From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Oct 1 00:27:01 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:38 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete Message-ID: A rescue not without it's glitches and travails - from the fact that it took somewhere plus-or-minus a year to get the equipment released from the Large Company where it had been mothballed - only the dedication of it's former sysop kept it from the Dumpster of Death, to several hurdles that had to be danced around in actually effecting rescue process. Thanks to Sellam for orginally brining it to my attention. Thanks to Marvin who, on very short notice, drove over 400 miles round trip to pick up the System, and whose van subsequently broke down and required towing to a service center, with the computers and software and manuals still loaded. Thanks also to two non-listmembers who went out of thier way to help us - one of whom worked for the aforementioned service center, where the Poor Van got locked inside for the evening, even though Marv requested that it be left out so we could transload it... I now have 2 11/44s set up as mirrored systems - if one failed the other could be switched over 'easily' - 2 SCSI HDs of unknown capacity (they're full-height and look like Seagates from the front - 1 RL02 - and an 11/23 used as a serial line concentrator. The system runs RSX-11M. A Blue Wall came with it, and about 20 diskpacks. Perhaps this coming weekend I will find the time to power it up and see how it's journey of years of storage and a thousand miles in vans and pickup trucks has treated it. Here's hoping it's still Happy!! Cheers and thanks to all who helped! John From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 1 01:28:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >used as a serial line concentrator. The system runs RSX-11M. A Blue Wall >came with it, and about 20 diskpacks. Out of curiousity just how old does RSX-11M have to be in order for it to have Blue Binders for the Doc's? I know RT-11 V3 rates Blue Binders, yet V4 and V5 are Orange, as is V4.2 of RSX-11M. In other words, just what version did you get? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From elmo at mminternet.com Tue Oct 1 01:37:01 2002 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Free in LA: TK50's - DEC Manuals - Commodore Pet - Dell P120 - Jaz Drives Message-ID: <3D96B9A3.9030303@mminternet.com> Help me with my pre-spring cleaning: I have several DEC Basic+2 manuals available in the small grey binders. About 20 TK50's - mostly VMS 4.0 - 5.0 distributions and updates, plus a couple LICENSE PAKs and a 3780 BSC emulator. A Commodore Pet 8032. A Dell Pentium 120 System (Chassis/CPU/Floppy, small HD, no memory - works.) A large assortment of wall warts, mostly 9 VDC. Several Multitech modem power supplies. Two Okidata low-profile laser printers - one 600, one 300 dpi, with toners and trays. (Recent feeding issues) A pair of 1 G SCSI Jaz drives. Miscellaneous ISA / PCI cards - video, network, sound. Promise ISA EIDE controller with BIOS. All yours for free. Pickup in Santa Monica. I have also a PDP-11/23 available for trade. Regards, Eliot From dogbert at mindless.com Tue Oct 1 01:37:10 2002 From: dogbert at mindless.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Hard year References: <00b101c267cc$e68d3b80$d2775243@n4fs> Message-ID: <3D97420C.1040002@mindless.com> Mike Feher wrote: >Sellam - > >I agree, completely. I also voted for Perot. But, between Clinton and Bush, >at least to me, there is a world of difference. > You're right. Never since Grant's administration has there been such rampant corruption, creepy secrecy, and disregard for the common interest as we've seen since Shrub/Ashcroft/Cheney took office. At least two of them are proven liars and crooks, and the remaining one is a religious freak. Improvement indeed. Give me almost any president in the last 100 years and it would be better than the dishonerable liar polluting the office for his oil and defense buddies. Corrupt to the core, even worse than Clinton's worst. That's a fact, and it's coming to light very slowly, but it IS coming to light. --- Ross > I still cannot believe that >the majority of the American people voted for Clinton, for two terms. I am >not claiming that Bush is perfect, but, he is a heck of a lot better in >every respect than Clinton, from what I can see, from an engineer's >perspective. As someone else pointed out previously, the people that can >really do a decent job at being president, unfortunately will not run, or do >not have the finances to even get it started if they were to. So, our >choices are limited. But, at least, we do have choices. Fortunately in this >country, I believe we have the momentum, and the will of the American >people, to make things continue, properly, during any administration. >Fluctuations in economy and world opinion will continue regardless. I am a >consultant, for the military, and as of the new fiscal year I do not have a >job. I do not blame any one for that. I will make something work out, as I >have enough confidence in myself and my abilities even at 57. Regards - Mike > > > >Mike B. Feher, N4FS >89 Arnold Blvd. >Howell NJ, 07731 >(732) 901-9193 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sellam Ismail" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 10:34 AM >Subject: Re: Hard year > > > > >>On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Mike Feher wrote: >> >> >> >>>Guys, I lived under communism. I am very happy here. You are all welcome >>> >>> >to > > >>>move. Regards - Mike >>> >>> >>Mike, I understand your sentiment, but there is no excuse for what we have >>for a political system currently, and who we have in office. >> >>Just because other systems were much worse than ours does not mean that we >>should not seek to make ours more honorable. >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> >> >Festival > > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >---- > > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> >> >http://www.vintage.org > > >> * Old computing resources for business and academia at >> >> >www.VintageTech.com * > > >> >> > > > > From dogbert at mindless.com Tue Oct 1 01:37:22 2002 From: dogbert at mindless.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Altair-what do I do first References: <3.0.6.16.20020929081532.4fcf959e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3D971938.6060608@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3D97534F.60809@mindless.com> Bob Shannon wrote: > Thanks for catching my typo Joe. The MTBF (mean time between > failures) is greatly REDUCED by unsoldering chips, often very > dramatically so. Hmm, I never even thought of this one before. Yet another general argument for sockets. :) I would think if you had an adjustable DC supply, you could gradually ramp up the voltage on the unregulated input and watch the output with a voltmeter. If it ever got to 5.25 volts, you'd not want to ramp any higher and replace the regulator. That wouldn't help with re-forming caps though. Maybe you'd start at the output of the regulator and work up from a very low voltage? Or would undervoltage hurt some components due to a mysterious process I'm not aware of? -- Ross > > > Ever notice the soldering specifications for TTL devices, like 300 > degrees C for not more than 10 seconds? This limitation is given for > the parts to meet their rated MTBF, not because 300 degrees C for 11 > seconds will destroy the parts right away. > > Resolder the parts, and you may be throwing away well over half their > service life. Clearly not a professional way to restore a machine. > For some repairs, we have no other option, but melting solder is a > last resort. > > > Joe wrote: > >> At 10:38 PM 9/28/02 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >>> If you think this does the least dammage, your grossly in error. As >>> a test engineer, I can direct you to any number >>> of volumes that will show you the dramatic increase in MTBF >>> >> >> I think you mean dramatic DECREASE in MTBF. But I doubt many >> people on this list even truely understand what MTBF is. I worked in >> reliablility, logisitics and maintainablity so I'm prpobably one of >> the few that would catch this. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> >> for >> >>> resoldered parts. This is known, for-sure dammage, not some risk of >>> dammage from a theoretical regulator failure. >>> >>> Care to defend this position? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 1 01:37:29 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Eulogy for Bob Wallace by Dan Gillmor Message-ID: Dan Gillmor wrote of Bob Wallace in his September 28 column in the San Jose Mercury: Bob Wallace, personal-computer software pioneer, philanthropist and activist, died last week in San Rafael. He had a too-short life, but accomplished more than most. Wallace was 53 when he died, apparently of natural causes, according to the Marin County coroner's preliminary report. He was one of the first Microsoft employees, but left in the early 1980s to start his own company, Quicksoft, which sold a popular word processor, PC-Write. He may be best known for his early contributions to the genre of software that became called "shareware"-- a marketing method in which people would buy diskettes with free-to-try software on them, or download it, and then let them buy it if they liked it. He had qualms about the commercial software industry, and once told the New York Times, "My philosophy is that I want to make a living, not a killing." Wallace worked, in college and afterward, with some of the industry's leading lights. He joined Microsoft in 1978. Wallace's interests ranged beyond the computing world. He was also known among drug-policy reformers, and funded medical and social research about psychedelic drugs. Wallace had many admirers, including his former employers at Microsoft and technology luminaries in Silicon Valley. "I remeber Bob as a gentle soul who was soft-spoken, but creative, persistent and meticulous in his programming and thinking," Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen told the Times this week. Rest in peace. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From robert_little_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 01:37:36 2002 From: robert_little_2000 at yahoo.com (Robert Little) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 and 720KB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <20020927205909.56506.29018.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20020930124337.59664.qmail@web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Got a question... I have just received an original IBM PC; actually, 2 of them (one had to be parted out). I still haven't checked the BIOS date, but the machine does have an origianl Intel 8088 and the power supply appears to be the original design. Here is the crux of the problem... I want to refit the machine with a 720 KB 3 1/2" drive. This was a fairly easy mod that we used to perform on XT's, but it seems to have problems finding the drive. Anybody out there have any experience with this? Robert __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 1 01:59:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 and 720KB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <20020930124337.59664.qmail@web20601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020927205909.56506.29018.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20020930124337.59664.qmail@web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42726.64.169.63.74.1033455610.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > I have just received an original IBM PC; actually, 2 [...] > I want to refit the machine with a 720 KB 3 1/2" > drive. Ugh! Am I the only one that finds this idea completely repugnant? The whole point of having an original 5150 is that it is *original*. If you want a PC with a 3.5" drive, you can find those *anywhere*. From jd at sourcecode.co.za Tue Oct 1 05:29:01 2002 From: jd at sourcecode.co.za (JD Gouws) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: new list member.. Message-ID: <8D3112E09D20A14CBDE1502C2EF752900A1662@scpdc.sourcecode.co.za> Hi Everyone I am new to this mailing list & thought a quick few lines as introductory would be ok. I'm a 23yo South African male Systems Developer (Read: microsoft monkey). Recently I acquired a lot of old computer systems and since then I have been collecting everything I can find that pre dates the general PC era. I will post a URL with a complete listing of all my current goods but here's a few I thought i'd mention seeing as there is very little about these on the internet: Intel Prompt 80, MDS-800 & ICE. I also have various atari/commodore/hp/epson/sharp/ncr computers & handhelds. As far as i know i have one of the only few surviving Multitech Microproffessor II (MPR II) machines which is a slightly modified clone of the original apple 2 & apparently the first apple clone to be shipped out of taiwan. Back to the intel stuff, who can help me learn to use the MDS & Prompt 80 machines? Programming on a IC level has always been something I've been wanting to get into but alas no newbie resources are readily availible.. is the Prompt 80 ok for this purpose? reg jD From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 1 07:42:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Altair-what do I do first In-Reply-To: <3D97534F.60809@mindless.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20020929081532.4fcf959e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3D971938.6060608@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021001084506.0ebf49de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:23 PM 9/29/02 -0700, you wrote: >Bob Shannon wrote: > >> Thanks for catching my typo Joe. The MTBF (mean time between >> failures) is greatly REDUCED by unsoldering chips, often very >> dramatically so. > > >Hmm, I never even thought of this one before. >Yet another general argument for sockets. :) Yes and no. I used to be all in favor of sockets but what I've found over the years is that sockets generally cause more problems than they fix. Yes they make repairs easier but electrolysis bewteen the IC leads and the sockets cause problems in time, even to the point to where the leads will corrode completely through and fall off or break when you try to remove them. In addition, ICs tend to creep out of the sockets and have to be periodicly reseated. Using GOOD quality sockets (gold pins) and ICs (mil-spec parts) minimizes problems but are EXPENSIVE (unless you're a good scounger like me and can get them free :-). My personal opinion is to do like most of the good manuafacturers have done and to install SSI ICs directly on the board and install EPROMs, CPUs and specailized parts in sockets. That seems to a good compromise between cost, repairablility and reliability. > >I would think if you had an adjustable DC supply, >you could gradually ramp up the voltage on the unregulated >input and watch the output with a voltmeter. If it ever got >to 5.25 volts, you'd not want to ramp any higher and replace >the regulator. > Of course you can. All the arguments about removing ICs to check the regulators is rediculous! Who in their right mind would remove 50 to 100 ICs to test one part with only three leads! If they're THAT worried about worried about the regulators it would be MUCH easier to remove it and test it by itself instead of removing all those ICs! >That wouldn't help with re-forming caps though. Actually it would. You're just powering the circuit from a variable DC supply instead of a variable AC supply and you're bypassing the transformer and retifiers. Maybe >you'd start at the output of the regulator and work up from >a very low voltage? Assuming that the circuits are designed to operate off of 5 VDC, you should be able to safely start at that voltage or maybe slightly less and then increase the voltage to the rated voltage (8 volts or so for S-100 type cards) while monitoring the output. (In fact, you can take the voltage all the way to the input limit of the regulator as long as the regulator can dissapate the heat generated.) If you want to reform caps at the same time then start lower, say 1 VDC. Another advantage of using a bench type power supply is that you can set a current limit in case a cap or anything on the board is shorted and the chances of doing any damage are greatly minimized. The current limit setting is sort of a SWAG. On a fully populated board I'd probably start at 1/2 of the rated current of the regulator and probably have to raise the setting to get it to operate. On a board that's not fully populated I'd reduce the current in proportion to the percentage of ICs that are installed on the card. I generally keep notes on how much current various devices draw, If you ever have to test a similar device those notes give a good starting point. I use bench power supplies like this ALL the type, IMO they should be a repairman's second investment after a good meter, even before buying an O'scope. Or would undervoltage hurt some >components due to a mysterious process I'm not aware of? It's POSSIBLE that some IC or circuit might latch up and cause a problem but I'd say the chances of that happening is between slim and none on a TTL circuit. I have seen that kind of thing happen on CMOS devices such as HP calculators but even there it doesn't do any damage, it just causes the device to lock up. Bear in mind that at this point we don't care if the circuit is operating, only that there aren't any shorts or things of that type. Joe > >-- Ross > > >> >> >> Ever notice the soldering specifications for TTL devices, like 300 >> degrees C for not more than 10 seconds? This limitation is given for >> the parts to meet their rated MTBF, not because 300 degrees C for 11 >> seconds will destroy the parts right away. >> >> Resolder the parts, and you may be throwing away well over half their >> service life. Clearly not a professional way to restore a machine. >> For some repairs, we have no other option, but melting solder is a >> last resort. >> >> >> Joe wrote: >> >>> At 10:38 PM 9/28/02 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>> If you think this does the least dammage, your grossly in error. As >>>> a test engineer, I can direct you to any number >>>> of volumes that will show you the dramatic increase in MTBF >>>> >>> >>> I think you mean dramatic DECREASE in MTBF. But I doubt many >>> people on this list even truely understand what MTBF is. I worked in >>> reliablility, logisitics and maintainablity so I'm prpobably one of >>> the few that would catch this. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> for >>> >>>> resoldered parts. This is known, for-sure dammage, not some risk of >>>> dammage from a theoretical regulator failure. >>>> >>>> Care to defend this position? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From voyager at hol.gr Tue Oct 1 07:51:00 2002 From: voyager at hol.gr (Voyager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 and 720KB Floppy Drive References: <20020930124337.59664.qmail@web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011101c26948$c72be660$0100a8c0@voyager3> use a power cable splitter to get the proper power plug, then a flat cable, with IDC connector instead the edge connector. I believe you could use a 3.5'' 1.44 drive right away (I did with a very very very old PC compatible). I think it should be better to have the 3.5'' as a second device. > I have just received an original IBM PC; actually, 2 > of them (one had to be parted out). I still haven't > checked the BIOS date, but the machine does have an > origianl Intel 8088 and the power supply appears to be > the original design. Here is the crux of the > problem... > > I want to refit the machine with a 720 KB 3 1/2" > drive. This was a fairly easy mod that we used to > perform on XT's, but it seems to have problems finding > the drive. Anybody out there have any experience with > this? > > Robert > > From voyager at hol.gr Tue Oct 1 07:56:00 2002 From: voyager at hol.gr (Voyager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 and 720KB Floppy Drive References: <20020927205909.56506.29018.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20020930124337.59664.qmail@web20601.mail.yahoo.com> <42726.64.169.63.74.1033455610.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <011901c26949$13495fa0$0100a8c0@voyager3> Don't be such a racist :-) You cannot always have software on 5.25 drives, or 5.25 drives on your ATX box. Is it so bad to be able to use a 3.5'' floppy on an old system? it's not necessary a sacrilege to use an old system, otherwise useless (without any software) > Ugh! Am I the only one that finds this idea completely > repugnant? > > The whole point of having an original 5150 is that it is > *original*. If you want a PC with a 3.5" drive, you > can find those *anywhere*. > > > From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Oct 1 08:53:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete References: Message-ID: <3D99A90E.EC60DB7E@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >used as a serial line concentrator. The system runs RSX-11M. A Blue Wall > >came with it, and about 20 diskpacks. > Out of curiousity just how old does RSX-11M have to be in order for it to > have Blue Binders for the Doc's? I know RT-11 V3 rates Blue Binders, yet > V4 and V5 are Orange, as is V4.2 of RSX-11M. In other words, just what > version did you get? Jerome Fine replies: Just a quick note of correction. As of V5.07, RT-11 DOCs were switched to GREY Binders. If I remember correctly, they were still ORANGE for V5.06, but that is not certain. But for sure, they were still orange for V5.04G and almost certainly still orange for V5.05 of RT-11. NOTE: V5.06 DOCs of RT-11 and V5.07 DOCs of RT-11 are identical EXCEPT for the release notes in V5.07 which are about an inch thick. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 1 09:05:01 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 and 720KB Floppy Drive Message-ID: <27.2e307915.2acb05b8@aol.com> In a message dated 10/1/2002 8:55:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, voyager@hol.gr writes: << > I have just received an original IBM PC; actually, 2 > of them (one had to be parted out). I still haven't > checked the BIOS date, but the machine does have an > origianl Intel 8088 and the power supply appears to be > the original design. Here is the crux of the > problem... > > I want to refit the machine with a 720 KB 3 1/2" > drive. This was a fairly easy mod that we used to > perform on XT's, but it seems to have problems finding > the drive. Anybody out there have any experience with > this? > > Robert >> Install the drive and start using it. Might need a cable adaptor depending on how old the 3.5 drive is. With a modern version of DOS, it will either work outright or you might need a DRIVEPARM statement to let DOS know it's a 720k. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Oct 1 09:39:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... References: Message-ID: <3D99B433.7080408@tiac.net> Some think all 1802's use the SOS process, but I beleive that this is not the case, its too expensive for normal parts. Some time back, I got a sample from an engineer at RCA, of a real rad-hard 1802 with extra instructions added to accelerate the Forth Kernel. I beleive that this is called either an 1805, or perhaps an 1806. So does anyone know what suffix is used to indicate the SOS process was used on a given 180x chip? J.C. Wren wrote: > Using www.cosmacelf.com, there are dozens of sites devoted to the 1802. >There are emulators for Windows, Palms, and probably *nix. In fact, just >the other night I converted Frankasm to run under Linux (didn't take much, >but I also went through the 1802 and base code, making prototypes >modernized, and basically getting it to compiled with -W -Wall GCC flags). > > Misc items: The rad-hard version of the 1802 was saphirre on silicon, from >what I've been told. You can pick up the RCA Studio II on eBay pretty >cheap. These are 1802 based. There is the Netronics Elf, Quest Super Elf, >and the RCA SA711 (I own 1 each of the latter, plus a couple of RCA Stdio >II's). One day I stumbled across about 110 pieces of CDP1802ACEs in Austin >Electronics. This got me on the 1802 kick, something I had always wanted to >play with, but never got around to. > > It's a neat instruction set. Not perfect, but powerful. Lends itself to >Forth quite well, and I imagine that a port of GCC to it wouldn't be >outrageous (not compared to braindead architectures like the PIC, at any >rate). Lots of nifty support chips. CDP1823 256x8 RAMS, CDP1861 video, >there are port expanders, larger RAMs, ROMs, the CDP1854 serial chip (found >9 boards on eBay, payed my board builder a couple bucks to desolder them >all), some other stuff. > > Expect to pay dearly for databooks. I won't mentioned what I've spent >lately, especially if Joe Rigdon won't (grin). > > --John > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On >Behalf Of Ben Franchuk >Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 22:11 >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Attention 1802 fans... > > >Ross Archer wrote: > >>The 1802 was used in quite a number of Amateur radio ("ham") >>satellites. >>It was one of the first relatively "rad-hard" micros from >>what I remember >>reading, due in large part to its CMOS construction. I >>guess those days >>there were a few PMOS CPUs (8008, 8080) and a few NMOS CPUs >>(Z80, 6502, >>9900JL), and exactly one CMOS CPU -- the CDP1802. So it was >>1802 or bust. :) >> >The other CMOS chip at the time was the PDP-8 on a chip. >The 1802 was I think was a special CMOS version that was >latch up and rad-hardened. Several CPU's are rad-hard but > the 1802 was the first cheap one. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021001/e4f61b4c/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 10:04:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... In-Reply-To: <015a01c268f3$5439c910$1301090a@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <20021001150533.58698.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Kearney wrote: > It goes beyond that... there is a Silicon-On-Saphire version which is > considerably more rad-hard than a pure silicon process. In fact even > more recent space probes like Galileo (launched 1989) used 1802s. While it's true that the Galileo _does_ have them and it was launched in 1989, it belies the fact that it was built from a spare Voyager frame. Galileo's design stems from the mid-1970s when the 1802 was a more popular platform for space hardware. Doesn't detract from how cool it is, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From jim at jkearney.com Tue Oct 1 10:04:29 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... References: <3D99B433.7080408@tiac.net> Message-ID: <01b101c2695b$f25c4970$1301090a@jkearney.com> According to this source, all the rad-hardened versions were SOS: "The COSMAC's that flew in space were space/radiation hardened versions using a CMOS/SOS chip technology. These radiation hardened versions were developed in conjunction with the Sandia National Laboratories." Other sources treat the two as separate options. There is also a "high reliability" version, which they designate with "/3". The datasheet is at http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn1/fn1441/fn1441.pdf. Maybe the SOS is "/2" or something like that? I recently built an Elf, BTW: http://www.jkearney.com/elf. It's not going into space anytime soon. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Shannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Attention 1802 fans... Some think all 1802's use the SOS process, but I beleive that this is not the case, its too expensive for normal parts. Some time back, I got a sample from an engineer at RCA, of a real rad-hard 1802 with extra instructions added to accelerate the Forth Kernel. I beleive that this is called either an 1805, or perhaps an 1806. So does anyone know what suffix is used to indicate the SOS process was used on a given 180x chip? J.C. Wren wrote: Using www.cosmacelf.com, there are dozens of sites devoted to the 1802.There are emulators for Windows, Palms, and probably *nix. In fact, justthe other night I converted Frankasm to run under Linux (didn't take much,but I also went through the 1802 and base code, making prototypesmodernized, and basically getting it to compiled with -W -Wall GCC flags). Misc items: The rad-hard version of the 1802 was saphirre on silicon, fromwhat I've been told. You can pick up the RCA Studio II on eBay prettycheap. These are 1802 based. There is the Netronics Elf, Quest Super Elf,and the RCA SA711 (I own 1 each of the latter, plus a couple of RCA StdioII's). One day I stumbled across about 110 pieces of CDP1802ACEs in AustinElectronics. This got me on the 1802 kick, something I had always wanted toplay with, but never got around to. It's a n eat instruction set. Not perfect, but powerful. Lends itself toForth quite well, and I imagine that a port of GCC to it wouldn't beoutrageous (not compared to braindead architectures like the PIC, at anyrate). Lots of nifty support chips. CDP1823 256x8 RAMS, CDP1861 video,there are port expanders, larger RAMs, ROMs, the CDP1854 serial chip (found9 boards on eBay, payed my board builder a couple bucks to desolder themall), some other stuff. Expect to pay dearly for databooks. I won't mentioned what I've spentlately, especially if Joe Rigdon won't (grin). --John-----Original Message-----From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]OnBehalf Of Ben FranchukSent: Monday, September 30, 2002 22:11To: cctalk@classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: Attention 1802 fans...Ross Archer wrote: The 1802 was used in quite a number of Amateur radio ("ham")satellites.It was one of the first relatively "rad-hard" micros fromwhat I rememberreading, due in large part to its CMOS construction. Iguess those daysthere were a few PMOS CPUs (8008, 8080) and a few NMOS CPUs(Z80, 6502,9900JL), and exactly one CMOS CPU -- the CDP1802. So it was1802 or bust. :) The other CMOS chip at the time was the PDP-8 on a chip.The 1802 was I think was a special CMOS version that waslatch up and rad-hardened. Several CPU's are rad-hard but the 1802 was the first cheap one. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Oct 1 10:05:01 2002 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:40 2005 Subject: Wang 2200 web site and emulator announcement Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021001014416.021e0ec0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Hello one and all. For the past three or four years, I've actively been looking for a first generation Wang 2200 computer. I actually have two now, mostly working. Over the past couple of months I acquired/developed all the technical information I needed to write an emulator. The emulator is far from complete, but it is quite usable. Besides the emulator, I've overhauled my Wang web site and added a lot more content. Now that the ball is rolling, I hope to maintain it more actively. The web site: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/wang.html The emulator: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/emu.html The emulator runs on win32 platforms right now, but I wrote it using a GUI/system abstraction toolkit, wxWindows, so it should be pretty portable to unix/linux/mac at least. If you have no nostalgia for the 2200, why is it interesting anyway? The first generation came out in 1973. Because it was designed before microprocessors were available, it is a microcoded TTL box. In many ways, it can be compared pretty fairly to home computers that came five years later. Because it predates Microsoft, it has a rich and quirky BASIC dialect. Unfortunately, I don't have any Wang BASIC documents online yet, but I do have a quick comparison of Wang BASIC vs early Microsoft BASIC. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 10:11:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021001151238.59561.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > You can pick up the RCA Studio II on eBay pretty cheap. Didn't someone on this list have "somewhere" an article or set of docs for converting a Studio II to an Elf-like computer? I got a Studio II from a buddy of mine. If there aren't any schematics out there, I could start with his - he annotated the entire inside of his unit. > Expect to pay dearly for databooks... Guess I was lucky enough to grab mine when they were current or just falling out of favor. I have a stack (not as large as what Joe recently sold) from 15-20 years ago that cost me cover price ($5) or free. What I _don't_ have that was appealing in that auction is the stack of newsletters. There can be some amazing stuff from those days - people who owned single-board computers were natural tinkerers, the kind that fell from prominence with the release of consumer friendly machines like the PET and the TRS-80 Model I and the Apple II. Not to say that those newer owners were never tinkerers, but getting your mom's permission to modify a $1,000 machine vs a $200 machine... well... the 1802 and other SBCs were easier to experiment with. > > It was one of the first relatively "rad-hard" micros from > > what I remember reading, due in large part to its CMOS > > construction. I guess those days there were a few PMOS > > CPUs (8008, 8080) and a few NMOS CPUs (Z80, 6502, 9900JL), > > and exactly one CMOS CPU -- the CDP1802. So it was > > 1802 or bust. :) > The other CMOS chip at the time was the PDP-8 on a chip. Right... the Intersil 6100, and later, the 6120. Available in the mid-1970s in the Intercept Jr. and a few other forms (not including the WT-78 word processor, etc.) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 10:16:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... In-Reply-To: <3D98FFCC.809EDE1B@topnow.com> Message-ID: <20021001151654.59141.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ross Archer wrote: > I suppose if e-bay prices go high enough for the chips, you > can always launch a mission to recover one of those sats for > the chip salvage. ;) They haven't been out of production that long, if indeed they _are_ out of production. I bought some Harris 1802 processors, new, in 1999. Besides, I'd like to see anyone recover Voyager 1 and 2. :-) > No doubt at any rate the 1802 was interesting and unique. Agreed. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 1 11:55:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 and 720KB Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <20020930124337.59664.qmail@web20601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Robert Little wrote: > Got a question... > I have just received an original IBM PC; actually, 2 > of them (one had to be parted out). I still haven't > checked the BIOS date, but the machine does have an > origianl Intel 8088 and the power supply appears to be > the original design. Here is the crux of the > problem... > I want to refit the machine with a 720 KB 3 1/2" > drive. This was a fairly easy mod that we used to > perform on XT's, but it seems to have problems finding > the drive. Anybody out there have any experience with > this? Did you set the dipswitches for number of drives? There is literally NO difference between the PC and XT for installing a floppy drive. What EXACTLY do you mean by "problems finding the drive"? What DOS error message do you get? What Int13h error number do you get? If you are concerned about maintaining the pristine "original" nature of it, then install the drive as the third or fourth (external) drive. The original PC and XT disk controllers had a DC37 connector for that. OR, find one of the "rare" IBM original 3.5" retrofit kits with the big faceplate. If you want MS/PC DOS support of it, then you need to use version 3.20 or above, and use DRIVER.SYS. (DRIVPARM is present in both MS-DOS, and PC-DOS (undocumented), but does not work properly with those original IBM BIOSes) Some OEM versions of 2.11 supported 3.5" drives, but those were custom versions, and MODE.COM, etc. may not be right for it. OR, use third party drivers, such as John Henderson's (Tall Tree systems)' JFORMAT. , or Manzanita, or, ... -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Oct 1 12:06:06 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: CPMUG Disk Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5126F8E@MAIL10> Hello, all: I'm preparing another release of the Altair32 Emulator and I wanted to start building different program diskettes. I remember sometime in the past someone on the list provided me with a file listing from the old CPMUG Archive and also provided a few ZIP files from the archive. Unfortunately, I can't find that person's email address. If someone has this archive (or a pointer to it), please contact me off-list. Thanks. Rich From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Oct 1 12:42:00 2002 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: "Food" for my HP 9000/382 Message-ID: <17wR32-1jI67MC@fmrl08.sul.t-online.com> Hi, i'm looking for another challenge for my HP 9000/382 ... Currently, i've installed NetBSD, but there seems to be a Pascal Operationg environment available ? Does anyone know some details ? Where can i get it ? Which other operating systems are available for that machine ? Thanks Bernd Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd@kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From n4fs at monmouth.com Tue Oct 1 13:34:00 2002 From: n4fs at monmouth.com (Mike Feher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Hard year References: <00b101c267cc$e68d3b80$d2775243@n4fs> <3D97420C.1040002@mindless.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c26979$2da766a0$d2775243@n4fs> Ross - I feel sorry for you. Hope your endeavors, in the classic computer collecting hobby, works out, regardless of your misguided beliefs. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ, 07731 (732) 901-9193 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Archer" To: Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 2:10 PM Subject: Re: Hard year > Mike Feher wrote: > > >Sellam - > > > >I agree, completely. I also voted for Perot. But, between Clinton and Bush, > >at least to me, there is a world of difference. > > > > You're right. Never since Grant's administration has there been such > rampant corruption, creepy secrecy, and disregard for the common > interest as we've seen since Shrub/Ashcroft/Cheney took office. > At least two of them are proven liars and crooks, and the remaining > one is a religious freak. > > Improvement indeed. Give me almost any president in the last > 100 years and it would be better than the dishonerable liar polluting > the office for his oil and defense buddies. Corrupt to the core, > even worse than Clinton's worst. > > That's a fact, and it's coming to light very slowly, but it IS > coming to light. > > --- Ross > > > > I still cannot believe that > >the majority of the American people voted for Clinton, for two terms. I am > >not claiming that Bush is perfect, but, he is a heck of a lot better in > >every respect than Clinton, from what I can see, from an engineer's > >perspective. As someone else pointed out previously, the people that can > >really do a decent job at being president, unfortunately will not run, or do > >not have the finances to even get it started if they were to. So, our > >choices are limited. But, at least, we do have choices. Fortunately in this > >country, I believe we have the momentum, and the will of the American > >people, to make things continue, properly, during any administration. > >Fluctuations in economy and world opinion will continue regardless. I am a > >consultant, for the military, and as of the new fiscal year I do not have a > >job. I do not blame any one for that. I will make something work out, as I > >have enough confidence in myself and my abilities even at 57. Regards - Mike > > > > > > > >Mike B. Feher, N4FS > >89 Arnold Blvd. > >Howell NJ, 07731 > >(732) 901-9193 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Sellam Ismail" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 10:34 AM > >Subject: Re: Hard year > > > > > > > > > >>On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Mike Feher wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Guys, I lived under communism. I am very happy here. You are all welcome > >>> > >>> > >to > > > > > >>>move. Regards - Mike > >>> > >>> > >>Mike, I understand your sentiment, but there is no excuse for what we have > >>for a political system currently, and who we have in office. > >> > >>Just because other systems were much worse than ours does not mean that we > >>should not seek to make ours more honorable. > >> > >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > >> > >> > >Festival > > > > > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >---- > > > > > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger > >> > >> > >http://www.vintage.org > > > > > >> * Old computing resources for business and academia at > >> > >> > >www.VintageTech.com * > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From glenslick at hotmail.com Tue Oct 1 13:43:01 2002 From: glenslick at hotmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... Message-ID: One thing I really regret is that I bought all of the parts to build an Elf back when the Popular Electronics articles came out (I was only twelve at the time) but never actually finished building it because someone my father worked with gave me a KIM-1 that he no longer needed and it was more interesting to use an already working computer than try to build one. I kept all of the parts and the articles until I returned home from college and then, gasp, threw them out. I really wish I still had them now so I could build the Elf that I never finished. I guess I should just acquire some 1802 chips and finish the job now. I also regret trading in the KIM-1 along with a 8KB ram board and a SWTP terminal that I built from a kit a year or two later for credit toward an Apple II+ when they were brand new. The mistakes of youth... -Glen >From: "Jim Kearney" >Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >To: >Subject: Re: Attention 1802 fans... >Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:05:14 -0400 > > >I recently built an Elf, BTW: http://www.jkearney.com/elf. It's not going >into space anytime soon. > >Jim > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 14:02:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 In-Reply-To: <3D8DCFFC.7742.7D3775E@localhost> Message-ID: <20021001190306.5346.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> At the Uni Surplus today, I spotted a lonely DEC 3000-300 with monitor and cables marked $35. It was more than I wanted to spend on it, but I hauled it over to the test table and plugged it all in. The monitor isn't stable, but it did go through its power-on tests, all the way to the "lazy sergant" prompt (>>>). It has 112MB of RAM and a 100MHz CPU. I was about to put it back when the Surplus manager apologized and said that she'd been meaning to mark it down. "$10 and it's yours," so now it's mine. Didn't take the time to boot it up. Figure it has Digital UNIX or OSF/1 on it. Got the keyboard. Needs a mouse. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 1 14:14:00 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 In-Reply-To: <20021001190306.5346.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 10/01/02, Ethan Dicks scribbled: > > At the Uni Surplus today, I spotted a lonely DEC 3000-300 with monitor > and cables marked $35. It was more than I wanted to spend on it, but > I hauled it over to the test table and plugged it all in. The monitor > isn't stable, but it did go through its power-on tests, all the way > to the "lazy sergant" prompt (>>>). It has 112MB of RAM and a 100MHz > CPU. I was about to put it back when the Surplus manager apologized > and said that she'd been meaning to mark it down. "$10 and it's yours," > so now it's mine. > Lucky bugger... :-P -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net Tue Oct 1 14:26:01 2002 From: cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Mistakes of youth (Was: Attention 1802 fans...) References: Message-ID: <001b01c26980$9af36d10$3200a8c0@winnt> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" > I > kept all of the parts and the articles until I returned home from college > and then, gasp, threw them out. I really wish I still had them now so I > could build the Elf that I never finished. I guess I should just acquire > some 1802 chips and finish the job now. > > I also regret trading in the KIM-1 along with a 8KB ram board and a SWTP > terminal that I built from a kit a year or two later for credit toward an > Apple II+ when they were brand new. > I once bought a complete, working Imsai 8008 at a pawn shop for fifty bucks. This would have been about 1987, and the deal included the computer, a terminal, and a dual 8" floppy drive. I used it for a couple of years until I got out of the navy. Deciding that it was too heavy to truck across the country, I gave it away. I really wish I hadn't done that, since I later found out that the guy I gave it to sold it to a scrapper for about 5 dollars. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Oct 1 14:29:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete References: <3D99A90E.EC60DB7E@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3D99F7E1.4283F938@compsys.to> >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > Just a quick note of correction. As of V5.07, RT-11 DOCs > were switched to GREY Binders. If I remember correctly, > they were still ORANGE for V5.06, but that is not certain. > But for sure, they were still orange for V5.04G and almost > certainly still orange for V5.05 of RT-11. Jerome Fine replies: Quick note of correction. Those GREY Binders for the DOCs were from V5.06 of RT-11. Since they came via Mentec in the late 1990s, it is still possible that when DEC originally released V5.06 in 1992 the Binders for the DOCs were still ORANGE. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 1 15:07:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A quick puzzle: When IBM came out with PC-DOS 3.20 (the first version to support 720K 3.5"), it documented DRIVER.SYS, but did not mention DRIVPARM. MS-DOS did document DRIVPARM. (NOTE: some OEM versions of 2.11 had direct support of 720K, often INSTEAD of 360K) When using MS-DOS on "real" IBM PC, XT, AT, and PS/2, DRIVPARM would produce "unrecognized command in CONFIG.SYS". When using PC-DOS on "real" IBM PC, XT, AT, and PS/2, DRIVPARM would produce "unrecognized command in CONFIG.SYS". When using PC-DOS on "real" generic clones, DRIVPARM would work. When using MS-DOS on "real" generic clones, DRIVPARM would work. When I put copies of the IBM BIOS into a generic clone, DRIVPARM would no longer work. Although I can't claim that my sample was enough to be truly certain, it certainly implies that DRIVPARM was incompatible with the IBM BIOS. The error message that was produced does not seem to be accurate as to what the problem was. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From voyager at hol.gr Tue Oct 1 15:20:01 2002 From: voyager at hol.gr (Voyager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: DRIVPARM References: Message-ID: <001d01c26987$829b1c20$0100a8c0@voyager3> Please correct me if I am wrong, but on the IBM PC motherboard there should be some jumpers or a dip switch array. Am I wrong? could anybody provide me with the functionality of these jumpers or switches? > A quick puzzle: > <....> > Although I can't claim that my sample was enough to be truly certain, it > certainly implies that DRIVPARM was incompatible with the IBM BIOS. > The error message that was produced does not seem to be accurate as to > what the problem was. > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 15:33:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021001203418.16980.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "David A. Woyciesjes" wrote: > On 10/01/02, Ethan Dicks scribbled: > > > > > At the Uni Surplus today, I spotted a lonely DEC 3000-300... 112MB > > of RAM and a 100MHz CPU...$10 > > Lucky bugger... :-P I think the Surplus Manager is still happy with me that I took the DEC 4000-710 off her hands (I really only wanted the TSZ07, but what DEC-head could resist a mini-class box with 192MB of RAM, 1 processor with a second one possible, 5 SCSI buses, disk and tape for less than the cost of shipping the tape drive?) I let her know that I'm interested in anything Digital. She's done a good job of keeping an eye out for me. Unfortunately, they don't get all that much DEC stuff; most of it left years ago. I keep waiting for some really classic stuff to show up, but not lately (I did get some 11/03s w/RX01s from these same guys ten years ago for $10, and some PET 8032s for about the same). They did have three SGI monitors today - two with BNC, one with SGI 13W3 connectors in and out. The "little" ones were under $25; I think the newer, bigger one was $35. One Mac 6100/66, no disk. IBM Selectrics. Thin pickings today. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 1 15:33:18 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 01, 2002 12:03:06 PM Message-ID: <200210012029.g91KTtE04316@narnia.int.dittman.net> > to the "lazy sergant" prompt (>>>). It has 112MB of RAM and a 100MHz I've always called (and heard others call) the prompt the "dead sergeant". -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 1 15:39:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: <001d01c26987$829b1c20$0100a8c0@voyager3> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Voyager wrote: > Please correct me if I am wrong, but on the IBM PC motherboard there should > be some jumpers or a dip switch array. Am I wrong? could anybody provide me > with the functionality of these jumpers or switches? On the PC, there are TWO switch packs. One for memory size, and one for various option, including number of drives, 8087 installed, etc. On the XT, there is ONE switch pack, and memory is determined during POST. Int 11h maps the switches into AX. Int 12h reports the amount of RAM. 1, 7, 8 are the number of drives 2 is co-processor (half are set wrong) 3, 4 is RAM on motherboard 5, 6 is monitor type -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From voyager at hol.gr Tue Oct 1 16:44:01 2002 From: voyager at hol.gr (Voyager) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM References: Message-ID: <000b01c26993$391ff5a0$0100a8c0@voyager3> Thanks! But, could you please give me more details on the ON-OFF and meaning? for example the 1,7,8 is for the number of drives. Up to 8 drives? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:40 PM Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Voyager wrote: > > > Please correct me if I am wrong, but on the IBM PC motherboard there should > > be some jumpers or a dip switch array. Am I wrong? could anybody provide me > > with the functionality of these jumpers or switches? > > On the PC, there are TWO switch packs. One for memory size, and one for > various option, including number of drives, 8087 installed, etc. > On the XT, there is ONE switch pack, and memory is determined during POST. > > Int 11h maps the switches into AX. > Int 12h reports the amount of RAM. > > 1, 7, 8 are the number of drives > 2 is co-processor (half are set wrong) > 3, 4 is RAM on motherboard > 5, 6 is monitor type > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 1 18:03:01 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: new list member.. In-Reply-To: <8D3112E09D20A14CBDE1502C2EF752900A1662@scpdc.sourcecode.co .za> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021001190658.4e47d9d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:28 PM 10/1/02 +0200, JD wrote: >Hi Everyone > >I am new to this mailing list & thought a quick few lines as introductory would be ok. > >I'm a 23yo South African male Systems Developer (Read: microsoft monkey). > >Recently I acquired a lot of old computer systems and since then I have been collecting everything I can find that pre dates the general PC era. > >I will post a URL with a complete listing of all my current goods but here's a few I thought i'd mention seeing as there is very little about these on the internet: >Intel Prompt 80, MDS-800 & ICE. Cool! which ICE unit do you have? I have an Intel MDS-800 with ICE-80, an Intel MDS-888 with an ICE-80, an Intel MDS-235 with hard drive with iCE-85 and ICE-86 and an Intel 320 system. I'm also storing another MDS-225 for a friend of mine. Dwight Elvey and Dave Mabry are also on this list and both have Intel systems and we all use them regularly. I also have various atari/commodore/hp/epson/sharp/ncr computers & handhelds. > >As far as i know i have one of the only few surviving Multitech Microproffessor II (MPR II) machines which is a slightly modified clone of the original apple 2 & apparently the first apple clone to be shipped out of taiwan. > >Back to the intel stuff, who can help me learn to use the MDS & Prompt 80 machines? Programming on a IC level has always been something I've been wanting to get into but alas no newbie resources are readily availible.. is the Prompt 80 ok for this purpose? A prompt 80? I've never seen one. I've seen a few Prompt 48s but never managed to buy one. I assume that it's for the 8080 CPU.? I suspect the Prompt 80 wil be fine, especailly when used with the MDS-800 and ICE-80. Joe (located in central Florida) > >reg >jD > > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 1 18:04:10 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: "Food" for my HP 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <17wR32-1jI67MC@fmrl08.sul.t-online.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021001185357.4e474bce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Bernd, AFIK all of the HP 9000 series 200s and 300s will all run HP Pascal, HPL and HP BASIC. FWIW the later versions (>5.x) of HP BASIC are frequently called RMB or Rocky Mountain BASIC. HPL is an APL like programming language that first appeared on the 9825. I have all three on my HP 9000 220. What do you want to know? Joe At 07:47 PM 10/1/02 +0200, you wrote: >Hi, >i'm looking for another challenge for my HP 9000/382 ... > >Currently, i've installed NetBSD, but there seems to be a Pascal Operationg environment available ? >Does anyone know some details ? >Where can i get it ? >Which other operating systems are available for that machine ? > >Thanks Bernd > > >Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd@kopriva.de >D-71397 Leutenbach >Germany > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 1 18:29:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: <000b01c26993$391ff5a0$0100a8c0@voyager3> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Voyager wrote: > Thanks! > But, could you please give me more details on the ON-OFF and meaning? for > example the 1,7,8 is for the number of drives. Up to 8 drives? FOUR drives. Switch 1 was whether or not there were any drives (probably actually whether it should attempt to boot from floppy), and 7 and 8 set how many. More detail than that will have to wait until sometime when I have the technical reference manual handy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jingber at ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 1 18:31:00 2002 From: jingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: <000b01c26993$391ff5a0$0100a8c0@voyager3> References: <000b01c26993$391ff5a0$0100a8c0@voyager3> Message-ID: <1033428631.2001.0.camel@supermicro> http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~preid/pcxtsw.htm IBM PC Switch block 1, near center of board: * Switch 1 * off = Boot from floppy * ON = Don't boot from floppy (goes to Cassette BASIC in ROM) * Switch 2 * off = 8087 Math Chip installed * ON = 8087 NOT installed * Switch 3,4 * ON,ON = One bank of memory * off,ON = Two banks * ON,off = Three banks * off,off = Four banks * Switch 5,6 * off,off = MDA (or Hercules) Video * off,ON = 40 column CGA * ON,off = 80 column CGA * ON,ON = No video or special (EGA, VGA) * Switch 7,8 * ON,ON = 1 floppy drive * off,ON = 2 flops * ON,off = 3 flops * off,off = 4 flops Switch block 2, near power supply: Switches 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 = Total memory installed * Memory installed - sw1 2 3 4 5 * 16K = ON ON ON ON ON * 32K = ON ON ON ON ON * 48K = ON ON ON ON ON * 64K = ON ON ON ON ON * 96K = off ON ON ON ON * 128K = ON off ON ON ON * 160K = off off ON ON ON * 192K = ON ON off ON ON * 224K = off ON off ON ON * 256K = ON off off ON ON * 288K = off off off ON ON * 320K = ON ON ON off ON * 352K = off ON ON off ON * 384K = ON off ON off ON * 416K = off off ON off ON * 448K = ON ON off off ON * 480K = off ON off off ON * 512K = ON off off off ON * 544K = off off off off ON * 576K = ON ON ON ON off * 608K = off ON ON ON off * 640K = ON off ON ON off * Switches 6, 7, 8 * Always off Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) On Tue, 2002-10-01 at 17:40, Voyager wrote: > Thanks! > But, could you please give me more details on the ON-OFF and meaning? for > example the 1,7,8 is for the number of drives. Up to 8 drives? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:40 PM > Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM > > > > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Voyager wrote: > > > > > Please correct me if I am wrong, but on the IBM PC motherboard there > should > > > be some jumpers or a dip switch array. Am I wrong? could anybody provide > me > > > with the functionality of these jumpers or switches? > > > > On the PC, there are TWO switch packs. One for memory size, and one for > > various option, including number of drives, 8087 installed, etc. > > On the XT, there is ONE switch pack, and memory is determined during POST. > > > > Int 11h maps the switches into AX. > > Int 12h reports the amount of RAM. > > > > 1, 7, 8 are the number of drives > > 2 is co-processor (half are set wrong) > > 3, 4 is RAM on motherboard > > 5, 6 is monitor type > > > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 1 18:48:00 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Voyager wrote: > > Thanks! > > But, could you please give me more details on the ON-OFF and meaning? for > > example the 1,7,8 is for the number of drives. Up to 8 drives? > > FOUR drives. > Switch 1 was whether or not there were any drives (probably actually > whether it should attempt to boot from floppy), and 7 and 8 set how > many. > More detail than that will have to wait until sometime when I have the > technical reference manual handy. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com There is a small program, the PC Magazine System Checkout Utility, called STATUS.COM which should answer many of your questions as well as show you the "status" of your machine's switch settings. I would guess that it is still around on the web somewhere that google can find it. If not, I can email it to you. - don From archer at topnow.com Tue Oct 1 18:52:01 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Altair-what do I do first References: <3.0.6.16.20020929081532.4fcf959e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3D971938.6060608@tiac.net> <3.0.6.16.20021001084506.0ebf49de@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D9A3568.61F9B747@topnow.com> Joe wrote: > > At 12:23 PM 9/29/02 -0700, you wrote: > >Bob Shannon wrote: > > > >> Thanks for catching my typo Joe. The MTBF (mean time between > >> failures) is greatly REDUCED by unsoldering chips, often very > >> dramatically so. > > > > > >Hmm, I never even thought of this one before. > >Yet another general argument for sockets. :) > > Yes and no. I used to be all in favor of sockets but what I've found over the years is that sockets generally cause more problems than they fix. Yes they make repairs easier but electrolysis bewteen the IC leads and the sockets cause problems in time, even to the point to where the leads will corrode completely through and fall off or break when you try to remove them. In addition, ICs tend to creep out of the sockets and have to be periodicly reseated. Using GOOD quality sockets (gold pins) and ICs (mil-spec parts) minimizes problems but are EXPENSIVE (unless you're a good scounger like me and can get them free :-). My personal opinion is to do like most of the good manuafacturers have done and to install SSI ICs directly on the board and install EPROMs, CPUs and specailized parts in sockets. That seems to a good compromise between cost, repairablility and reliability. I've definitely seen the case where reseating chips was necessary with sockets. There's no doubt you're right; the correct approach is to socket any chip that you might reasonably replace during the product's service lifetime (EPROMs), parts that can be user-populated, or any chips that are either exceptionally likely to fail or exceptionally difficult to remove. :) Still, I love getting a board with sockets, because it means it's easier for me to scavange (at worst) or repair. > > > > >I would think if you had an adjustable DC supply, > >you could gradually ramp up the voltage on the unregulated > >input and watch the output with a voltmeter. If it ever got > >to 5.25 volts, you'd not want to ramp any higher and replace > >the regulator. > > > Of course you can. All the arguments about removing ICs to check the regulators is rediculous! Who in their right mind would remove 50 to 100 ICs to test one part with only three leads! If they're THAT worried about worried about the regulators it would be MUCH easier to remove it and test it by itself instead of removing all those ICs! OR even better, wire a brand new 7805 or whatnot in a circuit with a resistive load to verify it works, then solder it in place of the old one, since regulators are so vital and yet so cheap. > > >That wouldn't help with re-forming caps though. > > Actually it would. You're just powering the circuit from a variable DC supply instead of a variable AC supply and you're bypassing the transformer and retifiers. I meant it wouldn't help if your variable supply was on the input side fo the regulator, rather than the output side. I'm tempted to experiment with a 7805 by applying a voltage on the output side and nothing on the input, to see if this is safe. If so, your idea of using a bench supply with current limiting, and possibly ramping up voltage gradually to re-form caps, is a zero-desolder, zero-tamper solution which ought to work well. > > Maybe > >you'd start at the output of the regulator and work up from > >a very low voltage? > > Assuming that the circuits are designed to operate off of 5 VDC, you should be able to safely start at that voltage or maybe slightly less and then increase the voltage to the rated voltage (8 volts or so for S-100 type cards) while monitoring the output. (In fact, you can take the voltage all the way to the input limit of the regulator as long as the regulator can dissapate the heat generated.) If you want to reform caps at the same time then start lower, say 1 VDC. > > Another advantage of using a bench type power supply is that you can set a current limit in case a cap or anything on the board is shorted and the chances of doing any damage are greatly minimized. The current limit setting is sort of a SWAG. On a fully populated board I'd probably start at 1/2 of the rated current of the regulator and probably have to raise the setting to get it to operate. On a board that's not fully populated I'd reduce the current in proportion to the percentage of ICs that are installed on the card. I generally keep notes on how much current various devices draw, If you ever have to test a similar device those notes give a good starting point. I use bench power supplies like this ALL the type, IMO they should be a repairman's second investment after a good meter, even before buying an O'scope. > > Or would undervoltage hurt some > >components due to a mysterious process I'm not aware of? > > It's POSSIBLE that some IC or circuit might latch up and cause a problem but I'd say the chances of that happening is between slim and none on a TTL circuit. I have seen that kind of thing happen on CMOS devices such as HP calculators but even there it doesn't do any damage, it just causes the device to lock up. Bear in mind that at this point we don't care if the circuit is operating, only that there aren't any shorts or things of that type. > > Joe Nice ideas. If one were really seriously into collecting, you could really make an argument for needing a good quality bench supply. Wonder what percentage of folks on classiccmp have one? I bet it's a fair number? (Me: 25 Mhz scope, logic pulser, logic probe, numerous VOMs, an RCL meter, an impedance meter, is it. I *knew* there was something neat I was missing!) :) -- Ross > > > >-- Ross > > > > > >> > >> > >> Ever notice the soldering specifications for TTL devices, like 300 > >> degrees C for not more than 10 seconds? This limitation is given for > >> the parts to meet their rated MTBF, not because 300 degrees C for 11 > >> seconds will destroy the parts right away. > >> > >> Resolder the parts, and you may be throwing away well over half their > >> service life. Clearly not a professional way to restore a machine. > >> For some repairs, we have no other option, but melting solder is a > >> last resort. > >> > >> > >> Joe wrote: > >> > >>> At 10:38 PM 9/28/02 -0400, you wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> If you think this does the least dammage, your grossly in error. As > >>>> a test engineer, I can direct you to any number > >>>> of volumes that will show you the dramatic increase in MTBF > >>>> > >>> > >>> I think you mean dramatic DECREASE in MTBF. But I doubt many > >>> people on this list even truely understand what MTBF is. I worked in > >>> reliablility, logisitics and maintainablity so I'm prpobably one of > >>> the few that would catch this. > >>> > >>> Joe > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> for > >>> > >>>> resoldered parts. This is known, for-sure dammage, not some risk of > >>>> dammage from a theoretical regulator failure. > >>>> > >>>> Care to defend this position? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From archer at topnow.com Tue Oct 1 19:02:00 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... References: <20021001151654.59141.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D9A37BF.1283EA88@topnow.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Ross Archer wrote: > > I suppose if e-bay prices go high enough for the chips, you > > can always launch a mission to recover one of those sats for > > the chip salvage. ;) > > They haven't been out of production that long, if indeed they > _are_ out of production. I bought some Harris 1802 processors, > new, in 1999. WOW. One thing for still producing the chip: I bet they've amortized the development cost by now. :) Have they cranked up the clock rates or made any improvements, do you know? I know you can get a WDC 6502 that runs at 14 Mhz, (I'm running one at 6 Mhz and it isn't too shabby, speedwise, but I had to screen a fair batch of 6522s and 65C51s to get ones that operated reliably at this bus speed), so maybe there's a 200 Mhz 1802 out there? ;) > Besides, I'd like to see anyone recover Voyager 1 and 2. :-) That would be one heckuva road-trip. I was being silly of course. If you needed an 1802 for an existing design badly enough, and couldn't buy a new one, you could undoubtedly create a clone of it on an FPGA on a little PCB and a 40-pin DIP header. It can't be a lot of complexity as 8 bitters go. > > > No doubt at any rate the 1802 was interesting and unique. > > Agreed. Another thing I recall is it was one of the few micros I knew of at the time that provided for easy tri-stating to take control of the bus, such as for DMA or even multiprocessing. Another legacy of being CMOS, I suspect. -- Ross > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 1 19:03:00 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Voyager wrote: > > > Thanks! > > > But, could you please give me more details on the ON-OFF and meaning? for > > > example the 1,7,8 is for the number of drives. Up to 8 drives? > > > > FOUR drives. > > Switch 1 was whether or not there were any drives (probably actually > > whether it should attempt to boot from floppy), and 7 and 8 set how > > many. > > More detail than that will have to wait until sometime when I have the > > technical reference manual handy. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > There is a small program, the PC Magazine System Checkout Utility, > called STATUS.COM which should answer many of your questions as well > as show you the "status" of your machine's switch settings. I would > guess that it is still around on the web somewhere that google can > find it. If not, I can email it to you. > - don It has one problem though. It is confused as to OFF and ON!!! - don From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Oct 1 19:07:00 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" Message-ID: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Greetings all; Finances suck at present, and to be honest I don't know if I'm going to be able to make VCF this year. (foo) So... in an attempt to free up some much needed $$ and keep the lights on, (and maybe even get to VCF) I'm having a "Garage Sale". (appropriate, no?) The offering list and details can be found at: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/Gsale Any questions, drop me a note. Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From archer at topnow.com Tue Oct 1 19:23:00 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Hard year References: <00b101c267cc$e68d3b80$d2775243@n4fs> <3D97420C.1040002@mindless.com> <00ed01c26979$2da766a0$d2775243@n4fs> Message-ID: <3D9A3CBA.47651369@topnow.com> Mike Feher wrote: > > Ross - I feel sorry for you. Hope your endeavors, in the classic computer > collecting hobby, works out, regardless of your misguided beliefs. Regards - > Mike Thanks, and a sincere wish things go well for you too. I would very much like to be wrong about the rest. Time will surely tell. -- Ross > > Mike B. Feher, N4FS > 89 Arnold Blvd. > Howell NJ, 07731 > (732) 901-9193 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ross Archer" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 2:10 PM > Subject: Re: Hard year > > > Mike Feher wrote: > > > > >Sellam - > > > > > >I agree, completely. I also voted for Perot. But, between Clinton and > Bush, > > >at least to me, there is a world of difference. > > > > > > > You're right. Never since Grant's administration has there been such > > rampant corruption, creepy secrecy, and disregard for the common > > interest as we've seen since Shrub/Ashcroft/Cheney took office. > > At least two of them are proven liars and crooks, and the remaining > > one is a religious freak. > > > > Improvement indeed. Give me almost any president in the last > > 100 years and it would be better than the dishonerable liar polluting > > the office for his oil and defense buddies. Corrupt to the core, > > even worse than Clinton's worst. > > > > That's a fact, and it's coming to light very slowly, but it IS > > coming to light. > > > > --- Ross > > > > > > > I still cannot believe that > > >the majority of the American people voted for Clinton, for two terms. I > am > > >not claiming that Bush is perfect, but, he is a heck of a lot better in > > >every respect than Clinton, from what I can see, from an engineer's > > >perspective. As someone else pointed out previously, the people that can > > >really do a decent job at being president, unfortunately will not run, or > do > > >not have the finances to even get it started if they were to. So, our > > >choices are limited. But, at least, we do have choices. Fortunately in > this > > >country, I believe we have the momentum, and the will of the American > > >people, to make things continue, properly, during any administration. > > >Fluctuations in economy and world opinion will continue regardless. I am > a > > >consultant, for the military, and as of the new fiscal year I do not have > a > > >job. I do not blame any one for that. I will make something work out, as > I > > >have enough confidence in myself and my abilities even at 57. Regards - > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike B. Feher, N4FS > > >89 Arnold Blvd. > > >Howell NJ, 07731 > > >(732) 901-9193 > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Sellam Ismail" > > >To: > > >Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 10:34 AM > > >Subject: Re: Hard year > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Mike Feher wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>Guys, I lived under communism. I am very happy here. You are all > welcome > > >>> > > >>> > > >to > > > > > > > > >>>move. Regards - Mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>Mike, I understand your sentiment, but there is no excuse for what we > have > > >>for a political system currently, and who we have in office. > > >> > > >>Just because other systems were much worse than ours does not mean that > we > > >>should not seek to make ours more honorable. > > >> > > >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > >> > > >> > > >Festival > > > > > > > > > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> > > >---- > > > > > > > > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > >> > > >> > > >http://www.vintage.org > > > > > > > > >> * Old computing resources for business and academia at > > >> > > >> > > >www.VintageTech.com * > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 1 19:25:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: PC SWITCHES (was: DRIVPARM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Don Maslin wrote: > > There is a small program, the PC Magazine System Checkout Utility, > > called STATUS.COM which should answer many of your questions as well > > as show you the "status" of your machine's switch settings. I would > > guess that it is still around on the web somewhere that google can > > find it. If not, I can email it to you. It is presumably just doing an INT 11h and parsing the bits of AX. I used to assign that as homework to my assembly language classes. That gave excellent practice with using AND, SHR, etc. But the switch settings no longer provide reliable info. Hmmmm. maybe I should assign reading the CMOS and displaying the information that it represents. > It has one problem though. It is confused as to OFF and ON!!! Each of the switches is switched to "open" for "YES". Therefore, "logical ON" became "electrical off" One of the first rounds of IBM's "Guide to Operations" had it backwards for the setting for the "Math coprocessor present" switch! That resulted in half of the machines being set wrong. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Oct 1 19:39:00 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 In-Reply-To: <200210012029.g91KTtE04316@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021002103904.02628c50@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 03:29 PM 1/10/2002 -0500, Eric Dittman wrote: > > to the "lazy sergant" prompt (>>>). It has 112MB of RAM and a 100MHz > >I've always called (and heard others call) the prompt the "dead sergeant". I always refer to it as the "triple arrow" prompt. I must have got this from either the local Digital engineer or possibly off comp.os.vms after we installed our first alpha in 1992. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Tue Oct 1 19:45:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BC@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> We call it "the chevron" here.. :) --fred > -----Original Message----- > From: Huw Davies [mailto:Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au] > Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:40 AM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Latest aquisition: DEC 3000-300 > > > At 03:29 PM 1/10/2002 -0500, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > to the "lazy sergant" prompt (>>>). It has 112MB of RAM > and a 100MHz > > > >I've always called (and heard others call) the prompt the > "dead sergeant". > > I always refer to it as the "triple arrow" prompt. I must > have got this > from either the > local Digital engineer or possibly off comp.os.vms after we > installed our > first alpha > in 1992. > > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" > > From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Tue Oct 1 19:50:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Hey all, Does anyone have info on this beastie? I'm trying to convince it to be nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( --fred -- InterNetworking, Network Security and Communications Consultants MicroWalt Corporation (Netherlands), Postbus 8, 1400 AA BUSSUM Phone +31 (35) 6980059 FAX +31 (35) 6980215 http://WWW.MicroWalt.NL/ Dit bericht en eventuele bijlagen is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Openbaarmaking, vermenigvuldiging, verspreiding aan derden is niet toegestaan. Er wordt geen verantwoordelijkheid genomen voor de juiste en volledige overbrenging van de inhoud van From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 1 20:22:01 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: new list member.. Message-ID: <200210020123.SAA14997@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Joe > >At 12:28 PM 10/1/02 +0200, JD wrote: >>Hi Everyone >> >>I am new to this mailing list & thought a quick few lines as introductory would be ok. >> >>I'm a 23yo South African male Systems Developer (Read: microsoft monkey). >> >>Recently I acquired a lot of old computer systems and since then I have been collecting everything I can find that pre dates the general PC era. >> >>I will post a URL with a complete listing of all my current goods but here's a few I thought i'd mention seeing as there is very little about these on the internet: >>Intel Prompt 80, MDS-800 & ICE. > > Cool! which ICE unit do you have? I have an Intel MDS-800 with ICE-80, an Intel MDS-888 with an ICE-80, an Intel MDS-235 with hard drive with iCE-85 and ICE-86 and an Intel 320 system. I'm also storing another MDS-225 for a friend of mine. Dwight Elvey and Dave Mabry are also on this list and both have Intel systems and we all use them regularly. > > > > I also have various atari/commodore/hp/epson/sharp/ncr computers & handhelds. >> >>As far as i know i have one of the only few surviving Multitech Microproffessor II (MPR II) machines which is a slightly modified clone of the original apple 2 & apparently the first apple clone to be shipped out of taiwan. >> >>Back to the intel stuff, who can help me learn to use the MDS & Prompt 80 machines? Programming on a IC level has always been something I've been wanting to get into but alas no newbie resources are readily availible.. is the Prompt 80 ok for this purpose? > > A prompt 80? I've never seen one. I've seen a few Prompt 48s but never managed to buy one. I assume that it's for the 8080 CPU.? I suspect the Prompt Hi Prompt48 is for the 8048/49/35 parts. I don't have one of these but I do have a Prompt 2920. Dwight 80 wil be fine, especailly when used with the MDS-800 and ICE-80. > > Joe (located in central Florida) > > >> >>reg >>jD >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 1 20:45:01 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Great Finds Today at Auction Message-ID: <001701c269b5$7ee3f1a0$e8010240@oemcomputer> 1. hp 25C calculator with case and quick reference guide but no charger. 2. Direct Logic 405 PLC by Koyo with DL440 CPU 22.5K word, I/O base 4 slot, DC input module, and 8 channel analog module. 3. Atari 130XE with a XF551 ext. FD (51/4) for it. 4. Magnavox Color monitor 40 5. Commodore 1084S monitor 6. Vtech The Equalizer laptop in the box with mouse, manual, and ac adapter for it. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 1 21:53:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <2345.4.20.168.172.1033527276.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> "Fred N. van Kempen" writes about the HP 7980S 9-track tape drive: > Does anyone have info on this beastie? Yes. It's basically the same as the 88780. I've got the user and service manuals somewhere. > I'm trying to convince it to be > nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( You can only tell it what density to use when writing. It autodetects for reading, and AFAIK there is no way to override that. From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 1 22:05:01 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: CPMUG Disk In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5126F8E@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Cini, Richard wrote: > Hello, all: > > I'm preparing another release of the Altair32 Emulator and I wanted > to start building different program diskettes. > > I remember sometime in the past someone on the list provided me with > a file listing from the old CPMUG Archive and also provided a few ZIP files > from the archive. Unfortunately, I can't find that person's email address. > > If someone has this archive (or a pointer to it), please contact me > off-list. > > Thanks. > Rich, come up on www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/SINTEL/CPMUG and you should be able to find your desired file. - don From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 22:58:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <20021002035905.62764.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Willing wrote: > So... in an attempt to free up some much needed $$ and keep the lights > on, (and maybe even get to VCF) I'm having a "Garage Sale"... Foo! Missed the high-speed punch/reader card. Been looking for one for a while. I have one punch/reader on an 11/34, another on a PDP-8/L (one PC04, one PC05; forget which one goes where at the moment). It would be very handy to have an OMNIBUS board to debug my -8/e. Sigh. That's the second one I've heard of too late recently. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Oct 1 23:32:00 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... References: <3D97880A.7080805@tiac.net> <20020929221733.GF25966@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.2.32.20020929230002.00789524@pop1.epm.net.co> <3D985818.8030502@tiac.net> <3D988D0C.4030906@tiac.net> Message-ID: <00c501c269cc$e36224a0$073bcd18@D73KSM11> Any chance you can post a scan of this board? I'd like to compare it to some of the ones from my Cosmac Development System -- scans at http://home.earthlink.net/~msmith6020/Cosmac/ -W > I've just found something rather rare, and I'm willing to part with it, > so... > > For Sale or Trade (Not listed on eBay!): > > An RCA CDP 1801 CPU board, New Old Stock, with matching edge-card > connector. The PCB artwork is labled "RCA GPA 3903822/02 PCA 47-5", and > "3901822". > > This is a 4.25 inch by 2.75 inch (including fingers) blue-colored PCB > with a 40-pin CDP1801UD data path chip and its > associated 28-pin SSTC TA6890W control store ROM, along with some > passive support components. The IC's are > in white ceramic with gold covers. Even the Beckman 22K resistor DIP is > in a white ceramic package. PCB traces are tinned over a blue > substrate, with a 44-pin gold edge finger connector. > > The mating connector is a Sullins ETM22DSEH in a matching blue color, > for some reason (because is looks really cool?). > > This two-chip CPU is a very early example of the RCA COSMAC CPU design > built prior to the much more common CDP1802 single-chip processor. > Dates codes are 7539 for the data path, and 7525 for the SSTC chip. > Condition is absolutely mint, NOS-condition, but untested. No > documentation, but I ~MAY~ be able to find something on this board, just > don't count on it. > > I'll also include a pair of vintage HP hexidecimal displays exactly like > those used on the original ELF project, to make this combo the starting > point for a really special ELF project. > > (Some ceramic 1852's may also be available) > > > > > From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Oct 2 00:00:00 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >used as a serial line concentrator. The system runs RSX-11M. A Blue Wall > >came with it, and about 20 diskpacks. > > Out of curiousity just how old does RSX-11M have to be in order for it to > have Blue Binders for the Doc's? I know RT-11 V3 rates Blue Binders, yet > V4 and V5 are Orange, as is V4.2 of RSX-11M. In other words, just what > version did you get? Seems to be V3.3, Fortran IV, and a Pascal of some kind.... Cheers John From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Oct 2 00:29:00 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: "Fred N. van Kempen"'s message of "Wed, 2 Oct 2002 02:50:59 +0200" References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <200210020515.g925F0e8059829@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > Does anyone have info on this beastie? I'm trying to convince it to be > nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( CONF 46 -Frank McConnell From luser at xtra.co.nz Wed Oct 2 02:14:00 2002 From: luser at xtra.co.nz (Kenneth Dunn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: DEC 3000 300 PSU Message-ID: Hi all, I'm in need of details on the DEC 3000 300 power supply. I've been give one that has none. The cost of getting a suitable PSU from Compaq USA to NZ is more than I make in a week. I'd like to try my hand at building one. Cheers. From stefan at softhome.net Wed Oct 2 02:15:00 2002 From: stefan at softhome.net (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: For swap : Philips NMS 8245 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021001231941.02285ab0@pop.softhome.net> Hi, I have here for swap a Philips NMS 8245 MSX2 system. Willing to swap for almost anything vintage computer related. Stefan. From aek at spies.com Wed Oct 2 02:15:12 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: microdata 9000 Message-ID: <200210012250.g91MoWKG018048@spies.com> the person auctioning the microdata on ebay forwarded a picture to me, which i've put up at www.spies.com/aek/microdata it's a model 9000 with a cipher 880 the auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2057885211 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 2 07:19:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:41 2005 Subject: microdata 9000 References: <200210012250.g91MoWKG018048@spies.com> Message-ID: <000f01c26a0d$e2cb7960$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> That's a SEQUEL machine... the last of the Pick machines from Microdata/McDonnel Douglas Computer Systems... except for the Series 18. The SEQUEL was a wonderful pick machine, capable of supporting around 120 users fairly well. If I wasn't behind the 8-ball cash-wise, I'd grab this system. I wrote a lot of the 1/2" Mag Tape code on the SEQUEL OS so there's some sentimental value there. I sure hope someone preserves it. One word of caution... this machine I believe (like most of the Microdata line I am sure), had the firmware on a board in the cpu chassis. This firmware was what translated the missionary (pick virtual assembler) instructions to native instructions. As a result, the machine is completely 100% useless without that board. It was very common practice in the final years of MDCS that when a system was decomissioned, the FE was required to go out and pull the microcode board. They considered the microcode board as something that was part of your maintenance contract (they retained ownership of the board), so if you were no longer paying maintenance they took the board so you couldn't use or resell the system (at least unless you sold it to someone who put it on maintenance). There have been a few of these found in the wild with the firmware board still installed. Anyone wanting to get this system should definitely check for that board first. Regards, Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: microdata 9000 > > the person auctioning the microdata on ebay forwarded a picture to > me, which i've put up at www.spies.com/aek/microdata > > it's a model 9000 with a cipher 880 > > the auction is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2057885211 > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 2 07:21:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <200210020515.g925F0e8059829@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <001f01c26a0e$1f6cb6e0$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> We still have quite a few 7980S units here in production. I'll see if I can find one of the manuals and look up the front panel magic. However, just going from memory, I seem to recall that the drive senses the last recorded density on the tape, and wants to keep using that. I'll look... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:14 AM Subject: Re: HP 7980S scsi 9-track > "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > > Does anyone have info on this beastie? I'm trying to convince it to be > > nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( > > CONF 46 > > -Frank McConnell > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Oct 2 08:42:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Mistakes of youth (Was: Attention 1802 fans...) References: <001b01c26980$9af36d10$3200a8c0@winnt> Message-ID: <3D9AF853.8070608@tiac.net> As long as we are all confessing... I actually shoved my beloved DEC Graphic PDP11/40 off the back of a truck, then saw it crunched by a massive electromagent hanging from a crane at the scrap yard. It smashed that 11/40 flat in a heartbeat. At least I'd saved most of its guts, and the 11/35 'spare' CPU chassis (now Tom Uban's) and VT-11 hardware. I was closing down a business venture, and had no place to store the machine. I still had a 11/34 at the time, so the massive and hungry 11/40 system simply had to go. Christopher McNabb wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Glen Slick" > >>I >>kept all of the parts and the articles until I returned home from college >>and then, gasp, threw them out. I really wish I still had them now so I >>could build the Elf that I never finished. I guess I should just acquire >>some 1802 chips and finish the job now. >> >>I also regret trading in the KIM-1 along with a 8KB ram board and a SWTP >>terminal that I built from a kit a year or two later for credit toward an >>Apple II+ when they were brand new. >> > >I once bought a complete, working Imsai 8008 at a pawn shop for fifty bucks. >This would have been about 1987, and the deal included the computer, a >terminal, and a dual 8" floppy drive. I used it for a couple of years until >I got out of the navy. Deciding that it was too heavy to truck across the >country, I gave it away. I really wish I hadn't done that, since I later >found out that the guy I gave it to sold it to a scrapper for about 5 >dollars. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021002/c3c89559/attachment.html From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Oct 2 09:16:00 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On 10/01/02, James Willing scribbled: > ... in an attempt to free up some much needed $$ and keep the lights on, > (and maybe even get to VCF) I'm having a "Garage Sale". (appropriate, > no?) > > The offering list and details can be found at: > > http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/Gsale > I don't think it's me, but the web server is not responding... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Oct 2 10:20:00 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021002112030.043403b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Jim - I couldn't reach your web site to get your address. Could you drop me a note with it so I can get the bucks out to you? Thanks! -- Tony At 05:08 PM 10/1/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings all; > >Finances suck at present, and to be honest I don't know if I'm going to be >able to make VCF this year. (foo) > >So... in an attempt to free up some much needed $$ and keep the lights on, >(and maybe even get to VCF) I'm having a "Garage Sale". (appropriate, >no?) > >The offering list and details can be found at: > > http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/Gsale > >Any questions, drop me a note. > >Thanks! >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Oct 2 10:31:00 2002 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: "Food" for my HP 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021001185357.4e474bce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17wlTV-0nIQbYC@fmrl08.sul.t-online.com> Hi Joe, i know the Pascal environment for the 9826/9836 machines, as i've used it for some months ... ... that was about 20 years ago :-) ... Can that version be used for the 9000/382 as well or is there a special one for the 9000/382 ? I've seen only 2 or 3 messages on dejanews regarding a pascal for the 9000/382, and i've found no product information, so i'm not sure, that there is such a version at all ... Bernd On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:53:57, Joe wrote: >Hi Bernd, > > AFIK all of the HP 9000 series 200s and 300s will all run HP Pascal, HPL and HP BASIC. FWIW the later versions (>5.x) of HP BASIC are frequently called RMB or Rocky Mountain BASIC. HPL is an APL like programming language that first appeared on the 9825. I have all three on my HP 9000 220. What do you want to know? > > Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 2 11:34:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Great Finds Today at Auction In-Reply-To: <001701c269b5$7ee3f1a0$e8010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021002123157.0ef775fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Nice finds! The HP 25 uses the HP 82041A charger in the US. There are other chargers for other countries with different AC power outlets. The charger puts out 10 VAC at 18 VA. You can probably get one from E-bay if you're willing to pay the price! Check you battery pack, it's probably shot. But they use two AA NiCad cells and they're easy to rebuilt. Just pop the plastic shell open along the seem and slip in two new cells with a strap across the one end. There's a spring in there that SHOULD provide continuity between the cells but don't trust it. They corrode with age and won't give you reliable contact. Joe At 08:46 PM 10/1/02 -0500, John Keys wrote: >1. hp 25C calculator with case and quick reference guide but no charger. >2. Direct Logic 405 PLC by Koyo with DL440 CPU 22.5K word, I/O base 4 slot, >DC input module, and 8 channel analog module. >3. Atari 130XE with a XF551 ext. FD (51/4) for it. >4. Magnavox Color monitor 40 >5. Commodore 1084S monitor >6. Vtech The Equalizer laptop in the box with mouse, manual, and ac adapter >for it. > > From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Wed Oct 2 12:54:01 2002 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 Message-ID: <002201c26a3c$e5dd68f0$6401a8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Hi, I've been asked to try to get some data (to CD) from some number of RK05 and/or RK07 packs. I have an old 11/73 floating around, but I believe the RK's were only for Unibus, so the drives alone wouldn't help me. My contact is unaware of the O/S, but I resume its got to be RT or RSX. (?) Is there anyone in or near NYC that can handle these? If you can get the files to a tape via COPY, I think we can take it from there. Regards, Chris Muller Muller Media Conversions www.mullermedia.com 800-OLD2NEW or 212-3440474 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021002/f6bcd76a/attachment.html From jss at subatomix.com Wed Oct 2 13:00:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? Message-ID: <190352238221.20021002125803@subatomix.com> Ok, I've got a friend in academia who wants to know: What was the first computer to support indirect addressing? While I expect no definite answer (as if I had asked "what is the first computer" :-), it should be an interesting discussion. -- Jeffrey Sharp From jss at subatomix.com Wed Oct 2 13:20:01 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 In-Reply-To: <002201c26a3c$e5dd68f0$6401a8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> References: <002201c26a3c$e5dd68f0$6401a8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <91353416055.20021002131741@subatomix.com> On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Chris Muller wrote: > I believe the RK's were only for Unibus, so the drives alone wouldn't help > me. There is an RKV11 Qbus controller. -- Jeffrey Sharp From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 2 13:26:01 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? Message-ID: <200210021826.LAA15529@clulw009.amd.com> >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > >Ok, I've got a friend in academia who wants to know: > > What was the first computer to support indirect addressing? > >While I expect no definite answer (as if I had asked "what is the first >computer" :-), it should be an interesting discussion. > >-- >Jeffrey Sharp > > Hi My Nicolet 1080 uses indirect addressing as its primary form of addressing. It was designed in the late 60's sometime. This is the only way to address out of the current page. Dwight From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 2 13:55:01 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay Message-ID: <200210021855.LAA15582@clulw009.amd.com> I see some of the strangest stuff on ebay: ROCKWELL's 6502 (100% 6800 code compatible) Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 2 14:11:00 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay References: <200210021855.LAA15582@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3D9B44BD.3080305@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I see some of the strangest stuff on ebay: > > ROCKWELL's 6502 (100% 6800 code compatible) > > Dwight That don't sound right!. The 6501 was 6800 pin out compatable but Motorola did like that idea. Thus the 6502 was born. From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 2 14:14:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" References: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <003901c26a47$feed9300$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> +AD4- http://www.rdrop.com/+AH4-jimw/Gsale +AHs-down+AH0- +AD4- Any questions, drop me a note. I look forward to being able to view this. Let me know how to do so, personally if it's necessary. Jim, you can email me a page too if it's less than 1MB. John A. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Oct 2 14:20:01 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay References: <200210021855.LAA15582@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3D9B4653.3ED36DEF@ccp.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > I see some of the strangest stuff on ebay: > > ROCKWELL's 6502 (100% 6800 code compatible) He probably runs windows XP on it as well, using it as a firewall/intranet server for the house. "It is best to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt." unknown . . Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Oct 2 14:34:00 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Searching for eBay seller "Mobybids" In-Reply-To: References: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021002153058.05bffeb0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Has anyone on the list dealt with the eBay seller known as "Mobybids"? He/she recently won a couple of auctions for some old DEC documentation. In particular, a teacher's guide ( I have the workbook, but not this) for the DEC Computer Lab really caught my eye, but I got outbid. I've tried sending a couple of eBay "Question from eBay member" notes to Mobybids, but got no response. I should probably take the hint and just stop trying, but I thought I'd run it by the list anyway, just in case. -- Tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 2 15:09:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Help Needed with NT 4 Password Message-ID: <000701c26a4f$ac8a2350$6e010240@oemcomputer> Just purchased a digital Prioris HX 5133DP server at a auction and it is password protected. It powers up ok and then ask for the admin password. Does anyone know a work around to get into this system? Can put a new version of NT 4 on top of it? I do have a legal CD that I got last year that could install on top if I will not lose the drivers that are already on the machine. Thanks in advance for any help. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 15:41:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 In-Reply-To: <91353416055.20021002131741@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20021002204235.56301.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Chris Muller wrote: > > > I believe the RK's were only for Unibus, so the drives alone wouldn't > > help me. > > There is an RKV11 Qbus controller. Yep. I loaned mine to Jerome Fine. Works like a champ. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 15:50:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 In-Reply-To: <002201c26a3c$e5dd68f0$6401a8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20021002205107.26037.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Muller wrote: > Hi, > > I've been asked to try to get some data (to CD) from some number of RK05 > and/or RK07 packs. I have an old 11/73 floating around, but I believe the > RK's were only for Unibus, so the drives alone wouldn't help me. As mentioned in another reply of this thread (I read from new to old), there is an RKV11D for the RK05s. AFAIK, though, there is only the RK611 controller for the RK07 drives - Unibus - in its own 9-slot backplane. I've seen them in their own enclosure, and alongside a DD11-DC in a full-sized BA-11. I used to have one, but it, the four RK07 drives (2 working, 2 spares) and the forty-some disk packs did not survive the closing of my employer 9 years ago. I got lots of stuff, but those had to be left behind. :-( > My contact is unaware of the O/S, but I resume its got to be RT or RSX. Knowing the filesystem will help. Plus, unless you have reason to exclude it off the bat, it could be RSTS as well. If I had to guess based solely on the media, I'd think that RK05 suggests RT-11 or RSX, and RK07s suggest RSX or RSTS. It's not that you couldn't use RT-11 with RK07 drives; it's that the drives were so large (28MB) and so expensive that it was a not-so-common configuration. > Is there anyone in or near NYC that can handle these? If you can get the > files to a tape via COPY, I think we can take it from there. I'm in Ohio and my RKV11D is in Canada. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 2 15:59:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Help Needed with NT 4 Password In-Reply-To: <000701c26a4f$ac8a2350$6e010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Keys wrote: > Just purchased a digital Prioris HX 5133DP server at a auction and it is > password protected. It powers up ok and then ask for the admin password. > Does anyone know a work around to get into this system? Can put a new > version of NT 4 on top of it? I do have a legal CD that I got last year that > could install on top if I will not lose the drivers that are already on the > machine. Thanks in advance for any help. I guess NT is just about 10 years old now, isn't it? Sick. Anyway, one way is to install the drive in an NT server where you know the admin password, and then access the "protected" drive from there. Next, you should be able to find info on the web that tells you how to crack NT passwords. You'll be able to get at the password file of the "protected" drive and then find out the admin password. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Oct 2 16:02:00 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? In-Reply-To: <190352238221.20021002125803@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <000301c26a56$dd67e320$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Ok, I've got a friend in academia who wants to know: > > What was the first computer to support indirect addressing? > I've taken this to be specifically memory indirect and not the use of index registers (or "B-lines" - invented in 1949). I would think, perhaps, that memory indirect was not really feasable until the use of core memory. Some datum points from manuals found on web. IBM704 (mid '50s) didn't GE 625/635 (mid 60's) did PDP8 (?) did CDC160A (1961) did The Manchester Mark 1 (1947-9) had an indirect jump (as well as index registers) ... this probably takes the prize, then. Haven't yet found a definitive answer as far as data access is concerned > While I expect no definite answer (as if I had asked "what is the first > computer" :-), it should be an interesting discussion. > Andy From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Oct 2 16:07:00 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Help Needed with NT 4 Password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/02/02, Sellam Ismail scribbled: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Keys wrote: > > > Just purchased a digital Prioris HX 5133DP server at a auction and it is > > password protected. It powers up ok and then ask for the admin password. > > Does anyone know a work around to get into this system? Can put a new > > version of NT 4 on top of it? I do have a legal CD that I got last year that > > could install on top if I will not lose the drivers that are already on the > > machine. Thanks in advance for any help. > > I guess NT is just about 10 years old now, isn't it? Sick. > > Anyway, one way is to install the drive in an NT server where you know > the admin password, and then access the "protected" drive from there. > > Next, you should be able to find info on the web that tells you how to > crack NT passwords. You'll be able to get at the password file of the > "protected" drive and then find out the admin password. > I had the same problem, when I picked up a Dec Prioris HX 5100 MP/2. It had NT 3.51 on it. Here's a link I have... http://www.nthelp.com/40/domain.htm ...I also found this one... http://is-it-true,org/nt/atips/atips262.shtml -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 2 16:09:01 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 In-Reply-To: "Chris Muller" "RK05 or RK07" (Oct 2, 13:55) References: <002201c26a3c$e5dd68f0$6401a8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <10210022212.ZM22971@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 2, 13:55, Chris Muller wrote: > > I've been asked to try to get some data (to CD) from some number of RK05 > and/or RK07 packs. I have an old 11/73 floating around, but I believe the > RK's were only for Unibus, so the drives alone wouldn't help me. My contact > is unaware of the O/S, but I resume its got to be RT or RSX. (?) The QBus equivalent of an RK11 is an RKV11-D, which is a single quad board, controlling up to eight RK05's. They were moderately common on larger 11/03 and some 11/23 systems. The RK06 and RK07 use an RK611 controller, which is a large multi-board unit occupying two system units, usually in an expansion box. There's no QBus equivalent that I know of. Emulex did make QBus boards that emulated an RK611, or more accurately, emulated the whole RK711 subsystem using a QBus SC02 controller and an SMD drive, but you couldn't connect a real RK06/7 to one of those. The OS could be RT or RSX, possibly RSTS or something more unusual like MUMPS. Even 7th Edition Unix has an RK driver. I think RT-11 or RSX-11 would be most likely, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Oct 2 16:11:00 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? References: <190352238221.20021002125803@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3D9B600A.693BF2B0@gifford.co.uk> Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > Ok, I've got a friend in academia who wants to know: > > What was the first computer to support indirect addressing? I was thinking about the LGP-30, as used by Mel, the Real Programmer. Did that have indirect addressing, or was it indexed? Mel wouldn't have used either of those new-fangled inventions, of course. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 2 16:26:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? In-Reply-To: <3D9B600A.693BF2B0@gifford.co.uk> References: <190352238221.20021002125803@subatomix.com> <3D9B600A.693BF2B0@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <3684.4.20.168.172.1033594052.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > I was thinking about the LGP-30, as used by Mel, the Real Programmer. > Did that have indirect addressing, or was it indexed? I'm not sure about the LGP-30, but according to the story, the RPC-4000 did have indexing. > Mel wouldn't have > used either of those new-fangled inventions, of course. Are you sure you grok the story? The story claims that Mel used indexing. In general, Mel would have used any available feature of the machine when it helped him improve his program. From martinm at allwest.net Wed Oct 2 16:43:00 2002 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Help Needed with NT 4 Password References: <000701c26a4f$ac8a2350$6e010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <005701c26a5d$c31a2ad0$0101a8c0@computerroom2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk@classiccmp" Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: Help Needed with NT 4 Password > Just purchased a digital Prioris HX 5133DP server at a auction and it is > password protected. It powers up ok and then ask for the admin password. > Does anyone know a work around to get into this system? Can put a new > version of NT 4 on top of it? I do have a legal CD that I got last year that > could install on top if I will not lose the drivers that are already on the > machine. Thanks in advance for any help. > > I used this: http://home.eunet.no/~pnordahl/ntpasswd/bootdisk.html a while back to change an administrator's password - worked well. Boot from the floppy and and change the password. Martin From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 17:08:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 In-Reply-To: <10210022212.ZM22971@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20021002220944.66876.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 2, 13:55, Chris Muller wrote: > > > > I've been asked to try to get some data (to CD) from some number of > > RK05 and/or RK07 packs... > > The QBus equivalent of an RK11 is an RKV11-D, which is a single quad > board, controlling up to eight RK05's. They were moderately common on > larger 11/03 and some 11/23 systems. Umm... _my_ RKV11D is a quad-slot box. There's a dual-height card that sits on the Qbus with a pair of 40-pin cables that go to a small enclosure that is mostly filled with an RK11D. Another set of 40-pin cables goes from that to a short dual-height paddle card that goes in the first drive. Is there more than one variant of the RKV11D? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 2 17:37:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? In-Reply-To: <3684.4.20.168.172.1033594052.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <190352238221.20021002125803@subatomix.com> <3D9B600A.693BF2B0@gifford.co.uk> <3684.4.20.168.172.1033594052.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4028.4.20.168.172.1033598290.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The story claims that Mel used indexing. OK, correcting myself, the story said that he did indexing by modifying an instruction rather than using the hardware indexing feature. But presumably he did this because it was more efficient in the cited example. In any cases where using the hardware indexing feature was more efficient, he would have used it. The point of the story is not "Mel's too old and set in his ways to use new features." The point is "Mel is an expert on every aspect of the machine, and knows the best techniques for using it." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 2 17:54:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I guess NT is just about 10 years old now, isn't it? Sick. MICROS~1 was demo'ing NT in 1991, right before announcing Windoze 3.10. The "dryrot logo" (which MICROS~1 calls the "flying windows logo" (in spite of pieces falling off of the left side) was introduced at the Microsoft Professional Developers Conference in August 1991 (along with Windoze 3.10). MICROS~1 didn't care that NONE of the developers, from whom they expected enthusiastic response, liked it. Might I formally propose that when we get to 2005, we revise the charter of this list to be 11 years? and in 2006, 12 years in 2007, 13 years . . . acceptable age = current year - 1994 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun anymore. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Oct 2 18:20:00 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: Tossing ICs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm fixing to toss 9 NEC D80C35C CPUs unless someone wants them for the cost of mailing. --John From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 2 18:21:43 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: RK05 or RK07 In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: RK05 or RK07" (Oct 2, 15:09) References: <20021002220944.66876.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10210030024.ZM23075@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 2, 15:09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The QBus equivalent of an RK11 is an RKV11-D, which is a single quad > > board, controlling up to eight RK05's. They were moderately common on > > larger 11/03 and some 11/23 systems. > > Umm... _my_ RKV11D is a quad-slot box. There's a dual-height card > that sits on the Qbus with a pair of 40-pin cables that go to a > small enclosure that is mostly filled with an RK11D. Another set > of 40-pin cables goes from that to a short dual-height paddle card > that goes in the first drive. > > Is there more than one variant of the RKV11D? No, you're right -- I don't know what I was thinking of there. An RKV11-D is basically an RK11-D with a QBus interface. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 2 18:26:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Oct 02, 2002 03:55:51 PM Message-ID: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> > Might I formally propose that when we get to 2005, we revise the charter > of this list to be 11 years? > and in 2006, 12 years > in 2007, 13 years . . . > > acceptable age = current year - 1994 > > > 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun anymore. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com The only problem is then you block stuff that falls under the non-Windows/"Really Cool Tech" catagories. I'd say retain the 10 year rule and just state that an exception to that rule is that Microsoft OS's newer than Windows 3.11 & x86 PC's with PCI slots are off-topic. Zane From jingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 2 18:35:01 2002 From: jingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? Message-ID: <1033515264.8470.3.camel@supermicro> It's been a long day. This was good for a laugh: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1772937615 Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 2 18:47:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The only problem is then you block stuff that falls under the > non-Windows/"Really Cool Tech" catagories. I'd say retain the 10 year > rule and just state that an exception to that rule is that Microsoft > OS's newer than Windows 3.11 & x86 PC's with PCI slots are off-topic. Ah, but then you exclude all the weird x86 386/486 hybrid boards with PCI busses ;) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 2 18:49:01 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: <1033515264.8470.3.camel@supermicro> Message-ID: On 1 Oct 2002, Jeffrey H. Ingber wrote: > It's been a long day. This was good for a laugh: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1772937615 Pfft... I needed that ;) Hey, it even has an UPS card and a light pen! :) -Toth From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Oct 2 18:51:01 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: <1033515264.8470.3.camel@supermicro> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021002194958.042a56f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Hey, somebody squished a cube and painted it white! :-) On a slightly more serious note, does the description mean it's running OpenStep? -- Tony At 07:34 PM 10/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: >It's been a long day. This was good for a laugh: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1772937615 > >Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Oct 2 18:53:00 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > The only problem is then you block stuff that falls under the > > non-Windows/"Really Cool Tech" catagories. I'd say retain the 10 year > > rule and just state that an exception to that rule is that Microsoft > > OS's newer than Windows 3.11 & x86 PC's with PCI slots are off-topic. > > Ah, but then you exclude all the weird x86 386/486 hybrid boards with PCI > busses ;) And that's a bad thing? -Pat -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Oct 2 18:55:00 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:57 AM Subject: Re: 10 years > > Might I formally propose that when we get to 2005, we revise the charter > > of this list to be 11 years? > > and in 2006, 12 years > > in 2007, 13 years . . . > > > > acceptable age = current year - 1994 > > > > > > 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun anymore. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > The only problem is then you block stuff that falls under the > non-Windows/"Really Cool Tech" catagories. I'd say retain the 10 year rule > and just state that an exception to that rule is that Microsoft OS's newer > than Windows 3.11 & x86 PC's with PCI slots are off-topic. I feel I must make a case that a 'classic' Win95 system should be on topic at the 10 year point. I still give my kids 486Dx's with VESA video and 95 to play games on and even do a bit of net surfing, play music cd's etc on stuff that most people consider beyond obsolete. It's worth noting that some classic games will run in a dos box on win95 and not on Win XP or ME. Some of the purists might consider ANYTHING MS offtopic under the same criteria, ie it was made by the Gates of Hell. Whilst I sympathise with the sentiments about Billie boy's software, I suppose we must maintain a timeline of systems and software, including, at the appropriate times, Win9x, NT and whatever comes after it. Remember that 30 years from now, when we have our 20Ghz pc's embedded in our forebrains and live video feeds to our optic nerves with 100mbps wireless connections to the internet, that a quaint P4-2Ghz with XP Pro and a 17" tube monitor might be a unique antique system.."You mean you had to TYPE stuff? And READ the results on a SCREEN? and you needed CABLES? WTH is a MODEM? Wow talk about primitive.... Uh, what's a picture tube? Uh, what's a Blue Screen of Death? Bill who?" Food for thought? cheers Geoff in Oz > > Zane > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 2 19:02:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: <1033515264.8470.3.camel@supermicro> from "Jeffrey H. Ingber" at Oct 01, 2002 07:34:16 PM Message-ID: <200210030002.g9302xT13645@shell1.aracnet.com> > It's been a long day. This was good for a laugh: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1772937615 > > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) Main thing I see with it is that the seller probably has no idea how little it's actually worth.... Either that or we don't. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 2 19:04:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Eros" at Oct 02, 2002 07:50:54 PM Message-ID: <200210030004.g9304KP13691@shell1.aracnet.com> > On a slightly more serious note, does the description mean it's running > OpenStep? > > -- Tony Nope, NeXTStep 3.3. For OPENSTEP you need to be running V4.x. Of course V4.2 was *also* shipped as "Prelude to Rhapsody". Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 2 19:43:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Geoff Roberts wrote: > maintain a timeline of systems and software, including, at the appropriate > times, Win9x, NT and whatever comes > after it. Remember that 30 years from now, when we have our 20Ghz pc's I can accept that viewpoint, except, ... it scares me to think that someday we might consider THESE to be the "good old days"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 19:45:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? Message-ID: Well I'm not sure as to indexing, but I know that the entire memory on the LGP-30 is the drum.. nothing else, well at least not programmable anyway.. and no, I/O devices aren't memory! heh _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From jss at subatomix.com Wed Oct 2 19:49:01 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <815978286.20021002194732@subatomix.com> On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Geoff Roberts wrote: > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > > 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun > > > anymore. > > > > The only problem is then you block stuff that falls under the > > non-Windows/"Really Cool Tech" catagories. I'd say retain the 10 year > > rule and just state that an exception to that rule is that Microsoft > > OS's newer than Windows 3.11 & x86 PC's with PCI slots are off-topic. > > I suppose we must maintain a timeline of systems and software, including, > at the appropriate times, Win9x, NT and whatever comes after it. Remember > that 30 years from now ... a quaint P4-2Ghz with XP Pro and a 17" tube > monitor might be a unique antique system. Would anyone object to adding an official 'cool factor clause' to the 10-year rule? We already sorta have that now, where a newer computer (e.g. mid-90s SGI MIPS) has sufficient cool factor that we're ok with it. All we need is a concept of negative cool factor, so that some computers (e.g. Packard Bell PC) might never be on-topic. In reality, this isn't any more ambiguous than what we already have. The other option would be to develop some sort of unit for classicity and set a threshold above which a machine is on-topic. -- Jeffrey Sharp From jwest at imail.kwcorp.com Wed Oct 2 19:56:00 2002 From: jwest at imail.kwcorp.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available Message-ID: <005701c26a0f$2b83b220$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Oct 2 19:57:41 2002 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3D9AE9B7.9C9334C9@reeltapetransfer.com> I have user guide to 7980A. I could fax the config pages if you'd like. Keven Miller kevenm@reeltapetransfer.com From robert_little_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 2 19:59:20 2002 From: robert_little_2000 at yahoo.com (Robert Little) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: 5150 & 720 KB FD In-Reply-To: <20021002071325.99317.35888.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20021002130633.61561.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> Think I found the problems.... Machine #2 (the one I'm rebuilding) had its DIP's set for a single drive. After correcting that, still failed to work, so decided to check out the 720 itself... AH HA! Of course it wouldn't work. It was a dead drive. As for the purist out there who shudder at the thought of adding later components to such a classic, I should mention that I'm an astronomer. I don't have the systems as collectibles, I use them. Yup, that's right... when you're on a budget, you have to make everything work. This ol' PC is basically just going to serve as a real time clock. With CGA monitors they are good for that... Better that then have it go to the landfill (as is too often the case...) Robert Little Astronomer Talcott Mountain Science Center __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Oct 2 20:00:54 2002 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <200210020630010536.A11A5529@192.168.42.129> Good day, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 02-Oct-02 at 02:50 Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >Hey all, > >Does anyone have info on this beastie? I'm trying to convince it to be >nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( I had an 88170 at one time. They're pretty much the same as the 7980. It will automatically sense the density of the tape you load, and will lock itself to said density, and it should certainly be able to handle all three of the standards (800, 1600, 6250). Bear in mind that you'll need some fairly specialized (and expensive -- in the $300 region) software if you want to use that drive on any sort of PC. Good hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From stefan at softhome.net Wed Oct 2 20:02:33 2002 From: stefan at softhome.net (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:42 2005 Subject: For swap/sale : Digital LAX34-JL Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002211029.028f0898@pop.softhome.net> This is a set of special character keys. Probably for the LA34 DECwriter IV. See http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/LAX34/ for the only related pic I could find. 100% new, I only opened the box to see what was in it. Willing to swap or sell it. yours, Stefan. From stefan at softhome.net Wed Oct 2 20:04:07 2002 From: stefan at softhome.net (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Digital T2011 Board Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002211653.02953fd8@pop.softhome.net> Anybody interested in this board ? Its a CPU board, and I even looked it up, but I forgot. So if anyone wants anymore info let me know. Stefan. From f.heite at hccnet.nl Wed Oct 2 20:05:41 2002 From: f.heite at hccnet.nl (Freek Heite) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Looking for CP/M-86 for Compudata Tulip System I Message-ID: <200210021955.VAA28888@smtp.hccnet.nl> Hello, Someone out there who has the CP/M-86 software for the Dutch-made Compudata Tulip System I? It's an 8086-machine that is hardly IBM-compatible (as it was introduced before the IBM PC). The BIOS is completely different from IBM-PC-standards. Under Tulip's MS-DOS (which was also available when buying this machine) it has a whopping TPA of about 900 KB, as the video RAM is somewhere at the top of the 1 megabyte memory, and there are no expansion cards with their own BIOSses. The 5,25 inch diskettes could store ca. 800 KB each. Thanks, Freek Heite From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 2 20:07:14 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: VCF Gazette Volume 1 Issue 3 Message-ID: VCF Gazette Volume 1, Issue 3 A Newsletter for the Vintage Computer Festival October 1, 2002 Hello Vintage Computer Fans! The VCF Gazette is back again with more news about the Vintage Computer Festival. In this issue: VCF 5.0 Venue Change VCF 5.0 General Information VCF 5.0 Special Events VCF Open House Update Latest Additions to the VCF Archives VCF 5.0 Venue Change -------------------- The VCF is pleased to announce that this year's Vintage Computer Festival is being sponsored by the Computer History Museum. This sponsorship has enabled the VCF to be held at the Moffett Training & Conference Center at the Moffett Federal Airfield in Mountain View, California. The move has several advantages, including tighter integration with the tours to the Computer History Museum's Visible Storage exhibit area. Tours of the Air & Space Museum will also be available. The Computer History Museum has always shown support for the VCF in the past by exhibiting terrific artifacts from their collection in the VCF Exhibit. We greatly appreciate this new level of commitment to and support of the Vintage Computer Festival! VCF 5.0 General Information --------------------------- Vintage Computer Festival 5.0 is scheduled for October 26th and 27th. Doors open at 9:00AM each day, with talks beginning at 10:00AM and running until 2:00PM. The Exhibit and Marketplace is open from 2:00PM until 6:00PM each day. The admission to VCF 5.0 is $10 per person per day for full access to Speakers, the Exhibition and the Marketplace, or $4 per person per day for Exhibition and Marketplace access only. Kids 17 and under are admitted free of charge, and parking is free. VCF 5.0 is being held at the Moffett Training & Conference Center at Moffett Federal Airfield in Mountain View, California. Check the VCF 5.0 website for more details and directions. LODGING The VCF has reserved a room block at the County Inn in Mountain View, California, which is a short drive or walk to Moffett Field. The room rate is $69 per night for single or double occupany. Reservation information as well as information on other area hotels can be found on the VCF 5.0 Lodging page: http://www.vintage.org/2002/main/lodging.php EXHIBITORS If you wanted to an exhibit a computer from your collection, there is still time to register. To register as an exhibitor, please go to: http://www.vintage.org/2002/main/exhibit.php VENDORS The VCF still has vendor booths available. The VCF Marketplace is the best place to sell your old computer items to a targeted market. You may also sell items on consignment and leave the hassle to us. For more information on the VCF Marketplace and consignment sales, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/2002/main/vendor.php VCF 5.0 BBS The VCF has just launched a bulletin board system on the VCF 5.0 website to enable attendees to communicate with each other before the event to arrange trades, form carpools, and discuss the VCF in general. The BBS can be accessed here: http://www.vintage.org/2002/main/bbs.php FOREIGN NATIONALS Foreign nationals can disregard previous announcements about the requirement to register in advance in order to be allowed access to Moffett Federal Airfield. The confusion with the entry procedures was caused by a miscommunication. Foreign nationals will be allowed onto the base just as any United States citizen, but as is required for all persons entering the base, valid identification must be presented at the main gate. We sincerely apologize for the confusion. SPONSORS The Vintage Computer Festival gratefully thanks its sponsors, the Computer History Museum and the Alameda County Computer Resource Center. Computer History Museum http://www.computerhistory.org Alameda County Computer Resource Center http://www.accrc.org VCF 5.0 Special Events ---------------------- We are adding new features to the VCF this year to increase attendee participation. Along with the Nerd Trivia Challenge, the popular quiz game that tests your computer history knowledge, the VCF will feature the Retro-Code vintage computer coding challenge in which attendees will write games on old home computers within a limited time period at the VCF. Information on the Nerd Trivia Challenge can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2002/main/ntc.php Information about the Retro-Code challenge is here: http://www.vintage.org/2002/main/retrocode.php COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM TOURS Tours of the Computer History Museum will be running throughout the exhibition hours of the VCF. Those that have not yet had the opportunity to visit the Computer History Museum's Visible Storage exhibits will certainly want to take advantage of this. For more information about the Computer History Museum, please visit their website at: http://www.computerhistory.org/ DIGIBARN EXCURSION The DigiBarn is a computer museum in a country setting (literally housed in a barn in the Santa Cruz Mountains). Bruce Damer, the curator of the DigiBarn, will be heading the excursion. A caravan will leave the VCF at approximately 2:30pm on Sunday and return before the close of VCF 5.0. More information about the DigiBarn can be found on their website: http://www.digibarn.com/ APL BAY AREA USERS' GROUP MEETING The VCF is hosting a meeting of the APL Bay Area Users' Group (The Northern California SIGAPL of the ACM) at VCF 5.0 in conjunction with the lecture that will be given by Zbigniew Stachniak. Zbigniew will be discussing an early portable personal computer, the MCM/70, which ran APL. The meeting will take place at 3:00pm on Saturday, October 26, in the speaker hall. For more information on the APL BAUG, visit their website: http://www.acm.org/sigapl Stay tuned for more VCF event updates! VCF Open House Update --------------------- The first VCF Open House is still in the works. We had promised to have the VCF Archives ready for display by now but progress has been slower than hoped. Still, progress is being made. Most of the material needed to build out the floor has been acquired. Construction on the floor will begin in October. Once it's complete, artifacts will be selected and exhibits will be assembled throughout the Fall, with an anticipated museum opening sometime in late November or early December. Again, the VCF would like to thank the Alameda County Computer Resource Center for generously providing space for the VCF to store our archives. The Alameda County Computer Resource Center is the largest non-profit computer recycling operation on the west coast of the United States. You may visit them on the web at: http://www.accrc.org/ Better yet, visit them in person and volunteer your time to help put computers into the hands of deserving kids, schools and organizations world-wide. Volunteering details can be found the ACCRC website. Latest Additions to the VCF Archives ------------------------------------ The VCF has continued to acquire new (or rather "old") artifacts since our last update. One of the most exciting is our acquisition of a Digital Computer Controls D-116 minicomputer. The DCC D-116 is roughly a clone of the Data General Nova 830. We have also acquired a Linus WriteTop. The Linus WriteTop was the first pen-based computer, manufactured in 1986. The computer did not meet with much success, mainly because the hand-writing recognition was not perfect (but then, it still isn't 16 years later ;) That wraps it up for this issue of the VCF Gazette! Until next time... Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ The Vintage Computer Festival is a celebration of computers and their history. The VCF Gazette goes out to anyone who subscribed to the VCF mailing list, and is intended to keep those interested in the VCF informed of the latest VCF events and happenings. The VCF Gazette is guaranteed to be published in a somewhat irregular manner, though we will try to maintain a quarterly schedule. If you would like to be removed from the VCF mailing list, and therefore not receive any more issues of the VCF Gazette, visit the following web page: http://www.vintage.org/remove.php ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From phil at ultimate.com Wed Oct 2 20:08:50 2002 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? Message-ID: <200210022241.g92Mflrp003959@ultimate.com> >From: "Andy Holt" > IBM704 (mid '50s) didn't The IBM709, which succeeded the 704 did; http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/grosch.html The 709 succeeded the 704, adding overlapped i/o, indirect addressing, and decimal instructions. The 7090 was a 709 with transistor, rather than vacuum-tube, logic. http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/reference/glossary_7.html The IBM 709 Data Processing System was introduced in January 1957. > PDP8 (?) did The first DEC computer, the PDP-1 (designed 1959) did as well. http://www.utc.edu/~jdumas/cs460/vonnarch.htm mentions the 709 and no others. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Oct 2 20:11:08 2002 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: VCF Gazette Volume 1 Issue 3 Message-ID: <01KN77N828F68WXPAT@cc.usu.edu> > Vintage Computer Festival 5.0 is scheduled for October 26th and 27th. > Doors open at 9:00AM each day, with talks beginning at 10:00AM and > running until 2:00PM. The Exhibit and Marketplace is open from 2:00PM > until 6:00PM each day. Argh! It's up against the Edwards AFB air show. Moral dilemma... -- Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Oct 2 20:12:42 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <005701c26a0f$2b83b220$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jay West wrote: > Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb Actually, it's 2G: ST - seagate 1 - 3.5" 2400 - 2.4GB N - Narrow scsi A decent drive (well, better than the 5.25" narrow-scsi types) for replacing older smaller/failed SCSI drives. -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 2 20:18:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey Sharp" at Oct 02, 2002 07:47:32 PM Message-ID: <200210030119.g931Jni17129@shell1.aracnet.com> > Would anyone object to adding an official 'cool factor clause' to the > 10-year rule? We already sorta have that now, where a newer computer (e.g. > mid-90s SGI MIPS) has sufficient cool factor that we're ok with it. All we > need is a concept of negative cool factor, so that some computers (e.g. > Packard Bell PC) might never be on-topic. > > In reality, this isn't any more ambiguous than what we already have. The > other option would be to develop some sort of unit for classicity and set a > threshold above which a machine is on-topic. > > Jeffrey Sharp I for one obviously don't have a problem with having an official 'cool factor clause'. After all, then my DEC PWS 433au running OpenVMS would be ontopic, as would systems such as BeBox's and the like. I think as a whole, systems that aren't x86 based, or Mac's that are less than 10 years old have been considered to have suffecient 'coolness factor'. Besides, about all that seems to cover is UNIX workstations, and OpenVMS systems. Also, I think 'custom built' x86 systems that have been specifically built to emulate older hardware, such as a PDP-10 are almost ontopic. Zane From jss at subatomix.com Wed Oct 2 20:38:01 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Digital T2011 Board In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002211653.02953fd8@pop.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002211653.02953fd8@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <978902601.20021002203616@subatomix.com> On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Stefan wrote: > I forgot Some file I have says: : T2011 - 6310 - 6300 CPU / KA62B CPU XMI cpu module -- Jeffrey Sharp From archer at topnow.com Wed Oct 2 20:42:01 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <3D9BA0C8.C1D39689@topnow.com> Geoff Roberts wrote: [snip] > Uh, what's a Blue Screen of Death? Bill who?" That's an uplifting thought. :) > > Food for thought? > > cheers > > Geoff in Oz > > > > > Zane > > > > From archer at topnow.com Wed Oct 2 20:52:00 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9BA313.37840EBD@topnow.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I guess NT is just about 10 years old now, isn't it? Sick. > > MICROS~1 was demo'ing NT in 1991, right before announcing Windoze 3.10. > The "dryrot logo" (which MICROS~1 calls the "flying windows logo" (in > spite of pieces falling off of the left side) was introduced at the > Microsoft Professional Developers Conference in August 1991 (along with > Windoze 3.10). MICROS~1 didn't care that NONE of the developers, from > whom they expected enthusiastic response, liked it. > > Might I formally propose that when we get to 2005, we revise the charter > of this list to be 11 years? > and in 2006, 12 years > in 2007, 13 years . . . > > acceptable age = current year - 1994 > > 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun anymore. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com To be honest, I don't think such a measure is necessary. Among geeks, MickySoft OS'es are decidedly un-sexy, and commodity PCs are (except for the truly oddball ones) boring to a life-threatening degree. :) A thread about THE generic OS on THE generic platform would probably be good for two or three responses, and then would die the ignominious death that it so deserved. :) "The economy isn't at 'The Grapes of Wrath' stage yet. It's only up to 'The Raisins of Regret", or perhaps the "Prunes of Peevishness". :) -- Ross From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 2 20:54:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > The only problem is then you block stuff that falls under the > > > non-Windows/"Really Cool Tech" catagories. I'd say retain the 10 > > > year rule and just state that an exception to that rule is that > > > Microsoft OS's newer than Windows 3.11 & x86 PC's with PCI slots are > > > off-topic. > > > > Ah, but then you exclude all the weird x86 386/486 hybrid boards with > > PCI busses ;) > > And that's a bad thing? Well, maybe for the folks who find it both fun and a challenge to make em do stuff they were never designed to do... -Toth From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Oct 2 20:55:34 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Digital T2011 Board References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021002211653.02953fd8@pop.softhome.net> <978902601.20021002203616@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <007d01c26a7f$d0ecb5c0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Sharp" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Digital T2011 Board > On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Stefan wrote: > > I forgot > > Some file I have says: > : T2011 - 6310 - 6300 CPU / KA62B CPU XMI cpu module Yes, 300 Series cpu for a VAX 6000 4.7VUP. (1 VUP~=1 MIPS) Geoff in Oz From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 2 20:58:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jay West wrote: > > > Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb > > Actually, it's 2G: > > ST - seagate > 1 - 3.5" > 2400 - 2.4GB > N - Narrow scsi 3.5" FH too, not one of the later 3.5" HH drives. -Toth From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Oct 2 21:13:01 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jay West wrote: > > > > > Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb > > > > Actually, it's 2G: > > > > ST - seagate > > 1 - 3.5" > > 2400 - 2.4GB > > N - Narrow scsi > > 3.5" FH too, not one of the later 3.5" HH drives. If you mean 1.6", then yes -- I've got a couple of these drives. I've always heard 1.6" called half height and 1" called "1/3 height". What's the proper terminology? -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Oct 2 21:24:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? References: Message-ID: <3D9BAAB5.D4124B33@compsys.to> >Will Jennings wrote: > Well I'm not sure as to indexing, but I know that the entire memory on the > LGP-30 is the drum.. nothing else, well at least not programmable anyway.. > and no, I/O devices aren't memory! heh Jerome Fine replies: When I first saw this line, I did not thing of a drum system as having indirect addressing. However, if this qualifies, then the IBM 650 system that must have been produced prior to 1960 (I used one in 1960) also had a drum to hold both instructions and data. Each IBM 650 instruction was 10 decimal digits - the IBM 650 was NOT a binary computer. The first 2 decimal digits were the op code. the next 4 decimal digits were the address of the operand. The last 4 decimal digits were the ADDRESS of the next instruction on the drum. The assembler program to convert the source language into machine language was called SOAP - Symbolic Optimal Assembly Program. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Oct 2 21:29:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available References: Message-ID: <3D9BABDE.D4E4EA7D@compsys.to> >Patrick Finnegan wrote: > If you mean 1.6", then yes -- I've got a couple of these drives. I've > always heard 1.6" called half height and 1" called "1/3 height". What's > the proper terminology? Jerome Fine replies: VERY THIN! -); If you have any 5 1/4" FH ESDI drives, that must be about 20 lb. each (well maybe only 10 lb.), then anything less, especially when 2 of any drive can be held in one have is THIN and LIGHT. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Oct 2 21:46:00 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <3D9BABDE.D4E4EA7D@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > If you mean 1.6", then yes -- I've got a couple of these drives. I've > > always heard 1.6" called half height and 1" called "1/3 height". What's > > the proper terminology? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > VERY THIN! -); If you have any 5 1/4" FH ESDI drives, > that must be about 20 lb. each (well maybe only 10 lb.), then > anything less, especially when 2 of any drive can be held in > one have is THIN and LIGHT. Well, I have a pair of those in my VaxStation 3200... 5.25" FH drives are thin and light when compared with something like an RP07, of course.... -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From glenslick at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 21:48:15 2002 From: glenslick at hotmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Mag Drums? Message-ID: Anyone know what this is? Litton Systems? http://home1.gte.net/~gslick/drum.jpg _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 2 21:50:01 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <200210030119.g931Jni17129@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > I for one obviously don't have a problem with having an official 'cool > factor clause'. After all, then my DEC PWS 433au running OpenVMS would be > ontopic, as would systems such as BeBox's and the like. I do not see the point of anything official, as most of the posts are to the lawless CCTALK list anyway. I would actually like to see the "official" cutoff pushed out to 20 years, as 10 years just does not seem that long ago... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Oct 2 22:00:00 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9BA313.37840EBD@topnow.com> Message-ID: <000701c26a89$1e789d00$6e7ba8c0@piii933> > Among geeks, MickySoft OS'es > are decidedly un-sexy, and commodity PCs are > (except for the truly oddball ones) boring to > a life-threatening degree. :) I dunno. I just booted up my 64K IBM PC with DOS 1.0 and I thought it was pretty cool. Erik S. Klein www.vintage-computer.com From univac2 at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 22:05:00 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <200210030119.g931Jni17129@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: on 10/2/02 8:19 PM, Zane H. Healy at healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > I think as a whole, systems that aren't x86 based, or Mac's that are less > than 10 years old have been considered to have suffecient 'coolness factor'. Well, think about it this way. Five years ago, wasn't NeXT hardware considered classic or collectable or at least cool? Because five years ago, it didn't meet the 10 year rule. Am I right on that one? Didn't the '030 NeXT Cube come out in 1988? -- Owen Robertson From jrice54 at charter.net Wed Oct 2 22:15:05 2002 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9BB72A.7010002@charter.net> The same with SGI Indy's. They have been discussed under the "not 10 years old but sufficently "geek cool" enough rule." I think the same would be true of other limited production machines, like Canon object.stations, Daystar Genesis MP's. James >Well, think about it this way. Five years ago, wasn't NeXT hardware >considered classic or collectable or at least cool? Because five years ago, >it didn't meet the 10 year rule. Am I right on that one? Didn't the '030 >NeXT Cube come out in 1988? > > > http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From archer at topnow.com Wed Oct 2 22:20:00 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <000701c26a89$1e789d00$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Message-ID: <3D9BB7BA.9EFA2E3F@topnow.com> "Erik S. Klein" wrote: > > > Among geeks, MickySoft OS'es > > are decidedly un-sexy, and commodity PCs are > > (except for the truly oddball ones) boring to > > a life-threatening degree. :) > > I dunno. I just booted up my 64K IBM PC with DOS 1.0 and I thought it > was pretty cool. Yeah, but DOS doesn't crash! :) -- Ross > > Erik S. Klein > www.vintage-computer.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 2 22:31:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Might I formally propose that when we get to 2005, we revise the charter > of this list to be 11 years? > and in 2006, 12 years > in 2007, 13 years . . . > > acceptable age = current year - 1994 > > > 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun anymore. Fred's got a good point. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Oct 2 22:36:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available References: Message-ID: <3D9BBB68.C7E5AB1B@compsys.to> >Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Jerome Fine replies: > > VERY THIN! -); If you have any 5 1/4" FH ESDI drives, > > that must be about 20 lb. each (well maybe only 10 lb.), then > > anything less, especially when 2 of any drive can be held in > > one hand is THIN and LIGHT. > Well, I have a pair of those in my VaxStation 3200... 5.25" FH drives are > thin and light when compared with something like an RP07, of course.... Jerome Fine replies: And I have 3 FH 5 1/4" ESDI Hitachi DK515-78 600 MByte drives on the PDP-11/83 that I use. But that is where I draw the line as far as "production" hardware is concerned. I don't regard a 60 lb. RL02 drive as reasonable because of BOTH the size and the weight - aside from the fact that the capacity is only 10 MBytes. On the other hand, I hope to eventually switch from using those ESDI drives to a SCSI drive - an ST32550N drive with a host adapter on both the PDP-11 and the PC so I can move the same SCSI drive between the two systems and run RT-11 from the same drive either directly on the real PDP-11 hardware or on the PC under Ersatz-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 2 22:43:00 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9BBCDF.6050305@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > I do not see the point of anything official, as most of the posts are to the > lawless CCTALK list anyway. > > I would actually like to see the "official" cutoff pushed out to 20 > years, as 10 years just does not seem that long ago... The whole point of the 10 year limit was to to prevent the "Latest Golly-Gee Wizzbang computer from Netsoft-3456 cpu" from taking up readers bandwith with topics like "Why autostart programs don't work, if the powerbar is in the OFF position." A classic computer is a CLASSIC computer regardless of age as all computers were new sometime. While I like "front panel" beasts I like to know what is out there rather than the classic PC clone of today that may be worth keeping in the future. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 2 22:56:00 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9BBCDF.6050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > The whole point of the 10 year limit was to to prevent the > "Latest Golly-Gee Wizzbang computer from Netsoft-3456 cpu" > from taking up readers bandwith with topics like "Why autostart > programs don't work, if the powerbar is in the OFF position." > A classic computer is a CLASSIC computer regardless of age > as all computers were new sometime. While I like "front panel" > beasts I like to know what is out there rather than the classic > PC clone of today that may be worth keeping in the future. It was a reference to the whole "gettin' old" phase one goes thru from time to time. Sometimes 1992 seems like yesterday. To add to my thoughts, it certainly does not seem like the list has been around for so long. It feels like I jumped on just a little bit ago. What has it been? Three years? Four years? Five? Maybe I ought to go chill out with a beverage. I am getting old. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 2 23:05:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 02, 2002 11:57:35 PM Message-ID: <200210030406.g9346Je23064@shell1.aracnet.com> > To add to my thoughts, it certainly does not seem like the list has been > around for so long. It feels like I jumped on just a little bit ago. What > has it been? Three years? Four years? Five? Maybe I ought to go chill out > with a beverage. I am getting old. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org I hate to tell you, but I think you're right, you're getting old, but then so are the rest of us :^/ Pondering the age of the list is definitly scarry though. Come to think of it, I suspect I've been on here since mid '97. At least I no longer haul stuff home by the truckload (normally). Zane From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 2 23:52:00 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jay West wrote: > > > Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb > > Actually, it's 2G: > > ST - seagate > 1 - 3.5" > 2400 - 2.4GB > N - Narrow scsi In reality, it is a 3.5" half-high, SCSI-2 FAST of 2400MB capacity. Half-high being about 1.6" tall. - don > A decent drive (well, better than the 5.25" narrow-scsi types) for > replacing older smaller/failed SCSI drives. > > -- > "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is > completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" > -- Anonymous > http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif > > > > From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Oct 3 00:29:01 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20021002194958.042a56f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> References: <1033515264.8470.3.camel@supermicro> Message-ID: <3D9B8F8C.15151.112373D@localhost> Actually there are Intel "white" Next's. Doubtfull they would be Pentium based tho. Lawrence > Hey, somebody squished a cube and painted it white! :-) > > On a slightly more serious note, does the description mean it's running > OpenStep? > > -- Tony > > At 07:34 PM 10/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >It's been a long day. This was good for a laugh: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1772937615 > > > >Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 00:39:01 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: <3D9B8F8C.15151.112373D@localhost> Message-ID: on 10/3/02 12:30 AM, Lawrence Walker at lgwalker@mts.net wrote: > Actually there are Intel "white" Next's. Doubtfull they would be Pentium > based tho. I have a NeXTstep 3.x CD that says it contains the black and white (NeXT and Intel) versions of the OS. So by 'Intel' does it mean PCs, or specialized Intel based hardware? I always thought it meant that it would run on 486 and higher PCs, but I haven't been able to get it to boot on any, which leads me to believe that it isn't for generic Intel hardware. Or maybe I need a boot floppy which I don't have. -- Owen Robertson From doug_jackson at citadel.com.au Thu Oct 3 00:55:01 2002 From: doug_jackson at citadel.com.au (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Digital Decserver 700-16 info requested Message-ID: Hi, I am the proud owner of 3 of these old (1991) terminal servers. DSRVW-YC. A01 Unfortunately, I have absoloutly no doco. I have been able to determine that the device is trying to TFTP a configuration file of some type. But I can not find any doco since Compaq desimated the Digital support sites. I believe that their logic was "is this PC related?" no - flush it. Does anybody on the list either (1) know anything or (2) know anybody who would know anything, about these boxes. I would *really* like to use one to put a couple of modems onto to use as a dial in service for my organisation. regards, Doug Jackson Director, Managed Security Services Citadel Securix +61 (0)2 6290 9011 (Ph) +61 (0)2 6262 6152 (Fax) +61 (0)414 986 878 (Mobile) Web: Offices in Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra, Hong Kong, Boston CAUTION - The information in this message may be of a privileged or confidential nature intended only for the use of the addressee or someone authorised to receive the addressee's e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@citadel.com.au. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Citadel Securix. Feel free to visit the Citadel Securix website! Click below. http://www.citadel.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021003/a5feb8d3/attachment.html From red at bears.org Thu Oct 3 01:23:01 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote: > I have a NeXTstep 3.x CD that says it contains the black and white (NeXT > and Intel) versions of the OS. So by 'Intel' does it mean PCs, or > specialized Intel based hardware? I always thought it meant that it > would run on 486 and higher PCs, but I haven't been able to get it to > boot on any, which leads me to believe that it isn't for generic Intel > hardware. Or maybe I need a boot floppy which I don't have. It works on some subset of "generic" intel hardware. Basically you need a VGA card, a supported disk controller, an Intel 80486 CPU, 16 MB RAM. The CD is not bootable on intel; the two boot floppies are required. Canon sold the Object.station 41, which is essentially a generic i486 system, integrated specifically to run NEXTSTEP. ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 01:25:01 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: 5150 & 720 KB FD In-Reply-To: <20021002130633.61561.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021002071325.99317.35888.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021002130633.61561.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43441.64.169.63.74.1033626367.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > As for the purist out there who shudder at the thought > of adding later components to such a classic, I should > mention that I'm an astronomer. I don't have the > systems as collectibles, I use them. Yup, that's > right... when you're on a budget, you have to make > everything work. This ol' PC is basically just going > to serve as a real time clock. And a real time clock need a 3.5-inch floppy drive because...? > With CGA monitors they are good for that... Better than an LED digital clock with four-inch tall red digits? From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Oct 3 01:27:00 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: "Bruce Lane"'s message of "Wed, 02 Oct 2002 06:30:01 -0700" References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <200210020630010536.A11A5529@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200210030622.g936MuM2085325@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Bruce Lane" wrote: > I had an 88170 at one time. They're pretty much the same as > the 7980. It will automatically sense the density of the tape > you load, and will lock itself to said density, and it should > certainly be able to handle all three of the standards (800, > 1600, 6250). It's less than certain. The supported densities are determined by the installed board set. There are many 88780s out there that only do 1600 and 6250. Fewer that do 800 too. I have yet to run across one that only does 1600 but it's a possible configuration; HP sold that (w/HP-IB interface) as the 7979A. For 7980s, 1600 and 6250 are standard and 800 is an option. 7980A is HP-IB, 7980S is SCSI (single-ended). There's also an "XC" option which does in-the-drive compression on 6250BPI tapes; I think this option does not coexist with the 800BPI option. BTW, a couple months ago Sun had a version of their service manual for the 88780 up at: http://sunsolve.sun.com/data/800/800-3447/pdf/doc.pdf It's missing the figures though. > Bear in mind that you'll need some fairly specialized (and > expensive -- in the $300 region) software if you want to use > that drive on any sort of PC. Last time I noticed, FreeBSD and Linux were able to make use of a SCSI interface with an attached 88780. -Frank McConnell From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 01:27:18 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: <200210020630010536.A11A5529@192.168.42.129> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <200210020630010536.A11A5529@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <43443.64.169.63.74.1033626529.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >>Does anyone have info on this beastie? I'm trying to convince it to be >> nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( Bruce Lane wrote: > I had an 88170 at one time. An 88780, probably. > Bear in mind that you'll need some fairly specialized (and expensive -- > in the $300 region) software if you want to use that drive on any sort > of PC. Someone should have warned me about that before I started using one with no special software whatsoever. :-) It responds to plain old SCSI tape commands, so any software that talks to SCSI tape drives should work. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Oct 3 01:55:01 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Digital T2011 Board Message-ID: >From: Geoff Roberts [mailto:geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au] >>From: "Jeffrey Sharp" >> On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Stefan wrote: >> > I forgot >> >> Some file I have says: >> : T2011 - 6310 - 6300 CPU / KA62B CPU XMI cpu module > >Yes, 300 Series cpu for a VAX 6000 4.7VUP. (1 VUP~=1 MIPS) My list has: T2011-00 KA62A-A VAX 6000-200 CPU T2011-YA KA62B-A VAX 6000-300 CPU T2011-YB KA62A-B VAXserver 6000-200 CPU T2011-YC KA62B-B VAXserver 6000-300 CPU I don't have any manuals to hand to go and check. I do know that the KA62B was essentially a souped up KA62A, so the -YA designator seems entirely plausible. Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Oct 3 01:58:00 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Digital Decserver 700-16 info requested Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Doug Jackson [mailto:doug_jackson@citadel.com.au] Sent: 03 October 2002 06:58 To: 'cctalk@classiccmp.org' Subject: Digital Decserver 700-16 info requested Hi, >I am the proud owner of 3 of these old (1991) terminal servers. DSRVW-YC. A01 > Unfortunately, I have absoloutly no doco. I have been able to determine that the device is trying to TFTP Go to the dnpg website and enter "decserver 700" as a search term or follow this link: http://www.dnpg.com/search/search.cgi?m=any&ps=10&o=0&q=decserver+700 Antonio From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Oct 3 02:47:01 2002 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steve Jones) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? Message-ID: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> Why do now what you can put off until the last minute... A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither one of us is sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes over the border. He's even willing to deliver, but not without any necessary paperwork. Can anybody fill me in on what would be required? Would working versus non-working make a difference? It's close to 15 years old if that matters... Thanks, --Steve. smj@spamfree.crash.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 3 03:03:01 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Don Maslin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jay West wrote: > > > > > Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb > > > > Actually, it's 2G: > > > > ST - seagate > > 1 - 3.5" > > 2400 - 2.4GB > > N - Narrow scsi > > In reality, it is a 3.5" half-high, SCSI-2 FAST of 2400MB capacity. > Half-high being about 1.6" tall. I've seen lots of companies call these drives full height, while floppy drives and such were considered half height. Maybe different folks refer to the height differently. The actual height of these drives should be right about 1.63". -Toth From hansp at aconit.org Thu Oct 3 03:09:00 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Mag Drums? References: Message-ID: <3D9BFB46.9040207@aconit.org> Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone know what this is? Litton Systems? > > http://home1.gte.net/~gslick/drum.jpg I would assume it is a mag drum unit ;-) Made, perhaps, by Litton? Drums, were the ancestors of disks, same basic principle of operation: read write head near moving surface of magnetic material. Drums were developed before disks, I suppose they were easier to construct. They typically have faster access times than disks (they were usually constructed with one head per track though moving head disks did exist). The superior storage density of disks cause dthem to displace drums in the 60's and 70's. Drums continued to be used for a time as backing store or fro VM systems. Interestingly (for some) there were machines built in the 50's whose main memory consisted of drums. On some of those those machines, each instruction would include the address of the next instruction to be executed so that program execution could be optimised. -- hbp From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 03:38:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469C4@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> > > ROCKWELL's 6502 (100% 6800 code compatible) > > He probably runs windows XP on it as well, using it as a > firewall/intranet server for the house. > > "It is best to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to > open it and remove all doubt." Besides, wasn't the Rockwell chip the improved version of the original (MOS) 6502, called the 65C02? It had some nifty extra instructions and an extra addressing mode.. --fred From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 04:10:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469C5@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Thanks to all who responded, both on-list and off-list. Summary: While READING, the 7980S will always default to whatever it finds on the tape currently loaded. If no format can be found (? bulk- erased tape?) it will use the setting below. While WRITING, it will use the desity as set with the CONF 46 setting. So, to fix my problem I had to set CONF46 to 1600, rather than 6250, and it worked. :) Cheers, Fred From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 04:18:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Looking for CP/M-86 for Compudata Tulip System I Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC39@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Freek, Een hele oude vriend van me, die ik al zeker 15 jaar niet heb gezien, had er een. Die mensen verzamelden ook vanalles, en ze waren heel zuinig op de spullen. Ze zouden die machine plus aanverwanten nog best eens kunnen hebben. Via telefoonboek of 0800-8008 zou je hun telnr kunnen achterhalen; ik weet het niet meer: Roeland & Maarten Tuk Schoonoord [ik meen] 92 Voorhout, ZH Groets, Fred From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 04:25:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: Looking for CP/M-86 for Compudata Tulip System I Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC3C@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> *sigh* Sorry people, wasn't awake when doing that. I redirected it offlist. *blush* --f From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 04:32:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC3E@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> > Jerome Fine replied: > > But that is where I draw the line as far as "production" hardware > is concerned. I don't regard a 60 lb. RL02 drive as reasonable > because of BOTH the size and the weight - aside from the fact > that the capacity is only 10 MBytes. Yeah, but they are way cool, too, like the RK05's.... I truly wish I had the physical space to put up some racks with an 11/40, 11/34a and an 11/70 side-by-side -with- all the stuff that used to go with them... *sigh* --fred From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 04:42:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:43 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC3F@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> > > Bear in mind that you'll need some fairly specialized (and > expensive -- > > in the $300 region) software if you want to use that drive > on any sort > > of PC. > > Someone should have warned me about that before I started > using one with no special software whatsoever. :-) > > It responds to plain old SCSI tape commands, so any software > that talks to SCSI tape drives should work. Yeah :) I wrote my own ASPI layer for both DOS and Win32, and developed a bunch of tools around them to handle the reading, writing and archiving of tapes of various sorts. Kinda nice, because I can read in magtapes, store them in a single formatted file, enter the info on the tape label, and then let it sit on my server, or email it around. Later, one can re-write a tape using that file. The drawback is: many tapes [worldwide] have decided to gather up and move themselves to Holland, to find their eternal piece in archived format. In other words... gawd, I still have a PILE of tapes to go.... Anyway. The toolkit runs under most UNIXes, too, so no problems there. The 7980S is actually connected to a MicroVAX 3100 running Ultrix, and that box is my fast-tape-reader. Nice! It responds fine, no extra stuff needed. Cheers, Fred From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Oct 3 05:06:01 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: OSI disk basic disk Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146EAB@BUSH02> Does anyone have an image of the OSI Disk BASIC disk? If not that disk any 'bootable' disk for any of the 6502 OSI Challenger, or compatible, machines. I've managed to replicate the OSI 610 disk interface and get it to read/write onto a DD 3.5" drive. Now I would like to try it out with some 'real' software. Ta much. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From hansp at aconit.org Thu Oct 3 06:06:00 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Info request : Tek 4052 Message-ID: <3D9C24DE.1030201@aconit.org> We are exhibiting a Tektronix 4052 computer and I am looking for some info on the beastie: Year of introduction Price at introduction Memory size Processor Clock frequency Tape capacity Tape speed Screen resolution The web seems somewhat reluctant to divulge this info and I'd appreciate your help. Regards, -- Hans B Pufal From jrice54 at charter.net Thu Oct 3 06:34:24 2002 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? References: Message-ID: <3D9C2C45.6040502@charter.net> I'm running it on a Pentium 233 at work. You need the intel boot floppy, the first driver disk, the second driver disk and the additional driver disk all of which can be downloaded at Apple, a supported video and network card and a supported SCSI card even if you are installing on an IDE hard drive. NS3.3 won't install using a ATAPI CD-ROM, it must be installed using a SCSI drive. There is a beta IDE driver that is supposed to support installs with IDE CD-ROM,s but I've never got it to work. Also NS3.3 won't recognize partitions over 2.2gb without risk of filesystem corruption. NeXTstep 3.3 works with Matrox Millenium PCI video cards, NE2000 10BT NIC's and Adaptec SCSI cards (some models). I put my intel box together out of cast off junk that was cluttering up the workbench area. NeXT never produced any hardware that wasn't Motorola based, however the Canon line of object.stations were intel based. The 31 and 41 were 486DX4-100's and the 51 and 61 were Pentiums. James Owen Robertson wrote: >on 10/3/02 12:30 AM, Lawrence Walker at lgwalker@mts.net wrote: > > > >>Actually there are Intel "white" Next's. Doubtfull they would be Pentium >>based tho. >> >> > >I have a NeXTstep 3.x CD that says it contains the black and white (NeXT and >Intel) versions of the OS. So by 'Intel' does it mean PCs, or specialized >Intel based hardware? I always thought it meant that it would run on 486 and >higher PCs, but I haven't been able to get it to boot on any, which leads me >to believe that it isn't for generic Intel hardware. Or maybe I need a boot >floppy which I don't have. > > > http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 3 07:26:00 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9C375A.9000604@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > It was a reference to the whole "gettin' old" phase one > goes thru from time to time. Sometimes 1992 seems like yesterday. For me 1982 seems like yesterday ( I got to use a real computer with punch cards and even a printer ). > To add to my thoughts, it certainly does not seem like the list has been > around for so long. It feels like I jumped on just a little bit ago. What > has it been? Three years? Four years? Five? Maybe I ought to go chill out > with a beverage. I am getting old. Maybie a better rule would be -- no computers advertised on e-bay unless known to classic. From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 3 08:59:01 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <3D9BABDE.D4E4EA7D@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 10/02/02, Jerome H. Fine scribbled: > >Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > If you mean 1.6", then yes -- I've got a couple of these drives. I've > > always heard 1.6" called half height and 1" called "1/3 height". What's > > the proper terminology? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > VERY THIN! -); If you have any 5 1/4" FH ESDI drives, > that must be about 20 lb. each (well maybe only 10 lb.), then > anything less, especially when 2 of any drive can be held in > one have is THIN and LIGHT. > -- How about my Seagate 9 GB SCSI drive, that are the size of 2 CD-ROMs glue together? :) Got 3 of them. I also have a 2GB and a 600MB SCSI drive of the same size... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Oct 3 09:26:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC3E@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3D9C53A2.748AAD32@compsys.to> >"Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > > Jerome Fine replied: > > But that is where I draw the line as far as "production" hardware > > is concerned. I don't regard a 60 lb. RL02 drive as reasonable > > because of BOTH the size and the weight - aside from the fact > > that the capacity is only 10 MBytes. > Yeah, but they are way cool, too, like the RK05's.... I truly wish > I had the physical space to put up some racks with an 11/40, 11/34a > and an 11/70 side-by-side -with- all the stuff that used to go with > them... *sigh* Jerome Fine replies: I probably have the room, but not the inclination. I am really a software person - the hardware is just there to run the software - well mostly - my wife certainly would not agree when she she looks at the basement full of PDP-11 junk. As for using the RL02 and RK05 drives, while I have one RK05 drive at the moment and a borrowed RKV11-D (THANK YOU Ethan Dicks - which I am close to being finished with) to recover some RK05 packs I obtained last year in Montreal, I would NEVER consider using the RL02 drives, let alone the RK05 drive, as a production unit to fix software bugs, etc. So if I really want to run some code which can only be run using an RK05 device driver under RT-11, I would use Ersatz-11 and run the code on a PC under Windows 98 SE/Ersatz-11. About the only problem is that it will run TOO FAST - about 15 times the speed of a PDP-11/93 right now and eventually I hope to get to 50 times the speed of a PDP-11/93 when a high end Pentium 4 is cheap enough. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Oct 3 09:34:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available References: Message-ID: <3D9C556B.18AFDE8B@compsys.to> >"David A. Woyciesjes" wrote: > How about my Seagate 9 GB SCSI drive, that are the size of 2 > CD-ROMs glue together? :) Got 3 of them. I also have a 2GB and a 600MB > SCSI drive of the same size... > --- David A. Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 Jerome Fine replies: If I am not mistaken, all ST3xxxxN drives have the same physical dimensions. I have some ST32550N drives, so I know what you mean. I can easily hold 2 drives in one hand at a time from the top and up to a dozen drives if I am extremely careful from the bottom. By the way, do you know where I could find a spare ST39171N or similar drive? I see them on eBay every so often, but I have not bothered as yet. Tim Shoppa has bragged about his 9 GBytes SCSI drive that he uses under RT-11 with 256 partitions!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 09:44:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC4B@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> > I probably have the room, but not the inclination. I am > really a software person - the hardware is just there to > run the software - well mostly - my wife certainly would > not agree when she she looks at the basement full of > PDP-11 junk. Ahh, but that merely takes a quick #ifdef WIFE # undef WIFE # define WIFE GEEK_WIFE #endif to fix... :) > As for using the RL02 and RK05 drives, while I have > one RK05 drive at the moment and a borrowed RKV11-D > (THANK YOU Ethan Dicks - which I am close to being > finished with) to recover some RK05 packs I obtained > last year in Montreal, I would NEVER consider using the > RL02 drives, let alone the RK05 drive, as a production > unit to fix software bugs, etc. So if I really want to run > some code which can only be run using an RK05 device > driver under RT-11, I would use Ersatz-11 and run the > code on a PC under Windows 98 SE/Ersatz-11. About > the only problem is that it will run TOO FAST - about > 15 times the speed of a PDP-11/93 right now and > eventually I hope to get to 50 times the speed of a > PDP-11/93 when a high end Pentium 4 is cheap enough. I do all my Ultrix-11 development under E11 too, simple because (a) it's a hell of a lot faster, and (b) I can take Falcon (the "machine") with me, including its four RA82 drives and all the others. :) Still.. I do try make sure it still runs (acceptably) on Real Hardware as much as possible. Which usually means teaming with retrogeek-friends for Yet Another retro-session. (did I mention the WIFE issue already? They usually seem to have issues with these sessions, too.. duuno why ;-) So... OK. I probably would not run a bunch of RP's for fun anymore. However, I have friends ['lo, ed ;-] that do, soo... :) --fred From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 09:46:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC4C@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> I used to have about half a zillion of these and other "anywhere between 2 and 9G" SCSI drives, mostly taken from old Compaq servers I had to service. Most of them have been given away, but I do have some 4GB's left. I *might* have a bunch of 9GB barracuda's left, too, which run at 7200. And get hot. :) --f From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Oct 3 09:50:00 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> Message-ID: <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> Steve Jones wrote: > > Why do now what you can put off until the last minute... > > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither one of > us is sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > over the border. He's even willing to deliver, but not without any > necessary paperwork. > > Can anybody fill me in on what would be required? Would working > versus non-working make a difference? It's close to 15 years old > if that matters... > > Thanks, > --Steve. > > smj@spamfree.crash.com One needs to consult with a customs broker, and there are many in business on both sides of the border. One trick to help avoid duties is to disable working equipment and declare it junk. Something simple like snipping attached line cords, or pulling a fuse(s) out of the power supply. Since NAFTA I haven't any idea what some of the procedures are now. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 3 09:51:01 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <3D9C556B.18AFDE8B@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 10/03/02, Jerome H. Fine scribbled: > >"David A. Woyciesjes" wrote: > > > How about my Seagate 9 GB SCSI drive, that are the size of 2 > > CD-ROMs glue together? :) Got 3 of them. I also have a 2GB and a 600MB > > SCSI drive of the same size... > > Jerome Fine replies: > > If I am not mistaken, all ST3xxxxN drives have the same > physical dimensions. I have some ST32550N drives, so > I know what you mean. I can easily hold 2 drives in one > hand at a time from the top and up to a dozen drives if > I am extremely careful from the bottom. Actually, I was talking about my ST-910800N Elite 9 drives. They are 3.25"H x 5.75"W x 8"D and weigh 8 lbs each. Try to hold 2 of these from the top! :) But yeah, I do believe all ST3xxxxN drives are the common current size of about 1"H x 4"W x 6"D. > By the way, do you know where I could find a spare > ST39171N or similar drive? I see them on eBay every > so often, but I have not bothered as yet. > I would say either eBay, or maybe Pricewatch... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 3 09:59:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <200210030119.g931Jni17129@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I for one obviously don't have a problem with having an official 'cool > factor clause'. After all, then my DEC PWS 433au running OpenVMS would be > ontopic, as would systems such as BeBox's and the like. > > I think as a whole, systems that aren't x86 based, or Mac's that are less > than 10 years old have been considered to have suffecient 'coolness factor'. > Besides, about all that seems to cover is UNIX workstations, and OpenVMS > systems. > > Also, I think 'custom built' x86 systems that have been specifically built > to emulate older hardware, such as a PDP-10 are almost ontopic. I think as long as this doesn't become a Windows technical support forum then we're fine. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 3 10:02:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > To add to my thoughts, it certainly does not seem like the list has been > around for so long. It feels like I jumped on just a little bit ago. What > has it been? Three years? Four years? Five? Maybe I ought to go chill out > with a beverage. I am getting old. The list is about 5.5 years old now. (Amazing, isn't it?) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 3 10:11:00 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC3F@mwsrv04.microwalt.n l> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021003093105.0267cb38@pc> At 11:43 AM 10/3/2002 +0200, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >I wrote my own ASPI layer for both DOS and Win32, and developed >a bunch of tools around them to handle the reading, writing and >archiving of tapes of various sorts. Did you release these tools on the web somewhere? - John From jss at subatomix.com Thu Oct 3 10:23:01 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? In-Reply-To: <3D9BAAB5.D4124B33@compsys.to> References: <3D9BAAB5.D4124B33@compsys.to> Message-ID: <853821124.20021003102054@subatomix.com> On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > When I first saw this line, I did not thing of a drum system as having > indirect addressing. ... The last 4 decimal digits [of an instruction] > were the ADDRESS of the next instruction on the drum. That's not indirect addressing. What I mean by 'indirect addressing' is 'accessing data at run-time-computed addresses'. You're talking about accessing code at hardcoded addresses. I was thinking of the first machine that supported indirect addressing in its instruction set, but we should also count machines where you could kludge indirect addressing by modifying the machine code before executing it. -- Jeffrey Sharp From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 10:29:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: Well, as to not accepting x86-machines, then would that rule out NetFrames? Those things rock, running Netware SMP or Windows NT.. Fault-tolerant too... And though it isn't 10 yet, what about my Sequent? Would the fact it runs Pentium-66s disqualify it? I think I agree with Sellam, in that so long as it doesn't turn into a Windows support forum its OK... Would be good not to have basic PC questions either, unless they're for say 5150s or for the "sort-of-compatible" early clones.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 10:31:00 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Items for free Message-ID: Hello all, I have the following items available for free... You do need to pay for shipping, so send me your country or ZIP code with your requests, so I can get shipping quotes out. I accept PayPal, or money order for postage payments. This is *NOT* first-come, first-serve. In order to be fair to international and digest readers, I will pull names from my hat (or any other convenient place :-) ) to determine who gets what. PLEASE make all contact OFF-LIST.... No need to flood the list with replies... - HP Network Printer Interface for HP LaserJet IIIsi -- looks unused, comes w/ selaed manual, LANSpool Si test drive edition, original box - Dell Laser System Font Cartridge "R" - Qty. 2 SMC fiber-optic Arcnet cards, ISA bus, model PC-310, original box, w/ manual and registration card, sticker priced at $1295.00 each! - Qty. 2 proNET Model p2400 "Wire center" -- 4 ports on top, two on the sides, top ports labeled "node", side ports labeled "link". Each port has a switch for "in ring" and"out", and each port is a 15-pin D-shaped connector -- token ring??? - NEC ProSpeed Power-Block Battery Cartridge for the ProSpeed 286 laptop. Model no. PC-21-71. Probably dead, but looks in near-mint condition, and in original box/packaging. - Qty. 3 Connect brand Ethernet/PC 16-bit ISA Ethernet cards -- AUI/BNC connectors, original box, driver disk, docs (refer to BNC as "CheaperNet" connector, so you know it's old :-)) - Microchannel 3270 card -- no docs, but comes w/ "IBM Personal System 3270 Connection Diagnostics" diskette (Version 4.10) - Tiara LANCard/A, full-length 16-bit ISA Arcnet card, w/ original box, manual - Chorus Data Systems PC-EYE Video Capture card -- old, full-length 8-bit ISA card for video capture. w/ original box, docs, software. Manual seems to indicate it willwork with "standard" graphics cards, but install instructions only refer to Chorus cards - Excelan Etherport II ethernet card -- looks like a Macintosh NuBus, or PDS? (96-pin connector, 3 rows of 32) full-length card, no docs or drivers - Qty. 3 Madge Microchannel token ring cards, "SMART MC Ringnode", w/ original box, disks,docs. 2 boxes still sealed, one opened - Proteon ProNET 8-port Wire Center. similar to 4-port described above, but with 8 ports, not 4 :-) - Megahertz External Token Ring Adapter for Toshiba T1000SE/XE/LE, T1200XE, T2000SX, original box, manual, disks _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 10:44:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track [GAIN] Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC51@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Hey all ! *grumpf* still not working. Although I can change the DENSITY setting with CONF 46, it doesn't "hold" it. The moment I try to write a tape, it switches back to the original 6250 setting. Meaning (apparently) that the host is forcing it to 6250... So... how does one tell that thing that host (SCSI) commands can **NOT** override the default density stored with CONF46 ? I grabbed the Sun manual, but that didn't say much about it, just that it had a DENSITY switch which mine doesn't have, and the info on the COFN46 stuff... --fred From n4fs at monmouth.com Thu Oct 3 10:46:01 2002 From: n4fs at monmouth.com (Mike Feher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> Message-ID: <00de01c26af2$397e3ec0$d2775243@n4fs> Another thing that really helps is to declare that it was made in the USA. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell NJ, 07731 (732) 901-9193 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Hildebrand" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:48 AM Subject: Re: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? > Steve Jones wrote: > > > > Why do now what you can put off until the last minute... > > > > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither one of > > us is sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > > over the border. He's even willing to deliver, but not without any > > necessary paperwork. > > > > Can anybody fill me in on what would be required? Would working > > versus non-working make a difference? It's close to 15 years old > > if that matters... > > > > Thanks, > > --Steve. > > > > smj@spamfree.crash.com > > One needs to consult with a customs broker, and there are many in > business on both sides of the border. One trick to help avoid duties is > to disable working equipment and declare it junk. Something simple like > snipping attached line cords, or pulling a fuse(s) out of the power > supply. > > Since NAFTA I haven't any idea what some of the procedures are now. > > Gary Hildebrand > St. Joseph, MO > From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 10:48:01 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: OT: Anybody have these Apple items?? Message-ID: Hello all, You knew this list would closely follow the free list :-) I believe all of these are too new to be on-topic, so my apologies... It never hurts to ask, right? If anyone has any of these items, please contact me OFF-LIST... Thanks! 1) Apple Localtalk Locking Connector Kit, DE-9 (for a LocalTalk PC Card). I have two cards, so I'd like two kits... 2) I recently purchased a 12" PCI-slot Apple PC Compatibility card, for a PowerMac 8500, but it did not have the three-connector monitor cable (one connects to the PC card, one to the monitor, and one to the Mac video output). 3) Apple "Superdrive" 1.44MB 3.5" floppy -- needs to be the AUTO-INJECT style, where the manual eject pinhole is directly to the right of the drive slot, and NOT where the pinhole is directly below the slot. You can also identify this drive as one WITHOUT the flap over the drive slot. The bare drive is fine, as I intend to put it in my own enclosure. I'd like to get two if possible. I guess that's it for now.. :-) Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 11:22:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: TDU, TDF and "Doing magtape image archiving" [was: HP 7980S ...] Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC54@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> All, Oooh... hrrm. Didn't realize there was such a lot of interest in those (already). The toolkit is basically an API in the shape of a C library, which handles all the nitty gritty of the TDF (Tape Distribution Format, aka Tape Dump Format) file format stuff. The user interface for reading physical tapes to image, writing the images back to physical tapes, and doing all sorts of weird stuff with the image files, is handled by a single program called TDU, the T... Utility. Its synopsis is similar to that of 'tar': -------------------------------------------------------- TDU version 1.0.15 for OpenBSD on VAX. Usage: tdu [-f file] [-m maxchunk] [-p path] [-v] cmd [args] where 'cmd' is one of {c|e|i|p|r|t|w|x} -------------------------------------------------------- Also, several conversion tools exist to convert between TDF and TAP (used in Ersatz-11 and SimH simlators) and raw formats. The tookit is currently in its final First Release testing, at version 1.0.15. It has been tested with the following systems: - DOS 6.22 and Win32 DOS box (with ASPI layers for tape I/O) - Windows 9X, NT 4.0 and 2K, Win32 console app - DEC Ultrix-32 V4.5 both VAX and MIPS - OpenBSD/vax V3.1 - DEC Ultrix-11 (on PD-11/83, both real and emulated) - SunOS 4.1.4 on SPARCstation - Solaris (cant memebr which one) - SGI IRIX Porting to VMS is being done by Robert Alan Byer, of SimH/VMS fame. Thanks to Tim Shoppa for helping me out with one of those 'does this ever happen?' issues ... :) I have added TDF support to SimH, so you can just do a simh> mount mt0: /u/dist/rsx11mplus-4.2-tp1.tdf /wprotect /tdf in SinH and then boot the tape. The goal, of course, is to be able to easly get an archive of software up and running. Here's sample output of what an RSX-11M Plus V4.2 tape looks like: -------------------------------------------------------- (vaxlab)$ tdu tfv rsx11mplus-4.2-tp1.tdf TDF version : 1 CRC-32 : 0x32b466df Part # : BB-J083H-BC Serial Number : ME109856 Tape Label : RSX-11M-PLUS V4.2 MT:1600 Description : BRUSYS STANDALONE COPY SYSTEM Copyright : 1989 Owner : DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION File 0 : blocksize 512 (439 blocks) File 1 : blocksize 80 (2 blocks) File 2 : blocksize 80 (1 blocks) 2 : blocksize 512 (2 blocks) 2 : blocksize 80 (1 blocks) 2 : blocksize 512 (1 blocks) 2 : blocksize 80 (2 blocks) 2 : blocksize 2560 (1 blocks) 2 : blocksize 80 (1 blocks) 2 : blocksize 4144 (28 blocks) 2 : blocksize 560 (1 blocks) File 3 : blocksize 80 (2 blocks) File 4 : blocksize 80 (2 blocks) File 5 : blocksize 80 (1 blocks) 5 : blocksize 512 (2 blocks) ....... -------------------------------------------------------- All I need to do is testing magtapes written with TDU, and I need the HP to work for that. The code will be released for more testing after I merge in Robert Byer's VMS stuff when he's done. Cheers, Fred From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Oct 3 11:30:01 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <002501c26afa$38296380$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Geoff Roberts wrote: > I still give my kids 486Dx's with VESA video and 95 to play games on > and even do a bit of net surfing, > play music cd's etc on stuff that most people consider beyond > obsolete. Real Men (tm) use Linux :-) Although I have to admit, I do keep Win98 around for one simple reason. Starcraft. > with 100mbps wireless connections to the internet *drool* We'll need more IP addresses first. > Uh, what's a > Blue Screen of Death? Bill who?" I ask myself the same questions when I use Linux :-) Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From hansp at aconit.org Thu Oct 3 11:31:00 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? References: <3D9BAAB5.D4124B33@compsys.to> <853821124.20021003102054@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3D9C70F9.6050901@aconit.org> Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > I was thinking of the first machine that supported indirect addressing in > its instruction set, but we should also count machines where you could > kludge indirect addressing by modifying the machine code before executing > it. But surely ANY computer (other than Harvard architecture machines which seaprate code from data) can modify their own program. In that case I do not hesitatte to nominate the Manchester Baby machine, first operational program in June 1948. It did not have any hardwired indirect addressing but it could certainly modify its own program. -- hbp > From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 3 12:24:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay Message-ID: <200210031725.KAA16340@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred N. van Kempen" > >> > ROCKWELL's 6502 (100% 6800 code compatible) >> >> He probably runs windows XP on it as well, using it as a >> firewall/intranet server for the house. >> >> "It is best to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to >> open it and remove all doubt." > >Besides, wasn't the Rockwell chip the improved version of the original >(MOS) 6502, called the 65C02? It had some nifty extra instructions and >an extra addressing mode.. > >--fred > Hi Fred I have a Rockwell AIM65 and book. I'll have to see if there is anything extra. Having worked on both 6800 and 6502 code, I can assure you that there is no code compatability. The 6502 traded depth in instructions for more page 0 accesses. For most applications, this worked well. Those who worked with Apples will tell you that the OS over used page 0 and didn't leave enough for the users. As was mentioned, there was a 6501 that was pin compatable with the 6800. It was also not code compatable. Rockwell also made a number of embedded 6502 application processors. These are a pain because they are P-MOS and have non-ttl busses. I have these in my old Gottlieb pinball machine ( what we pinheads call spider chips ). Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 3 12:49:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <002501c26afa$38296380$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: >Real Men (tm) use Linux :-) No, real men use whichever OS is best suited to what they are trying to do. For me, at work, that means Linux, Solaris, and AIX. At home, it typically means Mac OS 9.1 or OpenVMS, but can also mean OpenBSD, WinXP, Linux, or others depending on what I'm trying to do. >Although I have to admit, I do keep Win98 around for one simple reason. >Starcraft. Uh, doesn't Starcraft run on Linux under Wine? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vaxzilla at jarai.org Thu Oct 3 12:57:01 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > I would actually like to see the "official" cutoff pushed out to 20 > years, as 10 years just does not seem that long ago... We could start a second list: ClassicerCmp. -brian. From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Thu Oct 3 13:02:00 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: References: <200210030119.g931Jni17129@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20021003140053.0078e134@pop1.epm.net.co> Sellam wrote: >I think as long as this doesn't become a Windows technical support forum >then we're fine. Actually, whenever such questions arise we could simply put our BOFH hat before answering :-) . carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 3 13:19:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <00de01c26af2$397e3ec0$d2775243@n4fs> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Mike Feher wrote: > Another thing that really helps is to declare that it was made in the USA. > Regards - Mike That can SOMETIMES add to the problems! A US company with a registered trademark can object to anything with their trademark being permitted in! But, on a casual level, it might help to tell the customs guy that it is merely being "returned" to the US. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Oct 3 13:22:00 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: First Indirect Addressing? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Oct 2002 18:31:53 +0200." <3D9C70F9.6050901@aconit.org> Message-ID: <200210031750.SAA03746@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Hans B Pufal said: > Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > > I was thinking of the first machine that supported indirect addressing in > > its instruction set, but we should also count machines where you could > > kludge indirect addressing by modifying the machine code before executing > > it. > > But surely ANY computer (other than Harvard architecture machines which > seaprate code from data) can modify their own program. In that case I do > not hesitatte to nominate the Manchester Baby machine, first operational > program in June 1948. It did not have any hardwired indirect addressing > but it could certainly modify its own program. Indeed, and that was the normal way of indexing arrays on EDSAC (1949). (I'm just writing some simple test programs for the emulator, so I know that's the only way to do it!). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 3 13:22:23 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9C8B8C.1060203@tiac.net> Lets face it, PC's have been around a while now, and they are not going away any time soon. But how 'classic' is any machine that was so highly mass-produced? The sheer numbers make them so common, their collectable 'value' will be nearly zero, unless they are unusual in some way. So highly customized PC's, or specialized machines (i.e. EISA bus) may hold more interest than your standard PCI based Pentiums, which are about as collectable as a 10 year old toaster. But there are some 'interesting' things out there in PC land, strange things that never made it into mass production, like Intel P54CBT's, or extinct operating systems like PenPoint. Older machines, like minicomputers from back when all machines had a front panel, had very unique and recognisable styles. The gold plating of HP gear, the near military qualitiy (and tank-like nature) of Unibus machines, or the no-nonsense practicality of a Nova, each made a clear statement about the design philosophy of their makers. PC's simply lack this, being a commodity product (exactly like a toaster). So yes, Windows 95 will become a 'classic' O/S. So what, that will not make it any more interesting. This of it this way, the era of recognisable computer design philosophy ended, some time ago. This only makes the value of really ANTIQUE computers much higher than mearly 'vintage' computers. To my eye, an interesting machine its not really a matter of being more than 10 years old, its a matter of having been made with a unique design style. It just so happens that once upon a time, all computers were made this way. Will Jennings wrote: > Well, as to not accepting x86-machines, then would that rule out > NetFrames? Those things rock, running Netware SMP or Windows NT.. > Fault-tolerant too... And though it isn't 10 yet, what about my > Sequent? Would the fact it runs Pentium-66s disqualify it? I think I > agree with Sellam, in that so long as it doesn't turn into a Windows > support forum its OK... Would be good not to have basic PC questions > either, unless they're for say 5150s or for the "sort-of-compatible" > early clones.. > > Will J > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > From vaxzilla at jarai.org Thu Oct 3 13:53:00 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: What's wrong with this picture? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote: > on 10/3/02 12:30 AM, Lawrence Walker at lgwalker@mts.net wrote: > > Actually there are Intel "white" Next's. Doubtfull they would be Pentium > > based tho. > > I have a NeXTstep 3.x CD that says it contains the black and white (NeXT and > Intel) versions of the OS. So by 'Intel' does it mean PCs, or specialized > Intel based hardware? I always thought it meant that it would run on 486 and > higher PCs, but I haven't been able to get it to boot on any, which leads me > to believe that it isn't for generic Intel hardware. Or maybe I need a boot > floppy which I don't have. It runs just fine on Pentium systems, at least with the subset of video and network cards it supports. Up until the end of 2000, DreamWork's Animation used a variety of Dell Pentium systems, maybe even some PIIs, for their pencil test stations. In 2001, we moved to Linux/Intel based system. If you need a NEXTSTEP 3.3 boot floppy, I'll mail you an image which you can use dd or rawrite.exe to put onto a 1.44MB floppy. -brian. From passerm at umkc.edu Thu Oct 3 14:04:00 2002 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <003e01c26b0f$cc37b6c0$8e8fc186@kc.umkc.edu> Re: 10 yearsI find it interesting that I agree with this, but picturing the same text after a %s/PC/C64/g (and other appropriate adjustments) changes my attitude somewhat. --Mike From jss at subatomix.com Thu Oct 3 14:22:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <003e01c26b0f$cc37b6c0$8e8fc186@kc.umkc.edu> References: <003e01c26b0f$cc37b6c0$8e8fc186@kc.umkc.edu> Message-ID: <10818179360.20021003142012@subatomix.com> On Thursday, October 3, 2002, Michael Passer wrote: > I find it interesting that I agree with this, With what? There are numerious view in this thread. > but picturing the same text What text? There are numerous emails in this thread. > after a %s/PC/C64/g (and other appropriate adjustments) changes my > attitude somewhat. To what? There are numerous ways one's attitude can change. -- Jeffrey Sharp From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 14:22:19 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> Message-ID: <4969.4.20.168.172.1033673022.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither one of us is > sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > over the border. If the equipment was originally made in USA, it's no problem. Just tell US Customs that you're reptriating it. They may want some proof that it's made in USA. A label stating that is best, but even just the address of the manufacturer being in the USA may be sufficient. Failing that, you can just tell them that it's old scrap with no commercial value. That's true, isn't it? It might help to buy the equipment from him for a nominal price rather than get it as a gift. If you buy it (for $25, perhaps) and have a bill of sale, the import duty would be based on the sale price. But if it's a gift, Customs would try to determine the value and assess the import duty based on that. I'm not an expert, but I've brought computer equipment into the US from Canada twice without problems. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 14:34:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469C4@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469C4@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3673.4.20.168.172.1033673747.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Besides, wasn't the Rockwell chip the improved version of the original > (MOS) 6502, called the 65C02? It had some nifty extra instructions and > an extra addressing mode.. That came later. Rockwell was one of the original second-source manufacturers of the NMOS 6502, with no added instructions. Synertek was another. Contrary to popular belief, Mostek *NEVER* made any 6502s or related parts. Rockwell made a line of single-chip microcontrollers based on the NMOS 6502 core, starting with the "6500/1" (that's the full part number, it's not a 6500 or 6501). On some of these parts they added an extra set of bit manipulation instructions, using opcodes of the form xxxxxx11, all of which were undefined on the original 6501 and 6502. Some friends and I did a lot of work with the 6511Q, a ROMless part with a lot of nice on-board I/O features. When Rockwell licensed the CMOS 6502 from WDC, they added their bit manipuation instructions to it. Thus the Rockwell R65C02 has more instructions than the "standard" 65C02 from WDC, GTE, NCR, and others. Their later single-chip microcontrollers were based on the CMOS core. Rockewll put a preliminary blurb sheet for an R65C29 in one of their data books, but unfortunately never introduced the part. The 65C29 was described as containing two R65C02 processors. Internally, though, it was to be a "double-pumped" design. It would have had two complete sets of registers (A, X, Y, P, S, PC), but only one set of logic, and switched between the two contexts on alternate clocks. Conceptually similar to the "barrel processor" approach of the PPUs on the CDC 6600, except that the PPUs each had their own memory while the 65C29 would have shared the same memory for both contexts. This technique is used in several proprietary microcontrollers, and in at least one new commercial microprocessor due out in 2003. A related technique is used by Intel for their "Hyperthreading" in the Xeon. From passerm at umkc.edu Thu Oct 3 14:39:00 2002 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael W.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: The point is that elitists years ago would have said the same thing about the C-64, which is now generally considered a classic. From jrice54 at charter.net Thu Oct 3 14:46:13 2002 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <3D9C8B8C.1060203@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3D9CA0A6.5030006@charter.net> I feel that the BeBox fit's that category. An orphan OS, unusual design (dual PPC, not a Mac, PC conponent's, case color, and don't forget the blinkin lights). The last BeBoxs won't be 10 years old until 2008. The original Grid laptops with magnesium cases and oil field equipment rugged design are another. The first Grids not the Tandy Grids are already included in the 10 year rule I think. James Bob Shannon wrote: > Lets face it, PC's have been around a while now, and they are not going > away any time soon. > > But how 'classic' is any machine that was so highly mass-produced? The > sheer numbers make them so common, their > collectable 'value' will be nearly zero, unless they are unusual in some > way. > > So highly customized PC's, or specialized machines (i.e. EISA bus) may > hold more interest than your standard PCI based Pentiums, which are > about as collectable as a 10 year old toaster. > > But there are some 'interesting' things out there in PC land, strange > things that never made it into mass production, like Intel P54CBT's, or > extinct operating systems like PenPoint. > > http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 14:47:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: OSI disk basic disk In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146EAB@BUSH02> References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146EAB@BUSH02> Message-ID: <2689.4.20.168.172.1033674482.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Does anyone have an image of the OSI Disk BASIC disk? Did they actually have anything called "Disk BASIC"? When I used OSI systems, they had two operating systems, OS-65/D and OS-65/U (not sure of the punctuation in those). OS-65/D was what was normally found on smaller systems. It was a pathetic excuse for an operating system. If you wanted to view the directory, you had to run a BASIC program to do it. Sorted directory listing? You've got to be kidding. And if you had a program in memory that you didn't want to lose by loading the directory program, too bad. Need to create a file? Run another BASIC program. It prompts you for the filename, starting track, and ending track. It doesn't check whether your new file overlaps an existing file. I guess the good thing about it was that the BASIC programs were easily modified to add those features. When I was in junior high school and had less than a year of computer experience, I had no trouble adding a Shell sort to the directory program, and enhancing the file creation program to check for sufficient room and locate the file for you. I sent my improved versions to Ohio Scientific, but never heard from them. The main accomplishment of my friend Tod and I on the C4P at school was to write a game based on the arcade game "blockout". That taught me how to do keyboard scanning and direct access to the video memory. We were pretty good at the game, but we added a cheat feature so that we'd always beat the other students. If you pressed a particular key (different for the left and right player), it would enable cheat mode and automatically turn if you were about to crash. Nowdays Tod is a professor of Computer Science, and assigns writing this game (including cheat mode) as an exercise for his students. :-) Tod and I both migrated from using the C4P to the Apple ][. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 14:51:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC4B@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC4B@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <4793.4.20.168.172.1033674721.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Ahh, but that merely takes a quick > > #ifdef WIFE > # undef WIFE > # define WIFE GEEK_WIFE > #endif You forgot the step: #undef HALF Also, the third step of your algorithm seems to be quite difficult to achieve. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 14:54:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> Message-ID: <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > One needs to consult with a customs broker, and there are many in > business on both sides of the border. For old equipment, the broker's fee will exceed the import duties you could expect to pay. I've had people send me stuff from Canada, and later received outrageous bills from customs brokers, usually for around five times what I paid for the merchandise. As far as I'm concerned, I have no established business relationship with these customs brokers. I did not expect the sender to use such a broker, and was not told that it would be done. So I have never paid them. From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 3 14:58:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC57@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> > > Ahh, but that merely takes a quick > > > > #ifdef WIFE > > # undef WIFE > > # define WIFE GEEK_WIFE > > #endif > > You forgot the step: > > #undef HALF OOps. > Also, the third step of your algorithm seems to be quite > difficult to achieve. Nobody ever said programming was easy... :) Much worse is the lack of share-ware (also called try-before-you-buy) these days... --f From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 15:01:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: References: <00de01c26af2$397e3ec0$d2775243@n4fs> Message-ID: <4221.4.20.168.172.1033675329.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Mike Feher wrote: > Another thing that really helps is to declare that it was made in the > USA. Regards - Mike "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > That can SOMETIMES add to the problems! > A US company with a registered trademark can object to anything with > their trademark being permitted in! Surely they can't do anything to prevent a product they manufactured and that bears their trademark from being imported? Isn't that covered under the doctrine of first sale? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Oct 3 15:02:01 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <000a01c26b17$ddae4240$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Although I have to admit, I do keep Win98 around for one simple >> reason. Starcraft. > > Uh, doesn't Starcraft run on Linux under Wine? Yes, but it runs too slowly under WINE to be playable. Under 98 it runs fine. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From jim at jkearney.com Thu Oct 3 15:11:01 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469C4@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <3673.4.20.168.172.1033673747.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <02a101c26b19$22ceae40$1301090a@jkearney.com> > > (MOS) 6502, called the 65C02? It had some nifty extra instructions and > was another. Contrary to popular belief, Mostek *NEVER* made any 6502s I think a lot of people are just mistakenly taking 'Mostek' as a short form of 'MOS Technology'. > instructions than the "standard" 65C02 from WDC, GTE, NCR, and others. I have a GTE 65SC02 here that has yet another variation of the extended instructions Here's a snippet I found: <> I don't think "MOS Semiconductors" is right, though. From dave at naffnet.org.uk Thu Oct 3 15:12:00 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman - dave@naffnet.org.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <4969.4.20.168.172.1033673022.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3D9CA4D1.204859E2@naffnet.org.uk> Eric Smith wrote: > It might help to buy the equipment from him for a nominal price rather > than get it as a gift. If you buy it (for $25, perhaps) and have > a bill of sale, the import duty would be based on the sale price. But > if it's a gift, Customs would try to determine the value and assess the > import duty based on that. If it's a gift, and the value is less that $100 then the customs section of the US embassy pages here in the UK imply that there is no duty to pay - other than that the first $100 would not be subject to duty. Dave. From dancohoe at oxford.net Thu Oct 3 15:31:00 2002 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <4969.4.20.168.172.1033673022.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000d01c26b1b$be6a9420$6401a8c0@DCOHOE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:24 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? > > > > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither > one of us is > > sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > > over the border. ........Eric Smith said: > > If the equipment was originally made in USA, it's no problem. Just > tell US Customs that you're reptriating it. They may want some proof > that it's made in USA. A label stating that is best, but even just > the address of the manufacturer being in the USA may be sufficient. > > Failing that, you can just tell them that it's old scrap with no > commercial value. That's true, isn't it? > > It might help to buy the equipment from him for a nominal price rather > than get it as a gift. If you buy it (for $25, perhaps) and have > a bill of sale, the import duty would be based on the sale price. But > if it's a gift, Customs would try to determine the value and > assess the > import duty based on that. > > I'm not an expert, but I've brought computer equipment into > the US from > Canada twice without problems. > I usually am bringing stuff into Canada, but once I wanted to pass through from Eastern Ontario into New York, through Syracuse, then back into Canada at Buffalo. Problem was, I had about 20 HP 9000 series 300 machines with me coming from Canada. The US Customs agent heard my story, looked at the HP plate that said "Made in USA" and sent me on my way to Buffalo. My experience going the other way has always been that a good explanation of what you are doing, a reasonable valuation (more than $0 even if the stuff was a gift to you), and a look by the agent at a date sticker or an IC with an early eighties or beyond date will convince at least a supervisor that the goods have very little value and that the real reason you are doing this is because of some weakness in your mental powers. Dan Cohoe From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Oct 3 15:59:01 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <038201c26b1f$dc7af8c0$90f8b8ce@impac.com> Jim Willing's website seems to be down and I assume his email went with it. Did anyone happen to copy down his mailing address from the garage sale page before it stopped working? I want to send him payment for a couple of items he's holding for me. Thank you, Erik S. Klein www.vintage-computer.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 16:10:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20021003211115.7667.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > > One needs to consult with a customs broker, and there are many in > > business on both sides of the border. > > For old equipment, the broker's fee will exceed the import duties you > could expect to pay. I've had people send me stuff from Canada, and > later received outrageous bills from customs brokers, usually for around > five times what I paid for the merchandise. As far as I'm concerned, > I have no established business relationship with these customs brokers. > I did not expect the sender to use such a broker, and was not told that > it would be done. So I have never paid them. I had one of them contact me while the shipment was being held. This was > 10 years ago and was one of the first times I'd ever ordered a product by e-mail from Canada. It was also the first time that this guy (small company) sent any thing _from_ Canada. He just took it to UPS and off it went. They wanted $80 to process the paperwork. I told them there was no way I was paying them and that they needed to send the shipment back to the shipper. They were genuinely surprised. What I have learned since then is that when shipping via UPS, a one- page form, properly filled out, is all you need. No brokers. No funny business. There is the potential for duty, depending on the price and nature of the item, but that's a different issue. Mostly, my personal experiences have been shipping 10" 9-track tapes to Canadian COMBOARD customers (software, no duty; $4 tape, no duty) and GG2 Bus+ boards (via Post, so I expect that any duties are paid by the recipent - I certainly didn't pay any to export - that's unconstitutional). ISTR a UPS export declaration form was all I had to submit with my shipper's book for a pickup. Things may have changed with NAFTA (easier rather than harder, I would expect), but it shouldn't be a major production. Physically taking the goods with you across the border is a different story. Accompanied goods are subject to different regulations (like the $100 exemption previously mentioned). Proof of place of manufacture can be handy ("Made in USA" stickers *should* suffice). Proof of purchase is nearly as good. I've never had any problems with bringing anything across the border with me except the one time I was asked to pay import duty on some Canadian beer I brought home with me, because I didn't spend enough time in Canada to qualify for an exemption. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net Thu Oct 3 16:12:00 2002 From: cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:44 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" References: <038201c26b1f$dc7af8c0$90f8b8ce@impac.com> Message-ID: <003301c26b21$924abea0$3200a8c0@winnt> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik S. Klein" > Did anyone happen to copy down his mailing address from the garage sale > page before it stopped working? I want to send him payment for a couple > of items he's holding for me. > As much as I hate to say it - me too. If someone does have the address, can you post it to the list (or barring that, include me in the email)? From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Oct 3 16:14:01 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? Message-ID: It used to be for some cameras that you could not import one if it had the logo/name intact. Just covering it with tape or goo was not sufficient -- the name had to be ground off! This condition was imposed by the official US importer, IIRC. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith [mailto:eric@brouhaha.com] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:02 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? Mike Feher wrote: > Another thing that really helps is to declare that it was made in the > USA. Regards - Mike "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > That can SOMETIMES add to the problems! > A US company with a registered trademark can object to anything with > their trademark being permitted in! Surely they can't do anything to prevent a product they manufactured and that bears their trademark from being imported? Isn't that covered under the doctrine of first sale? From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 16:15:41 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 65C02 (was RE: Stuff on ebay) In-Reply-To: <3673.4.20.168.172.1033673747.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20021003211542.949.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Smith wrote: > When Rockwell licensed the CMOS 6502 from WDC, they added their bit > manipuation instructions to it. Thus the Rockwell R65C02 has more > instructions than the "standard" 65C02 from WDC, GTE, NCR, and others. Speaking of the 65C02, does anyone know if replacing the 6502 in a PET or VIC-20 is known to trip up copy protection on any apps/games? I know that for well-behaved code, there should be no problems. I'm concerned about WordPro or some other pirate-fearing program trying to be clever with undocumented op codes, and not working with a real 65C02. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Oct 3 16:19:01 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <003301c26b21$924abea0$3200a8c0@winnt> References: <038201c26b1f$dc7af8c0$90f8b8ce@impac.com> <003301c26b21$924abea0$3200a8c0@winnt> Message-ID: <20021003214058.GE37876@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Christopher McNabb, from writings of Thu, Oct 03, 2002 at 05:12:24PM -0400: > > Did anyone happen to copy down his mailing address from the garage sale > > page before it stopped working? I want to send him payment for a couple > > of items he's holding for me. > > As much as I hate to say it - me too. If someone does have the address, can > you post it to the list (or barring that, include me in the email)? Same here. Thanks. -- Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From curt at atari-history.com Thu Oct 3 17:02:00 2002 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" References: <038201c26b1f$dc7af8c0$90f8b8ce@impac.com> Message-ID: <000601c26b28$88b62ee0$0b00a8c0@cvendel> What happened??? I donated $100 a while back to the save Jim's Garage fund..... Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik S. Klein" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:00 PM Subject: RE: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" > Jim Willing's website seems to be down and I assume his email went with > it. > > Did anyone happen to copy down his mailing address from the garage sale > page before it stopped working? I want to send him payment for a couple > of items he's holding for me. > > Thank you, > > Erik S. Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > > > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 3 17:10:00 2002 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <000601c26b28$88b62ee0$0b00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: FYI.... Jim Willing is in Kansas... His website and email is still in Oregon... His ISP is having an outage. Although I haven't talked to Jim or the ISP (I use the ISP for other services) I'm sure the problem is being worked... Best Regards, George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Curt Vendel wrote: > What happened??? I donated $100 a while back to the save Jim's Garage > fund..... > > > > Curt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erik S. Klein" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:00 PM > Subject: RE: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" > > > > Jim Willing's website seems to be down and I assume his email went with > > it. > > > > Did anyone happen to copy down his mailing address from the garage sale > > page before it stopped working? I want to send him payment for a couple > > of items he's holding for me. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Erik S. Klein > > www.vintage-computer.com > > > > > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 3 17:32:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <3D9CA4D1.204859E2@naffnet.org.uk> References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <4969.4.20.168.172.1033673022.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <3D9CA4D1.204859E2@naffnet.org.uk> Message-ID: <3633.4.20.168.172.1033684426.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > If it's a gift, and the value is less that $100 then the customs section > of the > US embassy pages here in the UK imply that there is no duty to pay - > other than that the first $100 would not be subject to duty. The problem is if customs things the value is more than $100. If you buy it for $25, the value is $25, and it doesn't matter what customs thinks it is worth. From archer at topnow.com Thu Oct 3 17:33:01 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 65C02 (was RE: Stuff on ebay) References: <20021003211542.949.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D9CC5F3.A20FB447@topnow.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Eric Smith wrote: > > When Rockwell licensed the CMOS 6502 from WDC, they added their bit > > manipuation instructions to it. Thus the Rockwell R65C02 has more > > instructions than the "standard" 65C02 from WDC, GTE, NCR, and others. > > Speaking of the 65C02, does anyone know if replacing the 6502 in a PET > or VIC-20 is known to trip up copy protection on any apps/games? I > know that for well-behaved code, there should be no problems. I'm > concerned about WordPro or some other pirate-fearing program trying > to be clever with undocumented op codes, and not working with a real > 65C02. There's always the possibility, but CMOS versions would be much better candidates for such perverse cleverness than the old NMOS parts. At least I vaguely recall that most if not all unimplemented instructions for the NMOS 6502 either sent the CPU careening off into the weeds or were simple duplicates of "legal" op-codes due to incomplete op-decoding. Hopefully others who know I'm full of beans can correct this if it's wrong. This is the impression I got from reading the MINI-DIS listing in The First Book of KIM (not with me at the moment), anyways. P.S.: I think 512Kx8 for a KIM-1 is pretty cool, but I haven't figured out the best TLB/MMU and cache implementation. ;) > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 3 17:46:00 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9CA0A6.5030006@charter.net> from "James Rice" at Oct 03, 2002 02:55:18 PM Message-ID: <200210032247.SAA12263@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great James Rice once stated: > > I feel that the BeBox fit's that category. An orphan OS, unusual design > (dual PPC, not a Mac, PC conponent's, case color, and don't forget the > blinkin lights). The last BeBoxs won't be 10 years old until 2008. I don't think it's quite that young---I think they first came out in '95 or '96. I remember at the time that my partner (and boss) was planning on getting me one if I finished a project on time (which I didn't, but that's another story). -spc (Looked like a cool box at the time ... ) From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 3 18:05:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay Message-ID: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2057697313 Ok, the price is high but this is surely a one of a kind. Dwight From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Oct 3 18:14:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <4969.4.20.168.172.1033673022.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3D9CCF71.D029C24@compsys.to> >Eric Smith wrote: > > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither one of us is > > sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > > over the border. > If the equipment was originally made in USA, it's no problem. Just > tell US Customs that you're reptriating it. They may want some proof > that it's made in USA. A label stating that is best, but even just > the address of the manufacturer being in the USA may be sufficient. > > Failing that, you can just tell them that it's old scrap with no > commercial value. That's true, isn't it? > > It might help to buy the equipment from him for a nominal price rather > than get it as a gift. If you buy it (for $25, perhaps) and have > a bill of sale, the import duty would be based on the sale price. But > if it's a gift, Customs would try to determine the value and assess the > import duty based on that. > > I'm not an expert, but I've brought computer equipment into the US from > Canada twice without problems. Jerome Fine replies: While my experience has MOSTLY been in the opposite direction form the US to Canada, the few times I have sent items to the US, it has not been a problem. If you don't need to insure the shipment, then I still strongly agree that a nominal value of $ US 10 is MUCH better than zero since immediately the US customs (as is the same in Canada - all bureaucracy is really the same) will want to make an evaluation. HOWEVER, from what I understand, the value of the shipment and the insurance "tend" to correspond - although we both know that repairs are very often more than the worth of something. BUT, the shipper will not insure the merchandise for more than the declared value - of course, they are cooperating with customs, but when was that not the situation. One possible method is to say that the shipment is being returned under warranty for repair in the US where it was built. I expect that might get by most of the time, but not always. After all, if it had been sent to Canada and arrived broken, there would be a record of it being shipped in the first place. Normally, on shipments of a reasonable value, the country of origin is not questioned if stated as the US and the stuff has the name of the company which is located in the US. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jingber at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 3 18:23:01 2002 From: jingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> Added Bonus: Kevin Mitnick is personally willing to deliver the laptop anywhere in the United States, provided that the Buyer pays for travel expenses, and the U.S. Probation Department grants permission to travel. I thought he couldn't "touch" computers. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 19:06, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2057697313 > > Ok, the price is high but this is surely a one of a kind. > Dwight > > > From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Oct 3 18:39:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <000d01c26b1b$be6a9420$6401a8c0@DCOHOE> Message-ID: <3D9CD561.1EACCDD@compsys.to> >Dan Cohoe wrote: > I usually am bringing stuff into Canada, but once I wanted to pass through > from Eastern Ontario into New York, through Syracuse, then back into Canada > at Buffalo. Problem was, I had about 20 HP 9000 series 300 machines with me > coming from Canada. The US Customs agent heard my story, looked at the HP > plate that said "Made in USA" and sent me on my way to Buffalo. > > My experience going the other way has always been that a good explanation of > what you are doing, a reasonable valuation (more than $0 even if the stuff > was a gift to you), and a look by the agent at a date sticker or an IC with > an early eighties or beyond date will convince at least a supervisor that > the goods have very little value and that the real reason you are doing this > is because of some weakness in your mental powers. Jerome Fine replies: Dan, if you see this, give me a call. Sometime in the last 3 or 4 years, I went to Detroit and picked up about 8 VT100/VT220 terminals along with a BA23 box or two - I can't really remember that long ago. In any case, the stuff was really dirty and when I went through customs in Canada, all they needed was to see the date of manufacture on the back as being in the first half of the 1980s. The trip took a whole day (Toronto => Detroit => Toronto), but the gas was really the only cost (plus the tunnel tolls). So it seemed OK at the time. But I did need to convince the guy at customs that I was more than a bit crazy in running such old computers - I think the dirt helped quite a bit. The following year I went to Cleveland and did the same thing. But the fellow that gave me the BA123 and the terminals insisted on cash - $ 10 to balance the books at the company. That actually was useful at Canadian customs as it was the actual truth. By the way, shipping into Canada is probably still very easy if the valuation or "Commercial Invoice" shows less than $ US 12 or more specifically less than $ Can 20 - in that case, the shipment is noted as being of "Low Value" and goes into Canada under "Courier Remission" - which translates as NO GST - which translates as no broker required to clear the shipment since there is nothing to collect - computer parts having no duty, but EVERYTHING STILL has GST (7%) applied when it is coming into Ontario. So a broker is really needed only to pass on the GST to the Federal Government - a rather sweet set up that UPS, in particular, takes advantage of. I image that similar set up applies in the opposite direction, but the dollar threshold might be different. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Oct 3 18:43:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> Message-ID: <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> >"Jeffrey H. Ingber" wrote: > Added Bonus: Kevin Mitnick is personally willing to deliver the laptop > anywhere in the United States, provided that the Buyer pays for travel > expenses, and the U.S. Probation Department grants permission to > travel. > I thought he couldn't "touch" computers. > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jingber@ix.netcom.com) > >On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 19:06, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2057697313 > > Ok, the price is high but this is surely a one of a kind. > > Dwight Jerome Fine replies: Someone else can put it into a box or he can wear gloves? Now if he can't go near a computer, how does he run the microwave? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 3 19:35:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay Message-ID: One presumes his car doesn't have electronic fuel injection... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From jim at jkearney.com Thu Oct 3 19:37:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> Message-ID: <043d01c26b3e$5280eac0$1301090a@jkearney.com> I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum (http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm), and they asked me if I had or knew anyone who had an actual copy of Gordon Moore's original Moore's Law article. I don't, but perhaps someone here does? They didn't say why, but I presume they want to acquire it. The exact citation is: "Cramming More Components Onto Integrated Circuits" Author: Gordon E. Moore Publication: Electronics, April 19, 1965 There is a scan (I guess from a library copy) at http://www.intel.com/research/silicon/moorespaper.pdf Jim From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 3 19:44:01 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> from "Jeffrey H. Ingber" at "Oct 2, 2 07:22:59 pm" Message-ID: <200210040053.RAA16956@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I thought he couldn't "touch" computers. I'm sure he'll use gloves. If people want the almost real thing, I'll sell my T1950 for half that! Just $7,500! It's almost as good, almost! The high bidder is currently a Mr. Phukewe. I'm sure he'll pay the full obscene $15,000 it's going for right now. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 3 19:44:24 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9C8B8C.1060203@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > So highly customized PC's, or specialized machines (i.e. EISA bus) may > hold more interest than your standard PCI based Pentiums, which are > about as collectable as a 10 year old toaster. You spoke too soon: The Toaster Museum Foundation http://www.toaster.org > But there are some 'interesting' things out there in PC land, strange > things that never made it into mass production, like Intel P54CBT's, or > extinct operating systems like PenPoint. PenPoint is definitely something worthy of collecting and discussing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 3 19:48:00 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 65C02 (was RE: Stuff on ebay) In-Reply-To: <3D9CC5F3.A20FB447@topnow.com> from Ross Archer at "Oct 3, 2 03:34:27 pm" Message-ID: <200210040058.RAA31692@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Speaking of the 65C02, does anyone know if replacing the 6502 in a PET > > or VIC-20 is known to trip up copy protection on any apps/games? I > > know that for well-behaved code, there should be no problems. I'm > > concerned about WordPro or some other pirate-fearing program trying > > to be clever with undocumented op codes, and not working with a real > > 65C02. > > There's always the possibility, but CMOS versions would be much > better candidates for such perverse cleverness than the old NMOS parts. > At least I vaguely recall that most if not all > unimplemented instructions for the NMOS 6502 either sent the > CPU careening off into the weeds or were simple duplicates of > "legal" op-codes due to incomplete op-decoding. Yes to the first, not just simple duplicates to the second. Some instructions actually combine the operations of two opcodes in one instruction (and I think in the same cycle execution time, though I need to check this), and some have totally novel behaviour. I doubt this is a big deal on the PET, but the VIC-20 may have some of the paranoid software that the original poster was worried about, and there are definitely some C64 loaders that used undocumented opcodes as part of their copy protection scheme. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 3 19:52:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <000601c26b28$88b62ee0$0b00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Curt Vendel wrote: > What happened??? I donated $100 a while back to the save Jim's Garage > fund..... The Computer Garage was saved. I guess he's just culling the superfluous to save the whole. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 3 20:08:00 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The list is about 5.5 years old now. > > (Amazing, isn't it?) Crap. In 4.5 years we can talk about it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Oct 3 21:19:01 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: <200210040220.WAA64268372@shell.TheWorld.com> >> I would actually like to see the "official" cutoff pushed out to 20 >> years, as 10 years just does not seem that long ago... > >We could start a second list: ClassicerCmp. Or named 'ClassicCmpLite' Megan From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Oct 3 21:24:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: <200210040225.WAA65173101@shell.TheWorld.com> Speaking of a C64... I know of someone who has one she wants to get rid of along with a disk drive... Contact Cesullivan@aol.com if interested... Megan From patrick at evocative.com Thu Oct 3 21:35:01 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam, Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had my EO 440... :-( Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Sellam Ismail > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:46 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 10 years > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > So highly customized PC's, or specialized machines (i.e. EISA bus) may > > hold more interest than your standard PCI based Pentiums, which are > > about as collectable as a 10 year old toaster. > > You spoke too soon: > > The Toaster Museum Foundation > http://www.toaster.org > > > But there are some 'interesting' things out there in PC land, strange > > things that never made it into mass production, like Intel P54CBT's, or > > extinct operating systems like PenPoint. > > PenPoint is definitely something worthy of collecting and discussing. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 3 22:04:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had my EO 440... > :-( I have one ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Oct 3 22:26:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> <043d01c26b3e$5280eac0$1301090a@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <3D9D0A84.FA0154BB@compsys.to> >Jim Kearney wrote: > I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum > (http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but I guess it is an "Intel" museum. Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad comment just to read about the products that were way behind, and still are, the excellence of other products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major accomplishment. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Oct 4 03:06:01 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Spectrum Issue 2 Message-ID: I have a Spectrum (issue two) with a duff power connector. Does anyone know where I can get a direct replacement connector in the UK (other than ripping it off another similar Spectrum ...). Thanks Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri Oct 4 03:25:01 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: OSI disk basic disk Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146EAD@BUSH02> >> Does anyone have an image of the OSI Disk BASIC disk? > Did they actually have anything called "Disk BASIC"? When > I used OSI systems, they had two operating systems, OS-65/D > and OS-65/U (not sure of the punctuation in those). There was advertised, at least in the UK, a disk expansion (OSI 610) that included 12k disk BASIC on disk. From what I remember if you got the fully populated expansion (24k) and had the full complement of RAM on the CPU (8k) you had 19000 and something bytes free after loading the disk BASIC. > OS-65/D was what was normally found on smaller systems. > It was a pathetic excuse for an operating system. Now I've gone to the trouble of building the hardware I'd like to try some original software on it. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Oct 4 09:11:01 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <3D9D0A84.FA0154BB@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3D9D5B64.4066.816BF59@localhost> Well no matter what we may think about the Intel behemoth now, one can't deny Moore's accomplishments. From his time with Shockley, the Fairchild start-up by Shockleys "the traitorist eight", and then founding Intel with Noyce and Graves. What I was surprised at, was the date of the "Electronics" issue. I didn't know they went back that far. I have about 20 issues from 80 and 83 including the massive April 80 'Special Commemortive Issue". I value them for resources more than my 80-83 Bytes. Talk about elitist ! "Subscriptions limited to professional persons with active responsability in electronics technology. No subscriptions accepted without complete identification of subscriber name, title or job function, company or organization, and product manufactured or services performed. Based on information supplied, the publishers reserve the right to reject non-qualified requests." Makes me wonder if I could be prosecuted just for having them. :^) Lawrence > >Jim Kearney wrote: > > > I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum > > (http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its > stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware > as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but > I guess it is an "Intel" museum. > > Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far > behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad > comment just to read about the products that were > way behind, and still are, the excellence of other > products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been > produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major > accomplishment. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Oct 4 09:13:15 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D9D5B64.30599.816BF8B@localhost> Am I missing something here ? I have a SCSI 1 gig Fujitsu model m2266sa hard drive that I've always considered a FH since it's the same dimensions (just over 3.5") as the FH floppy in the original IBM PC. Or does the reference here to 3.5" relate, like 5 1/4, to fdd size . Lawrence > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Don Maslin wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Jay West wrote: > > > > > > > Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb > > > > > > Actually, it's 2G: > > > > > > ST - seagate > > > 1 - 3.5" > > > 2400 - 2.4GB > > > N - Narrow scsi > > > > In reality, it is a 3.5" half-high, SCSI-2 FAST of 2400MB capacity. > > Half-high being about 1.6" tall. > > I've seen lots of companies call these drives full height, while floppy > drives and such were considered half height. Maybe different folks refer > to the height differently. The actual height of these drives should be > right about 1.63". > > -Toth > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Oct 4 09:13:24 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <000d01c26b1b$be6a9420$6401a8c0@DCOHOE> References: <4969.4.20.168.172.1033673022.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3D9D5B64.4428.816BEDC@localhost> I ship and receive goods all the time from here in Canada. Usually there is no problem, except occasionally getting dinged on this end for GST (goods and services tax). Since NAFTA (which I HATE generally), there is no duty on electronics to my knowledge. It is unecessary to disable the equipment nor does it matter where it was manufactured. One should avoid customs brokers like a plague and also UPS which charges a brokerage fee. The customs forms are quite simple and more designed to prevent entry for unauthorized goods. Considering how easy it is I'm always annoyed with the USAers who won't ship to Canada. This is especially prevalent among southerners who seem to live in some insular world and ignore a market of 30 millian people. Don't think so ? Check ship-to's on E-Pay. If the amount of computers is considerable I would simply contact US customs to find out the steps to be taken. A former contributer to the list, IIRC pdp8.com (can't remember his name) bought out the leftover stock when DEC shut down Maynard. He had something like 5 truckloads that he brought up to Toronto in U-Haul trucks. I got in contact with him and eagerly offered to supplement his crew of family and friends, but was turned down. :^( :^(( The Toronto collectors group I helped start was to do a tour of his operation but fell apart before it occurred. He seemed to be a nice guy and could possibly offer valid advice. In checking his site I see that it is now in Niagara Falls. Don't know whether he is still the owner but a phone call wouldn't hurt. PDP8.COM  1477896 Ontario Limited  5444 Victoria Ave.  Niagara Falls, ON L2G 3L2  Canada  (905) 468-4597  Lawrence > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > > Behalf Of Eric Smith > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 3:24 PM > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? > > > > > > > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > > > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither > > one of us is > > > sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > > > over the border. > > ........Eric Smith said: > > > > If the equipment was originally made in USA, it's no problem. Just > > tell US Customs that you're reptriating it. They may want some proof > > that it's made in USA. A label stating that is best, but even just > > the address of the manufacturer being in the USA may be sufficient. > > > > Failing that, you can just tell them that it's old scrap with no > > commercial value. That's true, isn't it? > > > > It might help to buy the equipment from him for a nominal price rather > > than get it as a gift. If you buy it (for $25, perhaps) and have > > a bill of sale, the import duty would be based on the sale price. But > > if it's a gift, Customs would try to determine the value and > > assess the > > import duty based on that. > > > > I'm not an expert, but I've brought computer equipment into > > the US from > > Canada twice without problems. > > > > I usually am bringing stuff into Canada, but once I wanted to pass through > from Eastern Ontario into New York, through Syracuse, then back into Canada at > Buffalo. Problem was, I had about 20 HP 9000 series 300 machines with me coming > from Canada. The US Customs agent heard my story, looked at the HP plate that > said "Made in USA" and sent me on my way to Buffalo. > > My experience going the other way has always been that a good explanation of > what you are doing, a reasonable valuation (more than $0 even if the stuff was a > gift to you), and a look by the agent at a date sticker or an IC with an early > eighties or beyond date will convince at least a supervisor that the goods have > very little value and that the real reason you are doing this is because of some > weakness in your mental powers. > > Dan Cohoe > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From jim at jkearney.com Fri Oct 4 10:03:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> <043d01c26b3e$5280eac0$1301090a@jkearney.com> <3D9D0A84.FA0154BB@compsys.to> Message-ID: <004001c26bb7$53eeeeb0$1301090a@jkearney.com> > I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its > stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware > as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but > I guess it is an "Intel" museum. > > Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far > behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad > comment just to read about the products that were > way behind, and still are, the excellence of other > products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been > produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major > accomplishment. Well, of course it's a branch of the corporate PR department, what did you expect? But the Intel of the 1969-1979 era was a dynamic and innovative company. Look at the 3101, 1101, 4004, 8008, 1702, 2102, 8080, etc. All the other companies were playing catch-up. The Moore article is indepent of Intel anyway, it was written when he was at Fairchild before Intel was even founded. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 4 10:25:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: ClassicCmpLite? Tastes great, less filling? heh _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Oct 4 10:29:01 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Looking for 9trk drive Message-ID: I am in the market for a DEC TE16 or Kennedy 9300 working drive with Unibus formatter card and cables. I don't have much to trade, but will pay reasonable bux and also pay to have it shipped , or pick up in the NorCal/Oregon/NorNevada areas. This is for an 11/44 system. I have an M4 Data streamer, a very nice SCSI/Pertec device, works well, quiet - but it lacks the 'cachet', shall we say, of watching those reels go 'round. Cheers and Thanks! John From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Oct 4 10:30:01 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <3D9D5B64.4066.816BF59@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Well no matter what we may think about the Intel behemoth now, one can't > deny Moore's accomplishments. From his time with Shockley, the Fairchild > start-up by Shockleys "the traitorist eight", and then founding Intel with > Noyce and Graves. > > What I was surprised at, was the date of the "Electronics" issue. I didn't > know they went back that far. I have about 20 issues from 80 and 83 including > the massive April 80 'Special Commemortive Issue". I value them for > resources more than my 80-83 Bytes. > > Talk about elitist ! > "Subscriptions limited to professional persons with active responsability in > electronics technology. No subscriptions accepted without complete > identification of subscriber name, title or job function, company or > organization, and product manufactured or services performed. Based on > information supplied, the publishers reserve the right to reject non-qualified > requests." > > Makes me wonder if I could be prosecuted just for having them. :^) Actually they just said that to make their advertisers happy. I had a subscripion when I was ~15 (a _long_ _long_ time ago) PCW From jss at subatomix.com Fri Oct 4 10:45:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> References: <20021001170427.J52018-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <9291549330.20021004104302@subatomix.com> On Tuesday, October 1, 2002, James Willing wrote: > The offering list and details can be found at: > > http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/Gsale I think it's working now. -- Jeffrey Sharp From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Oct 4 11:06:01 2002 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: RD53 repair Message-ID: I know Allison posted on this several years ago, but I couldn't find a collection of instructions. Maybe someone has put this together in a "cookbook." I have several RD53s that I'd like to get data off of. I opened one up as described in previous posts. However it's not obvious to my eyes where the failed rubber bumper is. Do any of you have any detailed instructions you can send or point me to regarding repairing these drives? Thanks for any help. John --------------------------------------------------------- John A. Dundas III Director, Information Technology Services, Caltech Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA 91125-8100 Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 4 11:07:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> <043d01c26b3e$5280eac0$1301090a@jkearney.com> <3D9D0A84.FA0154BB@compsys.to> Message-ID: <002d01c26bc0$35c6a960$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Intel, in my opinion, is so far behind from > a technical point of view that is is a sad... I regard some things about Intel pretty highly, like their managers. No-one seems to be a total offence like Gates/Ballmer/etc. do to me. On the contrary, reading Andy Groves' philosophy (in the SJ Mercury news) was a real pleasure. However, in that Intel has to service Microsoft in keeping its half of the monopoly going, that's where all the compromises have to be made. I really think they have great potential otherwise. BTW I think Moore's law is totally on point, for the whole industry. John A. From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 4 11:11:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <004001c26bb7$53eeeeb0$1301090a@jkearney.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Jim Kearney wrote: > But the Intel of the 1969-1979 era was a dynamic and innovative company. > Look at the 3101, 1101, 4004, 8008, 1702, 2102, 8080, etc. All the other > companies were playing catch-up. A significant point to make: With regards to the 4004, it wasn't terrifically innovative. Many people who designed LSI circuits of the era considered a "processor on a chip" the next logical step. By the time Intel did it the technology was feasible enough to do so without requiring a mammoth effort (3 people did it). The real envelope pushers were Ray Holt with the CADC (20-bit serial architecture) circa 1969-1970 and Four Phase Systems with their AL-1 (8-bit parallel architecture) circa 1968-1969. Intel's effort was actually mediocre compared to what was possible at the time of the 4004's development. There wasn't really any practical application for the CPU-on-a-chip (until Busicom decided that was the architecture they wanted for their calculators) and so there was no quick rush to develop one when it became possible. TI was right on the heels of Intel with their TMS1000. Other companies quickly followed with microprocessors the following year, that were far more powerful than anything Intel had (AMI for one). So to say all the other companies were playing catch-up is misleading. It could be argued that once the market for such a chip was proven by Intel, other companies quickly jumped on the bandwagon. A good website to reference: http://www.datamath.org/Story/Intel.htm > The Moore article is indepent of Intel anyway, it was written when he > was at Fairchild before Intel was even founded. Moore's Law is definitely significant as it became a self-fulfilling prophecy that drove the computer industry to try to obey it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jim at jkearney.com Fri Oct 4 12:02:42 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: Message-ID: <006c01c26bc7$c0740c90$1301090a@jkearney.com> > With regards to the 4004, it wasn't terrifically innovative. Many people You're right, "innovative" was not the best choice of words. "Firsts" might have been better. Clearly (and particularly in the memory area) they were doing something right, because they set the standards for almost all the major devices of the early-mid 70s. I really wasn't trying to boost Intel, but point out that the earlier poster's dissing of Intel didn't really apply to the Moore era company. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 4 12:04:01 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20021002112030.043403b0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <20021004100146.G18179-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Greetings; On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Tony Eros wrote: > Jim - > > I couldn't reach your web site to get your address. Could you drop me a > note with it so I can get the bucks out to you? Yeah, the net seems to be having a bad week... James Willing The Computer Garage P.O. Box 242 Yates Center, KS. 66783-0242 Thanks; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 4 12:04:11 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Computer Garage - "Garage Sale" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021004100331.C18179-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Greetings; On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, David A. Woyciesjes wrote: > > The offering list and details can be found at: > > > > http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/Gsale > > > > I don't think it's me, but the web server is not responding... Yeah, the net seems to be having a bad week. Looks like its back now. Thanks; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From patrick at evocative.com Fri Oct 4 12:34:00 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had > my EO 440... > > :-( > > I have one ;) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... "went". --Patrick From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 4 13:07:01 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Oops... Message-ID: <20021004110728.Y43927-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Sorry gang, email/web site just came back on line (net seems to be having a bad week) and in trying to respond to some inquiries I see that the mailer responded back to the list. My bad. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 4 13:09:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Looking for 9trk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2928.4.20.168.172.1033754991.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > I am in the market for a DEC TE16 or Kennedy 9300 working drive with > Unibus formatter card and cables. [...] > This is for an 11/44 system. The TE16 is a Massbus drive, so you would need an RH11 Massbus adapter to use it. I've got s spare TE16, but I don't have a spare RH11. Let me know if you want the TE16. I've got some other tape drives that might be available, including a few Kennedy 9100s, but no 9300. Eric From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Oct 4 14:38:01 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Geek Wives, was ->RE: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <4793.4.20.168.172.1033674721.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC4B@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC4B@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021004123756.03c7b7c0@mail.zipcon.net> At 12:52 PM 10/3/02 -0700, you wrote: >Also, the third step of your algorithm seems to be quite >difficult to achieve. not as hard to #define WIFE GEEK_WIFE as you'd think. I brought my wife over to the geek side a few years back, starting with getting her started on her own web site :) now she has a Apex switchbox and 3 machines at her desk :) From Mzthompson at aol.com Fri Oct 4 15:17:00 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Earlier Acquistions Message-ID: I went into the local PC reseller's shop just over a month ago. He had gotten in a big mess of machines which included some Apple stuff. I managed to talk him out of three PowerMacs (not quite 10 years old yet) for 10 bucks each. The models were 7200/120 (with a 1.2 gb HDD), 7200/90, and a 7100/66. These weren't for me though and they are gone now. A friend of mine took them for his daughter's private church school. If it were not for his efforts they probably wouldn't even have that first machine. These were the machines only, no monitors, kybds, mice, etc. That has been partially rectified. See my next posting. Mike From Mzthompson at aol.com Fri Oct 4 15:17:41 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:45 2005 Subject: Hamfest: Bedford Indiana Message-ID: <17a.fd212c7.2acf519a@aol.com> As mentioned in an earlier posting, there is a hamfest this weekend. It is at Bedford Indiana. It is not usually a big hamfest, but I seem to find better goodies there than some of the bigger events. It is also a reunion of sorts for a group of folks from all over Indiana and I get to see old friends from Civil Air Patrol days and the like. In addition to the Intel PC stuff mentioned in an earlier posting, I will have some other computer stuff. Under the heading of DEC will be some keyboards, mice (you awake Ethan), MMJ cables & adapters, as well as some free manuals (which I won't bring back). Also hope to take some spare NeXT parts. If you are interested in going, see: http://www.hoosierhillshamfest.org for a map, directions and GPS info. If you mention you are a Classiccmp'er, I'll give you a good discount and maybe even a free goodie or two. Mike KA9JWZ From Mzthompson at aol.com Fri Oct 4 15:17:50 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Recent Acquistions (Intel) Message-ID: <2d.2461aef3.2acf5198@aol.com> After I got the PowerMacs, I went back with an idea. Since he considers 486's and lower to be useless I made a suggestion. I would tear them down to cards, memory, drives, cables, etc. and I would take the stuff to an upcoming hamfest (see next posting) and sell it cheap. He agreed and we decided on a 50-50 split and I got 'skimming' rights to the machines as I tear them down to cover my time. We also decided to recycle the cases and motherboards to keep them out of the landfill. So after a few afternoons I got more PC stuff piled around here than even I can tolerate. Let me just say that I am not so naive as to believe that the majority of this mess will sell. I suspect the shop owner thinks otherwise. But who knows, someone might walk up and see that box full of hundreds of SIMMS and make me an offer that I just can't refuse. During those afternoons, he would come back and offer to give me this and that. I think he was happy to just be able to walk into the store room and see the empty space grow. Out of all his offers was a monitor for a PowerMac that had been recently uncovered. The thing that probably made all of this worth it is what I call the Borland Bonanza. Among all the machines were boxes of software. I got about two dozen sets of disks in unopened plastic wrap. It includes Paradox, dbase, Turbo C++, Turbo Pascal, ObjectVision, Delphi, etc. For some products there is both DOS and Windoze versions. Given that it is older versions, I suppose that it is available on their web site. Still there is something to be said for having the original disks. Mike From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 4 15:48:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Hamfest: Bedford Indiana In-Reply-To: <17a.fd212c7.2acf519a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021004204910.85267.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > As mentioned in an earlier posting, there is a hamfest this weekend. It > is at Bedford Indiana... > > Under the heading of DEC will be some keyboards, mice (you awake > Ethan)... I'm awake but have other plans this weekend, far from Indiana. :-( Thanks for thinking of me. -ethan N8TVD __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Oct 4 17:38:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> People actually remember Penpoint! I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based portable PC called a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine with a paper-white mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, RF-linked 'pen' stylus with mouse-like buttons, etc. You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen Computing, a hacked up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was centered around the idea of an electronic book. I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to assist Go Inc. in their efforts to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down with a prototype and a stack of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the time, I found it easy to learn despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly unreadable handwriting style. But then things got ugly. The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of smart card, flash and SRAM cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or device name, so when you inserted a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 PCMCIA slots, something Go had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature thought to be critical for a major customer who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the first place. Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I could then pop a second card into slot 1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card and its icon disappeared, the identical icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical slot, as the GUI presentation depended on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, you were sure to delete files from the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media actually held your data. It was nasty. When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called into 'urgent' meetings. In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just could not fix, and without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough to kill the complete VersaPad project. A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile robots. If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the 2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been a long time since I've used either one. Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! Patrick Rigney wrote: >>On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: >> >>>Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had >>> >>my EO 440... >> >>>:-( >>> >>I have one ;) >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage >> > >Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I >worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... >"went". --Patrick > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021004/1905d185/attachment.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Oct 4 17:43:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: New finds on Thursday At the Thrift's Message-ID: <00ca01c26bf7$84353990$93000240@oemcomputer> Got a digital DECstation 5000/240 $6.95 plus tax no keyboard, mouse or monitor with it. A dca IRMA Key/3270 keyboard in excellent shape. A dtk DLT-3311 laptop for $8 no charger with it so not able to test it yet. Apple mono monitor A2M2010 with cable. A DeLorme TripMate Hyperformance GPS unit for laptop missing software and manual, was free. A TI Passport Flight Computer was free. SyQuest SyJet 1.5 GB internal SCSI cartridge unit was $1.21 and I found one cartridge for it (the lady let me have it for 60 cents), and I also found the install 3.5 FD for it at a cost of 75 cents. Got some game cartridges for the NES, SNS, Sega CD, and some controllers for PS1 console. Also got several mousepads for that collection and some books/manuals. From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 4 18:04:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years Message-ID: <200210042305.QAA17122@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bob Just thought I'd let you know that this last message was sent with an html attachment. You shouldn't sent html to news groups. Dwight From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Fri Oct 4 18:21:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Excelan EXOS 8000S ? Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC6C@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Hi all ! While reading in the *pile* of magtapes (on my left side; rightside for the viewers ;-) I found a tape which doesn't look very familiar to me: Excelan EXOS 8000-0101S TCP/IP NETWORK SOFTWARE SOURCE PRODUCT FOR OEM DEVELOPMENT PN: 4408000-0101S REL: 3.3Zv7 It has three more labels, all of which warn about it's contents being proprietary, confidential, yadda yadda. The usual :) Question: what is this? Does anyone know, or remember, what the EXOS 8000S was? The contents (2.3MB or so) look like a UNIX dist of some kind, with UNIX shell scripts for installation... the rest is probably a compressed file with the sources. Any ideas? Thx, TapeMa$ter Fred From jim at jkearney.com Fri Oct 4 18:25:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: New finds on Thursday At the Thrift's References: <00ca01c26bf7$84353990$93000240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <002301c26bfd$76bc1210$1301090a@jkearney.com> > A DeLorme TripMate Hyperformance GPS unit for laptop missing software and > manual, was free. It doesn't come with any software. It works with their Street Atlas and other mapping software, but in reality once you initialize it right it just spits out coordinates over its serial cable. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Oct 4 18:58:01 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: New finds on Thursday At the Thrift's References: <00ca01c26bf7$84353990$93000240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3D9E2A81.80FCD8D4@gifford.co.uk> Keys wrote: > Got a digital DECstation 5000/240 $6.95 plus tax no keyboard, mouse or > monitor with it. I got one of those a few weeks ago, for free. I also have no mouse or keyboard, but I do know the pinout of the special DEC cable for them. It's the same as the cable for the DEC 3000/600, which is an Alpha machine (the 5000 is a MIPS box). If you want to make up a cable, you'll need an LK201 keyboard (or an LK401) and a VSXXX-AA mouse (or similar "round" mouse). My machine runs NetBSD just fine. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Oct 4 19:15:01 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3D9E2E68.2B28F2A5@gifford.co.uk> Bob Shannon wrote: > You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for > Pen Computing, I have a Samsung "tablet" PC that runs this little-known version of Windows. I think it's from 1993, so nearly on-topic. I used it a year or two ago to show my students some alternative interface designs. It had a configuration option for landscape or portrait display, although some applications failed when in portrait mode. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From patrick at evocative.com Fri Oct 4 19:35:01 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> Message-ID: Bob, Great story. But, I don't think you can take credit for even a small part in killing PenPoint. What really killed it, in my opinion (and c'mon, dish out the flames all you lurkers out there, I'm ready for ya), was the engineering team itself. PenPoint's fatal flaw was that its development was like some kind of psychotic symphony, with too many conductors, and musicians working from different sheet music or ignoring the music altogether. The engineers couldn't stop engineering, and often had conflicting goals and marching orders, and for the most part, engineering management didn't seem to be able to get their hands around it, despite some really good people giving it their best. Even late in "release" cycles there would be major internal subsystems thrown into the round file and rewritten (killing one bug and injecting who knows how many others, and sometimes dropping requirements of other subsystems). The "90%" meeting you referred to was classic Go... get everybody in one room, twenty, thirty, or more, and try to get them to agree. As time droned on, the cost of development steadily climbed, cash slipped away, and the end came with just a slight push from AT&T. Go had great engineers, but in the absence of sufficient discipline and process, they made themselves the poster children for the "herding cats" analogy so often heard in reference to software project management. My stint there was short. My third week at the company, there was a 50% layoff. I was spared, for reasons unknown; I should have been among the first to go. I lasted about five months, and then the rumors began that AT&T was killing the Hobbit, the processor on which the 440 and 880 were based. Fatal, no money to retool. I was outta there, just weeks before the doors closed. I was responsible for GoMail (the modem-based email link/application), and GoConnect (a LapLink-like PC bridge that presented your desktop PC's files in the book metaphor in PenPoint). Fun stuff, but we also ran into our deep-system problems (remember the 63-character pathname limit? PenPoint borrowed heavily from ancient MS-DOS, internally). PenPoint (and its applications) were cool beyond belief, truly "killer apps". Too bad it didn't last. It would really be great on today's hardware... My 2p, Patrick -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Shannon Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 3:41 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years People actually remember Penpoint! I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based portable PC called a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine with a paper-white mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, RF-linked 'pen' stylus with mouse-like buttons, etc. You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen Computing, a hacked up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was centered around the idea of an electronic book. I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to assist Go Inc. in their efforts to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down with a prototype and a stack of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the time, I found it easy to learn despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly unreadable handwriting style. But then things got ugly. The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of smart card, flash and SRAM cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or device name, so when you inserted a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 PCMCIA slots, something Go had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature thought to be critical for a major customer who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the first place. Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I could then pop a second card into slot 1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card and its icon disappeared, the identical icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical slot, as the GUI presentation depended on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, you were sure to delete files from the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media actually held your data. It was nasty. When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called into 'urgent' meetings. In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just could not fix, and without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough to kill the complete VersaPad project. A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile robots. If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the 2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been a long time since I've used either one. Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! Patrick Rigney wrote: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had my EO 440... :-( I have one ;)Sellam Ismail Vintage Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. Iworked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then..."went". --Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021004/bfb79b07/attachment.html From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 4 20:48:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > I have one ;) > > Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I > worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... > "went". --Patrick Yes, it still works. It's basically complete in the original box. I can try to take a picture at some point, but I'm sure you can dig something up on the web. So were you around to observe all the Microsoft trickery and shenanigans that led to them basically stealing PenPoint from under your noses? Jerry Kaplan's book _Startup_ was a great read. But from what I heard, the VCs basically considered Jerry a boob after the whole Go fiasco. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 4 21:08:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bob, Is this machine related to the pen top Fujitsu computer? I have one but haven't used it in a while. The dammed batteries are about worthless in it, they go dead in a few days even with the machine off. Anyway mine has two (IIRC) PCMCIA slots and runs the pen version of Win 3.1. It's actually a pretty neat machine, you can detach the keyboard completely and run everything via the pen. Also it has SRAM for memory so you can turn it off then turn it back on and everything is exactly the way that you left it. I THINK I remember reading that this machine would support PenPoint but I've never seen a copy of it. Joe At 06:41 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >People actually remember Penpoint! > >I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. > >Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based >portable PC called >a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine >with a paper-white >mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, >RF-linked 'pen' stylus with >mouse-like buttons, etc. > >You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen >Computing, a hacked >up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was >centered around the idea of >an electronic book. > >I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to >assist Go Inc. in their efforts >to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down >with a prototype and a stack >of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the >time, I found it easy to learn >despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly >unreadable handwriting style. > >But then things got ugly. > >The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of >smart card, flash and SRAM >cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or >device name, so when you inserted >a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. > >Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 >PCMCIA slots, something Go >had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature >thought to be critical for a major customer >who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the >first place. > >Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I >could then pop a second card into slot >1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card >and its icon disappeared, the identical >icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that >had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. > >Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE >side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so >there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical >slot, as the GUI presentation depended >on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, >you were sure to delete files from >the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media >actually held your data. It was nasty. > >When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with >me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. >Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called >into 'urgent' meetings. > >In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be >fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would >be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just >could not fix, and >without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer >for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and >retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, >and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough >to kill the complete VersaPad project. > >A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of >Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. > I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT >flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile >robots. > >If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the >2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. > >Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer >Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been >a long time since I've used either one. > >Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! > >Patrick Rigney wrote: > >>>On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: >>> >>>>Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had >>>> >>>my EO 440... >>> >>>>:-( >>>> >>>I have one ;) >>> >>>Sellam Ismail Vintage >>> >> >>Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I >>worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... >>"went". --Patrick >> >> >> > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\Penpoint.htm" > From cbajpai at attbi.com Fri Oct 4 22:05:00 2002 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> Message-ID: <000201c26c1c$20ad2f20$177ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Hey Bob.I've got 2 prototype (working) NEC VersaPads (they actually say NEC Autograph on them). It's was a slick machine, our company SystemSoft was developing the PCMCIA for NEC. Not to be critical 10 years later, but the NEC VersaPad a lousy implementation of PCMCIA (hot swapping primarily), but it could have been our early engineering samples. The other machine from that era that impressed me was the NCR 3125. http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/ncr_3125/ Out of all the pen machine built in 1992-1994, I think the 3125 or the AT&T Safari machine were the biggest sellers (not that pen machines were big sellers). I never realized the VersaPad was never released..or that PenPoint ran on it. I would love to try it though. After GO went under I really regret (now) throwing out the PenPoint SDK, documentation, diskettes etc. I've an IBM pen computer that runs PenPoint and I really think it was much better then Windows for Pen Computing by far. I've always wanted a Momenta pen system - anyone have one? Momenta burned through $40M in VC money.until the dotcom era, that was the biggest disaster that VCs ever had. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Shannon Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 6:41 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years People actually remember Penpoint! I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based portable PC called a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine with a paper-white mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, RF-linked 'pen' stylus with mouse-like buttons, etc. You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen Computing, a hacked up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was centered around the idea of an electronic book. I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to assist Go Inc. in their efforts to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down with a prototype and a stack of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the time, I found it easy to learn despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly unreadable handwriting style. But then things got ugly. The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of smart card, flash and SRAM cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or device name, so when you inserted a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 PCMCIA slots, something Go had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature thought to be critical for a major customer who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the first place. Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I could then pop a second card into slot 1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card and its icon disappeared, the identical icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical slot, as the GUI presentation depended on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, you were sure to delete files from the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media actually held your data. It was nasty. When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called into 'urgent' meetings. In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just could not fix, and without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough to kill the complete VersaPad project. A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile robots. If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the 2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been a long time since I've used either one. Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! Patrick Rigney wrote: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had my EO 440... :-( I have one ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... "went". --Patrick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021004/3d76654e/attachment.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 4 22:56:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Joe wrote: > Is this machine related to the pen top Fujitsu computer? I have one but > haven't used it in a while. The dammed batteries are about worthless in > it, they go dead in a few days even with the machine off. Anyway mine > has two (IIRC) PCMCIA slots and runs the pen version of Win 3.1. It's > actually a pretty neat machine, you can detach the keyboard completely > and run everything via the pen. Also it has SRAM for memory so you can > turn it off then turn it back on and everything is exactly the way that > you left it. > > I THINK I remember reading that this machine would support PenPoint but > I've never seen a copy of it. IIRC, Alan Cox is currently working on getting the Linux kernel to play nice with one of those Fujitsu computers. Maybe once thats all polished it'll be a little more fun than win3.1? -Toth From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Oct 5 00:12:00 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion Message-ID: <3D9E2EAA.4459.B502B65@localhost> Does anyone on the list know a source for the kits to change SIMMs to SIPPs. I believe you soldered the tips on. Or better yet a source for these hard to get 30 pin RAM chips. Lawrence lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 5 00:55:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion In-Reply-To: <3D9E2EAA.4459.B502B65@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > Does anyone on the list know a source for the kits to change SIMMs to > SIPPs. I believe you soldered the tips on. Or better yet a source for > these hard to get 30 pin RAM chips. I've seen SIP modules made out of SIMMS with bits of wire soldered to the tinned pads. Of course, it really wasn't a pretty modification. I've never seen the pins available anywhere, but a company like Mouser Electronics or Digikey might stock something suitable. If you are handy with desoldering, you could always retrofit a board with SIMM sockets instead of SIP sockets. There might be SIMM sockets available with pins that would fit into the SIP socket too. -Toth From fernande at internet1.net Sat Oct 5 02:16:00 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: freebies in preparation of moving! Message-ID: <3D9E91EC.1000804@internet1.net> -2 DEC fan sleds with fans for BA440 chassis, from R400X DSSI Expansion Chassis -1 power supply for BA440 chassis, from R400X DSSI Expansion Chassis -Procomm Plus for Windows on 3.5" disk -Linear power supply from old Sperry external drive case, 12vdc 2amp, 5vdc 3.5 amp -Kensington System saver for a Mac Plus, SE, etc located in southwest Michigan, but I'll ship at the cost of the new owner. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Oct 5 02:34:00 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> Message-ID: <001d01c26c41$be51c860$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Shannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:41 PM Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based portable PC called a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine with a paper-white mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, RF-linked 'pen' stylus with mouse-like buttons, etc. OMG... I remember seeing a tablet-based machine in a computer store a few years ago, when 486 SX/25s were still "top of the range" as far as laptops were concerned. A fast-talking salesman walked up to my Mum and then proceeded to demo a rather nice tablet-based PC, followed by a very nice Samsung NoteMaster laptop. I told my Mum to get the tablet PC. She said "The laptop's better". Guess which one she ended up buying... Yup. A Samsung NoteMaster 486S/25N. As proprietary as hell - Samsung BIOS, proprietary hard drive, floppy drive, RAM, name it. And now the 3.6V lithium battery is duff. And to top it all off, Tadiran (original manufacturer) don't make another one like it. And I'm trading her my Compaq Contura 420C (after I put Win3.1 and Word 6 on it) for it. Why do I get the feeling I'm making a huge mistake? From dave at naffnet.org.uk Sat Oct 5 03:33:01 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman - dave@naffnet.org.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Excelan EXOS 8000S ? References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC6C@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3D9EA404.95523E55@naffnet.org.uk> "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > > Excelan > EXOS 8000-0101S > TCP/IP NETWORK SOFTWARE SOURCE PRODUCT > FOR OEM DEVELOPMENT > PN: 4408000-0101S REL: 3.3Zv7 > > It has three more labels, all of which warn about it's contents being > proprietary, confidential, yadda yadda. The usual :) > > Question: what is this? Does anyone know, or remember, what the EXOS > 8000S was? The contents (2.3MB or so) look like a UNIX dist of some > kind, with UNIX shell scripts for installation... the rest is probably > a compressed file with the sources. This is the source code fir the VMS networking product that they used to keep - development was on UNIX with RCS being used for version control, and all of the code was released into the public domain when the product was discontinued after the company was acquired - by whom I cannot remember. I used to have a copy of the sources, ftp'd long ago from the company ftp site, but they went via the head-crash route. When I went to get them again, they were unfindable. At the time, I could not get the sources to compile with the GNU C compiler (version 1.something) and I could not justify the cost of the VAX C compiler, just to see if it would compile them - I have no idea whether EXOS moved the sources to a VAX to compile them or cross-compiled on UNIX. Cheers, Dave. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 07:34:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Excelan EXOS 8000S ? Message-ID: Well I used to have some model of EXOS ethernet interface that was QBus... They were, at one point, owned by Novell.. The board even had Novell silkscreened on it, was quite amusing to me.. I still have a multibus EXOS card for a Masscomp. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 07:42:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete Message-ID: For what it's worth; RT-11 V4 seems to exist in both blue AND orange binder versions! And yes, the V4 manuals in blue do indeed have "PDP-11" style covers... Weird eh? Will J _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Oct 5 08:10:01 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion In-Reply-To: <3D9E2EAA.4459.B502B65@localhost> Message-ID: Somewhere in my piles of stuff, I have about 10 never soldered SIMM sockets, cut into individual units for just that purpose. The pin spacing matches SIPP sockets. If you can't find another source, let me know and I'll go digging. Bill Sudbrink > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Lawrence Walker > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 1:14 AM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion > > > Does anyone on the list know a source for the kits to change SIMMs to > SIPPs. I believe you soldered the tips on. Or better yet a source for these > hard to get 30 pin RAM chips. > > Lawrence > lgwalker@mts.net > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From jim at jkearney.com Sat Oct 5 08:20:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion References: Message-ID: <00dc01c26c72$04f6f440$1301090a@jkearney.com> You'll have to find out how to get some, but check out product # 3620 at mill-max.com. Die-Tech (die-tech.org) makes leadframes, including for SIPs, and might give you a substantial sample. Their products 5000-5006 look exactly right. These are from a discussion on Usenet a few months ago that I happened to remember. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 2:08 AM Subject: Re: SIPP to SIMM conversion > On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > Does anyone on the list know a source for the kits to change SIMMs to > > SIPPs. I believe you soldered the tips on. Or better yet a source for > > these hard to get 30 pin RAM chips. > > I've seen SIP modules made out of SIMMS with bits of wire soldered to the > tinned pads. Of course, it really wasn't a pretty modification. I've never > seen the pins available anywhere, but a company like Mouser Electronics or > Digikey might stock something suitable. > > If you are handy with desoldering, you could always retrofit a board with > SIMM sockets instead of SIP sockets. There might be SIMM sockets available > with pins that would fit into the SIP socket too. > > -Toth > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 5 08:44:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be > fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would > be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just > could not fix, and without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and > data-card, NEC's customer for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon > the Penpoint application and retool for a Windows for Pen Computing > application. The result of this, and some really major issues with early > Ni-MHD battery cells was enough to kill the complete VersaPad project. Why not just label the virtual PCMCIA card (the "book" icon) with the slot number? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 5 08:45:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D9EED98.3050603@tiac.net> NEC VersaPad was based on a standard WinTel laptop design. They simply re-packaged it, eliminating the conventional clambshell chassis and keyboard. The LCD was the replaced with one having the Microtouch digitizer, and an internal serial port was dedicated to talking to the MicroTouch controller, some sort of 8051 I think. So it dod not borrow any design from Fujitsu, but the very early NiMHD cells were from Fujitsu if I recall correctly. These were a disaster, a total disaster, very very unsafe cells. If your Fuji laptop has these old Ni-MHD cells, REMOVE then ASAP. What happens is this, the electrolyte is unstable in some portions of its charge cycle, and the battery control electronics accumulate error in this percentage of charge calculations (because the cell voltage does not change during charge/discharge very much). So once the calculated charge value is wrong, it begins to overcharge the cells slightly, and this causes the electrolyte to begin to form metal crystals (nickel if I recall correctly). These tiny, sharp crystals begin to perforate the semi-permiable ion membrane inside the cells. In this condition, the cells become very unstable. They can start fires if your charger is stupid enough, it does not take much once the cells are screwed up. My advice it to remove the cells from your battery pack if you suspect they are early Ni-MHD technology. Joe wrote: >Bob, > > Is this machine related to the pen top Fujitsu computer? I have one but haven't used it in a while. The dammed batteries are about worthless in it, they go dead in a few days even with the machine off. Anyway mine has two (IIRC) PCMCIA slots and runs the pen version of Win 3.1. It's actually a pretty neat machine, you can detach the keyboard completely and run everything via the pen. Also it has SRAM for memory so you can turn it off then turn it back on and everything is exactly the way that you left it. > > I THINK I remember reading that this machine would support PenPoint but I've never seen a copy of it. > > Joe > >At 06:41 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: > >>People actually remember Penpoint! >> >>I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. >> >>Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based >>portable PC called >>a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine >>with a paper-white >>mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, >>RF-linked 'pen' stylus with >>mouse-like buttons, etc. >> >>You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen >>Computing, a hacked >>up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was >>centered around the idea of >>an electronic book. >> >>I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to >>assist Go Inc. in their efforts >>to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down >>with a prototype and a stack >>of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the >>time, I found it easy to learn >>despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly >>unreadable handwriting style. >> >>But then things got ugly. >> >>The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of >>smart card, flash and SRAM >>cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or >>device name, so when you inserted >>a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. >> >>Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 >>PCMCIA slots, something Go >>had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature >>thought to be critical for a major customer >>who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the >>first place. >> >>Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I >>could then pop a second card into slot >>1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card >>and its icon disappeared, the identical >>icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that >>had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. >> >>Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE >>side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so >>there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical >>slot, as the GUI presentation depended >>on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, >>you were sure to delete files from >>the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media >>actually held your data. It was nasty. >> >>When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with >>me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. >>Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called >>into 'urgent' meetings. >> >>In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be >>fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would >>be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just >>could not fix, and >>without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer >>for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and >>retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, >>and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough >>to kill the complete VersaPad project. >> >>A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of >>Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. >>I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT >>flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile >>robots. >> >>If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the >>2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. >> >>Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer >>Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been >>a long time since I've used either one. >> >>Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! >> >>Patrick Rigney wrote: >> >>>>On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: >>>> >>>>>Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had >>>>> >>>>my EO 440... >>>> >>>>>:-( >>>>> >>>>I have one ;) >>>> >>>>Sellam Ismail Vintage >>>> >>>Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I >>>worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... >>>"went". --Patrick >>> >>> >>> >> >>Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\Penpoint.htm" >> > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 5 08:48:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <000201c26c1c$20ad2f20$177ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D9EEE58.8080502@tiac.net> Thats the machine! Its quite rare. Note the bizzare hard drives it uses, a very unusual form-factor! If its an early engineering sample, it will be in whats called Soft-mold plastic, with a shiny texture rather than the normal NEC finish (so the engineers would have a good excuse for dropping them). Are you interested in trying to get PenPoint onto these machines? Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Hey Bob...I've got 2 prototype ( work ing) NEC VersaPads (they > actually say NEC Autograph on them). It's was a slick machine, our > company SystemSoft was developing the PCMCIA for NEC. Not to be > critical 10 years later, but the NEC VersaPad a lousy implementation > of PCMCIA (hot swapping primarily), but it could have been our early > engineering samples. > > The other machine from that era that impressed me was the NCR 3125. > http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/ncr_3125/ > > Out of all the pen machine built in 1992-1994, I think the 3125 or the > AT&T Safari machine were the biggest sellers (not that pen machines > were big sellers). > > I never realized the VersaPad was never released....or that PenPoint > ran on it. I would love to try it though. > > After GO went under I really regret (now) throwing out the PenPoint > SDK, documentation, diskettes etc. > > I've an IBM pen computer that runs PenPoint and I really think it was > much better then Windows for Pen Computing by far. I've always wanted > a Momenta pen system - anyone have one? Momenta burned through $40M in > VC money...until the dotcom era, that was the biggest disaster that > VCs ever had. > > -Chandra > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Bob Shannon > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 6:41 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years > > People actually remember Penpoint! > > I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. > > Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based > portable PC called > a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine > with a paper-white > mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, > RF-linked 'pen' stylus with > mouse-like buttons, etc. > > You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen > Computing, a hacked > up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was > centered around the idea of > an electronic book. > > I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to > assist Go Inc. in their efforts > to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down > with a prototype and a stack > of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the > time, I found it easy to learn > despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly > unreadable handwriting style. > > But then things got ugly. > > The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of > smart card, flash and SRAM > cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or > device name, so when you inserted > a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. > > Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 > PCMCIA slots, something Go > had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature > thought to be critical for a major customer > who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in > the first place. > > Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. > I could then pop a second card into slot > 1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first > card and its icon disappeared, the identical > icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position > that had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. > > Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE > side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so > there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical > slot, as the GUI presentation depended > on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA > slots, you were sure to delete files from > the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media > actually held your data. It was nasty. > > When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with > me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. > Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were > called into 'urgent' meetings. > > In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be > fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed > would be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug > they just could not fix, and > without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's > customer for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint > application and retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. > The result of this, and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD > battery cells was enough to kill the complete VersaPad project. > > A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of > Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare > beasts. I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at > the MIT flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for > mobile robots. > > If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of > the 2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. > > Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer > Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has > been a long time since I've used either one. > > Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! > > Patrick Rigney wrote: > >>On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: >> >>>Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had >>> >>my EO 440... >> >>>:-( >>> >>I have one ;) >> >> >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage >> > > >Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I > >worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... > >"went". --Patrick > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 5 08:48:31 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <000201c26c1c$20ad2f20$177ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I've an IBM pen computer that runs PenPoint and I really think it was > much better then Windows for Pen Computing by far. I've always wanted a > Momenta pen system - anyone have one? Momenta burned through $40M in VC > money.until the dotcom era, that was the biggest disaster that VCs ever > had. I've got a Momenta as well. Very odd shaped wedge design. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 5 08:50:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> <001d01c26c41$be51c860$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3D9EEED9.1080208@tiac.net> Sure, I'll sell you a VersaPad! Philip Pemberton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > From:Bob Shannon > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:41 PM > > Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years > > Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a > tablet-based portable PC called > a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based > machine with a paper-white > mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, > RF-linked 'pen' stylus with > mouse-like buttons, etc. > > OMG... I remember seeing a tablet-based machine in a computer store a > few years ago, when 486 SX/25s were still "top of the range" as far as > laptops were concerned. A fast-talking salesman walked up to my Mum > and then proceeded to demo a rather nice tablet-based PC, followed by > a very nice Samsung NoteMaster laptop. I told my Mum to get the tablet > PC. She said "The laptop's better". Guess which one she ended up > buying... Yup. A Samsung NoteMaster 486S/25N. As proprietary as hell - > Samsung BIOS, proprietary hard drive, floppy drive, RAM, name it. And > now the 3.6V lithium battery is duff. And to top it all off, Tadiran > (original manufacturer) don't make another one like it. And I'm > trading her my Compaq Contura 420C (after I put Win3.1 and Word 6 on > it) for it. Why do I get the feeling I'm making a huge mistake? > > From what I remember, the tablet PC had a 486 CPU, 8MB RAM and a 7" or > so touch-sensitive screen you had to touch with a stylus. Oh, and it > ran Pen Windows. And it was black. And IIRC it had a pull-out keyboard. > > > > BTW, anyone got a tablet based PC they feel like parting with? I'd > love to get one simply to recapture some of the childhood I lost when > my Mum chose the laptop over the tablet PC. > > > > Later. > > -- > Phil. > philpem@dsl.pipex.com > http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ > From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 5 08:50:27 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <001d01c26c41$be51c860$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > BTW, anyone got a tablet based PC they feel like parting with? I'd love > to get one simply to recapture some of the childhood I lost when my Mum > chose the laptop over the tablet PC. Does that qualify as parental abuse? Maybe you can report your mother to the social service authorities to have her locked away as revenge ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Oct 5 08:51:01 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: Message-ID: <016201c26c76$73352a40$93000240@oemcomputer> I've got a PenCentra 130 with windows CE and it's a pretty cool tablet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years > On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Joe wrote: > > > Is this machine related to the pen top Fujitsu computer? I have one but > > haven't used it in a while. The dammed batteries are about worthless in > > it, they go dead in a few days even with the machine off. Anyway mine > > has two (IIRC) PCMCIA slots and runs the pen version of Win 3.1. It's > > actually a pretty neat machine, you can detach the keyboard completely > > and run everything via the pen. Also it has SRAM for memory so you can > > turn it off then turn it back on and everything is exactly the way that > > you left it. > > > > I THINK I remember reading that this machine would support PenPoint but > > I've never seen a copy of it. > > IIRC, Alan Cox is currently working on getting the Linux kernel to play > nice with one of those Fujitsu computers. Maybe once thats all polished > it'll be a little more fun than win3.1? > > -Toth > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Oct 5 08:59:01 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <3D9E1913.5080205@tiac.net> <001d01c26c41$be51c860$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> <3D9EEED9.1080208@tiac.net> Message-ID: <017a01c26c77$9553cb80$93000240@oemcomputer> Anyone else that has one of these for sale email me off list with your asking price. Thanks jrkeys@concentric.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:53 AM Subject: Re: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years > Sure, I'll sell you a VersaPad! > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From:Bob Shannon > > > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > > > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:41 PM > > > > Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years > > > > Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a > > tablet-based portable PC called > > a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based > > machine with a paper-white > > mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, > > RF-linked 'pen' stylus with > > mouse-like buttons, etc. > > > > OMG... I remember seeing a tablet-based machine in a computer store a > > few years ago, when 486 SX/25s were still "top of the range" as far as > > laptops were concerned. A fast-talking salesman walked up to my Mum > > and then proceeded to demo a rather nice tablet-based PC, followed by > > a very nice Samsung NoteMaster laptop. I told my Mum to get the tablet > > PC. She said "The laptop's better". Guess which one she ended up > > buying... Yup. A Samsung NoteMaster 486S/25N. As proprietary as hell - > > Samsung BIOS, proprietary hard drive, floppy drive, RAM, name it. And > > now the 3.6V lithium battery is duff. And to top it all off, Tadiran > > (original manufacturer) don't make another one like it. And I'm > > trading her my Compaq Contura 420C (after I put Win3.1 and Word 6 on > > it) for it. Why do I get the feeling I'm making a huge mistake? > > > > From what I remember, the tablet PC had a 486 CPU, 8MB RAM and a 7" or > > so touch-sensitive screen you had to touch with a stylus. Oh, and it > > ran Pen Windows. And it was black. And IIRC it had a pull-out keyboard. > > > > > > > > BTW, anyone got a tablet based PC they feel like parting with? I'd > > love to get one simply to recapture some of the childhood I lost when > > my Mum chose the laptop over the tablet PC. > > > > > > > > Later. > > > > -- > > Phil. > > philpem@dsl.pipex.com > > http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 5 09:11:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:46 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3D9EED98.3050603@tiac.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021005100851.19878a20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Thanks for the tip Bob. Mine does still have the original cells in it. Can they be replaced with standard NiMD cells or is the charging cycle wrong for them? Do you know if Fujitsu ever recalled or replaced the original cells? Joe At 09:48 AM 10/5/02 -0400, you wrote: >NEC VersaPad was based on a standard WinTel laptop design. > >They simply re-packaged it, eliminating the conventional clambshell >chassis and keyboard. >The LCD was the replaced with one having the Microtouch digitizer, and >an internal serial >port was dedicated to talking to the MicroTouch controller, some sort of >8051 I think. > >So it dod not borrow any design from Fujitsu, but the very early NiMHD >cells were from Fujitsu >if I recall correctly. These were a disaster, a total disaster, very >very unsafe cells. > >If your Fuji laptop has these old Ni-MHD cells, REMOVE then ASAP. > >What happens is this, the electrolyte is unstable in some portions of >its charge cycle, and the battery >control electronics accumulate error in this percentage of charge >calculations (because the cell voltage >does not change during charge/discharge very much). > >So once the calculated charge value is wrong, it begins to overcharge >the cells slightly, and this >causes the electrolyte to begin to form metal crystals (nickel if I >recall correctly). These tiny, sharp >crystals begin to perforate the semi-permiable ion membrane inside the >cells. > >In this condition, the cells become very unstable. They can start fires >if your charger is stupid enough, it >does not take much once the cells are screwed up. > >My advice it to remove the cells from your battery pack if you suspect >they are early Ni-MHD technology. > >Joe wrote: > >>Bob, >> >> Is this machine related to the pen top Fujitsu computer? I have one but haven't used it in a while. The dammed batteries are about worthless in it, they go dead in a few days even with the machine off. Anyway mine has two (IIRC) PCMCIA slots and runs the pen version of Win 3.1. It's actually a pretty neat machine, you can detach the keyboard completely and run everything via the pen. Also it has SRAM for memory so you can turn it off then turn it back on and everything is exactly the way that you left it. >> >> I THINK I remember reading that this machine would support PenPoint but I've never seen a copy of it. >> >> Joe >> >>At 06:41 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >> >>>People actually remember Penpoint! >>> >>>I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. >>> >>>Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based >>>portable PC called >>>a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine >>>with a paper-white >>>mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, >>>RF-linked 'pen' stylus with >>>mouse-like buttons, etc. >>> >>>You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen >>>Computing, a hacked >>>up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was >>>centered around the idea of >>>an electronic book. >>> >>>I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to >>>assist Go Inc. in their efforts >>>to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down >>>with a prototype and a stack >>>of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the >>>time, I found it easy to learn >>>despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly >>>unreadable handwriting style. >>> >>>But then things got ugly. >>> >>>The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of >>>smart card, flash and SRAM >>>cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or >>>device name, so when you inserted >>>a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. >>> >>>Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 >>>PCMCIA slots, something Go >>>had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature >>>thought to be critical for a major customer >>>who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the >>>first place. >>> >>>Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I >>>could then pop a second card into slot >>>1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card >>>and its icon disappeared, the identical >>>icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that >>>had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. >>> >>>Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE >>>side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so >>>there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical >>>slot, as the GUI presentation depended >>>on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, >>>you were sure to delete files from >>>the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media >>>actually held your data. It was nasty. >>> >>>When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with >>>me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. >>>Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called >>>into 'urgent' meetings. >>> >>>In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be >>>fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would >>>be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just >>>could not fix, and >>>without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer >>>for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and >>>retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, >>>and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough >>>to kill the complete VersaPad project. >>> >>>A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of >>>Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. >>>I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT >>>flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile >>>robots. >>> >>>If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the >>>2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. >>> >>>Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer >>>Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been >>>a long time since I've used either one. >>> >>>Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! >>> >>>Patrick Rigney wrote: >>> >>>>>On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had >>>>>> >>>>>my EO 440... >>>>> >>>>>>:-( >>>>>> >>>>>I have one ;) >>>>> >>>>>Sellam Ismail Vintage >>>>> >>>>Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I >>>>worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... >>>>"went". --Patrick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\Penpoint.htm" >>> >> >> >> > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 5 09:21:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3D9EF62C.2020908@tiac.net> NEC asked this sort of question, but apparently at some lower level, the OS did not know which slot held which bit of media. There was some level of software, I think called a MIL that performed hardware abstraction for the higher-level OS. Its possible that the MIL had no way to communicate this info up to the OS level, and any fix would make large changes to the way the OS talked to the MIL layer. It was pretty late in the Go game for that sort of change. NEC's reaction to this was to abruptly 'kill' the whole program, but I suspect that this had a lot to do with 'saving face' over the battery cell issues that also plauged the project. So perhaps this all didn't kill Go as a company, it sure left a bad taste in NEC's mouth where non-Microsoft operating systems were concerned. I know that people within NEC had big plans for non-windows portables back then. It took a very long time before NEC's portable products group was comfortable working on anything less than a conventional clamshell Windows box. Even the Windows CE based MobilePro program was kept at arms distance until it began to sell fairly well. But even then, it was not treated as a main-stream product line. Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > >>In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be >>fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would >>be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just >>could not fix, and without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and >>data-card, NEC's customer for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon >>the Penpoint application and retool for a Windows for Pen Computing >>application. The result of this, and some really major issues with early >>Ni-MHD battery cells was enough to kill the complete VersaPad project. >> > >Why not just label the virtual PCMCIA card (the "book" icon) with the slot >number? > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 5 09:32:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20021005100851.19878a20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D9EF8B5.5090403@tiac.net> Modern NI-MHD cells should work fine, as long as you get the correct mAH rating so the battery guage works properly. Also, try to fully charge and discharge the cells on each cycle, partial charge cycles will accumulate error much faster than any other activity. Often you can replace older NI-MHD cells with high quality Ni-CD cells, again matching the capacity. This is generally 'safer', although Ni-MHD cells ARE greatly superior to Ni-CD cells. Just don't try to mess around with Li-Ion cells or packs. These can really explode, bigtime! Joe wrote: > Thanks for the tip Bob. Mine does still have the original cells in it. Can they be replaced with standard NiMD cells or is the charging cycle wrong for them? > > Do you know if Fujitsu ever recalled or replaced the original cells? > > Joe > >At 09:48 AM 10/5/02 -0400, you wrote: > >>NEC VersaPad was based on a standard WinTel laptop design. >> >>They simply re-packaged it, eliminating the conventional clambshell >>chassis and keyboard. >>The LCD was the replaced with one having the Microtouch digitizer, and >>an internal serial >>port was dedicated to talking to the MicroTouch controller, some sort of >>8051 I think. >> >>So it dod not borrow any design from Fujitsu, but the very early NiMHD >>cells were from Fujitsu >>if I recall correctly. These were a disaster, a total disaster, very >>very unsafe cells. >> >>If your Fuji laptop has these old Ni-MHD cells, REMOVE then ASAP. >> >>What happens is this, the electrolyte is unstable in some portions of >>its charge cycle, and the battery >>control electronics accumulate error in this percentage of charge >>calculations (because the cell voltage >>does not change during charge/discharge very much). >> >>So once the calculated charge value is wrong, it begins to overcharge >>the cells slightly, and this >>causes the electrolyte to begin to form metal crystals (nickel if I >>recall correctly). These tiny, sharp >>crystals begin to perforate the semi-permiable ion membrane inside the >>cells. >> >>In this condition, the cells become very unstable. They can start fires >>if your charger is stupid enough, it >>does not take much once the cells are screwed up. >> >>My advice it to remove the cells from your battery pack if you suspect >>they are early Ni-MHD technology. >> >>Joe wrote: >> >>>Bob, >>> >>> Is this machine related to the pen top Fujitsu computer? I have one but haven't used it in a while. The dammed batteries are about worthless in it, they go dead in a few days even with the machine off. Anyway mine has two (IIRC) PCMCIA slots and runs the pen version of Win 3.1. It's actually a pretty neat machine, you can detach the keyboard completely and run everything via the pen. Also it has SRAM for memory so you can turn it off then turn it back on and everything is exactly the way that you left it. >>> >>> I THINK I remember reading that this machine would support PenPoint but I've never seen a copy of it. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>>At 06:41 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>>>People actually remember Penpoint! >>>> >>>>I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. >>>> >>>>Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based >>>>portable PC called >>>>a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine >>>>with a paper-white >>>>mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, >>>>RF-linked 'pen' stylus with >>>>mouse-like buttons, etc. >>>> >>>>You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen >>>>Computing, a hacked >>>>up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was >>>>centered around the idea of >>>>an electronic book. >>>> >>>>I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to >>>>assist Go Inc. in their efforts >>>>to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down >>>>with a prototype and a stack >>>>of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the >>>>time, I found it easy to learn >>>>despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly >>>>unreadable handwriting style. >>>> >>>>But then things got ugly. >>>> >>>>The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of >>>>smart card, flash and SRAM >>>>cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or >>>>device name, so when you inserted >>>>a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. >>>> >>>>Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 >>>>PCMCIA slots, something Go >>>>had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature >>>>thought to be critical for a major customer >>>>who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the >>>>first place. >>>> >>>>Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I >>>>could then pop a second card into slot >>>>1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card >>>>and its icon disappeared, the identical >>>>icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that >>>>had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. >>>> >>>>Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE >>>>side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so >>>>there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical >>>>slot, as the GUI presentation depended >>>>on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, >>>>you were sure to delete files from >>>>the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media >>>>actually held your data. It was nasty. >>>> >>>>When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with >>>>me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. >>>>Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called >>>>into 'urgent' meetings. >>>> >>>>In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be >>>>fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would >>>>be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just >>>>could not fix, and >>>>without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer >>>>for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and >>>>retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, >>>>and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough >>>>to kill the complete VersaPad project. >>>> >>>>A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of >>>>Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. >>>>I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT >>>>flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile >>>>robots. >>>> >>>>If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the >>>>2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. >>>> >>>>Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer >>>>Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been >>>>a long time since I've used either one. >>>> >>>>Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! >>>> >>>>Patrick Rigney wrote: >>>> >>>>>>On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had >>>>>>> >>>>>>my EO 440... >>>>>> >>>>>>>:-( >>>>>>> >>>>>>I have one ;) >>>>>> >>>>>>Sellam Ismail Vintage >>>>>> >>>>>Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. I >>>>>worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and then... >>>>>"went". --Patrick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Attachment Converted: "C:\EUDORA\Attach\Penpoint.htm" >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Oct 5 10:20:01 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years References: Message-ID: <001901c26c82$dc4123c0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Does that qualify as parental abuse? Maybe you can report your > mother to the social service authorities to have her locked away as > revenge ;) Nah... Not my style. I've probably had more fun with the Samsung laptop. Shame the b*dy hard drive is a stupid Samsung proprietary design - ?800 for a 700MB drive - I think not. I've just had to bodge in a Sonnenschein 3V6 Inorganic Lithium battery in place of the duff Tadiran CMOS battery. Lots of fun - two layers of Sellotape, a bit of solder and a burned finger later and I still don't know if it works. As for my Compaq Contura, I had to pull most of the casing to bits just to get to the battery holder... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From jwillis at arielusa.com Sat Oct 5 11:49:01 2002 From: jwillis at arielusa.com (John Willis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion Message-ID: <2DA7A129907A664E8C5DA8462AD4D94C2BB6C8@deathstar.ARIELNET.COM> I have in stock many many many 30 pin SIMMS From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Sat Oct 5 13:57:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete References: Message-ID: <3D9F3647.677A1C71@compsys.to> >Will Jennings wrote: > For what it's worth; RT-11 V4 seems to exist in both blue AND orange binder > versions! And yes, the V4 manuals in blue do indeed have "PDP-11" style > covers... Weird eh? Jerome Fine replies: Somewhere I seem to remember I have a set of V4.00 manuals without ANY binders. Should I save them or toss them? It is only about 18 inches of paper? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 5 14:27:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Any Altos fans out there? References: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20021005100851.19878a20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3D9EF8B5.5090403@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3D9F3DD0.3060508@tiac.net> I have an Altos Series 5-15, its a dual 5.25" floppy based Z80 system. It used to run MPM-II, and had always been a reliable little box. No front pannels or expansion slots, just a reliable 'appliance' computer from the pre-PC days. Bank-switched memory too, I forget how much RAM is in the thing. The floppy drives in their day were rather advanced, with about 720K of storage each. As long as you used high-quality media, they were rock solid. Recently I dusted off the old Altos, and after years of disuse I'd like to get it running again, but I've got two problems. First off, on reset the machine will seek track 0 on drive 0, and if that drive is already at track 0 it quickly selects drive 1 and attempts the same thing. The problem is that it never un-selects drive 1, so it does not even attempt to boot from a disk in drive 0. If I were to guess, I'd have to say the track 0 sensor in drive 1 is shot. Should be easy enough to test, but then I run into problem #2. I can't find the manuals for this box. They are here, somewhere. Hidden in some box guarded by oversized spiders probably. Eeek. I'll find them eventually. Looking at the Vintage links, I was supprized there are no Altos sites. I seem to recall Altos being a rather well respected name back then. They did make a pretty decent box in their day, and I'd thought they sold rather well. But they sure don't seem to turn up in any on-line collections. Can anyone tell me where I need to be looking on the floppy disk bus to find the track 0 signal? Is this a open collector signal that is shared for all drives on the bus, etc? Does anyone have a pointer to the general history of Altos? Whatever happend to them? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 5 15:34:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete In-Reply-To: <3D9F3647.677A1C71@compsys.to> References: Message-ID: >Jerome Fine replies: > >Somewhere I seem to remember I have a set of V4.00 manuals >without ANY binders. Should I save them or toss them? It is >only about 18 inches of paper? I'd say if you've got a set of V4 manuals that you don't want, offer them up to the list. I'm sure that someone here would like a copy (I've already got one and don't need another). Shipping shouldn't be that bad, or hard for a stack like that (definitly easier than if they were in binders). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Oct 5 15:54:01 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Any Altos fans out there? In-Reply-To: Bob Shannon's message of "Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:30:24 -0400" References: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20021005100851.19878a20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3D9EF8B5.5090403@tiac.net> <3D9F3DD0.3060508@tiac.net> Message-ID: <200210052045.g95KjfRT053373@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Bob Shannon wrote: > Does anyone have a pointer to the general history of Altos? Whatever > happend to them? Bought by Acer. -Frank McConnell From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Oct 5 18:21:01 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: SIPP to SIMM conversion In-Reply-To: References: <3D9E2EAA.4459.B502B65@localhost> Message-ID: <3D9F2DB2.5822.F34865F@localhost> SIMM sockets that would fit into the SIP ones, if they were low-profile enough, would be the best solution. This is for older GRID LTs and they are flush with the motherboard inserts, so desoldering sockets isn't an option. I did find one site that had an adaptor to convert SIP ram to SIMM but not the obverse. I'll take a look at the sources you mention. Lawrence > On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > Does anyone on the list know a source for the kits to change SIMMs to > > SIPPs. I believe you soldered the tips on. Or better yet a source for > > these hard to get 30 pin RAM chips. > > I've seen SIP modules made out of SIMMS with bits of wire soldered to the > tinned pads. Of course, it really wasn't a pretty modification. I've never > seen the pins available anywhere, but a company like Mouser Electronics or > Digikey might stock something suitable. > > If you are handy with desoldering, you could always retrofit a board with > SIMM sockets instead of SIP sockets. There might be SIMM sockets available > with pins that would fit into the SIP socket too. > > -Toth > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Sat Oct 5 20:49:00 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Any Altos fans out there? In-Reply-To: <200210052045.g95KjfRT053373@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20021004220753.0edf58aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20021005100851.19878a20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3D9EF8B5.5090403@tiac.net> <3D9F3DD0.3060508@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20021005214711.00d33628@pop1.epm.net.co> At 01:45 PM 10/5/02 -0700, you wrote: >Bob Shannon wrote: >> Does anyone have a pointer to the general history of Altos? Whatever >> happend to them? > >Bought by Acer. > >-Frank McConnell Yes. I recently saw some systems in a phone company that bore the ALTOS/Acer trade mark. I was surprised that Acer chose to continue using the ALTOS name for some systems. In 1986 or '87, the accounting system for the university where I was studying ran on an Altos under Xenix, if my memory serves me right. A friend and I managed to install a second hard drive in it for less than 1/3 of what the company doing the support wanted. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 22:03:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Any Altos fans out there? Message-ID: After their Xenix 8086 systems, they made 68k-based *NIX servers... I think they were making x86 processor *NIX servers when Acer bought them.. I have a 3068EP, which is a 20MHz 68020 machine, needs manuals and software, plus assorted case parts.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From foo at siconic.com Sun Oct 6 01:23:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Any Altos fans out there? In-Reply-To: <3D9F3DD0.3060508@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > Looking at the Vintage links, I was supprized there are no Altos sites. > I seem to recall Altos being a rather well > respected name back then. They did make a pretty decent box in their > day, and I'd thought they sold rather well. They are definitely plentiful out in the wild. I think the problem is that they are so damn boring for the most part that no collectors or hobbysists really thought to devote any time to a page honoring their service. Perhaps you should put one up? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sun Oct 6 01:26:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? Message-ID: So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard Erlacher? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Oct 6 02:17:01 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? References: Message-ID: <006301c26d08$87a1d090$073bcd18@D73KSM11> > So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard Erlacher? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival A Google search indicates that his Usenet posts, which were fairly regular for years, stopped on 7/31/02. -W From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 6 10:26:01 2002 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20021006152730.TJZP9131.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> On Thursday 03 October 2002 15:55, Eric Smith wrote: > > One needs to consult with a customs broker, and there are many in > > business on both sides of the border. > > For old equipment, the broker's fee will exceed the import duties you > could expect to pay. I've had people send me stuff from Canada, and > later received outrageous bills from customs brokers, usually for > around five times what I paid for the merchandise. As far as I'm > concerned, I have no established business relationship with these > customs brokers. I did not expect the sender to use such a broker, and > was not told that it would be done. So I have never paid them. I tried this approach with UPS. They sent me the bill after I'd already given the goods away. They sent a few threatening letters and then I got one from a collections agency. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Oct 6 10:32:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Attention 1802 fans... References: <3D97880A.7080805@tiac.net> <20020929221733.GF25966@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.2.32.20020929230002.00789524@pop1.epm.net.co> <3D985818.8030502@tiac.net> <3D988D0C.4030906@tiac.net> <00c501c269cc$e36224a0$073bcd18@D73KSM11> Message-ID: <3DA0584E.3040407@tiac.net> Wanye had asked if any pictures of the 1801 CPU were on-line. I have made some hi-res JPEG's of the board, but they are close to half a meg each, so I've not posted them on-line, but they can be emailed on request. But while searching through my documentation for the meaning of the 'SSTC' acronym, I found something... I have found a rare copy of the "RCA Solid State MICROSYSTEMS" manual, SSD-270. This is over 500 pages of detailed information on RCA's 1802 board-level products including schematic diagrams, address maps, jumper settings, timing diagrams, component placement charts, etc. Several people from the list have commented on the rarity of 1802 documentation, so I'll offer this book for sale. The condition is quite good, hardly used, but not 'mint'. No tares or missing pages, the binding is intact and all the data is perfectly readable. Note, this book covers 1802-based RCA Microboard products, it does not contain any 1801 information. Also, a note for Wayne Smith...This manual describes 1802 based CPU boards, but they all appear to be the 'full size' boards that resemble STD-bus boards, that than the much shorter 1802 CPU shown in Wanye's JPEGs. It does however describe the RCA industrial chassis, power supply, and backplane signal definitions. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 6 10:40:00 2002 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <815978286.20021002194732@subatomix.com> References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> <815978286.20021002194732@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20021006154152.UFFA8339.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> On Wednesday 02 October 2002 20:47, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Wednesday, October 2, 2002, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > > > > > 'cause when Windoze 95 becomes on topic, it just might not be fun > > > > anymore. > Would anyone object to adding an official 'cool factor clause' to the > 10-year rule? We already sorta have that now, where a newer computer > (e.g. mid-90s SGI MIPS) has sufficient cool factor that we're ok with > it. All we need is a concept of negative cool factor, so that some > computers (e.g. Packard Bell PC) might never be on-topic. I have a PB that I keep as a sample of bad design, along with the IBM Aptiva, and AST Bravo. From pat at purdueriots.com Sun Oct 6 10:54:00 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 Message-ID: Does anyone know where I could find a distribution of BSD 2.9 that I could install on my PDP-11/23. Also, will it work with just a 'TU58' (or possibly two) - I should hopefully have a working emulator by the end of the week - and 32kW of ram? I don't need it to do much - I'd just like to have something set up to play with a little. Thanks! Pat -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 6 10:58:01 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: School Auction Finds Message-ID: <00c401c26d51$69b36be0$87010240@oemcomputer> Went to a large school auction Saturday and got lots of stuff real cheap. There was hundreds of computers stuff at this auction. I got; Epson PX-8 missing keyboard cover and ac adapter. 2 - IBM EduQuest Fifty-cs desktop computers that work fine, first time I had seen these. I have several of the all-in-one units. IBM type 3194 controller. NEC MultiSync 6FGp 20" monitor for $1 and it works great. Apple IIe platinum case and 6 external 51/4 floppy drives. IBM Thinkpad 350c no charger but only cost $1 Compaq Contura 3/25c no charger but also was only $1 And I got about 15 P166 Compaq for less than $1 each along with one P266 Compaq, several IBM 486's desktop all for less than $1 each. There were some Dell's in the lot also. Also got a box full of game consoles that I have not checked yet but saw a Genesis 16-bit and NES on top. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 6 11:19:01 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: latest HP haul Message-ID: <000701c26d54$09b60740$0101a8c0@jay> Here's what came in my last acquisition of HP gear that I started to unpack today.... (2) HP 2113E cpu's in impeccably mint condition. They look refurbed (no dust at all). The have been tested and run diags perfectly. Each one has 512KW, DCPC, M.E.M., Mem Protect, and 2102E memory controllers One has loader roms: 264x terminal, 7970 magtape {YES!}, 79xx Disc, CS80 disc The other has loader roms: 264x terminal, 7970 magtape, 79xx Disc, and 7905/06/20/25 disc Here's the cards between the two... (2) 13037 disc subsystem interfaces (2) TBG (2) BACI 12966A (2) Line Printer 26099A (2) BUS I/O (5) GRD TRU IN/OUT and..... a 5060-6282 prototyping board! Other items in the racks... 13037D disc subsystem controller (this one is MINT!) 13037B disc subsystem controller 12979B I/O expansion chassis & PS (2) 7906D disc drives (both appear to be in extremely clean condition) (2) standard cream colored HP racks Much fun! Jay West From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Oct 6 11:23:00 2002 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: School Auction Finds In-Reply-To: <00c401c26d51$69b36be0$87010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021006122315.00b4af58@pop-server> At 10:59 AM 10/6/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Also got a box full of game consoles that I have not checked yet but saw a >Genesis 16-bit and NES on top. I have been looking for a top loading NES. Did you get one of those? "A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person." -Mignon McLaughlin From pietstan at rogers.com Sun Oct 6 11:52:00 2002 From: pietstan at rogers.com (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards Message-ID: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> I spotted a few cards at the local dismantlers the other day, and I wonder what they are: - dual-height (2 card edge fingers) with a sticker reading " MTI Model MSV05B" and a 50-pin header at the outside edge of the card - quaad-height with a silk-screened Dilog logo and DQ130 model number and 2 50-pin headers at teh ccard edge. What are these?? They had several of each of these, condition unknown (they were already pulled out of the machines), which I asked them to put away for me for a few days. Does anybody need any? One machine I also spotted there was labelled VaxStation II / GPX in a BA123 enclosure. I"m not interested in the machine, but if anyone wants cards from it, let me know.... From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 6 12:00:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT 286 References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20021006152730.TJZP9131.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Message-ID: <008201c26d59$e88bfb00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I just picked up one of these precision ivory bricks this weekend (free at my village scrap center). Pretty intricate design, yet solid. This unit will remain safe in my stores for years. Anybody know if there's a BIOS boot menu available on it? John A. From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 6 12:03:10 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <013001c26a6f$2fcd1a00$0300a8c0@geoff> <815978286.20021002194732@subatomix.com> <20021006154152.UFFA8339.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Message-ID: <008301c26d5a$140ee580$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I have a PB that I keep as a sample of bad design, > along with the IBM Aptiva, and AST Bravo. Could you expound a bit on its pitfalls? I picked up a otherwise nice looking PB P75 this weekend for free. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 6 12:27:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> Message-ID: >I spotted a few cards at the local dismantlers the other day, and I >wonder what they are: > - dual-height (2 card edge fingers) with a sticker reading " MTI Model >MSV05B" and a 50-pin header at the outside edge of the card I think it's a tape controller for drives with a Pertec interface? At least that's what a "MSV05" appears to be. Or does this by any chance look like the following board ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi/qdt.jpg > - quad-height with a silk-screened Dilog logo and DQ130 model number >and 2 50-pin headers at teh ccard edge. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 6 12:32:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I could find a distribution of BSD 2.9 that I could >install on my PDP-11/23. Also, will it work with just a 'TU58' (or >possibly two) - I should hopefully have a working emulator by the end of >the week - and 32kW of ram? I don't need it to do much - I'd just like to >have something set up to play with a little. I've links on my page to PUPS, they're who host the UNIX distro's. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html You're going to need more than a TU58 and 32Kw RAM. I don't remember how much RAM, but, IIRC, you'll need at least 1-2 RL02 drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at purdueriots.com Sun Oct 6 12:50:01 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I spotted a few cards at the local dismantlers the other day, and I > >wonder what they are: > > - dual-height (2 card edge fingers) with a sticker reading " MTI Model > >MSV05B" and a 50-pin header at the outside edge of the card > > I think it's a tape controller for drives with a Pertec interface? At > least that's what a "MSV05" appears to be. Or does this by any chance look > like the following board ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi/qdt.jpg If there's only a single 50pin header, I doubt it. Pertec uses a pair of 50pin headers. > > - quad-height with a silk-screened Dilog logo and DQ130 model number > >and 2 50-pin headers at teh ccard edge. > > > >From the field Guide: > DQ130 Q Dilog DU120 tape controller. Emulates TM11. > 4 Drives. Pertec I/O I'd be interested in one of these... Now I just need to find myself another 9track tape drive (working, this time). I'll contact you offlist. > >One machine I also spotted there was labelled VaxStation II / GPX in a > >BA123 enclosure. I"m not interested in the machine, but if anyone wants > >cards from it, let me know.... Why don't you post a list of the cards in the machine, if you can get back to it before they want it 'gone away'. -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Oct 6 13:05:01 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT 286 References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20021006152730.TJZP9131.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> <008201c26d59$e88bfb00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004201c26d63$27795c50$80469280@george> I *think* I gve one of these (w/ dock) to Ethan Dicks. Keyboard lifts out, with a battery in the center under it? Don't know much about it, but it came with win3.11 installed, and a 3270 emulator card in the dock. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 1:00 PM Subject: Compaq SLT 286 > I just picked up one of these precision ivory bricks this > weekend (free at my village scrap center). Pretty intricate > design, yet solid. This unit will remain safe in my stores > for years. > Anybody know if there's a BIOS boot menu available on it? > > John A. From classiccmp at dobyns.com Sun Oct 6 14:05:09 2002 From: classiccmp at dobyns.com (Barry A. Dobyns) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks References: <525F19E608DFD311A5E500902733E7CA445C6C@COOKSONPEIRCE01> Message-ID: <00bd01c26d6b$80027c50$a103fea9@Moltres> Apparently, because I mention Altos in a few places on my website, I got this request. I just saw some bits about Altos pass recently - someone has to have a live one still in captivity. Mine are all in need of dustbunny removal and more. Please reply to the email below, not to me. Thanks, -barry --- Barry Dobyns, barry@dobyns.com, http://www.dobyns.com/barry/museum/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce W. Miller" To: "Barry A Dobyns" Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:25 AM Subject: Help needed We had an old Altos 3068 (running a 68010 chip I belive) that died. We are in need of transferring some data from the floppys written on that machine to our new server. These were written using the IBM format. Do you have any ideas on what we could try? Thanks, Bruce From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 6 14:43:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33038.64.169.63.74.1033933446.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone know where I could find a distribution of BSD 2.9 that I > could install on my PDP-11/23. Also, will it work with just a 'TU58' > (or possibly two) - I should hopefully have a working emulator by the > end of the week - and 32kW of ram? I don't need it to do much - I'd > just like to have something set up to play with a little. There's no way you're going to be able to run BSD 2.x with only 64kb of RAM, you need about four times that! I'm not sure how much disk is required, but it will be measured in megabytes, so TU58s won't be sufficient. 5th or 6th edition would be more practical on this system, though you'd probably have to write a TU58 driver. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 6 14:52:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: <33038.64.169.63.74.1033933446.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: >5th or 6th edition would be more practical on this system, though you'd >probably have to write a TU58 driver. > >Eric I thought 5th & 6th were limited to Unibus systems.... For that matter, will 7th even run on a Q-Bus system? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 6 14:54:01 2002 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <008301c26d5a$140ee580$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200210022327.g92NRWB11843@shell1.aracnet.com> <20021006154152.UFFA8339.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> <008301c26d5a$140ee580$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20021006195435.VQTH28320.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> On Sunday 06 October 2002 13:01, John Allain wrote: > > I have a PB that I keep as a sample of bad design, > > along with the IBM Aptiva, and AST Bravo. > > Could you expound a bit on its pitfalls? > I picked up a otherwise nice looking PB P75 this > weekend for free. One of the first machines I had to work on was a PB. They had shipped it without connecting the serial ports to the back of the case. Most of that shipment was returned with in a week. My complaints with it are the daughter board and the layout of the insides, it's very difficult to add an drive to the machine, or change the one in it. The aptiva has similar problems along with the Mwave modem/sound-card combo. The Bravo used daughter boards for the soldered on CPU, and a few of the other add-ons as well as a none standard motherboard. I view these machines as single use disposable machines. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 6 14:55:39 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> References: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <33049.64.169.63.74.1033934113.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Stan Pietkiewicz wrote: > I spotted a few cards at the local dismantlers the other day, and I > wonder what they are: > - dual-height (2 card edge fingers) with a sticker reading " MTI Model > MSV05B" and a 50-pin header at the outside edge of the card > - quaad-height with a silk-screened Dilog logo and DQ130 model number > and 2 50-pin headers at teh ccard edge. They're nine-track tape controllers (Pertec interface). Might be worth saving if they'll sell them cheap. > One machine I also spotted there was labelled VaxStation II / GPX in a > BA123 enclosure. I"m not interested in the machine, but if anyone wants > cards from it, let me know.... Hard to say without knowing what cards are in it. If it's just a stock configuration, it's not too exciting, although I wouldn't mind having a spare VCB02 card set. Could contain interesting third-party stuff, though. The BA123 is a nice enclosure, and I wouldn't mind having another, especially if it's in good condition, but it's probably not worth shipping. Where's the stuff located? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 6 15:37:01 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33100.64.169.63.74.1033936700.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > I thought 5th & 6th were limited to Unibus systems.... For that matter, > will 7th even run on a Q-Bus system? If you have under 256KB of memory, and only I/O devices equivalent to the corresponding Unibus devices, it should be possible to get them working. To software, an 11/23 with 256KB of memory is not that much different than an 11/40 with KT11. I remember hearing of someone running 6th edition on an 11/23, but I don't recall who it was, or whether modifications were required. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 6 16:20:01 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: School Auction Finds References: <5.1.1.6.2.20021006122315.00b4af58@pop-server> Message-ID: <003901c26d7e$555a18b0$c8010240@oemcomputer> Yes, and it looks like it has 2 controllers and ac adapter with it. Have not pulled it to test yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 11:23 AM Subject: Re: School Auction Finds > At 10:59 AM 10/6/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >Also got a box full of game consoles that I have not checked yet but saw a > >Genesis 16-bit and NES on top. > > I have been looking for a top loading NES. > > Did you get one of those? > > > "A successful marriage requires falling in love > many times, always with the same person." > -Mignon McLaughlin > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 6 16:27:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: hp items found today Message-ID: <004301c26d7f$500404b0$c8010240@oemcomputer> Went to unload the van at the warehouse and stopped at a couple of stores and found these hp items: hp 82162A Thermal Printer with one roll of paper. hp 82169A HP-IL/HP-IB Interface unit. A plastic bag hanging on the junk rack with a hp ac adapter 82059D; hp 82160A HP-IL module; and three different length hp cables for the above units. Also picked up a power supply for the Zenith Supersport 286 notebook. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 6 16:45:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: <00bd01c26d6b$80027c50$a103fea9@Moltres> Message-ID: > We had an old Altos 3068 (running a 68010 chip I belive) that died. We are > in need of transferring some data > from the floppys written on that machine to our new server. These were > written using the IBM format. > Do you have any ideas on what we could try? > Please reply to the email below, not to me. I just don't have the strength and energy right now to correspond with somebody until they identify the disk diameter, density, and operating system more explicitly and specifically than "the IBM format". Perhaps somebody else here has enough familiarity with his model of computer to provide some of the information that he failed to. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 17:57:01 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: HP 2644A "Moldy CRT" Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021006225844.21498.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I have successfully solved the HP2644A "Moldy CRT" problem. I wanted to report on this because several people emailed me mentioning that this strange format (wide) CRT was used in a lot of 70's-early 80's HP equipment. The only examples I found of this type of CRT in use on the 'net also have this problem. To recap, the silicone between the front anti-glare shield and CRT gets mold creeping in from all sides, making the CRT ugly and/or hard to read. The very rare replacments, made with an acrylic shield, cost $225 plus shipping. In a nutshell, I used a nichrome wire, an old AT power supply, and some homemade handles along with a mounting box to contain (and I do mean "contain") the CRT in removing the front glare shield. After silicone cleanup and removal with a razor blade scraper and acetone, I reattached the glare shield (but only at the edges) with optical grade (fish tank) RTV. Obviously, this takes some work and nerve to do. I'd put up instructions on exactly how to do it, but I'm afraid of liability issues! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 6 18:38:00 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: School Auction Finds In-Reply-To: <00c401c26d51$69b36be0$87010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Keys wrote: > Went to a large school auction Saturday and got lots of stuff real cheap. > There was hundreds of computers stuff at this auction. I got; > > Epson PX-8 missing keyboard cover and ac adapter. That should be little problem. It is a 6VDC 600MA wall wart with a coax connector where the shell is plus. - don > 2 - IBM EduQuest Fifty-cs desktop computers that work fine, first time I had > seen these. I have several of the all-in-one units. > > IBM type 3194 controller. > > NEC MultiSync 6FGp 20" monitor for $1 and it works great. > > Apple IIe platinum case and 6 external 51/4 floppy drives. > > IBM Thinkpad 350c no charger but only cost $1 > > Compaq Contura 3/25c no charger but also was only $1 > > And I got about 15 P166 Compaq for less than $1 each along with one P266 > Compaq, several IBM 486's desktop all for less than $1 each. There were some > Dell's in the lot also. > > Also got a box full of game consoles that I have not checked yet but saw a > Genesis 16-bit and NES on top. > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 6 19:47:00 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:47 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: BSD 2.9" (Oct 6, 12:52) References: Message-ID: <10210070148.ZM26089@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 6, 12:52, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >5th or 6th edition would be more practical on this system, though you'd > >probably have to write a TU58 driver. > > > >Eric > > I thought 5th & 6th were limited to Unibus systems.... For that matter, > will 7th even run on a Q-Bus system? 7th Edition certainly runs on QBus. That's what one of my 11/23's is running, and it was a development machine for Heriot-Watt University, when they were the UK distribution centre. It has 256KB RAM and two RL02's on an RLV11 controller. With a small tweak, 7th Edition will also run on an 11/73. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 6 19:49:18 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: Stan Pietkiewicz "Mystery QBus cards" (Oct 6, 12:52) References: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <10210070150.ZM26093@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 6, 12:52, Stan Pietkiewicz wrote: > I spotted a few cards at the local dismantlers the other day, and I > wonder what they are: > - dual-height (2 card edge fingers) with a sticker reading " MTI Model > MSV05B" and a 50-pin header at the outside edge of the card > - quaad-height with a silk-screened Dilog logo and DQ130 model number > and 2 50-pin headers at teh ccard edge. DQ130 is a Dilog controller providing a Pertec 2x50-way interface for a tape drive. I guess the other is a QIC-02 or similar interface. I always get the QIC numbers confused. Which are the interface descriptions and which are the tape formats? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 6 19:53:00 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > We had an old Altos 3068 (running a 68010 chip I belive) that died. We are > > in need of transferring some data > > from the floppys written on that machine to our new server. These were > > written using the IBM format. > > Do you have any ideas on what we could try? > > > Please reply to the email below, not to me. > > I just don't have the strength and energy right now to correspond with > somebody until they identify the disk diameter, density, and operating > system more explicitly and specifically than "the IBM format". > > Perhaps somebody else here has enough familiarity with his model of > computer to provide some of the information that he failed to. Fred, several sites that I dug up via google show the mass storage of the machine to be 5.25" 1.2MB floppy and 20MB hard disk. Sounds like it used 512 byte sectors in Unix form. - don > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > > From jss at subatomix.com Sun Oct 6 20:13:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: New Acquisition Message-ID: <943396774.20021006201100@subatomix.com> A listmember and I met today, in a city in the middle of the USA, to exchange some hardware. If you cctech-ers are wondering why you haven't got list mail in several days, well, now you know the rest of the story. :-) He got a Stardent deskside that I originally rescued from a Austin, Texas auction block. He also got a complete Xerox 8010 of his that I had transported and stored for him from elsewhere in the country. I got a nearly-complete Symbolics 3650 system and a DEC Computer Lab. I've always thought that LISP was an entertaining language, and that a LISP machine would be equally entertaining (maybe bewildering). Now maybe I'll be able to find out. Oh gods, that thing was heavy! But at least it came with a very cool (albeit later-model) space cadet keyboard, like the one pictured here: http://www.abstractscience.freeserve.co.uk/symbolics/photos/IO/index.html -- Jeffrey Sharp From patrick at evocative.com Sun Oct 6 20:37:01 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So were you around to observe all the Microsoft trickery and shenanigans > that led to them basically stealing PenPoint from under your noses? Sellam, I never saw it that way. Microsoft has yet to produce anything nearly as revolutionary as PenPoint. If they had the keys, they didn't use them. Actually, Apple's Newton seemed to get more benefit from the demise of Go than Microsoft... a lot of the really top-notch handwriting people ended up going to work on the Newton. Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? And if it's you, Sellam, then you need to give it up... both an Eo 440 and a Newton... that's a lot of karma! :-) > Jerry Kaplan's book _Startup_ was a great read. But from what I heard, > the VCs basically considered Jerry a boob after the whole Go fiasco. Jerry founded Onsale, and was pretty much on the cutting edge of web-based auctioning. I think he's probably done well enough that he doesn't need to worry about what VCs think, which is a healthy thing for an entrepreneur. IMHO, the success of your business is directly related to how _you_ feel about it--the vision you build and the tenacity with which you stick by it to make it a reality--not how a VC feels about it. Jerry always seemed to stay true to his vision, and people were excited to work with him. That's not the mark of a boob in my book. Patrick From foo at siconic.com Sun Oct 6 21:22:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? And if it's you, > Sellam, then you need to give it up... both an Eo 440 and a Newton... that's > a lot of karma! :-) Newtons are relatively easy to find (certainly easier than an EO 440). Yes, I also have a Newton. But it was very hard earned karma, so please cut me some slack :) > Jerry founded Onsale, and was pretty much on the cutting edge of web-based > auctioning. I think he's probably done well enough that he doesn't need to > worry about what VCs think, which is a healthy thing for an entrepreneur. > IMHO, the success of your business is directly related to how _you_ feel > about it--the vision you build and the tenacity with which you stick by it > to make it a reality--not how a VC feels about it. Jerry always seemed to > stay true to his vision, and people were excited to work with him. That's > not the mark of a boob in my book. Me either, I was just reporting what I heard from an "insider". It was a very good story at any rate. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Oct 6 21:32:01 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 working Message-ID: Yesterday (and into the night), I powered up one of the two 11/44 machines rescued from San Diego. Did the usual thing of taking out the cards, documenting cables, cleaning, dusting, and then turning things up slow and watching voltages - no worries, the systaem came up and was subsequently reassembled in it's as-acquired config. It boots from two Micropolis 51/4" half-height drives sitting in the card bay of a card-less 11/23 chassis... which has been re-badged by Centaur Software. The front panel switches control write-protect, now. I don't have models right now, since I didn't work on that device yet. But they connect to a Dilog DU686 controller card - a quad-height card with one common 34-pin ribbon and individual 20-pin ribbons going to each (of 2 drives). This is... MFM, no? the original owner called them SCSI but somehow I think not.... Anybody have Doc on this Dilog card? The machine currently runs RSX-11M V4.2 G Build 58, or so it says. File creations run from 1980 to 1997, when the machine was shut down. The physical devices are mostly from '79 to '83. It has Fortran, Basic, and Oregon Pascal V2 installed. There is an RL02 system, working nicely, and couple of multi-line EIA muxes, one DEC (M7819) DZ11 and a Ditronics 16-line EIA mux. There is also a Digital Pathways SLC-1 real-time clock/calendar that sits in the Console line and responds to certain interrogatories from the System... fairly funky, IMHO. It came with printsets for all major subsystems, and the Blue Wall, and about 20 RL02 packs, most of which are blank. If everything goes as planned, I will bring this machine to VCF5.0 and let it be Played With. And, looking back into the Files, it was Bill Bradford who first brought this machine to the attention of Chris Kennedy, who referred it to me, and voila! here it is warming my (pleasantly) chilly garage while we wait to see if Autumn is going to actually stay for a while. It was pushing 90 here this afternoon... wierd! Should be fixing to snow.... So - now to wake up the Second System. Since this was a mission-critical machine, there are actually two complete identically-configured 11/44a and disk subsystems. The RL02 is shared by changing cables to the machine in use, and the TTY lines are all hooked up to a bank of DPDT mini switches (also by Centaurus Software) so that, if one system crashes, the other can be cut over by changing one connector and flipping the switches. Anyway - not a particularly 'rare' or 'significant' system, but certainly fun to mess around with. It certainly gets stares from my nieghbors. One of the local kids looked in while it was running this evening and asked "what's *that* thing?". I told him it was a computer. "No Way!!" Cheers John From pietstan at rogers.com Sun Oct 6 21:43:00 2002 From: pietstan at rogers.com (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards References: Message-ID: <3DA0F49B.7040705@rogers.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: <> >>>One machine I also spotted there was labelled VaxStation II / GPX in a >>>BA123 enclosure. I"m not interested in the machine, but if anyone wants >>>cards from it, let me know.... >>> > > Why don't you post a list of the cards in the machine, if you can get back > to it before they want it 'gone away'. > If I can get back there before they pull it apart, I will... Silly me, I forgot to make a list of what was in it when I saw it... From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 23:02:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007040341.74712.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I've links on my page to PUPS, they're who host the UNIX distro's. > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html > > You're going to need more than a TU58 and 32Kw RAM. I don't remember how > much RAM, but, IIRC, you'll need at least 1-2 RL02 drives. I've installed 2.9BSD onto a real (not emulated) PDP-11, an 11/24 w/1MB of RAM, RL11, 2 x RL02 and a 9-track drive hung off of a Dilog tape controller (this was long ago, long before PUPS). My recollection is that the primary distro fits on a single RL02; you'll need a second one for the source archives (to remake the kernel). It runs in 256K, but that doesn't leave lots of RAM for user processes. ISTR that I could run rogue, but not dungeon (an older version of Bob Supnik's FORTRAN port, not 3.2A). I bought a real KT24 and a couple extra megs of RAM (from Terry Kennedy, about $500 c. 1988, ISTR) to run 2.9BSD comfortably. The real problem I ran into was disk space. 4 RL02s just wasn't enough space to really have fun. If I would've been willing to drop another grand, I could have had a Unibus SMD disk controller and a decent sized (capacity, not weight) SMD disk. It's a good UNIX to play with. Completely recognizable by today's standards. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 6 23:33:01 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 working In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, John Lawson wrote: > > Yesterday (and into the night), I powered up one of the two 11/44 > machines rescued from San Diego. Did the usual thing of taking out the > cards, documenting cables, cleaning, dusting, and then turning things up > slow and watching voltages - no worries, the systaem came up and was > subsequently reassembled in it's as-acquired config. > > It boots from two Micropolis 51/4" half-height drives sitting in the > card bay of a card-less 11/23 chassis... which has been re-badged by > Centaur Software. The front panel switches control write-protect, now. > I don't have models right now, since I didn't work on that device yet. > But they connect to a Dilog DU686 controller card - a quad-height card > with one common 34-pin ribbon and individual 20-pin ribbons going to each > (of 2 drives). This is... MFM, no? the original owner called them SCSI > but somehow I think not.... Anybody have Doc on this Dilog card? Certainly not SCSI, but are either ST506/411 (what you called MFM) or ESDI. Check the controller capabilities or the interface of the drives before you swap in a different drive that "looks the same". The connectioons are NOT the same. - don > The machine currently runs RSX-11M V4.2 G Build 58, or so it says. File > creations run from 1980 to 1997, when the machine was shut down. The > physical devices are mostly from '79 to '83. > > It has Fortran, Basic, and Oregon Pascal V2 installed. > > There is an RL02 system, working nicely, and couple of multi-line EIA > muxes, one DEC (M7819) DZ11 and a Ditronics 16-line EIA mux. > > There is also a Digital Pathways SLC-1 real-time clock/calendar that > sits in the Console line and responds to certain interrogatories from the > System... fairly funky, IMHO. > > It came with printsets for all major subsystems, and the Blue Wall, and > about 20 RL02 packs, most of which are blank. > > > If everything goes as planned, I will bring this machine to VCF5.0 and > let it be Played With. > > > And, looking back into the Files, it was Bill Bradford who first brought > this machine to the attention of Chris Kennedy, who referred it to me, and > voila! here it is warming my (pleasantly) chilly garage while we wait to > see if Autumn is going to actually stay for a while. It was pushing 90 > here this afternoon... wierd! Should be fixing to snow.... > > > So - now to wake up the Second System. Since this was a > mission-critical machine, there are actually two complete > identically-configured 11/44a and disk subsystems. The RL02 is shared by > changing cables to the machine in use, and the TTY lines are all hooked up > to a bank of DPDT mini switches (also by Centaurus Software) so that, if > one system crashes, the other can be cut over by changing one connector > and flipping the switches. > > > Anyway - not a particularly 'rare' or 'significant' system, but > certainly fun to mess around with. It certainly gets stares from my > nieghbors. One of the local kids looked in while it was running this > evening and asked "what's *that* thing?". I told him it was a computer. > > "No Way!!" > > > Cheers > > John > > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 6 23:38:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks Message-ID: should be 5.25", I think 1.44MB, and UNIX. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 7 00:05:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never seen a high density Altos diskette. But that doesn't mean there there aren't any; there is a LOT that I've never seen. I've seen a lot of "720K" 5.25" Altos diskettes. Mostly Altos MP/M or CP/M, some Altos Unix, and one Altos diskette that was a CP/M (MP/M) directory structure, but with Motorola (MSB first) byte order. But the source of that diskette couldn't tell me anything more about the machine than "really old" and "ADM 3A". While it COULD be CP/M68K, it was more likely the result of a faulty data conversion program. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From jss at subatomix.com Mon Oct 7 00:19:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1918158780.20021007001702@subatomix.com> On Sunday, October 6, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard Erlacher? As far as his list membership is concerned... Some time ago, his email account began to spam the list with harmful attachments. I put him into moderated mode and demanded that he fix the problem. He did not, so I removed him from the list. I don't remember when, why, or how they stopped, but it's been a while since I saw anything from him (always a harmful-attachment mail) in the non-subscrber post queue. -- Jeffrey Sharp From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 01:27:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks Message-ID: It is possible that it is 760K, I haven't looked up the model number on the floppy drive in my 3068EP yet, I was just guessing due to the lateness of the machine.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 01:35:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: I have a Newton.. also the complete, never-used programming kit.. And a spare LCD should anyone need one... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 01:41:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards Message-ID: MTI MSV05 = emulates DEC TSV05.. I have the manual for it... I think its a a QIC controller, not sure off the top of my head.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 01:42:39 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards Message-ID: MTI MSV05 = emulates DEC TSV05.. I have the manual for it... I think its a a QIC controller, not sure off the top of my head.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 7 01:55:00 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021006235145.031655e0@mail.zipcon.net> which model of newton? At 12:36 AM 10/7/02 -0600, you wrote: >I have a Newton.. also the complete, never-used programming kit.. And a >spare LCD should anyone need one... > >Will J > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 7 02:25:00 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 working In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: PDP 11/44 working" (Oct 6, 21:34) References: Message-ID: <10210070757.ZM26268@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 6, 21:34, Don Maslin wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, John Lawson wrote: > > It boots from two Micropolis 51/4" half-height drives sitting in the > > card bay of a card-less 11/23 chassis... which has been re-badged by > > Centaur Software. The front panel switches control write-protect, now. > > I don't have models right now, since I didn't work on that device yet. > > But they connect to a Dilog DU686 controller card - a quad-height card > > with one common 34-pin ribbon and individual 20-pin ribbons going to each > > (of 2 drives). This is... MFM, no? the original owner called them SCSI > > but somehow I think not.... Anybody have Doc on this Dilog card? > > Certainly not SCSI, but are either ST506/411 (what you called MFM) or > ESDI. Check the controller capabilities or the interface of the drives > before you swap in a different drive that "looks the same". The > connectioons are NOT the same. DQ686 is an ESDI controller, with MSCP protocol. Don's right, do not connect ST506/412 drives to it or you'll release soe magic smoke! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 7 02:30:01 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com>; from pietstan@rogers.com on Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 18:52:00 CEST References: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20021007092643.O1254@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.10.06 18:52 Stan Pietkiewicz wrote: > - dual-height (2 card edge fingers) with a sticker reading " MTI > Model MSV05B" and a 50-pin header at the outside edge of the card Speculation: Floppy controler? I have a similar card from MTI and it is a RX02 emulating floppy controler with Shugart SA800 interface. > - quaad-height with a silk-screened Dilog logo and DQ130 model > number and 2 50-pin headers at teh ccard edge. Megans pdp11-field-guide.txt says: DQ130 Q Dilog DU120 tape controller. Emulates TM11. 4 Drives. Pertec I/O -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 7 02:30:42 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: ; from pat@purdueriots.com on Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 17:56:51 CEST References: Message-ID: <20021007090725.M1254@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.10.06 17:56 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone know where I could find a distribution of BSD 2.9 that I > could install on my PDP-11/23. http://www.tuhs.org/ http://www.pups.org/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 7 04:06:00 2002 From: jkunz at maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: <10210070150.ZM26093@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> <10210070150.ZM26093@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20021007091633.GA30912@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 12:50:54AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I always get the QIC numbers confused. Which are the interface > descriptions and which are the tape formats? http://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html Most common on "real" computers are: QIC-02 1/4-Inch Cartridge Tape Drive Intelligent Interface QIC-36 1/4-Inch Cartridge Tape Drive Basic Interface -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cbajpai at attbi.com Mon Oct 7 06:52:01 2002 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: <1918158780.20021007001702@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <000501c26df8$104d17c0$177ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Should someone check on him to see if everything is OK? A couple of years ago I was exchanging email with a guy down in Texas about his TRS-80 Model 1 which he wanted to give way. Didn't hear from in a while, so I sent an "what's up" message. Got a message some time later from his daughter that he passed away shortly after that message. Strangely enough he packaged up the computer before he passed away and his daughter was kind enough to send it. Weird. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Sharp Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:17 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Richard Erlacher? On Sunday, October 6, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard Erlacher? As far as his list membership is concerned... Some time ago, his email account began to spam the list with harmful attachments. I put him into moderated mode and demanded that he fix the problem. He did not, so I removed him from the list. I don't remember when, why, or how they stopped, but it's been a while since I saw anything from him (always a harmful-attachment mail) in the non-subscrber post queue. -- Jeffrey Sharp From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 7 07:24:01 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: New Acquisition References: <943396774.20021006201100@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <002d01c26dfc$6e499f20$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> You were in the middle of the USA and didn't stop by here? I'm hurt Jeff! :) Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Sharp" To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: New Acquisition > A listmember and I met today, in a city in the middle of the USA, to > exchange some hardware. If you cctech-ers are wondering why you haven't got > list mail in several days, well, now you know the rest of the story. :-) > > He got a Stardent deskside that I originally rescued from a Austin, Texas > auction block. He also got a complete Xerox 8010 of his that I had > transported and stored for him from elsewhere in the country. > > I got a nearly-complete Symbolics 3650 system and a DEC Computer Lab. I've > always thought that LISP was an entertaining language, and that a LISP > machine would be equally entertaining (maybe bewildering). Now maybe I'll be > able to find out. Oh gods, that thing was heavy! But at least it came with a > very cool (albeit later-model) space cadet keyboard, like the one pictured > here: > > http://www.abstractscience.freeserve.co.uk/symbolics/photos/IO/index.html > > -- > Jeffrey Sharp > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 7 07:31:00 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: <1918158780.20021007001702@subatomix.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007072229.0272a4d8@pc> At 12:17 AM 10/7/2002 -0500, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: >On Sunday, October 6, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> So, does anyone know what ever happend to Richard Erlacher? > >As far as his list membership is concerned... Some time ago, his email >account began to spam the list with harmful attachments. A quick Google of "richard erlacher death notices" turned up nothing. :-) - John From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Oct 7 08:08:00 2002 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific's Rescued...need help/info! In-Reply-To: <000701c26d54$09b60740$0101a8c0@jay> References: <000701c26d54$09b60740$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Last night I rescued two Ohio Scientific systems: A challenger C1P and A Challenger II (which was a MUCH bigger box, and had a matching big, heavy dual 8" floppy cabinet). The haul also included an ADM-3A terminal (always wanted one of these), and a dual 5 1/4" floppy cabinet (don't know which system this goes to). I got no documentation, no software or anything (these were all picked up from a curb-side garbage pile!!)! I've always admired the ohio scientific systems...and almost bought a C1P back in the late 70's (it was a toss up between a C1P and a trs-80). Any pointers to documentation, software, specifications, etc?? I've read the stuff on a careful process to power-up an altair...does this apply to these systems too (I don't have much in the way of electronic test equipment or power supplies). thanks much! Man...I hate to think of these classic's going landfill...... gotta save 'em all! -Bob bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 08:45:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Newton Karma (was RE: 10 years) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007134625.48234.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? And if it's you, > > Sellam, then you need to give it up... both an Eo 440 and a Newton... > > that's a lot of karma! :-) > > Newtons are relatively easy to find (certainly easier than an EO 440). > Yes, I also have a Newton. But it was very hard earned karma, so please > cut me some slack :) I don't have a Newton myself, but my girlfriend does. She got it years before meeting me. She doesn't believe her when I tell her the kind of "geek points" she earned. Between that and her teaching herself to build web pages with a text editor (again, before she met me), I think I'm pretty lucky. In return, I helped her move from office work to a geek job. Now she's an operator for a data center with NT, UNIX and 36-bit machines! See how much karma a Newton conveys! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 7 09:21:01 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8 available in NZ ? In-Reply-To: <20021007040341.74712.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007092357.01b39730@ubanproductions.com> I was forworded this email. If there is someone in the NZ area, you might want to check this out. I have no association with this, so please don't send me email about it... --tom -----Original Message----- From: mark [mailto:mark@tcode.tcs.auckland.ac.nz] Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:45 AM Subject: PDP 8 Dear Sir. I have a PDP 8 (circa 1965). Is there a market for such a museum piece? Has it a value? Sincerely Mark R. Titchener -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021007/8346f2a4/attachment.html From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 7 09:24:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Pentium BIOS Writer's Guide? Message-ID: Does anyone have the first version of the Pentium BIOS Writer's Guide? If so, please contact me. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 7 09:58:00 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007072229.0272a4d8@pc> Message-ID: <001301c26e12$07b89840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > A quick Google of "richard erlacher death notices" > turned up nothing. :-) A similar Yahoo of +"richard erlacher"+death turned up his name in the proximity of "beating a horse to death". No surprise there. John A. From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 7 10:09:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007072229.0272a4d8@pc> <001301c26e12$07b89840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00bc01c26e13$a0e9b520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > A quick Google of "richard erlacher death notices" > turned up nothing. :-) A similar Yahoo of +"richard erlacher"+death turned up his name in the proximity of "beating a horse to death". No surprise there. John A. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 10:28:00 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Newton Karma (was RE: 10 years) Message-ID: >I don't have a Newton myself, but my girlfriend does. She got it >years before meeting me. She doesn't believe her when I tell her >the kind of "geek points" she earned. Between that and her teaching >herself to build web pages with a text editor (again, before she met >me), I think I'm pretty lucky. In return, I helped her move from >office work to a geek job. Now she's an operator for a data center >with NT, UNIX and 36-bit machines! > >See how much karma a Newton conveys! > GOD man, MARRY HER!!!! NOW!!!!! :-) :-) (and is her sister cute? :-) ) Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 10:31:00 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? Message-ID: I pinged him today, and he's just fine, thanks ... Just busy with some other stuff ... Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 7 10:32:01 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific's Rescued...need help/info! Message-ID: <21.254ecdea.2ad30354@aol.com> In a message dated 10/7/2002 9:10:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bbrown@harper.cc.il.us writes: << Last night I rescued two Ohio Scientific systems: A challenger C1P and A Challenger II (which was a MUCH bigger box, and had a matching big, heavy dual 8" floppy cabinet). The haul also included an ADM-3A terminal (always wanted one of these), and a dual 5 1/4" floppy cabinet (don't know which system this goes to). I got no documentation, no software or anything (these were all picked up from a curb-side garbage pile!!)! I've always admired the ohio scientific systems...and almost bought a C1P back in the late 70's (it was a toss up between a C1P and a trs-80). Any pointers to documentation, software, specifications, etc?? >> I have 5 C1P models including a plastic case one. I have schematics and shiny advertisements that must have came with the system. Interesting machines although I have not tested mine yet. The 4 I got last year have all sorts of switches and knobs on them. I think they were modded for extra video capabilities. From ipscone at msdsite.com Mon Oct 7 10:44:00 2002 From: ipscone at msdsite.com (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <00bc01c26e13$a0e9b520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007072229.0272a4d8@pc> <001301c26e12$07b89840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00bc01c26e13$a0e9b520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <61613.12.13.226.13.1034005547.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for troubleshooting vintage computers. I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm not familar with what is available. Any good choices? From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Oct 7 11:04:00 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <61613.12.13.226.13.1034005547.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube scope. I understand that you're spec'ing a LCD scope, but seriously consider a Tektronix 2445. This is a four channel 150mhz scope, and they can be had for $400-$500. A 2465 is an even better choice, with the 2465B being the top of the line. However, 300mhz is far more than you'll ever use day to day, and the B, while having some nice features, drives the price up into the $1000-$1200 range. You can also find good deals on the P6131 probes for the 2400 series scopes. These are far more flexible than the after market Scopemaster probes. I've found new ones on eBay (unopened) for $35 on occasion. LCDs scopes are a compromise. The bandwidth is poor (though adequate for most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic signals. They're OK to capture a single image, but if you want to watch for jitter in a clock and such, they're useless. Again, I acknowledge you've said you wanted a LCD scope, but if this is to be a primary instrument, I would recommend a good tube scope instead. --John -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 11:46 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for troubleshooting vintage computers. I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm not familar with what is available. Any good choices? From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Oct 7 11:33:00 2002 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete In-Reply-To: <3D9F3647.677A1C71@compsys.to> References: Message-ID: At 11:58 AM -0700 10/5/02, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Will Jennings wrote: > >> For what it's worth; RT-11 V4 seems to exist in both blue AND orange binder >> versions! And yes, the V4 manuals in blue do indeed have "PDP-11" style >> covers... Weird eh? > >Jerome Fine replies: > >Somewhere I seem to remember I have a set of V4.00 manuals >without ANY binders. Should I save them or toss them? It is >only about 18 inches of paper? > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine If these were somehow to make their way to Al Kossow, would he be willing to scan and make them available on his FTP site? John From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 12:08:00 2002 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007170950.67438.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The bandwidth is > poor (though adequate for > most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic > signals. They're OK to > capture a single image, but if you want to watch for > jitter in a clock and > such, they're useless. > Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works just fine thank you... steve __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Oct 7 12:20:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting References: <20021007170950.67438.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DA1C318.7000807@tiac.net> Works just fine, for what measurments? Analog scopes have clear advantages in some cases, digital scopes in others. LCD scopes are always digital scopes, and so they have some of the issues common to CRT based digital scopes. In most cases, a good quality digital scope (I use a Tek 2430A) can be pushed to do what comes easily to a much lower quality analog scope, but it takes much more work to get the scope setup just right. Manufactuers still make analog scopes for this very reason, which type works best depends on the types of signals, and the types of measurments being made. For people just learning to use an oscilloscope, I generally reccomend you start with an analog scope, as they are much less likely to 'lie' to you when you don't have the scope triggered correctly than a digital scope. This should not become an argument over which type of scope is 'better' than the other. Each type excells at some things, and not others. But which type of scope should be used for Vintage Compters is easy. A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was manufactured, of course! steve wrote: >--- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > >> All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube >>scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The >> >bandwidth is > >>poor (though adequate for >>most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic >>signals. They're OK to >>capture a single image, but if you want to watch for >>jitter in a clock and >>such, they're useless. >> > >Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works >just fine thank you... > >steve > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More >http://faith.yahoo.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021007/9a2222e7/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 7 12:23:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20021007170950.67438.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube > > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope? Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are beyond redemption. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ipscone at msdsite.com Mon Oct 7 13:17:00 2002 From: ipscone at msdsite.com (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <61613.12.13.226.13.1034005547.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: <61635.12.13.226.18.1034014700.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Actually, this is good info. I have limited my choice to LCD simply because of the size/weight issues. I have an area that I work most of the time that is not permanently set up. I was hoping to get something to allow easy tear down and setup. But, if LCD are junk, maybe I need to rethink that position. Mike > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube scope. I understand > that > you're spec'ing a LCD scope, but seriously consider a Tektronix 2445. > This is a four channel 150mhz scope, and they can be had for $400-$500. > A 2465 is an even better choice, with the 2465B being the top of the > line. However, 300mhz is far more than you'll ever use day to day, and > the B, while having some nice features, drives the price up into the > $1000-$1200 range. > > You can also find good deals on the P6131 probes for the 2400 series > scopes. These are far more flexible than the after market Scopemaster > probes. I've found new ones on eBay (unopened) for $35 on occasion. > > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The bandwidth is poor (though adequate > for > most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic signals. They're OK > to capture a single image, but if you want to watch for jitter in a > clock and such, they're useless. > > Again, I acknowledge you've said you wanted a LCD scope, but if this > is to > be a primary instrument, I would recommend a good tube scope instead. > > --John > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 11:46 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting > > > Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for > troubleshooting vintage computers. > I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to > limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, > I'm not familar with what is available. > Any good choices? From cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net Mon Oct 7 13:21:01 2002 From: cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <3DA1C318.7000807@tiac.net> References: <20021007170950.67438.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> <3DA1C318.7000807@tiac.net> Message-ID: <20021007182152.GA10627@www.4mcnabb.net> On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:23:36PM -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > But which type of scope should be used for Vintage Compters is easy. > > A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was > manufactured, of course! > Mine is a Tekronix RM-503. I also have an old RCA scope, plus a Kenwood Service Monitor scope (SM-220) that can handle 1KW of RF at up to 150 Mhz. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 7 13:23:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <61613.12.13.226.13.1034005547.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQue st.net> References: <00bc01c26e13$a0e9b520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <5.1.1.6.0.20021007072229.0272a4d8@pc> <001301c26e12$07b89840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00bc01c26e13$a0e9b520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021007142635.4d771556@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The all time classic scope has to be the Tektronix 465. It's the right vintage to go with most of the classic computers too. Joe At 08:45 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: >Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for >troubleshooting vintage computers. >I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to >limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm >not familar with what is available. >Any good choices? > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 7 13:28:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <20021007170950.67438.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021007143216.4d779b52@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:24 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: >> > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube >> > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The > >For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope? > > >Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became >Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are >beyond redemption. Is that the little tiny scope that NLS made with the screen that's about 1" across? I have one and it's usefull for some things such as checking for the presense of a signal but the screen is too small for a lot of uses. Therefore I wouldn't recommend it for someone's only or first scope. You should be able to remove the battteries and replace them without too much trouble. I replaced the batteries in mine about 15 -18 years ago. Yes, they're still good. That's why I insist on the Japanese made Sanyo batteries! Joe From patrick at evocative.com Mon Oct 7 13:33:00 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021007142635.4d771556@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > The all time classic scope has to be the Tektronix 465. It's > the right vintage to go with most of the classic computers too. > > Joe I've got one, but it's in dire need of calibration. Do you know anyone who can do this? Patrick From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Oct 7 13:33:50 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Semicon Cross Ref help needed Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5126FD4@MAIL10> Hello, all: I got my hands on an unpopulated S100 motherboard by Vector Electronics and I want to put it together for testing purposes. It's an active-terminated board and I'm having trouble finding equivalent parts for two transistors: NPN power: GE D44C1 or NSI D44C4 (TO-220) PNP power: GE D41D1 or NSI D45C4 (TO-202)(NSI is National Semiconductor) Any help would be appreciated. Rich From patrick at evocative.com Mon Oct 7 13:38:01 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator Message-ID: I have an Etak Navigator, serial number 67, that was at one time installed in my car, but many years ago was removed and relegated to a box in storage. I pulled it out a few months ago, but I have no idea where the tape drive is. I've moved many times since I worked there. I've contacted Etak (now Tele Atlas), but so far my inquiries have fallen on deaf ears. Does anyone out there happen to have a tape drive, or the whole system, that they'd be willing to sell/trade/etc? TIA, Patrick From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 7 13:41:01 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:48 2005 Subject: FYI: Kevin Mitnick's Laptop auction Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021007144529.0f4790ec@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The auctions for Kevin Mitnick's two laptops have closed. One reached $15,200 and the other reached $14,100! The $14,100 didn't reach the minimum! That's got to be some kind of records for laptops! There's something very odd going on with the first auction, the winner and the seller both have -1 feedback ratings! Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 7 13:47:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete In-Reply-To: References: <3D9F3647.677A1C71@compsys.to> Message-ID: >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >>Somewhere I seem to remember I have a set of V4.00 manuals >>without ANY binders. Should I save them or toss them? It is >>only about 18 inches of paper? >> >>Sincerely yours, >> >>Jerome Fine > >If these were somehow to make their way to Al Kossow, would he be willing >to scan and make them available on his FTP site? > >John Unfortunatly I don't think such material can legally be posted on an FTP site. RT-11 doc's are a bit tricky in that you can still get a set from Mentec. Please do not even consider making such material available on the net without first checking with them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 7 13:48:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20021007142635.4d771556@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021007144936.0f479630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yes, but he's pretty busy right now. I'll forward your E-mail to him and see if he can look at it. If all else fails, I have a manual for the 465. FWIW a friend of mine just bought a 465B that had problems with two of the atteuation/gain settings on one channel. He opened it up and opened the attenuator and found two of the mounting screws loose. Apparently they shorted or opened the ground to the attenuator. He tightened the screws and all is well now. Joe At 11:34 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: >> The all time classic scope has to be the Tektronix 465. It's >> the right vintage to go with most of the classic computers too. >> >> Joe > >I've got one, but it's in dire need of calibration. Do you know anyone who >can do this? > >Patrick > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 7 13:48:12 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021007145227.0f47bd94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What the heck is an Etak Navigator and why does it have a tape drive? Joe At 11:39 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: >I have an Etak Navigator, serial number 67, that was at one time installed >in my car, but many years ago was removed and relegated to a box in storage. >I pulled it out a few months ago, but I have no idea where the tape drive >is. I've moved many times since I worked there. I've contacted Etak (now >Tele Atlas), but so far my inquiries have fallen on deaf ears. Does anyone >out there happen to have a tape drive, or the whole system, that they'd be >willing to sell/trade/etc? TIA, Patrick > > From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Oct 7 13:58:01 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20021007170950.67438.qmail@web12402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works just fine thank you..." Yea, and I bet you didn't pay $800 for it, either. I perhaps should have expounded my distrust/distaste for the LCD scopes to more clearly say "handheld" scopes. I had a TDS scope at IBM (4 actually), and I dearly loved those things. They weren't *always* a substitute for a 2465B, but in most cases they were. And, ironically, they run Windows 95... I did boot Linux on one much to the consternation of the Tek guy, tho. Couldn't use it as a scope, but it really paniced him to see the scope tore open, and a spare drive hanging out of it. Oh yea, I also added a network card (supported under W95), and was able to FTP files off to the server to backup images and configurations. --John -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of steve Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 13:10 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The bandwidth is > poor (though adequate for > most 4Mhz systems), and do very poorly on dynamic > signals. They're OK to > capture a single image, but if you want to watch for > jitter in a clock and > such, they're useless. > Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope works just fine thank you... steve __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jim at jkearney.com Mon Oct 7 14:35:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting References: Message-ID: <011801c26e38$e6081af0$1301090a@jkearney.com> I haven't seen one of those for years! That was my very first scope... my Jr. High abutted Nonlinear and I used to go over there and scrounge parts after school. One of the techs sold me a refurb that wasn't in good enough condition to send out again for, I think, $50. I'd still have it if it weren't for a major UPS disaster shipping stuff home from college. When you work out a price, drop me a line please! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:24 PM Subject: RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting > > > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube > > > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The > > For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope? > > > Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became > Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are > beyond redemption. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From patrick at evocative.com Mon Oct 7 14:36:00 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021007145227.0f47bd94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Joe, Back in the mid-80's, Etak began shipping what I believe is the first commercially available in-vehicle navigation system. This system was the precursor to today's driver-guidance systems, and Etak's patents are probably in most if not all of them. The original Etak Navigator was a specially-packaged 286 system with 256MB RAM and 256MB ROM, and a four-track tape drive on which some of the "OS" and the digital maps were stored. The tapes didn't hold much, so for the San Francisco area, for example, you had four or five tapes--when you drove off the end of the map, you changed tapes to match your new location. The map moved as you drove, just like today's systems, but instead of the fancy color raster display, it had a green vector display. It had address geocoding (the ability to convert a street address to a lat/long point). It worked by using a compass mounted somewhere in the car (typically inside the headliner) and two wheel sensors on the rear wheels (which magnetic strips installed on the wheel rims themselves). The system worked by "dead reckoning" (actually "ded. reckoning" for "deduced"), which basically meant that you told it where you were when you first installed it, and then took it on a short calibration drive, and from then on, the system self-corrected and got increasingly better at following the map. No GPS at that time... that came much later, and obviously improved the accuracy and simplicity of the system. For those of you in the San Francisco area during the 70's and 80's, you could buy these at various auto-stereo places for around $3000-$3500 installed (does anyone remember Steven Matthew David, owner of Matthews TV and Stereo, top of the hill, Daly City! :-)) It was also used in emergency vehicles: coupled with a data radio, a central dispatch could watch a moving display of paramedic and fire vehicles driving around. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 2:52 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Etak Navigator > > > What the heck is an Etak Navigator and why does it have a tape drive? > > Joe > > At 11:39 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: > >I have an Etak Navigator, serial number 67, that was at one time > installed > >in my car, but many years ago was removed and relegated to a box > in storage. > >I pulled it out a few months ago, but I have no idea where the tape drive > >is. I've moved many times since I worked there. I've contacted > Etak (now > >Tele Atlas), but so far my inquiries have fallen on deaf ears. > Does anyone > >out there happen to have a tape drive, or the whole system, that > they'd be > >willing to sell/trade/etc? TIA, Patrick > > > > > > > From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 14:43:00 2002 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007194404.21954.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > "Huh? What? My 200Mhz, 2Gs/sec Tek TDS LCD scope > works just fine thank > you..." > > Yea, and I bet you didn't pay $800 for it, either. Correct. > I perhaps should have > expounded my distrust/distaste for the LCD scopes to > more clearly say > "handheld" scopes. Oh, those things, is that what the original poster was taking about? I hate all the handhelds, the display size alone is all the justification you need not to get one, ...my ideal scope would have about a 5 foot long display steve __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From ipscone at msdsite.com Mon Oct 7 14:56:00 2002 From: ipscone at msdsite.com (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20021007194404.21954.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021007194404.21954.qmail@web12408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <60909.12.13.226.98.1034020666.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> >> I perhaps should have >> expounded my distrust/distaste for the LCD scopes to >> more clearly say >> "handheld" scopes. > > Oh, those things, is that what the original poster was > taking about? I hate all the handhelds, the display > size alone is all the justification you need not to > get one, ...my ideal scope would have about a 5 foot > long display > > steve Well, since I was the original poster, I have a good idea what I was talking about. I was referring to an LCD scope that was portable (didn't specify handheld) that would be suitable for vintage computer work. The only ones I have seen to refer to are the newer Tek scopes that are about 12" wide and have a 5" (or so) LCD display. I need something light weight and easily to move around. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 7 15:10:00 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: FYI: Kevin Mitnick's Laptop auction In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021007144529.0f4790ec@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021007131247.028bc5f0@mail.zipcon.net> At 02:45 PM 10/7/02 +0000, you wrote: > The auctions for Kevin Mitnick's two laptops have closed. One reached > $15,200 and the other reached $14,100! The $14,100 didn't reach the > minimum! That's got to be some kind of records for laptops! There's > something very odd going on with the first auction, the winner and the > seller both have -1 feedback ratings! > > > > > > Joe here's the feedback.... for the 1st auciton. Complaint : I have never bid on Ebay for any item - someone is having someone on. Response by tsstechgoddess - Bidder replied name/address to eBay. No reply to e-mails after bid. Fake bid. From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Oct 7 15:15:01 2002 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: 11/44 rescue complete In-Reply-To: References: <3D9F3647.677A1C71@compsys.to> Message-ID: Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression that Mentec would not be concerned with V4. Similarly I have found various RSTS manuals online and assumed that since they were >>Jerome Fine replies: >>> >>>Somewhere I seem to remember I have a set of V4.00 manuals >>>without ANY binders. Should I save them or toss them? It is >>>only about 18 inches of paper? >>> >>>Sincerely yours, >>> >>>Jerome Fine >> >>If these were somehow to make their way to Al Kossow, would he be willing >>to scan and make them available on his FTP site? >> >>John > >Unfortunatly I don't think such material can legally be posted on an FTP >site. RT-11 doc's are a bit tricky in that you can still get a set from >Mentec. Please do not even consider making such material available on the >net without first checking with them. > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 15:32:00 2002 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <60909.12.13.226.98.1034020666.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: <20021007203354.30714.qmail@web12401.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike wrote: > Well, since I was the original poster, I have a good > idea what I was > talking about. > I was referring to an LCD scope that was portable > (didn't specify > handheld) that would be suitable for vintage > computer work. The only ones > I have seen to refer to are the newer Tek scopes > that are about 12" wide > and have a 5" (or so) LCD display. > I need something light weight and easily to move > around. > > Hi Mike, Oh, ok, those are nice portable scopes, I did own a Tek 210, which is the bottom of the line older version of the type you are referring to and I built and debugged many a classic computer with it, it did everything I needed it to do, being very light and small they are nice to move around too, I recommend one. Lecroy makes a similar one, but the Tek's are very popular in industry and used ones can be found on ebay for $600 or so. I believe HP makes a larger portable with a built-in 16 channel logic analyzer, which is very nice, but out of my price range. A analog scope will have a better front end for the same price, but I don't have the patience to use one for any of my projects (personal preference) and of course they are much larger. steve steve __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Oct 7 15:37:00 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: NLS Scope value (was scope for vintage computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good tube > > > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The From having owned many of both kinds, I still prefer a tiny CRT based scope to a big LCD - and I do mostly audio and low RF stuff... the Tek LCD rig is not bad, but when you factor in the 'what it does:what it costs' relation, then.... > > For working on vintage computers, should you use a vintage scope? Many, many old photos of IBM and Univac consoles have the obligatory Tek 545B on a cart, waiting to be Useful. And of course, Tony Duel has recently converted his 555 to portable use, so he's Ready for Anything. (He reprotedly uses a household biomass methane generator to fire a vintage 1898 Eppley 20HP steam engine, leather belted to a vintage 1911 Thompson-Houston DC generator, the output of which is fed to a DC to AC convertor of his own design, the first in England to use cast-off sodium vapor streetlamps for the purpose.. all of it controlled by a Perq on wheels.) [Advance appointments for service calls are recommended] ;} Meself, I have a couple of 465Bs, an HP rackmount something, and an old HP 140 mainframe with a Nelson-Ross spectrum analyzer stuck in it. Also, in the portable area, I found a cute little Tek 213 DMM scope, which is actually smaller than the NLS machines, and has a cool digital multi-meter function that displays on the screen in vector numerals. Came with most of another one (for Partz) and all manuals. Gotta love Ham Swap Meets. > > Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an NLS (they later became > Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable scope? The batteries are > beyond redemption. > I see the 215s in working shape typically in the $75 to 150 range, depending on degree of pristininity and presence of manuals, probes, leatherette case, etc. Two things are 'gotchas' with the NLS scopes: the CRT, and the fact that they use old CMOS 4016 quad bilateral switch ICs on place of 'real' switches. If you encounter one that seems to 'light up' but is otherwise autistic, it almost always can be traced to one or more of the 4016s dying. They are now made of Unobtanium, and the 'replacement' pinouts and impedances are different, so a kludge is called for, if original 4016s can't be scrounged. For your particular example, I'd offer you $35 and let you talk me up to 45 or 50... if it was otherwise in good-looking shape, and had the case with it. They're pretty simple units and easy to work on... Cheers John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 7 15:39:00 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20021007145227.0f47bd94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007153321.0292c678@pc> At 12:37 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Patrick Rigney wrote: >Back in the mid-80's, Etak began shipping what I believe is the first >commercially available in-vehicle navigation system. I think Amiga designer Jay Miner once worked at Etak, but my memory is not confirmed by Google. - John From jim at jkearney.com Mon Oct 7 16:01:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: NLS Scope value (was scope for vintage computers) References: Message-ID: <01b801c26e44$e2aa5380$1301090a@jkearney.com> > they use old CMOS 4016 quad bilateral switch ICs on place of 'real' > switches. If you encounter one that seems to 'light up' but is otherwise > autistic, it almost always can be traced to one or more of the 4016s > dying. They are now made of Unobtanium, and the 'replacement' pinouts and > impedances are different, so a kludge is called for, if original 4016s > can't be scrounged. What do you mean? CD4016s are still available from a lot of sources, even Digi-Key. Is it an odd, non-DIP package? From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 7 16:02:00 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Will Jennings wrote: > It is possible that it is 760K, I haven't looked up the model number on the > floppy drive in my 3068EP yet, I was just guessing due to the lateness of > the machine.. > > Will J The several German sites that I visited via google all indicated 1.2MB 5.25" drive. - don > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 7 16:12:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks Message-ID: I looked the model of the drive up, and sure enough, 1.2MB.. Which is exactly what I had figured. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 7 16:15:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: scanning PDP-11 software manuals (was Re: 11/44 rescue complete) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33977.64.169.63.74.1034025382.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> "John A. Dundas III" wrote: > If these were somehow to make their way to Al Kossow, would he be > willing to scan and make them available on his FTP site? I can't really speak for Al, but since he uses my Ricoh scanner for a lot of his scanning, I'll try anyhow. :-) The problem with putting PDP-11 software manuals online is that Mentec still owns and sells this stuff. If someone were to convince Mentec to grant permission to put scans of PDP-11 software manuals online, I think Al would be happy to do it. Note that some PDP-11 software is NOT owned by Mentec. Obvious examples are DOS/Batch, IAS, DSM (Mumps), and diagnostics. Al has already scanned some DOS/Batch docs, but I'm sure that if more of these manuals were provided, he'd get them scanned. You'd have to check with Al to be sure, though. Eric From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Mon Oct 7 16:16:00 2002 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <17yfFE-1vxztYC@fwd07.sul.t-online.com> On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 17:50:13 -0700 (PDT), Don Maslin wrote: > > >On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >> > We had an old Altos 3068 (running a 68010 chip I belive) that died. We are >> Perhaps somebody else here has enough familiarity with his model of >> computer to provide some of the information that he failed to. > >Fred, several sites that I dug up via google show the mass storage of >the machine to be 5.25" 1.2MB floppy and 20MB hard disk. Sounds like >it used 512 byte sectors in Unix form. Hi.. he should use ANADISK and TELEDISK. Anadisk to see the contence of the disk and to make a dump (including sector/track informations) of it. Teledisk will make an image he could sent to us for expecting the format. I'm interested in an image for testing. MfG. Fritz Chwolka >> collecting old computers just for fun << << at www.alterechner.de >> From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 7 16:16:17 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Will Jennings wrote: > I looked the model of the drive up, and sure enough, 1.2MB.. Which is > exactly what I had figured. I think the source of the confusion is that the Z80-based Altos all had DSQD drives. Doc From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 7 16:49:00 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 working In-Reply-To: pete@mindy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: PDP 11/44 working" (Oct 7, 6:57) References: <10210070757.ZM26268@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10210071835.ZM26614@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 6:57, Pete Turnbull wrote: > DQ686 is an ESDI controller, with MSCP protocol. Oops, I meant DU686 (though a DQ is much the same thing, only for QBus instead of Unibus). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 7 16:49:53 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Mystery QBus cards In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: Mystery QBus cards" (Oct 7, 11:16) References: <3DA06A30.6050908@rogers.com> <10210070150.ZM26093@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20021007091633.GA30912@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10210071837.ZM26619@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 11:16, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 12:50:54AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > I always get the QIC numbers confused. Which are the interface > > descriptions and which are the tape formats? > http://www.qic.org/html/qicstan.html Thanks, I've bookmarked that so I have (almost) no excuse now! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Oct 7 16:54:01 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Newton Karma (was RE: 10 years) References: Message-ID: <3DA201FE.7B88B486@gifford.co.uk> Rich Beaudry wrote: > >I don't have a Newton myself, but my girlfriend does. ... > >Now she's an operator for a data center > >with NT, UNIX and 36-bit machines! > GOD man, MARRY HER!!!! NOW!!!!! Will somebody *please* tell me where I can meet women like this? :-) ObClassicCmp: Acquired a PET 2001 the other day. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Oct 7 16:58:00 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: 10 years References: Message-ID: <3DA202D7.73B336A4@gifford.co.uk> Patrick Rigney wrote: > Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? Yes, I have one: a MessagePad model H1000. I also have an Amstrad PenPad PDA 600, an HP OmniGo, a Philips Nino and a Microwriter AgendA. Ooops, the Newton's only nine years old; I claim "cool factor"! -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 7 17:01:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Will Jennings wrote: > I looked the model of the drive up, and sure enough, 1.2MB.. Which is > exactly what I had figured. THANK YOU! Would it be convenient for you to provide some basic information about the machine? Processor? Memory? Disk capacity? Disk format parameters even? So far, all we have heard about it is the MODEL NUMBER, your confirmation of the drive model, and discussion between people who haven't seen a machine, and don't know what it is, about what they've found out on the web. I trust your statement about the drive, since you have looked at it. I do NOT trust a website that says QD or 96TPI or 1.2M, since many of them don't know the differences. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Mon Oct 7 17:52:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: scanning PDP-11 software manuals (was Re: 11/44 rescue complete) References: <33977.64.169.63.74.1034025382.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3DA21062.5E55FBB3@compsys.to> >Eric Smith wrote: > The problem with putting PDP-11 software manuals online is that Mentec > still owns and sells this stuff. If someone were to convince Mentec > to grant permission to put scans of PDP-11 software manuals online, > I think Al would be happy to do it. Jerome Fine replies: In respect to the V4.00 RT-11 manuals, I still have not found them, but will continue to look. However, based on the notice that someone posted (Zane was it you? that DEC allows anyone to make a copy of any DOCs that are not longer being sold by DEC, I can't see that there would be a problem with scanning RT-11 V4.00 DOCs and putting them on a CD. From there, it should be possible to at least distribute them privately until the issue is resolved. > Note that some PDP-11 software is NOT owned by Mentec. Obvious > examples are DOS/Batch, IAS, DSM (Mumps), and diagnostics. Al has > already scanned some DOS/Batch docs, but I'm sure that if more of > these manuals were provided, he'd get them scanned. As for who actually owns the present DOCs for RT-11, there really seems to be something VERY curious (fishy?) going on. Since the only available DOCs for RT-11 are for V5.06 (which are the same IDENTICAL DOCs as are being used for V5.07 - with the addition from Mentec of just the V5.07 Release Notes which are mostly useless from what I have been told), it seems possible that DEC still owns the actual copyright on the DOCs themselves. In addition, I know the DEC approved of making copies of even V5.04G DOCs for RT-11 since they are no longer being sold by DEC. And there certainly seems to be a blackout on ALMOST ALL detailed information about V5.07 of RT-11. For example, I would very much like to add a large number of bugs to the SECRET "Mentec V5.07 RT-11 Bug List", but I am prevented from doing so because the list is of course SECRET. > You'd have to check with Al to be sure, though. Maybe it would be better to have Al scan a set of at least V5.03 DOCs for RT-11. Since DEC certainly is not selling V5.03 if V5.04G is not available, I can't see why putting V5.03 DOCs on a CD would not be permitted as well. Perhaps either Al or anyone else willing to scan a set of RT-11 DOCs could contact me. Al are you still at the same e-mail address? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 18:11:01 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021007143216.4d779b52@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20021007231228.39227.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> FWIW, I sold this model on eBay last year for $80.00 or thereabouts, with good (replaced) batteries. I liked it very much and was the original owner. I used it in field service (just simple stuff) but I don't move around anymore so I got a Tek 464 (harder to get parts for than a 465, but really better with analog storage). The DM44 (meter) option is nice if you don't have a frequency counter, BTW. It was an option on the 465 also. There is a Yahoo newsgroup for Tek scope restoration; they formerly discussed only tube models but now transistors are OK. --- Joe wrote: > At 10:24 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: > >> > All LCD scopes are junk compared to a good > tube > >> > scope. > LCDs scopes are a compromise. The > > > >For working on vintage computers, should you use a > vintage scope? > > > > > >Can somebody advise me how much to charge for an > NLS (they later became > >Kaypro) model 215 (dual trace 15 MHz) portable > scope? The batteries are > >beyond redemption. > > Is that the little tiny scope that NLS made with > the screen that's about 1" across? I have one and > it's usefull for some things such as checking for > the presense of a signal but the screen is too small > for a lot of uses. Therefore I wouldn't recommend it > for someone's only or first scope. > > You should be able to remove the battteries and > replace them without too much trouble. I replaced > the batteries in mine about 15 -18 years ago. Yes, > they're still good. That's why I insist on the > Japanese made Sanyo batteries! > > Joe > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From vaxzilla at jarai.org Mon Oct 7 18:19:00 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > Back in the mid-80's, Etak began shipping what I believe is the first > commercially available in-vehicle navigation system. This system was the > precursor to today's driver-guidance systems, and Etak's patents are > probably in most if not all of them. The original Etak Navigator was a > specially-packaged 286 system with 256MB RAM and 256MB ROM, and a four-track > tape drive on which some of the "OS" and the digital maps were stored. I'm guessing you meant to say "256KB RAM and 256KB ROM"; otherwise, that computer would've probably cost several times more than the car in which it was used--at least back in the mid-1980s. -brian. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 18:49:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021007235012.87621.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> I've gotten lucky, twice, on eBay, paying $200 for a 464 (like a 465 with an analog storage capability). It had recent (but out of date) calibration from the Canadian Air Force. It worked for 1.5 years and then a hi-voltage diode went. Instead of fixing it, I picked up another, also in good calibration from HP (really!), and excellent condition on eBay for only $45.00, with the DM44 option. It was close to cheaper than fixing it, so now I have spare parts (darned important, given that most parts are made from unobtanium). 465's are expensive because they are so popular. Not everyone knows what a 464 is and no one searches for it. If you get a 464/5/etc, make sure it has a front cover if you plan to use it portably. I also picked up (locally) a K212 scope cart only dusty, for only $25.00. A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I have a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's another subject.... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From patrick at evocative.com Mon Oct 7 19:04:00 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Brian, you are so right. My bad. New habits die hard. Thanks for spotting the error. --Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Brian Chase > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:21 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Etak Navigator > > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > Back in the mid-80's, Etak began shipping what I believe is the first > > commercially available in-vehicle navigation system. This > system was the > > precursor to today's driver-guidance systems, and Etak's patents are > > probably in most if not all of them. The original Etak Navigator was a > > specially-packaged 286 system with 256MB RAM and 256MB ROM, and > a four-track > > tape drive on which some of the "OS" and the digital maps were stored. > > I'm guessing you meant to say "256KB RAM and 256KB ROM"; otherwise, that > computer would've probably cost several times more than the car in which > it was used--at least back in the mid-1980s. > > -brian. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 7 19:09:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20021007235012.87621.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021007201234.492f6338@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:50 PM 10/7/02 -0700, steve wrote: >A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I have >a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's >another subject.... Steve, do you know if anyone has tried making copies of the disassebler ROMs for the Tek 1230/124x LAs? I've heard some talk about it but don't know if any one's actually done it yet. FYI: I looked through the old HP terminals around here today but none of them had keyboards. I do know someone that has (had?) a keyboard but I don't know if it's still around. I'll keep looking. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 7 19:11:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > specially-packaged 286 system with 256MB RAM and 256MB ROM, and > I'm guessing you meant to say "256KB RAM and 256KB ROM"; otherwise, that > computer would've probably cost several times more than the car in which > it was used--at least back in the mid-1980s. Plus, the regular models of the 286 had 24 address lines, and therefore, anything more than 16M would have required some sort of bank-switching. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Oct 7 19:30:01 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Etak Navigator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c26e62$12dba4b0$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I was working for a subsidiary of Magnavox in the early 1980s and we were producing and selling what we called the "AVLS" or Advanced Vehicle Locating System. Ours was also a dead reckoning system with a Magnavox SatNav/Loran C box keeping our locations as accurate as possible. This was the same system Magnavox sold for marine applications and it was amazingly accurate for the pre-GPS days. We would pester the USGS for their best maps and manually digitize them using AutoCad. The data was then loaded onto hellishly expensive Gridcase 8086 based machines (the old magnesium ones with the red plasma displays.) We could plot a moving vehicles position to within a few yards if we were correctly calibrated. Our accuracy was better just after a Sat fix and worst just before one, of course. The vehicle data was also passed back to a base station for display there (via packet radio or something like it - I wasn't too close to that part of the system.) Rather then create broad area maps and expect to sell this system to individuals we specifically marketed to agencies that could use the information to track their vehicles. A couple of Canadian cities loved the idea and bought it to improve their EMS service, tracking ambulance and paramedic locations real-time and dispatching based on actual response times rather then their theoretical response times from base positions. We also sold an installation to a police force in CT that I'll not mention. Those units "mysteriously" became very unreliable. Many of the antennas were gummed up daily (really - they'd stuff chewing gum wrappers in the antenna base to fubar the reception) and several of the units themselves fell apart (with the assistance of the butt end of a shotgun or two). Eventually the local Police union killed the deal, even after we put a "panic button" on the police radios that would alert the dispatcher with an exact lat/long for the officer's vehicle when it was pressed. We beat Etak to market by several years although we were in a vastly different market. Erik S. Klein www.vintage-computer.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Rigney Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 12:38 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Etak Navigator Joe, Back in the mid-80's, Etak began shipping what I believe is the first commercially available in-vehicle navigation system. This system was the precursor to today's driver-guidance systems, and Etak's patents are probably in most if not all of them. The original Etak Navigator was a specially-packaged 286 system with 256MB RAM and 256MB ROM, and a four-track tape drive on which some of the "OS" and the digital maps were stored. The tapes didn't hold much, so for the San Francisco area, for example, you had four or five tapes--when you drove off the end of the map, you changed tapes to match your new location. The map moved as you drove, just like today's systems, but instead of the fancy color raster display, it had a green vector display. It had address geocoding (the ability to convert a street address to a lat/long point). It worked by using a compass mounted somewhere in the car (typically inside the headliner) and two wheel sensors on the rear wheels (which magnetic strips installed on the wheel rims themselves). The system worked by "dead reckoning" (actually "ded. reckoning" for "deduced"), which basically meant that you told it where you were when you first installed it, and then took it on a short calibration drive, and from then on, the system self-corrected and got increasingly better at following the map. No GPS at that time... that came much later, and obviously improved the accuracy and simplicity of the system. For those of you in the San Francisco area during the 70's and 80's, you could buy these at various auto-stereo places for around $3000-$3500 installed (does anyone remember Steven Matthew David, owner of Matthews TV and Stereo, top of the hill, Daly City! :-)) It was also used in emergency vehicles: coupled with a data radio, a central dispatch could watch a moving display of paramedic and fire vehicles driving around. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 2:52 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Etak Navigator > > > What the heck is an Etak Navigator and why does it have a tape drive? > > Joe > > At 11:39 AM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: > >I have an Etak Navigator, serial number 67, that was at one time > installed > >in my car, but many years ago was removed and relegated to a box > in storage. > >I pulled it out a few months ago, but I have no idea where the tape drive > >is. I've moved many times since I worked there. I've contacted > Etak (now > >Tele Atlas), but so far my inquiries have fallen on deaf ears. > Does anyone > >out there happen to have a tape drive, or the whole system, that > they'd be > >willing to sell/trade/etc? TIA, Patrick > > > > > > > From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 19:39:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021007201234.492f6338@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20021008004049.9611.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately, I have the manuals for every single disassembler probe that unit had, but no disassembler pods...the only ROM work I've done with it had to do with making it Y2K compliant (one unit had newer ROM's than the other). I have one unit with 3 pods, 2 interface boards, the serial and printer boards, and one bad interface board, and the other, just the main unit with a pod. I did make my own wire sets, though. Thanks for looking on the key. I won't use a not-so-perfect replacement quite yet! Did you see my hair-raising note on the CRT fix? --- Joe wrote: > At 04:50 PM 10/7/02 -0700, steve wrote: > > >A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I > have > >a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's > >another subject.... > > Steve, do you know if anyone has tried making > copies of the disassebler ROMs for the Tek 1230/124x > LAs? I've heard some talk about it but don't know if > any one's actually done it yet. > > FYI: I looked through the old HP terminals around > here today but none of them had keyboards. I do know > someone that has (had?) a keyboard but I don't know > if it's still around. I'll keep looking. > > Joe > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jim at jkearney.com Mon Oct 7 20:18:00 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting References: <3.0.6.16.20021007201234.492f6338@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <025a01c26e68$cb0ee3c0$1301090a@jkearney.com> There is a guy in the Czech Republic named Pavel Korensky who has a large archive of Tek 1240 ROM images, and has built a 'SuperPack' cartridge that holds a bunch of them at once, plus a large nonvolatile RAM. His email is pavel.korensky@dator3.cz. He has a kind of mini-SIG and email list going. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Tek 1230 LA RE: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting > At 04:50 PM 10/7/02 -0700, steve wrote: > > >A logic analyzer is also a nice thing to have, I have > >a loaded Tek 1230 and a working spare, but that's > >another subject.... > > Steve, do you know if anyone has tried making copies of the disassebler ROMs for the Tek 1230/124x LAs? I've heard some talk about it but don't know if any one's actually done it yet. > > FYI: I looked through the old HP terminals around here today but none of them had keyboards. I do know someone that has (had?) a keyboard but I don't know if it's still around. I'll keep looking. > > Joe > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 7 21:18:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons References: <3DA202D7.73B336A4@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <00c301c26e71$1ef9ea90$d9000240@oemcomputer> I have several older models the 100, 110, 120, 130, and eMate 300. They are all really cool. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Honniball" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:55 PM Subject: Re: 10 years > > Patrick Rigney wrote: > > Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? > > Yes, I have one: a MessagePad model H1000. I also have an > Amstrad PenPad PDA 600, an HP OmniGo, a Philips Nino and > a Microwriter AgendA. > > Ooops, the Newton's only nine years old; I claim "cool factor"! > > -- > John Honniball > coredump@gifford.co.uk > From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 7 22:13:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: <000501c26df8$104d17c0$177ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Should someone check on him to see if everything is OK? > > A couple of years ago I was exchanging email with a guy down in Texas > about his TRS-80 Model 1 which he wanted to give way. Didn't hear from > in a while, so I sent an "what's up" message. Got a message some time > later from his daughter that he passed away shortly after that message. > Strangely enough he packaged up the computer before he passed away and > his daughter was kind enough to send it. > > Weird. It happens. I had a similar experience with someone local to me in Houston. Strangely enough, I got a well used and fairly complete TRS-80 Model 1 from that person. I *really* regret not getting all the QST, Radio Electronics, etc magazines from him now, but at least I got the 80 Micro magazines. One day I'm gonna have to finish rebuilding the Selectric printer that came with it and put pictures of it and the interface box up... -Toth From cube1 at charter.net Mon Oct 7 22:21:00 2002 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: TU-58 tapes for VAX 11/750 and 11/730 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813174109.03287540@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021007222957.0402c008@cirithi> msell@ontimesupport.com There are emulators out there for the PC. If you like, I can read your tapes in on my Tu58 onto my PC. (I don't have a VAX 111/7x0, however). Jay At 05:46 PM 8/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Guys, > > >I have a few console, diagnostic, and patch tapes for the 11/750 and >11/730 on TU-58. I just recently got my 11/750 working, but I don't have a >console tape that will boot it properly, though. > >What emulators are used to communicate with the VAX to simulate the TU-58? >Anything for DOS, or is everything Linux based? > >I remember a discussion a little while ago about TU-58 tapes and a >possible archive site, has that been set up? If so - when I can get the >tapes archived I can submit these for inclusion. > >I'd also like to snarf a console tape archive or two as well... : ) > >Thanks! > > > - Matt > > > > > >Matthew Sell >Programmer >On Time Support, Inc. >www.ontimesupport.com >(281) 296-6066 > >Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! >http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. > > >"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad >"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > >Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@charter.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021007/4edbb4e6/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 7 22:39:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > A couple of years ago I was exchanging email with a guy down in Texas > > about his TRS-80 Model 1 which he wanted to give way. Didn't hear from > > in a while, so I sent an "what's up" message. Got a message some time > > later from his daughter that he passed away shortly after that message. > It happens. I had a similar experience with someone local to me in I got an email from Scott Mueller offering Casio CFX watches and parts. I tried to locate Bob Wallace, since I once replaced the case of his, and figured he'd be due for more parts. THAT was when I found out that Bob had just died. A couple of times I've had people die in mid transaction. Fortunately most executors don't mind finishing the transaction. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 7 22:45:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: NLS Scope value (was scope for vintage computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I see the 215s in working shape typically in the $75 to 150 range, > depending on degree of pristininity and presence of manuals, probes, > leatherette case, etc. Thanks BTW, they also made single trace models, and ones of other speeds. 215 is dual trace 15 MHz. I don't think that I'll get around to swapping batteries; I don't have the original probes; and I don't have the front of the leather case (it is fully removable to facilitate losing it). So, I should probably take it to VCF, so that anybody interested can get a close look before considering it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 7 23:02:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <61635.12.13.226.18.1034014700.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Mike wrote: > Actually, this is good info. I have limited my choice to LCD simply > because of the size/weight issues. I have an area that I work most of > the time that is not permanently set up. I was hoping to get something > to allow easy tear down and setup. The late generation analogs really don't weigh that much, so those might work out well for you. The older/larger scopes were commonly mounted in racks or were used on carts if they were to be moved much. Make sure the scope comes with probes, or that they are readily available. I picked up several Tektronix 2216 scopes quite some time ago, but later found out the special probes it requires are not commonly available. The 2216 is nice in that it does not weigh very much, but still has plenty of features for a 60MHz analog. (I did finally manage to locate some genuine Tek probes, so hopefully soon I'll have those scopes working.) -Toth From cb at mythtech.net Tue Oct 8 00:19:00 2002 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons Message-ID: >I have several older models the 100, 110, 120, 130, and eMate 300. They are >all really cool. I have just the 100, and 2 of the 110's. (but want a 130, an eMate and a 2100, don't care much about the 120 or 2000) I was a member of Apple's "Newton Developer Program", so I do have a number of cool CDs full of stuff. At one point I was writing software for them, but I wasn't very good. -chris From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Oct 8 00:20:00 2002 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Barco Chromatics CX-2000 Message-ID: Greetings all, Have been offered a Barco Chromatics unit, but I'm having the devil of a time trying to find any decent information out about the unit. I've been scouring Google but the only useful thing I found is pretty generic. 6U VME unit, graphics renderer, semi-proprietary UI maybe... Anyone have any better first-hand knowledge of the unit? The dude has no VDU for the machine, but it has a set of 5 BNC connectors which gives me some hope... Anyways, Any help appreciated. JP From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 8 00:58:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: Jeffrey Worley? (Was: Richard Erlacher?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <175106885092.20021008005549@subatomix.com> On Monday, October 7, 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > A couple of times I've had people die in mid transaction. Fortunately most > executors don't mind finishing the transaction. A while back we thought something had happened to Jeffrey Worley (technoid). People were wanting to get in touch with him. I just Googled for him, and it looks like there's some new activity as recent as 06/20, as can be seen on this page: http://www.nsva.org/guestbook/guestbook.html Looks like his current address may be technoid at 30below.com. -- Jeffrey Sharp From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Oct 8 07:07:00 2002 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:49 2005 Subject: HP 2644A "Moldy CRT" Update References: <20021006225844.21498.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <043001c26ec3$6e30b880$0101a8c0@athlon> Well done, Steve- Wasn't that hard after all, eh?!! Dave Brown Christchurch NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loboyko Steve" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: HP 2644A "Moldy CRT" Update > I have successfully solved the HP2644A "Moldy CRT" > "contain") the CRT in removing the front glare shield. > From tony.eros at machm.org Tue Oct 8 07:09:00 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? In-Reply-To: <20021006152730.TJZP9131.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> References: <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021008074909.00afcda8@mail.njd.concentric.com> On three occasions when I received items from Canada that were shipped via UPS, I've received brokerage fee bills from UPS. In each case, I called the number on the invoice and complained to the UPS brokerage rep. I pointed out that whenever I call UPS customer service to have a late package traced, I'm told to talk to the shipper since the contract for shipping service is between UPS and the shipper, not UPS and the consignee. So, I said, since the contract is between UPS and the shipper, they need to send this bill to the shipper. The rep usually responds that no, the consignee is responsible for the brokerage fee. I then ask the rep how I can be responsible for service fees when UPS' own customer service tells me that the contract is between UPS and the shipper. Then, I repeat in my most reasonable voice that UPS should send this bill to the shipper. At this point, the UPS brokerage rep sighs and says, as a customer service, they'll waive the brokerage fee. As well they should. All in all, it only takes a few minutes, and it's always fun to listen to the brokerage rep fumble around trying to justify the contradictory policies of UPS. -- Tony From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 8 07:31:01 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021008071814.0272a4d8@pc> At 08:40 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >A couple of times I've had people die in mid transaction. Fortunately >most executors don't mind finishing the transaction. I know this list has talked about it before, but it would be great if there was an automated "dead man's switch" system that could notify the buzzards to collect the collection. Sure, a will helps, but who bothers to list all their computer junk in their will? - John From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Oct 8 07:31:20 2002 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <3D9D5B64.4066.816BF59@localhost> Message-ID: <04fb01c26ec6$db8b61c0$0101a8c0@athlon> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Request from Intel's Museum > What I was surprised at, was the date of the "Electronics" issue. I didn't > know they went back that far. They actually go back pre WW2. I have bound copies of full years from the mid thirties up through WW2 as far as 1949/50. Great reading-specially the adverts! Dave Brown Christchurch NZ From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Oct 8 07:52:01 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021008071814.0272a4d8@pc> Message-ID: It's for Windows (and thus violates the 10 year rule...) but anyway: http://www.daisyman.arsware.org/dms/ --John -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 08:20 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Richard Erlacher? At 08:40 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >A couple of times I've had people die in mid transaction. Fortunately >most executors don't mind finishing the transaction. I know this list has talked about it before, but it would be great if there was an automated "dead man's switch" system that could notify the buzzards to collect the collection. Sure, a will helps, but who bothers to list all their computer junk in their will? - John From sloboyko at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 08:45:01 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: HP 2644A "Moldy CRT" Update In-Reply-To: <043001c26ec3$6e30b880$0101a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20021008134621.42199.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave Brown wrote: > Well done, Steve- Wasn't that hard after all, eh?!! > Dave Brown > Christchurch > NZ I was wondering if you would read about this. Thanks for giving me the idea that it could be done! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Oct 8 09:15:01 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Semicon Cross Ref help needed Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002; "Cini, Richard" wrote: > I got my hands on an unpopulated S100 motherboard by Vector > Electronics and I want to put it together for testing purposes. It's an > active-terminated board and I'm having trouble finding equivalent parts for > two transistors: Looking at a 1982 copy of the ECG Replacement Guide: > NPN power: GE D44C1 or NSI D44C4 (TO-220) ECG377 (TO-220) for both > PNP power: GE D41D1 or NSI D45C4 (TO-202)(NSI is National Semiconductor) D41D1 - ECG211 (TO-202) D45C4 - ECG378 (TO-220) ECG377 and ECG378 are listed as Compl. to each other ECG211 is listed as 1 amp and 6.25 watts ECG377/378 are listed as 10 amp and 50 watts Hope this helps, Mike From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Oct 8 09:52:01 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Barco Chromatics CX-2000 References: Message-ID: <3DA2F082.D3455EB4@ccp.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings all, > > Have been offered a Barco Chromatics unit, but I'm having the devil of a > time trying to find any decent information out about the unit. > I've been scouring Google but the only useful thing I found is pretty > generic. 6U VME unit, graphics renderer, semi-proprietary UI maybe... > > Anyone have any better first-hand knowledge of the unit? > The dude has no VDU for the machine, but it has a set of 5 BNC connectors > which gives me some hope... > > Anyways, > Any help appreciated. > > JP You might try the US Barco Distributor in Kennesaw, GA. They are very helpful in getting info out for their stuff. I've been there several times for training on their CRT/LCD projectors, but I don't ever remember that specific item. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 11:35:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Barco Chromatics CX-2000 Message-ID: It sounds like an old Chromatics graphics workstation... don't know a ton about it, but I'll bet its powered by a VME embedded SPARCengine, probably a 1+ or something... Will J _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 12:02:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021008170333.61845.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- chris wrote: > >I have several older models the 100, 110, 120, 130, and eMate 300. They > > are all really cool. > > I have just the 100, and 2 of the 110's. (but want a 130, an eMate and a > 2100, don't care much about the 120 or 2000) So what does it take to use a Newt with Winblows? Is there a good page I can go to for what software I need on the PeeCee side to back it up, and to drop new stuff on it? Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 12:03:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Richard Erlacher? Message-ID: I for one, have told my parents that should I die, I'd like my computer stuff to be donated to the Computer Museum, and whatever they don't want, should be given to RCS/RI and RICM.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 12:35:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: FYI: Kevin Mitnick's Laptop auction Message-ID: Of course, why would anyone buy the POS anyway? It must truly be great to be able to be a criminal and then profit from it! Umm, god bless america or something... *sigh* _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Oct 8 12:59:00 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor Message-ID: <044f01c26ef4$9c79d1a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hi, Just PackRatted a NCR 3400 system from a house on the next blok............. It'll be legaly on topic in 2.5 month from now Seems it could run OS2 2.0 and UNIX SRV4 It's got a Exabyte tapestreamer (propably a 8200-type) and a few SCSI HD's It's got RAM-modules with 7 chips each, which seems a rather odd number to me. In 3 Banks of 8 Modules. They look a bit like 30-pin simms .......... Does anyone know if it's value is more than a rather heavy boat-anchor Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- From cb at mythtech.net Tue Oct 8 13:00:00 2002 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons Message-ID: >So what does it take to use a Newt with Winblows? Is there a good >page I can go to for what software I need on the PeeCee side to >back it up, and to drop new stuff on it? It takes a serial cable (mini-din 8 to DE-9 or whatever you have on your PC side), and the PC Connection Kit software, which I believe is now free from Apple's web site (if not, let me know, I am sure I have it here someplace). -chris From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 13:11:01 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons Message-ID: And if Chris doesn't have it, I know I do, still new in the box even... _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 8 14:58:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: recent score :) Message-ID: <01aa01c26f05$1c2b13e0$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Ok, it's a small one, but it's wonderful to me :) I just got a case of 1/2 mag tape EOT markers :) Anyone need a pack? Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 16:15:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor In-Reply-To: <044f01c26ef4$9c79d1a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20021008211657.63106.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sipke de Wal wrote: > Hi, > > Just PackRatted a NCR 3400 system from a house > on the next blok............. Not the thing you typically find in a residential area... > It'll be legaly on topic in 2.5 month from now Close enough for me. > Seems it could run OS2 2.0 and UNIX SRV4 I used to work in a group at Lucent (in Columbus, OH) that maintained Suns and NCR 34xx machines. How many MicroChannel SCSI cards does yours have? Ethernet? > Does anyone know if it's value is more than > a rather heavy boat-anchor If you want to run multi-processor UNIX (NCR's MP-RAS) on what are probably P-90 chips, it's a fine little beast. Otherwise, it's an I/O-heavy desktop machine. A giant PeeCee, really. I was told that you could stick in a DOS boot floppy and play DOOM on one. Never got the chance, though. :-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 16:21:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Update suggestion for Zane Healy's ModuleList.txt Message-ID: <20021008212211.99023.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Zane (and anyone else who is keeps DEC module lists), I was looking up the functionality of a board set I got off eBay recently (three auctions for the three boards from an H220 "MM8-E") and notice that for the H212/MM8-EJ, you list G??? as the core stack. Having just looked it up in the maintenance prints (B-DD-MM8EJ-B), it's the G646, which you have listed, but not listed as part of the MM8-EJ. I can confirm that the G646 _is_ part of the H212/MM8-EJ. You may "connect the dots" in the Module List. -ethan (now all I need is a working circuit breaker and I can test my "new" H220!) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 8 16:48:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Update suggestion for Zane Healy's ModuleList.txt In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 08, 2002 02:22:11 PM Message-ID: <200210082149.g98LnhU06116@shell1.aracnet.com> > Zane (and anyone else who is keeps DEC module lists), In case anyone is wondering: ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/ModuleList.txt The list is for non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus cards, and it started out as a list combining all of the PDP-8 card lists that are out there (each of which had at least some different data). > I can confirm that the G646 _is_ part of the H212/MM8-EJ. You may > "connect the dots" in the Module List. > > -ethan Many thanks! I just updated it. Zane From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Oct 8 17:48:00 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 Want List - Message-ID: The 11/44 I rescued is actually two complete systems in one rack. Last night I got around to turning up the other system, and was greeted by the snapping of circuit breakers and the blowing of fuses.. aaahhrg! Anyway, the H7140 power supply wanted some TLC which it got, but when recieved, the 'B' system was minus it's Data Paths card, and there were two spares among all the doc and other stuff, one labled "bad board". Neither of the two spares work in the 'good' system, and the one from the good system allows the monitor to sign on, but giving a ??CP HUNG result. so I have some bus grant/NPG jumer work to do - not a problem. What IS a problem is that I need one (or two) fuctioning M7904 cards to make it work, as a printset for the individual CPU cards seems not be included in the stack I got. I am also in the market for two or three DD11-CK Single Backplane assy's. Then, another couple of RL02 drives would round out things. I have found a nice 9trk subsystem. I know it's useless to ask about a Unibus SCSI card, so it's possible that I'll end up buying one... yuk. Hmmm... come to think of it, an RX02 might be fun, in case of software finds on Floppies. I will be brining the working system to VCF 5, as well as (possibly) a PR1ME 750. I will be in wheel/deal mode then... I'd like to hear back from folks who might have some of the above wanted hardware, who will be at VCF - we can make a deal and do gthe exchange at Moffet Field. All for now... Cheers John From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 8 18:48:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC Find Message-ID: <012b01c26f25$51261ac0$1c010240@oemcomputer> Today at auction I purchased from another bidder the following: A black metal HHC MINI I/O (RL-6002) unit (first I have seen) with Hand Held computer (RL-H1800) and HHC Color Plotter (RL-P1002) mounted to it. Panasonic ac adapter RD-9498 first one I have seen. A Brown leather case for the HHC also my first. A HHC Printer/Cassette adapter P1004. Instruction booklet for the HHC models RL-H1000, RL-H1400, and RL-H1800. A box with 5 Thermal paper rolls for the printer - New. Several tubes full of plotter pens from Tandy for the plotter. I purchased four pallets of computers and related stuff for $2.50 plus 10%. I have not completed listing all the stuff but will update ;list after I get it done. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 8 20:13:34 2002 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <005701c26a0f$2b83b220$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> References: <005701c26a0f$2b83b220$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <200210021806540535.A39850CC@192.168.42.129> Hi, Jay, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 02-Oct-02 at 07:28 Jay West wrote: >Someone was going to throw out a known working SCSI drive here... I >figured it was worthless, but then I am sometimes amazed at the more >"modern" hard drives that some on the list want. I seem to recall some of >the microvax or amiga type people look for this kind of stuff... > >Seagate ST12400N, definitely known to be working. I believe it's a 1gb >SCSI drive. If anyone wants it, let me know, if not, I'll pitch it. Actually, that's a 2.2 gig drive. The 12400N is an early Hawk series, very popular with the Sun 'lunchbox' systems. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From mark at ecl.us Tue Oct 8 20:14:30 2002 From: mark at ecl.us (Mark Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Semicon Cross Ref help needed In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5126FD4@MAIL10> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E5126FD4@MAIL10> Message-ID: <1034017802.703.22.camel@Glass> Found some specs which should help to cross it GE D44C1 Vce Max = 40 Veb Max = 5 Ic Max = 4 Amps Power Max = 30 Watts Junction Temp Max = 150 Degrees C Freq Resp = 50 MHz Cuttoff = 10 uA at Vcb=40 Hfe=37 at .2 Amps GE D41D1 Vce Max = 45 Veb Max = 5 Ic Max = 1 Amp Power Max = 6 Watts Jumction Temp Max = 150 Degrees C Freq Resp = 150 MHz Cuttoff = 100 nA at Vcb=45 Hfe=88 at .1 Amp Mark On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 11:34, Cini, Richard wrote: > Hello, all: > > I got my hands on an unpopulated S100 motherboard by Vector > Electronics and I want to put it together for testing purposes. It's an > active-terminated board and I'm having trouble finding equivalent parts for > two transistors: > > NPN power: GE D44C1 or NSI D44C4 (TO-220) > PNP power: GE D41D1 or NSI D45C4 (TO-202)(NSI is National > Semiconductor) > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Rich > From vance at neurotica.com Tue Oct 8 20:14:36 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: VirtualPC for OS/2 Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with Connectix VirtualPC for OS/2? Peace... Sridhar From 520055239069-0001 at t-online.de Tue Oct 8 20:14:53 2002 From: 520055239069-0001 at t-online.de (Harald Husemann) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 Message-ID: <02100802345701.00810@dh9dat-w> Hi folks, I just 'won' an old HP Apollo 700 Series, Model 735/125. Unfortunately, I don't have ANY information about it - searching HP's website took me to the service manual, so I know a little bit more about it now. By searching the web, I've learned that I can use a standard PC-VGA monitor with the apollo, by soldering (or buying, :-( ) a special cable. But, a few questions remain: - Anyone has a PIN-layout for the monitor cable? I know that I have to solder red to red VGA, red ground to red ground, and so on, but I don't know the pinout of the VGA connector... Maybe anyone did this before, and can tell me the correct PIN-to-PIN assignments?! - Can I use a standard PC keyboard with the Apollo? It just has a so-called "HPIL"-connector on the back, and I don't have such a keyboard... - What about a mouse? Unfortunately, I just got the machine, and nothing else... - My Apollo doesn't have a standard LAN-connector, just an AUI... But, I saw it has a EISA slot, and the manual told me that EISA is fully compliat to ISA (didn't know this before...). So, can I just equip the Apollo with one of my old ISA Novell/ Eagle-cards? There's an EISA card in the slot, but this seems to be a Token Ring (it's called a "Ring" card) Sorry if my questions are a little bit stupid, but I don't know anything about the machine - just got it from dumpster without any additional informatins, and thought it would be nice to use it. Thanks for your help, I'm glad that there is a mailing list dealing with this systems - thought I've just got > 10kg of old iron, when I start searching the web, :-) keep on hackin', Harald (bofh@dh9dat.de) From gil at vauxelectronics.com Tue Oct 8 20:15:05 2002 From: gil at vauxelectronics.com (gil smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021007231016.0079c340@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi folks: I am new to the classiccmp list. I am an EE, and collect teletype machines and HP test gear. My first computer was an RCA VIP 1802-based board. My second was an Apple II. I got to play with some bigger stuff when I worked at Cray Research a decade ago. But I digress. I have also been collecting HP 85 computer stuff (85A, 85B, 3"/5"/8" drives, roms, cards...), and I just got a 9915A, which is the industrial version of the HP 85A (cpu-only in a half-rack box). This 9915A does not have the tape drive (option 001), but has the operator interface card (opt 002), which provides connectors for keyboard (DB-25F), control (DB-15F), and video (BNC). The problem is, I have no keyboard, monitor, or documentation of any sort for the 9915. I have most of the useful 85 docs (short of the service manual), but nothing on the 9915. Judging from the number of pcb connections to the keyboard connector, I'd guess it uses a special parallel keyboard. I found reference to a 98155A keyboard in a post about a 9915B (85B-compatible), and I presume that is the same keyboard used with the A version. I hooked the video up to the composite input of a tv, and saw text and graphics when I ran the self-test from the front-panel buttons of the 9915. The image seemed wider than the screen, and I'm not sure if is just my tv adjustment, or if the video signal is not quite ntsc composite. As for the control connector, I have no idea what that might be used for. There is also a little board inside that has eight sockets, four of which are populated with 2732 eproms. I am wondering whether this is part of the cpu system, or if it is for embedded program storage like the programmable rom card for the 85. I presume that I can hook up a disk with an hp-ib card (and rom), so it should be usable once I find a keyboard and appropriate monitor. Anyone have any docs/info/tidbits/keyboard...? thanks, gil smith ;----------------------------------------------------------- ; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 ; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) ;----------------------------------------------------------- From jwest at imail.kwcorp.com Tue Oct 8 20:15:21 2002 From: jwest at imail.kwcorp.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: scsi drive + misc. other stuff (free pentium machines & 10 year rule/windows) Message-ID: <018001c26aee$29508a20$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From dogbert at mindless.com Tue Oct 8 20:15:47 2002 From: dogbert at mindless.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> <043d01c26b3e$5280eac0$1301090a@jkearney.com> <3D9D0A84.FA0154BB@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3D9D2B69.5040503@mindless.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Jim Kearney wrote: >> >> > > > >>I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum >>(http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) >> >> > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its >stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware >as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but >I guess it is an "Intel" museum. > >Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far >behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad >comment just to read about the products that were >way behind, and still are, the excellence of other >products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been >produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major >accomplishment. > Harsh! :) Guess it depends on what you mean by "far behind from a technical point of view." If you mean that x86 is an ugly legacy architecture, with not nearly enough registers, an instruction set which doesn't fit any reasonable pipeline, that's ugly to decode and not particularly orthogonal, that from purely technical reasons ought to have died a timely death in 1990, I'd have to agree. However, look at the performance. P4 is up near the top of the tree with the best RISC CPUs, which have the advantage of clean design and careful evolution. It surely takes a great deal of inspiration, creativity, and engineering talent to take something as ill-suited as the x86 architecture and get this kind of performance out of it. IMHO. In other words, making x86 fast must be a lot like getting Dumbo off the air. That ought to count as some kind of technical achievement. :) Imagine if the same amount of effort was applied to a sensible machine, like MIPS, Alpha, or ARM! Or even a 64 bit-wide Z80 :) -- Ross > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail >address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk >e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be >obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the >'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > > > > From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 20:16:06 2002 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (lee courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Looking for 9trk drive In-Reply-To: <2928.4.20.168.172.1033754991.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20021004212004.19412.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> Eric, I'm looking for a 9 track tape drive for my 750 - have one available? Thanks. Lee Courtney --- Eric Smith wrote: > > I am in the market for a DEC TE16 or Kennedy > 9300 working drive with > > Unibus formatter card and cables. > [...] > > This is for an 11/44 system. > > The TE16 is a Massbus drive, so you would need an > RH11 Massbus adapter > to use it. > > I've got s spare TE16, but I don't have a spare > RH11. Let me > know if you want the TE16. > > I've got some other tape drives that might be > available, including > a few Kennedy 9100s, but no 9300. > > Eric > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From vance at neurotica.com Tue Oct 8 20:16:24 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years In-Reply-To: <000201c26c1c$20ad2f20$177ba8c0@ne2.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: Speaking of pen-based machines, I think I have an IBM ThinkPad 710T squirreled away somewhere. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Hey Bob.I've got 2 prototype (working) NEC VersaPads (they actually say > NEC Autograph on them). It's was a slick machine, our company > SystemSoft was developing the PCMCIA for NEC. Not to be critical 10 > years later, but the NEC VersaPad a lousy implementation of PCMCIA (hot > swapping primarily), but it could have been our early engineering > samples. > > The other machine from that era that impressed me was the NCR 3125. > http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/ncr_3125/ > Out of all the pen machine built in 1992-1994, I think the 3125 or the > AT&T Safari machine were the biggest sellers (not that pen machines were > big sellers). > > I never realized the VersaPad was never released..or that PenPoint ran > on it. I would love to try it though. > After GO went under I really regret (now) throwing out the PenPoint SDK, > documentation, diskettes etc. > > I've an IBM pen computer that runs PenPoint and I really think it was > much better then Windows for Pen Computing by far. I've always wanted a > Momenta pen system - anyone have one? Momenta burned through $40M in VC > money.until the dotcom era, that was the biggest disaster that VCs ever > had. > > -Chandra > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Bob Shannon > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 6:41 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Penpoint! was Re: 10 years > > People actually remember Penpoint! > > I'm afraid I had a small hand in 'killing' Penpoint. > > Back when I worked at NEC, we had done a lot of work on a tablet-based > portable PC called > a VersaPad. The VersaPad was a fairly slick little 486SX based machine > with a paper-white > mono VGA display and a MicroTouch digitizer. It used an active, > RF-linked 'pen' stylus with > mouse-like buttons, etc. > > You had your choice of operating systems, Microsoft's Windows for Pen > Computing, a hacked > up version of Windows 3.11, or Go's Penpoint, a strange OS that was > centered around the idea of > an electronic book. > > I was sent from NEC to Go's offices, along with a BIOS engineer, to > assist Go Inc. in their efforts > to port Penpoint for the VersaPad. Given this assignement, I sat down > with a prototype and a stack > of PenPoint documentation. As strange as Penpoint was (to me) at the > time, I found it easy to learn > despite the gesture-recognisers inability to deal with my nearly > unreadable handwriting style. > > But then things got ugly. > > The VersaPad had 2 PCMCIA slots, and Penpoint supported an array of > smart card, flash and SRAM > cards. Penpoint had absolutley no concept of a physical volume or > device name, so when you inserted > a PCMCIA card, a small book-like icon appeared on a GUI 'shelf'. > > Apparently the VersaPad was the only Penpoint machine that supported 2 > PCMCIA slots, something Go > had never forseen in their low-level O/S design. This was a feature > thought to be critical for a major customer > who had asked NEC to develop the strange little VersaPad machine in the > first place. > > Turns out I could pop a card into slot 0, and get its icon as normal. I > could then pop a second card into slot > 1 and see another 'book' icon appear. But when I removed the first card > and its icon disappeared, the identical > icon for the card in slot 0 slid down the 'shelf' into the position that > had held the icon for the card I'd just removed. > > Re-inserting the card in slot 0 now generated an icon on the OPPOSITE > side of the icon for the slot 1 card, so > there was no way to relate either PCMCIA card icon to either physical > slot, as the GUI presentation depended > on the order of insertion. The way this OS worked, with 2 PCMCIA slots, > you were sure to delete files from > the wrong physical volume, or not know which physical bit of media > actually held your data. It was nasty. > > When this bug was replicated by the NEC BIOS enginer on the trip with > me, we reported this bizzare bug to Go's team. > Later that day, 90% of the engineers we were sent to support were called > into 'urgent' meetings. > > In the end, Go's assesement was that Penpoint would have to be > fundementally re-engineered to fix this issue. The changes needed would > be to dramatic that the project was canceled. This was a bug they just > could not fix, and > without the ability to use a PCMCIA modem and data-card, NEC's customer > for the VersaPad would be forced to abandon the Penpoint application and > retool for a Windows for Pen Computing application. The result of this, > and some really major issues with early Ni-MHD battery cells was enough > to kill the complete VersaPad project. > > A few VersaPad's still exist, and I probably even have a copy of > Penpoint, a tragically flawed Penpoint mind you, for these rare beasts. > I had a small stack of VersaPads, and recently sold some at the MIT > flea-market to people wanting to use them as controllers for mobile > robots. > > If there is any real interest, I'll go dig one out and see if one of the > 2 remaining machines has Penpoint still installed. > > Anyway, I was not to happy Penpoint went away. I think I would prefer > Penpoint as an O/S for my MobilePro 450 over Windows CE, but it has been > a long time since I've used either one. > > Say, how old is a NEC MobilePro anyway? Hmm, nope, thats off-topic! > > Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Patrick Rigney wrote: > Now that's what I call collectible. I really wish I still had > my EO 440... > :-( > I have one ;) > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > > Very cool... is it still working? I'd love to see pix; many memories. > I > > > worked for Go shortly before they merged back together with Eo and > then... > > > "went". --Patrick > > > > > > > > > > > From stefan at softhome.net Tue Oct 8 20:16:32 2002 From: stefan at softhome.net (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Help needed with MicroVAX 3400 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021006154823.0226ca90@pop.softhome.net> Hi there, I have here a MicroVAX 3400 with Ultrix 4.5 on it. All seems to be running fine, except from the fact that I cant seem to get any action from the ethernet port. I myself think its dead but I thought I'd ask here before I'd give it totally up. The network card is detected but no lights go on, neither can I do anything on the network or does it show any connection on the hub. I can ping localhost and the ip address i gave it, thats how far it goes. If i want to ping anything else it says, network not reachable (or something like that). Anybody any ideas ?? yours, Stefan. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 20:16:39 2002 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Free in LA: TK50's - DEC Manuals - Commodore Pet - Dell P120 - Jaz Drives Message-ID: <20021007003601.41601.qmail@web9402.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Eliot, I'd be very interested in the PET, if you still have it. I didn't see any contact info in your post. I would be grateful if you emailed me with your email or phone#. Thanks, David. -- dfnr2@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 8 20:16:56 2002 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Shameless Plug Alert Message-ID: <200210061909370235.B86AE10E@192.168.42.129> Hi, folks, Here's another shameless plug. I've posted a bunch of older DEC docs on E-pay, among them some engineering drawing sets for the PDP-11/05S and 11/10S, the MF11-U core memory system, and some various other books and goodies. There's also a KFQSA DSSI controller. All starting cheap, no reserve on anything. I'm not going to include all eight links here. Just pop over to Ebay and do a seller search for 'bftbell' (sans the quotes) if you're interested. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 8 20:17:05 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Remington Rand card punch and printer needed Message-ID: Can anyone help Andy? If so, please reply to him directly. Reply-to: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:18:05 -0400 From: andy.egendorf Subject: Remington Rand I am working with the Rowayton Historical Society in Rowayton Connecticut, which is putting together artifacts for display concerning what is generally considered the first commercially available business computer - the Remington Rand 409 series (1951). We are trying to locate a source to enable us to punch a few dozen cards in Remington Rand format (90 column, round holes), and a source which can print on the cards the data punched into the cards. Both manual and powered punches were manufactured, but we have not been able to locate anything, even in museums. Similarly, we have been unable to locate any printer that could be used. This card format was used into the 60s, and maybe survived into the 70s or later, so there certainly ought to be something out there. Thanks, Andy Egendorf -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bennyb at ntplx.net Tue Oct 8 20:17:13 2002 From: bennyb at ntplx.net (Ben Bridgwater) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? Message-ID: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> I've just acquired an old Processor Technology SOL-20, and wonder if anyone can advise on what video monitors are compatible with it (how about an old IBM monochrome monitor - hercules compatible?), and what the video connector on the back is (huge 1/2" dia. coax connector) - are the mating connectors still available? Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone has done the same with any success? Thanks, Ben From 520055239069-0001 at t-online.de Tue Oct 8 20:17:25 2002 From: 520055239069-0001 at t-online.de (Harald Husemann) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Re-post: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 Message-ID: <02100900422000.00809@dh9dat-w> Hi folks, just excuse if this msg. is posted twice, but I've subscribed to the list yesterday, and sent the msg. right after subscribing. Although, didn't saw it in the list... So, please apologize if you got it twice! I just 'won' an old HP Apollo 700 Series, Model 735/125. Unfortunately, I don't have ANY information about it - searching HP's website took me to the service manual, so I know a little bit more about it now. By searching the web, I've learned that I can use a standard PC-VGA monitor with the apollo, by soldering (or buying, :-( ) a special cable. But, a few questions remain: - Anyone has a PIN-layout for the monitor cable? I know that I have to solder red to red VGA, red ground to red ground, and so on, but I don't know the pinout of the VGA connector... Maybe anyone did this before, and can tell me the correct PIN-to-PIN assignments?! (of course, I could search the web for the pinout, but I'm also interested in experiences with this special case) - Can I use a mouse? Unfortunately, I just got the machine, and nothing else... But, I found articles dealing with X-Windows, so I think a mouse should be supported... - My Apollo doesn't have a standard LAN-connector, just an AUI... I saw it has a EISA slot, and the manual told me that EISA is fully compliat to ISA (didn't know this before...). So, can I just equip the Apollo with one of my old ISA Novell/ Eagle-cards? (Of course, drivers would be a problem - but I plan to use NetBSD or maybe Linux, so I think I'll find one.) There's an EISA card in the slot, but this seems to be a Token Ring (it's called a "Ring" card) Sorry if my questions are a little bit stupid, but I don't know anything about the machine - just got it from dumpster without any additional informatins, and thought it would be nice to use it. Thanks for your help, I'm glad that there is a mailing list dealing with this systems - thought I've just got > 10kg of old iron, when I start searching the web, :-) keep on hackin', Harald (bofh@dh9dat.de) ------------------------------------------------------- From vance at neurotica.com Tue Oct 8 20:17:38 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons In-Reply-To: <00c301c26e71$1ef9ea90$d9000240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: That eMate 300. Is that the laptop-formfactor (sort of) green machine with no moving parts? Those things rocked. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Keys wrote: > I have several older models the 100, 110, 120, 130, and eMate 300. They are > all really cool. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Honniball" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:55 PM > Subject: Re: 10 years > > > > > > Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? > > > > Yes, I have one: a MessagePad model H1000. I also have an > > Amstrad PenPad PDA 600, an HP OmniGo, a Philips Nino and > > a Microwriter AgendA. > > > > Ooops, the Newton's only nine years old; I claim "cool factor"! > > > > -- > > John Honniball > > coredump@gifford.co.uk > > > From vance at neurotica.com Tue Oct 8 20:17:55 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: DEC SDI Drives Message-ID: Does anyone have any DEC RA7X drives they would be willing to let go real cheap? Size doesn't really matter all that much. Peace... Sridhar From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 8 20:18:12 2002 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: HP 7980S scsi 9-track In-Reply-To: <43443.64.169.63.74.1033626529.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721469BD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <200210020630010536.A11A5529@192.168.42.129> <43443.64.169.63.74.1033626529.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200210081608580522.C21213F3@192.168.42.129> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 02-Oct-02 at 23:28 Eric Smith wrote: >Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >>>Does anyone have info on this beastie? I'm trying to convince it to be >>> nice to me and lock itself to 1600bpi, but it doesn't wanna play... :( > >Bruce Lane wrote: >> I had an 88170 at one time. > >An 88780, probably. Right you are. Brain fart there... >> Bear in mind that you'll need some fairly specialized (and expensive -- >> in the $300 region) software if you want to use that drive on any sort >> of PC. > >Someone should have warned me about that before I started using one with >no special software whatsoever. :-) Let me rephrase that. On any sort of PC with a Windoze operating system. ;-) Yes, any *nix should be able to handle them just fine. Sorry, I should have made that clearer. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From gil at vauxelectronics.com Tue Oct 8 20:18:30 2002 From: gil at vauxelectronics.com (gil smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021008161822.00915c70@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi folks: I am new to the classiccmp list. I am an EE, and collect teletype machines and HP test gear. My first computer was an RCA VIP 1802-based board. My second was an Apple II. I got to play with some bigger stuff when I worked at Cray Research a decade ago. But I digress. I have also been collecting HP 85 computer stuff (85A, 85B, 3"/5"/8" drives, roms, cards...), and I just got a 9915A, which is the industrial version of the HP 85A (cpu-only in a half-rack box). This 9915A does not have the tape drive (option 001), but has the operator interface card (opt 002), which provides connectors for keyboard (DB-25F), control (DB-15F), and video (BNC). The problem is, I have no keyboard, monitor, or documentation of any sort for the 9915. I have most of the useful 85 docs (short of the service manual), but nothing on the 9915. Judging from the number of pcb connections to the keyboard connector, I'd guess it uses a special parallel keyboard. I found reference to a 98155A keyboard in a post about a 9915B (85B-compatible), and I presume that is the same keyboard used with the A version. I hooked the video up to the composite input of a tv, and saw text and graphics when I ran the self-test from the front-panel buttons of the 9915. The image seemed wider than the screen, and I'm not sure if is just my tv adjustment, or if the video signal is not quite ntsc composite. As for the control connector, I have no idea what that might be used for. There is also a little board inside that has eight sockets, four of which are populated with 2732 eproms. I am wondering whether this is part of the cpu system, or if it is for embedded program storage like the programmable rom card for the 85. I presume that I can hook up a disk with an hp-ib card (and rom), so it should be usable once I find a keyboard and appropriate monitor. Anyone have any docs/info/tidbits/keyboard...? thanks, gil smith ;----------------------------------------------------------- ; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 ; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) ;----------------------------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 8 20:20:01 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons In-Reply-To: from "vance@neurotica.com" at "Oct 8, 2 06:12:54 pm" Message-ID: <200210090130.SAA28016@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > That eMate 300. Is that the laptop-formfactor (sort of) green machine > with no moving parts? Those things rocked. They sure did. Mine has a cracked LCD. :-( -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Since we're all here, we must not be all there. -- Bob "Mountain" Beck ----- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 8 20:22:00 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <3D9D2B69.5040503@mindless.com> from Ross Archer at "Oct 3, 2 10:47:21 pm" Message-ID: <200210090132.SAA30608@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Imagine if the same amount of effort was applied > to a sensible machine, like MIPS, Alpha, or ARM! Or PowerPC :-) > Or even a 64 bit-wide Z80 :) I'd like a 64-bit 6502 myself. Someone is working on a 32-bit one, however. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Oct 8 20:27:00 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: DEC SDI Drives References: Message-ID: <003601c26f33$2ccef0d0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:27 AM Subject: DEC SDI Drives > > Does anyone have any DEC RA7X drives they would be willing to let go real > cheap? Size doesn't really matter all that much. I have some RA70's (250mb). I have a few 240v RA90's as well. Though getting them to you in working order might be a problem from here. I've already struck a snag trying to send a q-bus board to a guy in the states, I've had to resort to wrapping the antistat bag in 2mm sheet lead, (we have a lead smelter here ;^) as the US xray or irradiate every damn thing. It's a rare board so not taking any chances. Geoff in Oz From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 8 20:28:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? References: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> Message-ID: <017201c26f33$5dac3fa0$1c010240@oemcomputer> That's a great find, it's one of the big one's on my want list. I can't find any MN or TX. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Bridgwater" To: "CCTech" Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 1:23 PM Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? > I've just acquired an old Processor Technology SOL-20, and wonder if > anyone can advise on what video monitors are compatible with it (how > about an old IBM monochrome monitor - hercules compatible?), and what > the video connector on the back is (huge 1/2" dia. coax connector) - are > the mating connectors still available? > > Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu > of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone > has done the same with any success? > > Thanks, > > Ben > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 8 20:30:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons References: Message-ID: <017c01c26f33$859b2df0$1c010240@oemcomputer> Yes it is. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Keys" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: Re: 10 years - Old Newtons > > That eMate 300. Is that the laptop-formfactor (sort of) green machine > with no moving parts? Those things rocked. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Keys wrote: > > > I have several older models the 100, 110, 120, 130, and eMate 300. They are > > all really cool. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Honniball" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:55 PM > > Subject: Re: 10 years > > > > > > > > > > Patrick Rigney wrote: > > > > Speaking of which... somebody must have a Newton??? > > > > > > Yes, I have one: a MessagePad model H1000. I also have an > > > Amstrad PenPad PDA 600, an HP OmniGo, a Philips Nino and > > > a Microwriter AgendA. > > > > > > Ooops, the Newton's only nine years old; I claim "cool factor"! > > > > > > -- > > > John Honniball > > > coredump@gifford.co.uk > > > > > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 8 20:32:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: 10 years - Old Newtons References: <200210090130.SAA28016@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <018a01c26f33$e32ede30$1c010240@oemcomputer> Has anyone else seen the pink and purple models? They were done up for a special show. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:30 PM Subject: Re: 10 years - Old Newtons > > That eMate 300. Is that the laptop-formfactor (sort of) green machine > > with no moving parts? Those things rocked. > > They sure did. Mine has a cracked LCD. :-( > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Since we're all here, we must not be all there. -- Bob "Mountain" Beck ----- > From apple at cmc.net Tue Oct 8 20:39:00 2002 From: apple at cmc.net (Jack Noble) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:50 2005 Subject: OSI disk basic disk References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146EAD@BUSH02> Message-ID: <00a501c26f34$d1adb540$3b0fbbd0@oemcomputer> Lee, First let me thank you for inspiring me to dust off my old C4P. It required the usual backplane cleaning and chip reseating but lo and behold it's working again. It has an 80 track DD 3.5 inch drive so I've made you a copy of OS65D 3.3 along with some of Rich Tretheway's operating system enhancements. Let me have your address and I'll put it in the mail. I suppose it should be easier to email you the "disk image" but trust me when I say that you will get it sooner if I mail it to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davison, Lee" To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:31 AM Subject: RE: OSI disk basic disk > > >> Does anyone have an image of the OSI Disk BASIC disk? > > > Did they actually have anything called "Disk BASIC"? When > > I used OSI systems, they had two operating systems, OS-65/D > > and OS-65/U (not sure of the punctuation in those). > > There was advertised, at least in the UK, a disk expansion > (OSI 610) that included 12k disk BASIC on disk. From what > I remember if you got the fully populated expansion (24k) > and had the full complement of RAM on the CPU (8k) you had > 19000 and something bytes free after loading the disk BASIC. > > > OS-65/D was what was normally found on smaller systems. > > It was a pathetic excuse for an operating system. > > Now I've gone to the trouble of building the hardware I'd like > to try some original software on it. > > Lee. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The > service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive > anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: > http://www.star.net.uk > ________________________________________________________________________ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 8 20:53:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: VirtualPC for OS/2 In-Reply-To: from "vance@neurotica.com" at Oct 07, 2002 05:38:37 PM Message-ID: <200210090154.g991shL18028@shell1.aracnet.com> > Does anyone have experience with Connectix VirtualPC for OS/2? > > Peace... Sridhar > I don't have any experience with the version for OS/2 (I didn't even know there was one), however, I've found their product for the Mac to be excellent. Connectix VirtualPC for OS/2 looks most interesting, but way more than I care to spend. BTW, does this mean you're back on the list? If so welcome back. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 8 21:15:00 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210090132.SAA30608@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3DA3914E.7020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>Or even a 64 bit-wide Z80 :) > > > I'd like a 64-bit 6502 myself. Someone is working on a 32-bit one, however. > *** Cough gag cough *** The lovable 8 bit cpu's were designed for 8 bits only. I am a strong beliver in large word lengths but not in 7 bit character data like ASCII was. 9,10,12 bits make nice 'byte' sized data and still give reasonable memory space as 64kb we now know is too small for real use. 64kb code and data space will give you a nice but limited software basebase. B&W screen resulution of about 640 x 400 is a full 64k too. I figure a real computer needs to have a well designed instruction set and 8 bits don't cut it. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 21:29:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks Message-ID: Processor? 68020 @ 20MHz Memory? Mine has 8MB, apparently Disk capacity? Not sure, mine has a 340MB ESDI drive though Disk format parameters even? Don't know, have no manuals.. my dad bought the machine for me at an auction for a whole 5 bucks... It was marked as a "UPS" heh. Oh it appears to use a modified VME bus possibly.. not sure.. The FDD itself is a Panasonic JU-475-2, and the tape drive is a Tandberg TDC 3820 (525MB QIC-type) Will J _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 8 21:32:01 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021007231016.0079c340@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Gil, I have three or four 9915s and a keyboard. This is the only keyboard that I know of. It took me several years of looking to find it and I only found it by shear accident. I've only been able to find one or two docs for the 9915 and they're not very usefull. One was about networking 9915s, I don't remember what the other was about. More below. At 11:10 PM 10/7/02 -0700, you wrote: >Hi folks: > >I am new to the classiccmp list. I am an EE, and collect teletype machines >and HP test gear. My first computer was an RCA VIP 1802-based board. My >second was an Apple II. I got to play with some bigger stuff when I worked >at Cray Research a decade ago. But I digress. > >I have also been collecting HP 85 computer stuff (85A, 85B, 3"/5"/8" >drives, roms, cards...), and I just got a 9915A, which is the industrial >version of the HP 85A (cpu-only in a half-rack box). > >This 9915A does not have the tape drive (option 001), That's odd. EVERY 9915 that I've heard about had both option 001 and 002. I was beginning to wonder if they ever built any without the options! but has the operator >interface card (opt 002), which provides connectors for keyboard (DB-25F), >control (DB-15F), and video (BNC). The problem is, I have no keyboard, >monitor, or documentation of any sort for the 9915. I have most of the >useful 85 docs (short of the service manual), but nothing on the 9915. > >Judging from the number of pcb connections to the keyboard connector, I'd >guess it uses a special parallel keyboard. I found reference to a 98155A >keyboard in a post about a 9915B (85B-compatible), and I presume that is >the same keyboard used with the A version. I don't know what the difference is between an A and a B model. I don't recall being aware that there were two different models. I don't recall which model(s) I have. You are correct about the PN of the keyboard. I did make a schematic of my keyboard but I haven't seen it in a while. I think it got tossed in the gaint purge I had here about a year ago. > >I hooked the video up to the composite input of a tv, and saw text and >graphics when I ran the self-test from the front-panel buttons of the 9915. > The image seemed wider than the screen, and I'm not sure if is just my tv >adjustment, or if the video signal is not quite ntsc composite. You need to use the HP composite monitors. IIRC the PN is 82912 and 82913. These are used on the HP 86 and commonly used on the 9000 220 (aka 9920) and are pretty common. > >As for the control connector, I have no idea what that might be used for. I don't recall if it's input and output or only input but the 9915 can detect switch closures and take pre-programmed action. >There is also a little board inside that has eight sockets, four of which >are populated with 2732 eproms. I am wondering whether this is part of the >cpu system, or if it is for embedded program storage like the programmable >rom card for the 85. The later. There were software developement kits available that let you write programs in assembler and burn them into EPROMs that plugged into a HP-85 type plug-in cartridges (called a Hybrid ROM or something like that) or directly into the 9915. The EPROMs that are in it are probably Matrix and/or I/O ROM IIRC. That seems to be standard in the 9915s that I'm aware of. FYI The 9915 doesn't use the HP-85 custom hybrid processor but uses an Intel CPU instead! However it does use the HP-85 keyboard processor but only for the timers that it contains. > >I presume that I can hook up a disk with an hp-ib card (and rom), so it >should be usable once I find a keyboard and appropriate monitor. Correct. With the keyboard and monitor it should act exactly like a HP-85 (except your's doesn't have the tape drive). But it's a lot easier to find a HP 85, 86 or 87. Joe > >Anyone have any docs/info/tidbits/keyboard...? > >thanks, > >gil smith > > >;----------------------------------------------------------- >; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 >; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) >;----------------------------------------------------------- > From thompson at new.rr.com Tue Oct 8 21:53:01 2002 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Help needed with MicroVAX 3400 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021006154823.0226ca90@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: It would be helpful to know what sort of network card it is. What is in the output of uerf -R that might be relevant, including system startup messages? Do you have the microvax diagnostic tape (if there's a tape drive...) What shows up in netstat -i netstat -I {interface name} -s On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Stefan wrote: > Hi there, > > I have here a MicroVAX 3400 with Ultrix 4.5 on it. All seems to be running > fine, except from the fact that I cant seem to get any action from the > ethernet port. I myself think its dead but I thought I'd ask here before > I'd give it totally up. > The network card is detected but no lights go on, neither can I do anything > on the network or does it show any connection on the hub. I can ping > localhost and the ip address i gave it, thats how far it goes. If i want to > ping anything else it says, network not reachable (or something like that). > > Anybody any ideas ?? > > yours, > > Stefan. > -- From jrice54 at charter.net Tue Oct 8 21:57:07 2002 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: 10 years References: <200210030119.g931Jni17129@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3DA39667.8070207@charter.net> By the strict 10 year rule, Tandy 1000's are on-topic. I bought the first one the day before Thanksgiving 1985 on a Tandy Business lease for $2700. Included a second floppy drive, CM-4 monitor, a DMP-130 printer, Star Accounting Partner software and Friday, a simple data base program by Ashton-Tate. Friday was a menu driven program that generated dBase-II code. I still have the disks. I ran a company off the two floppies until late 1986, when the price of a 10mb hard drive dropped to about $800. My 2000 is even older. James http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Would anyone object to adding an official 'cool factor clause' to the >>10-year rule? We already sorta have that now, where a newer computer (e.g. >>mid-90s SGI MIPS) has sufficient cool factor that we're ok with it. All we >>need is a concept of negative cool factor, so that some computers (e.g. >>Packard Bell PC) might never be on-topic. >> >>In reality, this isn't any more ambiguous than what we already have. The >>other option would be to develop some sort of unit for classicity and set a >>threshold above which a machine is on-topic. >> >>Jeffrey Sharp >> >> > >I for one obviously don't have a problem with having an official 'cool >factor clause'. After all, then my DEC PWS 433au running OpenVMS would be >ontopic, as would systems such as BeBox's and the like. > >I think as a whole, systems that aren't x86 based, or Mac's that are less >than 10 years old have been considered to have suffecient 'coolness factor'. >Besides, about all that seems to cover is UNIX workstations, and OpenVMS >systems. > >Also, I think 'custom built' x86 systems that have been specifically built >to emulate older hardware, such as a PDP-10 are almost ontopic. > > Zane > > > > -- From archer at topnow.com Tue Oct 8 21:58:00 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210090132.SAA30608@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3DA39BA6.168C8C0C@topnow.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Imagine if the same amount of effort was applied > > to a sensible machine, like MIPS, Alpha, or ARM! > > Or PowerPC :-) PowerPC has both segmentation and paging. Segmentation and base-bounds is ugly dead-tech from last century which has been proven redundant when a grown-up paging mechanism is provided. May segmentation rest in (odd-sized, hard-to-manage, barely demand-swappable) pieces. :) If someone tells me you can turn off the segmentation logic in some variant of PowerPC, I might change my mind about it. :) > > > Or even a 64 bit-wide Z80 :) > > I'd like a 64-bit 6502 myself. Someone is working on a 32-bit one, however. Agreed. 6502 expanded to 32 bits would be very nice. Some changes would be needed to make it gogofast, like a good cache system and possibly a more load/store orientation and more registers. Which is pretty much what ARM is. Have you looked at the ARM instruction set? It actually has a lot of similarity to a "stretch" 6502. :) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Tue Oct 8 22:05:01 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: <02100802345701.00810@dh9dat-w> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20021008230323.00e50cf8@pop1.epm.net.co> At 02:34 AM 10/8/02 +0000, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >I just 'won' an old HP Apollo 700 Series, Model 735/125. Unfortunately, I >don't have ANY information about it - searching HP's website took me to the >service manual, so I know a little bit more about it now. >By searching the web, I've learned that I can use a standard PC-VGA monitor >with the apollo, by soldering (or buying, :-( ) a special cable. Yes, as long as the monitor can accept a sync-on-green signal (not all SuperVGA monitors do). >But, a few questions remain: >- Can I use a standard PC keyboard with the Apollo? It just has a so-called > "HPIL"-connector on the back, and I don't have such a keyboard... No, unfortunately HP-HIL (not HP-IL) keyboards are not compatible with any PC-style keyboard. >- What about a mouse? Unfortunately, I just got the machine, and nothing > else... Ditto... you need an HP-HIL mouse. >- My Apollo doesn't have a standard LAN-connector, just an AUI... But, I saw > it has a EISA slot, and the manual told me that EISA is fully compliat to > ISA (didn't know this before...). So, can I just equip the Apollo with one > of my old ISA Novell/ Eagle-cards? There's an EISA card in the slot, but > this seems to be a Token Ring (it's called a "Ring" card) The PROM only works with HP cards and some specially-made third-party cards. Your best bet is to obtain an appropriate transceiver and plug it in the AUI connector. The 735/125 is a nice machine; built like a tank and very reliable. I have one that I still use regularly. You can use wide scsi (high-voltage differential) drives with it. You need HP-UX 10.2 for it (though it has been said that a special installation of HPUX 11 will work in it, though it is not supported). It would be great if you found the keyboard and mouse; these are really nice systems. I have some more info on this system; please contact me off the list. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From sloboyko at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 22:08:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <017201c26f33$5dac3fa0$1c010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20021009030954.5307.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I'm almost certain that the video is standard, plain old NTSC RS-170, which you could probably hook up to any modern TV having a video input with a simple mechanical adapter. Much as it makes me ill to mention this, but Radio SH**, which has gotten enormously worse in just the last 3 months, probably will have an adapter to a more modern RCA for it. You MIGHT be able able to get a decent display from an RF modulator but at 64 characters by 16, it would be close. > > I've just acquired an old Processor Technology > SOL-20, and wonder if > > anyone can advise on what video monitors are > compatible with it (how > > about an old IBM monochrome monitor - hercules > compatible?), and what > > the video connector on the back is (huge 1/2" dia. > coax connector) - are > > the mating connectors still available? > > > > Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to > record/playback in lieu > > of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), > and wonder if anyone > > has done the same with any success? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ben > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Oct 8 22:50:00 2002 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: New Toy... Fujitsu Stylistic 1000 Message-ID: <200210082050.17478.rhudson@cnonline.net> Is it too new to be on subject? It's got a digitizer screen, but I got it without the pen. My stylus for my pilot doesn't seem to work, oh well I got it with a keyboard and mouse. currently running windows 98 : ^ ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 8 22:54:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Will Jennings wrote: > Disk format parameters even? Don't know, have no manuals.. my dad bought the > machine for me at an auction for a whole 5 bucks... It was marked as a "UPS" > heh. Oh it appears to use a modified VME bus possibly.. not sure.. Yep. I got a disk sent to me once to analyze that was labeled as coming from a "UPS". Gee! maybe it was from YOUR machine! :-) > The FDD itself is a Panasonic JU-475-2, That is without question a 1.2M drive. Although it is possible to use it as a 720K, we can probably assume "high density". Any details on the operating system? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 8 22:58:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: <3DA39667.8070207@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, James Rice wrote: > By the strict 10 year rule, Tandy 1000's are on-topic. I bought the > My 2000 is even older. Both the 2000 and 1000 had interesting deviations from the PC "standard". The 2000 was a "720K" 5.25" disk format. IIRC, The 1000 did not use DMA for disk I/O, somewhat like the PCJr. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 8 23:01:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yep. I got a disk sent to me once to analyze that was labeled as coming > from a "UPS". Gee! maybe it was from YOUR machine! :-) Actually, it was just labelled "UPS", so maybe it was from a United Parcel Service computer. Federal Express had their own laser printers (CX engine in a PURPLE case). From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Oct 8 23:04:00 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> Message-ID: > Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu > of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone > has done the same with any success? Just use the serial port... It's more reliable. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 8 23:05:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <200210021806540535.A39850CC@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Bruce Lane wrote: > Actually, that's a 2.2 gig drive. The 12400N is an early Hawk series, > very popular with the Sun 'lunchbox' systems. As a matter of fact, I'd like to find one of these for my Sparc LX. It came without a drive (removed because the place that owned it was paranoid). -Toth From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 23:05:19 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Help needed with reading Altos 3068 disks Message-ID: Well as for the OS, all I can say is it is a UNIX System V variant... I wish I had manuals, etc. *sigh* _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From univac2 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 8 23:06:00 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/8/02 10:59 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) at cisin@xenosoft.com wrote: > On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, James Rice wrote: > >> By the strict 10 year rule, Tandy 1000's are on-topic. I bought the >> My 2000 is even older. > > Both the 2000 and 1000 had interesting deviations from the PC "standard". > The 2000 was a "720K" 5.25" disk format. > > IIRC, > The 1000 did not use DMA for disk I/O, somewhat like the PCJr. The 1000 was designed by Tandy as a PCjr clone, but when the PCjr failed commercially, Tandy marketed it as a PC clone. So the 1000 has several similarities to the PCjr. -- Owen Robertson From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Oct 8 23:07:00 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: OSI disk basic disk In-Reply-To: <00a501c26f34$d1adb540$3b0fbbd0@oemcomputer> Message-ID: > First let me thank you for inspiring me to dust off my old C4P. It > required the usual backplane cleaning and chip reseating but lo and behold > it's working again. It has an 80 track DD 3.5 inch drive so I've made you a > copy of OS65D 3.3 along with some of Rich Tretheway's operating system > enhancements. Let me have your address and I'll put it in the mail. I > suppose it should be easier to email you the "disk image" but trust me when > I say that you will get it sooner if I mail it to you. Goodness, I'm glad you did that. My conscience has been gnawing at me to but getting the time is proving difficult. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Oct 8 23:22:00 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific's Rescued...need help/info! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Last night I rescued two Ohio Scientific systems: Congrats! > A challenger C1P and Plastic or metal case? > A Challenger II (which was a MUCH bigger box, and had a matching big, > heavy dual 8" floppy cabinet). Blue/black or tan/brown? > The haul also included an ADM-3A terminal (always wanted one of > these), and a dual 5 1/4" floppy cabinet (don't know which system > this goes to). I would like to see a picture of this. It's probably not OSI. > I got no documentation, no software or anything > (these were all picked up from a curb-side garbage pile!!)! Lucky, lucky lucky! Where? > Any pointers to documentation, software, specifications, etc?? I have lot's of docs, etc. for OSI. OSI is the principle focus of my collection. > I've read the stuff on a careful process to power-up an altair...does > this apply to these systems too (I don't have much in the way of > electronic test equipment or power supplies). OSI uses regulated supplies. Generally, they either work or they don't. I've never had one zap anything... but anyway, the 5 volt supply in the C1P is easily disconnected from the main (and only) board. Put a dummy load on it and check. 4.7 to 5.3 is cool. The Chal. II will probably have a PowerOne supply (again, very reliable in my experiance). Pull all of the cards from the "fatherboard" (you'll need to anyway, just to reestablish contact) (the order of the boards on the bus does not matter) and put dummy loads and check voltages on the following pins (counting 1 to 48, top to bottom): 23 - +12 24 - -9 25 - +5 26 - +5 27 - gnd 28 - gnd > Man...I hate to think of these classic's going landfill...... gotta > save 'em all! Contrats again! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Oct 8 23:29:00 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific's Rescued...need help/info! In-Reply-To: <21.254ecdea.2ad30354@aol.com> Message-ID: SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I have 5 C1P models including a plastic case one. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Any chance I could pry that out of your cold dead hands... Uh, I mean trade you something for that? ;-) Bill From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 8 23:38:00 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 References: <02100802345701.00810@dh9dat-w> Message-ID: <3DA3B2FB.42175615@rain.org> Harald Husemann wrote: > > - Can I use a standard PC keyboard with the Apollo? It just has a so-called > "HPIL"-connector on the back, and I don't have such a keyboard... > - What about a mouse? Unfortunately, I just got the machine, and nothing > else... I have an Apollo Keyboard and mouse assembly with a 7 pin DIN connector that looks to be about the same size as the IBM keyboard ... except more pins :). Let me know if you are interested. Otherwise it will probably show up at VCF ... or the trash. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Oct 8 23:54:00 2002 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008204706.02207a00@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 02:23 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Ben Bridgwater wrote: >I've just acquired an old Processor Technology SOL-20, and wonder if >anyone can advise on what video monitors are compatible with it (how about >an old IBM monochrome monitor - hercules compatible?), and what the video >connector on the back is (huge 1/2" dia. coax connector) - are the mating >connectors still available? > >Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu of >a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone has >done the same with any success? > >Thanks, > >Ben It should hook up to any monitor that you might find in north america, BW preferrably. The only weirdness is the PL59 connector, so you may have to build a PL59 to BNC or what-have-you cable to connect it to your monitor. I picked up a 9" B&W security monitor for $10 at a swap meet and it has worked just fine. Here's where I get to plug my web site: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html You may want to seek out the section on repairing the keyboard. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Oct 8 23:54:28 2002 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: What video monitor for SOL-20? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008205452.03330380@postoffice.pacbell.net> Duh, memory fades ... PL259! >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >From: Jim Battle >Subject: Re: What video monitor for SOL-20? > >At 02:23 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Ben Bridgwater wrote: >>I've just acquired an old Processor Technology SOL-20, and wonder if >>anyone can advise on what video monitors are compatible with it (how >>about an old IBM monochrome monitor - hercules compatible?), and what the >>video connector on the back is (huge 1/2" dia. coax connector) - are the >>mating connectors still available? >> >>Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu >>of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone has >>done the same with any success? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Ben > >It should hook up to any monitor that you might find in north america, BW >preferrably. The only weirdness is the PL59 connector, so you may have to >build a PL59 to BNC or what-have-you cable to connect it to your >monitor. I picked up a 9" B&W security monitor for $10 at a swap meet and >it has worked just fine. > >Here's where I get to plug my web site: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html > >You may want to seek out the section on repairing the keyboard. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From red at bears.org Tue Oct 8 23:59:00 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: <3DA3B2FB.42175615@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > - Can I use a standard PC keyboard with the Apollo? It just has a so-called > > "HPIL"-connector on the back, and I don't have such a keyboard... > > - What about a mouse? Unfortunately, I just got the machine, and nothing > > else... > > I have an Apollo Keyboard and mouse assembly with a 7 pin DIN connector > that looks to be about the same size as the IBM keyboard ... except more > pins :). Let me know if you are interested. Otherwise it will probably > show up at VCF ... or the trash. It's not useful with any of the HP9000 700-series, as it's not HP-HIL either. I already gave away all my spare HIL keyboards and mice, but I can keep an eye out for more. There are four variations of Apollo keyboards. They work on Apollo DN-series workstations, or HP9000 400-series running DOMAIN (i.e. not HP-UX). KBD1 is big and clunky. It's dark colored, with light typewriter keys and dark function keys. It shipped with the early 'dishwasher' nodes, like the DN100 and DN400. KBD2 is low-profile, and has black function keys numbered F1-F8. It shipped with the DN300. KBD3 is low-profile, and has grey function keys numbered F0-F9. These shipped with the DN3000, DN3500, et al. Apparently sometimes it doesn't work with the X11R4 server. KBD4 has two alt keys on either side of the space bar, and is the only keyboard supported if you are running X11R4. It shipped with the HP9000 400-series systems. Marvin, if your keyboard is any of these besides KBD3, I could use it. ok r. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 00:25:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Did a listmember get this "PDP-11/44" (really a *loaded* PDP-8/a) Message-ID: <20021009052637.95979.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> I was perusing alt.sys.pdp11 via deja.com recently, and ran across a posting offering a "PDP-11/44" for sale... http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&start=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.sys.pdp11&safe=off&selm=3D7426A6.3040303%40nospaminsight.rr.com I'm sure that message will hit a line break, so be sure to reconnect it when you cut-and-paste. To make it easy of folks, let me quote the contents... "The system has the following cards in it M8300, M8310, M8316, 3 x M8319, M8320, M8330,M8357, M8416, 2 x M8417, M8433." ... plus an RL02, RX02, 18 RL01Ks, boxes of floppies, docs, etc... The astute reader will quickly notice that those are *not* PDP-11 handle numbers. It's a PDP-8/a with KK8E processor, KT8A, DKC8-AA, RL8A, RK8E, KL8A and a wad of RAM. Even better, it was in Columbus, about four miles from my farm. The bad news is that I learned about it three weeks too late. It did not get scrapped; it sold. I'm curious if any of us got it, and if someone here did, if they could make images of the RL01s and floppies available. Wish I could have gotten it, but the hardware is nothing I don't already have, so hopefully it went to a good home. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Oct 9 00:27:00 2002 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008222342.02205020@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 02:23 PM 10/8/02 -0400, Ben Bridgwater wrote: >I've just acquired an old Processor Technology SOL-20, ... >Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu of >a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone has >done the same with any success? I've been using the serial port to send/receive programs. Using a tape has met with mixed success. Besides, the tape peaks at 1200 baud, while the serial port should be able to go higher than that. An interesting experiment would be to convert some of the .ENT format program files from my web site and use one of the programs here: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~edsa/ to convert it to a .WAV file. I haven't tried it myself, but it should work pretty well. I've tried Ed's program to decode a .WAV file back to binary, but it hasn't worked at all on real recordings. It works fine on the .WAV files that Ed's programs generate, though. And for those of you who don't care about Sol's, the programs mentioned above supposedly work for any tapes recorded in KCS format. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 9 01:29:00 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: References: <3DA3B2FB.42175615@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021008233130.04f05c40@mail.zipcon.net> At 01:00 AM 10/9/02 -0400, you wrote: >It's not useful with any of the HP9000 700-series, as it's not HP-HIL >either. I already gave away all my spare HIL keyboards and mice, but I can >keep an eye out for more. Please do! I have a apollo series 700 and could use a KB and mouse, especially if you happen to come across one cheap :) From jkunz at maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 9 04:06:01 2002 From: jkunz at maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: <02100802345701.00810@dh9dat-w> References: <02100802345701.00810@dh9dat-w> Message-ID: <20021009091647.GA10853@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 02:34:57AM +0000, Harald Husemann wrote: > I just 'won' an old HP Apollo 700 Series, Model 735/125. 1. The "Apollo" in the name is only the fart of a marketing droid. Apollo was long gone and dead when this machine was build. The more correct name for this thing is HP 9000 735/125. It is a HP PA-RISC 7100, 125 MHz based machine, not M68k as the Apollos. It is a nice machine and the PA-RISC CPUs have a lot of bang for the MHz. You can run HP-UX, NetBSD or Linux on it: http://www.parisc-linux.org/ http://www.debian.org/ports/hppa/ NetBSD, the OS of my choice, is on the way, but not that far as Linux: http://www.de.netbsd.org/Ports/hp700/ > - Anyone has a PIN-layout for the monitor cable? I know that I have to solder > red to red VGA, red ground to red ground, and so on, but I don't know the > pinout of the VGA connector... http://www.hardwarebook.net/ more precise: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/av/vga15.html > - Can I use a standard PC keyboard with the Apollo? It just has a so-called > "HPIL"-connector on the back, and I don't have such a keyboard... You need a special HP-HIL keyboard and mouse. HP-HIL is a desktop bus like ADB or USB. The original Apollo keyboards will not fit as they are not HP-HIL and the 735/125 has no Apollo keyboard connector (7 pin DIN) like the late HP 9000 300 (400) M68k machines. > - My Apollo doesn't have a standard LAN-connector, just an AUI... Get a transceiver from epay or your favorite hardware dealer. BTW: AUI is a standard LAN-connector. ;-) > it has a EISA slot, and the manual told me that EISA is fully compliat to > ISA (didn't know this before...). So, can I just equip the Apollo with one > of my old ISA Novell/ Eagle-cards? PeeCee junk in a precious machine like that, what a disgusting thought. ;-) > There's an EISA card in the slot, but > this seems to be a Token Ring (it's called a "Ring" card) What connector does it have? 7W2? > Harald (bofh@dh9dat.de) Ahhh, Germanien. dh9dat? Funker? Ich hab einige HIL Tastaturen über. Da würde ich dir u.U. duchaus eine für einen kleinen Obulus abgeben... -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Oct 9 05:28:00 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Speaking of SOLs... Message-ID: Did anyone bid on that recent epay lot of two SOLs that was canceled? Was any reason given? Did somebody on the list get them via other means? From roosmcd at dds.nl Wed Oct 9 06:34:00 2002 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd@dds.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1034163054.3da4136eb8640@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, I also have a HP 9915A in my possesion. Useless without keyboard and I also have only documentation for the HP-85. > >There is also a little board inside that has eight sockets, four of which > >are populated with 2732 eproms. I am wondering whether this is part of > the > >cpu system, or if it is for embedded program storage like the programmable > >rom card for the 85. > > The later. There were software developement kits available that let you > write programs in assembler and burn them into EPROMs that plugged into a > HP-85 type plug-in cartridges (called a Hybrid ROM or something like that) or > directly into the 9915. The EPROMs that are in it are probably Matrix and/or > I/O ROM IIRC. That seems to be standard in the 9915s that I'm aware of. This sounds like they are absolute unobtainium today? I'd better start looking for a HP-85, only they seem to want quite some money when I see them on eBay :). > FYI The 9915 doesn't use the HP-85 custom hybrid processor but uses an > Intel CPU instead! However it does use the HP-85 keyboard processor but only > for the timers that it contains. Are you sure? I must take a look at my machine then.. What kind of processor is in there? > >I presume that I can hook up a disk with an hp-ib card (and rom), so it > >should be usable once I find a keyboard and appropriate monitor. > > Correct. With the keyboard and monitor it should act exactly like a HP-85 > (except your's doesn't have the tape drive). But it's a lot easier to find a > HP 85, 86 or 87. I've always assumed you can't hook up a disk since there is are no disk routines in ROM? greetings, Michiel From roosmcd at dds.nl Wed Oct 9 06:41:00 2002 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd@dds.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Interpro 125 In-Reply-To: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1034163467.3da4150bdd012@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, Some time ago I got a couple of Intergraph Clipper machines. The 2000's are running great now (I even bought extra memory of eBay :), but I'm still having some troubles with my Interpro 125. When I got it, it was without a hard drive. So I put in a scsi drive and tried to restore the OS with the boot floppies. There is a set of 5 floppies and a program in the ROM that asks for DISK 1 trhough 5 for restoring CLIX. This program runs fine, however about halfway (sometimes I got up to disk 4) a 'screensaver' (the sliding intergraph) kicks in and I'm back to the boot-up screen. I've tried turning off the screensaver in the prom, but it still happens :(. Does anyone have an idea what to do or the cause of what is happening? I've tried tapping keys and moving the mouse, but this doesn't seem to help.. greetings, Michiel From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed Oct 9 06:59:01 2002 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific's Rescued...need help/info! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Last night I rescued two Ohio Scientific systems: > >Congrats! > > > A challenger C1P and > >Plastic or metal case? I think metal, but I haven't examined it thoroughly yet though..what's the difference (besides the materials used)? > > A Challenger II (which was a MUCH bigger box, and had a matching big, > > heavy dual 8" floppy cabinet). > >Blue/black or tan/brown? tan/brown What's the difference? I've seen many old ads showing the Challender II's, but they always seemed to be the blue ones..how are the tan ones different? > > The haul also included an ADM-3A terminal (always wanted one of > > these), and a dual 5 1/4" floppy cabinet (don't know which system > > this goes to). > >I would like to see a picture of this. It's probably not OSI. > > > I got no documentation, no software or anything > > (these were all picked up from a curb-side garbage pile!!)! > >Lucky, lucky lucky! Where? Chicago suburbs. > > Any pointers to documentation, software, specifications, etc?? > >I have lot's of docs, etc. for OSI. OSI is the principle focus >of my collection. Do you have any of these docs online? I'd love to see some specs and some docs for these systems as I start playing with 'em. The C1P has a ribbon cable coming out of the side of the top, that looks like it's intended to hook into some other board..any idea what this might be for? (it comes out of the right side of the keyboard). thanks! -Bob > > I've read the stuff on a careful process to power-up an altair...does > > this apply to these systems too (I don't have much in the way of > > electronic test equipment or power supplies). > >OSI uses regulated supplies. Generally, they either work or they don't. >I've never had one zap anything... but anyway, the 5 volt supply in the >C1P is easily disconnected from the main (and only) board. Put a dummy >load on it and check. 4.7 to 5.3 is cool. > >The Chal. II will probably have a PowerOne supply (again, very reliable >in my experiance). Pull all of the cards from the "fatherboard" (you'll >need to anyway, just to reestablish contact) (the order of the boards on >the bus does not matter) and put dummy loads and check voltages on the >following pins (counting 1 to 48, top to bottom): > >23 - +12 >24 - -9 >25 - +5 >26 - +5 >27 - gnd >28 - gnd > > > Man...I hate to think of these classic's going landfill...... gotta > > save 'em all! > >Contrats again! bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 07:59:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <1034163054.3da4136eb8640@webmail.dds.nl> References: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009085022.48274666@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Greetings from Florida! At 01:30 PM 10/9/02 +0200, you wrote: > Hello, > > I also have a HP 9915A in my possesion. Useless without keyboard and I also >have only documentation for the HP-85. The way the 9915 is inteneded to be used is as an unattended computer with no operator, that's why they came without keyboards. The intention is that the application program will be loaded from a tape using an AUTOST program or else that the program will be loaded into EPROM and run automaticly from there. In either case, no operator action is inteneded beyond loading a tape and perhaps restarting the 9915. Maybe I should back up. You do know that the 9915 will read HP-85 tapes and run the HP-85 programs don't you? The HP-85 is inteneded to be the developement system for the 9915. > >> >There is also a little board inside that has eight sockets, four of which >> >are populated with 2732 eproms. I am wondering whether this is part of >> the >> >cpu system, or if it is for embedded program storage like the programmable >> >rom card for the 85. >> >> The later. There were software developement kits available that let you >> write programs in assembler and burn them into EPROMs that plugged into a >> HP-85 type plug-in cartridges (called a Hybrid ROM or something like that) or >> directly into the 9915. The EPROMs that are in it are probably Matrix and/or >> I/O ROM IIRC. That seems to be standard in the 9915s that I'm aware of. > > This sounds like they are absolute unobtainium today? I'd better start looking >for a HP-85, only they seem to want quite some money when I see them on >eBay :). Are you kidding? I've seen plenty of them go cheap. But you should really look for a lot better machine like the 87XM. They have a lot more memory and have a number of ROMs built-in. Take a look at . It has some comparisions of the various models. > >> FYI The 9915 doesn't use the HP-85 custom hybrid processor but uses an >> Intel CPU instead! However it does use the HP-85 keyboard processor but only >> for the timers that it contains. > > Are you sure? I must take a look at my machine then.. What kind of processor >is in there? IIRC it's an intel MCS-51. The 9915 was designed and built in Germany while the HP-85 was designed and built in Colorado. That's probably why the difference in architecture. > >> >I presume that I can hook up a disk with an hp-ib card (and rom), so it >> >should be usable once I find a keyboard and appropriate monitor. >> >> Correct. With the keyboard and monitor it should act exactly like a HP-85 >> (except your's doesn't have the tape drive). But it's a lot easier to find a >> HP 85, 86 or 87. > > I've always assumed you can't hook up a disk since there is are no disk >routines in ROM? IIRC it (and the HP 85) will support the old drives that use the Amigo command protocall such of the old HP 9895 8" floppy drives, the old HP 8290x 5 1/4" floppy drives and the HP 9121 3.5" floppy drive. If you have the Extended Mass Storage ROM it will also support some of the newer drives (the ones that use the SS-80 protocall IIRC). The HP 9122 is a common SS-80 drive. FWIW there's a special version of the 9133 hard drives that have the disk partitioned to look like four 8" floppy drives. It's the 9133V. You may also have to have option 004. The docs are unclear about that, the drive manual says that they 9133V and the 9133V option 4 will both work with the HP 8x series but some of the catalogs indicate that only the 9133V WITH option 4 will do so. Some of the catalogs specify that the necessary option is option 010 and some say that you can use the XV models, including the HP 9134 XV, so this whole subject is confused. Oh yes, at least one catalog says that the HP 8xs will support the 9153 hard drive but I'm pretty certain that that is wrong. Joe > > greetings, > Michiel > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 08:00:05 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: specs for Dysam 224/2A alignment disks? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009085729.48270b18@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone know the specs for these disks? Where the cat's eye pattern is located? How many sectors and tracks they have, etc etc? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 09:46:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: manual(s) for Fluke 9010 Troubleshooter 8080 and 8085 pods? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009105029.472fc134@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have manuals for these two pods? I have both of them and they've suddenly gone bad and fail self-test. Both where previously tested good and were properly stored and never used. But last week I pulled one out to use it and the self-test showed it bad before it was even connected to the UUT. Today the same thing happened with another pod! I was using them on a 9010 mainframe that I got recently and I wonder if it somehow damaged them. I can't think of any other explaination. I did verify that they are bad using another mainframe. Does anyone have any ideas? Anyone have manuals for these? joe From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 9 11:05:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <04fb01c26ec6$db8b61c0$0101a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Dave Brown wrote: > They actually go back pre WW2. I have bound copies of full years from the > mid thirties up through WW2 as far as 1949/50. Great reading-specially the > adverts! "Electronics" goes back to the late 1920's or early 1930's. I have bound volumes of every year from the first to about the mid 1980's. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Oct 9 11:44:00 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: manual(s) for Fluke 9010 Troubleshooter 8080 and 8085 pods? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021009105029.472fc134@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20021009124427.00abae58@mail.njd.concentric.com> Joe - Look in http://www.spies.com/~arcade/TE/. It has PDF versions of the user manual for both these pods. -- Tony At 10:50 AM 10/9/2002 +0000, you wrote: > Does anyone have manuals for these two pods? I have both of them and > they've suddenly gone bad and fail self-test. Both where previously > tested good and were properly stored and never used. But last week I > pulled one out to use it and the self-test showed it bad before it was > even connected to the UUT. Today the same thing happened with another > pod! I was using them on a 9010 mainframe that I got recently and I > wonder if it somehow damaged them. I can't think of any other > explaination. I did verify that they are bad using another > mainframe. Does anyone have any ideas? Anyone have manuals for these? > > joe From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 9 12:13:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum Message-ID: <200210091714.KAA18966@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ross Archer" > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>>Jim Kearney wrote: >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum >>>(http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) >>> >>> >> >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >>I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its >>stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware >>as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but >>I guess it is an "Intel" museum. >> >>Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far >>behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad >>comment just to read about the products that were >>way behind, and still are, the excellence of other >>products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been >>produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major >>accomplishment. >> >Harsh! :) > >Guess it depends on what you mean by "far behind from a >technical point of view." > >If you mean that x86 is an ugly legacy architecture, with >not nearly enough registers, an instruction set which >doesn't fit any reasonable pipeline, that's ugly to decode >and not particularly orthogonal, that from purely technical >reasons ought to have died a timely death in 1990, >I'd have to agree. > >However, look at the performance. P4 is up near the >top of the tree with the best RISC CPUs, which have >the advantage of clean design and careful evolution. > >It surely takes a great deal of inspiration, creativity, >and engineering talent to take something as ill-suited >as the x86 architecture and get this kind of performance >out of it. IMHO. > >In other words, making x86 fast must be a lot like >getting Dumbo off the air. That ought to count as >some kind of technical achievement. :) ---snip--- It is all done with smoke and mirrors. We do the same here at AMD. The trick is to trade immediate execution for known execution. The x86 code is translated to run on a normal RISC engine. This means that the same tricks on a normal RISC engine would most likely only buy about a couple percent. It would only show up on the initial load of the local cache. Once that is done, there is really little difference. Choices of pipeline depth, out of order execution, multiple execution engines and such are just the fine tuning. Intel, like us is just closer to the fine edge of what the silicon process can do than anything tricky that people like MIPS don't know about. On a separate subject, I was very disappointed in the Intel Museum. I'd thought it might be a good place to research early software or early IC's. They have vary little to offer to someone looking into this level of stuff. Any local library has better references on this kind of stuff ( and that isn't saying much ). Dwight From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Oct 9 12:23:00 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor References: <20021008211657.63106.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <050d01c26fb8$b0456a40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor > > I used to work in a group at Lucent (in Columbus, OH) that > maintained Suns and NCR 34xx machines. How many MicroChannel > SCSI cards does yours have? Ethernet? > 1 x SCSI, 0 x Ethernet although i may have an IBM one somewhere > /snip > If you want to run multi-processor UNIX (NCR's MP-RAS) on what > are probably P-90 chips, it's a fine little beast. Otherwise, > it's an I/O-heavy desktop machine. A giant PeeCee, really. > Hmm, was afraid of that, more or less ............. I'll propably will salvage usable parts from it and turn to more vintage stuff like Sun or Intergraph stations for projects .......... If somebody is in dire need of a low weight part of this machine ? Let me know (soon! ;-) > > I was told that you could stick in a DOS boot floppy and play > DOOM on one. Never got the chance, though. :-) > Sipke de Wal ----------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------------- From emu at ecubics.com Wed Oct 9 12:47:00 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210032306.QAA16661@clulw009.amd.com> <1033600983.1877.0.camel@supermicro> <3D9CD62B.959149A2@compsys.to> <043d01c26b3e$5280eac0$1301090a@jkearney.com> <3D9D0A84.FA0154BB@compsys.to> <3D9D2B69.5040503@mindless.com> Message-ID: <3DA46C28.223EF5C1@ecubics.com> Ross Archer wrote: > > It surely takes a great deal of inspiration, creativity, > and engineering talent to take something as ill-suited > as the x86 architecture and get this kind of performance > out of it. IMHO. > > In other words, making x86 fast must be a lot like > getting Dumbo off the air. That ought to count as > some kind of technical achievement. :) Just take a RISC core, translate all your CISC instructions to RISC, and tell your marketing to avoid saying anything about RISC ;-) > Imagine if the same amount of effort was applied > to a sensible machine, like MIPS, Alpha, or ARM! > Or even a 64 bit-wide Z80 :) Oh, intel is trying ;-) To put the same effort in the IA-64. But still doesn't fly. And, as a side note, they probably get itanium earlier to classiccmp than to general market. Cooking for 9 years already ;-) cheers From wonko at 4amlunch.net Wed Oct 9 13:23:00 2002 From: wonko at 4amlunch.net (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: <20021007040341.74712.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021007040341.74712.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021009182300.GE17336@dende.4amlunch.net> On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 09:03:41PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > My recollection is that the primary distro fits on a single RL02; you'll > need a second one for the source archives (to remake the kernel). It > runs in 256K, but that doesn't leave lots of RAM for user processes. > ISTR that I could run rogue, but not dungeon (an older version of > Bob Supnik's FORTRAN port, not 3.2A). this is of course going to be a very limited system, but the memory requirements for 2.9BSD are 192Kbytes of ram. 2.11BSD on the other hand requires 1MB ram and split I&D. big difference there. ;) -brian From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 9 13:36:01 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "Electronics" goes back to the late 1920's or early 1930's. I have bound > volumes of every year from the first to about the mid 1980's. For those that do not have these - do not despair. Almost every engineering school library should have a complete (or near) set. My favorites are the issues from the 1960 era - most every ad has some sort of tie to missiles. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 9 13:42:00 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? Message-ID: <20021009184459.HZFP3118.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Hi -- Thanks to Don Maslin I'll soon have a set of reload diskettes for my Kaypro 10, and I plan to bring it from home to my shop to do the reload. Is there a "park" or "ship" command I need to run before transporting the unit, so as not to damage the hard drive? TIA -- Glen 0/0 If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if not now, when? -- Pirkei Avot From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 14:00:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 In-Reply-To: <20021009182300.GE17336@dende.4amlunch.net> Message-ID: <20021009190145.85302.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Hechinger wrote: > On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 09:03:41PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > My recollection is that the primary distro fits on a single RL02... > > this is of course going to be a very limited system, but the memory > requirements for 2.9BSD are 192Kbytes of ram. Limited indeed. As I said, I made it work in 256KB of RAM, but it wasn't enough room to really work. > 2.11BSD on the other hand requires 1MB ram and split I&D. > > big difference there. ;) That's why I stuck with 2.9BSD for so long... my first split I&D machine was a Pro380 ex-VAX Console. I have only recently aquired an 11/53 board from a DEC comm server (with real PDP ROMs installed so as to act as expected). Since I _do_ have megs of Qbus RAM and MSCP controllers, etc., I'll be using 2.11BSD with that. I did solve my RL02 space problem in 1994 - I imaged my real magtapes to disk files on my own SPARC1 (via a MicroVAX w/TU-80) and put up a PDP-11 emulator and got it all running - ISTR it ran at about 30% of the speed of the real hardware - on a 12MHz SPARC! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 9 14:22:01 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:51 2005 Subject: specs for Dysam 224/2A alignment disks? In-Reply-To: Joe "specs for Dysam 224/2A alignment disks?" (Oct 9, 8:57) References: <3.0.6.16.20021009085729.48270b18@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10210092025.ZM28086@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9, 8:57, Joe wrote: > Does anyone know the specs for these disks? Where the cat's eye pattern is located? How many sectors and tracks they have, etc etc? They don't have sectors and tracks in the usual sense. Track 16 (on a 48tpi drive; track 32 on a 96tpi drive) has a cat's-eyes pattern. Track 01 or track 34 (02 or 68 on 96tpi) has an index burst pattern (a burst of signal which is 200 microseconds after the index hole, assuming the speed is correct). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Wed Oct 9 14:56:00 2002 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Free HP 9920 in Arnhem, The Netherlands. Message-ID: <001701c26fce$0318d3a0$34f8f1c3@cx> Hi all, I would like to get rid of the following HP stuff: 2 ea HP 9920 but one powersupply is defective.Each has a number of memory modules. 2 ea 98203a keyboard 2 ea 98622a GPIO interface 2 ea 98204a video interface 2 ea 98626a rs232c interface 1 82913a monitor 2 ea 9021D dual HPIB floppy unit 2 ea 82906a HPIB printer NO software what so ever. The stuff is located in Arnhem, The Netherlands and not very light. Wim From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Oct 9 14:59:00 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels Message-ID: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Hi all, OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster (freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! Anyone want to share their secret? Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From archer at topnow.com Wed Oct 9 15:03:00 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210091714.KAA18966@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3DA48BC4.D8B1714E@topnow.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >From: "Ross Archer" > > > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > >>>Jim Kearney wrote: > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>>I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum > >>>(http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) > >>> > >>> > >> > >>Jerome Fine replies: > >> > >>I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its > >>stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware > >>as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but > >>I guess it is an "Intel" museum. > >> > >>Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far > >>behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad > >>comment just to read about the products that were > >>way behind, and still are, the excellence of other > >>products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been > >>produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major > >>accomplishment. > >> > >Harsh! :) > > > >Guess it depends on what you mean by "far behind from a > >technical point of view." > > > >If you mean that x86 is an ugly legacy architecture, with > >not nearly enough registers, an instruction set which > >doesn't fit any reasonable pipeline, that's ugly to decode > >and not particularly orthogonal, that from purely technical > >reasons ought to have died a timely death in 1990, > >I'd have to agree. > > > >However, look at the performance. P4 is up near the > >top of the tree with the best RISC CPUs, which have > >the advantage of clean design and careful evolution. > > > >It surely takes a great deal of inspiration, creativity, > >and engineering talent to take something as ill-suited > >as the x86 architecture and get this kind of performance > >out of it. IMHO. > > > >In other words, making x86 fast must be a lot like > >getting Dumbo off the air. That ought to count as > >some kind of technical achievement. :) > > ---snip--- > > It is all done with smoke and mirrors. Anything the results in a net faster CPU isn't, in my book, akin to smoke and mirrors. If anyone's guilty of "smoke and mirrors", it's probably Intel by making a ridiculous long (20-24 stage) pipeline just to allow the wayupcrankinzee of clock rates so they can be first CPU to X Ghz. Why not a 50 stage pipeline that hits 8 Ghz, nevermind the hideous branch-misprediction penalties and exception overhead? > We do the same > here at AMD. The trick is to trade immediate execution > for known execution. The x86 code is translated to run > on a normal RISC engine. Yes, and this in and of itself must be rather tricky, no? X86 instructions are variable-length, far from load/store, have gobs of complexity in protected nonflat mode, etc. I'd bet a significant portion of the Athlon or P4 is devoted just to figuring out how to translate/align/schedule/dispatch such a mess with a RISC core under the hood. :) > This means that the same tricks > on a normal RISC engine would most likely only buy about > a couple percent. It would only show up on the initial > load of the local cache. Once that is done, there is > really little difference. > Choices of pipeline depth, out of order execution, multiple > execution engines and such are just the fine tuning. > Intel, like us is just closer to the fine edge of what > the silicon process can do than anything tricky that > people like MIPS don't know about. Well, why isn't something elegant like Alpha, HP-PA, or MIPS at the top of the performance tree then? (Or are they and I'm just not aware of the latest new products.) My pet theory is that the higher code density of x86 vs. mainline RISC helps utilize the memory subsystem more efficiently, or at least overtaxes it less often. The decoding for RISC is a lot simpler, but if the caching systems can't completely compensate for the higher memory bandwidth requirements, you're stalling more often or limiting the maximum internal CPU speed indirectly due to the mismatch. And decoding on-chip can go much faster than any sort of external memory these days. This isn't really a discussion for classiccmp, but I couldn't resist since I'm sure at least some folks enjoy speculationalism on such topics. :) > > On a separate subject, I was very disappointed in the > Intel Museum. I'd thought it might be a good place to > research early software or early IC's. They have vary > little to offer to someone looking into this level of > stuff. Any local library has better references on this > kind of stuff ( and that isn't saying much ). > Dwight n From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Oct 9 15:07:00 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Here in 'Murka, there is sold a product (usually in hardware and home-supplies type places) called "Goo-Gone". After you get done laughing at what it's called and use it, it is aptly named. IIRC it's mostly benzene and a few other things, but it works wonders on gummy label residue and old, dead masking tape. There are several variations on this product, but Goo-Gone is what I have used successfully in this case. IIRC, there was thread some months back on this exact subject - might be worth a dusty stumble through the Archives... Cheers John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 9 15:12:01 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Questions about a HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: <02100802345701.00810@dh9dat-w> from "Harald Husemann" at Oct 8, 2 02:34:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1486 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021009/6cfa5fa3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 9 15:13:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> from "Ben Bridgwater" at Oct 8, 2 02:23:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 914 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021009/003ffd46/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 9 15:15:19 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe" at Oct 8, 2 10:33:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2179 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021009/f9d7e04a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 9 15:17:01 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: 10 years In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 8, 2 08:59:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 208 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021009/a39eb611/attachment.ksh From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Oct 9 15:18:37 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <3DA48BC4.D8B1714E@topnow.com> Message-ID: On 10/09/02, Ross Archer scribbled: > This isn't really a discussion for classiccmp, but I > couldn't > resist since I'm sure at least some folks enjoy > speculationalism > on such topics. :) > I wouldn't say it's completely off-topic, though. I mean, computers do have processors. And for folks like me, this background info is neat toi learn, and sort of understand... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cb at mythtech.net Wed Oct 9 15:21:00 2002 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels Message-ID: > OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks >to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using >felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without >a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things >off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried >WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster >(freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! > Anyone want to share their secret? I use a two step method. #1 Avon Skin-So-Soft to remove the label. The oils in it will loosen the glue so you can remove the label without much effort. However, it leaves the glue itself behind, so in a few days when the skin so soft completely dries up, you will be left with a stack of floppies that stick to everything. So I do step #2: While the glue is loose, I use rubbing alcohol to remove the glue residue. Do this AFTER buffing off the excess skin so soft. Once you give it a scrub down with alcohol, the active glue will be removed, leaving you with a nice fresh (and ever so pleasent smelling) floppy disk. Or, if you plan to put a new label on right away, you can skip step #2, and just buff off the excess skin so soft, and apply a new label (however, I have had some problems with that in the past... the skin so soft gets into the plastic, and shortly after you apply the new label, you find it is falling off... that is why I do the two step process, and then leave them for a few days to fully dry). Although I have not had an issue with this... I would be cautious about getting the skin-so-soft onto the actual disk media... it just doesn't strike me as being that good for it (fortunatly, it isn't a very tough thing to control because it does have the consistance of WD40 or light weight machine oil, so it flows, but not so fast that you can't control it). -chris From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Oct 9 15:30:00 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <000201c26fd2$a3762740$90f8b8ce@impac.com> I haven't tried it on disk labels, but Goo Gone works wonders on similar labels on all sorts of other surfaces. Erik S. Klein www.vintage-computer.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels Hi all, OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster (freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! Anyone want to share their secret? Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 9 15:33:01 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: "Philip Pemberton" "[maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels" (Oct 9, 21:00) References: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <10210092136.ZM28165@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9, 21:00, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi all, > OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks > to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using > felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without > a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things > off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried > WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster > (freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! > Anyone want to share their secret? Since you're in the UK, I'd suggest one of the aerosol label removers that CPC sell. They're quite effective. What I use, though, is white spirit (as used for cleaning brushes used for oil paint) or sub turps. Several drops on the label (make sure it covers the whole thing) and leave it for an hour or two, then it will probably peel off *slowly*. I've even used this to remove thirty-year old labels from the covers of ex-library books, but for really stubborn labels like that, usually I put on enough to make the label look slighly wet, cover it with a piece of kitchen paper soaked in white spirit (to prevent it all evaporating too quickly) and leave it for 24 hours. Any residue can be removed with kitchen paper or a rag moistened in white spirit, then followed with a dry paper to remove the rest. If it was on something absorbent (like a book cover) let it dry thoroughly for a day or two after that. If the label mostly comes off, but leaves a thin layer of paper, you can probably scrape that off with a fingernail and remove the rest of the goo with sellotape and perseverance. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 9 16:21:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum Message-ID: <200210092122.OAA19155@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ross Archer" > >"Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: >> >> >From: "Ross Archer" >> > >> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> > >> >>>Jim Kearney wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum >> >>>(http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >> >> >>I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its >> >>stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware >> >>as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but >> >>I guess it is an "Intel" museum. >> >> >> >>Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far >> >>behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad >> >>comment just to read about the products that were >> >>way behind, and still are, the excellence of other >> >>products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been >> >>produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major >> >>accomplishment. >> >> >> >Harsh! :) >> > >> >Guess it depends on what you mean by "far behind from a >> >technical point of view." >> > >> >If you mean that x86 is an ugly legacy architecture, with >> >not nearly enough registers, an instruction set which >> >doesn't fit any reasonable pipeline, that's ugly to decode >> >and not particularly orthogonal, that from purely technical >> >reasons ought to have died a timely death in 1990, >> >I'd have to agree. >> > >> >However, look at the performance. P4 is up near the >> >top of the tree with the best RISC CPUs, which have >> >the advantage of clean design and careful evolution. >> > >> >It surely takes a great deal of inspiration, creativity, >> >and engineering talent to take something as ill-suited >> >as the x86 architecture and get this kind of performance >> >out of it. IMHO. >> > >> >In other words, making x86 fast must be a lot like >> >getting Dumbo off the air. That ought to count as >> >some kind of technical achievement. :) >> >> ---snip--- >> >> It is all done with smoke and mirrors. > >Anything the results in a net faster CPU isn't, in my book, >akin to smoke and mirrors. > >If anyone's guilty of "smoke and mirrors", it's probably >Intel by making a ridiculous long (20-24 stage) pipeline >just to allow the wayupcrankinzee of clock rates so they can >be first CPU to X Ghz. Why not a 50 stage pipeline that hits >8 Ghz, nevermind the hideous branch-misprediction penalties >and exception overhead? > > >> We do the same >> here at AMD. The trick is to trade immediate execution >> for known execution. The x86 code is translated to run >> on a normal RISC engine. > >Yes, and this in and of itself must be rather tricky, no? >X86 instructions are variable-length, far from load/store, >have gobs of complexity in protected nonflat mode, etc. >I'd bet a significant portion of the Athlon or P4 is devoted >just to figuring out how to >translate/align/schedule/dispatch >such a mess with a RISC core under the hood. :) It doesn't take as much as one would think but it is a hit on speed and space. Still, the overall hit is really quite small. > >> This means that the same tricks >> on a normal RISC engine would most likely only buy about >> a couple percent. It would only show up on the initial >> load of the local cache. Once that is done, there is >> really little difference. >> Choices of pipeline depth, out of order execution, multiple >> execution engines and such are just the fine tuning. >> Intel, like us is just closer to the fine edge of what >> the silicon process can do than anything tricky that >> people like MIPS don't know about. > >Well, why isn't something elegant like Alpha, HP-PA, or MIPS >at the top of the performance tree then? (Or are they and >I'm >just not aware of the latest new products.) > >My pet theory is that the higher code density of x86 >vs. mainline RISC helps utilize the memory subsystem >more efficiently, or at least overtaxes it less often. >The decoding for RISC is a lot simpler, but >if the caching systems can't completely compensate for the >higher >memory bandwidth requirements, you're stalling more often or >limiting >the maximum internal CPU speed indirectly due to the >mismatch. >And decoding on-chip can go much faster than any sort of >external >memory these days. This is why the newer processor chips are really a memory chip with some processor attached, rather than a processor with some memory attached. We and Intel are turning into RAM makers. Memory bandwidth is on the increase but it isn't keeping up with chip speed. Still, I don't understand why many are not going to more efficient memory optimization than apparent execution speed. The compiler writers have a ways to go. The day is gone when pinhole optimization buys much. Keeping the process in on chip cache is really the important thing. There isn't an application out there that if one removed the large data array and image bit tables, couldn't completely fit in the caches that are being used today. The compilers just don't write code well enough to keep the size down. It is just that we've gotten into the poor choice of languages and poor connection of software writers to the actual machine code that is run. Just my opinion. Dwight > >This isn't really a discussion for classiccmp, but I >couldn't >resist since I'm sure at least some folks enjoy >speculationalism >on such topics. :) > > >> >> On a separate subject, I was very disappointed in the >> Intel Museum. I'd thought it might be a good place to >> research early software or early IC's. They have vary >> little to offer to someone looking into this level of >> stuff. Any local library has better references on this >> kind of stuff ( and that isn't saying much ). >> Dwight > >n > From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 9 16:27:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels Message-ID: <200210092128.OAA19171@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >Hi all, > OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks >to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using >felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without >a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things >off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried >WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster >(freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! > Anyone want to share their secret? GooGone Dwight From jss at subatomix.com Wed Oct 9 17:13:00 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20537783.20021009171016@subatomix.com> On Tuesday, October 8, 2002, Joe wrote: > I only found it by shear accident. ^^^^^ That's gotta be a long story... I hope you weren't hurt! -- Jeffrey Sharp From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 17:15:08 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009181817.4d7f7e5a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:00 PM 10/9/02 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all, > OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks >to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using >felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without >a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things >off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried >WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster >(freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! > Anyone want to share their secret? Sheesh, I have trouble getting them to stay on! There's nothing worse than opening a big box of old disks and having all the labels laying in the bottom of the box! You might try Goo-Gone or one of the other solvents made from orange oil. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 17:15:25 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: HP 9915 Re: Free HP 9920 in Arnhem, The Netherlands. In-Reply-To: <001701c26fce$0318d3a0$34f8f1c3@cx> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009181200.473f6e72@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:56 PM 10/9/02 +0200, "W.B.(Wim) Hofman" wrote: >Hi all, >I would like to get rid of the following HP stuff: >2 ea HP 9920 but one powersupply is defective.Each has a number of memory >modules. >2 ea 98203a keyboard >2 ea 98622a GPIO interface >2 ea 98204a video interface >2 ea 98626a rs232c interface The following items will work with the HP 9915. Any of the items can be used on any HP 9000 series 200 computer (9826, 9836, 9816, 9000 217, etc) >1 82913a monitor >2 ea 9021D dual HPIB floppy unit (I think this is supposed to be "9121D" >2 ea 82906a HPIB printer Joe >NO software what so ever. > >The stuff is located in Arnhem, The Netherlands and not very light. > >Wim > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 17:16:13 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: specs for Dysam 224/2A alignment disks? In-Reply-To: <10210092025.ZM28086@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20021009085729.48270b18@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009180609.473f73b2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Thanks Pete. Joe At 07:25 PM 10/9/02 GMT, you wrote: >On Oct 9, 8:57, Joe wrote: >> Does anyone know the specs for these disks? Where the cat's eye pattern >is located? How many sectors and tracks they have, etc etc? > >They don't have sectors and tracks in the usual sense. Track 16 (on a >48tpi drive; track 32 on a 96tpi drive) has a cat's-eyes pattern. Track 01 >or track 34 (02 or 68 on 96tpi) has an index burst pattern (a burst of >signal which is 200 microseconds after the index hole, assuming the speed >is correct). > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 9 17:35:01 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? In-Reply-To: <20021009184459.HZFP3118.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Hi -- > > Thanks to Don Maslin I'll soon have a set of reload diskettes for my Kaypro > 10, and I plan to bring it from home to my shop to do the reload. > > Is there a "park" or "ship" command I need to run before transporting the > unit, so as not to damage the hard drive? IIRC, it is built into the operating system and when the HD LED goes out, the heads have been parked. - don > TIA -- > > Glen > 0/0 > > If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? > And if not now, when? > -- Pirkei Avot > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 9 17:46:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <20537783.20021009171016@subatomix.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021009185007.115f4964@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:10 PM 10/9/02 -0500, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: >On Tuesday, October 8, 2002, Joe wrote: >> I only found it by shear accident. > ^^^^^ > >That's gotta be a long story... I hope you weren't hurt! No pain, no gain! :-) Joe > >-- > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Oct 9 17:56:00 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey"'s message of "Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:22:21 -0700 (PDT)" References: <200210092122.OAA19155@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200210092234.g99MYwNq053460@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Still, I don't understand why many are not going to more > efficient memory optimization than apparent execution speed. > The compiler writers have a ways to go. The day is gone > when pinhole optimization buys much. Keeping the process > in on chip cache is really the important thing. As someone who writes code that goes through compilers, the reason why I don't think too hard about the on-chip cache is because I have no idea about the size or architecture of that on-chip cache. Well, I have some idea, and that's that I can't count on it. OK, so the products I work on are sold as portable C source that is expected to build and run on a bunch of different processors, some of which don't have any cache but may be clocked slow enough for SRAM to keep up. I may not be the programmer you have in mind. So, let's take instead the case of someone writing code to run on Win32. Reading the side of a box for something newish like that, we could narrow it a bit further, to Win98, WinME, and Win2000 (hmm, maybe that's why this thing was in the closeouts pile, no WinXP). That could be running on anything made in the last four years, and what have x86 processor manufacturers done with on-chip caches in that time? Overall I suspect it's an upward trend but I'm thinking there were some local downturns for things like the early Celerons to keep them from competing too effectively with Pentium IIs, but as mentioned above I haven't really been paying attention. I am thinking that the programmer will probably not know even if he does want to think about writing code to fit in on-chip cache, and he's the compiler vendor's customer. How is the compiler vendor supposed to have any idea what the eventual target's on-chip cache will be like? -Frank McConnell From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 9 19:23:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Free IBM System 36 in NJ References: <200210091714.KAA18966@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00b701c26ff3$55eb1140$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Hi, I just got rights to rescue this system from eBay. It's free from me to anybody on the list that wants it. Location: Tom's River, New Jersey. Here's a photo and the owner's text on it: http://ebay0.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_d301df278bf43e4bc14959f67e012316/i- 1.JPG (Pictured: System unit, HIC tape drive, IBM terminal, desktop printer) "Working IBM System 36 computer. The system was in every day use until August of 2002. CPU is the Model 5362, known as the Baby 36; Memory = 256K; Disk Space = 90 M-Bytes; Terminal = I/O Model 2576 with a parallel port for printer attachment; External Tape Drive; Printer = Epson LQ-2550 Wide Carriage equipped with a Twin Ax connector for use with this system. It is loaded with a fully operational operating system - SSP Software: DFU, SDA, RPGII. The CPU is the size of a two drawer file cabinet." John A. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 9 19:37:01 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Free IBM System 36 in NJ References: <200210091714.KAA18966@clulw009.amd.com> <00b701c26ff3$55eb1140$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <018701c26ff5$3fdcf0b0$ec010240@oemcomputer> I could not get the url to work? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:24 PM Subject: Free IBM System 36 in NJ > Hi, > > I just got rights to rescue this system from eBay. > It's free from me to anybody on the list that wants it. > Location: Tom's River, New Jersey. > Here's a photo and the owner's text on it: > > > http://ebay0.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_d301df278bf43e4bc14959f67e012316/i- > 1.JPG > (Pictured: System unit, HIC tape drive, IBM terminal, > desktop printer) > > "Working IBM System 36 computer. The system was in every > day use until August of 2002. > CPU is the Model 5362, known as the Baby 36; > Memory = 256K; > Disk Space = 90 M-Bytes; > Terminal = I/O Model 2576 > with a parallel port for printer attachment; > External Tape Drive; > Printer = Epson LQ-2550 Wide Carriage > equipped with a Twin Ax connector for use with this system. > > It is loaded with a fully operational operating system - > SSP Software: DFU, SDA, RPGII. The CPU is the size of a > two drawer file cabinet." > > John A. > > From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Oct 9 19:59:12 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: References: <200210021806540535.A39850CC@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021009205248.00a48950@66.67.226.217> Well, I happen to have a 5.25" Hull height Seagate 10gig SCSI drive available. It powers, never fully tested it though. Hildebrand was going to take it but it fell through. I also have a 1gig IBM and I think one or two 2gig drives (Maxtor? and Seagates). Anyone need one or specs? Seagate seems to like me lately. Going for shipping only. john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org BTW: nice to see that Sridhar is still with us. =) -John At 12:18 AM 10/9/02, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > Actually, that's a 2.2 gig drive. The 12400N is an early Hawk series, > > very popular with the Sun 'lunchbox' systems. > >As a matter of fact, I'd like to find one of these for my Sparc LX. It >came without a drive (removed because the place that owned it was >paranoid). > >-Toth ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From archer at topnow.com Wed Oct 9 20:14:01 2002 From: archer at topnow.com (Ross Archer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum References: <200210092122.OAA19155@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3DA4D4B7.D06767DC@topnow.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >From: "Ross Archer" > > > >"Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >> > >> >From: "Ross Archer" > >> > > >> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> > > >> >>>Jim Kearney wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>>I just had an email exchange with someone at Intel's Museum > >> >>>(http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/index.htm) > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>Jerome Fine replies: > >> >> > >> >>I am not sure why the information is so blatant in its > >> >>stupid attempt to ignore anything but Intel hardware > >> >>as far a anything that even look like a CPU chip, but > >> >>I guess it is an "Intel" museum. > >> >> > >> >>Of course, even now, Intel, in my opinion, is so far > >> >>behind from a technical point of view that is is a sad > >> >>comment just to read about the products that were > >> >>way behind, and still are, the excellence of other > >> >>products. No question that if the Pentium 4 had been > >> >>produced 10 years ago, it would have been a major > >> >>accomplishment. > >> >> > >> >Harsh! :) > >> > > >> >Guess it depends on what you mean by "far behind from a > >> >technical point of view." > >> > > >> >If you mean that x86 is an ugly legacy architecture, with > >> >not nearly enough registers, an instruction set which > >> >doesn't fit any reasonable pipeline, that's ugly to decode > >> >and not particularly orthogonal, that from purely technical > >> >reasons ought to have died a timely death in 1990, > >> >I'd have to agree. > >> > > >> >However, look at the performance. P4 is up near the > >> >top of the tree with the best RISC CPUs, which have > >> >the advantage of clean design and careful evolution. > >> > > >> >It surely takes a great deal of inspiration, creativity, > >> >and engineering talent to take something as ill-suited > >> >as the x86 architecture and get this kind of performance > >> >out of it. IMHO. > >> > > >> >In other words, making x86 fast must be a lot like > >> >getting Dumbo off the air. That ought to count as > >> >some kind of technical achievement. :) > >> > >> ---snip--- > >> > >> It is all done with smoke and mirrors. > > > >Anything the results in a net faster CPU isn't, in my book, > >akin to smoke and mirrors. > > > >If anyone's guilty of "smoke and mirrors", it's probably > >Intel by making a ridiculous long (20-24 stage) pipeline > >just to allow the wayupcrankinzee of clock rates so they can > >be first CPU to X Ghz. Why not a 50 stage pipeline that hits > >8 Ghz, nevermind the hideous branch-misprediction penalties > >and exception overhead? > > > > > >> We do the same > >> here at AMD. The trick is to trade immediate execution > >> for known execution. The x86 code is translated to run > >> on a normal RISC engine. > > > >Yes, and this in and of itself must be rather tricky, no? > >X86 instructions are variable-length, far from load/store, > >have gobs of complexity in protected nonflat mode, etc. > >I'd bet a significant portion of the Athlon or P4 is devoted > >just to figuring out how to > >translate/align/schedule/dispatch > >such a mess with a RISC core under the hood. :) > > It doesn't take as much as one would think but it is a hit > on speed and space. Still, the overall hit is really quite > small. Based on what you're saying, it follows that a multi-level instruction-set implementation (lower level microarchitecture plus higher level user-visible architecture) is not only feasible, but might even be superior in some cases to a one-level implementation tuned either for CPU speed or compiler convenience. What follows is that the user-level instruction set ought to be organized for compiler code generation efficiency (less code, fewer instructions, less semantic gap between compiler and compiler-visible CPU to make optimizations more obvious, etc.) The microarchitecture is then designed to keep the execution units and pipelines as busy as possible without regard to semantic gap from the outside world. The hybrid might eventually surpass the best purely RISC or CISC approaches simply because there are two optimization points: at the compiler/assembler and at the internal hardware. > > > > >> This means that the same tricks > >> on a normal RISC engine would most likely only buy about > >> a couple percent. It would only show up on the initial > >> load of the local cache. Once that is done, there is > >> really little difference. > >> Choices of pipeline depth, out of order execution, multiple > >> execution engines and such are just the fine tuning. > >> Intel, like us is just closer to the fine edge of what > >> the silicon process can do than anything tricky that > >> people like MIPS don't know about. > > > >Well, why isn't something elegant like Alpha, HP-PA, or MIPS > >at the top of the performance tree then? (Or are they and > >I'm > >just not aware of the latest new products.) > > > >My pet theory is that the higher code density of x86 > >vs. mainline RISC helps utilize the memory subsystem > >more efficiently, or at least overtaxes it less often. > >The decoding for RISC is a lot simpler, but > >if the caching systems can't completely compensate for the > >higher > >memory bandwidth requirements, you're stalling more often or > >limiting > >the maximum internal CPU speed indirectly due to the > >mismatch. > >And decoding on-chip can go much faster than any sort of > >external > >memory these days. > > This is why the newer processor chips are really a memory > chip with some processor attached, rather than a processor > with some memory attached. We and Intel are turning into > RAM makers. Memory bandwidth is on the increase but it > isn't keeping up with chip speed. And unless you go with 1024+ bit wide SDRAM buses or such, it's hard to see how you could have the external memory keep up. The "happy" (well, carefree) days of 1000 nS instruction cycles are long gone. :) > Still, I don't understand why many are not going to more > efficient memory optimization than apparent execution speed. > The compiler writers have a ways to go. > The day is gone > when pinhole optimization buys much. For RISC targets, the semantic gap between an HLL statement in "C", for example, and the target code is wider. Intuitively anyways, this means more instructions are output and fewer optimizations are found for a given level of effort in the code generation logic. And since it's an "all things being equal" deal, you can bet the optimization will be better with a friendly target. Peephole optimization would be particularly difficult where there is basically only one way to do something in the target. Perversely, all this argues for a RISC engine optimized for internal speed and a CISC engine optimized to be compiler-friendly, or in other words, "Q: Which technology is better: RISC or CISC? A: Both are better than either." :) At last, a possible explanation for why x86, which is so ugly from a performance-theory point of view, really does work so well in practice? > Keeping the process > in on chip cache is really the important thing. There isn't > an application out there that if one removed the large data > array and image bit tables, couldn't completely fit in the > caches that are being used today. The problem is cache is generally implemented as "n" parallel direct-mapped caches (n-way) rather than truly associative, because associative memory is impossibly complex and expensive for any decent size. So if you have a 2-way cache, that means you can only have two data items in the cache whose index happens to hash to the same cache slot, regardless of how big your cache is. For an "n" way cache, all you need is "n+1" frequently-used data items that map to the same cache index, and musical chairs tosses out vital data on every load. :( A compiler/linker would not only have to know what data was dynamically most frequently used at any given time, but also the method by which the item's address maps it to a cache index, and how many cache-ways there are, to prevent ugly *stuff* like this from happening by locating data so frequently-used data is always paired in the other ways with infrequently-used data. One thing a compiler *could* do is set a "hint" bit in the load and store instructions (provided the CPU provides a bit in load/store for this purpose). when the code generator thinks the data just loaded/stored will be used again especially often in the *near* future. The CPU could let that bit stay set for say one million CPU cycles before clearing it, and try its damndest not to toss out a data item with this bit set if there's an alternative in the other n-1 ways that has no such bit set. That might help quite a bit. Actual implementation would undoubtedly be very different (timestamp?) but the idea is to "hint" the CPU to make a better choice of who to toss into the street vs. keep in the shelter. :) > The compilers just don't > write code well enough to keep the size down. It is just > that we've gotten into the poor choice of languages and poor > connection of software writers to the actual machine code > that is run. I'd have to agree with the poor connection and code size parts. I think it's a bit unfair to blame the high-level languages for this problem though. It seems to me that the code generation phase is where things are broken. And since most compilers have a lexical view of the world rather than a run-time view of the world, it is also kind of difficult to predict what needs to be optimized without some fancy simulation technology that AFAIK isn't used as a rule as part of code generation, but perhaps should be. :) > Just my opinion. > Dwight > Some great things I've learned so far. It's safe to say I already think of things quite differently than I did just yesterday. -- Ross > > > >This isn't really a discussion for classiccmp, but I > >couldn't > >resist since I'm sure at least some folks enjoy > >speculationalism > >on such topics. :) > > > > > >> > >> On a separate subject, I was very disappointed in the > >> Intel Museum. I'd thought it might be a good place to > >> research early software or early IC's. They have vary > >> little to offer to someone looking into this level of > >> stuff. Any local library has better references on this > >> kind of stuff ( and that isn't saying much ). > >> Dwight Yup. Even corporate boosterism shouldn't blind one from a graceful acknowledgement of the contributions of others. :| -- Ross > > > >n > > From benb at Basit.COM Wed Oct 9 20:15:07 2002 From: benb at Basit.COM (Benedict Bridgewater) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200210100116.g9A1G8H06913@misrad.basit.com> >> Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu >> of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone >> has done the same with any success? > >Just use the serial port... It's more reliable. What I'd really like to do would be to modify SOLOS to support redirection of tape output byte stream to the serial port, and then write some software for my PC (i.e. the other end of the serial cable) that read/wrote the corresponding files to disk. Too many projects, not enough time... From apple at cmc.net Wed Oct 9 20:22:00 2002 From: apple at cmc.net (Jack Noble) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels References: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <01c401c26ffb$8375b900$3b0fbbd0@oemcomputer> I have had good luck using a hair dryer to heat up the label enough to make the adhesive gummy again. Not sure how "young" the label needs to be for this to work. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels > Hi all, > OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so disks > to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled using > felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come off without > a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these stupid things > off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my disks? I've tried > WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an upside down airblaster > (freeze spray for half the price) and a few other things and nothing works! > Anyone want to share their secret? > > Thanks. > -- > Phil. > philpem@dsl.pipex.com > http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Oct 9 20:29:00 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: Free IBM System 36 in NJ In-Reply-To: <018701c26ff5$3fdcf0b0$ec010240@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000001c26ffc$a7beb450$6e7ba8c0@piii933> The actual auction is at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2059083205 To make John's link work you need to add the "1.jpg" (or whatever) that got clipped back on to the end of the line. Erik -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keys Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:38 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Free IBM System 36 in NJ I could not get the url to work? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:24 PM Subject: Free IBM System 36 in NJ > Hi, > > I just got rights to rescue this system from eBay. > It's free from me to anybody on the list that wants it. > Location: Tom's River, New Jersey. > Here's a photo and the owner's text on it: > > > http://ebay0.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_d301df278bf43e4bc14959f67e01231 6/i- > 1.JPG > (Pictured: System unit, HIC tape drive, IBM terminal, > desktop printer) > > "Working IBM System 36 computer. The system was in every > day use until August of 2002. > CPU is the Model 5362, known as the Baby 36; > Memory = 256K; > Disk Space = 90 M-Bytes; > Terminal = I/O Model 2576 > with a parallel port for printer attachment; > External Tape Drive; > Printer = Epson LQ-2550 Wide Carriage > equipped with a Twin Ax connector for use with this system. > > It is loaded with a fully operational operating system - > SSP Software: DFU, SDA, RPGII. The CPU is the size of a > two drawer file cabinet." > > John A. > > From benb at Basit.COM Wed Oct 9 20:31:07 2002 From: benb at Basit.COM (Benedict Bridgewater) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008204706.02207a00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200210100132.g9A1WKH06918@misrad.basit.com> >Here's where I get to plug my web site: > http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/sol.html > >You may want to seek out the section on repairing the keyboard. > Thanks, Jim. Googling for SOL-20 already turned up your site pretty prominently, and I today bought a bunch of Sun 4 keyboards for $1/ea off eBay to savage for the pads! Hopefully they've still got some life in them ... From benb at Basit.COM Wed Oct 9 20:45:12 2002 From: benb at Basit.COM (Benedict Bridgewater) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: SOL tapes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021008222342.02205020@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200210100146.g9A1kMH06923@misrad.basit.com> >An interesting experiment would be to convert some of the .ENT format >program files from my web site and use one of the programs here: > > http://www.alphalink.com.au/~edsa/ > >to convert it to a .WAV file. I haven't tried it myself, but it should >work pretty well. I've tried Ed's program to decode a .WAV file back to >binary, but it hasn't worked at all on real recordings. It works fine on >the .WAV files that Ed's programs generate, though. > I'll definitely check this out. I hopefully have some SOL tapes (content unknown) on their way to me, so I'll also bear this in mind as an approach to try reading them if for some reason my tape interface doesn't work. From benb at Basit.COM Wed Oct 9 20:52:07 2002 From: benb at Basit.COM (Benedict Bridgewater) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:52 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <20021009030954.5307.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200210100153.g9A1ruH06927@misrad.basit.com> >I'm almost certain that the video is standard, plain >old NTSC RS-170, which you could probably hook up to >any modern TV having a video input with a simple >mechanical adapter. Much as it makes me ill to mention >this, but Radio SH**, which has gotten enormously >worse in just the last 3 months, probably will have an >adapter to a more modern RCA for it. You MIGHT be able >able to get a decent display from an RF modulator but >at 64 characters by 16, it would be close. Nah - can't do that! I still have vivid memories of how my NASCOM-1 TV display jiggled up and down back in '78! This time I'm splurging on an eBay composite monitor, and Jim Battle kindly clued me in where to get an appropriate PL259 to RCA adaptor for my SOL-20. I'll admit though that I do use Radio Shack when gotta-have-it-now overcomes me. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Oct 9 21:40:00 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Software for Orion Unilab II?? Message-ID: Hello all, As part of a recent eBay win, I acquired an Orion Instruments Unilab II. I have cables/software for the Rockwell 65/11EAB, and am looking for cables/software for any other processor, especially the 1802, Z-80, 8080, 8088. If anyone has software available, and cabling diagrams, please let me know! I have complete docs available, as well as the software for the 65/11EAB... I'd also be willing to write out a cable diagram for the 65/11EAB. Thanks! Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 9 21:50:01 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20021007182152.GA10627@www.4mcnabb.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote: > On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:23:36PM -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > > But which type of scope should be used for Vintage Compters is easy. > > > > A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was > > manufactured, of course! > > Mine is a Tekronix RM-503. I also have an old RCA scope, plus a Kenwood > Service Monitor scope (SM-220) that can handle 1KW of RF at up to 150 > Mhz. Is a RM-503 anything like a RM-561A? Someone gave me a 561A a number of years ago, but it is still in need of a power switch. The switch is integrated into the brightness control, and doesn't seem to be a standard part. One of the more unusual things I noticed about the Tektronix scopes of this vintage is that nearly all the components are connected via solder joints bonded to silver plated notches in ceramic strips. It sure beats the tag strips often found in other bits of vintage electronics gear... -Toth From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 9 22:18:00 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: A quandry.... In-Reply-To: <00b701c26ff3$55eb1140$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I'm in the process of OCR'ing a full set of the Staunch 8/89'er newsletters for addition to the Commercial CP/M Archive. My problem is that while HTML renderings of the newsletters is acceptable, the PDF version that ABBYY FineReader generates is spectacular. Do you folks think I should produce them as PDF, HTML or both? Thanks. g. http://www.retroarchive.org From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Oct 9 22:20:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels Message-ID: <200210100321.XAA62916357@shell.TheWorld.com> > Anyone want to share their secret? a piece of dry ice? My father used it to freeze the adhesive for the linoleum floor in our kitchen, and the old squares came right up... maybe it will work better than the cold from the air can... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From vaxman at earthlink.net Wed Oct 9 23:40:01 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Foo, Bar, Bletch... Message-ID: Anybody here know Steve Harris? Claims to have designed the first Commodore disk drive (1541?) From liste at artware.qc.ca Thu Oct 10 01:13:14 2002 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20021007182152.GA10627@www.4mcnabb.net> Message-ID: On 07-Oct-2002 Christopher McNabb wrote: > On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:23:36PM -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: >> But which type of scope should be used for Vintage Compters is easy. >> >> A vintage scope of the correct era for the machine when it was >> manufactured, of course! >> > > Mine is a Tekronix RM-503. I also have an old RCA scope, plus a Kenwood > Service Monitor scope (SM-220) that can handle 1KW of RF at up to 150 > Mhz. I have a 100Kc (kilo-cycle) Heathkit 'scope. http://pied.nu/leolo-cam/snap-unknown-20011127-213918-1.jpeg (I should get a better picture up some day) -Philip From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 02:06:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Foo, Bar, Bletch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021010070737.74208.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > Anybody here know Steve Harris? Nope. > Claims to have designed the first Commodore disk drive (1541?) Well... the first Commodore disk drive would likely be the 2040. The first Commodore-*64* disk drive would be the 1540 (from the VIC-20, but more-or-less compatible with the U+/U- commands). The 1541 didn't come out until after the C-64 was in production. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Oct 10 04:59:00 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific's Rescued...need help/info! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > A challenger C1P and > >Plastic or metal case? > I think metal, but I haven't examined it thoroughly yet > though..what's the difference (besides the materials used)? If it's brown/tan, it's metal, the plastic case is white, you would know right away. The plastic case was made pretty close to the end of the line for OSI. Not actually distributed until after they were bought by MA/COM. The plastic case was an effort to compete with the Apple II. A plastic case C1P should have a later rev 600 board in it. Some of the later revs included built in 32 column support, color support and software adjustment of the serial signal rate (for the rs-232 and tape interfaces). > > > A Challenger II (which was a MUCH bigger box, and had a matching big, > > > heavy dual 8" floppy cabinet). > >Blue/black or tan/brown? > tan/brown > > What's the difference? Blue/black was the earlier color scheme for OSI so, in a blue/black machine, you would expect to find earlier board revs. The C2-4P was the only machine that stayed blue/black for its entire life (as far as I know anyway... I never seen or heard anyone mention a tan/brown C2-4P). > > > these), and a dual 5 1/4" floppy cabinet (don't know which system > > > this goes to). > >I would like to see a picture of this. It's probably not OSI. I'd really like to see (or at least get a more detailed description of) this dual 5 1/4" cabinet. If it has an OSI tag on it, what it says, what color is it, etc. > > > Any pointers to documentation, software, specifications, etc?? > >I have lot's of docs, etc. for OSI. OSI is the principle focus > >of my collection. > Do you have any of these docs online? I'd love to see some specs and > some docs for these systems as I start playing with 'em. I have a late rev 600 board schematic on line at: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze25qnw/ Interestingly, the page no longer shows up on a google search. It's my intention, when I get some free time (like maybe when my kids go off to college and I retire), to put up an elaborate OSI museum online. > The C1P has a ribbon cable coming out of the side of the top, that > looks like it's intended to hook into some other board..any idea what > this might be for? > (it comes out of the right side of the keyboard). It could really be just about anything! C1Ps are almost always hacked. I don't quite understand your description of where it comes out. If it is a wide cable, around 30 pins (memory fails at the moment and I can't go digging for the docs right now, I would wake up the kids and get in trouble) and it comes out of the back of the unit, then it's probably a floppy cable to go to the 5 1/4" drives. If it is 12 or so pins and comes out next to the keyboard, then it might well be a cable to go to the optional num pad that OSI made. Bill From roosmcd at dds.nl Thu Oct 10 05:02:01 2002 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd@dds.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) In-Reply-To: <20021009170001.76201.69415.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021009170001.76201.69415.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1034243815.3da54ee714cfd@webmail.dds.nl> > > I also have a HP 9915A in my possesion. Useless without keyboard and I also > >have only documentation for the HP-85. > > Maybe I should back up. You do know that the 9915 will read HP-85 tapes > and run the HP-85 programs don't you? The HP-85 is inteneded to be the > developement system for the 9915. Yes, but I also don't have a HP-85 and when I had a HP-85 I could run programs on that instead of the 9915 :). But it's not really an important matter; I just would like to use the 9915 sometime. > > This sounds like they are absolute unobtainium today? I'd better start > looking > >for a HP-85, only they seem to want quite some money when I see them on > >eBay :). > > Are you kidding? I've seen plenty of them go cheap. But you should really > look for a lot better machine like the 87XM. They have a lot more memory and > have a number of ROMs built-in. Take a look at . It > has some comparisions of the various models. Unobtainium was related to the development kit for eproms. As for HP-85's, I'm located in Europe and haven't seen them much around here. Last one I remember was on eBay.de and it went for quite some money (over EUR 100,-?), but I haven't really looked that hard. I know there's a friend looking for a cheap one for couple of years and I don't think he has already found one. But I got offered one by e-mail, so maybe I'll have one soon :). There's also an industrial surplus site that sometimes has them, but the last time I when they had one, it was already reserved for someone else. They did have some other nice industrial computers. greetings, Michiel From dan at ekoan.com Thu Oct 10 05:31:00 2002 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Comments on Qualstar 3412S tape drive? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20021008223312.50df0918@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021010064117.034db880@enigma> Hello, I have the opportunity to buy a Qualstar magnetic tape transport model 3412S and was wondering if anyone had any experience with this drive in terms of reliability, serviceability, etc. Thanks! Cheers, Dan http://www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From jrice54 at charter.net Thu Oct 10 06:21:21 2002 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: A quandry.... References: Message-ID: <3DA5639E.6070304@charter.net> Actually, I prefer pdf format. I tend to store documentation on CD's and print if necessary. The pdf format is much easier to print and handle, no editing of links, etc. Just my opinion, James Gene Buckle wrote: >I'm in the process of OCR'ing a full set of the Staunch 8/89'er >newsletters for addition to the Commercial CP/M Archive. > >My problem is that while HTML renderings of the newsletters is acceptable, >the PDF version that ABBYY FineReader generates is spectacular. > >Do you folks think I should produce them as PDF, HTML or both? > >Thanks. > >g. >http://www.retroarchive.org > > > > > > -- http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 10 08:50:01 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021009205248.00a48950@66.67.226.217> Message-ID: On 10/09/02, John Boffemmyer IV scribbled: > Well, I happen to have a 5.25" Hull height Seagate 10gig SCSI drive > available. It powers, never fully tested it though. Hildebrand was going to > take it but it fell through. I also have a 1gig IBM and I think one or two > 2gig drives (Maxtor? and Seagates). Anyone need one or specs? Seagate seems > to like me lately. Going for shipping only. > john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org > BTW: nice to see that Sridhar is still with us. =) > -John John - Aybody take them yet? If not, I will take them all... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 10 08:53:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: What video monitor for SOL-20? In-Reply-To: <3DA322A1.5020104@ntplx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Ben Bridgwater wrote: > Second, I'm planning to use my PC sound card to record/playback in lieu > of a tape recorder (more reliable, less hassle), and wonder if anyone > has done the same with any success? It can be done without problems. An exhibitor at the VCF has used a CD player (with a CD burned with cassette audio files) in the past in lieu of a tape drive. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 10 08:54:39 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web Message-ID: Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel last night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic computers and terminals... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 10 09:09:00 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: A quandry.... In-Reply-To: <3DA5639E.6070304@charter.net> Message-ID: Thanks James. g. On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, James Rice wrote: > Actually, I prefer pdf format. I tend to store documentation on CD's > and print if necessary. The pdf format is much easier to print and > handle, no editing of links, etc. > > Just my opinion, > > James > > Gene Buckle wrote: > > >I'm in the process of OCR'ing a full set of the Staunch 8/89'er > >newsletters for addition to the Commercial CP/M Archive. > > > >My problem is that while HTML renderings of the newsletters is acceptable, > >the PDF version that ABBYY FineReader generates is spectacular. > > > >Do you folks think I should produce them as PDF, HTML or both? > > > >Thanks. > > > >g. > >http://www.retroarchive.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html > > > > From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Oct 10 10:48:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question Message-ID: <200210101549.LAA65900465@shell.TheWorld.com> Just today I got ahold of: A front panel (just the silk-screened plastic) for a pdp-8/m A front panel (silk-screened plastic) for a pdp-12 a pdp-8/e backplane an asr-33 a pdp-8 of some sort in a 10.5" chassis. The reason I'm not sure which one it is is because the silk-screened front panel had been removed and replaced with a white-colored panel by an organization from which the prior owner had obtained the machine. It has the paddle-type switches like I've seen on pdp-8/e,f,m, but the address/data lights like on a pdp-8/i,l. Any thoughts, anyone? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 10 10:50:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: A quandry.... In-Reply-To: References: <00b701c26ff3$55eb1140$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >I'm in the process of OCR'ing a full set of the Staunch 8/89'er >newsletters for addition to the Commercial CP/M Archive. > >My problem is that while HTML renderings of the newsletters is acceptable, >the PDF version that ABBYY FineReader generates is spectacular. > >Do you folks think I should produce them as PDF, HTML or both? Personally, I prefer PDF, as you can reproduce near original copies. Also, that way you don't have to worry about OCR errors. Unless of course you're OCR'ing, and then sending to PDF (which is a bad idea in my opinion, unless the PDF also includes the non-OCR'd version). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 10 10:52:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web References: Message-ID: <3DA5A2E5.6020201@tiac.net> This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really great program! David A. Woyciesjes wrote: > Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel last >night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the >creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some >things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... > Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic computers and >terminals... > From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 10 11:03:00 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <3DA5A2E5.6020201@tiac.net> Message-ID: On 10/10/02, Bob Shannon scribbled: > This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really > great program! > > Yeah, even my wife enjoyed it! So, the IMPs they built would be the first network interface, right? The precurser to the present-day NIC. I wonder if any of those are still around... Or if they're even used once in a while... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Oct 10 11:11:00 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <3DA5A2E5.6020201@tiac.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010110541.01a8cd10@ubanproductions.com> At 11:55 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: >This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really great >program! There was actual footage of Imlacs? I would really like to see that... What did it show? Any chance someone recorded this and I can get a copy of the section on Imlacs? I checked the History Channel web page for show times and it did not list and future showings of this episode. --tom >David A. Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel last >>night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the >>creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some >>things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... >> Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic computers and >>terminals... > > From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Oct 10 11:32:01 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? Message-ID: I seem to remember that self-parking heads generally were not available on the 10MB drives of Kaypro 10 vintage, so I did a little Googling and came up with the following (http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n12/8_The_Kaypro_10_more_than_.php ) from CREATIVE COMPUTING VOL. 9, NO. 12 / DECEMBER 1983: "A very important command is included in the Kaypro 10 system software. SAFETY moves the read/write heads on the hard disk to the safe landing zone on the disk. This must be done before turning the power off or the surface of the hard disk may be damaged. The SAFETY command is invoked from the command mode in CP/M." Bob -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:37 PM To: classiccmp Subject: Re: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Hi -- > > Thanks to Don Maslin I'll soon have a set of reload diskettes for my Kaypro > 10, and I plan to bring it from home to my shop to do the reload. > > Is there a "park" or "ship" command I need to run before transporting the > unit, so as not to damage the hard drive? IIRC, it is built into the operating system and when the HD LED goes out, the heads have been parked. - don > TIA -- > > Glen > 0/0 From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 10 11:48:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC94@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> > Yeah, even my wife enjoyed it! Sadly, we don't get it in Europe... *sigh* Anyone got a taped copy? > So, the IMPs they built would be the first network interface, > right? The precurser to the present-day NIC. Well, no.. IMP's connected a local(-ish) network to the remote (-ish) network, usually over a slow(-ish ;-) WAN link like a 56K switched circuit. You could see them as the first series of protocol-converting gateways, though. Werent they built by BBN, and based on PDP-11(/23's) with the Fuzzball software load image? --f From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Oct 10 12:03:00 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC94@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>; from Fred.van.Kempen@microwalt.nl on Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 06:49:20PM +0200 References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC94@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <20021010100444.A25814@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 06:49:20PM +0200, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Werent they built by BBN, and based on PDP-11(/23's) with the > Fuzzball software load image? No, those units were the Fuzzballs. (I think the hardware name inspired the softtware.) The IMPs were Honeywell minicomputers -- DDP-516s according to this site: http://www.ulm.ccc.de/chaos-seminar/geschichte-internet/tsld004.htm (I searched for IMP ~ Honeywell ~ Internet and that was the first useful result.) You are right about BBN. There's something else called a TIP (Terminal Interface Processor) but I don't know the difference. It lent its name to the "tip" command in UNIX. -- Derek From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 10 12:14:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010110541.01a8cd10@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3DA5B62F.4080100@tiac.net> Unfortunalty my VCR is down, and I did not tape the program. But yes, there are several shots of people using Imlac's, probalby playing Mazewar in some shots, in others where you get to see the Imlac screen its full of slightly flickering text. None of the shots showed the optional programmers console, but perhaps this was not such a common accessory? My Imalc is still set-up in my living room, not far from the TV, so it was really easy to spot the machine sitting next to the TV on the TV itself! No question, they were Imlacs. Tom Uban wrote: > At 11:55 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really >> great program! > > > There was actual footage of Imlacs? I would really like to see that... > What did > it show? Any chance someone recorded this and I can get a copy of the > section > on Imlacs? I checked the History Channel web page for show times and > it did > not list and future showings of this episode. > > --tom > > >> David A. Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel last >>> night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the >>> creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some >>> things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... >>> Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic >>> computers and >>> terminals... >> >> >> > > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 10 12:27:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC94@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3DA5B693.5060502@tiac.net> No, the first IMP's were build on Interdata machines I think, long long before Qbus. Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >> Yeah, even my wife enjoyed it! >> >Sadly, we don't get it in Europe... *sigh* Anyone got a taped >copy? > >>So, the IMPs they built would be the first network interface, >>right? The precurser to the present-day NIC. >> >Well, no.. IMP's connected a local(-ish) network to the remote >(-ish) network, usually over a slow(-ish ;-) WAN link like a >56K switched circuit. You could see them as the first series >of protocol-converting gateways, though. > >Werent they built by BBN, and based on PDP-11(/23's) with the >Fuzzball software load image? > >--f > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021010/6b3103e8/attachment.html From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 10 12:54:00 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC94@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: On 10/10/02, Fred N. van Kempen scribbled: > > Yeah, even my wife enjoyed it! > Sadly, we don't get it in Europe... *sigh* Anyone got a taped > copy? > > > So, the IMPs they built would be the first network interface, > > right? The precurser to the present-day NIC. > Well, no.. IMP's connected a local(-ish) network to the remote > (-ish) network, usually over a slow(-ish ;-) WAN link like a > 56K switched circuit. You could see them as the first series > of protocol-converting gateways, though. > > Werent they built by BBN, and based on PDP-11(/23's) with the > Fuzzball software load image? > Yeah, built by BBN. They didn't really say in the show what they based on, though... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Oct 10 13:19:00 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010110541.01a8cd10@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <004701c27089$82cc1b00$90f8b8ce@impac.com> I couldn't find future showings either, but I did find this: http://store.aetv.com/html/catalog/vp01.jhtml?id=42747 Erik S. Klein www.vintage-computer.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:15 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web At 11:55 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: >This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really great >program! There was actual footage of Imlacs? I would really like to see that... What did it show? Any chance someone recorded this and I can get a copy of the section on Imlacs? I checked the History Channel web page for show times and it did not list and future showings of this episode. --tom >David A. Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel last >>night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the >>creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some >>things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... >> Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic computers and >>terminals... > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Oct 10 13:30:01 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <004701c27089$82cc1b00$90f8b8ce@impac.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010110541.01a8cd10@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010133231.01a7c3d8@ubanproductions.com> Yes, I found that too, but I'm not sure that I want to spend $24.95 + SH for the show. I was hoping that the local library had a copy, but they do not (yet). --tom At 11:19 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I couldn't find future showings either, but I did find this: >http://store.aetv.com/html/catalog/vp01.jhtml?id=42747 > >Erik S. Klein >www.vintage-computer.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Tom Uban >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:15 AM >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web > >At 11:55 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > >This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really >great > >program! > >There was actual footage of Imlacs? I would really like to see that... >What did >it show? Any chance someone recorded this and I can get a copy of the >section >on Imlacs? I checked the History Channel web page for show times and it >did >not list and future showings of this episode. > >--tom > > > >David A. Woyciesjes wrote: > > > >> Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel >last > >>night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the > >>creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some > >>things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... > >> Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic >computers and > >>terminals... > > > > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 13:59:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: My awesome find!!! Message-ID: Hey all, Yesterday I obtained a Documation card reader, 600cpm, for the total cost of... *drumroll* $20! Anyone have docs? WOOOHOOO! Will J _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 10 14:09:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: My awesome find!!! References: Message-ID: <02b801c27090$97ff7ce0$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Pictures man, we need PICTURES! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Jennings" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: My awesome find!!! > Hey all, > Yesterday I obtained a Documation card reader, 600cpm, for the total cost > of... *drumroll* $20! Anyone have docs? > > WOOOHOOO! > > Will J > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 10 14:23:00 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: A quandry.... Message-ID: I dunno, I prefer TIFFs, but they have the disadvantage of being honkin' huge.. But at least I can go and in be anal-retentive and edit them to look better than the originals, can't edit pdfs nearly as much... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 10 14:52:00 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? Message-ID: <20021010195230.VFQU7350.imf28bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Thanks, Bob. I've been using this system off and on for a couple of years, and it never occurred to me that I had to park the heads before each power-down. Apparently there hasn't been any damage as a result, but I'll start doing it . . . Glen 0/0 > From: Feldman, Robert > To: 'cctalk@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? > Date: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:33 PM > > I seem to remember that self-parking heads generally were not available on > the 10MB drives of Kaypro 10 vintage, so I did a little Googling and came up > with the following > (http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n12/8_The_Kaypro_10_more_than_.php > ) from CREATIVE COMPUTING VOL. 9, NO. 12 / DECEMBER 1983: > > "A very important command is included in the Kaypro 10 system software. > SAFETY moves the read/write heads on the hard disk to the safe landing zone > on the disk. This must be done before turning the power off or the surface > of the hard disk may be damaged. The SAFETY command is invoked from the > command mode in CP/M." > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:37 PM > To: classiccmp > Subject: Re: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? > > > > > On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > Hi -- > > > > Thanks to Don Maslin I'll soon have a set of reload diskettes for my > Kaypro > > 10, and I plan to bring it from home to my shop to do the reload. > > > > Is there a "park" or "ship" command I need to run before transporting the > > unit, so as not to damage the hard drive? > > IIRC, it is built into the operating system and when the HD LED goes > out, the heads have been parked. > - don > > > TIA -- > > > > Glen > > 0/0 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 10 15:01:00 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: A quandry.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think what I'll do is post both HTML and PDF. The OCR ability in Abbyy FineReader is so good as to be spooky and since I verify and hand-correct any errors that do show up, those two formats should be sufficient. Expect CP/M 68K docs soon as well. g. On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Will Jennings wrote: > I dunno, I prefer TIFFs, but they have the disadvantage of being honkin' > huge.. But at least I can go and in be anal-retentive and edit them to look > better than the originals, can't edit pdfs nearly as much... > > Will J > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 10 15:17:00 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? Message-ID: <200210102016.NAA19593@clulw009.amd.com> Hi There really isn't much danger if the machine isn't moved. The heads are really quite smooth and landing doesn't cause any significant issues. The problem happens because the back edge of the head is very sharp. If the surface back rotates, just a tiny amount, this back edge will dig into the surface. Some of the early drives had an issue because of motor cogging. This would cause the disk to back rotate a little on stopping. The early fix for this was to put a one way brake on the spindles. Dwight >From: "Glen Goodwin" > >Thanks, Bob. I've been using this system off and on for a couple of years, >and it never occurred to me that I had to park the heads before each >power-down. Apparently there hasn't been any damage as a result, but I'll >start doing it . . . > >Glen >0/0 > >> From: Feldman, Robert >> To: 'cctalk@classiccmp.org' >> Subject: RE: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? >> Date: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:33 PM >> >> I seem to remember that self-parking heads generally were not available >on >> the 10MB drives of Kaypro 10 vintage, so I did a little Googling and came >up >> with the following >> >(http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n12/8_The_Kaypro_10_more_than_.php > >> ) from CREATIVE COMPUTING VOL. 9, NO. 12 / DECEMBER 1983: >> >> "A very important command is included in the Kaypro 10 system software. >> SAFETY moves the read/write heads on the hard disk to the safe landing >zone >> on the disk. This must be done before turning the power off or the >surface >> of the hard disk may be damaged. The SAFETY command is invoked from the >> command mode in CP/M." >> >> Bob >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:37 PM >> To: classiccmp >> Subject: Re: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: >> >> > Hi -- >> > >> > Thanks to Don Maslin I'll soon have a set of reload diskettes for my >> Kaypro >> > 10, and I plan to bring it from home to my shop to do the reload. >> > >> > Is there a "park" or "ship" command I need to run before transporting >the >> > unit, so as not to damage the hard drive? >> >> IIRC, it is built into the operating system and when the HD LED goes >> out, the heads have been parked. >> - don >> >> > TIA -- >> > >> > Glen >> > 0/0 > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 10 15:24:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: My awesome find!!! In-Reply-To: from "Will Jennings" at Oct 10, 2002 12:59:58 PM Message-ID: <200210102025.g9AKPQ324679@shell1.aracnet.com> > Hey all, > Yesterday I obtained a Documation card reader, 600cpm, for the total cost > of... *drumroll* $20! Anyone have docs? > > WOOOHOOO! > > Will J Lucky Bum! Do you have any kind of an interface for it? What are you planning to attach it to? Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 10 16:38:01 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010110541.01a8cd10@ubanproductions.com> References: <3DA5A2E5.6020201@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021010174033.0dcf806a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:15 AM 10/10/02 -0500, you wrote: >At 11:55 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: >>This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really great >>program! > >There was actual footage of Imlacs? I would really like to see that... What did >it show? Any chance someone recorded this and I can get a copy of the section >on Imlacs? I checked the History Channel web page for show times and it did >not list and future showings of this episode. > >--tom Did you check their website to see if it listed the show episodes? They usually sell video taped copies of the various episodes. You should be able to buy one via their website. Joe From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 10 16:50:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010110541.01a8cd10@ubanproductions.com> <3DA5B62F.4080100@tiac.net> Message-ID: <008c01c270a7$16f37ae0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > But yes, there are several shots of people using Imlac's, > probalby playing Mazewar in some shots Mazewar: is this the Olin Lathrop version? We had a Totally Excellent copy going at RPI. AFAIK it was *authored* by Mr. Lathrop. We had it served up on a Pr1me 750. > None of the shots showed the optional programmers console, > but perhaps this was not such a common accessory? At school we had maybe ~4 with; ~35 without. > No question, they were Imlacs. Congratulations Tom and Bob. Wonder how Sellam's Imlac is doing? BTW I checked the History channel's site. Nothing on this show this month after the 9th, so a tape would be useful. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 10 19:18:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Oct 9, 2 10:03:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1336 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021010/0146820a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 10 19:21:03 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question In-Reply-To: <200210101549.LAA65900465@shell.TheWorld.com> from "Megan" at Oct 10, 2 11:49:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 586 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021010/7063d691/attachment.ksh From cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net Thu Oct 10 19:32:01 2002 From: cmcnabb at 4mcnabb.net (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes Message-ID: <006001c270bd$bddd9320$3200a8c0@winnt> Well, after the recent discussion of scopes for vintage computers, I've put together a web page with a couple of pictures of two of my scopes. One is a Kenwood SM-220 station monitor that I use with the Ham Radio stuff. The other is a Tektronix RM-503 dual channel scope that I use for troubleshooting the PDP-8/E and perepherals. In the photo, it is sitting on top of a currently non-operational Sykes 7200 Dual 8" Disk drive. Here is the URL: http://cmcnabb.cc.vt.edu/scopes.html From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Oct 10 20:14:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question Message-ID: <200210110115.VAA65942573@shell.TheWorld.com> >Well, the PDP8/e has 2 rows of lights (Address, Data) on the panel too... >Or is that not what you meant. I'm familiar with the 8/E, I have one (and a LAB-8/E, too). This has more rows of lights than an 8/E,F,M. I don't have it in front of me, but I'm sure it had like 4 rows of lights (like an 8/I,L) and no rotary switch. >What boards are in it (M-numbers, etc)? That would help identify it, I >think. Of course... that would be simple... That is my next step... Megan From rmurphy at itm-inst.com Thu Oct 10 20:41:00 2002 From: rmurphy at itm-inst.com (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question In-Reply-To: <200210110115.VAA65942573@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021010213307.00a64810@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:15 PM 10/10/02 -0400, Megan wrote: > >Well, the PDP8/e has 2 rows of lights (Address, Data) on the panel > too... > >Or is that not what you meant. > >I'm familiar with the 8/E, I have one (and a LAB-8/E, too). This has >more rows of lights than an 8/E,F,M. I don't have it in front of me, >but I'm sure it had like 4 rows of lights (like an 8/I,L) and no >rotary switch. It could be what's referred to as a MARS (Memory Address and Register Status) panel. The only one of those I've ever seen was at our PDP8 FS lab in Parker Street. It's a full-height rack panel (same height as the 8/E) with several rows of lights for PC/AC/MQ/etc. -Rick From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 10 21:49:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: decnet Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC9A@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Megan, Yay, all the VAXen are now upstairs.. took a while, too :) I was playing with the DECserver 200.. works nicely, I have three "terminals" connected to it; a VT420 as "console", my Compaq AP400 workstation, and the serial port of the DEC VXT2000. The other ports are connected to the console ports of all the VAX and PDP11 machines... works like a charm. Also, I am able to open a DECterm LAT session to the services defined above (the console ports are all listed as LAT services). Question: do you have access to DECnet-for-Ultrix, or whatever provided Ultrix systems with LAT support? Cant find it, and it MUST be around somewhere, right? cheers, Fred From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Oct 10 22:09:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: decnet Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FC9C@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> *sigh* OK, sorry folks.. I'll give it up for t'nite and get some sleep, that might keep me from misdirecting even more email... (if anyone happens to HAVE the stuff mentioned, pse contact me off-list..) --fred (*bonk*bonk*bonk*) From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 11 00:09:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > RM-xxx is the Rack Mount version of the xxx. So the RM503 is a rackmount > 503 (IIRC, that one doesn't take plug-ins at all), the RM561 is a > rackmount 561 (later, smaller 500 series, taking plug-ins for both X and > Y). Right, I knew about the RM-xxx meaning rackmount, but I wondered if the 500 series might have shared a common design. > If the brightness control section is still good, is there any reason not > to bypass the switch on the back of it, and just use an external > double-pole switch in series with the mains input? It would at least > give you a working 'scope... Thats kinda how I found it when I got it...except that the wire that was used to jumper the switch had obviously gotten very hot. Since the wire had been tack soldered across the terminals, one side seems to have acted like a fuse. I imagine the power switch was probably damaged due to the same problem. Oh, and I found that someone had installed a much higher rated fuse in the scope than should have been installed... Needless to say, there is something else that needs to be fixed in the 'scope too :) > Indeed. And on some of the more complex 'scopes, like my 555, there's a > little spool of the special solder (it contains about 3% silver, like > the stuff now used for SMD assembly) mounted inside. To be used for > repairs, of course. My 561 also has that little spool of solder. I'm not sure if I saw it in one of the modules or if it was inside the main chassis. There was a warning label near the solder that indicated solver bearing solder was required to prevent damage to the silver-ceramic bond. > Unlike modern instruments, you were expected to repair the 500 series. > Not that they need it very often. I need to eventually track down manuals for the 561 and it's X/Y modules, but I've just got way too many projects right now ;) Do you know if the 561 will require genuine Tektronix probes like the newer 60MHz analog Teks I mentioned before? Thinking about it now, I believe I also have a 502 and 502A buried somewhere, currently in unknown condition. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 11 00:14:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:53 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <006001c270bd$bddd9320$3200a8c0@winnt> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote: > Well, after the recent discussion of scopes for vintage computers, I've > put together a web page with a couple of pictures of two of my scopes. > One is a Kenwood SM-220 station monitor that I use with the Ham Radio > stuff. The other is a Tektronix RM-503 dual channel scope that I use > for troubleshooting the PDP-8/E and perepherals. In the photo, it is > sitting on top of a currently non-operational Sykes 7200 Dual 8" Disk > drive. That 503 sure is a beauty. Many of the older scopes I've seen of that vintage were very dirty, and quite often had lots of dings/dents. -Toth From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 00:59:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011060018.92785.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> There is a Yahoo group for the restoration of old Tek scopes. I have found the people in it very helpful. The hobbies are somewhat similar, given that the older equipment was so much better built and maintainable. --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Christopher McNabb wrote: > > > Well, after the recent discussion of scopes for > vintage computers, I've > > put together a web page with a couple of pictures > of two of my scopes. > > One is a Kenwood SM-220 station monitor that I use > with the Ham Radio > > stuff. The other is a Tektronix RM-503 dual > channel scope that I use > > for troubleshooting the PDP-8/E and perepherals. > In the photo, it is > > sitting on top of a currently non-operational > Sykes 7200 Dual 8" Disk > > drive. > > That 503 sure is a beauty. Many of the older scopes > I've seen of that > vintage were very dirty, and quite often had lots of > dings/dents. > > -Toth > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jd at sourcecode.co.za Fri Oct 11 01:12:00 2002 From: jd at sourcecode.co.za (JD Gouws) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Software for Orion Unilab II?? Message-ID: <8D3112E09D20A14CBDE1502C2EF752900A1697@scpdc.sourcecode.co.za> FYI: I have a lot of docs on Z-80 and some of the related hardware like the real-time-clock-thingy. I haven't searched the net to see if these are already readily availible or not. If they aren't availible on the 'net or incomplete I will gladly scan mine in if someone is interested. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] Sent: 10 October 2002 04:41 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Software for Orion Unilab II?? Hello all, As part of a recent eBay win, I acquired an Orion Instruments Unilab II. I have cables/software for the Rockwell 65/11EAB, and am looking for cables/software for any other processor, especially the 1802, Z-80, 8080, 8088. If anyone has software available, and cabling diagrams, please let me know! I have complete docs available, as well as the software for the 65/11EAB... I'd also be willing to write out a cable diagram for the 65/11EAB. Thanks! Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Oct 11 01:50:01 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes References: <006001c270bd$bddd9320$3200a8c0@winnt> Message-ID: <004f01c270f2$ad0b7140$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Christopher McNabb wrote: > Well, after the recent discussion of scopes for vintage computers, > I've put together a web page with a couple of pictures of two of my > scopes. One is a Kenwood SM-220 station monitor that I use with the > Ham Radio stuff. The other is a Tektronix RM-503 dual channel scope > that I use for troubleshooting the PDP-8/E and perepherals. In the > photo, it is sitting on top of a currently non-operational Sykes 7200 > Dual 8" Disk drive. Wow. That Tek is a beauty... Unlike my Tek 466 analog storage scope. I still need a probe, new storage pouch (the studs are missing from the one on the scope now) and a front panel cover (big blue plastic thing used to protect the panel while the scope is in storage). But other than that, it's in great shape. I got it in a test equipment auction for about 10% normal retail price (40 GBP). And it works flawlessly. Did I mention I've also got the service manual? I found it in the storage pouch when I was checking it for damage after I got it home. It's still in as-new condition. Dud Tek use any oddball parts in the 466 (besides the CRT) that are now difficult to get? I'd like to stock up on spares for this thing before it fails. I've also got a Gould OS1100A, good condition (it works and produces a nice bright trace), 30MHz, dual trace, delay sweep scope that I'm selling for GBP100 ONO. Buyer collects or pays shipping. Anyone (preferably in England) want this thing? After "graduating" to a Tek, I see no reason to keep it. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 09:30:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so > disks to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled > using felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come > off without a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these > stupid things off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my > disks? I've tried WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an > upside down airblaster (freeze spray for half the price) and a few other > things and nothing works! Any citrus-based cleaner will generally work. The trick is to leave it on long enough for the chemical to soften up the sticky goo long enough to make it clot up and roll off with a paper towel or whatnot. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 09:32:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, John Lawson wrote: > There are several variations on this product, but Goo-Gone is what I > have used successfully in this case. IIRC, there was thread some months > back on this exact subject - might be worth a dusty stumble through the > Archives... There have been many threads on this subject over the years ;) Another name is Goof-Off! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 09:43:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <008c01c270a7$16f37ae0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, John Allain wrote: > > None of the shots showed the optional programmers console, > > but perhaps this was not such a common accessory? > > At school we had maybe ~4 with; ~35 without. I didn't get one with the PDS-1, but I got one with the PDS-1D. > Congratulations Tom and Bob. Wonder how Sellam's Imlac is doing? They are still in dust collection mode. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 10:07:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011150834.16670.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> I wanted to mention, that Goof-Off is a much "hotter" formulation than "Goo-Gone", and is MUCH MORE LIKELY to damage plastic. With any solvent, test it if possible before using! However, I've never had Goo-Gone damage plastic. Goof-Off, yes! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 11 10:57:01 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011104844.023784d0@pc> Dear Topco, I've created a web page to publicize and discuss the horrible misinterpretation of the facts of the history of computing as delivered to thousands of kids on your recent box of Corn Puffs. You can see it at: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/ I'd like to talk to the person who wrote and designed this box. I'd like to offer to serve as a consultant to help you design more accurate and more entertaining cereal boxes than this. Sincerely, John Foust (920) 674-5200 www.threedee.com/jcm From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 11 11:01:00 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: <20021011150834.16670.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011105632.0226f3f8@pc> At 08:08 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, Loboyko Steve wrote: >I wanted to mention, that Goof-Off is a much "hotter" >formulation than "Goo-Gone", and is MUCH MORE LIKELY >to damage plastic. I think Goof-Off is more petroleum-based, and Goo-Gone is citrus-based. Hydrocarbons all. :-) - John From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 11 11:14:00 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: <20021011150834.16670.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Loboyko Steve wrote: > I wanted to mention, that Goof-Off is a much "hotter" > formulation than "Goo-Gone", and is MUCH MORE LIKELY > to damage plastic. With any solvent, test it if > possible before using! However, I've never had > Goo-Gone damage plastic. Goof-Off, yes! Goof-Off is some extreme stuff. It WILL melt most case plastics, for example, enough to make it flexible in about 35 seconds. The other thing nobody's mentioned about both products is that they're highly toxic [0]. Especially with Goof-Off, I finally quit believing that "just this one thing" idea. If the cap's coming off the bottle, it's under the exhaust hood or outside. Doc [0] Not in any "fun" way, either. From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Oct 11 11:21:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes, another RM503! References: <006001c270bd$bddd9320$3200a8c0@winnt> Message-ID: <3DA6FB4A.2030304@tiac.net> Ok Vintage hardware fans... Yet another Tektronics RM503 scope? Yep, complete, functional, but it could use some tweaking, no screen burns is available in centeral MA. Due to the weight, I'd prefer not to ship this, so local pick-up is strongly prefered. (It has a good power switch) Any reasonable trade or offer will be accepted. From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Oct 11 11:32:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011104844.023784d0@pc> Message-ID: <3DA6FDE3.5070501@tiac.net> On the original floppy's being in cardboard... I have a very ancient Dicom 7 1/2 inch dual floppy disk system, and some media for those bizzare Memorex drives. Indeed, they are made from cardboard. Its been impregnated and pressed into a composite material, but it clearly is cardboard. Does anyone on the list know anything about these ancient 7 1/2 inch Memorex floppy drives? John Foust wrote: >Dear Topco, > >I've created a web page to publicize and discuss the horrible >misinterpretation of the facts of the history of computing >as delivered to thousands of kids on your recent box of >Corn Puffs. You can see it at: > >http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/ > >I'd like to talk to the person who wrote and designed this box. >I'd like to offer to serve as a consultant to help you design >more accurate and more entertaining cereal boxes than this. > >Sincerely, > >John Foust >(920) 674-5200 >www.threedee.com/jcm > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 11 12:10:00 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: <3DA6FDE3.5070501@tiac.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011104844.023784d0@pc> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011120535.056417a0@pc> At 12:35 PM 10/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On the original floppy's being in cardboard... >I have a very ancient Dicom 7 1/2 inch dual floppy disk system, and some media for those >bizzare Memorex drives. Indeed, they are made from cardboard. Its been impregnated and >pressed into a composite material, but it clearly is cardboard. I'm sure that's what the Topco artist meant. :-) - John From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 11 12:12:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question Message-ID: <200210111712.NAA65578726@shell.TheWorld.com> >It could be what's referred to as a MARS (Memory Address and Register >Status) panel. The only one of those I've ever seen was at our PDP8 FS >lab in Parker Street. It's a full-height rack panel (same height as the >8/E) with several rows of lights for PC/AC/MQ/etc. The front panel consists of the following EA MA INST o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o MB F E D WC CA B o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o Link AC Ion Par Prot Run o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o POWER | paddle switches SWITCH - - - - - The boards hang from the backplane (which is really grimey... can someone suggest how to clean it?) and are reachable from under the chassis: Front panel end ============================ M220 M220 M113 M111 M220 M220 M700 M700 M220 M220 M216 M115 M220 M220 M114 M310 M220 M220 M216 M310 M220 M220 M111 M310 M617 M617 M216 M310 M617 M617 M115 M160 M160 M160 M119 ---- M115 M216 M117 ---- M160 M111 M115 M113 M160 M113 M117 M111 M115 M119 M113 M310 ---- ---- M113 M310 fan ---- ---- ---- M216 side ---- ---- M360 M617 G020 G020 G221 G221 G020 G020 G221 G221 G020 G020 memory W025 W025 memory W025 W025 memory G228 G228 G221 G221 ---- G228 G221 G221 G624 G624 G228 G228 G624 G624 M102 ---- G624 G624 M623 M623 G785 G785 M115 M623 ---- ---- M660 M906 ---- ---- M660 M906 ---- ---- M707 M707 M516 ---- M706 M706 M516 ---- M452 20ma console connecter ---- ---- ---- ---- M111 ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ============================ fuses, power cord Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 11 12:14:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: decnet Message-ID: <200210111716.NAA65875383@shell.TheWorld.com> Unfortunately, I never had access to DECnet/Ultrix... that was done in a different group. I don't think it was ever updated for later versions of Ultrix. It may still just run, though. I think the last version of it was V4.2. I'm not sure what the legal issues are about Lat, though... I think it is owned (or is it only marketed) by Meridian, ltd. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 12:23:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question In-Reply-To: <200210111712.NAA65578726@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20021011172443.77997.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Megan wrote: > The front panel consists of the following > > EA MA INST > o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o > > MB F E D WC CA B > o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o > > Link AC Ion Par Prot Run > o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o > > > POWER | paddle switches > SWITCH > > - - - - - > > The boards hang from the backplane (which is really grimey... can > someone suggest how to clean it?) and are reachable from under > the chassis: > > Front panel end > ============================ > M220 M220 M113 M111 > M220 M220 M700 M700 > M220 M220 M216 M115 > M220 M220 M114 M310 > M220 M220 M216 M310 > M220 M220 M111 M310 > M617 M617 M216 M310 > M617 M617 M115 M160 > M160 M160 M119 ---- > M115 M216 M117 ---- > M160 M111 M115 M113 > M160 M113 M117 M111 > M115 M119 M113 M310 > ---- ---- M113 M310 > fan ---- ---- ---- M216 > side ---- ---- M360 M617 > G020 G020 G221 G221 > G020 G020 G221 G221 > G020 G020 memory > W025 W025 memory > W025 W025 memory > G228 G228 G221 G221 > ---- G228 G221 G221 > G624 G624 G228 G228 > G624 G624 M102 ---- > G624 G624 M623 M623 > G785 G785 M115 M623 > ---- ---- M660 M906 > ---- ---- M660 M906 > ---- ---- M707 M707 > M516 ---- M706 M706 > M516 ---- M452 20ma console connecter > ---- ---- ---- ---- > M111 ---- ---- ---- > ---- ---- ---- ---- > ============================ > fuses, power cord > > Megan Gentry That's a PDP-8/L. I've had one since 1982... no OMNIBUS. The blank spots are for the 13-bit parity stack (middle section) and for the high speed punch and reader and bus drivers and cable connectors for the BM08, etc. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 11 12:37:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: New acquisition, and question Message-ID: <200210111738.NAA64641528@shell.TheWorld.com> Okay, it is a PDP-8/L, but I don't remember an -8/L with the kind of paddle switches this one has... I seem to remember them being the rocker kind like on a pdp-8/I Megan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 11 12:50:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <3DA6FB4A.2030304@tiac.net> Message-ID: Did Tek have any models before the 512? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 11 13:03:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: <3DA6FDE3.5070501@tiac.net> Message-ID: I haven't seen a 7.5" diskette. Assuming that the picture is not to scale,... The floppy doesn't have an index hole. The notches on the leading edge are consistent (albeit not accurately placed) with the write-protect notch of an 8" disk. Further trivia: On "The Computer Bowl" a few years ago, Bill Gates' entire team could not state where the write-protect notch was on an 8" diskette! For our Computer Faire booth, we used to have a 5' inflatable toy Tyrannosaurus (wearing a valid admission badge as VP of Marketing) holding an 8" diskette with a bite out of it. One time, a little kid walked up and said, "that's not real." My assistant said, "that's right, it's just a plastic inflatable." The kid responded, "not that, you dork, that disk is fake." Bob said, "No, that's a real diskette; they used to make them like that." The kid rolled his eyes and said, "yeah. right." and walked away. On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > On the original floppy's being in cardboard... > > I have a very ancient Dicom 7 1/2 inch dual floppy disk system, and some > media for those > bizzare Memorex drives. Indeed, they are made from cardboard. Its been > impregnated and > pressed into a composite material, but it clearly is cardboard. > > Does anyone on the list know anything about these ancient 7 1/2 inch > Memorex floppy drives? > > John Foust wrote: > > >Dear Topco, > > > >I've created a web page to publicize and discuss the horrible > >misinterpretation of the facts of the history of computing > >as delivered to thousands of kids on your recent box of > >Corn Puffs. You can see it at: > > > >http://www.threedee.com/jcm/cereal/ > > > >I'd like to talk to the person who wrote and designed this box. > >I'd like to offer to serve as a consultant to help you design > >more accurate and more entertaining cereal boxes than this. > > > >Sincerely, > > > >John Foust > >(920) 674-5200 > >www.threedee.com/jcm From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 13:12:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > Goof-Off is some extreme stuff. It WILL melt most case plastics, for > example, enough to make it flexible in about 35 seconds. Definitely do NOT apply it directly to the object you are attempting to cleanse of evil goo. I always apply it first to a cloth and then use the cloth to buff the target. I've even used Goof-Off on cardboard boxes with crayon written on them (you know how some of those thrift stores use wax pencils to write prices on stuff--annoying). But I applied it to a towel first of course. > The other thing nobody's mentioned about both products is that they're > highly toxic [0]. Especially with Goof-Off, I finally quit believing > that "just this one thing" idea. If the cap's coming off the bottle, > it's under the exhaust hood or outside. > > Doc > > [0] Not in any "fun" way, either. Definitely not. I recommend PVC glue. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 13:14:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > For our Computer Faire booth, we used to have a 5' inflatable toy > Tyrannosaurus (wearing a valid admission badge as VP of Marketing) holding > an 8" diskette with a bite out of it. One time, a little kid walked up > and said, "that's not real." My assistant said, "that's right, it's just > a plastic inflatable." The kid responded, "not that, you dork, that disk > is fake." Bob said, "No, that's a real diskette; they used to make them > like that." The kid rolled his eyes and said, "yeah. right." and walked > away. Little punk... :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 11 13:20:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011120535.056417a0@pc> Message-ID: > And I don't think it's a short hop from having an LED light source to > having an LED calculator. Calculators existed with different displays > before LEDs. I used calculators with mechanical display, Nixie tubes, and CRTs > Watches and clocks? They were digital before LEDs, too. I've had mechanical digital clocks, but I can't recall any digital watches before LEDs. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 13:32:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Oct 11, 2 00:23:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021011/17fb81f2/attachment.ksh From jrice54 at charter.net Fri Oct 11 13:44:24 2002 From: jrice54 at charter.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation References: Message-ID: <3DA71E25.9040600@charter.net> I had a Caravelle by Bulova that was a mechanical digital display. Got it for a grad present in 1972. James >>Watches and clocks? They were digital before LEDs, too. > > I've had mechanical digital clocks, > but I can't recall any digital watches before LEDs. > > http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Oct 11 13:44:37 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes References: Message-ID: <002901c27156$65c17aa0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Did Tek have any models before the 512? Not sure. I think my Tek 466 dates back to about 1980. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From emu at ecubics.com Fri Oct 11 13:46:00 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal Message-ID: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Hi, what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. (not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) So, is there something like emulating VTxxx (52,100,200,320,340) and tektronix ? (probably even 38400 baud ? I really like to talk about terminals, not software for PC's emulating those ... cheers & thanks From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 11 13:58:00 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011120535.056417a0@pc> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011134043.0238f458@pc> At 11:21 AM 10/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: >> Watches and clocks? They were digital before LEDs, too. >I've had mechanical digital clocks, >but I can't recall any digital watches before LEDs. Point taken. I would say that there were digital LED non-portable clocks before there was a digital LED watch. Can anyone recognize their story about the invention and marketing of the first LED? Were they talking about the light-emitting diode itself, or the alphanumeric? This http://www.datamath.org/Display/Monsanto.htm points to Nick Holonyak, Jr. of GE as the inventor of the LED in 1962 and discusses how Monsanto developed the alphanumeric. Hamilton released the Pulsar LED watch in 1970. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 11 14:01:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: >what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? I've got VT100's, VT220's, VT320's and VT420's. Plus I've used VT520's, Wyse, and HP terminals as well as a couple others. My favorite is the VT420. Though I must admit I lust after a VT340+, but I have yet to get my hands on one. Oh, and the new VNC terminals that one or two companies make now, look most interesting.... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 11 14:02:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <04a901c27158$c7d549e0$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Favorite terminal depends on what you're using it for: My favorite terminal to use as a system console.... MicroTerm ACT IV. This is just a keyboard, and you use a 9" composite security monitor with it. LOVE the feel, high coolness factor. Not something you would use for programming everyday. My favorite terminal to use for everyday use... Either MicroTerm Act V - Very compact, no frills, bulletproof. Or - WYSE-30. My favorite terminal not to use, but just for looks and coolness factor - ADDS Consul 580. Very old, very cool, very vintage. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:48 PM Subject: Favorite terminal > Hi, > > what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? > > Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always > miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. > (not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) > > So, is there something like emulating VTxxx (52,100,200,320,340) and > tektronix ? (probably even 38400 baud ? > > I really like to talk about terminals, not software for PC's > emulating those ... > > cheers & thanks > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 14:06:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L troubleshooting (was Re: New acquisition, and question) In-Reply-To: <200210111738.NAA64641528@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20021011190731.21254.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Megan wrote: > Okay, it is a PDP-8/L, but I don't remember an -8/L with the kind > of paddle switches this one has... I seem to remember them being > the rocker kind like on a pdp-8/I All of my -8/Ls (3.5) have PDP-8/e-style toggle switches. My -8/I does have the rocker switches you describe. The 1970 Small Computer Handbook shows -8/Ls with paddle switches. Still a nice find, though. My -8/L is currenly my showcase machine - I fire up the ASR-33 and the PC04 (PC05?) and load FOCAL for folks. It was also my first-ever -8 - Dayton Hamfest, 1982, $35 + 8" floppy drive in trade. Got some minor processor glitch I haven't tracked down yet... I get the FOCAL prompt, but it won't load Hammurabi from either the ASR-33 or the high-speed reader. Most of the basic functionality is there - it runs an inchworm just fine. Once I fix the problem, I'll reattach the BM08 and bring it back up to 12KW and show people paper-tape BASIC and Star Trek (after I fix the tear in my floating-point tape ;-) When you get to debugging it and if you see any behavior that leads you to think there are hardware problems, after cleaning the card fingers, take a hard look at any 7474 chips. I rigged up a test clip to an automated IC tester to debug M-series modules out of the circuit (having never written any software to drive my VIC-20 M-series tester) and found that the most common chip to die anywhere in the machine was the 7474 dual D flip-flop. Unfortunately, there are several of them in the M220 Major Registers modules and this simplistic tester isn't able to cleanly test them because of the multiple interconnects. I have a small box of "to-be-repaired" M-series modules from my -8/L collection. It's mostly M220s and M216s, with an occasional M160 and M111. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Oct 11 14:16:00 2002 From: daw at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David A. Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/11/02, Zane H. Healy scribbled: > >what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? > > I've got VT100's, VT220's, VT320's and VT420's. Plus I've used VT520's, > Wyse, and HP terminals as well as a couple others. My favorite is the > VT420. Though I must admit I lust after a VT340+, but I have yet to get my > hands on one. > > Agreed. My favorite is the VT420 also, with the LK401 keyboard. And I'm referring to the black and white one, not the black and orange. What I like about the VT420 is 2 simultaneous login sessions. Either on 2 different TTY ports on one machine, or TTY on two different machines... -- --- David A. Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 11 14:26:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L troubleshooting (was Re: New acquisition, and question) Message-ID: <200210111927.PAA64055998@shell.TheWorld.com> Okay, I've seen a picture of a PDP-8/L and the switches are correct. But someone went and replaced the front panel on it so it is dark lettering on a white background, with no company logo... Darn... Megan From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 14:28:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021011192923.95104.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? > > I've got VT100's, VT220's, VT320's and VT420's. Plus I've used VT520's, > Wyse, and HP terminals as well as a couple others. My favorite is the > VT420. Though I must admit I lust after a VT340+, but I have yet to get > my hands on one. I'm happy with a VT102 or a VT220 (but not for VT-52 emulation - it doesn't accurately run the VTEDIT TECO macro) for most stuff. I also have a quantity of C-Itoh 101 (VT102 clones) and 101e (logically a VT102 clone, physically with a base and a tilt-screen) terminals. We were happy with them at SRC. One nice feature about the 101e is the internal digital clock on the setup screen (I had a DCL script called from my login script that shot the right escape sequence to my 101e so I could check the time by tapping the SETUP key). Another nice feature was that the printer port could also be used to provide a second session, but without the modern fancy real-time capture and refresh of the second session - if something comes down the pipe for the non-active session, it goes to the bit bucket. It was handy when in an app like an editor that could be refreshed, though. Stuff on the command line was gone forever if missed, so bad for compiles. When using an actual terminal these days, I'd say that 90% of my time is spent on a VT-220, one I've had since 1984. I'd love something newer. Nothing has fallen on me since I sold a MicroBus full of VT320s for 90% of the cost of the VAX they were attached to (bought uVAX-2000 with 6 terminals, DHT-32, and an external (2nd) RD54 for under $800, sold the terminals on the way home to a 3rd-party reseller in town for ~$100 each). If a VT-420 appeared locally (to save shipping costs), I'd snap it up in a heartbeat. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Fri Oct 11 14:28:21 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal Message-ID: >what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? >Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always >miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. >(not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) I have a very clean H19 terminal, with a graphics board by Northwest Technical Products (I think -- it's at home, and I'm supposed to be working :-)). I even have the manuals for the H19 and the graphics board. The board allows for some nice graphics capabilities, and 132 column text (SWEEEEEEEET in WordStar, though hard on the eyes). I use it as a terminal for my Compupro S-100 system ... Still works just fine, and it's clean and neat. A nice terminal.... Rich B., _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From univac2 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 14:28:31 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/11/02 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) at cisin@xenosoft.com wrote: > For our Computer Faire booth, we used to have a 5' inflatable toy > Tyrannosaurus (wearing a valid admission badge as VP of Marketing) holding > an 8" diskette with a bite out of it. One time, a little kid walked up > and said, "that's not real." My assistant said, "that's right, it's just > a plastic inflatable." The kid responded, "not that, you dork, that disk > is fake." Bob said, "No, that's a real diskette; they used to make them > like that." The kid rolled his eyes and said, "yeah. right." and walked > away. I've had a few experiences like that. But my little brother is 8 years old, and he knows what an 8" floppy is. I even had him using them on a TRS-80 Model II once. He's quite familiar with what most of the things in my collection are, and can tell the difference between the PDP-11/34 and the PDP-11/23. And he was smart enough to know that the two very large things on the floor that kept him from getting to his iMac for several months were disk drives. RK05j's to be exact. I recently promised to teach him Pascal. I recently promised to teach my father how to turn a computer on. :-) I've always thought that computer literacy classes in schools should teach computer history. -- Owen Robertson From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 11 14:29:00 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: > Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always > miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. > (not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) > > So, is there something like emulating VTxxx (52,100,200,320,340) and > tektronix ? (probably even 38400 baud ? > I used to have a VT52(?) terminal that I bbs'd on with a 300 baud acoustic modem. The keyboard was pretty neat in that it was nearly identical to what you'd find on a Kaypro 2 or 4. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 11 14:30:00 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <04a901c27158$c7d549e0$9701a8c0@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: > My favorite terminal not to use, but just for looks and coolness factor - > ADDS Consul 580. Very old, very cool, very vintage. > The Intertec(mec?) Intertube II was a cool looking terminal too. g. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 11 14:31:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: [maybe OT]: Removing pesky floppy disk labels In-Reply-To: References: <002301c26fce$8389fdc0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20021011152828.4cf75fe8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:31 AM 10/11/02 -0700, sellam wrote: >On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> OK, so here I am sitting at my computer with a stack of 100 or so >> disks to reformat. Unfortunately most of said disks have been labelled >> using felt-tip pen. And the labels are the nasty kind that don't come >> off without a fight. Sooo... Has anyone got a method that will get these >> stupid things off without leaving a gummy, sticky residue or damaging my >> disks? I've tried WD40 (didn't work at all), 3-in-1 oil (don't ask), an >> upside down airblaster (freeze spray for half the price) and a few other >> things and nothing works! > >Any citrus-based cleaner will generally work. The trick is to leave it >on long enough for the chemical to soften up the sticky goo long enough to >make it clot up and roll off with a paper towel or whatnot. I've found that it helps if you cover the cleaner with a piece of foil after you apply it to help slow down the evaporation. It also helps if you heat the surface before you apply the cleaner. The cleaner is flammable so don't try to heat it after applying it. Joe From emu at ecubics.com Fri Oct 11 14:33:00 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: Message-ID: <3DA727E7.8444440@ecubics.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I've got VT100's, VT220's, VT320's and VT420's. Plus I've used VT520's, > Wyse, and HP terminals as well as a couple others. My favorite is the > VT420. Dual session, is nice if you have to test something & work on the other machine ... > Though I must admit I lust after a VT340+, but I have yet to get my > hands on one. Yeeeeesssss. But they are still expensive, even VERY used. > Oh, and the new VNC terminals that one or two companies make now, look most > interesting.... And a vnc client for my pdp11 ? ;-) cheers From emu at ecubics.com Fri Oct 11 14:37:00 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: Message-ID: <3DA728EE.C04E0BCC@ecubics.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > > I used to have a VT52(?) terminal that I bbs'd on with a 300 baud acoustic > modem. The keyboard was pretty neat in that it was nearly identical to > what you'd find on a Kaypro 2 or 4. Yes, the vt52 was a nice one. The only "stackable" terminal I know of ;-) cheers From vaxzilla at jarai.org Fri Oct 11 14:40:00 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, emanuel stiebler wrote: > what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? > > Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always > miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. > (not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) > > So, is there something like emulating VTxxx (52,100,200,320,340) and > tektronix ? (probably even 38400 baud ? I've used VT100s, VT220s, VT320, VT420, VT525s, and various Wyse gear. In the VT series, I've two favorites--the VT320 w/LK201 keyboard would be the first. The second is the VT525 because it takes a standard SVGA monitor and PS/2 style keyboard. Another nice thing about the VT525 is all the various ISO character sets it supports by default which include Cyrillic, Hebrew, Greek, and Turkish. Many of the VT series have graphic plotting capabilities and they've also got sixel graphics modes. And don't forget the GIF viewer for VT320 terminals: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/graphics/gif320/README.html -brian. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Oct 11 14:50:00 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation References: Message-ID: <00ba01c2715f$adb139a0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Owen Robertson wrote: > I've had a few experiences like that. But my little brother is 8 > years old, and he knows what an 8" floppy is. My little brother is 13 years old and his PC has a 5.25" floppy drive fitted :-) > I even had him using > them on a TRS-80 Model II once. Quite an achievement. I often get asked to remove "that piece of junk" (the 5.25" drive) from his machine. I would if I had a blanking plate... > He's quite familiar with what most of > the things in my collection are, and can tell the difference between > the PDP-11/34 and the PDP-11/23. I don't have a PDP-anything, nor do I have the room for one. I would like to learn my way around the DEC operating system used on VAX machines (sorry, the name escapes me), and maybe get a MicroVAX or something small to start out with, though. My collection tends to center around oddball machines, singleboard computers, microprocessor trainers, that sort of thing. I'm currently building a COSMAC Elf (or I will be when the wire-wrap tool and CDP1861 VIDC arrive). > And he was smart enough to know that > the two very large things on the floor that kept him from getting to > his iMac for several months were disk drives. RK05j's to be exact. I'd kill for a PowerMac. If only I had the space... Another thing I want/need is a 10baseT Ethernet card or StrongARM CPU upgrade card (and Risc OS 3.7) for my Acorn Risc PC600. I want to put it on the local network and use it as an internet access/software development platform. > I recently promised to teach him Pascal. Planning to teach him C++, too? :-) I've been using Pascal since age 9, C++ since age 15. I despise C++. > I recently promised to teach > my father how to turn a computer on. :-) I tried to get my father to let me teach him - his response was "There's no point". He quickly changed his mind when his new job dictated that he write reports using a computer. His employer found out he didn't even know how to switch a computer on, so they sent him on a "basic computing" course. I've promised to teach him how to use the Internet on my network. > I've always thought that computer literacy classes in schools should > teach computer history. Me too. One of my previous IT teachers knew how to work M$ Word and that was about it. The janitor managed to bring down the network by pulling the power brick for the hub out of the wall. The IT guy spent 20mins the next morning (during my IT "lesson") looking at the settings on all the machines ("One machine's bad settings can corrupt the whole network"), then gave up. I noticed the hub was unplugged, plugged it back in and the fan in the hub started whirring. A few click-clunks from the hub later and the network was back up. Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From patrick at evocative.com Fri Oct 11 16:00:00 2002 From: patrick at evocative.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: > what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? Sounds like the favorite is the VT-group, eh? My personal all-time favorite is the Pr1me PT-100 (which I believe was a rebranded terminal of another name... anybody?) It rocked for emacs. Currently I use a Wyse-50 and VT-320 as a Unix console, and a Televideo 912C on my North Star Horizon (not my favorite, but it was original to the unit). I also have a NEC SpinWriter 5520, a daisy-wheel monster with a Selectric-style keyboard, which I like very much, but my wife complains bitterly about the size of it. I just show her some of the pictures you other guys have posted of your PDP-8s and -11s, 11/750's, etc., and it keeps her quiet for a while. ;-) Patrick From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 16:09:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011104844.023784d0@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 11, 2 10:53:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021011/4750dd66/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 16:10:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 11, 2 11:21:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021011/21bd93b8/attachment.ksh From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Oct 11 16:17:00 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: your RL02 problems In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020923160122.01b0ebe0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011162105.01aaa2b8@ubanproductions.com> Tom Uban 308 Jefferson Street Valparaiso, IN 46383 At 04:03 PM 9/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > > > Pat, > > > > How is your RL02 effort going? Are you done with my terminator yet? > >I haven't had much time to play with it lately. I'm pretty sure that it's >either a bad controller or drive. I'll try to get your terminator sent >back to you in the next couple days - could you send me your address again >so I don't have to go looking for it? > >Thanks. > >-- Pat From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 11 16:30:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at Oct 11, 2 12:48:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021011/fecf385c/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 11 16:44:01 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: from "David A. Woyciesjes" at Oct 11, 2002 03:18:42 PM Message-ID: <200210112145.g9BLjva17627@shell1.aracnet.com> > Agreed. My favorite is the VT420 also, with the LK401 keyboard. > And I'm referring to the black and white one, not the black and orange. > What I like about the VT420 is 2 simultaneous login sessions. Either on 2 > different TTY ports on one machine, or TTY on two different machines... The VT420 came in three types B&W, Green, and Amber, personally my favorite is the Amber, but I think I've got at least one of each type. I've got two I use all the time, one is the console on my two main servers, the other is plugged into two ports of a DECserver. If I had the desktop space, I'd probably have at least a couple more plugged into the decserver. Zane From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Fri Oct 11 16:52:01 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:54 2005 Subject: decnet Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FCAA@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Megan wrote: [pay attention folks, I actually got the addressing right this time *grin*] > I'm not sure what the legal issues are about Lat, though... I think > it is owned (or is it only marketed) by Meridian, ltd. I believe Meridian only marketed (and sublicensed) LAT from DEC, with DEC being its owner. DEC did most of its internal LAT code development, and Meridian did most of the 'external' versions, e.g. the stuff in PC-LAT, Cisco IOS's LAT code, and probably most others, given the cost of licensing it... twas cheaper to let them do it than to get your own license and do it... :) (this from memory and various readings on the Net) --f From donm at cts.com Fri Oct 11 17:16:01 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Feldman, Robert wrote: > I seem to remember that self-parking heads generally were not available on > the 10MB drives of Kaypro 10 vintage, so I did a little Googling and came up > with the following > (http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n12/8_The_Kaypro_10_more_than_.php > ) from CREATIVE COMPUTING VOL. 9, NO. 12 / DECEMBER 1983: > > "A very important command is included in the Kaypro 10 system software. > SAFETY moves the read/write heads on the hard disk to the safe landing zone > on the disk. This must be done before turning the power off or the surface > of the hard disk may be damaged. The SAFETY command is invoked from the > command mode in CP/M." > > Bob You are correct. My recollection was colored by a number of years experience with the TurboROM which does the automatic parking that I spoke to. - don > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:37 PM > To: classiccmp > Subject: Re: Park heads when moving Kaypro 10? > > > > > On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > Hi -- > > > > Thanks to Don Maslin I'll soon have a set of reload diskettes for my > Kaypro > > 10, and I plan to bring it from home to my shop to do the reload. > > > > Is there a "park" or "ship" command I need to run before transporting the > > unit, so as not to damage the hard drive? > > IIRC, it is built into the operating system and when the HD LED goes > out, the heads have been parked. > - don > > > TIA -- > > > > Glen > > 0/0 > From emu at ecubics.com Fri Oct 11 17:17:01 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: Message-ID: <3DA74E75.7C754BB@ecubics.com> Brian Chase wrote: > > I've used VT100s, VT220s, VT320, VT420, VT525s, and various Wyse gear. > In the VT series, I've two favorites--the VT320 w/LK201 keyboard would > be the first. The second is the VT525 because it takes a standard SVGA > monitor and PS/2 style keyboard. I have them here, but still miss something with graphics, or even tektronix emulation. And don't like to have the noise of a PC around my desk ... > Many of the VT series have graphic plotting capabilities and they've > also got sixel graphics modes. And don't forget the GIF viewer for > VT320 terminals: > ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/graphics/gif320/README.html Never tried it. cheers From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 11 17:46:00 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com>; from emu@ecubics.com on Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 20:48:05 CEST References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20021012003638.C16770@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.10.11 20:48 emanuel stiebler wrote: > what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? Well, I have two favorites: VT420 because it has this nice dual session feature (one for the alpha, one for the VAX) and a nice, white screen. But I dislike the DEC LK201 / LK401 keyboards. The other one is a newer Wyse. (Can't remember exact type) Only one session, but good, white screen and much better keyboard. Ahh, and the Tektronix 4006. Althogh its use is not the normal use of a terminal. This device (around 25 years old) has a storage tube and the primary use is to provocate astonished looks of unbelief. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pat at purdueriots.com Fri Oct 11 17:48:01 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: your RL02 problems In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021011162105.01aaa2b8@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry that I haven't gotten that back to you, I thought about it yesterday, but didn't get a chance to do it. I'll try _very_hard_ to get it sent out on monday. -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > Tom Uban > 308 Jefferson Street > Valparaiso, IN 46383 > > At 04:03 PM 9/23/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > How is your RL02 effort going? Are you done with my terminator yet? > > > >I haven't had much time to play with it lately. I'm pretty sure that it's > >either a bad controller or drive. I'll try to get your terminator sent > >back to you in the next couple days - could you send me your address again > >so I don't have to go looking for it? > > > >Thanks. > > > >-- Pat > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 11 18:07:00 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs Message-ID: <20021012010517.G16770@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. Are there any programming docs for the DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 available? I have one of this beasts and a NetBSD driver would be quite nice. This may be not to hard to accomplish, as there is already support for the other PDQ cards (DEF[TEP]A). -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 11 18:38:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <002901c27156$65c17aa0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Did Tek have any models before the 512? > Not sure. I think my Tek 466 dates back to about 1980. > Later. In 1972? I got a military surplus Tektronix scope. I think that the model number was 512. From NAVIGATE87 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 19:35:01 2002 From: NAVIGATE87 at aol.com (NAVIGATE87@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Semiconductor Cross Ref Help Message-ID: Rich, Check the website www.aecsales.com, They have the exact parts you need by the original manufacturer. When at the parts search page be sure to check the box for "restrict search to items with exact prefix". They have been very helpful finding obsolete parts for me. Don -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021011/182ec752/attachment.html From vaxzilla at jarai.org Fri Oct 11 19:40:00 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011173453.03a67db0@3am-software.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Matt Thomas wrote: > At 05:19 PM 10/11/2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I have a few DEFZAs here that I'd be happy to donate for driver > > hackitude. > > The question is whether anyone with the ability wants to write > such a driver. I know I don't! What if Dave were to send you a big bag of delicious candy corn with the DEFZA? Mmmm... candy. -brian. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 11 19:44:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote: > I've always thought that computer literacy classes in schools should teach > computer history. There have been complaints made about my spending time in my Operating Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!") From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Oct 11 20:04:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: decnet Message-ID: <200210120105.VAA63853701@shell.TheWorld.com> >I believe Meridian only marketed (and sublicensed) LAT from DEC, with >DEC being its owner. DEC did most of its internal LAT code development, >and Meridian did most of the 'external' versions, e.g. the stuff in >PC-LAT, Cisco IOS's LAT code, and probably most others, given the >cost of licensing it... twas cheaper to let them do it than to get >your own license and do it... :) Makes sense... we still maintain the lat source for Tru64 unix... I actually had a track bug through there a few years ago... Megan From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 20:16:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L troubleshooting (was Re: New acquisition, and question) In-Reply-To: <20021011190731.21254.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021012011712.46276.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> On the FOCAL issue, I think I read that FOCAL can't load text very quickly - you have to stop and start the tape every line or two. I have noticed this with my PDP/8e clone and not-very-fast (around 100 CPS) paper tape reader. It may use its own intepreter to store coding in RAM, so it might be very slow in this area. If you can load FOCAL itself in via paper tape, this kind of proves that the PTR itself is OK. --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Megan wrote: > > Okay, it is a PDP-8/L, but I don't remember an > -8/L with the kind > > of paddle switches this one has... I seem to > remember them being > > the rocker kind like on a pdp-8/I > > All of my -8/Ls (3.5) have PDP-8/e-style toggle > switches. My -8/I does > have the rocker switches you describe. > > The 1970 Small Computer Handbook shows -8/Ls with > paddle switches. > > Still a nice find, though. My -8/L is currenly my > showcase machine - > I fire up the ASR-33 and the PC04 (PC05?) and load > FOCAL for folks. > It was also my first-ever -8 - Dayton Hamfest, 1982, > $35 + 8" floppy > drive in trade. > > Got some minor processor glitch I haven't tracked > down yet... I get the > FOCAL prompt, but it won't load Hammurabi from > either the ASR-33 or > the high-speed reader. Most of the basic > functionality is there - it > runs an inchworm just fine. Once I fix the problem, > I'll reattach > the BM08 and bring it back up to 12KW and show > people paper-tape BASIC > and Star Trek (after I fix the tear in my > floating-point tape ;-) > > When you get to debugging it and if you see any > behavior that leads you > to think there are hardware problems, after cleaning > the card fingers, > take a hard look at any 7474 chips. I rigged up a > test clip to an > automated IC tester to debug M-series modules out of > the circuit (having > never written any software to drive my VIC-20 > M-series tester) and > found that the most common chip to die anywhere in > the machine was > the 7474 dual D flip-flop. Unfortunately, there are > several of them > in the M220 Major Registers modules and this > simplistic tester isn't > able to cleanly test them because of the multiple > interconnects. I > have a small box of "to-be-repaired" M-series > modules from my -8/L > collection. It's mostly M220s and M216s, with an > occasional M160 and > M111. > > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From dan at ekoan.com Fri Oct 11 20:32:01 2002 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA728EE.C04E0BCC@ecubics.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021011213941.048ba020@enigma> At 01:39 PM 10/11/02 -0600, you wrote: >Yes, the vt52 was a nice one. The only "stackable" terminal I know of >;-) I've got an Hewlett-Packard 2382A, the "one cubit foot" terminal that stacks quite nicely. The detached keyboard is another issue. I'd really like to find an AsciiScope, if only for the nostalgia factor. I used one in the late 1970's to program an HP 2000 ACCESS Timeshared BASIC system but haven't seen one since. Cheers, Dan http://www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Oct 11 20:55:01 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID Message-ID: <3DA78057.FA95375E@ccp.com> I have the possibility to pick up the following: Sun 600-2575-06 : 10" square by about 4" tall. Has drive and a whole lot of memory . . . . Sun Sparc Station 1 Model 147 p/n 608-2217-01 : 15" square by about 3" tall. Guess this is the pizza box model I only looked at both briefly, and not have any detailed info at this time. I can get matching monitors, but don't think there is a keyboard/mouse available. I was wondering if you can power them up w/o keyboard/mouse, just box and monitor to verify basic operation, whether dead or alive. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 21:00:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, emanuel stiebler wrote: > what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? Ok, I'll chime in. Mine is the Soroc IQ 120. I lusted after some big assed DECwriter teletype in my high school computer science class but Mr. Novak wouldn't let me have it no matter that it was dead, was no longer used to access the school district mainframe, and that I begged him incessantly. When I bought his killer Apple //e setup when school ended that summer he threw in the Soroc because he knew I would like it. I used to love just clacking away on that thing with no purpose other than to see the letters come up on the screen. I still have it. The first terminal of my collection. Now I have dozens. What do ya know? Someone OCR'd the manual. http://neurosis.hungry.com/~ben/hardware/soroc/ Rad! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 21:03:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: IN STYLE... THE SEX TRACKER! (fwd) Message-ID: Damn it! I'm getting spammed at this address. This is the third in about as many days. Did anyone else receive the above entitled spam? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 11 21:04:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > There have been complaints made about my spending time in my Operating > Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary > Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!") You should take the mouse away from people who complain like that. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From fauradon at frontiernet.net Fri Oct 11 21:04:10 2002 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: A quandry.... References: Message-ID: <002101c271a4$702a70c0$0264640a@auradon.com> It all depends on wether you want the data to be still "mostly "there if something goes wrong with the file. AFAIK PDF and TIFF will be totally unusable with any one byte missing. whereas HTML XML and other text based format will still have useable and recognizable data. Just my $0.02 Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: A quandry.... > I think what I'll do is post both HTML and PDF. The OCR ability in Abbyy > FineReader is so good as to be spooky and since I verify and hand-correct > any errors that do show up, those two formats should be sufficient. > > Expect CP/M 68K docs soon as well. > > g. > > > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Will Jennings wrote: > > > I dunno, I prefer TIFFs, but they have the disadvantage of being honkin' > > huge.. But at least I can go and in be anal-retentive and edit them to look > > better than the originals, can't edit pdfs nearly as much... > > > > Will J > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > From pat at purdueriots.com Fri Oct 11 22:01:01 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <3DA78057.FA95375E@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I have the possibility to pick up the following: > > Sun 600-2575-06 : 10" square by about 4" tall. Has drive and a whole > lot of memory . . . . Sounds like an IPX, IPC or LX - I'll have to look at mine to see what model # it has on it. Either way, there should be a tag with the model on the front (Unless it has fallen off or something). It's the "Lunch Box" style of case. > Sun Sparc Station 1 Model 147 p/n 608-2217-01 : 15" square by about 3" > tall. Guess this is the pizza box model > > > I can get matching monitors, but don't think there is a keyboard/mouse > available. I was wondering if you can power them up > w/o keyboard/mouse, just box and monitor to verify basic operation, > whether dead or alive. You can hook up a serial terminal to either (using port "A"), but if you're going to do that to the Lunch Box style one, you'll need a DIN-8 to DB-25 adaptor. Fortunately, one from a MAC will work just fine. Also, don't forget about putting a null modem in line with it. If you don't have a keyboard connected, the Sparc will default to the serial port, so you probably won't be able to see anything of use on the monitor. -- "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" -- Anonymous http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 11 22:05:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Oct 11, 2002 08:52:23 PM Message-ID: <200210120306.g9C36MY00940@shell1.aracnet.com> > I can get matching monitors, but don't think there is a keyboard/mouse > available. I was wondering if you can power them up > w/o keyboard/mouse, just box and monitor to verify basic operation, > whether dead or alive. You should be able to just plug a Terminal into the serial port. Zane From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Oct 11 22:20:01 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID References: <200210120306.g9C36MY00940@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3DA79455.E015FF7F@ccp.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > You should be able to just plug a Terminal into the serial port. > > Zane Okay, what's the protocall?? I presume 9600 baud 8 bit No parity one stop bit or 8N1? I presume Solaris is still on the HD, and I'll need some basic commands like directory list or something like that. I thought there would be a boot screen of some sort that had a logo, and that would indicate the CPU is fine, and the frame buffers. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 22:43:01 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021012034445.50326.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> The only think I can think of that is "special" about Tek probes is the 1X/10X switch grounds the small ring around the BNC connector, so that the unit will switch and the appropriate 1x/10x lamps will light automatically. Other good quality probes rated to the response of the scopes work fine other than that feature. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > RM-xxx is the Rack Mount version of the xxx. So > the RM503 is a rackmount > > > 503 (IIRC, that one doesn't take plug-ins at > all), the RM561 is a > > > rackmount 561 (later, smaller 500 series, taking > plug-ins for both X and > > > Y). > > > > Right, I knew about the RM-xxx meaning rackmount, > but I wondered if the > > 500 series might have shared a common design. > > Some did. The 53x, 54x, and (most of) 55x have > similarities in mechanical > construciton (and circuitry to some extent). The 53x > were the > low-bandwidth models and the 55x dual beam, of > course. All took the same > plug-ins. > > The 58x (100MHz bandwidth, with a beautiful CRT with > distributed > deflection plates and a built-in delay line) were > similar but took > different, higher-bandwidth plug-ins. You could use > the plug-ins from the > 53x, etc if you had a type 81 adpater between the > plug-in and the 'scope. > > The above series had plug-in Y preamplifiers, but in > general the > timebased (and X deflection system) was built into > the 'scope. There are > certainly 2 exceptions to that -- the 536 took 2 > 'normal' plug-ins (one > for each of X and Y -- there was a thing called a > type T which was a > timebase unit) and the 555 has plug-in timebases, > but they're special > modules, not interchangeable with anything else. The > only reason they > were plug-ins was to allow access for repairs, > really. > > The 56x were the odd ones. The insturments > (non-rack-mount versions) were > a lot smaller than the other series. The plug-ins > were totally different, > and all 'scopes took plug-ins for X and Y. > > > > > > If the brightness control section is still good, > is there any reason not > > > to bypass the switch on the back of it, and just > use an external > > > double-pole switch in series with the mains > input? It would at least > > > give you a working 'scope... > > > > Thats kinda how I found it when I got it...except > that the wire that was > > used to jumper the switch had obviously gotten > very hot. Since the wire > > had been tack soldered across the terminals, one > side seems to have acted > > like a fuse. I imagine the power switch was > probably damaged due to the > > same problem. Oh, and I found that someone had > installed a much higher > > rated fuse in the scope than should have been > installed... Needless to > > say, there is something else that needs to be > fixed in the 'scope too :) > > Hmm.. Why do idiots persist in over-rating fuses > when they blow??? > > OK, you've probably got a serious short somewhere in > the PSU section. A > smoothing capacitor if you're lucky, shorted turns > on the transformer if > you're not. Tekky used to claim that these > transformers have a lifetime > warranty, but apparently their definition of > 'lifetime' is not the same > as mine -- you will not get a free (or any other) > replacement now :-(. > > > > > Do you know if the 561 will require genuine > Tektronix probes like the > > newer 60MHz analog Teks I mentioned before? > > I wasn't aware _any_ Tektronix 'scopes needed > special probes (apart from > the plug-ins that came with integral probes). On > later 'scopes the probes > will do things like set the on-screen readout, but > that doesn't apply to > the 561. > > Provided the probe can match the input impedance of > the 'scope, it will > work fine. > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From vaxzilla at jarai.org Fri Oct 11 22:45:00 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > I have the possibility to pick up the following: > > > > Sun 600-2575-06 : 10" square by about 4" tall. Has drive and a whole > > lot of memory . . . . > > Sounds like an IPX, IPC or LX - I'll have to look at mine to see what > model # it has on it. Either way, there should be a tag with the model on > the front (Unless it has fallen off or something). It's the "Lunch Box" > style of case. The only reference turned up in Google for that number is in association with a Sparc IPC. Nice little Unix box; NetBSD ran like a dream on the one I had. The battery backed NVRAM can be problematic if the battery is dead. There's an excellent FAQ on this which you might find useful: http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html -brian. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Oct 11 22:53:01 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: decnet In-Reply-To: from "Fred N. van Kempen" at Oct 11, 2002 11:53:40 PM Message-ID: <200210120348.g9C3mwE12638@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I'm not sure what the legal issues are about Lat, though... I think > > it is owned (or is it only marketed) by Meridian, ltd. > I believe Meridian only marketed (and sublicensed) LAT from DEC, with > DEC being its owner. DEC did most of its internal LAT code development, > and Meridian did most of the 'external' versions, e.g. the stuff in > PC-LAT, Cisco IOS's LAT code, and probably most others, given the > cost of licensing it... twas cheaper to let them do it than to get > your own license and do it... :) I have a copy of Meridian's SuperLAT for Win9x/NT. They dropped the product and are no longer supporting or developing it. Too bad; it was helpful to have LAT to access LAT-based terminal servers. It doesn't seem to work with Win2K/XP. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From univac2 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 22:54:00 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: IN STYLE... THE SEX TRACKER! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/11/02 9:04 PM, Sellam Ismail at foo@siconic.com wrote: > Damn it! I'm getting spammed at this address. This is the third in about > as many days. Did anyone else receive the above entitled spam? Oh tell me it's not what it sounds like. :-) I've never gotten *that* spam. I always get boring ones, like "Fake Diploma - Completely Legal!" or "Watch This Stock!". But the closest I've come to that is an innexpensive alternative to Viagra. -- Owen Robertson From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 11 22:55:01 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <3DA79455.E015FF7F@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > You should be able to just plug a Terminal into the serial port. > > Okay, what's the protocall?? I presume 9600 baud 8 bit No parity one > stop bit or 8N1? I presume Solaris is still on the HD, and I'll need > some basic commands like directory list or something like that. Without knowing a login/password, all you are going to get after it boots is a login prompt. If the Sparcs are intact, I'd imagine there isn't anything wrong with either of them, as they are quite tough and well made. My Sparc LX didn't come with a hard drive, so the reason for it not working will be easy to cure. I didn't get a keyboard/mouse with my LX either, but would certainly like to have one if someone uncovers any. > I thought there would be a boot screen of some sort that had a logo, and > that would indicate the CPU is fine, and the frame buffers. If X is configured to start after boot, and you manage to find a keyboard and boot with the local console, you may get a GUI login box, though most of the useful bits of info will be shown when the kernel boots. -Toth From dittman at dittman.net Fri Oct 11 22:56:01 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 11, 2002 02:45:57 PM Message-ID: <200210120352.g9C3qF612658@narnia.int.dittman.net> > The VT420 came in three types B&W, Green, and Amber, personally my favorite > is the Amber, but I think I've got at least one of each type. I've got two > I use all the time, one is the console on my two main servers, the other is > plugged into two ports of a DECserver. If I had the desktop space, I'd > probably have at least a couple more plugged into the decserver. I really like the VT420, and my VT525 is nice, too, but for my emergency console I've got an LT320 plugged in to my DECserver 90M. The LT320 is nice and small, and I've got the table-mounted extension arm so it is out of the way. The LT320 is a third-party plasma terminal. There are MMJ and DB25 serial connectors, and LK201/401-compatible and AT-compatible keyboard connectors. I use an LK401 with mine. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From alex at trdlnk.com Fri Oct 11 22:59:01 2002 From: alex at trdlnk.com (alex) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: SunOS 4.1.4 Domestic Kit Message-ID: <200210120400.XAA03973@trdlnk.com> Hi! I'm new to this list and I was referred here by a gentleman from sunmanagers. I have been looking for a few software packages for some time now and most of these I was able to find from people on sunmanagers. However there are three pieces of software that I still haven't been able to find, perhaps somebody can help? SunOS 4.1.4 Domestic Kit, this is the encryption addon for SunOS 4.1.4. I already have the install media, so I only need the addon. SunPC 4.2, I have a SunPC card for my SPARC 5 running Solaris 2.6, but I have been looking high and low for the drivers... Can't seem to find them anywhere. FastEthernet 1.0, I have a BigMac (be) based SBus card for my SunOS 4.1.4 box and these drivers seem to be hard to find also. With the software CD there are drivers for SunOS 4.x and I am looking for these. If any of you have, or know somebody who has, any or all of these titles, I'd very much appreciate hearing from you. Sun doesn't feel like helping me out and I can understand that; It's just a little frustrating to have an _almost_ complete setup... =) Anyway, thanks to everybody on beforehand and I just wanted to say that what I've seen on this list so far, I think I'll enjoy it! =) -Alex From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 23:19:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <3DA78057.FA95375E@ccp.com> Message-ID: <20021012042015.7763.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I have the possibility to pick up the following: > > Sun 600-2575-06 : 10" square by about 4" tall. Has drive and a whole > lot of memory . . . . Don't recognize that number. 10"x10"x4" sounds like an IPC/IPX/LX/Classic enclosure. IPCs and IPXs are sun4c architecture (eqiv to SPARC 1+ and SPARC 2, respectively), the LX and Classic are sun4m and can run Solaris 8 and 9 (with enough parity 72pin SIMMs - 64MB at least to run the installer). > Sun Sparc Station 1 Model 147 p/n 608-2217-01 : 15" square by about 3" > tall. Guess this is the pizza box model Sun 4c, runs Linux, SunOS, Solaris (poorly) - 12MHz? original SPARC processor. Like an IPC or SPARC 1+, but not as fast. Uses 30 pin parity memory. May not like 3 chip PC SIMMs. Prefers 9 chip SIMMs. Can take 1MB, probably takes 4MB (mine did). > I only looked at both briefly, and not have any detailed info at this > time. s'ok... > I can get matching monitors, but don't think there is a keyboard/mouse > available. I was wondering if you can power them up > w/o keyboard/mouse, just box and monitor to verify basic operation, > whether dead or alive. Yes. You can power any of them up with a terminal on the correct serial port (can't remember A vs B and can't easily look up at the moment). Default is 9600 baud, probably 8n1. It _is_ possible for the EEPROM settings to look for a keyboard/framebuffer only, but typical settings are to use framebuffer if a keyboard is found, or else use the serial port for a serial console. Most sun4c machines (SPARC 1, 1+, 2, IPC, IPX, ELC...) have old enough clock batteries that they are dead. The "problem" is that the system ID and the ethernet address are in the battery-backed-up SRAM. There is a magical bar code and alpha-numeric code on the lid that only Sun can reverse into a system ID (which is an 8-bit machine-type code plus the lower 24 bits of the ethernet address). The Suns-at-Home list just posted a Fourth command to enter at the "OK" ROM prompt that converts an ELC's (and maybe one other model's) code back into a 24-bit number (treat the chars as a Base-24 number and subtract an offset and convert to hex), but mostly, if the battery dies, the hardware address will be FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF rather than 08:00:20:X:Y:Z and the original is lost forever. If you have any router or system logs with the old MAC address, you can copy it to a new chip. BTW, there was apparently a mask-shrink and the new die doesn't like to play with some ancient Suns. At this point, sun4c machines are at the "hauled away as a nuisance" level because of the lack of support of sun4c in recent editions of Solaris, and the max memory is 64MB except for the SPARC 2 which can take 128MB with a rare and expensive add-in board. I'll be glad to answer what I can, but in the meantime, here are a couple of key URLs for new or potential Sun owners... http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html (how to recover from a dead NVRAM) http://www.sunhelp.org/ (general help) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Oct 11 23:45:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <200210120352.g9C3qF612658@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3DA7A922.E70A8643@compsys.to> >Eric Dittman wrote: > The LT320 is a third-party plasma terminal. There are MMJ and > DB25 serial connectors, and LK201/401-compatible and AT-compatible > keyboard connectors. I use an LK401 with mine. Jerome Fine replies: I presume the LK201 and the LK401 are plug compatible? Also, what are the actual differences and why do you prefer the LK401? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Oct 11 23:52:01 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: from "Jerome H. Fine" at Oct 12, 2002 12:46:26 AM Message-ID: <200210120448.g9C4mVk12860@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The LT320 is a third-party plasma terminal. There are MMJ and > > DB25 serial connectors, and LK201/401-compatible and AT-compatible > > keyboard connectors. I use an LK401 with mine. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I presume the LK201 and the LK401 are plug compatible? Yes. > Also, what are the actual differences and why do you prefer > the LK401? I prefer the LK401 as it has the legs to raise the back built- in, and I have a couple of LK401 keyboards, and my LK201 died a while back. I'm sure there are pictures of the two on the web somewhere, but I'm not sure where. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Oct 11 23:53:00 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID References: Message-ID: <3DA7AA43.528DF347@ccp.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Sounds like an IPX, IPC or LX - I'll have to look at mine to see what > model # it has on it. Either way, there should be a tag with the model on > the front (Unless it has fallen off or something). It's the "Lunch Box" > style of case Well, that got me closer to home. It is an IPC and looks like it isn't really worth the time and effort. Just wonering how well they run Linux with X. If I can find a keyboard and mouse, I may pick it up if it is really cheap. I'm guesstimating it had 8 of the 12 memory banks filled, so that has to be either 8 meg or 32. Looks like a really low grade Sun, with the usual killer gfx output. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 11 23:56:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: from "Jerome H. Fine" at Oct 12, 2002 12:46:26 AM Message-ID: <200210120457.g9C4vHa04312@shell1.aracnet.com> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I presume the LK201 and the LK401 are plug compatible? > > Also, what are the actual differences and why do you prefer > the LK401? Yes, they are compatable/interchangable. I've ended up with a LK201 attached to the VT420 on my PDP-11/73 somehow, but the rest of the VT420's I'm using have LK401's. I prefer the LK401's as they 'feel' better to me. I think the keys are slightly different in shape/angle. I just wish they had the flap that at least some LK201's have to put the piece of cardboard that shows what the function keys are mapped to. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 12 00:00:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 11, 2002 09:20:15 PM Message-ID: <200210120502.g9C52Ad04550@shell1.aracnet.com> > Solaris, and the max memory is 64MB except for the SPARC 2 which can > take 128MB with a rare and expensive add-in board. Isn't that 96MB with a rare and expensive add-in board, and 128MB with an EVEN rarer and expensive daughter board for the rare and expensive add-in board. Zane (Sorry, I couldn't resist, but from what I've seen it's true (each of my Sparc 2's has 96MB)). From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 00:07:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <200210120457.g9C4vHa04312@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20021012050831.9313.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> The LK401's are incredibly cheap and not really designed to be repairable, but I did repair one, because I had to, on one of my VT320's. It uses conductive rubber button/rubber sheet/metallized flexible PCB technology with a microcontroller. I thought one of the keys had a "dome" cut, but after taking it apart and removing the unspeakable crud/moldy food/human grime, I determined that the crud was stopping the key from making contact well. I cleaned it, bathed/409'd the keys and the entire keyboard in the bathtub except the flexible PCB's and it was like new! I like the shape of ADM-3's and early Televideo's. I wish I had one of the "eames era" DG Dasher terminals, I passed one up on eBay some time ago. Early Televideo keyboards (including the early PC keyboards were the absolute best, even better than IBM's, IMHO. The PLATO terminal I briefly used at Purdue was the neatest looking display, ever, but I don't remember much about it. --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Jerome Fine replies: > > > > I presume the LK201 and the LK401 are plug > compatible? > > > > Also, what are the actual differences and why do > you prefer > > the LK401? > > Yes, they are compatable/interchangable. I've ended > up with a LK201 > attached to the VT420 on my PDP-11/73 somehow, but > the rest of the VT420's > I'm using have LK401's. I prefer the LK401's as > they 'feel' better to me. > I think the keys are slightly different in > shape/angle. I just wish they > had the flap that at least some LK201's have to put > the piece of cardboard > that shows what the function keys are mapped to. > > Zane __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From jruschme at netzero.net Sat Oct 12 00:10:00 2002 From: jruschme at netzero.net (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <3DA7AA43.528DF347@ccp.com> Message-ID: > From: Gary Hildebrand > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:51 AM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sun Sparc ID > > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Sounds like an IPX, IPC or LX - I'll have to look at mine to see what > > model # it has on it. Either way, there should be a tag with > the model on > > the front (Unless it has fallen off or something). It's the "Lunch Box" > > style of case > > Well, that got me closer to home. It is an IPC and looks like it isn't > really worth the time and effort. Just wonering how well they run Linux > with X. On a Sun4c system like the IPC, the canonical wisdom is to avoid Linux because of performance issues related to problems in the memory management code. The better bet is NetBSD (go with 1.5.3) or OpenBSD. > Looks like a really low grade Sun, with the usual killer gfx output. IIRC, IPCs had mono onboard video. <<>> From hansp at aconit.org Sat Oct 12 01:02:01 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Computer exhibit and school lkids - was Re: Corn Puffs box misinformation References: Message-ID: <3DA7BB29.30502@aconit.org> Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote: >>I've always thought that computer literacy classes in schools should teach >>computer history. > There have been complaints made about my spending time in my Operating > Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary > Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!") We are exhibiting some old computers (PDP8/f, IBM 5110, Tektronix 4052, Xerox 1186 etc all working to some extent or other) and have had visits from school classes. Yesterday a TV team came to film and part of the show was an interview with a 10 year old or so girl who affirmed that you could do more, and more interesting, things with old computers than with new ones! The interviewer asked if she was sure and she said yes! Out of the mouths of babes... Another class a girl of about the same age who in the course of about 30 minutes managed to master binary, octal and was on the way to understanding the basics of PDP-8 machine language before being dragged away when her class left. There is hope yet!! One thing I continue to struggle with is how to display a working system so as to attract the interests of the passing visitor. Any display must be quick enough to capture the visitors interest but not too long to bore them. It must connect with the visitor to make sense to them and must somehow show the essentials of the software. I don't think I have solved that problem yet in any general way. For the PDP-8 we have the CPU box, no terminal. I loaded a 30 instruction program to calculate the average of a sequnece of numbers entered on the keys. It takes about 15 minutes of so to teach a group of kids to enter binary numbers and read the result. The most common comment (before we start) is : "Where's the screen and keyboard?" -- hbp From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Oct 12 02:09:01 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Computer exhibit and school lkids - was Re: Corn Puffs box misinformation References: <3DA7BB29.30502@aconit.org> Message-ID: <000701c271be$936e4ec0$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Hans B Pufal wrote: > For the PDP-8 we have the CPU box, no terminal. I loaded a 30 > instruction program to calculate the average of a sequnece of numbers > entered on the keys. It takes about 15 minutes of so to teach a group > of kids to enter binary numbers and read the result. The most common > comment (before we start) is : "Where's the screen and keyboard?" I can understand why :-) OTOH, I do like the glow of a set of blinkenlights while I'm coding. Shame I still need a few bargraph LED displays and a random number generator to duplicate the effect on my PC... Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 12 03:30:01 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:48:05 MDT." <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <200210111950.UAA25403@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, emanuel stiebler said: > > > what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? > I'm using a Qume QVT103 which is ok, and I'm hoping soon to acquire a keyboard for my Cifer T5 which I believe does Tek graphics. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From SecretaryBird at SoftHome.net Sat Oct 12 04:04:01 2002 From: SecretaryBird at SoftHome.net (Otter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: My First S-100 System Message-ID: <3DA782E8.10643.56B57D6@localhost> Hi all! I just discovered this mailing list a couple nights back. Now I have a place to share my cool classic comp acquisitions. :) Anyway, last weekend, when I reported to my squadron for our monthly drill, I was informed that one of our officers had brought in a whole bunch of old computer stuff that I might be interested in (he's moving across country and isn't able to pack it with him.) I had a great time sifting through the massive amount of classics that were stacked at the back of the dining hall, and deciding what I should claim. Since our little apartment here is short on storage space at the moment, I just selected a Cromemco System Two and a Cromemco System Three, as well as a box of various S-100 cards, manuals, and disks (including a complete set of Cromix-Plus and Unix System V floppies.) Had I realized that the thing that looked like a jerry can, which I thought was most likely a power supply of some sort was actually a Cromemco hard drive, I would have taken it along with the Cromemco System One that was sitting in front of it as well. Oh well, live and learn. :/ So the next day, after final roll call, I load up the stuff in the truck of the guy who gave me a ride home, and me and my roommate that afternoon start looking over everything. We were disappointed that the System Three was totally stripped of all cards (though it does have a pair of 8 inch floppy drives). The System Two on the other hand, was a different story. Not only does it have a pair of floppies, but it also has a 21MB hard drive, 3 256K RAM cards, and a couple other cards I can't remember at the moment. Since we are in need of some cash at the moment, we went ahead and put some of the excess stuff (spare manuals, extra cards, and the Fortran 77 and 68000 C packages up for auction. We might also sell off one of the 256K cards that's in the System Two as well. But that isn't the point of this post (not wanting to turn this into a FA posting, y'know). We are looking forward to one day having the room to set up the System Two and actually making her a part of our little home LAN. I'm predicting that this is going to be a long term project, much like restoring a classic car. I suppose the most important thing I need to get for her is some sort of terminal/control console. Fortunately, dumb terminals show up at the thrift stores around here every so often, as well as other interesting bits of old computer parts (I have an IBM 3274 Terminal Controller set up as a TV stand in my room. For only $10, it is a much cooler piece than the usual bits of overpriced furniture Goodwill normally gets...) I'm also wondering if this little honey could be used as a console for the Cromemco system... http://www.oz.net/~otter/gallery/Geek-Console.JPG Sorry. Can't remember what model number it is at the moment. It is way too heavy for me to move by myself so I can see the label on the back. :p As for the System Three; we haven't decided what to do with it yet. It doesn't have enough stuff with it to make it worth the hassles of auctioning (plus, without having an operational car at the moment, shipping would be an enormous logistical challenge.) If someone can come pick it up (Kitsap County, WA), I would be open to some sort of reasonable buy or preferably trade offer; especially if I could trade it for a Commodore PET (been wanting one of those ever since I saw one back in the old days on an episode of Buck Rogers, and later in the background in Kirk's apartment in Star Trek II: http://www.oz.net/~otter/images/scr-st2-1.JPG Anyway, enough incoherent babbling from me for now. Time for me to catch a bit of sleep. Later! -- Scarletdown P.S. If anyone is interested, I can send off an email to someone at my squadron Monday Morning to find out where that Cromemco System One was donated to. From mhscc at canada.com Sat Oct 12 04:57:01 2002 From: mhscc at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes Message-ID: <000901c271d6$01785ac0$5b4a3dcf@msed03> In the August 1968 issue of the "Tektronix Service Scope" there is an article comparing the 512 to the new 323 (the first 'scope manufactured by Sony/Tektronix), and although the article doesn't specifically say so, it does sound like the 512 was the first Tek scope, introduced in May 1949. In another issue an article on power supply troubleshooting does state (in bold print at that) that power transformers are warranted for the life of the instrument (mind you, I guess if the transformer goes, the instrument's pretty dead :). I'll gladly photocopy the relevant page if anybody wants to try to get a free replacement :). Also, further to Toth & Tony's discussion, according to Tek the most common problem when the fuse blows immediately is a shorted diode in the bridge. mike ------------Original Message------------ Message: 43 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:39:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Vintage Scopes Reply-To: cctalk@classiccmp.org On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Did Tek have any models before the 512? > Not sure. I think my Tek 466 dates back to about 1980. > Later. In 1972? I got a military surplus Tektronix scope. I think that the model number was 512. From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Sat Oct 12 05:22:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: decnet Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FCAD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Eric, (and others) > I have a copy of Meridian's SuperLAT for Win9x/NT. They dropped > the product and are no longer supporting or developing it. Too > bad; it was helpful to have LAT to access LAT-based terminal > servers. It doesn't seem to work with Win2K/XP. Dunno about the legality of this, but: I do have Pathworks32 which should work.. Personally, I use Reflection/X for terminal stuff, as it supports both the serial ports and network connections, including LAT and X11.. :) --f From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 12 07:15:01 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: decnet In-Reply-To: from "Fred N. van Kempen" at Oct 12, 2002 12:23:17 PM Message-ID: <200210121211.g9CCBYW13380@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I have a copy of Meridian's SuperLAT for Win9x/NT. They dropped > > the product and are no longer supporting or developing it. Too > > bad; it was helpful to have LAT to access LAT-based terminal > > servers. It doesn't seem to work with Win2K/XP. > Dunno about the legality of this, but: I do have Pathworks32 > which should work.. Which version? The version I have (V7.2) doesn't work with XP. The LAT driver doesn't work with Win2K, IIRC. > Personally, I use Reflection/X for terminal stuff, as it supports > both the serial ports and network connections, including LAT and > X11.. :) I use Reflection for X, too, and the LAT driver didn't work in Win2K. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 12 08:15:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: IN STYLE... THE SEX TRACKER! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Owen Robertson wrote: > > Damn it! I'm getting spammed at this address. This is the third in about > > as many days. Did anyone else receive the above entitled spam? > > Oh tell me it's not what it sounds like. :-) It might be a virus that someone on the list has. > I've never gotten *that* spam. I always get boring ones, like "Fake Diploma > - Completely Legal!" or "Watch This Stock!". But the closest I've come to > that is an innexpensive alternative to Viagra. I went into an ice cream shop in Mexico and one of the flavors was "Viagra". I bought a cup but it didn't do anything. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 12 08:17:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Computer exhibit and school lkids - was Re: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: <3DA7BB29.30502@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Hans B Pufal wrote: > One thing I continue to struggle with is how to display a working system > so as to attract the interests of the passing visitor. Any display must > be quick enough to capture the visitors interest but not too long to > bore them. It must connect with the visitor to make sense to them and > must somehow show the essentials of the software. I don't think I have > solved that problem yet in any general way. GAMES! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From djg at drs-esg.com Sat Oct 12 08:21:00 2002 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: My awesome find!!! Message-ID: <200210121322.JAA00402@drs-esg.com> >Hey all, >Yesterday I obtained a Documation card reader, 600cpm, for the total cost >of... *drumroll* $20! Anyone have docs? > It may not be useful but I have the Documation M200 card reader manual at http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=168 David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 12 08:23:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: My First S-100 System In-Reply-To: <3DA782E8.10643.56B57D6@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Otter wrote: > I'm also wondering if this little honey could be used as a console > for the Cromemco system... > > http://www.oz.net/~otter/gallery/Geek-Console.JPG That's most likely an IBM System/23 (or a 51x0?) I'm not terribly familiar with them beyond recognizing their shape. But anyway, I'm sure you could use it as a terminal IF it has an RS-232 port and IF you can either get or write some terminal software for it. Which goes for just about any PC in existence. > As for the System Three; we haven't decided what to do with it yet. > It doesn't have enough stuff with it to make it worth the hassles of > auctioning (plus, without having an operational car at the moment, > shipping would be an enormous logistical challenge.) If someone can You may have a full card set for it in all the S-100 boards you took from the pile. What cards did you get? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 12 09:14:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> How about the BBN BitGraph? VT-100, with a 'real' VT-100 keyboard, and Tektronics emulation, all done on a 68000 CPU. One of my personal favorites has always been the HP 2647's though, built like tanks! emanuel stiebler wrote: >Hi, > >what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? > >Now I have all this nice VTxxx I ever wanted, but they always >miss the graphics capabilities, I had on my terminals in the office. >(not talking about GUIs, just few nice lines on the screen) > >So, is there something like emulating VTxxx (52,100,200,320,340) and >tektronix ? (probably even 38400 baud ? > >I really like to talk about terminals, not software for PC's >emulating those ... > >cheers & thanks > From hansp at aconit.org Sat Oct 12 10:09:00 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:55 2005 Subject: My awesome find!!! References: <200210121322.JAA00402@drs-esg.com> Message-ID: <3DA83B66.2030409@aconit.org> David Gesswein wrote: >>Hey all, >>Yesterday I obtained a Documation card reader, 600cpm, for the total cost >>of... *drumroll* $20! Anyone have docs? >> > > It may not be useful but I have the Documation M200 card reader manual at > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=168 It should be adequate. We used this document and figured out how to interface our card reader to a PC. If you want details of our lashup contact me off list. -- hbp From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 10:43:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021012154447.2262.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > Well, that got me closer to home. It is an IPC and looks like it isn't > > really worth the time and effort. Just wonering how well they run > > Linux with X. > > On a Sun4c system like the IPC, the canonical wisdom is to avoid Linux > because of performance issues related to problems in the memory > management code. The better bet is NetBSD (go with 1.5.3) or OpenBSD. Agreed. Linux on sun4c is a *dog* (I tried to install Suse on a 1+) On a 32MB machine, Solaris 2.5.1 runs faster. > > Looks like a really low grade Sun, with the usual killer gfx output. > > IIRC, IPCs had mono onboard video. Yes. A BW2 frame buffer. CG3s (basic Sun video) and CG6s (mildly accelerated) are inexpensive to free. They are both 8-bit. You probably don't want to deal with 24-bit graphics on hardware that old. It's slow as molasses in January, but it does exist. If the IPC was free and you had a burning desire to play with a SPARC, by all means go for it. For people who want to learn Solaris (friends who are looking to enhance their career opportunities), I'm recommending OT hardware - SPARC5, Ultra 1/170e, etc. To put prices into perspective, I picked up an as-is SPARC 5/110 at Dayton for $40, with 3 x 32MB (the cheap bastards), 5 x 8MB, no disk, drive sled, 100BaseTX/Wide SCSI and a dead PSU. Obviously, I paid too much, but I did get a couple of $10 DIMMs, a sled, a 100BaseTX card, and a spare motherboard for my troubles. I would not pay anywhere near half that for sun4c hardware. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From emu at ecubics.com Sat Oct 12 11:10:00 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3DA849F8.3E846E4C@ecubics.com> Bob Shannon wrote: > > How about the BBN BitGraph? > > VT-100, with a 'real' VT-100 keyboard, and Tektronics emulation, all > done on a 68000 > CPU. Now we're talking ! And where to get such a beast ? cheers From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Oct 12 11:38:00 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Morrow DiskJockey 2B Message-ID: <000001c2720d$ed3ceed0$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I just received a Morrow DiskJockey 2D Mod B from Jim's Garage Sale (Thanks Jim!) and I had a couple of quick questions: There are two sets of switches on the board. What do those configure and what are the settings? There is a 2708 on the board labeled BV/2. Is this a disk BIOS or a boot loader? I'm hoping to use this in my Altair to drive a pair of 801s I've got in a Lobo chasis. (My next questions will revolve around how do I get CP/M to run, etc.) I've ordered a manual from Herb Johnson but I figured I'd ask the experts for a quicker answer. Thanks in advance! Erik S. Klein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021012/e2f48b51/attachment.html From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Oct 12 11:50:00 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID References: <20021012154447.2262.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DA85243.ABE64547@ccp.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > IIRC, IPCs had mono onboard video. > > Yes. A BW2 frame buffer. CG3s (basic Sun video) and CG6s (mildly > accelerated) are inexpensive to free. They are both 8-bit. You > probably don't want to deal with 24-bit graphics on hardware that old. > It's slow as molasses in January, but it does exist. > > If the IPC was free and you had a burning desire to play with a SPARC, > by all means go for it. For people who want to learn Solaris (friends > who are looking to enhance their career opportunities), I'm recommending > OT hardware - SPARC5, Ultra 1/170e, etc. To put prices into perspective, > I picked up an as-is SPARC 5/110 at Dayton for $40, with 3 x 32MB (the > cheap bastards), 5 x 8MB, no disk, drive sled, 100BaseTX/Wide SCSI > and a dead PSU. Obviously, I paid too much, but I did get a couple of > $10 DIMMs, a sled, a 100BaseTX card, and a spare motherboard for my > troubles. I would not pay anywhere near half that for sun4c hardware. > > -ethan Okay, I'll explain that to the present owner. I looked at e-greed and they were commanding <$10. This one may have another frame buffer card, as there are two of those 13W3 connectors on the back. Gary HIldebrand St. Joseph, MO From red at bears.org Sat Oct 12 12:05:01 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: SunOS 4.1.4 Domestic Kit In-Reply-To: <200210120400.XAA03973@trdlnk.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, alex wrote: > SunPC 4.2, I have a SunPC card for my SPARC 5 running Solaris 2.6, but I have > been looking high and low for the drivers... Can't seem to find them anywhere. > > FastEthernet 1.0, I have a BigMac (be) based SBus card for my SunOS 4.1.4 box > and these drivers seem to be hard to find also. With the software CD there are > drivers for SunOS 4.x and I am looking for these. I'm looking for SunPC 3.x and FastEthernet 1.0 as well as the software for SunFDDI/DX (the VME FDDI card). Just so y'all know. (; Alex, if I come up with anything, you'll be the first guy I contact. ok r. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 12 12:32:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <20021012154447.2262.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: >--- John Ruschmeyer wrote: >> > Well, that got me closer to home. It is an IPC and looks like it isn't >> > really worth the time and effort. Just wonering how well they run >> > Linux with X. >> >> On a Sun4c system like the IPC, the canonical wisdom is to avoid Linux >> because of performance issues related to problems in the memory >> management code. The better bet is NetBSD (go with 1.5.3) or OpenBSD. > >Agreed. Linux on sun4c is a *dog* (I tried to install Suse on a 1+) >On a 32MB machine, Solaris 2.5.1 runs faster. OpenBSD is likely to be a good choice. I've got a SparcBook 3GS that I accidentally trashed the Solaris install on (of course I don't have a copy of Tadpole's Solaris 2.5.1). I couldn't believe how snappy OpenBSD fells on it! >accelerated) are inexpensive to free. They are both 8-bit. You >probably don't want to deal with 24-bit graphics on hardware that old. >It's slow as molasses in January, but it does exist. If you want 24-Bit graphics, connecting over the net might be the best answer. That's how I get it for my Sparc 20 and VMS systems. >If the IPC was free and you had a burning desire to play with a SPARC, >by all means go for it. For people who want to learn Solaris (friends >who are looking to enhance their career opportunities), I'm recommending >OT hardware - SPARC5, Ultra 1/170e, etc. To put prices into perspective, Personally I only recommend Sparc 5's for OpenBSD (they're single processor systems and OpenBSD will only run on single processor Sparc's). For Solaris I'd recommend Sparc 10's and 20's as it's getting to where they're almost free, or if you either get lucky or are willing to spend a little go for an Ultra 1, 2 or 5. If you get an Ultra 1, try and get one of the E's. Now all this talk of Sparc's reminds me of what I was meaning to work on this morning... Building the second Sparc 20/712 I just finished collecting the parts for :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ken at seefried.com Sat Oct 12 12:59:01 2002 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <20021012030101.98859.49253.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021012030101.98859.49253.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20021012192933.10469.qmail@mail.seefried.com> My most favorite was the AT&T 5620 with a host running layers. Even without layers, the 800x1024 page-sized screen was nice. Second would be a Tek 4207...fun graphics. Favorite "normal" terminal would be an amber phospor VT420. Ken From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Oct 12 14:24:00 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <20021012042015.7763.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200210121900.g9CJ0XI13210@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 11 Oct, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Sun 4c, runs Linux, SunOS, Solaris (poorly) - NetBSD and OpenBSD. I run NetBSD in the 1.3 / 1.4 days on a 64 MB SS1+ with the double slot CGSIX. Nice machine. The case design is IMHO the nicest I have seen up to this time. (And I have lots of old *ix workstations.) As already stated Linux does not run well on sun4c machines due to MMU issues. > 12MHz? SS1 = 20 MHz SS1+ = 25 MHz SS2 = 40MHz IPC = 25 MHz, on board mono FB IPX = 40MHz, CGSIX on board 8 bit color FB The slowest SPARC was the 4/110 with 14.28 MHz. > original SPARC processor. SPARC V7. The first SPARC version that Sun used in products. AFAIK there where some academical predecessors. > Uses 30 pin parity memory. May not like 3 chip PC SIMMs. May depend on the SIMMs / RAM chips and the refresh cycles they need. My SS1+ was happy with 3 chip SIMMs. > Prefers 9 chip SIMMs. Can take 1MB, probably takes 4MB (mine did). All SPARCstations should be able to take 4 MB SIMMs as the SS1 can take them. (According to the sun.hardware.FAQ file.) > If you have any router or system logs with the > old MAC address, you can copy it to a new chip. I prefere to do some surgery to attach a new battery. Much cheaper. (And I get more geek points for it. ;-) ) -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Oct 12 14:24:31 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011170740.03a5cd50@3am-software.com> Message-ID: <200210121854.g9CIsjI13193@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 11 Oct, Matt Thomas wrote: > At 04:19 PM 10/11/2002, vance@neurotica.com wrote: >>I wonder why the DEFZA isn't supported yet? > Because no one has had enough interest to do it yet. I have a DEFZA and interrest but no doc. > The DEFZA requires a new driver. I know that you are the author of the *BSD DEF[TPE]A driver. It seams you know the DEFZA hardware closer too? How hard would it be to write a NetBSD driver for the DEFZA? (I am an experienced Unix user, medium C coder and have already done some NetBSD kernel hacking. Namely a RX02 driver.) > The DEFQA can reuse > the existing PDQ framework for DEF[TPE]A. That was my thought when I had a quick glance at the DEF[TPE]A driver due to an other issue. (See my mail on port PPC at NetBSD...) -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 12 15:26:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> <3DA849F8.3E846E4C@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3DA88650.6080402@tiac.net> I donated mine to Tom Uban, who used to work for BBN as I recall. The biggest problem with the BitGraph was that is is simply HUGE. Not so large as a VT-52, but close! emanuel stiebler wrote: >Bob Shannon wrote: > >>How about the BBN BitGraph? >> >>VT-100, with a 'real' VT-100 keyboard, and Tektronics emulation, all >>done on a 68000 >>CPU. >> > >Now we're talking ! >And where to get such a beast ? > >cheers > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021012/ca42ed7e/attachment.html From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 12 15:34:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <20021012030101.98859.49253.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021012192933.10469.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <3DA8881E.6040903@tiac.net> Hmmm, is an Imlac PDS-1 a terminal, or a system? I tend to think of it as 'the first' intellegent terminal, as it runs code locally, but did not (normally) have a stand-alone OS or mass storage. They were clearly intended to be hung off of another system like a mini or mainframe. And what other terminals came with a real front pannel? This has got to have the highest geek-attractor-factor of any 'terminal' ever made! From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sat Oct 12 15:38:00 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: latest find... Message-ID: <01f901c2722f$77451280$7800a8c0@george> A Mattel Aquarius. It's not something that I would have normally picked up, but it seemed to be reasonalbly complete, CPU, mini expander, printer, tape deck, RAM cart, and a half-dozen carts. Most in original boxes, if not packing. After reading all the "coming soon"'s and "under development"'s, all I'm really missing is a few carts and the 16K RAM cart (the one I've got is 4K). Alas, the thrift store I found it at has succumbed to the parts-are-worth-more-than-the-whole, and each piece was priced seperately. I haven't added up the total yet. :/ Bob From emu at ecubics.com Sat Oct 12 15:39:00 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: BBN BitGraph, was Re: Favorite terminal References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> <3DA849F8.3E846E4C@ecubics.com> <3DA88650.6080402@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3DA88900.33D70773@ecubics.com> So, is there any information on the net about this thing ? Manual ? ... cheers Bob Shannon wrote: > > I donated mine to Tom Uban, who used to work for BBN as I recall. > > The biggest problem with the BitGraph was that is is simply HUGE. Not > so large as a VT-52, but > close! > > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > Bob Shannon wrote: > > > >> How about the BBN BitGraph? > >> VT-100, with a 'real' VT-100 keyboard, and Tektronics emulation, > >> all > >> done on a 68000 > >> CPU. > >> > > Now we're talking ! > > And where to get such a beast ? > > > > cheers > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 12 16:49:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Sun clones, was Re: Sun Sparc ID References: Message-ID: <3DA899C5.7030400@tiac.net> I see people on the list understand these little pizza-box machines. I'll have to confess to total ignorance of the Sun workstations (having been a Domain OS user), but while removing some test equipment that had been left behind when a large company moved, I grabbed the following Sun clones: (they need homes, as the space they are taking up is worth more to me than they are...) Axil 311, loaded. TI SuperSPARC TMS390 CPU, one ST31200N HDD with 2 drive sleds, floppy, 8 slots for 168(?) pin simms, 7 simms installed. S-bus cards include an Antares Microsystems SCSI/TWP Ethernet II board, an Aurora Technologies 400S multi-port serial I/O, and a color video board with LSI Logic SPARC SGX video chip. Axil 320, no so loaded, but interesting. TI SuperSPARC TMS390 CPU with TMS390 cache controller, one ST32171N HDD with 2 drive sleds, floppy, 8 slots for 168(?) pin simms with 2 SEC KMM3144C400BS-6ES simms installed. S-bus cards include Antares Microsystems 10base-T Ethernet, and an Axil Workstations color video board with a SunGX video chip. The motherboard on the 320 is interesting, the simm slots have extensions for even wider simm modules. There are four of these extensions but only 2 are populated with contacts, each adding 36 contacts to the simm slot. I've never seen a simm like this. The simm modules installed do not use these extended contacts. The motherboard has a sticker reading 705-0004-01 rev-50 320 W/64MB. There is also a very large QFP chip marked Axil Computer with the number 100-0188-01 just behind the CPU daughterboard. This differs from the 311 which uses a LSI L64860HC-40 SPARC EMC device in a ceramic BGA package in the same location. The 311 also lacks the simm socket extensions although the silk screen and PCB are designed to accomodate them. I ~beleive~ I also have a single keyboard, mouse and color video cable. No monitors. I'm not really sure these are quite old-enough to be on topic, but after reading that people on the list were missing power supplies, drives, sleds, and video boards, I thought I should offer these up as parts machines if nothing else. These Axil machines sure appear to be mechanically identical to real Sun pizza boxes, and I suspect that all the parts are fully interchangable with the real McCoy. The power supplies do say Axil computer, but they are off-shore imports so they are probably fully compatible 'clones', but I'm guessing here. I dunno what they are, but I know they are in the way! From fauradon at frontiernet.net Sat Oct 12 17:20:01 2002 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: IN STYLE... THE SEX TRACKER! References: Message-ID: <001601c2724e$4b663440$0264640a@auradon.com> > I went into an ice cream shop in Mexico and one of the flavors was > "Viagra". I bought a cup but it didn't do anything. Well you know: it doesn't always work. Hopefully you can find contentment with something else :) From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 12 17:53:00 2002 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal At&t/WE Blit References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> <3DA849F8.3E846E4C@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <001301c27242$5e66d240$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I'd love to have one, never seen a live one - but it was one of the experimental 68k based terms brought to you by the makers of Unix(tm) ;) My fave terminal that I actually own is a working VT05 (looks like a stingray) - a picture of a VT05can be seen on some pdp11 handbooks, with the funky 60's pedestal and matching chairs and DecBabes.. The V05 predates even the VT52 abd VT100's, not much in the way of control sequences - but hey it's got a 20mA loop and a termcap for unix/linux ;) Heinz > Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > How about the BBN BitGraph? > > > > VT-100, with a 'real' VT-100 keyboard, and Tektronics emulation, all > > done on a 68000 > > CPU. > > Now we're talking ! > And where to get such a beast ? > > cheers From fauradon at frontiernet.net Sat Oct 12 18:11:00 2002 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: latest find... References: <01f901c2722f$77451280$7800a8c0@george> Message-ID: <000401c27254$0dec3b40$0264640a@auradon.com> Oh yeah? Well I found today a Dark Tower game almost complete and in working order. Only missing the four figurines and a few buildings. The Tower is in working order after cleaning up all the contacts and the brushes of the motor. Cool find for GW. Oh and only $5 Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert F. Schaefer" To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: latest find... > A Mattel Aquarius. It's not something that I would have normally picked up, > but it seemed to be reasonalbly complete, CPU, mini expander, printer, tape > deck, RAM cart, and a half-dozen carts. Most in original boxes, if not > packing. After reading all the "coming soon"'s and "under development"'s, > all I'm really missing is a few carts and the 16K RAM cart (the one I've got > is 4K). Alas, the thrift store I found it at has succumbed to the > parts-are-worth-more-than-the-whole, and each piece was priced seperately. > I haven't added up the total yet. :/ > > Bob > > > From SecretaryBird at SoftHome.net Sat Oct 12 18:18:01 2002 From: SecretaryBird at SoftHome.net (Otter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: My First S-100 System In-Reply-To: References: <3DA782E8.10643.56B57D6@localhost> Message-ID: <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> On 12 Oct 2002 at 6:24, Sellam Ismail wrote: From: Sellam Ismail To: Subject: Re: My First S-100 System Send reply to: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date sent: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 06:24:58 -0700 (PDT) [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Otter wrote: > I'm also wondering if this little honey could be used as a console > for the Cromemco system... > > http://www.oz.net/~otter/gallery/Geek-Console.JPG That's most likely an IBM System/23 (or a 51x0?) I'm not terribly familiar with them beyond recognizing their shape. But anyway, I'm sure you could use it as a terminal IF it has an RS-232 port and IF you can either get or write some terminal software for it. Which goes for just about any PC in existence. I was finally able to get a good look at the back. It is an IBM 5120. There's four ports on the back; 2 DB-25 female, 1 female port that looks like an AUI port, and a BNC connector. I just did a lengthy search via Google, and so far have been able to find any actual specs on this beast. But I'm guessing that one of the DB-25 ports is RS-232, and the other is probably a parallel port of some sort. I have no idea about the AUI port (if that is indeed what it is). The BNC connector is most likely a network interface (best guess is either 3270 or Token Ring). Either way would be no problem. If it is 3270, I can probably connect it to one of my PCs (either one of my Win-98 systems or one of my Linux girls) equipped with an Attachmate 3270 card. Been looking for a reason to finally try out those cards anyway. If it is Token Ring, then I can get my PS/2 Model 25 up and running and put in the MCA Token Link card I have around here somewhere and hook her up to that. I'm hoping it is 3270 though. As that will make software transfers for the 5120 a simple matter. If it is Token Ring, I will need to get ahold of an MCA ethernet adapter so the PS/2 can serve as a bridge between the 5120 and the LAN. So, the 5120, if my guesses are correct about the ports, will serve fine as a control console for the Cromemco System Two. Of course, I do eventually want to get an actual Cromemco terminal for it; preferably the Cromemco 3102, as I want her external devices to be all matching Cromemco branded items. > As for the System Three; we haven't decided what to do with it yet. > It doesn't have enough stuff with it to make it worth the hassles of > auctioning (plus, without having an operational car at the moment, > shipping would be an enormous logistical challenge.) If someone can You may have a full card set for it in all the S-100 boards you took from the pile. What cards did you get? Most of the cards were missing all of their socketed chips, and due to the afore-mentioned need of cash, I put them up on eBay yesterday. Here's a list of the cards that went up: Lot #1 - 4 Cards Cromemco 16FDC floppy disk controller card (Chips Intact) Ithaca Audio CPU card Character Generator card (J3674-01) card labelled Discreet Plot - (J3893-01) Lot #2 - 3 Cards Cromemco 16FDC floppy disk controller card unidentified card (looks like it could be a RAM card card labelled 2SIO There was also a single card I put up that I couldn't identify. Here's a picture of it: http://www.oz.net/~otter/ebay/ebb-s100-mystery-card-0.JPG Since the majority of the cards are missing their chips, I figured I'd go ahead and get rid of them and when I can afford to start collecting the higher end stuff one of these days, I would reacquire them then, only fully functional. Apparently someone thinks he will be able to do something with some of them, as the 3-Pack does have its opening $15 bid on it. :) -- Scarletdown (Certified Geek-bird) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 12 18:19:01 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <20021012050831.9313.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> from "Loboyko Steve" at Oct 11, 2 10:08:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 774 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021012/5d31d8a6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 12 18:20:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <000901c271d6$01785ac0$5b4a3dcf@msed03> from "M H Stein" at Oct 12, 2 05:58:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 524 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021012/12a7877b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 12 18:20:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA8881E.6040903@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Oct 12, 2 04:37:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 429 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021012/b16d69b1/attachment.ksh From mbg at TheWorld.com Sat Oct 12 18:31:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: It pays to clean up... Message-ID: <200210122333.TAA62935811@shell.TheWorld.com> In cleaning out some closets (moving my collection to storage in order to prepare a condo for sale), I came across a bunch of things I had forgotten I had... A couple of RK05 drives An RK02 (diablo) drive backplane and front panel for 11/34 a couple of BA11-M boxes a couple of BA11-VA boxes my original spacewar control boxes (wired up to a DR11-C) which we used on a GT42 at WPI back in 1978 some MM11-DP core memory a battery backup unit (I think it said H755 or H775) a large cache of blank DEC 8" floppies, in the blue DEC floppy boxes. a couple of boxes of dual-high foundation cards for wiring your own devices, at least one specific unibus foundation module. and I can't remember all the rest... wheee... Megan From mbg at TheWorld.com Sat Oct 12 18:34:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal Message-ID: <200210122336.TAA65858204@shell.TheWorld.com> >DEC GT40. That's a PDP11/05 (with real core memory) and a VT11 vector >display board set in a desktop case with a monitor on top and a separate >keyboard). 3 user input devices -- the keyboard, a light pen and the >lights-n-switches panel. I wish I had one... I'm trying to get the hardware I need to at least put a VT11 on an 11/05 or 11/34a so I can get spacewar running... As I mentioned in a prior post, I found the DR11C which has the original spacewar control boxes we used at WPI back in the later 70s. I also found the source for the spacewar we played -- written by a friend of mine who was also a student at WPI... Megan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 12 19:23:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > There have been complaints made about my spending time in my Operating > > Systems class teaching the history! ("I don't want to hear about Gary > > Kildall; I just want to know what to click on!") On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > You should take the mouse away from people who complain like that. I gave them two large files and told them to determine whether they matched. I even gave them the major hint that "FC" wasn't necessarily my initials. I doubt that the mouse-clickers are done yet. Any other good examples of stuff that is trivial to do at the prompt, but difficult to do "on the desktop"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From red at bears.org Sat Oct 12 20:06:00 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Any other good examples of stuff that is trivial to do at the prompt, but > difficult to do "on the desktop"? Ooooh, hate to tell you this, Fred, but it totally depends on the tools you have. I offer the following evidence in counter to your example: http://www.bears.org/~red/nowhere/FileMerge.app.tiff ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 12 20:56:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA8881E.6040903@tiac.net> References: <20021012030101.98859.49253.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021012192933.10469.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <3DA8881E.6040903@tiac.net> Message-ID: <2639.4.20.168.134.1034474279.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Bob Shannon wrote about the Imlac: > And what other terminals came with a real front pannel? This has got to > have the highest geek-attractor-factor of any 'terminal' ever made! DEC GT40, ca. 1972: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ I suspect that the Imlac was directly responsible for inspiring DEC to produce the GT40. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 12 21:00:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Any other good examples of stuff that is trivial to do at the prompt, but > > difficult to do "on the desktop"? On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > Ooooh, hate to tell you this, Fred, but it totally depends on the tools > you have. > I offer the following evidence in counter to your example: > http://www.bears.org/~red/nowhere/FileMerge.app.tiff I NEVER said that there weren't third party products available. I ALSO NEVER said that there weren't also tasks that were more suited to the "desktop" than to the CLI. Those are obvious. The query was for which tasks would be good examples to show that the CLI was still needed, or at least still useful, when running Windoze. Does that program compare two files? The parts of it that were successful in loading made no mention of file compare. (It reported an "internal error") File compare was merely an example that the "desktop" in MICROS~1 OS's does NOT provide all and every capability that had previously been provided in the CLI. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 12 21:05:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: NOTE: I am NOT implying that it isn't POSSIBLE to have a "desktop" with full functionality, merely that with WINDOZE it is sometimes useful or necessary to use the command line. From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 12 21:31:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: latest find... In-Reply-To: <01f901c2722f$77451280$7800a8c0@george> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Robert F. Schaefer wrote: > A Mattel Aquarius. It's not something that I would have normally picked > up, but it seemed to be reasonalbly complete, CPU, mini expander, > printer, tape deck, RAM cart, and a half-dozen carts. Most in original > boxes, if not packing. After reading all the "coming soon"'s and "under > development"'s, all I'm really missing is a few carts and the 16K RAM > cart (the one I've got is 4K). Alas, the thrift store I found it at has > succumbed to the parts-are-worth-more-than-the-whole, and each piece was > priced seperately. I haven't added up the total yet. :/ That's an incredibly nice setup. It entails everything I had at the time I sold my Aquarius to fund the purchase of my first Apple ][+. A lot of the stuff that Aquarius promised never came out. However, I did just buy a modem off of eBay. And I missed (by a couple hundred dollars) an incredible auction that include the ultra-mega-rare Aquarius disk drive (3" mechanism) and 4-color printer. If I had more money I would have bid more (it ended up being something like US$350). There are only two Aquarius disk drives that I know to exist. I do have the even rarer Aquarius II, but I really want the disk drive (and I know a certain someone on this list who has the 4-color printer ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sat Oct 12 21:33:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: IN STYLE... THE SEX TRACKER! In-Reply-To: <001601c2724e$4b663440$0264640a@auradon.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Sue & Francois wrote: > > I went into an ice cream shop in Mexico and one of the flavors was > > "Viagra". I bought a cup but it didn't do anything. > > Well you know: it doesn't always work. Hopefully you can find contentment > with something else :) It was probably better that it didn't work because I wouldn't have been able to do anything with my new found virility right about then as I was about to board a ferry for Cozumel ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 12 21:36:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 (was Re: My First S-100 System) In-Reply-To: <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> References: <3DA782E8.10643.56B57D6@localhost> <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> Message-ID: <1820.4.20.168.134.1034476672.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> "Otter" wrote: > I was finally able to get a good look at the back. It is an IBM > 5120. There's four ports on the back; 2 DB-25 female, 1 female port > that looks like an AUI port, and a BNC connector. I just did a > lengthy search via Google, and so far have been able to find any > actual specs on this beast. But I'm guessing that one of the DB-25 > ports is RS-232, and the other is probably a parallel port of some > sort. No, the 5120 doesn't have parallel ports. They would both be serial, although it's quite possible that one is synchronous. > So, the 5120, if my guesses are correct about the ports, will serve > fine as a control console for the Cromemco System Two. The 5120 is an interesting machine, and I very much want one; it's a 5110 repackaged into the all-in-one unit, and depending on the model has BASIC, APL, or both in ROM. The 5110/5120 is a somewhat improved version of the 5100, with better language interpreters and more I/O capabilities. But it would make an absolutely *terrible* terminal. It only has 16*64 video, and unless you got the terminal software with it, you'll have to write your own. In BASIC or APL, depending on which model you have. I seriously doubt that it can keep up at 9600 bps or faster; as a terminal they were normally only used for dialup at 300 bps or slower. It's full of proprietary IBM chips, including the processor, so it's all but impossible to run anything but the standard BASIC and APL interpreters on it. In principle it is possible to load machine code from disk (there's some on the diagnostics disk), but it's not documented so very little assembly code was every written for it by anyone outside IBM. From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Oct 12 21:37:00 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal At&t/WE Blit In-Reply-To: <001301c27242$5e66d240$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Heinz Wolter wrote: > I'd love to have one, never seen a live one - but > it was one of the experimental 68k based terms > brought to you by the makers of Unix(tm) ;) I think it uses a Ma Bell CPU, not a 68K... > > My fave terminal that I actually own is a working > VT05 (looks like a stingray) - a picture of a VT05can > be seen on some pdp11 handbooks, with the funky 60's > pedestal and matching chairs and DecBabes.. The V05 > predates even the VT52 abd VT100's, not much in the > way of control sequences - but hey it's got a 20mA loop > and a termcap for unix/linux ;) > > Heinz > > > > Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > > How about the BBN BitGraph? > > > > > > VT-100, with a 'real' VT-100 keyboard, and Tektronics emulation, all > > > done on a 68000 > > > CPU. > > > > Now we're talking ! > > And where to get such a beast ? > > > > cheers > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 12 21:40:01 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: References: <000901c271d6$01785ac0$5b4a3dcf@msed03> from "M H Stein" at Oct 12, 2 05:58:57 am Message-ID: <3694.4.20.168.134.1034476920.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > However, Tektronix told me that the life of the instrument ended some > years after the unit was discontinued (I think n was either 5 or > 10), which means you are not going to get a new transformer for your > 500 series now :-(. At least they didn't tell you that the life of the instrument ended when the transformer failed. In 1982 or so I tried to return some failed Verbatim Datalife 5.25-inch single-sided floppy disks which had a "lifetime warranty". Verbatim told me that if the disk wasn't working, it's lifetime had expired. I never bought another Verbatim product. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sat Oct 12 21:47:00 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes References: <000901c271d6$01785ac0$5b4a3dcf@msed03> from "M H Stein" at Oct 12, 2 05:58:57 am <3694.4.20.168.134.1034476920.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <042601c27263$10604ab0$7800a8c0@george> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 10:42 PM Subject: Re: Vintage Scopes > > At least they didn't tell you that the life of the instrument ended > when the transformer failed. In 1982 or so I tried to return > some failed Verbatim Datalife 5.25-inch single-sided floppy disks which > had a "lifetime warranty". Verbatim told me that if the disk wasn't > working, it's lifetime had expired. I never bought another Verbatim > product. ROFLMAO. I've heard that punchline before, but I think this is the first time I've ever heard of it being used In Real Life. Maybe you paraphrased them? :) > > Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 12 21:55:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 (was Re: My First S-100 System) In-Reply-To: <1820.4.20.168.134.1034476672.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <3DA782E8.10643.56B57D6@localhost> <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> <1820.4.20.168.134.1034476672.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1033.4.20.168.134.1034477821.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote about the idea "Otter" had of using an IBM 5120 as a terminal: > But it would make an absolutely *terrible* terminal. It only has 16*64 > video, and unless you got the terminal software with it, you'll have to > write your own. In BASIC or APL, depending on which model you have. I > seriously doubt that it can keep up at 9600 bps or faster; as a > terminal they were normally only used for dialup at 300 bps or slower. And I forgot to mention the main reason that it makes an awful terminal: it uses three different character sets internally, NONE of which is even similar to ASCII (or even EBCDIC). Of course, a terminal program could translate the character codes for the matching characters, but just like the ASCII-EBCDIC translation problem, there are some printing characters and many control characters that have no equivalents. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 12 21:59:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <042601c27263$10604ab0$7800a8c0@george> References: <000901c271d6$01785ac0$5b4a3dcf@msed03> <3694.4.20.168.134.1034476920.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <042601c27263$10604ab0$7800a8c0@george> Message-ID: <2228.4.20.168.134.1034478049.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> "Robert F. Schaefer" wrote: > ROFLMAO. I've heard that punchline before, but I think this is the > first time I've ever heard of it being used In Real Life. Maybe you > paraphrased them? :) I don't recall their exact wording, but they weren't trying to be the least bit subtle about it. They had no intention of honoring their warranty, and this was how they weaseled out of it. For some years I had good luck with Dysan diskettes, which were quite good. Then Dysan was acquired by another company, and the quality went seriously downhill. From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Oct 12 22:14:00 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <2228.4.20.168.134.1034478049.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Two things: Dysan disks, while reliable, were considered incredibly abrasive. There was an independant study done by a drive manufacturer, Qume, IIRC, that strongly recommended not using Dysan. Verbatim diskettes were only used when you wanted to be sure no one, including yourself, would ever read the media again. Verbatim became better many years later, but they were left with a major stigma. Maxell was my personal media of choice. I used Maxell 8's, 5.25's, 3.5's, cassette, reel to reel, 4mm, 8mm, and on a few rare occasions, 9 track. I've had far fewer problems with Maxell media than anything I've ever used. --John -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 23:01 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Vintage Scopes "Robert F. Schaefer" wrote: > ROFLMAO. I've heard that punchline before, but I think this is the > first time I've ever heard of it being used In Real Life. Maybe you > paraphrased them? :) I don't recall their exact wording, but they weren't trying to be the least bit subtle about it. They had no intention of honoring their warranty, and this was how they weaseled out of it. For some years I had good luck with Dysan diskettes, which were quite good. Then Dysan was acquired by another company, and the quality went seriously downhill. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 12 22:17:00 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In 1972? I got a military surplus Tektronix scope. I think that the model > number was 512. The oldest Tek I ever owned was a real oddball called a 514AD. I sold it to a Tek collector. It was clearly an mid or early 50s type. Regarding military scopes - BE CAREFUL. First, a new hamfest find may look like a Tektronix, but it actally may be a Lavoie. These scope SUCK in a big way - unstable, unreliable copies. The best way to make sure of the make is to see if it actually says "Tektronix" on it or if it has Tek's manuafacturers code (a five digit number or four letter contractor code I do not have handy). I think Hickock made some bad copies as well. Also, many scopes made for the military (most are AN/USM-somethings) look like civilian models, but often have something deleted from the design. Most of the time this is not a big deal, but if you have a choice of the military or the civilian models, ditch the one in uniform. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From SecretaryBird at SoftHome.net Sat Oct 12 22:25:01 2002 From: SecretaryBird at SoftHome.net (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5120 (was Re: My First S-100 System) In-Reply-To: <1033.4.20.168.134.1034477821.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <1820.4.20.168.134.1034476672.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3DA884F1.11929.95B71CE@localhost> On 12 Oct 2002 at 19:57, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote about the idea "Otter" had > of using an IBM 5120 as a terminal: > > But it would make an absolutely *terrible* terminal. It only has > > 16*64 video, and unless you got the terminal software with it, > > you'll have to write your own. In BASIC or APL, depending on which > > model you have. I seriously doubt that it can keep up at 9600 bps or > > faster; as a terminal they were normally only used for dialup at 300 > > bps or slower. > > And I forgot to mention the main reason that it makes an awful > terminal: it uses three different character sets internally, NONE of > which is even similar to ASCII (or even EBCDIC). > > Of course, a terminal program could translate the character codes for > the matching characters, but just like the ASCII-EBCDIC translation > problem, there are some printing characters and many control > characters that have no equivalents. Thanks for the heads-up. The 5120 is hereby vetoed as a candidate for the Cromemco terminal. :) I still plan on getting her connected to my network somehow...eventually...one of these days. One of our Kaypro II systems may serve as the Cromemco's console instead. Or, even though it may cause a loss of geek points; I might just build a very minimalist 386 or 486 system from spare parts I have lying about here, set it up with FreeDOS or MINIX, and make that the console. Either of these possibilities would still be only temporary, and would eventually be replaced with a genuine Cromemco Smart Terminal. :) -- Scarletdown From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 12 22:26:00 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: <20021010100444.A25814@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: > No, those units were the Fuzzballs. (I think the hardware name > inspired the softtware.) Amonst my junk is a PDP-11/23 with an MS connector on the back prominently labeled "IMP". Inside is a special 2 board cardset that acts as the network interface - a 2901 based thing, probably more powerful than the PDP-11. I would like to find out more information on this cardset - it is not from DEC and is probably a low run custom job by some long gone shop. Sorry, that is just about all I know about it. One of the more interesting things about the PDP-11/23 is that it was never used. The little bags of parts and things are still wrapped onto the chassis, as they were the day they left the factory. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 12 22:38:00 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So, the IMPs they built would be the first network interface, right? The > precurser to the present-day NIC. Nahhh...evrybody knows that the first real network was Ma Bell... > I wonder if any of those are still > around... Or if they're even used once in a while... Until quite recently, the oldest parts of the Internet were some NSFnet (ANS) era links. These are now gone. The old APRAnet (where IMPs lived) links died years ago. There are some private WANs that (at least fairly recently) use very old technology. One of the sites I frequented (3 or 4 years ago) had a bunch of blinkenlight HP minis used as NICs. Another used IBM S/1s. I never found out who these machines belonged to. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vaxzilla at jarai.org Sat Oct 12 23:41:00 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: VAX 6000 XMI-2 bus questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is it possible to run older the older 6000-200/300/400 (5V) XMI bus processors in an XMI-2 bus system? Normally one would have 6000-500/600 (3.3V) CPUs in this backplane, but I'm under the impression that you can still use other 5V XMI modules. I was wondering if this also holds true for trying to use the older 5V CPUs. Obviously this would be less desirable from a performance and possibly a power consumption standpoint; I'm just curious to know if it's possible. -brian. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 23:54:00 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021013045546.19079.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> I second the Maxell comments. Their cassette mechanisms were, and are, superior, and the media itself would _clearly_ outlast anything else I've ever used (disks and casettes). Even their 3.5" media was very good mechanically. I routinely listen to 20 year old Maxell tapes I havent burned CD's of yet. Definitely worth the slight extra cost. --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > Two things: Dysan disks, while reliable, were > considered incredibly > abrasive. There was an independant study done by a > drive manufacturer, > Qume, IIRC, that strongly recommended not using > Dysan. Verbatim diskettes > were only used when you wanted to be sure no one, > including yourself, would > ever read the media again. Verbatim became better > many years later, but > they were left with a major stigma. > > Maxell was my personal media of choice. I used > Maxell 8's, 5.25's, 3.5's, > cassette, reel to reel, 4mm, 8mm, and on a few rare > occasions, 9 track. > I've had far fewer problems with Maxell media than > anything I've ever used. > > --John > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On > Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 23:01 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Vintage Scopes > > > "Robert F. Schaefer" wrote: > > ROFLMAO. I've heard that punchline before, but I > think this is the > > first time I've ever heard of it being used In > Real Life. Maybe you > > paraphrased them? :) > > I don't recall their exact wording, but they weren't > trying to be the > least bit subtle about it. They had no intention of > honoring their > warranty, and this was how they weaseled out of it. > > For some years I had good luck with Dysan diskettes, > which were quite > good. Then Dysan was acquired by another company, > and the quality > went seriously downhill. > > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From red at bears.org Sun Oct 13 00:05:00 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I NEVER said that there weren't third party products available. Hang on, it wasn't my intention to get your dander up. > I ALSO NEVER said that there weren't also tasks that were more suited to > the "desktop" than to the CLI. Those are obvious. The query was for > which tasks would be good examples to show that the CLI was still needed, > or at least still useful, when running Windoze. The problem with that, IMO, is that none of the tools that ship with Windows, CLI or otherwise, are particularly robust, or even suited to any but the simplest of the most basic tasks. In the general case I think the point that is more useful to illustrate is "use the appropriate tool for the job". Using two "notepad" windows side by side is clearly NOT the appropriate tool to compare two files. "comp" may not be it, either, depending on the nature of the differences and how you intend to utilize the information about those differences, but still it's a lot better suited than the former example. Microsoft may even provide a graphical version of 'diff' as a part of Visual Studio. The last time I used MSVC, I was not what you might call a "sophisticated user", though, so I'm not sure about that. > Does that program compare two files? > The parts of it that were successful in loading made no mention of file > compare. (It reported an "internal error") You lost me. Which program? FileMerge is an app that ships with the developer option for NEXTSTEP and provides a combination of functionality offered by the standard UNIX utilities 'diff' and 'patch'. I hope you weren't trying to execute the .tiff screen capture that the URL pointed to, as an application binary... > File compare was merely an example that the "desktop" in MICROS~1 OS's > does NOT provide all and every capability that had previously been > provided in the CLI. I don't think anybody would argue that it does. Clearly the CLI doesn't provide all the capabilities offered by the GUI either, but I know you weren't saying that. I mean, Photoshop on the Mac supports multiprocessor systems, even though MacOS 9 doesn't. Clearly it would've been easier on Adobe if it had, but that feature is present in Photoshop just the same. It's all about the tools! ok r. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 13 00:12:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: My First S-100 System In-Reply-To: <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Otter wrote: > Most of the cards were missing all of their socketed chips, and due to > the afore-mentioned need of cash, I put them up on eBay yesterday. > Since the majority of the cards are missing their chips, I figured I'd > go ahead and get rid of them and when I can afford to start collecting > the higher end stuff one of these days, I would reacquire them then, > only fully functional. Apparently someone thinks he will be able to do > something with some of them, as the 3-Pack does have its opening $15 bid > on it. :) Too bad they are already up on eBay, because you'd likely be able to find someone here that would have a listing of which chips each card needs. Most of the chips would be easy to obtain, and replacing those missing chips should be far less expensive than buying functional cards. Whoever buys your cards on eBay knows they are getting a steal... -Toth From claudew at videotron.ca Sun Oct 13 00:13:00 2002 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:56 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? Message-ID: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> Hi Sorry, I know this is quite off topic but I know a lotta people here accumulate tons of stuff with time (like me) and there is a good chance some will have this... Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo 2k refresh 168pins... Will trade for vintage/semi-recent/recent stuff - I have tons : networking, DEC, Sun, SGI, Apple, 8-16 bit hobby micros etc... - Ask Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 13 00:23:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? In-Reply-To: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo > 2k refresh 168pins... I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but older Apple systems don't take DIMMs, or even SIMMs. :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 13 00:43:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? In-Reply-To: <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: >> Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo >> 2k refresh 168pins... > >I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but older Apple systems don't >take DIMMs, or even SIMMs. :-) It also might be a good idea to note which Apple system you're looking for this memory for. Some of them use 168-pin DIMM's that are 5V. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From claudew at videotron.ca Sun Oct 13 00:47:00 2002 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <013201c2727c$b561ec80$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? > > Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo > > 2k refresh 168pins... > > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but older Apple systems don't > take DIMMs, or even SIMMs. :-) I know... But the system in question is not quite "that old".... Maybe I should of said "Apple MAC sytstem"...or "older MAC".... Anyways....what I wrote is exactly what I am looking for.... Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Oct 13 02:44:00 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal At&t/WE Blit In-Reply-To: <001301c27242$5e66d240$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> <3DA849F8.3E846E4C@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021013174312.02617598@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 06:54 PM 12/10/2002 -0400, Heinz Wolter wrote: >My fave terminal that I actually own is a working >VT05 (looks like a stingray) - a picture of a VT05can >be seen on some pdp11 handbooks, with the funky 60's >pedestal and matching chairs and DecBabes.. The V05 >predates even the VT52 abd VT100's, not much in the >way of control sequences - but hey it's got a 20mA loop >and a termcap for unix/linux ;) I wish I had a VT05 - I spent a lot of time programming on a DECsystem-10 with it. In fact we hacked a copy of VTEDIT to automatically save files you were editing every 5 minutes as at one stage we had a slightly unreliable version of the monitor installed. The only problem with a VT05 is that it is an upper/lower case terminal with uppercase only display. This lead to interesting problems with earlier versions of tops-10 which didn't understand lower case versions of commands: .dir ?dir? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 13 03:36:00 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? In-Reply-To: <013201c2727c$b561ec80$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021013013926.00ab3360@mail.zipcon.net> Which PowerMac is it? I thought they all could use FPM..... At 01:52 AM 10/13/02 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Eric Smith" >To: >Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 1:24 AM >Subject: Re: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - >anyone? > > > > > Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo > > > 2k refresh 168pins... > > > > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but older Apple systems don't > > take DIMMs, or even SIMMs. :-) > >I know... > >But the system in question is not quite "that old".... >Maybe I should of said "Apple MAC sytstem"...or "older MAC".... >Anyways....what I wrote is exactly what I am looking for.... > >Thanks >Claude >http://computer_collector.tripod.com From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 13 03:41:42 2002 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Conseil request about some systems I can obtain Message-ID: <156001c27294$9a1ccc20$13912a3e@sergio> Hello. Is possible (ONLY possible by now) that I could obtain these equipment: * 1 Serie/1 (little size serie) * 1 IBM RT (with BSC connection to...) * 1 IBM S/370 4361 with a couple of disks of 25 kilos, one 3279 console and one 3174 terminals controller * 1 PDP system (used for instrumentation controlling, unknown model yet) * 1 CP/M S-100 system (unknown model yet) * Software and Documentation All items are stopped from two years ago. Some of them are stored in a great general store of the company who wants get rid of them. With independence of the conservation state of all the stuff. What preventions must I have about the management of these computers ? My panic comes about a possible damage of the items in the moment of start up them. I should agree any comments. Thanks and Greetings. Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 13 03:54:13 2002 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Sorry, three messages of the same :-( Message-ID: <156f01c27296$7933e460$13912a3e@sergio> Sorry, a mistake sending the message three times :-( Sergio -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/ba570071/attachment.html From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 13 04:10:13 2002 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Test. Ignore Message-ID: <15ae01c27298$aed9cce0$13912a3e@sergio> Thanks. Sergio. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/e33dd194/attachment.html From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Oct 13 06:05:00 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: latest find... References: Message-ID: <043901c272a8$95fa8290$7800a8c0@george> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 10:33 PM Subject: Re: latest find... > > That's an incredibly nice setup. It entails everything I had at the time > I sold my Aquarius to fund the purchase of my first Apple ][+. I don't feel so bad now. Still not going to add up the total. Whoever runs the thrift stores in Texas should move up here. :/ > > A lot of the stuff that Aquarius promised never came out. However, I did > just buy a modem off of eBay. And I missed (by a couple hundred dollars) > an incredible auction that include the ultra-mega-rare Aquarius disk drive > (3" mechanism) and 4-color printer. If I had more money I would have bid > more (it ended up being something like US$350). There are only two > Aquarius disk drives that I know to exist. The modem would be neat to have. I wasn't sure if it had been released. I'm missing the so-called printer cable, but I now believe it's merely a three-conductor headphone cable. Can anyone confirm this? > > I do have the even rarer Aquarius II, but I really want the disk drive > (and I know a certain someone on this list who has the 4-color printer ;) > > Sellam Ismail Bob From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Sun Oct 13 08:21:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation References: Message-ID: <3DA973C9.909D7026@compsys.to> >"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > NOTE: > I am NOT implying that it isn't POSSIBLE to have a "desktop" with full > functionality, merely that with WINDOZE it is sometimes useful or > necessary to use the command line. Jerome Fine replies: Another example is when I use GHOST. Normally, GHOST must be used at the CLI and even booted from the A: floppy drive. However, it is also possible to do certain functions under Windoze which don't require booting from the A: floppy drive - although officially Semantic does NOT support them except when they are executed after booting from the A: floppy drive. On those occasions, if any of the switches are required, executing from the CLI is the only way rather than using the mouse and clicking on the file GHOST.exe to initiate running thE program. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Sun Oct 13 08:24:24 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <200210122336.TAA65858204@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <3DA9741D.1D10542B@compsys.to> >Megan wrote: > >DEC GT40. That's a PDP11/05 (with real core memory) and a VT11 vector > >display board set in a desktop case with a monitor on top and a separate > >keyboard). 3 user input devices -- the keyboard, a light pen and the > >lights-n-switches panel. > I wish I had one... I'm trying to get the hardware I need to at > least put a VT11 on an 11/05 or 11/34a so I can get spacewar > running... As I mentioned in a prior post, I found the DR11C > which has the original spacewar control boxes we used at WPI > back in the later 70s. I also found the source for the spacewar > we played -- written by a friend of mine who was also a student > at WPI... Jerome Fine replies: While I have a number of versions of the source for SST (Super Star Trek) which was first written around the same time, I don't think I have the FORTRAN IV source for the SST.SAV and SST.DOC files (well obviously I do have the source for the DOC file since that is the source) that were also released around 1979 as well. Those two files are at dbit under games for RT-11 unless you want me to e-mail them. Might you know where the FORTRAN IV source for that version might be found. Also, I suspect that the 1979 version of SST must have been compiled using V3.0x of RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Sun Oct 13 08:27:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <200210120457.g9C4vHa04312@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3DA9753E.9819BFF2@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I presume the LK201 and the LK401 are plug compatible? > > Also, what are the actual differences and why do you prefer > > the LK401? > Yes, they are compatable/interchangable. I've ended up with a LK201 > attached to the VT420 on my PDP-11/73 somehow, but the rest of the VT420's > I'm using have LK401's. I prefer the LK401's as they 'feel' better to me. > I think the keys are slightly different in shape/angle. I just wish they > had the flap that at least some LK201's have to put the piece of cardboard > that shows what the function keys are mapped to. Jerome Fine replies: While I was in the basement this morning trying for the 99th time to recover some more bad blocks from an RK05 pack, I noticed an LK401 keyboard that I acquired about two years ago when I also acquired some BA23 boxes that were about to be tossed as well. My eye sight may be failing, but for the FIRST time, I just noticed that the LK401 keyboard has TWO ALT KEYS!!! WHAT are they doing there and WHAT are they used for? And what function do they have?????? Anyone, PLEASE. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From guerney at bigpond.com Sun Oct 13 08:30:01 2002 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: latest find... References: Message-ID: <004101c272bc$63bddac0$7937fea9@Guerney> Sellam, Does your count of 2 Aquarius disk drives include the one I have here in Brisbane, Australia? We have communicated about several things over the years, but I can not remember if the Aquarius came up. What is particularly interesting about the one I have, perhaps, is the serial number RH0100001. I know these numbers can be misleading, but it certainly looks like a low number! The disk manual is just a set of photocopied pages. There are a total of 7 AQ-DOS commands (DIR, INIT, SAVE, LOAD, KILL, WRITE, DISKCOPY). The DOS has a MicroSoft copyright. Each side of the 3"(?) floppy holds 51,200 bytes which means 102,400 bytes alltogether (which is exactly 100K). This was one of my first ever vintage purchases, from a local classified ad, and the whole Aquarius kit including the drive cost me $A20. At the time I had no idea how rare the floppy drive was, but I soon found out as I started to investigate it. I would love to know how it got to this city. Cheers Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 12:33 PM Subject: Re: latest find... > A lot of the stuff that Aquarius promised never came out. However, I did > just buy a modem off of eBay. And I missed (by a couple hundred dollars) > an incredible auction that include the ultra-mega-rare Aquarius disk drive > (3" mechanism) and 4-color printer. If I had more money I would have bid > more (it ended up being something like US$350). There are only two > Aquarius disk drives that I know to exist. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 08:53:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <200210120502.g9C52Ad04550@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20021013135422.50776.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Solaris, and the max memory is 64MB except for the SPARC 2 which can > > take 128MB with a rare and expensive add-in board. > > Isn't that 96MB with a rare and expensive add-in board, and 128MB with an > EVEN rarer and expensive daughter board for the rare and expensive add-in > board. Fair enough. I don't have one, so I only know about them from the Hardware FAQ. When I needed/wanted to move up from 64MB, I went to an LX and then a Classic (backwards, yes, I know, but the original motherboard _and_ a replacement died in my LX - one the SCSI bus gave out, the other is now DOA) That's all been retired in favor of my current SPARC5/110. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 09:08:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: PDP-8/L troubleshooting (was Re: New acquisition, and question) In-Reply-To: <20021012011712.46276.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021013140914.30155.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Loboyko Steve wrote: > On the FOCAL issue, I think I read that FOCAL can't > load text very quickly - you have to stop and start > the tape every line or two. An ASR-33 for DEC hardware has a "reader run" relay and current loop. The CPU steps the reader one character at a time to prevent this sort of thing. My ASR-33 _is_ one of these. > I have noticed this with > my PDP/8e clone and not-very-fast (around 100 CPS) > paper tape reader. It may use its own intepreter to > store coding in RAM, so it might be very slow in this > area. The DEC highspeed reader controls the tape feed, just like a TTY. This sort of thing was a problem in the old days, so DEC engineered solutions for it. > If you can load FOCAL itself in via paper tape, > this kind of proves that the PTR itself is OK. The PTR itself is OK. Where I suspect the problem is in the CPU. The BIN loader (which loads FOCAL) does not use a wide range of instructions. I expect that I have a dirty card edge or blown gate that is causing less-common instructions to fail in interesting ways. I need to sit down with the diag tapes (which I have) and the instructions (which I also have) and run this box through its paces, one paper tape at a time. > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Got some minor processor glitch I haven't tracked > > down yet... I get the FOCAL prompt, but it won't load > > Hammurabi... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Sun Oct 13 09:25:01 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: LK401 keyboard [was: Re: Favorite terminal] References: <200210120457.g9C4vHa04312@shell1.aracnet.com> <3DA9753E.9819BFF2@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3DA98229.58B01035@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > My eye sight may be failing, but for the FIRST time, I just > noticed that the LK401 keyboard has TWO ALT KEYS!!! > WHAT are they doing there and WHAT are they used for? > And what function do they have?????? Anyone, PLEASE. They are defined by the application. In other words, they have no local function, and they don't modify other keys by default. The VT420 supports Key Position Mode, in which keys send ISO 9995 key position codes (A01, C99, etc.) instead of ASCII/ISO Latin-1 codes. In this mode, the "modifier" keys, Ctrl, both Shifts and both Alts, send status codes for key up and key down events. - Paul From claudew at videotron.ca Sun Oct 13 09:30:00 2002 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20021013013926.00ab3360@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <002701c272c5$bd490c00$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> These would be likely pulls from any of the following: PowerMAC 4400 or Motorola Starmax 3000,4000,5000 or 5500 series Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:39 AM Subject: Re: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? > Which PowerMac is it? I thought they all could use FPM..... > > At 01:52 AM 10/13/02 -0400, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Eric Smith" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 1:24 AM > >Subject: Re: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - > >anyone? > > > > > > > > Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo > > > > 2k refresh 168pins... > > > > > > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but older Apple systems don't > > > take DIMMs, or even SIMMs. :-) > > > >I know... > > > >But the system in question is not quite "that old".... > >Maybe I should of said "Apple MAC sytstem"...or "older MAC".... > >Anyways....what I wrote is exactly what I am looking for.... > > > >Thanks > >Claude > >http://computer_collector.tripod.com > From jruschme at netzero.net Sun Oct 13 09:44:01 2002 From: jruschme at netzero.net (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Sun clones, was Re: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: <3DA899C5.7030400@tiac.net> Message-ID: > From: Bob Shannon > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:53 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Sun clones, was Re: Sun Sparc ID > > > I see people on the list understand these little pizza-box machines. > I'll have to confess to total ignorance of > the Sun workstations (having been a Domain OS user), but while removing > some test equipment that had been left behind when a large company > moved, I grabbed the following Sun clones: > > (they need homes, as the space they are taking up is worth more to me > than they are...) > > Axil 320, no so loaded, but interesting. > > The motherboard on the 320 is interesting, the simm slots have > extensions for even wider simm modules. There are four of these > extensions but only 2 are populated with contacts, each adding 36 > contacts to the simm slot. I've never seen a simm like this. The simm > modules installed do not use these extended contacts. It sounds a lot like the DIMM sockets in the Sparc 20. If so, the slots with the extensions can accomodate three kinds of DIMMS: - Regular Sparc 10/20/... memory DIMMS - 4mb or 8mb VDIMM (VRAM for onboard 24-bit framebuffer) - 2mv NVRAM DIMM used by the Prestoserve software I'm curious... how much do you want for it? <<>> From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Oct 13 09:48:00 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Sun clones, was Re: Sun Sparc ID References: <3DA899C5.7030400@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3DA9888C.3080309@tiac.net> I seem to have forgotten to say where the Axil machines are located! I'm in centeral Massachusettes, about 30 minutes north of Worcester, or a bit over an hour west of Boston. I've set no specific asking prices. Any offers or trades will be welcome, but I'd really rather not have to ship these things, as their size and shape are a very poor fit for any common boxes. I've got nothing in them, and I don't beleive they are at all valuable. So if someone is going to come and take them away I'll be happy to see them go. If I have to try to pack and ship them then there is a hasstle-factor and trades become more attractive. You know, I really ought to get my collection into a more presentable state, should near-by collectors want to drop in to see some of my less-common working systems. I've been working on a sort of spring-cleaning, well, since last spring anyway. This is why all sorts of things I'd nearly fogotten (like lisp machines, 1801's, RM503's, etc) have been turning up and are being offered on the list. Maybe by next spring it might be nearly presentable! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 13 10:03:00 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc ID In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "Re: Sun Sparc ID" (Oct 12, 21:00) References: <200210121900.g9CJ0XI13210@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10210130133.ZM924@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 12, 21:00, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 11 Oct, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Uses 30 pin parity memory. May not like 3 chip PC SIMMs. > May depend on the SIMMs / RAM chips and the refresh cycles they need. > My SS1+ was happy with 3 chip SIMMs. So was mine. It does depend on the refresh, though. That's why some older PCs also have trouble with some 3-chip 30-pin SIMMs. One of my friends had that problem. > > Prefers 9 chip SIMMs. Can take 1MB, probably takes 4MB (mine did). > All SPARCstations should be able to take 4 MB SIMMs as the SS1 can take > them. (According to the sun.hardware.FAQ file.) Yes, it does. I had an SS1 and still have an SS1+ that both have 4MB SIMMs, and I've seen an SS2 with 4MB SIMMs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From altertech at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 13 10:27:00 2002 From: altertech at blueyonder.co.uk (Rob Hamadi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? In-Reply-To: <002701c272c5$bd490c00$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20021013013926.00ab3360@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021013160230.02716c50@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> At 03:35 PM 10/13/02, Claude wrote: >These would be likely pulls from any of the following: > >PowerMAC 4400 or Motorola Starmax 3000,4000,5000 or 5500 series Or any UMAX clone (I think, now what did I stick in my S9000?). I've got two 32Mb ones, but I'm in the UK: not much good to you, I suppose, unless you're going to VCF in which case I'd be happy to bring them over - swap em for something? Datasheet at: http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/productfolder.jhtml?genericPartNumber=tm4ep64bpn For reference the following text is taken from an advert placed by a chap in Peterboro, UK, who I've found to be a reliable supplier of memory for older macs. He trades on ebay as baggycat. "NB. The only Powermacs that require EDO or 2k memory are 54/5500, 64/6500, 20th Anniversary and they can only accept 64mb max size modules. All other Powermacs will treat EDO DRAM as FPM - except 7200, EDO will most likely fry your motherboard!." Rob From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Oct 13 11:56:00 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Amusing book cover Message-ID: <200210131640.g9DGeaRD050075@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Moonlighting With Your Personal Computer Waxman, Robert J. World Almanac Publications, 1984 ISBN 0-345-31652-5 What's so amusing? The cover photograph is of a Fortune 32:16, and placed to the left of the title and blurb "An Insider's Advice on How You Can Earn Thousands of Extra Dollars". Oh well, I thought it was funny. -Frank McConnell From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Sun Oct 13 12:02:00 2002 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: DEC stuff wanted.. Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721407FCBD@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Hi all, Wheee.. thas been a loong weekend so far, trying to get all the piles of DEC stuff back into cabinets and in complete, working order... Then again, one can whine about that here, as we all do it, sometimes with grumbling wives and annoying kids in the dim background, but hey.. :) Anyway. Does anyone have (part of) the following items I could use to complete the 11/83 (BA123) box: - BA123 front plate saying "PDP-11/83" - mine says "MicroVAX II" - BA123 "front panel" switch set - I have one in, but kinda need two more, if they're around - *external* cable set for the tape unit - see below. I have an Emulex QT13 Pertec controller doing TSV05 emulation- runs well. However, for obvious reasons, the Cipher F880 tape drive is external, in a neat "tabletop" kind of box, even, with the two signal cables coming out and going into the back of the BA123, through one of the (now empty) faceplates. I'd like to replace that with a QT13 cab kit for BA123, and a cable I can plug into the Cipher and then into the cab kit thing, like I have for the (external) TK50 drive connected to my MicroPDP. I _know_ they exist, as I have seen them... just don't know where to look for these gadgets. Also, if anyone in Holland still has a couple of larger ESDI drives (600+ MB, similar to RA82) laying around.. pse contact me off-list.. I need one to emulate a RA82. Thanks, now back to my cabling issues here... :) --fred From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 13 12:09:01 2002 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal At&t/WE Blit In-Reply-To: <20021013132101.13806.62226.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021013132101.13806.62226.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20021013183857.11783.qmail@mail.seefried.com> > I'd love to have one, never seen a live one - but > it was one of the experimental 68k based terms > brought to you by the makers of Unix(tm) ;) While the BLIT was experimental (and contrary to other posters was 68000-based), it was commercialized as the AT&T 5620. It was the 5620 that was based on a WE processor. We had tons of them at Georgia Tech. The successor terminals (the 630 & 730) switched back to the 68000. Check the FAQ: http://www.bell-labs.com/user/dwd/5620faq.html Ken From jim at jkearney.com Sun Oct 13 12:32:01 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors References: <20021013132101.13806.62226.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021013183857.11783.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <003001c272de$984d1590$1301090a@jkearney.com> I've been playing around with the Inverse Assembler toolkit for HP logic analyzers after Joe Rigdon asked me some questions about them recently. It's a neat capability; you write them in a simple language that gets compiled to some kind of intermediate code, and that is interpretable on just about any analyzer from the 1630A up. I've written one for the 8008, which I would be happy to make available to anyone interested. I'm wondering if anyone has any others, like the 6502, 8080, 6800 etc. Typically I think they came with the matching probe fixtures, but you only have to know what bits to hook for the status word in order to use them with the standard probes. There doesn't seem to be an archive on the net for these, aside from a few on Agilent's website. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 13 12:59:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: My First S-100 System In-Reply-To: <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> from "Otter" at Oct 12, 2 04:16:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 622 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/776ccf99/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Oct 13 13:01:00 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Fortune 32:16 (was: Amusing book cover) In-Reply-To: <200210131640.g9DGeaRD050075@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 13 Oct 2002, Frank McConnell wrote: > Moonlighting With Your Personal Computer > Waxman, Robert J. > World Almanac Publications, 1984 > ISBN 0-345-31652-5 > > What's so amusing? The cover photograph is of a Fortune 32:16, and > placed to the left of the title and blurb "An Insider's Advice on How > You Can Earn Thousands of Extra Dollars". Way Back When - I was sent by the rat-box computer store I was working for to attend the Fortune Service Seminar - to learn basic-level fixit stuff. It was a one-week class in another city, rather expensive plus transportation and lodging.... not four months later they went belly up and no one would touch the remaining (expensive) machines left in stock... I still have the glossy silver-and-blue Certificate we got at the end of the class. They weren't badly built, IIRC - they were mechanically modular the way DEC stuff is, or the newer Mac G4s... the documentation was lucid and nicely done... the company just didn't make the cut. I've once in a while gotten the bug to get one - but I remind myself of the List of Lists of Projects.... Actually a similar thing went on with Molecular - which I thought were quite advanced machines for the time. We sold several of them, got horribly burnt when the one running a lawyer's office went irremedially casters-up: Molecular was on it's last legs and couldn't support it, and we ended up buying the machine back *and* providing another complete system free of charge. Store policy changed thereafter to "Never sell anything to any more Lawyers!" and then I left to go on to bigger and better things - swearing certainly to never, ever, ever again work any job having anything to do with Retail anything.... but I digress. > > Oh well, I thought it was funny. > It was such a snazzy name: Fortune 32:16. A business name - substantial, executive - not like having Fruit on your desk... or a business computer touted by... Charlie Chaplin???? Puh-leeeze! Cheers John From mbg at TheWorld.com Sun Oct 13 13:11:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal References: <200210122336.TAA65858204@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <200210131812.OAA66416931@shell.TheWorld.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >While I have a number of versions of the source for SST (Super >Star Trek) which was first written around the same time, I don't >think I have the FORTRAN IV source for the SST.SAV and >SST.DOC files (well obviously I do have the source for the >DOC file since that is the source) that were also released >around 1979 as well. Those two files are at dbit under games >for RT-11 unless you want me to e-mail them. > >Might you know where the FORTRAN IV source for that >version might be found. Also, I suspect that the 1979 version >of SST must have been compiled using V3.0x of RT-11. Your message was in response to my message about Spacewar on a GT40... I wasn't talking about Star Trek or Super Star Trek. They are entirely different games... I've not seen SST for quite a while... I might have a copy somewhere in my disk archives, but they are not currently accessible (being in storage)... I'm pretty sure there is a copy *somewhere* on the net... Megan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 13 13:13:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <3694.4.20.168.134.1034476920.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 12, 2 07:42:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/73587b5d/attachment.ksh From cb at mythtech.net Sun Oct 13 13:17:00 2002 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? Message-ID: >Sorry, I know this is quite off topic but I know a lotta people here >accumulate tons of stuff with time (like me) and there is a good chance some >will have this... > >Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo 2k >refresh 168pins... > >Will trade for vintage/semi-recent/recent stuff - I have tons : networking, >DEC, Sun, SGI, Apple, 8-16 bit hobby micros etc... - Ask They won't be willing to trade... but www.18004memory.com (Coast to Coast Memory) sells these. I just bought two 64 MB ones (these exact ones) for $23 each. I can't say for sure if they are new, or used (they don't differentiate on their site), but I do know that they test everything right before it is packaged for shipping, so it worked when it left their store. They also stand behind their chips, and will trade out anything that arrives non-functional (or if you bought the wrong chip). -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 13 13:19:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, J.C. Wren wrote: > Two things: Dysan disks, while reliable, were considered > incredibly abrasive. There was an independant study done by a drive > manufacturer, Qume, IIRC, that strongly recommended not using Dysan. > drive manufacturer, Qume, Makers of the Qume 142 : the "FIRST" "half height" 5.25" drive to be widely distributed; (I don't know who might have developed one earlier), the worst reliability of any drive EVER. Even worse than the BASF 2/3 height drive. IBM originally used the 142 in the "Portable" (Compaq wannabe) and the PCJr. ONE OF the major reasons for the release of PC-DOS 2.10 was that the 142 was so friggin slow that the OS had to change the seek time to allow for slower drives! I don't recall that study. Dysan disks were widely regarded as being the best, although many people felt that they were not AS MUCH BETTER as they claimed, nor worth their "premium price". > Verbatim diskettes were only used when you wanted to be sure no one, > including yourself, would ever read the media again. Verbatim became > better many years later, but they were left with a major stigma. Verbatim had a "short" period where they produced a lot of truly BAD batches, including some where the coating wore off of the mylar in record time. They were good BEFORE that time, and AFTER. But something like that is hard to live down. Once they fixed their problems (which they never admitted to), they over-overcompensated, and produced exceptionally good disks for a while. Wasn't "DATALIFE" trademark originated during that period, sort of as a promise that "these are not the same as the crap that we sold you last time"? > Maxell was my personal media of choice. I used Maxell 8's, 5.25's, 3.5's, > cassette, reel to reel, 4mm, 8mm, and on a few rare occasions, 9 track. > I've had far fewer problems with Maxell media than anything I've ever used. Maxell tended to be consistently good. But EVERY company occasionally puts out some bad ones. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 13 13:23:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > In 1972? I got a military surplus Tektronix scope. I think that the model > > number was 512. On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > The oldest Tek I ever owned was a real oddball called a 514AD. I sold it > to a Tek collector. It was clearly an mid or early 50s type. About 5 years ago, I sold my 512 to a young man who was enthusiastically trying to teach himself elctronics. $1 He's still using it, but now also has a slightly newer one (with plugins!) From foo at siconic.com Sun Oct 13 13:44:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: latest find... In-Reply-To: <043901c272a8$95fa8290$7800a8c0@george> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Robert F. Schaefer wrote: > The modem would be neat to have. I wasn't sure if it had been released. Me niether until I saw one on eBay. They come up from time to time. Mine was still shrink-wrapped even. There are a few sellers on eBay who seem to have bought out the remaining stock of Aquarius game carts when it was discontinued. They come shrink-wrapped. You can find them by searching on "mattel aquarius". > I'm missing the so-called printer cable, but I now believe it's merely a > three-conductor headphone cable. Can anyone confirm this? Me too. Notice that it uses two different sized jacks though. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 13 13:49:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: My First S-100 System In-Reply-To: References: <3DA84AFB.30228.879002A@localhost> from "Otter" at Oct 12, 2 04:16:59 pm Message-ID: <34493.64.169.63.74.1034535034.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Most S100 cards used only standard chips, and the manuals were normally > excellent giving full schematics (and programming data for PROMs/PALs if > any were used). Speaking of Cromemco cards, and only using "standard chips", does anyone have a source for the TMS3417, used on the Cromemco Dazzler? Google only turns up a single mention of it, on a German page. "Standard chips" aren't necessarily all that easy to find. (But much easier to find than gate arrays and other ASICs.) From foo at siconic.com Sun Oct 13 13:50:01 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: latest find... In-Reply-To: <004101c272bc$63bddac0$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Phil Guerney wrote: > Does your count of 2 Aquarius disk drives include the one I have here in > Brisbane, Australia? We have communicated about several things over the > years, but I can not remember if the Aquarius came up. I don't know...where did you get your disk drive from? It doesn't surprise me a whole lot because that is where I got my Aquarius II from (by way of a friend). Andrew Davie (now in Tasmania) found two Aquarius II's for sale in a newspaper ad several years ago. My friend Doug found the Aquarius disk drive in a local electronics surplus shop in around 1997 or thereabouts. He traded that for an Aquarius II from Andrew plus some carthridges that enabled a Commodore 1541 to be connected to the Aquarius. I traded an ASR-33 for the Aquarius II. Andrew Davie recently sold the disk drive to someone else. I found his website. I don't think it was you or else I would have recognized the name. > What is particularly interesting about the one I have, perhaps, is the > serial number RH0100001. I know these numbers can be misleading, but it > certainly looks like a low number! It looks like the first! > The disk manual is just a set of photocopied pages. There are a total of 7 > AQ-DOS commands (DIR, INIT, SAVE, LOAD, KILL, WRITE, DISKCOPY). The DOS has > a MicroSoft copyright. Each side of the 3"(?) floppy holds 51,200 bytes > which means 102,400 bytes alltogether (which is exactly 100K). Interesting. > This was one of my first ever vintage purchases, from a local classified ad, > and the whole Aquarius kit including the drive cost me $A20. At the time I > had no idea how rare the floppy drive was, but I soon found out as I started > to investigate it. I would love to know how it got to this city. Me too! I wonder if maybe you bought it from the same fellow that Andrew got the Aquarius II's from? The Aquarius II was never officially released. The fellow Andrew bought them from was a developer writing some teletext software for it and so had some pre-release machines for development. However, they were production models, not prototypes. I imagine the disk drive went out to several developers as well. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 13 13:54:00 2002 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Fortune 32:16 (was: Amusing book cover) In-Reply-To: References: <200210131640.g9DGeaRD050075@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <34496.64.169.63.74.1034535315.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> John Lawson wrote: > It was such a snazzy name: Fortune 32:16. A business name - > substantial, > executive - not like having Fruit on your desk... or a business computer > touted by... Charlie Chaplin???? Puh-leeeze! In the late 70s and early 80s, business people knew that computers were giant machines sequestered in a temple with raised access flooring, heavy- duty air conditioning, and their own priests and accolytes to keep the rabble away. So if you wanted to have any hope of selling small computers to business people, it was *essential* to make them seem friendly and approachable. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 13 13:55:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Corn Puffs box misinformation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > Hang on, it wasn't my intention to get your dander up. Not to worry > The problem with that, IMO, is that none of the tools that ship with > Windows, CLI or otherwise, are particularly robust, or even suited to any > but the simplest of the most basic tasks. DEBUG seems to be almost as good as earlier versions But I do agree, at least in principle, except that the tools that ship with the OS are THERE and AVAILABLE. It behooves one to know how to use them, even if somebody somewhere might have a better tool that could be obtained. There are better debuggers than DEBUG; but ANY PC that I sit down at HAS it. > In the general case I think the > point that is more useful to illustrate is "use the appropriate tool for > the job". exactly. and the task at hand is to refute the absurd notion that the WINDOZE desktop is "ALWAYS" appropriate, with EXAMPLE tasks. And to learn to use the tools that are present, in addition to seeking out other tools that might or might not be available. > > Does that program compare two files? > > The parts of it that were successful in loading made no mention of file > > compare. (It reported an "internal error") > You lost me. Which program? FileMerge is an app that ships with the > developer option for NEXTSTEP and provides a combination of functionality > offered by the standard UNIX utilities 'diff' and 'patch'. > I hope you weren't trying to execute the .tiff screen capture that the URL > pointed to, as an application binary... You gave "as examp0le" a URL; I trust you; so I pointed a browser in a fairly isolated machine at the URL that you posted. What came up was "IMAGING" program. > > File compare was merely an example that the "desktop" in MICROS~1 OS's > > does NOT provide all and every capability that had previously been > > provided in the CLI. > I don't think anybody would argue that it does. YES, THEY DO! (but not HERE) That is EXACTLY the issue. The original issue of the thread was that some beginners claim that there is no need for the CLI, and OBJECT to class time on it! > Clearly the CLI doesn't > provide all the capabilities offered by the GUI either, but I know you > weren't saying that. While YOU AND I agree to the obvious, the source of this subthread was to provide examples to refute the absurd assertion that the WINDOZE DESKTOP handles everything. The specific history of this thread is: STUDENT: Why do we have to do this DOS crap? Will it be on the FINAL? You can do everything in Windows XP by clicking on it! TEACHER: Think so? Here's a disk with two large files. Are they identical? Followed by my asking whether anybody had some suggestions for other simple tasks to make the point that the CLI, and the programs that come with it, has some usefulness of its own, and that there is a REASON why the CLI is still present in MICROS~1 OS's. > It's all about the tools! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 13 14:05:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? In-Reply-To: <013201c2727c$b561ec80$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: > > > Looking for these for an older Apple system...32megs or 64megs 3.3v edo > > > 2k refresh 168pins... > > I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but older Apple systems don't > > take DIMMs, or even SIMMs. :-) On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Claude.W wrote: > I know... > But the system in question is not quite "that old".... > Maybe I should of said "Apple MAC sytstem"...or "older MAC".... > Anyways....what I wrote is exactly what I am looking for.... I thought that the "older MAC"s used 64K DIPs - had they already abandoned DIPS in 1984? It would still be nice to SAY what model machine you are looking for; a model name or number is much clearer, and more likely to invoke a willingness to help, than describing some characteristics of the machine and refusing to identify it. But, in any case, what you're looking for is much too new for any Apple stuff that I have. Sorry. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Sun Oct 13 14:13:00 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F. Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: latest find... References: Message-ID: <007d01c272ec$d3180410$7800a8c0@george> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:45 PM Subject: Re: latest find... > On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Robert F. Schaefer wrote: > > > The modem would be neat to have. I wasn't sure if it had been released. > > Me niether until I saw one on eBay. They come up from time to time. Mine > was still shrink-wrapped even. There are a few sellers on eBay who seem > to have bought out the remaining stock of Aquarius game carts when it was > discontinued. They come shrink-wrapped. You can find them by searching > on "mattel aquarius". None current, and I didn't see your modem either. Might I inquire how much you paid for it? Judging from the prices on epay, it would seem that the whole *is* worth less than the parts. > > > I'm missing the so-called printer cable, but I now believe it's merely a > > three-conductor headphone cable. Can anyone confirm this? > > Me too. Notice that it uses two different sized jacks though. Hadn't yet. Found some reference that claims it's a subset of RS-232C, as in GND, Rx & Tx. Maybe I'll open 'em up and take a look. > > Sellam Ismail Bob From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Oct 13 14:13:28 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal At&t/WE Blit In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021013174312.02617598@kerberos.davies.net.au>; from Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au on Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 05:45:32PM +1000 References: <3DA71CE5.E5AB9E8D@ecubics.com> <3DA82F1A.2020501@tiac.net> <3DA849F8.3E846E4C@ecubics.com> <001301c27242$5e66d240$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <4.3.2.7.2.20021013174312.02617598@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20021013121458.A25829@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 05:45:32PM +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > monitor installed. The only problem with a VT05 is that it > is an upper/lower case terminal with uppercase only display. > This lead to interesting problems with earlier versions of > tops-10 which didn't understand lower case versions of commands: > > .dir > ?dir? If the display was uppercase only, wouldn't that have been .DIR ?DIR? (and I can see how that would have driven even the most experienced person insane)? -- Derek From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 13 14:20:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors References: <20021013132101.13806.62226.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021013183857.11783.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <003001c272de$984d1590$1301090a@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <003701c272ed$9fe696a0$0101a8c0@jay> I have been looking for inverse assembler modules for my HP logic analyzer for some time, to no avail. Any chance I might be able to snag a copy of the Inverse Assembler toolkit? I'd dearly love to write up a module for the 2100 and/or 21MX.... Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kearney" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 12:33 PM Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors > I've been playing around with the Inverse Assembler toolkit for HP logic > analyzers after Joe Rigdon asked me some questions about them recently. > It's a neat capability; you write them in a simple language that gets > compiled to some kind of intermediate code, and that is interpretable on > just about any analyzer from the 1630A up. > > I've written one for the 8008, which I would be happy to make available to > anyone interested. I'm wondering if anyone has any others, like the 6502, > 8080, 6800 etc. Typically I think they came with the matching probe > fixtures, but you only have to know what bits to hook for the status word in > order to use them with the standard probes. There doesn't seem to be an > archive on the net for these, aside from a few on Agilent's website. > > Jim > > > From altertech at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 13 14:31:00 2002 From: altertech at blueyonder.co.uk (Rob Hamadi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: British micros for sale / trade at VCF Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021013202247.02718010@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> I thought it might be a nice idea to bring some 8 bit British micros to VCF. Having measured my suitcase & dug out my roll of bubble wrap here's what I reckon I can bring. The machines won't be boxed but I will bring power supplies (220V) for those that won't work off a generic PSU (Dragon, QL). The BBC has a built in PSU, the electrons need 19V and the spectra 9V. I'm open to offers, either money or kit, my aim is more to defray my airfair than to make a profit. Of course, if anyone's looking for anything in particular that's more common in the UK than the USA do let me know. Best regards Rob 3 off Acorn Electrons - working 6 off Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K rubber keys - 5 working, one with minor keyboard fault (B and N keys) 2 off Sinclair ZX Spectrum + 48K - one fully working, one with some keys not registering 2 off Dragon 32 - working 2 (or possibly 3) off Sinclair QL - all with some keys not registering. 1 off Acorn BBC Micro model B with DFS (floppy disk interface chip - less common) - working. I may be able to bring a drive as well. 1 off Cambridge Z88 Possibly 1 off Oric 1 From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Oct 13 14:56:00 2002 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <20021012030101.98859.49253.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >From: emanuel stiebler >what is THE favorite terminal you folks here use ? Textronix 4025. No color, but nice graphics, macros, screen scrollback, contained a Z-80 (or 2?) and 64k RAM back when that was actually an OK computer system. Intuitive graphics language. Very nice physically. Loved it. Can't find one, now... - Mark From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Oct 13 15:30:00 2002 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd@dds.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Contacting erikb@cyberspace.org In-Reply-To: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1034540793.3da9d6f9eba78@webmail.dds.nl> Hello Erik, Your e-mail address "erikb@cyberspace.org" doesn't exist according to my server. Please let me know the correct address, so I can reply. greetings, Michiel ps. (almost) old-computer-related bit: I just got a Jamma-converter for CD-i players complete with snackbar-type quiz game. The questions are in German, but it's still great fun to play; especially since you get credits by just pressing a button instead of throwing money into the machine... From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Oct 13 15:55:01 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: Fortune 32:16 (was: Amusing book cover) In-Reply-To: John Lawson's message of "Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:02:18 -0400 (EDT)" References: Message-ID: <200210132055.g9DKtIWQ054297@daemonweed.reanimators.org> John Lawson wrote: > On 13 Oct 2002, Frank McConnell wrote: > > What's so amusing? The cover photograph is of a Fortune 32:16, and > > placed to the left of the title and blurb "An Insider's Advice on How > > You Can Earn Thousands of Extra Dollars". What I found amusing was the placement of a computer made by a company named "Fortune" next to those words. Not because of any particular failings of the company or its hardware. > Actually a similar thing went on with Molecular - which I thought were > quite advanced machines for the time. We sold several of them, got Molecular apparently did build some interesting machines, multiprocessor Z80 systems which were connected to an in-the-box CSMA/CD bus for communication with the computer that had disks attached. Haven't seen one but have heard about it from some folks I work with who used to work for Molecular or with their systems. > It was such a snazzy name: Fortune 32:16. A business name - substantial, > executive - not like having Fruit on your desk... or a business computer > touted by... Charlie Chaplin???? Puh-leeeze! Also a good way for one executive to tell his peers and underlings how much he could blow on a desk ornament. -Frank McConnell From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Oct 13 16:13:01 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:57 2005 Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors References: <20021013132101.13806.62226.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021013183857.11783.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <003001c272de$984d1590$1301090a@jkearney.com> <003701c272ed$9fe696a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3DA9E2CA.70306@tiac.net> There is a primative native disassembler for the HP 2100's. Its part of a cleaver little debug tool called OCTAPUS-C, which you can find a binary for on Terry's HP-IPL/OS web page, along with some documentation for it. Just in case your needing to disassemble something right away... Jay West wrote: >I have been looking for inverse assembler modules for my HP logic analyzer >for some time, to no avail. Any chance I might be able to snag a copy of the >Inverse Assembler toolkit? I'd dearly love to write up a module for the 2100 >and/or 21MX.... > >Jay West >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Kearney" >To: >Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 12:33 PM >Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors > > >>I've been playing around with the Inverse Assembler toolkit for HP logic >>analyzers after Joe Rigdon asked me some questions about them recently. >>It's a neat capability; you write them in a simple language that gets >>compiled to some kind of intermediate code, and that is interpretable on >>just about any analyzer from the 1630A up. >> >>I've written one for the 8008, which I would be happy to make available to >>anyone interested. I'm wondering if anyone has any others, like the 6502, >>8080, 6800 etc. Typically I think they came with the matching probe >>fixtures, but you only have to know what bits to hook for the status word >> >in > >>order to use them with the standard probes. There doesn't seem to be an >>archive on the net for these, aside from a few on Agilent's website. >> >>Jim >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/65a9e43f/attachment.html From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Oct 13 16:25:01 2002 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd@dds.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Erikb has been found In-Reply-To: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20021009035800.71368.18115.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1034544131.3da9e403d5ae7@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, Erikb has already been contacted. Thanks! greetings, Michiel From jim at jkearney.com Sun Oct 13 16:37:02 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: HP LA Inverse Assemblers for classic microprocessors References: <20021013132101.13806.62226.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> <20021013183857.11783.qmail@mail.seefried.com> <003001c272de$984d1590$1301090a@jkearney.com> <003701c272ed$9fe696a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <006f01c27300$d30ec530$1301090a@jkearney.com> > for some time, to no avail. Any chance I might be able to snag a copy of the > Inverse Assembler toolkit? I'd dearly love to write up a module for the 2100 Right, I should have put that in the original posting... there are a few of Agilent's IA's at ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/callpub/ddt/IA/ and the toolkit is at ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/callpub/ddt/10391b/. Jim From altertech at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 13 17:22:00 2002 From: altertech at blueyonder.co.uk (Rob Hamadi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Quite OT : Im looking for 168pin 3.3v edo 2k refresh dimms - anyone? In-Reply-To: <007e01c272d1$2b840980$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> References: <012401c27277$f14375c0$6400a8c0@gamerclaude> <34150.64.169.63.74.1034486676.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <5.1.1.6.2.20021013013926.00ab3360@mail.zipcon.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021013160230.02716c50@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021013230727.027259c0@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> At 04:57 PM 10/13/02, you wrote: >The dimm must be 2k refresh. I dont wanna spend a lot on this. It is. >Its for a StarMAX 4000/160. I bought the box ram-less for $10CAN and now I >learn it might not roll OS8 but just 7.5....it might just be thrashed... It will run any OS from 7.5.3 through 9.1. See http://www.lowendmac.com/moto/4000.shtml >this would be my fastest mac in my "home-network" , replacing an old and >slow 6100/60... I know the feeling. Apart from the compact macs in my collection, I've got two powermacs on my lan. A dual 233MHz 604e running 9.1 and a 7300/166 running Yellow Dog Linux. >Think of what you might want (small item) in a trade for this... I don't know. An accelerator or Z80 card for an Apple II? Stuff for a TRS80 model 1 or 100? A NIC for a C64 (joking!)? Most of my stuff is 1980s or there abouts, space is at a premium in London so I don't have room for any of the bigger, older kit. Mail me off list with an offer of whatever you feel is appropriate. Best Regards Rob From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Oct 13 17:22:29 2002 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes References: Message-ID: <007401c27307$380aea80$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Being realistic, I didn't expect Tektronix to keep spare parts for 30 > year old instrumentes either.... I wonder if they've still got spares for the 46x series scopes, specifically the 466. I need a new front panel cover, accessory pouch (the one with the zip), scope probe, storage pouch (the one that bolts onto the top of the scope) and implosion guard (Perspex sheet that protects the CRT - mine has a scuff on it). Anyone know of a source for these parts? I've also heard that the 466 used some Tek-made ICs too, vertical driver or something like that. Anyone got some spares they feel like parting with? Just one final thing - my 466 has an "Xray radiation shielded" label on the back - was this put on by Tek before the scope left the factory or was it done by its previous owner? Later. -- Phil. philpem@dsl.pipex.com http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 13 17:49:01 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA9753E.9819BFF2@compsys.to>; from jhfinepw4z@compsys.to on Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 15:29:34 CEST References: <200210120457.g9C4vHa04312@shell1.aracnet.com> <3DA9753E.9819BFF2@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20021013172759.K16770@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.10.13 15:29 Jerome H. Fine wrote: > My eye sight may be failing, but for the FIRST time, I just > noticed that the LK401 keyboard has TWO ALT KEYS!!! > WHAT are they doing there and WHAT are they used for? > And what function do they have?????? Anyone, PLEASE. I don't know what they do when the LK401 is used on a VTxxx, but they are used as ALT keys (what else?) when the LK401 is used on a workstation, namely DEC 3000 Alphas. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 13 18:40:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Vintage Scopes In-Reply-To: <007401c27307$380aea80$0100000a@philpem.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Being realistic, I didn't expect Tektronix to keep spare parts for 30 > > year old instrumentes either.... > > I wonder if they've still got spares for the 46x series scopes, > specifically the 466. I need a new front panel cover, accessory pouch > (the one with the zip), scope probe, storage pouch (the one that bolts > onto the top of the scope) and implosion guard (Perspex sheet that > protects the CRT - mine has a scuff on it). Anyone know of a source for > these parts? I've also heard that the 466 used some Tek-made ICs too, > vertical driver or something like that. Anyone got some spares they feel > like parting with? As far as scratched plastic goes, I'd recommend you try polishing it out, since a replacement is likely going to be difficult to obtain. I know for a fact Tektronix no longer supports the 2213 60MHz analog scopes. I bought 3 of them at auction some time ago, and when I called Tektronix, I was informed that they had recently sold off all the manuals, probes, and spare parts inventory for these to GTE. I was given a contact name and phone number for someone at GTE by Tektronix, but when I called them, GTE would not sell me any parts. They wanted me to send in my scopes, charge me an extremely high troubleshooting fee, charge me more for whatever they thought needed to be replaced/repaired, and then charge me yet again for return shipping. I nearly hung up on them... I've since located a source for the special P6120 probes, and am now in the process of buying them. I have not yet located the Service/Operators manual(s). One of the 2213s needs a new plastic faceplate, as it appears someone dropped it. I'd not be too worried about it, except that it is used to support the CRT. Thankfully, the rest of the scope (and especially the CRT) is just fine. -Toth From h.godavari at shaw.ca Sun Oct 13 19:11:03 2002 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (harsha godavari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> <3D9C58A4.4C983EAE@ccp.com> <2280.4.20.168.172.1033674938.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20021006152730.TJZP9131.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Message-ID: <3DA387AF.24D65D87@shaw.ca> If you are in Canada, when the UPS guy shows up with the parcel, tell him to take it back and that you will clear it through customs personally. They will call you in afew days with some papers for you to take to the customs office. Take them and have them stamped by the customs (they may charge some duties+taxes). Return to UPS and hand over the papers. At that point you will have a choice of picking up the parcel(from UPS warehouse) personally or have them deliver it (no charge for that). If it is within the size limits USPS/CanadaPost is the cheapest solution. UPS is very greedy. As for collection agency it can happen even if you cleared it yourself (personal experience :-)) Make sure that UPS makes appropriate notes on the paperwork that there is no brokerage due and all dues are paid. Regards Harsha Godavari Mike wrote: > > On Thursday 03 October 2002 15:55, Eric Smith wrote: > > > One needs to consult with a customs broker, and there are many in > > > business on both sides of the border. > > > > For old equipment, the broker's fee will exceed the import duties you > > could expect to pay. I've had people send me stuff from Canada, and > > later received outrageous bills from customs brokers, usually for > > around five times what I paid for the merchandise. As far as I'm > > concerned, I have no established business relationship with these > > customs brokers. I did not expect the sender to use such a broker, and > > was not told that it would be done. So I have never paid them. > > I tried this approach with UPS. They sent me the bill after I'd already > given the goods away. > They sent a few threatening letters and then I got one from a > collections agency. From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:38:16 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Request from Intel's Museum In-Reply-To: <200210090132.SAA30608@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Imagine if the same amount of effort was applied > > to a sensible machine, like MIPS, Alpha, or ARM! > > Or PowerPC :-) Multigigahertz POWER4 is pretty far down the pipeline. Peace... Sridhar From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:38:54 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: DEC SDI Drives In-Reply-To: <003601c26f33$2ccef0d0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: I don't think shipping would be reasonable anyway. Thanks anyhow. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:27 AM > Subject: DEC SDI Drives > > > > > > Does anyone have any DEC RA7X drives they would be willing to let go real > > cheap? Size doesn't really matter all that much. > > I have some RA70's (250mb). I have a few 240v RA90's as well. Though getting > them to you in working order might be a problem from here. > > I've already struck a snag trying to send a q-bus board to a guy in the > states, I've had to resort to wrapping the antistat bag > in 2mm sheet lead, (we have a lead smelter here ;^) as the US xray or > irradiate every damn thing. It's a rare board so not taking any chances. > > > Geoff in Oz > From h.godavari at shaw.ca Sun Oct 13 19:39:22 2002 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (harsha godavari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: BSD 2.9 References: Message-ID: <3DA39836.D178ED2F@shaw.ca> Pat: did you ever locate a download_source for BSD 2.9? Regards Harsha Godavari Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Does anyone know where I could find a distribution of BSD 2.9 that I could > install on my PDP-11/23. Also, will it work with just a 'TU58' (or > possibly two) - I should hopefully have a working emulator by the end of > the week - and 32kW of ram? I don't need it to do much - I'd just like to > have something set up to play with a little. > > Thanks! > > Pat > > -- > "This fucking university has shown time and time again that it is > completely fucking incompetent when it comes to employing technology" > -- Anonymous > http://dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2040637020924.gif From h.godavari at shaw.ca Sun Oct 13 19:39:47 2002 From: h.godavari at shaw.ca (harsha godavari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Paperwork to move classiccmps from .ca to .us? References: <200210030748.g937m6g09430@io.crash.com> Message-ID: <3DA32F5F.692A2BBC@shaw.ca> Just phone the customs folks. They are usually quite helpful when approached for information :-) Regards Harsha Godavari Steve Jones wrote: > > Why do now what you can put off until the last minute... > > A gentleman in Canada has some hardware that he's willing to give > me (old computers in questionable state). Thing is, neither one of > us is sure if there's any paperwork required to bring these boxes > over the border. He's even willing to deliver, but not without any > necessary paperwork. > > Can anybody fill me in on what would be required? Would working > versus non-working make a difference? It's close to 15 years old > if that matters... > > Thanks, > --Steve. > > smj@spamfree.crash.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Oct 13 19:40:14 2002 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Scope Choice for Vintage Computer Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <61613.12.13.226.13.1034005547.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021007072229.0272a4d8@pc> <001301c26e12$07b89840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00bc01c26e13$a0e9b520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <61613.12.13.226.13.1034005547.squirrel@QuestMail.FutureQuest.net> Message-ID: <200210082051440349.C314F0F3@192.168.42.129> Hi, Mike, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 07-Oct-02 at 08:45 Mike wrote: >Ok, I need some advice on what type of scope might be available for >troubleshooting vintage computers. >I have already decided that I need more than is necessary. I want to >limit my choice to a economically priced portable LCD scope. However, I'm >not familar with what is available. >Any good choices? If it doesn't say 'Tektronix' on it, my opinion is that it's not worth bothering with. For the sake of both performance and 'classic' appeal, I would see about getting hold of one of the all-time favorites of former DEC field service engineers: The Tektronix 465, 475, or 475A, with the DM44 multimeter option if you can find it. I see all of the above come up on E-pay frequently enough, and I also see them at ham swaps. Good hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net Sun Oct 13 19:40:44 2002 From: jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: 10 years Message-ID: <63297.64.58.154.245.1034183115.squirrel@webmail.unixboxen.com> >On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, James Rice wrote: > >> By the strict 10 year rule, Tandy 1000's are on-topic. I bought the >> My 2000 is even older. > >Both the 2000 and 1000 had interesting deviations from the PC "standard". >The 2000 was a "720K" 5.25" disk format. > >IIRC, >The 1000 did not use DMA for disk I/O, somewhat like the PCJr. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com In stock form the 1000 did not use DMA, but any of the Tandy, and many of the third party memory expansion cards added DMA to the system. Even a dual 360k drive 384k RAM T1000 was a pretty decent machine IMHO. At least it came standard with a printer port. -- To Sleep, Perchance to Dream. For in that sleep of death what dreams may come when we shuffle off this mortal coil must give us pause From stefan at softhome.net Sun Oct 13 19:41:12 2002 From: stefan at softhome.net (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Parts for Teletype ASR35 needed Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021009191628.00aba0d8@pop.softhome.net> Hi, I have here a half working Teletype ASR35. I am missing some parts, namely the plastic hood, manuals and some lightbulbs. Also the ASR35 isn't working properly, I am missing half of the keyboard sorta speak, you can type uptil the letter H or so and then if you continue it starts with the A again. So any help with that is also welcome. Thanks!! Stefan. From gil at vauxelectronics.com Sun Oct 13 19:41:35 2002 From: gil at vauxelectronics.com (gil smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Parts for Teletype ASR35 needed Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021009111229.00a9c9a0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi Stefan: You may be interested in the greenkeys teletype email list -- lots of good folks with questions, answers, etc. (I am admin of it). Let me know if you want more info. You could join and ask, or I could forward your message if you'd rather. There is likely someone on greenkeys who can help you. I'm not personally familiar with the 35 (though it's just an ascii version of the baudot 28). The 35 is a heavy-duty machine that you should be able to return to service (as opposed to the 33, which is a crappy design that just wears out). I'd love to see some pics of your 35. There was a guy in NJ last month with two 35 machines on ebay. He could not get $5 for them, and may still have them. I have collected a few teletype machines that I am restoring (not selling): an M15-ksr, an M31-ksr, an M33-asr, an M28-ksr table-top, an M28-ro, an M28-rotr, an M28-td, an M14-td, and an M14-ktr. gil smith At 07:19 PM 10/9/02 +0200, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have here a half working Teletype ASR35. I am missing some parts, namely >the plastic hood, manuals and some lightbulbs. Also the ASR35 isn't >working properly, I am missing half of the keyboard sorta speak, you can >type uptil the letter H or so and then if you continue it starts with the A >again. > >So any help with that is also welcome. > >Thanks!! > >Stefan. > > > ;----------------------------------------------------------- ; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 ; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) ;----------------------------------------------------------- From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:43:02 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor In-Reply-To: <050d01c26fb8$b0456a40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: BTW, for all you microchannel-heads out there. I have quite a few 100Mbps Ethernet cards for microchannel new in box. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor > > > > > > I used to work in a group at Lucent (in Columbus, OH) that > > maintained Suns and NCR 34xx machines. How many MicroChannel > > SCSI cards does yours have? Ethernet? > > > > 1 x SCSI, 0 x Ethernet although i may have an IBM one somewhere > > > /snip > > > If you want to run multi-processor UNIX (NCR's MP-RAS) on what > > are probably P-90 chips, it's a fine little beast. Otherwise, > > it's an I/O-heavy desktop machine. A giant PeeCee, really. > > > > Hmm, was afraid of that, more or less ............. > I'll propably will salvage usable parts from it and turn to > more vintage stuff like Sun or Intergraph stations for projects .......... > > If somebody is in dire need of a low weight part of this machine ? > Let me know (soon! ;-) > > > > > I was told that you could stick in a DOS boot floppy and play > > DOOM on one. Never got the chance, though. :-) > > > > > Sipke de Wal > ----------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ----------------------------------------------------- > From stefan at softhome.net Sun Oct 13 19:43:33 2002 From: stefan at softhome.net (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Parts for Teletype ASR35 needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021009111229.00a9c9a0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021009204053.0227bb10@pop.softhome.net> Yup, I saw them on eBay, but he would only sell me the complete things :( And since I live in the Netherlands shipping them complete was VERY expensive. I would have payed for the whole thing but just would have let him send the smaller parts to me. But yes, if you could add me, send me more info, please do! Stefan. At 11:12 9-10-2002 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Stefan: > >You may be interested in the greenkeys teletype email list -- lots of good >folks with questions, answers, etc. (I am admin of it). Let me know if you >want more info. You could join and ask, or I could forward your message if >you'd rather. There is likely someone on greenkeys who can help you. > >I'm not personally familiar with the 35 (though it's just an ascii version >of the baudot 28). The 35 is a heavy-duty machine that you should be able >to return to service (as opposed to the 33, which is a crappy design that >just wears out). I'd love to see some pics of your 35. > >There was a guy in NJ last month with two 35 machines on ebay. He could >not get $5 for them, and may still have them. > >I have collected a few teletype machines that I am restoring (not selling): > an M15-ksr, an M31-ksr, an M33-asr, an M28-ksr table-top, an M28-ro, an >M28-rotr, an M28-td, an M14-td, and an M14-ktr. > > >gil smith > > >At 07:19 PM 10/9/02 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I have here a half working Teletype ASR35. I am missing some parts, namely > >the plastic hood, manuals and some lightbulbs. Also the ASR35 isn't > >working properly, I am missing half of the keyboard sorta speak, you can > >type uptil the letter H or so and then if you continue it starts with the A > >again. > > > >So any help with that is also welcome. > > > >Thanks!! > > > >Stefan. > > > > > > > >;----------------------------------------------------------- >; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 >; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) >;----------------------------------------------------------- From gil at vauxelectronics.com Sun Oct 13 19:43:57 2002 From: gil at vauxelectronics.com (gil smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Parts for Teletype ASR35 needed Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021009115406.00a90540@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi Stefan: The greenkeys teletype email list averages a few emails a day (not overwhelming). To sign up, you need to go to: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys You can poke through the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ You can peek at my incomplete and random tty stuff at: http://www.vauxelectronics.com/gil/tty/ There's also some interface stuff at: http://www.vauxelectronics.com/gil/tty232/ Bill Buzbee wrote a program that lets a tty send/receive email, ftp, and other cool things: http://www.buzbee.net/heavymetal/ http://www.buzbee.net/heavymetal/Intro.htm And yet more tty stuff at http://www.rtty.com and http://www.nadcomm.org later, gil At 08:42 PM 10/9/02 +0200, you wrote: >Yup, I saw them on eBay, but he would only sell me the complete things :( >And since I live in the Netherlands shipping them complete was VERY >expensive. I would have payed for the whole thing but just would have let >him send the smaller parts to me. > >But yes, if you could add me, send me more info, please do! > >Stefan. > >At 11:12 9-10-2002 -0700, you wrote: >>Hi Stefan: >> >>You may be interested in the greenkeys teletype email list -- lots of good >>folks with questions, answers, etc. (I am admin of it). Let me know if you >>want more info. You could join and ask, or I could forward your message if >>you'd rather. There is likely someone on greenkeys who can help you. >> >>I'm not personally familiar with the 35 (though it's just an ascii version >>of the baudot 28). The 35 is a heavy-duty machine that you should be able >>to return to service (as opposed to the 33, which is a crappy design that >>just wears out). I'd love to see some pics of your 35. >> >>There was a guy in NJ last month with two 35 machines on ebay. He could >>not get $5 for them, and may still have them. >> >>I have collected a few teletype machines that I am restoring (not selling): >> an M15-ksr, an M31-ksr, an M33-asr, an M28-ksr table-top, an M28-ro, an >>M28-rotr, an M28-td, an M14-td, and an M14-ktr. >> >> >>gil smith >> >> >>At 07:19 PM 10/9/02 +0200, you wrote: >> >Hi, >> > >> >I have here a half working Teletype ASR35. I am missing some parts, namely >> >the plastic hood, manuals and some lightbulbs. Also the ASR35 isn't >> >working properly, I am missing half of the keyboard sorta speak, you can >> >type uptil the letter H or so and then if you continue it starts with the A >> >again. >> > >> >So any help with that is also welcome. >> > >> >Thanks!! >> > >> >Stefan. >> > >> > >> > >> >>;----------------------------------------------------------- >>; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 >>; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) >>;----------------------------------------------------------- > > > ;----------------------------------------------------------- ; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 ; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) ;----------------------------------------------------------- From Qstieee at aol.com Sun Oct 13 19:44:26 2002 From: Qstieee at aol.com (Qstieee@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor Message-ID: <131115F0.3F03611A.001A265C@aol.com> I believe NCR's PC group went to AT&T, so some support might be there. From Qstieee at aol.com Sun Oct 13 19:44:49 2002 From: Qstieee at aol.com (Qstieee@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Parts for Teletype ASR35 needed Message-ID: <69C14BAA.4BC75D4C.001A265C@aol.com> The last time I saw a teletype gainfully employed it was maintained by Western Union service people, even though it was attached to a real-time computer system, not the WU network. So WU may still maintain some service capability. From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:45:14 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: SCSI drive available In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021009205248.00a48950@66.67.226.217> Message-ID: I don't think that drive will even come close to physically fitting in a Sun Lunchbox case. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Well, I happen to have a 5.25" Hull height Seagate 10gig SCSI drive > available. It powers, never fully tested it though. Hildebrand was going to > take it but it fell through. I also have a 1gig IBM and I think one or two > 2gig drives (Maxtor? and Seagates). Anyone need one or specs? Seagate seems > to like me lately. Going for shipping only. > john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org > BTW: nice to see that Sridhar is still with us. =) > -John > > > At 12:18 AM 10/9/02, you wrote: > >On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > > > Actually, that's a 2.2 gig drive. The 12400N is an early Hawk series, > > > very popular with the Sun 'lunchbox' systems. > > > >As a matter of fact, I'd like to find one of these for my Sparc LX. It > >came without a drive (removed because the place that owned it was > >paranoid). > > > >-Toth > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > From vassilip at dsl.cis.upenn.edu Sun Oct 13 19:45:43 2002 From: vassilip at dsl.cis.upenn.edu (vassilip@dsl.cis.upenn.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) Message-ID: <200210101027.g9AARmdh016726@codex.cis.upenn.edu> Joe wrote: > I don't know what the difference is between an A and a B model. [...] There are two models corresponding to the 85 and the 85B. I am supposed to have an 9915B (that's what it says on the box), but the main PCB says 9915-66512 Rev A. Go figure. If I could power it up I'd know whether its an A or a B by the amount of RAM, but I am still debugging the PSU. > >As for the control connector, I have no idea what that might be used for. > > I don't recall if it's input and output or only input but the 9915 can > detect switch closures and take pre-programmed action. From eam at fernsoft.com Sun Oct 13 19:46:17 2002 From: eam at fernsoft.com (Beth Madry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: IBM ThinkPad 750T Message-ID: <17582209210.20021010122024@fernsoft.com> Are you still looking to get rid of this? How much are you asking for it? * IBM ThinkPad 750T (pen-based computer with doc). Comes with power brick, dock and 185mb PCMCIA hard drive. PenWindows 95 installed. // www.fernsoft.com // The place for custom software and graphics, // doing the hard stuff so that you do not have to. From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sun Oct 13 19:46:42 2002 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: History Channel - The Internet: Behind the Web Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20021010180050.00807994@pop.iae.nl> Hi, I guess it would be too much to hope that some one has recorded this program and can capture it to an avi file, so that us foreigners who don't have this channel can see it too? It seems very interesting! Kees. At 11:55 10-10-02 -0400, you wrote: >This show had the most footage of Imlac's I've ever seen. A really >great program! > >David A. Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Just curious... did anybody else watch the History Channel last >>night, 7:00PM Eastern Time. The Modern Marvels episode was about the >>creation of the internet. Rather fascinating to me (who learned some >>things), and kinda neat to put faces to names... >> Not to mention the pictures of the old, err, classic computers and >>terminals... From robert at usce.org Sun Oct 13 19:47:05 2002 From: robert at usce.org (Robert M. Campbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: FYI Message-ID: <000001c2709a$4b5f3380$0a01a8c0@uscex> I need 45 as is LK402-a DEC keyboards.........PO Robert M. Campbell U.S. Computer Exchange, Inc. 386 East Maple Troy, MI 48083 Ph. 248 583-9000 Fx. 248 583-9009 robert@usce.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/0d2507ea/attachment.html From robert_little_2000 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 19:47:34 2002 From: robert_little_2000 at yahoo.com (Robert Little) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:58 2005 Subject: Tandy Model 600 Question In-Reply-To: <20021010170001.85817.62376.Mailman@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20021010214247.33325.qmail@web20608.mail.yahoo.com> Just dug a Tandy 600 out of the dungeon up here at the science center, found an appropriate power supply and tried it out. Nada. Zip. Anybody out there have experience with this machine? All I know is that it has internal ni-cads (which are to be clipped out), an SSDD 3 1/2" FD, and looks like a Model 100/102 on steroids. I think the chipset is also unique (80C88 ?). Any thoughts would be appreciated... Robert Little Astronomer Talcott Mountain Science Center Avon, CT __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From kevin at hitechstencils.com Sun Oct 13 19:47:58 2002 From: kevin at hitechstencils.com (kevin wong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Hi Marvin, If you still have these ones ,please contact me .I want to buy some. Kevin. Apollo Keyboard w/ Logitech 3-button Mouse - $5.00 plus shipping for 6 pounds from zip code 93105. Email me if interested. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/e9bd2054/attachment.html From luser at xtra.co.nz Sun Oct 13 19:48:23 2002 From: luser at xtra.co.nz (Kenneth Dunn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: SIPPs Message-ID: I recall someone asking about SIPPs the other day. Was it on this list ? I found 3x 30 pin SIMM -> SIPP converters in my junk box if that is out any help. From peter.mate at verizon.net Sun Oct 13 19:48:58 2002 From: peter.mate at verizon.net (P.M.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: FS: HP1000 Computer System Message-ID: <3DA72EB4.000003.01412@piii850m> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/625031c6/attachment.gif From gil at vauxelectronics.com Sun Oct 13 19:49:22 2002 From: gil at vauxelectronics.com (gil smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: HP 9915A (industrial version of HP 85A) Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021011134430.00a6a5b0@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi Joe: I subscribed and posted to cctech, but found your response in the cctalk archive. This list is new to me -- do you think I should I subscribe to cctalk instead of cctech? >>>I have three or four 9915s and a keyboard... I don't know what the difference is between an A and a B model... I did make a schematic of my keyboard but I haven't seen it in a while... >>> As I understand it, the 9915A is compatible with the HP-85 (aka HP-85A), while the 9915B is an 85B. IIRC, the 85B has built-in mass-storage and i/o roms, and more ramdisk memory than the 85A. I'd sure appreciate any keyboard info you may run across -- I could program a little pic to convert a serial keyboard. If this keyboard is used with other HP machines, other folks might find an adapter handy too. >>>You need to use the HP composite monitors. IIRC the PN is 82912 and 82913. These are used on the HP 86 and commonly used on the 9000 220 (aka 9920) and are pretty common. >>> >>>There were software developement kits available that let you write programs in assembler and burn them into EPROMs that plugged into a HP-85 type plug-in cartridges (called a Hybrid ROM or something like that) or directly into the 9915. The EPROMs that are in it are probably Matrix and/or I/O ROM IIRC. That seems to be standard in the 9915s that I'm aware of. >>> Yes, I have a programmable-rom-module and assembler rom (but have not tried them yet). A buddy of mine has managed to read 85 roms and burn them into eproms for the prog-rom-module. The original 85 roms seem to be special, and cannot be simply duplicated. I opened up a rom, hoping to find a standard package, but found a chip covered in a blob of epoxy, attached directly to a small board. I opened the rom drawer card, and found that all six sockets are wired in parallel (no individual enable lines to each). Then I looked at the signals connected to the rom card connector (using the serial manual's connector pinout as a reference). The roms have +12V, +6V, and -5V power. There is an 8-bit bi-directional bus, and four non-overlapping 12V clock signals. There is a "load-memory-address" line, a "power-on" line, "read" and "read-control" lines, and even a "write" line (I don't know why write is available on a rom). This all leads me to believe the roms are pretty specialized. Since there are no lines to enable a specific rom socket, I think the 85 must poll for roms using fixed address ranges or something -- this implies that the roms contain address qualification circuitry of some sort. I'm just speculating, but it would make the roms very difficult to duplicate, since this is not a standard address-bus/data-bus (or even a typical multiplexed addr/data bus). Thanks for the info Joe, gil ;----------------------------------------------------------- ; vaux electronics, inc. 480-354-5556 ; http://www.vauxelectronics.com (fax: 480-354-5558) ;----------------------------------------------------------- From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:49:48 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: <20021012010517.G16770@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: I wonder why the DEFZA isn't supported yet? Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Hi. > > Are there any programming docs for the DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / > M7534 available? > I have one of this beasts and a NetBSD driver would be quite nice. This > may be not to hard to accomplish, as there is already support for the > other PDQ cards (DEF[TEP]A). > -- > > > > tschüß, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > From matt at 3am-software.com Sun Oct 13 19:50:14 2002 From: matt at 3am-software.com (Matt Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: References: <20021012010517.G16770@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011170740.03a5cd50@3am-software.com> At 04:19 PM 10/11/2002, vance@neurotica.com wrote: >I wonder why the DEFZA isn't supported yet? Because no one has had enough interest to do it yet. The DEFZA requires a new driver. The DEFQA can reuse the existing PDQ framework for DEF[TPE]A. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/ Cupertino, CA Disclaimer: I avow all knowledge of this message From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:50:39 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011170740.03a5cd50@3am-software.com> Message-ID: <365B4FAE-DD78-11D6-9697-000393970B96@neurotica.com> On Friday, October 11, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Matt Thomas wrote: >> I wonder why the DEFZA isn't supported yet? > > Because no one has had enough interest to do it yet. > > The DEFZA requires a new driver. The DEFQA can reuse > the existing PDQ framework for DEF[TPE]A. I have a few DEFZAs here that I'd be happy to donate for driver hackitude. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "PC users only know two 'solutions'... St. Petersburg, FL reboot and upgrade." -Jonathan Patschke From matt at 3am-software.com Sun Oct 13 19:51:04 2002 From: matt at 3am-software.com (Matt Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: <365B4FAE-DD78-11D6-9697-000393970B96@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011170740.03a5cd50@3am-software.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011173453.03a67db0@3am-software.com> At 05:19 PM 10/11/2002, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Friday, October 11, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Matt Thomas wrote: >>>I wonder why the DEFZA isn't supported yet? >> >>Because no one has had enough interest to do it yet. >> >>The DEFZA requires a new driver. The DEFQA can reuse >>the existing PDQ framework for DEF[TPE]A. > > I have a few DEFZAs here that I'd be happy to donate for driver hackitude. The question is whether anyone with the ability wants to write such a driver. I know I don't! -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/ Cupertino, CA Disclaimer: I avow all knowledge of this message From BNELSON at nwtel.ca Sun Oct 13 19:51:29 2002 From: BNELSON at nwtel.ca (Bill Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: HP ThinkJet 2225P Message-ID: Tony: Its parrallel NOT (HP1B=GP-1B=IEEE488) Let me know if you find the info on the interface pinout. I have one with the same problem no printer cable for it? Please send info to wnelson@yt.sympatico.ca and bnelson@nwtel.ca Thanks Bill PS have infot for IBM & Centronics if you need it From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:51:54 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011170740.03a5cd50@3am-software.com> Message-ID: So DEFZA is different hardware from the other three? The NetBSD/pmax FAQ seems to indicate otherwise. Maybe it should be changed. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Matt Thomas wrote: > At 04:19 PM 10/11/2002, vance@neurotica.com wrote: > > >I wonder why the DEFZA isn't supported yet? > > Because no one has had enough interest to do it yet. > > The DEFZA requires a new driver. The DEFQA can reuse > the existing PDQ framework for DEF[TPE]A. > > > -- > Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com > 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/ > Cupertino, CA Disclaimer: I avow all knowledge of this message > From vance at neurotica.com Sun Oct 13 19:52:24 2002 From: vance at neurotica.com (vance@neurotica.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: Favorite terminal In-Reply-To: <3DA7A922.E70A8643@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > The LT320 is a third-party plasma terminal. There are MMJ and > > DB25 serial connectors, and LK201/401-compatible and AT-compatible > > keyboard connectors. I use an LK401 with mine. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I presume the LK201 and the LK401 are plug compatible? > > Also, what are the actual differences and why do you prefer the LK401? > Sincerely yours, The LK201 and LK401 are compatible in every way. The LK201 is as flat as a board, and achieved a dubious distinction when it was involved in a repetitive-strain injury lawsuit. The LK401 is the ergonomic variety. However, the keys are a little different between the two, and a lot of people prefer the key feel from the original LK201. I prefer the LK401, myself. Actually, my favorite are the IBM buckling-spring "clickety" models. Especially the 3278 terminal keyboards. Peace... Sridhar From matt at 3am-software.com Sun Oct 13 19:52:52 2002 From: matt at 3am-software.com (Matt Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: DEC QBus FDDI adapter DEFQA / M7534 docs In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011170740.03a5cd50@3am-software.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021011223338.03a60268@3am-software.com> At 09:06 PM 10/11/2002, vance@neurotica.com wrote: >So DEFZA is different hardware from the other three? The NetBSD/pmax FAQ >seems to indicate otherwise. Maybe it should be changed. > >Peace... Sridhar Yes it is. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/ Cupertino, CA Disclaimer: I avow all knowledge of this message From Jack at Coats.org Sun Oct 13 19:53:18 2002 From: Jack at Coats.org (Jack Coats) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: Looking for: Ai Cybernetic Systems Model 1000 Speech Synthesizer. Message-ID: <000001c271f2$90886f40$3201a8c0@flame> I think I still have one. You might check with Wirt Atmar at AI Cybernetics. He did the original AI Cybernetic synthesizer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20021013/f0cc4811/attachment.html From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 13 19:53:42 2002 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:25:59 2005 Subject: Conseil request about some systems I can obtain References: Message-ID: <13e801c27201$af9c8740$13912a3e@sergio> Hello. Is possible (ONLY possible by now) that I could obtain these equipment: * 1 Serie/1 (little size serie) * 1 IBM RT (with BSC connection to...) * 1 IBM S/370 4361 with a couple of disks of 25 kilos, one 3279 console and one 3174 terminals controller * 1 PDP system (used for i