, from writings of Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 12:15:38PM -0500: > "USA Up All Night" was a great program to catch these. And of course > Rhonda Sheere(sp?) in her best B-Movie Busty Blond attitude made it all > the better. Yep... I remember. :-) Rhonda She(e/a?)r on Friday nights and Gilbert Godfried on Saturday nights (or did I get that backwards), hosting lots of great movies! Of course, before that, things were good too, with that excellent Night Flight show on USA with all sorts of cool and weird music videos, movies and strange video clips (where else would one find videos by Doug and the Slugs , of "Makin' it Work" fame, etc.?)... then, the local independent stations would show some old black & white horror flicks (e.g. with Boris Karloff, etc.) late at night, etc. Of course, some stations were also showing the Benny Hill show, and MTV was showing lots of great rock videos (not that rap crap and the new post-1980's rock star wannabees who never bothered to learn about music before they began assaulting listeners' ears with their noise) with not only plenty of video vixens, but good music and truly creative videos that were obviously the work of true artists. -- Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 6 20:36:34 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp server issue Message-ID: <000701c3bc6a$ee423ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sometime around 3am this morning, the classiccmp server tossed cookies. Not sure exactly what happend, I tried powering it off and back on remotely - no joy. So, this afternoon (sorry, but I was busy gutting (refurbing) another HP 7906 drive and for once I decided my collection comes first!). I went down to the datacenter and hooked up a console. Got this wonderful message: "HDD S.M.A.R.T. monitoring has determined that a hard drive failure is imminent. Back up your data immediately. Press F1 to continue" *sigh* So I hit F1, made sure it came back up. All disks were present and accounted for. Tonight I'm sending copies of the filesystems over to a different server... just in case. Not sure how much I trust S.M.A.R.T., so I may let it ride for a while and just keep a closer eye on it. We'll see. On the bright side, my 2nd 7906 is now mechanically sound, servo/positioning tested ok too. On to the diags tomorrow for some read/write tests. What *IS* it with me and hard drives these days anyways? If it's not vintage ones, it's modern ones! Also I thought I'd try throwing this hook out - Does anyone have any 7906 drives that they are sure are junk and not worth keeping? If so, I would like to scavenge them for a spare set of cards from the card cage, the PMR board, and all the heads - especially the servo head. But only if it's pretty certain the drive isn't worth keeping and refurbing. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 6 20:46:28 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Need help with 2 projects. (TI and Xerox) References: <120620030605.18132.3220@att.net> Message-ID: <003701c3bc6c$51077940$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> G-wright wrote.... > I am looking for repair manuals for a TI 990/12 Business > system. I recently (about a month or two ago) obtained a TI990/12 as well, my first TI box. I got truckloads of manuals but have not gone through them yet. I suspect there are no service manuals, but I will look. I know for sure there is a fresh OS install disk in there at least. > The second machine is a Xerox Star. I have the software > and operating manuals. Can't help you there. Jay West From patrick at evocative.com Sat Dec 6 20:48:39 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme (was: FAT file system...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > folks) was done while watching Bob Wilkins on Creature > eatures... --Patrick :-) ^^^ ??? That's weird... I just checked the message in my "Sent Items" folder, and the "F" is there. Bzzz???? --P From rcini at optonline.net Sat Dec 6 20:59:36 2003 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c3bc6e$26bb7630$1601a8c0@bbrdhveies50vd> I don't recall this being mentioned before, but I've found that Happ Controls (http://www.happcontrols.com) has everything you need to build a proper MAME setup. The buttons are reasonably priced. The trackball will give you a bit of heartburn. The spinner is a must-have. Don't buy a coin door from Happ. You can get them on eBay for about $30 + shipping. If you go to my main Web page, below, and follow the link to the MAME project, you can see how I did it. Right now, I only have the control panel done, but this winter I hope to build the cabinet, modelled after the Defender cabinet. There are several good upright plans out there, but look for Lusid's Defender-style plans. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... On 5 Dec 2003, Jules Richardson wrote: > Last time I had a serious look at this (and had a homebrew cocktail > cabinet machine up and running with a 15" screen) there were ROMs and > plans aplenty out on the 'net for download. One problem I found was that > I could find nowhere in the UK to supply the 'proper' big round > pushbutton controls as used on the old arcade machines - all the ones > sold here were too small. Did you also look for elevator buttons? Same size/style. Perhaps you can hit up an elevator manufacturer? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Sat Dec 6 10:40:52 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: <200312052334.hB5NYew7017007@spies.com> Message-ID: How can I get this to run under hpux (the system that has my 9-track tape drive)? I am getting compile errors when I run 'make'...it wants to find things like tapeio.d and someother .d files (and there are .c files and 1 .h file but no .d files). thanks! -Bob On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Any ideas how to convert a tape cut on an HP2000 into the .tap format > > used by the SIMH hp2000 simulator? > > Eric Smith has a program called tapecopy that will do this under Linux > > .tap is > with a single byte of 0 for a tape mark. > > To create a .tap file from a real tape you: > > read a tape record > > if it is a tape mark, put out a byte of zero > > else > > write the record length > write the data > write the record length > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 6 20:59:34 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Fw: classiccmp server issue Message-ID: <006101c3bc6e$25225fa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: classiccmp server issue > Sometime around 3am this morning, the classiccmp server tossed cookies. Not > sure exactly what happend, I tried powering it off and back on remotely - no > joy. So, this afternoon (sorry, but I was busy gutting (refurbing) another > HP 7906 drive and for once I decided my collection comes first!). I went > down to the datacenter and hooked up a console. Got this wonderful message: > > "HDD S.M.A.R.T. monitoring has determined that a hard drive failure is > imminent. Back up your data immediately. Press F1 to continue" > > *sigh* > > So I hit F1, made sure it came back up. All disks were present and accounted > for. Tonight I'm sending copies of the filesystems over to a different > server... just in case. Not sure how much I trust S.M.A.R.T., so I may let > it ride for a while and just keep a closer eye on it. We'll see. > > On the bright side, my 2nd 7906 is now mechanically sound, servo/positioning > tested ok too. On to the diags tomorrow for some read/write tests. What *IS* > it with me and hard drives these days anyways? If it's not vintage ones, > it's modern ones! > > Also I thought I'd try throwing this hook out - Does anyone have any 7906 > drives that they are sure are junk and not worth keeping? If so, I would > like to scavenge them for a spare set of cards from the card cage, the PMR > board, and all the heads - especially the servo head. But only if it's > pretty certain the drive isn't worth keeping and refurbing. > > Regards, > > Jay West > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 6 21:11:38 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V (been there done that) References: Message-ID: <009b01c3bc6f$d445c5c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Some time ago I found a replacement for the motor run caps for a TU-56. They are definitely motor run caps that you need. The replacements are slightly offsize and require a different mounting bracket. These caps are $140 each as I recall, perhaps $70 - because I can't remember if the price I got was for one or two. I am however, quite sure they are the correct replacement for the motor run caps in the TU-56. If you haven't found the replacements, let me know and I'll dig up the info - supplier, cost, etc. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: Re: 100MFD 55V > > > I beleive these are non-polarised electrolytics.... > > > > Certainly are. Sanyo TV's have a couple that frequently fail and need > > replacement. > > You *can* cobble one up by joining two conventional electros of the same > > value cathode to cathode which makes a single non polarised electro with > > half the value of the sum of the two. (Caps in series) > > Sure. I believe that's how some (all?) non-polarised electrolytic > capacitors are made. But you want the 2 halves to be closely matched -- > possible if you're making them together (i.e. you're the manufacturer > making a non-polarised electrolytic), but not so likely if you're just > connecting 2 caps in series. That's probably why the homebrew version has > a short life. > > -tony > > > From vrs at msn.com Sat Dec 6 21:48:22 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: 100MFD 55V (been there done that) References: <009b01c3bc6f$d445c5c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > Some time ago I found a replacement for the motor run caps for a TU-56. They > are definitely motor run caps that you need. The replacements are slightly > offsize and require a different mounting bracket. > > These caps are $140 each as I recall, perhaps $70 - because I can't remember > if the price I got was for one or two. I am however, quite sure they are the > correct replacement for the motor run caps in the TU-56. Yikes! No wonder people wire electrolytics back-to-back :-)! I was hoping to go shopping for a new set of these on Monday. Maybe I'll be buying less than all four :-). Vince From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Dec 6 14:06:57 2003 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Dayna Etherprint In-Reply-To: <1070727339.2064.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: I am! First... Get a router that'll pass AT packets. My D-Link DI-704 works fine and they're cheap. $25 delivered on that auction site. Second... My network is as follows: Beige G3DT running X.2.6 > Cat 5 > DI-704 > Cat 5 > a silly little 4 port hub >Cat 5 > Etherprint Bridge > Localtalk dongle > four wire phone cord > Localtalk dongle > QMS PS1700 Laserprinter (Seen as HP LJ 4Si) Why the hub? Who knows. It just wouldn't work without it and it gives me another place to plug in. X-over cable and no hub didn't work. Gives me more blinken lights. ;o) Software? None. Go to print center and add printer from the Appletalk network. Let it find the printer and add it. Oh yeah... I have had NO success networking Epson printers to anything from an SE30 to an iMac. Epsons are intended to be 'personal' printers. Their sharing software is, by far, the worst stuff I've ever seen. Your trying to go from parallel to USB to who knows what to Appletalk to Ethernet over a wireless router that doesn't do Appletalk packets is a non-starter. I'll be really surprised if you make it work. Get a real printer. Even an old HP Deskwriter is a better choice. (IMHO) Jim On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 08:15 AM, Andrew Prince wrote: > Hi Erik: > > I'm not Jim, and you sent this to a mailing list. > > Did you try Google? I found quite a few links about the Dayna > Etherprint... > > Also, you might want to try the Three Macs and a Printer website, > specifically http://www.atpm.com/network/printing/index.html > > Aslo, if you gave out some details about your home network, and what > your problem is, we might be better able to answer your questions. > > On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 00:08, Erik Vollbrecht wrote: >> Hi Jim, >> >> Are you the Jim Arnott that posted knowledge on how to use Dayna >> Etherprint box? I found the thread in a mail list. If so, would you >> be willing to try and help me out with trying to set one up for my >> home network? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Erik > From rhudson at cnonline.net Sat Dec 6 22:51:48 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp server issue In-Reply-To: <000701c3bc6a$ee423ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1078D686-2871-11D8-A272-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Saturday, December 6, 2003, at 08:36 PM, Jay West wrote: > Not sure how much I trust S.M.A.R.T., so I may let > it ride for a while and just keep a closer eye on it. > Jay West > Dave, HAL says the AE935 unit is about to fail again.... :^) From vrs at msn.com Sat Dec 6 23:24:33 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: DF32D References: <1070739378.2184.94.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone have (scans are OK) of the maintenance docs for the DF32D. > This is the posibus version of the DF32. Not the maintenance docs, but this is relevant: http://www.pdp8.net/bklatt/TechTips.html. There is lots of stuff about fixes for DF32D problems. It is also a tremendous resource for other pdp-8 hardware, as well. I assume you found the DF32 (not D) maintenance docs (also on pdp8.net). Vince From spedraja at ono.com Sun Dec 7 02:23:42 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing References: <001b01c3b974$01bcef50$0200a8c0@Evelyn> <008001c3bbe4$066a8e50$1000a8c0@winxpsp1a2100> Message-ID: <01a001c3bc9b$6cc4dea0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> It would be great to allow other to access this information. I have the opportunity to obtain one Selectric and I should like to interface it too. Cheers Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing > Hi, Brian. I retrieved the magazine and ran off photopies of > these articles. I think it would be easier for me to snail-mail > them to you rather than scan them -- my scanner is not set up > and I'm not sure it will even work with the XP box I am using > now. Could you send me your snail-mail address? > > Thanks for the most excellent party last Sunday. :) > > --Bill > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Knittel" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:03 AM > Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing > > > > Hi, > > Does anyone have the June 1977 issue of Byte Magazine > > (vol 2 issue 6)? There are two articles in there that I'd like to get a > scan > > or copy of: "Interfacing the IBM Selectric Keyboard Printer" and > > "A 6800 Selectric IO Printer Program". If anyone has this issue and can > > scan or copy and mail the articles, I'd really appreciate it. Contact me > on- > > or off list. > > > > Thanks, > > Brian > From spedraja at ono.com Sun Dec 7 02:37:58 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) References: <001101c3bb95$3f50ffa0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> <10312061035.ZM10778@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <01a601c3bc9d$6b40c4c0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> > You may have some trouble finding that, as it was one of the very few > RFCs/STDs that wasn't ever online. You'd have to find a library that > has an old copy, or find someone who has scanned a copy. By now I've located the chapter Three of the report. > 0007 Host-IMP interface. G. Deloche. May-01-1969. (Not online) > (Status: UNKNOWN) > and the text is at http://asg.web.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc7.txt Mmmm... I can't access it by now. I shall try later. Cheers Sergio From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 7 03:57:16 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp server issue In-Reply-To: <000701c3bc6a$ee423ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000701c3bc6a$ee423ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031207015656.068e9640@mail.zipcon.net> At 06:36 PM 12/6/03, you wrote: >-snip- >. Got this wonderful message: > >"HDD S.M.A.R.T. monitoring has determined that a hard drive failure is >imminent. Back up your data immediately. Press F1 to continue" what brand of hard drive? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 05:16:31 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: Bob Brown "Re: HP2000 Tape Conversion" (Dec 6, 10:40) References: Message-ID: <10312071116.ZM12296@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 6, 10:40, Bob Brown wrote: > How can I get this to run under hpux (the system that has my 9-track tape > drive)? I am getting compile errors when I run 'make'...it wants to find > things like tapeio.d and someother .d files (and there are .c files and 1 > .h file but no .d files). If you want to use the Makefile you need gmake (GNU make) not an ordinary make, and gcc, because the rule that creates the .d files from .c files uses gcc-specific switches. I didn't bother. I compiled Eric's utilities on an SGI running IRIX, with the IRIX C compiler, like this: cc -O -fullwarn -o tsbextract tsbextract.c tapeio.c cc -O -fullwarn -o tsbdecode tsbdecode.c tapeio.c ("-fullwarn" is the IRIX cc equivalent of gcc's "-Wall"). If you want to use tsbdecode (to list BASIC programs), ask Eric if you can have the updated version (tsbdecode is a work-in-progress, and I recently sent him an update which takes it a bit further towards its goal). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 05:35:23 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Dayna Etherprint In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Re: Dayna Etherprint" (Dec 6, 17:22) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031206165747.032c3ec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <10312071135.ZM12321@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 6, 17:22, Mike Ford wrote: > At 02:08 AM 12/6/03 -0600, Erik Vollbrecht wrote: > >Hi Jim, > > > >Are you the Jim Arnott that posted knowledge on how to use Dayna > >Etherprint box? I found the thread in a mail list. If so, would you be > >willing to try and help me out with trying to set one up for my home network? > > > Etherprint should just work, only catch I have run across is that many > switches don't pass ethertalk packets, and thats what Appletalk uses over > ethernet, not standard TCP/IP. Hubs work fine, but only some switches. Any normal Layer-2 switch should pass Ethertalk packets. Some Layer-3 switches can do protocol filtering, and might not (or might be configured that way) but any self-respecting ordinary Layer-2 switch shouldn't care whether the next protocol up is Appletalk, DECNET, IPX, IP, ARP, ... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 05:26:24 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) In-Reply-To: "SP" "Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822)" (Dec 6, 16:21) References: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <10312071126.ZM12316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 6, 16:21, SP wrote: > > It is on my list of things to look for. > > BBN 1822 describes the host to IMP protocol > > > > I'm hoping there is a copy in the SRI archives at the Computer > > History Museum. > > Good luck. I only located something remotely similar to one copy, > but in one unreadable format, in: > > ftp.univ-angers.fr/pub2/rfc/rfc/std/std39.txt.gz > > This file is 3.3k long, instead of the 187 bytes of the official STD39.txt What's unreadable about it? It's an ordinary text file, compressed with gzip. However, it's not STD39 at all. It's not even related to it; it's RFC903, which is about RARP (Reverse Address Resolution Protocol). It looks like the people who run that FTP site have not only not updated it in ten years, they've accidentally copied their STD38 file as STD39. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vrs at msn.com Sun Dec 7 05:53:58 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) References: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> <10312071126.ZM12316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > Good luck. I only located something remotely similar to one copy, > > but in one unreadable format, in: > > > > ftp.univ-angers.fr/pub2/rfc/rfc/std/std39.txt.gz > > > > This file is 3.3k long, instead of the 187 bytes of the official > STD39.txt > > What's unreadable about it? It's an ordinary text file, compressed > with gzip. However, it's not STD39 at all. It's not even related to > it; it's RFC903, which is about RARP (Reverse Address Resolution > Protocol). It looks like the people who run that FTP site have not > only not updated it in ten years, they've accidentally copied their > STD38 file as STD39. FWIW, I also got unreadable cruft when I used WinZip to extract std39.txt. Vince From Chapmangregw at aol.com Sun Dec 7 04:07:14 2003 From: Chapmangregw at aol.com (Chapmangregw@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: HP2000 goodies tape conversion Message-ID: <12b.36d360e6.2d0455d2@aol.com> Hi, I have a backup and a hib tape for the HP2100A. I live in eastern Iowa, USA. (Iowa City to be very exact). Does anyone in reasonable driving distance have a reel tape drive that can read these old proprietary(?) tapes? (I'll start reasonable and then expand my begging circle :). (oh, and please do not hold aol against me, it is due to finances). Thankyou for your attention, Greg From r.mueller at fz-juelich.de Sat Dec 6 06:17:19 2003 From: r.mueller at fz-juelich.de (R. Mueller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031206130420.029658f0@iffpcsrv.iff.kfa-juelich.de> Does anybody else have trouble with routinely receiving a virus in place of the proper collection of messages which constitute an issue from this group? What I often receive looks like ------------------ Virus Warning Message (IIIIIIIIIIIIII) Security warning Exceed_Decompression_Layer in file email-body The file email-body is moved to /etc/iscan/virus/virNUv9Rs. Information from IIIIIIIII Mail-Server: Scanner detected a virus (Exceed_Decompression_Layer) in an attachment (email-body) of this message. The attachment was removed from the message. No further action is required on your part. If you have questions, please contact postmast@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ Virus Warning Message (IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII) email-body is removed from here because it contains a virus. I have removed the name of our mail processor and substituted several letters= "I". These viruses come numbered in the correct sequence, as if they were issued by the normal server which distributes the proper message collections. By the time the messages reach me any real content has been removed. Several of these arrive per week. One question I must face is whether our firewall is discovering non-existent viruses, and request a repair, but if the viruses are real, then the server for this group needs cleaning. It is possible there is somebody out there at a third point doing this, but how does this explain having the messages in the correct sequence and delivered to me while eliminating the correct message? (It never shows up, and how would this "Third Party Server" be trapping the proper messages in order to substitute a virus loaded message? If I were receiving one proper message and also the contaminated version it would be easier to explain.) Any advice would be appreciated. Bob From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 7 07:25:52 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp server issue References: <000701c3bc6a$ee423ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.0.0.22.2.20031207015656.068e9640@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <003e01c3bcc5$a2f23f70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Boot drive is seagate ST320413A (20gb) Data drive is Western Digital WD1600JB-00DUA1 (160gb) I didn't notice which one SMART was complaining about, but I know the seagate is pretty old. The WD is very new. Jay West > what brand of hard drive? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 7 07:43:10 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070804022.6725.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 18:17, Witchy wrote: > > Of course, the main problem with building yer own MAME cab for sale will be > licensing the ROMs. I wouldn't be surprised if the Digital Tables people I > mentioned rely on the buyer putting their own MAME stuff on so's to avoid > getting hit by the license brick. That's why I gave up on it as a commercial enterprise - this seemed to be the way things were going after a lot of the big gaming outfits had a crack-down on copyrighted ROMs being available on the 'net. Very few home users would want to spend 3k on a system, and no arcades (who might have the money and be interested) would want to risk the copyright/legal issues. For the home user with the necessary skills (rudimentary electronics, woodworking, graphic design, some software etc.) it's still a viable project though, space permitting - if your conscience can live with the copyright issues... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 7 07:45:11 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp server issue In-Reply-To: <003e01c3bcc5$a2f23f70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000701c3bc6a$ee423ee0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.0.0.22.2.20031207015656.068e9640@mail.zipcon.net> <003e01c3bcc5$a2f23f70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1070804145.6725.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 13:25, Jay West wrote: > Boot drive is seagate ST320413A (20gb) > > I didn't notice which one SMART was complaining about, but I know the > seagate is pretty old. A 20GB drive is "pretty old"? :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 7 08:20:27 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070806261.6724.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Forgive me as I'm half asleep today (the top half I think, unfortunately containing my brain...) A few points on this... a) I'm only personally interested in ST506 type drives as that's all I have; others will be worrying about other technologies. Is there a case where the data stream coming off the drive on a read (or going to the drive on a write) might be something other "r/w a single sector"? I'm just wondering about this sampling idea - it sounds plausible if the only commands available are to read or write a single sector (plus the usual seek etc.) but are other commands available where the data stream to/from the drive might be different if say, multiple sectors can be read/written in one command? At that point the sampling idea falls on its ass if bolting together several emulated sectors doesn't give the same data as it would for a real drive. b) In the case of ST506, I'm taking it that the controller always provides the clock signal for reads and writes - otherwise, presumably, there'd be no need for this oversampling of the raw bit stream idea. It could be just sampled at the speed of the drive. c) Something that works "with most ST506 drives" is, IMHO, not good enough. If a drive works with the ST506 controller with which it was formatted, it should work with the emulator. Finding that it doesn't work emulating XYZ's drive 6 months down the line because said drive is within spec but our emulator doesn't quite like the drive spec doesn't seem good enough. I don't know about other classic drive technologies (all my old systems are ST506 or SCSI), so somebody can argue that case seperately :-) d) Tony's point about being able to understand all of the system duly noted - only problem I see there there being the various combinations of hardware options that would likely be useful to people. People would find emulation of drives other than ST506 types useful I'm sure. Then on the 'modern' side of the interface, there are various options - IDE, SCSI, Ethernet, Token Ring and who knows what else. Ultimately at least, it seems like using off the shelf components and software to drive the modern side of things - and provide flexibility of operation - will outweigh the desire to know intimately the entire system. I hate board replacement too; I hate relying on somebody else's code - but in this case it does make sense to me. I'm not going to lose any sleep over scavenging a dead PC-class motherboard for useful parts when it fails and replacing it with another free, commodity unit. Said boards are going to be around for beer money for years to come - at which point keeping running the other parts of the systems we're trying to preserve may well become impossible anyway. Thoroughly document the interface hardware (and any software) though of course - if the classic hardware (and us) are all still around in 2020 then it would not be a hard exercise to make said interface work with whatever hardware is then considered modern. cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Dec 7 09:05:41 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD341C5.6030904@atarimuseum.com> Patrick, I know what you mean, I'd start off the evening working on my BBS code with some Star Trek the original series on Wpix at 11pm, some twighlight zone, then Creature.... Fright Night, ah, usually you could find some Dr. Who on an off-station and maybe if you were really lucky a re-run of Computer Chronicals or C|Net Computer News or similar, sometimes a Discover Science special on PBS.... Now with my Satellite I can't find nearly that much "get you through the night" TV shows.... Curt Patrick Rigney wrote: >>activities would be great! Hey, whatever happened to all of those >>good B movie like that which were on cable TV at night (before cable >>TV became boring)? Years ago, I used to stay up late and hack code >>while watching them. >> >> > >Ahhh... thanks for the memory. Some of my best hacking (*not* cracking, >folks) was done while watching Bob Wilkins on Creature >eatures... --Patrick :-) > > > > From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Dec 7 10:00:57 2003 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Necessary rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031207160057.GA8268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 10:43:25AM -0800, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > > > > > Who's the asshole that decided an UPDATE command in SQL without a WHERE > > > clause defaults to ALL? > > > > > > > Ouch. Same for DELETE by the way. > > I know, which made it easy to zap the table so I could reload it :) > > I mean, I knew that this is the behavior of the UPDATE and DELETE > commands, but when you're not paying attention you can easily hork up your > database. TOO easily! It's just stupid! The old problem with powerful tools: you can get all kinds of stuff done, but if you are not careful, bad things are going to happen. Yes, once upon time this one came to bite me in the ass. When one directly messes with UPDATE on the grant tables (because the wannabe database in questions didn't support doing it the right way, and no, it also didn't support transactions) to change a users DB password, forgeting the WHERE clause is a good way to get lots of attention from coworkers ;-) > > This may be a good opportunity to pick up the thread about MySQL and other > > databases. :-) > > > > One of the things that mission-critical-appropriate databases provide, IMHO, > > is a running transaction log or similar mechanism that facilitates not only > > transaction management and rollback, but also backup and recovery up to a > > point in time. I'm pretty sure MySQL doesn't offer this. Does anyone know > > if PostgreSQL does? > > How about just modifying the command to require an ALL clause to delete or > update all, rather than that being the default behavior? You'd think this > would be the case. WHO is the jackass that designed this? The guys designing the SQL92/99 standards? > Fortunately, MySQL tables are easy to backup. Just copy the files in the > data directory. It would be nice to have rollback features though. Simple: wrap your critical operations in a transaction. Start the transaction, do your changes, check them. If everything is ok, commit else rollback. Ok, with MySQL you might have to use a special table type to get support for transactions, but thats just one of the warts one has to accept for not using a real RDBMS ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From vcf at siconic.com Sun Dec 7 10:19:33 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) In-Reply-To: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, SP wrote: > And finally, with the intention to recreate a simulated Network of IMPs, > beginning with the four first installed. It would be curious to see, for > example, one PDP10 simulator running TOPS10, one Hercules simulator > running OS360, and even one SDS simulator (software ?) with simulated > IMPs attached. Don't you think so ? I think so! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 10:12:19 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) In-Reply-To: "vrs" "Re: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822)" (Dec 7, 3:53) References: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> <10312071126.ZM12316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10312071612.ZM12516@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 7, 3:53, vrs wrote: > FWIW, I also got unreadable cruft when I used WinZip to extract std39.txt. Then WinZip is broken :-) Or perhaps it only does zip, not gzip (which is not the same thing). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 10:27:35 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:43 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM?" (Dec 7, 14:11) References: <1070806261.6724.49.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10312071627.ZM12522@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 7, 14:11, Jules Richardson wrote: > Forgive me as I'm half asleep today (the top half I think, unfortunately > containing my brain...) > > A few points on this... > > a) I'm only personally interested in ST506 type drives as that's all I > have; others will be worrying about other technologies. Is there a case > where the data stream coming off the drive on a read (or going to the > drive on a write) might be something other "r/w a single sector"? I'm > just wondering about this sampling idea - it sounds plausible if the > only commands available are to read or write a single sector (plus the > usual seek etc.) but are other commands available where the data stream > to/from the drive might be different if say, multiple sectors can be > read/written in one command? At that point the sampling idea falls on > its ass if bolting together several emulated sectors doesn't give the > same data as it would for a real drive. > > b) In the case of ST506, I'm taking it that the controller always > provides the clock signal for reads and writes - otherwise, presumably, > there'd be no need for this oversampling of the raw bit stream idea. It > could be just sampled at the speed of the drive. I'm sure Tony will comment further, but his idea has the merit of not being restricted to single sectors; in fact it doesn't need to know *anything* about the data it's handling. It can start sampling when the interface is set to write and the relevant drive is selected, and stop when it isn't. Similarly it can replay the data stream when requested. There's nothing magical about a sector, it's just a stream of interspersed data and clock bits -- headers and all. However, it does need to be oversampled so you can get the timing right. An ST506 interface is very similar to a floppy interface, only 10 or 12 times faster. The way you read a sector from an ST506 interface is to "listen" to the data strema until you see the header for the sector you want, then start capturing the data. The way you write is to listen, and when you see the end of the preceeding sector, you wait (for the inter-sector gap time) then turn on the write signal and write a sync pattern, a header, more sync, the data+checksum, then turn the write signal off. Actually, IIRC you only rewrite the data, unless you're doing a low-level format. So Tony's idea could handle everything including an LLF, for any format and any encoding scheme you like. > c) Something that works "with most ST506 drives" is, IMHO, not good > enough. If a drive works with the ST506 controller with which it was > formatted, it should work with the emulator. Finding that it doesn't > work emulating XYZ's drive 6 months down the line because said drive is > within spec but our emulator doesn't quite like the drive spec doesn't > seem good enough. I don't know about other classic drive technologies > (all my old systems are ST506 or SCSI), so somebody can argue that case > seperately :-) Shouldn't be a problem, if you're sampling. It would be if you need to understand what the format etc is. > d) Tony's point about being able to understand all of the system duly > noted - only problem I see there there being the various combinations of > hardware options that would likely be useful to people. People would > find emulation of drives other than ST506 types useful I'm sure. Then on > the 'modern' side of the interface, there are various options - IDE, > SCSI, Ethernet, Token Ring and who knows what else. Ultimately at least, > it seems like using off the shelf components and software to drive the > modern side of things - and provide flexibility of operation - will > outweigh the desire to know intimately the entire system. You'll have a job to get a parallel port or any other standard interface to work fast enough to talk to the ST506 side. On the storage side, you could use anything you like -- make the software in the emulation system modular, and storage is just storage -- whether it's SCSI, ATA/IDE, network filestore, flash, whatever. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 7 12:30:38 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing In-Reply-To: <01a001c3bc9b$6cc4dea0$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, SP wrote: > It would be great to allow other to access this information. I have the > opportunity to obtain one Selectric and I should like to interface it too. > > Cheers > > Sergio Well, I discovered I too had a copy, so I scanned it, and posted a PDF on my web site: http://www.computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/selectric_terminal/byte-selectric-if-1977-jun.pdf Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Maddox" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:30 AM > Subject: Re: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing > > > > Hi, Brian. I retrieved the magazine and ran off photopies of > > these articles. I think it would be easier for me to snail-mail > > them to you rather than scan them -- my scanner is not set up > > and I'm not sure it will even work with the XP box I am using > > now. Could you send me your snail-mail address? > > > > Thanks for the most excellent party last Sunday. :) > > > > --Bill > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian Knittel" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 12:03 AM > > Subject: Byte Magazine article on IO Selectric interfacing > > > > > > > Hi, > > > Does anyone have the June 1977 issue of Byte Magazine > > > (vol 2 issue 6)? There are two articles in there that I'd like to get a > > scan > > > or copy of: "Interfacing the IBM Selectric Keyboard Printer" and > > > "A 6800 Selectric IO Printer Program". If anyone has this issue and can > > > scan or copy and mail the articles, I'd really appreciate it. Contact me > > on- > > > or off list. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Brian > > > > From rich at sias.us Sun Dec 7 12:08:01 2003 From: rich at sias.us (rich@sias.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Needing info on error messages for "option board" Message-ID: I am trying to get Central Point software's Deluxe option board to work on reading and writing tracks on floppies. It has been 10 years since I wanted to do this. I have version 5.4 and the book only has a little info on errors. When TCM copies from the one track and "R" is for read then it is to qualify the track read, "Q", I can do this to hard disk. When I do this from the temp copy on hard disk to another floppy it does not come back "Q" but "2" or once "3" and message box had message about destination directory. I think there was an error writing to floppy but I can't be sure. I tried all 4 port postitions for the 2 jumpers. Anyone out there still familliar with the "Deluxe Option Board" and all of its errors etc. I may have more questions. All the 'good' stuff I was looking for aparently is in archives of this discussion group that is presently unavailble. 1997-1999 era. Rich Sias From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 7 12:55:20 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse Message-ID: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> Hi all, Any ides if the keyboard and mouse needed for an SGI 4D/25 was used on any of SGI's other models? A machine just cropped up for free but it's got no mouse or keyboard with it. The keyboard socket on the machine is a 9-pin D-type female (umm a B-type in correct terminology I think) - I'm assuming the mouse plugs into a port on the keyboard, rather than tying up one of the serial ports on the machine? Oh, the root password isn't known either... but I'm assuming there will be ways around it on a machine this old. cheers Jules From aek at spies.com Sun Dec 7 13:13:28 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: disc simulators Message-ID: <200312071913.hB7JDSKw004380@spies.com> A good overview of disc formats can be found in two National app notes http://www.national.com/apnotes/Others__v17.html AN-413 AN-501 describes the SMD interface, but National doesn't have it on line any more. It can be found at: http://manuales.elo.utfsm.cl/datasheet/national/pdf/nsc04334.pdf There are lots of other related app notes there related to using their disc chipsets which would be handy as well From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:29:33 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <1070804022.6725.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 07 December 2003 13:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > That's why I gave up on it as a commercial enterprise - this seemed to > be the way things were going after a lot of the big gaming outfits had a > crack-down on copyrighted ROMs being available on the 'net. Very few > home users would want to spend 3k on a system, and no arcades (who might > have the money and be interested) would want to risk the copyright/legal > issues. But the arcades would possibly own the games anyway, and therefore are legally allowed to use the ROMs in MAME. > For the home user with the necessary skills (rudimentary electronics, > woodworking, graphic design, some software etc.) it's still a viable > project though, space permitting - if your conscience can live with the > copyright issues... What's a conscience? :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:33:39 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: classiccmp server issue In-Reply-To: <006101c3bc6e$25225fa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 07 December 2003 03:00 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Fw: classiccmp server issue > > > server... just in case. Not sure how much I trust S.M.A.R.T., > so I may let > > it ride for a while and just keep a closer eye on it. We'll see. A drive SMART complained about in one of my machines is still working happily in another over a year later, but obviously YMMV. It was my main MP3 drive at the time so I swapped it straight away rather than have it fail at an inopportune moment and then have to spend hours ripping all my CDs again... cheers w From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 7 13:37:35 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200312071137.35349.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Here are the pinouts for the DB-9 Mouse/Keyboard Connector. The connector on the DB-9 is unique to the 4D/25 and is not replicated on any other SGI model. However, by making a conversion cable you can use any sgi -/+12V keyboard/ mouse using an EIA-232 interface. I've done this for my 4D/25 and it works great. Any of the Single Tower, Twin Tower or Predator (Case types) keyboard/mouses will work; i.e., Crimson, etc. Pinouts: 1 N/C 2 KRCD - Keyboard receive data - input 3 N/C 4 -12V DC - Power 5 MRCD - Mouse Receive Data 6 GND 7 +12V DC - Power 8 KTXD - Keyboard transmit data - output 9 GND Lyle On Sunday 07 December 2003 10:45, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hi all, > > Any ides if the keyboard and mouse needed for an SGI 4D/25 was used on > any of SGI's other models? > > A machine just cropped up for free but it's got no mouse or keyboard > with it. The keyboard socket on the machine is a 9-pin D-type female > (umm a B-type in correct terminology I think) - I'm assuming the mouse > plugs into a port on the keyboard, rather than tying up one of the > serial ports on the machine? > > Oh, the root password isn't known either... but I'm assuming there will > be ways around it on a machine this old. > > cheers > > Jules -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:37:42 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: 06 December 2003 18:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > Witchy, > > I understand where you're coming from but the expense comes from the > knowledge, skill and craftmanship of being able to design your own > cabinet. Most people don't have 3, 2 or even 1 of these, so plunking down > $3K is a bargain. I think I'll just wait till the next arcade closes along the coast from here and ask 'em if they've got any old cabs they're going to put in the skip :) That'll be me sorted anyway! cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:38:32 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: 06 December 2003 18:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Witchy wrote: > > > PS I've just knocked an entire glass of red wine over my legs, > testbed PC > > (fortunately not running), 2 production machines (fronts only), > floorboards, > > stuff lying round waiting to be sold etc, components, docs and even my > > powermac G3, which should be out of harms way. Suffice to say > I'm not happy. > > Hint: don't put the wine glass between your hand and the mouse. This > lesson took me three times to learn :) How did you know that's exactly what I'd done? :) w From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 12:39:25 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 6, 3 11:44:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031207/6595978f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 12:47:30 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Dec 6, 3 11:54:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031207/4b3978e9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:13:04 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070806261.6724.49.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 7, 3 02:11:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031207/dba8190f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 13:26:57 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <10312071627.ZM12522@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 7, 3 04:27:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031207/8b45b97b/attachment.ksh From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 7 13:44:49 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200312071144.49288.lbickley@bickleywest.com> If you have an IRIX 5.3 install set, you can easily boot from the install CDROM, bypass the install, gain root control and change the root password to anything you like. If you don't have an IRIX 5.3 install CD, you'll have to do some serious hacking as IRIX by 5.3 was reasonably good on security. Of course, someone may have used a simple password and made "guessing" an option. BTW: If you get this ol' critter running, you'll be impressed by it's graphics capabilities considering it's vintage (especially if you have a higher end graphics set). This is especially true for 2D - but 3D is SLOW because the PI didn't have texture memory as on option. Lyle > Oh, the root password isn't known either... but I'm assuming there will > be ways around it on a machine this old. > > cheers > > Jules -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Sun Dec 7 12:46:31 2003 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vince Slyngstad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) References: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> <10312071126.ZM12316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <10312071612.ZM12516@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <007501c3bcf2$6f0c7220$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > FWIW, I also got unreadable cruft when I used WinZip to extract > std39.txt. > > Then WinZip is broken :-) Or perhaps it only does zip, not gzip (which > is not the same thing). I get the same cruft using gunzip under CYGWIN. I downloaded it again today; same result. Not important enough to worry about, but mysterious. Vince From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 7 14:13:43 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: HP 85 Program Development ROM Manual Message-ID: <200312071213.43198.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Does anyone have a scanned copy of the HP 85 "Program Development ROM" manual? [Not the "Advanced Programing ROM" manual - I have that]. If so, please let me know where I can download it - or simply email it directly to me. Thanks, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 7 15:02:44 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) In-Reply-To: References: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> <10312071126.ZM12316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200312072107.QAA24967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> ftp.univ-angers.fr/pub2/rfc/rfc/std/std39.txt.gz >> What's unreadable about it? It's an ordinary text file, compressed >> with gzip. Not quite. > FWIW, I also got unreadable cruft when I used WinZip to extract > std39.txt. % ftp ftp.univ-angers.fr ...fetch the file... % file std39.txt.gz std39.txt.gz: gzip compressed data, deflated, last modified: Mon Aug 11 23:47:54 2003, max compression, os: Unix % gunzip < std39.tzt.gz > std39.txt % file std39.txt std39.txt: gzip compressed data, deflated, last modified: Mon Aug 11 22:10:03 2003, max compression, os: Unix % gunzip < std39.txt > std39.txt.bis _That_ finally gives a real text file. It's not a text file compressed with gzip; it's a text file "compressed" _twice_ with gzip. (I use the quotes because the second gzipping actually enlarges the file.) And yes, it's RFC903. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 7 15:10:07 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme References: <3FD341C5.6030904@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <009601c3bd06$7e5a33c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Star Trek the original series on Wpix at 11pm, some > twighlight zone, then Creature.... Fright Night, One word: "Chillleerrrrrrr." http://www.asmallvictory.net/archives/chiller.jpg John A. From ohh at drizzle.com Sun Dec 7 15:14:08 2003 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: DSI NC2400 Reader Schem's? Message-ID: Hey, all: I've got a DSI NC-2400 paper tape reader/punch which is _almost_ completely working, but still has a small grumpy problem with its reader light source. Whatever it is, it's not as obvious as such a trivial problem _ought_ to be. :) Does anybody out there have a set of schematics or maintenance manual for the NC-2400? If it's scanned and available somewhere, great! If it's hard-copy, let me know and we can see what arrangements we can make. Thanks! -O.- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 7 15:36:05 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031206130420.029658f0@iffpcsrv.iff.kfa-juelich.de> References: <6.0.0.22.0.20031206130420.029658f0@iffpcsrv.iff.kfa-juelich.de> Message-ID: <200312072145.QAA25362@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anybody else have trouble with routinely receiving a virus in > place of the proper collection of messages which constitute an issue > from this group? [...] > One question I must face is whether our firewall is discovering > non-existent viruses, and request a repair, but if the viruses are > real, then the server for this group needs cleaning. Well, I'm not seeing anything nefarious-looking coming through the group. But I'm not getting the digest form. (Actually, if any individual messages bearing Windows malware were coming through the list, my mailer would be refusing them, so I wouldn't see them - but such things are logged, and I checked back to 2003-11-20 and found none at all.) Since you seem to have trouble receiving list content, I'm sending an explicit cc directly to you. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 15:50:52 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "RE: Space Invaders returning to arcades..." (Dec 7, 19:29) References: Message-ID: <10312072150.ZM13240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 7, 19:29, Witchy wrote: > But the arcades would possibly own the games anyway, and therefore are > legally allowed to use the ROMs in MAME. A few of them, perhaps, but I suspect a lot of copyright holders might get upset about that. If you're thinking about the exemption granted for obsolete games, it only applies where "machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace." If someone manufactures and sells machines, especially for use in arcades, the exemption does not apply. It probably doesn't apply in Europe anyway -- it's an exemption to the United States Digital Millennium Copyright Act. There is also the issue that you're not allowed to distribute ROM images with MAME, so you'd need some way of distributing the images separately. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vrs at msn.com Sun Dec 7 15:53:38 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Copy of STD39 Internet Standard (BBN Report 1822) References: <003301c3bc0c$a1f93880$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup><10312071126.ZM12316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200312072107.QAA24967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > _That_ finally gives a real text file. It's not a text file compressed > with gzip; it's a text file "compressed" _twice_ with gzip. (I use the > quotes because the second gzipping actually enlarges the file.) > > And yes, it's RFC903. Yes, that's it. Mystery solved! Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 7 16:53:33 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312071753.33501.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 07 December 2003 13:47, Tony Duell wrote: > Therer's also no seek-complete or equivalent signal for head > switches. There is a 'settling time' in the ST506 spec, but it's > short. So you have to be able to switch heads (i.e. between tracks on > the same cylinder) without transfering data to/from the modern disk. > There just isn't time to do that. > > So you have to buffer an entire cylinder's-worth of data in the > emulator, and keep on squirting out that part that corresponds to the > selected 'head'. When the classic steps to a new cylinder, you have > to save one or more of the 'tracks' in the emulator's RAM buffer (you > can flag writes to particular tracks, since there is a write gate > line, but you also have to assume that it's possible the classic has > written to all 16 tracks in the cylinder -- it certainly would when > formatting). Then you have to reload all 16 tracks-worth of data from > the modern hard disk, and then assert seek-complete to tell the > classic that the drive (emulator) is outputting the data for the new > cylinder. > > Now, I am not sure what the seek times are for ST506 drives, but I > would guess a few ms for the voice-coil ones. Transferring 4Mbytes of > data (2M from the emulator, 2M to the emulator) in 10Ms is a > 400Mbyte/s data rate. Which is fast by modern standards. Very fast. Here's an idea. You DON'T need to transfer that much in the 'cylinder change' time. First, you can double the size of the original buffer (to 4MB), and have two separate buffers. When you switch heads, all you have to do is "swap" buffers (preferally by updating a memory pointer, or using by bank switching it - not by copying it). Now all you have to do is have time to read one buffer (2MB) in during the 'cylinder change' time, which halves your necessary data transfer rate. You can then write out the other buffer "in the background" to the disk, which has only to take less time than the drive spends lingering on the current cylinder. Step two. Add a 'dirty' word to each cylinder that has one bit per cylinder. Clear these before reading in the new cylinder, and set them only if the host asserts its write gate signal. In the common case, this will greatly reduce the amount of data you need to write back to disk. In addition, if no dirty bits are set, you can just 'junk' the data in memory, and NOT write it to disk. This keeps you from having to flush out the data you need to write to disk when the controller is just stepping the drive through cylinders. However, you have to be careful to wait for the 'to be written' data in the background buffer to be completely written before allowing the cylinder change to finish if you have any dirty bits set. Step three (version 1). While the head can switch tracks at any time, the disk does _rotate_ linearly. So, if you store the bits on the real disk in a manner like this: (assuimg 4 heads) Block #: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... Cylinder: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ... Head: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 ... Sector: 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 ... You can start reading this data when you're told to switch tracks, and assert the 'seek complete' line when you're ready to read the block correlating to head 0, sector 1. As long as you can read the data from disk into memory fast enough to keep ahead of the memory position from which you're sending data to the old controller, you're set. Also, it's important to selectively write, using the dirty bit scheme. If you've written to a track, make sure you have the *entire* track read into memory before you step to a new track and write data out, or you'll lose data... Step three-B. Don't write your background/output buffer while reading new data in, make sure you do this either before or after reading (after reading should improve speed). Step three (version 2). Add two more buffers to store data (up to 8MB). You can at most move one track at a time. After you've written your data for the previous (dirty) cylinders to disk, prefetch data into a buffer for the next two possible cylinder choices - moving forward one and moving back one. Also, don't allow a track switch to finish until you've completely 1) written out the dirty buffers 2) and read in the cylinder that's going to be switched to. If you get the signal to switch cylinders before reading both cylinders, stop reading the one that's not getting switched to, and only read the one that is getting switched to. Once you're done reading that, assert the 'seek complete' signal, and bank-switch the correct buffer into memory. For version 2, the worst case scenerio will be writing to an entire cylinder, and then seeking more than one track immediately afterwards, and will require the full 4MB of data to be moved in the time of two drive seeks. Version 1 would be faster, but would be more error/bug prone, and you need to ensure that you can read your data in from disk at least (#tracks) times faster than you need to output it to the original host controller. There's still the issue of what to do when the host powers down... you could perhaps have a timer that automatically writes any changed data out to disk if the cylinder hasn't changed in the past, say, 500ms, and clears the dirty bits after it has written the data. Then it's just a matter of making sure the operator waits at least a few seconds before powering off the machine, after halting it. Now, if I could just use things like this email to satify course requirements at Purdue... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Dec 7 17:15:48 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM?" (Dec 7, 19:26) References: Message-ID: <10312072315.ZM13329@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 7, 19:26, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, many machines used Western Digital hard disk controller chipsets and > had relatively standard formats, but others didn't. Some manufacturers > used homebrew controllers -- 2910-based state machines, 8X300-based > microcontrollers, ASICs, etc. RQDXn controllers come to mind :-( > > the interface is set to write and the relevant drive is selected, and > > stop when it isn't. Similarly it can replay the data stream when > > requested. There's nothing magical about a sector, it's just a stream > > A minor correction : There is no 'request' for outputting data, other > than selecting the drive, head, and cylinder. When that's done, you have > to keep on squirting data to the controller. I meant it can stop as soon as the drive is no longer selected. Most systms, if they want to read a sector, assert the select, wait for the correct header to come around, and then de-select as soon as they've got it. A lot don't of course; they wait until they've verified the checksum, and if it fails, they expect to see the same sector come around again. Or they may keep the drive selected for a while in case whatever software is asking for sectors, asks for another one. > > So Tony's idea could handle everything including an LLF, for any format > > and any encoding scheme you like. > > Which, IMHO, is important. No, it's essential if emulation is going to work for anything other than the simplest case of a PC with an ST506 controller (which is trivial to replace with IDE anyway). :-) BTW, it occured to me that you can alleviate the transfer rate problem on the real drive by splitting the data stream, like RAID systems do. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From patrick at evocative.com Sun Dec 7 17:26:38 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: VCF advertising and theme In-Reply-To: <3FD341C5.6030904@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > sometimes a Discover Science special on PBS.... Now with my Satellite > I can't find nearly that much "get you through the night" TV shows.... Curt, no Tivo?!? I'm never at a loss for something I _care_ to watch, whatever the hour. --Patrick From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Dec 7 17:54:26 2003 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <10312072315.ZM13329@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10312072315.ZM13329@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 7, 19:26, Tony Duell wrote: > > > OK, many machines used Western Digital hard disk controller chipsets > and > > had relatively standard formats, but others didn't. Some > manufacturers > > used homebrew controllers -- 2910-based state machines, 8X300-based > > microcontrollers, ASICs, etc. > > RQDXn controllers come to mind :-( RQDX1 and RQDX2 used homebrew controllers. RQDX3 used SMC's 9224, which is format-compatible with Western Digital. -- Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 19:21:38 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312071753.33501.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 7, 3 05:53:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2445 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031208/fae39565/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 7 19:31:48 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <10312072315.ZM13329@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 7, 3 11:15:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 988 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031208/5c262dc9/attachment.ksh From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sun Dec 7 23:08:41 2003 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/35 Personal Iris question Message-ID: <1070860120.15874.8.camel@thor> Seeing the 4D/25 question, reminded me of a machine I've got in storage. I've got a 4D/35 with the storage tower thingy. Unfortunately, I only get the fault light when it comes up. After digging around in it, I found that the internal fan was shot. Would that cause the fault? I know they're heat senstive, so I suppose its possible the whole thing is hosed, but if its just a fan sensor, how would I determine that? Any hints on where to start? Thanks! Brian Wheeler bdwheele@Indiana.edu From tdembinski at san.rr.com Sun Dec 7 18:39:20 2003 From: tdembinski at san.rr.com (Thomas H. Dembinski II) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Miniscribe Message-ID: <000001c3bd22$33f5f280$6401a8c0@celeron> Do you perchance still have the old Miniscribe 3180E ESDI? Tom dembinski2@yahoo.com From eddy620 at optonline.net Sun Dec 7 17:32:03 2003 From: eddy620 at optonline.net (Edward Koloski) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: CRT5027 Message-ID: <000801c3bd1a$51deef70$8e7ba8c0@edsdesktop> Did you ever recieve a datasheet for the crt5027? If so please email it to me. Thank you for your time/ Edward Koloski eddy620@optonline.net From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 7 15:26:00 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20031207222600.2ae56d3e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 07 Dec 2003 18:45:55 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Any ides if the keyboard and mouse needed for an SGI 4D/25 was > used on any of SGI's other models? AFAIK all the 4D models used the same keyboards. Some of the later machines (4D3x, Indigo) used a PS/2 style 6 pin mini DIN connector at the machine side. > I'm assuming the mouse plugs into a port on the keyboard, rather > than tying up one of the serial ports on the machine? Yes, the mouse gets pluged into the keyboard. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ian.douglas at nec.com.au Mon Dec 8 03:28:38 2003 From: ian.douglas at nec.com.au (Ian) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Looking for HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor software Message-ID: <3FD44446.25AD6C1D@nec.com.au> Hi Glen, My apologies for emailing directly, but I got your address from the email you replied/posted last year about having the files needed for a hp16500A and given the timeframe thought it might be better to email direct. If possible could I trouble you to obtain them if you still have them? kind regards, Ian I have them. I can send you a .zip file with them. -Glen >From: "Charles Ader" >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >To: >Subject: Looking for HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor software >Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:42:30 -0800 > >I am trying to find the software that is needed >for an HP 16500A logic analyzer to operate the >HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor. > >The HP16500A I am using has an 16510A analyzer >module. I just need the analyzer setup files and >inverse assembler. > >Thanks, >Charles Ader. From jrice54 at charter.net Mon Dec 8 06:40:13 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3FD4712D.5090207@charter.net> I found a PI mouse at a surplus store for a buck. If you want it, reply off list. I think I paid a buck, so you could have it for postage. James Jules Richardson wrote: >Hi all, > >Any ides if the keyboard and mouse needed for an SGI 4D/25 was used on >any of SGI's other models? > >A machine just cropped up for free but it's got no mouse or keyboard >with it. The keyboard socket on the machine is a 9-pin D-type female >(umm a B-type in correct terminology I think) - I'm assuming the mouse >plugs into a port on the keyboard, rather than tying up one of the >serial ports on the machine? > >Oh, the root password isn't known either... but I'm assuming there will >be ways around it on a machine this old. > >cheers > >Jules > > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From jpdavis at gorge.net Mon Dec 8 08:08:16 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jdavis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Symbolics 1200 mouse hack Message-ID: <3FD485D0.70108@gorge.net> Hi, I have an Symbolics 1200XL box missing the mouse, I've been thinking about using an buss mouse with the proper rewire. Is there anything that I may be missing ( levels? polarity? ) Thanks Jim Davis From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 8 08:47:54 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: <10312072150.ZM13240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] > Sent: 07 December 2003 21:51 > To: witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Space Invaders returning to arcades... > > > On Dec 7, 19:29, Witchy wrote: > > > But the arcades would possibly own the games anyway, and therefore > are > > legally allowed to use the ROMs in MAME. > > A few of them, perhaps, but I suspect a lot of copyright holders might > get upset about that. If you're thinking about the exemption granted > for obsolete games, it only applies where "machine or system necessary > to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer > manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial > marketplace." If someone manufactures and sells machines, especially > for use in arcades, the exemption does not apply. It probably doesn't > apply in Europe anyway -- it's an exemption to the United States > Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Indeed, but when the means for playing early arcade games is readily available then who in their right mind is going to go to all the bother of re-engineering a new board for Space Invaders? > There is also the issue that you're not allowed to distribute ROM > images with MAME, so you'd need some way of distributing the images > separately. yup, that's why I said any such cab would have to be MAMEless.... cheers w From asholz at topinform.com Mon Dec 8 08:53:34 2003 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Symbolics 1200 mouse hack In-Reply-To: <3FD485D0.70108@gorge.net> References: <3FD485D0.70108@gorge.net> Message-ID: <3FD4906E.7090906@topinform.com> Jim, I'm quite sure, you don't need the 1200XL, really - I'll send you my postal adress! I know two kind of mice, one quite propriatary one and one type build by "Mouse-Systems". The latter I've got sometimes ago. Before I've been querying the net for a similar approach, but I didn't find any kind of information for such task. Andreas Jdavis wrote: > Hi, > I have an Symbolics 1200XL box missing the mouse, I've been thinking > about using an buss mouse with the proper rewire. Is there anything that > I may be missing ( levels? polarity? ) > Thanks > Jim Davis > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 8 09:19:49 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Wang terminal Message-ID: Here's an Wang terminal on eBay in case anyone was interested: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2771213664&category=4193 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 09:44:03 2003 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... Message-ID: I've been buying from Happ Controls for almost 15 years to make interfaces for museum interactives. Their products will stand up to severe pounding. I've been using the same trackball with my regular PC for 12 years and I've only had to clean and oil it once. When I took it apart to oil the bearings, it looked like one of the rollers had worn a bit, so I wrapped a piece of Scotch Magic Tape (R) around the shaft, and it has been working fine for the last two years. Bob Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:59:36 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: RE: Space Invaders returning to arcades... I don't recall this being mentioned before, but I've found that Happ Controls (http://www.happcontrols.com) has everything you need to build a proper MAME setup. The buttons are reasonably priced. The trackball will give you a bit of heartburn. The spinner is a must-have. Don't buy a coin door from Happ. You can get them on eBay for about $30 + shipping. _________________________________________________________________ Cell phone ‘switch’ rules are taking effect — find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 8 10:00:59 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: [ComputerHistoryClub] FW: Looking for Oral Histories related to DEC (fwd) Message-ID: See message below. Jill Jackson is the one to respond to. Vulcan.com is Paul Allen's venture investment firm, and I'd bet this is related to the computer museum they are throwing together. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:19:09 -0800 From: Chuck Piotrowski Reply-To: computerhistoryclub@lists.damer.com To: "'computerhistoryclub@lists.damer'" Cc: "'Jeff Yost (E-mail)'" Subject: [ComputerHistoryClub] FW: Looking for Oral Histories related to DEC The following was a request on the Archives Listserve. Thought some one here may be able to help...Please contact her directly. Happy Holidays! c- ----------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Jill Jackson [mailto:JillJ@VULCAN.COM] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:29 AM To: ARCHIVES@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Subject: Looking for Oral Histories related to DEC I am looking for interviews with people who used, operated, designed, were fond of, DEC PDP-10 minicomputers. These may be people who worked at DEC, but not necessarily. I am also interested in PDP-10 users who interacted with them in a corporate, educational, or timeshare setting. Interviews with PDP-10 hackers and enthusiasts would be of interest too. Thanks for any leads. Jill ______________________________________________________________________ Jill U. Jackson Senior Archivist Library and Archives Department Vulcan Inc A posting from the Archives & Archivists LISTSERV List sponsored by the Society of American Archivists, www.archivists.org. For the terms of participation, please refer to http://www.archivists.org/listservs/arch_listserv_terms.asp. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send e-mail to listserv@listserv.muohio.edu In body of message: SUB ARCHIVES firstname lastname *or*: UNSUB ARCHIVES To post a message, send e-mail to archives@listserv.muohio.edu Or to do *anything* (and enjoy doing it!), use the web interface at http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/archives.html Problems? Send e-mail to Robert F Schmidt _______________________________________________ ComputerHistoryClub mailing list ComputerHistoryClub@lists.damer.com http://lists.damer.com/mailman/listinfo/computerhistoryclub -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 8 10:16:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: HP 700/RX terminal available for shipping from Lousiana Message-ID: Francisco has an HP 700/RX terminal available for the cost of shipping from St. James, LA. Contact him directly. Reply-to: POLZIFR@cpchem.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hpd at demus.de Mon Dec 8 10:10:43 2003 From: hpd at demus.de (P.Demus - DEMUS DATENSYSTEME) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: HP 64000 hard disk structure ??? Message-ID: <3FD4A283.3080807@atlas> Hello ! i'm trying to decode the disc structure of a HP7912 hard disk attached to a HP 64000 uC System. build in 1985! yeaaah I managed to copy the HP7912 sectors on a MO-disc SCSI on series hp 9000 / 300. i read in the MO disc image on a PC. now i have a 54MB image file. has anybody some infos about structure and tables of the directory of the HP64000 disc format ?? it's not HFS (HPUX) and NOT LIF.... i decoded the directory entries for name and date and size of file. now there are two 16bit words describing first and last page used for storing data. i have no idea how this 16bit value is belonging to a sector number. any hints ?? thanks peter -- DEMUS DATENSYSTEME GmbH ? Steinbergstr. 24 D-30559 Hannover ? Germany Tel +49-511-95448-0 ? Fax +49-511-95448-44 http://www.demus.de ? mailto:info@demus.de From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Dec 8 10:57:29 2003 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris@direcway.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Ping: Ian Primus Message-ID: <133bce5133e80d.133e80d133bce5@direcway.com> Hey Ian, did you ever get any of my emails about the Mac Classic you were going to sell me back in June? I've been having problems with bounces and "blacklisting" of Direcway so if you've replied I didn't get any of them. thanks Charles From arohirohi at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 10:16:05 2003 From: arohirohi at hotmail.com (Aro Hirohi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: HP Apollo DN5500 disk and sysboot Message-ID: I am trying to salvage a nice Apollo DN5500 server. Unfortunately I had to swap the original Maxtor ESDI 760 HD - it makes a clunky noise - for a lower capacity Micropolis and I have some difficulties to reinstall DomainOS software. The system starts under service mode. It can read a bootable tape and install the mini DomainOS software but it cannot boot DomainOS directly from the hard disk ... it dies with an "Error: sysboot not found" What I've done ... in service mode, with a 10.3.4 boot tape inserted, > re > di c > ex config, ex calendar, ex invol ... to enter the new hd configuration, setup date/time and format hd then ... > ex domain_os ... does a lot of shoeshinning, copy base OS from tape to hd and says that sysboot is found and skipped ... ) go ... goes to HP logo and login or ) sh runs a text shell ... I was delighted ... but now if I shutdown and reboot the system in normal mode, it passes the tests ok but fails to start the base OS complaining about "sysboot not found". Same result in service mode if I do a > re and > ex domain_os. Considering that it boots fine from a tape, I assume that the sysboot is not a eprom program and that it has been erased by formatting the drive. Does anybody know how to install the sysboot. Does it have anything to do with the 40KB file copied from the tape to //nodeXXX/sysboot on the hard disk? Kind regards, Aro From vcf at siconic.com Mon Dec 8 12:08:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:44 2005 Subject: Need SunOS 4.03c (June 1989) Message-ID: I'm in the market for the install media and documentation for SunOS 4.03c (June 1989). If you've got it or know where I can get it, please let me know. I'd prefer originals. I'm willing to pay reasonable price/costs. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From maya2blue at juno.com Mon Dec 8 14:41:28 2003 From: maya2blue at juno.com (Harve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: apple/corvus hard drive Message-ID: <20031208.124151.18851.405572@webmail21.nyc.untd.com> Hi Al, I have just joined the list and noticed the April 2003 exchange between you and Martin Scott Goldberg re Apples and Corvus hard drives. That subject is why I joined the list! I have been searching for documentation and admin/maintanence software for the Corvus hd for sometime. I am a middle school teacher and have an old IIe/Corvus Appletalk network that my kiddos use. It was orginally part of an Impac Learning System lab. I "snagged" it when we upgraded some years ago. I have ten computers, a hd chock full of MECC software and a variety of other software. I also have a 4 drawer file cabinet full of Apple software, and lots of extra apple talk cards/cables/etc. What I want to do is learn how to "add" or "delete" pgms from the HD in order to use more/different software. The specifics of the HD are: Corvus model 74MB7 Rev C SN 398-GN9230-P I have no hd software or instructions of any sort. I *do* know how to connect it all, boot it up and use it. :) Just wondering if anything you have in the way of docs or software might be of help to me? Or perhaps, you could point me in the right direction! Please let me know if you can be of help, and what sort of costs might be involved. Many tks your help.. Best regards. Harve Harve Thorn Greenmiddle School Greenland, AR 72701 hthorn@greenland.nwsc.k12.ar.us > From: Martin Scott Goldberg > > Anyone have any extra old Corvus hard drives? I'm > looking for on for my Apple II display. Thanks! > > Marty I have an "H" series drive and an Apple II specific Omnidrive. Not 100% sure that they are still working, as they have been in storage for over 10 years. I also have controller cards and manuals/software for them. I'd love to adopt them out to a good home, and wouldn't want much for them. I just can't stand to throw classic computer stuff out, but would love to lighten the load around here... They are heavy and shipping would be expensive. It would probably cost more to ship the units than I'd want for them... Contact me off list if you're interested... Regards, Al Hartman ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From aek at spies.com Mon Dec 8 15:59:10 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: CRT5027 Message-ID: <200312082159.hB8LxAj5030721@spies.com> The data sheet can be found on page 243 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_StandardMicrosystems.pdf From ikvsabre at comcast.net Mon Dec 8 15:59:25 2003 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Space Invaders returning to arcades... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312081659250578.05FD8154@smtp.comcast.net> Check eBay (in hte US). I've bought arcade buttons, the exact ones used in arcade cabinets. Joe *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12/6/2003 at 10:49 AM Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On 5 Dec 2003, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Last time I had a serious look at this (and had a homebrew cocktail >> cabinet machine up and running with a 15" screen) there were ROMs and >> plans aplenty out on the 'net for download. One problem I found was that >> I could find nowhere in the UK to supply the 'proper' big round >> pushbutton controls as used on the old arcade machines - all the ones >> sold here were too small. > >Did you also look for elevator buttons? Same size/style. Perhaps you can >hit up an elevator manufacturer? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From drembedded at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 16:21:13 2003 From: drembedded at yahoo.com (Michael James) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: 10342 manuals and softwasre Message-ID: <20031208222113.83536.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Simon, I came across your posting last year regarding the HP 10342 preprocessor. Did you find manuals and software for it? If so can you send me a zipped version of both? Thanks, Michael 408-421-9684 Hello Glen, I'm searching for the Software for the HP 10342. I have read your posting from Dec 26 08:12:15 2002 Could you please send me the .zip, too There was another posting about the manual for the 10342B. Did you or s.o. else publish it? I've manuals for all components of my LA and Preprocessor except for the 10342... If noone published it, can you tell me how to setup the S3 and J5 on the board? Thanks Simon Ulbrich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ From danjr at voyager.net Mon Dec 8 17:27:19 2003 From: danjr at voyager.net (danjr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group Message-ID: <200312082327.hB8NRJSi004191@mail3.mx.voyager.net> I routinely get virus alerts off of the cctalk and cctech lists. The ones I receive are usually warnings that a virus was detected and removed, and I have never actually gotten a virus from the list, so I usually ignore them. Dan > Does anybody else have trouble with routinely receiving a virus in place of > the proper collection of messages which constitute an issue from this > group? What I often receive looks like > > > ------------------ Virus Warning Message (IIIIIIIIIIIIII) > > Security warning Exceed_Decompression_Layer in file email-body > The file email-body is moved to /etc/iscan/virus/virNUv9Rs. > > Information from IIIIIIIII Mail-Server: Scanner detected a virus > (Exceed_Decompression_Layer) in an attachment (email-body) of this message. > The attachment was removed from the message. No further action is required > on your part. If you have questions, please contact > postmast@IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------ Virus Warning Message (IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII) > > email-body is removed from here because it contains a virus. > > > > I have removed the name of our mail processor and substituted several > letters= "I". > > These viruses come numbered in the correct sequence, as if they were issued > by the normal server which distributes the proper message collections. By > the time the messages reach me any real content has been removed. Several > of these arrive per week. > > One question I must face is whether our firewall is discovering > non-existent viruses, and request a repair, but if the viruses are real, > then the server for this group needs cleaning. It is possible there is > somebody out there at a third point doing this, but how does this explain > having the messages in the correct sequence and delivered to me while > eliminating the correct message? (It never shows up, and how would this > "Third Party Server" be trapping the proper messages in order to substitute > a virus loaded message? If I were receiving one proper message and also > the contaminated version it would be easier to explain.) > > Any advice would be appreciated. > > Bob > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From tomj at wps.com Mon Dec 8 19:43:06 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070934186.3030.321.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 10:39, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Tom Jennings wrote: > > And then later when EIDE and serial ATA are as obsolete as core, your > > simulator is more likely to port to whatever the crapyp hardware of 2020 > > is. > > > > (The assumption is that translating C, perl, whatever will be easier > > than soldering.) > Also assuming ECP parallel ports will be resident on the crappy hardware > of the future. I never assumed ECP parallel ports, but custom-built hardware interface of the smaller order that gets the job done. For non-screaming-performance (SASI) hell a USB-connected home-made box would do. But in the box would be 'simple' hardware, and not very much of it, and since it's intended to be a 'classic comp to USB' adapter, it would be simpler to adapt to other systems, adn in the future, when USB is as dorky as parallel, if it were documented right. Nothing lasts forever. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Dec 8 20:03:02 2003 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: WDC1797 floppy controller data sheet? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20031208200112.04791760@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, I am in need of a WDC1797 (or FD1797) floppy controller data sheet. Does anyone have a scan that they could please send me or point me to? --tnx --tom From tomj at wps.com Mon Dec 8 20:03:53 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <10312071627.ZM12522@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1070806261.6724.49.camel@weka.localdomain> <10312071627.ZM12522@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1070935433.3030.327.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 08:27, Pete Turnbull wrote: > So Tony's idea could handle everything including an LLF, for any format > and any encoding scheme you like. I agree also, Tony's most recent idea is probably the most robust over all. And, satisfying both of our opinions, could be done in hardware, or in software with a little hardware glue :-) > > c) Something that works "with most ST506 drives" is, IMHO, not good > > enough. If a drive works with the ST506 controller with which it was > > formatted, it should work with the emulator. But simulator an ST506 shoudl be straightforward enough today, since it's all in the past, and configurable on the simulator side. > You'll have a job to get a parallel port or any other standard > interface to work fast enough to talk to the ST506 side. On the > storage side, you could use anything you like -- make the software in > the emulation system modular, and storage is just storage -- whether > it's SCSI, ATA/IDE, network filestore, flash, whatever. Parallel is dead. USB is the flavor of the month, and today easily used. There are USB adapters that appear to be 16550/8250 serial ports from the software side, for instance, but operate at USB speeds. I'm sure there are other trivially adapted versions of this idea that will do USB 2.0. From tomj at wps.com Mon Dec 8 20:07:07 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070935627.3030.331.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 10:39, Tony Duell wrote: > The problem with PCs is that the designs change far too often. It's OK > saying you can fix PCs by board-swapping (actually, it's not, but that's > another rant), but often you find the replacement board/module is no > longer available I think you're missing the point here, the idea was that using "current pc tech" you could use current-standard software environment and hardware interfaces, using the "pee cee" as an interchangable black box. Software program inside, standard interface outside, everything else purely blackboxed. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 8 20:18:45 2003 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Hayes 300... In-Reply-To: <1070934186.3030.321.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> Message-ID: I'm looking for a Hayes Smartmodem 300 to add to my collection of Hayes Stack components. A Working unit with a power supply would be great. :) It should also handle the morse output command (AT C I think). Please reply off list. Thanks! g. From tomj at wps.com Mon Dec 8 20:10:58 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1070935858.2633.335.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 10:47, Tony Duell wrote: > So you have to buffer an entire cylinder's-worth of data in the emulator, > and keep on squirting out that part that corresponds to the selected > 'head'. When the classic steps to a new cylinder, you have to save one or > more of the 'tracks' in the emulator's RAM buffer (you can flag writes to > particular tracks, since there is a write gate line, but you also have to > assume that it's possible the classic has written to all 16 tracks in the > cylinder -- it certainly would when formatting). Then you have to reload > all 16 tracks-worth of data from the modern hard disk, and then assert > seek-complete to tell the classic that the drive (emulator) is outputting > the data for the new cylinder. I had forgotten this about ST506! But hell, RAM costs being what they are, the whole disk image could be kept in memory, with a dirty bit and/or timer to write changes to permanent store to avoid data loss, in the simulator. Hmm... how about a hardware simulator, with a USB port on the back side that connects to a host computer. You load the "ST506" image into the simulator, copy it back out for safe keeping when you're done. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Dec 8 20:20:12 2003 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Apple II workstation Card References: Message-ID: <002d01c3bdfa$fcb1a4c0$6501a8c0@barton> I finally got a hold of one of these, anyone have the disks? From aek at spies.com Mon Dec 8 20:29:39 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: WDC1797 floppy controller data sheet? Message-ID: <200312090229.hB92TdQU006181@spies.com> page 173 of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/westernDigital/_dataBooks/wd1983catalog_02.pdf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 8 21:04:53 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070934186.3030.321.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Dec 8, 3 05:43:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031209/7c83a92b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 8 21:07:15 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070935627.3030.331.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Dec 8, 3 06:07:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031209/4636ac21/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 8 21:11:56 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1070935858.2633.335.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Dec 8, 3 06:10:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031209/7c5e84f7/attachment.ksh From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 8 22:57:54 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: up late and working (classiccmp related) Message-ID: <001301c3be11$01a44490$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Since the wife is out of town, it's a good night to stay up late and work on things classic computer related. I reached a milestone, so thought I'd share :) I now have two HP 7906 drives working flawlessly. 5 more to go. But instead of working on the others, right now I'm going through and running diags on each board in the 13037 controller... meaning of all the 7 or 8 13037 boxes I have, testing each card one at a time in a known working 13037. What fun. Very time consuming, but, when I go to work on the next drive, I can at least know any problems I run into are the drive rather than the controller. I'm also testing all the cards in the drive one at a time with cards from the other drives. Life is much better when you have two of an item to use as a testbed. I do have a 7905 as well... that one will probably wind up on the trading block - after I check it out and make sure it works. Anyone want a 7912? Heavy beast, and HPIB only so I have no interest in it. I think I'm going to go back and change my HP2000 Access system rack configuration. Move the paper tape reader and paper tape punch to the other side of the dual bay rack, and mount a 7906 in the spot where they were. Masochistic I tell ya. Well, this is all a milestone for ME at least, because I've always been somewhat "afraid" of working on 14" hard drives. But I think I'm getting the hang of it :) Well, diags just finished on the ECC board, time for the next card. Cheers Jay From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 8 23:02:58 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: FREE: Dec Storageworks enclosures and PDU References: Message-ID: <001201c3be11$b6f4bdc0$1a02a8c0@starship1> Available for free to anyone willing to pay shipping: 6 DEC Storageworks BA350 enclosures, tested and working $15 Each shipping or take them all for $70 shipping. 2 DEC Power Distribution units, 220V 20a circuits input, they have 28 110V standard power plugs to plug into any device such as pc's, drive array's, networking gear, etc.... These are VERY heavy, the power cabled alone must weigh about 20lbs !!! Shipping is $40 UPS each anywhere in the US You pay the shipping, they are yours, will offer these for 1 week, then they are off to recycling. Curt From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Dec 9 00:20:56 2003 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: WDC1797 floppy controller data sheet? References: <200312081800.hB8I02iU013570@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002701c3be1c$9b08c1f0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> I found that it helps to search for WD179x or WD279x when looking for Western Digital FDC data sheets. A good set of WD179x (and WD1771) data sheets and appnotes can be found on David Keil TRS-80 page. http://discover-net.net/~dmkeil/trspdf.htm On the tool bar on the left side go down to the "TRS-80 Books & Technical Manuals" icon. A copy of the 279x data sheeets can be found on my site. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/TMS279X_DataSheet.pdf Michael Holley From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Dec 9 00:36:34 2003 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> > Does anybody else have trouble with routinely receiving a virus in place of > the proper collection of messages which constitute an issue from this > group? All of the messages from Tony Duell come as an attached .ksh file. This may trigger your virus software His messages in the web archive are also that way. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ Michael Holley Message: 2 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:46:39 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2441 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/10cc7c9a/attachment-0001.ksh From constable at powerup.com.au Mon Dec 8 22:07:25 2003 From: constable at powerup.com.au (david constable) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: bbc master 128 plus 512 board + 2 disk drives Message-ID: <002601c3be09$f4761bb0$0100a8c0@davidwzg1mpxp9> Hello Tony I am interested in selling a Master 128 computer. I was referred to your site by a friend in computing. I thought that I might boot it up again, and with the use of its RS232 port I would use it as a controller for a variety of electronic projects (such as are sold at Tandy's or in Australia Dick Smith Electronics's). But I have become more interested in traditional photography. It is a BBC master 128 computer. And I have a circuit board to upgrade it to a 512. I have the 2 manuals that go with it, each is nearly an inch thick, and I have the manual from the computer it was derived from, the BBC B, again nearly an inch thick. The earlier manual heavily complements the Master 128 manuals; it is a great shame it wasn't sold with them. It would have saved me some grief. I also have a workshop manual for it including wiring diagrams and diagnostics. I have two single 5 and a quarter inch disk drives plus a heap of original discs and software. I have a stack of computer magazines, over 2 feet tall, which include programs and electronics projects for interfacing all sorts of devices with it. I used to use my colour tv as my monitor and an Epson FX 80 dot matrix as my printer. Regards David Constable From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 9 03:04:05 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: "Michael Holley" "Re: Virus Distribution via this group" (Dec 8, 22:36) References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 8, 22:36, Michael Holley wrote: > > > Does anybody else have trouble with routinely receiving a virus in place > of > > the proper collection of messages which constitute an issue from this > > group? > > All of the messages from Tony Duell come as an attached .ksh file. This may > trigger your virus software > > His messages in the web archive are also that way. Eh? Don't believe everything you see in a mailing list archive :-) Something to do with the archive (and maybe the digest? Are you guys getting the list (it's a mailing list, not a group) in digest form?) is misunderstanding something -- and apparently so is your Outlook Express, if it tells you that Tony's messages are anything other than normal ASCII email. Tony's using ELM, a perfectly respected mailer. There's *no* attachment at all in Tony's messages, and if there were, the mailing list would strip it off. What you're seeing are messages without a MIME type, and something is trying to make them fit an inappropriate mould. They don't appear on the list with any attachment when I receive them, and messages I've had from Tony directly certainly are not like that. They have headers like this: From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 03:04:53 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <1070934186.3030.321.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Dec 8, 3 05:43:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Content-Type: text Subject: Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? not like this: > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:46:39 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system > RTE6/VM? > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: text > Size: 2441 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031205/10cc7c9a/attachment-0001.ksh Moreover, they have no attachments, no hooks for attachments, and nothing other than correct ASCII headers and plain ASCII text (as, indeed, the headers indicate). Whats in the archive is also plain text, so whatever is deciding that it's "non-text" is wrong. Jay, is something broken? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Dec 9 09:23:22 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > I had forgotten this about ST506! > > It appears that few people in this discussion have ever seriously looked > at the ST506 interface. I guess I had a mis-spent youth looking at hard > disk drive and controller schematics. > > > > > But hell, RAM costs being what they are, the whole disk image could be > > kept in memory, with a dirty bit and/or timer to write changes to > > permanent store to avoid data loss, in the simulator. > > I would dispute that. It's 2Mbytes for one cylinder or thereabouts (128K > per trask, 16 heads). I don't know how many cylinders was the maximum on > ST506 drives, but certainly 1024 cylinder drives exist (and I think > getting on for double that...). Let's say 1024 cylinders. Thats 2 > gigabytes of data for the emulated disk image. > > Now, 2 Gigabytes is a lot of RAM (at least to me). Considering the > emulator RAM (at least for the cylinder currently being accessed) really > needs to be fast-ish static RAM, gettign 2 GB of that is going to be > unworkable... > > > > > > Hmm... how about a hardware simulator, with a USB port on the back side > > that connects to a host computer. You load the "ST506" image into the > > simulator, copy it back out for safe keeping when you're done. > > Maybe. Personally, I'd rather have a disk emulator that's transparent to > the user of the classic. Plug it in place of the old ST506 drive and go. > No commands _to_ the emulator (e.g. from the modern PC's keyboard). No > data loss if you forgwt to 'save the image' before turning off the classic. > > -tony > But you really dont need 2G bytes of RAM... suitably encoded (instead of using a wasteful bit stream, record and play back the delta-time between transitions and then huffman encode/decode the result) This means you shouldn't end up storing much more than the original disk data size... a $15 FPGA and a $15 Sync SRAM is just about all thats needed + the hardware interface for the specific drive family... Peter Wallace From ken at fraserhouse.com Tue Dec 9 09:37:34 2003 From: ken at fraserhouse.com (Ken Campbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: <2DDB781F248C6BBE5AE0021B@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Message-ID: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Greetings, Does anyone have some "care and feeding" tips for vintage reel-to-reel tape drives? I've recently purchased a couple nice 9 Track drives, and want to make sure they (and the media) last as long as possible. I've already given the heads, rollers and guides a good cleaning with 99.9% anhydrous Isopropyl Alcohol using 'fuzzless' cotton cleaning sticks, and plan to do so on a regular basis. Is there such a thing as too much cleaning? ;) What other tips and tricks should I know? For example, should I always unload and store the tapes in their carriers immediately after I'm done using the drives, or can I safely leave them loaded for an extended period (oxidization? de/magnetization? deterioration?). They definitively look cooler with tapes loaded :) Thanks, Ken C. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 9 10:30:30 2003 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Message-ID: <000701c3be71$c3209460$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Ken Campbell" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:37 PM Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? > Greetings, > > Does anyone have some "care and feeding" tips for vintage reel-to-reel > tape drives? I've recently purchased a couple nice 9 Track drives, and > want to make sure they (and the media) last as long as possible. My personal feelings regarding reel to reel tapes (I've been using them since 1969) are as follows: - when cleaning, dont forget the parts just before the read/write head. on some drives, it is just a "knife" scraping the shit away, other drives have a "vacuum cleaner" - when I was an operator, we used to clean tape drives every 8 hours, at the start of a shift, whether they needed it or not. The system was an IBM 360/40, with 6-7 tapedrives, and they saw heavy use (e.g. a tapesort taking 4-5 hours....) - when tapes are loaded, they are tensioned. This condition along makes mounting for fun a big nono. What you could do, is mounting some scratch tapes, on which you dont save data for a long time. On the longer term, tapes must be rewritten every 2nd or 3rd year, in order to avoid crosstalk between the layers. You should also check the flanges (?) for being straight ( not bent ). I've often see "bent" flages, which were so bad that the tape was not vertical with respect to the flanges, but at a 30-40 degree angle. It also made a horrible noise, so you will notice it. You should also take care with respect to the tape capacity / type. Most drives handle 1600 and/or 6250 bpi tapes, but 3200 can also be found. 800 bpi tapes are very old indeed, but I still encounter them regularly. When you write e.g. a 6250 density, dont use tapes certified for less. The oxide used is different (but I'm not a specialist on that). The problem is roughly comparable with writing DD floppies in a HD drive or v.v. Storage : always keep tapes in containers. Period. (apart from demo tapes, which you can do without) Canisters should be stored upright, so the tape itself doesnt "sag" to the flange. Now let's see who disagrees with me .... Nico From kth at srv.net Tue Dec 9 10:17:36 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Message-ID: <3FD5F5A0.2020009@srv.net> Ken Campbell wrote: > Greetings, > > Does anyone have some "care and feeding" tips for vintage reel-to-reel > tape drives? I've recently purchased a couple nice 9 Track drives, and > want to make sure they (and the media) last as long as possible. > > I've already given the heads, rollers and guides a good cleaning with > 99.9% > anhydrous Isopropyl Alcohol using 'fuzzless' cotton cleaning sticks, > and plan > to do so on a regular basis. Is there such a thing as too much > cleaning? ;) Watch out for old tapes that are losing their oxide. They can really make a mess of the heads, which can be a &^%@# pain to clean off. > > What other tips and tricks should I know? For example, should I > always unload > and store the tapes in their carriers immediately after I'm done > using the drives, > or can I safely leave them loaded for an extended period (oxidization? > de/magnetization? > deterioration?). They definitively look cooler with tapes loaded :) > Leaving the tapes mounted means that there is always tension on the tape, which may cause it to stretch. If you leave the tapes mounted (under tension), the drive will probably be a major source of noise (vacuum/fans running), and the filters will fill with dust. If the reels are open to the world, expect dust to collect on the tape over time, unless your system is in a clean-room. One reason for the 'tape-wrap' or cannisters is to protect the tape from dust. You can pick a "scratch" tape to leave on the drive (on that you don't expect to actually use for anything) if you just want the look, but I wouldn't leave a favorite tape on there for too long. > Thanks, > > Ken C. > From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Dec 9 12:15:56 2003 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3FD6115C.3070507@frixxon.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: [Quoting headers from one of Tony's emails] > Content-Type: text > > Moreover, they have no attachments, no hooks for attachments, and > nothing other than correct ASCII headers and plain ASCII text (as, > indeed, the headers indicate). This header is invalid according to RFC 2045, because it should contain a type and subtype (in this case, it should be text/plain). -- Paul From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Dec 9 11:01:21 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <001301c3be11$01a44490$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001301c3be11$01a44490$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: I have some old programs from my HP2000 days that I downloaded to APPLE-2 diskette (DOS 3.3 and PRODOS). Any ideas on the easiest way to get that source uploaded to a network connected system which should then be able to easily paste them into a terminal session and get the code active again? I have an APPLE //c, a II+ and a IIE. I appreciate any ideas on this one. thanks! -Bob bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 9 12:34:28 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: <001301c3be11$01a44490$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3FD615B4.1030309@atarimuseum.com> Bob, Hook up a null modem cable between your Apple's and a PC and simply upload them using some terminal programs to the PC. Curt Bob Brown wrote: > I have some old programs from my HP2000 days that I downloaded to > APPLE-2 diskette (DOS 3.3 and PRODOS). > > Any ideas on the easiest way to get that source uploaded to a network > connected system which should then be able to easily > paste them into a terminal session and get the code active again? > > I have an APPLE //c, a II+ and a IIE. I appreciate any ideas on this > one. > > thanks! > > -Bob > bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 9 12:53:26 2003 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: 5 1/4" disk drives, 1/4" tape drives and media Message-ID: <3FD61A26.E6163A17@msm.umr.edu> A friend is shutting down a business and has a quantity of hardware available. His schedule for getting rid of this is by 12/31/2003, so do not respond to this after that time (like in 7/2004 at least) as he will probably be successful in getting rid of stuff. modems, disk drives, tape drives, all sorts of cards. the disk drives are up to 1gb and may be of use in older minis as well as older PC's. The tape drives are the same. He also has a large amount of printer supplies and documentation available (Al K?) Please email: harold@crsinc-pa.com or call: 215 674 1399 CRS incorporated. ask for harold, he can tell you what he has and what he wants for it. If you are in the eastern pennsylvania area, you might go get larger amounts. Thanks Jim From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Dec 9 13:22:18 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <3FD6115C.3070507@frixxon.co.uk> (Paul Williams's message of "Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:15:56 +0000") References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3FD6115C.3070507@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200312091922.hB9JMIxY042803@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Paul Williams wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > [Quoting headers from one of Tony's emails] > >> Content-Type: text >> Moreover, they have no attachments, no hooks for attachments, and >> nothing other than correct ASCII headers and plain ASCII text (as, >> indeed, the headers indicate). > > This header is invalid according to RFC 2045, because it should > contain a type and subtype (in this case, it should be text/plain). Please read section 4 of RFC 2045, then try to find the "MIME-Version:" header in Tony's messages, then you may understand that Tony's mailer isn't sending MIME messages. There is some language in that section that permits software to interpret non-MIME messages "according to local conventions", but if it tries to treat non-MIME messages according to the MIME standards and loses, then I'm free to consider it broken, and I do! Obcctalk: RFC 1049 -Frank McConnell From vcf at siconic.com Tue Dec 9 13:57:09 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > I have some old programs from my HP2000 days that I downloaded to > APPLE-2 diskette (DOS 3.3 and PRODOS). > > Any ideas on the easiest way to get that source uploaded to a network > connected system which should then be able to easily > paste them into a terminal session and get the code active again? > > I have an APPLE //c, a II+ and a IIE. I appreciate any ideas on this one. Serial to serial, or over a modem. I have spare Super Serial Cards if you need one. Let me know... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Dec 9 14:09:49 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: AppleBus Developer's Handbook Message-ID: Has anyone heard of, or have, the AppleBus Developer's Handbook? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Dec 9 14:38:02 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: ping Jay ? Message-ID: Jay, Are you alive? Return-receipt requested... --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Dec 9 15:33:17 2003 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: MacAddict special issue Message-ID: <005d01c3be9c$104f6480$110cdd40@66067007> For the Mac lovers on the list check out the Jan 2004 Special Collector's Edition of MacAddict for the write-up on the 20 years of Mac's. Starts on page 20 and goes to page 33 nice pic's and article. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Dec 9 16:00:45 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: DEC VT420 terminals on VCM Message-ID: I just listed 8 DEC VT420 terminals on the Vintage Computer Marketplace. I'm asking a mere $5 each plus shipping. They are in anywhere from good to excellent condition. Some have slight burn in. They will be sold off in the order of best to worst, first come first served. Items #300, 302-308. I also listed another Sharp PC-5000 (new in the box). See item #301. Go get 'em! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Dec 9 16:22:07 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: DEC VT420 terminals on VCM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD64B0F.3060308@atarimuseum.com> Sellam, Know anyone with a Dec VT100 in very clean working condition??? I would like to have one hooked up to my system for nostalgia's sake. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I just listed 8 DEC VT420 terminals on the Vintage Computer Marketplace. >I'm asking a mere $5 each plus shipping. They are in anywhere from good >to excellent condition. Some have slight burn in. They will be sold off >in the order of best to worst, first come first served. Items #300, >302-308. > >I also listed another Sharp PC-5000 (new in the box). See item #301. > >Go get 'em! > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 9 16:32:47 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: Paul Williams "Re: Virus Distribution via this group" (Dec 9, 18:15) References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3FD6115C.3070507@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <10312092232.ZM15409@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 9, 18:15, Paul Williams wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > [Quoting headers from one of Tony's emails] > > > Content-Type: text > > > > Moreover, they have no attachments, no hooks for attachments, and > > nothing other than correct ASCII headers and plain ASCII text (as, > > indeed, the headers indicate). > > This header is invalid according to RFC 2045, because it should contain > a type and subtype (in this case, it should be text/plain). True, it should contain a subtype. On the other hand, the header is only required if the mail uses MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions). RFC2045 allows *extensions* -- but does not require them. RFC822 is authoritative for plain-text messages, and that header simply shouldn't be there at all. It shouldn't appear without the rest of the MIME stuff, anyway. I guess ELM is based on an out-of-date (not-quite-)standard (RFC1049), though even then that header is illegal according to RFC1049. Not, however, an excuse for some broken software to consider plain text to be a virus. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 9 16:37:40 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: Frank McConnell "Re: Virus Distribution via this group" (Dec 9, 11:22) References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3FD6115C.3070507@frixxon.co.uk> <200312091922.hB9JMIxY042803@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <10312092237.ZM15412@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 9, 11:22, Frank McConnell wrote: > Paul Williams wrote: > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > [Quoting headers from one of Tony's emails] > > > >> Content-Type: text > >> Moreover, they have no attachments, no hooks for attachments, and > >> nothing other than correct ASCII headers and plain ASCII text (as, > >> indeed, the headers indicate). > > > > This header is invalid according to RFC 2045, because it should > > contain a type and subtype (in this case, it should be text/plain). > > Please read section 4 of RFC 2045, then try to find the > "MIME-Version:" header in Tony's messages, then you may understand > that Tony's mailer isn't sending MIME messages. There is some > language in that section that permits software to interpret non-MIME > messages "according to local conventions", but if it tries to treat > non-MIME messages according to the MIME standards and loses, then I'm > free to consider it broken, and I do! So do I -- "be generous in what you accept and strict in what you create" or similar words. On the other hand, RFC1049 doesn't allow the "Content-type:" that Tony's mail contains, nor does RFC822, and as you imply, Tony's mail isn't MIME-compliant -- so it's broken too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Dec 9 17:39:49 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <10312092237.ZM15412@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> (Pete Turnbull's message of "Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:37:40 GMT") References: <200312071338.hB7DcgiU006125@huey.classiccmp.org> <004401c3be1e$ca6e04d0$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> <10312090904.ZM14947@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3FD6115C.3070507@frixxon.co.uk> <200312091922.hB9JMIxY042803@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <10312092237.ZM15412@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200312092339.hB9NdnAV047683@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > So do I -- "be generous in what you accept and strict in what you > create" or similar words. On the other hand, RFC1049 doesn't allow the > "Content-type:" that Tony's mail contains, nor does RFC822, and as you > imply, Tony's mail isn't MIME-compliant -- so it's broken too. Content-type: was something of a mess for a while; I remember the RFC 822 extensions group going round on it for a while on the way to hashing out what became MIME. (plays with google a bit) Ah good, someone kept the ietf-822 mailing list traffic from the early 1990s. for an example. I gather from that that there was an RFC draft in the early 1990s in which "Content-type: text" was permitted, and that by that time it was considered ambiguous. -Frank McConnell From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 9 18:38:33 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: <1070935858.2633.335.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "TomJennings" at Dec 8, 3 06:10:58 pm Message-ID: <4658.4.20.168.222.1071016713.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I would dispute that. It's 2Mbytes for one cylinder or thereabouts (128K > per trask, 16 heads). I don't know how many cylinders was the maximum on > ST506 drives, but certainly 1024 cylinder drives exist (and I think > getting on for double that...). Let's say 1024 cylinders. The ST-506 interface doesn't impose any upper limit to the cylinder count, but AFAIK, the maximum cylinder count of any real drive with that interface was 1224, in the Maxtor XT2000 series drives (and a few clones). > Thats 2 gigabytes of data for the emulated disk image. > Now, 2 Gigabytes is a lot of RAM (at least to me). I'm joining this discussion late, but why would an emulator keep more than two cylinder's worth of data in RAM at any given time? Two cylinders will only require 4 MB of RAM, which seems entirely reasonable. > Considering the emulator RAM (at least for the cylinder currently being > accessed) really needs to be fast-ish static RAM, gettign 2 GB of that > is going to be unworkable... If the RAM is organized 8 bits wide, the cycle time doesn't need to be faster than 200 ns (assuming 25 ns sampling). That's not particularly fast. For a commercial design, it would probably make sense to use SDRAM, and the slowest grade of SDRAM would be adequate. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 9 19:00:42 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <4658.4.20.168.222.1071016713.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <1070935858.2633.335.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from"TomJennings" at Dec 8, 3 06:10:58 pm <4658.4.20.168.222.1071016713.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4749.4.20.168.222.1071018042.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > If the RAM is organized 8 bits wide, the cycle time doesn't need to be > faster than 200 ns (assuming 25 ns sampling). That's not particularly > fast. I should clarify that I'm assuming that the host uses buffered seek and properly uses the -SEEK COMPLETE signal from the drive. If the drive does not use buffered seek, it is necessary to transfer a new cylinder's data into the buffer RAM in less than the seek time. As far as I know, the highest capacity 5.25-inch Winchester drives that did not use buffered seek had no more than four heads, 615 cylinders, and no less than 20 ms seek time, so the maximum transfer rate needed to transfer data to and from the backing disk is about 33 MB/s. This would require RAM with a 30 ns cycle time. More practically, the buffer RAM could have a x16 or x32 organization, stretching the cycle time requirement to 60 ns or 120 ns. I think a disk emulator would still be a useful product if it ONLY supported emulation of drives with buffered seek capability. Perhaps a different model could be used for drives without buffered seek; such a model might simply buffer the entire drive contents (about 205 MB). Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 9 17:34:24 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: bbc master 128 plus 512 board + 2 disk drives In-Reply-To: <002601c3be09$f4761bb0$0100a8c0@davidwzg1mpxp9> from "david constable" at Dec 9, 3 02:07:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031209/aa78a9cd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 9 18:58:10 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <10312092237.ZM15412@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 9, 3 10:37:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 953 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031210/11f58ca9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 9 18:43:24 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Dec 9, 3 07:23:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3738 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031210/180f82fc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 9 19:07:31 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:45 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <4658.4.20.168.222.1071016713.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 9, 3 04:38:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2129 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031210/fd2726e7/attachment.ksh From jdickens at ameritech.net Tue Dec 9 19:40:33 2003 From: jdickens at ameritech.net (James Dickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <4749.4.20.168.222.1071018042.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <1070935858.2633.335.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> <4658.4.20.168.222.1071016713.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4749.4.20.168.222.1071018042.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200312091940.34892.jdickens@ameritech.net> On Tuesday 09 December 2003 19:00, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > > If the RAM is organized 8 bits wide, the cycle time doesn't need to be > > faster than 200 ns (assuming 25 ns sampling). That's not particularly > > fast. > > I should clarify that I'm assuming that the host uses buffered seek > and properly uses the -SEEK COMPLETE signal from the drive. > > If the drive does not use buffered seek, it is necessary to transfer > a new cylinder's data into the buffer RAM in less than the seek time. > As far as I know, the highest capacity 5.25-inch Winchester drives that > did not use buffered seek had no more than four heads, 615 cylinders, > and no less than 20 ms seek time, so the maximum transfer rate needed > to transfer data to and from the backing disk is about 33 MB/s. This > would require RAM with a 30 ns cycle time. More practically, the > buffer RAM could have a x16 or x32 organization, stretching the > cycle time requirement to 60 ns or 120 ns. okay not an expert, but most systems using these drives used interleaving of sectors(because there was no way the system was fast enough to handle the data), the IBM PC used a factor of 6. The machine the device would not know what to do with 30MB/s of data if you produce it. i doubt any machine having such a drive would benefit from more than 4MB/s and producing data faster than the machine expects can cause timing errors, that were not noticed when the machine was new. i guess after the device is made.. yo u will have to spend more time slowing it down than trying to get it faster. > > I think a disk emulator would still be a useful product if it ONLY > supported emulation of drives with buffered seek capability. Perhaps > a different model could be used for drives without buffered seek; such > a model might simply buffer the entire drive contents (about 205 MB). > > Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 9 19:48:23 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: <10312071116.ZM12296@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10312071116.ZM12296@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1031.4.20.168.222.1071020903.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > If you want to use tsbdecode (to list BASIC programs), ask Eric if you > can have the updated version (tsbdecode is a work-in-progress, and I > recently sent him an update which takes it a bit further towards its > goal). Release 0.4 with Pete's fixes is now available: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tsbutils/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 9 20:03:54 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 10, 3 00:58:10 am" Message-ID: <200312100203.SAA13764@floodgap.com> > > So do I -- "be generous in what you accept and strict in what you > > create" or similar words. On the other hand, RFC1049 doesn't allow the > > "Content-type:" that Tony's mail contains, nor does RFC822, and as you > > imply, Tony's mail isn't MIME-compliant -- so it's broken too. > So what do you want me to change? Should it be text/plain? Or should I > remove that header line altogether (I am not going to totally upgrade my > mail software!). Or should I just stop posting here? Probably should be text/plain. I note that you're using vanilla Elm (I'm using the ME+ branch myself). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce -------- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 9 20:03:45 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: <1070677807.9783.250.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> from "TomJennings" at Dec 5, 3 06:30:07 pm Message-ID: <1129.4.20.168.222.1071021825.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Then there's the issue of writing out the last cylinder before > power-down. If there's no seek from said cylinder, then how will the > interfacee know it has time to write it? I don't know if the recent disk drives still do it the same way, but at one time some 5.25-inch winchester drives used the spindle motor as a generator to provide power to write any dirty buffers to the media when power was lost. This won't work if much seeking is involved, so they have a dedicated area of the media to store the buffers near the head landing zone. On power-up, they read the buffer area, write any dirty buffers back to the correct locations, and write a "clean" flag to the buffer area. Obviously this won't solve the power fail problem for the proposed drive emulator, but it should be reasonable to have battery backup for the buffer memory (two cylinders' worth). Assuming the use of modern circuitry, everything in the disk emulator other than the buffers for the actual ST-506 interface signals should run on 3.3V or less. So another possibility is to detect 5V fail, and write the dirty buffers to flash before the 3.3V drops too low. It shouldn't take an unreasonably sized electrolytic capacitor on the 3.3V rail to provide enough time for this. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 9 20:03:56 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312091940.34892.jdickens@ameritech.net> from "James Dickens" at Dec 9, 3 07:40:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1316 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20031210/3703d231/attachment.ksh From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Dec 9 20:28:08 2003 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: <1031.4.20.168.222.1071020903.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <7E0DE394-2AB8-11D8-BFCF-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> On Tuesday, December 9, 2003, at 07:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> If you want to use tsbdecode (to list BASIC programs), ask Eric if you >> can have the updated version (tsbdecode is a work-in-progress, and I >> recently sent him an update which takes it a bit further towards its >> goal). > > Release 0.4 with Pete's fixes is now available: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tsbutils/ Somewhere, once upon a time, I found on the net an HPBasic interpreter either for windows or for DOS... I don't know where it was though. Shareware / Freeware I think. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > This message was scanned by GatewayDefender > 12/9/2003 - 8:52:04 PM > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 9 20:30:05 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312091940.34892.jdickens@ameritech.net> References: <1070935858.2633.335.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu><4658.4.20.168.222.1071016713.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com><4749.4.20.168.222.1071018042.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200312091940.34892.jdickens@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <1188.4.20.168.222.1071023405.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> If the drive does not use buffered seek, it is necessary to transfer >> a new cylinder's data into the buffer RAM in less than the seek time. >> As far as I know, the highest capacity 5.25-inch Winchester drives that >> did not use buffered seek had no more than four heads, 615 cylinders, >> and no less than 20 ms seek time, so the maximum transfer rate needed >> to transfer data to and from the backing disk is about 33 MB/s. This >> would require RAM with a 30 ns cycle time. More practically, the >> buffer RAM could have a x16 or x32 organization, stretching the >> cycle time requirement to 60 ns or 120 ns. "James Dickens" wrote: > okay not an expert, but most systems using these drives used interleaving > of > sectors(because there was no way the system was fast enough to handle the > data), the IBM PC used a factor of 6. Interleaving by the host is completely irrelevant to the disk emulator, which doesn't even have a concept of "sectors". To the disk emulator, a track is just a big collection of samples of the data line, which don't even have a 1:1 correspondence with host data bits (or even host channel code bits). > The machine the device would not > know > what to do with 30MB/s of data if you produce it. The 33 MB/s I quoted was the necessary transfer rate between the buffer memory and the drive *inside* the disk emulator. It has nothing to do with the host computer. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Dec 9 20:46:37 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > I have been thinking about this a lot...) > > > But you really dont need 2G bytes of RAM... suitably encoded (instead of using > > a wasteful bit stream, record and play back the delta-time between transitions > > Alas it's not as simple as that! > > There were 2 suggestions -- firstly to record the time of each > transisition as a 20 bit number (i.e. would would be the RAM address in > the simple scheme). The other is to record the time since the last > transisiton, presumably as fewer bits. > > The second uses less memory _but_ suppose we use 8 bits for each time > value. What happens if there's no transition for 256 sample times? I > think that could happn at the end of a track if you're unlucky. A simple RLL scheme could be used to encode longer times perhaps intersector gaps or what not (say if we use a count of 4 bits, count value 15 means continue the transition delay with the next nibble) > > But both schemes have another, more serious, problem. It's hard to change > part of the data. You need to be able to re-write part of the track -- in > particular a single sector. This is trivial on the 'record-the-bitstream' > method. It's a lot harder if you're recording time values. It's not clear > just which time values you're replacing (remember this has to be worked > out in real time at abou 50-80MHz). What do you do if you replace a > sector with one with more transitions? You have to shuffle all the data > in the emulaotr's RAM down to make space for the extra transition time > codes -- again in real time. Yes thats an issue with _any_ compression scheme, a linked list might do it though. Remember the the delta T values are not at your 50-80 MHz, only 10 MHz max. This means that 32 bit memory data rates would be in the 2 Mhz region... > > Now, it may well be possible to compress the data in the emulator's main > memory, or on the modern hard disk, and decompress it before writing it > to the bitstream buffer. However, it's not clear how much compression > will be possible (it's obvious that, in general, not all data can be > compressed -- there are 2^n possible blocks of n bits, and you can't > replace each one with a different block of m bits (there are 2^m such > blocks) if m the emulator box to do compression and decompression 'on the fly' during > cylinder changes. Probably possible... If you just compress your bitstream, a high compression rate is possible, at least downto close to the original data content of the controllers data stream (~8.5 kbytes per track?) > > > a $15 FPGA and a $15 Sync SRAM is just about all thats needed + the hardware > > If I had a pound for each time I've been told 'it can be done with an > FPGA' then I wouldn't be worring about designing a disk emulator. Simply > because I'd have a complete hard disk _factory_ of my own. > > Of course it can be done with an FPGA, but now is not the time to say > that. Rather, you should be thinking about how to actually design the > thing (which, BTW, I am doing), and only later worry about building it. An FPGA implementation would be cheaper, easier to do, more flexible, easier to debug (either with simulation or building debugging hardware into the FPGA), buildable into the future, have higher performance and be more reliable than a design made with bits-and pieces... > > I would not use an FPGA, though. There are several reasons for this, not > the least of which is that debugging the design is hard. I don't trust > simulators, and won't until I find one that gets all of my 'test cases' > right (most get them all wrong!. Anyway, the FPGA simuation software I > battled with couldn't even handle memory devices linked up to the FPGA, > let alone simulating a hard disk controller's bitstream as well... No, > I'd rather buiild the darn thing using standard ICs and debug it with the > logic analyser. When the design is solid, then you can consider turning > it into nn FPGA. I have not had that much trouble with simulators, plus if there are free I/O bits, its easy enough to built some temporary test scafolding into the FPGA. I dont think I would like to try getting a 50-80 MHz wire wrapped system working these days (even finding the DIP parts would be hard) > > Even then, it may not be a good idea. I've learnt the hard way that if > you want a hobbyist to copy your design, you avoid programmed parts, no > matter how simple they are to program (even PICs...) And you certainly > don't get involved in providing ready-programmed parts unless you like > providing free replacements to idiots who connect the power lines > backwards... But the FPGA is not a programmed part... only the downloaded bitsream contains the "program" I dont worry too much about the inexpensive serial EEPROM that stores the bitstream - they are easy to program (with nothing more than a parallel port) and cost less than $1.50... > > Then there's the issue that FPGA chips change -- all too often. The new > ones are claimed to be compatible (but 'better than the old ones'), but > I've been bitten. Admittedly I was trying to push the device to its > limits, but IIRC we had to hunt around for the old devices to have a > hope of the final design working in time.... I guess I would rather port a design to a new FPGA than have to do a complete re-design because some particular chip becomes unavailable > > -tony > Peter Wallace From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 9 21:00:32 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. The controller shifts the pulses on write to compensate for the peak shifts that happen on magnetic media when flux changes are recorded close together. If the emulated drive does not emulate the peak shift, the read data timing will be further from the nominal timings that that the controller expects. This will affect the controller's data separator PLL. I'm guessing that it won't be enough to cause reads to fail MOST of the time, but it will reduce the timing margins enough to that it could potentially cause occasional soft errors. From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Dec 9 21:16:54 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is > whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. The > controller shifts the pulses on write to compensate for the peak > shifts that happen on magnetic media when flux changes are recorded > close together. Is it not true that the precomp circuits are driven by head position info - thus the 'solid' version (emulation) of any drive would just be permanently 'stuck' in one mode or the other would the controller care, or even know, what track and cylinder the actual 'data' were coming from? I don't know if this would cause the emulator qua emulator to fail at some perhaps subjective level - but I can't see where one would need to actually legislate write precomp into a block of RAM. Cheers and Best of the Season John From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 9 21:22:25 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: ping Jay ? References: Message-ID: <002301c3becc$d51ded60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> yup, I'm alive... barely. Works been hectic lately... and from my posts last night you'll see I was up very late :) Tonight is recovery night.... going to bed NOW. J ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:38 PM Subject: ping Jay ? > Jay, > > Are you alive? Return-receipt requested... > > --f > > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ > Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Dec 9 22:45:45 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is > whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. The > controller shifts the pulses on write to compensate for the peak > shifts that happen on magnetic media when flux changes are recorded > close together. If the emulated drive does not emulate the peak shift, > the read data timing will be further from the nominal timings that that > the controller expects. This will affect the controller's data > separator PLL. I'm guessing that it won't be enough to cause > reads to fail MOST of the time, but it will reduce the timing margins > enough to that it could potentially cause occasional soft errors. > Right, one option would be for the emulator to have a FM, MFM or RLL front end and actually decode the bitstream. Then the write-precomp could be undone... Peter Wallace From donm at cts.com Tue Dec 9 23:35:28 2003 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <200312100203.SAA13764@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > So do I -- "be generous in what you accept and strict in what you > > > create" or similar words. On the other hand, RFC1049 doesn't allow the > > > "Content-type:" that Tony's mail contains, nor does RFC822, and as you > > > imply, Tony's mail isn't MIME-compliant -- so it's broken too. > > > So what do you want me to change? Should it be text/plain? Or should I > > remove that header line altogether (I am not going to totally upgrade my > > mail software!). Or should I just stop posting here? > > Probably should be text/plain. I note that you're using vanilla Elm (I'm > using the ME+ branch myself). ...and I, in turn, have been using pine for a number of years without becoming aware of any similar reception problems. I have had folks comment on a missing attachment, but only when I forgot to attach it :( - don > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce -------- > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Dec 10 00:22:10 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Looking for Compaq LTE 386 Message-ID: Has anyone got a Compaq LTE 386 that they'd be willing to part with? If so, please contact me. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Tue Dec 9 21:25:55 2003 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: HP Apollo DN5500 Disk and sysboot References: <200312081800.hB8I02iV013570@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3FD69243.F6F81118@worldnet.att.net> > --------------- > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:16:05 +0100 > From: "Aro Hirohi" > Subject: HP Apollo DN5500 disk and sysboot > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I am trying to salvage a nice Apollo DN5500 server. Unfortunately I had to swap the original Maxtor ESDI 760 HD - it makes a clunky noise - for a lower capacity Micropolis and I have some difficulties to reinstall DomainOS software. > The system starts under service mode. It can read a bootable tape and install the mini DomainOS software but it cannot boot DomainOS directly from the hard disk ... it dies with an "Error: sysboot not found" > > What I've done ... > in service mode, with a 10.3.4 boot tape inserted, > > re > > di c > > ex config, ex calendar, ex invol ... to enter the new hd configuration, setup date/time and format hd then ... > > ex domain_os ... does a lot of shoeshinning, copy base OS from tape to hd and says that sysboot is found and skipped ... > ) go ... goes to HP logo and login or ) sh runs a text shell ... I was delighted ... but now if I shutdown and reboot the system in normal mode, it passes the tests ok but fails to start the base OS complaining about "sysboot not found". Same result in service mode if I do a > re and > ex domain_os. > Considering that it boots fine from a tape, I assume that the sysboot is not a eprom program and that it has been erased by formatting the drive. Does anybody know how to install the sysboot. Does it have anything to do with the 40KB file copied from the tape to //nodeXXX/sysboot on the hard disk? > > Kind regards, > > Aro > > Hi, Aro Did you set up the bad spot list inside Invol ??? Is the drive a listed size drive 170, 380 or 760 meg ?? The "System boot" is the code that gets you from the Rom monitor to the System OS. You should be able to enter "ld" at the monitor prompt and the system will list the machine dependent boot files (not system boot). The "system boot" is installed when the drive is involed. It is also checked when the OS is loaded. That's why you get the message that it was found and is being skipped. If the monitor can't find any system files do a "di w" and try again. I still have a Apollo ring here with a working AA install area. if you get in a jam contact me by email. The tapes are not reliable in age and can have fatal errors if used a lot. Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Dec 10 00:35:32 2003 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: up late and working (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <001301c3be11$01a44490$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000901c3bee7$d337acf0$b03fcd18@Wayne> Hey, Jay. I seem to be double-subscribed since I changed e-mail addresses. My new address is wayne.smith@charter.net (I killed the old account) but for some reason I am getting two copies of every post. Is it best for me to unsubscribe once, or can you help me out on this. Thanks. -W > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:58 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: up late and working (classiccmp related) > > > Since the wife is out of town, it's a good night to stay up > late and work on things classic computer related. I reached a > milestone, so thought I'd share > :) > > I now have two HP 7906 drives working flawlessly. 5 more to > go. But instead of working on the others, right now I'm going > through and running diags on each board in the 13037 > controller... meaning of all the 7 or 8 13037 boxes I have, > testing each card one at a time in a known working 13037. > What fun. Very time consuming, but, when I go to work on the > next drive, I can at least know any problems I run into are > the drive rather than the controller. I'm also testing all > the cards in the drive one at a time with cards from the > other drives. Life is much better when you have two of an > item to use as a testbed. > > I do have a 7905 as well... that one will probably wind up on > the trading block - after I check it out and make sure it > works. Anyone want a 7912? Heavy beast, and HPIB only so I > have no interest in it. > > I think I'm going to go back and change my HP2000 Access > system rack configuration. Move the paper tape reader and > paper tape punch to the other side of the dual bay rack, and > mount a 7906 in the spot where they were. Masochistic I tell ya. > > Well, this is all a milestone for ME at least, because I've > always been somewhat "afraid" of working on 14" hard drives. > But I think I'm getting the hang of it :) Well, diags just > finished on the ECC board, time for the next card. > > Cheers > > Jay > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 02:15:36 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Virus Distribution via this group" (Dec 10, 0:58) References: Message-ID: <10312100815.ZM15803@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 10, 0:58, Tony Duell wrote: > So what do you want me to change? Should it be text/plain? Or should I > remove that header line altogether (I am not going to totally upgrade my > mail software!). Or should I just stop posting here? It wasn't a rant, Tony, just an observation :-) If you want to do something about it, and it's easy to do, I'd remove that header altogether. It's not valid unless you put the rest of the MIME headers in as well. Of course, one could also argue that whatever is misinterpreting the email in question is also broken, and should be fixed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bkotaska at charter.net Tue Dec 9 20:51:45 2003 From: bkotaska at charter.net (Bill Kotaska) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: HP-85 Rom Emulator Message-ID: <003401c3bec8$8cc58f40$0200a8c0@ath700> I'm working on a ROM emulator for the HP-85 - i.e. a replica of the original (and hard to find) Programmable ROM Module. From photos (thanks to Vassilis Prevelakis), I've drawn a schematic of most of the original module. But I've hit a snag where some of the traces disappear under the ICs. I've been able to deduce most of these but some are too ambiguous to "pin" down. Is there someone who owns this elusive module that would be willing to ring some paths for me (probably 10 to 20) ? Some connections may be obvious simply with a closer visual inspection of the actual module. Thanks, Bill From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 04:02:40 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: <000701c3be71$c3209460$2201a8c0@finans> References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> <000701c3be71$c3209460$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <22630000.1071050560@libcat1.york.ac.uk> --On Tuesday, December 09, 2003 17:30:30 +0100 Nico de Jong wrote: > On the longer term, tapes must be rewritten every 2nd or 3rd year, in > order to avoid crosstalk between the layers. > Now let's see who disagrees with me .... Not disagreeing with most of it, though I was taught only that it was necessary to wind and rewind tapes every few years to avoid the crosstalk -- the layers end up with slightly different parts next to each other, so it wasn't necessary to rewrite them. I've never rewritten tapes, and I have distribution tapes that haven't been rewritten in 20 years, but read fine. YMMV. -- Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 10 05:08:46 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <10312100815.ZM15803@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10312100815.ZM15803@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1071053788.8380.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 08:15, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Of course, one could also argue that whatever is misinterpreting the > email in question is also broken, and should be fixed. Well I'd say yes. It would appear that the software in question isn't doing any kind of analysis on the actual content of the messages at all (otherwise some - probably most / all - would get through and a few might be flagged as potential threats due to certain binary patterns in the text) That seems a little over-cautious of the software to me, given that the messages are presumably arriving as plain text and not as an attachment. Unless of course the affected people are using email software that blindly tries to run anything that looks like it has some kind of macro embedded in it :) If a sensible email client is being used one would hope that it is an option in the virus software than can be turned off. Whether questionable headers mean that the emails should be flagged as potential spam is another matter... :-) The world seems to have become a complex place... I miss the days of command-line mail clients, and if you really wanted to send an attachment it was a case of encoding it yourself and relying on the recipient knowing how to decode it... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 10 05:37:16 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071055501.8380.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 01:07, Tony Duell wrote: > It was suggested that the emulator should contain enough RAM to buffer > the entire disk image, That does seem a little over the top to me. Ditto with suggestions for various ways of condensing the data stream - if the buffer just needs to be a couple of MB, then that seems fine - 2MB of fast RAM would not be unreasonable. > which would be loaded and saved to a PC using a > (bletch!) USB link. I would still rather have a stand-alone unit that > would fit inside the classic computer in place of the original drive. I'm with Tony on the USB side of things :-) The maximum cable length between drive and controller as Tony mentioned the other day is an issue though, and one I'd mean to ask about a little while ago. I'd assumed the average length of 10" or so was more due to physical constraits than electrical ones, but maybe not (I believe IDE has a limit of about 12", no?) That does imply that *something* needs to be inside the classic chassis due to electrical restrictions. That in turn seems to imply that the whole lot - in an ideal world - needs to fit in a 5.25" half-height bay; interface electronics and modern drive replacement. Of course most classics would have more space than this though, but I'd suggest that for a final interface things at least fit in a 5.25" bay for convenience of mounting, even if the replacement drive has to lurk somewhere else. I just had a rethink on my networking suggestion. My main two reasons for wanting the drive 'images' on a central machine were a) to avoid wasting drive space, b) to avoid unnecessary cost, and c) to make backup easier. Having one drive per classic doesn't help a) at all, but reliable drives in the order of 1GB or so can be found for free and are likely to keep running for a good few years yet (at which point I can switch to whatever capacity is then the freebie of the day. So b) becomes irrelevant (I'd still much rather use SCSI drives as that's what I have spares of - I don't keep IDE drives lying around) Point c) about backup can be rethought. All the interface needs is *some* way of getting data out of it (and back into it, presumably :) It doesn't matter what that method is, nor really how fast it is. Providing I can back up the contents of the drive easily, and swap in other drive images, I'd be happy. If it takes a day for a backup to run I don't really care that much (which does open up the possibility of running that portion of things over a standard serial link) Ultimate goal would be to keep this simple *and* low cost, preferably using parts that people might have lying around in the workshop, or can at least obtain easily. cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 10 06:07:30 2003 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> Message-ID: <3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca> I recently received a Hewlett-Packard 7970A 9-track drive (circa 1971) which had been stored for years (perhaps decades) with tape reels mounted. The reels could not be removed from the hubs. It turned out the rubber compression ring on each hub (which is compressed outwards into the tape reel to hold the reel onto the hub) had sealed itself to the reel as a result of being left in the compressed state. The reels were sealed on well enough that pulling or prying them off was going to break the plastic reels. The hubs had to be dismantled to get access to the compression ring to break the seal. (Not too difficult on these units once you know how to do it, but in the absence of manuals I had to dismantle it to find out how I *should have* dismantled it :/ ) On a similar note, can someone comment on the long-term prognosis of 9-track tape? Is it still being manufactured or is everyone that still uses it relying on new-old-stock? Is the oxide coating stable if stored at the proper temp./humidity or does it turn flaky/icky after a few years regardless? (The tape that was left on this machine, once unwound a little ways, sticks to itself slightly and as it goes through the drive an oxide goo starts to build up which causes the tape to bind and chatter. Granted this may all be a result of the environment the unit was stored in (an airplane hanger I believe). ) -------------------- http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 10 06:08:11 2003 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 systems available Message-ID: <3FD70CAE.56DD613@cs.ubc.ca> A friend who manages some communications systems expects to be decommissioning 3 or 4 PDP 11/84 systems soon (~ end of 2003). These systems have been functioning for approaching-two-decades in a (presumably) good environment. Sorry to be a little vague on details (I'm recalling this from a quick verbal discussion) but each system is something like: PDP 11/84 CPU RL02 removable-platter disc drive MD17 / MD175 fixed disc (?) tape drive (9-track I believe, but that seems a little odd, like it would more likely be those mid-80s DEC cartridges) other I/O interfaces presumably I don't know what OS they were running/installed with. Email me and I'll try to get clarifications if desired. I know these aren't the most desirable units of the PDP 11 family (too young and no blinkenlights) (poor not-so-little things), but any takers for adoption? Any bits or modules to be rescued for someone? Location is Vancouver, B.C., Canada. Price is take-it-away-it's-yours (unless we can twist your arm into making a donation to the radio museum with which we are associated). (Smaller bits I will consider doing for the price of shipping.) -------------------- http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 10 06:31:10 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071058735.8379.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 00:58, Tony Duell wrote: > So what do you want me to change? Should it be text/plain? Or should I > remove that header line altogether (I am not going to totally upgrade my > mail software!). Or should I just stop posting here? Don't know, don't know, don't know, and no. :-) cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 06:23:52 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <630000.1071059032@libcat1.york.ac.uk> --On Tuesday, December 09, 2003 20:45:45 -0800 "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > > > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me > > is whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. [...] > > I'm guessing that it won't be > > enough to cause reads to fail MOST of the time, but it will reduce > > the timing margins enough to that it could potentially cause > > occasional soft errors. > > Right, one option would be for the emulator to have a FM, MFM or RLL > front end and actually decode the bitstream. Then the write-precomp > could be undone... But then you need to know what the bitstream is, which goes against what we've been saying. And what about different encoding methods: what happens when someone wants to emulate a drive on a system you've not thought of? Actually, I don't think you need to know the encoding scheme at all. I believe the precomp (if/when applied) depends only on the sequence of transitions in the data. -- Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 06:23:48 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <0.1071059028@libcat1.york.ac.uk> --On Tuesday, December 09, 2003 22:16:54 -0500 John Lawson wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > > > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me > > is whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. > > The controller shifts the pulses on write to compensate for the peak > > shifts that happen on magnetic media when flux changes are recorded > > close together. > > Is it not true that the precomp circuits are driven by head position > info - thus the 'solid' version (emulation) of any drive would just be > permanently 'stuck' in one mode or the other would the controller > care, or even know, what track and cylinder the actual 'data' were > coming from? Some drives don't need the controller to do write precomp -- presumably it's done by the drive electronics. In such cases, you typically program the controller to apply precomp at a cylinder number equal to the number of cylinders the drive has. Some drives do need the precomp done, and then you program the controller to apply it to the data for every cylinder above a certain value, and it gets applied before the data reaches the drive interface. > I don't know if this would cause the emulator qua emulator to fail > at some perhaps subjective level - but I can't see where one would > need to actually legislate write precomp into a block of RAM. I think Eric's concern is that the emulator would receive write-precompensated data, record it verbatim, and play it back verbatim for a read. The precomp has the effect of shifting some of the data transitions by a fraction of a bit cell. This would result in the timing between some bits being wrong. There's no signal on an ST506/412 interface to tell that write-precomp is being applied, so the emulator won't know. My solution would be to program the emulator with the cylinder number (if any) above which to do the opposite bit shift, and undo it. I wouldn't try to decode the bitstream, only look at the sequence of bits in the same simplistic way a controller does when it turns on its internal EARLY/LATE signals. I think that you'd want to be able to program certain of the drive characteristics into the emulator anyway. Some controllers try to guess which "supported" drive is connected by doing things like seeing what happens if they select certain heads, step past a certain cylinder, etc. Therefore you'd possibly want to be able to tell the emulator to behave as if it had a certain number of heads and cylinders, -- Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Dec 10 06:52:51 2003 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> <3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <000e01c3bf1c$864f4f80$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" > On a similar note, can someone comment on the long-term prognosis of 9-track tape? Is it still being manufactured or is everyone that still uses it relying on new-old-stock? Is the oxide coating stable if stored at the proper temp./humidity or does it turn flaky/icky after a few years regardless? > > (The tape that was left on this machine, once unwound a little ways, sticks to itself slightly and as it goes through the drive an oxide goo starts to build up which causes the tape to bind and chatter. Granted this may all be a result of the environment the unit was stored in (an airplane hanger I believe). ) To the best of my knowledge, the fabrication of 1/2" tapes has seized. The last manufacturer was eMag, AFAIK. They are now even advertising a new service : recertification of old/used tapes. They are also largely out of stock now, with regard to new tapes. It is my experience, that tapes start to desintegrate after 15-20 years, even when stored properly. What you call "bind and chatter" is probably the thing called "stitching", i.e. 2 layers of tape glued together. Bill King has a solution for this, although it is very time consuming. He "bakes" the tapes, after which the tape can be read once (and only once). He did that for a customer of mine, who had a 20_25 year old tape he needed to read. Nico From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 07:10:54 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: <3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com> <3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <2850000.1071061854@libcat1.york.ac.uk> --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 04:07:30 -0800 Brent Hilpert wrote: > On a similar note, can someone comment on the long-term prognosis of > 9-track tape? Is it still being manufactured or is everyone that > still uses it relying on new-old-stock? Is the oxide coating stable > if stored at the proper temp./humidity or does it turn flaky/icky > after a few years regardless? I've got old BASF and Memorex tapes (20 years +) that are fine, but not all tapes are created equal. Was it Black Watch tape that was supposed to be wonderful, but which people found started to shed its oxide after a fairly short time? It probably also depends on how they were stored. -- Pete Turnbull Network Manager University of York, UK From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Dec 10 07:23:21 2003 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com><3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca> <2850000.1071061854@libcat1.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000b01c3bf20$c881bbf0$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Pete Turnbull" > --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 04:07:30 -0800 Brent Hilpert > wrote: > > > On a similar note, can someone comment on the long-term prognosis of > > 9-track tape? Is it still being manufactured or is everyone that > > still uses it relying on new-old-stock? Is the oxide coating stable > > if stored at the proper temp./humidity or does it turn flaky/icky > > after a few years regardless? > > I've got old BASF and Memorex tapes (20 years +) that are fine, but not > all tapes are created equal. Was it Black Watch tape that was supposed > to be wonderful, but which people found started to shed its oxide after > a fairly short time? > > It probably also depends on how they were stored. I agree with Pete. BASF and Memorex are normally fine. However, especially the last decennium or so, the number of tapemanufacturers was dwindling rapidly, and it became very common to buy tapes OEM, and relabel them. 3M also had some good tapes. Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Dec 10 09:21:15 2003 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com><3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca><2850000.1071061854@libcat1.york.ac.uk> <000b01c3bf20$c881bbf0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <000a01c3bf31$41038bc0$2201a8c0@finans> > > --On Wednesday, December 10, 2003 04:07:30 -0800 Brent Hilpert > > wrote: > > > > > On a similar note, can someone comment on the long-term prognosis of > > > 9-track tape? Is it still being manufactured or is everyone that > > > still uses it relying on new-old-stock? > > There is something else you might want to consider. Depending on density, tape length and block size, you might get maybe up to 80-90 megs on a tape. That aint much, but tape (and 3480 types) has a destinctive edge on types like DAT and Exabyte : if you encounter a read error, you can just skip the block (depending on the software used). If you miss a block on the more modern drives, you are simply lost, as it is almost impossible to re-synchronize the drive. I know that I am a "bit" biased, but my experience is that tapes many places are still the preferred choice for data exchange. Nico From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 10 09:47:50 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <630000.1071059032@libcat1.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Pete Turnbull wrote: > --On Tuesday, December 09, 2003 20:45:45 -0800 "Peter C. Wallace" > wrote: > > > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me > > > is whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. > [...] > > > I'm guessing that it won't be > > > enough to cause reads to fail MOST of the time, but it will reduce > > > the timing margins enough to that it could potentially cause > > > occasional soft errors. > > > > Right, one option would be for the emulator to have a FM, MFM or RLL > > front end and actually decode the bitstream. Then the write-precomp > > could be undone... > > But then you need to know what the bitstream is, which goes against > what we've been saying. And what about different encoding methods: > what happens when someone wants to emulate a drive on a system you've > not thought of? > > Actually, I don't think you need to know the encoding scheme at all. I > believe the precomp (if/when applied) depends only on the sequence of > transitions in the data. > > -- > Pete Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York, UK > Usually you know the encoding scheme, and I dont see anything wrong with using whatever knowledge you have of the interface to optimize it. If a different encoding scheme is used, an FPGA based design could easily adapt. But you're right, its probably possible to undo write-precomp by simulating the drives tendency to push close transitions apart. I do think some adjustments are needed per drive type... The write Precomp value is pretty small - in the order of 5-10 % of the data period. Peter Wallace From kth at srv.net Wed Dec 10 08:58:55 2003 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 systems available In-Reply-To: <3FD70CAE.56DD613@cs.ubc.ca> References: <3FD70CAE.56DD613@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3FD734AF.9040507@srv.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: >A friend who manages some communications systems expects to be decommissioning 3 or 4 PDP 11/84 systems soon (~ end of 2003). These systems have been functioning for approaching-two-decades in a (presumably) good environment. > >Sorry to be a little vague on details (I'm recalling this from a quick verbal discussion) but each system is something like: > PDP 11/84 CPU > RL02 removable-platter disc drive > MD17 / MD175 fixed disc (?) > tape drive (9-track I believe, but that seems a little odd, like it would more likely be those mid-80s DEC cartridges) > > Probably a TSV05. Fairly common on 11/8*'s. 9-track autoload drive, 1600bpi only. Could be just about anything else without a description. It may be a TK50 you are thinking of, or the nasty TK25. > other I/O interfaces presumably > >I don't know what OS they were running/installed with. Email me and I'll try to get clarifications if desired. > >I know these aren't the most desirable units of the PDP 11 family (too young and no blinkenlights) (poor not-so-little things), but any takers for adoption? Any bits or modules to be rescued for someone? > > Nice machines, and require a lot less power to run than an 11/70. Also a lot less room. Has 22-bit bus, and split I&D space. >Location is Vancouver, B.C., Canada. Price is take-it-away-it's-yours (unless we can twist your arm into making a donation to the radio museum with which we are associated). (Smaller bits I will consider doing for the price of shipping.) > > > From asholz at topinform.de Wed Dec 10 08:50:24 2003 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: <000b01c3bf20$c881bbf0$2201a8c0@finans> References: <2DDC91C1D2B7B229BDFE0238@ip211-183.tor.istop.com><3FD70C85.9510C1@cs.ubc.ca> <2850000.1071061854@libcat1.york.ac.uk> <000b01c3bf20$c881bbf0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <3FD732B0.2080208@topinform.com> In those old days we had a special device for cleaning these tapes (Algamatic). There was a detailed time schedule for the maintenance of the approx. 20000 tapes, which were stored in the archive. There was a time schedule for refreshing the tape by copying to new ones every two (or three years). Andreas From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Dec 10 08:49:03 2003 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B8D4@mail.catcorner.org> Nico de Jong said ... > To the best of my knowledge, the fabrication of 1/2" tapes has seized. > The last manufacturer was eMag, AFAIK. They are now even advertising > a new service : recertification of old/used tapes. They are also largely > out of stock now, with regard to new tapes. > ... > Nico We regularly purchase databases from outside sources. All but a few default to sending these on 9-track 1/2" tape (the bigger reels too). The mail houses still using the 1/2 tapes actually have a service charge of $75 to $100 per ten-thousand names to put them on floppy, cd or email. Maybe they're just trying to get rid of the thousands of junk tapes they have around. Anyway, I end up with a closet full of tapes every year. Kelly From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 10 10:04:45 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312101104.45317.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 10:47, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Usually you know the encoding scheme, and I dont see anything wrong > with using whatever knowledge you have of the interface to optimize > it. If a different encoding scheme is used, an FPGA based design > could easily adapt. "Knowing the encoding scheme" prevents this from being a "universal" interface. You'd need to make different version for, say, your PC/XT, your PDP-11 with an RQDXn, and TeleVideo TS816. (Or shouse I say "my" as those are all system I have that'd benefit from this). At most, (I think) you'd need a different cable set for all three of these if you didn't claim to "know" the encoding. Also, with at least two of these examples, you probably *don't* know the encoding method... as mentioned earlier, the RQDX(1) isn't based on any 'standard' controller IC. Also, the TeleVideo's controller is based upon an 8X300 microprocessor, and may not be RLL/MFM/FM. > But you're right, its probably possible to undo write-precomp by > simulating the drives tendency to push close transitions apart. I do > think some adjustments are needed per drive type... The write Precomp > value is pretty small - in the order of 5-10 % of the data period. > > > Peter Wallace Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 10 10:11:40 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312101611.IAA10760@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "James Dickens" ---snip--- > >okay not an expert, but most systems using these drives used interleaving of >sectors(because there was no way the system was fast enough to handle the >data), the IBM PC used a factor of 6. The machine the device would not know >what to do with 30MB/s of data if you produce it. i doubt any machine having >such a drive would benefit from more than 4MB/s and producing data faster >than the machine expects can cause timing errors, that were not noticed when >the machine was new. i guess after the device is made.. yo u will have to >spend more time slowing it down than trying to get it faster. > ---snip--- Hi As far as I know, all PC hard disk interfaces had at least a one sector buffer. This is unlike the floppy interface that did byte for byte DMA. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 10 10:22:32 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312101622.IAA10767@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Lawson" > > >On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > >> The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is >> whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. The >> controller shifts the pulses on write to compensate for the peak >> shifts that happen on magnetic media when flux changes are recorded >> close together. > > > > Is it not true that the precomp circuits are driven by head position >info - thus the 'solid' version (emulation) of any drive would just be >permanently 'stuck' in one mode or the other would the controller care, or >even know, what track and cylinder the actual 'data' were coming from? Hi Some controllers used the cylinder information to turn on the compensation for the inner tracks. > > I don't know if this would cause the emulator qua emulator to fail at >some perhaps subjective level - but I can't see where one would need to >actually legislate write precomp into a block of RAM. > One can see from the timing that there is compensation being written. My understanding is that the selected compensation is only used for the write. The read amps do have some non-linear response to compensate for the normal effects of megnetic data. From what I've seen, the read is fixed for and compensation so regardless of the track, one should be able to provide data with the same framing as any other track. Dwight From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 10 10:27:50 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312101104.45317.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 10 December 2003 10:47, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Usually you know the encoding scheme, and I dont see anything wrong > > with using whatever knowledge you have of the interface to optimize > > it. If a different encoding scheme is used, an FPGA based design > > could easily adapt. > > "Knowing the encoding scheme" prevents this from being a "universal" > interface. You'd need to make different version for, say, your PC/XT, > your PDP-11 with an RQDXn, and TeleVideo TS816. (Or shouse I say "my" > as those are all system I have that'd benefit from this). At most, (I > think) you'd need a different cable set for all three of these if you > didn't claim to "know" the encoding. No, thats not true, all you need to know is the encoding scheme... The cabling is interface type specific. > > Also, with at least two of these examples, you probably *don't* know the > encoding method... as mentioned earlier, the RQDX(1) isn't based on any > 'standard' controller IC. Also, the TeleVideo's controller is based > upon an 8X300 microprocessor, and may not be RLL/MFM/FM. The controller implementation doesnt actually matter much. The encoding scheme is very likely MFM on all the mentioned systems. > > > But you're right, its probably possible to undo write-precomp by > > simulating the drives tendency to push close transitions apart. I do > > think some adjustments are needed per drive type... The write Precomp > > value is pretty small - in the order of 5-10 % of the data period. > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS > Information Technology at Purdue > Research Computing and Storage > http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > Peter Wallace From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 10 10:42:14 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312101142.14161.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 11:27, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > "Knowing the encoding scheme" prevents this from being a > > "universal" interface. You'd need to make different version for, > > say, your PC/XT, your PDP-11 with an RQDXn, and TeleVideo TS816. > > (Or shouse I say "my" as those are all system I have that'd benefit > > from this). At most, (I think) you'd need a different cable set > > for all three of these if you didn't claim to "know" the encoding. > > No, thats not true, all you need to know is the encoding scheme... > The cabling is interface type specific. Not being an 'expert' in data encoding schemes for hard drives, I can't claim with 100% certainty... but I'm willing to bet there's systems out there that use things such as GCR (similar to the Apple ][ and Commodore floppy disk encoding schemes). Also, you'd have to take into account in your scheme that the data rate for different controllers may not match. For example, recording data on the 8" hard drive in the Televideo TS816 probably isn't the same 'data rate' as a common ST506 interface drive, even though the interfaces are similar. To me, it's pointless to create a design that's arbitrarily limited to just one encoding scheme if you don't have to. When you can simplify the design *and* make it more universal, why not? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 10 11:27:07 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312101142.14161.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 10 December 2003 11:27, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > "Knowing the encoding scheme" prevents this from being a > > > "universal" interface. You'd need to make different version for, > > > say, your PC/XT, your PDP-11 with an RQDXn, and TeleVideo TS816. > > > (Or shouse I say "my" as those are all system I have that'd benefit > > > from this). At most, (I think) you'd need a different cable set > > > for all three of these if you didn't claim to "know" the encoding. > > > > No, thats not true, all you need to know is the encoding scheme... > > The cabling is interface type specific. > > Not being an 'expert' in data encoding schemes for hard drives, I can't > claim with 100% certainty... but I'm willing to bet there's systems out > there that use things such as GCR (similar to the Apple ][ and > Commodore floppy disk encoding schemes). > > Also, you'd have to take into account in your scheme that the data rate > for different controllers may not match. For example, recording data > on the 8" hard drive in the Televideo TS816 probably isn't the same > 'data rate' as a common ST506 interface drive, even though the > interfaces are similar. > > To me, it's pointless to create a design that's arbitrarily limited to > just one encoding scheme if you don't have to. When you can simplify > the design *and* make it more universal, why not? I was not considering a design that would be limited to any particular drive type, but rather that the logical "front end" of the emulator could be tweaked for best performance by tailoring it to the specific drive. The actual hardware to do the bitstream processing would most easily be done in a FPGA so any changes would not require hardware modifications. Heres what I envision: A small (say 4x5") circuit card with a FPGA, a SDRAM SIMM socket (or soldered-on SDRAM), an IDE drive interface, FPGA core power supply, and perhaps built in level shifters and connectors for at least ST506, Q2000, and SMD drives. A daughter board connector is provided for more exotic drive hardware interfaces (RLxx HP79xx etc). The FPGA config could be downloaded with a serial port or USB. I guess Tony convinced me of the simplicty of the shift register track data recording, but compression is still valuable for performance reasons - the data can be easily compressed before storing in the IDE drive... > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS > Information Technology at Purdue > Research Computing and Storage > http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Wed Dec 10 11:27:00 2003 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 systems available References: <3FD70CAE.56DD613@cs.ubc.ca> <3FD734AF.9040507@srv.net> Message-ID: <3FD75764.E658522F@Vishay.com> Kevin, sounds like you're thinking of the 11/83: the TSV05 would be Qbus, as are 22-bit buses. The 11/84 should be UNIBUS, if I am not mistaken. So it should be TSU05 then (same drive, different controller). I/D space and large memory is still right, of course. Nice machine for sure! I wish I could afford having one sent to Germany! Andreas Kevin Handy schrieb: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >A friend who manages some communications systems expects to be decommissioning 3 or 4 PDP 11/84 systems soon (~ end of 2003). These systems have been functioning for approaching-two-decades in a (presumably) good environment. > > > >Sorry to be a little vague on details (I'm recalling this from a quick verbal discussion) but each system is something like: > > PDP 11/84 CPU > > RL02 removable-platter disc drive > > MD17 / MD175 fixed disc (?) > > tape drive (9-track I believe, but that seems a little odd, like it would more likely be those mid-80s DEC cartridges) > > > > > Probably a TSV05. Fairly common on 11/8*'s. 9-track autoload drive, > 1600bpi only. > Could be just about anything else without a description. It may be a TK50 > you are thinking of, or the nasty TK25. > > > other I/O interfaces presumably > > > >I don't know what OS they were running/installed with. Email me and I'll try to get clarifications if desired. > > > >I know these aren't the most desirable units of the PDP 11 family (too young and no blinkenlights) (poor not-so-little things), but any takers for adoption? Any bits or modules to be rescued for someone? > > > > > Nice machines, and require a lot less power to run than an 11/70. Also a lot > less room. Has 22-bit bus, and split I&D space. > > >Location is Vancouver, B.C., Canada. Price is take-it-away-it's-yours (unless we can twist your arm into making a donation to the radio museum with which we are associated). (Smaller bits I will consider doing for the price of shipping.) > > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Dec 10 11:36:54 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799B8D4@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > We regularly purchase databases from outside sources. All but a few default > to sending these on 9-track 1/2" tape (the bigger reels too). The mail > houses still using the 1/2 tapes actually have a service charge of $75 to > $100 per ten-thousand names to put them on floppy, cd or email. Maybe > they're just trying to get rid of the thousands of junk tapes they have > around. Anyway, I end up with a closet full of tapes every year. This reminds me of the telephone company charging to NOT have your name listed in the phone book* (perhaps ink costs MORE when they use less, or maybe the NOT_LISTED field in their database table takes up so much data that it requires them to have additional disk drive space on hand to accomodate it). * at least where I am -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spedraja at ono.com Wed Dec 10 11:33:32 2003 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy References: <200312101142.14161.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <006d01c3bf43$bcc44800$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Hi everybody. Question for gurus: Someone knows (or adapted it for yourself) of one 5.25 floppy drive connected with some kind of USB cable or controller ? I want to do image disks of almost 2000 diskettes I have, and I should like to use my laptop to do it. Thanks in advance. Cheers Sergio From vcf at siconic.com Wed Dec 10 12:14:11 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <006d01c3bf43$bcc44800$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, SP wrote: > Question for gurus: Someone knows (or adapted it for > yourself) of one 5.25 floppy drive connected with some kind > of USB cable or controller ? I want to do image disks of almost > 2000 diskettes I have, and I should like to use my laptop to do it. I'm sure one can be built, but I've seen drives like these before (but for the Macintosh). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Wed Dec 10 12:26:33 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:46 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy Message-ID: >I'm sure one can be built, but I've seen drives like these before (but for >the Macintosh). I just saw a 3.5" USB drive this morning connected to a Dell. From the looks of it, that is they way Dell was delivering the drive for that computer (it was a tiny little tower like unit and had no floppy built in). So they are available for more than just the Mac. I think the one I bought for my father's iMac (so he can transfer pics from his Mavica camera) was not Mac specific and was supported by Windows and Linux according to the box (but the drive sucks, its PAINFULLY slow to copy data, far slower than the USB bus so the speed isn't killed by that... IIRC, its a "SanDisk" brand drive, but I could be wrong). -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 10 12:26:45 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031210102315.L63415@newshell.lmi.net> > > Question for gurus: Someone knows (or adapted it for > > yourself) of one 5.25 floppy drive connected with some kind > > of USB cable or controller ? I want to do image disks of almost > > 2000 diskettes I have, and I should like to use my laptop to do it. On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm sure one can be built, but I've seen drives like these before (but for > the Macintosh). There are PC laptops with no floppy, that use external USB floppies. Q: do those have, inside them, an "industry standard" (SA400) drive? If so, then cabling to a 1.2M or 360K drive should be trivial. HOWEVER, it seems unlikely that it will support the 300K data transfer rate, so reading 360K disks in a 1.2M drive will require switching drives to a 360K, or some kludges on a "dual speed" drive. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 10 12:33:58 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Dec 10, 03 01:26:33 pm Message-ID: <200312101833.NAA14433@wordstock.com> And thusly chris spake: > > So they are available for more than just the Mac. I think the one I > bought for my father's iMac (so he can transfer pics from his Mavica > camera) was not Mac specific and was supported by Windows and Linux > according to the box (but the drive sucks, its PAINFULLY slow to copy > data, far slower than the USB bus so the speed isn't killed by that... > IIRC, its a "SanDisk" brand drive, but I could be wrong). > Maybe they are competing with the 1541 for "slowest transfer rate ever". Cheers, Bryan Pope From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 10 12:37:08 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, SP wrote: > >> Question for gurus: Someone knows (or adapted it for >> yourself) of one 5.25 floppy drive connected with some kind >> of USB cable or controller ? I want to do image disks of almost >> 2000 diskettes I have, and I should like to use my laptop to do it. > >I'm sure one can be built, but I've seen drives like these before (but for >the Macintosh). I've got one of the original VST USB 3.5" floppies. I've used it on my PowerMac G4/450 AGP (Mac OS 8.6/9.x/X), and on my wife's IBM Thinkpad running WinME (ick). It's apparently doesn't require any drivers under WinME, and I just checked it on my new Mac, so it apparently doesn't need special drivers under Mac OS X 10.3 either. My concern would be that OS's are expecting such a device to be a 3.5" HD floppy, or one of those 120MB 3.5" floppy things (can't remember their name). You could conceivably have to try and write your own drivers. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Dec 10 12:45:29 2003 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312101345.29778.jcwren@jcwren.com> I wonder where the smarts are? If the controller is in the drive, you may be limited to the formats you can read. I.e., you may be stuck with whatever sectors per track and track counts that are supposed on "normal" PC drives. Perhaps someone should buy one of these and take it apart... --jc On Wednesday 10 December 2003 13:26 pm, chris wrote: > >I'm sure one can be built, but I've seen drives like these before (but for > >the Macintosh). > > I just saw a 3.5" USB drive this morning connected to a Dell. From the > looks of it, that is they way Dell was delivering the drive for that > computer (it was a tiny little tower like unit and had no floppy built > in). > > So they are available for more than just the Mac. I think the one I > bought for my father's iMac (so he can transfer pics from his Mavica > camera) was not Mac specific and was supported by Windows and Linux > according to the box (but the drive sucks, its PAINFULLY slow to copy > data, far slower than the USB bus so the speed isn't killed by that... > IIRC, its a "SanDisk" brand drive, but I could be wrong). > > -chris > From rich at sias.us Wed Dec 10 12:54:25 2003 From: rich at sias.us (Rich Sias) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Seeking user of "Option Board" from Central Point Software References: <3FD44446.25AD6C1D@nec.com.au> Message-ID: <04a801c3bf4f$0fda1d20$8f290b0a@kmhp.com> I tried to use my old Option Board from Central Point Software and am having difficulty in getting it to write tracks to floppy. It recognizes the option board and appears to read ok. Who has used it successfully and remembers how ? Rich From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Dec 10 13:01:31 2003 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <200312101345.29778.jcwren@jcwren.com> References: <200312101345.29778.jcwren@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20031210190131.GF10350@uiuc.edu> Those USB floppy drives generally use a "SCSI protocol over USB transport" scheme (this is in fact the way the USB mass-storage standard works AFAIK, so floppy drives aren't the only things that do this), so I would be VERY suprised if there's any "standard" floppy drive in there that you could just swap out for a different type. J.C. Wren said: > I wonder where the smarts are? If the controller is in the drive, you may be > limited to the formats you can read. I.e., you may be stuck with whatever > sectors per track and track counts that are supposed on "normal" PC drives. > Perhaps someone should buy one of these and take it apart... > > --jc > > On Wednesday 10 December 2003 13:26 pm, chris wrote: > > >I'm sure one can be built, but I've seen drives like these before (but for > > >the Macintosh). > > > > I just saw a 3.5" USB drive this morning connected to a Dell. From the > > looks of it, that is they way Dell was delivering the drive for that > > computer (it was a tiny little tower like unit and had no floppy built > > in). > > > > So they are available for more than just the Mac. I think the one I > > bought for my father's iMac (so he can transfer pics from his Mavica > > camera) was not Mac specific and was supported by Windows and Linux > > according to the box (but the drive sucks, its PAINFULLY slow to copy > > data, far slower than the USB bus so the speed isn't killed by that... > > IIRC, its a "SanDisk" brand drive, but I could be wrong). > > > > -chris > > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From chrisc at addpower.com Wed Dec 10 12:55:30 2003 From: chrisc at addpower.com (Christopher Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time Message-ID: Finally! Instead of just working on one, I'm going to try to build one from some components that I've collected. Trouble is, I'm not sure how to put it all together. I saw mention of a QBUS howto, but the link to that seems to be long gone. Would a kind soul care to assist on this? This is what I have: BA23 enclosure M8190-AB (11/84 cpu) M8067 (512k memory?) M7516 (DELQA) Dilog DQ686 (ESDI controller) Maxtor ESDI drive (don't remember how large offhand) I'm thinking that I have all that I need here, but I could be wrong. I want to be able to run 2.11BSD on the machine... Cheers, Chris Cureau From patrick at evocative.com Wed Dec 10 13:15:58 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This reminds me of the telephone company charging to NOT have your name > listed in the phone book* (perhaps ink costs MORE when they use less, or IIRC, the original purpose of this was to offset the cost of increased load on the 411 directory information system, presumably because people would call that after not finding you in the book. But, don't we now pay for 411 calls? --Patrick From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 10 13:59:43 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >So they are available for more than just the Mac. I think the one I >bought for my father's iMac (so he can transfer pics from his Mavica >camera) was not Mac specific and was supported by Windows and Linux >according to the box (but the drive sucks, its PAINFULLY slow to copy >data, far slower than the USB bus so the speed isn't killed by that... >IIRC, its a "SanDisk" brand drive, but I could be wrong). Using *ANY* floppy on a PowerMac is painfully slow. When I was getting ready to move from my 8500/180 to my G4/450 AGP I wanted to image a large number of floppies that I had. I ended up doing the imaging on my PowerBook 540c, transfering them via ethernet to the 8500 and burning them to CD. That was a *LOT* faster than doing the reading directly on the 8500. Worse, some of these USB floppies need to be connected directly to the system, rather than hooking them into a Hub. Both my Mom and a friend of mine have drives like this. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 10 14:19:18 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <200312101833.NAA14433@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Dec 10, 3 01:33:58 pm" Message-ID: <200312102019.MAA13952@floodgap.com> > > So they are available for more than just the Mac. I think the one I > > bought for my father's iMac (so he can transfer pics from his Mavica > > camera) was not Mac specific and was supported by Windows and Linux > > according to the box (but the drive sucks, its PAINFULLY slow to copy > > data, far slower than the USB bus so the speed isn't killed by that... > > IIRC, its a "SanDisk" brand drive, but I could be wrong). > Maybe they are competing with the 1541 for "slowest transfer rate ever". My dual G4 Power Mac's USB floppy drive wins. Even without Epyx FastLoad, the 1541 is faster at reading and writing, and on top of all of that, there's no interminable delay waiting for the disk to mount in the Finder. *sigh* The reason I'm stuck using it is my Star Commander workstation is a little 486 laptop with no (working) Ethernet card, so disk images have to get sneaker-netted to and from the dual G4. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- When you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly. ----------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 10 14:12:39 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <200312102019.MAA13952@floodgap.com> References: <200312102019.MAA13952@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20031210121152.F63415@newshell.lmi.net> > > Maybe they are competing with the 1541 for "slowest transfer rate ever". > My dual G4 Power Mac's USB floppy drive wins. Even without Epyx FastLoad, the WHAT????????? Windoze has lost the title?? From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 10 14:41:36 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? Message-ID: <200312102041.hBAKfa1p028403@spies.com> > I've got old BASF and Memorex tapes (20 years +) that are fine You are extremely lucky. Memorex early 80's tape is the worst stuff I've ever had to deal with, esp MRXIV (red label) andn MRX?? (light gray) If you have anything you care about, get it off of those reels ASAP. It is classic "sticky shed syndrome". The binder becomes sticky and glues the layers of tape together. If you're interested in the details, you might want to try to find a copy of "Tribology and Mechanics of Magnetic Storage Devices" by Bhushan esp the chapter "Role of Chemical Properties in Magnetic Tapes". --- Magnetic tape media has become the bane of my existance :-< The sooner that I can get rid of every mag tape I own, the better... From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 10 14:49:47 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care Message-ID: <200312102049.hBAKnlDV029655@spies.com> > in the absence of manuals I had to dismantle it to find out how I *should have* dismantled it www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/07970-90887_7970svc_Dec77.pdf This was for the B series, but the mechanics are the same as the A. > Is the oxide coating stable Depends on the formulation. Early 80's formulas (esp. Memorex) will (has..) become unusable. I've personally had much less problems with 3M formulations. The long term prospects of tape transports with any rubber parts is not good, either. Almost all of the 1/4" cartridge tape drives I own are inoperable because the drive pinch rollers have turned to goo. From cb at mythtech.net Wed Dec 10 14:57:11 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy Message-ID: >Using *ANY* floppy on a PowerMac is painfully slow. When I was getting >ready to move from my 8500/180 to my G4/450 AGP I wanted to image a large >number of floppies that I had. I ended up doing the imaging on my >PowerBook 540c, transfering them via ethernet to the 8500 and burning them >to CD. That was a *LOT* faster than doing the reading directly on the 8500. I've seen no speed issues with floppy disks on any of my PowerMacs. Nor is there a speed problem with my brother-in-law's iMac and a USB floppy drive (Imation?). I've tested my slow USB drive on other iMacs, and its always slow... and I've used my brother-in-law's drive on the same iMacs with no speed problems... so I'm pretty convinced the speed problem is with the drive. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Wed Dec 10 15:00:11 2003 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy Message-ID: >The reason I'm stuck using it is my Star Commander workstation is a little >486 laptop with no (working) Ethernet card, so disk images have to get >sneaker-netted to and from the dual G4. Can it use a parallel to ethernet adaptor? I've got two from Xircom, and I bought them at a local computer flea market for $5.00 each (well, I bought one, my brother bought the other, and then gave it to me when he stopped using it). -chris From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Dec 10 15:20:52 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Seeking user of "Option Board" from Central Point Software In-Reply-To: <04a801c3bf4f$0fda1d20$8f290b0a@kmhp.com> References: <3FD44446.25AD6C1D@nec.com.au> <04a801c3bf4f$0fda1d20$8f290b0a@kmhp.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031210132011.031eaaf0@mail.zipcon.net> is it an original option board or the deluxe model? and what sort of floppies are you trying to copy with it? At 10:54 AM 12/10/03, you wrote: >I tried to use my old Option Board from Central Point Software and am having >difficulty in getting it to write tracks to floppy. It recognizes the option >board and appears to read ok. Who has used it successfully and remembers how >? > >Rich From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Dec 10 12:57:41 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Once the apple is hooked to a modern pc (probably a laptop running windows-xp), what s/w would be best to run on the apple and on the laptop to get the apple files transferred up to the pc? thanks! -Bob >On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > I have some old programs from my HP2000 days that I downloaded to > > APPLE-2 diskette (DOS 3.3 and PRODOS). > > > > Any ideas on the easiest way to get that source uploaded to a network > > connected system which should then be able to easily > > paste them into a terminal session and get the code active again? > > > > I have an APPLE //c, a II+ and a IIE. I appreciate any ideas on this one. > >Serial to serial, or over a modem. > >I have spare Super Serial Cards if you need one. Let me know... > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 10 16:23:41 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: from chris at "Dec 10, 3 04:00:11 pm" Message-ID: <200312102223.OAA14054@floodgap.com> > > The reason I'm stuck using it is my Star Commander workstation is a little > > 486 laptop with no (working) Ethernet card, so disk images have to get > > sneaker-netted to and from the dual G4. > > Can it use a parallel to ethernet adaptor? I've got two from Xircom, and > I bought them at a local computer flea market for $5.00 each (well, I > bought one, my brother bought the other, and then gave it to me when he > stopped using it). The laptop is DOS only -- does it work in DOS mode? Does it come with TCP/IP support? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- GMDd-s++:!aC++UAB++++P+++L-E---W++N++o-Kw---!OM++VPSa-PE++Y++PGPt+5?R?tv--hr* From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 16:19:07 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Bob Brown "Re: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)??" (Dec 10, 12:57) References: Message-ID: <10312102219.ZM16423@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Kermit, probably, unless you already have a terminal program with file transfer capability on the Apple. You can get versions for just about anything, at http://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/howtoget.html or mirror sites. Kermit can transfer binary files without loss or corruption between all sorts of systems. The tricky part is getting file transfer software onto the Apple in the first place. Kermit-65 (for the Apple ][) is available as a hex file which you can transfer fairly easily and convert to a working program; after that, the rest is easy. Look for the files that start "app..." for Kermit-65 for the Apple. ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/a/appaaa.hlp will tell you what they all are, and get you started. It's easier for the PC, all you need to do is download the relevant program (I'd suggest the slightly older DOS version, which is free, and works under Windows as well, despite the disclaimer -- or at least, it does for me). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 10 16:44:41 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Dec 10, 2003 03:57:11 PM Message-ID: <200312102244.hBAMigph006399@onyx.spiritone.com> > >Using *ANY* floppy on a PowerMac is painfully slow. When I was getting > >ready to move from my 8500/180 to my G4/450 AGP I wanted to image a large > >number of floppies that I had. I ended up doing the imaging on my > >PowerBook 540c, transfering them via ethernet to the 8500 and burning them > >to CD. That was a *LOT* faster than doing the reading directly on the 8500. > > I've seen no speed issues with floppy disks on any of my PowerMacs. Nor > is there a speed problem with my brother-in-law's iMac and a USB floppy > drive (Imation?). > > I've tested my slow USB drive on other iMacs, and its always slow... and > I've used my brother-in-law's drive on the same iMacs with no speed > problems... so I'm pretty convinced the speed problem is with the drive. > > -chris > Have you ever tried comparing the speed of a built-in floppy on a 68k Mac, to a built in floppy on a PPC Mac? Like I said above, the speed difference was extreme! Neither the PowerBook 540c (68040) or the PowerMac 8500/180 (PPC 604e) were using a USB floppy drive, they were using the built-in drives that Apple sold them with. I've never really compared the speed of the USB drive connected to the G4/450 AGP to the 8500/180, but as I recall they felt about the same. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 10 16:46:14 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <200312102223.OAA14054@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 10, 2003 02:23:41 PM Message-ID: <200312102246.hBAMkEZs006454@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Can it use a parallel to ethernet adaptor? I've got two from Xircom, and > > I bought them at a local computer flea market for $5.00 each (well, I > > bought one, my brother bought the other, and then gave it to me when he > > stopped using it). > > The laptop is DOS only -- does it work in DOS mode? Does it come with > TCP/IP support? IIRC, if you've got the right software these should work under DOS, they're definitly of the correct era. The problem is coming up with a copy of something like PC/TCP. Zane From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Dec 10 17:04:56 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Parallel Port Ethernet and DOS (was Re: USB 5.25 floppy) In-Reply-To: <200312102246.hBAMkEZs006454@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200312102223.OAA14054@floodgap.com> <200312102246.hBAMkEZs006454@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20031210230456.GA2437@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:46:14PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Can it use a parallel to ethernet adaptor? I've got two from Xircom, and > > > I bought them at a local computer flea market for $5.00 each... Nice. Are they the newer "PE-3" models? If so, you can use a parasitic power cable that taps into the keyboard jack. AFAIK, the PE-2 will draw too much current for some boards to supply. > > The laptop is DOS only -- does it work in DOS mode? Does it come with > > TCP/IP support? > > IIRC, if you've got the right software these should work under DOS, they're > definitly of the correct era. The problem is coming up with a copy of > something like PC/TCP. I have a Zenith laptop (with the blue/grey screen and the double pop-up 720K 3.5" floppies) attached to my PE-3. I use a packet driver and Kermit. Mostly, this thing gets used as portable terminal, but on all of my 8-bit DOS hardware (including my old device burner box), Kermit for DOS has a TCP stack, and lets me move files and establish terminal sessions. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Dec-2003 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -8.9 F (-22.8 C) Windchill -42.9 F (-41.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.6 kts Grid 348 Barometer 695.9 mb (10033. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 10 17:24:16 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <200312102244.hBAMigph006399@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 10, 3 02:44:41 pm" Message-ID: <200312102324.PAA15506@floodgap.com> > Have you ever tried comparing the speed of a built-in floppy on a 68k Mac, > to a built in floppy on a PPC Mac? Like I said above, the speed difference > was extreme! Neither the PowerBook 540c (68040) or the PowerMac 8500/180 > (PPC 604e) were using a USB floppy drive, they were using the built-in > drives that Apple sold them with. I've never really compared the speed of > the USB drive connected to the G4/450 AGP to the 8500/180, but as I recall > they felt about the same. My 7300's floppy actually was quite a bit faster than my dual G4's USB floppy (oh MAN is it slow), but both are definitely dwarfed by the SuperDrive in my workstation IIci, which is so fast that I use it now routinely as a disk imaging station (DiskCopy and a nice big hard disk :). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 10 17:27:00 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Parallel Port Ethernet and DOS (was Re: USB 5.25 floppy) In-Reply-To: <20031210230456.GA2437@bos7.spole.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Dec 10, 3 06:04:56 pm" Message-ID: <200312102327.PAA15552@floodgap.com> > Nice. Are they the newer "PE-3" models? If so, you can use a parasitic > power cable that taps into the keyboard jack. AFAIK, the PE-2 will draw > too much current for some boards to supply. > > > > The laptop is DOS only -- does it work in DOS mode? Does it come with > > > TCP/IP support? > > > > IIRC, if you've got the right software these should work under DOS, they're > > definitly of the correct era. The problem is coming up with a copy of > > something like PC/TCP. > > I have a Zenith laptop (with the blue/grey screen and the double pop-up > 720K 3.5" floppies) attached to my PE-3. I use a packet driver and Kermit. > Mostly, this thing gets used as portable terminal, but on all of my 8-bit > DOS hardware (including my old device burner box), Kermit for DOS has a TCP > stack, and lets me move files and establish terminal sessions. Hmm. I'll have to see if the Mac version can act as a server so I can connect from one to the other (I'm stuck on a PC at work a/t/m). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- They make a desert and call it peace. -- Tacitus --------------------------- From tomj at wps.com Wed Dec 10 17:22:43 2003 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312101142.14161.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200312101142.14161.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1071098563.6582.8.camel@dhcp166-138.ace.uci.edu> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 08:42, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > To me, it's pointless to create a design that's arbitrarily limited to > just one encoding scheme if you don't have to. When you can simplify > the design *and* make it more universal, why not? To this end, it seems reasonable to have the simulator be given some knowledge of the thing being simulated, for example, the bit transition timestamp (delta-T between transitions) could be a small value, and a DIPswitch (real or virtual) set the granularity (100K/ 1M/ 10M/bits/sec), that sort of thing. Generic-enough variables to handle all or some vast percentage of possible drives. From oldcomp at cox.net Wed Dec 10 17:52:28 2003 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: HP-85 Rom Emulator References: <003401c3bec8$8cc58f40$0200a8c0@ath700> Message-ID: <3FD7B1BC.1010308@cox.net> I have a picture of an Ohm meter I could email you. :) -Bryan Bill Kotaska wrote: > I'm working on a ROM emulator for the HP-85 - i.e. a replica of the > original (and hard to find) Programmable ROM Module. From photos > (thanks to Vassilis Prevelakis), I've drawn a schematic of most of > the original module. But I've hit a snag where some of the traces > disappear under the ICs. I've been able to deduce most of these but > some are too ambiguous to "pin" down. Is there someone who owns this > elusive module that would be willing to ring some paths for me > (probably 10 to 20) ? Some connections may be obvious simply with a > closer visual inspection of the actual module. > > Thanks, Bill > From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Dec 10 12:57:55 2003 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Looking for Compaq LTE 386 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031210235731.QTSW23158.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:22:10 -0800 (PST) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > To: Classic Computers Mailing List , > Bay Area Computer Collector List > Cc: > Subject: Looking for Compaq LTE 386 > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Has anyone got a Compaq LTE 386 that they'd be willing to part with? > If so, please contact me. > > Thanks! This doesn't exist. LTE 386s does. I used to own one. Cheers, Wizard > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Dec 10 18:02:31 2003 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: HP2000 Tape Conversion In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson "Re: HP2000 Tape Conversion" (Dec 9, 20:28) References: <7E0DE394-2AB8-11D8-BFCF-000393C5A0B6@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <10312110002.ZM16537@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 9, 20:28, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Somewhere, once upon a time, I found on the net an HPBasic interpreter > either > for windows or for DOS... I don't know where it was though. > > Shareware / Freeware I think. Might have been TransEra's HTBasic -- but it's commercial. http://www.techsoft.de/htbasic/htbasic.htm One of several good places to look for informaton about BASIC in various forms is http://www.icewalkers.com/opd/Computers/Programming/Languages/BASIC/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 10 18:39:20 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312110039.hBB0dKab031237@spies.com> One of the reasons for starting the bitsavers archive was to try to collect descriptions of various peripheral interfaces. A couple I haven't been able to locate so far is a description of the ANSI 8" winchester interface, and also a service manual for Quantum 2040 and/or 2080 8" discs (thought I had copies, but haven't been able to find 'em) Anyone have these that could be borrowed to scan? From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 10 18:50:57 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312110050.hBB0ovPS032720@spies.com> Something else that would be nice to be able to do with this sort of hardware would be the ability to read an arbitrarily formatted real disc drive. The MFM drives in Xerox 6085's and 8010's have 'interesting' sector formats that can't be read with normal controllers. From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 10 18:50:28 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: Message-ID: <002801c3bf80$c5cbe920$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I'm thinking that I have all that I need here, but I could be wrong. Here's a quick answer, possibly wrong (I don't think so, but I was never a DEC FE), but quick anyway. > BA23 enclosure > M8067 (512k memory?) likely 128K > M7516 (DELQA) > Dilog DQ686 (ESDI controller) > Maxtor ESDI drive (don't remember how large offhand) and > M8190-AB (11/84 cpu) I separated the '84 CPU because it's oops Unibus and not Qbus. Everything else you have listed is Qbus. The busses don't mix. You're in about the same shape as I am. I have all the boards except the memory board, and even though I have a Qbus system complete with memory (microVAX II) here too, it's not compatible with a PDP11 CPU. The m8186 is a Qbus 11/23, and the m8192 is a 11/73 (Qbus is always -/x3) The CPU boards show up on eBay about 6~12 times a year for an OK price, or if you have a spare memory board to trade or can get one I can trade you a CPU too. Good Luck, John A. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 10 18:52:43 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2357.4.20.168.140.1071103963.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is > whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. John Lawson wrote: > Is it not true that the precomp circuits are driven by head position > info - thus the 'solid' version (emulation) of any drive would just be > permanently 'stuck' in one mode or the other would the controller care, or > even know, what track and cylinder the actual 'data' were coming from? The controller does write precomp, and the drive emulator can't easily tell on which cylinders the controller is doing it, vs. on which it is not. In fact, the controller could use varying amounts of precomp on various ranges of cylinders, e.g., 25 ns on cylinders 0-199, 30 ns on cylinders 200-299, 35 ns on cylinder 300-399, etc. In practice every controller I've dealt with has a fixed amount of precomp that is used on a (possibly configurable) range of cylinders. Anyhow, the point is that when the controller performs write precomp on a cylinder, it is trying to compensate for the magnetic characteristics of the drive, and expects the data to come back when read *without* much if any of the precomp-introduced shifting intact. If the drive emulator does not emulate the precomp behavior of the real drive, the read data pulses will be out of their nominal timing by the precomp amount, which increases the probability of read errors. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Dec 10 18:55:34 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2365.4.20.168.140.1071104134.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is > whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. Peter Wallace wrote: > Right, one option would be for the emulator to have a FM, MFM or RLL front > end > and actually decode the bitstream. Then the write-precomp could be > undone... You can undo precomp without doing FM, MFM, or RLL decode, and in fact remain completely format-agnostic. You just have to model the peak- shifting that the real drive would perform. This could be done either during write, or as the data is read back. If you did decode the data, it would reduce the storage requirements of the emulator considerably, but it would make it a lot less general-purpose. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 17:54:54 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Dec 9, 3 10:16:54 pm Message-ID: > Is it not true that the precomp circuits are driven by head position > info - thus the 'solid' version (emulation) of any drive would just be Generally, yse... > permanently 'stuck' in one mode or the other would the controller care, or > even know, what track and cylinder the actual 'data' were coming from? Ih, but it does matter... The point of precompensation is tha when you write magnetic transitions to the real disk, they don't end up quite where you expect (this is a sort-of cimplification, but it will do for the moment). So you change the timing of some of the pulses in the bitstream, so that when you write the _modified_ bitstream and read it back you get what you had in the first place (before precompensation). Thus, on reading, the controller sees an _unmangled_ bitstream coming from the drive. By unmangled, I don't mean what was fed into the drive when it was written. I mean what was fed into the precompensation circuit, which might well be part of the controller. Now, the emulator doesn't ever mangle the bitstream. So if you write a precompensated bitstream to the emulator, and then read it back, what you see is the precompensated bitstream, with the timing of some pulses changed. This is not what the controller expects. Maybe it'll work, maybe not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 18:22:46 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1071055501.8380.40.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 10, 3 11:25:01 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 01:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > It was suggested that the emulator should contain enough RAM to buffer > > the entire disk image, > > That does seem a little over the top to me. Ditto with suggestions for I woulld agree... > various ways of condensing the data stream - if the buffer just needs to > be a couple of MB, then that seems fine - 2MB of fast RAM would not be > unreasonable. No, I think 512K SRAM chips are now easy to obtain and cheap. Certainly 128K ones are, and it's only 16 of those (which is not excessive). I'd want to organise the RAM as at least 16 bits wide, maybe 32 (to simplifiy the timing problems in the rest of the hardware), so larger RAM chips wouldn't be a big help. > I'm with Tony on the USB side of things :-) The maximum cable length > between drive and controller as Tony mentioned the other day is an issue > though, and one I'd mean to ask about a little while ago. I'd assumed > the average length of 10" or so was more due to physical constraits than I think it partially depends on what drivers and receivers are used, and how well the cables are terminated. I've probably broken all the rules, but I have sent ST506 signals down a couple of feet of cable without problems.... Just don't have the classic one one side of the room and the PC-with-the-emualtor on the other.... > That does imply that *something* needs to be inside the classic chassis > due to electrical restrictions. That in turn seems to imply that the > whole lot - in an ideal world - needs to fit in a 5.25" half-height bay; > interface electronics and modern drive replacement. Of course most > classics would have more space than this though, but I'd suggest that > for a final interface things at least fit in a 5.25" bay for convenience > of mounting, even if the replacement drive has to lurk somewhere else. I was hoping to do that (although I was also thinking of a full-height bay.... > Having one drive per classic doesn't help a) at all, but reliable drives > in the order of 1GB or so can be found for free and are likely to keep The simplest hardware would seem to take 2-3Gbytes for a maximum-size ST506 image. Most will be a lot smaller than that. I think 20-40Gbyte IDE drives are pretty cheap now.... > running for a good few years yet (at which point I can switch to > whatever capacity is then the freebie of the day. So b) becomes > irrelevant (I'd still much rather use SCSI drives as that's what I have > spares of - I don't keep IDE drives lying around) I don't have either 'spare'. It really comes down to which makes the hardware interface easier. I'd like to try DMA (see the other message) -- this is not too hard on a SCSI drive, I think it's OK on most modern-ish IDE drives. > > Point c) about backup can be rethought. All the interface needs is > *some* way of getting data out of it (and back into it, presumably :) A really kludgy way to do this is to pull the drive from the emulator, cable it up to a PC, and copy the image over using dd or something. Not elegant, but it'll work (remember the data on the modern drive is stored in normal sectors on said drive, so a PC can read it, even if it can't make sense of it). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 17:50:48 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 9, 3 07:00:32 pm Message-ID: > > The part of the ST-506 disk emulation that's of most concern to me is > whether anything needs to be done about write precompensation. The I'd considered this too... With the real drives, there were 3 types : 1) Drives that did no prcompensation internally, it had to be done by the controller 2) Drives that did procompensation when the RWC/ signal was asserted (normally asserted by the controller on the inner cylinders) 3) Drives that did precompensation automatically based on where the drive knew the heads were. Most of the later ST506 drives ware (3), BTW. In cases (2) and (3) we don't need to worry. The bitstream from the controller is unmangled, so we can record it and play it back unchangged. In the case of (1), the original drive modifies the bitstream (that's what precompensation is for, it modifies the bitstream so the the drive changes it back again, and on reading, the cotnroller sees an unmangled bitstream). I don't know if most controllers would accept a precompenstated-but-not-changed-by-the-drive bitstream. Some controller have links to enable/disable precompensation. The Adaptec ACB4000 (I mention that one, since I have an ACW on the bench at the moment, so the details are stuck in my brain) has a link with 3 positions -- never precompensate, alwaus precompensate, and precompensate on inner cylinders (when RWC/ is also asseted, BTW). Similarly, on some machines you can disable precompensation in software (often by setting the start-precompensation cylinder to a higher value than the number of cylinders on the drive). So in those cases you can disable precompensation by a fairly simple, reversable, modification. Which just leaves machines where you can't. I suspect some of the HP controllers, like the one in the 9133, are going to be like this. Maybe you can get away with not doing anything. Maybe you have to add a little cirucit (a delay line, mux (to select the delay) and a state machine (to work out whether the bit has been made 'early' or 'late', and then tell the mux to give the opposite delay) between the write data output of the controller and the input of the emulator. I suspect that circuit could be pretty generic since precompensation should depend only on the actual bitpattern sent to the drive, and not on what user data that bitpattern encodes. So the precompensation (and thus the un-precompensator) should be the same for MFM, RLL, etc controllers. A few more random thoughts.... 1) It may help to have wider RAM and shift registers (say 2 16 bit banks, rather than 2 8 bit ones) to increase the time available for RAM accesses. It's not going to increase the hardware complexity very much. 2) Sine the RAM is addressed by a counter anyway (so the locations can be read/written sequentially over the ST506 interface), it would seem to be fairly simple to use that as part of a DMA controller to trnasfer data to the modern hard disk as fast as the latter can accept it. If you don't worry about compression of the data, that is. In which case, you need almost no processor power in the emulator (just enough to set up the DMA transfer, seleect the block on the modern drive, etc). I'll ahve to see how DMA works on IDE interfaces, though. 3) The index pulse could be obtained by decoding the RAM address counter outputs. However, this would mean that the index pulse would be missing during DMA -- that is, during 'seeks'. Does this matter? Does any controller actually need an index pulse when seek complete is deasserted? 4) With a few slight hardware changes (specifically related to the 'head' selection and index pulse), the emulator could be connected to the original ST506 _drive_ and make an image copy of it onto the modern disk. This would be useful for machines that can't do a low-level format (again, the HP9133 springs to mind) since such an image copy would copy the low-level format too. The modern hard disk could then be connected to a normal emulator and used to replace the ST506 drive in the classic computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 18:01:33 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Dec 9, 3 08:45:45 pm Message-ID: > Right, one option would be for the emulator to have a FM, MFM or RLL front end Oh for %deity's sake... I am sure it was regarded as a Good Thing (if not essential) that the emulator works with all controllers _without modification_. In other words, no separate MFM and RLL versions. In any case, do you know the exact encoding details of every ST506 controller ever made? I certainly don't, and I've repaired a heck of a lot of them. If you're going to go far enough to decode the MFM (or whatever) encoding, you might as well also recognise sectors, etc and just store the user data (and any filesystem pointers in the headers, etc). This is very efficient of emulator RAM, but it means you need a different emulator for each controller/system. And you need to know a lot about how the controller actually encodes the data. > and actually decode the bitstream. Then the write-precomp could be undone... However, for udoing write precompensation, I am not conviced that you need to know details of the encoding. Precompensation is a kludge to correct for a magnetic effect on the disk. How the pulses in the bitstream are shifted should only depend on that bitstream, and not on the data in encodes or how it encodes it. Therefore it should be possible to undo it without knowing the encoding method. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 18:04:18 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <10312100815.ZM15803@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 10, 3 08:15:36 am Message-ID: > > On Dec 10, 0:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So what do you want me to change? Should it be text/plain? Or should > I > > remove that header line altogether (I am not going to totally upgrade > my > > mail software!). Or should I just stop posting here? > > It wasn't a rant, Tony, just an observation :-) If you want to do Sure.... It's a pity the tone of my voice doesn't come across in postings -- I wasn't moaning... > something about it, and it's easy to do, I'd remove that header > altogether. It's not valid unless you put the rest of the MIME headers > in as well. Well, based on what was said last night, I've changed it to text/plain. Let's see if that helps, or if it causes more problems, or what. It's not hard to change it -- it's a fprintf() in one of the elm source files, I just have to edit that file, run make, and then copy the binary over. I'm not a programmer, but I can figure out how to do that. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 10 18:59:56 2003 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <002801c3bf80$c5cbe920$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 10, 2003 07:50:28 PM Message-ID: <200312110059.hBB0xuwj011331@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I'm thinking that I have all that I need here, but I could be wrong. > > Here's a quick answer, possibly wrong (I don't think so, but I > was never a DEC FE), but quick anyway. > > > BA23 enclosure > > M8067 (512k memory?) > likely 128K > > M7516 (DELQA) > > Dilog DQ686 (ESDI controller) > > Maxtor ESDI drive (don't remember how large offhand) > > and > > > M8190-AB (11/84 cpu) > > I separated the '84 CPU because it's oops Unibus and not > Qbus. Everything else you have listed is Qbus. The busses > don't mix. Actually a PDP-11/84 uses a Q-Bus CPU in an adapter of some sort, same with the memory. My concerns with what I see listed above are if the memory will work with the CPU (did it come out of the same system?), I don't have time to check the part number. The other concern is, since you're wanting to run 2.11BSD, is the disk controller supported? Zane From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 10 19:00:11 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: DEC series 100 module info? (was: DEC M750 flipchip?) References: <200311210448.hAL4muvC008372@spies.com> <006e01c3b045$01db7f20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004401c3bf82$22003b00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Thanks go to Al Kossow for having, at least, the sales brochures for these old items (1957!) re: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/JPEGs/3000broch* http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/JPEGs/Jun60Brochure* If anyone has the actual system available, I could use a meter read out for the power pins (again). BTW these are also called the "Lab Modules" John A. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:34 AM Subject: DEC series 100 module info? (was: DEC M750 flipchip?) It's probably good to put out this request periodically. I happened across some of the earliest DEC modules, the 100 series, a couple of years ago and would like information on the pinouts (more "plugouts") on the back. I think they take -15v,+10v,+10v,-3v but I would like to see the documentation to find out which input goes where. Any information would be appreciated, thanks. John A. From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Dec 10 19:02:49 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <002801c3bf80$c5cbe920$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, John Allain wrote: > > M8190-AB (11/84 cpu) > > I separated the '84 CPU because it's oops Unibus and not > Qbus. Everything else you have listed is Qbus. The busses > don't mix. An 11/84 is an 11/83 CPU board with Qniverter extender for Unibus, so he can just use the /83 board in his box to make a nice 11/83 system. Right? > You're in about the same shape as I am. I have all the boards > except the memory board, and even though I have a Qbus > system complete with memory (microVAX II) here too, it's not > compatible with a PDP11 CPU. Nope, that uses the memory interconnect stuff. For the /83, you can use either standard (slowish) Qbus memory boards, or the faster PMI-based boards.. not impossible to get, but not easy either. Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 17:32:13 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Dec 9, 3 06:46:37 pm Message-ID: > > The second uses less memory _but_ suppose we use 8 bits for each time > > value. What happens if there's no transition for 256 sample times? I > > think that could happn at the end of a track if you're unlucky. > > A simple RLL scheme could be used to encode longer times perhaps intersector > gaps or what not (say if we use a count of 4 bits, count value 15 means > continue the transition delay with the next nibble) This does, however increase the hardware complexity considerably.... I am not he sort of person who likes using excessive amounts of memory (I have no problems writing micorocontroller programs in 256 bytes or whatever). But I think in this case it makes sense to just buffer the uncompressed data for each cylinder. You can compress it when storing it on the modern hard disk if you like (it becomes a trade-off between data transfer time and compression/decompression time. The actual space taken up on the modern disk is irrelevant, as just about any modern hard disk is large enough to store any ST506 image, even without compression.) > > > > > But both schemes have another, more serious, problem. It's hard to change > > part of the data. You need to be able to re-write part of the track -- in > > particular a single sector. This is trivial on the 'record-the-bitstream' > > method. It's a lot harder if you're recording time values. It's not clear > > just which time values you're replacing (remember this has to be worked > > out in real time at abou 50-80MHz). What do you do if you replace a > > sector with one with more transitions? You have to shuffle all the data > > in the emulaotr's RAM down to make space for the extra transition time > > codes -- again in real time. > > Yes thats an issue with _any_ compression scheme, a linked list might do it True. This is a good reason for not compressing the data in the sector buffer. > though. Remember the the delta T values are not at your 50-80 MHz, only 10 MHz > max. This means that 32 bit memory data rates would be in the 2 Mhz region... Err, hang on... You now want to have a pointer associated with every data word in the RAM (at least 16 bits long, presumably). The compression looks a lot less atractive! You also have the problem of setting up the pointers -- OK, when you start a write you can change the last pointer before the changed block to point to some unused area of RAM, then start storing the new values, but what do you do at the end. You have to point back to the old values that correspond to transistions after the changed region, but how do you find those quicky. And then you have to flag the old area of memory as unused. And you may end up with fragmented gaps in the memory after a number of writes, so you then have to search for unused spavce, again in real time. Personally, I'll just use 2M of RAM (which is not that many chips nowadays...) > > If I had a pound for each time I've been told 'it can be done with an > > FPGA' then I wouldn't be worring about designing a disk emulator. Simply > > because I'd have a complete hard disk _factory_ of my own. > > > > Of course it can be done with an FPGA, but now is not the time to say > > that. Rather, you should be thinking about how to actually design the > > thing (which, BTW, I am doing), and only later worry about building it. > > An FPGA implementation would be cheaper, easier to do, more flexible, easier Cheaper, maybe (but the cost of the development tools and the computer to run them is not zero). Easier to do, not for me. More flexible, it doesn't matter, since provided the emulator works with all ST506 controllers that's all that matters. > to debug (either with simulation or building debugging hardware into the Easier to debug, no way. I've designed with FPGAs, and I've designed with simple logic chips. I know which is easier to debug. You have to be _very_ careful modifying an FPGA design to include debugging pins, etc, sinve re-routing the chip will change the propagation delays (this has bitten me once, and the simulator didn't realise it either!!!) > FPGA), buildable into the future, have higher performance and be more reliable Buildable into the future, no. FPGAs seem to get replaced with new versions far too frequently. On the other hand I have no problems getting simple logic chips. You have to be careful which logic chips you use (anyone desinging with a 7443, for example, is crazy), but simple gates, D-tpyes, JKs, shift registers, etc are not hard to find. Pereformace, it only has to be good enough to replace the ST506 drive. More reliable, Hmmm... I've had a lot more LSI devices fail for no good reason that TTL. I think my TTL-based minicomputers actuallly have the fewest repairs of all the machines I own. I've never changed a TTL chip in a PERQ (I have replaced RAM and the floppy disk data separator. > I have not had that much trouble with simulators, plus if there are free I/O You've been very lucky. THat's all I can say.... Either that, or you've not seriously tested the simulator, you've just trusted it. I have a number of circuits I throw at simulators to see what they make of them... > bits, its easy enough to built some temporary test scafolding into the FPGA. I As I said above, you have to be careful doing this.. > dont think I would like to try getting a 50-80 MHz wire wrapped system working I've done that many times. It's not that hard if you know how to terminate the signals, how to route them, etc. And use twised-pair wire-wrap wire (hint : 3 twists per inch has a characteristic impedance of 100 ohms, or thereabouts). > these days (even finding the DIP parts would be hard) The suppliers over here stock them. Anyway, what's so hard about SMD? > But the FPGA is not a programmed part... only the downloaded bitsream contains That depends o nthe FPGA family, I think. Some of them are programmed internally. > the "program" I dont worry too much about the inexpensive serial EEPROM > that stores the bitstream - they are easy to program (with nothing more than a > parallel port) and cost less than $1.50... As I mentioned above, that's not enough :-). A PIC (16C84, it was at the time, now the 16F84) is trivial to program from a parallel port. But hobbyists wouldn't try it... > I guess I would rather port a design to a new FPGA than have to do a complete > re-design because some particular chip becomes unavailable Alas, often porting to a new FPGA _is_ a complete redesign... Anyway, I've not had any problems finding 'classic' chips. Finding last year's FPGAs, PLDs, or microcontrollers on the other hand.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 18:44:45 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312101104.45317.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 10, 3 11:04:45 am Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 10 December 2003 10:47, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Usually you know the encoding scheme, and I dont see anything wrong > > with using whatever knowledge you have of the interface to optimize > > it. If a different encoding scheme is used, an FPGA based design > > could easily adapt. > > "Knowing the encoding scheme" prevents this from being a "universal" > interface. You'd need to make different version for, say, your PC/XT, > your PDP-11 with an RQDXn, and TeleVideo TS816. (Or shouse I say "my" Let's add the PERQ 2T2, the OMTI5200 series controllers (used in PERQ 3a's, Torch XXX's, etc), the Adaptec ACB4000, the Xebec whatever, the Xeroc Daybreak, another Q-bus PDP11 controller, which pretends to be an RP-something on the PDP11 side (it doesn't use MSCP), and a couple of others. > as those are all system I have that'd benefit from this). At most, (I > think) you'd need a different cable set for all three of these if you > didn't claim to "know" the encoding. Don't all ST506 drives have a 34 pin control connector and a 20 pin data connector? There were a couple of changess to the former (most common being that pin 2 (IIRC) changed from RWC/ to HS3/) but apart from that, the pinout was standardised. > Also, with at least two of these examples, you probably *don't* know the > encoding method... as mentioned earlier, the RQDX(1) isn't based on any > 'standard' controller IC. Also, the TeleVideo's controller is based > upon an 8X300 microprocessor, and may not be RLL/MFM/FM. At least you _could_ trace out the schematics (if you don't already have them) and disassemble the 8X300 code. No I am not suggesting you need to do this, but it's a lot easier than figuring out what happens inside an ASIC.. -tony From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Dec 10 19:25:04 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <200312110059.hBB0xuwj011331@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually a PDP-11/84 uses a Q-Bus CPU in an adapter of some sort, same with > the memory. Indeed. > to check the part number. The other concern is, since you're wanting to run > 2.11BSD, is the disk controller supported? Yes, it is, it emulates a standard KDA50. I run one in a BA23 as well, running 2.11BSD just fine. --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 10 19:33:20 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > Right, one option would be for the emulator to have a FM, MFM or RLL front end > > Oh for %deity's sake... I am sure it was regarded as a Good Thing (if not > essential) that the emulator works with all controllers _without > modification_. In other words, no separate MFM and RLL versions. If its done with a FPGA, the modification is "stiffware only" and does not require new hardware. Plus there are some substantial benefits of decoding the bitstream, one is that now the front end can run much faster (say even 200 MHz) without requiring large and wasteful raw bitstream storage... Since write precomp is in the area of 10-20 ns, if we are worried about undoing write precomp, maybe we should also worry about our recording resolution - preprocessing the input stream makes improving the timing resolution easy... > > In any case, do you know the exact encoding details of every ST506 > controller ever made? I certainly don't, and I've repaired a heck of a > lot of them. No, but 95% of older ones will be MFM... Other than FM, MFM, RLL and some newer ones what other magnetic disk encoding schemes are there? > > If you're going to go far enough to decode the MFM (or whatever) > encoding, you might as well also recognise sectors, etc and just store > the user data (and any filesystem pointers in the headers, etc). This is > very efficient of emulator RAM, but it means you need a different > emulator for each controller/system. And you need to know a lot about how > the controller actually encodes the data. No, I just need the (programmable) front end to do the MFM --> RZ (or RLL --> RZ or GCR --> RZ) data conversion... > > > and actually decode the bitstream. Then the write-precomp could be undone... > > However, for udoing write precompensation, I am not conviced that you > need to know details of the encoding. Precompensation is a kludge to > correct for a magnetic effect on the disk. How the pulses in the > bitstream are shifted should only depend on that bitstream, and not on > the data in encodes or how it encodes it. Therefore it should be possible > to undo it without knowing the encoding method. > > -tony > As I said in an earlier email, you could undo the write precomp by just measuring the deltaT's Peter Wallace From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 10 19:38:03 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: Message-ID: <006b01c3bf87$6b6558c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Qniverter extender for Unibus... ??? New news to me. Actually I should've elaborated. I have 11/23 and 11/73 CPU's here, for trade or use, but not an 11/83. > {memory} boards.. > not impossible to get, but not easy either. I could use an 11/73 memory board, if someone wants to help. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 10 19:37:38 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:47 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? References: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2365.4.20.168.140.1071104134.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3FD7CA62.4050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > If you did decode the data, it would reduce the storage requirements of > the emulator considerably, but it would make it a lot less general-purpose. I don't see how that would make a large difference as you only have 2x increase in data size. Anyhow would not information be saved on a track rather than sector chunk size to ram? While you don't encode data, knowing the data format would help with removing write precom when syncronzing the data to the track bit stream. Ben. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 18:15:57 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <1071053788.8380.14.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 10, 3 10:56:29 am Message-ID: > The world seems to have become a complex place... I miss the days of > command-line mail clients, and if you really wanted to send an > attachment it was a case of encoding it yourself and relying on the > recipient knowing how to decode it... You do realise that's exactly what I do here, still. If I want to send somebody a binary, I normally uuencode it, and pipe the result to mail(1). MIME enocoding is a lot harder for me, so I try to avoid having to do it.... And any mail program that attempts to run anything (binary or macro) automatically is broken. Period. It's as secure as leaving your door keys in the door with a big sign explaining how to use them! -tony From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Dec 10 19:55:32 2003 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The second uses less memory _but_ suppose we use 8 bits for each time > > > value. What happens if there's no transition for 256 sample times? I > > > think that could happn at the end of a track if you're unlucky. > > > > A simple RLL scheme could be used to encode longer times perhaps intersector > > gaps or what not (say if we use a count of 4 bits, count value 15 means > > continue the transition delay with the next nibble) > > This does, however increase the hardware complexity considerably.... > > I am not he sort of person who likes using excessive amounts of memory (I > have no problems writing micorocontroller programs in 256 bytes or > whatever). But I think in this case it makes sense to just buffer the > uncompressed data for each cylinder. You can compress it when storing it > on the modern hard disk if you like (it becomes a trade-off between data > transfer time and compression/decompression time. The actual space taken > up on the modern disk is irrelevant, as just about any modern hard disk > is large enough to store any ST506 image, even without compression.) > > > > > > > > > But both schemes have another, more serious, problem. It's hard to change > > > part of the data. You need to be able to re-write part of the track -- in > > > particular a single sector. This is trivial on the 'record-the-bitstream' > > > method. It's a lot harder if you're recording time values. It's not clear > > > just which time values you're replacing (remember this has to be worked > > > out in real time at abou 50-80MHz). What do you do if you replace a > > > sector with one with more transitions? You have to shuffle all the data > > > in the emulaotr's RAM down to make space for the extra transition time > > > codes -- again in real time. > > > > Yes thats an issue with _any_ compression scheme, a linked list might do it > > True. This is a good reason for not compressing the data in the sector > buffer. > > > though. Remember the the delta T values are not at your 50-80 MHz, only 10 MHz > > max. This means that 32 bit memory data rates would be in the 2 Mhz region... > > Err, hang on... You now want to have a pointer associated with every data > word in the RAM (at least 16 bits long, presumably). The compression > looks a lot less atractive! You also have the problem of setting up the > pointers -- OK, when you start a write you can change the last pointer > before the changed block to point to some unused area of RAM, then start > storing the new values, but what do you do at the end. You have to point > back to the old values that correspond to transistions after the changed > region, but how do you find those quicky. And then you have to flag the > old area of memory as unused. And you may end up with fragmented gaps in > the memory after a number of writes, so you then have to search for > unused spavce, again in real time. Personally, I'll just use 2M of RAM > (which is not that many chips nowadays...) No thats not bad, especially if you use SDRAM, which would be fast enough if a small FIFO is used to smooth out the page crossing delays > > > > If I had a pound for each time I've been told 'it can be done with an > > > FPGA' then I wouldn't be worring about designing a disk emulator. Simply > > > because I'd have a complete hard disk _factory_ of my own. > > > > > > Of course it can be done with an FPGA, but now is not the time to say > > > that. Rather, you should be thinking about how to actually design the > > > thing (which, BTW, I am doing), and only later worry about building it. > > > > An FPGA implementation would be cheaper, easier to do, more flexible, > > easier > > Cheaper, maybe (but the cost of the development tools and the computer to > run them is not zero). Easier to do, not for me. More flexible, it > doesn't matter, since provided the emulator works with all ST506 > controllers that's all that matters. Actually the Xilinx tools are free (Webpack).. Its true you do need a Windows or Linux PC to do the design buts that a big cost item > > > to debug (either with simulation or building debugging hardware into the > > Easier to debug, no way. I've designed with FPGAs, and I've designed with > simple logic chips. I know which is easier to debug. You have to be > _very_ careful modifying an FPGA design to include debugging pins, etc, > sinve re-routing the chip will change the propagation delays (this has > bitten me once, and the simulator didn't realise it either!!!) Unless you are running near the speed limits of the FPGA (we're not!) this is very unlikely to be a problem. Ive been doing hardware design for at least 30 years and FPGAs are a dream compared to the bits-and-pieces way. No way would I ever want to go back... > > > FPGA), buildable into the future, have higher performance and be more reliable > > Buildable into the future, no. FPGAs seem to get replaced with new > versions far too frequently. On the other hand I have no problems getting > simple logic chips. You have to be careful which logic chips you use > (anyone desinging with a 7443, for example, is crazy), but simple gates, > D-tpyes, JKs, shift registers, etc are not hard to find. But the design can be easily ported to new FPGAs I know, I've done it... > > Pereformace, it only has to be good enough to replace the ST506 drive. > > More reliable, Hmmm... I've had a lot more LSI devices fail for no good > reason that TTL. I think my TTL-based minicomputers actuallly have the > fewest repairs of all the machines I own. I've never changed a TTL chip > in a PERQ (I have replaced RAM and the floppy disk data separator. But the reduction in parts count alone would 1. Lower costs considerably 2. Improve reliability compared to a bits-and-pieces approach > > > I have not had that much trouble with simulators, plus if there are free > > I/O > > You've been very lucky. THat's all I can say.... Either that, or you've > not seriously tested the simulator, you've just trusted it. I have a > number of circuits I throw at simulators to see what they make of them... Maybe you've been very unlucky... > > > bits, its easy enough to built some temporary test scafolding into the > > FPGA. I > > As I said above, you have to be careful doing this.. > > > dont think I would like to try getting a 50-80 MHz wire wrapped system working > > I've done that many times. It's not that hard if you know how to > terminate the signals, how to route them, etc. And use twised-pair > wire-wrap wire (hint : 3 twists per inch has a characteristic impedance > of 100 ohms, or thereabouts). Last time I did wire wrap was at least 28 years ago (making a 16K DRAMcard for a TMS9900 system) I dont think I would like to start that again... > > > these days (even finding the DIP parts would be hard) > > The suppliers over here stock them. Anyway, what's so hard about SMD? > > > But the FPGA is not a programmed part... only the downloaded bitsream contains > > That depends o nthe FPGA family, I think. Some of them are programmed > internally. > > > the "program" I dont worry too much about the inexpensive serial EEPROM > > that stores the bitstream - they are easy to program (with nothing more than a > > parallel port) and cost less than $1.50... > > As I mentioned above, that's not enough :-). A PIC (16C84, it was at the > time, now the 16F84) is trivial to program from a parallel port. But > hobbyists wouldn't try it... > > > I guess I would rather port a design to a new FPGA than have to do a > > complete re-design because some particular chip becomes unavailable > > Alas, often porting to a new FPGA _is_ a complete redesign... Not that I've seen and I've done it many a time... > > Anyway, I've not had any problems finding 'classic' chips. Finding last > year's FPGAs, PLDs, or microcontrollers on the other hand.... > > -tony > Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 18:40:14 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Dec 10, 3 07:47:50 am Message-ID: > Usually you know the encoding scheme, and I dont see anything wrong Do you? I don't think I know the exact details of the encoding scheme for half of my computers, and I have schematics for the lot (and service manuals for quite a lot of them). > with using whatever knowledge you have of the interface to optimize it. If a > different encoding scheme is used, an FPGA based design could easily adapt. Only if you really understnad the encoding scheme. And do you really want to have to come up with a new FPGA configuration file for every computer, including ones you've never seen? > > But you're right, its probably possible to undo write-precomp by > simulating the drives tendency to push close transitions apart. I do think > some adjustments are needed per drive type... The write Precomp value is > pretty small - in the order of 5-10 % of the data period. On the older controllers, precompensation was typically done using a delay line (probably 10ns per tap) and a 74153 4-input mux (of which only 3 inputs were used). The 2 contol inputs to the mux was 'early' and 'late' (both deasserted left the bit at the nominal timing position, asserting one of the signals moved it appropriately). The early/late signals generally came from the controller IC if there was one. Or maybe from a little state machine based on the data bitstream. The PERQ 2T2 DIB (Disk Interface Board) has a PAL for this, but alas all the DIBs I have are for drives that do internal precompenastion, and the PAL never asserts either signal. So I don't have the details of the state machine... Of course the delay line and mux could be replicated in the emulator to move the bits back again (all bits are delayed by the same total time, which doesn't really matter, if the controller makes a bit 'late' then we pick if up of an ealier tap of the delay line in the emulator, and vice versa). -tony From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Dec 10 20:32:35 2003 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Alex AVX Series 2 Parallel Computer Message-ID: <0HPP0083SLQ7SZ@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, Does anyone have any info/soft/doc on this machine? Here is some general specs: combined i860 + T805 per node parallel computer. Had anywhere from 24-64 nodes. Ran a modified copy of Trollius. Maybe our Canadian / French readers knows something... Thanks, Ram From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Dec 10 17:25:04 2003 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Xircom parallel-port Ethernet adapters (was Re: USB 5.25 floppy) In-Reply-To: <200312102246.hBAMkEZs006454@onyx.spiritone.com> (Zane H. Healy's message of "Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:46:14 -0800 (PST)") References: <200312102246.hBAMkEZs006454@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200312102325.hBANP59M074743@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > IIRC, if you've got the right software these should work under DOS, they're > definitly of the correct era. The problem is coming up with a copy of > something like PC/TCP. They work. Not too long ago you could even get the drivers from Intel (who bought Xircom) and they were easy to find starting with . For the "something like PC/TCP", look for WATTCP, or for NCSA Telnet -- I think I pulled the latter off a Simtel MS-DOS CD-ROM set from ca. 1995. I think both support packet drivers, and the Xircom/Intel driver set includes a packet driver. NCSA Telnet includes an FTP client so you can use it to move files too. -Frank McConnell From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Dec 10 21:44:30 2003 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312110050.hBB0ovPS032720@spies.com> References: <200312110050.hBB0ovPS032720@spies.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031210194411.06a9a6d0@mail.zipcon.net> couldn't a catweasel be adapted to do this? At 04:50 PM 12/10/03, you wrote: >Something else that would be nice to be able to do with this sort of >hardware would be the ability to read an arbitrarily formatted real >disc drive. The MFM drives in Xerox 6085's and 8010's have 'interesting' >sector formats that can't be read with normal controllers. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Dec 10 23:18:17 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <20031210190131.GF10350@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Dan Wright wrote: > Those USB floppy drives generally use a "SCSI protocol over USB transport" > scheme (this is in fact the way the USB mass-storage standard works AFAIK, so > floppy drives aren't the only things that do this), so I would be VERY > suprised if there's any "standard" floppy drive in there that you could just > swap out for a different type. Actually, I would imagine it's very likely that there's a standard disk drive in there since it would be much easier (and cheaper) to design a simple and cheap floppy interface-to-SCSI converter. But that doesn't necessarily mean that any drive can be run on the converter. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Dec 10 23:19:48 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > This reminds me of the telephone company charging to NOT have your name > > listed in the phone book* (perhaps ink costs MORE when they use less, or > > IIRC, the original purpose of this was to offset the cost of increased load > on the 411 directory information system, presumably because people would > call that after not finding you in the book. But, don't we now pay for 411 > calls? --Patrick Yeah, something like $1 per call after our free allotted 2 calls per month (it used to be four, and then only $.25). This is why I use the internet for everything (which is why the prices for directory assistance keep going up...are you seeing an infinite trend here? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 10 23:54:48 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <200312110050.hBB0ovPS032720@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Dec 10, 3 04:50:57 pm Message-ID: > > > Something else that would be nice to be able to do with this sort of > hardware would be the ability to read an arbitrarily formatted real > disc drive. The MFM drives in Xerox 6085's and 8010's have 'interesting' > sector formats that can't be read with normal controllers. Great minds think alaike (and so do idiots like me). I suggested this in one of my other messages. It wouldn't be too much work -- the data handling part of the emulator/interface is much the same. What you need to do is start sampling the data output from the drive on an index pulse and carry on until the next index pulse (a couple of D-types and a bit of logic here). And have some thingy to select the heads (and sections of the emulator RAM) one after the other, then move the drive onto the next cylinder. THose functions can be done with a microcontroller. It would certainly be useful to do this for machines that can't low-level format the drive (either due to hardware limitations, or due to lack of suitable software). -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 00:16:29 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > Once the apple is hooked to a modern pc (probably a laptop running > windows-xp), what s/w would be best to run on the apple and on the > laptop to get the apple files transferred up to the pc? I really like Procomm Plus For Windows on the PC and ProTerm on the Apple ][. If you need a copy of either then just holler. On the other hand, if you have a Linux box handy, you can log in to a shell session on one of the serial ports and then just dump the files on the Apple side and cat out the data to a file on the Linux box. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 00:17:04 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: USB 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <200312102223.OAA14054@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > The reason I'm stuck using it is my Star Commander workstation is a little > > > 486 laptop with no (working) Ethernet card, so disk images have to get > > > sneaker-netted to and from the dual G4. > > > > Can it use a parallel to ethernet adaptor? I've got two from Xircom, and > > I bought them at a local computer flea market for $5.00 each (well, I > > bought one, my brother bought the other, and then gave it to me when he > > stopped using it). > > The laptop is DOS only -- does it work in DOS mode? Does it come with > TCP/IP support? I've got one of those that I used on my first laptop running DOS and it worked great, but I was running LANtastic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Dec 11 00:35:24 2003 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c3bfb0$f57a7b20$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Other than FM, MFM, RLL and some newer ones what other magnetic > disk encoding > schemes are there? By "RLL" I assume you mean RLL 2,7 (at least 2 transitions in every 7 bit times) - the one that gave about 50% greater capacity than MFM on "the same" drives. "MFM" is technically RLL 1,2 (ISTR) There was also a controller whose name escapes me that used RLL 3,9 to get 90% greater capacity. Andy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 11 01:37:11 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Virus Distribution via this group In-Reply-To: <1071053788.8380.14.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <10312100815.ZM15803@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1071053788.8380.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200312110743.CAA01934@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Whether questionable headers mean that the emails should be flagged > as potential spam is another matter... :-) Well, for a long time I've been rejecting mail with Content-Type: _and_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: but no MIME-Version:. It trips on non-spam once every blue moon or thereabouts (well, actually, probably more often than blue moons: maybe every six months or so) but trips relatively often on spam. > The world seems to have become a complex place... I miss the days of > command-line mail clients, and if you really wanted to send an > attachment it was a case of encoding it yourself and relying on the > recipient knowing how to decode it... Well...the software is stil around. Even the recipients who knew what to do when they see a "begin 644 fnord.tar.gz" line are still around. The trouble is, they're drowned out by the hordes who wouldn't recognize btoa output if it bit them. :-( Nowadays you have to do protocol first to ensure that you can agree on compression and encoding methods. (And if I want to create a message with "attachments", I go up and edit the Content-Type: header by hand, run the binary blobs through "base64 -e", edit in the separator lines...and occasionally get it wrong, but oh well.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 11 02:37:26 2003 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Reel-to-Reel care? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312110839.DAA02279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > This reminds me of the telephone company charging to NOT have your > name listed in the phone book Or their charging more to not turn off DTMF dialing. (Which actually the CRTC let them get away with refusing to do unless your line is one of the few that got grandfathered in as a no-DTMF service; I would much prefer they'd made Bell be honest about the rate increase.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Zubla2001 at aol.com Thu Dec 11 02:48:23 2003 From: Zubla2001 at aol.com (Zubla2001@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? Message-ID: <1a4.1db0d904.2d098957@aol.com> > I have some old programs from my HP2000 days that I downloaded to > APPLE-2 diskette (DOS 3.3 and PRODOS). > > Any ideas on the easiest way to get that source uploaded to a network > connected system which should then be able to easily > paste them into a terminal session and get the code active again? > > I have an APPLE //c, a II+ and a IIE. I appreciate any ideas on this one. Bob, I used an Apple serial card, a null modem cable, and a simple BASIC program to use the serial port. There have been some Apple emulators. Does anyone know if any of them can read Apple 5.25" floppies? I know that in the evolution of 5.25" drives and densities, there was the issue of wide heads, wide write tracks, and later heads and tracks were narrower. Was it that modern heads could read earlier tracks? Greg From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 11 04:35:38 2003 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 systems available References: <3FD70CAE.56DD613@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3FD8487B.C39F7911@cs.ubc.ca> Over half-a-dozen people have expressed interest in everything from entire systems to simply manuals. I'm quite surprised by the number of responses! ... I may need a small spreadsheet to keep it all organised. To everyone who responded: I phoned today and the principal in this is away on holidays for another week or so. When he returns I will endeavor to find out more precisely what is available, when, and for how long, then start trying to figure out how it can be distributed. Priority will be given to complete systems, ahead of breaking them up. (Even with that said there may be more demand than supply (I was expecting the reverse!).) (Thanks also for all those responses about 9-track tapes.) From luigi.serrantoni at tin.it Thu Dec 11 06:00:12 2003 From: luigi.serrantoni at tin.it (Luigi Serrantoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 References: Message-ID: <001801c3bfde$554906c0$0b01a8c0@hfghf> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Witchy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 8:09 PM Subject: RE: Multitech Microprofessor MPF-1 > Hi, > > MPF BASIC starts at $0800 assuming you have the BASIC ROM installed...... > > cheers Oh yes, it works!!!!! it's strange the starting adress is in the monitor eprom and not in the basic eprom anyway it works :-) thanks a lot!!!!! Luigi From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 06:17:17 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071144303.2392.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 23:50, Tony Duell wrote: > Some controller have links to enable/disable precompensation. The Adaptec > ACB4000 (I mention that one, since I have an ACW on the bench at the > moment, so the details are stuck in my brain) Oh, that reminds me - I came across another ACW owner last night. Waiting to hear what (if any) docs / software he has for it. > 4) With a few slight hardware changes (specifically related to the 'head' > selection and index pulse), the emulator could be connected to the > original ST506 _drive_ and make an image copy of it onto the modern disk. > This would be useful for machines that can't do a low-level format > (again, the HP9133 springs to mind) since such an image copy would copy > the low-level format too. The modern hard disk could then be connected to > a normal emulator and used to replace the ST506 drive in the classic > computer. That, I think, is a must, compared to having to design something else entirely to read the data off the drive in the first place. And as you say, hopefully it isn't too complex to achieve. >> Having one drive per classic doesn't help a) at all, but reliable >> drives in the order of 1GB or so can be found for free and are >> likely to keep > > The simplest hardware would seem to take 2-3Gbytes for a maximum-size > ST506 image. Most will be a lot smaller than that. I think 20-40Gbyte > IDE drives are pretty cheap now.... Presumably there's nothing to stop data being compressed/decompressed at the 'new' hard drive level, providing the emulator is fast enough to do this. Unless your ST506 (for the sake of argument) drive contained a single huge compressed file originally, compression level should be reasonably good. >> (I'd still much rather use SCSI drives as that's what I have >> spares of - I don't keep IDE drives lying around) > > I don't have either 'spare'. It really comes down to which makes the > hardware interface easier. I'd like to try DMA (see the other message) > this is not too hard on a SCSI drive, I think it's OK on most > modern-ish IDE drives. Fair call. The shorter cable lengths of IDE *might* be a problem with mounting in some machines I suppose, but it isn't a biggie. Getting something that works for the first version is better than nothing :-) >> Point c) about backup can be rethought. All the interface needs is >> *some* way of getting data out of it (and back into it, presumably :) > > A really kludgy way to do this is to pull the drive from the > emulator, cable it up to a PC, and copy the image over using dd > or something. Not elegant, but it'll work (remember the data on > the modern drive is stored in normal sectors on said drive, so > a PC can read it, even if it can't make sense of it). Absolutely. That's how I back up some of my classics with SCSI drives at the moment :) It, presumably, would not be difficult to stick a serial port on this thing for some sort of rudimentary control; there are likely parameters which it would be handy to be able to set up remotely without delving inside the classic machine hosting the emulator anyway. Transferring 2-3GB across a serial line isn't really viable (serveral days to transfer!) but for the more common classic drives in the 10-30MB range I imagine it's viable. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 06:44:05 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <200312071137.35349.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> <200312071137.35349.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1071145915.2393.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 19:37, Lyle Bickley wrote: > However, by making a conversion cable you can use any sgi -/+12V keyboard/ > mouse using an EIA-232 interface. I've done this for my 4D/25 and it works > great. Any of the Single Tower, Twin Tower or Predator (Case types) > keyboard/mouses will work; i.e., Crimson, etc. Interesting. I've only worked with Origin 200/2000 SGI machines so don't know much about any of the older systems or the desktops. Any idea if an Indigo keyboard is compatible? Reason I ask is that the guy who's disposing of the machine has found a website describing a convertor to allow a stock PS/2 keyboard and mouse to be used with an Indigo. If the 4D can use an Indigo keyboard then it should work with this convertor, which would be a start... cheers! Jules From jrice54 at charter.net Thu Dec 11 06:54:43 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <1071145915.2393.31.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> <200312071137.35349.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1071145915.2393.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3FD86913.7030902@charter.net> From "this Old Sgi" http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2258/4dfaq.html#pwrkeyboard > > Keyboard and Mouse > > The Power Series family uses a DB15 serial keyboard connector with the > same specifications as the Professional Series family. Indeed, by > wiring up an appropriate adaptor cable, you can use any of the SGI > proprietary keyboards (SGI #950-0801-xxx) with the Professional, > Power, Personal IRIS and Indigo series machines. The same goes for the > mouse, which simply daisychains off of the keyboard. For more > information, check the chapter in the /*Professional Series*/ section > of this document entitled Keyboard and Mouse > . From "Chan's Pinout Page" http://www.meadow.net/pinouts.html#sgikeydb9 > Mini-DIN-6 keyboard connectors are found on Indigo, Indigo2, Indy, O2, > Octane, and Onyx systems. This pinout is for Indigo systems which _is > not_ P/S2 compatible. The pin assignments for the Indigo keyboard > connector are shown in the following table: > > ------ > / 5 3 \ > | --- 1 | > | --- 2 | > \ 6 4 / > ------ > > Pin Assignments > ___________________ > Pin_|_Description__ > 1 | KRCD Keyboard Receive > 2 | MRCD Mouse Receive > 3 | GND Ground > 4 | Power +8V > 5 | KTXD Keyboard Transmit > 6 | Power -8v > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Older SGI systems used a DB15 connector for the keyboard and mouse, > with either a DIN6 or DB9 connector at the keyboard end. Here's the > pinouts for the DB15-DIN6 cable: > > DB15 Male DIN 6 Signal/Signal > --------- ----- ------------- > 2 3 Gnd/Gnd > 4 1 K_TXD/K_RXD > 5 5 K_RXD/K_TXD > 9 4 +12/+8 > 10 2 M_TXD/M_RXD > 15 6 ???/??? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > And here's the pinouts for the DB15-DB9 keyboard cable: > > DB15 Male DB-9 Signal/Signal > --------- ----- ------------- > 1 - Ground > 2 6 Ground > 3 9 Ground > 4 2 K_TXD/K_RXD > 5 8 K_RXD/K_TXD > 7 7 +12 > 8 - +12 > 9 - +12 > 10 5 M_TXD/M_RXD > 15 4 -12 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > SGI P/S2 Keyboard and Mouse to RJ45 plug, using (2) mini-din6 > connectors to (1) RJ45 plug. > Use to extend mouse & keyboard connections with RJ45 cable. ONLY for > SGI systems that have P/S 2 compatible ports (Indy, Indigo2, O2, etc). > > This is a "Y" cable; two mini-din6 connectors are wired to one RJ45 > plug. A pair of adaptors is needed, one mini-din6 female set, and one > mini-din6 male set. Custom made by Anixter 408/435-1212, but SGI I/S > stocks them internally- contact alex@csd.sgi.com. $20.75 each, so pair > is $41.50. Mark Aubin aubin@asd.sgi.com > > Mini-Din6 #1 RJ45 plug >(male or female) > ------------ --------- > 5 1 > 4 2 > 3 3 > 1 4 > Mini-Din6 #2 > ------------- > 5 5 > 4 6 > 3 7 > 1 8 > Jules Richardson wrote: >On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 19:37, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > >>However, by making a conversion cable you can use any sgi -/+12V keyboard/ >>mouse using an EIA-232 interface. I've done this for my 4D/25 and it works >>great. Any of the Single Tower, Twin Tower or Predator (Case types) >>keyboard/mouses will work; i.e., Crimson, etc. >> >> > >Interesting. I've only worked with Origin 200/2000 SGI machines so don't >know much about any of the older systems or the desktops. > >Any idea if an Indigo keyboard is compatible? Reason I ask is that the >guy who's disposing of the machine has found a website describing a >convertor to allow a stock PS/2 keyboard and mouse to be used with an >Indigo. > >If the 4D can use an Indigo keyboard then it should work with this >convertor, which would be a start... > >cheers! > >Jules > > > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From jrice54 at charter.net Thu Dec 11 07:08:14 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <1071145915.2393.31.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> <200312071137.35349.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1071145915.2393.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3FD86C3E.7000007@charter.net> You can use the Indigo keyboard. I'd modify the adapter to use a "d" series connector instead of the mini-din the site shows. In fact there is a guy selling assembled and tested adapters on ebay. I've had good luck finding the Indigo keyboards in a couple of surplus stores that deal with "PC" parts. The Sgi keyboards get thrown in the junk bins because they don't come with a cord attached and the employee's are too lazy to look for a din6 m-m cable. It's a good thing too, because you will kill the keyboard plugging it into a PS2 port and since they are untested, I usually pay under $5 for a keyboard. I haven't found a dead one yet. As for Indigo mice, I've bought two bulk lots of used Indigo mice from ebay in the past few months. I paid around $15.00 for 6-8 mice in each. Most worked. I've adopted a lot of Indigo's recently. I think I've got 8 up and running so far. James Jules Richardson wrote: >Interesting. I've only worked with Origin 200/2000 SGI machines so don't >know much about any of the older systems or the desktops. > >Any idea if an Indigo keyboard is compatible? Reason I ask is that the >guy who's disposing of the machine has found a website describing a >convertor to allow a stock PS/2 keyboard and mouse to be used with an >Indigo. > >If the 4D can use an Indigo keyboard then it should work with this >convertor, which would be a start... > >cheers! > >Jules > > > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 08:12:10 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: SGI 4D/25 Personal Iris keyboard and mouse In-Reply-To: <3FD86C3E.7000007@charter.net> References: <1070822754.6724.115.camel@weka.localdomain> <200312071137.35349.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1071145915.2393.31.camel@weka.localdomain> <3FD86C3E.7000007@charter.net> Message-ID: <1071151198.2392.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 13:08, James Rice wrote: > You can use the Indigo keyboard. Sweet. I think I forgot the actual site address from the original post, so for the curious (and archies) it's here: http://rshockley.dyndns.org/indigo.htm Perhaps the same chap who's selling them on ebay. > I've had good luck finding the Indigo keyboards in a couple of > surplus stores that deal with "PC" parts. They seem to be a little more hard to come by on this side of the pond; in fact all SGI stuff does. I remember talking to a couple of SGI employees when I was using their machines for projects a couple of years ago, and they were most annoyed that anything obsolete coming in as part of upgrades etc. from customers was crushed. Sounds like I can get things up and running with a PS/2 keyboard for now. I'll give you a yell about the surplus mouse that you mentioned if a suitable keyboard crops up. cheers, Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 11 08:08:05 2003 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: DEC VT420 terminals on VCM References: <3FD64B0F.3060308@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <003a01c3bff0$32bfe940$033310ac@kwcorp.com> There's a nice clean looking one on ebay right now. > Know anyone with a Dec VT100 in very clean working condition??? I > would like to have one hooked up to my system for nostalgia's sake. > > > > Curt --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From chrisc at addpower.com Thu Dec 11 09:49:03 2003 From: chrisc at addpower.com (Christopher Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time Message-ID: The M8190 was salvaged from a PDP-11/23 backplane where it had been running, so I assumed that it would work in a QBUS setup. Is there an easy way to tell whether the card is really Unibus or QBUS? > > M8190-AB (11/84 cpu) > > I separated the '84 CPU because it's oops Unibus and not > Qbus. Everything else you have listed is Qbus. The busses > don't mix. Actually a PDP-11/84 uses a Q-Bus CPU in an adapter of some sort, same with the memory. My concerns with what I see listed above are if the memory will work with the CPU (did it come out of the same system?), I don't have time to check the part number. The other concern is, since you're wanting to run 2.11BSD, is the disk controller supported? From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 11 09:48:41 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Christopher Cureau wrote: > The M8190 was salvaged from a PDP-11/23 backplane where it had been > running, so I assumed that it would work in a QBUS setup. Is there an easy > way to tell whether the card is really Unibus or QBUS? 8190 is 11/83, Qbus. as said, an 11/84 *cpu* simply doesn't exist. it was an 11/83 cpu, with a qbus-to-unibus extender. --f From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 11 09:26:42 2003 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Parallel Port Ethernet and DOS (was Re: USB 5.25 floppy) In-Reply-To: <200312102327.PAA15552@floodgap.com> References: <200312102327.PAA15552@floodgap.com> Message-ID: >Hmm. I'll have to see if the Mac version can act as a server so I can >connect from one to the other (I'm stuck on a PC at work a/t/m). I have done this between my Mac Plus and Rainbow. Worked fine over *serial* (no ethernet on the Rainbow). -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 11 10:26:46 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Xircom parallel-port Ethernet adapters (was Re: USB 5.25 floppy) In-Reply-To: <200312102325.hBANP59M074743@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Frank McConnell wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > IIRC, if you've got the right software these should work under DOS, they're > > definitly of the correct era. The problem is coming up with a copy of > > something like PC/TCP. Parallel ethernet devices work fine under DOS. They are inherently slow, of course, but for most interactive work that is not an issue. Assuming raw DOS, you can either use the Microsoft Client stack (and their NDIS2-compliant driver interface, quite often supported by the device manufacturers), or you can use a FTP/Crynwr packet driver compliant driver, and use free packages like NCSA Telnet, Kermit-PC or such. I personally always used FTP's PC/TCP, and, for standalone stuff, a nicely configured Kermit-PC setup. I probably still have all that stuff. I *know* I have the MSClient stuff (since that is what I use these days) and the Kermit-PC stuff. Dunno about the PC/TCP and/or B&W packages. Wasnt there a version of pcXWin32 that did packet drivers? That stuff gave you Telnet, and full X11R5 on a raw DOS box :) --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Dec 11 07:45:43 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I have linux on a pc or laptop, how do I get a shell session running on the serial port? Does it automatically start a getty on serial ports? If so, than just having a terminal program that could send text on the apple would do it? I don't have proterm for the apple...would that be a good solution for my problem (to either send to procomm plus (which I also don't have) or do a linux system)? thanks! -Bob >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > Once the apple is hooked to a modern pc (probably a laptop running > > windows-xp), what s/w would be best to run on the apple and on the > > laptop to get the apple files transferred up to the pc? > >I really like Procomm Plus For Windows on the PC and ProTerm on the Apple >][. If you need a copy of either then just holler. > >On the other hand, if you have a Linux box handy, you can log in to a >shell session on one of the serial ports and then just dump the files on >the Apple side and cat out the data to a file on the Linux box. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Dec 11 07:46:25 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <1a4.1db0d904.2d098957@aol.com> References: <1a4.1db0d904.2d098957@aol.com> Message-ID: If an apple emulator could read the disks, that would be a LOT simpler. -Bob > > I have some old programs from my HP2000 days that I downloaded to > > APPLE-2 diskette (DOS 3.3 and PRODOS). > > > > Any ideas on the easiest way to get that source uploaded to a network > > connected system which should then be able to easily > > paste them into a terminal session and get the code active again? > > > > I have an APPLE //c, a II+ and a IIE. I appreciate any ideas on this one. > >Bob, >I used an Apple serial card, a null modem cable, and a simple BASIC >program to use the serial port. > >There have been some Apple emulators. >Does anyone know if any of them can read Apple 5.25" floppies? >I know that in the evolution of 5.25" drives and densities, there was >the issue of wide heads, wide write tracks, and later heads and >tracks were narrower. Was it that modern heads could read earlier tracks? > >Greg bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 11 10:53:25 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312111153.25406.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 11 December 2003 08:45, Bob Brown wrote: > If I have linux on a pc or laptop, how do I get a shell session > running on the serial port? Does it automatically start a getty on > serial ports? If so, than just having a terminal program that could > send text on the apple would do it? You don't need to run a getty running to transfer the data... getty is only necessary if you want to be able to log into the machine from a serial "terminal." All you should need to do on the host (Linux machine) side is start up a terminal emulator (such as Minicom or Kermit) and tell it to log the 'session' to a file. > I don't have proterm for the apple...would that be a good solution > for my problem (to either send to procomm plus (which I also don't > have) or do a linux system)? There's a command you can use in Applesoft Basic to redirect console I/O to a card in one of its slots - eg, the Super-Serial card. I don't know what it is, and can't find a refernce to it using google. Does someone else on the list remember how to do this? > >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > Once the apple is hooked to a modern pc (probably a laptop > > > running windows-xp), what s/w would be best to run on the apple > > > and on the laptop to get the apple files transferred up to the > > > pc? > > > >I really like Procomm Plus For Windows on the PC and ProTerm on the > > Apple ][. If you need a copy of either then just holler. > > > >On the other hand, if you have a Linux box handy, you can log in to > > a shell session on one of the serial ports and then just dump the > > files on the Apple side and cat out the data to a file on the Linux > > box. > > > >-- > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >----------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Dec 11 11:04:43 2003 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Free Stuff Message-ID: <3FD8A3AB.4030203@theriver.com> Hi All, Got a whole pallet load of old documentation for $2 at the local University Auction. Some Stuff I'm keeping but if anybody is interested in some of the other stuff, its your's for the cost of shipping, probably USPS media mail, or UPS at your choice. Free to good home: Evans and Sutherland PS 390 Documentation Set (circa 1987) 4 Full size Binders including Hardware and Software documentation. OSF/1 manuals all topics about 40 or 50 manuals all together. I'll keep a few, but the rest go. Digital Unix manuals, about a dozen, all topics. most are the usual software documentation. Digital VMS 6.2 manuals almost a complete set. These are not the big "grey wall" of dec binders but the newer paperback manuals. All of the manuals are in Great condition. It looks as some have never been used. I will have a list of the OSF/1, DEC Unix and VMS manuals in the next few days,(as I go through them) but if your looking for a special one, contact me off-list. Remember as I'm doing this for free (ie cost of shipping) it might be a while before I get them sent. Also, the last time I did this, I got burnt by some on this list who never sent me the shipping costs, so this time shipping costs up front. Thanks Tom Ponsford From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Dec 11 11:04:43 2003 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Free Stuff Message-ID: <3FD8A3AB.4030203@theriver.com> Hi All, Got a whole pallet load of old documentation for $2 at the local University Auction. Some Stuff I'm keeping but if anybody is interested in some of the other stuff, its your's for the cost of shipping, probably USPS media mail, or UPS at your choice. Free to good home: Evans and Sutherland PS 390 Documentation Set (circa 1987) 4 Full size Binders including Hardware and Software documentation. OSF/1 manuals all topics about 40 or 50 manuals all together. I'll keep a few, but the rest go. Digital Unix manuals, about a dozen, all topics. most are the usual software documentation. Digital VMS 6.2 manuals almost a complete set. These are not the big "grey wall" of dec binders but the newer paperback manuals. All of the manuals are in Great condition. It looks as some have never been used. I will have a list of the OSF/1, DEC Unix and VMS manuals in the next few days,(as I go through them) but if your looking for a special one, contact me off-list. Remember as I'm doing this for free (ie cost of shipping) it might be a while before I get them sent. Also, the last time I did this, I got burnt by some on this list who never sent me the shipping costs, so this time shipping costs up front. Thanks Tom Ponsford From jpdavis at gorge.net Thu Dec 11 10:41:12 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 Message-ID: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I would like to track down the bastard that ripped me off a long time ago. This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. Jim Davis. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Dec 11 11:44:58 2003 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20031211124458.008064b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Do you have the serial number? You should report it to Steve Gabaly (SP?). He was keeping a list of all the Altair serial numbers that he could find. I don't have his e-mail address any more but he's Obtronix on E-bay. Joe At 08:41 AM 12/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I >would like to track down the bastard >that ripped me off a long time ago. >This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other >people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. >His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. >Jim Davis. > > > From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Dec 11 11:54:14 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <200312111153.25406.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200312111153.25406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: You can redirect console I/O, but what I have isn't a program..it's in a file...so something needs to send this file accross the line to the modern computer (linux or otherwise). -Bob >On Thursday 11 December 2003 08:45, Bob Brown wrote: > > If I have linux on a pc or laptop, how do I get a shell session > > running on the serial port? Does it automatically start a getty on > > serial ports? If so, than just having a terminal program that could > > send text on the apple would do it? > >You don't need to run a getty running to transfer the data... getty is >only necessary if you want to be able to log into the machine from a >serial "terminal." All you should need to do on the host (Linux >machine) side is start up a terminal emulator (such as Minicom or >Kermit) and tell it to log the 'session' to a file. > > > I don't have proterm for the apple...would that be a good solution > > for my problem (to either send to procomm plus (which I also don't > > have) or do a linux system)? > >There's a command you can use in Applesoft Basic to redirect console I/O >to a card in one of its slots - eg, the Super-Serial card. I don't >know what it is, and can't find a refernce to it using google. Does >someone else on the list remember how to do this? > > > >On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > > Once the apple is hooked to a modern pc (probably a laptop > > > > running windows-xp), what s/w would be best to run on the apple > > > > and on the laptop to get the apple files transferred up to the > > > > pc? > > > > > >I really like Procomm Plus For Windows on the PC and ProTerm on the > > > Apple ][. If you need a copy of either then just holler. > > > > > >On the other hand, if you have a Linux box handy, you can log in to > > > a shell session on one of the serial ports and then just dump the > > > files on the Apple side and cat out the data to a file on the Linux > > > box. > > > > > >-- > > > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > Computer Festival > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > > Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > > Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator > > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCS >Information Technology at Purdue >Research Computing and Storage >http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Dec 11 11:59:18 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <200312111153.25406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > There's a command you can use in Applesoft Basic to redirect console I/O > to a card in one of its slots - eg, the Super-Serial card. I don't > know what it is, and can't find a refernce to it using google. Does > someone else on the list remember how to do this? Probably "PR#2", and "IN#2" (Presuming of course the SS card is in slot 2. (No, I can't remember the correct order though, so you may be typing blind) Speaking of A2 file transfers, anyone know how to get a A2-GS on a CAT-5 ethernet network? (And roughly how much it'd costs?) For file transfers, Serial tends to be too flakey, and slow for my tastes. I presume I'd need netatalk on the "server side", not certain what I'd need on the GS side? I've Linux, Solaris, IRIX, and (unfortunately) Windoze handy. No Macintoshes though. thanks, David PS: Costs.. Think US funds, I'm in Ohio. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 11 12:33:32 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: from David Holland at "Dec 11, 3 12:59:18 pm" Message-ID: <200312111833.KAA12476@floodgap.com> > Speaking of A2 file transfers, anyone know how to get a A2-GS > on a CAT-5 ethernet network? (And roughly how much it'd costs?) > For file transfers, Serial tends to be too flakey, and slow > for my tastes. > > I presume I'd need netatalk on the "server side", not certain > what I'd need on the GS side? > > I've Linux, Solaris, IRIX, and (unfortunately) Windoze handy. > No Macintoshes though. My IIgs is on the apartment Ethernet, although more or less per kludge. I have a Dayna EtherPrint-T box that converts LocalTalk, of which I have a number of systems running (a Mac Plus, an old PC using an Apple ISA card, an SE/30 and the IIgs), into EtherTalk and emits it over the main apartment backbone. The IIgs is plugged into the LocalTalk segment and shares files with the NetBSD server running netatalk (ironically, it's a Mac IIci, but this should work fine with any Unix-based system with support ... I did have to recompile the kernel to allow DDP traffic). Note, that's netatalk, not netatalk-asun ... never used the latter. Sneaker-netting floppies is also potentially viable, but you really do need a Mac for that. An old one will do, and would probably be even suitable *and* appropriate. My workstation IIci does regular duty as an imaging system, since it can image MS-DOS HD/DD floppies, Mac GCR 400K floppies, Mac 800K and HD floppies, and ProDOS floppies. God bless PC File Exchange and System 7.1. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Ninety-nine percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 11 12:36:49 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <200312111833.KAA12476@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Dec 11, 3 10:33:32 am" Message-ID: <200312111836.KAA15084@floodgap.com> > Sneaker-netting floppies is also potentially viable, but you really do > need a Mac for that. An old one will do, and would probably be even > suitable *and* appropriate. My workstation IIci does regular duty as an > imaging system, since it can image MS-DOS HD/DD floppies, Mac GCR 400K > floppies, Mac 800K and HD floppies, and ProDOS floppies. God bless PC > File Exchange and System 7.1. Oops, one warning that bears repeating ... this applies to ProDOS 3.5" floppies only. NEVER EVER PLUG AN APPLE II 5.25" DRIVE INTO A MAC!!! The plug is the same, but the pinouts are horribly different, and this can easily destroy the computer's FDC so thoroughly even the internal drive won't work. The later Apple II series 3.5" drives can be safely attached to any Mac with a floppy port. Only the 5.25" drives (*all of them,* even the last revision of the UniDisk) are totally, utterly incompatible. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- I am an unmitigated Macintosh bigot. So there. ----------------------------- From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Dec 11 12:30:48 2003 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 In-Reply-To: <200312111836.KAA15084@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 11, 03 10:36:49 am Message-ID: <200312111830.NAA30356@wordstock.com> And thusly Cameron Kaiser spake: > > Oops, one warning that bears repeating ... this applies to ProDOS 3.5" > floppies only. NEVER EVER PLUG AN APPLE II 5.25" DRIVE INTO A MAC!!! > The plug is the same, but the pinouts are horribly different, and this > can easily destroy the computer's FDC so thoroughly even the internal drive > won't work. > > The later Apple II series 3.5" drives can be safely attached to any Mac > with a floppy port. Only the 5.25" drives (*all of them,* even the last > revision of the UniDisk) are totally, utterly incompatible. > I wonder what was going through the mind of the person who decided on the design of the Macs port connectors? "Oh we have a warehouse full of old connectors. Lets use those!" Kinda like thinking it would be a good idea to use the same plug type for 120V and 240V... Cheers, Bryan Pope From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Dec 11 12:38:04 2003 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Free Stuff-LIST In-Reply-To: <3FD8A3AB.4030203@theriver.com> References: <3FD8A3AB.4030203@theriver.com> Message-ID: <3FD8B98C.2070609@theriver.com> Hi all The Evans and Sutherland manuals have been spoken for: Remember first come first served with priority to those who take the most stuff!! Ok, here is a partial list of the DEC stuff: The VMS stuff is too much for me to list today, besides most of it I put in my storage. Its about 4-5 of those plastic 25 gallon storage boxes. But here is the OSF and DEC Unix stuff: ########################################################### DEC OSF/1 8/94 Title Dec # Copies DecWindows Users Guide AA-Q917A-TE 2 Technical OverView AA-Q0R18-TE 1 Dec Verifier and Execiser Tool Users Guide AA-PttMB-TE 2 Calling Standard for AXP Systems AA-PYBAB-TE 2 DecWindows Extensionto Motif AA-QBYSA-TE 1 X Window System Environment AA-Q7RNA-TE 2 Writing Device Drivers Advanced Topics AA-Q7RPA-TE 1 Digital Portable Mathematics Library AA-PUBXB-TK 2 DEveloping Application for the Display Postcript System AA-Q15WA-TE 1 DECWindows Motif Guide to Appplication Programm. AA-QBYTA-TE 2 Assembly Language Programming Guide AA-PS31C-TE 2 Programming with ONC RPC AA-QOR5A-TE 2 Programming Support Tools AA-PS3@C-TE 3 Writing Software for the International Market AA-QoFMB-TE 2 Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 Migration Guide AA-PS3EC-TE 1 DecWindows Extension to Motif AA-QBYSA-TE 1 Programmers Guide AA-PS30C-TE 2 Guide to DECThreads AA-Q2DPB-TK 2 Network Programmer Guide AA-PS2WC-TE 2 Guide to Realtime programming AA-PS33C-TE 2 Network Administration and Problem Solving AA-PS2SB-TE 2 Network Configuration AA-PS2GC-TE 1 Command Shell and USers Guide AA-PS2HC-TE 2 Dec OSF/1 Technical Overview AA-QoR1B-TE 1 Documentation Overview Glossary and master Index AA-PS2JC-TE 3 Guide to Prestoserve AA-PqToC-TE 2 Software License Mgmt. AA-POTOC-TE 2 Kernel DEbugging AA-PS2TD-TE 1 DecWindows Companion to the OSF/Motif Style Guide AA-QBYUA-TE 2 Asynchronous Transfer Mode AA-QDP5B-TE 2 #################################################### Digital Unix july 1985 Installation Guide AA-PS2DF-TE 2 Release Notes AA-PS2BF-TE 3 Logical Storage manager AA-Q3NCD-TE 2 DECladebug Debugging manual: Command-Line Interface AA-PZ7ED-TE 2 Sharing Software on a local Area Network AA-P53LD-TE 1 Security AA-Q0R2C-TE 1 System Tuning and Performance Management AA-q0R3D-TE 1 Writing VMEBus Device Drivers AA-Q0R7D-TE 2 Writing PCI Bus Device Drivers AA-Q7RQB-TE ######################################### In Addition I'll have some old sun stuff, some old SGI manuals and various old computer manuals. As sson as I can get around to going through this stuff. Tom Tom Ponsford wrote: > Hi All, > > Got a whole pallet load of old documentation for $2 at the local > University Auction. > Some Stuff I'm keeping but if anybody is interested in some of the other > stuff, its your's for the cost of shipping, probably USPS media mail, or > UPS at your choice. > > Free to good home: > > Evans and Sutherland PS 390 Documentation Set (circa 1987) > 4 Full size Binders including Hardware and Software documentation. > > OSF/1 manuals all topics about 40 or 50 manuals all together. I'll keep > a few, but the rest go. > > Digital Unix manuals, about a dozen, all topics. most are the usual > software documentation. > > Digital VMS 6.2 manuals almost a complete set. These are not the big > "grey wall" of dec binders but the newer paperback manuals. > > All of the manuals are in Great condition. It looks as some have never > been used. > > I will have a list of the OSF/1, DEC Unix and VMS manuals in the next > few days,(as I go through them) but if your looking for a special one, > contact me off-list. > > Remember as I'm doing this for free (ie cost of shipping) it might be a > while before I get them sent. > > Also, the last time I did this, I got burnt by some on this list who > never sent me the shipping costs, so this time shipping costs up front. > > Thanks > > Tom Ponsford > > From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Dec 11 13:49:02 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Message-ID: <005001c3c01f$d447cba0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> was it an a or a b? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Stolen altair 8800 > Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I > would like to track down the bastard > that ripped me off a long time ago. > This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other > people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. > His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. > Jim Davis. > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Dec 11 13:49:02 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Message-ID: <005001c3c01f$d447cba0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> was it an a or a b? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Stolen altair 8800 > Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I > would like to track down the bastard > that ripped me off a long time ago. > This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other > people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. > His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. > Jim Davis. > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Dec 11 13:49:55 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Message-ID: <005401c3c01f$f3f8e4c0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> email me his name off list please..... ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Stolen altair 8800 > Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I > would like to track down the bastard > that ripped me off a long time ago. > This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other > people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. > His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. > Jim Davis. > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Dec 11 13:49:55 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:48 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Message-ID: <005401c3c01f$f3f8e4c0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> email me his name off list please..... ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Stolen altair 8800 > Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I > would like to track down the bastard > that ripped me off a long time ago. > This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other > people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. > His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. > Jim Davis. > > > > From patrick at evocative.com Thu Dec 11 13:05:29 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <005001c3c01f$d447cba0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: > He ripped off a bunch of other people, IMHO, Jim Willing [snip] Speaking of ripped off and Jim Willing, has anybody heard from him, or is perhaps willing (no pun intended) to disclose his whereabouts? --Patrick From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Dec 11 12:58:15 2003 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Free Stuff-LIST] Message-ID: <3FD8BE47.3040704@theriver.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Free Stuff-LIST Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:38:04 -0700 From: Tom Ponsford To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only References: <3FD8A3AB.4030203@theriver.com> Hi all Forgot to mention my Zip is 85630 (SE Arizona) The Evans and Sutherland manuals have been spoken for: Remember first come first served with priority to those who take the most stuff!! Ok, here is a partial list of the DEC stuff: The VMS stuff is too much for me to list today, besides most of it I put in my storage. Its about 4-5 of those plastic 25 gallon storage boxes. But here is the OSF and DEC Unix stuff: ########################################################### DEC OSF/1 8/94 Title Dec # Copies DecWindows Users Guide AA-Q917A-TE 2 Technical OverView AA-Q0R18-TE 1 Dec Verifier and Execiser Tool Users Guide AA-PttMB-TE 2 Calling Standard for AXP Systems AA-PYBAB-TE 2 DecWindows Extensionto Motif AA-QBYSA-TE 1 X Window System Environment AA-Q7RNA-TE 2 Writing Device Drivers Advanced Topics AA-Q7RPA-TE 1 Digital Portable Mathematics Library AA-PUBXB-TK 2 DEveloping Application for the Display Postcript System AA-Q15WA-TE 1 DECWindows Motif Guide to Appplication Programm. AA-QBYTA-TE 2 Assembly Language Programming Guide AA-PS31C-TE 2 Programming with ONC RPC AA-QOR5A-TE 2 Programming Support Tools AA-PS3@C-TE 3 Writing Software for the International Market AA-QoFMB-TE 2 Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 Migration Guide AA-PS3EC-TE 1 DecWindows Extension to Motif AA-QBYSA-TE 1 Programmers Guide AA-PS30C-TE 2 Guide to DECThreads AA-Q2DPB-TK 2 Network Programmer Guide AA-PS2WC-TE 2 Guide to Realtime programming AA-PS33C-TE 2 Network Administration and Problem Solving AA-PS2SB-TE 2 Network Configuration AA-PS2GC-TE 1 Command Shell and USers Guide AA-PS2HC-TE 2 Dec OSF/1 Technical Overview AA-QoR1B-TE 1 Documentation Overview Glossary and master Index AA-PS2JC-TE 3 Guide to Prestoserve AA-PqToC-TE 2 Software License Mgmt. AA-POTOC-TE 2 Kernel DEbugging AA-PS2TD-TE 1 DecWindows Companion to the OSF/Motif Style Guide AA-QBYUA-TE 2 Asynchronous Transfer Mode AA-QDP5B-TE 2 #################################################### Digital Unix july 1985 Installation Guide AA-PS2DF-TE 2 Release Notes AA-PS2BF-TE 3 Logical Storage manager AA-Q3NCD-TE 2 DECladebug Debugging manual: Command-Line Interface AA-PZ7ED-TE 2 Sharing Software on a local Area Network AA-P53LD-TE 1 Security AA-Q0R2C-TE 1 System Tuning and Performance Management AA-q0R3D-TE 1 Writing VMEBus Device Drivers AA-Q0R7D-TE 2 Writing PCI Bus Device Drivers AA-Q7RQB-TE ######################################### In Addition I'll have some old sun stuff, some old SGI manuals and various old computer manuals. As sson as I can get around to going through this stuff. Tom Tom Ponsford wrote: > Hi All, > > Got a whole pallet load of old documentation for $2 at the local > University Auction. > Some Stuff I'm keeping but if anybody is interested in some of the other > stuff, its your's for the cost of shipping, probably USPS media mail, or > UPS at your choice. > > Free to good home: > > Evans and Sutherland PS 390 Documentation Set (circa 1987) > 4 Full size Binders including Hardware and Software documentation. > > OSF/1 manuals all topics about 40 or 50 manuals all together. I'll keep > a few, but the rest go. > > Digital Unix manuals, about a dozen, all topics. most are the usual > software documentation. > > Digital VMS 6.2 manuals almost a complete set. These are not the big > "grey wall" of dec binders but the newer paperback manuals. > > All of the manuals are in Great condition. It looks as some have never > been used. > > I will have a list of the OSF/1, DEC Unix and VMS manuals in the next > few days,(as I go through them) but if your looking for a special one, > contact me off-list. > > Remember as I'm doing this for free (ie cost of shipping) it might be a > while before I get them sent. > > Also, the last time I did this, I got burnt by some on this list who > never sent me the shipping costs, so this time shipping costs up front. > > Thanks > > Tom Ponsford > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 13:25:30 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > If I have linux on a pc or laptop, how do I get a shell session > running on the serial port? Does it automatically start a getty on > serial ports? If so, than just having a terminal program that could > send text on the apple would do it? There's generally a serial startup file in the /etc/rc.d directory. Inside that you'll usually find a bunch of serial configuration commands commented out. Pick one that works for your serial setup (COM port, interrupt, etc.) and then do a "serial restart" and you should be up and running. Don't forget the null modem device. > I don't have proterm for the apple...would that be a good solution > for my problem (to either send to procomm plus (which I also don't > have) or do a linux system)? Yes, it's basically a terminal emulation program, and was pretty much THE one when the Apple ][ was in its heyday. You don't absolutely need it (you can use the firmware in the Super Serial Card, which sucks) but it would make things a whole lot easier. I was looking for a program that I remember that allowed you to transfer files between the Apple ][ and a PC over a serial port using drag and drop but I can't find it. However, I did find this: http://www.geocities.com/apl24win/DESCRIPT.HTM Transfer files through the Apple ][ I/O port to a parallel port on the PC. Ok, it could have been done easier with serial ports, but this eliminates the necessity of having a serial card on the Apple ][, which can be hard to find for some people (I have scads of them). A very neat concept. I'll have to play with it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 13:32:24 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <200312111153.25406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > There's a command you can use in Applesoft Basic to redirect console I/O > to a card in one of its slots - eg, the Super-Serial card. I don't > know what it is, and can't find a refernce to it using google. Does > someone else on the list remember how to do this? To "turn on" the serial card: PR#2 Then to get into its (crappy) command interpreter press CTRL-A. Apparently no one has thought to scan in the command documentation for the SSC (probably because no one ever really used it). I can't find a copy online. But anyway, you don't want to go that route since you'll still need to write some software to send your files over the serial port. Another option is ADT: http://www.callapple.org/magazine/2002may/ADT.pdf It transfers whole disk images to a PC over the serial port. I've used it before and it is excellent. You'll then need to use an emulator such as Apple ][ Oasis: http://www.geocities.com/apl24win/index.html ...which supports extracting individual files from Apple ][ disk images. It would probably be as efficient (perhaps if not more so) than transfering individual files over a serial port (after you get the right terminal software on each side). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 13:35:43 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, David Holland wrote: > Probably "PR#2", and "IN#2" (Presuming of course the SS card is in > slot 2. (No, I can't remember the correct order though, so you > may be typing blind) IN#2 will hook the input vector to the serial card so that incoming data can be input as if from the keyboard. In this case you only need PR#2 since you want to "PRint" to slot #2 (the Super Serial Card, i.e. data out only). > Speaking of A2 file transfers, anyone know how to get a A2-GS > on a CAT-5 ethernet network? (And roughly how much it'd costs?) > For file transfers, Serial tends to be too flakey, and slow > for my tastes. You definitely want to get an Apple ][ Workstation card and connect to a Mac over AppleTalk, and then go ethernet from the Mac to whatever. Was there ever an ethernet card for the Apple ][? > I've Linux, Solaris, IRIX, and (unfortunately) Windoze handy. No > Macintoshes though. Check out Contiki: http://www.dunkels.com/adam/contiki/ I have no idea if the TCP/IP stack works on the Apple ][ at this point. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 11 13:49:15 2003 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Free Stuff-LIST References: <3FD8A3AB.4030203@theriver.com> <3FD8B98C.2070609@theriver.com> Message-ID: <000801c3c01f$e380e3e0$547ca418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Ponsford" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Free Stuff-LIST > Hi all > > The Evans and Sutherland manuals have been spoken for: > > Remember first come first served with priority to those who take the most stuff!! > > Ok, here is a partial list of the DEC stuff: > > The VMS stuff is too much for me to list today, besides most of it I put in my > storage. Its about 4-5 of those plastic 25 gallon storage boxes. > > But here is the OSF and DEC Unix stuff: > ########################################################### > DEC OSF/1 8/94 > Title Dec # Copies > DecWindows Users Guide AA-Q917A-TE 2 > > Technical OverView AA-Q0R18-TE 1 > > Dec Verifier and Execiser > Tool Users Guide AA-PttMB-TE 2 > > Calling Standard for AXP > Systems AA-PYBAB-TE 2 > > DecWindows Extensionto Motif AA-QBYSA-TE 1 > > X Window System Environment AA-Q7RNA-TE 2 > > Writing Device Drivers > Advanced Topics AA-Q7RPA-TE 1 > > Digital Portable Mathematics > Library AA-PUBXB-TK 2 > > DEveloping Application for > the Display Postcript System AA-Q15WA-TE 1 > > DECWindows Motif Guide > to Appplication Programm. AA-QBYTA-TE 2 > > Assembly Language Programming > Guide AA-PS31C-TE 2 > > Programming with ONC RPC AA-QOR5A-TE 2 > > Programming Support Tools AA-PS3@C-TE 3 > > Writing Software for the > International Market AA-QoFMB-TE 2 > > Ultrix to DEC OSF/1 > Migration Guide AA-PS3EC-TE 1 > > DecWindows Extension to > Motif AA-QBYSA-TE 1 > > Programmers Guide AA-PS30C-TE 2 > > Guide to DECThreads AA-Q2DPB-TK 2 > > Network Programmer Guide AA-PS2WC-TE 2 > > Guide to Realtime programming AA-PS33C-TE 2 > > Network Administration and > Problem Solving AA-PS2SB-TE 2 > > Network Configuration AA-PS2GC-TE 1 > > Command Shell and USers Guide AA-PS2HC-TE 2 > > Dec OSF/1 Technical Overview AA-QoR1B-TE 1 > > Documentation Overview > Glossary and master Index AA-PS2JC-TE 3 > > Guide to Prestoserve AA-PqToC-TE 2 > > Software License Mgmt. AA-POTOC-TE 2 > > Kernel DEbugging AA-PS2TD-TE 1 > > DecWindows Companion to the > OSF/Motif Style Guide AA-QBYUA-TE 2 > > Asynchronous Transfer Mode AA-QDP5B-TE 2 > > #################################################### > Digital Unix july 1985 > > Installation Guide AA-PS2DF-TE 2 > > Release Notes AA-PS2BF-TE 3 > > Logical Storage manager AA-Q3NCD-TE 2 > > DECladebug Debugging manual: > Command-Line Interface AA-PZ7ED-TE 2 > > Sharing Software on a local > Area Network AA-P53LD-TE 1 > > Security AA-Q0R2C-TE 1 > > System Tuning and Performance > Management AA-q0R3D-TE 1 > > Writing VMEBus Device Drivers AA-Q0R7D-TE 2 > > Writing PCI Bus Device > Drivers AA-Q7RQB-TE > > ######################################### > > In Addition I'll have some old sun stuff, some old SGI manuals > and various old computer manuals. As sson as I can get around > to going through this stuff. > > Tom > > > Tom Ponsford wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Got a whole pallet load of old documentation for $2 at the local > > University Auction. > > Some Stuff I'm keeping but if anybody is interested in some of the other > > stuff, its your's for the cost of shipping, probably USPS media mail, or > > UPS at your choice. > > > > Free to good home: > > > > Evans and Sutherland PS 390 Documentation Set (circa 1987) > > 4 Full size Binders including Hardware and Software documentation. > > > > OSF/1 manuals all topics about 40 or 50 manuals all together. I'll keep > > a few, but the rest go. > > > > Digital Unix manuals, about a dozen, all topics. most are the usual > > software documentation. > > > > Digital VMS 6.2 manuals almost a complete set. These are not the big > > "grey wall" of dec binders but the newer paperback manuals. > > > > All of the manuals are in Great condition. It looks as some have never > > been used. > > > > I will have a list of the OSF/1, DEC Unix and VMS manuals in the next > > few days,(as I go through them) but if your looking for a special one, > > contact me off-list. > > > > Remember as I'm doing this for free (ie cost of shipping) it might be a > > while before I get them sent. > > > > Also, the last time I did this, I got burnt by some on this list who > > never sent me the shipping costs, so this time shipping costs up front. > > > > Thanks > > > > Tom Ponsford > > > > > > If you come acrross any apple A/UX unix manuals I would like then for my collection. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 11 13:52:24 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <3FD7CA62.4050201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1297.4.20.168.222.1071025232.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2365.4.20.168.140.1071104134.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3FD7CA62.4050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3120.4.20.168.166.1071172344.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> If you did decode the data, it would reduce the storage requirements of >> the emulator considerably, but it would make it a lot less >> general-purpose. Ben wrote: > I don't see how that would make a large difference as you only have 2x > increase in data size. Anyhow would not information be saved on a track > rather than sector chunk size to ram? Without decoding the data, it is proposed to sample the data at 50 Mbps or more. If the data is MFM, and if the emulator decodes it, only about 5 Mbps needs to be stored. Slightly more, actually, due to the need to represent coding violations used for the address and data marks. In practice, this would be most easily accomplished by storing 10 Mbps of decoded data and clocks. This is a 5x reduction in data rate as compared to the raw sampling. However, given that no new 2.5- and 3.5-inch hard drives are made with capacity lower than 40 GB, there's not really much point to trying to save storage space. And certainly having the emulator decode the data makes it much less general-purpose. > While you don't encode data, > knowing the data format would help with removing write precom when > syncronzing the data to the track bit stream. Removing write precomp, if necessary, does not require any knowledge of the data encoding. It only has to model the magnetic characteristics of the recording channel. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 11 13:55:54 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3140.4.20.168.166.1071172554.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Peter Wallace wrote: > No thats not bad, especially if you use SDRAM, which would be fast enough > if a small FIFO is used to smooth out the page crossing delays The slowest SDRAM you can buy now is fast enough that page crossings are not a problem. You could actually completely avoid use of page mode, in which case the data rate from the SDRAM is constant. However, since FPGAs give you small FIFOs at zero incremental cost, there's no reason to try to avoid them. Of course, some people don't want to use FPGAs. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 11 13:57:32 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <002501c3bfb0$f57a7b20$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <002501c3bfb0$f57a7b20$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <3154.4.20.168.166.1071172652.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Andy wrote: > By "RLL" I assume you mean RLL 2,7 (at least 2 transitions in every 7 bit > times) - the one that gave about 50% greater capacity than MFM on "the > same" > drives. > "MFM" is technically RLL 1,2 (ISTR) > There was also a controller whose name escapes me that used RLL 3,9 to get > 90% greater capacity. RLL 1,7 is also common. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Dec 11 14:02:12 2003 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: <005001c3c01f$d447cba0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: <.206.184.248.70.1071172932.squirrel@pegasus.lunarpages.com> >> He ripped off a bunch of other people, IMHO, Jim Willing [snip] > > Speaking of ripped off and Jim Willing, has anybody heard from him, or is > perhaps willing (no pun intended) to disclose his whereabouts? --Patrick > Jim's still around and in the same place he's been for a while, to the best of my knowledge. I've spoken to him on the phone a few times and he did finally send out most of the stuff I bought from him, although I needed to send out pre-paid shipping tags. I'm still trying to get the last of my items but I'm pretty confident that I will. What ever happened to "The Plan" for getting someone out there to relieve Jim of this burden? Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Dec 11 14:20:47 2003 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <3120.4.20.168.166.1071172344.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001501c3c024$4311c6e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Without decoding the data, it is proposed to sample the data at 50 Mbps > or more. > Why so fast? You only need sample at 2x the bandwidth. Andy From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 11 14:24:32 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <.206.184.248.70.1071172932.squirrel@pegasus.lunarpages.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > What ever happened to "The Plan" for getting someone out there to relieve > Jim of this burden? Sellam took charge of collecting donations to help Jim out; I didnt hear more after submitting my donation. Sellam? --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Thu Dec 11 14:23:32 2003 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <.206.184.248.70.1071172932.squirrel@pegasus.lunarpages.com> References: <005001c3c01f$d447cba0$4291a8c0@aoldsl.net> <.206.184.248.70.1071172932.squirrel@pegasus.lunarpages.com> Message-ID: <20031211202332.26F8B42852@server1.messagingengine.com> > Jim's still around and in the same place he's been for a while, to the > best of my knowledge. I've spoken to him on the phone a few times and he > did finally send out most of the stuff I bought from him, although I > needed to send out pre-paid shipping tags. > > I'm still trying to get the last of my items but I'm pretty confident > that > I will. > > What ever happened to "The Plan" for getting someone out there to relieve > Jim of this burden? > > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > The Vintage Computer Forum Good! I'm glad someone finally got in contact with him! Erik, can you do me a favor? E-mail me off-list, I have something that Jim needs to know about concerning my shipment. -- David Vohs netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 14:35:22 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <3120.4.20.168.166.1071172344.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Eric Smith wrote: > However, given that no new 2.5- and 3.5-inch hard drives are made with > capacity lower than 40 GB, there's not really much point to trying to > save storage space. WHo said you'd have to get a new harddrive for this project? 1GB drives are a dime a dozen (it's funny saying that). Even drives <10GB are relatively easy to come by these days for cheap. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 14:36:28 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <.206.184.248.70.1071172932.squirrel@pegasus.lunarpages.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > What ever happened to "The Plan" for getting someone out there to relieve > Jim of this burden? I must admit I dropped the ball on this due to VCF 6.0 and trying to keep my new business afloat. However, I plan to get back on this within a week or so (it's been nagging at me). Jim has certainly (hopefully) had enough time to stabilize his affairs by now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 14:37:27 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > > > What ever happened to "The Plan" for getting someone out there to relieve > > Jim of this burden? > Sellam took charge of collecting donations to help Jim out; > I didnt hear more after submitting my donation. Sellam? I never received any donations from anyone. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 11 14:44:12 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Sellam took charge of collecting donations to help Jim out; > > I didnt hear more after submitting my donation. Sellam? > > I never received any donations from anyone. No, I said I submitted it, I didnt say I gave you cash, which is kinda hard, physially, right now :) I did tell you about being able to pick it up from my bank, tho :) (moot point anyway; you didnt have time, and I'm going to drag your behind through fry's next week anyways ;-) [yes, good plan: fry's for christmas] *snicker* --f -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 11 14:47:41 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <.206.184.248.70.1071172932.squirrel@pegasus.lunarpages.com> Message-ID: > Jim's still around and in the same place he's been for a while, to the > best of my knowledge. I've spoken to him on the phone a few times and he > did finally send out most of the stuff I bought from him, although I > needed to send out pre-paid shipping tags. Could you please send this information? I have been trying to contact him for a long time via email - only sometimes do I get a response - and I have to arrange to ship back a large quantity of older 6800 based hardware/software/docs that were part of a failed deal we were working out. I sent several boxes some time ago, and when everything was sent, he was going to send me a fair amount of money for the pile. Things, as we see, did not go to plan. If I don't have the stuff back by Springtime, I may swing by on my annual NY to CA run. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 11 14:48:51 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Jim has certainly (hopefully) had enough time to stabilize his affairs by > now. I hope so. I have given him more than enough slack. I am beyond pissed at this point. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 14:55:06 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > Sellam took charge of collecting donations to help Jim out; > > > I didnt hear more after submitting my donation. Sellam? > > > > I never received any donations from anyone. > No, I said I submitted it, I didnt say I gave you cash, which is > kinda hard, physially, right now :) I did tell you about being > able to pick it up from my bank, tho :) Oh right, sorry :( It's been a while since that discussion. > (moot point anyway; you didnt have time, and I'm going to drag > your behind through fry's next week anyways ;-) Can I be nude and shout obscenities? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From emu at ecubics.com Thu Dec 11 15:25:15 2003 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Jim Willing, was: Re: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD8E0BB.4040102@ecubics.com> [Pretty much everybody is writing about Jim Willing] Hey guys, does it really hurt to change the subject line ? This has nothing to do with a stolen altair, and Jim has probably enough problems. He doesn't need another one being in the archives as having something to do with a stolen box ... From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 11 15:16:14 2003 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312111316.14175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 11 December 2003 12:55, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: ---snip---snip--- > Can I be nude and shout obscenities? Hey, we'll all come and take pictures..... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Dec 11 15:55:22 2003 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > (moot point anyway; you didnt have time, and I'm going to drag > > your behind through fry's next week anyways ;-) > > Can I be nude and shout obscenities? Yes, you can, as far as *I* am concerned :) Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 11 15:58:45 2003 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: AppleTalk file sharing with //gs References: <200312111833.KAA12476@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <024f01c3c031$f476c220$6501a8c0@laptop> > My IIgs is on the apartment Ethernet, although more or less per kludge. > I have a Dayna EtherPrint-T box that converts LocalTalk, of which I have > a number of systems running (a Mac Plus, an old PC using an Apple ISA > card, an SE/30 and the IIgs), into EtherTalk and emits it over the main > apartment backbone. The IIgs is plugged into the LocalTalk segment and > shares files with the NetBSD server running netatalk (ironically, it's a > Mac IIci, but this should work fine with any Unix-based system with > support ... I did have to recompile the kernel to allow DDP traffic). > Note, that's netatalk, not netatalk-asun ... never used the latter. I've done pretty much the same thing. (A schematic of my network is at http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/network.gif ) Unfortunately, I have a 140GB SNAP server and PC with multigigabyte drives using PC MacLAN on the ethernet. If either of these in on the network (the default condition) the //gs hangs in the chooser. I assume it's because of some filesystem size limit inherent in the //gs implementation of AFP. Anyone know of a work around? I'd really like to back up the SCSI drive on the //gs to the SNAP server. Some day in my copious spare time, I'll pull out a debugger.... Eric From aek at spies.com Thu Dec 11 16:02:18 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312112202.hBBM2IgE031273@spies.com> > Why so fast? You only need sample at 2x the bandwidth. What you're trying to do is find the edge position in the presence of jitter though it's more of an issue with floppies that have belt-driven spindle motors. It also helps detect runt pulses in sector splices. From marvin at rain.org Thu Dec 11 16:06:09 2003 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: Message-ID: <3FD8EA51.7C510CEB@rain.org> I think it would be a good idea though not to be carrying the Stolen Altair as indicated in the subject line :). "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > (moot point anyway; you didnt have time, and I'm going to drag > > > your behind through fry's next week anyways ;-) > > > > Can I be nude and shout obscenities? > Yes, you can, as far as *I* am concerned :) > > Fred > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at http://www.pdp11.nl/VAXlab/ > Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Sunnyvale, CA, USA From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 11 16:10:07 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <001501c3c024$4311c6e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <3120.4.20.168.166.1071172344.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <001501c3c024$4311c6e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <3392.4.20.168.166.1071180607.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> Without decoding the data, it is proposed to sample the data at 50 Mbps >> or more. Andy wrote: > Why so fast? You only need sample at 2x the bandwidth. 2x is the theoretical minimum; sampling at 2x isn't always adequate in practice due to various real-world limitations. The minimum write data pulse width spec for the WD1000 controller is 60 ns. If we were sampling and reconstructing a sine wave with a 120 ns period, 16.7 MHz sampling would be adequate. But that wouldn't yield good results for square waves, and there wouldn't be any margins. In practice, I suspect that 33.3 MHz sampling would be barely adequate provided that no other problems arise. Operating at 50 MHz seems advisable to have reasonable margins. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 11 16:12:29 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: References: <3120.4.20.168.166.1071172344.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3399.4.20.168.166.1071180749.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> However, given that no new 2.5- and 3.5-inch hard drives are made with >> capacity lower than 40 GB, there's not really much point to trying to >> save storage space. Sellam wrote: > WHo said you'd have to get a new harddrive for this project? 1GB drives > are a dime a dozen (it's funny saying that). Even drives <10GB are > relatively easy to come by these days for cheap. 1. Even a 10GB drive is more capacity than is needed, so that's still no reason to cripple the functionality by making the emulator decode a particular dat format. 2. If I were to build one of these for myself (or as a product), I wouldn't want to use some random old disk drive of questionable reliability. In fact, I'd probably want to use *two* new disk drives with mirroring. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Dec 11 16:23:08 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: Message-ID: <3FD8EE4C.5FFE53CF@compsys.to> >Christopher Cureau wrote: > Finally! Instead of just working on one, I'm going to try to build one > from some components that I've collected. Trouble is, I'm not sure how to > put it all together. I saw mention of a QBUS howto, but the link to that > seems to be long gone. Would a kind soul care to assist on this? > This is what I have: > BA23 enclosure > M8190-AB (11/84 cpu) > M8067 (512k memory?) > M7516 (DELQA) > Dilog DQ686 (ESDI controller) > Maxtor ESDI drive (don't remember how large offhand) Jerome Fine replies: First, the M8190-AB is a PDP-11/73 CPU board and usually runs in an ALL Qbus system. Don't forget that the M8190-AB runs BEST with a cabinet kit that has ONE DB25 connector and two cables between it and the CPU - one 10 pin and one 20 pin. Extra M8067 memory boards of 1/2 MByte should not be too difficult to find. All of the above hardware is compatible. The M8190-AB is DEFINITELY a Qbus board, NOT a UNIBUS board. In fact, it is not even a PDP-11/83 CPU, but normally regarded as a PDP-11/73 CPU, in RT-11 noted as a B processor since it has boot ROMs and all that sort of stuff. Under RT-11 when used with normal memory or PMI memory below the CPU, it is a PDP-11/73. When used with PMI memory above the CPU, RT-11 shows a PDP-11/83 to be present. In addition, as has been noted, there is no such animal as a PDP-11/84 CPU since the same CPU board is used for BOTH the PDP-11/83 and the PDP-11/84. However, in the ALL Qbus or PDP-11/83 system, the same PMI memory will also work with most M8190-AB boards either as normal memory or a PMI memory - depending on the position whether the memory is above or below the CPU. When used in a PDP-11/84 system, the PMI memory is different and the rest of the system is Unibus with a converter connected to the CPU / memory on the Qbus side. I have no idea of how to transfer BSD to the hard drive! Even RT-11 would be difficult since there are no easy ways without RT-11 to do a download. Having an RQDX3 and an RX50 in the BA23 box might be useful. > I'm thinking that I have all that I need here, but I could be wrong. I > want to be able to run 2.11BSD on the machine... > Cheers, > Chris Cureau Sorry - I am an RT-11 addict! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Dec 11 16:26:09 2003 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? Message-ID: <200312112226.OAA12241@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >I wrote: >>> Without decoding the data, it is proposed to sample the data at 50 Mbps >>> or more. > >Andy wrote: >> Why so fast? You only need sample at 2x the bandwidth. > >2x is the theoretical minimum; sampling at 2x isn't always adequate >in practice due to various real-world limitations. > >The minimum write data pulse width spec for the WD1000 controller >is 60 ns. If we were sampling and reconstructing a sine wave with >a 120 ns period, 16.7 MHz sampling would be adequate. But that Hi Even for a sine wave, the brick wall filter would be difficult to create. You need a little more room. >wouldn't yield good results for square waves, and there wouldn't be >any margins. In practice, I suspect that 33.3 MHz sampling would be >barely adequate provided that no other problems arise. Operating at >50 MHz seems advisable to have reasonable margins. The thing to consider is that we are not sampling a "square" wave. It is a variable pulse width digital signal. The only kind of processors I know of that could handle this from a port is some of the latest DSP chips. Using a PC, even one like our ( AMD ) latest Opteron wouldn't do well since it is so highly pipelined and unpredictable in execution speed at this short a time interval. There are a number of DSP evaluation boards out there that places like ADI and TI sell that could be made to handle this task. Of course, a simple pulse width counter on the front end could simplify the sampling process. > > From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Dec 11 16:30:54 2003 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: Message-ID: <3FD8F01E.BC2BF57D@compsys.to> >Christopher Cureau wrote: > The M8190 was salvaged from a PDP-11/23 backplane where it had been > running, so I assumed that it would work in a QBUS setup. Is there an easy > way to tell whether the card is really Unibus or QBUS? Jerome Fine replies: There is a list of DEC boards available. I can't remember the address. It lists the M8190-AB as Qbus. > 2.11BSD, is the disk controller supported? Probably. MSCP on DEC PDP-11 systems seems to be supported by most operating systems that run on a PDP-11. Most 3rd party Qbus disk controllers and host adapters, especially SCSI host adapters supported MSCP since their use was targeted to function under DEC operating systems on the PDP-11 and microVAX II systems. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 11 16:37:53 2003 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: <3FD8F01E.BC2BF57D@compsys.to> Message-ID: <005101c3c037$6a91cc20$1a02a8c0@starship1> MSCP controllers and drives should all appear to the OS as DUxx type drives, so it shouldn't be an issue. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome H. Fine" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Building a PDP-11 for the first time > >Christopher Cureau wrote: > > > The M8190 was salvaged from a PDP-11/23 backplane where it had been > > running, so I assumed that it would work in a QBUS setup. Is there an easy > > way to tell whether the card is really Unibus or QBUS? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > There is a list of DEC boards available. I can't remember the > address. It lists the M8190-AB as Qbus. > > > 2.11BSD, is the disk controller supported? > > Probably. MSCP on DEC PDP-11 systems seems > to be supported by most operating systems that run > on a PDP-11. Most 3rd party Qbus disk controllers > and host adapters, especially SCSI host adapters > supported MSCP since their use was targeted to > function under DEC operating systems on the PDP-11 > and microVAX II systems. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 11 16:42:25 2003 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? References: <3120.4.20.168.166.1071172344.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <001501c3c024$4311c6e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> <3392.4.20.168.166.1071180607.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3FD8F2D1.2010807@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > The minimum write data pulse width spec for the WD1000 controller > is 60 ns. If we were sampling and reconstructing a sine wave with > a 120 ns period, 16.7 MHz sampling would be adequate. But that > wouldn't yield good results for square waves, and there wouldn't be > any margins. In practice, I suspect that 33.3 MHz sampling would be > barely adequate provided that no other problems arise. Operating at > 50 MHz seems advisable to have reasonable margins. > Remember only the leading edge is important so this just digital data. While you need a high clock to reduce jitter, remember too about meta-stable problems. When you think about it you would only need about say 4 bits of information per data clock. 1 bit would be pulse yes/no and the other 3 bits would be phase shift from the master clock. Now do you really need to use a FPGA when a PAL's might be better with external ram. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Dec 11 14:06:22 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The geocities web page that you list doesn't work for me (page requested not found). I'm just looking for the easiest way to get those files transferred over. -Bob On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > If I have linux on a pc or laptop, how do I get a shell session > > running on the serial port? Does it automatically start a getty on > > serial ports? If so, than just having a terminal program that could > > send text on the apple would do it? > > There's generally a serial startup file in the /etc/rc.d directory. > Inside that you'll usually find a bunch of serial configuration commands > commented out. Pick one that works for your serial setup (COM port, > interrupt, etc.) and then do a "serial restart" and you should be up and > running. Don't forget the null modem device. > > > I don't have proterm for the apple...would that be a good solution > > for my problem (to either send to procomm plus (which I also don't > > have) or do a linux system)? > > Yes, it's basically a terminal emulation program, and was pretty much THE > one when the Apple ][ was in its heyday. You don't absolutely need it > (you can use the firmware in the Super Serial Card, which sucks) but it > would make things a whole lot easier. > > I was looking for a program that I remember that allowed you to transfer > files between the Apple ][ and a PC over a serial port using drag and drop > but I can't find it. However, I did find this: > > http://www.geocities.com/apl24win/DESCRIPT.HTM > > Transfer files through the Apple ][ I/O port to a parallel port on the PC. > Ok, it could have been done easier with serial ports, but this eliminates > the necessity of having a serial card on the Apple ][, which can be hard > to find for some people (I have scads of them). A very neat concept. > I'll have to play with it. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From kd7bcy at teleport.com Thu Dec 11 16:53:47 2003 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: IRC! was RE: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > (moot point anyway; you didnt have time, and I'm going to drag >> your behind through fry's next week anyways ;-) >Can I be nude and shout obscenities? And I thought the IRC crowd was bad... Speaking of IRC, I decided to have some fun and start my own channel. So if anyone wants to stop in, I'm in #Apollo_Domain on DALnet. The title would indicate an Apollo/HP subject, but I'm just gonna use it as an off-the-beaten-path hangout for demented folk like myself. Just keep things civilized! -JR From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 11 17:08:06 2003 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: AppleTalk file sharing with //gs In-Reply-To: <024f01c3c031$f476c220$6501a8c0@laptop> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Dec 11, 3 01:58:45 pm" Message-ID: <200312112308.PAA12300@floodgap.com> > I've done pretty much the same thing. (A schematic of my network is at > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/network.gif ) Unfortunately, I > have a 140GB SNAP server and PC with multigigabyte drives using PC MacLAN on > the ethernet. If either of these in on the network (the default condition) > the //gs hangs in the chooser. I assume it's because of some filesystem > size limit inherent in the //gs implementation of AFP. Anyone know of a > work around? I'd really like to back up the SCSI drive on the //gs to the > SNAP server. Some day in my copious spare time, I'll pull out a > debugger.... About the only thing I can think of is creating a separate zone to keep the "naughty" PC and SNAP systems in their own little private hell that others can get to, that the IIgs doesn't see by default. (I assume all your systems are currently in one large AppleTalk zone ... ?) At least that gets it on the network, even if it can't access the SNAP. Perhaps an intermediary could accept data from it and pass it on to the SNAP on its behalf. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Don't anthropomorphise computers. They hate that. -- Gregory McNear -------- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 11 14:17:14 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031211211714.319a7383.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:45:43 -0600 Bob Brown wrote: > If I have linux on a pc or laptop, how do I get a shell session > running on the serial port? Does it automatically start a getty on > serial ports? If so, than just having a terminal program that could > send text on the apple would do it? You don't need a getty. You need a terminal programm like tip(1) or minicom(1). -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 11 18:02:23 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <3FD8EE4C.5FFE53CF@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Jerome Fine replies: > > First, the M8190-AB is a PDP-11/73 CPU board and > usually runs in an ALL Qbus system. Don't forget that So can someone fix this in the "FIELD GUIDE TO Q-BUS AND UNIBUS MODULES" doc? It's got an M8190 listed as an 11/84 CPU. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Thu Dec 11 17:12:21 2003 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Looking for Compaq LTE 386 References: <20031210235731.QTSW23158.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <008f01c3c03c$81e5d600$64534ed5@geoff> I have a LTE386 , complete with docking station , but I'm in the UK. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Looking for Compaq LTE 386 > > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 22:22:10 -0800 (PST) > > From: Vintage Computer Festival > > To: Classic Computers Mailing List , > > Bay Area Computer Collector List > > Cc: > > Subject: Looking for Compaq LTE 386 > > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > > > > Has anyone got a Compaq LTE 386 that they'd be willing to part with? > > If so, please contact me. > > > > Thanks! > > This doesn't exist. > > LTE 386s does. I used to own one. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > > > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer Festival > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Dec 11 18:13:40 2003 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Apple 2 transfers. WAS: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071188017.5174.29.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 14:35, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, David Holland wrote: > > > Probably "PR#2", and "IN#2" (Presuming of course the SS card is in > > slot 2. (No, I can't remember the correct order though, so you > > may be typing blind) > > IN#2 will hook the input vector to the serial card so that incoming data > can be input as if from the keyboard. In this case you only need PR#2 > since you want to "PRint" to slot #2 (the Super Serial Card, i.e. data out > only). Yah, your coorect. My AppleSoft/A2 knowledge is _very_ rusty anymore. > > > Speaking of A2 file transfers, anyone know how to get a A2-GS > > on a CAT-5 ethernet network? (And roughly how much it'd costs?) > > For file transfers, Serial tends to be too flakey, and slow > > for my tastes. > > You definitely want to get an Apple ][ Workstation card and connect to a > Mac over AppleTalk, and then go ethernet from the Mac to whatever. Was > there ever an ethernet card for the Apple ][? That'd involve buying a Macintosh, which unless its big enough to run OSX/*BSD I'm not all that interested in doing. (Unless of course someone has a free one they want to give away. :-) ) There is this thing: http://lancegs.a2central.com/specs/index.html However, I believe they wanted something like 150$ for it. (More than I was really wanting to pay) If I remember correctly, somewhere there's a FCC application from Apple for a A2 ethernet device, but I think the project got canned before the boards saw the light of day. > > > I've Linux, Solaris, IRIX, and (unfortunately) Windoze handy. No > > Macintoshes though. > > Check out Contiki: > > http://www.dunkels.com/adam/contiki/ > > I have no idea if the TCP/IP stack works on the Apple ][ at this point. There's also Marinetti for the A2-GS/GSOS for a TCP/IP stack: http://www.apple2.org/marinetti/ I purchased a CFFA card ( http://dreher.net/CFforAppleII/ ) for the IIgs a while ago. So basically I now have 128Mb "floppy disks" for the IIgs. My plan was: 1) Get ProDOS & GS/OS on the CFFA/IIgs via Serial. 2) Get AppleTalk/Ethernet into the IIgs. 3) Transfer disk images via ethernet to the CFFA card. 4) Write ProDOS/GSOS program to write disk image back out to 5.25" floppies. (Presuming the programs themselves aren't already ProDOS/GSOS compatible) TCP/IP doesn't sound really all that necessary in this scenario. I suppose thinking about it I could code up something in Linux that'd let me plop the stuff I needed directly on a Compact Flash card via my USB 6-in-1 reader, but that isn't as interesting to me as putting my IIgs "on the net". Its step #2 that's giving me the hard part, as I don't know exactly what what little bits of hardware I need to translate ethernet->localtalk(?) (It is my understanding there's already localtalk ports on the back of a IIgs) Step #4 could be hard too, but I used to know A2's pretty well, I'm sure I could refresh much of those rusty bits of memory. I've gotten as far as getting ProDOS to boot off the CFFA, then I started looking around for ethernet connectivity, and gotten no further. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 11 18:55:59 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: <1a4.1db0d904.2d098957@aol.com> from "Zubla2001@aol.com" at Dec 11, 3 03:48:23 am Message-ID: > There have been some Apple emulators. > Does anyone know if any of them can read Apple 5.25" floppies? This is almost a FAQ here. The PC disk controller cannot read Apple ][ floppies. The drives can, but the controller can't make sense of the bitstream that comes ou on the read data line. There have been alternative controllers for the PC (Catweasel, etc) that can read Apple ][ disks, and there were hardware add-in cards that added a 6502 CPU and an Apple disk controller to the PC. But without extra hardware you can't read Apple ][ disks on a PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 11 19:18:24 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Disk hardware emulation, was Re: Grandfather system RTE6/VM? In-Reply-To: <1071144303.2392.17.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 11, 3 12:05:04 pm Message-ID: > Oh, that reminds me - I came across another ACW owner last night. > Waiting to hear what (if any) docs / software he has for it. Interesting. I have most of the ssential docs (user guide, service manual, nearly a _complete_ schematic) now, though. > > > 4) With a few slight hardware changes (specifically related to the 'head' > > selection and index pulse), the emulator could be connected to the > > original ST506 _drive_ and make an image copy of it onto the modern disk. > > This would be useful for machines that can't do a low-level format > > (again, the HP9133 springs to mind) since such an image copy would copy > > the low-level format too. The modern hard disk could then be connected to > > a normal emulator and used to replace the ST506 drive in the classic > > computer. > > That, I think, is a must, compared to having to design something else > entirely to read the data off the drive in the first place. And as you > say, hopefully it isn't too complex to achieve. It looks to be very straightforward to do this. The frst thing to do, though, is to get the data capture circuit actually working. Then we can figure out how to link it to the controller and/or drive. > Presumably there's nothing to stop data being compressed/decompressed at > the 'new' hard drive level, providing the emulator is fast enough to do I mentioned this a few messages back. Yes, it can be done. It becomes a trade-off between the transfer time for the entire cylinder image (you want to compress each cylinder separately, so you can just compress/decompress that as you move data between the emulator RAM and the modern drive) and the time taken to compress/decompress it. If you _don't_ use compression, then you can do a relatively simple DMA trick between the emulator RAM (which has an address counter anyway) and the modern drive. This means you need almost no CPU power to control the emulator, as that CPU isn't involved in data transfers. > this. Unless your ST506 (for the sake of argument) drive contained a > single huge compressed file originally, compression level should be > reasonably good. It should be good anyway. The bitstream image is a lot larger than the data it encodes, so you should be able to compress it rather nicely... -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 20:24:45 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <200312111316.14175.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 11 December 2003 12:55, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > ---snip---snip--- > > > Can I be nude and shout obscenities? > > Hey, we'll all come and take pictures..... I'll be sure to pierce my nipples the day before. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 20:27:41 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: AppleTalk file sharing with //gs In-Reply-To: <024f01c3c031$f476c220$6501a8c0@laptop> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > I've done pretty much the same thing. (A schematic of my network is at > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/network.gif ) Unfortunately, I You know you're a total nerd when you take time to craft a pretty diagram of your home network (yes, I've done the same :) > the ethernet. If either of these in on the network (the default condition) > the //gs hangs in the chooser. I assume it's because of some filesystem Have you tried a later OS version? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Dec 11 20:32:00 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:49 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > The geocities web page that you list doesn't work for me (page requested > not found). I just tried it again and it worked fine. Try cutting & pasting the address again. > I'm just looking for the easiest way to get those files transferred over. See below. It is easy. > > http://www.geocities.com/apl24win/DESCRIPT.HTM -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Dec 11 20:43:53 2003 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'll be sure to pierce my nipples the day before. > BTW - did your Urologist ever get back to you about those ferret bites??? Chz John ObClassiccmp: He was standing next to a VAX when it happened. Really! I swear!! From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Thu Dec 11 20:52:50 2003 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Way OT (but still funny). (Was: Re: Stolen altair 8800) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031212025250.84C283EBF7@server1.messagingengine.com> > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > I'll be sure to pierce my nipples the day before. > > What? *Just* your nipples? What a pansy! -- David Vohs netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 11 23:41:07 2003 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Databook Thincard Message-ID: I suppose I have one of these things, and really want to make it go away. This is apparently a late 1980s precursor of the PCMCIA card - about the same size, but the connections are different. Anyway, this little "drive" (officially a TCD/1-E from Databook) is mounted in a cradle, so it fits into a 5 1/4 half height bay. I have no idea what the interface is. Tagged "Not for Life Support or Nuclear Use". So, anyone want this thing for a buck and postage? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 00:16:01 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Way OT (but still funny). (Was: Re: Stolen altair 8800) In-Reply-To: <20031212025250.84C283EBF7@server1.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, David Vohs wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > I'll be sure to pierce my nipples the day before. > > > > > What? *Just* your nipples? What a pansy! I already had the Prince Albert done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From msg at waste.org Thu Dec 11 23:30:21 2003 From: msg at waste.org (Infra) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Aztec C-86 3.40a command line args Message-ID: Greetings: We're wrestling with Aztec C-86 3.40a for MS-DOS (1986) and have no docs; we'd very much appreciate a description of command line args and switches for the various tools (if anyone can still find this info), especially the linker 'ln.exe'. We've compiled objects and libraries for a version of KA9Q specifically modified for a newer version of Aztec C (we needed to remove function prototypes and do other workarounds) but the linker chokes on backward references to unresolved symbols. Reordering the objects in libraries is not feasable as a workaround since that would create another set of backward references. There must be a way to get the linker to work properly on its two passes... All replies much appreciated. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum (msg _at_ cybertheque _dot_ org) From jpdavis at gorge.net Thu Dec 11 22:44:19 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20031211124458.008064b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20031211124458.008064b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3FD947A3.4060907@gorge.net> Joe wrote: > Do you have the serial number? You should report it to Steve Gabaly >(SP?). He was keeping a list of all the Altair serial numbers that he could >find. I don't have his e-mail address any more but he's Obtronix on E-bay. > > Joe > > >At 08:41 AM 12/11/03 -0800, you wrote: > > >>Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I >>would like to track down the bastard >>that ripped me off a long time ago. >>This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other >>people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. >>His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. >>Jim Davis. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > The system is quite distinct, The leds are multicolor, with green for data, red address and yellow status, The front panel has a rough hole with a radio shaack circular key switch and a 555 mod to repeat single step when held down. It has one of the poly 22 slot motherboards. The one with the stupid delron rod. I just wondered if anybody had seen it. I'd just like to hassle the guy, There's nothing else that can be done at this late a date. Jim Davis. From stevengunter at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 21:45:40 2003 From: stevengunter at earthlink.net (stevengunter@earthlink.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: kaypro 10 for sell!!! Message-ID: <000801c3c062$6a16c130$0201a8c0@steven> i just came into this thing and was looking it up on the web. Are you still looking for one? Steve G. From jpdavis at gorge.net Fri Dec 12 00:41:36 2003 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Aztec C-86 3.40a command line args In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD96320.5020704@gorge.net> Infra wrote: >Greetings: > >We're wrestling with Aztec C-86 3.40a for MS-DOS (1986) >and have no docs; we'd very much appreciate a description >of command line args and switches for the various tools >(if anyone can still find this info), especially the >linker 'ln.exe'. > >We've compiled objects and libraries for a version of KA9Q >specifically modified for a newer version of Aztec C >(we needed to remove function prototypes and do other >workarounds) but the linker chokes on backward references >to unresolved symbols. Reordering the objects in libraries >is not feasable as a workaround since that would create another >set of backward references. There must be a way to get the linker >to work properly on its two passes... > >All replies much appreciated. > >Michael Grigoni >Cybertheque Museum >(msg _at_ cybertheque _dot_ org) > > > > I have the full manuals and all the disks. I'll take a look tomorrow and see if it's for that version. Jim Davis. From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Dec 12 11:15:02 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> Message-ID: <002c01c3c0d3$7b9c9e40$0f5a96ac@aoldsl.net> I still need the mane of the altair thief.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Davis" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Stolen altair 8800 > Has anyone seen an altair 8800 with a circular keylock power switch, I > would like to track down the bastard > that ripped me off a long time ago. > This was in Oregon, 20 years from before, He ripped off a bunch of other > people, IMHO, Jim Willing and Mike Boyd. > His position was last reported in Eugene, that was years ago. > Jim Davis. > > > > From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 12 10:27:37 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: Message-ID: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> First, the M8190-AB is a PDP-11/73 CPU board and >> usually runs in an ALL Qbus system. Don't forget that > Patrick Finnegan answers: > So can someone fix this in the "FIELD GUIDE TO Q-BUS > AND UNIBUS MODULES" > doc? It's got an M8190 listed as an 11/84 CPU. Possible Classiccmp parity error detected. Inconsistent information. In another source KDJ11-A_UsersManual.pdf. page.73/2-18, the M8192 is the J11, which is the 11/73 CPU. I tend to trust the Field Guide, and the list too, for that matter. But trust then verify. John A. From vrs at msn.com Fri Dec 12 10:31:33 2003 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net> <002c01c3c0d3$7b9c9e40$0f5a96ac@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: > I still need the mane of the altair thief.... You can have the scalp as far as I'm concerned, but there may be others here who wanted it :-). Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 12 10:37:17 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 12 December 2003 11:27, John Allain wrote: > >> Jerome Fine replies: > >> > >> First, the M8190-AB is a PDP-11/73 CPU board and > >> usually runs in an ALL Qbus system. Don't forget that > > > > Patrick Finnegan answers: > > So can someone fix this in the "FIELD GUIDE TO Q-BUS > > AND UNIBUS MODULES" > > doc? It's got an M8190 listed as an 11/84 CPU. > > Possible Classiccmp parity error detected. > Inconsistent information. > > In another source > KDJ11-A_UsersManual.pdf. page.73/2-18, > the M8192 is the J11, which is the 11/73 CPU. > > I tend to trust the Field Guide, and the list too, for that > matter. But trust then verify. >From what I understand, the 11/73 and 11/83 are both J-11 cpus, the only difference being that the /73 runs at 15MHz and the /83 runs at 18MHz. The issue is that there's NO SUCH THING as an 11/84 cpu card, since 11/84 systems use an 11/83 (ie qbus) cpu with a Qniverter to convert to UNIBUS. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Dec 12 07:44:26 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok...I'm looking into the ADT route using apple oasis. It looks like the 'Apple II disk manager' is the portion of apple ][ oasis that I'd use to pull the text files out of my apple disk images and into windows (for porting to hp200), is that right? I'm a bit lost in the apple II disk manager interface. There is reference to 'associations' and conversions. If I drill down in the file manager portion of the screen to a DSK image, and see a file that I want to pull into windows, how do I do it? thanks! -Bob On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > There's a command you can use in Applesoft Basic to redirect console I/O > > to a card in one of its slots - eg, the Super-Serial card. I don't > > know what it is, and can't find a refernce to it using google. Does > > someone else on the list remember how to do this? > > To "turn on" the serial card: > > PR#2 > > Then to get into its (crappy) command interpreter press CTRL-A. > Apparently no one has thought to scan in the command documentation for the > SSC (probably because no one ever really used it). I can't find a copy > online. But anyway, you don't want to go that route since you'll still > need to write some software to send your files over the serial port. > > Another option is ADT: > > http://www.callapple.org/magazine/2002may/ADT.pdf > > It transfers whole disk images to a PC over the serial port. I've used it > before and it is excellent. You'll then need to use an emulator such as > Apple ][ Oasis: > > http://www.geocities.com/apl24win/index.html > > ...which supports extracting individual files from Apple ][ disk images. > It would probably be as efficient (perhaps if not more so) than > transfering individual files over a serial port (after you get the right > terminal software on each side). > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Dec 12 10:40:45 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am leaning towards ADT for the transfer. Looking at apple oasis, I see the disk manager tool. How do I use it to copy a file from an apple disk image out to a text file in windows? I see references to converters and associations, but I can't find a good document that explains how to get the data moved. For example, a sample HELLO program. How do I get it to reside in a windows file that I can open with notepad? thanks! -Bob >On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > There's a command you can use in Applesoft Basic to redirect console I/O > > to a card in one of its slots - eg, the Super-Serial card. I don't > > know what it is, and can't find a refernce to it using google. Does > > someone else on the list remember how to do this? > >To "turn on" the serial card: > >PR#2 > >Then to get into its (crappy) command interpreter press CTRL-A. >Apparently no one has thought to scan in the command documentation for the >SSC (probably because no one ever really used it). I can't find a copy >online. But anyway, you don't want to go that route since you'll still >need to write some software to send your files over the serial port. > >Another option is ADT: > >http://www.callapple.org/magazine/2002may/ADT.pdf > >It transfers whole disk images to a PC over the serial port. I've used it >before and it is excellent. You'll then need to use an emulator such as >Apple ][ Oasis: > >http://www.geocities.com/apl24win/index.html > >...which supports extracting individual files from Apple ][ disk images. >It would probably be as efficient (perhaps if not more so) than >transfering individual files over a serial port (after you get the right >terminal software on each side). > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Dec 12 06:30:42 2003 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time Message-ID: <200312121230.HAA11190121@shell.TheWorld.com> >> First, the M8190-AB is a PDP-11/73 CPU board and >> usually runs in an ALL Qbus system. Don't forget that > >So can someone fix this in the "FIELD GUIDE TO Q-BUS AND UNIBUS MODULES" >doc? It's got an M8190 listed as an 11/84 CPU. Since I own it, I'll check it out and adjust it if need be... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Dec 12 08:54:13 2003 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4177@MAIL10> You know, I just re-read this post after a few days and I noticed that the project within Microsoft was "Project Commodore". I haven't read "Hard Drive" or the other Microsoft history books in a few years, but I don't recall ever seeing a reference to that project name. Any background on that? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 3:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Cini, Richard wrote: > So, who invented the FAT filesystem we know today? Microsoft > (through Stand-Alone Disk BASIC)? Seattle Computer (through 86-DOS)? Microsoft. The "Stand Alone Disk BASIC" was used in Z80 machines. It used a seek-center DIR (track 17 or 20 of a 35 or 40 track disk, with a single sector "Granule Allocation Table", usually with 1/2 track for each allocation unit (8 bit entries)) THEN SCP wrote an 8086 system patterned after CP/M, but with a DIR structure BASED on that idea, but with a track 0 DIR, more sectors for the "FAT", and smaller allocation units (12 bit entries). (QDOS, later 86-DOS) I don't know what became of the 8086 Stand-Alone BASIC. THEN Microsoft bought rights to that OS for "Project Commodore" (their IBM contract). (PC-DOS, MS-DOS) LATER, DRI added FAT support to some of their products, and Apple based the original Mac DIR structure directly on FAT (MAJOR shortage of system programmers at the time??) > To paraphrase Artie Johnson..."Very interesting". I think so BTW, Cringely's version is COMPLETELY bogus. The Kildall eulogy is "accurate", but way too biased (delivery of some manuals to Oakland required Kildall stand up IBM, and couldn't be delegated?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Dec 12 12:11:25 2003 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 References: <3FD89E28.50301@gorge.net><002c01c3c0d3$7b9c9e40$0f5a96ac@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: <005001c3c0db$5bb27a20$0f5a96ac@aoldsl.net> pardon me... I meant I still need the name of the altair thief... not he mane ecch! I think my keyboard motor skills are getting worse. ----- Original Message ----- From: "vrs" To: "Ed Sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Stolen altair 8800 > > I still need the mane of the altair thief.... > > You can have the scalp as far as I'm concerned, but there may be others here > who wanted it :-). > > Vince > > From emu at ecubics.com Fri Dec 12 11:32:27 2003 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <3FD9FBAB.5030005@ecubics.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > From what I understand, the 11/73 and 11/83 are both J-11 cpus, the only > difference being that the /73 runs at 15MHz and the /83 runs at 18MHz. the 11/73 is a double, the 11/83 is a quad size board, 11/83 has also PMI, and was at the beginning a 15 MHz. OH, and the 11/83 has a very nice verbose Boot-PROM ;-) From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 11:32:17 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Stolen altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <3FD947A3.4060907@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Jim Davis wrote: > I just wondered if anybody had seen it. I'd just like to hassle the guy, > There's nothing else that can be done at this late a date. A good ass-kicking always makes one feel better (well, depending on which side of the ass-kicking you're on). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 11:36:13 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > Ok...I'm looking into the ADT route using apple oasis. A fine choice. > It looks like the 'Apple II disk manager' is the portion of apple ][ oasis > that I'd use to pull the text files out of my apple disk images and into > windows (for porting to hp200), is that right? Correct. > I'm a bit lost in the apple II disk manager interface. There is reference > to 'associations' and conversions. I assume they are referring to file associations (i.e. how can that file be opened? with WinWord? Excel? What?) > If I drill down in the file manager portion of the screen to a DSK image, > and see a file that I want to pull into windows, how do I do it? I've never used the software so I don't know. Don't they have a help file? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 12 11:38:23 2003 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: FAT file system now licensed by MS ? In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4177@MAIL10> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5FA4177@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20031212092327.G16591@newshell.lmi.net> As concessions to IBM's desire for secrecy, Microsoft put locks on some of the doors, window shades, etc. They knew that they couldn't keep a project of that size completely secret, so they named it "Project Commodore" as a bit of misdirection. As for references, ... I thought that I had read about it in one of the published histories, but it is possible that I heard about it in conversations with Bob Wallace. Bob was a very close friend who was the tenth employee of Microsoft, and the first to leave with substantial Microsoft stock. He died 9/2002 of causes probably unrelated to Microsoft. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Cini, Richard wrote: > You know, I just re-read this post after a few days and I noticed that the > project within Microsoft was "Project Commodore". I haven't read "Hard > Drive" or the other Microsoft history books in a few years, but I don't > recall ever seeing a reference to that project name. > > Any background on that? > > -----Original Message----- > I don't know what became of the 8086 Stand-Alone BASIC. > THEN Microsoft bought rights to that OS for "Project Commodore" (their IBM > contract). (PC-DOS, MS-DOS) From patrick at evocative.com Fri Dec 12 11:56:37 2003 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: FA: Collection of Apple, Radio Shack, Commodore Message-ID: Someone just posted a good-sized collection of stuff for auction on the Vintage Computer Marketplace. --Patrick http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=309 From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Dec 12 12:27:33 2003 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: DEC stuff available (old, but probably not old enough) Message-ID: <20031212182733.74886.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> I have the following: - 3 Personal DECstation 5000/25 (1 w/ 2.88 floppy) + manuals - 1 keyboard and mouse for the above - 3 DEC Storage Expansion units (2 with CD, BA46A, 1 without, BA42A); each has a 95MB CompacTape unit - ULTRIX v4.2 on CD, plus DEC Fortran for ULTRIX, v3.2 - 1 DECpc Lpv+ 405d2 1 DELNI 8 port hub Used to work, no idea about present state of operation or completeness. No monitors or other keyboards, mice or cables. DECstations have gooey feet. Located in Evanston, IL - northern suburb of Chicago. I'm interested in H8-H/Z89 stuff, Godbout/CompuPro docs, 8-bit single board computers, if you feel like trading something, but mostly I want to keep this stuff from the crusher, which is where it will go otherwise, come January. Best is if you come pick it all up, second best if you come pick some of it up. If I have to ship things, you will need to pay postage + a few bucks for packing materials and entropy reversal. FIFO distribution process, though local pickup trumps shipping. Jack From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 13:02:42 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: FA: Collection of Apple, Radio Shack, Commodore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Patrick Rigney wrote: > Someone just posted a good-sized collection of stuff for auction on the > Vintage Computer Marketplace. --Patrick > > http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=309 It includes some nice systems plus an Apple ][ "Red Book". This is the Apple ][ reference manual that Apple distributed with the first Apple ]['s before the "production" edition. It includes handwritten notes from Woz. This would be a good buy for a beginning collector, but some negotiation is in order. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 12 13:05:11 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: New finds, RFI Message-ID: <200312121405.11743.pat@computer-refuge.org> I managed to finally open up and look at the Westinghouse/Unimation roboto controller that's been sitting out at Purdue Salvage for the last few weeks, next to a robotic arm that probably weighs >1000lbs and has been stripped of some of its parts. To my suprise, I saw a bunch of what looked like QBUS boards in it... pulled one out and said 'this looks like an 11/23 CPU board. cool!' After getting it home, and seeing exactly what board it was, I discovered it was an M8192-YB... an LSI-11/73 CPU. Along with that was a 64kW SRAM board, a pair of DLV11-J 'clone' boards, and some robot controller hardware... This is a nice topping for the past week... so far in addition to this I've managed to get (for next to nothing): - A pair of Texas Instruments Business-Pro machines - 286-based DOS/ XENIX machines that looked complete (minus kb, monitor, cables) - A SPARC IPX and a few Type 4 keyboards - (OT) A Sun SparcServer 1000 with 3 boards and 5 cpus in it. - (OT) An HP C200 workstation with a high-end 3d accelerated video card - (OT) An IBM C20 workstation, maxed out with RAM Now the real question: Does anyone know anything about the TI Business-Pro machines? Specifically, what kind of monitor and keyboard do I need for it? The keyboard connector is an 8-pin DIN, and I don't see anything that looks especially like a video connector on it. Or can I use a serial terminal with it? I'm doubting it since it's a DOS machine, but not ruled it out yet... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Dec 12 13:09:25 2003 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: AIX PS/2 v1.2 - four sets of 3.5" floppies in binders Message-ID: <20031212190925.49349.qmail@web80202.mail.yahoo.com> The subject says it all - available for the cost of shipping + $5 hassle charge or else come get them for free. Buy me breakfast and I'll drive 50 miles in any direction (except due east) to meet you some weekend morning. Breakfast deal for the DEC stuff in previous message as well. Jack Evanston, IL - just north of Chicago. From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 12 13:31:40 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > The issue is that there's NO SUCH THING as an 11/84 > cpu card, since 11/84 systems use an 11/83 (ie qbus) > cpu with a Qniverter to convert to UNIBUS. Information that wasn't lost on me. I would like to know more about that qinverter, in time. Wasn't there an 11/93~4 too... Was this a J11 with more clock speed again? John A. From emu at ecubics.com Fri Dec 12 13:57:02 2003 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> <076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3FDA1D8E.70401@ecubics.com> John Allain wrote: > Wasn't there an 11/93~4 too... > Was this a J11 with more clock speed again? Nope. But all memory (fast !) was on board already, and 8 serial lines. From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Fri Dec 12 14:21:29 2003 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Databook Thincard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031212202129.BB06D43CF8@server1.messagingengine.com> You wouldn't happen to know if the stroage cards have the same pinouts as the ones on the Atari Portfolio storage cards, would you? On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:41:07 -0500 (EST), "William Donzelli" said: > I suppose I have one of these things, and really want to make it go away. > This is apparently a late 1980s precursor of the PCMCIA card - about the > same size, but the connections are different. Anyway, this little "drive" > (officially a TCD/1-E from Databook) is mounted in a cradle, so it fits > into a 5 1/4 half height bay. I have no idea what the interface is. > Tagged "Not for Life Support or Nuclear Use". > > So, anyone want this thing for a buck and postage? > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org -- David Vohs netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net -- http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service? From rich at sias.us Fri Dec 12 14:35:02 2003 From: rich at sias.us (Rich Sias) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Seeking user of "Option Board" from Central Point Software References: <3FD44446.25AD6C1D@nec.com.au> <04a801c3bf4f$0fda1d20$8f290b0a@kmhp.com> Message-ID: <00f401c3c0ef$be961750$8f290b0a@kmhp.com> Deluxe Option board v 5.4Copy 1.44 Meg floppies, tried 4 of them all have same fail codes.TCM A: C:FOOBAR /V /Q (may have track ranges) just by memory.TCM C:FOOBAR A: /V /Q (both set to retry 9x)The first one copies nicely and says good copy!The second one does NOT do "R" then "Q" for each track on two lines like the 1st one.2nd one tries "R" then probably tries 9 more times then doesnot put "Q" but puts "2" in first track attempted in both rows then says check destination disk and stops.======================= Geoff Reed ===============is it an original option board or the deluxe model? and what sort of floppies are you trying to copy with it? At 10:54 AM 12/10/03, you wrote: >I tried to use my old Option Board from Central Point Software and am having >difficulty in getting it to write tracks to floppy. It recognizes the option >board and appears to read ok. Who has used it successfully and remembers how >? > >Rich From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 12 14:43:00 2003 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org><076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <3FDA1D8E.70401@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <09ce01c3c0f0$88c064e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> All the talk about Qbus PDP11's is getting me a little anxious. I have a bunch of *almost11* parts, but no machine. Does anyone want to sell/trade either: 11/53 PROM images 261E5.hex and 262E5.hex -or- a M7506/M7458/M7558/? MSV11 memory board I've got chassis,CPU,O/S,controllers,drives,a drive formatter, comm boards,terminals (whew) but just need one of the above. John A. probably should wait till next month. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Dec 12 12:02:44 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So far, the help file doesn't appear to help. -Bob >On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > Ok...I'm looking into the ADT route using apple oasis. > >A fine choice. > > > It looks like the 'Apple II disk manager' is the portion of apple ][ oasis > > that I'd use to pull the text files out of my apple disk images and into > > windows (for porting to hp200), is that right? > >Correct. > > > I'm a bit lost in the apple II disk manager interface. There is reference > > to 'associations' and conversions. > >I assume they are referring to file associations (i.e. how can that file >be opened? with WinWord? Excel? What?) > > > If I drill down in the file manager portion of the screen to a DSK image, > > and see a file that I want to pull into windows, how do I do it? > >I've never used the software so I don't know. Don't they have a help >file? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Dec 12 12:21:35 2003 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see how I can drag a pc file onto the 'dsk' image and it puts it in, but I still can't see how get something on the apple .dsk file (for example, the hello program), and get it out of the .dsk file and into the regular windows filesystem where windows-apps can get to it. -Bob >On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > > > Ok...I'm looking into the ADT route using apple oasis. > >A fine choice. > > > It looks like the 'Apple II disk manager' is the portion of apple ][ oasis > > that I'd use to pull the text files out of my apple disk images and into > > windows (for porting to hp200), is that right? > >Correct. > > > I'm a bit lost in the apple II disk manager interface. There is reference > > to 'associations' and conversions. > >I assume they are referring to file associations (i.e. how can that file >be opened? with WinWord? Excel? What?) > > > If I drill down in the file manager portion of the screen to a DSK image, > > and see a file that I want to pull into windows, how do I do it? > >I've never used the software so I don't know. Don't they have a help >file? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From msg at waste.org Fri Dec 12 13:57:53 2003 From: msg at waste.org (Infra) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Aztec C-86 3.40a command line args In-Reply-To: <3FD96320.5020704@gorge.net> References: <3FD96320.5020704@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Jim Davis wrote: > > > I have the full manuals and all the disks. I'll take a look tomorrow and > see if it's for that version. > Jim Davis. > Much appreciated! Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum (msg _at_ cybertheque _dot_ org) From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 12 15:12:47 2003 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06><200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> <076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4686.4.20.168.113.1071263567.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > The issue is that there's NO SUCH THING as an 11/84 > cpu card, since 11/84 systems use an 11/83 (ie qbus) > cpu There most certainly IS an 11/84 CPU card. It happens that it's the same module as an 11/83 CPU card. They're both the KDJ11-B (M8190). When plugged into an 11/84 system, the KDJ11-B does NOT use Qbus. It uses a unique bus that is similar to Qbus, but has some significant differences. Also, the PMI (Private Memory Interconnect on the C/D edge connectors) in an 11/84 behaves a little differently than the PMI in an 11/83. > with a Qniverter to convert to UNIBUS. It's a KTJ11-B (M8191). It's not a Qniverter, or even similar to one. It is not capable of converting Qbus to Unibus (or vice versa). It ONLY works with the special CPU bus in the 11/84 and 11/94. The 11/84 uses MSV11-J memory. The MSV11-JB (M8639-Bx) and MSV11-JC (M8639-Cx) variants will ONLY work in an 11/84 but not in normal Qbus or Qbus/PMI systems. The MSV11-JD (M8639-Dx) and MSV11-JE (M8639-Ex) will work in either kind of system. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Dec 12 15:21:13 2003 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: AIX and DEC Fortran gone Message-ID: <20031212212113.14312.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> but I still have a stack of Decstations and the unforgettable DELNI hub. Jack From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Dec 12 13:08:45 2003 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <3FD9FBAB.5030005@ecubics.com> References: <003501c3c0cc$db6e34c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200312121137.17407.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3FD9FBAB.5030005@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20031212200845.028866b4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:32:27 -0700 emanuel stiebler wrote: > the 11/73 is a double, the 11/83 is a quad size board, 11/83 has also > PMI, and was at the beginning a 15 MHz. AFAIK that M8192 dual /73 CPU board was never used in DEC machines. It was targeted to the OEM market or to replace the dual /23 board used in embedded systems. The DEC /73 used the same CPU board as the /83 or /84 but with slower QBus RAM instead of PMI RAM and possibly slower CPU (15 MHz vs. 18 MHz). At least that is the information I found when I got my hands on two of the M8192 "/73" CPU boards. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 12 15:55:27 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Building a PDP-11 for the first time In-Reply-To: <4686.4.20.168.113.1071263567.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <076e01c3c0e6$91f576e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <4686.4.20.168.113.1071263567.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200312121655.27890.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 12 December 2003 16:12, Eric Smith wrote: > There most certainly IS an 11/84 CPU card. It happens that it's > the same module as an 11/83 CPU card. They're both the KDJ11-B > (M8190). > > When plugged into an 11/84 system, the KDJ11-B does NOT use Qbus. > It uses a unique bus that is similar to Qbus, but has some > significant differences. Also, the PMI (Private Memory Interconnect > on the C/D edge connectors) in an 11/84 behaves a little differently > than the PMI in an 11/83. Looks like I got my information wrong or something... Anyhow, so can the M8190 act as either an 11/83 (QBUS) or 11/84 (UNIBUS-ish) cpu? If so, the FIELD GUIDE should probably still be updated to indicate this, IMHO. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From jrice54 at charter.net Fri Dec 12 16:07:50 2003 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: New Haul Message-ID: <3FDA3C36.6020803@charter.net> My newest baby arrived today. I was recently contacted by a kind gentleman who was looking for a new home for some equipment. I was offered a NeXTstation, NeXT printer, N4000A monitor (clear and bright), SyQuest MO drive and a ton of software and documentation for free, just pay shipping. It just arrived, all in original NeXT boxes with the original invoice/packing slip from NeXT attached. The invoice is dated 1992 and shows a cost of $7995.00. It's now a second owner system. I can't wait to get it home and unpack it! James From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 12 16:19:14 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: OT: Email header question Message-ID: <1071266826.1307.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Hi all, In light of the recent thread about email headers, somebody may be able to help with this one. I don't normally have any problems with the emails that I send out; however one particular person who I send mail to complains that anything I send to him appears in a much larger (unbearably so) font than mail that he receives from anyone else. Maybe someone can have a look at the header on this message and see if there's anything obviously missing (it looks fine to me) FYI, a reply from him showed the following info about his client: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 I suspect I send email to a good many people using the same client / version, so there's nothing odd about that. I'm using Evolution as a client on a linux box, with sendmail doing the address munging so that my reply address appears correctly, so that's a little atypical but not *that* odd. Anyone shed any light on what's going on? I would have said it was a problem with his client, if he'd been getting the same font problem elsewhere, but it seems like his version of Outlook doesn't like mail sent by Evolution for some reason... cheers Jules From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Fri Dec 12 16:16:54 2003 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Email header question References: <1071266826.1307.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <016e01c3c0fd$a6e091e0$7f474ed5@geoff> My outlook express is 5.50.4807.1700 and everything looks fine here . Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 10:07 PM Subject: OT: Email header question > Hi all, > > In light of the recent thread about email headers, somebody may be able > to help with this one. > > I don't normally have any problems with the emails that I send out; > however one particular person who I send mail to complains that anything > I send to him appears in a much larger (unbearably so) font than mail > that he receives from anyone else. Maybe someone can have a look at the > header on this message and see if there's anything obviously missing (it > looks fine to me) > > FYI, a reply from him showed the following info about his client: > > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 > > I suspect I send email to a good many people using the same client / > version, so there's nothing odd about that. > > I'm using Evolution as a client on a linux box, with sendmail doing the > address munging so that my reply address appears correctly, so that's a > little atypical but not *that* odd. > > Anyone shed any light on what's going on? I would have said it was a > problem with his client, if he'd been getting the same font problem > elsewhere, but it seems like his version of Outlook doesn't like mail > sent by Evolution for some reason... > > cheers > > Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Dec 12 16:39:31 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: WTD: LC1552B, ITT 492-5 and NatSemi NSA298 data Message-ID: Hi, Someone's just given me a Commodore Minuteman 3MW (model MM3MW) calculator. The device itself is working fine, but I still need to replace the battery pack and charge connector (the batteries were rechargeable nicad, N size). Anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, I'd like to get some data on the ICs used inside it - these are: LC1552B / 7438 - looks like the main controller. Has some strange logo I've never seen before - kind of a _/- (a squared off S?) with a circle printed over the top. ITT / 492-5 / 7445 - these appear to be LED drivers. I've never seen a part number like this. BTW, the "7445" is printed vertically, the rest of the p/n is printed horizontally (as normal). NSA298 / NS 436 - the "NS" looks a LOT like one of National Semiconductor's old logos. Did NatSemi ever make LED display panels? Now, to finish satisfying my curiosity, does anyone know anything about the Commodore MM3MW? A schematic diagram or service manual would be nice :) Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 12 16:52:00 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Email header question In-Reply-To: <1071266826.1307.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 12 December 2003 22:07 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: Email header question > > that he receives from anyone else. Maybe someone can have a look at the > header on this message and see if there's anything obviously missing (it > looks fine to me) Looks fine from Outlook 2000, but then again it would. Your version of Evolution (1.2.2) is much more updated than mine on the webserver, but I suspect I'd get no problems there either. > FYI, a reply from him showed the following info about his client: > > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 *bites tongue* mmmmmf > problem with his client, if he'd been getting the same font problem > elsewhere, but it seems like his version of Outlook doesn't like mail > sent by Evolution for some reason... *tries to resist OE comment* *fails* Bollocks to it - OE is broken and one of the biggest wastes of ones and zeros ever to grace this planet after 'doze versions 1, 2 and 3. Oh, and ME, which should never have existed, ever. Out of all the flamewars I read on USENET most of 'em are either from or directed to OE users who think it's a USENET client AND a mail program AND a virus transfer agent. It does too many things by default that no self respecting mail client should, ie the 'preview pane' with FULL (micro$oft) HTML support, automatic decoding/opening of attachments etc, and before the OE supporters start jumping down my neck I KNOW these things can be turned off or disabled, mostly, but the vast majority OE users wouldn't know where to look or what to do. *successfully bites tongue about web pages created with frontpage express* cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 12 16:53:55 2003 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: New Haul In-Reply-To: <3FDA3C36.6020803@charter.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of James Rice > Sent: 12 December 2003 22:08 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: New Haul > > > My newest baby arrived today. I was recently contacted by a kind > gentleman who was looking for a new home for some equipment. I was > offered a NeXTstation, NeXT printer, N4000A monitor (clear and bright), > SyQuest MO drive and a ton of software and documentation for free, just > pay shipping. It just arrived, all in original NeXT boxes with the > original invoice/packing slip from NeXT attached. The invoice is dated > 1992 and shows a cost of $7995.00. It's now a second owner system. I > can't wait to get it home and unpack it! Nice! I'm still waiting for a chance to get down south to pick up the boxed NeXT stuff waiting for me, most likely once xmas is out of the way. *waves* at Kevan :) cheers -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Dec 12 17:04:26 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: New finds, RFI In-Reply-To: <200312121405.11743.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200312121405.11743.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20031212230426.GB8803@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 02:05:11PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I managed to finally open up and look at the Westinghouse/Unimation > roboto controller that's been sitting out at Purdue Salvage for the > last few weeks, next to a robotic arm that probably weighs >1000lbs and > has been stripped of some of its parts. > > To my suprise, I saw a bunch of what looked like QBUS boards in it... > pulled one out and said 'this looks like an 11/23 CPU board. cool!' > > After getting it home, and seeing exactly what board it was, I > discovered it was an M8192-YB... an LSI-11/73 CPU. Along with that was > a 64kW SRAM board, a pair of DLV11-J 'clone' boards, and some robot > controller hardware... Nice. Throw a disk controller on that (and some more RAM), and you'll have a good start on a 2.11BSD box (or RT-11, or RSTS...) With 64kW, I think you find that RT-11 is your best bet (but you'll still want a disk card, unless you want to fiddle with a TU-58 emulator hung off of your DLV11-J clone). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Dec-2003 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -13.2 F (-25.1 C) Windchill -34.2 F (-36.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.7 kts Grid 065 Barometer 706.4 mb (9647.5 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 12 17:26:52 2003 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: Email header question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071270884.1306.43.camel@weka.localdomain> Hiyas, > Looks fine from Outlook 2000, but then again it would. Your version of > Evolution (1.2.2) is much more updated than mine on the webserver, but I > suspect I'd get no problems there either. 1.2.2's actually getting a little old now, I keep on meaning to upgrade it just to see if a later version is any slicker (or a little faster; I run it across the network displaying on a remote desktop) > *tries to resist OE comment* > > *fails* > > Bollocks to it - OE is broken and one of the biggest wastes of ones and > zeros ever to grace this planet after 'doze versions 1, 2 and 3. > *successfully bites tongue about web pages created with frontpage express* you're in serious danger of setting me off too :P unfortunately my parents bought their PC with ME installed on it - the stability of that product is pitiful (no it isn't loaded up with all sorts of software, yes it is patched and virus / spyware free). And don't even think about actually accessing remote fileshares with it... you missed out mentioning Word's wonderful 'save as HTML' ability, btw ;-) I do have plenty of friends who do use OE and Internet Explorer and survive though, although it seems like at least once a week one of them complains of sluggish computer response, and a scan reveals their machine to be riddled with spyware... bletch! cheers Jules From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Dec 12 17:17:58 2003 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:50 2005 Subject: WTD: LC1552B, ITT 492-5 and NatSemi NSA298 data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031212231758.GD8803@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:39:31PM +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi, > Someone's just given me a Commodore Minuteman 3MW (model MM3MW) calculator. I'd be interested in any info as well. I have a genuine C= wall wart to go with mine, bought *years* later, in a box of assorted cables/mice/etc from a nearby thrift store. Mine seems to be having problems with dirty switch contacts. It's too erratic to use. I have not attempted to fiddle with the keyboard directly. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Dec-2003 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -13.5 F (-25.3 C) Windchill -30.3 F (-34.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 062 Barometer 706.5 mb (9643.7 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Dec 12 17:35:43 2003 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: WTD: LC1552B, ITT 492-5 and NatSemi NSA298 data In-Reply-To: <20031212231758.GD8803@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20031212231758.GD8803@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: In message <20031212231758.GD8803@bos7.spole.gov> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:39:31PM +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Hi, > > Someone's just given me a Commodore Minuteman 3MW (model MM3MW) calculator. > > I'd be interested in any info as well. I have a genuine C= wall wart to go > with mine, bought *years* later, in a box of assorted cables/mice/etc from > a nearby thrift store. Mine came with the power brick (it's more of a cube-on-a-wire), but I don't know if it came with the calculator. I assume it did - the calculator would be pretty useless without it. > Mine seems to be having problems with dirty switch contacts. It's too > erratic to use. I have not attempted to fiddle with the keyboard directly. This one's been sitting in a cupboard for roughly twenty years and it still works flawlessly. Unfortunately, being the clumsy idiot I am, I went and put a scratch in the back casing while I was trying to remove the corroded power connector. Even after a liberal dose of WD40 the locking nut refused to budge. In the end I grabbed the connector with a pair of heavy-duty sidecutters, snapped the plastic casing and destroyed the thread on the screw fitting. Needless to say, the locknut fell off rather quickly after that treatment - it had corroded onto the screwthread. Bah. Anyone know if there's a way to repair scratches in plastic? :) On a lighter note, I've managed to fix my dead Acorn A4 with the aid of a pair of 0.33 Ohm 0.6W flameproof resistors. There are two of them fitted between the 6-pin power connector and the IDE connector. After a half-hour desolder-and-replace session, the machine came back to life. Now I need to fix the wretched display data flat-cable - it's got a crack in it :-/ Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI (A)bort (R)etry (W)ire up to a Tesla Coil and watch it glow like a lightning bug. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 12 17:37:36 2003 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: WTD: LC1552B, ITT 492-5 and NatSemi NSA298 data In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 12, 3 10:39:31 pm Message-ID: > ITT / 492-5 / 7445 - these appear to be LED drivers. I've never seen a part How about a 75492? I think that's an LED driver? The 7445 part sounds like a date code... > number like this. BTW, the "7445" is printed vertically, the rest of the > p/n is printed horizontally (as normal). > NSA298 / NS 436 - the "NS" looks a LOT like one of National Semiconductor's > old logos. Did NatSemi ever make LED display panels? Very much so! IIRC the display in the Science of Cambridge MK14 was an NatSemi part (and was originally a calculator display). I've certainly seen a NatSemi LED (and display) databook, I may have one somewhere. -tony From jdickens at ameritech.net Fri Dec 12 17:49:30 2003 From: jdickens at ameritech.net (James Dickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: DEC stuff available (old, but probably not old enough) In-Reply-To: <20031212182733.74886.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031212182733.74886.qmail@web80212.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200312121749.30967.jdickens@ameritech.net> Hi Damm someone semi-local to me.. and he doesn't have anything i'm looking for.. I'm in milwaukee by the way. and interested in sun and SGI stuff... feel free direct offers to me James On Friday 12 December 2003 12:27, Jack Rubin wrote: > I have the following: > > - 3 Personal DECstation 5000/25 (1 w/ 2.88 floppy) + manuals > - 1 keyboard and mouse for the above > - 3 DEC Storage Expansion units (2 with CD, BA46A, 1 without, BA42A); each > has a 95MB CompacTape unit - ULTRIX v4.2 on CD, plus DEC Fortran for > ULTRIX, v3.2 > - 1 DECpc Lpv+ 405d2 > 1 DELNI 8 port hub > > Used to work, no idea about present state of operation or completeness. No > monitors or other keyboards, mice or cables. DECstations have gooey feet. > > Located in Evanston, IL - northern suburb of Chicago. > > I'm interested in H8-H/Z89 stuff, Godbout/CompuPro docs, 8-bit single board > computers, if you feel like trading something, but mostly I want to keep > this stuff from the crusher, which is where it will go otherwise, come > January. > > Best is if you come pick it all up, second best if you come pick some of it > up. If I have to ship things, you will need to pay postage + a few bucks > for packing materials and entropy reversal. > > FIFO distribution process, though local pickup trumps shipping. > > Jack From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 12 19:14:07 2003 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: AppleTalk file sharing with //gs References: Message-ID: <00ed01c3c116$693e2eb0$6501a8c0@laptop> > > I've done pretty much the same thing. (A schematic of my network is at > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/network.gif ) Unfortunately, I > > You know you're a total nerd when you take time to craft a pretty diagram > of your home network (yes, I've done the same :) Well, lets see it! > > > the ethernet. If either of these in on the network (the default condition) > > the //gs hangs in the chooser. I assume it's because of some filesystem > > Have you tried a later OS version? I'm pretty sure I've got 6.0.2 on it. I suppose the AppleTalk drivers could be hanging around from an earlier version. Worth a try at least. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 20:43:21 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: New finds, RFI In-Reply-To: <200312121405.11743.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > - (OT) An HP C200 workstation with a high-end 3d accelerated video card What card? I recently got in an HP Kayak XW workstation with an HP Visualize fx6 that originally listed for $40,000(!) It takes up the AGP slot and the adjacent PCI slot. It runs as hot as the Sun (and consumes amazing amounts of energy). They run on eBay for $75-$100 these days. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 20:45:27 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: HP2000 and old archive stuff NOT on 9-track (apple2 transfer??)?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Bob Brown wrote: > I see how I can drag a pc file onto the 'dsk' image and it puts it > in, but I still can't see how get something > on the apple .dsk file (for example, the hello program), and get it > out of the .dsk file and into the regular > windows filesystem where windows-apps can get to it. I assume you've tried double-clicking on the .dsk image icon to see if it pulls up a directory? Again, I haven't used the program so I wouldn't no, but it would seem logical. If I get some time this weekend I'll play around with it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 20:48:03 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: OT: Email header question In-Reply-To: <1071266826.1307.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12 Dec 2003, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm using Evolution as a client on a linux box, with sendmail doing the > address munging so that my reply address appears correctly, so that's a > little atypical but not *that* odd. > > Anyone shed any light on what's going on? I would have said it was a > problem with his client, if he'd been getting the same font problem > elsewhere, but it seems like his version of Outlook doesn't like mail > sent by Evolution for some reason... If I were you, I would make sure I was sending out plain-text ASCII messages first of all. There shouldn't be any way OE would misinterpret that (but I'm sure MS would figure out a way). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 12 20:48:23 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: New finds, RFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312122148.23930.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 12 December 2003 21:43, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > - (OT) An HP C200 workstation with a high-end 3d accelerated video > > card > > What card? I recently got in an HP Kayak XW workstation with an HP > Visualize fx6 that originally listed for $40,000(!) It takes up the > AGP slot and the adjacent PCI slot. It runs as hot as the Sun (and > consumes amazing amounts of energy). > > They run on eBay for $75-$100 these days. It's an fx4. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS Information Technology at Purdue Research Computing and Storage http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 20:51:26 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: New Haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Witchy wrote: > Nice! I'm still waiting for a chance to get down south to pick up the boxed > NeXT stuff waiting for me, most likely once xmas is out of the way. Helpful tip: Be sure you call the person and make sure they know you are still interested. I've lost good stuff because the (idiot) person on the other end thought my lack of communication meant I was no longer interested (even though I told them it would take a while) and they threw out the item. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 20:55:06 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: WTD: LC1552B, ITT 492-5 and NatSemi NSA298 data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Philip Pemberton wrote: > LC1552B / 7438 - looks like the main controller. Has some strange logo I've > never seen before - kind of a _/- (a squared off S?) with a circle > printed over the top. > ITT / 492-5 / 7445 - these appear to be LED drivers. I've never seen a part > number like this. BTW, the "7445" is printed vertically, the rest of the > p/n is printed horizontally (as normal). The 74xx numbers are most likely date codes. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 21:00:22 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: AppleTalk file sharing with //gs In-Reply-To: <00ed01c3c116$693e2eb0$6501a8c0@laptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > You know you're a total nerd when you take time to craft a pretty diagram > > of your home network (yes, I've done the same :) > > Well, lets see it! It's pertty outdated. I'd have to spend an hour updating it (VPN to the office plus the phone and voicemail networking that I still have to finish the design for :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Dec 12 21:07:09 2003 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:41:51 2005 Subject: New finds, RFI In-Reply-To: <200312122148.23930.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > What card? I recently got in an HP Kayak XW workstation with an HP > > Visualize fx6 that originally listed for $40,000(!) It takes up the > > AGP slot and the adjacent PCI slot. It runs as hot as the Sun (and > > consumes amazing amounts of energy). > > > > They run on eBay for $75-$100 these days. > > It's an fx4. That listed for $26,205 in October 1997 (congratulations: you own a piece of hardware that cost as much as your car did, but lost way more value). It's still one bad-assed video card, but again, the problem is that they consume megawatts of power (ok, not literally, but you get the idea). I ran my server for a few minutes and then went to pull the card and it nearly burned my hand. Those heat sinks need a couple fans. By the way, (OT) the BIOS on my HP Kayak XW apparently got zapped. I'm trying to run the emergency flash procedure (you set a swicth on the motherboard and then it boots off the floppy, loading the flash program and running it) but it's not working for me. The computer definitely loads the program off the floppy but then hangs. I don't hear the beeps I'm supposed to. I verified that the disk has no errors. Anyone have any experience with this? I'd hate this server to go to the scrap heap as it's mighty nice (on-board ultra-wide SCSI RAID controller, 512MB RAM, dual Pentium-II Xeon 450, diagnostic front panel LCD display). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 12 22:03:24 2003 From: pat at computer-refuge