From ken at seefried.com Sun Apr 21 14:27:44 2002 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:22:37 2005 Subject: Heath Zenith in a Faraday cage, was Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204181917.g3IJH5b03278@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200204181917.g3IJH5b03278@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20020421192744.16357.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Yup...I've seen plenty of Zeniths (i386 & i486 models) in Faraday cages. For that matter, I've seen a bunch of MacIIfx decked out similarly. Tempest rated boxes. My first job was with a shop (SecureWare) that did high security versions of Unix for these things. SCO-based for the Zeniths & A/UX-based for the Macs. The Unix was refered to as CMW (Compartmented Mode Workstation), was validated as a B1-level system (in Orange Book speak), and featured a secure window manager based on X (windows have security labels, and you couldn't do things like cut and paste between windows with different security labels). Pretty kewl, if you are into that sort of thing. Ken From ken at seefried.com Sun Apr 21 14:27:44 2002 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:02:09 2005 Subject: Heath Zenith in a Faraday cage, was Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204181917.g3IJH5b03278@ns2.ezwind.net> References: <200204181917.g3IJH5b03278@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20020421192744.16357.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Yup...I've seen plenty of Zeniths (i386 & i486 models) in Faraday cages. For that matter, I've seen a bunch of MacIIfx decked out similarly. Tempest rated boxes. My first job was with a shop (SecureWare) that did high security versions of Unix for these things. SCO-based for the Zeniths & A/UX-based for the Macs. The Unix was refered to as CMW (Compartmented Mode Workstation), was validated as a B1-level system (in Orange Book speak), and featured a secure window manager based on X (windows have security labels, and you couldn't do things like cut and paste between windows with different security labels). Pretty kewl, if you are into that sort of thing. Ken From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 1 00:11:33 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) References: <3CA7D835.5E4FBA46@rain.org> <15527.58298.505188.700792@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CA7F092.3070808@internet1.net> <15527.62327.725265.883816@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Yes, I think your right. Still, I didn't realize that it contained such a high percentage of lead. Me thinks, I'll be more carefull while handleing it in the future. Lead is absorbed through the skin if I'm not mistaken. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > Nope. Solder for electronics us usually around 60% lead. You're > probably thinking of acid core vs. rosin core. > > -Dave > From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 1 00:54:20 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: IBM 1620 References: <3CA7D835.5E4FBA46@rain.org> <15527.58298.505188.700792@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CA7F092.3070808@internet1.net> <15527.62327.725265.883816@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CA8041C.5FF4ED2@rain.org> Take a look at Yahoo vintage auctions to find the "IBM 1620 CENTRAL PROCESSING UNIT, MANUAL 1964" at http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/63778516?aucview=0x10 The current price with no bidders is $3.50. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 1 01:20:20 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Yes, I think your right. Still, I didn't realize that it contained such > a high percentage of lead. Me thinks, I'll be more carefull while > handleing it in the future. Lead is absorbed through the skin if I'm > not mistaken. Even handling cool boards, pricking yourself with solder points, can be dangerous, if you do it enough. Peace... Sridhar From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Mon Apr 1 06:48:53 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020401074853.00dada88@pop1.epm.net.co> At 02:20 AM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: >> Yes, I think your right. Still, I didn't realize that it contained such >> a high percentage of lead. Me thinks, I'll be more carefull while >> handleing it in the future. Lead is absorbed through the skin if I'm >> not mistaken. > >Even handling cool boards, pricking yourself with solder points, can be >dangerous, if you do it enough. >Peace... Sridhar I've been soldering 25+ years. In my early teens, unaware of the poisoning risk, I used my patented 3-hand technique, which involved holding the work piece in my left hand, the soldering iron in my right hand, and the solder bobbin in my mouth... I did not actually put the solder in my mouth, but rather, I bit the edge of the plastic holder. Still, that was a very bad idea. I should probably be screened for lead... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 1 07:40:54 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) Message-ID: <001401c1d982$d999dd80$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Chad Fernandez >How much lead does solder dor electronics contain? I thought only >solder for pipes contained lead? The best alloy is 63/37 63%lead 37% tin. Common variety is 60/40. The lead is not a hazard by inhalation though some of the fluxes can be. It is a contact hazard over time as it can be transfered from the skin to lips and injested. Solution, wash hands after using. Solder for pipes, by mandate has been below 5% lead for years, it used to be mostly lead {90/10}. >>>It's true. The mercury was used to stiffen the brims. Chronic hat wearers >>>also had problems. Lead is bad as it's water soluable if the PH is right. Mercury is nastier as it has a low boiling temperature and combines with Oxygen readily. Allison From Lists at joules.org Mon Apr 1 07:33:18 2002 From: Lists at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020401074853.00dada88@pop1.epm.net.co> References: <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> <3.0.2.32.20020401074853.00dada88@pop1.epm.net.co> Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.20020401074853.00dada88@pop1.epm.net.co>, Carlos Murillo writes >I did not actually put the solder in my mouth, but rather, >I bit the edge of the plastic holder. Still, that was >a very bad idea. > >I should probably be screened for lead... 30 years ago I used to use my teeth to bite through solder rather than cutting it, but of course lead wasn't that dangerous in the '70s ;-). I also used to like the smell of the dust from brake linings after blowing the drums out with an air line, got my hands covered in benzene, toluene and such things in the lab and various other things which weren't particularly dangerous then... -- Regards Pete "Time flies like an arrow and fruit flies like a banana" From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Apr 1 08:38:34 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Unix disk images and archiving In-Reply-To: References: <200203271826.AA21034@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: <20020401143833.GA711849@uiuc.edu> Jeff, I'm not familiar with Next so this is speaking from general unix experience, but I think you need to copy the "whole disk" parition rather then the "a" partition on the OD. Assuming NextStep is using a BSD-style disk lable, which it looks like it is, "dd if=/dev/od0c of=/dev/od1c" would do it. I use this technique all the time on my linux machine to make archive copies of OS disks and it works great; the linux example would be "dd if=/dev/hdc of=", and then can be burned back to a CD later... Jeff Hellige said: > Ok, I've gotten the Pinnacle Micro Sierra 1.3GB MO drive to work using > the below disktab: > > # Pinnacle Micro Sierra optical disk drive > # ECMA 512 byte/sector media > # Disktab generated by Jessica Hayden from SunOS /etc/format.dat entry > # and NextAnswers document 1533 > PINNACLEOHD-1200|Pinnacle Sierra 1.2GB OHD|OHD-1200:\ > :ty=removable_rw_scsi:nc#5359:nt#7:ns#31:ss#512:rm#3600:\ > :fp#320:bp#256:ng#0:gs#0:ga#0:ao#0:\ > :os=sdmach:z0#64:z1#192:ro=a:\ > :pa#0:sa#1162903:ba#8192:fa#1024:ca#32:da#4096:ra#1:oa-space:\ > ia:ta=4.3BSD:aa: > > I initialized it with the following commands: > > disk -t "OHD-1200" -i /dev/rsd1a > newfs -n -v /dev/rsd1a > > I then ejected the disk and reinserted it. NS mounted it and reads > and writes to/from it just fine. It gives me nearly 600MB of space. > My next question would be what is the best way of making a bootable > copy of my internal MO disk to the Pinnacle MO? If I issue the > following command: > > dd if=/dev/rod0a of=/dev/rsd1a > > I get a read error on rod0a and dd aborts. > > If I issue the command: > > dd if=/dev/od0a of=/dev/sd1a > > dd copies data from the internal MO to the external MO but doesn't > copy the data in the subdirectories. Any suggestions? Would dump be > better for this? > > Thanks > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 09:12:59 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Unix disk images and archiving In-Reply-To: <20020401143833.GA711849@uiuc.edu> References: <200203271826.AA21034@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> <20020401143833.GA711849@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <02Apr1.103313est.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I'm not familiar with Next so this is speaking from general unix experience, >but I think you need to copy the "whole disk" parition rather then the "a" >partition on the OD. Assuming NextStep is using a BSD-style disk lable, which >it looks like it is, "dd if=/dev/od0c of=/dev/od1c" would do it. I use this >technique all the time on my linux machine to make archive copies of OS disks >and it works great; the linux example would be "dd if=/dev/hdc of=", and >then can be burned back to a CD later... Actually I got it working with 'dump' piped through 'restore', thanks to the suggestion from another list member. I was able to dump two of the NeXT optical disks to the Pinnacle, for archiving, and then dump one of them to an external 1GB hard disk. I have some fstab issues to work out with the copy though as it insists on booting into single-user mode looking for the optical disk in the internal drive. It gave me the same thing when I attempted to boot from the Pinnacle with it set to SCSI ID#0. I'm getting there, even if it is slowly. I still plan on messing with dd some more to try and create some images of the disks though. I'm hoping that since it has the dust filter installed that the optical drive in my Dimension Cube holds up long enough to finish transferring all of them. Since it doesn't have an internal boot drive, just a 40MB swapdrive at SCSI ID#6, I'm doing the test boots on my '030 Cube but using my extra '040 mainboard. I loaded the '030 mainboard with RAM and started to boot it and found out that it was set to boot over ethernet and that it had a hardware password set! Hopefully by the time I get home the mainboard will have forgotten it's hardware settings since it's been sitting with the battery out overnight. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From SALTOVDP at aol.com Mon Apr 1 09:29:10 2002 From: SALTOVDP at aol.com (SALTOVDP@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Dell monitor transistor Message-ID: <16d.b53714f.29d9d6c6@aol.com> Hi i have a line o/p transistor, s/c base/emitter 2SC5386 .Have you any info on its rating or equivelent kind regards robbie saltovdp@aol.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 1 10:17:32 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Re: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15528.34844.215669.743832@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 1, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Yes, I think your right. Still, I didn't realize that it contained such > > a high percentage of lead. Me thinks, I'll be more carefull while > > handleing it in the future. Lead is absorbed through the skin if I'm > > not mistaken. > > Even handling cool boards, pricking yourself with solder points, can be > dangerous, if you do it enough. Ahh, so handling Cray, Sun, or VAX boards can be dangerous, but those not-so-cool boards...say, ISA or PeeCee motherboards...are safe? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 1 10:31:27 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:49 2005 Subject: Dell monitor transistor In-Reply-To: <16d.b53714f.29d9d6c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401080950.04351260@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:29 AM 4/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >Hi i have a line o/p transistor, s/c base/emitter 2SC5386 .Have you any info >on its rating or equivelent >kind regards robbie http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/TOS/2SC5386.html?ReR=GG Here is it's datasheet in PDF format http://doc.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/pdf_e/docweb123/e007774.pdf A possible sub for the Toshiba 2SC5386 might be Sanyo's 2SC5297 http://www.electrospec-inc.com/ possible source for parts From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 1 11:53:52 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) References: <1f9vaut.vldvs7g5p4zyM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> <3CA71A98.72168B9A@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CA89EB0.EA563F@bluewin.ch> John Honniball wrote: > > > Something like the CMU Free6809 board would be great, but I'd > prefer to add a CRT coltroller to get a video display. I'd > also want a keyboard interface so that the machine could > be independent of a terminal. Maybe even a disk interface > of some sort, and the AY-3-8910 sound chip, and a parallel > port, and... Oh dear, now I'm making it too complicated! > My SWTP/c contains a third-party board called "the communicator" with a 6845 CRTC. Complexity is low : 6845, 2K sram, character generator and around 10 TTL IC's. It produces a standard 80x25 output. The same board also contains a 6821 to interface to a parallel ouput keyboard. The floppy interface of the SWTPc is also rather simple. Jos Dreesen From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 1 10:48:24 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: It saddens me to do this.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677D9@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but the @Home service went bankrupt right about that time. I remember hearing about a lot of Comcast cable internet customers having a bitch of a time getting their e-mail switched around correctly after that... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: Glen Goodwin > > > From: Curt Vendel > > > Back before Christmas I worked out a deal with Jeff Worley: > > > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > Asheville, NC USA > > 828-6984887 > > UberTechnoid@Home.com > > I'm sorry to learn you were ripped off. Thanks for the heads-up. > > Glen > 0/0 > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 1 11:32:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) References: <1f9vaut.vldvs7g5p4zyM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> <3CA71A98.72168B9A@gifford.co.uk> <3CA89EB0.EA563F@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen wrote: > > John Honniball wrote: > > > > > > Something like the CMU Free6809 board would be great, but I'd > > prefer to add a CRT coltroller to get a video display. I'd > > also want a keyboard interface so that the machine could > > be independent of a terminal. Maybe even a disk interface > > of some sort, and the AY-3-8910 sound chip, and a parallel > > port, and... Oh dear, now I'm making it too complicated! > > > > My SWTP/c contains a third-party board called "the communicator" with a 6845 > CRTC. Complexity is low : 6845, 2K sram, character generator and around 10 TTL > IC's. It produces a standard 80x25 output. > The same board also contains a 6821 to interface to a parallel ouput keyboard. > The floppy interface of the SWTPc is also rather simple. > > Jos Dreesen The trouble is getting a display for it. Unless it does Monochrome or vga output it is hard to find any monitors for anything older. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 1 04:10:15 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: S-100 Computers in New York, NeXT printers in California Message-ID: Hi. I called the guy in New York who is giving away all those Cromemco S-100 systems. He said someone was coming to pick everything up. I didn't want to be rude and ask who. I was interested in a couple pieces. Would the person who is picking those up please contact me? I'm hoping we can work out a deal. On another note, I accidentally deleted the Usenet message from the guy in the Bay Area (in California) who is selling a bunch of NeXT laser printers for $15. Does someone still have his contact info? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 1 12:25:40 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCA@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Please, please don't assume that the idiocy, the long-term impact on > innovation and economy, or even the legality of this bill have ANY > bearing on its likelihood of passing. Yep. > These puppet politicians really don't have a clue or a care what > they're sponsoring, and a lot of basically honest legislators are not > only absolutely illiterate concerning, but completely unaware > of, non-MS > computing and digital media technology in general. They can You're much more kind to them than I. I would have simply said they're treasonous, and have never heard of the US constitution. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 1 04:36:30 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: C128, Tandy 1000 to good home Message-ID: Please reply directly to Jerry. He's located in East Alton, Illinois, about 20 miles North of St. Louis. Reply-to: bargeboy@charter.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:19:45 -0600 From: bargeboy@charter.net Subject: old computers Hi there, I have and old commodore 128, disk drive, z80 programming software, assorted software, printers and such. I also have a Tandy 1000 hx computer and disk drive. As of my last using they all worked and I need to get rid of them but I would like them to go to a good home. I'm wondering if you might like them? Thanks - Jerry L. Mullins -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Apr 1 12:36:20 2002 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA89EB0.EA563F@bluewin.ch> References: <1f9vaut.vldvs7g5p4zyM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> <3CA71A98.72168B9A@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020401113551.028c2a28@mail.azstarnet.com> At 07:53 PM 4/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: >John Honniball wrote: > > > > > > Something like the CMU Free6809 board would be great, but I'd > > prefer to add a CRT coltroller to get a video display. I'd > > also want a keyboard interface so that the machine could > > be independent of a terminal. Maybe even a disk interface > > of some sort, and the AY-3-8910 sound chip, and a parallel > > port, and... Oh dear, now I'm making it too complicated! > > Pardon me if I missed the first part of this discussion. What is the CMU Free6809 board and where/how can I get one? GZ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 1 04:38:52 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Apple //gs in Long Island, New York Message-ID: Hank has an Apple //gs to give away. Contact him, not me. Reply-to: emann@suffolk.lib.ny.us >On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Hank Mann wrote: > >> I have an Apple 2 gs I would like to donate. Has cpu, monitor, two 3.5" >> drives, one 5.25" drive keyboard, Imagewriter2 printer, mouse(new), >> mouse(original-bad switch), manuals, 20+ software titles inc. >> AppleWorksGS 1.1. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From eklein at impac.com Mon Apr 1 12:40:42 2002 From: eklein at impac.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: S-100 Computers in New York, NeXT printers in California In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901c1d9ac$baa396d0$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> The gentleman with the S-100 gear in NY told me that there were 3 inquiries before mine, two of which were requests for the entire setup. . . oh, well. The NeXT printers are from ronfronberg@earthlink.net (Redwood City, CA) Erik S. Klein -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:10 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: S-100 Computers in New York, NeXT printers in California Hi. I called the guy in New York who is giving away all those Cromemco S-100 systems. He said someone was coming to pick everything up. I didn't want to be rude and ask who. I was interested in a couple pieces. Would the person who is picking those up please contact me? I'm hoping we can work out a deal. On another note, I accidentally deleted the Usenet message from the guy in the Bay Area (in California) who is selling a bunch of NeXT laser printers for $15. Does someone still have his contact info? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 1 12:45:38 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCA@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > These puppet politicians really don't have a clue or a care what > > they're sponsoring, and a lot of basically honest legislators are not > > only absolutely illiterate concerning, but completely unaware > > of, non-MS > > computing and digital media technology in general. They can > You're much more kind to them than I. I would have simply > said they're treasonous, and have never heard of the US > constitution. Do you remember twenty years ago, when the IRS blocked Apple's proposal to give computers to all of the schools? From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 1 12:48:56 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Looking for... Message-ID: Anyone know where I might be able to find a Tandy 4000? It's the Microchannel Tandy. Peace... Sridhar From bob at jftr.com Mon Apr 1 12:53:12 2002 From: bob at jftr.com (bob@jftr.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <004801c1d9ae$799f3b60$5408000a@crosstier.local> OK .. very old thread.. I know of the galaxy/5. Did a lot of programming on the beast, including creating a system call MTS -- Multi-Tasking System that let you run multiple programs per monitor. It was a lot of fun to program. Only about 30 of the things made. -- Bob Flanders -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/58a12b57/attachment.html From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Apr 1 12:55:43 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) References: <1f9vaut.vldvs7g5p4zyM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> <3CA71A98.72168B9A@gifford.co.uk> <3CA89EB0.EA563F@bluewin.ch> <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CA8AD2F.85F78C2F@gifford.co.uk> Ben Franchuk wrote: > Jos Dreesen wrote: > > My SWTP/c contains a third-party board called "the communicator" with a 6845 > > CRTC. Complexity is low : 6845, 2K sram, character generator and around 10 TTL > > IC's. It produces a standard 80x25 output. > > Jos Dreesen > The trouble is getting a display for it. Unless it does Monochrome or > vga output it is hard to find any monitors for anything older. That's another dilemma: do I go for "authentic" composite video at broadcast TV rates, or do I use a VGA monitor? If I choose TV output, the quality's poor and the design only works right for UK TV systems (625 line, 50Hz, PAL). It would need to be changed if anyone wanted a US version (525 line, 60Hz, NTSC). But if I go for VGA, well, that's 15 years old now, I suppose... just seems too "modern", somehow. What I'd really like to do is run the display in portrait mode. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 12:56:02 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020331203827.00da9dd4@pop1.epm.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Mar 31, 2 08:38:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/bb8c0773/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:02:47 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <3CA7F092.3070808@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 1, 2 00:30:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 957 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/ee10f8d3/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 1 13:04:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > But soldering in a new chip is, to me, about the same 'skill > level' as > patching a system program written in a high level language. > Which I most > certainly have done, and which I suspect many others here > have done too. I agree with that, though, if a socket will fit, it's generally a better thing to solder a new socket, and just put the chip in ;) Many others have probably soldered new chips too. :) I think that several people on this list already have basic soldering skills. It's just when it gets more advanced than that, the skills are not there. Most people I know can solder some, but they need more practice to be very competent. It's just a question of degree. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 13:09:30 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02Apr1.142944est.119048@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Anyone know where I might be able to find a Tandy 4000? It's the >Microchannel Tandy. Actually the 5000MC is the MCA Tandy machine. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 13:13:17 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <000701c1d9b1$47d75e20$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> >From the subjectline, I see this post *finally* made it... I was beginning to think Jack Valenti was censoring me... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > Please, please don't assume that the idiocy, the long-term impact on > > innovation and economy, or even the legality of this bill have ANY > > bearing on its likelihood of passing. > > Yep. > > > These puppet politicians really don't have a clue or a care what > > they're sponsoring, and a lot of basically honest legislators are not > > only absolutely illiterate concerning, but completely unaware of, non-MS > > computing and digital media technology in general. They can > > You're much more kind to them than I. I would have simply > said they're treasonous, and have never heard of the US > constitution. Adam Schiff, another congressman from California, is proposing a similiar law. Adam has stated that he doesn't expect the law to pass, but that its sole purpose is to gain leverage against the high-tech industry regarding the copyright issue and in favor of the entertainments industry. In other words, they we'll all be sufficiently scared that we'll finally give up some ground in the copyright issue. What ground is left to give up? They've already lengthened the terms of protection when they should have been shortening them. To my way of thinking, that constitutes abuse of process, and makes Fritz Hollings and Adam Schiff not merely traitors, but persona non grata. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Apr 1 06:08:37 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:36:10 CDT." <15527.58298.505188.700792@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200204011208.NAA28374@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Dave McGuire said: > On March 31, John Chris Wren wrote: > > It's true. The mercury was used to stiffen the brims. Chronic hat wearers > > also had problems. > > So does anyone have any idea how much lead is present in the vapors > produced by soldering? I know (for our kind of stuff, anyway) the > smoke is mostly flux and crap, but is there much lead in there? > > I solder a *lot*, especially lately...I'm wondering if I should be > concerned. I've been soldering now for around 45 years, and I used to do a lot of bullet casting so I've handled a *lot* of lead in my time. I was taken ill a few years ago with some symptons that could be remotely explained by heavy metal poisoning so I was thoroughly tested. My lead levels were right on the average for someone living in an urban environment. So if you're sensible I don't see a problem. Don't eat sandwiches while you're soldering...and wash your hands when you're done ;-) Lead in gasoline (petrol over here) was a bigger problem. Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From univac2 at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 13:21:33 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/1/02 12:48 PM, Sridhar the POWERful at vance@ikickass.org wrote: > Anyone know where I might be able to find a Tandy 4000? It's the > Microchannel Tandy. > > Peace... Sridhar A couple years ago, the RadioShack outlet store here in Fort Worth had a pile of 4000 CPUs. I think they're gone now though. I'll make sure the next time I'm down there. -- Owen Robertson From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 1 13:22:05 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <02Apr1.142944est.119048@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Anyone know where I might be able to find a Tandy 4000? It's the > >Microchannel Tandy. > > Actually the 5000MC is the MCA Tandy machine. I stand corrected. Anyone know where I can get a 5000MC? Peace... Sridhar From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:26:47 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) References: <1f9vaut.vldvs7g5p4zyM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> <3CA71A98.72168B9A@gifford.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20020401113551.028c2a28@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <3CA8B476.9D967A4@gifford.co.uk> Gordon Zaft wrote: > Pardon me if I missed the first part of this discussion. What is > the CMU Free6809 board and where/how can I get one? It's a 1993 design for a very simple 6809-based machine. It has a serial port (68B50), RAM (6264) and EPROM (2764). There's also an 8-bit latch for parallel output and I think you can set it up for a regular timer interrupt. The posting that started off the discussion was from Tim Lindner: > I found a copy on an unofficial mirror of RTSI: > > ftp://mirror.cocounravelled.com/OS9/OS9_6X09/PROG/Free6809.lzh > > For thoes of you unable to decode an LZH file I will also post a zip > file here: > > http://home.netcom.com/~tlindner/Download/Free6809.zip > > I also converted the included postscript file into a PDF. > > -- > tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Apr 1 13:27:11 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020401142711.017327b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar the POWERful may have mentioned these words: > >Anyone know where I might be able to find a Tandy 4000? It's the >Microchannel Tandy. Are you sure? I worked for Tandy as a salesman during that timeframe, and the *only* Tandy that I know of that was ever MicroChannel was the Tandy 5000MC (gee, guess what the MC stood for... ;-) And guess what the 5000 stood for: the cost... IIRC they were $4999 each! (I cannot confirm... the catalogs that I have that listed those are packed away, so others will have to jump in here...) Methinks a goodly chunk of that was IBM's licensing of the buss... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 1 13:33:04 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Re: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) (Stan Barr) References: <15527.58298.505188.700792@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200204011208.NAA28374@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <15528.46576.845805.877598@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 1, Stan Barr wrote: > I've been soldering now for around 45 years, and I used to do a lot > of bullet casting so I've handled a *lot* of lead in my time. > I was taken ill a few years ago with some symptons that could be > remotely explained by heavy metal poisoning so I was thoroughly tested. > My lead levels were right on the average for someone living in an > urban environment. So if you're sensible I don't see a problem. > Don't eat sandwiches while you're soldering...and wash your hands when > you're done ;-) Lead in gasoline (petrol over here) was a bigger > problem. What did those heavy metal teste involve, if you don't mind my asking? > Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. Oh, yuck, I didn't know that...I think I'll invest in one of those filtered blowers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:06:10 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 In-Reply-To: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 1, 2 02:20:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/a38c01d8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:21:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 1, 2 10:32:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/d848bf37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:55:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <200204011208.NAA28374@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Apr 1, 2 01:08:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/16bcef72/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 1 13:55:47 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > Adam Schiff, another congressman from California, is proposing > a similiar law. Adam has stated that he doesn't expect the law to > pass, but that its sole purpose is to gain leverage against the > high-tech industry regarding the copyright issue and in favor of > the entertainments industry. > In other words, they we'll all be sufficiently scared that > we'll finally > give up some ground in the copyright issue. What ground is left > to give up? They've already lengthened the terms of protection > when they should have been shortening them. What issue is there? If they don't like copyright as it was originally defined, fine. Abolish it. That's fair, and everyone's still on equal ground. :) None of this "insert exception [a] into loophole [b]" crap. Do I deserve extra protection because my work is easier to duplicate? I think not. > To my way of thinking, that constitutes abuse of process, and makes > Fritz Hollings and Adam Schiff not merely traitors, but > persona non grata. I think Mr. Schiff ought to be required to reimburse the government for the salaries (plus usage of buildings, etc) of all the people whose time he wastes with his bill. That ought to be enough to spend all the money that some companies are paying him for it, plus his own salary, and make him get a job at McDonalds to make ends meet. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:59:11 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 1, 2 01:04:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1201 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/e57df30e/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 1 14:00:46 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: Re: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) (Tony Duell) References: <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15528.48238.695413.263138@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 1, Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK, just about every colour TV has a SCART socket. This gives you > composite (PAL) colour (or monochrome, of course) and analogue RGB inputs > at TV scan rates. Hey, that is *cool*! > Is it really that hard to find a TV-rate monochrome monitor? Surely > they're still used for video applications. OK, you don't find them in the > local PC shop, but then you don't find much of use there. NTSC monitors are everywhere in the US...both CRT and LCD... -Dave -- Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 14:18:42 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02Apr1.153855est.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > > Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. > >Oh _great_. Still, it's a well-known fact that research causes cancer in >rats :-) I would imagine that with all the junk in the air now that unless you breathe flux vapors and other such things in large quantities that it really doesn't make a lot of difference. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 1 14:19:01 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BD0@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > IIRC, this discussion started when I pointed out that the > fact that the > QL was on one PCB didn't make it hard to do repairs -- just > solder in a > new chip. The QL is all pin-through-hole DIP chips, the type > that's the > easiest to repalce. And yet people still moaned about my comments... Well, if it makes you feel better, I agree. I certainly would solder a DIP if it became necessary. I have done similar things (the power supply connector on my DEC Multia mainboard, which is about the same spacing), even on new machines, with no problem. (Yes, the Multia works now) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Mon Apr 1 14:57:11 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <200204011208.NAA28374@citadel.metropolis.local> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020401155711.00ea2e60@pop1.epm.net.co> At 01:08 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote: >Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. >-- >Cheers, >Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com Darn! that too? Those fumes have a habit of condensing on my eyeglasses, so I am probably inhaling. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 16:06:37 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <200204011208.NAA28374@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Stan Barr wrote: > I've been soldering now for around 45 years, and I used to do a lot > of bullet casting so I've handled a *lot* of lead in my time. Yay!! Geeks With Guns!!! Actually, that's the unofficial designation of a local Linux SIG.... An amazing percentage of serious computer hobbyists seem to also like blowing stuff up. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 16:11:24 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day Message-ID: Y'all please excuse the blatantly off-topicness. But this one is Just Too Good. http://news.com.com/2100-1001-872266.html The M$ foot gets another dose of lead. Doc From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 1 16:14:32 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 01, 2002 01:55:47 PM Message-ID: <200204012214.RAA32275@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christopher Smith once stated: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > > > Adam Schiff, another congressman from California, is proposing > > a similiar law. Adam has stated that he doesn't expect the law to > > pass, but that its sole purpose is to gain leverage against the > > high-tech industry regarding the copyright issue and in favor of > > the entertainments industry. > > > In other words, they we'll all be sufficiently scared that > > we'll finally > > give up some ground in the copyright issue. What ground is left > > to give up? They've already lengthened the terms of protection > > when they should have been shortening them. > > What issue is there? If they don't like copyright as it was > originally defined, fine. Abolish it. That's fair, and everyone's > still on equal ground. :) Not quite so easy here in the States. From the Constitution of the United States, Article 1, Section 8: To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; From this derives copyright and patent law (even Fair Use is not defined in the Constitution---that comes from the 1976 Copyright Act when the common practice of fair use was put into law). To abolish copyright, you would need to amend the Constitution. For anyone wanting to abolish copyright it would behoove them study the results obtained in France after the French Revolution when copyright law was abolished. > I think Mr. Schiff ought to be required to reimburse the government > for the salaries (plus usage of buildings, etc) of all the people > whose time he wastes with his bill. That ought to be enough to spend > all the money that some companies are paying him for it, plus his own > salary, and make him get a job at McDonalds to make ends meet. I think you're being kind. -spc (He and the Honorable Hollings (cough) should be tossed out and not allowed to hold public office for at least 12 years ... ) From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 16:27:07 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Unix disk images and archiving In-Reply-To: <20020401143833.GA711849@uiuc.edu> References: <200203271826.AA21034@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> <20020401143833.GA711849@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: Well it worked....I changed the fstab file on the hard disk that I had copied NextStep 2.0 onto, off of the copy I had made to the Pinnacle MO, and it booted right up! I also put the '030 mainboard back into the 2nd Cube and booted it off of the NS 2.0 hard disk install and it worked as well. Even the NeXT 'Guided Tour' was kind of interesting. Now I'm off to start copying the other distro disks to the Pinnacle MO. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 16:35:39 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA62537.16607545@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20020401223539.47316.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > ...The board will be about 8" x 7" and $175 canadian for two > prototype boards. Wire wrap sockets/wire/protoboard would cost me $100... While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup costs and the per-sq-in costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or Unibus-sized 4-layer board, complete with gold fingers!), personally, my WW overhead isn't terrible: I rescued all the prototype hardware from my former employer when they went bust - I probably have three lifetimes worth of WW sockets. When I do a project, the only part I have to spend money on is the wire. My last project is a good case-study for expense vs. time. I wanted to replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space Ace. I tried to find one on ePay, but they only come up occasionally (every couple of months). I decided to build one. I started with a couple of digital pictures, a parts list and a schematic. Since the board was approx 6"x9", it would have been somewhat expensive for a commercially-made PCB. There are still plenty of surplus units out there that sell used for under $50 when they are available, so it would be cheaper to wait for a sale than to have a professional PCB created unless the new PCB added value somehow. I had the blue perfboard (from when the MicroCenter got rid of all of their prototyping hardware at 80% off list!), the wire and the discrete components. I had to purchase the LEDs ($0.65 each) and the driver chips (a few bucks each). Total out-of-pocket expense was <$25. I probably pulled about $15-$20-worth of supplies out of my parts bins. Construction took place over several evenings, watching the sci-fi channel, tacking down point-to-point connections (didn't have the vertical clearance for socketing the LEDs). I'm pleased that it worked the first time! - pictures at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ under the "LED Scoreboard" link. Mostly, it's pictures of the glow of the LEDs, but there's one out-of-focus, flash-burned picture of the perfboard and yellow wire in there (the Apple QT150 has about a 24" min focal distance without the strap-on lens). The upshot was that if this were being done for anyone but me personally, it would have been an economic disaster. Nobody would have paid me a reasonable amount for that much work - it would have been much cheaper to go to an arcade service company and *buy* a used scoreboard than spend 10+ hours wiring up a board. It would have been much cheaper than that to wait out the next wave of offerings on eBay (which I accidentally did - the project took so long to complete that I _did_ pick a real one up for around $30, after I was 95% finished with my replica. The good news is that it made a nice functional benchmark to prove that mine worked). So I chose to trade my time for semi-instant gratification. I would have loved to have done a PCB, but I chose not to spend the time with layout tape and a blank board, and I chose not to pay to register a demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" board. If I were to make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this whole thread, I'm not sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in small quantities, according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer boards) or I'd point-to-point it. In terms of $$$/hour, even $200 for a board set is cheap. In terms of a discretionary hobby, $200 is a lot to divert from other projects when I already _have_ a working PDP-8. With that kind of money, I could start trolling for a Qbus SCSI controller! Back to the initial topic, though, I'd love to get a good buy on a dozen or so spools of kynar-coated wire. I'd prefer an assortment of colors, but I'd take it in whatever I could get - yellow, red, white... Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have it for a few bucks a spool? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 16:39:53 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA61CB6.3070300@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20020401223953.75002.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> > Loboyko Steve wrote: > WW sockets are getting more expensive. I won't use > anything but machine tooled pin sockets, which are > even more expensive. Buf going nuts and wasting your > precious free time over a flaky socket is really, > really expensive. I, too, can recommend only going with machined-pin sockets; anything less isn't worth the hassle of trying to chase down phantom problems. This goes for soldered designs as well as WW. OTOH, it's an easy choice for me since I alread have several hundred/few thousand of them. I don't ever expect to actually *pay* for one, unless I need some kind of BGA or FPGA or other SMT adapter. For DIP stuff, I'm set for life! -ethan -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 1 16:41:27 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BD8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner [mailto:spc@conman.org] > > What issue is there? If they don't like copyright as it was > > originally defined, fine. Abolish it. That's fair, and everyone's > > still on equal ground. :) > Not quite so easy here in the States. From the > Constitution of the United > States, Article 1, Section 8: I was basically being sarcastic. The point being that it's ridiculous for them to make demands to the effect that copyright be extended into eternity, just as it would be for somebody to demand that it be abolished completely. Either way, the purpose of copyright is defeated. :) > > I think Mr. Schiff ought to be required to reimburse the government > > for the salaries (plus usage of buildings, etc) of all the people > > whose time he wastes with his bill. That ought to be > enough to spend > > all the money that some companies are paying him for it, > plus his own > > salary, and make him get a job at McDonalds to make ends meet. > I think you're being kind. Probably. > -spc (He and the Honorable Hollings (cough) should be > tossed out and > not allowed to hold public office for at least 12 years ... ) I imagine lifetime would be more appropriate. They've shown -- beyond any doubt, as far as I can see -- that they haven't got the character required to perform the duties which public office would require of them. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 16:52:16 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Unix disk images and archiving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Well it worked....I changed the fstab file on the hard disk > that I had copied NextStep 2.0 onto, off of the copy I had made to > the Pinnacle MO, and it booted right up! I also put the '030 > mainboard back into the 2nd Cube and booted it off of the NS 2.0 hard > disk install and it worked as well. Even the NeXT 'Guided Tour' was > kind of interesting. Now I'm off to start copying the other distro > disks to the Pinnacle MO. Most excellent! Congratulations. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 1 16:56:28 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <3CA7F092.3070808@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > How much lead does solder dor electronics contain? I thought only > solder for pipes contained lead? I think you have it backward. Solder for water pipes is supposed to be lead free (I believe there are strict laws regulating that). Solder for non-water pipes can still use lead based solders. Electronics solder can be one of many different alloys, most consisting of between 40% and 60% lead, the remaining component, tin. Generic solder sold for electronics today is usually a 60/40 (tin/lead) alloy. Most of the solder used in the 1960s was a 50/50 alloy. Surface mount and other exotic solder alloys made today also contain 2% to 5% silver. IIRC, the tin content is also bad for health. I too would be interested in knowing what the chemical content of the burning flux is. Of course, some of the solvents and cleaners also used for electronics work are probably worse than soldering. I do remember having muscle cramps in my fingers when my workload of soldering work would decrease. I tended to blame muscle conditioning, but now I think it may have been all the lead/tin I was handling. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 1 16:59:53 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Yes, I think your right. Still, I didn't realize that it contained such > > a high percentage of lead. Me thinks, I'll be more carefull while > > handleing it in the future. Lead is absorbed through the skin if I'm > > not mistaken. > > Even handling cool boards, pricking yourself with solder points, can be > dangerous, if you do it enough. The "light touch" when handling such boards is learned by experience ;) I imagine most anyone who has learned how to sort though a box of computer boards without injury knows exactly what I'm talking about... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 1 17:05:57 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <15528.46576.845805.877598@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh, yuck, I didn't know that...I think I'll invest in one of those > filtered blowers. A surplus 120VAC muffin fan (with finger guards!) blowing away from the work area is an inexpensive solution for those that can't afford a fume extractor. -Toth From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 17:07:36 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: "New" PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <20020330180112.21387.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020401230736.94866.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Loboyko Steve wrote: > ...A drag about the DECmate board was that its a multilayer > board, and in spite of my best desoldering efforts, > the chips are trimmed short and you can't really use > many parts from it other than the socketed BTS6120 and > a few EPROMS. What else would be "useful" from a DECmate board? I agree about the difficulty of removing chips from multi-layer boards. Depending on the exact nature of the power/ground pins/planes, it can take a lot of heat to remove the chips. Usually, you pick either the chip or the board as what you want to survive and you sacrifice one for the other (it's possible to do both, but it's a *lot* more work, and sometimes you still ruin one or the other or both). I recently pulled a custom 20-pin DEC chip from a DWBUA to install in another DWBUA in an attempt to get one working board. First, I had to remove the dead chip from the recipient board - that took 30 minutes to get the power/ground pins out and the thru-holes clean; then I had to remove the chip from the other board without destroying the chip - another 30 minutes. It's easier with the "right" tools... all I had was a Weller temp-controlled soldering station, solder, solder wick and a solder sucker. With about a $500 desoldering station, it probably would have taken under 10 minutes. But, again, I'm curious what you would save from the DM board if you could. Personally, if I ever build Bob's design, I'll probably crack open a DM (I have one I, one II and one III) and borrow the CPU chip. EPROMs I have aplenty, as well as PALs, GALs and TTL "popcorn" parts. I can't imagine what I'd want to pull from the donor system except for the CPU chip itself. That way, I could put it back anytime I wished. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 17:08:25 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BD8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BD8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: >I was basically being sarcastic. The point being that it's ridiculous >for them to make demands to the effect that copyright be extended into >eternity, just as it would be for somebody to demand that it be >abolished completely. Either way, the purpose of copyright is defeated. Have to love that Disney, one of the ones constantly pushing to have it's characters protected for longer and longer periods, has also been one to make quite a bit of money off of other's work that has fallen into the public domain, such as Tom Sawyer and others. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 1 17:14:23 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020401181423.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> This idiodic bill bill sounds like a sure fire way to kill the electronics industry in the US. I wonder who Fritz Hollings really works for, the Taliban? In any event, it will NEVER happen in the US, we already smuggle in huge quantities of drugs, guns, booze, parrots and everything else that the US government attempts to ban so I guess we may have to add computers to the list next. joe At 11:52 AM 3/29/02 -0500, you wrote: >The End of Classic Computing, and in fact, the end >of Computing as a hobby for almost all of us, is on >the table in the U.S. Congress in the form of The >Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion >Act (CBDTPA). This insidious bill would strike at >the very heart of this community, the software that >keeps our ClassicComputers running, unless we or >someone incorporates anti-pirating measures. > >Now, if that sounded inflammatory, it should. It's >not quite accurate either. The bill will cover only >software created from the time of the bill's passage >and on into the future. The stuff we play with now >would therefore be exempt. > >There appears to be a loophole for stuff you do that >you never distribute. There also appears to be a loophole >for computers that do not contain microprocessors. > >But there would be a horizon coming soon. If the bill >is passed, computers and software being developed now, >once 10 years old, might be on-topic, but you'd be >breaking federal law to share software. > >Sponsored by someone who must surely be certifiably >insane, one Senator Fritz Hollings of South Carolina, >if you want more information, see: > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51274,00.html > >This will require lots of work to defeat, I think, as >the politicians have bought into the fantasy that a >pirated copy of something conctitutes a lost sale. > >A true emperor's fine new clothes scneario... > >Regards, >-dq > >-- >-Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (dougq@iglou.com) [Call me "Doug"] >"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 17:09:55 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020401155711.00ea2e60@pop1.epm.net.co> Message-ID: <20020401230955.95240.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 01:08 PM 4/1/02 +0100, you wrote: > >Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. > > Darn! that too? Those fumes have a habit of condensing on my > eyeglasses, so I am probably inhaling. Maybe you should take soldering lessons from Bill Clinton? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 17:15:28 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <20020401223953.75002.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 1, 2 02:39:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/5da751a0/attachment.ksh From broth at heathers.stdio.com Mon Apr 1 18:18:35 2002 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:50 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password Message-ID: <20020401231948.7224827F4A8@mail.wzrd.com> I snagged a PDP11/53 and Two MicroVAX II's today at the salvage yard. $5 a piece. Doesn't happen very often but feels good when it does. The MV's have Ultrix on them and boot fine BUT..... Is there an easy way to bust the root password for Ultrix on the console? Thanks, Brian. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 1 17:21:54 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <20020401223539.47316.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have it for a few bucks > a spool? I've got a lead on teflon insulated #24 wire. It's a silver plated solid copper wire with black teflon insulation on 100ft spools. IIRC, the date of manufacture was in the 1960s. The stuff is a bitch to strip, but you can't melt it with a soldering iron ;) If anyone needs some of this stuff, let me know and I'll pick it up. I have a few spools, but I could get another 50 or 60 spools if the shop still has them. -Toth From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 1 17:34:25 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: "New" PDP-8 Message-ID: <005601c1d9d7$12922c10$7ded9a8d@ajp166> From: Ethan Dicks >What else would be "useful" from a DECmate board? I agree about Depends on if it's a DMII or DMIII. The dmII had less integration so the 6120, eproms and likely a 6121 plus UARTs are available. The DMIII it will be the 6120 and maybe a 6121 plus 2882 and the eproms, though I'm less sure as it's been a long time since I've had to open one. Allison From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 17:44:10 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <000501c1d9d7$23569f40$55efffcc@Shadow> > This idiodic bill bill sounds like a sure fire way to > kill the electronics industry in the US. I wonder who Fritz > Hollings really works for, the Taliban? In any event, it > will NEVER happen in the US, we already smuggle in huge > quantities of drugs, gun s, booze, parrots and everything > else that the US government attempts to ban so I guess we may > have to add computers to the list next. Doc's response seems to be typical- it sounds so outrageous that there's no way it could happen. However, I nonetheless urge everyone to write their U.S. representative and Senator and inform them that this and any similar legislation is unacceptable to you. In order to keep your message short, I suggest that you not elucidate the many reasons why it's bad, but instead offer to do so in a follow-up correspondance. Regards, -doug q From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 17:52:52 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <000b01c1d9d8$5a0eb080$55efffcc@Shadow> > > > Loboyko Steve wrote: > > > WW sockets are getting more expensive. I won't use > > > anything but machine tooled pin sockets, which are > > > even more expensive. Buf going nuts and wasting your > > > precious free time over a flaky socket is really, > > > really expensive. > > > > I, too, can recommend only going with machined-pin sockets; anything less > > isn't worth the hassle of trying to chase down phantom problems. This > > goes for soldered designs as well as WW. > > I'll 'third' it... > > I will use nothing but turned-pin sockets (that's what they're called in > the UK) now. I once spent most of a day tracking down a fault that was > caused by a flaky contact on a folded-metal type of socket. Never again. > I've got more enjoyable things to do... Speaking of machined parts versus something else... Anyone notice how commodity PCs have screws that have clearly been *cast* onstead of *turned/Machined*? Everytime you thread one into a hole, you generate a nice supply of metal shavings. Not good. To get back on topic, when did this trend start? The IBM PC, PC/XT, and PC/AT used machined/turned fasteners. Lots of classic non-consumer hardware used various "captive mechanisms" instead of plain old screws and bolts. And how about sharp edges inside a chassis? Older hardware tends to have spent a little time in the hands of a whitesmith, who added lots of finishing detail like smooth edges that don't cut. -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 1 17:55:25 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) References: <20020401223539.47316.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CA8F36D.8FBE1623@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup costs and the per-sq-in > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or Unibus-sized 4-layer board, > complete with gold fingers!), personally, my WW overhead isn't terrible: > I rescued all the prototype hardware from my former employer when they > went bust - I probably have three lifetimes worth of WW sockets. When > I do a project, the only part I have to spend money on is the wire. Out here the only parts store is Radio Shack or wait 6 months to get to a larger city. Thus mail order and internet shopping works for me. With wire wrap I would spend too much time hunting for bad wires/connections or paying $$$ for parts. A PCB is a simple upload of my gerber and drill files. > My last project is a good case-study for expense vs. time. I wanted to > replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space Ace. I tried to find > one on ePay, but they only come up occasionally (every couple of months). > I decided to build one. I started with a couple of digital pictures, > a parts list and a schematic. Since the board was approx 6"x9", it > would have been somewhat expensive for a commercially-made PCB. There > are still plenty of surplus units out there that sell used for under $50 > when they are available, so it would be cheaper to wait for a sale than > to have a professional PCB created unless the new PCB added value somehow. > > I had the blue perfboard (from when the MicroCenter got rid of all of their > prototyping hardware at 80% off list!), the wire and the discrete > components. I had to purchase the LEDs ($0.65 each) and the driver chips > (a few bucks each). Total out-of-pocket expense was <$25. I probably > pulled about $15-$20-worth of supplies out of my parts bins. > > Construction took place over several evenings, watching the sci-fi channel, > tacking down point-to-point connections (didn't have the vertical > clearance for socketing the LEDs). I'm pleased that it worked the first > time! - pictures at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ > under the "LED Scoreboard" link. Mostly, it's pictures of the glow of > the LEDs, but there's one out-of-focus, flash-burned picture of the > perfboard and yellow wire in there (the Apple QT150 has about a 24" min > focal distance without the strap-on lens). nice (see ps at bottom) > The upshot was that if this were being done for anyone but me personally, > it would have been an economic disaster. Nobody would have paid me a > reasonable amount for that much work - it would have been much cheaper > to go to an arcade service company and *buy* a used scoreboard than spend > 10+ hours wiring up a board. It would have been much cheaper than that > to wait out the next wave of offerings on eBay (which I accidentally did - > the project took so long to complete that I _did_ pick a real one up for > around $30, after I was 95% finished with my replica. The good news is > that it made a nice functional benchmark to prove that mine worked). > > So I chose to trade my time for semi-instant gratification. I would > have loved to have done a PCB, but I chose not to spend the time with > layout tape and a blank board, and I chose not to pay to register a > demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" board. More like 3" x 4". Easytrax (dos) is still out there and runs fine (and free) if you don't need autorouting. > If I were to > make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this whole thread, I'm not > sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in small quantities, > according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer boards) or I'd > point-to-point it. Is 4 layer boards really needed? I like the PDP-8 but am unhappy that a 12/24 cpu never hit the monolithic chip market. Now with a FPGA I have a cpu design that is a 'what if' computer that really could have replaced the IBM PC at that time. ( Early 1980's ) > In terms of $$$/hour, even $200 for a board set > is cheap. In terms of a discretionary hobby, $200 is a lot to divert > from other projects when I already _have_ a working PDP-8. With that > kind of money, I could start trolling for a Qbus SCSI controller! Well I don't but remember with out the proper I/O a pdp-8 is NO FUN. While I can run a emulator 100x of times faster than the real thing it is not the same with out a TTY chugging away on paper tape. > Back to the initial topic, though, I'd love to get a good buy on a dozen or > so spools of kynar-coated wire. I'd prefer an assortment of colors, but > I'd take it in whatever I could get - yellow, red, white... > > Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have it for a few bucks > a spool? While B.G.Micro does NOT have wire wrap wire it does have a few interesting odds and ends and some of the more older chips out like 16k dram/floppy disk controlers/8 bit cpu's. www.bgmicro.com PS. Just after I finished writing this I looked up the scoreboard and noticed you use BG micro already. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 1 17:52:39 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password Message-ID: <006701c1d9d9$2d797630$7ded9a8d@ajp166> From: Brian Roth >The MV's have Ultrix on them and boot fine BUT..... > > >Is there an easy way to bust the root password for Ultrix on the console? Yes. Boot to non-timesharing then use ED (sorry no other choice usually) to edit passwd file. set the Root user password to NULL (no characters). boot to timeshare level and then log in as root with no password. My ultrix manuals are burried or I'd give more detail. Allison From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 1 13:33:55 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <000b01c1d9d8$5a0eb080$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <20020402003216.BBNS21410.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Speaking of machined parts versus something else... > > Anyone notice how commodity PCs have screws that have clearly > been *cast* onstead of *turned/Machined*? Everytime you thread > one into a hole, you generate a nice supply of metal shavings. > > Not good. Just bad bag of that screws. Toss it and buy bag of decent screws. If find a peecee screw that is still chewing or "seizing up" touch bit of oil to the thread. Fixed for good. This happens because of poor lubing or nothing or low quality steel in production of those crappy fasteners. Those that makes shavings is because of cracks in the thread tips. Almost all screws, bolts are smashed on one end of cut rods to make heads slots, philips, hex, torx etc, rolled in thread dies to form threads. Very few uses true machined fasteners. Quality smooshed on heads and rolled fasteners are *stronger* because of compressed grain. Machining process cuts into this grain and introduces crack stress beause of too sharp corners. I know because machined fasteners were used frequently in clocks and watches. Yes I did break machined screws for any reason not just from over-tightening. Machined are very sharp corners, ground-look. Rolled and squished heads looks well that, smooth or dull and look at ends of these fasteners is convex. > To get back on topic, when did this trend start? The IBM PC, > PC/XT, and PC/AT used machined/turned fasteners. Lots of classic > non-consumer hardware used various "captive mechanisms" instead > of plain old screws and bolts. Actually not. IBM used mass-produced rolled screws of good quality and early machines did use mass-produced fasteners that were good quality. > And how about sharp edges inside a chassis? Older hardware tends > to have spent a little time in the hands of a whitesmith, who > added lots of finishing detail like smooth edges that don't cut. > > -dq Yes, *can* still buy decent peecee cases made with rolled edges. Acer is one, Antec is another so on. Aluminum cases is making slow coming back. I know classic 'puters were made in large numbers with aluminum cases early days. Cheers, Wizard From davebarnes at adelphia.net Mon Apr 1 18:37:13 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password References: <20020401231948.7224827F4A8@mail.wzrd.com> Message-ID: <3CA8FD39.E2D93BDD@adelphia.net> yes and no... depends upon what version is installed... do you know what ver it is.. ?? Brian Roth wrote: > I snagged a PDP11/53 and Two MicroVAX II's today at the salvage yard. $5 a > piece. Doesn't happen very often but feels good when it does. > > The MV's have Ultrix on them and boot fine BUT..... > > Is there an easy way to bust the root password for Ultrix on the console? > > Thanks, > Brian. -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 18:52:14 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <000501c1d9d7$23569f40$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Doc's response seems to be typical- it sounds so outrageous > that there's no way it could happen. Excuse me? My response was that if we don't mobilize en masse, and quickly, it _will_ happen. The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to target. Most have been people like Dmitri Slyarov, who simply dared to speak out, and to demonstrate that ownership of an idea is moot. The Uniform Computer Information Transaction Act - UCITA bill - is even more ludicrous, and is now law in two states. A roaring grass-roots campaign against UCITA was credited with stopping it in Texas. All three bills, proposed or passed, have in common that they are unenforceable, that they target and penalize the consumer in favor of specialized corporate interests, that they are blatantly unconstitutional in spirit if not in their letters, and that most of their opponents do not take them seriously enough to act. The other thing these bills all have in common is that the special interest groups who buy their introduction into our legislative system will continue to pay for their reintroduction until their puppets are censured in a way that matters. In cash, and in criminal prosecution. Douglas, I expect that the mis-attribution was a benign mistake, so I want to make it clear that I'm not jumping down your throat. But I WILL NOT be misunderstood in this. The very possibility of a travesty like the CBDTPA becoming the law of the land is my worst nightmare come to life. It has nothing to do with my computers, my music recordings, or my movies. It has everything to do with the idea that any coalition with enough cash and lawyers can today buy any oppression of the people that they desire, with impunity, and without any need to even disguise their actions. The contemplation of that truth literally moves me to tears, and to a despair that borders on rage. Doc From geoff at pkworks.com Mon Apr 1 19:10:04 2002 From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: IBM 1620 Message-ID: <001e01c1d9e3$200e5ba0$1277f4d0@dialup> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin Johnston To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 01, 2002 5:38 PM Subject: IBM 1620 > >Take a look at Yahoo vintage auctions to find the "IBM 1620 CENTRAL >PROCESSING UNIT, MANUAL 1964" at >http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/63778516?aucview=0x10 > >The current price with no bidders is $3.50. Gee, thanks for the spam. Save your money and download it for free from: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/ibm/A26-4500-2_1620ref_Jul61.pdf From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 19:02:41 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <000b01c1d9d8$5a0eb080$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > And how about sharp edges inside a chassis? Older hardware tends > to have spent a little time in the hands of a whitesmith, who > added lots of finishing detail like smooth edges that don't cut. You can still buy such chassis, probably as relatively cheaply as you did then. Fry's Electronics, MicroChip computers, and a couple of other vendors here sell stainless or aluminum (and now aluminum/plexiglass) cases that are beautiful, and beautifully finished, to the tune of $300 to $500 US. That's without PSU. I would really love to have several. Or, conversely, I used the drive cages and rear bulkhead from an XT case to design and have built a walnut case for a client a couple of years ago. Complete with 1/8" veneers for the CD-ROM bezel, tray, and button. Used a "faceless" floppy out of a Compaq. That may have been the quietest PC I ever worked on. Doc From root at diablonet.net Mon Apr 1 19:12:31 2002 From: root at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills Message-ID: <3CA90562.445FC7E2@diablonet.net> Hi there! I've been following the thread kind of loosely on the digest, and although I really have no way of knowing how much time you're spending around a soldering iron, I would strongly guess that you have nothing to worry about from even relatively frequent soldering as long as you're not doing something wierd like soldering in a small closet with the door closed for hours on end every day or melting down spools and huffing them... :) Solder's been around for quite a while, and I'm sure if there was some sort of real health risk, it would have been common knowledge by now. I know tons of people including my father, uncles, and old co-workers who have spent, cumulatively, months and months behind soldering irons in labs and shops, and I believe they are all still entirely sane! Kind regards, Sean -- Sean Caron http://www.diablonet.net scaron@engin.umich.edu root@diablonet.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 1 19:30:38 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills In-Reply-To: <3CA90562.445FC7E2@diablonet.net> Message-ID: Today: > Solder's been around for quite a while, and I'm sure if there was > some sort of real health risk, it would have been common knowledge > by now. 1960: "Asbestos been around for quite a while, and I'm sure if there was some sort of real health risk, it would have been common knowledge by now." From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 1 19:48:26 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills In-Reply-To: Re: Soldering and other skills (Sean Caron) References: <3CA90562.445FC7E2@diablonet.net> Message-ID: <15529.3562.45766.695729@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 1, Sean Caron wrote: > I've been following the thread kind of loosely on the digest, and > although I really have no way of knowing how much time you're > spending around a soldering iron, I would strongly guess that you > have nothing to worry about from even relatively frequent soldering > as long as you're not doing something wierd like soldering in a > small closet with the door closed for hours on end every day or > melting down spools and huffing them... :) You mean that's not safe? Uh-oh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 19:48:48 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: "Re: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <001601c1d9e8$95506ac0$55efffcc@Shadow> > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > Doc's response seems to be typical- it sounds so outrageous > > that there's no way it could happen. > > Excuse me? My response was that if we don't mobilize en masse, and > quickly, it _will_ happen. Doc, I have a fever, and the unsend key isn't working. Sorry! It was Joe Rigdon's comment to which I was replying... > The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now > Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case > has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to > target. Most have been people like Dmitri Slyarov, who simply dared to > speak out, and to demonstrate that ownership of an idea is moot. Agreed... now if they'd grabbed Martha Stewart, there'd be some action. > The Uniform Computer Information Transaction Act - UCITA bill - is > even more ludicrous, and is now law in two states. A roaring > grass-roots campaign against UCITA was credited with stopping it in > Texas. Whew! > All three bills, proposed or passed, have in common that they are > unenforceable, that they target and penalize the consumer in favor of > specialized corporate interests, that they are blatantly > unconstitutional in spirit if not in their letters, and that most of > their opponents do not take them seriously enough to act. > > The other thing these bills all have in common is that the special > interest groups who buy their introduction into our legislative system > will continue to pay for their reintroduction until their puppets are > censured in a way that matters. In cash, and in criminal prosecution. Around here, we'd tar, feather, then run them out of town on a rail. > Douglas, I expect that the mis-attribution was a benign mistake, so I > want to make it clear that I'm not jumping down your throat. Ok! But I wasn't putting Joe down, either... only pointing out that we're preachin' to the choir here, folks... > But I WILL NOT be misunderstood in this. The very possibility of a > travesty like the CBDTPA becoming the law of the land is my worst > nightmare come to life. It has nothing to do with my computers, > my music recordings, or my movies. It has everything to do with the > idea that any coalition with enough cash and lawyers can today buy > any oppression of the people that they desire, with impunity, and > without any need to even disguise their actions. This is the Tyranny of the Majority that Publius warned us of. Again, sorry, I spent too much time in the mold den this weekend recovering old moldy Prime manuals. That deadly black mold you hear about... -dq From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 1 19:51:00 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: IBM 1620 References: <001e01c1d9e3$200e5ba0$1277f4d0@dialup> Message-ID: <3CA90E84.B0CB96E8@rain.org> "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: > > > > >Take a look at Yahoo vintage auctions to find the "IBM 1620 CENTRAL > >PROCESSING UNIT, MANUAL 1964" at > >http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/63778516?aucview=0x10 > > > >The current price with no bidders is $3.50. > > Gee, thanks for the spam. Save your money and download it for free > from: > > http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/ibm/A26-4500-2_1620ref_Jul61.pdf Take your flame bait elsewhere, sheesh. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Apr 1 19:52:05 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills In-Reply-To: References: <3CA90562.445FC7E2@diablonet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020401205205.0136f420@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >Today: >> Solder's been around for quite a while, and I'm sure if there was >> some sort of real health risk, it would have been common knowledge >> by now. My grandfather and I had discussed this about 7-8 years ago (before the heart attack & stroke that left him wheelchair bound) and we were discussing soldering, the dangers of lead, and whatnot, and he said something very similar: "I've been soldering my whole life, and it hasn't affected me one bit." To which I simply replied: "How do you know, grandpa?" He said "I feel fine, and I'm in pretty good shape for being [insert age here... don't remember exactly how old he was, but was right close to if not 80 years]." Where I countered: "One of the symptoms of long-term lead poisoning is short-term memory loss... and you've admitted that your short-term memory isn't what it used to be. How do you *know* that it isn't the lifetime of soldering & being around lead that hasn't caused it?" All I heard was: "Hrmmmph... Hmmmm... You know you're right? I never thought of it like that." >1960: >"Asbestos been around for quite a while, and I'm sure if there was >some sort of real health risk, it would have been common knowledge >by now." ... or DDT, or PCB, or... Granted, in another 20 years they'll probably prove *broccoli* can give you cancer... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Mon Apr 1 20:55:28 2002 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: <006701c1d9d9$2d797630$7ded9a8d@ajp166> References: <006701c1d9d9$2d797630$7ded9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20020402015713.6E0A927ED0E@mail.wzrd.com> That did the trick..... Thank you for all that responded. Brian. On Monday 01 April 2002 06:52 pm, you wrote: > From: Brian Roth > > >The MV's have Ultrix on them and boot fine BUT..... > > > > > >Is there an easy way to bust the root password for Ultrix on the > > console? > > > Yes. > > Boot to non-timesharing then use ED (sorry no other choice usually) > to edit passwd file. set the Root user password to NULL (no characters). > boot to timeshare level and then log in as root with no password. > > My ultrix manuals are burried or I'd give more detail. > > Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Apr 1 21:52:48 2002 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <20020401.195249.-333301.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 18:52:52 -0500 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" writes: >> Anyone notice how commodity PCs have screws that have clearly > been *cast* onstead of *turned/Machined*? Everytime you thread > one into a hole, you generate a nice supply of metal shavings. > > Not good. > > To get back on topic, when did this trend start? The IBM PC, > PC/XT, and PC/AT used machined/turned fasteners. Lots of classic > non-consumer hardware used various "captive mechanisms" instead > of plain old screws and bolts. > > And how about sharp edges inside a chassis? Older hardware tends > to have spent a little time in the hands of a whitesmith, who > added lots of finishing detail like smooth edges that don't cut. I think this started when we (the U.S.A.) began importing parts made in communist countries. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 20:14:26 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020401205205.0136f420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Granted, in another 20 years they'll probably prove *broccoli* can give you > cancer... ;-) One can only hope. Doc From alexander.schreiber at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de Mon Apr 1 20:18:57 2002 From: alexander.schreiber at informatik.tu-chemnitz.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <000b01c1d9d8$5a0eb080$55efffcc@Shadow> References: <000b01c1d9d8$5a0eb080$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <20020402021857.GA650@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 06:52:52PM -0500, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > Anyone notice how commodity PCs have screws that have clearly > been *cast* onstead of *turned/Machined*? Everytime you thread > one into a hole, you generate a nice supply of metal shavings. First rule: don't purchase cheap crap. Yes, you can get a x86 computer real cheap - but you get what you pay for. Look around, aim for quality and be prepared to shell out slighly more cash and you still can get rather good hardware. > Not good. ACK. > To get back on topic, when did this trend start? The IBM PC, > PC/XT, and PC/AT used machined/turned fasteners. Lots of classic > non-consumer hardware used various "captive mechanisms" instead > of plain old screws and bolts. Simple: market forces. Most customers want _really_ cheap stuff. After all the "fat" has been cut, the only way to reduce prices further is cutting back the quality. Most customers - looking only at the price tag are happy with this and don't understand why this is Bad (TM). Yet they still complain when (and if) the find out what crap they bought. There is an old japanese proverb: "I don't have enough money to purchase cheap things" - probably based on the fact that he who purchased cheap crap spends at least twice as much money - first for the cheap crap and then for some quality goods. > And how about sharp edges inside a chassis? Older hardware tends > to have spent a little time in the hands of a whitesmith, who > added lots of finishing detail like smooth edges that don't cut. You can get good cases for PC hardware - you just have to ask for the right manufacturer. I'm the happy owner of a Chieftec Miditower case and it's a pretty good one: _no_ sharp edges (all rounded out), comes pre-equipped for additional fans (just clip in the 80x80 cm fan), rail kits for the 5.25" drive bays ... very well thought out case. Rather heavy, even when empty - but it's a solid piece of work, not one of those flimsy, sharp-edged crap cases you get with the usual cheap deals. I found the price of a good, top-of-the-line X86 box to be decreasing only rather slowly over the years. It started for me with $3000 in 1994 and is now at approximately $2000. Yes, this is a SCSI-only system, normal, simple workstation configuration - nothing fancy (like special graphic cards for CAD), excluding the monitor (hand over another $1000). But I got 4 years of use out of my previous workstation machine (now doing duty as a systems testbed machine) - and the current one is intended to last quite some time too. Regards, Alex. -- We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom be better served if we killed them instead? -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 20:25:42 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: "Re: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <001601c1d9e8$95506ac0$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Doc, I have a fever, and the unsend key isn't working. Sorry! No problem. It wasn't really your comment that I take personally, it's the whole issue. If you'll debug that unsend key, I'll market it, and we'll both be able to buy our _own_ damn senators. > Again, sorry, I spent too much time in the mold den this weekend > recovering old moldy Prime manuals. That deadly black mold you > hear about... Argh. My granny says that eating a lot of parsley helps. That black mold is why we moved last October. I ate a lot of parsley, and I do think it helped keep my lungs freed up. Of course, YMMV. Doc From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 20:42:11 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <001c01c1d9f0$0addc8d0$55efffcc@Shadow> > > Anyone notice how commodity PCs have screws that have clearly > > been *cast* onstead of *turned/Machined*? Everytime you thread > > one into a hole, you generate a nice supply of metal shavings. > > > > Not good. > > Just bad bag of that screws. Toss it and buy bag of decent screws. I should have been more specific... the screws to which I am referring are those commonly provided for securing the cards in their slots. And they shed metal not only from the screw but from the rear of the chassis they thread into. In fact, everytime you insert one of these, it has a 50% chance of rethreading the hole. Look at them carefully... they have a noticable taper. That's *one* way to encourage them to stay put. -dq From vaxman at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 20:47:52 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: <20020401231948.7224827F4A8@mail.wzrd.com> Message-ID: Easiest way is to attach the drive to a comparable machine running a Ultrix that you know the password too. Mount it, edit /etc/passwd, umount it, and re-install. You can edit the raw sector containing the root password using console commands, then write it back out if you can fake MSCP... Or maybe B/1 DUA0 will work... It depends if the version of Ultrix is old enough to allow root boot without password prompt or not... Clint On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Brian Roth wrote: > > I snagged a PDP11/53 and Two MicroVAX II's today at the salvage yard. $5 a > piece. Doesn't happen very often but feels good when it does. > > The MV's have Ultrix on them and boot fine BUT..... > > > Is there an easy way to bust the root password for Ultrix on the console? > > Thanks, > Brian. > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Apr 1 21:08:46 2002 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BCA@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CA920BE.4090302@cnonline.net> Is there a simple boilerplate message I can send to my congress critters (not that it will do any good with Ms Fienstein or Boxer) to lodge my protest. I am against piracy, I think Napster has brought all this down upon us because of the few who refuse to see it for what it was, theft. I hope that, if this passes into law, Linux can get the copyright cop software included and get registered.... Oh, I suppose since I can re-compile Linux any time I want and can change the code however I like Linux will **never** get the stamp of government approval... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 1 21:23:19 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: <001c01c1d9f0$0addc8d0$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3CA92427.82E32C66@jetnet.ab.ca> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > In fact, everytime you insert one of these, it has a 50% > chance of rethreading the hole. > > Look at them carefully... they have a noticable taper. > > That's *one* way to encourage them to stay put. The real crime is the quality of duct tape is going down. :) Mind you with most of the new PC's you really don't have much new in accessory cards. Most I/O is now USB and video/Hard disks/CD-rom are all internal now. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Apr 1 21:25:56 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: What editions of the VAX Hardware Reference are there? Message-ID: <3CA924C4.80904@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I am looking for VAX Hardware Reference for the VAX 11/780, 11/785, 86x0, the uVAX-II, and then the VAX 6000s. I suspect that's not all in one book. But, what revisions of the Hardware Reference are there anyway? I think the first edition is the 1978/1979, at least my VAX Architecture Handbook bears this date. I understand that the "Handbooks" were a 3-volume series, with volume 1 Architecture, vol 2 Harware and vol 3 Software (VMS). I assume that they threw out old models in more recent editions, right? Could we reconstruct which topics are described in which edition of the Hardware Handbook? One can't buy those any more, how does that influence the right to compile and share copies? I wonder if one could archive the Hardware handbooks by subject and that way compile a single volume with complete coverage of all VAXen. Besides, there is a mystical "Perepherial Handbook" to which I have seen reference once, but never any copy in bookstores, catalogues or on eBay. Did it ever exist? Was it volume 4 of the series? What items were covered over the years in there? regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 1 21:31:20 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <00b501c1d9f7$c83831c0$7ded9a8d@ajp166> As someone that runs a P166 on an ASUS board in a higher end case that can hold and run 3 RX56s{5.25" full height} and not melt, I would say better gives better. FYI: it's a 24/7 box that I rely on to work and it does quite well with NT4. Good PCs can be built but, you do have to work at it. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 21:45:57 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3CA920BE.4090302@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Is there a simple boilerplate message I can send to my > congress critters (not that it will do any good with > Ms Fienstein or Boxer) to lodge my protest. http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html and for a more general response to this type of legislation: http://www.digitalconsumer.org/fax.html > I hope that, if this passes into law, Linux can get the > copyright cop software included and get registered.... > > Oh, I suppose since I can re-compile Linux any time I want > and can change the code however I like Linux will **never** > get the stamp of government approval... For a lot of reasons, both technical and corporate/political, Linux and _all_ Free (as in Software, not Beer) code is going to be very hard-hit. Leahy effectively killed this incarnation of the CBDTPA last week: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51425,00.html but Hollings and cohorts already have clones in the works. Won't hurt to voice your views anyway. Doc From torquil at rockbridge.net Mon Apr 1 22:04:22 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <074c01c1d9fb$8178c980$0200a8c0@tm2000> What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? From groovelists at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 22:16:37 2002 From: groovelists at yahoo.com (Andy Berg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <074c01c1d9fb$8178c980$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: <20020402041637.67547.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Hi! :) Old-computers.com has a list they made at : http://www.old-computers.com/museum/year.asp?y=1986 The list seems at least somewhat accurate - pasted in the names they have listed there, am sure there are a lot more. :) CPC-5512 Amstrad PC 1512 Amstrad PC 1640 Amstrad APPLE IIGS Apple MACINTOSH PLUS Apple 520 / 1040 STF Atari AGAT 9 Elorg EXELTEL Exelvision FM 77 AV 20 Fujitsu FM 77 AV 40 Fujitsu PC XT 286 IBM TELESTRAT Oric KC 85/3 Robotron KC 87 Robotron X1 TURBO III Sharp X1 TURBO Z Sharp ZX SPECTRUM +2 Sinclair HIT-BIT F500 Sony SVI 738 - XPRESS Spectravideo COLOR COMPUTER 3 Tandy Radio Shack MO 6 Thomson TO 8 - TO 8D Thomson TO 9 PLUS Thomson HTH! :) Andy --- Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > What are some good old computers manufactured in > 1986? > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From vaxman at earthlink.net Mon Apr 1 22:19:07 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: What editions of the VAX Hardware Reference are there? In-Reply-To: <3CA924C4.80904@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Hi Gunther, I have: 1978-79 VAX11/780 Hardware Handbook (310 pages) covers VAX 11/780 1982-83 VAX Hardware Handbook (540 pages) covers VAX 11/730, VAX 11/750, VAX 11/780 1988 VAX Systems Hardware Handbook - UNIBUS Systems (~400 pages) covers VAX 11/725, VAX 11/730, VAX 11/750, VAX 11/780, VAX 11/782 VAX 11/785, VAX 8600 and VAX 8650 1988 VAX Systems Hardware Handbook - VAXBI Systems (~150 pages) covers 8200/8250, 8300/8350, 6200, 8500, 8530, 8550, 8700, 8800 8974, 8978 1988 VAXBI Options Handbook (~150 pages) covers VAXBI, CIBCA, DB88, DMB32,DWBUA, KA820/KA825, KDB50, KLESI-B, MS820, DEBNA, DRB32, DHB32, KBTFA, DWMBA, TBK50, KA800, MS800-EA clint On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for VAX Hardware Reference for the VAX 11/780, 11/785, > 86x0, the uVAX-II, and then the VAX 6000s. I suspect that's not all > in one book. But, what revisions of the Hardware Reference are there > anyway? I think the first edition is the 1978/1979, at least my > VAX Architecture Handbook bears this date. I understand that the > "Handbooks" were a 3-volume series, with volume 1 Architecture, > vol 2 Harware and vol 3 Software (VMS). I assume that they threw > out old models in more recent editions, right? Could we reconstruct > which topics are described in which edition of the Hardware Handbook? > > One can't buy those any more, how does that influence the right to > compile and share copies? I wonder if one could archive the > Hardware handbooks by subject and that way compile a single volume > with complete coverage of all VAXen. > > Besides, there is a mystical "Perepherial Handbook" to which I have > seen reference once, but never any copy in bookstores, catalogues or > on eBay. Did it ever exist? Was it volume 4 of the series? What > items were covered over the years in there? > > regards, > -Gunther > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 1 22:21:27 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: from "Torquil MacCorkle III" at Apr 01, 2002 11:04:22 PM Message-ID: <200204020421.g324LRY20571@shell1.aracnet.com> > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? Well, since I don't think DEC was still making PDP-10's at that point, that means you're limited to various PDP-11's, VAXen, and the Macintosh. Zane From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 22:23:03 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) Message-ID: <003801c1d9fe$18727780$55efffcc@Shadow> Now that my Prime 2455 is fully operational again, I want to thank everyone who offered advice here. After giving up on repairing the power supply, I decided to buy one. Had I known they'd only cost $100, I'd have bought one sooner. Well, that was my Christmas present to myself for Christmas 2000. It arrives, I install it, press the power button, and see a message from the VCP about it beginning its self-test. Then it completes, and then I get the date & time, and then... Then I get the "ON" LED flashing defiantly at a 2 Hz rate. Time passed, and I began to suspect that more than the PSU had gotten toasted. I intended to start saving money to shotgun the machine, board by board, until I had it running again. More time passed and no savings took place. Well, in steps a lister who I believe wishes to remain anonymous. Said lister faciliated the acquisition of said boards, NONE OF WHICH SOLVED THE PROBLEM! Not his fault, of course... and there is more of this part of the story I'll relate below, that should be of interest to all ClassicCmp listers. But I should thank the lister again, he knows who he is, and without his help, the Prime would still be an emotional singularity... Finally, again in desparation, I posted again to comp.sys.prime. This time, an owner of the same model I have, replies. Over the course of several dozen e-mails, we narrowed down the problem. As it turns out, the replacement PSU was either failing to ground or was in fact asserting a line known as BBUREQ+, which signals a battery backup problem to the virtual control panel. Grounding that pin got the system past the point in the boot where it would flash the LED. I suspect a forgotten FCO... More problems... it says it thinks its a 2450 and it can see it has 2455 parts, not right, won't boot. Swap VCP. Same. Swap in my original VCP. Ok, now it's happyy... nope, now the CPU won't verify. Swap in a second CPU board set. Nope. Ok, go for broke, swap in the remaining CPU board set, replace newly-provided CPU board interconnects (top hats) with my old ones. Replace my VCP-to-CPU cable with 3rd party cable. Now it's verifying the CPU ok, but can't autoboot from drive unit 0. I freak thinking it's the controller. Better that than the drive, tho... The bulkhead cable had gotten munged a bit, so I began to suspect it, and mangle it further trying to fix it. Still no good. Ok, stick a new connector on the cable. Nope. Remove and reseat the external cable to the duplex shoebox. Nope. Try different SCSI unit addresses... hey, that worked... But I can only see one drive. I mess around with various adresses, suspecting a dropped bit in the bad cable. Still can't get them both online. I finally ended up swapping the two unit select switches, or rather, the connectors, so that each drive was using the other's selectors. Then set them for the appropriate values. Bingo! Autoboot to unit 0 and unit 1 is also seen and mounted. So, I'm able to boot it into: Primos Rev. 23.4.Y2K.R1 Primos Rev. 20.0.8 Primos II Rev. 20 and these from either disk or tape. Whew! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Now, on to the part of the story that's widely applicable. Don't underestimate the potential usefulness of a 3rd-party service organization. The company in question services other stuff that they actually make money from. But they make no money from servicing Primes. They have a policy about repairs, as since these days, it's mostly remove & replace. Techs with experience are expensive so customers tend to do their own work. But this firm charges for a part IF and ONLY IF it effects a repair. Now, that's probably standard. But when a part doesn't fix the problem, this firm has no desire to incur the shipping costs of returning the part to them, and they sure as hell can't get the customer to pay for it if it doesn't contribute to the fix. So the upshot of this is that I got to keep all the spares, and the lister who facilitated this will be charged only for the time spent talking to a technician (who found the thing about the LED flash and what it meant *ABOUT 4 HOURS* after I got the system semi-operational as described above). >From the postings here, most of you would be a little better equipped (not much just a little) to financially faciliate a repair operation like this one became. But I suspect that like me, a 3rd-party servce organzation would be about the last thing you'd consider, as a hobbyist. You'd assume like I did that it would cost a fortune. But the technician I spoke to was also a preservationist (although now I forget what he likes!). So before you give up on that old iron and dump it, try calling for service, and when you get the technician, explain to *him* that you're non-commercial and can't afford much. You may just land a bargain. Regards, -doug q From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Apr 1 22:24:03 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001c01c1d9f0$0addc8d0$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: I've been building PCs since XTs came out, and I cannot think of a single time that I've reamed out a screw, with the exception of one of those very fine pitch thread screws the CDROM manufacturers seem to like. If you're re-threading the hole everytime, perhaps you should take it a little easier on the poor PC case :-) I do have one theory that applies to PCs and cars: If you fail to shed blood and appease the gods, it will not work when you're done. --John > I should have been more specific... the screws to which I am > referring are those commonly provided for securing the cards > in their slots. And they shed metal not only from the screw > but from the rear of the chassis they thread into. > > In fact, everytime you insert one of these, it has a 50% > chance of rethreading the hole. > > Look at them carefully... they have a noticable taper. > > That's *one* way to encourage them to stay put. > > -dq > From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Mon Apr 1 22:20:16 2002 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) References: <20020401223539.47316.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c1d9ff$2b5e9030$9865fea9@downstairs> I used to do all of my stuff on wire-wrap. I am now building classic computer board that I want to show off and a PCB looks so much better. I have done a few circuit boards from ExpressPCB and really like it. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:35 PM Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) > --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > ...The board will be about 8" x 7" and $175 canadian for two > > prototype boards. Wire wrap sockets/wire/protoboard would cost me $100... > > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup costs and the per-sq-in > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or Unibus-sized 4-layer board, > complete with gold fingers!), personally, my WW overhead isn't terrible: > I rescued all the prototype hardware from my former employer when they > went bust - I probably have three lifetimes worth of WW sockets. When > I do a project, the only part I have to spend money on is the wire. > > My last project is a good case-study for expense vs. time. I wanted to > replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space Ace. I tried to find > one on ePay, but they only come up occasionally (every couple of months). > I decided to build one. I started with a couple of digital pictures, > a parts list and a schematic. Since the board was approx 6"x9", it > would have been somewhat expensive for a commercially-made PCB. There > are still plenty of surplus units out there that sell used for under $50 > when they are available, so it would be cheaper to wait for a sale than > to have a professional PCB created unless the new PCB added value somehow. > > I had the blue perfboard (from when the MicroCenter got rid of all of their > prototyping hardware at 80% off list!), the wire and the discrete > components. I had to purchase the LEDs ($0.65 each) and the driver chips > (a few bucks each). Total out-of-pocket expense was <$25. I probably > pulled about $15-$20-worth of supplies out of my parts bins. > > Construction took place over several evenings, watching the sci-fi channel, > tacking down point-to-point connections (didn't have the vertical > clearance for socketing the LEDs). I'm pleased that it worked the first > time! - pictures at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ > under the "LED Scoreboard" link. Mostly, it's pictures of the glow of > the LEDs, but there's one out-of-focus, flash-burned picture of the > perfboard and yellow wire in there (the Apple QT150 has about a 24" min > focal distance without the strap-on lens). > > The upshot was that if this were being done for anyone but me personally, > it would have been an economic disaster. Nobody would have paid me a > reasonable amount for that much work - it would have been much cheaper > to go to an arcade service company and *buy* a used scoreboard than spend > 10+ hours wiring up a board. It would have been much cheaper than that > to wait out the next wave of offerings on eBay (which I accidentally did - > the project took so long to complete that I _did_ pick a real one up for > around $30, after I was 95% finished with my replica. The good news is > that it made a nice functional benchmark to prove that mine worked). > > So I chose to trade my time for semi-instant gratification. I would > have loved to have done a PCB, but I chose not to spend the time with > layout tape and a blank board, and I chose not to pay to register a > demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" board. If I were to > make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this whole thread, I'm not > sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in small quantities, > according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer boards) or I'd > point-to-point it. In terms of $$$/hour, even $200 for a board set > is cheap. In terms of a discretionary hobby, $200 is a lot to divert > from other projects when I already _have_ a working PDP-8. With that > kind of money, I could start trolling for a Qbus SCSI controller! > > Back to the initial topic, though, I'd love to get a good buy on a dozen or > so spools of kynar-coated wire. I'd prefer an assortment of colors, but > I'd take it in whatever I could get - yellow, red, white... > > Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have it for a few bucks > a spool? > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 1 22:28:17 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Laser computers Message-ID: <139.c02f7a7.29da8d61@aol.com> This is just a heads-up, but i'm looking for a replacement for the first PC I owned. It was a Laser XTSL, a 10mhz XT with dual 720k drives, 1meg and no hard drive. Bought it from sears along with an RGB monitor back in 1990 or so for around $400 and ran prodigy on it with a 1200bps modem! It was a pretty neat XT class machine even if I never did have a hard drive or a 5.25 drive. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020401/b889b7d8/attachment.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 22:30:28 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <074c01c1d9fb$8178c980$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? IBM RT ;) Doc From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 1 22:41:57 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> > > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? > Well, my Prime 2455 is one example... That *may* be the year John's Cyber 180/960 was built... Any Apollo workstation made that year... Oh! Oh! Didn't the Mac II premiere in '86? Or was it '87? IBM RS/6000? Kaypro 2000? -dq From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Apr 1 22:52:30 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) In-Reply-To: <003801c1d9fe$18727780$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: Ya know, there's a fairly well fleshed out 2450 sitting in the garage below me right now, along with a load of 9trk tapes and shelves full of (mostly OS and APP) doc.. if there's some thing else you need, drop me a line off-list and I'll see what can be done. This particular system boots after the drives warm up - so we're looking desultorily for another SMD swap drive and a couple of spare Seagate Sabres... but the machine does work - it even has an I/O card, and cable, that matches the Dataproducts 300 we have. Also, there are about 40 serial I/O cables, if you need a couple, perhaps something could be worked out. I rescued this computer from 'push it off the loading dock into the dumpster if no one wants it' , and now it has been transferred to the custody of a friend of mine, who I'm visiting right now.... FYI. Cheers John From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 1 18:03:56 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <001c01c1d9f0$0addc8d0$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <20020402050217.EXQY21410.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > I've been building PCs since XTs came out, and I cannot think of a single > time that I've reamed out a screw, with the exception of one of those very > fine pitch thread screws the CDROM manufacturers seem to like. If you're > re-threading the hole everytime, perhaps you should take it a little easier > on the poor PC case :-) I have not stripped the M3 (fine kind) ever yet. I did strip the coarse thread hole out in crap paper-metal cases once in awhile. Always discard the eaten-up philips heads or thread is stripped when I find them. Keep your philips number 2 screwdriver fresh by replacing now when screwdriver starts to cam out, that is how damages the screw-heads by worn tools. I'm not talking about sex thing! With that in mind: Cross threading happens when screw got cocked and kept screwing in. Cocking happens also if the screwdriver is worn or too loose (screwdriver #1 with #2 screw. Ditto to wrong fine screw in coarse holes or vice vesa. All of this I find always give lot of resistance if started wrong. If that ever happens STOP! and back off and keep going, keeping that screw straight while spinning counterclockwise (CCW) till I feel or CLICK! STOP. Now you're ready to spin counterwise CW safely and easily. CDROM and floppy, most others stuff use M3. HDs almost always are corase type but has to be 2mm long max and quality kind. Except bigfoots these ex-Quantum 5.25 bigfoots they use fine screw (M3). Weird. > I do have one theory that applies to PCs and cars: If you fail to shed > blood and appease the gods, it will not work when you're done. Hehehe... :-) Now no longer required. Simple pay bit more for quality and above average or excellent compatiblity and that will work every time. Cheers, Wizard From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 1 23:04:18 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills References: <3CA90562.445FC7E2@diablonet.net> <3.0.1.32.20020401205205.0136f420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3CA93BD2.1080101@internet1.net> It's actully supposed to prevent it. I like it, although, I'm currently munching on baby carrots :-) It's good computer food..... no not to feed your computer, silly rabbit! Food to feed you, that won't make a mess while typeing :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > Granted, in another 20 years they'll probably prove *broccoli* can give you > cancer... ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 1 23:06:58 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 01, 2002 11:41:57 PM Message-ID: <200204020506.g3256wI22223@shell1.aracnet.com> > IBM RS/6000? Kaypro 2000? I think the RS/6000 is much later. As for the Kaypro 2000 you could buy those starting in '85 I believe, I got mine in '87. Zane From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 1 23:07:35 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: <20020401.195249.-333301.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3CA93C97.4030607@internet1.net> That and nobody want to pay for quality, with the excpetion of a small minority. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote:> > I think this started when we (the U.S.A.) began importing > parts made in communist countries. > > > Jeff From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 1 23:16:37 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <200204020421.g324LRY20571@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 1, 2 08:21:27 pm" Message-ID: <200204020516.VAA24708@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? > > Well, since I don't think DEC was still making PDP-10's at that point, that > means you're limited to various PDP-11's, VAXen, and the Macintosh. I think the Commodore 128DCR was out by this time too. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "Eight tries. The number is ... seven." ------------------------------------ From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 1 23:20:25 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Apple IIe card Message-ID: I've got a card out of an Apple IIe that has a bunch of 7400 chips on it, a 4-switch dip switch, a 26pin header, and an EPROM with a label that says "GPC" on it. The board also has "GPC" and "519" silk-screened on the comonent side and "Made in Taiwan R.O.C." on the solder side. Google doesnt seem to reveal anything useful. Any ideas what this is? From torquil at rockbridge.net Mon Apr 1 23:31:35 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> Pardon the ignorance here, But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one of the 1986 bunch? (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 11:41 PM Subject: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > > > > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? > > > > Well, my Prime 2455 is one example... > > That *may* be the year John's Cyber 180/960 was built... > > Any Apollo workstation made that year... > > Oh! Oh! Didn't the Mac II premiere in '86? Or was it '87? > > IBM RS/6000? Kaypro 2000? > > -dq > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 1 23:35:31 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John Chris Wren wrote: > I do have one theory that applies to PCs and cars: If you fail to shed > blood and appease the gods, it will not work when you're done. Absolutely. Although Sridhar and I have discussed the possibility of offering up chicken blood instead.... Doc From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Apr 1 23:38:08 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:51 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <003c01c1d9ff$2b5e9030$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: <20020402053808.47600.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> I've made a few medium-complexity PCB's (and I really mean, made, with icky chemicals, drills, etc). I didn't tape them, I used a 17 year old (legit, incredibly!) copy of Wintek's software. I like to wire-wrap one-of's because it gives me a feeling of satisfaction that I really built it (and didn't just stuff parts in holes), and, to me anyway, it just "looks" more handmade and unique. But if you designed the PCB, you can get the satisfaction of designing the board, and also the built-in capability of sharing or selling your design easily to people who might not be as committed or interested in the nasty details, but just want something to work with a minimum of fuss. I wire-wrapped a few 8008's and 8080's and sold them on eBay, but it wasn't really worth my time, except when I was unemployed. I'm thinking about doing PCB's and selling 8080 and 6800 kits. Seriously! --- Michael Holley wrote: > I used to do all of my stuff on wire-wrap. I am now > building classic > computer board that I want to show off and a PCB > looks so much better. I > have done a few circuit boards from ExpressPCB and > really like it. > > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 2:35 PM > Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics > (was Re: "New" PDP-8) > > > > --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > ...The board will be about 8" x 7" and $175 > canadian for two > > > prototype boards. Wire wrap > sockets/wire/protoboard would cost me > $100... > > > > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup > costs and the per-sq-in > > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or > Unibus-sized 4-layer board, > > complete with gold fingers!), personally, my WW > overhead isn't terrible: > > I rescued all the prototype hardware from my > former employer when they > > went bust - I probably have three lifetimes worth > of WW sockets. When > > I do a project, the only part I have to spend > money on is the wire. > > > > My last project is a good case-study for expense > vs. time. I wanted to > > replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space > Ace. I tried to find > > one on ePay, but they only come up occasionally > (every couple of months). > > I decided to build one. I started with a couple > of digital pictures, > > a parts list and a schematic. Since the board was > approx 6"x9", it > > would have been somewhat expensive for a > commercially-made PCB. There > > are still plenty of surplus units out there that > sell used for under $50 > > when they are available, so it would be cheaper to > wait for a sale than > > to have a professional PCB created unless the new > PCB added value somehow. > > > > I had the blue perfboard (from when the > MicroCenter got rid of all of > their > > prototyping hardware at 80% off list!), the wire > and the discrete > > components. I had to purchase the LEDs ($0.65 > each) and the driver chips > > (a few bucks each). Total out-of-pocket expense > was <$25. I probably > > pulled about $15-$20-worth of supplies out of my > parts bins. > > > > Construction took place over several evenings, > watching the sci-fi > channel, > > tacking down point-to-point connections (didn't > have the vertical > > clearance for socketing the LEDs). I'm pleased > that it worked the first > > time! - pictures at > http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ > > under the "LED Scoreboard" link. Mostly, it's > pictures of the glow of > > the LEDs, but there's one out-of-focus, > flash-burned picture of the > > perfboard and yellow wire in there (the Apple > QT150 has about a 24" min > > focal distance without the strap-on lens). > > > > The upshot was that if this were being done for > anyone but me personally, > > it would have been an economic disaster. Nobody > would have paid me a > > reasonable amount for that much work - it would > have been much cheaper > > to go to an arcade service company and *buy* a > used scoreboard than spend > > 10+ hours wiring up a board. It would have been > much cheaper than that > > to wait out the next wave of offerings on eBay > (which I accidentally did - > > the project took so long to complete that I _did_ > pick a real one up for > > around $30, after I was 95% finished with my > replica. The good news is > > that it made a nice functional benchmark to prove > that mine worked). > > > > So I chose to trade my time for semi-instant > gratification. I would > > have loved to have done a PCB, but I chose not to > spend the time with > > layout tape and a blank board, and I chose not to > pay to register a > > demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" > board. If I were to > > make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this > whole thread, I'm not > > sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in > small quantities, > > according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer > boards) or I'd > > point-to-point it. In terms of $$$/hour, even > $200 for a board set > > is cheap. In terms of a discretionary hobby, $200 > is a lot to divert > > from other projects when I already _have_ a > working PDP-8. With that > > kind of money, I could start trolling for a Qbus > SCSI controller! > > > > Back to the initial topic, though, I'd love to get > a good buy on a dozen > or > > so spools of kynar-coated wire. I'd prefer an > assortment of colors, but > > I'd take it in whatever I could get - yellow, red, > white... > > > > Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have > it for a few bucks > > a spool? > > > > -ethan > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for > Easter, Passover > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Apr 1 23:58:48 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000>; from torquil@rockbridge.net on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:31:35AM -0500 References: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: <20020401215848.A19335@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:31:35AM -0500, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > Pardon the ignorance here, > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one > of the 1986 bunch? Well, some of them are ancestors of modern machines -- the Mac II of the modern Macs, the Kaypro 2000 of modern PC clones (I believe), and the RS/6000 of modern IBM UNIX workstations. So you could choose the most compatible ones. Or you could choose the most powerful ones (of course, power depends on what you need -- CPU speed, I/O speed, ability to run particular kinds of programs quickly, etc.). The powerful ones may be the power-consuming ones, of course. So low power requirements would be another measure of goodness. You could even look for the smallest and most portable machines. But I would let them show their own strengths -- try them out, see if they have some software or hardware you like, or some features that haven't been duplicated in systems you're familiar with. -- Derek P.S. What about the Amiga and the Atari ST? No one's mentioned them yet. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Apr 2 00:16:52 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: <003501c1da0d$fb2aca00$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > Pardon the ignorance here, > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one > of the 1986 bunch? > > (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in > 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) > In 1986 the computer I really wanted bad was a Toshiba T3100 laptop -- 286 processor, 10 MB hard drive and world's first plasma display (I think). Cost $3,400 in 1986, but you can get one on eBay today for around 10 bucks or so. For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2013655798 As far as non-minis go, this was the best of the best at the time, and arguably the most "modern." -W P.S. I waited 2 years and ended up with a T5100 with a 386/16 and monster 40 MB hard drive -- well worth the wait and the 5 grand (particularly as my employer paid for it)! From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 2 00:07:09 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) References: <20020401223539.47316.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006501c1da0c$9fcd9e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What I've encountered more and more is the inconvenience associated with trying to use current-generation components in wire-wrap. I'm always having to build adapters that make a DIP out of a TSSOP or the like. The adapters in a prototype often exceed the cost of a PCB. It's much easier to build small boards, about the size of a typical playing card, and that's enough space to house a microcomputer of reasonable capability, comparable with any "classic" 8-bitter of the '70's and '80's, including its I/O, memory, video, and mass storage interfaces. After I get the current task off the table, I'll take a closer look, but it seems to me that it's easier to put a system on a playing-card sized board, and cheaper too, using current technology, than to recreate the old stuff using parts that are increasingly scarce and boards that are needlessly large and costly. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 3:35 PM Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) > --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > ...The board will be about 8" x 7" and $175 canadian for two > > prototype boards. Wire wrap sockets/wire/protoboard would cost me $100... > > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup costs and the per-sq-in > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or Unibus-sized 4-layer board, > complete with gold fingers!), personally, my WW overhead isn't terrible: > I rescued all the prototype hardware from my former employer when they > went bust - I probably have three lifetimes worth of WW sockets. When > I do a project, the only part I have to spend money on is the wire. > > My last project is a good case-study for expense vs. time. I wanted to > replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space Ace. I tried to find > one on ePay, but they only come up occasionally (every couple of months). > I decided to build one. I started with a couple of digital pictures, > a parts list and a schematic. Since the board was approx 6"x9", it > would have been somewhat expensive for a commercially-made PCB. There > are still plenty of surplus units out there that sell used for under $50 > when they are available, so it would be cheaper to wait for a sale than > to have a professional PCB created unless the new PCB added value somehow. > > I had the blue perfboard (from when the MicroCenter got rid of all of their > prototyping hardware at 80% off list!), the wire and the discrete > components. I had to purchase the LEDs ($0.65 each) and the driver chips > (a few bucks each). Total out-of-pocket expense was <$25. I probably > pulled about $15-$20-worth of supplies out of my parts bins. > > Construction took place over several evenings, watching the sci-fi channel, > tacking down point-to-point connections (didn't have the vertical > clearance for socketing the LEDs). I'm pleased that it worked the first > time! - pictures at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ > under the "LED Scoreboard" link. Mostly, it's pictures of the glow of > the LEDs, but there's one out-of-focus, flash-burned picture of the > perfboard and yellow wire in there (the Apple QT150 has about a 24" min > focal distance without the strap-on lens). > > The upshot was that if this were being done for anyone but me personally, > it would have been an economic disaster. Nobody would have paid me a > reasonable amount for that much work - it would have been much cheaper > to go to an arcade service company and *buy* a used scoreboard than spend > 10+ hours wiring up a board. It would have been much cheaper than that > to wait out the next wave of offerings on eBay (which I accidentally did - > the project took so long to complete that I _did_ pick a real one up for > around $30, after I was 95% finished with my replica. The good news is > that it made a nice functional benchmark to prove that mine worked). > > So I chose to trade my time for semi-instant gratification. I would > have loved to have done a PCB, but I chose not to spend the time with > layout tape and a blank board, and I chose not to pay to register a > demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" board. If I were to > make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this whole thread, I'm not > sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in small quantities, > according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer boards) or I'd > point-to-point it. In terms of $$$/hour, even $200 for a board set > is cheap. In terms of a discretionary hobby, $200 is a lot to divert > from other projects when I already _have_ a working PDP-8. With that > kind of money, I could start trolling for a Qbus SCSI controller! > > Back to the initial topic, though, I'd love to get a good buy on a dozen or > so spools of kynar-coated wire. I'd prefer an assortment of colors, but > I'd take it in whatever I could get - yellow, red, white... > > Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have it for a few bucks > a spool? > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 00:24:49 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > Pardon the ignorance here, > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one > of the 1986 bunch? That's going to be a very subjective call. What criteria define "modern"? The Intel-based 386 PC was out, Macintosh was out, Silicon Graphics were building MIPS boxes. The IBM RT was falling on its nose in the business world, and my boss, who was at TJ Watson then, says they were doing early development on the RS/6000. As best he can remember, and from the dates on the 7012-320 I have, they actually started shipping in 1990. From here, from my perspective of not being into electronics then at all, it looks like every other garage was a computer company. Just get one of everything, and have fun! Doc From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Apr 2 00:40:40 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now > Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case > has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to > target. Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? From torquil at rockbridge.net Tue Apr 2 00:38:24 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> <003501c1da0d$fb2aca00$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <082a01c1da11$0092bb80$0200a8c0@tm2000> What about systems with ethernet. I'd prefer a medium between massive power-suckers and portables... like say, desktops :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne M. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:16 AM Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > > Pardon the ignorance here, > > > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one > > of the 1986 bunch? > > > > (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in > > 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) > > > In 1986 the computer I really wanted bad was a Toshiba T3100 laptop -- 286 processor, 10 MB hard drive and world's first plasma > display (I think). Cost $3,400 in 1986, but you can get one on eBay today for around 10 bucks or so. For example: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2013655798 > > As far as non-minis go, this was the best of the best at the time, and arguably the most "modern." > > -W > > P.S. I waited 2 years and ended up with a T5100 with a 386/16 and monster 40 MB hard drive -- well worth the wait and the 5 grand > (particularly as my employer paid for it)! > From gkaplan63 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 00:39:08 2002 From: gkaplan63 at hotmail.com (Gerry Kaplan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: IBM Mag Card Composer, Electronic Selectric Composer or IBM 5100 or 5110 Message-ID: <003f01c1da11$17799df0$2101a8c0@bach> I collect the IBM Composer line of typesetting equipment. If anyone has or knows of any IBM Composers, I can provide them with a good home. I'm interested in any Composer related documentation as well. Also looking for: IBM 5100 or 5110 in working condition IBM Mag Card typewriters IBM Memory typewriters IBM Electronic typewriters (model 50 or 95) IBM 3101 terminal Thanks! Gerry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/4f50c403/attachment.html From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 2 00:45:38 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Apr 01, 2002 10:40:40 PM Message-ID: <200204020645.BAA00441@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Wayne M. Smith once stated: > > > The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now > > Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case > > has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to > > target. > > Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm > > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? While DeCSS is a circumvention device, a pirate does *not* need DeCSS to copy a DVD. DeCSS was created to allow someone the ability to *view* DVDs the author *already owned.* Now, the author wanted to view these on a device not blessed with the proper licensing and there in is the crux of the matter. When I buy a DVD, what, exactly, am I getting? -spc (I mean, besides shafted by Hollywood?) From sloboyko at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 00:49:22 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <006501c1da0c$9fcd9e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020402064922.27710.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> Well, it is harder to do, and more expensive, but I personally find it more rewarding to hunt down old parts and have those parts period-authentic. For example, the Motorola 6800 I'm building uses a Motorola 6820 (surprisingly hard to find compared to a 6821) and an MC6871 hybrid clock generator in a can, also period and very hard to find (even the SWTPC used its cheaper 6875 successor and a separate crystal). I like to use ceramic/gold chips be the original maker of the chip for machines I'll display. I suppose, if all I wanted to do was "run" these machines, I could just load an emulator and be done with it. Weird, perhaps - maybe its because I couldn't afford even the parts to build these when I was in high school(and would be less likely to succeed in making them work or programming them). --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > What I've encountered more and more is the > inconvenience associated with > trying to use current-generation components in > wire-wrap. I'm always having > to build adapters that make a DIP out of a TSSOP or > the like. The adapters in > a prototype often exceed the cost of a PCB. It's > much easier to build small > boards, about the size of a typical playing card, > and that's enough space to > house a microcomputer of reasonable capability, > comparable with any "classic" > 8-bitter of the '70's and '80's, including its I/O, > memory, video, and mass > storage interfaces. After I get the current task > off the table, I'll take a > closer look, but it seems to me that it's easier to > put a system on a > playing-card sized board, and cheaper too, using > current technology, than to > recreate the old stuff using parts that are > increasingly scarce and boards > that are needlessly large and costly. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 3:35 PM > Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics > (was Re: "New" PDP-8) > > > > --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > ...The board will be about 8" x 7" and $175 > canadian for two > > > prototype boards. Wire wrap > sockets/wire/protoboard would cost me $100... > > > > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup > costs and the per-sq-in > > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or > Unibus-sized 4-layer board, > > complete with gold fingers!), personally, my WW > overhead isn't terrible: > > I rescued all the prototype hardware from my > former employer when they > > went bust - I probably have three lifetimes worth > of WW sockets. When > > I do a project, the only part I have to spend > money on is the wire. > > > > My last project is a good case-study for expense > vs. time. I wanted to > > replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space > Ace. I tried to find > > one on ePay, but they only come up occasionally > (every couple of months). > > I decided to build one. I started with a couple > of digital pictures, > > a parts list and a schematic. Since the board was > approx 6"x9", it > > would have been somewhat expensive for a > commercially-made PCB. There > > are still plenty of surplus units out there that > sell used for under $50 > > when they are available, so it would be cheaper to > wait for a sale than > > to have a professional PCB created unless the new > PCB added value somehow. > > > > I had the blue perfboard (from when the > MicroCenter got rid of all of their > > prototyping hardware at 80% off list!), the wire > and the discrete > > components. I had to purchase the LEDs ($0.65 > each) and the driver chips > > (a few bucks each). Total out-of-pocket expense > was <$25. I probably > > pulled about $15-$20-worth of supplies out of my > parts bins. > > > > Construction took place over several evenings, > watching the sci-fi channel, > > tacking down point-to-point connections (didn't > have the vertical > > clearance for socketing the LEDs). I'm pleased > that it worked the first > > time! - pictures at > http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ > > under the "LED Scoreboard" link. Mostly, it's > pictures of the glow of > > the LEDs, but there's one out-of-focus, > flash-burned picture of the > > perfboard and yellow wire in there (the Apple > QT150 has about a 24" min > > focal distance without the strap-on lens). > > > > The upshot was that if this were being done for > anyone but me personally, > > it would have been an economic disaster. Nobody > would have paid me a > > reasonable amount for that much work - it would > have been much cheaper > > to go to an arcade service company and *buy* a > used scoreboard than spend > > 10+ hours wiring up a board. It would have been > much cheaper than that > > to wait out the next wave of offerings on eBay > (which I accidentally did - > > the project took so long to complete that I _did_ > pick a real one up for > > around $30, after I was 95% finished with my > replica. The good news is > > that it made a nice functional benchmark to prove > that mine worked). > > > > So I chose to trade my time for semi-instant > gratification. I would > > have loved to have done a PCB, but I chose not to > spend the time with > > layout tape and a blank board, and I chose not to > pay to register a > > demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" > board. If I were to > > make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this > whole thread, I'm not > > sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in > small quantities, > > according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer > boards) or I'd > > point-to-point it. In terms of $$$/hour, even > $200 for a board set > > is cheap. In terms of a discretionary hobby, $200 > is a lot to divert > > from other projects when I already _have_ a > working PDP-8. With that > > kind of money, I could start trolling for a Qbus > SCSI controller! > > > > Back to the initial topic, though, I'd love to get > a good buy on a dozen or > > so spools of kynar-coated wire. I'd prefer an > assortment of colors, but > > I'd take it in whatever I could get - yellow, red, > white... > > > > Anyone have a lead on any surplus places that have > it for a few bucks > > a spool? > > > > -ethan > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for > Easter, Passover > > http://greetings.yahoo.com/ > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 2 00:48:30 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Apple IIe card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > I've got a card out of an Apple IIe that has a bunch of 7400 chips on it, > a 4-switch dip switch, a 26pin header, and an EPROM with a label that says > "GPC" on it. The board also has "GPC" and "519" silk-screened on the > comonent side and "Made in Taiwan R.O.C." on the solder side. Google > doesnt seem to reveal anything useful. > > Any ideas what this is? Which chips does it have on it? The best guess I can come up with based on the header, is a floppy disk or printer interface card. Also, how is the header positioned on the board? -Toth From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 2 00:50:49 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now > > Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case > > has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to > > target. > > Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm > > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? Show me one instance in how DeCSS was used to copy movies in full DVD digital quality, like the MPAA says. Never mind that you could do a straight binary copy of the DVD without any decryption to re-distribute it. Now, ask how many people use DeCSS-based code to view DVD's becuase no company wants to feed the MPAA money to sell a DVD player for their OS (eg. Linux) DeCSS is not intended for making copies, it's for guaranteeing fair-use rights guaranteed by US Copyright law. -- Pat From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 2 00:59:37 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Granted, in another 20 years they'll probably prove *broccoli* can give you > > cancer... ;-) > > One can only hope. > > Doc > You mean that George Herbert Walker Bush's dislike of it may have a valid basis? - don From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 01:15:59 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <082a01c1da11$0092bb80$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: Amiga. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 01:19:21 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now > > Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case > > has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to > > target. > > Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm Cool. I missed hearing about that. > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? DeCSS was a huge red herring. It was originally developed to _watch_ DVD movies, not _copy_ them. The DMCA proponents raised bloody hell about people downloading full-length DVDs to their computers and wathing them free. Get a grip. At the time - 1998 - the price of disk storage was more than a legal DVD, and unless you had a seriously wicked box, the quality sucked. Besides, even at cable-modem speeds, it takes a minute or three to download 5-1/2 _gigabytes_ of movie. I'm not a proponent of piracy. I do think that mass distribution should be a criminal offense. But we already have laws for that. DMCA, UCITA, and this new abortion all go way too far. Doc From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Apr 2 01:35:17 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> <003501c1da0d$fb2aca00$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> <082a01c1da11$0092bb80$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: <00b001c1da18$eff0f1e0$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > What about systems with ethernet. I'd prefer a medium between massive > power-suckers and portables... like say, desktops :) > As someone else mentioned, the Compaq Deskpro 386/16 is your machine. Along with the harder to find ALR Access 386, this was the first 386 desktop and it led to the dethroning of IBM as king of the PC hill, as IBM didn't release its first 386 machine until the next year. Historically significant, powerful for its time, and you can use an ethernet card with it too! -W From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 01:33:25 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <082a01c1da11$0092bb80$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > What about systems with ethernet. I'd prefer a medium between massive > power-suckers and portables... like say, desktops :) Lots (OK, some) of the high-end 286 or 386 PCs at the time had ethernet. My RT has ethernet, but in its original configuration it was definitely a "power-sucker". Ditching ESDI in favor of IDE helped that a lot. My MicroVAX II, introduced in '85 I think and still sold in '86, has ethernet, but it is definitely a power-devourer. Doc From red at bears.org Tue Apr 2 02:05:23 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > The Intel-based 386 PC was out, Macintosh was out, Silicon Graphics > were building MIPS boxes. In '86? Not quite. http://www.sgi.com/features/2002/jan/20th/timeline.html ok r. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Apr 2 02:26:43 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <00d301c1da20$1ef89220$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > > The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was no less ridiculous, and is now > > > Federal law. In the many times that law has been invoked, not one case > > > has involved the mass distribution pirates its proponents claimed to > > > target. > > > > Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." > > > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm > > Cool. I missed hearing about that. > > > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" > > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" > > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? > > DeCSS was a huge red herring. It was originally developed to _watch_ > DVD movies, not _copy_ them. The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how it may ultimately be used -- we (the US) build weapons of mass destruction as a deterrent to keep the peace, but they're clearly capable of great evil. If you're referring to the that DeCSS was developed because there was no Linux DVD player, this story is apocryphal. DeCSS is a Windows-only executable file; there never was a Linux version, and the claim that it was developed as a Windows file because Linux didin't support the DVD file structure is nonsense. Moreover, if you need the windows OS to decrypt a DVD, then you already have a computer that can play the DVD. From torquil at rockbridge.net Tue Apr 2 02:34:38 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: WTB: Old Computers Message-ID: <08ac01c1da21$3d66ae80$0200a8c0@tm2000> Hi, So after a lot of deliberation over the Computers in 1986 thread. I decided on some that would work for me. If anyone has one of the following please let me know: Sharp X1 Turbo III Sharp X1 Turbo Z Sony Hit-Bit 500 Thomson TO 9 PLUS Apple IIgs ELORG Agat 9 Excelvision Exeltel Thanks, torquil From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 2 02:47:05 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: What editions of the VAX Hardware Reference are there? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066537@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Gunther Schadow wrote: > > >I am looking for VAX Hardware Reference for the VAX 11/780, 11/785, >86x0, the uVAX-II, and then the VAX 6000s. I suspect that's not all >in one book. But, what revisions of the Hardware Reference are there >anyway? I think the first edition is the 1978/1979, at least my >VAX Architecture Handbook bears this date. I understand that the >"Handbooks" were a 3-volume series, with volume 1 Architecture, >vol 2 Harware and vol 3 Software (VMS). I assume that they threw >out old models in more recent editions, right? Could we reconstruct >which topics are described in which edition of the Hardware Handbook? There are lots of handbooks. I have: - VAX Architecture 1981 - VAX 11/780 Hardware Handbook 1979/80 - VAX 11/780 Architecture Handbook 1977-78 - VAX Hardware Handbook 1982-83 (the above all cover the VAX 11/7xx series only) - VAX Hardware Handbook 1986 Volume 1 - VAX Hardware Handbook 1986 Volume 2 - MicroVAX Systems Handbook - VAX Systems Handbook - UNIBUS Systems - VAX Systems Handbook - VAXBI Systems There are probably further editions. I'd say the technical content went down as time went on but they do all at least provide a user-level overview. >One can't buy those any more, how does that influence the right to >compile and share copies? I wonder if one could archive the >Hardware handbooks by subject and that way compile a single volume >with complete coverage of all VAXen. DFWCUG ( http://montagar.com/~patj/dec/hcps.htm ) are scanning stuff. I've not seen any handbooks yet but you could try contacting them and seeing how far they have got to date. They do have the covers of many handbooks available. I know that one of their problems was finding a way of removing the book spine cleanly (to feed the book through a sheet feed scanner). If you try http://www.decdocs.org you see a bunch of links to other sites, some of which have a few handbooks available in various forms (although I don't think the handbooks you want are online anywhere I have seen). >Besides, there is a mystical "Perepherial Handbook" to which I have >seen reference once, but never any copy in bookstores, catalogues or >on eBay. Did it ever exist? Was it volume 4 of the series? What >items were covered over the years in there? There is a Peripherals handbook (for the cover see: http://montagar.com/~patj/dec/pdp11/index.htm ) There were several editions, one every couple of years. These handbooks (which were not really a series as such) were marketing collateral. They were put together by marketing either to give away on customer visits, or to sell on. They should not be relied on too heavily for technical information (except, I suppose, in the absence of a real technical manual). Antonio From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 2 05:17:14 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: References: <20020401231948.7224827F4A8@mail.wzrd.com> Message-ID: <20020402131714.A315260@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 07:47:52PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > Easiest way is to attach the drive to a comparable machine running > a Ultrix that you know the password too. Mount it, edit /etc/passwd, > umount it, and re-install. Netboot NetBSD, mount, edit, ... NetBSD should be able to handle the 4.2BSD FFS of Ultrix. At least it is worth a try if booting the Ultix/VAX to single user mode don't work. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 2 06:03:07 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <00d301c1da20$1ef89220$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Apr 2, 02 00:26:43 am Message-ID: <200204021203.HAA05973@wordstock.com> And thusly Wayne M. Smith spake: > > > > > DeCSS was a huge red herring. It was originally developed to _watch_ > > DVD movies, not _copy_ them. > > The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how it may ultimately be used -- we (the US) build weapons of > mass destruction as a deterrent to keep the peace, but they're clearly capable of great evil. If you're referring to the that DeCSS > was developed because there was no Linux DVD player, this story is apocryphal. DeCSS is a Windows-only executable file; there never > was a Linux version, and the claim that it was developed as a Windows file because Linux didin't support the DVD file structure is > nonsense. Moreover, if you need the windows OS to decrypt a DVD, then you already have a computer that can play the DVD. > No no no! The source for DeCSS was released and a Windows executable was made from that.... T-shirts have even been made with the source code printed on them. Cheers, Bryan From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 06:14:08 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > Pardon the ignorance here, > > But which would you guys consider to be the most > modernly functional one of the 1986 bunch? > > (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in > 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) I do believe most of us had that figured out. This list isn't really about modern computers. But hands down, the Macintosh would be the most modern of the bunch. Although it's not color-capable, the user interface is has is what Bill Gates stole from Apple and used to build Windows. So you'd be most at home there. I've been a Mac advocate from the beginning, but for my own purposes, computers with operating systems that provide a text-mode shell, such as the *nixen and its derivitives, VMS, Primos, DOS, are preferable. As someone with a tiny bit of a math background, the ability you gain with a sophisticated command-line environment is great. In most of these operating systems, you can string commands togther like factors in an equation, and perform complex transformations on sets of files all at once. Hard to do that with a Graphical User Interface. To the List: Was the AT&T 3B2 still being made in '86? If so, there's a good choice for him. I even know where he could get one... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 06:24:53 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <000f01c1da41$644be770$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm > > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those > who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as > much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? When everyone realizes the inaudability of what would be lost if they used straight analog audio paths for copying, and thus they finally give up on digital copying, will the Entertainment Industry lobby for a AMCA? Will Radio Shack get busted for selling patch cords? DMCA is ridiculous. -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 06:45:21 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <001e01c1da44$403a2bf0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Wrong. 4500+ copies is "mass distribution." > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/03/29/video-bootleg.htm > > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only > those who distribute copies, but those who provide > "circumvention devices" that enable others to engage > in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to > go after those involved in "mass distribution" > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? I just read the article... the person convicted was using what I believe is an *analog* device... but I suppose the difference between a digital device and an analog device won't matter to the Supreme Court. Now, this guy was *way* wrong... but he could have been prosecuted under any number of preexisting laws. Locally, a guy did this over 20 years ago with audio tapes (cassettes), was busted by the FBI, but worked out a deal, and not only didn't do jail time, but is considered the Premier Merchant locally for audio software... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 06:49:05 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <002601c1da44$c63b7060$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John Chris Wren wrote: > > > I do have one theory that applies to PCs and cars: If you fail to shed > > blood and appease the gods, it will not work when you're done. > > Absolutely. Although Sridhar and I have discussed the possibility of > offering up chicken blood instead.... Chris Smith and I were discussing repair techniques offline, and the above were amongst the discussed techniques. However, I prefer erecting totems next to the troublesome devices... ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Tue Apr 2 07:24:38 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <00d301c1da20$1ef89220$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020402082438.00f138b4@pop1.epm.net.co> At 12:26 AM 4/2/02 -0800, you wrote: >If you're referring to the that DeCSS >was developed because there was no Linux DVD player, this story is apocryphal. DeCSS is a Windows-only executable file; there never >was a Linux version, and the claim that it was developed as a Windows file because Linux didin't support the DVD file structure is >nonsense. Moreover, if you need the windows OS to decrypt a DVD, then you already have a computer that can play the DVD. Funny. I first came across decss as source for Linux. It wasn't until later that it was ported to Winblows. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 2 08:10:24 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CA9BBD0.9010009@internet1.net> Doug, Anybody, Isn't 86 the year the Mac Plus came out? The original was 84, I know. There was a model ot two inbetween the original and the Plus, but I'm unsure the exact timing. If a Plus is the 86 computer, I do have an extra with addtional goodies. It does have a slight screen fussiness in one corner of the display, However. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > This list isn't really about modern computers. But hands down, the > Macintosh would be the most modern of the bunch. Although it's > not color-capable, the user interface is has is what Bill Gates stole > from Apple and used to build Windows. So you'd be most at home > there. From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 2 08:21:27 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <00d301c1da20$1ef89220$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > > apocryphal. DeCSS is a Windows-only executable file; there never > was a Linux version, and the claim that it was developed as a Windows Really?? While they don't have the same physical name as the 'Windows Version', there's a lot of Linux 'DeCSS versions' out there. Just search google for "DeCSS" and "Linux". -- Pat From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Apr 2 08:32:32 2002 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020402082438.00f138b4@pop1.epm.net.co> References: <00d301c1da20$1ef89220$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020402082935.0328be88@127.0.0.1> Same here. It was developed for Linux first. - Matt P.S. - On a side note, the following web site has some neat references to alternative expressions of DeCSS: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/ >Funny. I first came across decss as source for Linux. It wasn't until >later that it was ported to Winblows. > >Carlos. > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/b23dca79/attachment.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 2 08:44:47 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) In-Reply-To: <003901c1d772$a9744ee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CA9DFFF.12014.22CDDC7F@localhost> > All but one of the 2K boards had a single 2016 and L2 was installed. > One 2K board had a 6116 and L2 was installed. The board was operational > and appeared unmodified. So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 08:51:23 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <000701c1da55$dc37e310$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Doug, Anybody, > > Isn't 86 the year the Mac Plus came out? The original was 84, I know. > There was a model ot two inbetween the original and the Plus, but I'm > unsure the exact timing. > > If a Plus is the 86 computer, I do have an extra with addtional goodies. > It does have a slight screen fussiness in one corner of the display, > However. Yup, 86 is right for the Plus. And for Ethernet, you can get a box that hangs off the SCSI port and provides the Ethernet ability.... The device in question seems to have been made by one firm and rebadged and sold by others... Seems like "Nova" is part of the name of the one I've got. Mine has 10-Base-2 (coax) and AUI ports, so it'd need a transceiver to do 10-Base T, I suppose.... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 2 08:54:10 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <082a01c1da11$0092bb80$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > What about systems with ethernet. I'd prefer a medium between massive > power-suckers and portables... like say, desktops :) > How about the Xerox Daybreak? Peter Wallace From hansp at aconit.org Tue Apr 2 09:05:17 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: WTB: Old Computers References: <08ac01c1da21$3d66ae80$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: <3CA9C8AD.7070909@aconit.org> Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > So after a lot of deliberation over the Computers in 1986 thread. I > decided on some that would work for me. > If anyone has one of the following please let me know: > Sharp X1 Turbo III > Sharp X1 Turbo Z > Sony Hit-Bit 500 > Thomson TO 9 PLUS > Apple IIgs > ELORG Agat 9 > Excelvision Exeltel Oooh, Thomson TO9+ and Exeltel are not your run of the mill machines metioned on this list. Where are you located. Come to think of it the others on your list are off beat as well! I might be able to supply a Thmoson or an Excel -- Hans B Pufal From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 09:32:43 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Hudson [mailto:rhudson@cnonline.net] > Is there a simple boilerplate message I can send to my > congress critters (not that it will do any good with > Ms Fienstein or Boxer) to lodge my protest. Of course, if you're going to mail your congress-things, you may as well send copies to them as well. > I am against piracy, I think Napster has brought all this > down upon us because of the few who refuse to see it for > what it was, theft. You can't blame napster for the stupidity of politicians in the US. You can only blame the politicians, their parents, or the idiots who elected (or appointed!) them. That said, also, in defense of napster, as far as I am concerned, they were providing a service, and the fact that people chose to use it for what amounts to theft under law does not make napster guilty of theft. That's simply a case of the recording industry (for the most part) attempting to find somebody big enough to make them a lot of cash on the incident. After all, it wouldn't do them any good to prosecute their customers, who were, in fact, the actual "guilty" parties. Perhaps everyone would get along better if they spent the money they pay to buy stupid laws on customer relations. Enough on that subject, though, since it doesn't relate directly. > Oh, I suppose since I can re-compile Linux any time I want > and can change the code however I like Linux will **never** > get the stamp of government approval... ... and what will happen to "embedded" type systems? I certainly hope that I never end up having to include crap like this in a project that contains only 64k of ram. Honestly, I'm sure if it comes to that, I can find another place to live. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 2 09:42:31 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: WTB: Old Computers Message-ID: > So after a lot of deliberation over the Computers in 1986 thread. I >decided on some that would work for me. > > If anyone has one of the following please let me know: > >Apple IIgs I (along with probably many others), can deal you an Apple IIgs if you wish. However, I do NOT have any complete systems I can part with, just CPUs (I own only one complete system, so that is mine, but I aquired 4 CPUs not so long ago, and they are currently just taking up space in my garage). I might also have either 3.5" and/or 5.25" drives to go with the CPUs (I have to check what is in the box). But I know for a fact that I do not have any monitors or keyboards or mice (although, in all 3 cases, generic Mac equipment will work, ie: any RGB monitor will work, or a plain composite monitor, and any ADB mouse and keyboard will work) -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 2 09:52:04 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: >The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how >it may ultimately be used So, according to you... if someone can find an illegal use for an otherwise legal item, that item should no longer be available to ANYONE, regardless of if it has legitimate legal uses? That being the case... please IMMEDIATELY surrender ALL your computers to me, since they are potentially capable of pirating software, which according to your logic, means you can not legally have said computers. I will make sure they are properly disposed of for you. While you are at it, I need a new car, so give me yours as well... after all, cars are used every day as transport mechanisms for illegal activity. I'll make sure it too is "disposed" of in a proper and fitting manner. -chris From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 09:56:39 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > Chris Smith and I were discussing repair techniques offline, and the > above were amongst the discussed techniques. > However, I prefer erecting totems next to the troublesome devices... I still maintain the usefulness of runestones, incense, and rituals involving chant and the drawing of "signs of power" around the device. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 10:32:12 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <000701c1da63$f1462c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > >The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how > >it may ultimately be used > > So, according to you... if someone can find an illegal use for an > otherwise legal item, that item should no longer be available to ANYONE, > regardless of if it has legitimate legal uses? > > That being the case... please IMMEDIATELY surrender ALL your computers to > me, since they are potentially capable of pirating software, which > according to your logic, means you can not legally have said computers. FYI... John Draper was arrested and convicted in Pennsylvania in '77 or '78 for "possession of a device capable of defrauding the telephone company of its rightful tarrifs". I met him on his journey back to the left coast after he got out. The device in question? The Apple (autodialing) Modem, which he was developing for Woz. Why? Well, Woz doesn't like to do too much in hardware; he always like to minimize the logic design and use software to do the job (a great philosphy for controllers, a louosy one for general purpose computers). So rather than design the hardware to have fixed-frequency tones, the software could determine the tones to be used. Of course, that meant you could select the ESS interswitch "MF" tones instead of DTMF. Today, virtually every modem with a Rockwell chipset has this feature. Has Rockwell been locked up? Unlikely... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 10:29:05 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Torquil MacCorkle III [mailto:torquil@rockbridge.net] > Pardon the ignorance here, > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly > functional one > of the 1986 bunch? > (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only > stuff made in > 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) Well, here's my list: AT&T Unix PC. 512k to 4M of ram [usually 1M], 40 to 60M hard drive, all in one system with a monochrome green screen, removable keyboard, and 3 button mouse. It also had a 5.25" floppy. It ran Unix SystemV R 3.0 or 3.5, I vaguely remember a port of some other system to run on it. Check some of the web pages you can find. There was a built in graphical windowing system, dynamically loadable drivers, and if you could get the ethernet board, or extra serial ports, you could run multi-user configurations. It could read/write (through special bundled software) MS-DOS disks, and there was also a DOS board for it with an 8088 CPU or something like that, and some RAM to let it actually run DOS, and DOS apps. These are pretty cool. See if you can google yourself a picture of one. :) Next: If you don't mind being something like a year off -- it was likely in prototype stage in 86, but released in 87 -- VAXStaion 2000 would be an excellent choice, too. It is a small (literally the size of a large lunchbox) VAX, with a built-in b&w framebuffer (for VWS, or X11), can accommodate an internal disk of up to 150M, and memory or (my memory is somewhat fuzzy on this) 8 or 12M, but you usually see it with something like 4M of RAM. You can also (if you use a lower-capacity, half height hard disk) fit a 1.2M floppy drive in there. There is a special inch- high expansion that screws on to the bottom of the unit to give it an external plug for another disk, and a tape drive (95 or so MB tk50). I believe it will run VMS, Ultrix, or possibly NetBSD. I would (and do on mine) run VMS on it, though. For a graphical workstation (that will actually plug into the wall! SGI didn't at the time), this is from Intergraph's page -- it ran a Unix-oid called CLIX: http://www.intergraph.com/ingrhistory80s.htm In 1986, at the Design Automation Conference, Intergraph introduced the InterPro 32C - the industry's first workstation with a processing speed of 5 million instructions per second (MIPS). This RISC-based computer was powered by the Clipper C100 chip from Fairchild Semiconductor and offered workstation performance that was five times more powerful than the VAX-11/780. Two separate 4K byte cache memory management units were linked to the CPU chip via a dual, dedicated 32-bit bus architecture. The unique combination of cache design and size provided for unparalleled instruction processing speed. The Clipper processor utilized the UNIX System V operating system. The second processor, an Intel 80186, was the I/O processor. And an Intergraph Raster Operations Processor executed the graphics commands and display operations. Then for the normal stuff, you may want to also consider: The Amiga 1000 (Launched in the UK that year...) Atari 1040STF (These had a GUI in the ROM, but didn't multitask without an add-on) The Tandy TRS-80 "Color Computer 3" (Not as impressive as the Amiga or Atari, but they're cool, especially if you have disk and tape interfaces, and perhaps a copy of OS-9) I have wanted one of these for a while, myself. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 2 02:38:53 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Apple IIe card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > I've got a card out of an Apple IIe that has a bunch of 7400 chips on it, > a 4-switch dip switch, a 26pin header, and an EPROM with a label that says > "GPC" on it. The board also has "GPC" and "519" silk-screened on the > comonent side and "Made in Taiwan R.O.C." on the solder side. Google > doesnt seem to reveal anything useful. It's probably a parallel printer controller. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 10:43:44 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <000701c1da65$8e077510$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > > > Chris Smith and I were discussing repair techniques offline, and the > > above were amongst the discussed techniques. > > > However, I prefer erecting totems next to the troublesome devices... > > I still maintain the usefulness of runestones, incense, and rituals > involving chant and the drawing of "signs of power" around > the device. As before, no disagreement, I just think those things come built-in... except for the chant, and for that "down, not across" coupled with shaking an etherkiller at the thing, should be sufficient... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From talk-lists2 at civilnews.com Tue Apr 2 10:44:46 2002 From: talk-lists2 at civilnews.com (Tim Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Technical Forums Message-ID: <200204021644.g32Gitk41119@ns2.ezwind.net> You are invited to join... WaterTalk StormTalk SewerTalk ...three new Technical Forums for water resource professionals. These forums will keep you up-to-date with the latest tips and tricks in hydraulic and hydrologic modeling. Post your engineering questions and share your unique modeling experiences with a global audience of thousands of professionals. Learn more and sign up at the link below... http://www.haestad.com/e/m.asp?d=49&m=020328DGb Not part of the Civil Engineering community? Click the link below to remove classiccmp@classiccmp.org from our list... http://www.haestad.com/e/m.asp?d=27&e=classiccmp@classiccmp.org&m=020328DGb Or, reply to this message and change the subject to " stop ". LSID: 11546-390145 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 2 10:48:08 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <20020402041637.67547.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CA9E0C8.341D8BC5@jetnet.ab.ca> Andy Berg wrote: > COLOR COMPUTER 3 Tandy Radio Shack yep! This should have been upgraded with a real keyboard and 80 column characters and a HD and sold as real computer not a toy. -- Ben Frantic - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 10:47:33 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Old Computers Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Torquil MacCorkle III [mailto:torquil@rockbridge.net] > So after a lot of deliberation over the Computers in 1986 > thread. I > decided on some that would work for me. I've forgotten two important ones from my list. One was the Apple II GS, of course. You can find the other here: http://www.scd.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/cray/xmp/xmp.html Space and power permitting, of course... :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 2 11:02:05 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: FT: Applied MicroSystms Corp EP-68000 Emulator Probe Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020402120205.007dcb70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have the probe for an Applied MicroSystms Corp EP-68000 Emulator but I don't have the emulator so I'd like to trade it for the probe for an Applied MicroSystms Corp EM-180B Z-80 Emulator that I do have. The 68000 probe is about 8 x 5 x 1 1/2" inches in size and has two 68 pin ribbon cables on one end that connect to the emulator and two short cables on the other end that terminate with 64 pin DIP plug that replaces the CPU in the target system. The DIP plug is included. It is plugged into a machined pin socket in order to protect it's lead so the leads are all in perfect condition. If anyone has the Z-80 probe and wants to trade contact me directy other wise this goes to E-OverPay. I've posted pictures of the 68000 probe and Z-80 emulator at Joe From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Apr 2 11:52:11 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <20020402041637.67547.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CA9EFCB.B1D0505C@ccp.com> You forgot the first Amiga (1000)! And the commodore 64, Plus 4, and commodore 16. Gary Hildebrand, Amiga fan St. Joseph, MO Andy Berg wrote: > > Hi! :) > > Old-computers.com has a list they made at : > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/year.asp?y=1986 > > The list seems at least somewhat accurate - pasted in > the names they have listed there, am sure there are a > lot more. :) > > CPC-5512 Amstrad > > PC 1512 Amstrad > > PC 1640 Amstrad > > APPLE IIGS Apple > > MACINTOSH PLUS Apple > > 520 / 1040 STF Atari > > AGAT 9 Elorg > > EXELTEL Exelvision > > FM 77 AV 20 Fujitsu > > FM 77 AV 40 Fujitsu > > PC XT 286 IBM > > TELESTRAT Oric > > KC 85/3 Robotron > > KC 87 Robotron > > X1 TURBO III Sharp > > X1 TURBO Z Sharp > > ZX SPECTRUM +2 Sinclair > > HIT-BIT F500 Sony > > SVI 738 - XPRESS Spectravideo > > COLOR COMPUTER 3 Tandy Radio Shack > > MO 6 Thomson > > TO 8 - TO 8D Thomson > > TO 9 PLUS Thomson > > HTH! :) > > Andy > > --- Torquil MacCorkle III > wrote: > > What are some good old computers manufactured in > > 1986? > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From rhudson at cnonline.net Tue Apr 2 11:02:28 2002 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:52 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CA9E424.6030700@cnonline.net> >> (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in >> 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) Gosh, I was born in 1958, Anybody got a spare ENIAC ? Perhaps an abacus? :^) From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Apr 2 11:02:23 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Recent 'Professional Forum' spam Message-ID: Hmmmm... "SewerTalk" might not be too far off the mark for this list, sometimes.. ;} Cheers John From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 11:00:16 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BE0@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > As before, no disagreement, I just think those things come built-in... > except for the chant, and for that "down, not across" coupled with > shaking an etherkiller at the thing, should be sufficient... ...but using the "built in" incense can have detrimental effects on performance. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From info at haestad.com Tue Apr 2 11:09:00 2002 From: info at haestad.com (info@haestad.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Haestad Methods Email List Message-ID: Your email address has been removed from our email list. Thank you, Haestad Methods http://www.haestad.com From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 11:07:00 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BE1@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > Andy Berg wrote: > > COLOR COMPUTER 3 Tandy Radio Shack > yep! This should have been upgraded with a real keyboard and > 80 column > characters > and a HD and sold as real computer not a toy. I'd forgotten the ridiculous keyboard. :) You're right, though. 512K wasn't far off from what other systems had, and the thing certainly had nicer graphics and sound than most peesees of the day. It wasn't hard, of course, to give it a hard drive, a real keyboard, etc. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 11:12:01 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: UCSD P-System & "compile once, run anywhere" Message-ID: <000701c1da69$8256c370$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> I don't think the following post ever made it to the list, during the time my office's domain cesed to exist for a short time... > A friend was claiming that with the UCSD P-System, one could "compile once" > and then "run anywhere" (where "anywhere" means different kinds of > computers running the P-System, not different instances of > the same computer). > > Was this true? I've never seen it contradicted. [...until I saw some replies here...] > Did users commonly compile on system A and then take the P-Code to > system B and run it successfully? It wasn't likely common. [..aforementioned media problems interfered?..] > I'd have thought that media incompatibility would have tended to > limit this capability. Serial ports and modems would more or less get around this problem. [..but it would appear that serial ports baffle quite a few many people..] > Was any commerical P-System software sold that was a single binary, > but the vendor expected the user to be able to install/run it on > any brand/model of P-System? (Or, did vendors have to produce a version > for every platform?) The Smalltalk-80 System also used an interpreter, called the bytecode interpreter, and it was in fact common to take an application compiled on, say, a Xerox Dorado and run it on a Xerox Magnolia, or even a Tektronix box. I've seen references recently to an Alto version of Smalltalk-80 2.2, so the apps crafted at XSIS (Xerox Special Information Systems) like The Analyst(tm), might have been worked out on Altos then run at the The Company on Magnolias. -dq I know of at least 1 person who has a copy of The Analyst, which I almost bought in 1987 (I was just going to buy ASP, the Analyst Spreadsheet)... wish we could get him onboard in the preservationist movement -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 11:13:53 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178430F@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Hudson [mailto:rhudson@cnonline.net] > Anybody got a spare ENIAC ? Not me... > Perhaps an abacus? Have one, also a small slide-rule but I'm kind of attached to them. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 11:29:04 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Network Baluns References: Message-ID: <3CA9EA60.28CC750A@rain.org> I have the following which are free for the cost of 1.2 x shipping cost. 5 - Type 1 Baluns w/ Dual BNC Connectors 30+ - Type 1 Baluns w/ Single BNC Connnector, IBM P/N 6339082 30+ - T&B Nevada Western RG-62 to UTP Cable Baluns From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 2 11:40:42 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) References: <20020401223539.47316.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> <006501c1da0c$9fcd9e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CA9ED1A.56F83165@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > What I've encountered more and more is the inconvenience associated with > trying to use current-generation components in wire-wrap. I'm always having > to build adapters that make a DIP out of a TSSOP or the like. The adapters in > a prototype often exceed the cost of a PCB. It's much easier to build small > boards, about the size of a typical playing card, and that's enough space to > house a microcomputer of reasonable capability, comparable with any "classic" > 8-bitter of the '70's and '80's, including its I/O, memory, video, and mass > storage interfaces. After I get the current task off the table, I'll take a > closer look, but it seems to me that it's easier to put a system on a > playing-card sized board, and cheaper too, using current technology, than to > recreate the old stuff using parts that are increasingly scarce and boards > that are needlessly large and costly. I would suspect that one would need a larger size PCB because that size of PCB can't hold things bigger than 56? pins. A reasonable CPU just fits in a 84 pin PLCC. Somebody (link not handy) makes a PLCC to breadboard adapter on the net, so you can use a breadboard for the newer (small) chips. It is the speed of the old I/O chips that are a problem. A 1.5 Mhz+ chip is high speed and all the good chips like floppy disc controllers are all in a mother board chip set for a PC. Mind you 8 bit CPU's are limited to 64kb as we all know is way to small for something other than a minimal PC. My own CPU design (in a FPGA) is limited to 512kb of addressing range if I want to emulate a fictional CPU in a 40 pin dip. While I use 32kx8 static ram and few special control signals and a UART in the FPGA most of my design is what a possible 1980's cpu could have been like: Limited front panel, Serial I/O, Dynamic Ram,Mother board with CPU. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 11:51:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <000701c1da63$f1462c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > >The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how > > >it may ultimately be used > > So, according to you... if someone can find an illegal use for an > > otherwise legal item, that item should no longer be available to ANYONE, > > regardless of if it has legitimate legal uses? In the Betamax case, the US Supreme court said that if there is ANY legitimate use of a device, then it is legal, even if most uses are illegal. (Warner Bros said that the primary purpose of a VCR was to make illegal copies (off the air) of copyrighted movies; Sony said that MOST VCR owners connect a camera and make home movies (porno?)) 'Course the current supremes, ... > John Draper was arrested and convicted in Pennsylvania in '77 or '78 > for "possession of a device capable of defrauding the telephone company > of its rightful tarrifs". I met him on his journey back to the left coast after > he got out. John obviously did not have Sony's clout with the court. Legal principles obviously are not as important to courts as whose ox is gored. > Has Rockwell been locked up? Unlikely... Should they be? From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 11:51:30 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Digital Networks & Communications Buyer's Guide, Networks References: <3CA9EA60.28CC750A@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CA9EFA2.2DA7D710@rain.org> I have the 1989 January - June DEC Networks * Communications Buyer's Guide, Networks free for the cost of 1.2 x shipping cost. The condition is a bit ragged on the outside 1" or so of the edges as it looks like it got wet. However, it looks like the rest of the book is fine. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 2 11:54:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <3CA9E424.6030700@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <3CA9F071.60F74645@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > >> (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in > >> 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) > Gosh, I was born in 1958, > > Anybody got a spare ENIAC ? > > Perhaps an abacus? > > :^) How about writing on a CAVE wall. *** Ducks *** Now do you one with or with out TUBES? Looking a list here http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/timeline.html 1956 was a great year for TUBE computers. 1960 was a great year Transistor computers. ( Hmm I could get a PDP-1 ) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 11:58:06 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Commodore 1701 Monitor, 1741 disk drives References: <3CA9EA60.28CC750A@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CA9F12E.DDC49696@rain.org> I have a Commodore 1701 Monitor for sale at $15.00 plus shipping. I've also got at least three 1741 disk drives for sale at $5.00 each plus shipping. From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 12:19:26 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: NCR Tape Drive References: <3CA9EA60.28CC750A@rain.org> <3CA9F12E.DDC49696@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CA9F62E.EAB4F22C@rain.org> As you might guess from the earlier posts, I am "cleaning up" stuff that I neither want nor need :). I have an NCR SCSI tape drive for $5.00 plus shipping. I have no idea if it works as it came from a friends office. Cosmetically, it looks fine. A picture of it is at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/ncr-tape.jpg From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 12:19:24 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > The Intel-based 386 PC was out, Macintosh was out, Silicon Graphics > > were building MIPS boxes. > > In '86? Not quite. > > http://www.sgi.com/features/2002/jan/20th/timeline.html Well, maybe: http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/workstat/ 1986 January * Sun Microsystems first sells shares to the public. [110.219] * IBM announces the IBM RT Personal Computer, using RISC-based technology from IBM's "801" project of the mid-70s. It is one of the first commercially-available 32-bit RISC-based computers. The base configuration has 1 MB RAM, a 1.2 MB floppy, and 40 MB hard drive, for US$11,700. With performance of only 2 MIPS, it is doomed from the beginning. [6] [19] [41.114] [61.129] * NeXT and Apple Computer reach an out-of-court settlement on Apple Computer's lawsuit against NeXT. [110.99] March * Silicon Graphics decides to switch from the Motorola 68000 processor line to MIPS Technologies' RISC processors. [29] (month unknown) * MIPS Technologies unveils the 8-MHz R2000 32-bit CPU. With 110,000 transistors, it achieves a speed rating of 5 MIPS. [38.75] (1985 [42.124]) * MIPS Technologies begins volume shipments of the 8-MHz R2000 processor. [29] June * Systems incorporating MIPS Technologies' R2000 processor begin shipping. [89.13] [187] Although I'll probably take SGI's word for it. :) Doc From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Apr 2 13:20:54 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Commodore 1701 Monitor, 1741 disk drives References: <3CA9EA60.28CC750A@rain.org> <3CA9F12E.DDC49696@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CAA0496.7ECE4649@ccp.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I have a Commodore 1701 Monitor for sale at $15.00 plus shipping. I've > also got at least three 1741 disk drives for sale at $5.00 each plus > shipping. I presume those are 1541 disk drives . . . Where are you, I'm in zip 64506. I fclose by, I'll just pick up . . . . . Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 12:23:36 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784314@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > Now do you one with or with out TUBES? > Looking a list here http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/timeline.html > 1956 was a great year for TUBE computers. > 1960 was a great year Transistor computers. ( Hmm I could get > a PDP-1 ) I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box of some sort, or possibly: A "DECStation" A PDP-11/60 A VAX-11/780 (...but what would I run on it? It would have to be RSTS/E, since VMS 1.0 hadn't been released, probably.) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 12:34:49 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Commodore 1701 Monitor, 1741 disk drives References: <3CA9EA60.28CC750A@rain.org> <3CA9F12E.DDC49696@rain.org> <3CAA0496.7ECE4649@ccp.com> Message-ID: <3CA9F9C9.30B80CC1@rain.org> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > I have a Commodore 1701 Monitor for sale at $15.00 plus shipping. I've > > also got at least three 1741 disk drives for sale at $5.00 each plus > > shipping. > > I presume those are 1541 disk drives . . . > > Where are you, I'm in zip 64506. I fclose by, I'll just pick up . . . . I should have added that I am located in Santa Barbara, California 93105. You are welcome though to come by and pick them up :). Also in another two weeks, I'll be heading back east to Georgia probably along I-40 if that helps. From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Tue Apr 2 12:36:45 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) Message-ID: <200204021836.AA00426@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: "Allison" > To: > Subject: Re: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) > Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:40:54 -0500 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > From: Chad Fernandez > >How much lead does solder dor electronics contain? I thought only > >solder for pipes contained lead? > > The best alloy is 63/37 63%lead 37% tin. Common variety is 60/40. > > The lead is not a hazard by inhalation though some of the fluxes can be. > It is a contact hazard over time as it can be transfered from the skin > to lips and injested. Solution, wash hands after using. > > Solder for pipes, by mandate has been below 5% lead for years, it > used to be mostly lead {90/10}. But the replacement for lead in plumber's solder is cadmium. And cadmium is a pretty hazardous material itself. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 2 12:41:59 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Commodore 1701 Monitor, 1741 disk drives In-Reply-To: <3CA9F12E.DDC49696@rain.org> from Marvin Johnston at "Apr 2, 2 09:58:06 am" Message-ID: <200204021841.KAA17306@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I have a Commodore 1701 Monitor for sale at $15.00 plus shipping. I've > also got at least three 1741 disk drives for sale at $5.00 each plus > shipping. 1741? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Good day for romance, but try a single person this time. ---------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 12:39:50 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: DeCSS; Was Re: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <00d301c1da20$1ef89220$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > DeCSS was a huge red herring. It was originally developed to _watch_ > > DVD movies, not _copy_ them. > > The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how it may ultimately be used -- we (the US) build weapons of > mass destruction as a deterrent to keep the peace, but they're clearly capable of great evil. If you're referring to the that DeCSS > was developed because there was no Linux DVD player, this story is apocryphal. DeCSS is a Windows-only executable file; there never > was a Linux version, and the claim that it was developed as a Windows file because Linux didin't support the DVD file structure is > nonsense. Moreover, if you need the windows OS to decrypt a DVD, then you already have a computer that can play the DVD. A) I never mentioned Linux in conjunction with DeCSS B) Whose version of that story are you reading? DeCSS was Open Source. I've NEVER seen a Windows version, I've SEEN the source code, and I've SEEN it run on Linux. Not owning a DVD drive, I've never needed it myself. I gave away my DeCSS T-shirt, which has the DeCSS source printed on it under a Freedom Of Speech banner. C) Your weapons analogy still fails. Neither DeCSS nor anything like it was ever necessary to duplicate DVD disks. Its *function*, as well as its purpose, is the decoding of the header and volume label info of a DVD-ROM, and the decryption and output of the .vob file to stdout. That's _all_. You *could* use it to copy a DVD to disk in unencrypted form, but that would be useless in a mass-distribution piracy operation. This thread has gone way, way afield of anything on-topic, so I suggest, if we're going to pursue it, that we pick a newsgroup to post in. Your call. Doc From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Apr 2 12:43:02 2002 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <3CA98B36.21044.25A837B7@localhost> > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly > functional one of the 1986 bunch? That would be you, Mr. MacCorkle. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 12:44:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <002601c1da44$c63b7060$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, John Chris Wren wrote: > > > > > I do have one theory that applies to PCs and cars: If you fail to shed > > > blood and appease the gods, it will not work when you're done. > > > > Absolutely. Although Sridhar and I have discussed the possibility of > > offering up chicken blood instead.... > > Chris Smith and I were discussing repair techniques offline, and the > above were amongst the discussed techniques. > > However, I prefer erecting totems next to the troublesome devices... Yes. My "Computer Gargoyle" has served me well. Doc From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 2 12:51:19 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <000701c1da55$dc37e310$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at "Apr 2, 2 09:51:23 am" Message-ID: <200204021851.KAA17162@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > And for Ethernet, you can get a box that hangs off the SCSI port > and provides the Ethernet ability.... I've got one of these for my IIsi and it works very nicely. The Mac Plus is still my favourite Macintosh, not least of which because it was the first Mac I ever got to use. This little guy sits next to the 7300+G3 and runs 6.0.8, speaks LocalTalk, and does nothing but play the old Mac game classics. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Emulate your heroes, but not if they're dead. ------------------------------ From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 2 12:47:30 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <07c201c1da07$ab678900$0200a8c0@tm2000> References: <003e01c1da00$bd364470$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020402134730.0123ae88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Torquil MacCorkle III may have mentioned these words: >Pardon the ignorance here, > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one >of the 1986 bunch? > >(What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in >1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) My vote would be the Tandy CoCo3 - multitasking OS, maximum 106x28 screen (under OS-9) 512K Ram, hacked easily to 2M (recently hacked to *64Meg*!!) and other things. My first '386SX with VGA was solely a "nintendo" - when I wanted to do _real work_ I turned back to my trusty CoCo3 - for a lotta years. It debuted in '86, and production ran until '90 or '91, with closeouts still being listed in the catalog until '92, so they're finally _completely_ on-topic... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From torquil at rockbridge.net Tue Apr 2 12:50:54 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: Message-ID: <0a3c01c1da77$555f8010$0200a8c0@tm2000> Heh, Which SGI would actually have an R2000? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > > The Intel-based 386 PC was out, Macintosh was out, Silicon Graphics > > > were building MIPS boxes. > > > > In '86? Not quite. > > > > http://www.sgi.com/features/2002/jan/20th/timeline.html > > Well, maybe: > > http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/workstat/ > > 1986 > > January > * Sun Microsystems first sells shares to the public. [110.219] > * IBM announces the IBM RT Personal Computer, using RISC-based > technology from IBM's "801" project of the mid-70s. It is one of the > first commercially-available 32-bit RISC-based computers. The base > configuration has 1 MB RAM, a 1.2 MB floppy, and 40 MB hard drive, for > US$11,700. With performance of only 2 MIPS, it is doomed from the > beginning. [6] [19] [41.114] [61.129] > * NeXT and Apple Computer reach an out-of-court settlement on Apple > Computer's lawsuit against NeXT. [110.99] > > March > * Silicon Graphics decides to switch from the Motorola 68000 processor > line to MIPS Technologies' RISC processors. [29] > > (month unknown) > * MIPS Technologies unveils the 8-MHz R2000 32-bit CPU. With 110,000 > transistors, it achieves a speed rating of 5 MIPS. [38.75] (1985 > [42.124]) > * MIPS Technologies begins volume shipments of the 8-MHz R2000 > processor. [29] > > June > * Systems incorporating MIPS Technologies' R2000 processor begin > shipping. [89.13] [187] > > > Although I'll probably take SGI's word for it. :) > > > Doc > From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 12:52:58 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Commodore 1701 Monitor, 1741 disk drives References: <200204021841.KAA17306@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3CA9FE0A.56D741C6@rain.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I have a Commodore 1701 Monitor for sale at $15.00 plus shipping. I've > > also got at least three 1741 disk drives for sale at $5.00 each plus > > shipping. > > 1741? Oops, still had the 17 in my mind from the monitor; they are 1541 drives. Thanks for questioning! From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Apr 2 12:54:44 2002 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day Message-ID: <3CA98DF4.26724.25B2EE73@localhost> > The M$ foot gets another dose of lead Ummm, Doc, I think you fell for an April Fools prank. If you view, say, http://www.wehavethewayout.com/xxx you get a standard IIS 404 page, and the HTTP response header say "Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0" I think Microsoft learned its lesion when it took, what, a couple of years to migrate Hotmail off of Unix onto NT/2000? Or did I fall for the prank by responding? :/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From caprio at dcms.com Tue Apr 2 12:37:57 2002 From: caprio at dcms.com (Don Caprio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <200204021837.g32Ibv92020744@dcms.com> I'm new to this news group and the S-100 world so my appologies in advance for what may be stupid or common knowledge questions. I purchased an Imsai 8080 and would like to run some version of CP/M. Should I stick with Imsai's IMDOS, which we know works? If CP/M is doable What version would be the best choice? Does CP/M need some sort of BIOS like the PC? If so where do I get the BIOS source in order to burn an EPROM? Any help, pointers, URL's, etc wouldbe greatly appreciated. Thanks. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 13:07:28 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > In the Betamax case, the US Supreme court said that if there is ANY > legitimate use of a device, then it is legal, even if most uses are > illegal. (Warner Bros said that the primary purpose of a VCR was to make > illegal copies (off the air) of copyrighted movies; Sony said that MOST > VCR owners connect a camera and make home movies (porno?)) If that _was_ Sony's view, the home-porn thing, it would be really ironic. VCRs killed erotica-as-art dead as rocks in the US. Doc From philpem at btinternet.com Tue Apr 2 13:01:37 2002 From: philpem at btinternet.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) References: <200204020629.g326Tbl38201@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000b01c1da7a$377d2c20$0100005a@phoenix> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > Don't eat sandwiches while you're soldering...and wash your hands when > > you're done ;-) Lead in gasoline (petrol over here) was a bigger > > problem. > > But I am not at all convinced that the alternatives that are added to > 'unleaded' petrol are any more healthy... Hmm... Now you've me a bit more to worry about... > > Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. > > Oh _great_. Still, it's a well-known fact that research causes cancer in > rats :-) ROFL! Theoretically, judging by the amount of solder flux I've inhaled over the past few years, I should be either on my deathbed or have some form of cancer by now... Fact: If I listed every single chemical I've ever exposed myself to, it would probably be long enough such that if I printed it out, it would go to the sun and back... And some of the chemicals on that list: Acetic acid (photographic stopbath) Hydroquinone (photographic developer) God-knows-what (photographic fixer) Acetone (nailvarnish remover) Whatever SRBP board dumps when heated to 180 deg C (toner transfer) Ferric Chloride (PCB etchant) Lead (solder) Rosin (solder flux - Maplin probably don't use it in their lousy "Adepto" solder) Xylene (Electrolube lacquer pen) Mercury (glass tiltswitch) Need I go on? Once again, my philosophy is "Screw it - I'm going to snuff it at some point anyway". And if scraping my fingers (and cutting them) with solderjoints is as bad as breathing in solder fumes, I should REALLY be dead by now... Later. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.btinternet.co.uk/ From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 13:09:15 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784315@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > (under OS-9) 512K Ram, hacked easily to 2M (recently hacked > to *64Meg*!!) Ok, when I get a CoCo 3, I want it to have 64M of RAM. How's it done? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 13:12:28 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784316@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Torquil MacCorkle III [mailto:torquil@rockbridge.net] > Which SGI would actually have an R2000? Um, none of them. IIRC, R3000 was the first chip that SGI used from MIPS. There are other systems that use them, including some (I have some r2ks, I think) made by MIPS, themselves. An SGI from that period is something like the IRIS 2000, or possibly by then IRIS 3000, which was very large and based around a motorola 68k chip of some sort. Great machines, but they don't fit your relatively low power requirement, and they're as large as your desk easily. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 2 13:15:18 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day In-Reply-To: <3CA98DF4.26724.25B2EE73@localhost> from "Brian Knittel" at Apr 2, 02 10:54:44 am Message-ID: <200204021915.OAA01264@wordstock.com> And thusly Brian Knittel spake: > > > The M$ foot gets another dose of lead > > Ummm, Doc, I think you fell for an April Fools prank. > If you view, say, http://www.wehavethewayout.com/xxx > you get a standard IIS 404 page, and the HTTP > response header say "Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0" > > I think Microsoft learned its lesion when > it took, what, a couple of years to migrate > Hotmail off of Unix onto NT/2000? > > Or did I fall for the prank by responding? :/ > No you didn't... Yesterday it was being hosted on a FreeBSD servier with Apache... Check out Slashdot at http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/02/130234&mode=thread&tid=122 for the inside skinny... Cheers, Bryan From zaft at azstarnet.com Tue Apr 2 13:17:58 2002 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day In-Reply-To: <3CA98DF4.26724.25B2EE73@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020402121716.028bca40@mail.azstarnet.com> At 10:54 AM 4/2/2002 -0800, you wrote: > > The M$ foot gets another dose of lead > >Ummm, Doc, I think you fell for an April Fools prank. >If you view, say, http://www.wehavethewayout.com/xxx >you get a standard IIS 404 page, and the HTTP >response header say "Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0" This is currently on Slashdot. It's been claimed that this was reported last week, but that M$ quickly switched it to an IIS machine. G From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Apr 1 14:50:27 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:21:34 BST." Message-ID: <200204012050.VAA03905@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > In the UK, just about every colour TV has a SCART socket. This gives you > composite (PAL) colour (or monochrome, of course) and analogue RGB inputs > at TV scan rates. And sound in and out (stereo) and 3 data lines all in the worst connector known to man ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Apr 1 14:43:58 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Apr 2002 20:55:27 BST." Message-ID: <200204012043.VAA03815@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > Don't eat sandwiches while you're soldering...and wash your hands when > > you're done ;-) Lead in gasoline (petrol over here) was a bigger > > problem. > > But I am not at all convinced that the alternatives that are added to > 'unleaded' petrol are any more healthy... > Especially in the higher octane stuff... > > > > Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. > > Oh _great_. Still, it's a well-known fact that research causes cancer in > rats :-) > Flux fumes are not a _major_ risk...other measurable risks include any food that's caramelized - like toast - and green vegetables ;-) The risks however are _very_ small... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Apr 1 14:37:40 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:33:04 CDT." <15528.46576.845805.877598@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200204012037.VAA03730@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Dave McGuire said: > On April 1, Stan Barr wrote: > > I've been soldering now for around 45 years, and I used to do a lot > > of bullet casting so I've handled a *lot* of lead in my time. > > I was taken ill a few years ago with some symptons that could be > > remotely explained by heavy metal poisoning so I was thoroughly tested. > > My lead levels were right on the average for someone living in an > > urban environment. So if you're sensible I don't see a problem. > > Don't eat sandwiches while you're soldering...and wash your hands when > > you're done ;-) Lead in gasoline (petrol over here) was a bigger > > problem. > > What did those heavy metal teste involve, if you don't mind my > asking? Blood tests mostly, I seem to remember (I was getting a lot of those!). They were just precautionary because of my long-term contact with lead, and occasionally mercury many years before. > > > Resin flux is a known carcinogen, so don't breathe the fumes. > > Oh, yuck, I didn't know that...I think I'll invest in one of those > filtered blowers. It's not _very_ dangerous, more of a long-term risk, but enough to be worth taking care... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 13:20:26 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <0a3c01c1da77$555f8010$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > Heh, > > Which SGI would actually have an R2000? The "Professional Iris". bear was right. I did some more googling, and it didn't make it out the door till '87. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 13:30:39 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784317@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Caprio [mailto:caprio@dcms.com] > I purchased an Imsai 8080 and would like to run some version of CP/M. > Should I stick with Imsai's IMDOS, which we know works? If > CP/M is doable > What version would be the best choice? Don't know. Sorry. > Does CP/M need some sort of BIOS like the PC? If so where do > I get the BIOS > source in order to burn an EPROM? This one I can answer. Yes, it does. -- and -- EPROM? Who needs an EPROM? (CP/M BIOS is stored on the floppy and loaded into RAM, generally.) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 2 13:35:00 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day In-Reply-To: <3CA98DF4.26724.25B2EE73@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020402143500.0123ae88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Brian Knittel may have mentioned these words: >> The M$ foot gets another dose of lead > >Ummm, Doc, I think you fell for an April Fools prank. >If you view, say, http://www.wehavethewayout.com/xxx >you get a standard IIS 404 page, and the HTTP >response header say "Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0" Which is very easy to hack... Besides, when I brought it up, it only mentioned IIS (no version) on the "response page" which can say anything, even in Apache. >I think Microsoft learned its lesion when >it took, what, a couple of years to migrate >Hotmail off of Unix onto NT/2000? > >Or did I fall for the prank by responding? :/ No, because I telnetted to port 110 and they're running a slightly modified Qpopper version 2.53 as a POP server, which does not have executibles for Winders anything... And besides, if it wasn't true, why was there this line: "Representatives at Unisys and Microsoft weren't immediately available for comment." They'd be happy to comment if it wasn't running FreeBSD, which if they finally did rid themselves over at Hotmail, they did it very recently... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 2 13:37:15 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020402143715.01257660@mail.30below.com> And I just tested it... the website seems to be down. (Yes, I did try in both Nutscrape & Interment Exploder)... Hasty switchover, mayhaps? Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 13:38:55 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day In-Reply-To: <3CA98DF4.26724.25B2EE73@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Brian Knittel wrote: > > The M$ foot gets another dose of lead > > Ummm, Doc, I think you fell for an April Fools prank. > If you view, say, http://www.wehavethewayout.com/xxx > you get a standard IIS 404 page, and the HTTP > response header say "Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0" Wow. I ran "nmap" (-O option just scans for a platform "signature") against that site yesterday and it was running FreeBSD for sure. Now it's running XP Pro RC1 or RC2, and the page is completely blank. Spin~!!!! Doc From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 2 13:39:02 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: >In the Betamax case, the US Supreme court said that if there is ANY >legitimate use of a device, then it is legal, even if most uses are >illegal. And that's the way it SHOULD be. Prosecute the people for doing something illegal, NOT for owning or using a device that COULD be used for illegal purposes regardless of what they were using it for. -chris From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Apr 2 13:48:54 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020402194854.GH790222@uiuc.edu> Doc said: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > > The Intel-based 386 PC was out, Macintosh was out, Silicon Graphics > > > were building MIPS boxes. > > > > In '86? Not quite. > > > > http://www.sgi.com/features/2002/jan/20th/timeline.html It says they shipped their first RISC workstation in 1987. This was a MIPS-based workstation...the IRIS-4D line. They didn't BUY MIPS until 1992, though... it's a good bet that the "decide to switch from..." line item below means "SGI decides to use the MIPS processor in the IRIS-4D". They didn't actually get the 4D out till the next year... > > Well, maybe: > > http://www.islandnet.com/~kpolsson/workstat/ > > 1986 > > January > * Sun Microsystems first sells shares to the public. [110.219] > * IBM announces the IBM RT Personal Computer, using RISC-based > technology from IBM's "801" project of the mid-70s. It is one of the > first commercially-available 32-bit RISC-based computers. The base > configuration has 1 MB RAM, a 1.2 MB floppy, and 40 MB hard drive, for > US$11,700. With performance of only 2 MIPS, it is doomed from the > beginning. [6] [19] [41.114] [61.129] > * NeXT and Apple Computer reach an out-of-court settlement on Apple > Computer's lawsuit against NeXT. [110.99] > > March > * Silicon Graphics decides to switch from the Motorola 68000 processor > line to MIPS Technologies' RISC processors. [29] > > (month unknown) > * MIPS Technologies unveils the 8-MHz R2000 32-bit CPU. With 110,000 > transistors, it achieves a speed rating of 5 MIPS. [38.75] (1985 > [42.124]) > * MIPS Technologies begins volume shipments of the 8-MHz R2000 > processor. [29] > > June > * Systems incorporating MIPS Technologies' R2000 processor begin > shipping. [89.13] [187] > > > Although I'll probably take SGI's word for it. :) > > > Doc - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 2 13:50:27 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784315@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020402145027.01257660@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Christopher Smith may have mentioned these words: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > >> (under OS-9) 512K Ram, hacked easily to 2M (recently hacked >> to *64Meg*!!) > >Ok, when I get a CoCo 3, I want it to have 64M of RAM. How's >it done? :) http://home.wwdb.org/irgroup/nocan3b.html He's got it to 8Meg here, and said that 16Meg should be no problem... I could have sworn (albeit not with my life) that he had a proto running 64Meg, just to see if it could be done, but with a very quick perusal I couldn't find reference to it again... but I did find reference to RAMZilla, which didn't have a direct link, so I think that was associated with it somehow. Drat... but admittedly, *filling* 64Meg on a CoCo would be a chore in itself, unless you wanted one _big honkin'_ ramdrive. He's also got a wire-wrapped CoCo listed elsewhere on the page... Gotta get back to work, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From red at bears.org Tue Apr 2 14:05:30 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784316@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Torquil MacCorkle III [mailto:torquil@rockbridge.net] > > > Which SGI would actually have an R2000? > > Um, none of them. IIRC, R3000 was the first chip that SGI > used from MIPS. There are other systems that use them, including > some (I have some r2ks, I think) made by MIPS, themselves. Nah, the IP4 and IP4.5 CPUs (as used in the 4D/50, /70, /80, and /85) were both R2000. The IP4 at 12.5 MHz, and the IP4.5 at 16. > An SGI from that period is something like the IRIS 2000, or > possibly by then IRIS 3000, which was very large and based > around a motorola 68k chip of some sort. Yes, the IRIS 2000-series were contemporary in 1986. The 3000-series (and 2000-series Turbo machines) were introduced right around or shortly after then. The 2000-series used MC68010 CPUs. I don't recall the clock rate off the top of my head, but I'd guess in the 8-12 MHz range. The 3000-series used an MC68020, at 16 MHz. Same as the Macintosh II. > Great machines, but they don't fit your relatively low power > requirement, and they're as large as your desk easily. :) Surely not quite that large, though I guess he might have a small desk. (; I have a 3130 (1987) in a fairly unrealistically 'large' configuration, and I don't think it draws any more than 7A at 120V. There are worse machines. It's there in the middle of this (poor) photograph, between two Onyx RE2s (1994) at the far end, and, at the near end, an AS/400 9406-500 (1997) and a Symbolics 3650 (1986). http://www.bears.org/~red/nowhere/house/hall-of-shame.jpeg ok r. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 2 14:06:41 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAA0F51.5090206@dragonsweb.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > To the List: Was the AT&T 3B2 still being made in '86? If so, there's a > good choice for him. I even know where he could get one... > As a former user of killer.dallas.tx.us in '86 or thereabouts, I always wanted to get a 3b2, but it just never worked out for some reason, so I quit looking. I still have a copy of SvsV for the 3b2-300 (I think), though. Only a couple of the AT&T manuals, though. Speaking of Texas, the TI S1500 and the Explorer Lisp machine were both introduced in '86. Also the 1100, which was a '286 multiuser Xenix machine. Was the Sparc '86 or '87? jbdigriz From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 2 14:14:29 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Apple IIe card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's some quick ASCII art: +---------------------------------------+ | GPC | SW | | | _ _ _ ___ _---- _ _ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |=| | |A| |C| |E| | | | | | | | | |=| | |_| |_| |_| | G | |H| | |I| | |=| | _ _ _ | | |_| | |_| | |=| | | | | | | | | | |_|=| | |B| |D| |F| |___| 519 | | |_| |_| |_| S/N026914 | |_________________ ___| ||||||||||||||||||| A - 74LS02 B - 74LS86 C - 74LS08 D - 74LS138 E - 74LS133 F - 74LS279 G - HN462732G EPROM, Label with GPC on it H - 74LS244 I - 74LS374 Bar between H+I is an "A102J" resistor pack (1kohm?) The header is next to I, right angle (pins parallel to board) Two rows of pins, total of 26 pins. SW is a 4-position SPST dip switch -- Pat On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > > I've got a card out of an Apple IIe that has a bunch of 7400 chips on it, > > a 4-switch dip switch, a 26pin header, and an EPROM with a label that says > > "GPC" on it. The board also has "GPC" and "519" silk-screened on the > > comonent side and "Made in Taiwan R.O.C." on the solder side. Google > > doesnt seem to reveal anything useful. > > > > Any ideas what this is? > > Which chips does it have on it? The best guess I can come up with based on > the header, is a floppy disk or printer interface card. Also, how is the > header positioned on the board? > > -Toth > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 2 14:22:05 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day In-Reply-To: References: <3CA98DF4.26724.25B2EE73@localhost> Message-ID: > Wow. I ran "nmap" (-O option just scans for a platform >"signature") against that site yesterday and it was running FreeBSD for >sure. Now it's running XP Pro RC1 or RC2, and the page is completely >blank. > > Spin~!!!! > > Doc Now why would MS (or someone working for them) be running RC1 or RC2 rather than the release version of XP? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Apr 2 14:26:50 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <200204021836.AA00426@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: Cadmium?!? Say what? It's tin-antimony and tin-silver. http://environment.copper.org/e_p_lead.htm The deal is they're cadmium-FREE solders. http://misspiggy.gsfc.nasa.gov/ctre/act/techdocs/solder/leadfree.htm --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Carl Lowenstein > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 13:37 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 > Question)) > > > > From: "Allison" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality > (Was: ZX-81 Question)) > > Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 08:40:54 -0500 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > From: Chad Fernandez > > >How much lead does solder dor electronics contain? I thought only > > >solder for pipes contained lead? > > > > The best alloy is 63/37 63%lead 37% tin. Common variety is 60/40. > > > > The lead is not a hazard by inhalation though some of the fluxes can be. > > It is a contact hazard over time as it can be transfered from the skin > > to lips and injested. Solution, wash hands after using. > > > > Solder for pipes, by mandate has been below 5% lead for years, it > > used to be mostly lead {90/10}. > > But the replacement for lead in plumber's solder is cadmium. And cadmium > is a pretty hazardous material itself. > > carl > -- > carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego > clowenstein@ucsd.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 14:34:34 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > illegal copies (off the air) of copyrighted movies; Sony said that MOST > > VCR owners connect a camera and make home movies (porno?)) > If that _was_ Sony's view, the home-porn thing, it would be really > ironic. VCRs killed erotica-as-art dead as rocks in the US. Sony did NOT mention porn. That was my response to their premise that MOST VCR owners make movies. I sincerely doubt that a significant percentage of VCR owners owned video cameras. NOTE: that is changing with camcorders. "New policy: get the guy with the camcorder first." - Darryl Gates From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 14:38:09 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:53 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <000b01c1da7a$377d2c20$0100005a@phoenix> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Philip Pemberton wrote: > And some of the chemicals on that list: > Acetic acid (photographic stopbath) > Hydroquinone (photographic developer) monomethyl-P-aminophenyl sulfate paradihodroxybenzine > God-knows-what (photographic fixer) sodium thiosulfate > Acetone (nailvarnish remover) (also good for unsticking duper glue) > And if scraping my fingers (and cutting them) with solderjoints is as bad as > breathing in solder fumes, I should REALLY be dead by now... "should"? From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 14:35:49 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784319@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > Surely not quite that large, though I guess he might have a > small desk. (; Judging from the size of the Onyx's, I got the impression that the machine was about twice that size, but admittedly, I haven't seen many good photos of them. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 2 14:39:19 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: <000701c1da63$f1462c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAA16F7.9020000@dragonsweb.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > FYI... > > John Draper was arrested and convicted in Pennsylvania in '77 or '78 > for "possession of a device capable of defrauding the telephone company > of its rightful tarrifs". I met him on his journey back to the left coast after > he got out. > > The device in question? The Apple (autodialing) Modem, which he was > developing for Woz. > > Why? Well, Woz doesn't like to do too much in hardware; he always > like to minimize the logic design and use software to do the job > (a great philosphy for controllers, a louosy one for general purpose > computers). So rather than design the hardware to have fixed-frequency > tones, the software could determine the tones to be used. Of course, > that meant you could select the ESS interswitch "MF" tones instead of > DTMF. > > Today, virtually every modem with a Rockwell chipset has this feature. > > Has Rockwell been locked up? Unlikely... > > -dq > > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > Woz made it to the East Coast and the Deep South once and gave a talk at an Apple UG meeting in our town. I managed to be there, and his collaboration with Draper on that modem, and precisely regarding those features, was one of his talking points. It certainly gave one something to think about. Of course, Operation Sundevil was ratcheting into high-gear at the time, which I was pretty much blithely unaware of, despite hanging out on some of the same boards with some of the same people that, well, you know. So it's a good thing I'm an honest fellow. There was this guy who claimed to be with Unisys called my board, for instance, who seemed desperate for me to set up a BBS with a shiny new Unisys 486 the company would provide for me to "beta-test" and demo. What was up with this? At the time, the big Unisys customers in the area were the local army base and a lot of banks, and we had already run into snags running the board from a buddy's house on post. I didn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth, and I gleaned a lot about Burroughs OS'es from him, but frankly, it smelled. I never did figure out what was going on with that, exactly, except that other people knew about it. jbdigriz From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 2 14:47:53 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <004501c1da87$aa97cdc0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Don Caprio >I purchased an Imsai 8080 and would like to run some version of CP/M. >Should I stick with Imsai's IMDOS, which we know works? If CP/M is doable >What version would be the best choice? Cpm is doable on ANY 8080/8085/z80/z180/z280 machine with the minimum of: 20k of ram {16k for V1.4} Console IO device {serial, parallel or video} Some form of block addressable mass storage device {disk, tape or rom/ramdisk} Nice to have: Boot prom/eprom (doesnt have to be big) Second port for printer hard disk >Does CP/M need some sort of BIOS like the PC? If so where do I get the BIOS >source in order to burn an EPROM? CP/M does (invented) the idea of a bios but.... it is not resident firmware as in PCs. It's loaded at boot time from mass storage. A BIOS for the DISK CONTROLLER and CONSOLE IO may or may not exist depending on YOUR specific configuration. S100 system could vary a lot and were not anything close to plug and play. However, you could write your own bios and there are plenty of examples out there as well as the docs needed. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 14:51:41 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: OT: MS/Unisys Have Made My Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now why would MS (or someone working for them) be running RC1 or RC2 rather > than the release version of XP? I dunno. But nmap is usually accurate, and I'm running a very recent release. ~# nmap -O www.wehavethewayout.com Starting nmap V. 2.54BETA31 ( www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) ^[[A^[[AInteresting ports on www.wehavethewayout.com (130.94.214.143): (The 1162 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: filtered) Remote operating system guess: Windows XP Professional Release Candidate 1 or 2 What's really odd is that port 5900 is open -- the usual port for VNC's http clients. VNC is an opensource remote desktop app a la Exceed. You can run the client as a stand-alone app or in a browser. There are a LOT of open ports I wouldn't expect on a webserver. But then, this IS MicroSoft. Doc From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 14:54:57 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: RJ-45 Sockets/Covers/??? References: <000701c1da63$f1462c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <3CAA16F7.9020000@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3CAA1AA1.987FE924@rain.org> I'm not sure what to call these things, but they are the covers for electrical boxes. There are a total of six covers, two with 2 RJ-45 connectors and four with 1 RJ-45 connector. Each of the RJ-45 connectors have 8 pins, and these are the covers used when wiring up a house/office/??? for a network. $5.00 plus shipping for all. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 2 15:02:02 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <200204020421.g324LRY20571@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? > > Well, since I don't think DEC was still making PDP-10's at that point, that > means you're limited to various PDP-11's, VAXen, and the Macintosh. IBM made a wide variety of good stuff back then. Peace... Sridhar From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 15:05:34 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 Message-ID: <000501c1da8a$260ad270$c3eeffcc@Shadow> > > > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > > > > > Now do you one with or with out TUBES? > > > Looking a list here http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/timeline.html > > 1956 was a great year for TUBE computers. > > 1960 was a great year Transistor computers. ( Hmm I could get a PDP-1 ) > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box > of some sort, or possibly: > "DECStation" > PDP-11/60A > VAX-11/780 (...but what would I run on it? It would have to be > RSTS/E, since VMS 1.0 hadn't been released, probably.) I was looking at VMS manuals sometime in 1978... we were evaluating the HP3000, Prime 550, VAX 11/780, and DG Eclipse (Campus Computer Usage Committee). Prime one. Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... -dq From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 15:09:51 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <3CA9E424.6030700@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20020402210951.28855.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ron Hudson wrote: > > Anybody got a spare ENIAC ? I think I left it in my jeans pocket and it shrank in the wash... ;-) > Perhaps an abacus? Several. Software Results used to give out a "People Who Count" award. You got your name added to the plaque in the front office, your own mounted abacus to stick on your own wall, and a cash bonus. I have the box with the last two or three abacuses - mixed red and black beads. I also have a slide rule mounted on a board over my door that says IN CASE OF EMERGENCY... Yes, I know how to use both. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 15:19:31 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Special debugging techniques (was RE: Shoddy Hardware) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020402211931.37239.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Smith wrote: > I still maintain the usefulness of runestones, incense, and rituals > involving chant and the drawing of "signs of power" around the device. I have this unfinished craft project - a "debugging aid" - take a craft gourd (dried and hollow), insert a few teaspoons of clipped out resistors, capacitors and transistors, close up. Paint exterior with bright red, bone white and gloss black enamel paint. Add a few leather thongs with pony beads to the small end of the gourd, and attach red and black turkey feathers to the loose end of the thongs. Place on a shelf and remove when doing serious debugging, shaking it at the screen*. Best done in the presence of witnesses. When the solution to the problem at hand is discovered, especially if it's a few critical magic words, 40-80 chars at most, inscribe along the body of the gourd with a white "paint marker", in a spiral, starting at the blunt end, as a reminder for next time. If the witness asks what you are doing, just casually reply, "debugging". I have the gourd. I have the paint. I have the beads. I have the thong. I have the discrete components. They have yet to reach proximity. Too busy coding. ;-) -ethan * chanting optional __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 15:25:57 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <200204020421.g324LRY20571@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20020402212557.32263.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? > > Well, since I don't think DEC was still making PDP-10's at that point, > that means you're limited to various PDP-11's, VAXen, and the Macintosh. DECmate? I think the DM-III(+) was sold until 1994. I'd have to look up what model was contemporary to 1986; I'd guess the DECmate-II. The question is, though, is this thread about computers you could walk down the street and _buy_ in 1986, or ones that were _introduced_ in 1986? The second is a much smaller list, naturally. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 2 15:25:30 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <20020401215848.A19335@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > > Pardon the ignorance here, > > > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one > > of the 1986 bunch? > > Well, some of them are ancestors of modern machines -- the Mac II of the > modern Macs, the Kaypro 2000 of modern PC clones (I believe), and the > RS/6000 of modern IBM UNIX workstations. So you could choose the most > compatible ones. Modern IBM UNIX workstations *are* RS/6000's. The RS/6000 wasn't out back then. The IBM RT/PC was the UNIX workstation from IBM at the time. PEace... Sridhar From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 15:34:53 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: "New" PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <005601c1d9d7$12922c10$7ded9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20020402213453.34647.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- ajp166 wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > >What else would be "useful" from a DECmate board? I agree about > > > Depends on if it's a DMII or DMIII. Fair enough. > The dmII had less integration so the 6120, eproms and likely a 6121 plus > UARTs are available. The EPROMs themselves are not worth recycling (from the standpoint that they are more valuable with DM firmware than as ordinary blanks). The contents might be worth archving (not that they aren't already). I was asking the question from the perspective of what's worth the effort to tear out of a DECmate that you can't get elsewhere, easier, not so much from the standpoint of what's in a DECmate that you could find _some_ use for. I was kinda trying to point out that desoldering a DECmate after robbing the CPU is a less than satsifying activity, but I was not trying to _insist_ that it was so. The UARTs are 6402s, right? Not an uncommon chip outside of the Wintel world. Still available in quantity, AFAIK. Would the 6121 have any application outside of a DECmate? It's part of the wierd console emulation on the DM, isn't it? > The DMIII it will be the 6120 and maybe a 6121 plus 2882 and the eproms, > though I'm less sure as it's been a long time since I've had to open one. What's the 2882 do? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 2 15:46:20 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Vector brochure Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020402164620.00805410@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anybody want a 1976 brochure from vector? I'd prefer that it go to someone that will scan it and post it on the net. The brochure is six pages long and covers the well known S-100 vector boards, Slit-N-Wrap tools, ribbon cable making tools and other computer building goodies from 1976 and includes prices. there's also a price change sheet dated 1978. Picture at . Joe From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 15:37:27 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15530.9367.835362.814516@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 2, Christopher Smith wrote: > AT&T Unix PC. 512k to 4M of ram [usually 1M], 40 to 60M hard drive, > all in one system with a monochrome green screen, removable keyboard, > and 3 button mouse. It also had a 5.25" floppy. It ran Unix SystemV > R 3.0 or 3.5, I vaguely remember a port of some other system to run > on it. Check some of the web pages you can find. There was a built > in graphical windowing system, dynamically loadable drivers, and if > you could get the ethernet board, or extra serial ports, you could > run multi-user configurations. It could read/write (through special > bundled software) MS-DOS disks, and there was also a DOS board for it > with an 8088 CPU or something like that, and some RAM to let it > actually run DOS, and DOS apps. What wonderful machines these are. The first ones, though, shipped with 10MB drives, not 40MB, and it was SYSVR2, not 3. I sold these machines at a computer store when I was in high school, and later had one of my own as my first real UNIX machine. Stupidly I sold it many years ago. Thanks to the assistance of a fellow lister (hi Mark!) I finally have one now, which I will keep forever. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 15:53:04 2002 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <000501c1da8a$260ad270$c3eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <095401c1da90$c80a0450$9101a8c0@mn> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 2:05 PM Subject: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 > ...snip...snip...snip... > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box > > of some sort, or possibly: ...snip...snip...snip > > Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I > can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the > IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... > > > > -dq > Birth year computers.... Hmmm. Well, I guess I'll have to look up the info on the IBM 650... Larger than a breadbox? (heh... :-) A desk? (must be, the 1130 I used was large desk sized but twice as tall...) A house? (more like it, I'm sure...) But wait! www.google.com enter IBM 650 and the first link is great: http://www.users.nwark.com/~rcmahq/jclark/ibm650.htm Heck, I could fit one in my garage -- it couldn't weigh more than a few tons... Just need room for the O26 keypunch... And have a larger electrical service put in... I'm sure someone has one in their back yard that they would want to get rid of... Bill From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 15:53:21 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA8F36D.8FBE1623@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20020402215321.59341.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup costs and the per-sq-in > > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or Unibus-sized 4-layer > > board, complete with gold fingers!)... > > Out here the only parts store is Radio Shack or wait 6 months to get to > a larger city. Thus mail order and internet shopping works for me. Here in a city of 10E+06 people, about all we have left is Rat Shack, too. When I was a kid, there were lots of surplus places and new parts places to shop at (c. 1978). They've all gone mail-order and shut up their sales floors for cost reasons. I do most of my component shopping online these days (BG Micro, Mouser, Digikey, Allied...) > With wire wrap I would spend too much time hunting for bad > wires/connections or paying $$$ for parts. A PCB is a simple upload of > my gerber and drill files. Simple upload, yes, but for larger designs, it starts to get pricey again until you make things in quanity. I did several runs of a two- layer Zorro-II board (GG2 Bus+) - q. 100, they cost around $15-$20 each, including spreading out the setup charges. That's with a lot of gold (100-finger Zorro edge, plus a full 16-bit ISA edge), and a foot-long PCB. If only I hadn't ordered that last run of boards... :-( At q. 25, they were significantly more expensive. At q. 5, ISTR they were over $50 each. > > My last project is a good case-study for expense vs. time. I wanted to > > replicate a scoreboard from a Dragon's Lair/Space Ace... > > pictures at http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/retrogaming/ > > nice (see ps at bottom) Thanks. I am proud of it, even if it is a simple project. It is a one- for-one, mechanically sound replica of the original. I did the parts layout all from measuring digital pictures with a ruler. :-) > > ...I chose not to pay to register a > > demo-ware layout package so I could make a 6"x9" board. > > More like 3" x 4". Easytrax (dos) is still out there and runs fine (and > free) if you don't need autorouting. I think you missed my point... yes, the demoware packages let you lay out a 3"x4" board for free. Because of existing mounting holes and the physical area needed to contain several rows of 7-segment displays, my board needed to be about 6" x 9". For this and other classic projects I'm working on, 3"x4" does _not_ cut it. I am planning on things like DEC quad and hex-height boards - measured in square feet, effectively, instead of square inches (~0.8 sq ft - ~1.5 sq ft) To make one, it's physically cheaper to buy a surplus DEC prototype board and WW it. To make 5, PCBs start to look real good, even if they are $200 for a multi- layer, gold-edged, foot-square board. > > If I were to > > make the new PDP-8 design that kicked off this whole thread, I'm not > > sure if I'd get professional boards (~$200/set, in small quantities, > > according to the designer, for a couple of 4-layer boards) or I'd > > point-to-point it. > > Is 4 layer boards really needed? It's handy for signal isolation, and that's the design that Bob did the layout for. All of the professional Qbus and Unibus boards I've worked on in the past were 4 or 6 layer designs for good reason. You can only cram things in so tight in two layers. If you are going to go for an integrated computer on a 4"x6" board using DIP components, you'll be looking at 4 layers before you know it. If you increase the size of the board and keep things under 8MHz, 2 layers (and a sensible layout) will probably be fine. A 1MHz 6502 design will probably not require multi-layer unless you want it the size of a pack of playing cards. > I like the PDP-8 but am unhappy that a 12/24 cpu never hit the > monolithic chip market. That would have been fun. > Well I don't but remember with out the proper I/O a pdp-8 is NO FUN. True. I already know how to make a front panel pulse the lights. Driving a TTY is a lot more fun. > www.bgmicro.com > PS. Just after I finished writing this I looked up the scoreboard and > noticed you use BG micro already. Yep. Been a happy customer for years. Thinking of placing an order this week. Cheers, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 2 15:50:41 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <002601c1da44$c63b7060$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > I do have one theory that applies to PCs and cars: If you fail to shed > > > blood and appease the gods, it will not work when you're done. > > > > Absolutely. Although Sridhar and I have discussed the possibility of > > offering up chicken blood instead.... > > Chris Smith and I were discussing repair techniques offline, and the > above were amongst the discussed techniques. > > However, I prefer erecting totems next to the troublesome devices... Do they have to be phallic? Huhhhuhuuuuuhuhuhuhuhuh, you said, "erect." Peace... Sridhar From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 22:02:00 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available Message-ID: Hello all, A bit too new to be on topic, but... I was scrounging through some stuff yesterday, and unearthed a set of original diskettes for an IBM PS/1. One of the disks is labelled "IBM PS/1 Recovery Diskette" There are 13 more diskettes labelled "IBM Original PS/1 Software, Diskette X of 13", where X of course goes from 1 to 13 :-) They are also labelled "Version 2.2" and the latest copyright date is 1993. If anyone wants these diskettes, first come, first served, no charge except shipping... I did test them by copying them onto my hard drive, so they are readable... Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 16:14:45 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: VTech PreComputer 1000 References: Message-ID: <3CAA2D55.A3F76462@rain.org> In the continuing "search and destroy" mission, I have a VTech Pre Computer 1000 with the General Knowledge cartridge available for $5.00 plus shipping for 3 pounds from Santa Barbara, zip code 93105. This is just the computer and cartridge, or box or instructions. Priority Mail will run $5.20 in the US plus any insurance if you want it ($1.10) From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 2 16:20:34 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX Message-ID: Ok. I wonder what would happen if I stuck a DWBUA in the BI cage of my VAX 7000-650, and added a UNIBUS cabinet, then I were to take a Qniverter and add a Qbus framebuffer? Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 16:28:20 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178434E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > What wonderful machines these are. The first ones, though, shipped > with 10MB drives, not 40MB, and it was SYSVR2, not 3. I don't doubt the 10M disk, but I've never seen anything below 3.0 for it. I have 3.5 on mine, with a 3.0 dev kit. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 2 16:34:32 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784315@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CAA31F8.36568797@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > > > (under OS-9) 512K Ram, hacked easily to 2M (recently hacked > > to *64Meg*!!) > > Ok, when I get a CoCo 3, I want it to have 64M of RAM. How's > it done? :) Check Here! http://home.wwdb.org/irgroup/index.shtml -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From blacklord at telstra.com Tue Apr 2 16:40:07 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <2afc8c2b2699.2b26992afc8c@bigpond.com> > > Amiga. > And it's the best one (subjective) out of all the others so far mentioned. An A1000 can still happily run just about anything you can throw at it, plus it's emminently expandable. cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Apr 2 16:47:23 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:25:30PM -0500 References: <20020401215848.A19335@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20020402144722.A20636@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 04:25:30PM -0500, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > Pardon the ignorance here, > > > > > > But which would you guys consider to be the most modernly functional one > > > of the 1986 bunch? > > > > Well, some of them are ancestors of modern machines -- the Mac II of the > > modern Macs, the Kaypro 2000 of modern PC clones (I believe), and the > > RS/6000 of modern IBM UNIX workstations. So you could choose the most > > compatible ones. > > Modern IBM UNIX workstations *are* RS/6000's. The RS/6000 wasn't out back > then. The IBM RT/PC was the UNIX workstation from IBM at the time. Someone mentioned RS/6000s and I just assumed that was right. Oops. -- Derek From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Apr 2 15:58:22 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) References: <003801c1d9fe$18727780$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3CAA297E.D1C02D0F@gifford.co.uk> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > Now that my Prime 2455 is fully operational again, ... > Ok, go for broke, swap in the remaining CPU board set, replace > newly-provided CPU board interconnects (top hats) with my old > ones... Thank you! Thank you! You've solved a twenty-year-old puzzle for me and all the other Prime hackers at Westfield College. You see, one day we were bored enough to read the Prime 750's log book (must've been a day when the power failed or something) and the Prime engineer had written the inscrutable: Rotated top hats Now, we didn't know what these gadgets were, but rotating them seemed to be crucial to making our beloved Prime work, so we just accepted it. Every time an engineer called, we'd look at each other and say "He's here to rotate the top hats again". Now, at last, we know what they are! Any chance of a photo? -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 2 16:55:05 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) References: <20020402215321.59341.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CAA36C9.8A7384D1@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > While I can recommend a real PCB if the setup costs and the per-sq-in > > > costs are not killing you (price an Omnibus or Unibus-sized 4-layer > > > board, complete with gold fingers!)... > > > > Out here the only parts store is Radio Shack or wait 6 months to get to > > a larger city. Thus mail order and internet shopping works for me. > > Here in a city of 10E+06 people, about all we have left is Rat Shack, > too. When I was a kid, there were lots of surplus places and new > parts places to shop at (c. 1978). They've all gone mail-order and > shut up their sales floors for cost reasons. > > I do most of my component shopping online these days (BG Micro, Mouser, > Digikey, Allied...) > > > With wire wrap I would spend too much time hunting for bad > > wires/connections or paying $$$ for parts. A PCB is a simple upload of > > my gerber and drill files. > > Simple upload, yes, but for larger designs, it starts to get pricey > again until you make things in quanity. I did several runs of a two- > layer Zorro-II board (GG2 Bus+) - q. 100, they cost around $15-$20 each, > including spreading out the setup charges. That's with a lot of gold > (100-finger Zorro edge, plus a full 16-bit ISA edge), and a foot-long > PCB. If only I hadn't ordered that last run of boards... :-( At q. 25, > they were significantly more expensive. At q. 5, ISTR they were over > $50 each. But could you hand wrap 100 boards. In some ways the old PC's like the PDP-8 were more dence than today's computers, comparing the size of the active parts with the overall pc size.The wire wrapping of Flip/Chips made for some dense computers. > I think you missed my point... yes, the demoware packages let you lay > out a 3"x4" board for free. What is the point? I don't use the demo stuff. The ONE free PCB package for dos works well for me. > If you increase the > size of the board and keep things under 8MHz, 2 layers (and a sensible > layout) will probably be fine. A 1MHz 6502 design will probably not > require multi-layer unless you want it the size of a pack of playing > cards. If I remember the APPLE II/g? was the first computer to use really fine tracks for a PCB layout. It is the EDGE speed of your logic not the clock speed that determines your noise factor. Also a BIG board is easy for people who are all thumbs. > That would have been fun. Well I can sell the plans cheap... No I can't , they are free. > > Well I don't but remember with out the proper I/O a pdp-8 is NO FUN. > > True. I already know how to make a front panel pulse the lights. > Driving a TTY is a lot more fun. I don't have one, and PC emulating a terminal is no fun. > Yep. Been a happy customer for years. Thinking of placing an order > this week. But some parts you still need to get elsewhere. A 20 pin PLCC socket and IDC headers come to mind from my last project. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Apr 2 15:58:22 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) References: <003801c1d9fe$18727780$55efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3CAA297E.D1C02D0F@gifford.co.uk> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > Now that my Prime 2455 is fully operational again, ... > Ok, go for broke, swap in the remaining CPU board set, replace > newly-provided CPU board interconnects (top hats) with my old > ones... Thank you! Thank you! You've solved a twenty-year-old puzzle for me and all the other Prime hackers at Westfield College. You see, one day we were bored enough to read the Prime 750's log book (must've been a day when the power failed or something) and the Prime engineer had written the inscrutable: Rotated top hats Now, we didn't know what these gadgets were, but rotating them seemed to be crucial to making our beloved Prime work, so we just accepted it. Every time an engineer called, we'd look at each other and say "He's here to rotate the top hats again". Now, at last, we know what they are! Any chance of a photo? -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 2 16:59:10 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706653F@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > >Ok. I wonder what would happen if I stuck a DWBUA in the BI cage of my >VAX 7000-650, and added a UNIBUS cabinet, then I were to take a Qniverter >and add a Qbus framebuffer? I imagine you'd be carted off to the funny farm :-) I assume you were not serious but just in case ... Your path to the Qbus widgets would be: LSB->XMI->BI->UNIBUS->QBUS which I suspect is a tad tortuous even for the normally well designed DEC stuff. Bus adapters generally only work well one bus down. Beyond that you start to hit timing issues and other such trivia such as locking. As an aside, surely with a little bit of thought you could get TURBOchannel and PCI involved in there? How hard can it be? Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 2 16:59:27 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784350@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > And it's the best one (subjective) out of all the others so far > mentioned. An A1000 can still happily run just about anything you can > throw at it, plus it's emminently expandable. ... if you can find the expansions. :) Personally I like the Intergraph on my list. Never seen one, but if I had, I would own one by now. As for a more common system (more common than the Intergraph, not the Amiga), a UnixPC with 1 meg of ram, and maybe 60MB of disk will give you access to a really decent subset of available Unix (and possibly MS-DOS) software. It will also have a decent development environment, given the installation of a dev kit. On the other hand, the Atari ST plays quite a few more games. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 17:08:33 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Special debugging techniques (was RE: Shoddy Hardware) In-Reply-To: <20020402211931.37239.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doesn't anybody use a rubber chicken anymore? From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 2 17:11:37 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: BK Logic Probe, DP-21 References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706653F@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CAA3AA9.5898FA5E@rain.org> This is the BK Precision Logic Probe P/N DP-21. It is a 20 MHz unit, has seen VERY little use, is in excellent condition, and includes the original box and instructions! The current Digi-Key Catalogue price is $35.00 This one is only $10.00 plus $3.50 Priority Mail Shipping in the US. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 17:13:29 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <20020402144722.A20636@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > Someone mentioned RS/6000s and I just assumed that was right. Oops. Not an unreasonable assumption. Some of mine _look_ 20 years old... Doc From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 2 17:18:52 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > > > Chris Smith and I were discussing repair techniques offline, and the > > above were amongst the discussed techniques. > > > However, I prefer erecting totems next to the troublesome devices... > > I still maintain the usefulness of runestones, incense, and rituals > involving chant and the drawing of "signs of power" around the device. Right! Just remember that when skill, cunning, and daring come face to face with luck and superstition, it is luck and superstition every time! - don > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 17:19:53 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020402231953.70052.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Ok. I wonder what would happen if I stuck a DWBUA in the BI cage of my > VAX 7000-650, and added a UNIBUS cabinet, then I were to take a Qniverter > and add a Qbus framebuffer? You'd probably get bus timeouts. Does the DWBUA work in a VAX 7000? I know it became an issue in machines newer than the 8800. I do not recall where it falls off the trolley. The tech manual for the DWBUA describes its requirement for Unibus boards. I presume that *if* the DWBUA works as expected in the 7000 to begin with, *and* the Qniverter doesn't violate any of the requirements of the DWBUA, it would work, if the device driver didn't mind being stuffed into an 18-bit backplane vs 22-bit (and the mapping registers being different, etc., from Qbus to Unibus). Analyzing how an RL11 vs an RLV21 is set up by the VMS driver might be an interesting exercise to see how it might behave. I presume the register model between those two controllers is virtually the same; the difference would be the buses and the mapping registers. So presuming the hardware didn't glitch, you might be able to make it work if the software doesn't throw a rod (or if you can modify/replace the driver). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 17:37:35 2002 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) Message-ID: >From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: "ClassicCmp List" >Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) >Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:03 -0500 > >Now that my Prime 2455 is fully operational again, I >want to thank everyone who offered advice here. After >giving up on repairing the power supply, I decided to >buy one. I assuming you don't need the one I have set aside? SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Apr 2 17:52:34 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAA4442.4FC9BC16@tiac.net> The Mac! Eeek. How about a nice Apollo workstation? "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > > Pardon the ignorance here, > > > > But which would you guys consider to be the most > > modernly functional one of the 1986 bunch? > > > > (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in > > 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) > > I do believe most of us had that figured out. > > This list isn't really about modern computers. But hands down, the > Macintosh would be the most modern of the bunch. Although it's > not color-capable, the user interface is has is what Bill Gates stole > from Apple and used to build Windows. So you'd be most at home > there. > > I've been a Mac advocate from the beginning, but for my own purposes, > computers with operating systems that provide a text-mode shell, such > as the *nixen and its derivitives, VMS, Primos, DOS, are preferable. As > someone with a tiny bit of a math background, the ability you gain with > a sophisticated command-line environment is great. In most of these > operating systems, you can string commands togther like factors in > an equation, and perform complex transformations on sets of files all > at once. Hard to do that with a Graphical User Interface. > > To the List: Was the AT&T 3B2 still being made in '86? If so, there's a > good choice for him. I even know where he could get one... > > -dq > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 2 19:08:08 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Special debugging techniques (was RE: Shoddy Hardware) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm. I thought you only needed one of those when posting to the Scary Devil Monestary... g. On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Doesn't anybody use a rubber chicken anymore? > -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Apr 2 18:07:15 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available Message-ID: In a message dated 4/2/02 5:05:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, r_beaudry@hotmail.com writes: << A bit too new to be on topic, but... I was scrounging through some stuff yesterday, and unearthed a set of original diskettes for an IBM PS/1. >> do you know what model PS/1? old computers, old cars and sundry items www.nothingtodo.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 18:10:10 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <3CAA4442.4FC9BC16@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Bob Shannon wrote: > The Mac! > > Eeek. Well, after watching one of my friends fight with a G4 running MacOS 9.1 Saturday, just to bid on some eBay stuff, I understand better why the early Macs are so revered. AFAICT, Apple is still trying to get back to that level of functionality. I'm folding my tent, dousing the fire, and marching double-time now. Doc From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 18:27:28 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <000501c1daa6$599667a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> > > The Mac! > > Eeek. > > How about a nice Apollo workstation? D'Oh! Yeah, what he said, too... -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 18:35:52 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: (Private, To SteveRob, Using List, Direct Contact Fails) Message-ID: <000b01c1daa7$85f00da0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> > >From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" > >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >To: "ClassicCmp List" > >Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) > >Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 23:23:03 -0500 > > > >Now that my Prime 2455 is fully operational again, I > >want to thank everyone who offered advice here. After > >giving up on repairing the power supply, I decided to > >buy one. > > I assuming you don't need the one I have set aside? Steve- You're one of several listers with whom it appears I have read-only contact with. My replies never seem to get through. If your PSU is a TLA10113-001, no, I don't need it; OTOH, if it's a 7778, then I *might* be interested, they are apparantly rather rare now. They put out the +/- 16VDC used by the older memory cards. There will come a day when someone will need one, and no more will be found. Can you at least check the numbers on it for me, so I can make an intelligent decision? Ok, then at least an *informed* decision... ;) -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:25:04 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA8F36D.8FBE1623@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 1, 2 04:55:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/f7e60bbd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:03:03 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020402003216.BBNS21410.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Apr 1, 2 07:33:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/500a05a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:05:03 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <200204012043.VAA03815@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Apr 1, 2 09:43:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/ab5fbf1b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:10:48 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <200204012050.VAA03905@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Apr 1, 2 09:50:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/5c75652a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:40:49 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "John Chris Wren" at Apr 1, 2 11:24:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 886 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/4b327427/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 16:44:50 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020401.195249.-333301.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Apr 1, 2 07:52:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020402/82e63271/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 17:26:54 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Apr 1, 2 10:40:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/05f06217/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 17:45:08 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) In-Reply-To: <3CA9DFFF.12014.22CDDC7F@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 2, 2 04:44:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/c607fe1d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 18:32:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Apple IIe card In-Reply-To: from "pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com" at Apr 2, 2 03:14:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1143 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/a7d65786/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 18:08:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:54 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <0a3c01c1da77$555f8010$0200a8c0@tm2000> from "Torquil MacCorkle III" at Apr 2, 2 01:50:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/f236c734/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 18:14:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <000b01c1da7a$377d2c20$0100005a@phoenix> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 2, 2 08:01:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1430 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/e2a426ae/attachment.ksh From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 18:43:14 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Pr1marily Contented (Longish) Message-ID: <001101c1daa8$8e23db40$c3eeffcc@Shadow> > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > Now that my Prime 2455 is fully operational again, > ... > > Ok, go for broke, swap in the remaining CPU board set, replace > > newly-provided CPU board interconnects (top hats) with my old > > ones... > > Thank you! Thank you! You've solved a twenty-year-old puzzle > for me and all the other Prime hackers at Westfield College. > You see, one day we were bored enough to read the Prime 750's > log book (must've been a day when the power failed or something) > and the Prime engineer had written the inscrutable: > > Rotated top hats > > Now, we didn't know what these gadgets were, but rotating them > seemed to be crucial to making our beloved Prime work, so we > just accepted it. Every time an engineer called, we'd look at > each other and say "He's here to rotate the top hats again". > > Now, at last, we know what they are! Any chance of a photo? heh, believe it or not, there are two different, unreleated things called "top hats" in some Primes... In my 2455, at the top, underneath the removable top skin, is a small +/- 12VDC power supply, called the "top hat PSU". But the 750 wouldn't have had those... in the link below, they are the three small rectangular vertically arranged; my 2455's boards run vertical in the cage: http://members.iglou.com/dougq/p2455/ICS&Cipher.html OTOH, in the 750, the boards went in horizontally, so you'd have seen the top hats left-to-right (at least that's how they were in the P400 and the P650). Glad I could help! Regards, -doug q From blacklord at telstra.com Tue Apr 2 18:52:56 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <2b58452b4ea5.2b4ea52b5845@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hildebrand Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2002 3:52 am Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > You forgot the first Amiga (1000)! And the commodore 64, Plus 4, and > commodore 16. > > The C64 was released in 1982 (20 this year!, The Plus/4 & C16 were (I think) 1984, so none of those qualify. The A1000 does though.... cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From red at bears.org Tue Apr 2 19:07:54 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: 3600 & 3640 at SRI surplus auction through 4/5 Message-ID: Spotted on another list. Reply to Mabry directly. ok r. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 16:10:51 -0800 From: Mabry Tyson Reply-To: slug@AI.SRI.COM To: "slug@ai.sri.com" Subject: [SLUG] 3600 & 3640 at SRI surplus auction through 4/5 I just wandered through SRI's surplus auction. They've got a 3600 (s/n 583) and 3645 there, each very full of cards. Honestly, I don't know whether they work or not. These were machines that were government owned machines that are being auctioned off. I didn't notice any cables, monitors, keyboards, or mice with them. The auction ends on the 5th. If you want to bid, let me know and I'll give you further info, but I won't bid for you. From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 2 19:08:18 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > If find a peecee screw that is still chewing or "seizing up" touch > > bit of oil to the thread. Fixed for good. > > Running a tap down the threaded hole and a die (correctly adjusted) over > the screw works wonders as well. Of course it's better to buy good > quality screws in the first place, but it's not always possible to > replace the hole (particularly not if it's in a PC case or a disk drive, > or something. > > -tony An approach that I find to be of value in preserving the tapped holes in sheet metal is to insert the screw and rotate the screwdriver in the `unscrew' direction until I feel the screw thread drop into the thread in the sheet metal. Only then do I rotate the screwdriver in the `tighten' direction. This pretty well eliminates cross-threading and ultimately stripping out the hole. Also, remember that it is only sheet metal, so don't tighten too much. - don From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 2 19:10:22 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I've been building PCs since XTs came out, and I cannot think of a single > > time that I've reamed out a screw, with the exception of one of those very > > fine pitch thread screws the CDROM manufacturers seem to like. If you're > > re-threading the hole everytime, perhaps you should take it a little easier > > on the poor PC case :-) > > I've found it often helps to turn the screw 'backwards' > (counterclockwise) until you feel the threads click into place, then > tighten it. > > In the case of self-tapping screws it generally pervents the screw from > starting a new thread (which, if done enough times means there's no metal > left). In the case of large-diameter fine pitch threads (like lens > retaining rings in cameras, OK, off-topic, but I can't think of such a > thread in a computer), it helps prevent cross-threading. > > I assumed this trick was well-known, but perhaps not. > > -tony > Sheesh! I should have read one more message! - don From notwax at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 19:46:27 2002 From: notwax at yahoo.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200204021203.HAA05973@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20020403014627.2137.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Wayne M. Smith spake: > > > > > > > > DeCSS was a huge red herring. It was > originally developed to _watch_ > > > DVD movies, not _copy_ them. > > > > The reason why something is developed is really > not that relevant to how it may ultimately be used > -- we (the US) build weapons of > > mass destruction as a deterrent to keep the peace, > but they're clearly capable of great evil. If > you're referring to the that DeCSS > > was developed because there was no Linux DVD > player, this story is apocryphal. DeCSS is a > Windows-only executable file; there never > > was a Linux version, and the claim that it was > developed as a Windows file because Linux didin't > support the DVD file structure is > > nonsense. Moreover, if you need the windows OS to > decrypt a DVD, then you already have a computer that > can play the DVD. > > > > No no no! The source for DeCSS was released and a > Windows executable was made > from that.... T-shirts have even been made with the > source code printed on > them. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > I guess I should have been a bit clearer. The DeCSS lawsuit was not about posting source code, but about posting a Windows executable version which was known as "DeCSS." As stated by 2600 Enterprises in its post-hearing brief: "Jon Johansen testified that . . . he wrote the program for Windows rather than for Linux in order to test it properly because Linux did not then support the UDF file system used on DVDs." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 19:50:40 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> > > In the case of self-tapping screws it generally pervents the screw from > > starting a new thread (which, if done enough times means there's no metal > > left). In the case of large-diameter fine pitch threads (like lens > > retaining rings in cameras, OK, off-topic, but I can't think of such a > > thread in a computer), it helps prevent cross-threading. > > > > I assumed this trick was well-known, but perhaps not. > > > > -tony > > > Sheesh! I should have read one more message! > > - don I never am as clear in some of my posts as I'd like... The kind of screws I'm lamenting are cast, and cast poorly... I assume everyone knows what casting flash is... these screws have casting flash... when you thread them through, the sheet metal eats at the flash, and you get metal bits from that, and at the same time, the part of the flash that doesn't come off quickly reams the sheet metal to death. *Buy* quality screws? There is an advertisement showing here in the U.S. Midwest for an office supply firm. The scene is set in a "typical" office... some shirts are having a meeting, when another shirt comes in and asks if "can we use the pen"? THE pen. The only pen in the office. When I need a screw for a PC, I typically have to find a PC from which to remove a screw. Everything ends up with half the screws it was designed to use. Now, we just bought 25 Dells that don't use very many screws. Where oh where will I get a screw when I need one? -dq From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 2 18:57:47 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: New Finds today and HELP needed on Apple card Message-ID: <000201c1dab4$ca964a20$8a000240@default> Today was busy at doing a auction most of the morning and stopping at several thrift stores all afternoon. Below are some of my finds and a strange card. 1. Mac Performa 630CD (was $5.99) 2. Mac Performa 6110CD (was $7) 3. View-Master InteractiveVision console in the box it was used unit missing the VHS tape that comes with it. (was $18) 4. Laser 50 personal computer (was $2.92) 5. AT&T Globulyst 378TPC tower model 3348-4372 (was $8) 6. Two hp front cartridges (22706C and 22706M). (was 80 cent) 7. Where in Time is Carmen San Diego cartridge by Konami for the Nintendo NES in a box with a desk encyclopedia. (was 79 cent) 8. Six different CD's for the Panasonic 3 DO system. Looked all over store and asked the clerks if they had the game console. No Luck finding it there. (these were .99 to $1.99 each) 9. Several old monitors for $1 each. 10. Now this the card: It says in caps MOTOROLA M68HC05PGMR. One of the chips has a homemade label on it that says METER.MIK CKSUM BF73. There are 2 switches on one is a ON/OFF and the other looks like a reset switch. There is a number in bold white of 3189.Three wires are coming from one side and they are purple, blue, and black in color. It looks like some kind of EPROM burner to me? Anyone have info on this card? (was $1.99) From blacklord at telstra.com Tue Apr 2 20:11:19 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <2b94872bc677.2bc6772b9487@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Smith Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2002 8:59 am Subject: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > ... if you can find the expansions. :) Fair bit of stuff still out (I have some strange ones in my own connection - for eg. a Xetec controller with an extra 2 mb ram & a weird hard disk connector that plugged into the A1000's expansion (Zorro) port - same co. used to make Centronics i/faces for VIC's & 64/128's) > As for a more common system (more common than the Intergraph, not the > Amiga), a UnixPC with 1 meg of ram, and maybe 60MB of disk will give > you access to a really decent subset of available Unix (and possibly > MS-DOS) software. It will also have a decent development environment, > given the installation of a dev kit. THe A2000UX from Commodore was fairly respecatble (though somewhat undersold), not sure what version of Unix it ran, have to dig up my old dealer brochures. > > On the other hand, the Atari ST plays quite a few more games. :) > But the Miggy had more & in better quality :-) (And they're still being written for too.....) cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Apr 2 20:24:05 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: www.cyberguys.com, that's where. Buy a 100 pack for a couple of dollars, put in your "instant super-hero stash". Make yourself look like a genius, and your cow-orkers like the bumbling boobs they are. Also, order a couple of those 1' foot extension cords. For a dollar, it's a great way to keep a wall-wart from eating up more than one socket. More "looking like a genius" stuff. Remember, to the natives, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. For a few dollars, you can be an impressive magician to the ignorant masses. --John > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas H. Quebbeman > > Now, we just bought 25 Dells that don't use very many screws. > > Where oh where will I get a screw when I need one? > > -dq > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 20:26:12 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > When I need a screw for a PC, I typically have to find a PC > from which to remove a screw. Everything ends up with half > the screws it was designed to use. > > Now, we just bought 25 Dells that don't use very many screws. > > Where oh where will I get a screw when I need one? Heh. I worked at a university research lab that was that way. I finally decided that depending on them for incidental supplies like screws, thermal paste, and even floppy disks (for MY use at the lab, not for the lab's use) was more frustration than it was worth. I buy screws by the pound at the Goodwill or the used component shop, floppies by the hundred, and at the time, paste by the 2.5oz pot. Supplying that lab probably cost me $3 a month and kept me from beating the Director about the head and neck. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 20:29:22 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: New Finds today and HELP needed on Apple card In-Reply-To: <000201c1dab4$ca964a20$8a000240@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Apr 2, 2 06:57:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 778 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/956b6213/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 2 20:34:11 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 2, 2 08:50:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/f7baac97/attachment.ksh From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 2 20:35:58 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: >I guess I should have been a bit clearer. The DeCSS >lawsuit was not about posting source code, but about >posting a Windows executable version which was known >as "DeCSS." As stated by 2600 Enterprises in its >post-hearing brief: "Jon Johansen testified that . . >. he wrote the program for Windows rather than for >Linux in order to test it properly because Linux did >not then support the UDF file system used on DVDs." Um... can you explain then, if this is what the lawsuit was about, WHY it was deemed illegal to post or link to, copies of the SOURCE CODE for the DeCSS algorithm. After all THAT is what 2600 was arguing. They didn't disagree that an executable could be used to pirate a DVD. Nor did they flat out disagree that distributing it might not be such a hot idea... what they were fighting for, was the RIGHT to post and say anything you damn well please. If you stop people from posting source code, even if that source code when used serves no purpose other than to commit a crime... you are STILL crushing free speech. There should be no law to stop it... much as their should be no law stopping me from explaining in detail, if I so choose, how to commit murder and get away with it. There is no practical application for executing the knowledge of how to commit and get away with murder, but that doesn't mean that one should be stopped from sharing that knowledge. The moment someone puts the knowledge into use for illegal purposes... THAT is when the law should step up and prosecute someone. But since there are already laws in place that appear to cover the actual illegal activities... then things like the DMCA should just be repealed... they are redundant in places of stopping actual crime, and they cause things that should not be crimes, to now be listed as such. What amazes me is... it has been deemed in a court of law, that it is free speech and ok to publish detailed instructions on how to build an atomic bomb. But it is illegal to post instructions on how to play a DVD that I bought, on a computer that I bought, using an OS that I bought. You can't go around assuming that everyone, when given the chance, will be a criminal. Gee... NJ did that, and now they are 160 million in debt with their EZ-Pass system... why? Because they figured that they would be able to pay for the system from tickets issued to toll jumpers... but funny thing is, they have now found out the hard way, that 99% of the population of NJ is honest... and now the state is stuck with the bill to pay. -chris From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Apr 2 22:44:33 2002 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <20020402.204434.-96547.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:44:50 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > I think this started when we (the U.S.A.) began importing > > parts made in communist countries. > > Well, I spent most of the weekend inside a small East German camera, > > about 40 years old. > > I was seriously impressed by the general engineering (anyone who > makes a > leaf shutter that can do 1/750s gets my respect!), the build quality > and > the repairer-freindlyness of the design. I've found few cameras as > pleasant to repair. > > So not all communnist-country products are badly made... Actually, I should have specifically fingered Red China, which is the only communist country that is a major supplier to the U.S. I never saw real, unadulterated *junk* until I looked at what has been spewing from Red Chinese factories . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 2 21:11:19 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > Have you tried running them into the appropriate size die (either 6-32 > UNC or M3, depening on which type of screw they are). Doing that normally > cleans up such threads. Tony, As hard as it may be to envision, I bet _most_ of the subscribers to this list do not own tap & die sets. Many probably own only one hammer, too. As a tool nut myself, I can't really grasp that concept, but I've come to accept it. Doc, who has a very sharp knife and a flashlight at all times, or did until September 11.... From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 2 21:21:42 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <001d01c1dabe$b0f4f710$c3eeffcc@Shadow> > But surely you have hardware shops that sell screws? Yes, but they require cash or credit... promises don't fly. > > in the U.S. Midwest for an office supply firm. The scene is > > set in a "typical" office... some shirts are having a meeting, > > when another shirt comes in and asks if "can we use the pen"? > > > > THE pen. The only pen in the office. > > Are you sure this is not some 3rd world country???? It often feels that way... Many firms have company credit cards. I think we grossed US$8M last year, and no such plastic exists in this firm, The 25 Dells that were bought? We have one employee who *loves* those points, rebates, and skymiles from large purchases. Then, he submits them for reimbursment. Yours Truly lives paycheck to paycheck and is running a monthly $100 deficit, that only the end-of-year bonus finally clears up. So, it's rare that I can purchase a needed item. I'm supposed to requisition it. Anything I buy that I don't get approved, I risk not being reimbursed. > > When I need a screw for a PC, I typically have to find a PC > > from which to remove a screw. Everything ends up with half > > the screws it was designed to use. > > Now many of my computers don't have any casing screws, but that's not > because I needed them for something else. It's because I want to be able > to work inside the machine. Well, yes, I have lots of those... my EPROM burner is a board in a 486 that lives sans-a-case... -dq From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 2 21:33:33 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Unix on Amiga In-Reply-To: <2b94872bc677.2bc6772b9487@bigpond.com> from blacklord at "Apr 3, 2002 12:11:19 pm" Message-ID: <200204030333.g333XgxA088355@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Christopher Smith > Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2002 8:59 am > Subject: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > > > ... if you can find the expansions. :) > > Fair bit of stuff still out (I have some strange ones in my own > connection - for eg. a Xetec controller with an extra 2 mb ram & a > weird hard disk connector that plugged into the A1000's expansion > (Zorro) port - same co. used to make Centronics i/faces for VIC's & > 64/128's) > > > > As for a more common system (more common than the Intergraph, not the > > Amiga), a UnixPC with 1 meg of ram, and maybe 60MB of disk will give > > you access to a really decent subset of available Unix (and possibly > > MS-DOS) software. It will also have a decent development environment, > > given the installation of a dev kit. > > THe A2000UX from Commodore was fairly respecatble (though somewhat > undersold), not sure what version of Unix it ran, have to dig up my old > dealer brochures. > Real SysVRel4 I assume... a friend of mine worked on it there for the A3000 IIRC. They started with the Real AT&T stuff and bought the source license. Bill From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 21:45:38 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56^H^H66 In-Reply-To: <095401c1da90$c80a0450$9101a8c0@mn> Message-ID: <20020403034538.60493.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill McDermith wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" > > Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I > > can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the > > IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... > > > > Birth year computers.... > > Hmmm. Well, I guess I'll have to look up the info on the > IBM 650... > Larger than a breadbox? (heh... :-) > A desk? (must be, the 1130 I used was large desk sized > but twice as tall...) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 21:46:59 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56^H^H66 In-Reply-To: <095401c1da90$c80a0450$9101a8c0@mn> Message-ID: <20020403034659.15324.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill McDermith wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" > > Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I > > can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the > > IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... > > > > Birth year computers.... > > Hmmm. Well, I guess I'll have to look up the info on the > IBM 650... > Larger than a breadbox? (heh... :-) > A desk? (must be, the 1130 I used was large desk sized > but twice as tall...) Oops... premature ejection... For 1966, I probably have the only birth-year computer I'm going to get - a PDP-8/S. Now all I need is a source of light bulbs to restore the front panel. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 2 17:02:08 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 2, 2 08:50:40 pm Message-ID: <20020403040027.GHWT17738.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 03:34:11 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > The kind of screws I'm lamenting are cast, and cast poorly... > > > > I assume everyone knows what casting flash is... these screws > > have casting flash... when you thread them through, the sheet > > metal eats at the flash, and you get metal bits from that, and > > at the same time, the part of the flash that doesn't come off > > quickly reams the sheet metal to death. Casting isn't good for that small like screws., Maybe screws was clapped together in die halves squeezing out screws. That I not yet seen that kind YET except on bigger diameter threads and usually diecast. If true, that is truly crappiest parts ever heard of. I keep a 2L plastic jarful, many rolling around in many drawer bottoms of bolts, screws, nuts, washers of all kinds mixed with few odd and bits of parts. Almost 10lbs. Got them by culling parts from decent discards I find over the years. Cheers, Doubtful Wizard PS: Oh, Your dept who bought up that 25 dells made serious *mistake*. Only way dept can depend on them running w/ replacement parts is dell's especially their power supplies and few oddball boards. PSUs are totally non-standard pinouts. Oh, your dept also didn't choose AMD and let dell know everybody else wanted quality but flexible choices in different brands of CPUs instead of Intel-only. From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 2 17:02:08 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <095401c1da90$c80a0450$9101a8c0@mn> Message-ID: <20020403040025.GHWJ17738.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box > > > of some sort, or possibly: > ...snip...snip...snip > > > > Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I > > can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the > > IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... > > > > > > > > -dq Well, i add to this pot: My birth-year is 1972, in that era what typical 'puter small enough to fit on desk or on floor (tower) and easy to ship? Cheers Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 2 17:02:08 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Aguh!! Where the 1MB x 1 SOJ or DIP pinout info!? In-Reply-To: <15530.9367.835362.814516@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 (Christopher Smith) Message-ID: <20020403040027.GHWN17738.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Thanks very much! Gooogled without success. Basic FPM dram. Ditto to 4MB x 1bit as well Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 2 17:09:02 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Special debugging techniques (was RE: Shoddy Hardware) In-Reply-To: <20020402211931.37239.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E260BDC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020403040720.CZFW25090.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > I have this unfinished craft project - a "debugging aid" - take a craft Wild ideas with gourd thing snipped... > -ethan > > * chanting optional LOL! Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 2 22:14:55 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai References: <200204021837.g32Ibv92020744@dcms.com> Message-ID: <005b01c1dac6$1c4a5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This is the S-100 world you've entered, not the PC world. The BIOS doesn't go into an EPROM, and you don't buy the BIOS. If you can't find one written for your EXACT hardware environment, which you usually can't, you have to write it yourself. Then you have to incorporate it into a bootable image of CP/M and then find a way to propagate it onto a bootable diskette. That will require some study and some effort. Hopefully you're endowed with enogh free time and interested enough in the related tasks to get that done. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Caprio" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: CP/M and Imsai > > > I'm new to this news group and the S-100 world so my appologies > in advance for what may be stupid or common knowledge questions. > > I purchased an Imsai 8080 and would like to run some version of CP/M. > Should I stick with Imsai's IMDOS, which we know works? If CP/M is doable > What version would be the best choice? > > Does CP/M need some sort of BIOS like the PC? If so where do I get the BIOS > source in order to burn an EPROM? > > Any help, pointers, URL's, etc wouldbe greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 2 22:19:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <009601c1dac6$c91411c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you buy a tap, be sure it's a "roll-tap," which (a) doesn't cut the shavings you'll never get out, and (2) displaces the metal, thereby forming a better thread in what little sheet metal there is. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > > If find a peecee screw that is still chewing or "seizing up" touch > > bit of oil to the thread. Fixed for good. > > Running a tap down the threaded hole and a die (correctly adjusted) over > the screw works wonders as well. Of course it's better to buy good > quality screws in the first place, but it's not always possible to > replace the hole (particularly not if it's in a PC case or a disk drive, > or something. > > -tony > > From vaxman at earthlink.net Tue Apr 2 22:41:30 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: <20020402131714.A315260@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: True, NetBSD would talk to it, but it would require NetBSD running on a uVAX II so the drive could be plugged in. I certainly don't have the patience to run NetBSD on a uVAX II, a wouldn't recommend anyone else do the same. Unfortunately, NetBSD (and FreeBSD) is rapidly becoming unusable on old hardware... clint On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 07:47:52PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > > Easiest way is to attach the drive to a comparable machine running > > a Ultrix that you know the password too. Mount it, edit /etc/passwd, > > umount it, and re-install. > Netboot NetBSD, mount, edit, ... > NetBSD should be able to handle the 4.2BSD FFS of Ultrix. > At least it is worth a try if booting the Ultix/VAX to single > user mode don't work. > -- > > > > tschüß, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Apr 2 22:46:39 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <005b01c1dac6$1c4a5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: > This is the S-100 world you've entered, not the PC world. The BIOS doesn't go > into an EPROM, and you don't buy the BIOS. If you can't find one written for > your EXACT hardware environment, which you usually can't, you have to write it > yourself. Then you have to incorporate it into a bootable image of CP/M and > then find a way to propagate it onto a bootable diskette. > > That will require some study and some effort. Hopefully you're endowed with > enogh free time and interested enough in the related tasks to get that done. You should add that it is a real kick when you finally get everything right and the sucker actually boots and works! All of my boxes that run CP/M run 2.2 built from the source found at the "unofficial CP/M web site": http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ Finding a build environment is left as an exercise for the reader. From vaxman at earthlink.net Tue Apr 2 22:47:47 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: RJ-45 Sockets/Covers/??? In-Reply-To: <3CAA1AA1.987FE924@rain.org> Message-ID: You can pick these up at the local home improvement center, but they cost a lot more than $5 :) On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I'm not sure what to call these things, but they are the covers for > electrical boxes. There are a total of six covers, two with 2 RJ-45 > connectors and four with 1 RJ-45 connector. Each of the RJ-45 connectors > have 8 pins, and these are the covers used when wiring up a > house/office/??? for a network. $5.00 plus shipping for all. > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 22:56:44 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <20020403040025.GHWJ17738.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20020403045644.23962.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box > > > > of some sort, or possibly: > > Well, i add to this pot: > > My birth-year is 1972, in that era what typical 'puter small enough > to fit on desk or on floor (tower) and easy to ship? PDP-8/M? Some early PDP-11 (/05?) Too early for the i4004. I do have this TI 980A with 1972 stamped on a couple of the boards... it's 19" wide, at least 10" tall and about 36" deep (about the same size as a PDP-8/F, maybe a couple of inches taller) kinda typical of machines of the day. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 2 18:03:44 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <009601c1dac6$c91411c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020403050202.GCXA27115.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 21:19:45 -0700 > Organization: Erlacher Associates > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > If you buy a tap, be sure it's a "roll-tap," which (a) doesn't cut the > shavings you'll never get out, and (2) displaces the metal, thereby forming a > better thread in what little sheet metal there is. Same thing if have decent self "roll-tap" screws saved for this purpose. If I need to form threads in chassis sheet, oil the screw and screw away with screwdriver. There's crappy roll-tap screws had been rolled using crappy metal or too brittle rod. This gives rough thread and cracks that makes shavings and can strip easily. Cheers, Wizard > > Dick From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 2 23:09:52 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <095401c1da90$c80a0450$9101a8c0@mn> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Bill McDermith wrote: > Birth year computers.... > > Hmmm. Well, I guess I'll have to look up the info on the > IBM 650... > Larger than a breadbox? (heh... :-) > A desk? (must be, the 1130 I used was large desk sized > but twice as tall...) > A house? (more like it, I'm sure...) > > But wait! www.google.com enter IBM 650 and the first link is great: > > http://www.users.nwark.com/~rcmahq/jclark/ibm650.htm > > Heck, I could fit one in my garage -- it couldn't weigh more than > a few tons... Just need room for the O26 keypunch... And have > a larger electrical service put in... I'm sure someone has one in > their back yard that they would want to get rid of... I think I know where you can get a 650. It won't be anything resembling cheap, though. Peace... Sridhar From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 2 23:13:41 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) Message-ID: <20020403051510.YBTK19878.imf22bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Hans Franke > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! Would you really trash a ZX81 to get a US$2.00 part which is commonly available??? If you decide to go through with such a plan, will you please save the leftover ZX81 parts? Certain parts of these things are becoming very hard to find. I'll pay the freight if you send them to me! If you don't want to send them out of Germany please give them to deserving ZX-TEAM members near you! Glen 0/0 From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 2 23:22:51 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > In the case of self-tapping screws it generally pervents the screw from > > > starting a new thread (which, if done enough times means there's no > metal > > > left). In the case of large-diameter fine pitch threads (like lens > > > retaining rings in cameras, OK, off-topic, but I can't think of such a > > > thread in a computer), it helps prevent cross-threading. > > > > > > I assumed this trick was well-known, but perhaps not. > > > > > > -tony > > > > > Sheesh! I should have read one more message! > > > > - don > > I never am as clear in some of my posts as I'd like... > > The kind of screws I'm lamenting are cast, and cast poorly... > > I assume everyone knows what casting flash is... these screws > have casting flash... when you thread them through, the sheet > metal eats at the flash, and you get metal bits from that, and > at the same time, the part of the flash that doesn't come off > quickly reams the sheet metal to death. It is also possible that they are stamped in ill-mating dies, which could provide the same result. - don > *Buy* quality screws? There is an advertisement showing here > in the U.S. Midwest for an office supply firm. The scene is > set in a "typical" office... some shirts are having a meeting, > when another shirt comes in and asks if "can we use the pen"? > > THE pen. The only pen in the office. > > When I need a screw for a PC, I typically have to find a PC > from which to remove a screw. Everything ends up with half > the screws it was designed to use. > > Now, we just bought 25 Dells that don't use very many screws. > > Where oh where will I get a screw when I need one? > > -dq > > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 2 23:27:14 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706653F@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > >Ok. I wonder what would happen if I stuck a DWBUA in the BI cage > of my > >VAX 7000-650, and added a UNIBUS cabinet, then I were to take a > Qniverter > >and add a Qbus framebuffer? > > I imagine you'd be carted off to the funny farm :-) > > I assume you were not serious but just in case ... > Your path to the Qbus widgets would be: > LSB->XMI->BI->UNIBUS->QBUS > which I suspect is a tad tortuous even for > the normally well designed DEC stuff. Actually, I'm serious. 8-) But my original idea was to put a Qniverter in a PDP-11/70, write some custom software, and use one of the PDP-11 OSes. > Bus adapters generally only work well > one bus down. Beyond that you start > to hit timing issues and other such trivia > such as locking. Hmm. That sucks. > As an aside, surely with a little bit of > thought you could get TURBOchannel > and PCI involved in there? How hard > can it be? One thing that might be interested is to see if I can find a PCI hose for it, find source code for the PCI hose driver for a free OS (I'm pretty sure that there is one out there somewhere), and try to write a VMS driver for the PCI hose on OpenVMS/VAX? Then I could try to get a PCI framebuffer working, but then how would I go about attaching a keyboard and mouse? Peace... Sridhar From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Apr 2 23:46:23 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) In-Reply-To: <20020403051510.YBTK19878.imf22bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: But *this* guy says Z80s are ultra rare! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2013734013 There are a number of good sellers on eBay. Then there are the complete twits like this that think the pretty piece of 40 legged plastic they pulled out of a dead box is "rare" because they've seen the word 'Zilog' before. I would *love* to see eBay install a filter that automatically removed the word "rare" from titles. And if it's so ultra rare, why didn't an enlightened collector snap it up at the bargain price of only $7.99? --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 0:14 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) > > > > From: Hans Franke > > > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? > > Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! > > Would you really trash a ZX81 to get a US$2.00 part which is commonly > available??? > > If you decide to go through with such a plan, will you please save the > leftover ZX81 parts? Certain parts of these things are becoming very hard > to find. I'll pay the freight if you send them to me! If you don't want > to send them out of Germany please give them to deserving ZX-TEAM members > near you! > > Glen > 0/0 > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 23:55:42 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: <200204011208.NAA28374@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20020403055542.32153.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stan Barr wrote: > I was taken ill a few years ago with some symptons that could be > remotely explained by heavy metal poisoning so I was thoroughly tested. > My lead levels were right on the average for someone living in an > urban environment. My personal lead concern isn't so much growing up amidst lead-based paint and leaded gasoline/petrol or even soldering since I was a lad, it's lead from plumbing, both from lead feed pipes in my childhood home (not lead joints, lead supply lines in the walls!) and the drinking water at McMurdo Station - the plumbing in the older buildings dates from well before 1975, including the Galley and many of the dorms. Because they changed the water extraction technique in 1995 from evaporators to reverse osmosis (they stopped melting collected snow a long time ago), the pH changed, and with it, the ability of the water to leach lead out of the joints. They tested the water several times per year and it routinely failed with 2x the safe limits for folks stateside. We were told it wasn't really a problem since we weren't children or expectant mothers, but when calculating our personal lead intakes, I am fairly certain that they did not factor in the fact that to avoid dehydration, we were supposed to drink no less than 4 litres per day (you'd be amazed how fast you can respirate yourself to illness!). So, handling a little solder doesn't phase me. I just try not to lick it too often. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Apr 3 00:03:46 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c1dad5$514a5640$4d4d2c0a@atx> > And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, > well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population > right now... > > -tony > Isn't there suggestive evidence that this has already happened? :-) Andy From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 3 00:43:07 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: RJ-45 Sockets/Covers/??? References: Message-ID: <3CAAA47A.635B40D5@rain.org> I didn't mention it (forgot) but these are new still sealed in their packaging. They have already been spoken for though. I think they were a good deal too :). "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > You can pick these up at the local home improvement center, but > they cost a lot more than $5 :) > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure what to call these things, but they are the covers for > > electrical boxes. There are a total of six covers, two with 2 RJ-45 > > connectors and four with 1 RJ-45 connector. Each of the RJ-45 connectors > > have 8 pins, and these are the covers used when wiring up a > > house/office/??? for a network. $5.00 plus shipping for all. > > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 00:56:57 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <003501c1dadc$bf710540$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > >The reason why something is developed is really not that relevant to how > >it may ultimately be used > > So, according to you... if someone can find an illegal use for an > otherwise legal item, that item should no longer be available to ANYONE, > regardless of if it has legitimate legal uses? > > That being the case... please IMMEDIATELY surrender ALL your computers to > me, since they are potentially capable of pirating software, which > according to your logic, means you can not legally have said computers. > > I will make sure they are properly disposed of for you. > > While you are at it, I need a new car, so give me yours as well... after > all, cars are used every day as transport mechanisms for illegal > activity. I'll make sure it too is "disposed" of in a proper and fitting > manner. > > -chris > > > You've misinterpreted my meaning. I was responding to a poster who suggested that the intent underlying the development of a product was relevant to the appropriateness of its use. That I disagree with this position does not mean, as you have assumed, that I automatically adopt the other extreme -- that because there is an inappropriate use for a product, it cannot be used at all. Your attempt at a false dichotomy is rather transparent. Sorry, I don't have a new car, but I do have a NEC Powermate 386/20 with a crashed hard drive that you can have gratis (if you'll cover the shipping). -W From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 01:03:45 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <007901c1dadd$b25c3720$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > > In any event, the DMCA was intended to address not only those who distribute copies, but those who provide "circumvention devices" > > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass distribution" > > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? > > No it most certainly does not! > > Owning the equipment to comit a crime (especially if that equipment has > legitimate uses) is not (or at least should not) be equivalent to > comitting that crime. > I don't diagree with you, but read again what I said -- "distribution" not "ownership." From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 3 00:54:39 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:55 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: ; from vaxman@earthlink.net on Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 06:41:30 CEST References: <20020402131714.A315260@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020403085439.E319578@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.03 06:41 Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > True, NetBSD would talk to it, but it would require NetBSD > running on a uVAX II so the drive could be plugged in. You have to run it only once to hack the Ultrix installation. Netbooted, so you don't need to remove any drives. > I certainly don't have the patience to run NetBSD on a uVAX II, > a wouldn't recommend anyone else do the same. I installed 4.3BSD-Tahoe UNIX on my MicroVAX III. Currently I am trying to build 4.3BSD-Reno from that base for my MicroVAX 3900. (Exhibition project for the VCFE.) This is real fun. These machines feel quite zippy with that old software. But this old stuff is real crude in some points. NetBSD gives you a slower, but very smooth ride on this hardware. > Unfortunately, NetBSD (and FreeBSD) is rapidly becoming > unusable on old hardware... If you want things like ssh ... you have to pay the price. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 3 01:25:16 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Apple IIe card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > Bar between H+I is an "A102J" resistor pack (1kohm?) > > The header is next to I, right angle (pins parallel to board) > Two rows of pins, total of 26 pins. > > SW is a 4-position SPST dip switch Looks like a parallel printer card. The dip switch would be used for enabling/disabling different modes of operation for different printers. You could probably make up a cable for it from a 26 pin IDC ribbon cable connector, 6ft or so of 26 conductor ribbon cable, and a 36 pin IDC centronics-style connector. Since it uses a 26 conductor cable, I don't think you'd even have to fan out the cable at the 36 pin connector. You would have to make sure to get the pin 1 orientation right for both connectors. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 3 01:36:43 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > Agreed, it's a horrible connector. But there are not that many better > choices. Separate BNCs (which _I_ would like) would be unworkable for > the j-random-public. The coax inserts in the D shell (like the 13W3) > are not much better and are very expensive. I've been seriously > looking for an easy-to-wire, good quality, RGB video connector (say 5 > coax cores + logic lines) and have not found one yet. I think AMP makes some connectors that fit your description, but they are pricey. -Toth From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 3 01:40:54 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: >You've misinterpreted my meaning. I was responding to a poster who >suggested that the intent underlying the development of a >product was relevant to the appropriateness of its use. That I disagree >with this position does not mean, as you have assumed, that >I automatically adopt the other extreme -- that because there is an >inappropriate use for a product, it cannot be used at all. Your >attempt at a false dichotomy is rather transparent. I would HOPE it was transparent... it was meant as a tongue in cheek response. I didn't honestly think you believed in the extreme logical end to the concept. Sorry, I thought it would be understood as a goof when I asked for your car. :-) -chris From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 3 01:41:56 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > Whatever SRBP board dumps when heated to 180 deg C (toner transfer) > > And whatever tantalum bead capacitors give off when then explode! Whatever the stuff is, it is really, really nasty! The worst part is cleaning the crud off the board and surrounding components... > > Rosin (solder flux - Maplin probably don't use it in their lousy > > "Adepto" solder) > > Which is why I prefer real 'Multicore' brand solder... I've been using solder made by Alpha Metals, and have had very good luck with it. The flux gives off nearly no smell, and does not turn brown when heated. I imagine it is some type of no-clean flux, but I still use flux remover to clean it from any boards I work on. -Toth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 01:45:01 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Birthyear computers In-Reply-To: <3CA9F071.60F74645@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > How about writing on a CAVE wall. *** Ducks *** The teenagers can get theirs for next to nothing, and can even transport and run cheap. The older machines are scarcer, more costly, a major project to transport, and costly to run. Even if they would sell me Stonehenge, I couldn't afford the shipping, and don't have enough storage space. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From clillie1 at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 3 01:46:43 2002 From: clillie1 at socal.rr.com (Chris Lillie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: ibm thinkpad parts Message-ID: <01cd01c1dae4$3e18dce0$1c4aa518@socal.rr.com> call for your ibm think pad system boards 949-646-2181 all ibm think pad parts in stock From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 02:20:52 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <008f01c1dae8$7828eb60$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > >You've misinterpreted my meaning. I was responding to a poster who > >suggested that the intent underlying the development of a > >product was relevant to the appropriateness of its use. That I disagree > >with this position does not mean, as you have assumed, that > >I automatically adopt the other extreme -- that because there is an > >inappropriate use for a product, it cannot be used at all. Your > >attempt at a false dichotomy is rather transparent. > > I would HOPE it was transparent... it was meant as a tongue in cheek > response. I didn't honestly think you believed in the extreme logical end > to the concept. > > Sorry, I thought it would be understood as a goof when I asked for your > car. :-) > > -chris > > > You never know on this list, as there tends to be an abundance of reductio ad absurdum posts that are not at all tongue in cheek! You wouldn't want my car anyway, it's a lease. -W From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 02:23:11 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Birthyear computers References: Message-ID: <009701c1dae8$cb613da0$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> > Even if they would sell me Stonehenge, I couldn't afford the shipping, and > don't have enough storage space. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > I'd need to find a Heathkit EC-1 -- at least it's not that big. From whdawson at localisps.net Wed Apr 3 03:06:40 2002 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001701c1dab1$f9d077a0$c3eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: -> I assume everyone knows what casting flash is... these screws -> have casting flash... Look closely. It is not casting flash. Screws aren't cast. As mentioned in an earlier post, the heads and threads are made by pressing (deformation) of a rod. When the form dies wear, are improperly secured, or are misaligned, the result is "extruded squish", not "casting flash". Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 03:12:31 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: OT: hp doc request Message-ID: <15530.51071.14884.922871@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hey folks...I know there are a lot of HP calc people here; a friend of mine is looking for an HP48G manual, the "HP 48G Series Advanced User's Reference Manual"...no luck with either HP or eBay; does anyone have a copy of this that they might wanna turn loose of, or maybe do some scanning from? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Apr 3 04:24:03 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066540@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >One thing that might be interested is to see if I can find a PCI hose for >it, find source code for the PCI hose driver for a free OS (I'm pretty >sure that there is one out there somewhere), and try to write a VMS driver >for the PCI hose on OpenVMS/VAX? Can you get a PCI hose for it? I forget. If you can then you could also get one of those 3rd party PCI<->Q-bus boards and create a loop :-) >Then I could try to get a PCI >framebuffer working, but then how would I go about attaching a keyboard >and mouse? PCI->USB? Antonio From rschaefe at gcfn.org Wed Apr 3 06:11:19 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Fw: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's Message-ID: <01e001c1db08$aa580100$a7469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "maximum entropy" To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: Re: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's > >Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:28:45 -0500 > >From: Brian Hechinger > > > >On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 08:46:25PM -0800, joseph p bennardo wrote: > > > >> I can't say why they want them destroyed, but if you knew the company > >> you'd understnad a bit better. > > > >i probably still wouldn't understand. there is no good reason that i know of. > > I did get an almost reasonable justification for this sort of demented > behavior once. Some computer parts are considered hazardous waste. > If I take a machine from some company, then dump it for whatever > reason, there's a possibility (however remote) of it being traced back > to that company (via serial numbers or whatever). They could then > potentially be held liable for the illegal dumping. Of course, it > would be simple enough to provide a bill of sale for $0.01, or some > other documentation of the transfer of ownership. But I did lose out > on one deal where that was seen as just too much hassle for the > beaurocrats involved. When I aquired my VAX 6310 I signed a paper absolving them of all responsibility for the beast. (Didn't sign one for the TU81+...) At first I didn't want to sign, but after a few seconds of thinking about it I couldn't come up with a plasuable reason not to, so I did. Got a copy for my records though, it should be stuffed inside her somewhere. Bob > -- > entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law. From thomas at tstrathmann.de Wed Apr 3 06:13:57 2002 From: thomas at tstrathmann.de (Thomas Strathmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: WTT: HP9000/700 system Message-ID: <20020403121357.GA8079@adams> Hi, I have a HP 9000/700, 50 MHz, 128 MB RAM, 1.x GB SCSI disk. Original HP keyboard and mouse included plus an HP 99784A 19'' monitor. Everything is in good working condition and so far I have had no problems with this system. HP-UX 10.20 is installed, I'll include media if needed (you know, the license is bound to the hardware). I wand to trade for something, dunno, make an offer. You would have to fetch it from northern Germany or send a freight forwarder. Thomas -- Thomas S. Strathmann http://pdp7.org If God had intended Man to Smoke, He would have set him on Fire. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:19:54 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: FA Tektronix 21/31 calculator brochure Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403081954.007fc730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> See From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:16:24 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Televideo 950 terminal with manual FA Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403081624.007fabc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> See From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:14:16 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: morrow CPM books FA Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403081416.007f8410@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> See From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:18:25 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: FA GE analog computer kit manual 1961!!! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403081825.007fb730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> See From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:26:07 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: FA another Tek 31 brochure also 909 and 911 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403082607.007f9260@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Check his other auctions too. There's also articles about the Tek 909 and 911 calcualtors. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:42:04 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: OT: hp doc request In-Reply-To: <15530.51071.14884.922871@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403084204.00818100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dave, The 48 is new enough that you can still get manuals from HP. Joe At 04:12 AM 4/3/02 -0500, you wrote: > > Hey folks...I know there are a lot of HP calc people here; a friend >of mine is looking for an HP48G manual, the "HP 48G Series Advanced >User's Reference Manual"...no luck with either HP or eBay; does anyone >have a copy of this that they might wanna turn loose of, or maybe do >some scanning from? > > Thanks, > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire "...it's leaving me this unpleasant, >St. Petersburg, FL damp feeling on my shorts..." -Sridhar > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 07:52:14 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403085214.0081a3d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> More US Government running amok! Joe >Subject: Adios, Internet Radio > > >========================================================= >-------- ENEWS AND VIEWS -------- >========================================================= >Delivering breaking news, as well as analysis and >commentary, from eWEEK.com > >April 3, 2002 // Volume 2, Issue 41 > >========================================================= >In This Edition >========================================================= >--OUR TAKE >Adios, Internet Radio > >========================================================= >Our Take >========================================================= >ADIOS, INTERNET RADIO > >-- By Chris Gonsalves -- > >I'm a fan of Stardog, personally. Maybe you like CelticGrove >or BlueCityJazz. Doesn't matter. In a few weeks, listening >to music on Internet radio will be dead as a mackerel. > >Shame really. The Internet radio business has been growing >at something like 100 percent annually and is thriving in >genres underrepresented on FM stations, such as classical, >blues, jazz and gospel. Doesn't matter. The government, >acting once again in the special interest of the music >industry, is about to crush the idea. > >In the latest example of groundless regulation and greed >interfering with free commerce, the U.S. Copyright Office is >considering a proposal that would force Internet radio >stations to pay exorbitant royalties to record companies and >performers, something their over-the-air counterparts are >not required to do. > >Where AM and FM radio stations pay a small fee to music >composers, Internet radio stations are facing fees of up to >14 cents per listener per song. That fee would bankrupt >nearly all of the Web broadcasters operating today, >according to the group saveinternetradio.org. > >Copyright officials have until May 21 to make the call, but >considering that the recommended shakedown came from the >advisory group they created--the Copyright Arbitration >Royalty Panel (CARP for short)--it's clear the rubber stamp >is warmed up and waiting. > >How did we get to this point? Even if you thought Napster >and others of their ilk were the bad guys, how did Internet >radio become to the target of the Harry Fox crowd? It began >in October 1998, when Congress passed the "Digital >Millennium Copyright Act" (DMCA), which gave record >companies the green light to collect royalties when music >was played via "digital media" such as Internet radio. > >It's an interesting departure from a music industry >standpoint. Record companies and performers don't get >royalties from AM and FM radio play because the copyright >folks consider the promotional value of the airplay payment >enough. So why the switch for the Internet? The theory >bought by Congress is that Internet listeners can make >"perfect copies" of the songs being streamed, and those >copies could hurt CD sales. That would be a good argument, >except that, as anyone who listens to Internet Radio knows, >you can't make "perfect copies." You can't easily make >copies at all. And if you can, they are of too low a sound >quality to be useful in creating your own CDs. What you get >sounds pretty much like those cassette tapes you used to >make off the FM radio. Not great. > >Never ones to let facts stand in their way, the solons >assigned to the CARP published their recommended royalty >schedule in late February. As the basis for the outrageous >fee schedule, the CARP report cites a $5 billion deal >between Yahoo! and Broadcast.com. The result was a figure >that would leave most Internet broadcasters, who have >attracted precious little advertising, liable for between >200 and 300 percent of their gross revenues. And, oh, by the >way, the fees are retroactive to October 1998. According to >Internet radio industry figures, a midsize independent >Webcaster with an average audience of 1,000 would owe >$525,600. > >See you later Stardog. It was nice knowing you. > >To e-mail eWEEK Deputy News Editor Chris Gonsalves, >click here: >mailto:chris_gonsalves@ziffdavis.com > >========================================================= >News >========================================================= >1. ADDITIONAL IE/APACHE PROBLEMS SURFACE > >eWEEK Labs' Timothy Dyck last month advised readers to use a >combination of HTTPS and basic authentication to get secure >log-in functionality that works with all browsers and Web >servers. It turns out that this approach won't work all the >time, either. To read the story, click here: >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gLO0A2 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >2. PAIR OF OFFICE XP BUGS UNCOVERED > >A well-known security researcher has released an advisory >about--and exploit code for--two new unpatched flaws in >portions of Microsoft Corp.'s Office XP application suite. >The two bugs are closely related and, if used in concert, >could enable an attacker to gain complete control over a >vulnerable machine. To read the story, click here: >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJj0AS > >------------------------------------------------------------ >3. INTEL TO CUT CHIP PRICING BY 57 PERCENT > >Intel is set to cut prices on its top-performing Pentium 4 >chips by as much as 25 percent this month and up to 57 >percent this spring. To read the story, click here: >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJm0AV > >========================================================= >Now at eWEEK.com >========================================================= >1. PETER COFFEE: THE LONG ROAD TO SIMPLE SYSTEMS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gLP0A3 > >2. NETWORK APPLIANCE TARGETS REMOTE ACCESS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gLQ0A4 > >3. A SECURITY EXTENSION FOR MICROSOFT OPERATIONS MANAGER >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gLR0A5 > >4. SUN BUILDS OUT JAVA TOOL SETS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJn0AW > >5. HP BOARD BALKS AT HEWLETT RENOMINATION >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0fva0A1 > >6. NAI TOOL SCANS FOR NETWORK CRACKS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJk0AT > >========================================================= >Elsewhere on Ziff Davis >========================================================= >1. JOHN C. DVORAK: NANODRIVE USES INSECT PARTS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJr0Aa > >2. ULTRAPORTABLES: HOW LOW CAN THEY GO? >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJq0AZ > >3. ARE SERVER APPLIANCES RIGHT FOR YOUR BUSINESS? >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJs0Ab > >4. LINUX X WINDOWS FLAW LETS INTRUDERS IN >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gJt0Ac > >5. BILL MACHRONE: XML SECURITY RISKS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gLS0A6 > >6. A CHEAT SHEET FOR CRM SUCCESS >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo?y=ePOu0BzN6x0DUm0gLT0A7 > >Copyright (c) 2002 Ziff Davis Media Inc. All Rights >Reserved. > From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 07:43:49 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book Message-ID: <000701c1db15$95d73630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Good Morning... I used to have a copy of: PASCAL User Manual and Report Authors: Jensen & Wirth Pub: Springer-Verlag It had a silver cover with red & black printing. I loaned it out, it never came back. If anyone has a copy they'd part with, or finds one, please contact me. Thanks, -doug quebbeman -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 3 07:45:03 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Birthyear computers In-Reply-To: References: <3CA9F071.60F74645@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAB237F.7822.27BD8776@localhost> > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > How about writing on a CAVE wall. *** Ducks *** > Even if they would sell me Stonehenge, I couldn't afford the shipping, and > don't have enough storage space. They got prety small versions available by now ... I assume even some according to your birth year :) Gruss H. (I realy love long distance communication - less nose bleeding :) -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 08:00:25 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <001801c1db17$e8fe5f80$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ethan Dicks > >DECmate? I think the DM-III(+) was sold until 1994. I'd have to look up >what model was contemporary to 1986; I'd guess the DECmate-II. DMII was maybe 83ish. >The question is, though, is this thread about computers you could >walk down the street and _buy_ in 1986, or ones that were _introduced_ >in 1986? The second is a much smaller list, naturally. That would generally exclude much with 386 or higher. '86 was the Z100 series, last of the CP/M-80 machines like Kaypros and Compupro S100 crates. Microvax-I was there and VAXMATE was just around the corner (integrated 286 boxen). It was also a point on the broad 286 peak. The Workstation wars were warming up around then as well, this would lead to Sun, Apollo, DECstations{mips} and later VAXstations. Biggest impression of '86, WYSIWYG printing and Graphical screens making a big surge. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 08:05:46 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: "New" PDP-8 Message-ID: <001f01c1db18$a8054420$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ethan Dicks >The EPROMs themselves are not worth recycling (from the standpoint that >they are more valuable with DM firmware than as ordinary blanks). The >contents might be worth archving (not that they aren't already). I was.... SNIP>>> I wasn't suggesting they had significant value but did point out they were at least removeable and therefor usable. >The UARTs are 6402s, right? Not an uncommon chip outside of the Wintel >world. Still available in quantity, AFAIK. Correct but, if your building it's nice to not have to buy if you have! >Would the 6121 have any application outside of a DECmate? It's part of >the wierd console emulation on the DM, isn't it? It's the IO port device (decode and register control). It's not quite standard PDP-8 but it is generally useful. >> The DMIII it will be the 6120 and maybe a 6121 plus 2882 and the eproms, >> though I'm less sure as it's been a long time since I've had to open one. > >What's the 2882 do? UART. The DMIII had D7201 {intel 8274} dual USARTs, not common but useful as it's nearly identical to the Z80 SIO but, intended for 8080/8085/8088/8086 style busses. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 08:10:03 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: PCB vs perfboard construction economics (was Re: "New" PDP-8) Message-ID: <006801c1db19$85f3d760$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ethan Dicks >> I like the PDP-8 but am unhappy that a 12/24 cpu never hit the >> monolithic chip market. > >That would have been fun. > >> Well I don't but remember with out the proper I/O a pdp-8 is NO FUN. Yes, and the big highlight of the PDP-8 (omnibus) was the relative ease of doing one off IO. It was truly easy to WW a quad card to do most anything. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 08:18:14 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 Message-ID: <00ef01c1db1a$65c92c00$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ethan Dicks >> My birth-year is 1972, in that era what typical 'puter small enough >> to fit on desk or on floor (tower) and easy to ship? > >PDP-8/M? Some early PDP-11 (/05?) Too early for the i4004. I do have 4004 was there, and the 8008 was just about there (sept 82 intro). PDP-8e of various forms, Cincinattai Millichron CM2000/2100/2200 to name an oddball. Allison From hansp at aconit.org Wed Apr 3 08:21:59 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book References: <000701c1db15$95d73630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAB1007.6060701@aconit.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > PASCAL User Manual and Report > Authors: Jensen & Wirth > Pub: Springer-Verlag bookfinder.com throws up multiple copies.... -- hbp From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 08:23:55 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020403085214.0081a3d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I really, really, really wanted this to be a joke. It's really,really not. Doc From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Apr 3 14:26:37 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:07:15 EST >From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com >Subject: Re: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available >In a message dated 4/2/02 5:05:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, >r_beaudry@hotmail.com writes: > >><< A bit too new to be on topic, but... I was scrounging through some >> >>stuff >>yesterday, and unearthed a set of original diskettes for an IBM PS/1. >> >> > >do you know what model PS/1? Well.... I only have the disks, and not a PS/1. They were part of another lot of stuff that I got... Is there a way to tell from a file on the disk, or some number on the outside of the disk? Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 08:47:13 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02Apr3.100803est.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > I really, really, really wanted this to be a joke. It's really,really >not. This kind of thing explains why I no longer buy CD's or movies, when in the past I spent quite a bit of money on tapes and albums. Netflix.com is my source for movies, and at $20/month it offers much better value than going to the theatre. Piracy isn't hurting the recording industry, it's their greed coupled to the fact that they no longer offer good value. I will not support an industry that tries to put these strangleholds on what I can do. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Apr 3 08:49:33 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <007901c1dadd$b25c3720$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> References: <007901c1dadd$b25c3720$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20020403144933.GB880545@uiuc.edu> Wayne M. Smith said: > > No it most certainly does not! > > > > Owning the equipment to comit a crime (especially if that equipment has > > legitimate uses) is not (or at least should not) be equivalent to > > comitting that crime. > > > I don't diagree with you, but read again what I said -- "distribution" not "ownership." Then we should ban knife stores, gun shops, etc...hell, anything that sells or distributes anything of any kind. you know, any object can be used to commit a crime. It is a logical fallacy to draw an arbitrary line between distributing a computer program or source code that could be used to commit a crime and distributing a material object that can be used to commit a crime. There is no philosophical distinction between the two, even if there is a literal distinction. Once it becomes OK to ban the distribution of DeCSS or like computer programs, how much farther do you need to go to ban distribution of firearms? from there to knives? Since the legal precedent is in place that it's ok to ban the distribution of ANYTHING (or, equally important, any IDEA) because it MIGHT be used to commit a crime, we are on a very slippery slope and something needs to be done about it NOW before we fall off the bottom. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 08:52:30 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <000401c1db1f$2f44ed40$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Bill Sudbrink >You should add that it is a real kick when you finally get >everything right and the sucker actually boots and works! That's still the best reason to do it. It's a total immersion project and once done there are few parts of the system that will not be understood at the software (maybe hardware too) level. >All of my boxes that run CP/M run 2.2 built from the source >found at the "unofficial CP/M web site": Some of those I copied to Tim! I was useing them back when to build mine, from the emergence of V2.2 on. >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ Da place! >Finding a build environment is left as an exercise for the reader. I recommend MyZ80 as a starting point. Then work the hardware dependent stuff iteritively on the target via serial download. Allison From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Apr 3 08:50:43 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20020403145043.GC880545@uiuc.edu> Tony Duell said: > > And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, > well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population right now... Has everyone read _1984_? I just finished it and it's quite good ;) anyway, very instructive, and frightening, on this point... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 3 09:06:57 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677E9@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> (cc'd to ClassicCmp list, I'm sure there's interest there...) > From: Brian Hechinger > > On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:26:23PM -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > All, > > > > May I make another suggestion? A bunch of us here in the Silicon Valley > are > > fans of old DEC equipment. We get 'em and restore 'em. Some favor PDPs > (one > > guy even has two DEC 10's), some favor the smaller 11's and others of us > like > > old VAXes. At any rate, we meet once a month for lunch and swap > stories, > > tell what stuff we've picked up, etc. All of us are willing to trade > > equipment or donate books and equipment to each other. We studiously > avoid > > EBAY. > > so who's on the east coast that would like to do this? i'm in philly, and > i > know isildur is in pittsburg. don't know where we would want to meet > though, > since some people would have to travel far for that. thoughts? ideas? > -- > I'd be up for it. A flea-market swap-meet kinda thing, right? Maybe we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From linc at thelinuxlink.net Wed Apr 3 09:02:40 2002 From: linc at thelinuxlink.net (Linc Fessenden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677E9@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > (cc'd to ClassicCmp list, I'm sure there's interest there...) > > > From: Brian Hechinger > > > > On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:26:23PM -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > All, > > > > > > May I make another suggestion? A bunch of us here in the Silicon Valley > > are > > > fans of old DEC equipment. We get 'em and restore 'em. Some favor PDPs > > (one > > > guy even has two DEC 10's), some favor the smaller 11's and others of us > > like > > > old VAXes. At any rate, we meet once a month for lunch and swap > > stories, > > > tell what stuff we've picked up, etc. All of us are willing to trade > > > equipment or donate books and equipment to each other. We studiously > > avoid > > > EBAY. > > > > so who's on the east coast that would like to do this? i'm in philly, and > > i > > know isildur is in pittsburg. don't know where we would want to meet > > though, > > since some people would have to travel far for that. thoughts? ideas? > > -- > > > I'd be up for it. A flea-market swap-meet kinda thing, right? Maybe > we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? I am in as well.. Problem is I live in between Isildur and Brian so PA is looking better and better :-) -Linc Fessenden In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 09:03:33 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book Message-ID: <000f01c1db20$b9814de0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > > PASCAL User Manual and Report > > Authors: Jensen & Wirth > > Pub: Springer-Verlag > > bookfinder.com throws up multiple copies.... Cool... do you think I can trade some S-100 boards for one? What? Bookfinder.com won't do ClassicCmp trades? :( -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From mrfusion at argonath.vaxpower.org Wed Apr 3 09:02:47 2002 From: mrfusion at argonath.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: PA would definitely be a plus to me. If its an hour or two drive, i would have a high chance of getting there, but if its more than that i probably wouldnt. Isildur On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Linc Fessenden wrote: > I am in as well.. Problem is I live in between Isildur and Brian so PA is > looking better and better :-) > > -Linc Fessenden From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 09:05:23 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56" Message-ID: <001701c1db20$faf919b0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > PDP-8e of various forms, Cincinattai Millichron CM2000/2100/2200 to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Cincinnati Milacron ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 3 09:07:04 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) References: <20020403051510.YBTK19878.imf22bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <002101c1db21$373e0660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> 6116's are adequate, actually superior, substitutes for 2016's, and they're available, very readily, ANYWHERE, even in 3rd world countries. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:13 PM Subject: Re: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) > > From: Hans Franke > > > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? > > Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! > > Would you really trash a ZX81 to get a US$2.00 part which is commonly > available??? > > If you decide to go through with such a plan, will you please save the > leftover ZX81 parts? Certain parts of these things are becoming very hard > to find. I'll pay the freight if you send them to me! If you don't want > to send them out of Germany please give them to deserving ZX-TEAM members > near you! > > Glen > 0/0 > > From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 3 09:10:41 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20020403145043.GC880545@uiuc.edu> from "Dan Wright" at Apr 3, 02 08:50:43 am Message-ID: <200204031510.KAA15462@wordstock.com> And thusly Dan Wright spake: > > Tony Duell said: > > > > And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, > > well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population right now... > > Has everyone read _1984_? I just finished it and it's quite good ;) anyway, > very instructive, and frightening, on this point... > Ooooh.... And what about Farenheit 451?! This was required reading at my high school. Ray Bradbury was just honored with some award a few days ago. Cheers, Bryan From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 3 09:08:56 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <002701c1db21$7a30b260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If your screws aren't 6x32's already, the easiest and probably most practical thing to do is get a 6x32 roll-tap, and "fix" the application so you can get the "right" screws whenever you need. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > In the case of self-tapping screws it generally pervents the screw from > > > > starting a new thread (which, if done enough times means there's no > > metal > > > > left). In the case of large-diameter fine pitch threads (like lens > > > > retaining rings in cameras, OK, off-topic, but I can't think of such a > > > > thread in a computer), it helps prevent cross-threading. > > > > > > > > I assumed this trick was well-known, but perhaps not. > > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > > Sheesh! I should have read one more message! > > > > > > - don > > > > I never am as clear in some of my posts as I'd like... > > > > The kind of screws I'm lamenting are cast, and cast poorly... > > > > I assume everyone knows what casting flash is... these screws > > have casting flash... when you thread them through, the sheet > > metal eats at the flash, and you get metal bits from that, and > > at the same time, the part of the flash that doesn't come off > > quickly reams the sheet metal to death. > > It is also possible that they are stamped in ill-mating dies, > which could provide the same result. > - don > > > *Buy* quality screws? There is an advertisement showing here > > in the U.S. Midwest for an office supply firm. The scene is > > set in a "typical" office... some shirts are having a meeting, > > when another shirt comes in and asks if "can we use the pen"? > > > > THE pen. The only pen in the office. > > > > When I need a screw for a PC, I typically have to find a PC > > from which to remove a screw. Everything ends up with half > > the screws it was designed to use. > > > > Now, we just bought 25 Dells that don't use very many screws. > > > > Where oh where will I get a screw when I need one? > > > > -dq > > > > > > > > From wonko at arkham.ws Wed Apr 3 09:04:23 2002 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) In-Reply-To: ; from mrfusion@uranium.vaxpower.org on Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:02:47AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020403100423.T9601@wintermute.arkham.ws> On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:02:47AM -0500, Lord Isildur wrote: > > PA would definitely be a plus to me. If its an hour or two drive, i would > have a high chance of getting there, but if its more than that i probably > wouldnt. what halfway not-shitty town east of you is withing reason? pick something, let's see if it's an ok place to meet. close to pittsburg means we might convince Rob S. to stop out as well, but damn pittsburg is a haul from here. -brian -- "Oh, shut up Buddha." -Jesus Christ (South Park) From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 3 09:27:34 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677EA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Brian Hechinger > > On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:02:47AM -0500, Lord Isildur wrote: > > > > PA would definitely be a plus to me. If its an hour or two drive, i > would > > have a high chance of getting there, but if its more than that i > probably > > wouldnt. > > what halfway not-shitty town east of you is withing reason? pick > something, > let's see if it's an ok place to meet. > > close to pittsburg means we might convince Rob S. to stop out as well, but > damn pittsburg is a haul from here. > > -brian > -- Personally, I'd probably make a weekend of it, or something, if I can... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From mrfusion at argonath.vaxpower.org Wed Apr 3 09:22:19 2002 From: mrfusion at argonath.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) In-Reply-To: <20020403100423.T9601@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: thats one of the problems.. there reaslly isnt any place in pennsylvania that makes much sense other than close to you in philly or close to me in pittsburgh.. though there are more folks on the list east of us than west i'd think. as for pittsburgh, it is too far west i think. i'd naturally invite interested vaxaholics to the (fourth annual, this year :) vax party sometime in october, but thats not the same thing anyway. philly is more than 2 hours, but might still be the best place. isildur On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Brian Hechinger wrote: > On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 10:02:47AM -0500, Lord Isildur wrote: > > > > PA would definitely be a plus to me. If its an hour or two drive, i would > > have a high chance of getting there, but if its more than that i probably > > wouldnt. > > what halfway not-shitty town east of you is withing reason? pick something, > let's see if it's an ok place to meet. > > close to pittsburg means we might convince Rob S. to stop out as well, but > damn pittsburg is a haul from here. > > -brian > -- > "Oh, shut up Buddha." -Jesus Christ (South Park) > From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 3 09:20:53 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784354@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > But the Miggy had more & in better quality :-) (And they're > still being > written for too.....) For a 1000 -- are you sure? :) I have a much easier time finding software for my 520ST. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 3 09:27:40 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784356@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > As hard as it may be to envision, I bet _most_ of the subscribers to > this list do not own tap & die sets. Many probably own only Speaking as someone who doesn't own a tap and die, I can say that there's not a day I'm working on something (anything) that I don't think "maybe I should go out and finally get a tap and die set." ;) > Doc, who has a very sharp knife and a flashlight at all times, > or did until September 11.... Doc, you can reply in email if you'd like since it's not really on topic, but why on earth have you stopped carrying them? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 3 09:39:53 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677EB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Dan Wright > > > Tony Duell said: > > > > And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, > > well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population right > now... > > Has everyone read _1984_? I just finished it and it's quite good ;) > anyway, > very instructive, and frightening, on this point... > > - Dan Wright > Read that ages ago. Excellent book.... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From hansp at aconit.org Wed Apr 3 09:42:10 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book References: <000f01c1db20$b9814de0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAB22D2.8010503@aconit.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >>>PASCAL User Manual and Report >>>Authors: Jensen & Wirth >>>Pub: Springer-Verlag >>bookfinder.com throws up multiple copies.... > Cool... do you think I can trade some S-100 boards for one? Ah, you did not specify that you wanted to trade. > What? Bookfinder.com won't do ClassicCmp trades? You could always offer. About time we regressed back to a barter economy. -- hbp From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Apr 3 09:38:21 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Language Converter (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded for any possible help; REPLY TO MR. DOWNMAN, not to me. I'm just the nosey forwarder.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:15:52 +1000 From: Jim Downman & Assoc. Reply-To: dxsoft@yahoogroups.com To: dxsoft@yahoogroups.com Subject: Language Converter How does one convert old Smith Corona Word Processor Diskettes for use on the hard drive of my Windows XP System. They contain years of hard work and valuable imformation ??? The diskettes are low density 740KB size. Can somebody help.?? Jim VK4FAD --------end fwd----------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 09:47:06 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784354@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784354@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <02Apr3.110751est.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > -----Original Message----- >> From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > >> But the Miggy had more & in better quality :-) (And they're >> still being >> written for too.....) > >For a 1000 -- are you sure? :) I have a much easier time finding >software for my 520ST. The ST doesn't have an archive the size of Aminet, though I will admit most of the software is geared towards later models. Thankfully, if it's meant to run on the A500 it will likely run on the A1000. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 3 09:47:10 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784358@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne M. Smith [mailto:wmsmith@earthlink.net] > > > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. > Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass > distribution" > > > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? > > Owning the equipment to comit a crime (especially if that > equipment has > > legitimate uses) is not (or at least should not) be equivalent to > > comitting that crime. > I don't diagree with you, but read again what I said -- > "distribution" not "ownership." To punish someone for distributing equipment which could be used to commit a crime is just as ludicrous. It does not matter whether the alleged crime involves a computer or not. You don't punish people for selling rat poison, kitchen utensils, notebook paper, or photocopiers, do you? What about panty-hose and ski-masks -- I hear those are used in crime a lot! :) When will we have the digital millennium hosiery act? It would be absolutely idiotic to punish someone for distributing software which _might_ be used to illegally copy things to some other media. You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 3 10:00:10 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677ED@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Bryan Pope > > And thusly Dan Wright spake: > > > > Tony Duell said: > > > > > > And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, > > > well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population right > now... > > > > Has everyone read _1984_? I just finished it and it's quite good ;) > anyway, > > very instructive, and frightening, on this point... > > > > Ooooh.... And what about Farenheit 451?! This was required reading at my > high school. Ray Bradbury was just honored with some award a few days > ago. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > Another very excellent book, that I read (what feels like) ages ago... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 09:55:30 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:56 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784356@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Doc, who has a very sharp knife and a flashlight at all times, > > or did until September 11.... > > Doc, you can reply in email if you'd like since it's not really on topic, > but why on earth have you stopped carrying them? I haven't stopped carrying them at all. But I fly a lot, so the "all times" part is no longer accurate. They tell me that a MicroMag flashlight looks too much like a pistol barrel on the 'scope. They get very upset about it. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 3 09:56:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784356@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1db28$1967eaa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You don't have to buy a tap and die set unless you're really into tools for their own sake. I've had a tap and die set, and, until a year or so ago, a completely equipped machine shop, with equipment ranging from punch presses to various lathes and milling machines. While I'm not an expert machinist, I have managed, over the years, to learn how to make relatively small and quite interchangeable parts, and very precisely fitting ones at that, without hurting mysielf, and without creating too much scrap. I've even managed to learn to limit the number of taps I break when I'm required to tap a 2"-deep hole. I personally have used a die for threading rod only once in the ~30 years over which I've owned one. Normally, when I needed a tap, I simply bought one, for about half a dollar. Now, I'm not quite ready to give up the tap wrenches I own, but of the dies I've had, only one has ever been used, and that one only once. For what I've seen on this thread, a roll-tap and a tap wrench, the latter being best bought at a used tool sale or pawn shop, would be quite adequate. The lubricant of choice for sheet metal, tapped by the usual home user, would be hand lotion. Special lubricants aren't necessary. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 8:27 AM Subject: RE: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > As hard as it may be to envision, I bet _most_ of the subscribers to > > this list do not own tap & die sets. Many probably own only > > Speaking as someone who doesn't own a tap and die, I can say that there's > not a day I'm working on something (anything) that I don't think "maybe I > should go out and finally get a tap and die set." ;) > > > Doc, who has a very sharp knife and a flashlight at all times, > > or did until September 11.... > > Doc, you can reply in email if you'd like since it's not really on topic, > but why on earth have you stopped carrying them? > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From fauradon at beckman.com Wed Apr 3 10:01:16 2002 From: fauradon at beckman.com (fauradon@beckman.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: WTF? Message-ID: I usually don't post from work but this need to be noted and discussed!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1341836302 For those of you who can not check the link out: it's a collection of gaming consoles with a bid of $11,600.00 Yes that's eleven thousand six hundred bucks. Granted it has some nice pieces I can't add it up to that amount. Francois From rhudson at cnonline.net Wed Apr 3 10:13:34 2002 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <3CA9E424.6030700@cnonline.net> <3CA9F071.60F74645@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAB2A2E.8040509@cnonline.net> Hmmm PDP-1 eh? I could emulate it .. ;^> Ben Franchuk wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >>>> (What I am trying to do together here is get a setup of only stuff made in >>>> 1986.... It'd be neat to have a system exactly the same age as me :)) >>> >> Gosh, I was born in 1958, >> >> Anybody got a spare ENIAC ? >> >> Perhaps an abacus? >> >> :^) > > > How about writing on a CAVE wall. *** Ducks *** > > Now do you one with or with out TUBES? > Looking a list here http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/timeline.html > 1956 was a great year for TUBE computers. > 1960 was a great year Transistor computers. ( Hmm I could get a PDP-1 ) From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 10:18:56 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book Message-ID: <002701c1db2b$4171ac90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > >>>PASCAL User Manual and Report > >>>Authors: Jensen & Wirth > >>>Pub: Springer-Verlag > > >>bookfinder.com throws up multiple copies.... > > > Cool... do you think I can trade some S-100 boards for one? > > Ah, you did not specify that you wanted to trade. Well, I've got a PTC 2KRO with one or two 1702s in it; a label indicates some kind of code, probably a boot ROM for CP/M, but until I dust off the SOL and fire it up, I've no way to tell (My Needham EPROM burner doesn't go back that far). > > What? Bookfinder.com won't do ClassicCmp trades? > > You could always offer. About time we regressed back to a > barter economy. Agreed, but the taxman's got his eye on that, too... -dq -- -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 10:19:23 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Language Converter (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: See comments below: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, John Lawson wrote: > Forwarded for any possible help; REPLY TO MR. DOWNMAN, not to me. I'm > just the nosey forwarder.... > > How does one convert old Smith Corona Word Processor Diskettes for use on > the hard drive of my Windows XP System. They contain years of hard work > and valuable imformation ??? The diskettes are low density 740KB size. > Can somebody help.?? Jim VK4FAD I'm terribly tempted to send Mr. Downman email explaining Oerstedts, coercivity, and track widths.... Doc From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 3 10:24:25 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> <20020403145043.GC880545@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <003b01c1db2c$06157cc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, >> well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population right now... >Has everyone read _1984_? I just finished it and it's quite good ;) anyway, >very instructive, and frightening, on this point... Big ideas... here's my $0.02, anyway: Apparently the idea of thoughtcrime is central to the upcoming SKG/Speilberg SF film "Minority Report", which I just heard about. - - - While the movie may be independent this, there are areas of study in social philosophy which actively seek to protect free _informed_ choice. Whenever you hear "It's what the people want", beware, because somebody is smelling a weakness and wants to make a Billion off of it. Not calling it a weakness is the evil in it. Oh yeah, there are times where the masses are served for their better good, but it may be something like less that 50% of the time. (greedy self interest note: anybody know how I can keep a copy of the MR trailer on my PC for repeated viewing?) John A. From rhudson at cnonline.net Wed Apr 3 10:32:35 2002 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio References: <02Apr3.100803est.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3CAB2EA3.1060403@cnonline.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: >> I really, really, really wanted this to be a joke. It's really,really >> not. > > > This kind of thing explains why I no longer buy CD's or movies, when > in the past I spent quite a bit of money on tapes and albums. > Netflix.com is my source for movies, and at $20/month it offers much > better value than going to the theatre. Piracy isn't hurting the > recording industry, it's their greed coupled to the fact that they no > longer offer good value. I will not support an industry that tries to > put these strangleholds on what I can do. > > Jeff Unfortunately all too many of the sheeple still do buy cd and movies, and attend movies at the theater/drive in for the prices asked. All I want is my fair use! I would even pay the prices asked if i can rip the music for use in my own laptop or mp3 player From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 3 10:37:03 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available Message-ID: <27.25403371.29dc89af@aol.com> In a message dated 4/3/2002 8:33:45 AM Central Standard Time, r_beaudry@hotmail.com writes: > >><< A bit too new to be on topic, but... I was scrounging through some > >> >>stuff > >>yesterday, and unearthed a set of original diskettes for an IBM PS/1. > >> >> > > > >do you know what model PS/1? > > Well.... I only have the disks, and not a PS/1. They were part of another > lot of stuff that I got... > > Is there a way to tell from a file on the disk, or some number on the > outside of the disk? > > Unfortunately, I've been away from IBM for several years now. The early models used 9 or so, and the later more standard models used ~14 or more. If not claimed, I will take them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/8ba097e9/attachment.html From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 3 10:34:33 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) References: Message-ID: <008f01c1db2d$70226c80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Maybe we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? I'm all for something like this. NYC/Boston is my route, so New Haven is right on it. I've driven as far as Rochester (350?mi) for such purposes. Washington, DC would be in my range. Maynard, MA would be a neat choice for historic reasons. John A. From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Apr 3 10:42:44 2002 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F91@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I'd be interested on an occasional basis... I live in Virginia, but I grew up (and most of my family lives in) New Haven, so it would be simply another visit home for me. -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Linc Fessenden [mailto:linc@thelinuxlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:03 AM > To: David Woyciesjes > Cc: port-vax@netbsd.org; classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) > Subject: Re: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) > > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > (cc'd to ClassicCmp list, I'm sure there's interest there...) > > > > > From: Brian Hechinger > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:26:23PM -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > > All, > > > > > > > > May I make another suggestion? A bunch of us here in > the Silicon Valley > > > are > > > > fans of old DEC equipment. We get 'em and restore 'em. > Some favor PDPs > > > (one > > > > guy even has two DEC 10's), some favor the smaller 11's > and others of us > > > like > > > > old VAXes. At any rate, we meet once a month for lunch and swap > > > stories, > > > > tell what stuff we've picked up, etc. All of us are > willing to trade > > > > equipment or donate books and equipment to each other. > We studiously > > > avoid > > > > EBAY. > > > > > > so who's on the east coast that would like to do this? > i'm in philly, and > > > i > > > know isildur is in pittsburg. don't know where we would > want to meet > > > though, > > > since some people would have to travel far for that. > thoughts? ideas? > > > -- > > > > > I'd be up for it. A flea-market swap-meet kinda thing, > right? Maybe > > we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? > > I am in as well.. Problem is I live in between Isildur and > Brian so PA is > looking better and better :-) > > -Linc Fessenden > > In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 10:43:14 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: CARP Tariff and The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784358@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wayne M. Smith [mailto:wmsmith@earthlink.net] > > > > > that enable others to engage in mass distribution. > > Doesn't it make as much sense to go after those involved in "mass > > distribution" > > > > of the circumvention device, such as DeCSS? > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) They probably will, very soon. :( Joe Rigdon's forwarded piece concerning CARP's hijacking of the internet radio broadcasters is a case VERY relevant to this discussion. (CARP is the Copyright Arbitration Royalty Panel) As has been pointed out, all the activities the DMCA was advertised as targetting were already illegal. Legislating enforcement of existing legislation is currently very popular in the US, but it has _never_ been effective. Duh.... What the DMCA has really accomplished is to put much of the authority to administer copyright law into the hands of beurocratic agencies. Agencies who are not accountable to, or easily accessible by, the general voting public. Not coincidentally, they are also much easier to bribe^H^H^H^H influence by lobbying. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 10:41:58 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Birthyear computers References: Message-ID: <3CAB30D6.EF49A0EE@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Even if they would sell me Stonehenge, I couldn't afford the shipping, and > don't have enough storage space. Some people have made a copy of stonehenge in the North East USA, out of cement. But they forget to read the Firmware Manual that states the rocks have to be re-adusted if moved. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bob at jftr.com Wed Apr 3 10:45:15 2002 From: bob at jftr.com (bob@jftr.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Language Converter (fwd) References: Message-ID: <009101c1db2e$eede9e30$5508000a@crosstier.local> Hi .. Try this link. http://www.computing.net/windows95/wwwboard/forum/101205.html Does this sound right? -- Bob Flanders ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: Language Converter (fwd) > > > Forwarded for any possible help; REPLY TO MR. DOWNMAN, not to me. I'm > just the nosey forwarder.... > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:15:52 +1000 > From: Jim Downman & Assoc. > Reply-To: dxsoft@yahoogroups.com > To: dxsoft@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Language Converter > > How does one convert old Smith Corona Word Processor Diskettes for use on > the hard drive of my Windows XP System. They contain years of hard work > and valuable imformation ??? The diskettes are low density 740KB size. > Can somebody help.?? Jim VK4FAD > > --------end fwd----------- > > > From wilson at dbit.com Wed Apr 3 10:45:28 2002 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) Message-ID: <200204031645.g33GjS230079@dbit.dbit.com> From: "John Allain" >> Maybe we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? > >I'm all for something like this. NYC/Boston is my route, so New >Haven is right on it. I've driven as far as Rochester (350?mi) for >such purposes. Washington, DC would be in my range. >Maynard, MA would be a neat choice for historic reasons. Sounds good to me too, I'm near Springfield MA so I can hit anywhere in NE easily, or eastern NY. John Wilson D Bit From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 10:48:24 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 References: <000701c1da3f$e48f5cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <3CA9E424.6030700@cnonline.net> <3CA9F071.60F74645@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CAB2A2E.8040509@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <3CAB3258.97E0CC70@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > Hmmm PDP-1 eh? > > I could emulate it .. ;^> Yep ... http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 10:50:28 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: WTF? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 fauradon@beckman.com wrote: > I usually don't post from work but this need to be noted and discussed!!! > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1341836302 > For those of you who can not check the link out: it's a collection of gaming > consoles with a bid of $11,600.00 > Yes that's eleven thousand six hundred bucks. Granted it has some nice pieces I > can't add it up to that amount. Heh. That's not even the asking bid, that's _current_! Sometimes ya want what ya want, I guess. Doc From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 10:56:37 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <004301c1db30$851518b0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Hmmm PDP-1 eh? > > I could emulate it .. ;^> If you do, try separating the graphics display emulator from the computer emulator... then we could use it for yet still other emulated systems! -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 11:09:45 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56" Message-ID: <001801c1db32$9c5be380$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Douglas H. Quebbeman >> PDP-8e of various forms, Cincinattai Millichron CM2000/2100/2200 to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Cincinnati Milacron Ok, since your so good as to fix the spelling, maybe you know where one is? I woked with them briefly in '73, never seen them since. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 11:16:27 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) Message-ID: <004b01c1db33$4aeac740$3a7b7b7b@ajp> A good choice is the MIT flea, held every 3rd sunday starting April through September. It's in Cambridge MA (nearly Boston.) Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: port-vax@netbsd.org ; classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:00 PM Subject: Re: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) >> Maybe we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? > >I'm all for something like this. NYC/Boston is my route, so New >Haven is right on it. I've driven as far as Rochester (350?mi) for >such purposes. Washington, DC would be in my range. >Maynard, MA would be a neat choice for historic reasons. > >John A. > > From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Apr 3 11:14:17 2002 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F92@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I'd also be quite happy with Washington DC (It's just an hour or so away from me :-) additionally, it has a number of interesting sites to visit (Smithsonian?) for those who haven't been here before. -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John Allain [mailto:allain@panix.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 11:35 AM > To: port-vax@netbsd.org; classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) > > > > Maybe we can get something going up here in New Haven, CT? > > I'm all for something like this. NYC/Boston is my route, so New > Haven is right on it. I've driven as far as Rochester (350?mi) for > such purposes. Washington, DC would be in my range. > Maynard, MA would be a neat choice for historic reasons. > > John A. > > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 3 11:22:14 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Language Converter (fwd) References: Message-ID: <005001c1db34$19633940$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I think he should start with Vogon Poetry ! Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------- "Never let anybody read Vogon poetry to you!" ~from~ the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy ------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Doc To: Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 6:19 PM Subject: Re: Language Converter (fwd) > See comments below: > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, John Lawson wrote: > > > Forwarded for any possible help; REPLY TO MR. DOWNMAN, not to me. I'm > > just the nosey forwarder.... > > > > > How does one convert old Smith Corona Word Processor Diskettes for use on > > the hard drive of my Windows XP System. They contain years of hard work > > and valuable imformation ??? The diskettes are low density 740KB size. > > Can somebody help.?? Jim VK4FAD > > I'm terribly tempted to send Mr. Downman email explaining Oerstedts, > coercivity, and track widths.... > > Doc > From webmaster at bidstogo.biz Wed Apr 3 11:36:03 2002 From: webmaster at bidstogo.biz (BidsToGo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: "BidsToGo" is places to go, things to do Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/55e63f6c/attachment.html From bill at timeguy.com Wed Apr 3 11:41:39 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <20020403113354.I56922-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing about the realities of using core memory. I only know that it looks like pretty cool stuff to play with. Would I be completely off my tree to try to build a core memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a pre-strung core frame with all the cores and wires intact? When I say "interface", I mean basically something that will let me talk to the core from a PC or from my recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. If I have a 64x64 frame, would I just need something on the order of 256 driver transistors (one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either direction) plus some kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the sense wire (is there just one of these per frame?) and determine whether or not a bit has flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all sorts of ghosts and goblins lurking in core memory that I don't want to confront? From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 3 12:02:25 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available In-Reply-To: <27.25403371.29dc89af@aol.com> Message-ID: Don't remeber the model number, but the 286-based micro-thin PS/1 my parents bought back in '90 had 13 disks for it's 'install/backup set'. The system was about 2in thick, 12in wide, included a Mouse, PS/1 software crap, IBM DOS 4.0, MSWorks for Dos, 1M of RAM, a 1.4M floppy drive and 40M IDE hard drive. the included 12" monitor also included they system's power supply (how the thing was made so dang small). Also included a weird internal 2400baud modem with a non-standard interface. The system got tossed (not sure I can say I'm sad about it either) when my parents move to a condo a couple years ago. -- Pat On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/3/2002 8:33:45 AM Central Standard Time, > r_beaudry@hotmail.com writes: > > > > >><< A bit too new to be on topic, but... I was scrounging through some > > >> >>stuff > > >>yesterday, and unearthed a set of original diskettes for an IBM PS/1. > > >> >> > > > > > >do you know what model PS/1? > > > > Well.... I only have the disks, and not a PS/1. They were part of another > > lot of stuff that I got... > > > > Is there a way to tell from a file on the disk, or some number on the > > outside of the disk? > > > > > > Unfortunately, I've been away from IBM for several years now. The early > models used 9 or so, and the later more standard models used ~14 or more. If > not claimed, I will take them. > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 3 12:07:23 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Apr 2002 01:41:56 MDT." Message-ID: <200204031807.TAA22328@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tothwolf said: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > Which is why I prefer real 'Multicore' brand solder... > > I've been using solder made by Alpha Metals, and have had very good luck > with it. The flux gives off nearly no smell, and does not turn brown when > heated. I imagine it is some type of no-clean flux, but I still use flux > remover to clean it from any boards I work on. I use something similar by "On-LINE" (made in Taiwan!) sold in the UK by RadioSpares. Highly reccomended. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 3 12:00:14 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:02:08 -0000." <20020403040025.GHWJ17738.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <200204031800.TAA22280@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, jpero@sympatico.ca said: > > > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box > > > > of some sort, or possibly: > > ...snip...snip...snip > > > > > > Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I > > > can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the > > > IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... > > > > > > > > > > > > -dq > > Well, i add to this pot: > > My birth-year is 1972, in that era what typical 'puter small enough > to fit on desk or on floor (tower) and easy to ship? All of a sudden I feel _very_ old ;-( There were no working electronic computers when I was born...even Collosus was still a few months from completion.... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 3 04:27:44 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: By now OT: Re: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20020403144933.GB880545@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote: > Then we should ban knife stores, gun shops, etc...hell, anything that > sells or distributes anything of any kind. you know, any object can be > used to commit a crime. It is a logical fallacy to draw an arbitrary > line between distributing a computer program or source code that could > be used to commit a crime and distributing a material object that can be > used to commit a crime. There is no philosophical distinction between > the two, even if there is a literal distinction. Once it becomes OK to > ban the distribution of DeCSS or like computer programs, how much > farther do you need to go to ban distribution of firearms? from there to > knives? Since the legal precedent is in place that it's ok to ban the > distribution of ANYTHING (or, equally important, any IDEA) because it > MIGHT be used to commit a crime, we are on a very slippery slope and > something needs to be done about it NOW before we fall off the bottom. I'm just waiting for the end, when all the bad decisions and worthless policy being promulgated by our gubment leads to the complete collapse of our civilization. Then, complete anarchy will reign and we'll be able to do whatever the hell we please. And the only thing the record execs will be able to do is standby and watch. Ha ha. In the meantime, I'll continue to use Morpheus (or whatever replaces it) and buy used CDs. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 12:28:10 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56" Message-ID: <006201c1db3d$4ec20270$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > > >> PDP-8e of various forms, Cincinattai Millichron CM2000/2100/2200 to > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >Cincinnati Milacron > > Ok, since your so good as to fix the spelling, maybe you > know where oneis? > > I woked with them briefly in '73, never seen them since. Last one I saw was in the Humanities Department at IU, hooked to a CDC 607 tape drive and running one of the first lazer light shows, called Soleil, in 1977. They *may* still have it... or someone associated with the school probably does. Don Byrd was the guy working with it, he's up at some school in Boston now, I think... The PDP-8 clone I'm looking for is the Harris/COPE 1200... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 12:31:00 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <001701c1db3d$b591be00$3a7b7b7b@ajp> Not that many trasistors more like 128 diodes. You would need to know: 1-The switching current for the core: 2-the half select current(related to #1): 3-Time to switch 4-is it a 2d or 3d array(word or bit frame) 5-single sense/inhibit or serperate sense and inhibit lines. Words are driven by the same drivers as an individual bit so that saves parts. Generally there is an array of multiplexed devices to drive the array, for a 64x64 that would likely mean only 128 driver devices (best done as integrated stuff like TI 754xx parts) and a lot of steering diodes. You will need a sense amp per bit and an inhibit driver per bit. Most core systems use a delay line to get the timing as the cycle is RMW (read/modify or rewrite) as core is destructive read out (generally) so you have to write the data back. The time you sense the bit change is tied to the core used and varies some with temperature and current. Also the sense amp must discriminate from noise and a valid pulse related to a bit change. Oh, it will be slow. Most core system were over .5us{500nS} Tacc and Tcy are typically 1.0-1.6us{1000-1600nS} . It's a rewarding task but non-trivial nor small. FYI: you need a heafty low noise multiple voltage power supply to run it. Me, I'm looking at a 16k semiconductor memory replacement for a PDP-8f that is simple. This would be a resource to those that have found an -8 without enough core or to replace bad core. This is of course a IMCFT project. Allison {IMCFT >>> In My Copious Free Time} -----Original Message----- From: Bill Richman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:58 PM Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? >Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing about the realities of >using core memory. I only know that it looks like pretty cool stuff to >play with. Would I be completely off my tree to try to build a core >memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a pre-strung core frame with >all the cores and wires intact? When I say "interface", I mean basically >something that will let me talk to the core from a PC or from my >recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. If I have a 64x64 >frame, would I just need something on the order of 256 driver transistors >(one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either direction) plus some >kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the sense wire (is there >just one of these per frame?) and determine whether or not a bit has >flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all sorts of ghosts and goblins >lurking in core memory that I don't want to confront? > > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 3 04:31:35 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784358@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) DOWN WITH FRED! EVIL PURVEYOR OF ILLEGAL TOOLS OF CRIME!!! FIE! FIE! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Apr 3 12:57:05 2002 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: line monitor? Interview 3600 Message-ID: I found what looks like to be a line monitor. It has two RS-232C DB25 connectors on the back, labeled connector 1 and connector 2, there is also a barrel type connector labeled video out. The front panel which is hinged at the bottom and is the keyboard, folds down and reveals a small monitor. The keys appear membrane contact type. There are buttons labeled send and receive. There is a QWERTY keyboard and number pad and additional buttons. The label is Atlantic Richfield and immediately below it is Interview 3600. It appears to be the size and form factor of a Compaq luggable. There are no card slots or other openings on the back besides the power connector, 2 DB25 connections and external video. Has anybody seen one of these? I suppose if could be some kind of disk or interface exerciser. Google turns up nothing. Thanks Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/0996667a/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 13:01:21 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > DOWN WITH FRED! EVIL PURVEYOR OF ILLEGAL TOOLS OF CRIME!!! FIE! FIE! You'd better start worrying about, if and when they come and take me away, whether I might tell them who I supplied stuff to. Twenty years ago, when I wrote the first versions of XenoCopy, I thought that it would make sense to make contact with some of the OEMs at trade shows to make sure that I got accurate information about their formats. At NCC (which was once the biggest show in the US, soon thereafter passed by by Comdex), booth staff at several manufacturers were incapable of imagining ANY possible use of disk format conversion other than the making of unauthorized copies of their proprietary software. In fact, representatives of TWO companies threatened to sue me if I included their disk formats! Although I was out of town, and staying in a hotel room, I stayed up late that night to make sure that theirs were the very next formats that I added. But neither company kept their promise of providing me with massive free publicity. The two companies were: Intertec (Superbrain) Televideo -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 13:02:56 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? References: <20020403113354.I56922-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <3CAB51E0.9B3700E8@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill Richman wrote: > > Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing about the realities of > using core memory. I only know that it looks like pretty cool stuff to > play with. Would I be completely off my tree to try to build a core > memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a pre-strung core frame with > all the cores and wires intact? When I say "interface", I mean basically > something that will let me talk to the core from a PC or from my > recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. If I have a 64x64 > frame, would I just need something on the order of 256 driver transistors > (one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either direction) plus some > kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the sense wire (is there > just one of these per frame?) and determine whether or not a bit has > flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all sorts of ghosts and goblins > lurking in core memory that I don't want to confront? At one time they made CORE memory driver IC's for driving the lines. If you can find any of the old guys they would be handy. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 13:04:38 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204031800.TAA22280@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <3CAB5246.2E6CCFA5@jetnet.ab.ca> Stan Barr wrote: > > Hi, > > jpero@sympatico.ca said: > > > > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box > > > > > of some sort, or possibly: > > > ...snip...snip...snip > > > > > > > > Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I > > > > can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the > > > > IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -dq > > > > Well, i add to this pot: > > > > My birth-year is 1972, in that era what typical 'puter small enough > > to fit on desk or on floor (tower) and easy to ship? > > All of a sudden I feel _very_ old ;-( There were no working electronic > computers when I was born...even Collosus was still a few months from > completion.... Well you could go after the mechanical ones :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jrice at texoma.net Wed Apr 3 13:14:29 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204031800.TAA22280@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <3CAB5495.4010209@texoma.net> Just out of curiosity, what was available in 1954? I probably coulfdn't afford the power and a/c for all of the vacuum tubes. James Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > jpero@sympatico.ca said: > >>>>>I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S-100 box >>>>>of some sort, or possibly: >>>>> >>>...snip...snip...snip >>> >>>>Well, for a birthyear computer, anyone know where I >>>>can find a slightly-used IBM 709? I used to have the >>>>IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-dq >>>> >>Well, i add to this pot: >> >>My birth-year is 1972, in that era what typical 'puter small enough >>to fit on desk or on floor (tower) and easy to ship? >> > > All of a sudden I feel _very_ old ;-( There were no working electronic > computers when I was born...even Collosus was still a few months from > completion.... > > From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 3 13:14:14 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: >(greedy self interest note: anybody know how I can keep a > copy of the MR trailer on my PC for repeated viewing?) Rumor has it (haven't gotten around to trying, as most trailers suck anyway), if it is streamed with QuickTime, and you have the QuickTime 4.0 or earlier player, you can bypass their anti-save ability. Also, I know a number of the non savable streams become saveable in QuickTime 5.0 IF it is registered as a Pro version. Humm... better send Apple's QT team to jail, sounds like they are releasing software that can bypass copy protection. :-) -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 13:23:45 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Language Converter (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > How does one convert old Smith Corona Word Processor Diskettes for use on > > the hard drive of my Windows XP System. They contain years of hard work > > and valuable imformation ??? The diskettes are low density 740KB size. > > Can somebody help.?? Jim VK4FAD > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > I'm terribly tempted to send Mr. Downman email explaining Oerstedts, > coercivity, and track widths.... Naaaah. But you could address his subject line, and discuss the concept of a "LANGUAGE converter". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 13:29:15 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CAB580B.7090806@internet1.net> Doc, Mag makes some quite small flashlights now. I believe they have one that is keychain sized. That would be an aweful small gun barrel, plus if it's on your key chain, it goes in the basket when you go through the metal detector :-) I really should pick one of those up myself. Hmm, I DO need to go to Lowes today, any way :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Doc wrote: > I haven't stopped carrying them at all. But I fly a lot, so the "all > times" part is no longer accurate. They tell me that a MicroMag > flashlight looks too much like a pistol barrel on the 'scope. They get > very upset about it. > > Doc > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 3 13:29:33 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178435F@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > At NCC (which was once the biggest show in the US, soon > thereafter passed > by by Comdex), booth staff at several manufacturers were incapable of > imagining ANY possible use of disk format conversion other > than the making > of unauthorized copies of their proprietary software. In fact, Yes, folks, people really are That Stupid. I wouldn't have suggested this if I didn't think it was a possibility, but I find it incredibly funny that it's actually been tried already. :) > representatives of TWO companies threatened to sue me if I > included their > disk formats! > Although I was out of town, and staying in a hotel room, I > stayed up late > that night to make sure that theirs were the very next formats that I > added. You did exactly what I would have done in that situation, perhaps with a prominent note in the manual as to why. > But neither company kept their promise of providing me with > massive free > publicity. My only worry is that these days, they might actually go through with it. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 13:43:31 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) > They probably will, very soon. :( Did John Draper write "Easy Writer" WHILE he was in jail? From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 3 13:51:20 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784363@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@mac.com] > Humm... better send Apple's QT team to jail, sounds like they are > releasing software that can bypass copy protection. :-) Not only that, but the OS team too, since their OS allows one to just copy files all over the place willy nilly! ;) Get those nasty people at IEEE, while you're at it, since some of their standards are designed to facilitate "data interchange." Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 3 14:08:35 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <20020403113354.I56922-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020403150835.00849570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bill, You're a man after my own heart! I've been thinking about this for some time. I once had some NICE small core planes (16k I think) out of a HP communications analyzer and I think they would have been just about perfect for this. I had too many other projects at the time so I sold them but I know where there are some more analyzers so I may grab them and swipe the core from them. I found the service manual for the analyzer so I had the pin out for the entire machine including the core. (I still have it). IIRC the core module was about 5 inches square and had all the drivers and sense amps on it so that might make things easier. However there are some things that you have to do with core and I don't know if they handled in hardware or if the OS had to take care of it. For example, reading core is destructive, that is it erases the contents so you have to store the contents back into it before you do anything else (unless you don't care if it's lost). That seems like it would be easy enough to do in HW but I don't know if that's what they did. Joe At 11:41 AM 4/3/02 -0600, you wrote: >Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing about the realities of >using core memory. I only know that it looks like pretty cool stuff to >play with. Would I be completely off my tree to try to build a core >memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a pre-strung core frame with >all the cores and wires intact? When I say "interface", I mean basically >something that will let me talk to the core from a PC or from my >recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. If I have a 64x64 >frame, would I just need something on the order of 256 driver transistors >(one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either direction) plus some >kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the sense wire (is there >just one of these per frame?) and determine whether or not a bit has >flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all sorts of ghosts and goblins >lurking in core memory that I don't want to confront? > > > > From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 3 14:27:46 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020403150835.00849570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020403202746.67197.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> Having the drivers is important. I've looked in vain for the 75xxx series chips described in the famous 1976-ish Byte Magazine article on core memory that has been mentioned before. Without those, its a heck of a lot of discretes, and there's no way around it. Too bad, because I have some really nice core memory with the diodes only that deserves to do more than hang on a wall. I also suspect that because of all of the unknowns involved regarding the magnetic properties of the core that you use, the way to go about it is to put a lot of pots on a single driver/receiver setup, tweek em to the middle, and repeat. My understanding of core is that there are thermistors involved also, and that core had a very narrow range of temperature operation. There were even programs designed specifically to cause "hot spots" in the core in order to test it (you'd have to know the physical layout of the core to pull this trick off). --- Joe wrote: > Bill, > > You're a man after my own heart! I've been > thinking about this for some time. I once had some > NICE small core planes (16k I think) out of a HP > communications analyzer and I think they would have > been just about perfect for this. I had too many > other projects at the time so I sold them but I know > where there are some more analyzers so I may grab > them and swipe the core from them. I found the > service manual for the analyzer so I had the pin out > for the entire machine including the core. (I still > have it). IIRC the core module was about 5 inches > square and had all the drivers and sense amps on it > so that might make things easier. However there are > some things that you have to do with core and I > don't know if they handled in hardware or if the OS > had to take care of it. For example, reading core is > destructive, that is it erases the contents so you > have to store the contents back into it before you > do anything else (unless you don't care if it's > lost). That seems like it wou! > ld be easy enough to do in HW but I don't know if > that's what they did. > > Joe > > At 11:41 AM 4/3/02 -0600, you wrote: > >Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing > about the realities of > >using core memory. I only know that it looks like > pretty cool stuff to > >play with. Would I be completely off my tree to > try to build a core > >memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a > pre-strung core frame with > >all the cores and wires intact? When I say > "interface", I mean basically > >something that will let me talk to the core from a > PC or from my > >recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. > If I have a 64x64 > >frame, would I just need something on the order of > 256 driver transistors > >(one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either > direction) plus some > >kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the > sense wire (is there > >just one of these per frame?) and determine whether > or not a bit has > >flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all > sorts of ghosts and goblins > >lurking in core memory that I don't want to > confront? > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 3 14:32:18 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available Message-ID: <156.badf018.29dcc0d2@aol.com> In a message dated 4/3/2002 12:14:38 PM Central Standard Time, pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com writes: > Don't remeber the model number, but the 286-based micro-thin PS/1 my > parents bought back in '90 had 13 disks for it's 'install/backup set'. > The system was about 2in thick, 12in wide, included a Mouse, PS/1 software > crap, IBM DOS 4.0, MSWorks for Dos, 1M of RAM, a 1.4M floppy drive and 40M > IDE hard drive. the included 12" monitor also included they system's > power supply (how the thing was made so dang small). Also included a > weird internal 2400baud modem with a non-standard interface. > > The system got tossed (not sure I can say I'm sad about it either) when my > parents move to a condo a couple years ago. > > yes, that's the 2011 model with DOS in ROM. pretty neat little machine. You could even get one with 512k, no HDD and mono screen. Found the addon second story 5.25 addition for $5 in the box a few weeks ago. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/91770c4b/attachment.html From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 14:32:39 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program" Message-ID: <001801c1db4e$b37fe540$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) > > They probably will, very soon. :( > > Did John Draper write "Easy Writer" WHILE he was in jail? Hmmm... He stayed with my family during a 3-day stop in September 1978... I gave him a 23-channel CB radio to ease the trip out, and he gave me a copy of a Nektar album (it wasn't "Remember the Future"). White and olive drab VW Microbus. >From what I've pieced together, EasyWriter must have gotten started when he got back to the Left Coast. He *might* have started formulating the ideas while in Harrisburg (Harrisville?) State Prison. We corresponded for a while before he went in; I was an early user on WRBBS (Ward and Randy's BBS), and if it wasn't that BBS, it might have been The Well or one of the other Kalifornia BBSs... I contacted Adam Osborne, and asked if he could use his clout to help John out. His reply was that while he didn't necessarily accept the Government's version of what happened, that John was indeed in deep doodoo and anyone that tried to help would get sh*t on their shoes. Now John's doing fine, tho work comes to him slowly, and poor Adam Osborne is slowly dying in a village in India, from Parkinson's Disease. BTW, I'm told that one of Adam's expressed wishes is that he be left to go in peace... Let's all thank him for his efforts and achievements, and wish him a Happy Journey into the hereafter. And please don't take that the wrong way. He was right- my brief association with John led to my departure from my position at the University where I'd hoped to get on full-time... but I bear absolutely no grudge for that. The system just plain sucks. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 3 14:37:05 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066540@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > >One thing that might be interested is to see if I can find a PCI hose for > >it, find source code for the PCI hose driver for a free OS (I'm pretty > >sure that there is one out there somewhere), and try to write a VMS driver > >for the PCI hose on OpenVMS/VAX? > > Can you get a PCI hose for it? I forget. > If you can then you could also get one of > those 3rd party PCI<->Q-bus boards and > create a loop :-) Now *that's* twisted. I like it. 8-) > >Then I could try to get a PCI > >framebuffer working, but then how would I go about attaching a keyboard > >and mouse? > > PCI->USB? But does OpenVMS/vax support USB? Peace... Sridhar From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 3 14:45:42 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Language Converter (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > See comments below: > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, John Lawson wrote: > > > Forwarded for any possible help; REPLY TO MR. DOWNMAN, not to me. I'm > > just the nosey forwarder.... > > > > > How does one convert old Smith Corona Word Processor Diskettes for use on > > the hard drive of my Windows XP System. They contain years of hard work > > and valuable imformation ??? The diskettes are low density 740KB size. > > Can somebody help.?? Jim VK4FAD > > I'm terribly tempted to send Mr. Downman email explaining Oerstedts, > coercivity, and track widths.... > > Doc You might also want to include the information that some/all? of the SC Word Processors had a rather kinky disk system that recorded in a spiral like a phono record and cannot be read by any `normal' floppy disk system. - don From bill at timeguy.com Wed Apr 3 14:47:24 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:57 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020403150835.00849570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020403143831.T56922-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Response from a seller I asked about the core planes he's selling (and I'm bidding on) on eBay. Can I beat him like a baby seal? Please...? Just for a little while...? "I disposed of the driver boards," indeed. I'd be "afraid" too. The driver boards probably weren't "pretty" enough to fetch a good price from the "collectors" on eBay. If you're gonna salvage _some_ of it, get the _whole_thing_! "I'm sorry, Mr. Smith - I'm afraid I 'disposed of' the bank routing number on the check I sent you for the core planes." (Don't get me wrong here - I'm not saying he's the least bit dishonest, but I hate it when someone is cavalier about having gotten rid of something I wanted!) <*cry> > They are perfect. No damaged cores or wires. I'm afraid I disposed of > the driver boards. From caprio at dcms.com Wed Apr 3 14:23:42 2002 From: caprio at dcms.com (Don Caprio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <200204032023.g33KNg4E029556@dcms.com> Thanks to all for you comments on the S-100 and Imsai. The reason I got intersted in this was back in the late 70's I worked for an OEM and we rolled out data Entry/Retrieval system on Datapoint, Then moved to the Imsai, and then the Intel SBC 8086 running RMX/86. This was my first programming job. Everything was written in assembler and progressed to PL/I then finally forth. I loved this job. Back then programmers appreciated tight code and knew how to save a few bytes of code. It was amazing what we did with the Imsai. I think we had 30+ serial connections to data entry terminals with keypunch operators banging away at 100 WPM! The terminals were also used for data base retrieval over a dedicated line connected to our mainframe, a Xerox Sigma 9. Our mainframe application was written in assembler as welll (MetaSymbol). I also ported a few 8080/z80 applications to 8086. When I left the company ten years later we had piles of Imsai's on pallets and didn't know what to do with them. I bet they ended up in a landfill somewhere! Wish I had just a pallet of them today! It's been twenty years since I worked on the Imsai. Most of my knowledge on these and other S-100 systems is burried in my brian somewhere problem is I can't seem to fetch it :^) At any rate I'm up for the challange and am looking forward to putting my Imsai system together. Any ex employee's of Science Dynamics (Torrance, Ca) out there? Jeff, Neil, Ralph, Dave, and Less are you there? and then From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 14:52:36 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <002801c1db51$7ccf5140$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > care of it. For example, reading core is destructive, that is > it erases the contents so you have to store the contents back > into it before you do anything else (unless you don't care if > it's lost). That seems like it wou! > ld be easy enough to do in HW but I don't know if that's > what they did. The Hazeltine 2000 is a 1972-era computer terminal. It used core memory, but did not have a microprocesor, and therefore, no software. So at least the Hazeltine did it in hardware. When you'd turn it back on, it usually lost some bits, but you would always bring up the last screen that had been displayed, if someone didn't explicitly clear it. Not the kind of terminal to use in secure installtions... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixsnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From blacklord at telstra.com Wed Apr 3 14:58:54 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <3bc712b1.12b13bc7@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Smith Date: Thursday, April 4, 2002 1:20 am Subject: RE: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 > For a 1000 -- are you sure? :) I have a much easier time finding > software for my 520ST. As long as the software isn't AGA specific (or takes advantage of some of the graphics boards available), or will only run on one of the later OSes, then it'll run on the A1000. cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 3 15:01:53 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Birthyear computers In-Reply-To: <3CAB30D6.EF49A0EE@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > Even if they would sell me Stonehenge, I couldn't afford the shipping, and > > don't have enough storage space. > Some people have made a copy of stonehenge in the North East USA, out of > cement. But they forget to read the Firmware Manual that states the > rocks have to be re-adusted if moved. > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html There is also one overlooking the Columbia River from the bluffs on the south side that was built by Sam Hill who is fondly remembered every time someone says "What the Sam Hill...". - don From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 15:01:52 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAB580B.7090806@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Doc, > > Mag makes some quite small flashlights now. I believe they have one > that is keychain sized. That would be an aweful small gun barrel, plus > if it's on your key chain, it goes in the basket when you go through the > metal detector :-) That's what I carry. It's about 3" long, maybe 3/8" or 7/16" in diameter. They won't let me on the plane with it. Had my friend who works for United not been willing to come get it at the security gate and store it for me, they'd have confiscated it. Now I put it, and my little 2" Very Sharp Knife in my checked luggage. The truth is, I have absolutely no beef with that. I fly a lot. I now get to the airport at least 2 hours before my flight. I often have to spend an extra night out of town because of the added check-in time. I don't schedule connecting flights less than 1 hour from scheduled arrival to scheduled departure. And flying is a _much_ more pleasant experience. For the first time in my experience, the flying public don't treat airport and airline personnel like personal slaves. My aforementioned buddy has some unreal statistics. Lost baggage is down over 60%. Complaints and claims blaming the airlines for missed flights or connections are down nearly 75%. The airlines are more on-time, due to a lighter schedule. Wanna know what *really* throws security into a tizzy? Presentation transparencies, aka overhead projection foils. Evidently, they show up just like plastic explosives on the scope. I guarantee, they will NOT search your bag. Or let you open it, until they do the sniffer thing. :^P Doc From blacklord at telstra.com Wed Apr 3 15:04:23 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 Message-ID: <34782be3.2be33478@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Franchuk Date: Thursday, April 4, 2002 5:04 am Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 > Stan Barr wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > jpero@sympatico.ca said: > > > > > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S- > 100 box Ok, so what would I need for 1965 ? cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Apr 3 15:07:28 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706654C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >But does OpenVMS/vax support USB? No but since you're doing a PCI driver, a USB driver should be a breeze. Having a Qbus framebuffer and a USB keyboard and mouse would be fun :-) Now that I look I don't see any PCI widgets for the VAX 7000/10000 or the DEC 7000/10000. So I think PCI and TRUBOchannel are pipe-dreams. Pity, they would have been the easiest ways to get a framebuffer. Now if you get a TurboLaser (AlphaServer 8200/8400) they *do* have PCI expansion available, so you could do PCI graphics there. Possibly even multiple graphics heads :-) Antonio From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 3 15:10:59 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 03, 2002 08:23:55 AM Message-ID: <200204032111.QAA05422@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Doc once stated: > > I really, really, really wanted this to be a joke. It's really,really > not. It's worse than it appears. Jamie Zawinski (of Netscape fame) has this about it: http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/webcasting.html -spc (Bad. Very bad) From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Apr 3 15:17:32 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio In-Reply-To: <02Apr3.100803est.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: Message-ID: <3CAB1D0C.7055.5EE1AF8@localhost> I'm sure this will impact on non-USA net-stations as well since much the content is US produced music. A real downer for me since i-net radio is my only relief from the banalities of AM, and the only FM station receivable in most parts of northern Canada is CBC-FM. DAMN. Bye,bye to my jazz and classical stations. I guess I'll have to settle for Radio Cuba on SW. :^) The US corporate beast is getting VERY greedy. They may bite off more than they can chew, if they wake up enough of the US populace. Lawrence > > I really, really, really wanted this to be a joke. It's really,really > >not. > > This kind of thing explains why I no longer buy CD's or > movies, when in the past I spent quite a bit of money on tapes and > albums. Netflix.com is my source for movies, and at $20/month it > offers much better value than going to the theatre. Piracy isn't > hurting the recording industry, it's their greed coupled to the fact > that they no longer offer good value. I will not support an industry > that tries to put these strangleholds on what I can do. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Apr 3 15:17:32 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: IBM PS/1 Recovery/Install diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <27.25403371.29dc89af@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CAB1D0C.26495.5EE1B3E@localhost> That was a 2011 or 2021. If there is any #s on the disks that Rich has, like 20xx or 21xx. That would be the model number. Lawrence > Don't remeber the model number, but the 286-based micro-thin PS/1 my > parents bought back in '90 had 13 disks for it's 'install/backup set'. > The system was about 2in thick, 12in wide, included a Mouse, PS/1 software > crap, IBM DOS 4.0, MSWorks for Dos, 1M of RAM, a 1.4M floppy drive and 40M > IDE hard drive. the included 12" monitor also included they system's > power supply (how the thing was made so dang small). Also included a > weird internal 2400baud modem with a non-standard interface. > > The system got tossed (not sure I can say I'm sad about it either) when my > parents move to a condo a couple years ago. > > -- Pat > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/3/2002 8:33:45 AM Central Standard Time, > > r_beaudry@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > >><< A bit too new to be on topic, but... I was scrounging through some > > > >> >>stuff > > > >>yesterday, and unearthed a set of original diskettes for an IBM PS/1. > > > >> >> > > > > > > > >do you know what model PS/1? > > > > > > Well.... I only have the disks, and not a PS/1. They were part of another > > > lot of stuff that I got... > > > > > > Is there a way to tell from a file on the disk, or some number on the > > > outside of the disk? > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, I've been away from IBM for several years now. The early > > models used 9 or so, and the later more standard models used ~14 or more. If > > not claimed, I will take them. > > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 3 15:41:49 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio References: <200204032111.QAA05422@conman.org> Message-ID: <3CAB771D.919A35A9@rain.org> Every problem also brings opportunity ... for those that are willing. >From my experience, there is a *hugh* population of "haven't made it yet" musicians/composers/etc. It seems like it would take very little effort (relatively anyway) to organize these people so they could become more widely known ... in exchange for doing away with the abuse involved with "legitimate" record/distribution fees. Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Doc once stated: > > > > I really, really, really wanted this to be a joke. It's really,really > > not. > > It's worse than it appears. Jamie Zawinski (of Netscape fame) has this > about it: > > http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/webcasting.html > > -spc (Bad. Very bad) From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 3 15:40:30 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706654C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > >But does OpenVMS/vax support USB? > > No but since you're doing a PCI driver, > a USB driver should be a breeze. Cool. > Having a Qbus framebuffer and a USB > keyboard and mouse would be fun :-) If I had the Qbus framebuffer, I wouldn't need the USB keyboard and mouse, I don't think. It would only be necessary with the PCI framebuffer. > Now that I look I don't see any PCI widgets > for the VAX 7000/10000 or the DEC 7000/10000. > So I think PCI and TRUBOchannel are pipe-dreams. > > Pity, they would have been the easiest ways to > get a framebuffer. > > Now if you get a TurboLaser (AlphaServer 8200/8400) > they *do* have PCI expansion available, so you could > do PCI graphics there. Possibly even multiple > graphics heads :-) I could never find anything that would tell me what the difference between Laserbus and Turbolaser was. I was hoping that maybe the hose device might be compatible or something. It's a stretch, though. I wish AlphaServer 8400's weren't so damn expensive. Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 3 15:49:02 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784371@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence Walker [mailto:lgwalker@mts.net] > classical stations. I guess I'll have to settle for Radio > Cuba on SW. :^) At least that way you're acting in support of a more honest organization than RIAA (the Cuban government)! > The US corporate beast is getting VERY greedy. They may bite > off more > than they can chew, if they wake up enough of the US populace. They may, but it's just about as likely as them deciding that McDonalds isn't a good place to go out for food. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 15:56:57 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <000e01c1db5a$7ac5af80$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Joe drivers and sense amps on it so that might make things easier. However there are some things that you have to do with core and I don't know if they handled in hardware or if the OS had to take care of it. For example, reading core is destructive, that is it erases the contents so you have to store the contents back into it before you do anything else (unless you don't care if it's lost). That seems like it wou! > ld be easy enough to do in HW but I don't know if that's what they did. Not an OS task. It's usually handled in hardware either in the CPU microcode or as a synchronous timing with the cpu such that if the cpu is going to alter the data at the location it's already started the cycle. Some will stop the memory cycle after the read to see if it should write the old data back or alter it, this is usually signaled by the cpu before it outputs a new address. That would be ideal as you have something you may have data on, most of the circuits and even a clue on the timing. I'd love to play with something like that rather than a scratch build. Allison > > Joe > >At 11:41 AM 4/3/02 -0600, you wrote: >>Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing about the realities of >>using core memory. I only know that it looks like pretty cool stuff to >>play with. Would I be completely off my tree to try to build a core >>memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a pre-strung core frame with >>all the cores and wires intact? When I say "interface", I mean basically >>something that will let me talk to the core from a PC or from my >>recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. If I have a 64x64 >>frame, would I just need something on the order of 256 driver transistors >>(one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either direction) plus some >>kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the sense wire (is there >>just one of these per frame?) and determine whether or not a bit has >>flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all sorts of ghosts and goblins >>lurking in core memory that I don't want to confront? >> >> >> >> > From dittman at dittman.net Wed Apr 3 15:56:35 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706654C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Apr 03, 2002 01:07:28 PM Message-ID: <200204032156.g33LuaM18041@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >But does OpenVMS/vax support USB? > > No but since you're doing a PCI driver, > a USB driver should be a breeze. > > Having a Qbus framebuffer and a USB > keyboard and mouse would be fun :-) > > Now that I look I don't see any PCI widgets > for the VAX 7000/10000 or the DEC 7000/10000. > So I think PCI and TRUBOchannel are pipe-dreams. > > Pity, they would have been the easiest ways to > get a framebuffer. > > Now if you get a TurboLaser (AlphaServer 8200/8400) > they *do* have PCI expansion available, so you could > do PCI graphics there. Possibly even multiple > graphics heads :-) Yes, and you wouldn't need to write the drivers for the PCI adapter, either. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Apr 3 15:57:52 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 03, 2002 03:37:05 PM Message-ID: <200204032157.g33Lvqh18056@narnia.int.dittman.net> > But does OpenVMS/vax support USB? Absolutely not. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 16:01:40 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <001501c1db5b$239a34a0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Loboyko Steve To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >been mentioned before. Without those, its a heck of a >lot of discretes, and there's no way around it. Too There are pther parts out there. >a wall. I also suspect that because of all of the >unknowns involved regarding the magnetic properties of >the core that you use, the way to go about it is to If you read the article ALL of those parameters are can be tested and defined, before building the whole core plane. >of core is that there are thermistors involved also, >and that core had a very narrow range of temperature >operation. There were even programs designed >specifically to cause "hot spots" in the core in order >to test it (you'd have to know the physical layout of >the core to pull this trick off). Actually when doing that you'd also vary the slice level or the power supply levels to see where the edges are. FYI: I checks my notes and a 64x64 array needs 65 drivers and something like 192 diodes to drive the select lines. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 3 16:05:14 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <002601c1db5b$a2c968e0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Douglas H. Quebbeman >The Hazeltine 2000 is a 1972-era computer terminal. It used core >memory, but did not have a microprocesor, and therefore, no >software. > >So at least the Hazeltine did it in hardware. As did the VT52 and a slew of others. >When you'd turn it back on, it usually lost some bits, but you >would always bring up the last screen that had been displayed, >if someone didn't explicitly clear it. Not the kind of terminal >to use in secure installtions... Later ones had a power on circuit to effectively punch the clear button. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 16:24:56 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: RE: Computers Manufactured in 1986 (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178434E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15531.33080.915243.241100@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 2, Christopher Smith wrote: > > What wonderful machines these are. The first ones, though, shipped > > with 10MB drives, not 40MB, and it was SYSVR2, not 3. > > I don't doubt the 10M disk, but I've never seen anything below 3.0 for it. > > I have 3.5 on mine, with a 3.0 dev kit. That's not the UNIX SysV "release" number, that's the UnixPC 7300 OS version number...like Solaris2.x is SysVR4, but there's version 2.7, 2.8, 2.9, etc. The UnixPC 7300/3B1 OS base is definitely SysVR2. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 3 16:24:55 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: some what OT: FW: Adios, Internet Radio In-Reply-To: <3CAB771D.919A35A9@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 03, 2002 01:41:49 PM Message-ID: <200204032224.RAA05773@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Marvin Johnston once stated: > > Every problem also brings opportunity ... for those that are willing. > >From my experience, there is a *hugh* population of "haven't made it > yet" musicians/composers/etc. It seems like it would take very little > effort (relatively anyway) to organize these people so they could become > more widely known ... in exchange for doing away with the abuse involved > with "legitimate" record/distribution fees. The problem, from what I understand of it, is that the ASCAP and BMI will just sue you anyway, assuming that you *must* be playing music that is under their control. Sure, you can fight it, but you better have deep pockets. Or even if you do prove that you are playing music not under their control, you can bet that once a musician you are playing is signed, the ASCAP, BMI, RIAA, etc. will be there, waiting for you to slip up and play music that is now under *their* control and bam! Sue you out of existence. -spc (You can't impinge on their Mandate From Heaven to screw both musicians *and* consumers ... ) From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 16:42:28 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <000701c1db60$d5974ad0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > -> I assume everyone knows what casting flash is... these screws > -> have casting flash... > > Look closely. It is not casting flash. Screws aren't cast. > As mentioned in an earlier post, the heads and threads are > made by pressing (deformation) of a rod. > > When the form dies wear, are improperly secured, or are misaligned, > the result is "extruded squish", not "casting flash". I stand corrected. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 16:43:51 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? References: <3.0.6.32.20020403150835.00849570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CAB85A7.6FD191CD@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe wrote: > > Bill, > > You're a man after my own heart! I've been thinking about this for some time. I once had some NICE small core planes (16k I think) out of a HP communications analyzer and I think they would have been just about perfect for this. I had too many other projects at the time so I sold them but I know where there are some more analyzers so I may grab them and swipe the core from them. I found the service manual for the analyzer so I had the pin out for the entire machine including the core. (I still have it). IIRC the core module was about 5 inches square and had all the drivers and sense amps on it so that might make things easier. However there are some things that you have to do with core and I don't know if they handled in hardware or if the OS had to take care of it. For example, reading core is destructive, that is it erases the contents so you have to store the contents back into it before you do anything else (unless you don't care if it's lost). That seems like it wou! ! > ld be easy enough to do in HW but I don't know if that's what they did. Writing back to memory was a hardware function. Clear memory and Incriment/Decriment memory were often implimented as memory write back features. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 3 16:46:52 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Anyone know where I can find a FAQ... Message-ID: ...for MPE/iX? Peace... Sridhar From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 16:55:00 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: OT: Dell Quality Message-ID: <000f01c1db62$95d1b0f0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > PS: Oh, Your dept who bought up that 25 dells made serious > *mistake*. Only way dept can depend on them running w/ replacement > parts is dell's especially their power supplies and few oddball > boards. PSUs are totally non-standard pinouts. Oh, your dept also > didn't choose AMD and let dell know everybody else wanted > quality but flexible choices in different brands of CPUs instead > of Intel-only. Oh, I pitched MicronPC, but no one here has ever heard of them... But anyway, it's irrelevant. Every machine will be obsolete in three years, and every machine has a three-year next-day- response service contract. When the three years is up, we buy new ones and give the old ones to employees. Oh, and the only thing we've ever had go bad in Dells: * company president drops laptop and kills it * construction administrator packs one in overhead storage on plane and crushes screen * Western Digital Hard Drive failed in a new Dimension * Sony tape library jammed and replaced with another Sony * Seagate SCSI drive in PowerEdge Server RAID 5 array *will* fail * user killed mouse and lied, Dell replaced anyway * sysadmin ordered white keyboard for black computer, asked for swap, Dell sent back keyboard free And while Micron's would be nice, I'll do *anything* to avoid buying Hewcom Pacqward... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 16:57:34 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <34782be3.2be33478@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <3CAB88DE.E87B3947@jetnet.ab.ca> blacklord wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Franchuk > Date: Thursday, April 4, 2002 5:04 am > Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 > > > Stan Barr wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > jpero@sympatico.ca said: > > > > > > > I suppose to commemorate my birth, I'll need to get an S- > > 100 box > > Ok, so what would I need for 1965 ? A nice shiny new PDP/8 ! ($18,000,000 in old money). The PDP/5 came out in 1963. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 17:18:32 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <34782be3.2be33478@bigpond.com> <3CAB88DE.E87B3947@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAB8DC8.FD8F5A37@jetnet.ab.ca> Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Ok, so what would I need for 1965 ? > A nice shiny new PDP/8 ! ($18,000,000 in old money). > The PDP/5 came out in 1963. err $18,000.00 \> -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mranalog at attbi.com Wed Apr 3 17:39:33 2002 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: DSD-440 manual needed Message-ID: <3CAB92B5.218C288B@attbi.com> I really need a copy of the manual for a Data Systems Design DSD-440. If I knew what I was doing I would just ask for the switch and jumper settings, but that's not the case. I would like to get a copy of the entire manual. If someone has the manual scanned already, I can take 2MB email attachments. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog Analogrechner, calculateur analogique, calcolatore analogico, analoogrekenaar, komputer analogowy, analog bilgisayar, kampiutere ghiyasi, analoge computer. ========================================= From vaxman at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 17:47:38 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: <20020403085439.E319578@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On 2002.04.03 06:41 Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > > True, NetBSD would talk to it, but it would require NetBSD > > running on a uVAX II so the drive could be plugged in. > You have to run it only once to hack the Ultrix installation. Netbooted, > so you don't need to remove any drives. > Excellent point... I hadn't considered netbooting... > > I certainly don't have the patience to run NetBSD on a uVAX II, > > a wouldn't recommend anyone else do the same. > I installed 4.3BSD-Tahoe UNIX on my MicroVAX III. Currently I am trying > to build 4.3BSD-Reno from that base for my MicroVAX 3900. (Exhibition > project for the VCFE.) This is real fun. These machines feel quite zippy > with that old software. But this old stuff is real crude in some points. > NetBSD gives you a slower, but very smooth ride on this hardware. > My goal is also to get Tahoe running on my uVAXen, more the the learning experience than anything else... > > Unfortunately, NetBSD (and FreeBSD) is rapidly becoming > > unusable on old hardware... > If you want things like ssh ... you have to pay the price. Heh... I wouldn't expose any of my antiques to the internet... I've got a PC running FreeBSD to take the brunt of the assault, and it can be restored from tape in a matter of hours... The VAXen live on their own subnet which is air-gapped from the internet unless I really really want to ftp a file direct, in which case I power up the hub betwixt them :) > -- > > > > tschüß, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:02:28 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <20020403040025.GHWJ17738.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Apr 2, 2 11:02:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/3f441dd3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:06:55 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 2, 2 09:11:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/eede2f61/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:15:13 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020402.204434.-96547.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Apr 2, 2 08:44:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1105 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/1ae4975a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:17:10 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <000c01c1dad5$514a5640$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at Apr 3, 2 07:03:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/987daadc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:22:26 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <007901c1dadd$b25c3720$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Apr 2, 2 11:03:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1707 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/e2eb7e26/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:24:38 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Apr 3, 2 01:36:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 791 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020403/540a690a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 17:26:15 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <002701c1db21$7a30b260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 3, 2 08:08:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/18d12459/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 17:31:17 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <000d01c1db28$1967eaa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 3, 2 08:56:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/c3ee0d66/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 3 17:53:06 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <002601c1db5b$a2c968e0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> from "Allison" at Apr 3, 2 05:05:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/4afe270a/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 3 09:54:45 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program" In-Reply-To: <001801c1db4e$b37fe540$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Now John's doing fine, tho work comes to him slowly, Only because most people run the other way upon meeting him ;) > and poor Adam Osborne is slowly dying in a village in > India, from Parkinson's Disease. BTW, I'm told that one > of Adam's expressed wishes is that he be left to go in > peace... Let's all thank him for his efforts and achievements, > and wish him a Happy Journey into the hereafter. Wow, that sucks. I hadn't heard this. Any references? Why a village in India? > And please don't take that the wrong way. He was right- > my brief association with John led to my departure from > my position at the University where I'd hoped to get on > full-time... but I bear absolutely no grudge for that. The > system just plain sucks. Yawp. F THE MAN! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 3 09:57:09 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <20020403143831.T56922-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > > They are perfect. No damaged cores or wires. I'm afraid I disposed of > > the driver boards. This is the same kind of guy who would capture and kill a rhinocerous just so he could saw off it's dick and grind it up to make a tea. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 3 10:00:13 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <200204032023.g33KNg4E029556@dcms.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Don Caprio wrote: > Any ex employee's of Science Dynamics (Torrance, Ca) out there? Jeff, Neil, > Ralph, Dave, and Less are you there? I know of a Science Dynamics in New Jersey that does inmate telephone systems. Is this a genuine coincidence or is it possibly the same company? http://www.scidyn.com/ Science Dynamics Corporation (SciDyn) has been developing and delivering technologically advanced telecommunication solutions for years. The name SciDyn may be new to you, but weve been in business now for 25 years. Our solutions are installed in 18 countries around the world and currently process more than 250 million minutes per month. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 3 10:01:07 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <34782be3.2be33478@bigpond.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, blacklord wrote: > Ok, so what would I need for 1965 ? A PDP-8 ("straight-8"). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 3 18:11:34 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Anyone know where I can find a FAQ... In-Reply-To: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 03, 2002 05:46:52 PM Message-ID: <200204040011.g340BYr10600@shell1.aracnet.com> > > > ...for MPE/iX? > > Peace... Sridhar > You might check http://www.openmpe.org Zane From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 3 13:19:07 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAB580B.7090806@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:29:15 -0500 > From: Chad Fernandez > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Doc, > > Mag makes some quite small flashlights now. I believe they have one > that is keychain sized. That would be an aweful small gun barrel, plus > if it's on your key chain, it goes in the basket when you go through the > metal detector :-) > > I really should pick one of those up myself. Hmm, I DO need to go to > Lowes today, any way :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Doc wrote: > > I haven't stopped carrying them at all. But I fly a lot, so the "all > > times" part is no longer accurate. They tell me that a MicroMag > > flashlight looks too much like a pistol barrel on the 'scope. They get > > very upset about it. > > > > Doc Doc and others, If you have store or like that carries Garrity brand, pick up two cell AA flashlight. Plastic body, but ends are rubberized, has rubber tog attached. Reflector is faceted and projects bright spot far away. So far I'm still on orignal bulb and replaceable with any standard bulbs anywhere. Switch is push on-push off button type not those crappy slide type. The Maglite bi-pin bulbs are big pain, they burn out quickly, hard to find and costly. Yes I had all types of flashlights including Maglite. Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. Cheers, Wizard From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 3 18:18:54 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >To go back to the hammer for a moment, if I go out and buy a hammer and >bash somebody's head in with it, then I am guilty of murder. The company >that made the hammer, and the shop that sold it to me, are not. And >that's how it should be. Ah, but the lawyers have removed almost all signs of true personal responsibility from society. Now everyone's the victim out to make a buck or two. And yes, I realize that there are legitimate lawsuits for real negligence out there as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Apr 3 18:08:35 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Anyone know where I can find a FAQ... In-Reply-To: Sridhar the POWERful's message of "Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:46:52 -0500 (EST)" References: Message-ID: <200204040008.g3408ZMg000979@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > ...for MPE/iX? http://www.3k.com/faq/hpfaqi.html The HP3000-L mailing list (gatewayed to newsgroup comp.sys.hp.mpe) is a good place to ask HP3000-related questions. -Frank McConnell From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 18:25:19 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <001101c1db6f$3853e6c0$61eeffcc@Shadow> > > Tony, > > As hard as it may be to envision, I bet _most_ of the subscribers to > > this list do not own tap & die sets. Many probably own only one hammer, > > People here don't have soldering irons, they don't have tap and die sets. > What the heck do they use to repair computers (;-) in case you're wondering). Once upon a time, when I worked as a programmer for an hourly wage, with time-and-half for overtime, and lived rent-free, I was able to acquire a reasonable set of tools, but most of them were for the other hobby, working on my Audi's. But I do have a logic probe, a RatShack-labeled Ungar iron, heating elements up to 43 watts (glows red!), and lots of TTL parts, etc. No scope, no analyzer, nothing esoteric. But a breadboard, a manual wirewrap tool, a few spools of wirewrap, protoboards, some material for making cheap PCB boards, cheap dykes of various sizes. I used to have heat sinks, IC pullers, two rechargeable Wahl irons (well, I still have one). But now I mostly have a salary that grows 1% behind the rate of inflation and a mortgage that consumes most of the cash, with food coming in second. So, debugging hardware ofen involves totems, incense, etc. Or lots and lots of "remove and replace"... ;) From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 3 18:22:59 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Anyone know where I can find a FAQ... In-Reply-To: <200204040011.g340BYr10600@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > ...for MPE/iX? > > You might check http://www.openmpe.org Thanks a lot. Peace... Sridhar From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 18:33:45 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <001701c1db70$66133740$61eeffcc@Shadow> > > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > > > > >The Hazeltine 2000 is a 1972-era computer terminal. It used core > > >memory, but did not have a microprocesor, and therefore, no > > >software. > > > > > >So at least the Hazeltine did it in hardware. > > > > As did the VT52 and a slew of others. > > Except that every VT52 I've ever worked on used > semiconductor memory, not core. > > Anyway. the fact that there's no microprocessor does not mean that > there's no software. There are plenty of microcoded TTL designs about > (the VT52 is one of them IMHO) which have PROMs containing something that > is reasonably called firmware. Yeah, there is the old 7400 series arithmetic unit... But in my experience, most pre-micro computer equipment used fusible-link ROMs for truth-tables; a transitional item, the Processor Tech SOL's keyboard, is a good example of this. -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 18:37:09 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" Message-ID: <001d01c1db70$df97c450$61eeffcc@Shadow> > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > Now John's doing fine, tho work comes to him slowly, > > Only because most people run the other way upon meeting him ;) You just have to stand your ground, and say "no thank you". ;) > > and poor Adam Osborne is slowly dying in a village in > > India, from Parkinson's Disease. BTW, I'm told that one > > of Adam's expressed wishes is that he be left to go in > > peace... Let's all thank him for his efforts and achievements, > > and wish him a Happy Journey into the hereafter. > > Wow, that sucks. I hadn't heard this. Any references? Why > a village in India? IIRC, his father was English, his mother Hindi... There was mention of it over in alt.folklore.computers recently... -dq From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Apr 3 19:00:22 2002 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:58 2005 Subject: Anyone know where I can find a FAQ... Message-ID: The MPE news group is quite active. A lot of helpful people participate in that group. The OS documentation is available at docs.hp.com . Hardware related info is harder to come by. Good luck, SteveRob >From: Frank McConnell >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Anyone know where I can find a FAQ... >Date: 03 Apr 2002 16:08:35 -0800 > >Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > ...for MPE/iX? > >http://www.3k.com/faq/hpfaqi.html > >The HP3000-L mailing list (gatewayed to newsgroup comp.sys.hp.mpe) is >a good place to ask HP3000-related questions. > >-Frank McConnell _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 19:14:23 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > I personally have used a die for threading rod only once in the ~30 years over > > I've used small metric dies quite a few times for making custom > screwposts for IEEE-488 connectors, etc. It's a pain to use a lathe to > cut short, fine-pitch, threads unless you have to. RALMAO! Tony, I'm assuming you left off the tongue-in-cheek smiley. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 19:22:46 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Doc and others, > > If you have store or like that carries Garrity brand, pick up two > cell AA flashlight. Plastic body, but ends are rubberized, has > rubber tog attached. Reflector is faceted and projects bright spot > far away. So far I'm still on orignal bulb and replaceable with > any standard bulbs anywhere. Switch is push on-push off button type > not those crappy slide type. The Maglite bi-pin bulbs are big > pain, they burn out quickly, hard to find and costly. Yes I had all > types of flashlights including Maglite. Yes, but I don't think a double-AA light is gonna carry comfortably. As far as the Maglite bulbs, this Micro is on its 12th battery or so, and it has [what's left of] a Camel logo on it. I quit smoking in '93.... > Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red > holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. That, I didn't know. I might need it in a few years. Doc From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 3 15:02:06 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20020404020020.MTCT29105.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:22:46 -0600 (CST) > From: Doc > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Doc and others, > > > > If you have store or like that carries Garrity brand, pick up two > > cell AA flashlight. Plastic body, but ends are rubberized, has > > rubber tog attached. Reflector is faceted and projects bright spot > > far away. So far I'm still on orignal bulb and replaceable with > > any standard bulbs anywhere. Switch is push on-push off button type > > not those crappy slide type. The Maglite bi-pin bulbs are big > > pain, they burn out quickly, hard to find and costly. Yes I had all > > types of flashlights including Maglite. > > Yes, but I don't think a double-AA light is gonna carry comfortably. > As far as the Maglite bulbs, this Micro is on its 12th battery or so, > and it has [what's left of] a Camel logo on it. I quit smoking in > '93.... Good for u to quit smoking. I can stuff it in my front side pocket with reflector end sticking out. Doesn't feel uncomfortable. What the problem is that 2xAA version of Maglite bulbs blew easily and often. I would find myself swapping bulbs 2 times every set of batteries. This is smyptoms of overdriven bulb even Maglite says this is correct bulbs package. > > > Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red > > holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. > > That, I didn't know. I might need it in a few years. > > Doc (!!) Really!? Cheers, Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 3 20:09:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <001701c1db7d$b123e880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > > > > If your screws aren't 6x32's already, the easiest and probably most practical > > thing to do is get a 6x32 roll-tap, and "fix" the application so you can get > > the "right" screws whenever you need. > > Fine in the States, but have you tried getting 6-32 screws (or any small > UNC screws) over in the UK? They are essentially unobtainable. ISO metric > (M3) are trivial to get, so are the strange 'BA' screws (strange because > of the 47.5 degree thread angle for one thing!). > Well, no, since I haven't been in the U.K since the '60's. Since I buy taps by the boxful, they're cheap. The local machine tool vendor charges me the boxful price, since I buy (or used to buy) hundreds of boxfuls per year. Screws that sell for $0.35 at the hardware store cost $1.20 for a box of 100. One time I threw up my hands while at the hardware store and went to a local supply house a couple of blocks away to buy a box of washers, a box of nuts, and a box of screws, for about $1.25 for each box that would have cost over $1 for the four of each at the hardware store. I still have some of them, BTW, but it's a comfort knowing I don't have to be gouged each time I need 'em. There's probably another screw, hence another tap that would work as well in the UK, however, and I'd suggest a roll-tap in that size. They're not limited to US in their availability, nor do they come only in "English" unit sizes. Here in the U.S, if you go to a hardware or auto parts store and attempt to buy a metric bolt, you can probably get it. If you try to find a matching nut, however, it's unlikely you'll find one at a hardware or auto parts store, since there are clearly different thread pitches available and someone decided that it's not necessary to have similarly specified nuts and bolts that fit. Those of you in the U.S. ought to try this if you haven't run into it yet. I didn't realize it was possible to get nuts and bolts with matching numbers, yet not have them fit ... only in Americal ... > > A couple of my friends couldn't understand why I grabbed a couple of > boxes of random DEC screws/nuts/etc at a clearout. Well, they couldn't > understand why I did it until they came to assemble their newly-obtained > PDP11s... > DEC isn't the only vendor that used extremely odd hardware. I've had to make quite a bit of odd-ball stuff myself. > From blacklord at telstra.com Wed Apr 3 20:14:34 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <1470eeac2.eac21470e@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Date: Thursday, April 4, 2002 10:25 am Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP- 8)) > PCB boards, cheap dykes of various sizes. I used to have ^^^^^^^^^^^ This one was just *too* good to let go past :-) cheers! ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 20:38:08 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CABBC90.1030908@internet1.net> Doc wrote: > That's what I carry. It's about 3" long, maybe 3/8" or 7/16" in > diameter. They won't let me on the plane with it. Had my friend who > works for United not been willing to come get it at the security gate > and store it for me, they'd have confiscated it. Now I put it, and my > little 2" Very Sharp Knife in my checked luggage. > The truth is, I have absolutely no beef with that. Wow, that would have made me very upset. I'm all for security, but not them confiscating my property, just becasue it resembles a gun barrel. It's a working flashlight, made by the thousands, nothing special, not some James Bond, Man With a Golden Gun weapon. > I fly a lot. I > now get to the airport at least 2 hours before my flight. I often have > to spend an extra night out of town because of the added check-in time. > I don't schedule connecting flights less than 1 hour from scheduled > arrival to scheduled departure. Arriving early, is a good idea. That's the kind of thing that I believe we should expect to deal with for the sake of security. > Wanna know what *really* throws security into a tizzy? > Presentation transparencies, aka overhead projection foils. > Evidently, they show up just like plastic explosives on the scope. I > guarantee, they will NOT search your bag. Or let you open it, until > they do the sniffer thing. :^P Wow, thats wierd. 8.5" X 11, that would be alot of explosive material, I would think...... I assume the scope can't see the depth. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 20:42:59 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CABBDB3.4080007@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > You'll get no disagreement from me there... If the label says 'made in > China' then I generally look for another product! What I hate is when EVERYTHING is from China!! Too many times in the US, I look at the bottom of the box, and it says "Made in China", no matter what brand. I want quality, but sometimes it seems that I have to go too high end to get it. > > The only reason people buy such products is becasue they're cheap. And > then they find that they don't work properly or are unsafe (!). I'd > rather pay a little more at the start and have no further problems. Yup, I agree. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 3 20:44:44 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" Message-ID: <003401c1db82$b189e400$61eeffcc@Shadow> > > > PCB boards, cheap dykes of various sizes. I used to have > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > > This one was just *too* good to let go past :-) As you might expect, this requires a lot of social engineering... ;) From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 20:46:56 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CABBEA0.3030608@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>If your screws aren't 6x32's already, the easiest and probably most practical >>thing to do is get a 6x32 roll-tap, and "fix" the application so you can get >>the "right" screws whenever you need. > > > Fine in the States, but have you tried getting 6-32 screws (or any small > UNC screws) over in the UK? They are essentially unobtainable. ISO metric > (M3) are trivial to get, so are the strange 'BA' screws (strange because > of the 47.5 degree thread angle foe one thing!). What is UNC, and BA? Is BA WHitworth? I rarely find computers (pc's) that use "American" threaded screws..... probably becasue so much of the stuff is from China :-( Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 20:51:28 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3CABBFB0.7020406@internet1.net> jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Doc and others, > The Maglite bi-pin bulbs are big > pain, they burn out quickly, hard to find and costly. Yes I had all > types of flashlights including Maglite. I don't think I have ever had one burn out, but they do seem to loose there brightness after a while. My halogen torchier lamps do to, so maybe it's a halogen thing. I've only bought them once.... found them at the sporting goods dept. in Meijers. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 3 22:10:44 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020404041045.34933.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lord Isildur wrote: > i'd think. > as for pittsburgh, it is too far west i think. Probably too far west for you East Coasters, but I can get there in a few hours myself. I could even score a place to crash and make a weekend out of it. So... if Pittsbutgh is ever an option, I'll probably be able to show up. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Wed Apr 3 22:42:55 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <3CAB580B.7090806@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020403234255.00f859e8@pop1.epm.net.co> At 07:19 PM 4/3/02 +0000, you wrote: >Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red >holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. >Cheers, >Wizard Hmmm; I'm another magliter, especially the solitaire (1AAA) model. They're great for looking in dark, recessed spots in old computers :-). carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Wed Apr 3 22:47:00 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020403234700.00f85318@pop1.epm.net.co> At 07:14 PM 4/3/02 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > I personally have used a die for threading rod only once in the ~30 years over >> >> I've used small metric dies quite a few times for making custom >> screwposts for IEEE-488 connectors, etc. It's a pain to use a lathe to >> cut short, fine-pitch, threads unless you have to. > RALMAO! > Tony, I'm assuming you left off the tongue-in-cheek smiley. > > Doc Hmmm... hpib connector screwposts come in both metric and US varieties; it sucks when you have a mixture of both. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 3 22:48:22 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020404044822.80503.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) > > DOWN WITH FRED! EVIL PURVEYOR OF ILLEGAL TOOLS OF CRIME!!! FIE! FIE! Fire up the molten iron vats! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 22:48:36 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020404020020.MTCT29105.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red > > > holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. > > > > That, I didn't know. I might need it in a few years. > > > > Doc > > (!!) Really!? You mean I really didn't know there's a spare bulb? Really. Or if you mean have I really been running on one bulb for nearly 10 years, yes really. Doc From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Wed Apr 3 22:50:46 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CABBFB0.7020406@internet1.net> References: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020403235046.00f81fcc@pop1.epm.net.co> At 09:51 PM 4/3/02 -0500, you wrote: >jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: >> Doc and others, >> The Maglite bi-pin bulbs are big >> pain, they burn out quickly, hard to find and costly. Yes I had all >> types of flashlights including Maglite. >I don't think I have ever had one burn out, but they do seem to loose >there brightness after a while. My halogen torchier lamps do to, so >maybe it's a halogen thing. I've had some of those bulbs burn. You can find rayovac brand replacements at kmarts. >I've only bought them once.... found them at the sporting goods dept. in >Meijers. >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From tom at sba.miami.edu Wed Apr 3 22:52:38 2002 From: tom at sba.miami.edu (Tom Leffingwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: <3C9ADFF7.85A4B9E9@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If you are going to have a CD on your real PDP-11 with a Qbus host adapter, > then if you want to be able to boot partition zero, I suggest you use the > command: > COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: > to the partition you are going to place on the CD. MANY other aspects also > need to be considered if it will be a bootable partition. I've been out of touch with the list for a little while, so I just got this. Anyway, what would the many aspects be? I was operating on the assumption that the image I would get or make would have already been copy/boot'ed so, it should be a bootable image, and if transferred as an exact image to the CD it should work. I did finally manage to get my RX02's copied to a VMS machine. The guy that was helping me (who had the vax/vms machine) was out of town for awhile. Anyway, we copied an image of a bootable floppy to the VMS machine, and back to a new floppy, which booted fine with no need to copy/boot it (since the imagine was already that way). We also used VMS exchange to may .dsk files. I need to read up a little more on exchange, but I was thinking if I can work with the .dsk imagines of the ftpable RT-11 5.03, I should be copy in my program and then copy that to a SCSI disk, make sure its bootable, and then make an image of it. The .dsk files seem to be little file on file systems as opposed to just making an image. Thanks, Tom From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 23:04:33 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CABBC90.1030908@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Wow, that would have made me very upset. I'm all for security, but not > them confiscating my property, just becasue it resembles a gun barrel. > It's a working flashlight, made by the thousands, nothing special, not > some James Bond, Man With a Golden Gun weapon. Well, I guess "confiscated" was the wrong term. My checked baggage was checked, my ride dropped me and left, and my only option was to leave it there or leave with it. So if Jim hadn't been on shift, I'd have probably lost my light. It _felt_ like confiscation, and I _was_ upset. > Arriving early, is a good idea. That's the kind of thing that I believe > we should expect to deal with for the sake of security. Saw a lasy in Denver in November show up at the security check-in 20 minutes before her flight boarded. She naturally got tagged for a thorough search, and started screaming at security about missing her flight and her rights. It wasn't security who very quickly shut her up, it was the looks she was getting from the other travelers. Quite gratifying. > > Wanna know what *really* throws security into a tizzy? > > Wow, thats wierd. 8.5" X 11, that would be alot of explosive material, > I would think...... I assume the scope can't see the depth. Nah, I think the scope shows depth, and I usually have a stack 3/4" or more if I have any. The experienced personnel pretty much expect that it's foils, but the rookies, and there are a lot of rookies this year, handle the bag very very gently. As I said, even the veterans don't want it opened till after they check for residues. My sister-in-law doesn't mind any of that. It's the guys wearing camo and carrying AR-15s that put her off. She won't step into an airport. Doc From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 3 23:13:47 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: IBM 3192s Message-ID: I've got a pair of them sitting here, looking for a home. They seem to power up, but don't display anything. Just looking for enough to buy me a lunch + shipping. Also have for dispersal: StorageTek 2920 9-track PERTEC interface tape drive, might need a new head, otherwise completely functional. $5 + shipping -- It's 150lbs and rackmount - about 24"Hx18"Wx12"D If no one wants it, it'll end up as scrap. UPS/FedEx/USPS won't ship this I'm sure. Mac Quadra 610, Mac IIci, Quadra 700. $10ea OBO. Apple //e. One has Disk ][ interface + 1 drive + 64k RAM expansion card, one has Duodisk interface and drive. I'm willing to give out as much of these as wanted. $5 each, what I paid for it, + shipping. Thanks for supporting your local poor college student. -- Pat From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 3 18:18:08 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020403234255.00f859e8@pop1.epm.net.co> References: <20020404001721.KCQQ10852.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20020404051623.DQFO17617.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > At 07:19 PM 4/3/02 +0000, you wrote: > >Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red > >holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. > >Cheers, > >Wizard > > Hmmm; I'm another magliter, especially the solitaire (1AAA) model. > They're great for looking in dark, recessed spots in old computers :-). > > carlos. Yes had one, since it's rather small, lost it (!!) but bulb in it last long time! I also had Maglite 2xAA model, these always been bulb eaters. Since when I have my Garrity 2xAA w/ faceted reflector, I have now through 5 sets of batteries and bulb still original, before that garrity, I used to replace 1 or 2 bulbs every SET of batteries on 2xAA maglite. Youch! Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 23:21:37 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: <20020404044822.80503.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CABE2E1.B0DDE637@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > DOWN WITH FRED! EVIL PURVEYOR OF ILLEGAL TOOLS OF CRIME!!! FIE! FIE! > > Fire up the molten iron vats! Hmm Tar and Feathers must have gone out of style. :) Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 23:31:42 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CABE53E.6020304@internet1.net> Doc wrote: > Well, I guess "confiscated" was the wrong term. My checked baggage > was checked, my ride dropped me and left, and my only option was to > leave it there or leave with it. So if Jim hadn't been on shift, I'd > have probably lost my light. > It _felt_ like confiscation, and I _was_ upset. I see. > Nah, I think the scope shows depth, and I usually have a stack 3/4" or > more if I have any. The experienced personnel pretty much expect that > it's foils, but the rookies, and there are a lot of rookies this year, > handle the bag very very gently. As I said, even the veterans don't > want it opened till after they check for residues. 3/4 of an inch??? Wow, that would be several presentations, I hope! > > My sister-in-law doesn't mind any of that. It's the guys wearing camo > and carrying AR-15s that put her off. She won't step into an airport. AR-15? I didn't know the military used them. Sure there not M-16's? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 3 23:51:37 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: DEC part aniti-static matt? Message-ID: <3CABE9E9.6020102@internet1.net> Hello Listers, Awhile back I scrapped/recycled/trashed an R400X DSSI expansion chassis. Between the steel back cover a back of the backplane, I found a plastic sheet, part number 7438980-01 rev. c01g?r0? The question marks follow guesses on smeared digits.... My question is this: Could this succesfully be used as an anti-static work surface? It doesn't seem to attract lint like I would expect, which makes me wonder. Maybe it was simply to protect the backplane from shorting? Would I be better off using a sheet of cardboard? It would be nice to have something to lay cards on while sorting/re-assembling/etc. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 3 23:57:28 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CABE53E.6020304@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > 3/4 of an inch??? Wow, that would be several presentations, I hope! 4 days worth.... > > AR-15? I didn't know the military used them. Sure there not M-16's? Well, they don't like it if you look too close, and the corporal at DFW didn't think it was OK at all when I asked to see. But I'm fairly sure it's the old Colt AR-15. Way, way bigger than a M16. Remember, these are National Guard, not regular Army. They don't get those little MP5s. :( Doc From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 4 00:17:05 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: <3CABBEA0.3030608@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001d01c1dba0$57ff8b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Over the past decade I've seen the screws that hold the board in PC's go from some ridiculously fine metric to what seems to be 6x32. The screws they provide fit 6x32 nuts just fine. I'd have thought the finer thread would last longer, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:46 PM Subject: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > Tony Duell wrote: > >>If your screws aren't 6x32's already, the easiest and probably most practical > >>thing to do is get a 6x32 roll-tap, and "fix" the application so you can get > >>the "right" screws whenever you need. > > > I rarely find computers (pc's) that use "American" threaded screws..... > probably becasue so much of the stuff is from China :-( > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > > From hhacker at ev1.net Thu Apr 4 00:41:58 2002 From: hhacker at ev1.net (William R. Buckley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" In-Reply-To: <001d01c1db70$df97c450$61eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >> >> > Now John's doing fine, tho work comes to him slowly, >> >> Only because most people run the other way upon meeting him ;) > >You just have to stand your ground, and say "no thank you". > >;) > >> > and poor Adam Osborne is slowly dying in a village in >> > India, from Parkinson's Disease. BTW, I'm told that one >> > of Adam's expressed wishes is that he be left to go in >> > peace... Let's all thank him for his efforts and achievements, >> > and wish him a Happy Journey into the hereafter. >> >> Wow, that sucks. I hadn't heard this. Any references? Why >> a village in India? > >IIRC, his father was English, his mother Hindi... > >There was mention of it over in alt.folklore.computers recently... > >-dq I once met John Draper at a Hackers Conference. He did not seem that bad a person to know. What is it about him that others on this list find undesireable? William R. Buckley From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Apr 4 01:09:31 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <00b501c1d9f7$c83831c0$7ded9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020404170837.02057c40@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 10:31 PM 1/04/2002 -0500, ajp166 wrote: >Good PCs can be built but, you do have to work at it. I seem to recall that DEC made some of the world's best PCs. At least one of the things that made them so good was that they had Alpha chips in them. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Apr 4 01:10:49 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <074c01c1d9fb$8178c980$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020404171023.02057c40@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 11:04 PM 1/04/2002 -0500, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: >What are some good old computers manufactured in 1986? MicroVAX-IIs come immediately to mind... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Apr 4 01:36:08 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784314@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020404173425.02057c40@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 12:23 PM 2/04/2002 -0600, Christopher Smith wrote: >A VAX-11/780 (...but what would I run on it? It would have to be >RSTS/E, since VMS 1.0 hadn't been released, probably.) I thought that VMS was ready and shipped with all VAX-11/780s. We ran VMS on the VAX that was shipped to La Trobe University in either late 1979 or very early 1980. From dim memory, it was running V1.5. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 4 01:56:38 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: >To go back to the hammer for a moment, if I go out and buy a hammer and >bash somebody's head in with it, then I am guilty of murder. The company >that made the hammer, and the shop that sold it to me, are not. And >that's how it should be. Scary thing is... here in the US, it doesn't seem to work that logically. People have been sueing gun manufacturers off and on because they made the gun that was used to kill someone. I don't know if anyone has WON a suit, but I do know the suits have been filed (and win or loose, you are costing the gun maker needless legal troubles). Sueing people has become so much the norm here... that the government has had to step in and offer insurance backing for the companies cleaning up the world trade center... because the companies know ALREADY that there will be lawsuits when they are done, and without insurance, they know they will be sued into bankruptcy. AND, since it is such a known fact that they will be sued... no insurance company was willing to insure them, which meant they weren't willing to do the work... so the government had to step in and offer backing. F-ing scary! Remember, this is the country that awarded 3 million dollars to a lady because she put her hot coffee in her lap, and then spilled it... and was able to sue McDonalds because the coffee was too hot and it burned her (yes, there is more to that story, but the fact that she was even able to get to trial is just f-ed up... where is the personal responsibility in this country?!?) -chris From clillie1 at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 4 02:26:11 2002 From: clillie1 at socal.rr.com (Chris Lillie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: ibm thinkpad parts Message-ID: <011001c1dbb2$ed287dc0$1c4aa518@socal.rr.com> IN STOCK DEALS!! 02K6900 IBM TP 1400 ac adapter 350 20.00 new 10L1259 IBM TP 770Z system board 50 150.00 new 12J1944 IBM TP 365x keyboard 403 10.00 new 12J2005 IBM TP 770 keyboard assembly/unit 500 15.00 new 30L2533 IBM TP 770x system board 59 150.00 new 30L2736 IBM TP 570 system board 140 145.00 new 08K3315 IBM TP A20m system board Celeron 200 280.00 ref 13P3156 IBM TP A20m sys board PIII 750 150 355.00 new 10L1353 IBM TP SYS BD TP600X 2645 3 350.00 NEW 02k6639 IBM TP 570 BATTERY LITH/ION 30 35.00 NEW PA2450U Toshiba AC ADAPTER TECRA 530 550 8000 P7000 100 29.00NEW 29H9395 KEYBOARD IBM TP 760C/CD /ED 760EL/ L/LD 300 10.00NEW 29H9226 11.1 TFT LCD IBM TP 760C/CD /ED 760EL/ L/LD 100 26.00NEW 45H5735 12.1 TFT LCD IBM TP 760C/CD /ED 760EL/ L/LD 100 28.00NEW 19K5686 IBM IEEE 1394 PCMCIA CARD BUS 200 28.00NEW DDYS-T36950 IBM 36.7 GB 10K RPM P/N 07N3235 100 225.00NEW SOLID TECHNOLOGY 1599 Superior Ave. A2 Costa Mesa, CA 92627 949-646-2181 / FAX 949-646-2185 call for your ibm think pad system boards 949-646-2181 all ibm think pad parts in stock From caprio at dcms.com Thu Apr 4 02:25:09 2002 From: caprio at dcms.com (Don Caprio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:04:59 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <200204040825.g348P99E002000@dcms.com> >On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Don Caprio wrote: > >> Any ex employee's of Science Dynamics (Torrance, Ca) out there? Jeff, Neil, >> Ralph, Dave, and Less are you there? > >I know of a Science Dynamics in New Jersey that does inmate telephone >systems. Is this a genuine coincidence or is it possibly the same >company? > >http://www.scidyn.com/ I started working for Science Dynamics in 1972. The company had been around for about five years when I joined. After I left in 81 the company was bought by McDonald Douglas (I think). McDonald Douglas had it for a while ran it into the ground and then it was repurchased by the Ex-CEO. Don't know what happened to it after that. > Science Dynamics Corporation (SciDyn) has been developing and delivering > technologically advanced telecommunication solutions for years. The name > SciDyn may be new to you, but weve been in business now for 25 years. Our > solutions are installed in 18 countries around the world and currently > process more than 250 million minutes per month. I'm sure the common names are just a coincidence. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 4 02:58:55 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Agreed, it's a horrible connector. But there are not that many better > > > choices. Separate BNCs (which _I_ would like) would be unworkable for > > > the j-random-public. The coax inserts in the D shell (like the 13W3) > > > are not much better and are very expensive. I've been seriously > > > looking for an easy-to-wire, good quality, RGB video connector (say 5 > > > coax cores + logic lines) and have not found one yet. > > > > I think AMP makes some connectors that fit your description, but they are > > pricey. > > And I'll bet they need some expensive (very expensive) crimp tool to > fit them to the cable... Probably so. I currently have a similar problem with what I would have expected to be a common connector...I've got a pile of 0.250" 16-14 "flag-style" fast-on (quick connect) type crimp terminals, and I still can't find a crimper or crimp die for them that isn't in the $800 (AMP's tool) price range. Anyone know of an inexpensive solution for these? I was surprised to find that Paladin or Ideal didn't make a die set for these types of terminals. > One advantage of the SCART connector is that it can be wired using a > normal soldering iron only. As can (real) BNCs of course... Or just about any other quality RF connector... -Toth From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 05:16:09 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: "Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" Message-ID: <000701c1dbca$1f3d6ac0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > At 07:19 PM 4/3/02 +0000, you wrote: > >Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red > >holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. > >Cheers, > >Wizard > > Hmmm; I'm another magliter, especially the solitaire (1AAA) model. > They're great for looking in dark, recessed spots in old computers :-). I got my Solitaire free by answering a survey from ADP back when I was self-employed. I explained I didn't have a staff, but the caller said that didn't mind. I find the bulbs only lose lifespan when you drop the flashlight a time or two.. they simply aren't shock-resistant. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 4 05:30:16 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Strange idea in VAX In-Reply-To: References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706654C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <20020404133016.A324011@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 04:40:30PM -0500, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > If I had the Qbus framebuffer, I wouldn't need the USB keyboard and mouse, Yes. QDSS and QVSS have buid in LK201 / VSxxx interfaces. I have one of each. When I have 4.3BSD-Tahoe and 4.3BSD-Reno running on two of my MicroVAXen, I will try to put this odd things to life. I think that it would fit well in my VCFE exhibition. :-) > I wish AlphaServer 8400's weren't so damn expensive. A DEC 8400 went for less than 2000$ EPay germany last year. I was tempted, but I could resist. I will save this space for a VAX 6660. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 4 05:37:35 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) In-Reply-To: <20020403051510.YBTK19878.imf22bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3CAC571F.2468.2C6F32F6@localhost> > > From: Hans Franke > > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? > Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! :)) > Would you really trash a ZX81 to get a US$2.00 part which is commonly > available??? If you got some 2016s laying around, I'd be more than willing to frre you of this burden. > If you decide to go through with such a plan, will you please save the > leftover ZX81 parts? Certain parts of these things are becoming very hard > to find. I'll pay the freight if you send them to me! If you don't want > to send them out of Germany please give them to deserving ZX-TEAM members > near you! You realy think I'd dump any computer stuff ? And for Tony, it's not that 2016/6116s are rare, only the 2016s. I got none left in my junkpile. Of course, from a strict functional aproach I can use a 6116 almose anywhere a 2016 was used ... just when restoring a machine I try to use the same type whenever possible, and functional replacements only if there'S no other way. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rdd at rddavis.org Wed Apr 3 21:39:11 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020404033911.GA2001@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Chris, from writings of Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 02:14:14PM -0500: > Rumor has it (haven't gotten around to trying, as most trailers suck > anyway), if it is streamed with QuickTime, and you have the QuickTime 4.0 > or earlier player, you can bypass their anti-save ability. > > Also, I know a number of the non savable streams become saveable in > QuickTime 5.0 IF it is registered as a Pro version. The funny thing about all this rubbish about copy-protection of audio and video is that one can use very simple means to bypass it. For example, just connect a few wires and use audio out to audio in. Just use a program, like one of the audio mixing programs, for example, or whatever, for making a digital recording. Ok, so one is going from digital to analog to digital, but, one can do this without inducing noticable distortion. As to video, there are digital cameras. :-) Now, I guess providing the aforementioned information makes me a criminal too. What's next, the outlawing of analog audio equipment, and people being arrested for the posession of such equipment or related paraphanalia such as cassette tapes, phonograph styli, or RCA plugs attached to shielded cables? > Humm... better send Apple's QT team to jail, sounds like they are > releasing software that can bypass copy protection. :-) We need more people like them. :-) BTW, has anyone here had any luck with making a copy of a game called Undersea (Underwater?) Adventure for PC-DOS? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at rddavis.org Wed Apr 3 12:37:13 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20020403145043.GC880545@uiuc.edu> References: <007501c1da11$4eb70140$7685d642@Smith.earthlink.net> <20020403145043.GC880545@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20020403183713.GA1609@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Dan Wright, from writings of Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 08:50:43AM -0600: > Tony Duell said: > > > > And as for restricting knowledge that could be used to commit crimes, > > well, you'd better remove the brains of most of the population right now... Hasn't that already been done? Based upon everyday observations, something similar appears to have happened to a large percentage of the population, alas. "Education" appears to be responsible. How's that for doublespeak? > Has everyone read _1984_? I just finished it and it's quite good ;) anyway, > very instructive, and frightening, on this point... The instructor that I had for English 102 required the class to read that Orwell book (_1984_) along with Ray Bradburry's _Fahrenheit 451_- you may want to take a look at the later as well. The aforementioned instructor is no longer alive. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 05:40:39 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing Message-ID: <000f01c1dbcd$8bb66690$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > DOWN WITH FRED! EVIL PURVEYOR OF ILLEGAL TOOLS OF CRIME!!! FIE! FIE! > > > > Fire up the molten iron vats! > > Hmm Tar and Feathers must have gone out of style. :) And it's pretty hard to run someone out of town on a rail when hardly anyone knows how to make s split-rail fence anymore... ...and Grampa forgot to show me... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 4 00:49:27 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: IBM 3192s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020404114740.DPQR19941.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi Pat, > Mac Quadra 610, Mac IIci, Quadra 700. $10ea OBO. Has someone claimed the Quadra 700 yet? > -- Pat Cheers, Wizard From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Thu Apr 4 05:54:34 2002 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: OT: Shoddy hammers (was Re: Shoddy Hardware and other things) In-Reply-To: <000701c1dbca$1f3d6ac0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> References: <000701c1dbca$1f3d6ac0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020404115434.GE3189@mail.er-grp.com> On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:16:09AM -0500, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > I find the bulbs only lose lifespan when you drop the flashlight a > time or two.. they simply aren't shock-resistant. I gave up after destroying all the spare bulbs I had and surgically replaced the bulb with a green led. Sure, I can't see a thing with it but it sure takes them hits a lot better. "When all you've got is a nail, everything looks like a hammer." > > -dq > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits Uh. I just noticed how hard pig-latin is for someone who's not so adept with the language (previously) known as English :-) What I need now is a mutt-hook + non-perl script to convert ixnaylanguage into English. -- jht From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 4 06:06:43 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Amish Virus Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020404070643.0081f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> AMISH VIRUS: Thou have just received the Amish Virus. Since we do not have electricity nor computers, thou art on the honor system. Please delete all of thine files. Thank thee. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 4 05:57:14 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: References: <20020403085439.E319578@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020404135714.B324011@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 04:47:38PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > My goal is also to get Tahoe running on my uVAXen, more the the > learning experience than anything else... Yes. That was one of my intentions too. Once I got that fscked Quasi-BSD thing installed, rebuilding real -Tahoe was reletive easy. Getting -Reno to run is much more work. (Still struggling with libc...) > Heh... I wouldn't expose any of my antiques to the internet... Hee. I visited the HAL2001. Big hacker meeting in .nl last summer. I exposed my PDP 11 running 2.11 BSD to the net with > 3000 hackers^W script kiddys around. It was not hacked. I asume nobody of that script kiddys knows today what a PDP 11 is. :-) There are still some other things independent to networking that may be show stoppers for "modern" software. No mmap(2), only K&R C, ... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 06:00:06 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <001e01c1dbd0$43454c20$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I started working for Science Dynamics in 1972. The company had been around > for about five years when I joined. After I left in 81 the company was > bought by McDonald Douglas (I think). McDonald Douglas had it for a while ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Unless this is a new food franchise in airports, I think you mean McDonnell-Douglas... ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 4 06:08:22 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CAC5E56.23318.2C8B5F8C@localhost> > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) > > They probably will, very soon. :( > Did John Draper write "Easy Writer" WHILE he was in jail? Now, that's the story he told me ... or well, at least what my memory tells me he said. I'm geting old. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 4 06:32:59 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: M16 vs AR-15 Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CABE53E.6020304@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020404073259.008195e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:57 PM 4/3/02 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > >> 3/4 of an inch??? Wow, that would be several presentations, I hope! > > 4 days worth.... >> >> AR-15? I didn't know the military used them. Sure there not M-16's? > > Well, they don't like it if you look too close, and the corporal at >DFW didn't think it was OK at all when I asked to see. But I'm fairly >sure it's the old Colt AR-15. Way, way bigger than a M16. I doubt they were AR-15s. The only ones that the US military ever bought were for the USAF in the early sixtys and before they were accepted and standardized as the M-16. Even those AR-15s were full auto. But most AR-15s are semi-auto only and are sold to the civilian market. The AR-15 and M-16 are exactly the same size. The only difference would be if you got a target version, carbine or something else that is non-standard. But even those use the same receiver, magazine, etc. One thing that might be throwing you off is the fact that the current AR-15s and M16s use a longer heavier barrel and a bigger ROUND hand guard than the Vietnam era M-16s that many people are used to seeing. Incidently, that sale to the USAF is what got the US government (civilian, not military) looking at the question of what was the best arm for the military and that ultimately lead to the abandonment of the M-14 and the adoption of the M-16. (just in time for the fun and games in SEA. Wahoo!) Remember, >these are National Guard, not regular Army. They don't get those little >MP5s. :( Only special forces get those. All regular forces of the USA, USAF, CG, Navy, etc and the NG use M-16s. Police, DEA, US Customs, etc are another story. They can have what ever they're willing to pay for. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 4 06:41:21 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: taps Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c1db28$1967eaa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020404074121.00818e70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:31 AM 4/4/02 +0100, Tony wrote: >> I personally have used a die for threading rod only once in the ~30 years over > >I've used small metric dies quite a few times for making custom >screwposts for IEEE-488 connectors, etc. It's a pain to use a lathe to >cut short, fine-pitch, threads unless you have to. > >> which I've owned one. Normally, when I needed a tap, I simply bought one, for >> about half a dollar. Now, I'm not quite ready to give up the tap wrenches I > >There's something wrong here. You get taps for 50 cents? Over here I pay >about \pounds 5,00 for normal sized ones and a _lot_ more for very large >or very small ones. > >Of course I only buy known name-brand HSS taps. The cheap carbon steel >ones with badly formed threads are not worth bothering with.... That's probably why he's throwing them away and buying new ones everytime! I have some taps that date back to the early 1900s and are still in good condition. Odd size taps costs a small fortune! I've got some that cost well over $200 each (not that I paid that much for them). I probably have over $5000 worth of taps alone and they all fit into cabinet that measures 8 x 12 x 15". Joe From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 06:53:57 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program Message-ID: <006801c1dbd7$c8b7b9e0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) > > > They probably will, very soon. :( > > > > Did John Draper write "Easy Writer" WHILE he was in jail? > > Now, that's the story he told me ... or well, at least > what my memory tells me he said. I'm geting old. Here's an early reference, from the comments of the source code to FIG-FORTH 1.1 dated 17-September-1979, one year after I met him on exit from Harrisville: ; APPLE FORTH BY CapN' SOFTWARE $40.00 ; EASYWRITER (word processor for APPLE ; by CapN' SOFTWARE) $100.00 So it appears it was an Apple II package before it was an IBM package. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 4 07:08:13 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program In-Reply-To: <006801c1dbd7$c8b7b9e0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAC6C5D.15180.2CC22DB3@localhost> From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Subject: Re: When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program Date sent: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:53:57 -0500 Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > > You may as well put Fred in jail for Xenocopy, in fact ;) > > > > They probably will, very soon. :( > > > > > > Did John Draper write "Easy Writer" WHILE he was in jail? > > > > Now, that's the story he told me ... or well, at least > > what my memory tells me he said. I'm geting old. > Here's an early reference, from the comments of the source code > to FIG-FORTH 1.1 dated 17-September-1979, one year after I met > him on exit from Harrisville: > ; APPLE FORTH BY CapN' SOFTWARE $40.00 > ; EASYWRITER (word processor for APPLE > ; by CapN' SOFTWARE) $100.00 > So it appears it was an Apple II package before it was an IBM package. Of course it was - I always thought we are talking about the Apple Version. The IBM port was later on developed. As a fun fact he told me that they used an 8086 S100 system from Seattle Computer Products for development, since they didn't get any hardware info from IBM, except that the CPU is an Intel 8086. So when the IBM guys finaly came around with a super secret PC prototyp - only to be given to them for one day and only while the IBM staff was at site, they managed to get the Easy Writer working within two hours or so ... Well, I liked the sory anyway. Gruss H. BTW: who remembers the key combination to get into forth from within the Apple version ? -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 4 08:13:31 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CABBEA0.3030608@internet1.net> Message-ID: BA is British Association. I think 2BA and 4BA are the most common sizes we might see. UNC is Unified Coarse which is almost, but not quite, the same as ANC. BA is not Whitworth. On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>If your screws aren't 6x32's already, the easiest and probably most practical > >>thing to do is get a 6x32 roll-tap, and "fix" the application so you can get > >>the "right" screws whenever you need. > > > > > > Fine in the States, but have you tried getting 6-32 screws (or any small > > UNC screws) over in the UK? They are essentially unobtainable. ISO metric > > (M3) are trivial to get, so are the strange 'BA' screws (strange because > > of the 47.5 degree thread angle foe one thing!). > > What is UNC, and BA? Is BA WHitworth? > > I rarely find computers (pc's) that use "American" threaded screws..... > probably becasue so much of the stuff is from China :-( > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 08:15:06 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <001e01c1dbd0$43454c20$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020404141506.56645.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > I started working for Science Dynamics in 1972. The company had been > around > > for about five years when I joined. After I left in 81 the company was > > bought by McDonald Douglas (I think). McDonald Douglas had it for a > while > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Unless this is a new food franchise in airports, > I think you mean McDonnell-Douglas... > > ;) You want fries with that MD-80? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 08:23:32 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) In-Reply-To: <3CAC571F.2468.2C6F32F6@localhost> Message-ID: <20020404142333.32014.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans Franke wrote: > > > From: Hans Franke > > > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? > > > Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! > > :)) Hans, one of these times when you pull someone's leg, it's going to come right off in your hand. :-) > If you got some 2016s laying around, I'd be more than willing > to frre you of this burden. Not free, but... > And for Tony, it's not that 2016/6116s are rare, only the 2016s. > I got none left in my junkpile. bgmicro.com - 2016, 2Kx8, 200ns - $1.00 each (same price as their 6116s). They also appear to have 2118-4 16K(bit?) SRAMs - $0.70. Weren't these one of the other ZX81 drop-ins that we've been discussing? I just discovered a part in their catalog for my next order - 4027 DRAM... They appear on some PDP-11/03 CPU boards, and in my Gorf cabinet, IIRC. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 4 08:30:59 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) In-Reply-To: <20020404142333.32014.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3CAC571F.2468.2C6F32F6@localhost> Message-ID: <3CAC7FC3.29252.2D0DF348@localhost> > > > > From: Hans Franke > > > > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? > > > Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! > > :)) > Hans, one of these times when you pull someone's leg, it's going to > come right off in your hand. :-) hmmm... > > And for Tony, it's not that 2016/6116s are rare, only the 2016s. > > I got none left in my junkpile. > bgmicro.com - 2016, 2Kx8, 200ns - $1.00 each (same price as their 6116s). > They also appear to have 2118-4 16K(bit?) SRAMs - $0.70. Weren't these > one of the other ZX81 drop-ins that we've been discussing? I just > discovered a part in their catalog for my next order - 4027 DRAM... > They appear on some PDP-11/03 CPU boards, and in my Gorf cabinet, IIRC. Ahh. Thank you (good Morning anyway :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 4 08:33:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: taps Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: <000d01c1db28$1967eaa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3.0.6.32.20020404074121.00818e70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002801c1dbe5$a60c4420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 5:41 AM Subject: taps Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) > At 12:31 AM 4/4/02 +0100, Tony wrote: > >> I personally have used a die for threading rod only once in the ~30 years over > > > >I've used small metric dies quite a few times for making custom > >screwposts for IEEE-488 connectors, etc. It's a pain to use a lathe to > >cut short, fine-pitch, threads unless you have to. > > > >> which I've owned one. Normally, when I needed a tap, I simply bought one, for > >> about half a dollar. Now, I'm not quite ready to give up the tap wrenches I > > > >There's something wrong here. You get taps for 50 cents? Over here I pay > >about \pounds 5,00 for normal sized ones and a _lot_ more for very large > >or very small ones. > Large taps cost more because there's more steel in them. A small tap is the size of a pencil lead, while a large tap is the size of a drinking glass. Common sizes are cheap, but the smaller ones are easy to break. Most of the taps I've seen broken, or broken myself, have been broken in a hand operation rather than in a machine. Once set up in a machine, they generally go dull before they break. A few out of every box do break, however. > > >Of course I only buy known name-brand HSS taps. The cheap carbon steel > >ones with badly formed threads are not worth bothering with.... > > That's probably why he's throwing them away and buying new ones everytime! I have some taps that date back to the early 1900s and are still in good condition. Odd size taps costs a small fortune! I've got some that cost well over $200 each (not that I paid that much for them). I probably have over $5000 worth of taps alone and they all fit into cabinet that measures 8 x 12 x 15". > That's not necessarily the case, if you tap 10K holes per day. You buy lots of taps because every 30th-100th time you have to replace the by now dull tap with a sharp one. You then decide whether you want to buy new ones or have them sharpened. New ones are generally cheaper, so you sell the ones you don't break to someone who sharpens them and resells them You can buy resharpened taps, too. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 4 08:36:51 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) References: <20020404142333.32014.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401c1dbe6$2939cf20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:23 AM Subject: Re: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) > > --- Hans Franke wrote: > > > > From: Hans Franke > > > > So it looks as if ZX 81s are a good source to get 2016s ? > > > > > Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh! > > > > :)) > > Hans, one of these times when you pull someone's leg, it's going to > come right off in your hand. :-) > > > If you got some 2016s laying around, I'd be more than willing > > to frre you of this burden. > > Not free, but... > > > And for Tony, it's not that 2016/6116s are rare, only the 2016s. > > I got none left in my junkpile. > > bgmicro.com - 2016, 2Kx8, 200ns - $1.00 each (same price as their 6116s). > They also appear to have 2118-4 16K(bit?) SRAMs - $0.70. Weren't these 2118's are 16Kbx1 5-volt-only DRAMs. > one of the other ZX81 drop-ins that we've been discussing? I just > discovered a part in their catalog for my next order - 4027 DRAM... I've still got a few (<100) 4027 types that I'd be happy to donate to whomever for the cost of USPS priority mail, just in case someone has a device that needs 'em. > They appear on some PDP-11/03 CPU boards, and in my Gorf cabinet, IIRC. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 4 08:45:57 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? References: Message-ID: <3CAC6725.849C9ABC@compsys.to> >Tom Leffingwell wrote: > >On Thu, 21 Mar 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > If you are going to have a CD on your real PDP-11 with a Qbus host adapter, > > then if you want to be able to boot partition zero, I suggest you use the > > command: > > COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: > > to the partition you are going to place on the CD. MANY other aspects also > > need to be considered if it will be a bootable partition. > I've been out of touch with the list for a little while, so I just got > this. Anyway, what would the many aspects be? I was operating on the > assumption that the image I would get or make would have already been > copy/boot'ed so, it should be a bootable image, and if transferred as an > exact image to the CD it should work. Jerome Fine replies: Since I have used a CD burner for only a month, I was limited to the experience of using only the RT-11 Freeware CD from Tim Shoppa. Also, since I had only an IDE CDROM drive on a PC, my experience using the CD was only under E11 under Windows 95 and Windows 98. I did try and connect a SCSI CDROM drive to a Qbus CQD 220/TM on a real PDP-11, but was not able to get it to work. More recently, I think I have been able to copy a file which had been tested to see if it could be used to successfully boot RT-11 (under E11 under Windows 98). I copied that file to a CD and was able to "View" all of the blocks on the CD in their correct locations on the CD using Nero Burning, but I was still not able to boot RT-11 from the CD. One key aspect to realize is that RT-11 knows only about blocks that are 512 bytes. Since a CD has a 2048 byte sector, that problem must be overcome, but is not the only problem. Fortunately, a CD is a READ ONLY media, so problems associated with writes don't ever arise. One problem that RT-11 does not have is that the drive media is not required to be writable, although there will sometimes be SWAP errors after a program exits - which can be avoided by using the command SET EXIT NOSWAP All I am saying is that a CDROM drive is not a supported drive under RT-11. And while I am sure that it is possible to write a file which is a bootable image to a CD, the correct combination of hardware is not well specified in my mind. If you are actually able to boot RT-11 from a CD, it would be appreciated if you would tell us the specific hardware components which you used along with the software version of RT-11. One aspect to note for V5.03 of RT-11 is that you may be able to read a non-zero partition, however, the standard DEC distributed MSCP device driver is UNABLE to boot from a non-zero partition. So if SET DU1 UNIT=0,PART=1 COPY/BOOT DU1:RT11XM.SYS DU1: are used with V5.03 of RT-11, it is impossible to boot from DU1: using the DEC version of the MSCP device driver. This is not a problem with V5.06 of RT-11, so obviously it is a software bug. > I did finally manage to get my RX02's copied to a VMS machine. The guy > that was helping me (who had the vax/vms machine) was out of town for > awhile. Anyway, we copied an image of a bootable floppy to the VMS > machine, and back to a new floppy, which booted fine with no need to > copy/boot it (since the imagine was already that way). We also used VMS > exchange to may .dsk files. I need to read up a little more on exchange, > but I was thinking if I can work with the .dsk imagines of the ftpable > RT-11 5.03, I should be copy in my program and then copy that to a SCSI > disk, make sure its bootable, and then make an image of it. The .dsk > files seem to be little file on file systems as opposed to just making an > image. Using Exchange under VMS had certain annoying limitations the last time I used it. While it was possible to MOUNT the file or the drive as "/FOREIGN", there was no variable to specify the partition. Thus the default was ONLY partition zero. It was possible to circumvent this problem with a hard drive that is also compatible with PDP-11 hardware (the only one I know of is a SCSI hard drive or a removable media such as Magneto Optical), but it was not simple. One problem you may have with the downloaded DEC distribution of V5.03 of RT-11 is that the boot block zero assumes an RL02 disk drive. If you copy it to an MSCP media, then you must COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: if you are going to do a hardware boot. However, if you can first boot from the floppy under V5.03 of RT-11 (which also poses a problem - but not too difficult), then you can do a soft boot via the command: BOOT DU0:RT11XM after which you can then set up the boot blocks via COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: Some information helpful to understand the boot process under RT-11. (a) In a hardware boot, the primary program in the EPROM is used to read BLOCK ZERO on the specified disk drive media. (b) The secondary boot program in BLOCK ZERO is usually read into memory locations starting at address zero and normally the first word MUST be the NOP instruction. (c) In RT-11, the secondary boot program then reads the tertiary boot program in blocks 2,3,4,5 of the disk drive media and those 4 blocks are sufficient to read the specified monitor and device driver files. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Apr 4 08:46:13 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: OT: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Message-ID: One more reason to stick to classic hardware/software: http://www.msnbc.com/news/732958.asp?0dm=C18MT&cp1=1#BODY "A California company has quietly attached its software to millions of downloads of the popular Kazaa file-trading program and plans to remotely turn on people's PCs, welding them into a new network of its own." From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 4 08:58:09 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <000401c1db1f$2f44ed40$3a7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3CAC8621.12593.2D26D1BD@localhost> > >All of my boxes that run CP/M run 2.2 built from the source > >found at the "unofficial CP/M web site": > Some of those I copied to Tim! I was useing them back when > to build mine, from the emergence of V2.2 on. > >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > Da place! Isn't http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html more like the official unofficial web site ? AFAIR Retroarchive is only snapshoot of the old site, while the pages at gaby.de are still maintained (and extended). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 09:06:41 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Apple II 13-sector disks In-Reply-To: <10202270122.ZM20050@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20020404150641.73130.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 26, 8:50, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > > > > > I have received a box of old Apple II disks including a bunch of > > > 13-sector disks... Does anyone here still have the 13-sector boot > > > PROMs for the Disk II controller card? > > > > These are small 256-byte PROMs; can anyone here burn them if I cannot > > > find originals? I can. We used 6309s in our original COMBOARD-I. I don't know if I can download a file into my ancient programmer, but I know it will copy 256 byte bi-polar PROMs (I made many, many sets on it as a teenage stock boy/part monkey). Worst case, we type the bytes in on the hex keypad. There's a 74-series drop-in replacement for the 6309, 74S471? I know in the late 1980s, we were having problems getting PROMs to make boards. Don't know where to get blanks from these days. Of course, one could manufacture a 27xx->6309 pin swabber and use a 2716 or other readily available EPROM. There might be a vertical clearance problem with that, but electrically, it should work just fine. > > I've been searching for years and I don't think I've ever even seen a > > 13-sector disk controller. Just about everybody updated their old > > 13-sector boot controller when the 16-sector version came out. That's my memory. I haven't used a 13-sector disk in a very long time. > As Sellam implies, it's only the boot PROM (P5) you need to change, not > the state machine PROM (P6). I have a card somewhere with BOTH sets, > switch selectable, but I haven't seen it for a while. If anyone can cough up an old PROM, that's the first step. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 09:14:22 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Amish Virus References: <3.0.6.32.20020404070643.0081f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CAC6DCE.7010309@internet1.net> Haha, thats great!! This is one "virus" that I do plan on spreading :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Joe wrote: > > AMISH VIRUS: > > Thou have just received the Amish Virus. > Since we do not have electricity nor computers, > thou art on the honor system. Please delete all > of thine files. > > Thank thee. > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 09:29:28 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <002001c1dbed$8ca76fc0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Hans Franke >> >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > >> Da place! > >Isn't I saw it and forgot. > >http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > >more like the official unofficial web site ? >AFAIR Retroarchive is only snapshoot of the old site, >while the pages at gaby.de are still maintained (and >extended). Is a good thing. The extensions are very fine. Allison From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 09:27:28 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CAC70E0.4070503@internet1.net> What is ANC? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Merle K. Peirce wrote: > BA is British Association. I think 2BA and 4BA are the most common sizes > we might see. UNC is Unified Coarse which is almost, but not quite, the > same as ANC. BA is not Whitworth. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Apr 4 09:40:36 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677F2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > > > At 07:19 PM 4/3/02 +0000, you wrote: > > >Yes, I did know there's second bi-pin bulb held in place of red > > >holder in Maglite's end cap hidden under that spring. > > >Cheers, > > >Wizard > > > > Hmmm; I'm another magliter, especially the solitaire (1AAA) model. > > They're great for looking in dark, recessed spots in old computers :-). > > I got my Solitaire free by answering a survey from ADP back when I > was self-employed. I explained I didn't have a staff, but the caller said > that didn't mind. > > I find the bulbs only lose lifespan when you drop the flashlight a > time or two.. they simply aren't shock-resistant. > > -dq > > - Well, I keep a 2 AA size Maglite in each of my two toolboxes, and a 3 D cel Mag under the front seat of my truck. It does pretty good for some hammer type work... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Apr 4 09:48:03 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: [was: RE: The Future End of Classic Computing] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677F3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Chris > .... > F-ing scary! > > Remember, this is the country that awarded 3 million dollars to a lady > because she put her hot coffee in her lap, and then spilled it... and was > able to sue McDonalds because the coffee was too hot and it burned her > (yes, there is more to that story, but the fact that she was even able to > get to trial is just f-ed up... where is the personal responsibility in > this country?!?) > > -chris > Amen brother! C'mon who, in their right mind, would put a _paper_ cup full of hot coffee between their legs while in a car! That chick has to some kind of moron! Are people afraid of taking responsibility for their actions? Geez, they only claim it when it's for their benefit, or when the result is good. Otherwise, it's the other guy's fault... Sorry about that. Had to get it off my chest... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 4 01:44:52 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > Wow, that would have made me very upset. I'm all for security, but not > > them confiscating my property, just becasue it resembles a gun barrel. > > It's a working flashlight, made by the thousands, nothing special, not > > some James Bond, Man With a Golden Gun weapon. > > Well, I guess "confiscated" was the wrong term. My checked baggage > was checked, my ride dropped me and left, and my only option was to > leave it there or leave with it. So if Jim hadn't been on shift, I'd > have probably lost my light. > It _felt_ like confiscation, and I _was_ upset. Next time, do what my dad did when he was on his way back to the US from a trip abroad and the security folks gave him all sorts of hassle over his Leatherman tool. After arguing with them for about half an hour (they wanted to confiscate and destroy it, and he was having none of that), he finally suggested they give it to the pilot to hold during the flight, to which they obliged. When he landed, the pilot handed it back to him and all was well ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 4 01:48:15 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, William R. Buckley wrote: > I once met John Draper at a Hackers Conference. He did not seem > that bad a person to know. What is it about him that others on > this list find undesireable? Perhaps it's his penchant for asking young hacker boys to come home with him and "share massages" so that he would feel comfortable discussing his past with them. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 4 01:54:30 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program In-Reply-To: <3CAC6C5D.15180.2CC22DB3@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > Here's an early reference, from the comments of the source code > > to FIG-FORTH 1.1 dated 17-September-1979, one year after I met > > him on exit from Harrisville: > > > ; APPLE FORTH BY CapN' SOFTWARE $40.00 > > ; EASYWRITER (word processor for APPLE > > ; by CapN' SOFTWARE) $100.00 > > > So it appears it was an Apple II package before it was an IBM package. > > Of course it was - I always thought we are talking > about the Apple Version. The IBM port was later on > developed. As a fun fact he told me that they used > an 8086 S100 system from Seattle Computer Products > for development, since they didn't get any hardware > info from IBM, except that the CPU is an Intel 8086. The funniest thing is opening up an IBM manual and seeing the name of John Draper inside. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 4 09:56:54 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: OT Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020404095038.02c91708@pc> At 07:44 AM 4/4/2002 +0000, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Next time, do what my dad did when he was on his way back to the US from a >trip abroad and the security folks gave him all sorts of hassle over his >Leatherman tool. After arguing with them for about half an hour (they >wanted to confiscate and destroy it, and he was having none of that), he >finally suggested they give it to the pilot to hold during the flight, to >which they obliged. When he landed, the pilot handed it back to him and >all was well ;) I think what they should do is hand out multi-tools to everyone on the flight. If there are more passengers than hijackers, I think they can overpower them. I finished high school in 1981 in Wisconsin. I distinctly remember being able to bring a rifle and ammunition to school in order to go hunting when the day ended. - John From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 4 10:02:15 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" References: Message-ID: <3CAC7907.1000003@dragonsweb.org> William R. Buckley wrote: > > > I once met John Draper at a Hackers Conference. He did not seem > that bad a person to know. What is it about him that others on > this list find undesireable? > > William R. Buckley > Why do people not like, say, Jim Goad, when they revere a lovable old "misanthrope" like H.L. Mencken or Mr. Clemens? I don't know John, but I think Doug covered this one pretty well already. He's an ex-con. In our culture, even just being accused of a crime is a big sign plastered to your back, saying, justly or not, "I am a loser." If you maintain your innocence, or unrepentence, or even just your worth as a human being, you can also very easily wave that sign in people's faces, if you aren't very careful. Not saying that it isn't worthwhile. Just that there's a stigma there, one which most people fear is contagious, and may well be in some cases. Which is not an accident, nor benign, but we are off-topic enough here, so I won't go into that. As an aside, I would recommend people add "Papillon" to their reading lists along with "1984", "Fahrenheit 451", and the tech manuals. Especially pay attention to the part about the leper colony. jbdigriz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 4 10:02:39 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Amish Virus References: <3.0.6.32.20020404070643.0081f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CAC791F.6F261F1F@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe wrote: > > > AMISH VIRUS: > > Thou have just received the Amish Virus. > Since we do not have electricity nor computers, > thou art on the honor system. Please delete all > of thine files. > > Thank thee. Thou have no Stamp, returning to thy sender. From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 10:07:16 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: Enhanced DRI PL/I-86 Compiler Available Message-ID: <000701c1dbf2$cb070cd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > Some of those I copied to Tim! I was useing them back when > > to build mine, from the emergence of V2.2 on. > > > >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > > > Da place! > > Isn't > > http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > > more like the official unofficial web site ? A couple of years ago, I put some finishing touches on a project I began back in 1988, when I got a copy of the DRI PL/I-86 compiler. Back then, it wasn't the freeware that it is today. But of course, today, you can download it from either of the two sites above. My goal was to modify it so that it one could use the Microsoft linker and librarian instead of the DRI linker and librarian; with this change it would be possible to mix object modules from other Microsoft-compatible compilers. Also, I wanted to revise and extend the runtime system. I completed most everything except providing access to DOS environment variables. But the DATE() and TIME() BIFs work as they should, and you can pass the command line arguments by defining them as arguments to main() much as in C. DRI and Microsoft both used the Intel OMF format for the object files, so it wasn't hard. But like many projects, it just got stalled for along time. I recently packaged it up and forwarded it to Peter Flass, noted PL/I advocate who's omnipresent on comp.lang.pli. He's going to include it in some archive, but didn't mention which. You may or may not end up seeing at the two above sites. But if anyone out there is interested in it, you can also obtain it directly from me. Regards, -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 4 10:09:17 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:02 2005 Subject: ibm thinkpad parts References: <011001c1dbb2$ed287dc0$1c4aa518@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CAC7AAD.D01A29B4@rain.org> A spamcop report has been filed. ********** Chris Lillie wrote: > > IN STOCK DEALS!! > > 02K6900 IBM TP 1400 ac adapter 350 > 20.00 new > 10L1259 IBM TP 770Z system board 50 > 150.00 new > 12J1944 IBM TP 365x keyboard 403 > 10.00 new > 12J2005 IBM TP 770 keyboard assembly/unit 500 > 15.00 new > 30L2533 IBM TP 770x system board 59 > 150.00 new > 30L2736 IBM TP 570 system board 140 > 145.00 new > 08K3315 IBM TP A20m system board Celeron 200 > 280.00 ref > 13P3156 IBM TP A20m sys board PIII 750 150 > 355.00 new > 10L1353 IBM TP SYS BD TP600X 2645 3 > 350.00 NEW > 02k6639 IBM TP 570 BATTERY LITH/ION 30 > 35.00 NEW > PA2450U Toshiba AC ADAPTER TECRA 530 550 8000 P7000 100 > 29.00NEW > 29H9395 KEYBOARD IBM TP 760C/CD /ED 760EL/ L/LD 300 > 10.00NEW > 29H9226 11.1 TFT LCD IBM TP 760C/CD /ED 760EL/ L/LD 100 > 26.00NEW > 45H5735 12.1 TFT LCD IBM TP 760C/CD /ED 760EL/ L/LD 100 > 28.00NEW > 19K5686 IBM IEEE 1394 PCMCIA CARD BUS 200 > 28.00NEW > DDYS-T36950 IBM 36.7 GB 10K RPM P/N 07N3235 100 > 225.00NEW > > SOLID TECHNOLOGY > 1599 Superior Ave. A2 > Costa Mesa, CA 92627 > 949-646-2181 / FAX 949-646-2185 > call for your ibm think pad system boards 949-646-2181 > all ibm think pad parts in stock From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 4 10:00:32 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020404095810.02346e68@pc> At 07:48 AM 4/4/2002 +0000, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Perhaps it's his penchant for asking young hacker boys to come home with >him and "share massages" so that he would feel comfortable discussing his >past with them. For me as young cute hacker magazine writer, it was the invitation / demand that a good time to do the interview would be while "working out" with him in the hotel gym. No other time would work. I declined... - John From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 4 10:18:13 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677F2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <005301c1dbf4$52552720$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> While we're on flashlights I really should rave again for white LED ones. My favorite can cast a 150 degree solid pyramid of pure white light, absent of any filament artifacts, for 10 hours off one 9v battery. If you turn it down 1 notch, you get 100 hours life. These things are incredible. John A. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 4 10:29:36 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <3CAC8621.12593.2D26D1BD@localhost> Message-ID: > > >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > > > Da place! > > Isn't > > http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > > more like the official unofficial web site ? Sorry. I had no idea. I've had a "favorite" set to retroarchive for years. I'll have to change it. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 4 10:44:10 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: OT: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to rob you. References: Message-ID: <3CAC82DA.4090506@dragonsweb.org> Feldman, Robert wrote: > One more reason to stick to classic hardware/software: > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/732958.asp?0dm=C18MT&cp1=1#BODY > > "A California company has quietly attached its software to millions of > downloads of the popular Kazaa file-trading program and plans to remotely > turn on people's PCs, welding them into a new network of its own." > > > If you look at the license agreement you'll see you're agreeing to this, and giving them use rights to your computer's resources. In principle, it's no different from things like Mnet, but it's obvious they're playing on people's ignorance and over-riding desire to exchange files. Odds are you're going to get the short end of the stick. But it's "for business", so therefore it's good. Count me out, though. I run Seti clients, and I'd be happy to consider running distributed processes for pay. I even joined one or two of those projects that never got off the ground and disappeared after the dot.bomb. I would much rather do that and then pay for CD and movie downloads and such out of the proceeds. Note that that last does *not* require a govt. bureaucracy and govt. sanctioned and designed hardware or software, or even centralized distribution and marketing. Which is what really terrifies Hollywood, record labels, broadcasters, the advertising industry, etc. *Not* "piracy". jbdigriz From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 4 10:45:39 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: > Well, I guess "confiscated" was the wrong term. My checked baggage > was checked, my ride dropped me and left, and my only option was to > leave it there or leave with it. So if Jim hadn't been on shift, I'd > have probably lost my light. > It _felt_ like confiscation, and I _was_ upset. The airport in New Orleans confiscated (yes, took away and kept, never to return) a mini stapler my father had in his laptop bag. This is one of those staplers that is about an inch long, holds 20 staples of that super mini, can't staple thru more than two sheets of paper, size. This was back in November, so everyone was a bit more paranoid. But he showed them it was just a stapler... and they still took it away as a "weapon". I would LOVE to see that happen.... take me to Cuba or I'll fail to break your skin with my mini shards of metal, in my lethal squeeze powered dispenser! Don't make me empty this thing onto my shoe... I'll do it... I'm just crazy enough! And if that doesn't scare you... I'll beat you with this airline pillow! Hell, you could do more damage by sitting in the exit row, and pulling the shiny red handle on the wall. -chris From geoff at pkworks.com Thu Apr 4 11:14:25 2002 From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Harris Model 8 CPU Message-ID: <00ef01c1dbfc$2d9278e0$1677f4d0@dialup> I got a phone call early this morning from one Harry Landis, a surplus dealer in Foxboro, MA, who knows I like old computers. He has eight boards from a Harris Model 8 CPU, said to be used in their 60, 600 and 700 systems, including the two board CPU. He wanted to know if I wanted them. I said no, but that I'd check around - hence this e-mail. I've not seen the boards and do not know their condition, nor do I know what Harry wants for them (and, no, I'm not financially involved in this in any way), but if anyone's interested give Harry a call at 508-285-7568. From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 4 11:06:35 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" Message-ID: >While we're on flashlights I really should rave again >for white LED ones. My favorite can cast a 150 >degree solid pyramid of pure white light, absent of >any filament artifacts, for 10 hours off one 9v battery. >If you turn it down 1 notch, you get 100 hours life. >These things are incredible. I have one of those squeeze model LED ones clipped to my keys. Works nicely for temp lighting (the squeeze and hold activation makes it a bit hard to use for long term lighting). It was marketed as a "white LED", but it definitely casts a blue tint in my opinion. Not enough to off set colors to an indistinguishable point, but enough to tell that it looks blue. I use the thing all the time when glancing for wires in a dropped ceiling, or when looking into the dark corners in or behind a computer case (just to bring it on topic). Overall, not bad for a $3 item (actually, I got it free as a gift, but have seen it sold for $3) -chris From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 4 11:09:09 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020404095810.02346e68@pc> Message-ID: <3CAC88B5.10906@dragonsweb.org> John Foust wrote: > At 07:48 AM 4/4/2002 +0000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >>Perhaps it's his penchant for asking young hacker boys to come home with >>him and "share massages" so that he would feel comfortable discussing his >>past with them. > > > For me as young cute hacker magazine writer, it was the > invitation / demand that a good time to do the interview > would be while "working out" with him in the hotel gym. > No other time would work. I declined... > > - John > > When I was much younger, there was a certain notorious local theater director who had a penchant for grabbing your ass when you weren't looking, and asking you to come over to his place to "read Shakespeare". How he managed not to get a busted nose I'm not quite sure, but I managed to dodge his attentions, without losing any interest in literature, either. What I said in my other message still goes, in any case. jbdigriz From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 4 12:37:15 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > > > > > Da place! > > > > Isn't > > > > http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > > > > more like the official unofficial web site ? > > Sorry. I had no idea. I've had a "favorite" set to retroarchive > for years. I'll have to change it. > I made a quick mirror of it a couple of years ago when it looked like it might vanish. Since Gaby is doing such a good job, I necer saw fit to keep the mirror at retroarchive.org updated. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 4 11:21:08 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAC70E0.4070503@internet1.net> Message-ID: American National Coarse. Whitworth is always coarse as I recall. Its fine companion would, I think, be BSF - British Standard Fine. Tony can probably confirm this. On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > What is ANC? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > BA is British Association. I think 2BA and 4BA are the most common sizes > > we might see. UNC is Unified Coarse which is almost, but not quite, the > > same as ANC. BA is not Whitworth. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 11:25:13 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: "Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8))" Message-ID: <000701c1dbfd$aeba5360$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I'm just crazy enough! And if that doesn't scare you... I'll > beat you with this airline pillow! "Nooooooooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapons are fear, torture, and a ruthless and fanatical devotion to the Pope... And now.... bring out, the cushy airline pillow!" ROFL! -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 3 14:32:10 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Apr 2002 13:14:29 MDT." <3CAB5495.4010209@texoma.net> Message-ID: <200204032032.VAA26046@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "James L. Rice" said; > Just out of curiosity, what was available in 1954? I probably coulfdn't > afford the power and a/c for all of the vacuum tubes. The Ferranti Mercury for one. Ferranti were experimenting with germanium transistors in computer circuits around that time - or possible a year or two later. Research that led to the Atlas, the fastest computer of its era... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 3 14:17:21 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:04:38 PDT." <3CAB5246.2E6CCFA5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200204032017.VAA25767@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ben Franchuk said: > Stan Barr wrote: > All of a sudden I feel _very_ old ;-( There were no working electronic > > computers when I was born...even Collosus was still a few months from > > completion.... > > Well you could go after the mechanical ones :) Finding one here in the UK would be difficult! We have a very nice string (wire, actually..) and pulley tidal computer here in Liverpool. It was computing tide table for countries all round the world until replaced by an IBM 1130. I remember dismantling a bomb-sight computer for parts in about 1958/9... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 00:38:03 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <000a01c1dba3$46d4fc00$3a7b7b7b@ajp> >I made a quick mirror of it a couple of years ago when it looked like it >might vanish. Since Gaby is doing such a good job, I necer saw fit to >keep the mirror at retroarchive.org updated. Tim was kind enough at that time to send me his master for that site on Cdrom... faster than DSL. ;) Gaby is doing a great job. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 12:21:39 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" In-Reply-To: <005301c1dbf4$52552720$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > While we're on flashlights I really should rave again > for white LED ones. My favorite can cast a 150 > degree solid pyramid of pure white light, absent of > any filament artifacts, for 10 hours off one 9v battery. > If you turn it down 1 notch, you get 100 hours life. > These things are incredible. They _are_ incredible. And since we're on the "Stupid Laws and Legislators" kick this week, here's another one. I can't verify it, though. One of Austin's City Councilmen wanted to draft an ordinance against carrying the LED flashlights, as they could be used as a "stunner" in robberies, rapes, etc. The word I got, from a stenographer, was that he was temporarily blinded by one. The one he had in his own hand, that is. He was looking at it in the store, pointed it at his face, and, yes, you guessed it, pushed the button. What a maroon. These are the dolts who get to decide what I can and cannot do. Doc From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 4 04:22:30 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" In-Reply-To: <3CAC7907.1000003@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > I don't know John, but I think Doug covered this one pretty well > already. He's an ex-con. In our culture, even just being accused of a > crime is a big sign plastered to your back, saying, justly or not, "I am > a loser." If you maintain your innocence, or unrepentence, or even just > your worth as a human being, you can also very easily wave that sign in > people's faces, if you aren't very careful. Not saying that it isn't > worthwhile. Just that there's a stigma there, one which most people fear > is contagious, and may well be in some cases. Which is not an accident, > nor benign, but we are off-topic enough here, so I won't go into that. One's impression of John Draper has nothing at all to do with this. It's more of his creepy propensity to hit on anything with two legs (generally) within eyesight. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 12:27:26 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: OT: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Feldman, Robert wrote: > One more reason to stick to classic hardware/software: > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/732958.asp?0dm=C18MT&cp1=1#BODY > > "A California company has quietly attached its software to millions of > downloads of the popular Kazaa file-trading program and plans to remotely > turn on people's PCs, welding them into a new network of its own." Didn't Juno start installing a distributed processing client with their free dial-up a long time ago? Doc From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 4 12:34:57 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 4, 02 12:21:39 pm Message-ID: <200204041834.NAA26785@wordstock.com> And thusly Doc spake: > > > They _are_ incredible. And since we're on the "Stupid Laws and > Legislators" kick this week, here's another one. I can't verify it, > though. > One of Austin's City Councilmen wanted to draft an ordinance against > carrying the LED flashlights, as they could be used as a "stunner" in > robberies, rapes, etc. The word I got, from a stenographer, was that he > was temporarily blinded by one. The one he had in his own hand, that > is. He was looking at it in the store, pointed it at his face, and, > yes, you guessed it, pushed the button. > What a maroon. These are the dolts who get to decide what I can and > cannot do. > Now see.. this is what is supposed to *remove* these people from the gene pool!!!!!!!! At least the Darwin awards do.... :> Cheers, Bryan From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 12:35:21 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > American National Coarse. Whitworth is always coarse as I recall. Its > fine companion would, I think, be BSF - British Standard Fine. Tony can > probably confirm this. Almost on-topic, except it had zero computing technology -- I rode a '69 Triumph T100C (single-carb 500cc twin) for several years that had a combination of metric, SAE, and Whitworth fasteners. IIRC, all the body parts were metric, the external engine components - covers, jets, etc - were SAE, and the engine internals were Whitworth. I may have that swapped around. I dunno if Whitworth was always _coarse_, but it was always _irritating_! Doc From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 4 12:40:34 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204032032.VAA26046@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <3CAC9E22.9060105@dragonsweb.org> Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > "James L. Rice" said; > > >>Just out of curiosity, what was available in 1954? I probably coulfdn't >>afford the power and a/c for all of the vacuum tubes. > > > The Ferranti Mercury for one. > > Ferranti were experimenting with germanium transistors in computer > circuits around that time - or possible a year or two later. > Research that led to the Atlas, the fastest computer of its era... One year later, 1955, you have the TRIDAC, an analog aeronatical simulator that is claimed to be the first computer to use transistors. Did Ferranti have anything to do with that project? There's only sketchy information on the web about it that I could find with google. jbdigriz From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 12:47:40 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" Message-ID: <000f01c1dc09$33412bd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > While we're on flashlights I really should rave again > > for white LED ones. My favorite can cast a 150 > > degree solid pyramid of pure white light, absent of > > any filament artifacts, for 10 hours off one 9v battery. > > If you turn it down 1 notch, you get 100 hours life. > > These things are incredible. > > They _are_ incredible. And since we're on the "Stupid Laws and > Legislators" kick this week, here's another one. I can't verify it, > though. One of Austin's City Councilmen wanted to draft an > ordinance against carrying the LED flashlights, as they could > be used as a "stunner" in robberies, rapes, etc. The word I got, > from a stenographer, was that he was temporarily blinded by one. > The one he had in his own hand, that is. He was looking at it in > the store, pointed it at his face, and, yes, you guessed it, > pushed the button. What a maroon. These are the dolts who get > to decide what I can and cannot do. An officeholder elected by your neighbors... The tyranny of kings is nothing compared to the tyranny of the majority... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 12:53:27 2002 From: bill_mcdermith at yahoo.com (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204032032.VAA26046@citadel.metropolis.local> <3CAC9E22.9060105@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <00cf01c1dc0a$02f4b5e0$9101a8c0@mn> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James B. DiGriz" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:40 AM Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 > Stan Barr wrote: > > Hi, > > > > "James L. Rice" said; > > > > > >>Just out of curiosity, what was available in 1954? I probably coulfdn't > >>afford the power and a/c for all of the vacuum tubes. > > > > > > The Ferranti Mercury for one. > > ...snip...snip...snip... Why I was speculating about the IBM 650... According to http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/timeline.html: Year System Manufacturer Total Average Installations Cost per in the US System $ 1954 MAGNEFILE B Electronics Corp. of America 1 20,000 JOHNNIAC The Rand Corporation 1 DYSEAC US Dept of Commerce 1 ALWAC II Alwac Computer Division, Hawthorne 2 50,000 CIRCLE Hogan Laboratories Inc. 2 80,000 MODAC 5014 Airborne Instruments Laboratory 1 85,000 MODAC 404 Airborne Instruments Laboratory 1 100,000 BENDIX D12 Bendix n.a. 55,000 BURROUGHS 204, Burroughs 112 200,000 & 205 IBM 650 RAMAC IBM 1500 182,000 LGP 30 General Precision 462 49,500 (Librascope Division) 1 WISC Univ. of Wisconsin 1 From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 4 13:00:26 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" References: Message-ID: <3CACA2CA.2050709@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >>I don't know John, but I think Doug covered this one pretty well >>already. He's an ex-con. In our culture, even just being accused of a >>crime is a big sign plastered to your back, saying, justly or not, "I am >>a loser." If you maintain your innocence, or unrepentence, or even just >>your worth as a human being, you can also very easily wave that sign in >>people's faces, if you aren't very careful. Not saying that it isn't >>worthwhile. Just that there's a stigma there, one which most people fear >>is contagious, and may well be in some cases. Which is not an accident, >>nor benign, but we are off-topic enough here, so I won't go into that. > > > One's impression of John Draper has nothing at all to do with this. It's > more of his creepy propensity to hit on anything with two legs (generally) > within eyesight. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > Didn't know, Sellam. I have followed the "Cap'n Crunch" legend over the years, but nothing I'd read indicated anything like that. If it's going to be a topic of discussion, accurate information is better than what could be confused with malicious gossip or worse, so I thank you for providing the facts, and I think we are all quite adequately informed at this point. jbdigriz From hhacker at ev1.net Thu Apr 4 13:23:34 2002 From: hhacker at ev1.net (William R. Buckley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >One's impression of John Draper has nothing at all to do with this. It's >more of his creepy propensity to hit on anything with two legs (generally) >within eyesight. > >Sellam Ismail Interestingly enough, I saw none of this behavior at the Hackers Conference. Still, I have heard rumors of John's associations with WOZ, that WOZ used to ride Johns back (like a child riding horsey). Ah well, genius often is accompanied by some kind of bizarre behaviour. Mine is collecting old mainframes. William R. Buckley, Director Emeritus International Core Wars Society From aek at spies.com Thu Apr 4 13:18:59 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: DSD-440 manual needed Message-ID: <200204041918.LAA12564@spies.com> > I really need a copy of the manual for a Data Systems Design DSD-440 I scanned it yesterday. It should be up at www.spies.com/aek/pdf/dsd later today. I'm interested in finding other DSD product manuals to add to the archive, also. I should have the Multibus disc/tape manual somewhere. From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 4 13:40:51 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > >To go back to the hammer for a moment, if I go out and buy a hammer and > >bash somebody's head in with it, then I am guilty of murder. The company > >that made the hammer, and the shop that sold it to me, are not. And > >that's how it should be. > > Scary thing is... here in the US, it doesn't seem to work that logically. > People have been sueing gun manufacturers off and on because they made > the gun that was used to kill someone. > > I don't know if anyone has WON a suit, but I do know the suits have been > filed (and win or loose, you are costing the gun maker needless legal > troubles). > > Sueing people has become so much the norm here... that the government has > had to step in and offer insurance backing for the companies cleaning up > the world trade center... because the companies know ALREADY that there > will be lawsuits when they are done, and without insurance, they know > they will be sued into bankruptcy. AND, since it is such a known fact > that they will be sued... no insurance company was willing to insure > them, which meant they weren't willing to do the work... so the > government had to step in and offer backing. > > F-ing scary! > > Remember, this is the country that awarded 3 million dollars to a lady > because she put her hot coffee in her lap, and then spilled it... and was > able to sue McDonalds because the coffee was too hot and it burned her > (yes, there is more to that story, but the fact that she was even able to > get to trial is just f-ed up... where is the personal responsibility in > this country?!?) > > -chris > > The trial lawyers, in cahoots with their cohorts in the Congress, have pretty well eliminated it with the `deep pocket' approach in lawsuits, and class action suits that are `opt out' rather than `opt in' as they ought to be. It is all part of a very successful program - to make lawyers rich(er) - at the expense of everyone else. - don From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 4 13:36:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Amish Virus References: <3.0.6.32.20020404070643.0081f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3CAC791F.6F261F1F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004901c1dc10$0e57b120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You guys have too much free time ... and the grammar and syntax in this thing are all screwed up. "Thou" requires "hast" rather than "have." Thine = yours. Thy = your. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Amish Virus > Joe wrote: > > > > > > AMISH VIRUS: > > > > Thou have just received the Amish Virus. > > Since we do not have electricity nor computers, > > thou art on the honor system. Please delete all > > of thine files. > > > > Thank thee. > > Thou have no Stamp, returning to thy sender. > > From tom at sba.miami.edu Thu Apr 4 14:04:22 2002 From: tom at sba.miami.edu (Tom Leffingwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: <3CAC6725.849C9ABC@compsys.to> Message-ID: I think what I'll do at this point is try to make an image with exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220. I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap. -Tom On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Since I have used a CD burner for only a month, I was limited to > the experience of using only the RT-11 Freeware CD from Tim > Shoppa. > > Also, since I had only an IDE CDROM drive on a PC, my experience > using the CD was only under E11 under Windows 95 and Windows 98. > > I did try and connect a SCSI CDROM drive to a Qbus CQD 220/TM > on a real PDP-11, but was not able to get it to work. > > More recently, I think I have been able to copy a file which had been > tested to see if it could be used to successfully boot RT-11 (under E11 > under Windows 98). I copied that file to a CD and was able to "View" > all of the blocks on the CD in their correct locations on the CD using > Nero Burning, but I was still not able to boot RT-11 from the CD. > > One key aspect to realize is that RT-11 knows only about blocks > that are 512 bytes. Since a CD has a 2048 byte sector, that problem > must be overcome, but is not the only problem. Fortunately, a CD > is a READ ONLY media, so problems associated with writes > don't ever arise. One problem that RT-11 does not have is that > the drive media is not required to be writable, although there will > sometimes be SWAP errors after a program exits - which can be > avoided by using the command > SET EXIT NOSWAP > > All I am saying is that a CDROM drive is not a supported drive under > RT-11. And while I am sure that it is possible to write a file which is a > bootable image to a CD, the correct combination of hardware is not > well specified in my mind. If you are actually able to boot RT-11 from > a CD, it would be appreciated if you would tell us the specific hardware > components which you used along with the software version of RT-11. > > One aspect to note for V5.03 of RT-11 is that you may be able to read > a non-zero partition, however, the standard DEC distributed MSCP > device driver is UNABLE to boot from a non-zero partition. So if > SET DU1 UNIT=0,PART=1 > COPY/BOOT DU1:RT11XM.SYS DU1: > are used with V5.03 of RT-11, it is impossible to boot from DU1: > using the DEC version of the MSCP device driver. This is not a > problem with V5.06 of RT-11, so obviously it is a software bug. > > > I did finally manage to get my RX02's copied to a VMS machine. The guy > > that was helping me (who had the vax/vms machine) was out of town for > > awhile. Anyway, we copied an image of a bootable floppy to the VMS > > machine, and back to a new floppy, which booted fine with no need to > > copy/boot it (since the imagine was already that way). We also used VMS > > exchange to may .dsk files. I need to read up a little more on exchange, > > but I was thinking if I can work with the .dsk imagines of the ftpable > > RT-11 5.03, I should be copy in my program and then copy that to a SCSI > > disk, make sure its bootable, and then make an image of it. The .dsk > > files seem to be little file on file systems as opposed to just making an > > image. > > Using Exchange under VMS had certain annoying limitations the last time I > used it. While it was possible to MOUNT the file or the drive as "/FOREIGN", > there was no variable to specify the partition. Thus the default was ONLY > partition zero. It was possible to circumvent this problem with a hard drive > that is also compatible with PDP-11 hardware (the only one I know of > is a SCSI hard drive or a removable media such as Magneto Optical), > but it was not simple. > > One problem you may have with the downloaded DEC distribution > of V5.03 of RT-11 is that the boot block zero assumes an RL02 > disk drive. If you copy it to an MSCP media, then you must > COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: > if you are going to do a hardware boot. However, if you can > first boot from the floppy under V5.03 of RT-11 (which also > poses a problem - but not too difficult), then you can do a > soft boot via the command: > BOOT DU0:RT11XM > after which you can then set up the boot blocks via > COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: > > Some information helpful to understand the boot process under RT-11. > (a) In a hardware boot, the primary program in the EPROM is used > to read BLOCK ZERO on the specified disk drive media. > (b) The secondary boot program in BLOCK ZERO is usually > read into memory locations starting at address zero and normally > the first word MUST be the NOP instruction. > (c) In RT-11, the secondary boot program then reads the tertiary > boot program in blocks 2,3,4,5 of the disk drive media and those > 4 blocks are sufficient to read the specified monitor and device > driver files. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Apr 4 13:53:58 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? References: <20020403113354.I56922-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <009401c1dc16$36fb13a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Core memory has another complication ........ Reading a core memoryline from the matrix means you also have to write the line back because reading from core memory is a data destructive operation. This means that any read cycle is in fact a read+write memory cycle. This has also concequences for the total speed of subsequent read operations (like a program running from core). The read access may be reasonably fast but the next read cycle can only start after the internal write-cycle has completed................ A kind of page interleave may solve this problem but: Obviously you'll have to cook up all the extra logic to execute all this in hardware .............. Regards, Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Richman To: Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:41 PM Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? > Right off, let me say that I know next to nothing about the realities of > using core memory. I only know that it looks like pretty cool stuff to > play with. Would I be completely off my tree to try to build a core > memory interface from scratch, assuming I had a pre-strung core frame with > all the cores and wires intact? When I say "interface", I mean basically > something that will let me talk to the core from a PC or from my > recently-completed Mark-8 using TTL or CMOS levels. If I have a 64x64 > frame, would I just need something on the order of 256 driver transistors > (one to drive each of the X and Y wires in either direction) plus some > kind of op-amp or comparator circuit to monitor the sense wire (is there > just one of these per frame?) and determine whether or not a bit has > flipped during a read pulse? Or are there all sorts of ghosts and goblins > lurking in core memory that I don't want to confront? > > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Apr 4 14:30:23 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Amish Virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Richard Erlacher > > You guys have too much free time ... and the grammar and syntax in this > thing > are all screwed up. "Thou" requires "hast" rather than "have." Thine = > yours. Thy = your. > > Dick > > > Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > > AMISH VIRUS: > > > > > > Thou have just received the Amish Virus. > > > Since we do not have electricity nor computers, > > > thou art on the honor system. Please delete all > > > of thine files. > > > > > > Thank thee. > So, it should read... "... Thou hast just received the Amish Virus. Since we do not have electricity nor computers, thou art on the honor system. Please delete all of thy files. Thank thee. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From ccraft at springsips.com Thu Apr 4 14:35:47 2002 From: ccraft at springsips.com (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: WAY OT: Archaic english grammar (Was: Re: Amish Virus) In-Reply-To: <004901c1dc10$0e57b120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20020404070643.0081f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3CAC791F.6F261F1F@jetnet.ab.ca> <004901c1dc10$0e57b120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020404203532.0704961094@mamacass.springsips.com> I thank thee for pointing out their errors. :) (I was tempted to do so myself, however thou hast beaten me to the punch!) Sincerely thine, Chris, Retro(Computing|Linguistic) Nut (one of whose pet peeves happens to be the misuse of any language. :) On Thursday 04 April 2002 12:36, you wrote: > You guys have too much free time ... and the grammar and syntax in this > thing are all screwed up. "Thou" requires "hast" rather than "have." > Thine = yours. Thy = your. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Franchuk" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:02 AM > Subject: Re: Amish Virus > > > Joe wrote: > > > AMISH VIRUS: > > > > > > Thou have just received the Amish Virus. > > > Since we do not have electricity nor computers, > > > thou art on the honor system. Please delete all > > > of thine files. > > > > > > Thank thee. > > > > Thou have no Stamp, returning to thy sender. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 14:37:20 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <3CAC6725.849C9ABC@compsys.to> Message-ID: > I think what I'll do at this point is try to make an image with >exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot >it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get >far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the >CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it >doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for >one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220. >I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap. While not as fast as the CMD controllers the Viking/QDT is a good solid controller. What version are the ROMs on it? You need a fairly new version to support CD-ROMs. This is the controller that I use on my PDP-11/73 (in fact I just booted off of CD-ROM this morning). I know for a fact that it will talk to a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM (which I like since it's a caddy drive). Before I got the Quad-Hieght /73, which has onboard bootstrap and console port) I had a dual-height /73 without the onboard bootstrap. At that point I had a WQESD ESDI controller in the system whose only purpose was booting the system and a DLV11J for the console port. I've still got the DLV11J in there as well as a RQDX3 in the system that's only there to drive the RX50 floppies. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 4 14:39:01 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" In-Reply-To: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New"" (John Allain) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677F2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <005301c1dbf4$52552720$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15532.47589.775524.606592@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 4, John Allain wrote: > While we're on flashlights I really should rave again > for white LED ones. My favorite can cast a 150 > degree solid pyramid of pure white light, absent of > any filament artifacts, for 10 hours off one 9v battery. > If you turn it down 1 notch, you get 100 hours life. > These things are incredible. I second this. I now use them exclusively, while my trusty Maglite sits in a drawer. I use Photon lights, http://www.photon.com, and I like them a *lot*. If you like to use flashlights to peer into machines and such, and like the idea of having a tiny but astoundingly bright one to carry with you everywhere along with your wallet or house keys, this is the way to go. (not an employee, just a satisfied customer, yadda yadda) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From jbstuart at gulftel.com Thu Apr 4 14:43:02 2002 From: jbstuart at gulftel.com (John & Brenda Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Headstart Explorer Message-ID: <003701c1dc19$50793b60$0201a8c0@John> Hi Mr. Clausen, I have been seeking help on my Headstart Explorer XT computer made by Vendex. I cannot seem to restore it after formating the 40 MB hard disk, Automagic. I have all the original disks that came with it when I bought it new in 1990. The Master Disk says to put it in the A drive and then turn on the computer. I have done this several times and it does not seem to work. I have the other disks, DOS System Disk #1, Programs Disk #2, and Disk 3. I would appreciate any assistance you may give me. Thanks, John From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 4 14:59:30 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204032032.VAA26046@citadel.metropolis.local> <3CAC9E22.9060105@dragonsweb.org> <00cf01c1dc0a$02f4b5e0$9101a8c0@mn> Message-ID: <3CACBEB2.5060208@dragonsweb.org> Bill McDermith wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James B. DiGriz" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 11:40 AM > Subject: Re: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 > > > >>Stan Barr wrote: >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>"James L. Rice" said; >>> >>> >>> >>>>Just out of curiosity, what was available in 1954? I probably coulfdn't >>>>afford the power and a/c for all of the vacuum tubes. >>> >>> >>>The Ferranti Mercury for one. >>> >> > ...snip...snip...snip... > > Why I was speculating about the IBM 650... > > According to http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/timeline.html: > > Year System Manufacturer Total Average > Installations Cost per > in the US System $ > > 1954 MAGNEFILE B Electronics Corp. of America > 1 20,000 > JOHNNIAC The Rand Corporation 1 > DYSEAC US Dept of Commerce 1 > ALWAC II Alwac Computer Division, Hawthorne 2 50,000 > CIRCLE Hogan Laboratories Inc. 2 80,000 > MODAC 5014 Airborne Instruments Laboratory 1 85,000 > MODAC 404 Airborne Instruments Laboratory 1 100,000 > BENDIX D12 Bendix n.a. 55,000 > BURROUGHS 204, Burroughs 112 200,000 > & 205 > IBM 650 RAMAC IBM 1500 182,000 > LGP 30 General Precision 462 49,500 > (Librascope Division) > 1 > WISC Univ. of Wisconsin 1 > > > I'm not sure if you're replying to me here, but I did find a picture of the TRIDAC. It occupied a couple of buildings and included it's own generating plant. Reminds me of the old satellite tracking station in Rosman, NC., except smaller. Haven't figured out what all the pumps and "synthetic gimbals" are for, but even if the electronics were transistorized, it could pull some amps. Enough for several dozen 650's, probably. http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/biganalog.html jbdigriz From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Apr 4 15:43:51 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: GEM OS was: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CAC74B7.30513.4ED524@localhost> I wasn't able to find the Gem files on gaby however. I hope you intend on keeping them on the retroactive site. The Atari subdirectory is empty. Was it your intention to fill it as you have with the Heath one ? I've asked this before, but how close is the Commodore GEOS to the Gem one ? The desktop at least is virtually identical. Does it have an underlying system greatly different from TOS and AES(?) ? Lawrence > > > > >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > > > > > > > Da place! > > > > > > Isn't > > > > > > http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > > > > > > more like the official unofficial web site ? > > > > Sorry. I had no idea. I've had a "favorite" set to retroarchive > > for years. I'll have to change it. > > > I made a quick mirror of it a couple of years ago when it looked like it > might vanish. Since Gaby is doing such a good job, I necer saw fit to > keep the mirror at retroarchive.org updated. > > g. > > -- > "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From tom at sba.miami.edu Thu Apr 4 15:48:31 2002 From: tom at sba.miami.edu (Tom Leffingwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > While not as fast as the CMD controllers the Viking/QDT is a good solid > controller. What version are the ROMs on it? You need a fairly new > version to support CD-ROMs. This is the controller that I use on my > PDP-11/73 (in fact I just booted off of CD-ROM this morning). I know for a > fact that it will talk to a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM (which I like since it's a > caddy drive). My Viking/QDT has a sticker that says Q/B A3.2 on what I believe to be the ROM. I think the 200 CMD controller is consierably lower performance than the 220, but then again, when replacing an RX02, performance really isn't an issue. Hopefully the CMD controller will support the CD-ROM. I have an RRD42 that I could temporarily swipe from another system for testing. I wish I had a way to boot with the Viking, although I guess I could type in the bootstrap, but that's annoying. Also, I'm not sure my 18-bit backplane will work with the Viking. I do have rev E2 or something of the M8186 11/23 board, which as far as I know supports 22-bit addressing. If the Viking will work in an 18-bit setup, its probably worth trying to manually bootstrap it for the purposes of testing different CD-ROMs. > Before I got the Quad-Hieght /73, which has onboard bootstrap and console > port) I had a dual-height /73 without the onboard bootstrap. At that point > I had a WQESD ESDI controller in the system whose only purpose was booting > the system and a DLV11J for the console port. I've still got the DLV11J in > there as well as a RQDX3 in the system that's only there to drive the RX50 > floppies. > > Zane > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 4 15:53:18 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: GEM OS was: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <3CAC74B7.30513.4ED524@localhost> Message-ID: > keeping them on the retroactive site. The Atari subdirectory is empty. Was > it your intention to fill it as you have with the Heath one ? > Oh, I'll definately be keeping the stuff on the retroarchive site. You should also check out http://www.deltasoft.com - that's where all the real GEM magic happens. The Atari stuff is barren because I don't have the time right now to do anything with it. I've go tthis F-15C on my back that eats all my time. :) > I've asked this before, but how close is the Commodore GEOS to the Gem > one ? The desktop at least is virtually identical. Does it have an underlying > system greatly different from TOS and AES(?) ? > > Lawrence GEOS and GEM are similarly functioning products built by two completely different vendors. There is no code commonality between them at all. g. From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 4 15:52:58 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: SIMTEL 8051 Archive Stuff Redux Message-ID: <000701c1dc23$15db6370$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Well, A few weeks ago, I mentioned I'd archived the 8051 stuff from the SIMTEL archive. As it turns out, the QIC-80 tape they're on must have stretched, and I only wrote one set of that stuff. I thought I had it on the hard drive, but all that was left was: ML-ASM51 Metalink 8051 Macro Assembler BASIC-52 BASIC-52 source BASIC31 (BASIC52 adapted for 8031) DIS8051F 8051 disassembler DISASM51 another one 8051-FAQ.TXT what it says 00FILES yada 00README yada 8051STUF.LOG FTP directory of what was there CLOCK.ASM clock program I may have floppies with the stuff, so I'll keep looking... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 4 16:26:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <001b01c1dc27$b53b9260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Without getting into the trial-lawyers thing, I'd say the issue is in how the gun makers promote, distribute, and sell their wares, rather than any other single issue. The point is that, for one example, the gun makers send enough guns into the metro Chicago area, where gun ownership is restricted, to equip every adult in the entire metro area with at least one handgun, yet they never seem to run out. It's wonderful for their sales, but the Chicago authorities have gone on record as opposing the practice. Some effort to behave reasonably, as opposed to making lots of assumptions based on gross violations of local laws, would probably be appreciated by the Chicago area authorities. I don't know that trying to make this a supply-side thing is any smarter than the same effort with respect to drugs. If having a gun on your person when apprehended in the commission of a crime were, in itself, more likely to get you a life-standing-on-your-head-in-a-16"-deep-pool-of-goat-feces-sentence than the crime itself, perhaps people would behave differently. I don't see why the GOV thinks that they should make the gun makers enforce the law. It's worth a try, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:40 PM Subject: Re: The Future End of Classic Computing > > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > > > >To go back to the hammer for a moment, if I go out and buy a hammer and > > >bash somebody's head in with it, then I am guilty of murder. The company > > >that made the hammer, and the shop that sold it to me, are not. And > > >that's how it should be. > > > > Scary thing is... here in the US, it doesn't seem to work that logically. > > People have been sueing gun manufacturers off and on because they made > > the gun that was used to kill someone. > > > > I don't know if anyone has WON a suit, but I do know the suits have been > > filed (and win or loose, you are costing the gun maker needless legal > > troubles). > > > > Sueing people has become so much the norm here... that the government has > > had to step in and offer insurance backing for the companies cleaning up > > the world trade center... because the companies know ALREADY that there > > will be lawsuits when they are done, and without insurance, they know > > they will be sued into bankruptcy. AND, since it is such a known fact > > that they will be sued... no insurance company was willing to insure > > them, which meant they weren't willing to do the work... so the > > government had to step in and offer backing. > > > > F-ing scary! > > > > Remember, this is the country that awarded 3 million dollars to a lady > > because she put her hot coffee in her lap, and then spilled it... and was > > able to sue McDonalds because the coffee was too hot and it burned her > > (yes, there is more to that story, but the fact that she was even able to > > get to trial is just f-ed up... where is the personal responsibility in > > this country?!?) > > > > -chris > > > > > > The trial lawyers, in cahoots with their cohorts in the Congress, have > pretty well eliminated it with the `deep pocket' approach in lawsuits, > and class action suits that are `opt out' rather than `opt in' as they > ought to be. It is all part of a very successful program - to make > lawyers rich(er) - at the expense of everyone else. > > - don > > > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 16:26:45 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" References: <000f01c1dc09$33412bd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CACD325.8070504@internet1.net> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >>They _are_ incredible. And since we're on the "Stupid Laws and >>Legislators" kick this week, here's another one. I can't verify it, >>though. One of Austin's City Councilmen wanted to draft an >>ordinance against carrying the LED flashlights, as they could >>be used as a "stunner" in robberies, rapes, etc. The word I got, >>from a stenographer, was that he was temporarily blinded by one. >>The one he had in his own hand, that is. He was looking at it in >>the store, pointed it at his face, and, yes, you guessed it, >>pushed the button. What a maroon. These are the dolts who get >>to decide what I can and cannot do. What's an LED flashlight? Do you mean one of thelaser pointers? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 4 16:56:03 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" In-Reply-To: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" (Chad Fernandez) References: <000f01c1dc09$33412bd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <3CACD325.8070504@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15532.55811.635406.839552@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 4, Chad Fernandez wrote: > >>They _are_ incredible. And since we're on the "Stupid Laws and > >>Legislators" kick this week, here's another one. I can't verify it, > >>though. One of Austin's City Councilmen wanted to draft an > >>ordinance against carrying the LED flashlights, as they could > >>be used as a "stunner" in robberies, rapes, etc. The word I got, > >>from a stenographer, was that he was temporarily blinded by one. > >>The one he had in his own hand, that is. He was looking at it in > >>the store, pointed it at his face, and, yes, you guessed it, > >>pushed the button. What a maroon. These are the dolts who get > >>to decide what I can and cannot do. > > What's an LED flashlight? Do you mean one of thelaser pointers? No, an LED flashlight. ;) See http://www.photonlight.com. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 17:02:28 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: The Future End of Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <001b01c1dc27$b53b9260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't know that trying to make this a supply-side thing is any smarter than > the same effort with respect to drugs. If having a gun on your person when > apprehended in the commission of a crime were, in itself, more likely to get > you a life-standing-on-your-head-in-a-16"-deep-pool-of-goat-feces-sentence > than the crime itself, perhaps people would behave differently. I don't see > why the GOV thinks that they should make the gun makers enforce the law. It's > worth a try, though. I don't know where you'd find references, but try looking at the use of sawed-off shotguns in robberies in the US. They're incredibly effective as intimidators, and were very popular in the 'teens and '20s. Federal laws were passed mandating atrocious jail time for use of sawed-offs in crimes, ***those laws were agressively enforced***, and shotguns almost disappeared as the gangster's choice. Doc From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 4 17:04:44 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" Message-ID: >What's an LED flashlight? Do you mean one of thelaser pointers? No, they now make flashlights that rather than using a traditional incandescent bulb, use a super bright LED instead. I have one on my keychain that is this tiny thin black plastic thing. You squeeze it, and the LED on the end lights up. It is REALLY freaking bright (bright enough, that if I shine it out a car window, I can read house numbers across the street), and is powered by two fairly standard replaceable button cell batteries. -chris From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 4 17:18:48 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <200204032017.VAA25767@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: You have the Kelvin? What a lovely surprise. On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Ben Franchuk said: > > Stan Barr wrote: > > All of a sudden I feel _very_ old ;-( There were no working electronic > > > computers when I was born...even Collosus was still a few months from > > > completion.... > > > > Well you could go after the mechanical ones :) > > Finding one here in the UK would be difficult! We have a very nice > string (wire, actually..) and pulley tidal computer here in Liverpool. > It was computing tide table for countries all round the world until > replaced by an IBM 1130. > > I remember dismantling a bomb-sight computer for parts in about 1958/9... > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 15:46:11 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <20020404020020.MTCT29105.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Apr 3, 2 09:02:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1732 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/8ae834e2/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 4 17:22:34 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's because you had the wrong wrenches. I've always wanted to have someone ask me for a half-inch wrench and hand him a Whitworth half-inch. I think there's a set in the Rover. On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > American National Coarse. Whitworth is always coarse as I recall. Its > > fine companion would, I think, be BSF - British Standard Fine. Tony can > > probably confirm this. > > Almost on-topic, except it had zero computing technology -- I rode a > '69 Triumph T100C (single-carb 500cc twin) for several years that had a > combination of metric, SAE, and Whitworth fasteners. IIRC, all the body > parts were metric, the external engine components - covers, jets, etc - > were SAE, and the engine internals were Whitworth. I may have that > swapped around. > I dunno if Whitworth was always _coarse_, but it was always > _irritating_! > > Doc > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 15:50:01 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <001701c1db70$66133740$61eeffcc@Shadow> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 3, 2 07:33:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1185 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/79b88e50/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 15:54:22 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:03 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 3, 2 07:14:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/b1b7e19d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 16:05:14 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <001701c1db7d$b123e880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 3, 2 07:09:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3146 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/f474fd7c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 16:07:47 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CABBDB3.4080007@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 3, 2 09:42:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/65488e00/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 16:16:44 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CABBEA0.3030608@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 3, 2 09:46:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1844 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/f9ee0a84/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 4 17:20:39 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784387@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> I have a PS/2 - E. It's a little tiny 80387(?) with a 387 math coprocessor. Four PCMCIA slots, and a floppy drive. Integrated video, parallel and serial. 1.4M floppy, and unknown(right now) hard drive. Does anyone know anything about it? What can I do with it? Will OS/2 work? What interface does the hard drive use, BTW? What are my chances of getting BSD or linux to drive the PCMCIA slots? Anything else I should know about this one? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 17:01:17 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: [was: RE: The Future End of Classic Computing] In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677F3@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Apr 4, 2 10:48:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1495 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020405/30928c53/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 17:03:57 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Apr 4, 2 12:21:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 407 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020405/ee1cc380/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 17:08:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 4, 2 12:35:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020405/7ff2d82c/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 4 17:36:04 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: GEM OS was: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <3CAC74B7.30513.4ED524@localhost> from Lawrence Walker at "Apr 4, 2 03:43:51 pm" Message-ID: <200204042336.PAA29916@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I've asked this before, but how close is the Commodore GEOS to the Gem > one ? The desktop at least is virtually identical. I don't think it is, myself. Berkeley Softworks supposedly modeled it on the Macintosh. > Does it have an underlying > system greatly different from TOS and AES(?) ? Not knowing much about the internals of TOS ... -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 4 17:33:17 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) (Tony Duell) References: <20020404020020.MTCT29105.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <15532.58045.396505.469066@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 4, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can stuff it in my front side pocket with reflector end sticking > > out. Doesn't feel uncomfortable. > > Do you guys have small pockets or something? I've carried things a lot > larger than a 2*AA maglite in my pocket. Is that a maglite in your pocket, or... -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 4 17:50:58 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Except that every VT52 I've ever worked on used > > > semiconductor memory, not core. > > > > > > Anyway. the fact that there's no microprocessor does not mean that > > > there's no software. There are plenty of microcoded TTL designs about > > > (the VT52 is one of them IMHO) which have PROMs containing something that > > > is reasonably called firmware. > > > > Yeah, there is the old 7400 series arithmetic unit... > > The 74x181. I've used it many times. It's also used in many of the > computers that I love (like the classic PERQs and the PDP11/45). > > > > > But in my experience, most pre-micro computer > > equipment used fusible-link ROMs for truth-tables; > > a transitional item, the Processor Tech SOL's > > keyboard, is a good example of this. > > Truely microcoded TTL-based designs are not uncommon. The VT52 is > certainly one. So are some of the DECwriters IIRC (but I would have to > check the prints to be sure). DEC seemed to love microcoded designs, > actually... Hytype IIs also use a 8 bit TTL based microcoded machine (IICRC they use 74LS283 adders, 74LS170 register file chips, along with bipolar PROMS)... > > It's difficult to know just where to draw the line between true > microcoded designs and state machines with the combinatorial part of the > logic in PROMs. In fact I don't think you can really distinguish between > them. > > -tony > Peter Wallace From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 18:04:35 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > That's because you had the wrong wrenches. I've always wanted to have > someone ask me for a half-inch wrench and hand him a Whitworth > half-inch. I think there's a set in the Rover. I had the _right_ wrenches. A 4-inch Snap-On crescent, erm (here we go again), adjustable. Seriously, it wasn't the wrenches so much as keeping the thread patterns straight when I was rebuilding it toasted. Doc From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 4 18:05:25 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? References: Message-ID: <3CACEA45.B963C28F@compsys.to> >Tom Leffingwell wrote: > I think what I'll do at this point is try to make an image with > exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot > it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get > far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the > CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it > doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for > one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220. > I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap. Jerome Fine replies: Starting with a SCSI hard drive is an excellent method. Right now I can use that technique to move files between any system that I have which has a SCSI interface. Although just a bit more complicated than using a Magneto Optical drive, these days the low capacity SCSI hard drives (under 2 GBytes) are very inexpensive. Note that under VMS Exchange, you may be limited to just ONE RT-11 partition, i.e. partition zero. It was over 10 years ago when I used Exchange under VMS and the RT-11 partition default was zero. What I am curious about is how you are able to run the program DUP.SAV which is what you are doing with the command COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: when you are running Exchange under VMS. If you mean that you will first boot RT-11 on the PDP-11 after you have copied V5.03 of RT-11 to the SCSI hard drive, that I can understand - although be careful - since your RX02 files are for V4.00 of RT-11, you will first need to put a set of V5.03 files on an RX02 floppy and boot that. If I am mixed up about your system, please explain. Maybe Exchange under VMS allows the command COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 4 18:17:02 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? References: <3CAC6725.849C9ABC@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3CACECFE.5AF718DC@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I think what I'll do at this point is try to make an image with > >exchange of v5.03 with my program and all, and copy as well as copy/boot > >it to a scsi disk on the vax, and then move it to the PDP. Assuming I get > >far enough to get that working, I'd then experiment with getting it on the > >CD. I did end up coming across a Viking/QDT SCSI controller, but it > >doesn't have bootstrap, and I don't have a BDV11, nor do I have room for > >one. I may buy a CQD-200, as they are a lot cheaper than the the CQD-220. > >I'd be willing to trade the Viking if anyone wants to swap. > While not as fast as the CMD controllers the Viking/QDT is a good solid > controller. What version are the ROMs on it? You need a fairly new > version to support CD-ROMs. This is the controller that I use on my > PDP-11/73 (in fact I just booted off of CD-ROM this morning). I know for a > fact that it will talk to a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM (which I like since it's a > caddy drive). Jerome Fine replies: I presume from what you are saying that the Viking/QDT does not have any boot ROMs. If so, it is one of the very few (probably the only one I know about) NON-DEC controllers or host adapters that does not have a boot ROM. Any idea if there was a DEC approved CDROM drive which did NOT use a caddy? > Before I got the Quad-Hieght /73, which has onboard bootstrap and console > port) I had a dual-height /73 without the onboard bootstrap. At that point > I had a WQESD ESDI controller in the system whose only purpose was booting > the system and a DLV11J for the console port. I've still got the DLV11J in > there as well as a RQDX3 in the system that's only there to drive the RX50 > floppies. Any idea how much an M8190-BB (quad 11/73) might cost? I have a couple, but I want to keep them for a few more years. But Tom might find this is the least expensive way to go. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 18:20:06 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <00e501c1dc37$d8de3dc0$d4ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Peter C. Wallace > >Hytype IIs also use a 8 bit TTL based microcoded machine (IICRC they use >74LS283 adders, 74LS170 register file chips, along with bipolar PROMS)... > I have a few of those boards... Wich I had the correct prints for the board numbers I do have. Could be fun to bend them into a general purpose 8bitter. Allison From aek at spies.com Thu Apr 4 18:56:13 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Harris Model 8 CPU Message-ID: <200204050056.QAA13041@spies.com> Does anyone have any docs on the Harris 24 bit line (or the Datacraft 6024?) Considering there are still H-series machines in use, I've not been able to turn up much at all on them. From rschaefe at gcfn.org Thu Apr 4 19:00:02 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784387@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <007e01c1dc3d$8cd0e260$b5469280@y5f3q8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 06:20 PM Subject: PS/2 - E > I have a PS/2 - E. It's a little tiny 80387(?) with a 387 math > coprocessor. Four PCMCIA slots, and a floppy drive. Integrated > video, parallel and serial. 1.4M floppy, and unknown(right now) > hard drive. It's a neat little toy. I came across the PCMCIA controller card for one a few weeks ago and ended up finding more about the -e than the card itself. IIRC the model number is 9533-- put that in the search and you should end up with some good hits. I just found http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/ohland/9533.html in an old msg to myself. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a good read. > > Does anyone know anything about it? > > What can I do with it? Will OS/2 work? What interface does the > hard drive use, BTW? What are my chances of getting BSD or linux > to drive the PCMCIA slots? Anything else I should know about this > one? NT... ^_^ AFAIK the slots are the standard Intel 82365 and should be seen just fine. I have not tried this, as I haven't had the time to find a case that the card will fit into, it seems to be just a hair wider than normal. That and the eject mech. make for a tight fit. I'm looking for one if anyone has a spare. I don't need the PCMCIA controller. > > Chris Bob > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From tom at sba.miami.edu Thu Apr 4 19:44:04 2002 From: tom at sba.miami.edu (Tom Leffingwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: <3CACEA45.B963C28F@compsys.to> Message-ID: I plan to do the copy/boot in exchange: EXCHANGE> help copy/boot COPY /BOOT /BOOT[=nn] This qualifier copies bootstrap information from a monitor file to blocks 0 and 2 through 5 of an RT-11 volume, permitting you to use that volume as a system volume. The COPY/BOOT operation does not create any files on the volume, it is a special purpose command to create bootable RT-11 systems. RT-11 Version 1 through Version 3 monitors had the system device handler linked into the monitor image. For Version 4 of RT-11, the system device handler uses the standard device handler, and the COPY /BOOT command must dynamically link the handler into the bootstrap area. COPY /BOOT will auto- matically sense whether the monitor file is an early or late monitor, and perform this extra step if required. It finds the default handler for the specific device type, and merges the handler with the monitor as it is copied to the boot area. The optional value on the /BOOT qualifier is used to over- ride the choice of the default handler. The most frequent use of this value occurs when a floppy is mounted in an RX02 drive, but it is desired to create a floppy bootable from an RX01 drive (obviously, the floppy must be single density). The default handler for the RX02 is DY.SYS, and the handler needed for the RX01 is DX.SYS. Therefore, one would use the command COPY /BOOT=DX to make an RX01 bootable system. Do not specify /BOOT=nn for V3 and earlier systems, choose the monitor file DYMNxx.SYS or DXMNxx.SYS as the source file. The /BOOT qualifier only allows a single parameter, the name of the monitor file. The /BOOT qualifier cannot be combined with qualifiers other than /LOG. On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > What I am curious about is how you are able to run the program > DUP.SAV which is what you are doing with the command > COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: > when you are running Exchange under VMS. If you mean > that you will first boot RT-11 on the PDP-11 after you > have copied V5.03 of RT-11 to the SCSI hard drive, that > I can understand - although be careful - since your RX02 > files are for V4.00 of RT-11, you will first need to put a > set of V5.03 files on an RX02 floppy and boot that. If > I am mixed up about your system, please explain. Maybe > Exchange under VMS allows the command > COPY/BOOT DU0:RT11XM.SYS DU0: From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 4 19:46:57 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: <00e501c1dc37$d8de3dc0$d4ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: > From: Peter C. Wallace > > > >Hytype IIs also use a 8 bit TTL based microcoded machine (IICRC they use > >74LS283 adders, 74LS170 register file chips, along with bipolar > PROMS)... > > > > > I have a few of those boards... Wich I had the correct prints for the > board numbers > I do have. Could be fun to bend them into a general purpose 8bitter. > > Allison > > > I remember playing with that idea many many years ago. I dont think it has much of an address range though... Peter Wallace From tom at sba.miami.edu Thu Apr 4 19:52:55 2002 From: tom at sba.miami.edu (Tom Leffingwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: <3CACECFE.5AF718DC@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Any idea if there was a DEC approved CDROM drive which did NOT > use a caddy? All of the DEC CD-ROMs after the RRD42 were caddyless. RRD43's are pretty cheap, and I've never seen a case where it wouldn't work where an RRD42 would. Its a double speed with a spindle that the CD snaps on to, so you can operate the drive in any position, including upside down if you want. RRD45's (quad speed) probably aren't much more...they have the tray style setup like most PCs. RRD46's were still a little pricey last I looked, they were 12x speed if I remember correctly. > Any idea how much an M8190-BB (quad 11/73) might cost? I have a > couple, but I want to keep them for a few more years. But Tom might > find this is the least expensive way to go. I have the same problem of having to get another backplane at that point, as that would take another half slot. Did any of the PDPs ever have a console program like the VAX's and alphas do? I guess those machines are probably pretty expensive. I miss things like "show dev" when working on the PDP. From tsm at palindrome.org Thu Apr 4 20:29:09 2002 From: tsm at palindrome.org (Terry Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Austin, TX: Free Rack-Mounted VAX Message-ID: <05aa01c1dc49$add70dc0$c901a8c0@bujumbura> Free rack-mounted VAX available in Austin, TX. Badged as a MicroVAX II, has a KA-655 CPU (MicroVAX 3800/3900), 32MB of RAM, and standard DELQA, RD54, TK50, etc. In H9642 (42") rackmount cabinet. Located in central Austin. Will go to the landfill if no takers. Please e-mail me if interested or have any questions. Thanks, Terry From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Apr 4 21:04:26 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: New items have appeared in your saved search: Core Memory Message-ID: E-mail from eBay: "New items have appeared in your saved search: Core Memory" Clicking on the item link, we find: >The Core Memory Plus Pillow conforms to your head for a soothing, customized fit. > Layered memory foam promotes a proper sleeping posture, while the resilient foam > base provides therapeutic values. I'd think those ferrite beads would leave a pretty nasty imprint on your face, not to mention getting poked by the wires all the time. So, how many bits are these things, anyway??? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 4 21:08:02 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: In a message dated 4/4/2002 6:28:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, csmith@amdocs.com writes: > I have a PS/2 - E. It's a little tiny 80387(?) with a 387 math > coprocessor. Four PCMCIA slots, and a floppy drive. Integrated > video, parallel and serial. 1.4M floppy, and unknown(right now) > hard drive. > > Does anyone know anything about it? > > What can I do with it? Will OS/2 work? What interface does the > hard drive use, BTW? What are my chances of getting BSD or linux > to drive the PCMCIA slots? Anything else I should know about this > one? > It's a neat system. I bought two and still have one in original box with all original ship group items. One of the two I bought was still under 3 year warranty! it's a 486slc class machine and uses a thinkpad floppy drive and 2.5 IDE laptop hard drive. nice and quiet too. takes 16meg max. OS/2 runs fine on it, just like it would on any PS/2 or you can use win 3.1. -- DB Young www.nothingtodo.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020404/e00a15cb/attachment.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 4 21:36:28 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Austin, TX: Free Rack-Mounted VAX References: <05aa01c1dc49$add70dc0$c901a8c0@bujumbura> Message-ID: <01b901c1dc53$828f24e0$cc000240@default> I will be in Austin this weekend to pick up some other machines and can drop for it, if it's still there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Murphy" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 8:29 PM Subject: Austin, TX: Free Rack-Mounted VAX > Free rack-mounted VAX available in Austin, TX. Badged as a MicroVAX II, has > a KA-655 CPU (MicroVAX 3800/3900), 32MB of RAM, and standard DELQA, RD54, > TK50, etc. In H9642 (42") rackmount cabinet. Located in central Austin. Will > go to the landfill if no takers. Please e-mail me if interested or have any > questions. > > Thanks, > Terry > > > From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Thu Apr 4 21:22:49 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020404222249.00f90b64@pop1.epm.net.co> At 11:45 AM 4/4/02 -0500, you wrote: >I would LOVE to see that happen.... take me to Cuba or I'll fail to break >your skin with my mini shards of metal, in my lethal squeeze powered >dispenser! Don't make me empty this thing onto my shoe... I'll do it... >I'm just crazy enough! And if that doesn't scare you... I'll beat you >with this airline pillow! >Hell, you could do more damage by sitting in the exit row, and pulling >the shiny red handle on the wall. >-chris whoever said that fear was a rational emotion? the main problem is, that's how this crisis has been confronted--rather irrationally, i.e., by appealing to mankind's worst instincts, which, by the way, have surfaced as usual. 21st century schizoid man (does anyone remember this song?). please don't get me started on this... I used to be able to carry my victorinox explorer with me ... to drive this on topic, how many of you fell for the hp67c april fool's joke at the hp calculator museum? I did, for a few ecstatic seconds, and then felt _rather_ heartbroken... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 21:28:17 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: from "Jerome H. Fine" at Apr 04, 2002 07:17:02 PM Message-ID: <200204050328.g353SHU11377@shell1.aracnet.com> > I presume from what you are saying that the Viking/QDT does not have any > boot ROMs. If so, it is one of the very few (probably the only one I know > about) NON-DEC controllers or host adapters that does not have a boot > ROM. There are four versions of the Viking board. Tape, Disk, Tape/Disk, and Disk/Boot (it can only boot a PDP-11). > Any idea if there was a DEC approved CDROM drive which did NOT > use a caddy? Sure, any CD-ROM that they had out after the RRD-42. > Any idea how much an M8190-BB (quad 11/73) might cost? I have a > couple, but I want to keep them for a few more years. But Tom might > find this is the least expensive way to go. It would probably be a worth while upgrade, BUT it would also require a backplane and memory upgrade, and as I recall he doesn't have a budget for this. As for the price I don't remember, but I know they've come down in price (I got mine as part of a trade). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 21:34:16 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Harris Model 8 CPU In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Apr 04, 2002 04:56:13 PM Message-ID: <200204050334.g353YHL11501@shell1.aracnet.com> > Does anyone have any docs on the Harris 24 bit line (or > the Datacraft 6024?) Considering there are still H-series > machines in use, I've not been able to turn up much at > all on them. Somewhere I've got printouts of the JCL 'man' pages from a H550. That's ALL the doc's I've ever really seen on one. The same binder has 3 8" floppies containing documents I created with the MUSE Word Processor. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 4 21:36:25 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: New items have appeared in your saved search: Core Memory References: Message-ID: <3CAD1BB9.5F723E1@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill Richman wrote: > I'd think those ferrite beads would leave a pretty nasty imprint on > your face, not to mention getting poked by the wires all the time. > So, how many bits are these things, anyway??? One bit per bit of core. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Apr 4 22:35:35 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <000701c1dc23$15db6370$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> References: <000701c1dc23$15db6370$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020405043535.GB3035@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Douglas H. Quebbeman, from writings of Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 04:52:58PM -0500: > from the SIMTEL archive. As it turns out, the QIC-80 tape > they're on must have stretched, and I only wrote one set Sorry to hear that this happened to your tape. :-( I'm becoming convinced that the safest way to preserve software is to keep it on a live filesystem that's frequently backed up, using at least one type of relatively modern storage media - or at least on mylar tape, although that's impractical for large amounts of data (and impractical for me because I haven't acquired a tape punch/reader yet). Any thoughts on this? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 22:20:06 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" References: Message-ID: <3CAD25F6.8030502@internet1.net> Wow, I want one.... must have, need, etc...... ooo Toyz :-) I've like falshlights since I was a kid. My sister and I both get it from our father. I used to try and build them. Once I tried using the aluminum tube case from some kind of military flare. It was kind of neat, but I had to hold the reflector in by hand :-) Chad Fernandez Micigan, USA Chris wrote: >>What's an LED flashlight? Do you mean one of thelaser pointers? > > > No, they now make flashlights that rather than using a traditional > incandescent bulb, use a super bright LED instead. > > I have one on my keychain that is this tiny thin black plastic thing. You > squeeze it, and the LED on the end lights up. It is REALLY freaking > bright (bright enough, that if I shine it out a car window, I can read > house numbers across the street), and is powered by two fairly standard > replaceable button cell batteries. > > -chris > > > > > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 22:25:42 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CAD2746.4060500@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>I want quality, but sometimes it seems that I have to go too high end to >>get it. > > > Yes, I have that problem too. Often I simply _can't_ buy a quality item > any more. Which means I end up not buying anything, or more likely > finding some battered second-hand device and spending time restoring it. I end up not buying anything quite often too. Sometimes, I end up just buying the cheap piece of junk. I often look for used stuff. However, I rarley find things as I want/need them. Usually have to just "keep an eye out" for things that I have wanted in the past. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 22:29:06 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CAD2812.5050406@internet1.net> I've read about bolt types on Brit bikes a bit. It seems that they had a variety of things they called Whitworth. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Merle K. Peirce wrote: > That's because you had the wrong wrenches. I've always wanted to have > someone ask me for a half-inch wrench and hand him a Whitworth > half-inch. I think there's a set in the Rover. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 4 22:37:00 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CAD29EC.4040000@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Then the world is screwed up (but that's nothing new). PCs in the UK are > assmebled with 6-32 UNC screws (which we find hard to get) mostly. I > suppose yours are assembled with M3 screws, right :-) I'm not sure what size they are. I run into several sizes actually. Once on a while, I get desperate for a screw and start digging through my collction of screws from when I was into R/C cars. Usually, I can't find a match, metric or SAE. I do have one big unused server case, made in the US, by Tandy, for Grid, for the US Government. It does use 6/32. If I ever do use it again, I'll be switching all the screws to "allen" head button type screws. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 22:41:31 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <20020405043535.GB3035@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Apr 04, 2002 11:35:35 PM Message-ID: <200204050441.g354fVp13889@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm becoming convinced that the safest way to preserve software is to > keep it on a live filesystem that's frequently backed up, using at > least one type of relatively modern storage media - or at least on > mylar tape, although that's impractical for large amounts of data (and > impractical for me because I haven't acquired a tape punch/reader > yet). Any thoughts on this? I've already become convinced the only practical way to preserve it is onto live filesystems that are regularly backed up. The trick is finding an affordable backup system. I think I've finally found one. My idea is to build a Linux box with EIDE RAID setup to mirror a couple BIG EIDE disks (80+ Gigabytes). Then have everything else backup to those disks. I've figured out good ways to backup UNIX (rsync), VMS (BACKUP to an NFS mounted disk should work), and MacOS (Retrospect can backup via FTP). What I've not figured out is a way to backup Windows. Ideally the system would have enough Mirrored diskspace that it would be possible to keep a couple full backups, and a LOT of incremental backups on it. If I set this up, I'd like to also have some sort of tape drive hooked up to periodically backup the data that's been backed up to the system. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 22:50:05 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <20020405043535.GB3035@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 4 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > I'm becoming convinced that the safest way to preserve software is to > keep it on a live filesystem that's frequently backed up, using at > least one type of relatively modern storage media - or at least on > mylar tape, although that's impractical for large amounts of data (and > impractical for me because I haven't acquired a tape punch/reader > yet). Any thoughts on this? I don't know about mylar, but anything that's important to me is on at least 2 physical drives - one in the box, subject to my weekly backups, and one on a shelf, and on CD as well as backup tapes. More because I _can_ than because I think it's imperative. MDR does disaster recovery, specialising in Tivoli's TSM, so I get a very frequent dose of horror story. It's appalling to me how many multi-billion-dollar businesses budget their data-protection on the order of a few thousand a year. It becomes appalling to them when they find out they don't _have_ any data protection. Doc From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 4 14:37:23 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:40:34 CDT." <3CAC9E22.9060105@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <200204042037.VAA06791@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "James B. DiGriz" said; > Stan Barr wrote: > > Hi, > > > > "James L. Rice" said; > > > > > >>Just out of curiosity, what was available in 1954? I probably coulfdn't > >>afford the power and a/c for all of the vacuum tubes. > > > > > > The Ferranti Mercury for one. > > > > Ferranti were experimenting with germanium transistors in computer > > circuits around that time - or possible a year or two later. > > Research that led to the Atlas, the fastest computer of its era... > > One year later, 1955, you have the TRIDAC, an analog aeronatical > simulator that is claimed to be the first computer to use transistors. > > Did Ferranti have anything to do with that project? There's only sketchy > information on the web about it that I could find with google. It wouldn't surprise me. Manchester University were early pioneers in semiconducer applications. Ferranti were closely associated with them, and Ferranti were heavily involved in military and aviation work. See: http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/biganalog.html Ferranti were limited to convential alloy drift germanium transistors as they couldn't persuade anyone to manufacture ones designed for digital use. The Atlas used OC170s, which were designed for radio use, running at 10MHz IIRC. Floating point multiply in 4.97 microseconds which was pretty quick at the time! I dismantled a Ferranti board circa 1962/3 to recover the transistors... wish I'd kept the board now ;-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 4 23:06:17 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Cromemco Docs Message-ID: No, I didn't find a Cromemco. I did find, in a box of stuff that I thought was all Fortune 32:16 stuff, a loose-leaf binder with 200-300 pages of Cromemco documentation. It says on the flyleaf: This manual was produced on a Cromemco model 3355 printer Using the Cromemco Word Processing System, There is: Cromemco Fortran IV Instruction Manual - copyright 1977, 1979 Part 1 Fortran Reference Manual Part 2 Fortran User's Manual Cromemco Macro Assembler Manual Cromemco Macro Assembler Manual Addendum - dated January 1980 It's single-sided printing (not great quality), at a quick glance it seems to be all there, and it's in excellent condition. Anybody who can use it pays shipping. Doc From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 23:25:20 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020405052520.78703.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> > In a message dated 4/4/2002 6:28:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, > csmith@amdocs.com writes: > > I have a PS/2 - E. It's a little tiny 80387(?) with a 387 math > > coprocessor. 486SLC-50 > > Four PCMCIA slots, and a floppy drive. Integrated > > video, parallel and serial. 1.4M floppy, and unknown(right now) > > hard drive. Yep. > > Does anyone know anything about it? Yes. I have two, one with the Quad-PCMCIA card, one without. They are slightly sought after. I had a lead on another one (for someone else) this week from an intern at work, but he threw his out when he moved recently. :-( > > What can I do with it? Will OS/2 work? What interface does the > > hard drive use, BTW? Ordinary 44-pin 2.5" laptop IDE. 540MB max addressing in the BIOS. > > What are my chances of getting BSD or linux > > to drive the PCMCIA slots? Very good. I have Linux running on mine. I used it as a faux-Cisco PIX for a development LAN. Had 4 x 3C589 in it, one for a connection to the 'net and three for simulated internal LAN and DMZs. It ran for months passing packets (didn't implement any filters, but didn't need them for development). > > Anything else I should know about this one? 16MB max. 12MB if you want to use the linear-mapped mode of the internal video. Personally, I run text-mode Linux, so I'd rather have all the RAM in the world. If I were running a GUI, it would probably have a better response with less RAM because of the faster video access. If you google for PS-2/E and/or the IBM part number 9533, you'll find a couple of good pages out there, including (from IBM) the disk image you'll need to configure it (it doesn't have a ROM-based config like many brands of PeeCees). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 23:46:39 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020405054639.58442.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > Yeah, there is the old 7400 series arithmetic unit... > > > > The 74x181. I've used it many times. It's also used in many of the > > computers that I love (like the classic PERQs and the PDP11/45). If anyone needs a few, I have a source here in town... the same place I got my TI 980A from. He doesn't have tubes and tubes, but I think a handful could be scored. These are 1972-era 74181s, not 74F181s, if that matters for your application. He would be very happy to trade some for BCD TTL for his electronics students (7492/74192 and similar counters keep coming up in our conversations). He has a limited class budget, so he would rather swap stuff than go to the well for extra dollars for chips that the electronics lab has run out of. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 5 00:09:12 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book Message-ID: <20020405061038.BONI15543.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman Now isn't THIS a frickin' coincidence -- Joe Rigdon just posted a link to an Ebay auction which included this very tome . . . Glen 0/0 > I used to have a copy of: > > PASCAL User Manual and Report > Authors: Jensen & Wirth > Pub: Springer-Verlag > > It had a silver cover with red & black printing. I loaned it out, > it never came back. > > If anyone has a copy they'd part with, or finds one, please > contact me. From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 5 00:17:14 2002 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? Message-ID: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DC2@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Hi all. I need some advise. In 3 weeks time Edward and I drive to Italy (some 1100 km) to pick up several PDP-11/70 parts. I have the oppertunity to drag 2 RM03 massbus drives and some packs back home. Now I know already that these drives weigh about 200 kilo, have a disk capacity of 67 Mb and are really power-hungry: at 240 V/50 Hz. stand-by is 3.5 A. running they consume 11.5 A. and rush-in current is 22 A. My experience is that DEC tend to give high numbers for the power consumption, but do these drives eat that much current? Are they worth preserving? Or should I leave them where they are? Next to the 11/70 is looks great (IMHO) but I would love to hear some opinions from other collectors. - Henk. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 00:35:21 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: should I take RM03's ? (Gooijen H) References: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DC2@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Message-ID: <15533.17833.740648.732205@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 5, Gooijen H wrote: > I need some advise. > In 3 weeks time Edward and I drive to Italy (some 1100 km) > to pick up several PDP-11/70 parts. > I have the oppertunity to drag 2 RM03 massbus drives and > some packs back home. Now I know already that these drives > weigh about 200 kilo, have a disk capacity of 67 Mb and > are really power-hungry: at 240 V/50 Hz. stand-by is 3.5 A. > running they consume 11.5 A. and rush-in current is 22 A. > > My experience is that DEC tend to give high numbers for the > power consumption, but do these drives eat that much current? > > Are they worth preserving? Or should I leave them where they are? > Next to the 11/70 is looks great (IMHO) but I would love to hear > some opinions from other collectors. A.K.A. CDC 9762 with a Massbus<->SMD adapter in the bottom. Nice drives. I powered two of them on a 110V 15A circuit....as long as I spun them up sequentially to let the starting surge die down, the breaker stayed closed. I never measured the actual current draw, but that sorta says it. :) If you have the space, grab 'em! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 00:38:51 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020405063851.50543.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I have the Xerox Hytype II service manual with schematics of the infamous Logic I and II boards, several versions. Let me know the Board #'s and etch and if I got 'em, I can scan them. I used to repair these printers (mostly at a board level) in a previous life. I don't know if making them into your own CPU would be practical but there sure is a lot to learn on these two boards...even now. --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: > > > From: Peter C. Wallace > > > > > >Hytype IIs also use a 8 bit TTL based microcoded > machine (IICRC they use > > >74LS283 adders, 74LS170 register file chips, > along with bipolar > > PROMS)... > > > > > > > > > I have a few of those boards... Wich I had the > correct prints for the > > board numbers > > I do have. Could be fun to bend them into a > general purpose 8bitter. > > > > Allison > > > > > > > > I remember playing with that idea many many years > ago. I dont think it has > much of an address range though... > > > > Peter Wallace > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 00:47:03 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <20020405043535.GB3035@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> I have a paper tape punch that does Mylar. too bad the density is so low and the cost of Mylar is so high! I too worry about preserving this type of history. I've been playing with my PDP-8 and its software, and I wonder what the oldest existing program that actually runs might be... I once worked with a 3M representative when the company I was working for was getting into CD-ROMS and CD-R's. He claimed that eventually, CD's that are factory made would suffer from moisture migration (same as a chip) unless they used a gold and not aluminum layer. He said that with the formulas available at the time (mid-90's), they thought but would not guarantee that CD-R's would last from 25-100 years if kept in a cool, dark, dry place when not used. I know for certain that the dye formulas have changed since then. Anyone else know more recent data? I own a music CD from the dawn of the CD era (mid-80's?) and it still plays perfectly (although this is no indication of data integrity). At that time, I think they cost maybe $25 and the "jewel box" was so well made you could use it to prop up a table leg! Now you look at them funny and they crack or break. --- "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Quothe Douglas H. Quebbeman, from writings of Thu, > Apr 04, 2002 at 04:52:58PM -0500: > > from the SIMTEL archive. As it turns out, the > QIC-80 tape > > they're on must have stretched, and I only wrote > one set > > Sorry to hear that this happened to your tape. :-( > > I'm becoming convinced that the safest way to > preserve software is to > keep it on a live filesystem that's frequently > backed up, using at > least one type of relatively modern storage media - > or at least on > mylar tape, although that's impractical for large > amounts of data (and > impractical for me because I haven't acquired a tape > punch/reader > yet). Any thoughts on this? > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference > between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief > that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, > using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to > justify much human cruelty. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From hhacker at ev1.net Fri Apr 5 01:31:47 2002 From: hhacker at ev1.net (William R. Buckley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DC2@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Message-ID: > Hi all. > > I need some advise. > In 3 weeks time Edward and I drive to Italy (some 1100 km) > to pick up several PDP-11/70 parts. > I have the oppertunity to drag 2 RM03 massbus drives and > some packs back home. Now I know already that these drives > weigh about 200 kilo, have a disk capacity of 67 Mb and > are really power-hungry: at 240 V/50 Hz. stand-by is 3.5 A. > running they consume 11.5 A. and rush-in current is 22 A. > > My experience is that DEC tend to give high numbers for the > power consumption, but do these drives eat that much current? > > Are they worth preserving? Or should I leave them where they are? > Next to the 11/70 is looks great (IMHO) but I would love to hear > some opinions from other collectors. > > - Henk. > Frankly, do you really intend to use those drives? My point is that I would acquire them but, only as a component of a complete system, and definately not as a part which I expected to function. Compared to contemporary systems, they are woefully inadequate, and so usage of same seems pointless, if not foolish. Those drives are museum pieces, and should be viewed as such. Hence, get them, since they look nice next to the CPU but, do not use them. Find an alternative source of external storage to use with the CPU. For instance, I have two RM02's as part of my 11/44 but, I never supply them with power. Instead, for actual operating storage, I use some Fujitsu Eagles. As a practical point, I think it is very good to acquire and hold old mainframes but, it is better to use emulators (like Ersatz-11) for actual execution. The reason is the excessive power needs of older systems versus the same for modern systems, not to mention the tremendous improvement in throughput offered by an emulator over the old hardware. After all, when it comes to computers, they are all Turing machine equivalents, yet, no one actually runs software designed for an actual Turing machine. The results of execution will be the same, whether executed on a real PDP, or an exactingly implemented emulator. The only expected difference will be in the time to completion of program execution. Sure, sure, I know my position is not going to be well accepted by those members of our list having a purist bent but, I do expect that emulators will continue to be effective long after our hardware possessions stop functioning due to failing parts, etc. Moral: Forget about using those RM03's. Instead, get them for the museum value. William R. Buckley From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 02:06:37 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: "When programming is outlawed, only outlaws will program"" In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020404095810.02346e68@pc> References: Message-ID: <3CAD772D.2855.30D468DB@localhost> > >Perhaps it's his penchant for asking young hacker boys to come home with > >him and "share massages" so that he would feel comfortable discussing his > >past with them. > For me as young cute hacker magazine writer, it was the > invitation / demand that a good time to do the interview > would be while "working out" with him in the hotel gym. > No other time would work. I declined... Well, either I was just not cute enough to get, or not fluent enough in English to understand such an offer when he stayed with us. Now, thinking again, maybe one of my friends was cuter and stole him from me ... theese Bastards ! SCNR - I'd considere him just average weired, and I know a lot more people where I would deny that I know em. His personal pleasures are his business, and I still can say no. Well, blame it on my low moral values, I'm European. TBOTA - He did some stuff wich is OT to this list because of the historic relevance. Gruss H. P.S.:After all, I like back rubs too ... my only fault is that I'd rather let some 20 year old girls do the job... -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 02:19:42 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CAD7A3E.28022.30E06278@localhost> > > > > >http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > > > > Da place! > > > Isn't > > > http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > > > more like the official unofficial web site ? > > Sorry. I had no idea. I've had a "favorite" set to retroarchive > > for years. I'll have to change it. > I made a quick mirror of it a couple of years ago when it looked like it > might vanish. Since Gaby is doing such a good job, I necer saw fit to > keep the mirror at retroarchive.org updated. Gene, my mail was never ment to put your work down. No way. We need people who react quickly to save information. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 02:24:31 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:04 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <002001c1dbed$8ca76fc0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3CAD7B5F.1432.30E4CD06@localhost> > >http://www.gaby.de/cpm/index.html > >more like the official unofficial web site ? > >AFAIR Retroarchive is only snapshoot of the old site, > >while the pages at gaby.de are still maintained (and > >extended). > Is a good thing. The extensions are very fine. Gaby is very determinated wehn it comes to CP/M. Girls ... :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Fri Apr 5 02:38:28 2002 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <3CAD7A3E.28022.30E06278@localhost> References: <3CAD7A3E.28022.30E06278@localhost> Message-ID: <62989.62.148.198.97.1017995908.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> Hans Franke said: > No way. We need people who react quickly to save > information. Amen. I've lost so much good information because I've thought that "Hey, it's in the web and somebody has to have a copy, right ?". For example, I *still* haven't found that particular "somebody" that has a copy of the webpage with instruction on how to break Framemakers NeXT m68k version copy-protection with GDB. Just for instructional uses of course. After the page was pulled I was able to do it myself (once) but now I'm just too lazy. And before anyone starts screaming, I've been trying to buy the program for close to six years now. So now I'm stuck in a loop of copying every single usefull snippet. I've got around 1GB of mailing-lists archived (after cleaning them up) and a lot of web-pages and pdf:s. Thank $DEITY for groups.google.com, the best thing on the Internet. -- jht From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 5 03:56:46 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New""" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020405115646.A327437@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:04:44PM -0500, Chris wrote: > I have one on my keychain that is this tiny thin black plastic thing. I have a similar thing called "Photonpump V8". It has a glareing white LED. The ideal tool for the VAX mechanician if you have to twiddle with the drive cables in a BA123... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 04:24:47 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ?" Message-ID: <002301c1dc8c$203dd5a0$9aeeffcc@Shadow> > A.K.A. CDC 9762 with a Massbus<->SMD adapter in the bottom. Nice > drives. I powered two of them on a 110V 15A circuit....as long as I > spun them up sequentially to let the starting surge die down, the > breaker stayed closed. I never measured the actual current draw, but > that sorta says it. :) If anyone runs across one of these in either Prime colors or straight CDC color/badging, please drop me a line. I have terribly fond memories of them... I just let Doug Gwyn beat me on one of the 9764? (the larger 300MB drive that's somewhat similar) on e-Bay... thx, -dq From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Apr 5 04:37:48 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066559@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Tom Leffingwell wrote: >All of the DEC CD-ROMs after the RRD42 were caddyless. R The RRD44 on my desk here needs a caddy. Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Apr 5 04:43:34 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706655A@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Note that under VMS Exchange, you may be limited to just ONE >RT-11 partition, i.e. partition zero. It was over 10 years ago when >I used Exchange under VMS and the RT-11 partition default was >zero. If all you want is a straight copy of an RT-11 disk and you are using OpenVMS, why not use BACKUP/PHYSICAL? I would suggest: $ BACKUP/PHYSICAL device: filename.BCK/SAVE This would save your floppy contents in filename.BCK. Then restore with: $ BACKUP/PHYSICAL filename.BCK/SAVE device: I don't have the necessary h/w anymore to try this, but it should work. I've certainly done something similar with RX50 WPS floppies and I've seen others do the same with DECmate III floppies. The added advantage is that you end up with a block-by-block copy of your floppy that you can save on CD or whatever. Antonio From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Apr 5 05:05:26 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Headstart Explorer References: <003701c1dc19$50793b60$0201a8c0@John> Message-ID: <001901c1dc91$ca80eca0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Did you do a high or a low-level format ? Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: John & Brenda Stuart To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Headstart Explorer > Hi Mr. Clausen, > > I have been seeking help on my Headstart Explorer XT computer made by > Vendex. I cannot seem to restore it after formating the 40 MB hard disk, > Automagic. I have > all the original disks that came with it when I bought it new in 1990. The > Master Disk says to put it in the A drive and then turn on the computer. I > have done this several times and it does not seem to work. I have the other > disks, DOS System Disk #1, Programs Disk #2, and Disk 3. > I would appreciate any assistance you may give me. > > Thanks, > John > > From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Apr 5 05:25:02 2002 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Headstart Explorer In-Reply-To: <003701c1dc19$50793b60$0201a8c0@John> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405062222.00b20bb0@mail.wincom.net> At 02:43 PM 04/04/2002 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Mr. Clausen, > >I have been seeking help on my Headstart Explorer XT computer made by >Vendex. I cannot seem to restore it after formating the 40 MB hard disk, >Automagic. I have >all the original disks that came with it when I bought it new in 1990. The >Master Disk says to put it in the A drive and then turn on the computer. I >have done this several times and it does not seem to work. I have the other >disks, DOS System Disk #1, Programs Disk #2, and Disk 3. >I would appreciate any assistance you may give me. > >Thanks, >John More information would be helpful, does anything appear on the screen when you turn it onwith no disk , or with Number 1 or number 2? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 05:40:40 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ?" In-Reply-To: RE: should I take RM03's ?" (Douglas H. Quebbeman) References: <002301c1dc8c$203dd5a0$9aeeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <15533.36152.865009.699116@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 5, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > If anyone runs across one of these in either Prime colors or > straight CDC color/badging, please drop me a line. I have > terribly fond memories of them... > > I just let Doug Gwyn beat me on one of the 9764? (the larger > 300MB drive that's somewhat similar) on e-Bay... ...the very same Doug Gwyn who once told me that he wasn't interested in classic hardware, only software. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Apr 5 05:43:37 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204042037.VAA06791@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <3CAD8DE9.113FD0F6@gifford.co.uk> Stan Barr wrote: > I dismantled a Ferranti board circa 1962/3 to recover the transistors... > wish I'd kept the board now ;-( Likewise, I dismantled a Leo board in about 1975 to recover several GET111 germanium transistors. I still have the board and the transistors. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 05:55:14 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3CADACC2.6405.31A5B8B8@localhost> Crashed computer boots local man into jail: http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 5 03:02:49 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 Message-ID: <200204050902.KAA09296@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Merle K. Peirce" said: You have the Kelvin? What a lovely surprise. ^^^^^^ [see below...} >On Wed, 3 Apr 2002, Stan Barr wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Ben Franchuk said: >> > Stan Barr wrote: >> > All of a sudden I feel _very_ old ;-( There were no working electronic >> > > computers when I was born...even Collosus was still a few months from >> > > completion.... >> > >> > Well you could go after the mechanical ones :) >> >> Finding one here in the UK would be difficult! We have a very nice >> string (wire, actually..) and pulley tidal computer here in Liverpool. >> It was computing tide table for countries all round the world until >> replaced by an IBM 1130. >> Kelvin?? Must look that one up... ;-) I don't personally have such a thing ;-) But Liverpool University have a Doodson/Lege - magnificnt beast! See www.pol.ac.uk -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 06:15:31 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? Message-ID: <000701c1dc9b$99df62c0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On April 5, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > If anyone runs across one of these in either Prime colors or > > straight CDC color/badging, please drop me a line. I have > > terribly fond memories of them... > > > > I just let Doug Gwyn beat me on one of the 9764? (the larger > > 300MB drive that's somewhat similar) on e-Bay... > > ...the very same Doug Gwyn who once told me that he wasn't > interested in classic hardware, only software. ;) Well, people's interests change, and Doug's a good guy... I think he's possible spreading himself a bit too thinly, but then I resemble that remark sufficiently that I'll not be criticizing anyone for it. I've had a few hobby-related things go so far south before that it left me in a seriously deep funk for, well, years. But forgiveness can be liberating, and the good things that have been happening that last few months to the last year more than make up for it. Sometimes, you just gotta take the long view... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 06:36:03 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: RE: should I take RM03's ? (Douglas H. Quebbeman) References: <000701c1dc9b$99df62c0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15533.39475.305812.802228@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 5, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > I just let Doug Gwyn beat me on one of the 9764? (the larger > > > 300MB drive that's somewhat similar) on e-Bay... > > > > ...the very same Doug Gwyn who once told me that he wasn't > > interested in classic hardware, only software. ;) > > Well, people's interests change, and Doug's a good guy... > I think he's possible spreading himself a bit too thinly, > but then I resemble that remark sufficiently that I'll > not be criticizing anyone for it. Oh yes, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise...I just keep losing eBay auctions to him. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 5 07:12:32 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADACC2.6405.31A5B8B8@localhost> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> At 01:55 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Crashed computer boots local man into jail: >http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml >Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, >they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, >put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. >Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. Uhm, thanks! :-) But it was a computer from Gateway! - John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 19:19:51 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <000a01c1dc3f$fdb17380$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Chad Fernandez >I've read about bolt types on Brit bikes a bit. It seems that they had >a variety of things they called Whitworth. > >Chad Fernandez >Merle K. Peirce wrote: >> That's because you had the wrong wrenches. I've always wanted to have >> someone ask me for a half-inch wrench and hand him a Whitworth >> half-inch. I think there's a set in the Rover. Whitworth were decimal inch sizes. I have a set from about 30 years back along with metric and fractional inch sizes. What I dont have is a pair of vise grips, feh! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 19:22:37 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) Message-ID: <001101c1dc40$604c10e0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Zane H. Healy > >I've already become convinced the only practical way to preserve it is onto >live filesystems that are regularly backed up. I do that. Further I usually use a SET or drives if they are the fixed media as then if one fails the other unpowered twin is valid. SCSI RZ2x and 5x drives are handy for that though I also use RD52s, and ST225s. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 19:27:38 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai Message-ID: <003201c1dc41$13abdda0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Hans Franke > >> Is a good thing. The extensions are very fine. > >Gaby is very determinated wehn it comes to CP/M. >Girls ... :) We can't do math but we seem to gravitate to CP/M. ;) It's still a favorite as it does have a decent filesystem and is fully understandable without reading source code. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 4 19:36:17 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Core Memory Interfacing? Message-ID: <005a01c1dc42$48da41a0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> Hi, The boards I have are: assy pn40827-05 rev-6 (has 3 82s181 proms on top edge) assy 40505 rev-C (has crystal and berg connector on top) Building a cpu is anything but practical... why should modding this? ;) Allison -----Original Message----- From: Loboyko Steve To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, April 05, 2002 1:47 AM Subject: Re: Core Memory Interfacing? > >I have the Xerox Hytype II service manual with >schematics of the infamous Logic I and II boards, >several versions. Let me know the Board #'s and etch >and if I got 'em, I can scan them. I used to repair >these printers (mostly at a board level) in a previous >life. > >I don't know if making them into your own CPU would be >practical but there sure is a lot to learn on these >two boards...even now. > >--- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >> On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: >> >> > From: Peter C. Wallace >> > > >> > >Hytype IIs also use a 8 bit TTL based microcoded >> machine (IICRC they use >> > >74LS283 adders, 74LS170 register file chips, >> along with bipolar >> > PROMS)... >> > > >> > >> > >> > I have a few of those boards... Wich I had the >> correct prints for the >> > board numbers >> > I do have. Could be fun to bend them into a >> general purpose 8bitter. >> > >> > Allison >> > >> > >> > >> >> I remember playing with that idea many many years >> ago. I dont think it has >> much of an address range though... >> >> >> >> Peter Wallace >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 5 07:44:17 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAD29EC.4040000@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I do have one big unused server case, made in the US, by Tandy, for > Grid, for the US Government. It does use 6/32. If I ever do use it > again, I'll be switching all the screws to "allen" head button type screws. Whitworth, or BSF? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jbstuart at gulftel.com Fri Apr 5 07:46:30 2002 From: jbstuart at gulftel.com (John & Brenda Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Headstart Explorer Help Message-ID: <001901c1dca8$4a50a4a0$0201a8c0@John> Hi again Mr. Carlson, I determined yesterday that I am missing a file or folder entitled "Patches". If you have this file in your Explorer, would you please email it to me? Thank you, John From kentborg at borg.org Fri Apr 5 08:14:15 2002 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:46:11PM +0100 References: <20020404020020.MTCT29105.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20020405091415.A26252@borg.org> On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 10:46:11PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I'm another mag-liter. Got a 2*AA in the toolbox, a 2*C on the shelf, a > 1*AAA on my keyring, and so on. I've found them to be very reliable. I have a single AAA on my keychain too. It is my second one, something got messed up with the rear end connections and then with the switch, so after many years (nearly all the black paint gone) I got another. Not terribly bright but very handy. Have used it to peer under raised computer room floors, but mostly use it for some little close purpose every few days. For our wedding we had double AAAs embossed as favors for our guests (small wedding). Nice little light. But for a *real* flashlight that is roughly the size of a double AA Maglite, I have a Sure-Fire 9P. It has a prefocused bulb & reflector and is powered by 3 #123 lithium cells. This puppy looks bright in daylight. I think it was the recent Godzilla movie that used a bigger model as "practicals" that were carried by some of the actors. A few episodes of the X-Files have used the same model as I have. Unlike the double AA and double AAA Maglites, the Sure-Fire will not come on by mistake in a bag or pocket. Being one who figures that some toys would only make me less secure in my person, I don't have the handgun mount (flash this in someone's face at night and you will only know if s/he is reaching for something, the light will stun your subject), but I do have the NiCd conversion: a battery pack, a short extension barrel so it will fit, different voltage light, and charger. Not chaep. Not easy to find. Very nice light. -kb, the Kent who has his in the bag he nearly always has with him. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 5 08:58:39 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <3CAD7A3E.28022.30E06278@localhost> Message-ID: > > > Sorry. I had no idea. I've had a "favorite" set to retroarchive > > > for years. I'll have to change it. > > > I made a quick mirror of it a couple of years ago when it looked like it > > might vanish. Since Gaby is doing such a good job, I necer saw fit to > > keep the mirror at retroarchive.org updated. > > Gene, my mail was never ment to put your work down. > No way. We need people who react quickly to save > information. > Oh I never took it that way. I was just explaining _how_ the outdated mirror came into existence. :) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 5 09:01:01 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: CP/M and Imsai In-Reply-To: <62989.62.148.198.97.1017995908.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: > For example, I *still* haven't found that particular "somebody" that > has a copy of the webpage with instruction on how to break Framemakers > NeXT m68k version copy-protection with GDB. Just for instructional uses > of course. After the page was pulled I was able to do it myself (once) > but now I'm just too lazy. And before anyone starts screaming, I've been > trying to buy the program for close to six years now. > It might be stretch, but have you looked on the wayback machine yet? I think the URL is http://www.archive.org g. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 5 09:03:43 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: FA: COMPLETE! HP-86 system including CPM Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020405100343.007d6dc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Located in Canada. Starting price $100 but it sounds worth it. Joe From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 5 09:28:36 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CADC2A4.5060709@internet1.net> Maybe I typed that wrong. I meant 6-32, not 6/32". I assume it's SAE, as they are standard "American" threads. I think it's my only PC class computer that isn't metric. Although, to be perfectly honest. I'm not sure what thread my PS/2's use. Screws aren't as big of an issue, with PS/2's. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Merle K. Peirce wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > >>I do have one big unused server case, made in the US, by Tandy, for >>Grid, for the US Government. It does use 6/32. If I ever do use it >>again, I'll be switching all the screws to "allen" head button type screws. > > > Whitworth, or BSF? > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 09:38:41 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> Message-ID: <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: > > At 01:55 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: > >Crashed computer boots local man into jail: > >http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml > >Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, > >they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, > >put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. > >Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. > > Uhm, thanks! :-) But it was a computer from Gateway! > > - John not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he likes with it, not go to jail. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 5 10:03:28 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020405100250.02d45e28@pc> At 08:38 AM 4/5/2002 -0700, you wrote: >not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he >likes with it, not go to jail. He was only charged with disorderly conduct, not theft or destruction of someone else's property. - John From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 5 10:11:27 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CADCCAF.7030101@internet1.net> Ben Franchuk wrote: > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > likes with it, not go to jail. > But he smashed it, with a sledgehammer, in the lobbey area of a Gateway Country Store :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 10:24:41 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADCCAF.7030101@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CADEBE9.26639.329C692F@localhost> > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > > likes with it, not go to jail. > But he smashed it, with a sledgehammer, in the lobbey area of a Gateway > Country Store :-) Shouldn't this be considered as ecological correct disposal ? -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Apr 5 10:29:21 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Why not read the story, instead? "They jailed him, and he was released later Monday after posting a $150 bond for disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor charge." --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ben Franchuk > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 10:39 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT, but what a relief > > > John Foust wrote: > > > > At 01:55 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: > > >Crashed computer boots local man into jail: > > >http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml > > >Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, > > >they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, > > >put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. > > >Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. > > > > Uhm, thanks! :-) But it was a computer from Gateway! > > > > - John > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > likes with it, not go to jail. > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 5 10:30:14 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADCCAF.7030101@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 5, 02 11:11:27 am Message-ID: <200204051630.LAA28503@wordstock.com> And thusly Chad Fernandez spake: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > > likes with it, not go to jail. > > > > But he smashed it, with a sledgehammer, in the lobbey area of a Gateway > Country Store :-) > I wonder if he had just seen Office Space? ;-) ... Cheers, Bryan From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Apr 5 10:38:01 2002 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADCCAF.7030101@internet1.net> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020405113639.00b20e90@mail.wincom.net> At 11:11 AM 05/04/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Ben Franchuk wrote: >>not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he >>likes with it, not go to jail. > >But he smashed it, with a sledgehammer, in the lobbey area of a Gateway >Country Store :-) > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA Good thing he didn't work over the monitor, they would have nailed him for a terrorist. Cheers Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Apr 5 10:52:46 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <200204050441.g354fVp13889@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 4, 2002 08:41:31 pm" Message-ID: <200204051652.IAA22212@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > I'm becoming convinced that the safest way to preserve software is to > > keep it on a live filesystem that's frequently backed up, using at > > least one type of relatively modern storage media - or at least on > > mylar tape, although that's impractical for large amounts of data (and > > impractical for me because I haven't acquired a tape punch/reader > > yet). Any thoughts on this? > > I've already become convinced the only practical way to preserve it is onto > live filesystems that are regularly backed up. I agree to this. Fortunately the storage capacity of disks is increasing rapidly enough that I am able to keep all the files or disk images that I've ever had with plenty of room for current software. I currently use manual mirroring, since disks are much cheaper than a tape drive. Give it a year (or less) and disks will be less expensive than an equivalent tape, much less a drive. (DLT tapes are $1/GB or so. Big disks with 5 times the capacity are $1.80/GB.) My next semi permanent backup solution will likely be a DVD+RW even though that falls far short of the capacity I would desire. My next step after that is a hot swappable RAID mirror system, swapping a drive a week, with 4 drives in rotation. > found one. My idea is to build a Linux box with EIDE RAID setup to mirror a > couple BIG EIDE disks (80+ Gigabytes). Then have everything else backup to > those disks. I've figured out good ways to backup UNIX (rsync), VMS (BACKUP > to an NFS mounted disk should work), and MacOS (Retrospect can backup via > FTP). What I've not figured out is a way to backup Windows. Windows can mount linux drives via Samba. Just use your favorite windows backup program to back up to a file on the linux machine. I currently back up two of my windows machines to the third in this manner. Eric From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Apr 5 11:07:12 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADEBE9.26639.329C692F@localhost> References: <3CADEBE9.26639.329C692F@localhost> Message-ID: <02Apr5.122819est.119081@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he >> > likes with it, not go to jail. > >> But he smashed it, with a sledgehammer, in the lobbey area of a Gateway >> Country Store :-) > >Shouldn't this be considered as ecological correct disposal ? Serves the Gateway store right that they had to clean up the mess Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 5 02:17:05 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8))" (Apr 4, 23:29) References: <3CAD2812.5050406@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10204050917.ZM27569@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 4, 23:29, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I've read about bolt types on Brit bikes a bit. It seems that they had > a variety of things they called Whitworth. Not really. See Tony's post; there are various series that use the same Whitworth thread form (55 degree thread angle, and rounding of crests and troughs) but they have different names. BSW (British Standard Whitworth) is the standard coarse series, analagous to ANC/UNC. BSF (British Standard Fine) is the corresponding fine-pitch series, analagous to ANF/UNF. There are some special-purpose threads you might have come across, such as BSB (British Standard Brass) which is used for finer pitch on soft metals (26 tpi, regardless of diameter). BSP (BS Pipe) is used for some pipe fittings, and is confusing because the sizes refer to the internal diameters of the high-pressure pipes or glands it would be used for (so 1/4" BSP is a little over 1/2" diameter over the threads). To add insult to injury, there are two types: plain, and tapered. Then there are some ME (Model Engineeer) threads which are very fine pitch, in two standard series: 32 tpi, and 40 tpi. A few of these correspond to normal BSW/BSF/BSB threads, but apart from that, they're relatively rare. Rarer still is British Standard Cycle, a fine pitch thread with a 60 degree thread angle, mostly 26 tpi or 32 tpi (1/8" is 40 tpi, though). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 11:13:54 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Seeking Old Wirth-Jensen Pascal Book In-Reply-To: <002701c1db2b$4171ac90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CADF772.18079.32C97828@localhost> > > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > >>>PASCAL User Manual and Report > > >>>Authors: Jensen & Wirth > > >>>Pub: Springer-Verlag > > >>bookfinder.com throws up multiple copies.... > > > Cool... do you think I can trade some S-100 boards for one? > > Ah, you did not specify that you wanted to trade. > Well, I've got a PTC 2KRO with one or two 1702s in it; > a label indicates some kind of code, probably a boot > ROM for CP/M, but until I dust off the SOL and fire > it up, I've no way to tell (My Needham EPROM burner > doesn't go back that far). I may have a spare copy of that book ... do or do you want the english translation ? :)) > > > What? Bookfinder.com won't do ClassicCmp trades? > > You could always offer. About time we regressed back to a > > barter economy. > Agreed, but the taxman's got his eye on that, too... So from every 14 pin IC they chip away 4 pins ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 5 11:18:36 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178438B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Schaefer [mailto:rschaefe@gcfn.org] > It's a neat little toy. I came across the PCMCIA controller > card for one a > few weeks ago and ended up finding more about the -e than the > card itself. > IIRC the model number is 9533-- put that in the search and > you should end up > with some good hits. I just found > http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/ohland/9533.html in an old msg > to myself. If > it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a good read. Thanks. That was informative. It seems the 387 math-co is "optional," so it's good that I have it. I also think there's some extra RAM in there. (Above the 4M they claim are on the board) Reminds me very much of the intel-based "multia" systems, which are about the same size, and about as well integrated. A related question would be, does anyone know a cheap source of PCMCIA boards? Specifically, to actually use this thing, I'll want an ethernet adaptor (10Mb), and probably some linear flash. Some SRAM that will operate at (is the low voltage 3 or 1.5 on those?) the lower voltage would probably be good too. (where...) Can one still get PCMCIA hard disks that will work in this thing too? I do have a specific and on-topic reason for wanting the flash and SRAM boards. I intend to use the machine as a way of bootstraping a Minix installation for my "Poqet PC," if I can manage it. The Poqet will read linear flash, but not write it, and will read and write SRAM. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Fri Apr 5 03:28:49 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > At 01:55 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: > > >Crashed computer boots local man into jail: > > >http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml > > >Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, > > >they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, > > >put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. > > >Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. > > > > Uhm, thanks! :-) But it was a computer from Gateway! > > > > - John > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > likes with it, not go to jail. I agree, but I guess it's against the law to do this in an impromptu public forum (i.e. the computer shop where he purchased the machine) which is what landed him in trouble. I personally feel that this is a valid form of customer feedback. A bit extreme perhaps, but valid. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 11:34:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: <200204051652.IAA22212@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3CADE041.1A828F73@jetnet.ab.ca> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > > > I'm becoming convinced that the safest way to preserve software is to > > > keep it on a live filesystem that's frequently backed up, using at > > > least one type of relatively modern storage media - or at least on > > > mylar tape, although that's impractical for large amounts of data (and > > > impractical for me because I haven't acquired a tape punch/reader > > > yet). Any thoughts on this? > > > > I've already become convinced the only practical way to preserve it is onto > > live filesystems that are regularly backed up. > > I agree to this. Fortunately the storage capacity of disks is increasing > rapidly enough that I am able to keep all the files or disk images that I've > ever had with plenty of room for current software. I currently use manual > mirroring, since disks are much cheaper than a tape drive. Give it a year > (or less) and disks will be less expensive than an equivalent tape, much > less a drive. (DLT tapes are $1/GB or so. Big disks with 5 times the capacity > are $1.80/GB.) My next semi permanent backup solution will likely be a > DVD+RW even though that falls far short of the capacity I would desire. > My next step after that is a hot swappable RAID mirror system, swapping a > drive a week, with 4 drives in rotation. > > > found one. My idea is to build a Linux box with EIDE RAID setup to mirror a > > couple BIG EIDE disks (80+ Gigabytes). Then have everything else backup to > > those disks. I've figured out good ways to backup UNIX (rsync), VMS (BACKUP > > to an NFS mounted disk should work), and MacOS (Retrospect can backup via > > FTP). What I've not figured out is a way to backup Windows. > > Windows can mount linux drives via Samba. Just use your favorite windows > backup program to back up to a file on the linux machine. I currently back > up two of my windows machines to the third in this manner. > > Eric But I only have ONE machine with windows. Grrrr -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 5 12:11:36 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CADE8D8.7000302@dragonsweb.org> Ben Franchuk wrote: > John Foust wrote: > >>At 01:55 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: >> >>>Crashed computer boots local man into jail: >>>http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml >>>Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, >>>they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, >>>put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. >>>Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. >> >>Uhm, thanks! :-) But it was a computer from Gateway! >> >>- John > > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > likes with it, not go to jail. > I know a couple of girls whose daddy once took his TV out on the front lawn and commenced to blast it to smithereens with one a them thar evul shotguns. Concerned neighbors called the law. When they arrived, he declaimed, "It's my damned TV and I can do what I want with it in my own god-damned $@!%# yard!" Since there was no law prohibiting discharge of fireams in that town at that time, there wasn't much they felt inclined to do about it. At least not with him standing there holding a weapon of mass destruction. Now, Pops is an ornery old cuss, and I've had to fight back the temptation to deck him a time or two, which in retrospect was a mistake, fighting it back, I mean, but he might have spent a night or two in jail, at least, if he had taken the set to a TV station to perform his little exorcism. Especially nowadays. The guy in Wisconsin feels it's worth it, and really all he was doing was expressing himself, maybe in a disconcerting way, but he's getting off light, I think. I'll take that as a good sign. jbdigriz From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 5 12:12:16 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: More "Stuff" References: <3CADEBE9.26639.329C692F@localhost> Message-ID: <3CADE900.F9D1D423@rain.org> In the next several weeks (months?) I'll be paring down the collection of "stuff" that I have no interest in collecting, or I have duplicates of. My tendency is to want to put it on Yahoo with a 3 day auction since evryone would have a chance to see it and decide if they want it. But for right now, I'll just list it here. Everthing is plus shipping/insurance. Generally I prefer to ship via USPS Priority Mail for things that weigh less than 4 pounds since I already have the boxes and it is far easier for me :). For things under 1 pound, Priority Mail is $3.50. $5.00 - Coleco Power Supply for Coleco Vision $5.00 ea - 100 MB SCSI Hard Drives removed from service (approximately 10 left) $5.00 - VTech PreComputer 1000 w/ General Knowledge Cartridge $100.00 - Origins of Digital Computers, Randell. Has papers by Babbage, Zuse, Von Neuman, Aiken, and other pioneers, 2nd Edition, OOP (Out Of Print) $5.00 - TurboGrafx 16 Hucards, "Nerd Blasters" and "R-Type", No way to test them. $5.00 - Odyssey2 w/ power supply, game controls, and "Speedsay, Spin-out, Crypto-logic" cartridge I believe this works, but I haven't tested it to make sure. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 12:16:47 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <3CADE041.1A828F73@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Windows can mount linux drives via Samba. Just use your favorite windows > > backup program to back up to a file on the linux machine. I currently back > > up two of my windows machines to the third in this manner. > > > > Eric > > But I only have ONE machine with windows. Grrrr And this is a problem?! Seriously, I think Eric meant he backs two Windows machines up to one Linux machine. I don't like Windows Backup at all. I tend to go at that backwards; I use smbmount to mount shared Windows drives to the Linux box and back that up with tar. Just don't use the samba smbtar utility. It's a little faster than glacial migration. Doc From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Apr 5 12:33:18 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178438B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178438B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <64846.128.146.70.118.1018031598.squirrel@www.gcfn.org> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Schaefer [mailto:rschaefe@gcfn.org] > >> It's a neat little toy. I came across the PCMCIA controller >> card for one a >> few weeks ago and ended up finding more about the -e than the >> card itself. >> IIRC the model number is 9533-- put that in the search and >> you should end up >> with some good hits. I just found >> http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/ohland/9533.html in an old msg >> to myself. If >> it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a good read. > > Thanks. That was informative. It seems the 387 math-co is > "optional," so it's good that I have it. I also think there's some > extra RAM in there. (Above the 4M they claim are on the board) > > Reminds me very much of the intel-based "multia" systems, which > are about the same size, and about as well integrated. > > A related question would be, does anyone know a cheap source of > PCMCIA boards? Specifically, to actually use this thing, I'll want an > ethernet adaptor (10Mb), and probably some linear flash. Some > SRAM that will operate at (is the low voltage 3 or 1.5 on those?) > the lower voltage would probably be good too. > > (where...) Can one still get PCMCIA hard disks that will work in > this thing too? > > I do have a specific and on-topic reason for wanting the flash and SRAM > boards. I intend to use the machine as a way of bootstraping a Minix > installation for my "Poqet PC," if I can manage it. The > Poqet will read linear flash, but not write it, and will read and > write SRAM. I can't help you much there, but it sounds like a fun project, I hope you can get it working. I noticed there is a dutch auction for 5 (IIRC) of these on epay currently, with an opening bid of $50/ea. Too much for me, but I thought I'd pass it along in case anyone else is looking for 'em. The seller claims to have the PCMCIA controllers as well, for an additional $20/ea. :( Reminds me of the local thrift stores-- keyboard, box, monitor, printer all priced seperately (& the same, usually ~$15-$50 each part, but that's a different rant.) > > Chris Bob > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 5 12:37:33 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: [Way OT] AS/400..... In-Reply-To: <3CADE8D8.7000302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: Is there anyone on the list that could either sell me or give me access to an AS/400? I've got a bunch of folks from my corporate HQ feeding me all sorts of odd little excuses and I want to "see for myself" on an AS/400 with RPG IV(?) installed on it. For instance, they make a big deal about me sending a CSV file to them that has quote marks around the data in each field. What's so bloody hard about stripping quotes off of thanks? Hell I could do that before I could tie my own damn shoes. Please reply by direct mail so others aren't even futher disturbed by my plea. :) g. From kentborg at borg.org Fri Apr 5 12:37:53 2002 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <3CADE041.1A828F73@jetnet.ab.ca>; from bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 10:34:57AM -0700 References: <200204051652.IAA22212@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <3CADE041.1A828F73@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20020405133753.G26790@borg.org> Someone wrote in an earlier message: > My idea is to build a Linux box with EIDE RAID setup to mirror a > couple BIG EIDE disks (80+ Gigabytes). Then have everything else > backup to those disks. I recently built a new Linux box with a pair of 60 GB disks (they were the sweet spot that week) in RAID 1, 256 MB RAM, CR-ROM burner, floppy, 850 MHz Duron, plus rudimentary sound, video, and ethernet on the motherboard. The whole thing, with a power supply, a case, and delivered (though in pieces) was under $600. (I already had a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and UPS.) Pretty nice system. I am typing this e-mail on it now, logged in from work. One ~little~ oopsie I just discovered today is that I accidentally made my /home partition RAID 0 instead of RAID 1...but I think I have figured out all the steps needed to change that. If I find myself wanting more space and 100+ GB drives come down in price, I might figure out how to squeeze 4 more disks into that same box as 300+ GB of RAID 5. (Keeping the RAID 1 because it is bootable.) -kb From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 12:45:22 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Cromemco Docs **free** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe I wasn't explicit enough with my subject line. :) On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > No, I didn't find a Cromemco. I did find, in a box of stuff that I > thought was all Fortune 32:16 stuff, a loose-leaf binder with 200-300 > pages of Cromemco documentation. > It says on the flyleaf: > > This manual was produced on a > Cromemco model 3355 printer > Using the Cromemco Word > Processing System, > > There is: > > Cromemco Fortran IV Instruction Manual - copyright 1977, 1979 > Part 1 Fortran Reference Manual > Part 2 Fortran User's Manual > > Cromemco Macro Assembler Manual > > Cromemco Macro Assembler Manual Addendum - dated January 1980 > > > It's single-sided printing (not great quality), at a quick glance it > seems to be all there, and it's in excellent condition. > Anybody who can use it pays shipping. > > > Doc > From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Apr 5 12:42:16 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020405124216.009f6e00@ubanproductions.com> I have a friend who has a few decks of punch cards that he would like to read. Does anyone have this capability who is willing to do it? Thanks in advance... --tom From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 12:46:06 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CADE8D8.7000302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3CADF0EE.D6018D0A@jetnet.ab.ca> "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > John Foust wrote: > > > >>At 01:55 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: > >> > >>>Crashed computer boots local man into jail: > >>>http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_3204626.shtml > >>>Short story: A shop had five atempts to get a new PC to work, > >>>they still failed, so the man took the computer in a 6th time, > >>>put it on the floor and smashed it with a sledge hammer. > >>>Wisconsin seams to be a place for unusual people. > >> > >>Uhm, thanks! :-) But it was a computer from Gateway! > >> > >>- John > > > > > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > > likes with it, not go to jail. > > > > I know a couple of girls whose daddy once took his TV out on the front > lawn and commenced to blast it to smithereens with one a them thar evul > shotguns. Concerned neighbors called the law. When they arrived, he > declaimed, "It's my damned TV and I can do what I want with it in my own > god-damned $@!%# yard!" Since there was no law prohibiting discharge of > fireams in that town at that time, there wasn't much they felt inclined > to do about it. At least not with him standing there holding a weapon of > mass destruction. Now was the computer under warranty at the time.!? Funny I took a hammer to my VCR ( At home ) since I said "give me my tape back or else". It did not listen too well, but I did get my tape OUT. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 12:52:33 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E In-Reply-To: <64846.128.146.70.118.1018031598.squirrel@www.gcfn.org> Message-ID: <20020405185233.80734.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert F Schaefer wrote: > > A related question would be, does anyone know a cheap source of > > PCMCIA boards? I pick them up at hamfests, etc. I won't pay more than $5/10BaseT ethernet card w/o dongle, but I still have more cards than dongles. > > Specifically, to actually use this thing, I'll want an > > ethernet adaptor (10Mb), and probably some linear flash. Linear FLASH? You mean unlike the ATA cards for cameras? The two kinds of PCMCIA memory cards I'm aware of have two completely different drivers - the cards like you use with an Apple Newton are strictly memory devices. Digital Camera-style ATA FLASH cards look like a disk drive to the OS. Those are common, plentiful and cheap (I picked up some 16Mb cards recently in a sale for $10 each). > > Some SRAM that will operate at (is the low voltage 3 or 1.5 on those?) > > the lower voltage would probably be good too. This is old... I'm pretty sure the PCMCIA is 5V only. > > (where...) Can one still get PCMCIA hard disks that will work in > > this thing too? IBM has things like the "MicroDrive", but modern PCMCIA disks tend to specifically be "CompactFlash Type III" - you can get CF->PCMCIA adapters cheap, but you'll probably have to alter them mechanically to provide clearance for the HDA of a MicroDrive. I do not know the physical height off the top of my head, but the PS-2/E card is "quad type-I, dual type-II" - meaning that if you found an old PCMCIA hard disk that was Type-III, you'd have a mechanical interference problem. Dunno about MicroDrives. > > I do have a specific and on-topic reason for wanting the flash and SRAM > > boards. I intend to use the machine as a way of bootstraping a Minix > > installation for my "Poqet PC," if I can manage it. The > > Poqet will read linear flash, but not write it, and will read and > > write SRAM. There's nothing this board can do that a Linux laptop with PCMCIA slots couldn't also do. It's not magical, just cool. You can also pick up a PCM "Swap Box" for typically under $50 that puts a single Type-II/dual Type-I PCMCIA socket in your ISA-equipped desktop. I've used one under Win95 and Linux to dump CF cards. > I noticed there is a dutch auction for 5 (IIRC) of these on epay > currently, with an opening bid of $50/ea. Ow! Way overpriced. I personally value them at between $10 and $20 for the CPU, plus another $5-$10 for the PCMCIA card, only because they are interesting. Form-factor aside, they are a 16MB 50MHz 386/486. Nothing spectacular. The only thing that makes them interesting is size. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 12:51:03 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: Message-ID: <3CADF217.FC1CC0A2@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > > Windows can mount linux drives via Samba. Just use your favorite windows > > > backup program to back up to a file on the linux machine. I currently back > > > up two of my windows machines to the third in this manner. > > > > > > Eric > > > > But I only have ONE machine with windows. Grrrr > > And this is a problem?! Seriously, I think Eric meant he backs two > Windows machines up to one Linux machine. > I don't like Windows Backup at all. I tend to go at that backwards; I > use smbmount to mount shared Windows drives to the Linux box and back > that up with tar. Just don't use the samba smbtar utility. It's a > little faster than glacial migration. > > I meant I don't have a LINUX box. Just %$%! windows. When I did use linux, I tend to tar the whole HD to a zip disk. This way if I needed to change HD's it was easy. But alas Linux (debian) does not boot from floppies any more, thus rendering it almost as useless as M$. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 5 12:54:17 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:05 2005 Subject: [Way OT] AS/400..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > about stripping quotes off of thanks? Hell I could do that before I could *sigh* thanks --> strings. From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 5 12:54:38 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784393@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert F Schaefer [mailto:rschaefe@gcfn.org] > I noticed there is a dutch auction for 5 (IIRC) of these on > epay currently, > with an opening bid of $50/ea. Too much for me, but I > thought I'd pass it > along in case anyone else is looking for 'em. The seller > claims to have > the PCMCIA controllers as well, for an additional $20/ea. :( I suppose $Here_I_can't_think_of_anything_to_do_with_this_and_might_end_up_trashing_it is a bargain, then. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 5 12:58:59 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAE1013.29902.3329AB7A@localhost> > > > Something like the CMU Free6809 board would be great, but I'd > > > prefer to add a CRT coltroller to get a video display. I'd > > > also want a keyboard interface so that the machine could > > > be independent of a terminal. Maybe even a disk interface > > > of some sort, and the AY-3-8910 sound chip, and a parallel > > > port, and... Oh dear, now I'm making it too complicated! > > My SWTP/c contains a third-party board called "the communicator" with a 6845 > > CRTC. Complexity is low : 6845, 2K sram, character generator and around 10 TTL > > IC's. It produces a standard 80x25 output. > > The same board also contains a 6821 to interface to a parallel ouput keyboard. > > The floppy interface of the SWTPc is also rather simple. Speaking of 6800 components: Does anybody still have a 6829 datasheet ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 12:59:28 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief Message-ID: <001701c1dcd4$0311cc00$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I know a couple of girls whose daddy once took his TV out on the front > lawn and commenced to blast it to smithereens with one a them thar evul > shotguns. Concerned neighbors called the law. When they arrived, he > declaimed, "It's my damned TV and I can do what I want with it in my own > god-damned $@!%# yard!" Since there was no law prohibiting discharge of > fireams in that town at that time, there wasn't much they felt inclined > to do about it. My freshman year in college, I took a double-bladed axe to a 1971 Vega that failed to get me to what might have been the date of dates... it had developed a case of milkshake lubrication (i.e. water leaked into oil)... this after putting a new head gasket on it. Clarksville still lacks am axe ordinance... ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 13:06:33 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: <15533.17833.740648.732205@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20020405190633.58129.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 5, Gooijen H wrote: > > I have the oppertunity to drag 2 RM03 massbus drives and > > some packs back home. > > A.K.A. CDC 9762 with a Massbus<->SMD adapter in the bottom.... Sort of. I worked for a DEC reseller in the summer of 1998. He picked up a couple of RM03s cheap and wanted to hook them to one of our PDP-11s through some Emulex or similar SMD interface. The idea was to pull the cables out of the adapter, run them into the Emulex card, and turn an RM03 back into a 9762. The quick answer was we were unable to make it work. We even borrowed some cards from a real 9762 and swapped them into the card cage in the RM03 (the one near the positioner magnet). It didn't help. DEC must have made some change outside of ECOs to the cards that made the drive only work with their Massbus converter. > If you have the space, grab 'em! :-) Agreed. I know that I've been asked for RM03s from folks with KS10s and the like. All of my SMD drives are Fujitsu Eagles and the like. I could _use_ an RM03 if I wanted to, but I'd rather use a lighter, less rare disk than that these days, except for demonstration purposes. If you don't grab them now, you'll probably never see another one later. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 13:08:29 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CADC2A4.5060709@internet1.net> Message-ID: > >>I do have one big unused server case, made in the US, by Tandy, for > >>Grid, for the US Government. It does use 6/32. If I ever do use it > >>again, I'll be switching all the screws to "allen" head button type screws. > > > > Whitworth, or BSF? A tough choice. But to help keep it global, at least have them made up to take a metric Allen wrench. But Allen is so boring. There are so many more interesting heads available, such as tri-wing, triple-square, etc. And how about using left-handed threads? That will give pause to those who would consider going into the case. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 13:20:05 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: [Way OT] AS/400..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Gene Buckle wrote: > Is there anyone on the list that could either sell me or give me access to > an AS/400? Gene, there are a couple of AS/400 in the warehouse where I work. They are the older beige deskside boxes, they look intact, and I can get you the model #s next week. My boss there is a little weird about pricing, so they may run from $.12 to $.50 per pound, depending on his mood. I'm guessing that would top out at a possible $80 or so, plus shipping. There's a box of documentation there that he'll probably throw in. I know nothing at all about AS/400 and don't want to learn, so it's a grab bag from your end. I can and will see if they'll boot to a console if you can provide startup (and shutdown) instructions. I'll run whatever diags are accessible. If you're interested, I'd need you to arrange shipping _before_ I pick it/them up from the shop. I don't mind dealing with it, but I'm totally out of room to store it. Drag that you have to buy equipment and learn an OS just to call your "colleagues" on their crap. Doc From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 13:22:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: PS/2-E and Linux In-Reply-To: <20020405190633.58129.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020405192201.36426.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Since it's come up as a thread and since I ran across the link again, anyone who wants to do real work with a PS-2/E might want to visit here - http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/ps2elinx.htm -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Apr 5 13:26:02 2002 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <3CAE1013.29902.3329AB7A@localhost> References: <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405122530.02168290@mail.azstarnet.com> At 08:58 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: >Speaking of 6800 components: > >Does anybody still have a 6829 datasheet ? I think I've got one somewhere, but I was never able to actually FIND a 6829. GZ From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Apr 5 13:26:52 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <20020405133753.G26790@borg.org> Message-ID: No one seems to be addressing the issue that RAID is well and fine to guard against hardware failure, but it will do *nothing* for file system corruption. And even journalling systems like EXT2 and Reiser-FS don't protect against a 'rm -rf *' as root accidently done. From my perspective, there are two types of backups, working and historical. Historical backups should be cut to involatile media. Paper tape (low density, low availability), and CDROM/DVD. CDROMs may delaminate in 100 years, but they're not going to be erase near a magnetic field, are *far* more reliable than any tapes I've ever used (not to mention portable, in terms of filesystems, namely ISO-9660), and reasonable cheap. Downside, of course, is only ~700MB per disc. CDROM drives will be around for a while. Sure, the same was said for QIC-40 tapes, I'm sure, but we're *aware* that we have historical data on CDROM, and as such, a CDROM drive sits on the shelf for future use. DVD drives have much higher density, but cost more. At this point, I might argue the point that media doesn't seem to be quite as portable as CDROM, but I have far less experience with DVDs. Working backups are the current state of your system. They're not designed to be recovered from in 20 years. They're the tapes you make every night/week/month to gaurd against short term file deletes, hardware crashes, and moving to newer/faster/higher density media (like that new 160GB Maxtor we've all been coveting). I don't trust tapes. Never have. *Every* tape system I've ever used in the last 20 years has, at some point or another, generated a tape that can't be read. Be that bad tape design (QIC tapes), poor tape quality, questionable drives, exposure to magnetic fields, whatever, I've had tapes I can't read. And a tape I can't read might as well be a tape I never wrote. One of my favorite and more cost effective ways to backup is to Ghost or 'dd' copy the drive to an identical device, then take that device out of service. Once a week, I copy my 40GB Maxtor to another 40GB Maxtor. Not perfect, since I usually don't take the 2nd drive off-premises, but since I work where I live (or live where I work, depending on how you look at it), it doesn't get a lot of chance to travel. That's my fault. 40GB of infinitely reusable backup media (for medium sized values of infinite) for < $100 isn't bad. That's the same as 5 DVD platters, and it won't wear out anywhere near as quick. Everyone has a favorite backup scheme. At least, for those people that actually *do* backups. These are just my opinions on a method that has worked well for me. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Kent Borg > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 13:38 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) > > > Someone wrote in an earlier message: > > My idea is to build a Linux box with EIDE RAID setup to mirror a > > couple BIG EIDE disks (80+ Gigabytes). Then have everything else > > backup to those disks. > > I recently built a new Linux box with a pair of 60 GB disks (they were > the sweet spot that week) in RAID 1, 256 MB RAM, CR-ROM burner, floppy, > 850 MHz Duron, plus rudimentary sound, video, and ethernet on the > motherboard. > > The whole thing, with a power supply, a case, and delivered (though in > pieces) was under $600. (I already had a monitor, keyboard, mouse, > and UPS.) Pretty nice system. I am typing this e-mail on it now, > logged in from work. > > One ~little~ oopsie I just discovered today is that I accidentally > made my /home partition RAID 0 instead of RAID 1...but I think I have > figured out all the steps needed to change that. > > If I find myself wanting more space and 100+ GB drives come down in > price, I might figure out how to squeeze 4 more disks into that same > box as 300+ GB of RAID 5. (Keeping the RAID 1 because it is > bootable.) > > -kb From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 13:31:06 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <3CADF217.FC1CC0A2@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > I meant I don't have a LINUX box. Just %$%! windows. When I did use > linux, > I tend to tar the whole HD to a zip disk. This way if I needed to change > HD's > it was easy. But alas Linux (debian) does not boot from floppies any > more, thus rendering it almost as useless as M$. Huh!?!? I beg to disagree, sir. It boots off a LOT of floppies. Six, on x86. ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stable/main/disks-i386/current although I prefer woody myself: ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/current Plus, AFAIK, Deb is the only one left that allows install and upgrade by modem. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 13:31:39 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, John Chris Wren wrote: > Why not read the story, instead? Because my web-browser is not on the same machine as my e-mail. Netscrape/Internet Exploiter seem to want at least 386, and Lynx doesn't handle frames and the rest of the modern crap very well. > > not reading the story ... if he paid for the computer is his to what he > > likes with it, not go to jail. There could be a few more factors, such as where he smashed it, if not on his own property, and whether any of the store staff were holding the machine when he smashed it, etc. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 5 13:35:23 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CADE8D8.7000302@dragonsweb.org> <3CADF0EE.D6018D0A@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CADFC7B.4080205@dragonsweb.org> Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > Now was the computer under warranty at the time.!? > Funny I took a hammer to my VCR ( At home ) since I said "give me my > tape back > or else". It did not listen too well, but I did get my tape OUT. > I don't think it is anymore, unless Gateway wants to take advantage of the opportunity to offset bad PR. The TV was working fine. It was working only too well, as far as Pops was concerned. :-) I know the feeling. jbdigriz From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 5 13:36:47 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784395@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > > > Specifically, to actually use this thing, I'll want an > > > ethernet adaptor (10Mb), and probably some linear flash. > Linear FLASH? You mean unlike the ATA cards for cameras? The two > kinds of PCMCIA memory cards I'm aware of have two completely > different Now you've made me go and look it up ;) >From the Poqet PC FAQ: http://bmason.best.vwh.net/PoqetPC/faq.html What kind of Flash cards can I used in the Poqet PC? There are two kinds of flash cards. The Poqet PC can read from, but not write to, "linear" flash cards (sometimes called "Intel" flash) cards. These flash cards must be formatted and programmed with the "pseudo-floppy" format on another computer, and then they function as ROM disks in the Poqet PC. "SanDisk" flash cards, named after the company that produces them (SanDisk corporation was known as "SunDisk" until mid 1995), are commonly available for other palmtop computers like the HP 95/100/ 200LX. SanDisk flash cards cannot be used in the Poqet PC. ------ In other words, yes... "linear" flash. :) > drivers - the cards like you use with an Apple Newton are strictly > memory devices. Digital Camera-style ATA FLASH cards look like a > disk drive to the OS. Those are common, plentiful and cheap (I > picked up some 16Mb cards recently in a sale for $10 each). Last I checked, the price per MB on linear flash was just slightly higher than the more common stuff. (I think) > > > Some SRAM that will operate at (is the low voltage 3 or > 1.5 on those?) > > > the lower voltage would probably be good too. > This is old... I'm pretty sure the PCMCIA is 5V only. Again from the FAQ: What kind of PCMCIA cards can I use in my Poqet PC? The PCMCIA slots in the Poqet PC actually predate the PCMCIA specification. The slots are generally compatible with Revision 1.0 of the PCMCIA spec. The Poqet's PCMCIA slots have a Type I (2.5 mm) thickness. Generally, the only thing that can be put into the Poqet PC are SRAM cards, which can be formatted on the Poqet PC for use as RAM disks. The Poqet PC does not read the Card Information Structure (CIS) on SRAM cards to determine the proper format, but instead uses a uses a "pseudo-floppy" format. Generally cards formatted on a Poqet PC can be read by other computers, but cards formatted on other computers may have to be reformatted before being used on the Poqet PC. To work in the Poqet PC, SRAM cards must be PCMCIA Revision 1.0 compatible and must be able to operate at 3 volts. As far as memory cards are concerned, however, there isn't much difference between PCMCIA 2.0 and 1.0, so Rev. 2.0 memory cards should work fine. The 3 volt requirement arises because, as the alkaline batteries in the Poqet PC die, the system voltage can dip down to the 3 volt level. If your PCMCIA cards operate only at 5 volts, then you could lose data as your batteries die. One thing to remember is that all SRAM cards will retain data at 3 volts. To work in the Poqet PC, the SRAM cards must operate (read and write data) at 3 volts. ----- 3 volts, definitely. > IBM has things like the "MicroDrive", but modern PCMCIA disks tend > to specifically be "CompactFlash Type III" - you can get CF->PCMCIA > adapters cheap, but you'll probably have to alter them mechanically > to provide clearance for the HDA of a MicroDrive. I do not know > the physical height off the top of my head, but the PS-2/E card is > "quad type-I, dual type-II" - meaning that if you found an old > PCMCIA hard disk that was Type-III, you'd have a mechanical > interference > problem. Dunno about MicroDrives. Actually, I was just looking for some older "type 2" PCMCIA disks, perhaps used. > There's nothing this board can do that a Linux laptop with PCMCIA > slots couldn't also do. It's not magical, just cool. You can also True, but Linux didn't like my laptop much last I tried, nor did NetBSD. Right now it's running Eth's "PC Native Oberon," and is perfectly happy, but I don't think Oberon will drive its PCMCIA slots, and I don't have much breathing room on that system anyway, even though the full install of Oberon is probably smaller than that of DOS on the same system. > pick up a PCM "Swap Box" for typically under $50 that puts a single > Type-II/dual Type-I PCMCIA socket in your ISA-equipped desktop. I've > used one under Win95 and Linux to dump CF cards. Ok, but since this system has just fallen into my lap, why not use it? :) > Nothing spectacular. The only thing that makes them interesting is > size. Again, similar to the Multia in that respect. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 13:40:15 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I agree, but I guess it's against the law to do this in an impromptu > public forum (i.e. the computer shop where he purchased the machine) which > is what landed him in trouble. A number of years ago, a guy burned a cardboard sculpture on the sidewalk in front of the whitehouse. The cops arrested him for "arson", and a representative (my brother) from the US attorney's office had to explain to them that it did NOT qualify as "arson" and that they'd have to figure out a different charge. > I personally feel that this is a valid form of customer feedback. A bit > extreme perhaps, but valid. for Gateway, maybe not extreme enough From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 13:40:42 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? Message-ID: <001f01c1dcd9$ceaf1840$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I have a friend who has a few decks of punch cards that he would > like to read. Does anyone have this capability who is willing to > do it? I don't think he's subbed to the list, but if Paul Pierce can read 7-track tapes (he can), I'm betting he can read unit records, too: http://www.piercefuller.com/collect hth, -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 13:43:15 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: "Re: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8)" Message-ID: <002701c1dcda$2a86c0a0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Speaking of 6800 components: > > Does anybody still have a 6829 datasheet ? When I get home, I'll see if I can scrape enough mold off of it to read it... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 13:47:41 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Cromemco Docs **free** In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Works everytime. The docs have been claimed. On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > Maybe I wasn't explicit enough with my subject line. :) > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > No, I didn't find a Cromemco. I did find, in a box of stuff that I > > thought was all Fortune 32:16 stuff, a loose-leaf binder with 200-300 > > pages of Cromemco documentation. > > It says on the flyleaf: > > > > This manual was produced on a > > Cromemco model 3355 printer > > Using the Cromemco Word > > Processing System, > > > > There is: > > > > Cromemco Fortran IV Instruction Manual - copyright 1977, 1979 > > Part 1 Fortran Reference Manual > > Part 2 Fortran User's Manual > > > > Cromemco Macro Assembler Manual > > > > Cromemco Macro Assembler Manual Addendum - dated January 1980 > > > > > > It's single-sided printing (not great quality), at a quick glance it > > seems to be all there, and it's in excellent condition. > > Anybody who can use it pays shipping. > > > > > > Doc > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 13:49:54 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: [Way OT] AS/400..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Drat. That was supposed to be off-list. Sorry, y'all. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 13:56:39 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <3CADF217.FC1CC0A2@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > I meant I don't have a LINUX box. Just %$%! windows. When I did use > linux, > I tend to tar the whole HD to a zip disk. This way if I needed to change > HD's > it was easy. But alas Linux (debian) does not boot from floppies any > more, thus rendering it almost as useless as M$. Rereading this, I may have misunderstood yet again. Did you mean you want the entire OS on a floppy? Have you tried Tom's RootBoot? It's an amazingly complete distribution on one floppy. Then there are several CD-based distros.... Doc From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 5 14:07:31 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <001701c1dcd4$0311cc00$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAE0403.7080009@dragonsweb.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >>I know a couple of girls whose daddy once took his TV out on the front >>lawn and commenced to blast it to smithereens with one a them thar evul >>shotguns. Concerned neighbors called the law. When they arrived, he >>declaimed, "It's my damned TV and I can do what I want with it in my own >>god-damned $@!%# yard!" Since there was no law prohibiting discharge of >>fireams in that town at that time, there wasn't much they felt inclined >>to do about it. > > > My freshman year in college, I took a double-bladed axe to a > 1971 Vega that failed to get me to what might have been the > date of dates... it had developed a case of milkshake lubrication > (i.e. water leaked into oil)... this after putting a new head > gasket on it. > > Clarksville still lacks am axe ordinance... ;) > > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > Axe, eh? Funny you should mention that. Speaking of malicious gossip. Let's just say if you come between sisters and wake up the ol' green-eyed monster, be prepared for the consequences. You might as well enjoy yourself while you can, though, cause you're sure as hell gonna pay for it, whether you do or not. All this car talk keeps reminding me I need to fix my truck so I can haul old computers and stuff. 77' Dodge with a 318, worn cam bushings, maybe bent camshaft. Timing jumps all over the place, even with new distributor, chain, and gears. Bottom end is tight, and compression is good, but I think I'll go through it completely anyway. jbdigriz From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Apr 5 14:08:14 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: This all depends on which model Poqet you have. The information on Brian's site applies to the first two models, the "Classic" (PQ-0164) and the "Prime" (PQ-0181). The last model, the "Plus", _can_ use SanDisk Flash cards up to at least 110MB. See http://www.olagrande.net/~webguy/service/poqet.html#Useful. It can also handle certain PCMCIA modems, which the Classic and Prime cannot. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 1:37 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: PS/2 - E > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > > > Specifically, to actually use this thing, I'll want an > > > ethernet adaptor (10Mb), and probably some linear flash. > Linear FLASH? You mean unlike the ATA cards for cameras? The two > kinds of PCMCIA memory cards I'm aware of have two completely > different Now you've made me go and look it up ;) >From the Poqet PC FAQ: http://bmason.best.vwh.net/PoqetPC/faq.html What kind of Flash cards can I used in the Poqet PC? There are two kinds of flash cards. The Poqet PC can read from, but not write to, "linear" flash cards (sometimes called "Intel" flash) cards. These flash cards must be formatted and programmed with the "pseudo-floppy" format on another computer, and then they function as ROM disks in the Poqet PC. "SanDisk" flash cards, named after the company that produces them (SanDisk corporation was known as "SunDisk" until mid 1995), are commonly available for other palmtop computers like the HP 95/100/ 200LX. SanDisk flash cards cannot be used in the Poqet PC. ------ In other words, yes... "linear" flash. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 14:10:29 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: Message-ID: <3CAE04B5.D70D1CBE@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc wrote: > I beg to disagree, sir. It boots off a LOT of floppies. Six, on x86. > > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stable/main/disks-i386/current > > although I prefer woody myself: > > ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/woody/main/disks-i386/current > > Plus, AFAIK, Deb is the only one left that allows install and upgrade > by modem. > No It is the recovery disk ( Stupid name ) that is the problem. I used debian 2.0 for my system maintenance. I could shell to a command line and maintain the system. The stupid thing is NOBODY has tar on the system disk. The one thing about dos and few other OS's is that you could use a floppy to maintain the system even if you had a hard drive. I really wish linux was as easy to add drivers as msdos was. I really think computer arctecture is going a step backwards as you have no control over your data, it seems to be owned by M$ or the hardware companies! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 5 14:14:54 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CADE8D8.7000302@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3CAE05BE.20805@internet1.net> A gun isn't exactly a weapon of mass destruction.... it's pretty localized. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA James B. DiGriz wrote: > At least not with him standing there holding a weapon of > mass destruction. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Apr 5 16:09:04 2002 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Someone need a copy of Jensen-Wirth? Message-ID: <20020405.140905.-226035.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> A copy of the 2nd Ed just fell into my lap. LMK if anyone needs this. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 5 14:32:50 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014677FA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <5.0.0.25.0.20020405071106.02352198@pc> <3CADC501.CD69C3C6@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CADE8D8.7000302@dragonsweb.org> <3CAE05BE.20805@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CAE09F2.9070901@dragonsweb.org> Chad Fernandez wrote: > A gun isn't exactly a weapon of mass destruction.... it's pretty localized. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > James B. DiGriz wrote: > >> At least not with him standing there holding a weapon of mass >> destruction. > > > I felt maybe ol' "molten iron" Erlacher would appreciate the hyperbole. :-) jbdigriz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 14:44:47 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: Message-ID: <3CAE0CBF.8F38B397@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > I meant I don't have a LINUX box. Just %$%! windows. When I did use > > linux, > > I tend to tar the whole HD to a zip disk. This way if I needed to change > > HD's > > it was easy. But alas Linux (debian) does not boot from floppies any > > more, thus rendering it almost as useless as M$. > > Rereading this, I may have misunderstood yet again. Did you mean you > want the entire OS on a floppy? > Have you tried Tom's RootBoot? It's an amazingly complete > distribution on one floppy. > Then there are several CD-based distros.... > > Doc No ! I want to back my windows system. I don't want CRAP to do simple things like 1) backup my system 2) replace hardware 3) process information. 4) Play games. see OS/9 for how to write a real OS. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 14:48:10 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? In-Reply-To: <001f01c1dcd9$ceaf1840$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >> I have a friend who has a few decks of punch cards that he would >> like to read. Does anyone have this capability who is willing to >> do it? > >I don't think he's subbed to the list, but if Paul Pierce >can read 7-track tapes (he can), I'm betting he can read >unit records, too: > > >http://www.piercefuller.com/collect I know Jim Willing could before he moved to Kansas. Paul Pierce definitly has card readers, but I don't know if he's setup to read decks, I assume he is. I'm a little shocked to hear he can read 7-Track tapes though. I've got a reader, I just don't have an interface. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 5 14:57:13 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 References: <200204042037.VAA06791@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <3CAE0FA9.2010405@dragonsweb.org> Stan Barr wrote: > > It wouldn't surprise me. Manchester University were early pioneers in > semiconducer applications. Ferranti were closely associated with them, > and Ferranti were heavily involved in military and aviation work. > > See: http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/biganalog.html > I found that link the other day, and I'm trying to figure out how the machine worked. I'm thinking the "synthetic gimbals" are used to generate a resultant (hydraulic pressure, it looks like) from aerodynamic forces on wings and control surfaces simulated by multiple hydraulic circuits. The electronics would basically be mediating controls and switchgear for the pumps, and not do any computation proper, or at least not arithmetical computation. I could be wrong, in fact I could be way off base, and I welcome correction, but this is actually appears to be a mechanical, or hydraulic, analog computer. Still very impressive. > Ferranti were limited to convential alloy drift germanium transistors as > they couldn't persuade anyone to manufacture ones designed for digital > use. The Atlas used OC170s, which were designed for radio use, running > at 10MHz IIRC. Floating point multiply in 4.97 microseconds which was > pretty quick at the time! > > I dismantled a Ferranti board circa 1962/3 to recover the transistors... > wish I'd kept the board now ;-( > Somewhere around here I have the remains of a GE intercom kit from that era (62/63) with some of their first general purpose (I think) germanium transistors. jbdigriz From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 15:04:27 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp Transportation Message-ID: <000701c1dce5$796d9210$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > All this car talk keeps reminding me I need to fix my truck so I can > haul old computers and stuff. 77' Dodge with a 318, worn cam bushings, > maybe bent camshaft. Timing jumps all over the place, even with new > distributor, chain, and gears. Bottom end is tight, and compression is > good, but I think I'll go through it completely anyway. Good segue back on topic... What's the least expensive, semi-reliable transportation for hauling Classic Computers? What I mean is, something that might be a tad flaky starting up, but once running, is unlikely to suffer mechanical failure in places where your license plates might as well be from a foreign country? Clearly, my Audi 80 sedan is useless except for the occasional Apple //e or somesuch teeney weeney computers. I used to have a 64 Chevy pickup, should still have it. Is such transport possible for circa US$750.00? -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 5 15:18:16 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178439B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Feldman, Robert [mailto:Robert_Feldman@jdedwards.com] > This all depends on which model Poqet you have. The > information on Brian's > site applies to the first two models, the "Classic" (PQ-0164) and the > "Prime" (PQ-0181). The last model, the "Plus", _can_ use > SanDisk Flash cards > up to at least 110MB. See > http://www.olagrande.net/~webguy/service/poqet.html#Useful. > It can also > handle certain PCMCIA modems, which the Classic and Prime cannot. Right. Mine is a "Classic." Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Apr 5 15:21:21 2002 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: have Rl01, want RK05 Message-ID: <200204052121.PAA00284@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Subject sums it up. I have a RL01 drive, I need a RK05 drive, and I dont have space for both. If anyone plans on being in the Minneapolis region someday and wants to make a swap, just let me know. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Apr 5 15:29:55 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp Transportation Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146780A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > > What's the least expensive, semi-reliable transportation for > hauling Classic Computers? > > What I mean is, something that might be a tad flaky starting > up, but once running, is unlikely to suffer mechanical > failure in places where your license plates might as well be > from a foreign country? > > Clearly, my Audi 80 sedan is useless except for the occasional > Apple //e or somesuch teeney weeney computers. > > I used to have a 64 Chevy pickup, should still have it. > > Is such transport possible for circa US$750.00? > > -dq > -- I would say a decent cheap transport would be any older 2 wheel drive Chevy pick-up. Either the S-10 or full-size C-10 (hint: the C series is 2WD The K's are 4WD). They're a dime a dozen, and well built too. You should be able to find at least 12 of each in any decent size vehicle bone-yard. Not to mention the fact that you can get cheap lumber to build a rack body for the back if you need to... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 5 06:25:29 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:47:03 -0800." <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Loboyko Steve said: > I have a paper tape punch that does Mylar. too bad the > density is so low and the cost of Mylar is so high! I > too worry about preserving this type of history. I've > been playing with my PDP-8 and its software, and I > wonder what the oldest existing program that actually > runs might be... Don't know about PDP-8 programs, but a copy of a program to print squares, by M.V.Wilkes, May 1949 is available for the EDSAC emulator...could this be the oldest surviving computer program? (Of course, the operating sustem - or Initial Orders as it was known - is older.) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 5 15:32:50 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp Transportation In-Reply-To: <000701c1dce5$796d9210$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > What's the least expensive, semi-reliable transportation for > hauling Classic Computers? > > What I mean is, something that might be a tad flaky starting > up, but once running, is unlikely to suffer mechanical > failure in places where your license plates might as well be > from a foreign country? Well, my little brother, after trying for years to kill it off, has promised me his '91 Ford F150. It's a straight-6 standard, is about to wear out the second clutch, has stranded him once when the drive shaft split at the weld (he'd known it was bent for a month, aka "his own damn fault") in '96. He takes very good care of it, but has never had the valve covers off. The kicker? It's on its fourth trip around the odometer. 329,000+ miles, and I wouldn't hesitate to take off for Anchorage in it. Plus, it's on-topic. Price - free to me. Probably worth $600-$800 in Texas. As they say, Your Mileage May Vary. Doc From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 5 15:35:47 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp Transportation References: <000701c1dce5$796d9210$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAE18B3.7010807@dragonsweb.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >>All this car talk keeps reminding me I need to fix my truck so I can >>haul old computers and stuff. 77' Dodge with a 318, worn cam bushings, >>maybe bent camshaft. Timing jumps all over the place, even with new >>distributor, chain, and gears. Bottom end is tight, and compression is >>good, but I think I'll go through it completely anyway. > > > Good segue back on topic... > > What's the least expensive, semi-reliable transportation for > hauling Classic Computers? > > What I mean is, something that might be a tad flaky starting > up, but once running, is unlikely to suffer mechanical > failure in places where your license plates might as well be > from a foreign country? > > Clearly, my Audi 80 sedan is useless except for the occasional > Apple //e or somesuch teeney weeney computers. > > I used to have a 64 Chevy pickup, should still have it. > > Is such transport possible for circa US$750.00? > > -dq > > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > If you're transporting large, rack-mounted equipment or pallet-loads with any frequency, I'd say go with about a 20' box van with a lift-gate. 2nd choice would be something like an old bread truck, aka UPS truck. Be sure to carry a ramp. You're not likely to find something like that for $750 that doesn't need work, but what else is new? The hassles and time a vehicle like this will save translate into dollars. jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 5 15:49:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) References: <3CA899C9.12359887@jetnet.ab.ca> <4.3.2.7.2.20020405122530.02168290@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <003001c1dceb$ba3a6920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's a datasheet in this databook I've been using to level the table. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 12:26 PM Subject: Re: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) > At 08:58 PM 4/5/2002 +0200, you wrote: > >Speaking of 6800 components: > > > >Does anybody still have a 6829 datasheet ? > > I think I've got one somewhere, but I was never able to actually > FIND a 6829. > > GZ > > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Apr 5 15:49:42 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Free for shipping costs: 2 Localtalk ISA cards Message-ID: Brand new (brand old?) in box w/software 2 Farallon ISA bus local talk cards (1990) They have (If the picture on the box is correct) 1 6502 1 Z8530 1 8kx8 RAM 1 ROM in socket + ISA bus interface and Appletalk diff drv/rec Peter Wallace From jhking at airmail.net Fri Apr 5 15:55:44 2002 From: jhking at airmail.net (Jason King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: GEM-OS References: <200204050731.g357V3f65751@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3CAE1D5F.F0812A87@airmail.net> > > > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:36:04 -0800 (PST) > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: GEM OS was: CP/M and Imsai > > > I've asked this before, but how close is the Commodore GEOS to the Gem > > one ? The desktop at least is virtually identical. > > I don't think it is, myself. Berkeley Softworks supposedly modeled it on the > Macintosh. > > > Does it have an underlying > > system greatly different from TOS and AES(?) ? > > Not knowing much about the internals of TOS ... > In Geos the whole OS was coded in 6502 assembler. Couldn't make an 8bit gui work with slowpokes like C. GEM and TOS (as I understand) were partly host assembler (8088 or 68000) and part c. No commonality under the hood at all. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 15:56:37 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: Re: should I take RM03's ? (Ethan Dicks) References: <15533.17833.740648.732205@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020405190633.58129.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15534.7573.275483.364100@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 5, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > A.K.A. CDC 9762 with a Massbus<->SMD adapter in the bottom.... > > Sort of. I worked for a DEC reseller in the summer of 1998. He > picked up a couple of RM03s cheap and wanted to hook them to one > of our PDP-11s through some Emulex or similar SMD interface. The > idea was to pull the cables out of the adapter, run them into the > Emulex card, and turn an RM03 back into a 9762. > > The quick answer was we were unable to make it work. We even borrowed > some cards from a real 9762 and swapped them into the card cage in the > RM03 (the one near the positioner magnet). It didn't help. > > DEC must have made some change outside of ECOs to the cards that > made the drive only work with their Massbus converter. Weird...I dunno about the RM03, but I ran an RM02 on a Dataram Qbus SMD controller (I don't recall the model number) many years ago in an 11/73. It worked fine. I thought the only big difference between the RM02 and the RM03 was the spindle speed, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Apr 5 16:23:50 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local>; from stanb@dial.pipex.com on Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:25:29PM +0100 References: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:25:29PM +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > Don't know about PDP-8 programs, but a copy of a program > to print squares, by M.V.Wilkes, May 1949 is available > for the EDSAC emulator...could this be the oldest surviving > computer program? (Of course, the operating sustem - or > Initial Orders as it was known - is older.) I thought the squares program was lost and had to be reconstructed. Also, I'd call the Initial Orders more of an assembler/loader than an OS, since it didn't incldue any subroutines you could use for things like I/O. Eventually they added a library of I/O and math subroutines, some utilities (mostly for debugging), and a fancier version of the Initial Orders that allowed you to decide at load time where subroutines should go. But you still had to decide what subroutines to use and copy them to your input tape. The tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses) program is undoubtedly one of the oldest computer games. -- Derek From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 5 16:31:55 2002 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: GEM-OS References: <200204050731.g357V3f65751@ns2.ezwind.net> <3CAE1D5F.F0812A87@airmail.net> Message-ID: <000b01c1dcf1$b3228ea0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed for the Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super Cartridge format. Designed by Reevesoft. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason King" To: Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:55 PM Subject: GEM-OS > > > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:36:04 -0800 (PST) > > From: Cameron Kaiser > > Subject: Re: GEM OS was: CP/M and Imsai > > > > > I've asked this before, but how close is the Commodore GEOS to the Gem > > > one ? The desktop at least is virtually identical. > > > > I don't think it is, myself. Berkeley Softworks supposedly modeled it on the > > Macintosh. > > > > > Does it have an underlying > > > system greatly different from TOS and AES(?) ? > > > > Not knowing much about the internals of TOS ... > > > > In Geos the whole OS was coded in 6502 assembler. Couldn't make an 8bit gui work with slowpokes like C. > GEM and TOS (as I understand) were partly host assembler (8088 or 68000) and part c. No commonality > under the hood at all. > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 5 17:27:55 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? Message-ID: <20020405152416.X39742-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Somewhat recently, Zane Healy replied: >>> I have a friend who has a few decks of punch cards that he would >>> like to read. Does anyone have this capability who is willing to >>> do it? >> >>I don't think he's subbed to the list, but if Paul Pierce >>can read 7-track tapes (he can), I'm betting he can read >>unit records, too: >> >>http://www.piercefuller.com/collect > >I know Jim Willing could before he moved to Kansas. What? Did I fall off the earth? Yes, I can still read card decks. >Paul Pierce >definitly has card readers, but I don't know if he's setup to read decks, >I assume he is. I'm a little shocked to hear he can read 7-Track tapes >though. Why shocked? Paul has some really cool gear! >I've got a reader, I just don't have an interface. > > Zane -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Apr 5 18:03:41 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? In-Reply-To: <20020405152416.X39742-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020405180341.00a39100@ubanproductions.com> Jim, Great! If I send the decks to you would you read them in and return them, etc? I will of course pay for shipping, etc. --tnx --tom At 03:27 PM 4/5/02 -0800, you wrote: > >Somewhat recently, Zane Healy replied: > >>>> I have a friend who has a few decks of punch cards that he would >>>> like to read. Does anyone have this capability who is willing to >>>> do it? >>> >>>I don't think he's subbed to the list, but if Paul Pierce >>>can read 7-track tapes (he can), I'm betting he can read >>>unit records, too: >>> >>>http://www.piercefuller.com/collect >> >>I know Jim Willing could before he moved to Kansas. > >What? Did I fall off the earth? Yes, I can still read card decks. > >>Paul Pierce >>definitly has card readers, but I don't know if he's setup to read decks, >>I assume he is. I'm a little shocked to hear he can read 7-Track tapes >>though. > >Why shocked? Paul has some really cool gear! > >>I've got a reader, I just don't have an interface. >> >> Zane > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 5 18:09:05 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <000b01c1dcf1$b3228ea0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Apr 5, 02 05:31:55 pm Message-ID: <200204060009.TAA20898@wordstock.com> And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed for > the Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super Cartridge > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available for the PC? (Other then name) Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:26:07 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020404222249.00f90b64@pop1.epm.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Apr 4, 2 10:22:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/97d35ef4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:45:07 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: from "William R. Buckley" at Apr 4, 2 11:31:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/4884d7b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:48:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: <3CAD8DE9.113FD0F6@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Apr 5, 2 12:43:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/b859b209/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:53:17 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CADF0EE.D6018D0A@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 5, 2 11:46:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/4202057c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:55:26 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: 6809 single board computer (was: "New" PDP-8) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405122530.02168290@mail.azstarnet.com> from "Gordon Zaft" at Apr 5, 2 12:26:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/38e6c517/attachment.ksh From ccraft at springsips.com Fri Apr 5 18:24:15 2002 From: ccraft at springsips.com (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:06 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp Transportation In-Reply-To: <000701c1dce5$796d9210$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> References: <000701c1dce5$796d9210$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020406002413.D9A0A611C5@mamacass.springsips.com> So close to being On Topic... I used my '86 Dodge Ram 150 Prospector (old enough) with lift gate to transport a VAX 4000/500 (will be on topic this June! :) 45 miles from its previous home to mine. Aside from having the a/c compressor freeze up and toss belts all over amid clouds of smoke and needing to fix a leaky power steering pump, it's a good truck, 'specially because of the lift gate. (318 - V8 power is nice, too.) I paid a bit more than $750 for it, though. :) -Chris, RetroComputing(Transportation) Nut. PS: Would the fellow who offered a CD of CP/M stuff please send me his address again, off-list? Thanks! On Friday 05 April 2002 14:04, you wrote: > > All this car talk keeps reminding me I need to fix my truck so I can > > haul old computers and stuff. 77' Dodge with a 318, worn cam bushings, > > maybe bent camshaft. Timing jumps all over the place, even with new > > distributor, chain, and gears. Bottom end is tight, and compression is > > good, but I think I'll go through it completely anyway. > > Good segue back on topic... > > What's the least expensive, semi-reliable transportation for > hauling Classic Computers? > > What I mean is, something that might be a tad flaky starting > up, but once running, is unlikely to suffer mechanical > failure in places where your license plates might as well be > from a foreign country? > > Clearly, my Audi 80 sedan is useless except for the occasional > Apple //e or somesuch teeney weeney computers. > > I used to have a 64 Chevy pickup, should still have it. > > Is such transport possible for circa US$750.00? > > -dq > > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me > "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to > reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom > Waits From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Apr 5 08:29:53 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: sort of OT: lawsuit against an email list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02Apr5.200211est.119113@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> It doesn't have to do with classic computers, but certainly impacts the list in general....here's a link to an article about a $15million lawsuit against members of an email list: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/04/04/aquatic_plants/index.html Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 18:43:22 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? In-Reply-To: <20020405152416.X39742-100000@agora.rdrop.com> from "James Willing" at Apr 05, 2002 03:27:55 PM Message-ID: <200204060043.g360hMP27395@shell1.aracnet.com> > >I know Jim Willing could before he moved to Kansas. > > What? Did I fall off the earth? Yes, I can still read card decks. You mean you didn't fall off the earth? I wasn't sure if you'd have the equipement accessable or setup. > >I assume he is. I'm a little shocked to hear he can read 7-Track tapes > >though. > > Why shocked? Paul has some really cool gear! I'd heard being able to read 7-Track's was a lost art. Zane From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Apr 5 18:52:41 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986^H^H56 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > I dismantled a Ferranti board circa 1962/3 to recover the transistors... >> > wish I'd kept the board now ;-( >> >> Likewise, I dismantled a Leo board in about 1975 to recover several >> GET111 germanium transistors. I still have the board and the >> transistors. > >Somewhere (safe) I have a board from a Ferranti computer. I've not traced >out the circuitry, but it's pretty simple (a few gates or maybe a >flip-flop). I should try to find it. It's not as old but I've got a small Univac board from the early 70's. It's installed in some sort of testing rig with a 24pin ribbon cable going to a 40pin dual-row header connector. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 5 18:54:07 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <10204050917.ZM27569@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Peter, could you address how Acme threads fit into these schemes? I should expect that they are always relatively coarse. On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 4, 23:29, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I've read about bolt types on Brit bikes a bit. It seems that they had > > a variety of things they called Whitworth. > > Not really. See Tony's post; there are various series that use the same > Whitworth thread form (55 degree thread angle, and rounding of crests and > troughs) but they have different names. BSW (British Standard Whitworth) > is the standard coarse series, analagous to ANC/UNC. BSF (British Standard > Fine) is the corresponding fine-pitch series, analagous to ANF/UNF. > > There are some special-purpose threads you might have come across, such as > BSB (British Standard Brass) which is used for finer pitch on soft metals > (26 tpi, regardless of diameter). BSP (BS Pipe) is used for some pipe > fittings, and is confusing because the sizes refer to the internal > diameters of the high-pressure pipes or glands it would be used for (so > 1/4" BSP is a little over 1/2" diameter over the threads). To add insult > to injury, there are two types: plain, and tapered. Then there are some ME > (Model Engineeer) threads which are very fine pitch, in two standard > series: 32 tpi, and 40 tpi. A few of these correspond to normal > BSW/BSF/BSB threads, but apart from that, they're relatively rare. Rarer > still is British Standard Cycle, a fine pitch thread with a 60 degree > thread angle, mostly 26 tpi or 32 tpi (1/8" is 40 tpi, though). > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Apr 5 18:54:28 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: [OT] Dave McGuire... Message-ID: <00c001c1dd05$9c02f8e0$ae469280@y5f3q8> Haven't heard from you or Brian-- do you need me to pick up that IBM? Let me know. Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 19:09:36 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: [OT] Dave McGuire... In-Reply-To: [OT] Dave McGuire... (Robert Schaefer) References: <00c001c1dd05$9c02f8e0$ae469280@y5f3q8> Message-ID: <15534.19152.466026.187603@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 5, Robert Schaefer wrote: > Haven't heard from you or Brian-- do you need me to pick up that IBM? Let > me know. Been hacking on a time-dependent project and on a weird sleep schedule, sorry man...will reply to your other email in a moment. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 5 19:24:18 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: <3CAE05BE.20805@internet1.net> Message-ID: Depends on the gun. 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > A gun isn't exactly a weapon of mass destruction.... it's pretty localized. > > At least not with him standing there holding a weapon of > > mass destruction. From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 5 20:22:55 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties Message-ID: <000701c1dd11$f6612a30$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> There are a number of denial-of-service attacks under way on ther Internet all the time, but we're in a wave of heavy attacks right now. Once by one, DNS servers are getting hijacked, and as a result, domains are evaporating into the ether. Sometimes, one person can get through to another for a while because their domain remains cached somewhere along the route. But eventually, you get cut off. When it happend to us last week, our ISP tracked down the hijacking machine, which itself had been hijacked, and managed to well, it has a cold, shall we say? Nice to have an ISP with good Kung Fu... ;) In the meantime, list members might volunteer to get word through to some member that some other particular member might not be able to reach. And there are these things called telephones, too... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Apr 5 20:37:26 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: ADM3a Keyboard Photo Needed Message-ID: Just dusted off an ADM3a, and it's intact except for a key centered between the arrow keys on the right-hand side, which is missing the top. I'm also not certain that all of the other keys are in the right positions. Can someone take a couple of close-up digital photos of the keyboard and e-mail them to me? Or maybe scan a manual page that shows the keyboard layout? I may try to modify a spare PC keyboard keytop to replace the missing one, if the colors are close (or I can paint it to match). Thanks! -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Apr 5 20:37:58 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? Message-ID: <9rnsaugegvt681t1qonctnqt7glltj7ef9@4ax.com> Anyone know what became of Doug Yowza who used to be on this list? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 20:32:54 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Special debugging techniques (was RE: Shoddy Hardware) In-Reply-To: Re: Special debugging techniques (was RE: Shoddy Hardware) (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) References: <20020402211931.37239.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15534.24150.855664.403048@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 2, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Doesn't anybody use a rubber chicken anymore? Sure, but not for debugging. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Apr 5 21:19:02 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: ADM3a Keyboard Photo Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually, it's an ADM3A+ (plus)... On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 20:37:26 -0600, you wrote: >Just dusted off an ADM3a, and it's intact except for a key centered >between the arrow keys on the right-hand side, which is missing the >top. I'm also not certain that all of the other keys are in the right >positions. Can someone take a couple of close-up digital photos of >the keyboard and e-mail them to me? Or maybe scan a manual page that >shows the keyboard layout? I may try to modify a spare PC keyboard >keytop to replace the missing one, if the colors are close (or I can >paint it to match). Thanks! > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with > Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Apr 5 21:35:36 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: DEC swap meet?(RE: Off Topic? PDP 11 1134/1145's) In-Reply-To: <20020404041045.34933.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020405223501.00a6dca0@mail.njd.concentric.com> I like the Philadelphia area (I'm in Delaware) -- who was the poster who mentioned Philly? -- Tony At 08:10 PM 4/3/2002 -0800, you wrote: >--- Lord Isildur wrote: > > i'd think. > > as for pittsburgh, it is too far west i think. > >Probably too far west for you East Coasters, but I can get there in a >few hours myself. I could even score a place to crash and make a weekend >out of it. > >So... if Pittsbutgh is ever an option, I'll probably be able to show up. > >-ethan > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From aek at spies.com Fri Apr 5 22:11:09 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? Message-ID: <200204060411.UAA02206@spies.com> > I'd heard being able to read 7-Track's was a lost art. The problem is finding a drive with a 7 track head. The stuff has been out of production for 30 years and people stopped making 7 track head stacks a LONG time ago. I've been looking for one for a couple of years now. Heck, I'd be happy just to find a 7 track head stack.. I'm still kicking myself for missing the 7-track TU10 that was on eBay a couple years ago. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 22:19:39 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) References: Message-ID: <3CAE775B.5725867C@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > to drive this on topic, how many of you fell for the hp67c > > april fool's joke at the hp calculator museum? I did, for a few > > ecstatic seconds, and then felt _rather_ heartbroken... > > I was darn sure it was a hoax from the start (no sane person these days > would use LED displays in a handheld calculator). But it was remarkably > convincing. > > And yes, I am sorry it was a hoax. I'd probably have bought one... > > -tony Bring back the Nixie Tube Display ... That and real keyboard makes using a calculator a joy. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 22:24:37 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief References: Message-ID: <3CAE7885.959316AC@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Funny I took a hammer to my VCR ( At home ) since I said "give me my > > tape back > > or else". It did not listen too well, but I did get my tape OUT. > > I've always found removing the VCR's cover and twiddling the loading arm > drive and cassette holder (basket) drive to be a quicker and easier way > of getting the tape out, with less risk of damage to the tape (and to the > VCR for that matter). > > -tony I have had the cover off for over a year fiddling with that mechanism. Anyway I gave it to somebody I know who repairs old vcr's for parts. I got a DVD for the new stuff. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Apr 5 22:01:04 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? In-Reply-To: <9rnsaugegvt681t1qonctnqt7glltj7ef9@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > Anyone know what became of Doug Yowza who used to be on this list? Hey, Bill. He sold yowza.com to a now-defunct porn monger, dropped the Yowza pseudonym, and moved to an island where he still lurks on mailing lists and hoards his precious old computers :-) Cheers, Doug From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Apr 5 22:51:46 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? References: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DC2@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Message-ID: <3CAE7EE2.2050401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Gooijen H wrote: > Hi all. > > I need some advise. > In 3 weeks time Edward and I drive to Italy (some 1100 km) > to pick up several PDP-11/70 parts. > I have the oppertunity to drag 2 RM03 massbus drives and > some packs back home. ... > Are they worth preserving? Or should I leave them where they are? > Next to the 11/70 is looks great (IMHO) but I would love to hear > some opinions from other collectors. Absolutely! A nice collection really needs one of those drives that look like top-loader laundry washers and have drums as big as those. I just passed on one RP07 because it only was the size of an American laundry washer but not a removable drum. I think the RM03 comes closest to my romantic image of that top-loader. I probably will never have one, but will stick to RA60s (I just love RA disks and only need a 7x and a 60 to have the complete series 60, 81, 82, 90, 92, 7x.) I already know where the RA60 will go. Top-loader removables are just great and if you have a truck and drive 1100 km for other stuff, by all means take them too!!! -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Apr 5 23:09:32 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password References: Message-ID: <3CAE830C.4060504@aurora.regenstrief.org> Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: >>On Mon, Apr 01, 2002 at 07:47:52PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: >> >> >>>Easiest way is to attach the drive to a comparable machine running >>>a Ultrix that you know the password too. Mount it, edit /etc/passwd, >>>umount it, and re-install. >>> >>Netboot NetBSD, mount, edit, ... >>NetBSD should be able to handle the 4.2BSD FFS of Ultrix. >>At least it is worth a try if booting the Ultix/VAX to single >>user mode don't work. I don't think you can write to an UFS from NetBSD. At least with FreeBSD I can read but not write. But the easiest way to recover lost unix passwords is to boot in single user mode and then change password the normal way. Consult your VAX manual for the boot parameters for single user mode. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 5 23:19:08 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Video Card Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get an IBM RS/6000 POWER GXT1000 Model 002 video card? Peace... Sridhar From hansp at aconit.org Fri Apr 5 23:29:03 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: can anyone read some punch cards? References: <3.0.5.32.20020405124216.009f6e00@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3CAE879F.5090706@aconit.org> Tom Uban wrote: > I have a friend who has a few decks of punch cards that he would > like to read. Does anyone have this capability who is willing to > do it? You don't say where you are located but ACONIT in Grenoble France has that capability. -- HBP From hansp at aconit.org Fri Apr 5 23:39:05 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3CAE89F9.7020701@aconit.org> Derek Peschel wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:25:29PM +0100, Stan Barr wrote: >>Don't know about PDP-8 programs, but a copy of a program >>to print squares, by M.V.Wilkes, May 1949 is available >>for the EDSAC emulator...could this be the oldest surviving >>computer program? (Of course, the operating sustem - or >>Initial Orders as it was known - is older.) > I thought the squares program was lost and had to be reconstructed. You may be thinking of the first program run at Manchester in 1948, although a notebook survives with a listing of that program it is dated some weeks later. The original authors of the program reconstructed it from that listing and their recollections. This was done for the 50th anniversary celebrations in 1998. More details for the curious at http://www.computer50.org/ Since the manchester machine is considered (by some) to be the first electronic stored program digital computer, then the first program to run on it must, by definition, be the oldest - no? -- hbp From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 5 23:38:21 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties References: <000701c1dd11$f6612a30$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CAE89CD.30406@internet1.net> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > And there are these things called telephones, too... Isn't that the old device you have to unplug to get to hook up a modem? :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 00:09:01 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Anyone know where I can get an IBM RS/6000 POWER GXT1000 Model 002 video > card? > > Peace... Sridhar Do you have the GXT1000 display hardware? Doc From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Apr 6 00:20:05 2002 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties In-Reply-To: <000701c1dd11$f6612a30$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020405231939.038a9598@pop.azstarnet.com> At 09:22 PM 4/5/2002 -0500, you wrote: >In the meantime, list members might volunteer to >get word through to some member that some other >particular member might not be able to reach. > >And there are these things called telephones, too... See, if we had that ClassicCmp UUCP network, we'd be set. Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com http://www.zaft.org/gordon From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 6 01:31:25 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: "Merle K. Peirce" "Re: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8))" (Apr 5, 19:54) References: Message-ID: <10204060831.ZM28460@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 5, 19:54, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Peter, could you address how Acme threads fit into these schemes? I > should expect that they are always relatively coarse. In a sense, they don't. They're not normally used for fasteners, which is what the others are for (arguably with the exception of BSP) :-) Yes, they're usually fairly coarse, and used for things like leadscrews on machine tools and vise jaws. For leadscrews, they're usually made to some specific pitch that equates to some nice decimal number of turns per inch, or millimetres per turn. They're also unusual in having large flats on both the crests and troughs (most other threads are rounded on one or the other); in fact they're almost square -- the thread depth is 0.5 x the pitch, and the walls slope at only 14.5 degrees, so the included angle is 29 degree, much less than most threads which are typically either 55 or 60 degrees. And the clearance between screw and nut is very small, typically 0.001". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 01:39:47 2002 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? References: <15533.17833.740648.732205@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020405190633.58129.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> <15534.7573.275483.364100@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CAEA643.D8626C00@xs4all.nl> Dave McGuire wrote: > snip snip > > I thought the only big difference between the RM02 and the RM03 was > the spindle speed, though. Not entirely according to my copy of the systems & options summary guide. The RM02 canbe used with any PDP except the 11/70, while the RM03 is only for the 11/70, as it has a massbus interface. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Apr 6 02:26:30 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Apr 2002 14:23:50 -0800." <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <200204060826.JAA19989@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Derek Peschel said: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:25:29PM +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > > > Don't know about PDP-8 programs, but a copy of a program > > to print squares, by M.V.Wilkes, May 1949 is available > > for the EDSAC emulator...could this be the oldest surviving > > computer program? (Of course, the operating sustem - or > > Initial Orders as it was known - is older.) > > I thought the squares program was lost and had to be reconstructed. I was quoting from the listing. However reading the docs for the emulator it says: "It should be emphasiszed that these programs - like almost all of the routines supplied with the Edsac emulator - have not been rewritten, but are historical artifacts. They have been sitting in the original conference proceedings since 1949." > > Also, I'd call the Initial Orders more of an assembler/loader > than an OS, since it didn't incldue any subroutines you could use > for things like I/O. Eventually they added a library of I/O and > math subroutines, some utilities (mostly for debugging), and a > fancier version of the Initial Orders that allowed you to decide > at load time where subroutines should go. But you still had to > decide what subroutines to use and copy them to your input tape. > Yor're right, of course... > The tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses) program is undoubtedly > one of the oldest computer games. > -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 03:30:27 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? In-Reply-To: Re: should I take RM03's ? (The Wanderer) References: <15533.17833.740648.732205@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020405190633.58129.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> <15534.7573.275483.364100@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CAEA643.D8626C00@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <15534.49203.935010.260838@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 6, The Wanderer wrote: > > I thought the only big difference between the RM02 and the RM03 was > > the spindle speed, though. > > Not entirely according to my copy of the systems & options summary > guide. > The RM02 canbe used with any PDP except the 11/70, while the RM03 is > only for the 11/70, as it has a massbus interface. Wait a minute...ALL RM02/03/05 drives are massbus. It is my (old and possibly erroneous) understanding that the RM03 was sold with the 11/70 in particular because it had a faster spindle speed, and as such, transferred data more quickly. What, specifically, does that Systmes & Options guide say about these drives? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 6 05:05:25 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > Anyone know where I can get an IBM RS/6000 POWER GXT1000 Model 002 video > > card? > > Do you have the GXT1000 display hardware? No, I need the box and everything, not just the interface. Peace... Sridhar From at258 at osfn.org Sat Apr 6 07:00:41 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <10204060831.ZM28460@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Thank you Peter, it was the pitch that interested me. I once used an Acme threaded spring hanger for a writing assignment. While it sounds very simple, describing one of the little buggers makes you stop and think. On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 5, 19:54, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > Peter, could you address how Acme threads fit into these schemes? I > > should expect that they are always relatively coarse. > > In a sense, they don't. They're not normally used for fasteners, which is > what the others are for (arguably with the exception of BSP) :-) > > Yes, they're usually fairly coarse, and used for things like leadscrews on > machine tools and vise jaws. For leadscrews, they're usually made to some > specific pitch that equates to some nice decimal number of turns per inch, > or millimetres per turn. They're also unusual in having large flats on > both the crests and troughs (most other threads are rounded on one or the > other); in fact they're almost square -- the thread depth is 0.5 x the > pitch, and the walls slope at only 14.5 degrees, so the included angle is > 29 degree, much less than most threads which are typically either 55 or 60 > degrees. And the clearance between screw and nut is very small, typically > 0.001". > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 07:28:57 2002 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? References: <15533.17833.740648.732205@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020405190633.58129.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> <15534.7573.275483.364100@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CAEA643.D8626C00@xs4all.nl> <15534.49203.935010.260838@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CAEF819.65DC1D5F@xs4all.nl> Well, the guide says the following: RJM02-AA(AD) : RM02 disk drive and controller to interface to the PDP-11 UNIBUS RWM03-AA(AD) : Single-ported RM03 disk drive and controller to interface to the PDP-11/70 MASSBUS. The description of both is almost the same, but it explicitly mentions UNIBUS in the RM02 text and MASSBUS in the RM03 text. Oddly, the RM02 is not using the RH11 (Massbus interface for Unibus), but is using the RJM02 drive interface on the Unibus. If the latter is Massbus, why then having 2 different interfaces? A DEC quirk? In any case, Henk and I may reconsider using a different type of transportation to get the 2 machines and 2 or 3 drives back home..... Ed Dave McGuire wrote: > > On April 6, The Wanderer wrote: > > > I thought the only big difference between the RM02 and the RM03 was > > > the spindle speed, though. > > > > Not entirely according to my copy of the systems & options summary > > guide. > > The RM02 canbe used with any PDP except the 11/70, while the RM03 is > > only for the 11/70, as it has a massbus interface. > > Wait a minute...ALL RM02/03/05 drives are massbus. It is my (old and > possibly erroneous) understanding that the RM03 was sold with the > 11/70 in particular because it had a faster spindle speed, and as > such, transferred data more quickly. > > What, specifically, does that Systmes & Options guide say about > these drives? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, > St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From bill at timeguy.com Sat Apr 6 08:49:32 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020406084519.P68905-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Oh. Well, if you see him, tell him that the 8008 chip he sent me several years ago (which spent most of its life with me sitting on my PC keyboard in a chip carrier, and moved houses with me once) is alive and well and happily running the Mark-8 replica I just built. I hope all the salt air isn't corroding his computers...! ;-) (Hi Doug!) On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Doug Salot wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > > > Anyone know what became of Doug Yowza who used to be on this list? > > Hey, Bill. He sold yowza.com to a now-defunct porn monger, dropped the > Yowza pseudonym, and moved to an island where he still lurks on mailing > lists and hoards his precious old computers :-) > > Cheers, > Doug > > From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 6 08:59:52 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) References: Message-ID: <005001c1dd7b$b55d6fc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > how many of you fell for the hp67c ? Is a link still available? John A. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Apr 6 09:31:44 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: ADM3a Keyboard Photo Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020406103144.014cc808@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bill Richman may have mentioned these words: >Actually, it's an ADM3A+ (plus)... [snippage] Is the keyboard similar enough to an ADM31 to be helpful to you? And if so, is 5 megapixel good enough quality? (;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 6 09:54:40 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties In-Reply-To: <3CAE89CD.30406@internet1.net> Message-ID: > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > And there are these things called telephones, too... On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Isn't that the old device you have to unplug to get to hook up a modem? :-) Unplug? D'ya mean the red, green, black, and yellow wires held on by screws? (8x32?) It's the device for connecting the modem. First lift up the detachable corded part (called the "handset"), and listen for "dial tone". Then turn the large rotary dial the appropriate number of times. When you hear the "carrier tone", place the handset into the cups of the acoustic coupler. From hansp at aconit.org Sat Apr 6 10:23:39 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) References: <005001c1dd7b$b55d6fc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3CAF210B.6010209@aconit.org> John Allain wrote: >>how many of you fell for the hp67c ? > Is a link still available? This page contains the link to the original spoof: http://www.hp.com:calculators-product-id+ACU-3D67cx+AEA-209.197.117.170/item/product.htm -- hbp From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Sat Apr 6 10:26:45 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 Message-ID: In a project I'm thinking about starting this summer, I want to try and re-create a PDP-11 (or maybe a -8 or something) using either SSI logic and/or PAL/GALs. I would like to do the entire thing in SSI, but I fear that I'd quickly eat up a lot of money on the project, so where necessary I'd replace sections with PALs. Anyone have any good ideas? About what I'm doing: Trying to replicate an 'old-computer feel' for a mock airport that a friend of mine is thinking about making. I'll have a good amount of time to work on designing it before I start laying down copper on a circuit board. I'd like to make something that 1) looks authentically old and 2) has a design I can (semi-legally, not for resale) copy so I don't have to do all the re-design work myself. I've considered just using a plain-old Apple //e that I have, but that wouldn't be 'old enough' looking I was thinking. It'll need to have a good amount of I/O, and be easy enough that I can actually build it and understand how to program it without much effort. By that way, I don't care about using 'standard OS's' or 'standard hardware' too much, I just want to put together a system with a CPU, serial port, and some sort of floppy drive interface (I prefer 5-1/4 disks at some PC readable format) it can boot off of - or perhaps an IDE interface as that would be easy to program a 'driver' for (or so I'm told). Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should try to build? Eg. what model PDP-11 cpu card, what prints I should get to try and assemble a basic working system, etc. Should I try something else? I would like to go a bit overboard, the look is a part of the thing, but I don't want to screw with finding things like QBUS drivers, and don't think I'll want to bother with a 'traditional mini-computer bus' if I don't need to. This is what I have so far: 1) CPU card 2) Memory - SRAM 3) Front-panel switches 4) Console serial port 5) A few digital I/O ports 6) Floppy interface (anyone suggest an easy to interface controller?) 7) IDE controller -- Pat From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Apr 6 10:39:01 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: 7 Track Tapes... Message-ID: <20020406083515.F69527-100000@agora.rdrop.com> Zane commented... >> >I'm a little shocked to hear he (Paul Pierce) can read 7-Track tapes >> >though. >> >> Why shocked? Paul has some really cool gear! > >I'd heard being able to read 7-Track's was a lost art. But isn't that what we're all about? Preservation of the 'lost arts'? ;^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw When's the last time you decompiled Z-80 code? For me it was last week! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 11:13:32 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> <3CAE89F9.7020701@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CAF2CBC.E094286C@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Derek Peschel wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 01:25:29PM +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > > >>Don't know about PDP-8 programs, but a copy of a program > >>to print squares, by M.V.Wilkes, May 1949 is available > >>for the EDSAC emulator...could this be the oldest surviving > >>computer program? (Of course, the operating sustem - or > >>Initial Orders as it was known - is older.) > > > I thought the squares program was lost and had to be reconstructed. > > You may be thinking of the first program run at Manchester in 1948, > although a notebook survives with a listing of that program it is dated > some weeks later. The original authors of the program reconstructed it > from that listing and their recollections. This was done for the 50th > anniversary celebrations in 1998. More details for the curious at > http://www.computer50.org/ > > Since the manchester machine is considered (by some) to be the first > electronic stored program digital computer, then the first program to > run on it must, by definition, be the oldest - no? > I think there was a few algorithmic notes , almost a program for babbage's mill. Since one has a Babbage emulator ( http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html ) and some hardware built in the 1990's is the mill the first or last? historical computer built? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From thomas at tstrathmann.de Sat Apr 6 11:15:08 2002 From: thomas at tstrathmann.de (Thomas Strathmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020406171508.GA22420@adams> pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: [Building some mock PDP computer] If you want something which is very easily programmable, then go for a PDP-8. I had no problem learning how to code a few useful programs in PDP-8 assembler using some documents from the web. You shoudl have a look at what this guy did. It is very similar to what you are trying to do if I read you correctly. http://www.spies.com/~dgc/ Thomas -- Thomas S. Strathmann http://pdp7.org If God had intended Man to Smoke, He would have set him on Fire. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 11:39:22 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 References: Message-ID: <3CAF32CA.7CCA1230@jetnet.ab.ca> pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > In a project I'm thinking about starting this summer, I want to try and > re-create a PDP-11 (or maybe a -8 or something) using either SSI logic > and/or PAL/GALs. I would like to do the entire thing in SSI, but I fear > that I'd quickly eat up a lot of money on the project, so where necessary > I'd replace sections with PALs. Anyone have any good ideas? (snip) > 1) CPU card > 2) Memory - SRAM > 3) Front-panel switches > 4) Console serial port > 5) A few digital I/O ports > 6) Floppy interface (anyone suggest an easy to interface controller?) > 7) IDE controller Barring #7 can I sell you the nice 12/24 bit FPGA cpu I homebrewing. :) The PDP-11 is way too complex for SSI logic. A reduced PDP-8 style cpu would be possible with SSI logic. While not true SSI logic modern EEPROMS would be very useful for control logic. Byte magazine had a few TTL designed cpu's. Stack based languages like Forth are easy to do in TTL. I would have done my FPGA computer in TTL but nowadays you can't find the 74LS chips I needed anymore like 74ls382 4-bit alu. One other option is 2901 bit slice parts. B.G.Micro seems to have a few in stock. If I were to redesign I would use 2901 bit slice parts and EEPROMS for control now that I know where to find 2901's. A floppy disk controller interface is fairly simple but you need a fast CPU for the disk if some sort of DMA is not used. That is why my FPGA computer is not quite finished , I am squeezing in DMA for HD floppies. Also the front panel logic needs a bit of work too. If you really want to be authentic don't forget to add Refresh logic on the CPU for DRAM. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 11:49:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Apr 5, 2 07:54:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/6bf60013/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 12:02:22 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) In-Reply-To: <3CAE775B.5725867C@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 5, 2 09:19:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/26f882b6/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 12:07:08 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Re: recreating the PDP-11 (Ben Franchuk) References: <3CAF32CA.7CCA1230@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15535.14668.967127.425026@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 6, Ben Franchuk wrote: > The PDP-11 is way too complex for SSI logic. DEC did it. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 12:08:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties In-Reply-To: <3CAE89CD.30406@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 6, 2 00:38:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/c2b92811/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sat Apr 6 04:12:16 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: OT, but what a relief In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Because my web-browser is not on the same machine as my e-mail. > Netscrape/Internet Exploiter seem to want at least 386, and Lynx doesn't > handle frames and the rest of the modern crap very well. Find and download w3m instead of lynx. It works MUCH better (and handles frames!) You can also try "links" (not as good as w3m in my opinion but it has some strong points). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sat Apr 6 04:15:43 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) In-Reply-To: <3CAF210B.6010209@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Hans B Pufal wrote: > John Allain wrote: > >>how many of you fell for the hp67c ? > > > Is a link still available? > > This page contains the link to the original spoof: > > http://www.hp.com:calculators-product-id+ACU-3D67cx+AEA-209.197.117.170/item/product.htm ^^^^ ^^^^ No it doesn't because you have those funky escape characters that seem to pop up from time to time in various listmembers' messages. :( Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 12:41:33 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Peter, could you address how Acme threads fit into these schemes? I > > should expect that they are always relatively coarse. Should I toss buttress threads in? Or the whole family of oilfield tool joint technology? Those are threaded pipe couplings meant to be torqued to 50,000 ft/lb and more. You oughta see the pipe-wrench.... Doc From rdd at rddavis.org Sat Apr 6 13:14:39 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Acoustic Couplers (was: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties) In-Reply-To: References: <3CAE89CD.30406@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20020406191438.GA8015@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Fred Cisin (XenoSoft), from writings of Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:54:40AM -0800: > Then turn the large rotary dial the appropriate number of times. When you > hear the "carrier tone", place the handset into the cups of the acoustic > coupler. This reminds me, these acoustic couplers may need some periodic maintenance, such as putting some talcum powder on the rubber pieces that hold the telephone handset. Some time ago I read about this being a good way to preserve the rubber weatherstripping around car windows (e.g., the 1970s Fords that didn't have frames around the windows), now, I wish that I'd done that years ago. However, I was thinking that it would just wash off when it rained and didn't do it, and replacement weather seals now appear impossible to find. Now then, I suspect that the replacement parts for these acoustic couplers would be even more difficult to locate. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 13:03:37 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 References: <3CAF32CA.7CCA1230@jetnet.ab.ca> <15535.14668.967127.425026@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CAF4689.6E789F38@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On April 6, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > The PDP-11 is way too complex for SSI logic. > > DEC did it. :) True -- but remember all but the first PDP-11's were microcoded logic. Even then that is a lot of control logic. The PDP-11 was a big BOX. The current CPU I am working has 46 states. Assuming a average of 4 gates per state (like a 7400) that's 46 chips Just FOR STATE decoding not counting other control logic assuming random logic is used for control.Lets not forget the Alu section too, the PDP-11 had the full range of alu ops not ADD,AND like the PDP-8 and the 11 has 8 registers too that could be set via the front panel. --- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 13:05:56 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:07 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) References: Message-ID: <3CAF4714.7A4FC56D@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc wrote: > Should I toss buttress threads in? Or the whole family of oilfield > tool joint technology? Those are threaded pipe couplings meant to be > torqued to 50,000 ft/lb and more. You oughta see the pipe-wrench.... > > Doc I bet you don't drop that pipe-wrench on your foot :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 13:09:48 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: BA23 vs. BA123 vs. 42" cabinet? Message-ID: Hi, all. I went last night and picked up (OK, dragged, while groaning) the MicroVAX Terry Murphy posted for rescue Thursday night. I'm fairly certain he hadn't ever used it, as the description was not terribly accurate. There was no DELQA, several of the cab kits aren't there, memory is only 16M, etc. Nice haul, anyway. The thing came in a 42" elephant-ear cabinet, which is in fair cosmetic shape, and without plugging it in, I'd guess good to excellent functional shape. Some QBus boards I can't ID, and the other goodies that came with, I'll post separately. So. I'm not enamored of the idea of running a 240VAC rack in my garage if not necessary. That leaves me with two other ideas. 1) The "drawers" are simply BA23 enclosures, right? Any reason I can't use the primary enclosure as a stand-alone unit? It's going to be running a minimal set of hardware: KA655 CPU Dataram 63016 16M RAM DMV11 (simply to occupy the last CD slot) DEQNA/DELQA (whichever I can scrounge cheapest, first) TQK50 (undecided) RQDX3 (with probably only the RX50 or an RX33 attached) That _is_ the right bus order, isn't it? Will either the power requirements or cooling be a problem? What if I decide to run the RD54 instead of the TK50? Is it OK to run the BA23 without skins, lying flat? And, if I want to run the second backplane and extra drives, can I just stack them? 2) I can put all the above in the BA123 lurking downstairs. But it seems a huge waste of space & power over the BA23. Plus, I don't have cooling vanes for the dual cards in the added CD slots, or enough D11 boards to go around. Plus, the BA23 I can wedge into my office, but the BA123 would have to live in the garage. Advice, discussion, points I've missed, all welcome. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 13:23:45 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Aviv TFC-925 to trade, maybe Message-ID: The previously-mentioned VAX came with this board. AW-20-859-2 TFC-925 QBUS/GCR Tape Controller Much to my disappointment, it seems to be a 9-track tape controller instead of a SCSI interface. No cables, just the board. If anybody has more detailed info, I'd like to know. If it's really not a SCSI controller, I don't plan to have a 9-track anytime soon. I'll entertain offers to trade for it. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 6 13:26:03 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > I've never seen really fine ACME threads, but I guess they could exist. How about in the focusing mechanism in some lens mounts? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 6 13:30:29 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Acoustic Couplers (was: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties) In-Reply-To: <20020406191438.GA8015@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 6 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > This reminds me, these acoustic couplers may need some periodic > maintenance, such as putting some talcum powder on the rubber pieces > that hold the telephone handset. Some time ago I read about this > being a good way to preserve the rubber weatherstripping around car > windows (e.g., the 1970s Fords that didn't have frames around the > windows), now, I wish that I'd done that years ago. However, I was > thinking that it would just wash off when it rained and didn't do it, > and replacement weather seals now appear impossible to find. Now > then, I suspect that the replacement parts for these acoustic couplers > would be even more difficult to locate. In addition to the degeneration of the rubber, are they subject to carbon granule clumping in the microphone? From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Apr 6 13:36:24 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <200204060009.TAA20898@wordstock.com> References: <000b01c1dcf1$b3228ea0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Apr 5, 02 05:31:55 pm Message-ID: <3CAEF9D8.31957.244BB@localhost> They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded Windows. For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. Lawrence > And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed for the > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super Cartridge > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > for the PC? (Other then name) > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Apr 6 13:36:24 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? In-Reply-To: References: <9rnsaugegvt681t1qonctnqt7glltj7ef9@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3CAEF9D8.7385.2446C@localhost> He put up a good page after he sold the domain. Sellam posted it some years back but it has disappeared from my bookmarks. Lawrence > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > > > Anyone know what became of Doug Yowza who used to be on this list? > > Hey, Bill. He sold yowza.com to a now-defunct porn monger, dropped the > Yowza pseudonym, and moved to an island where he still lurks on mailing > lists and hoards his precious old computers :-) > > Cheers, > Doug > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 6 13:35:56 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAF4714.7A4FC56D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > > Should I toss buttress threads in? Or the whole family of oilfield > > tool joint technology? Those are threaded pipe couplings meant to be > > torqued to 50,000 ft/lb and more. You oughta see the pipe-wrench.... > I bet you don't drop that pipe-wrench on your foot :) What do you call the type of thread used for adjusting the size of pipe wrenches (and Crescent wrenches)? If nobody objects to something ON-topic: What would you call the thread of the lead screw on a Micropolis 100TPI drive? From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 13:36:22 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAF4714.7A4FC56D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Doc wrote: > > > Should I toss buttress threads in? Or the whole family of oilfield > > tool joint technology? Those are threaded pipe couplings meant to be > > torqued to 50,000 ft/lb and more. You oughta see the pipe-wrench.... > > > > Doc > > I bet you don't drop that pipe-wrench on your foot :) Heck, Ben, I can't even pick it *up*! They weigh ~400lb and are hung on a counter-weighted line. I did let one run into my hand once on the swing, and carry a one-inch scar to remember it by. I was way lucky it didn't take my thumb off. Doc From jon at slurpee.org Sat Apr 6 13:40:29 2002 From: jon at slurpee.org (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: teal indigo 2 r10k/impact? Message-ID: the answer is yes, the question is how or why? :) I picked one up out of a stack of indigo 2's thinking that someone was just being funny sticking r10k badges on the teal box, but it actually is! I was under the impression that this machine wasnt made. Let me know if you know otherwise, I'll have more info whenever I boot it up and hook it up to a monitor. It has a floptical drive too! ;) I still have that chrp prototype machine from motorola if anyone is interested. Thanks, jon From hansp at aconit.org Sat Apr 6 14:00:37 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> <3CAE89F9.7020701@aconit.org> <3CAF2CBC.E094286C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAF53E5.10607@aconit.org> Ben Franchuk wrote: > Hans B Pufal wrote: >>Since the manchester machine is considered (by some) to be the first >>electronic stored program digital computer, then the first program to >>run on it must, by definition, be the oldest - no? > I think there was a few algorithmic notes , almost a program for > babbage's mill. Ah but this was never run and th ehardware never built, admittedly a pedantic point. > Since one has a Babbage emulator ( > http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html ) This is new to me, thanks for the reference and link. > and some hardware built in the 1990's is the mill the first or last? > historical computer built? I think you might be confusing Babbage's difference engine and analytical engine. A working version of the difference engine was built by the Londoen Science Musuem in the 90's. An excellent description is provided by Doron Swade in his book The Cogwheel Brain (ISBN 0316648477). It was the anlytical engine which resembles a modern computer and, to my knowledge, no one has attempted to construct one of those (yet ;-). -- hbp From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 13:57:27 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board Message-ID: Unidentified Quad-Height Board: System Industries 9901-6082-a Date Code 621 stencilled on the back -- 61907 113 It has 2 40-pin connectors, 2 8-switch DIP banks and 1 4-switch bank, and 4 AMD 18-pin chips - AM2905PC / 8335DKP Lots and lots of 20-pin doohickeys - AM2908PC / 8512DMP And some Motorola 20-pin thingies - SN4LS244N / I8709BD Socketed 28-pin EPROMs, I think, with label attached: 9900-8954 9900-8955 9900-8956 Socketted smaller 20-pin ICs with labels: 9900-8953 9900-8957 9900-8958 9900-8959 9900-8960 9900-8961 9900-8962 9900-8963 9900-8964 9900-8965 9900-8967 9900-8968 9900-8969 9900-8970 9900-8971A 9900-8972A 9900-8970 There are other components, but maybe that's enough. I can't find any reference at all online. Does anyone have a clue? Doc From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Sat Apr 6 13:59:05 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3CAF32CA.7CCA1230@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > > > In a project I'm thinking about starting this summer, I want to try and > > re-create a PDP-11 (or maybe a -8 or something) using either SSI logic > > and/or PAL/GALs. I would like to do the entire thing in SSI, but I fear > > that I'd quickly eat up a lot of money on the project, so where necessary > > I'd replace sections with PALs. Anyone have any good ideas? > (snip) > > 1) CPU card > > 2) Memory - SRAM > > 3) Front-panel switches > > 4) Console serial port > > 5) A few digital I/O ports > > 6) Floppy interface (anyone suggest an easy to interface controller?) > > 7) IDE controller > > Barring #7 can I sell you the nice 12/24 bit FPGA cpu I homebrewing. :) I'm trying to avoid any more integration than a PAL or EPROM would provide. Thannks for the offer anyhow. :) > The PDP-11 is way too complex for SSI logic. A reduced PDP-8 style cpu > would be possible with SSI logic. While not true SSI logic modern > EEPROMS would be very useful for control logic. Byte magazine had a few Yeah that might be a good idea. > TTL designed cpu's. Stack based languages like Forth are easy to do in > TTL. I would have done my FPGA computer in TTL but nowadays you can't > find the 74LS chips I needed anymore like 74ls382 4-bit alu. One other > option is 2901 bit slice parts. B.G.Micro seems to have a few in stock. > If I were to redesign I would use 2901 bit slice parts and EEPROMS for > control now that I know where to find 2901's. I know it's not a conventional way to do it, but if I design my own CPU I might just use a few EPROMS - at least for multiplicaion and divison, and perhaps for addition and subraction. If I only do an 8-bit proc (very likely), that's doable in a 256k*8 and a 128k*8 EPROM, running me only less than $12 for 120ns parts and only 64pins in two chips to implement all of the difficult ALU functions. AND, OR, etc should be easy and cheaper to do with 74* TTL or CMOS IC's. Either battery-backed SRAM or (E)EPROM for the state controller should be cheap, easy, and effective. Mind you, I haven't bothered looking around for prices yet, so things may actually be cheaper. > A floppy disk controller interface is fairly simple but you need a fast > CPU for the disk if some sort of DMA is not used. That is why my FPGA > computer is not quite finished , I am squeezing in DMA for HD floppies. > Also the front panel logic needs a bit of work too. I might think about using an 80xx series DMA controller and a semi-standard WDC floppy controller like those used in PeeCees so I can get easy acces to docs for them. However, I might not bother adding in the fdd stuff or hdd stuff - as long as I can get the code to fit onto an SRAM or something I should be OK. I just have to figure out what I want to do before I go any further. I just > If you really want to be authentic don't forget to add Refresh logic on > the CPU for DRAM. That's OK, I'll deal with the non-authentic feel of battery-backed SRAMs. Anyhow, the SRAM will act more like some core memory. :) -- Pat From hansp at aconit.org Sat Apr 6 14:11:23 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) References: Message-ID: <3CAF566B.6000703@aconit.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Hans B Pufal wrote: >>This page contains the link to the original spoof: >> >>http://www.hp.com:calculators-product-id+ACU-3D67cx+AEA-209.197.117.170/item/product.htm > No it doesn't because you have those funky escape characters that seem to > pop up from time to time in various listmembers' messages. Strange, the link on my message from CCCMP does load the correct page. Where are these escape chars coming from? Is it your reader perhaps? Try this one, it (should) point to the forum thread with the message with the link. You need to dig a couple of pages before arriving at the actual announcement page. http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=16292 Hope this one works for you. -- hbp From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 6 13:58:41 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) Message-ID: <00ea01c1dda7$20fd1b60$b8ef9a8d@ajp166> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) >On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've never seen really fine ACME threads, but I guess they could exist. > >How about in the focusing mechanism in some lens mounts? Leadscrews used for floppies. Transverse drives as in the ARC-5 tuning assembly. Feed screws used for linear positioners. just a few I've used... Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 14:32:51 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> <3CAE89F9.7020701@aconit.org> <3CAF2CBC.E094286C@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CAF53E5.10607@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CAF5B73.8DB80B8A@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Hans B Pufal wrote: > > >>Since the manchester machine is considered (by some) to be the first > >>electronic stored program digital computer, then the first program to > >>run on it must, by definition, be the oldest - no? > > > I think there was a few algorithmic notes , almost a program for > > babbage's mill. > > Ah but this was never run and th ehardware never built, admittedly a > pedantic point. > > > Since one has a Babbage emulator ( > > http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html ) > > This is new to me, thanks for the reference and link. > > > and some hardware built in the 1990's is the mill the first or last? > > historical computer built? > > I think you might be confusing Babbage's difference engine and > analytical engine. A working version of the difference engine was built > by the Londoen Science Musuem in the 90's. An excellent description is > provided by Doron Swade in his book The Cogwheel Brain (ISBN > 0316648477). It was the anlytical engine which resembles a modern > computer and, to my knowledge, no one has attempted to construct one of > those (yet ;-). > > -- hbp You are right I did get them confused as the difference engine in more well known. None the less the Difference engine is remarkable mechanical engine. Zuse's Z computers are interesting computer designs because they are from the electromechanical stage of development of computer logic. http://www.epemag.com/zuse/ -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat Apr 6 14:51:25 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board References: Message-ID: <3CAF5FCC.6A446F5C@adelphia.net> This is an SI (System Industries) interface card to the SI 9900 controller, and its variants... The 9900 allowed you to attach SMD disk drives, and it did RM (later MSCP) emulation with VMS... It was also supported in PDP's. I used to have some of these.... interesting technology.. Doc Shipley wrote: > Unidentified Quad-Height Board: > System Industries > 9901-6082-a > Date Code 621 > > stencilled on the back -- 61907 113 > > It has 2 40-pin connectors, 2 8-switch DIP banks and 1 4-switch bank, > and 4 AMD 18-pin chips - AM2905PC / 8335DKP > Lots and lots of 20-pin doohickeys - AM2908PC / 8512DMP > And some Motorola 20-pin thingies - SN4LS244N / I8709BD > Socketed 28-pin EPROMs, I think, with label attached: > 9900-8954 > 9900-8955 > 9900-8956 > Socketted smaller 20-pin ICs with labels: > 9900-8953 > 9900-8957 > 9900-8958 > 9900-8959 > 9900-8960 > 9900-8961 > 9900-8962 > 9900-8963 > 9900-8964 > 9900-8965 > 9900-8967 > 9900-8968 > 9900-8969 > 9900-8970 > 9900-8971A > 9900-8972A > 9900-8970 > > There are other components, but maybe that's enough. > > I can't find any reference at all online. Does anyone have a clue? > > Doc -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat Apr 6 14:52:48 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: BA23 vs. BA123 vs. 42" cabinet? References: Message-ID: <3CAF6020.AEBF07CA@adelphia.net> you can pull the BA-23's out and use them standalone.. they are simply rackmounted. Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi, all. > I went last night and picked up (OK, dragged, while groaning) the > MicroVAX Terry Murphy posted for rescue Thursday night. > I'm fairly certain he hadn't ever used it, as the description was not > terribly accurate. There was no DELQA, several of the cab kits aren't > there, memory is only 16M, etc. Nice haul, anyway. The thing came in a > 42" elephant-ear cabinet, which is in fair cosmetic shape, and without > plugging it in, I'd guess good to excellent functional shape. Some QBus > boards I can't ID, and the other goodies that came with, I'll post > separately. > > So. > I'm not enamored of the idea of running a 240VAC rack in my garage if > not necessary. That leaves me with two other ideas. > > 1) The "drawers" are simply BA23 enclosures, right? Any reason I can't > use the primary enclosure as a stand-alone unit? It's going to be > running a minimal set of hardware: > > KA655 CPU > Dataram 63016 16M RAM > DMV11 (simply to occupy the last CD slot) > DEQNA/DELQA (whichever I can scrounge cheapest, first) > TQK50 (undecided) > RQDX3 (with probably only the RX50 or an RX33 attached) > > That _is_ the right bus order, isn't it? > Will either the power requirements or cooling be a problem? What if I > decide to run the RD54 instead of the TK50? Is it OK to run the BA23 > without skins, lying flat? > And, if I want to run the second backplane and extra drives, can I > just stack them? > > 2) I can put all the above in the BA123 lurking downstairs. But it > seems a huge waste of space & power over the BA23. Plus, I don't have > cooling vanes for the dual cards in the added CD slots, or enough > D11 boards to go around. Plus, the BA23 I can wedge into my > office, but the BA123 would have to live in the garage. > > Advice, discussion, points I've missed, all welcome. > > Doc -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Sat Apr 6 14:53:23 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: BA23 vs. BA123 vs. 42" cabinet? References: Message-ID: <3CAF6043.874300C6@Vishay.com> Doc, in a 42" unit rack, the term _Micro_VAX wouldn't quite correctly describe the machine. > I'm not enamored of the idea of running a 240VAC rack in my garage if > not necessary. That leaves me with two other ideas. > > 1) The "drawers" are simply BA23 enclosures, right? Any reason I can't > use the primary enclosure as a stand-alone unit? It's going to be > running a minimal set of hardware: No reason not to do this. DEC made plastic covers to hold these boxes in exactly this position on a desktop. The same skin with a floor stand attached to its left side was the pedestal box. > KA655 CPU > Dataram 63016 16M RAM > DMV11 (simply to occupy the last CD slot) > DEQNA/DELQA (whichever I can scrounge cheapest, first) > TQK50 (undecided) > RQDX3 (with probably only the RX50 or an RX33 attached) Looks OK. However, you should be able to omit the DMV11 if you don't actually want to use it: the DEQNA and DELQA are dual-width modules, so each of them will nicely fit into the A/B alots without touching the C/D interconnect. > That _is_ the right bus order, isn't it? I think so, too. > Will either the power requirements or cooling be a problem? What if I > decide to run the RD54 instead of the TK50? Is it OK to run the BA23 > without skins, lying flat? Without actually adding up the power requirements: You should be able to run a RD54 _and_ a TK50 in the same box. Many MicroVAXes were configured that way. Even if the KA655 uses significantly more power than the KA630, you will most probably be safe because you don't have too many modules in the bus. > And, if I want to run the second backplane and extra drives, can I > just stack them? You can, but wouldn't it then be easier to use a BA123 right away? It provides almost exactly the same features as two BA23s, but it doesn't need the cables between the halves of the bus, it has only one power cable and switch, etc. etc. > 2) I can put all the above in the BA123 lurking downstairs. But it > seems a huge waste of space & power over the BA23. Plus, I don't have > cooling vanes for the dual cards in the added CD slots, or enough > D11 boards to go around. Plus, the BA23 I can wedge into my > office, but the BA123 would have to live in the garage. Must be a very small office. Anyway, living in the office sounds better than living in a garage, so why not go for the BA23? Andreas From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 15:15:26 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 References: Message-ID: <3CAF656E.AACF1848@jetnet.ab.ca> pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > I know it's not a conventional way to do it, but if I design my own CPU I > might just use a few EPROMS - at least for multiplicaion and divison, and > perhaps for addition and subraction. If I only do an 8-bit proc (very > likely), that's doable in a 256k*8 and a 128k*8 EPROM, running me only > less than $12 for 120ns parts and only 64pins in two chips to implement > all of the difficult ALU functions. AND, OR, etc should be easy and > cheaper to do with 74* TTL or CMOS IC's. Either battery-backed SRAM or > (E)EPROM for the state controller should be cheap, easy, and effective. While 8 bits are OK for a 8 bit data path, you still need more than 8 bits for a practical program counter address space. That is where 12 bits are practical has room for useful instructions. Here is a nice small 8 bit FPGA design that could be easily adapted to TTL. http://www.tu-harburg.de/~setb0209/cpu/ A 8 bit FPGA computer http://germanium.ee.wustl.edu/ToyCPU/toy_cpu.html Simplex real a 8 bit TTL computer with about 120 chips. http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html > I might think about using an 80xx series DMA controller and a > semi-standard WDC floppy controller like those used in PeeCees so I can > get easy acces to docs for them. However, I might not bother adding in > the fdd stuff or hdd stuff - as long as I can get the code to fit onto an > SRAM or something I should be OK. I just have to figure out what I want > to do before I go any further. A IDE disk interface may be a simpler design, and faster than a floppy. > That's OK, I'll deal with the non-authentic feel of battery-backed SRAMs. > Anyhow, the SRAM will act more like some core memory. :) I plan later to use a EEPROM bootstrap that I can load from the front panel, once I decide on a I/O device -- floppy disk or IDE drive. I got a nice hardware bootstrap that can load from serial console/paper tape (If I had a reader/punch that is), front panel or a 4 bit wide prom. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:18:45 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <00ea01c1dda7$20fd1b60$b8ef9a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Apr 6, 2 02:58:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/4391ab43/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 14:58:09 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Acoustic Couplers (was: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties) In-Reply-To: <20020406191438.GA8015@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Apr 6, 2 02:14:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/03d748a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:10:17 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 6, 2 11:26:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2639 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020406/067e5032/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 16:14:54 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: BA23 vs. BA123 vs. 42" cabinet? In-Reply-To: <3CAF6043.874300C6@Vishay.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Andreas Freiherr wrote: > > in a 42" unit rack, the term _Micro_VAX wouldn't quite correctly > describe the machine. My sentiments exactly, but that's what the badge says.... The thing dwarfs my washing machine. > Looks OK. However, you should be able to omit the DMV11 if you don't > actually want to use it: the DEQNA and DELQA are dual-width modules, so > each of them will nicely fit into the A/B alots without touching the C/D > interconnect. I know you can run dual-heght boards in the A/B slots, but what about cooling? My MV-II has a couple of black plastic dummies in the C/D side that I assumed are for airflow direction. If those aren't strictly needed, that would simplify things somewhat. > Without actually adding up the power requirements: You should be able to > run a RD54 _and_ a TK50 in the same box. Many MicroVAXes were configured > that way. Even if the KA655 uses significantly more power than the > KA630, you will most probably be safe because you don't have too many > modules in the bus. Well, I need the RX50, and there are only 2 drive bays. I'll probably run remote filesystems either way. > > And, if I want to run the second backplane and extra drives, can I > > just stack them? > > You can, but wouldn't it then be easier to use a BA123 right away? It 2 BA23s is still smaller than a BA123. They'll stack on top of the existing BA123 easier than another BA123, too. ;) > Must be a very small office. The "office" is a converted second-floor bedroom. Currently houses the existing MV-II in BA123, a VAXstation 4000/60, a minitower firewall, my desktop PC, an IBM 4029 printer, a PS/2 model 9577, 2 RS/6000 7043s, a Mac IIci, a Mac 7200, an SGI Indigo2, a stack of Indys, a stack of VS3100s and SZ12 expansions, an HP 9000/735, a MV3100-80, a DECstation 5000/240, 2 DS3000/300x, an Altos 580, an IBM RT 6150, 2 desks, and 2 bookcases. Only 3 displays right now; I use a KVM with everything that'll do VGA/SVGA, the RT has its own, and I have an extremely versatile IBM Power17 that gets its cables switched a lot. Also several hundred CD's, boxes of drives and floppies, boxes of tapes, a stack of external tape drives, applicable keyboards & mice, yadda yadda yadda yadda. It _feels_ very small.... Doc From red at bears.org Sat Apr 6 16:57:16 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: teal indigo 2 r10k/impact? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Jon wrote: > the answer is yes, the question is how or why? :) I picked one up out of a > stack of indigo 2's thinking that someone was just being funny sticking > r10k badges on the teal box, but it actually is! I was under the > impression that this machine wasnt made. Well, it wasn't sold by SGI, except as a set of upgrade kits. The upgrades would've consisted of a new CPU, new PSU, new PROM, and new card cage---constituting a good deal of the innards. Most people just bought new workstations, unless they had node-locked licenses that would've been a hassle to transfer. Generally, the purple box means "Impact Ready". ok r. From hansp at aconit.org Sat Apr 6 17:16:13 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 References: <3CAF656E.AACF1848@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAF81BD.1060904@aconit.org> Ben Franchuk wrote: > A IDE disk interface may be a simpler design, and faster than a floppy. And can be easily adapted to use CompactFlash for smaller/lower power systems. -- hbp From geoff at pkworks.com Sat Apr 6 17:18:32 2002 From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Route 128 book Message-ID: <00d101c1ddc1$60ad95e0$2177f4d0@dialup> This afternoon, while copying IBM 1620 manuals for Al Kossow's Bitsavers Project, I met Mr. Alan Earls. He is writing a book on Rt 128, as he explains below, and is looking for information. I have invited him to visit both the Rhode Island Computer Museum ( www.osfn.org/ricm ) and the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island ( www.osfn.org/rcs ), and promised to forward his request for information to friends and colleagues. If you can help the fellow, either directly or by reference, please contact him. Clearly, any tech history writer looking for information on Clevite has done his homework! -----Original Message----- From: Alan Earls To: geoff@pkworks.com Date: Saturday, April 06, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: RE: Route 128 book Geoff, Nice to meet you and chat about "oldies" (Mailboxes, Etc. in Franklin). As I mentioned I'm finishing up (by May 1) a photo/history book about Route 128 and environs in Mass. from roughly the end of WW2 until the early 90s. This isn't a scholarly effort. Rather it is an attempt to provide a popular book that will capture representative images of the "dawn" of high tech -- the post war years with the expanded defense budgets and new electronic technology --- through to the recent past. I'm still trying to locate photos of people, places, and things associated with DG, Prime, Wang and many other companies. I would also love photos from the Multics project at MIT and some photos of the early area semiconductor companies: Clevite, Sylvania, Transitron, etc. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Alan Earls 508 528 6930 PLEASE NOTE: Effective immediately, my email address is alanearls@attbi.com. Please be sure you update your files. Mail addressed to my "mediaone" address will no longer be delivered after Mar. 15, 2002. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 6 17:18:14 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board In-Reply-To: <3CAF5FCC.6A446F5C@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, David Barnes wrote: > This is an SI (System Industries) interface card to the SI 9900 controller, > and its variants... The 9900 allowed you to attach SMD disk drives, and > it did RM (later MSCP) emulation with VMS... It was also supported in > PDP's. I used to have some of these.... interesting technology.. Ahhh, the dawn begins to break. There's an empty 4-bay drive drawer that doesn't have any visble connectors, and a very beefy PSU/transformer set. There are also a couple of Berg connectors on the main bulkhead that I haven't ID'ed. The one descriptive link I've found for a Systems Industries 9900 refers to "its own rackmounted drawer." So, I have 2 identical QBus boards, and maybe the drive drawer. What components (including drive types) are missing here? Thanks for the information, too. That's miles farther along than I started. Doc From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Apr 6 17:26:22 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Software Preservation (was: SIMTEL...) References: <20020405064703.68901.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> <200204051225.NAA09857@citadel.metropolis.local> <20020405142350.A10199@eskimo.eskimo.com> <3CAE89F9.7020701@aconit.org> <3CAF2CBC.E094286C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAF841E.9010908@dragonsweb.org> Ben Franchuk wrote: > > I think there was a few algorithmic notes , almost a program for > babbage's mill. > Since one has a Babbage emulator ( > http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/contents.html ) > and some hardware built in the 1990's is the mill the first or last? > historical computer built? "...a plan for how the engine might calculate Bernoulli numbers."[1] Written by Ada Byron, Lady Lovelace. Thanks for the emulator link. jbdigriz [1] http://www.well.com/user/adatoole/bio.htm From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Apr 6 14:44:42 2002 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Computers Manufactured in 1986 (UnixPC) Message-ID: >Thanks to the assistance of a fellow lister >(hi Mark!) I finally have one now, which I will keep forever. > > -Dave Hi Dave! Putting people together with computers they love just (snif!) makes me feel all gushy inside ... but I in turn have to pass the thanks in this case on to William Fulmor, without whom I'd know nothing about UnixPC's, and who is responsible for my having access to any at all. And more generally to many other listmembers (Hi Tony, Jeff, Zane, Claude, William W, Eric, MrBill, Doc, Don, Megan, Terry, and others I've reprehensibly left out ....) who have given me invaluable assistance in the past. This is a truly great community to be part of. BTW, for those with whom I've dropped conversations right in the middle concerning my Stylewriter, apologies. Work has gotten unusually time-consuming for a while and the Stylewriter is still sitting right where it was, waiting for me to get back to it. I'll get there eventually, but it'll be a while more. - Mark From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 6 17:43:52 2002 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: GEM-OS References: <000b01c1dcf1$b3228ea0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Apr 5, 02 05:31:55 pm <3CAEF9D8.31957.244BB@localhost> Message-ID: <003e01c1ddc4$ea8110a0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Here's an interesting history tidbit... the Tramiels were so strapped for cash when they took over Atari, that in order to pay DRI for the work on GEM 68K for the ST computers.... they paid DRI with the VAX 11/750 located in the Atari Grass Valley R&D lab which was closed shortly after. I spoke with Ron Milner, one of the original Atari engineers and he explained how one day Gary Kildall and crew were in the R&D computer room disconnecting the Vax and was explained that it was their "payment" for developing a new OS for the Tramiels. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:36 PM Subject: Re: GEM-OS > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded Windows. > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. > > Lawrence > > > And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > > > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed for the > > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super Cartridge > > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > > > > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > > for the PC? (Other then name) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From sloboyko at yahoo.com Sat Apr 6 19:19:32 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3CAF81BD.1060904@aconit.org> Message-ID: <20020407011932.58905.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> The SBC6120 (PDP-8 board) uses an IDE drive in LBA mode, simply stating, "on address X read or write these 256 16(12) bit words". Because this obviously requires a great deal of intelligence on the drive's part, (certainly more than the computer itself has) I suppose that philosophically speaking, this is "cheating".... --- Hans B Pufal wrote: > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > A IDE disk interface may be a simpler design, and > faster than a floppy. > > And can be easily adapted to use CompactFlash for > smaller/lower power > systems. > > -- hbp > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bill at timeguy.com Sat Apr 6 19:41:36 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: ADM3a Keyboard Photo Needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020406103144.014cc808@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20020406194052.V69925-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> If you'd be so kind as to send a picture of one over, I'll see if it matches up. 5MP is fine! :-) On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Bill Richman may have mentioned these words: > >Actually, it's an ADM3A+ (plus)... > > [snippage] > > Is the keyboard similar enough to an ADM31 to be helpful to you? And if so, > is 5 megapixel good enough quality? (;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 6 19:42:48 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Palm Pilot & DEC Module List? Message-ID: I seem to recall that a couple years ago someone converted the "Field Guide" to something that could be read on a Palm Pilot. Am I remembering correctly, and does anyone have a copy? I just got a Sony T615C, and one of the must have items for it is going to be the Field Guide! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Apr 6 19:44:21 2002 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: FREE STUFF in Austin, TX Message-ID: <20020407014421.GU26436@mrbill.net> Still got a pile of FREE STUFF in Austin, TX. People have emailed saying they're interested, then drop off the face of the earth. Please dont contact me unless you are serious about picking any of these up. See pictures at http://www.mrbill.net/~mrbill/freestuff The GRiD laptops are taken, the DELNI and Sun VME boards are still available. List of the boards: 501 1767 - 4/6x0 memory board 501 1855 - IPI controller (x4) 501 1221 - Comm Processor II 501 1203 - ALM-2 501 1217 - SCSI controller (3row DB50) (x2) And these non-Sun-branded boards; ED5P182-30/G1 - FDDI ED5P182-32/G1 SUN DKHS - FDDI (x2) pics at http://www.mrbill.net/~mrbill/fddi/ Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat Apr 6 20:24:29 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board References: Message-ID: <3CAFADDC.B7FCD381@adelphia.net> sounds like you got everything but the drives, and of course an actual SI 9900 disk controller, ths 9900 controller was a rackmount box a little smaller than a rackmount BA23 would look like... not as deep front to back.... the SMD drives hooked to this controller, then the qbus (or UNIBUS) interface cards connected to the controller itself... they supported an early cluster called SI CLUSTOR which predated VMS Clustering, and also allowed multiple PDP 11's to share the same disks... interesting to say the least... unfortunately I disposed of all my SI docs and software in 95... Doc wrote: > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, David Barnes wrote: > > > This is an SI (System Industries) interface card to the SI 9900 controller, > > and its variants... The 9900 allowed you to attach SMD disk drives, and > > it did RM (later MSCP) emulation with VMS... It was also supported in > > PDP's. I used to have some of these.... interesting technology.. > > Ahhh, the dawn begins to break. There's an empty 4-bay drive drawer > that doesn't have any visble connectors, and a very beefy > PSU/transformer set. There are also a couple of Berg connectors on the > main bulkhead that I haven't ID'ed. The one descriptive link I've found > for a Systems Industries 9900 refers to "its own rackmounted drawer." > So, I have 2 identical QBus boards, and maybe the drive drawer. What > components (including drive types) are missing here? > Thanks for the information, too. That's miles farther along than I > started. > > Doc -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 21:43:16 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: recreating the PDP-11 References: <20020407011932.58905.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CAFC054.6B516148@jetnet.ab.ca> Loboyko Steve wrote: > > The SBC6120 (PDP-8 board) uses an IDE drive in LBA > mode, simply stating, "on address X read or write > these 256 16(12) bit words". Because this obviously > requires a great deal of intelligence on the drive's > part, (certainly more than the computer itself has) I > suppose that philosophically speaking, this is > "cheating".... Bigger YES! Cheating no! Other than stupid floppies and the old HD's on the PC where you just get raw data from the drive, almost all the interfaces for disks have been - set track / sector / head and buffer address then a read/write a block to memory command. With a machine as small as pdp-8 you had very dense I/O routines compared to today's machines that need 64kb?? of bios for basic I/O. The last page (128 bytes??) was often all the room you had for a disk driver that often swapped the entire 4k of memory to and from disk. As for the cpu on the HD it is more powerful than a pdp-8 but then HD's are a hell of a lot faster than in the 1960's that were often only FM formatted hard sectored machines. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Apr 6 21:54:43 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) Message-ID: <20020406195443.A2542@eskimo.eskimo.com> Does anyone have one? I have borrowed two large manuals. I'd like to scan them, as opposed to photocopying, but it would have to be quick and reliable (so I can get good results the first time and return the manuals in good shape). Thanks, -- Derek From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Apr 6 23:04:02 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) Message-ID: <20020407050529.JYER24358.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Hans Franke > If you got some 2016s laying around, I'd be more than willing > to frre you of this burden. I would send a few of them to you, but wouldn't it be cheaper for you to buy them locally? > You realy think I'd dump any computer stuff ? Hey, if you would steal the RAM from a ZX81, who knows what you might do ;>) Glen 0/0 From univac2 at earthlink.net Sat Apr 6 23:31:47 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Palm Pilot & DEC Module List? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 4/6/02 7:42 PM, Zane H. Healy at healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > I seem to recall that a couple years ago someone converted the "Field > Guide" to something that could be read on a Palm Pilot. Am I remembering > correctly, and does anyone have a copy? I just got a Sony T615C, and one > of the must have items for it is going to be the Field Guide! I think it's at: http://www.dadaboom.com/pdp11/ -- Owen Robertson From tom at sba.miami.edu Sat Apr 6 23:29:55 2002 From: tom at sba.miami.edu (Tom Leffingwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706655A@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: I did that too, but I also wanted need to manipulate the file system, because the floppy had v4.0 on it, and I had v5.3 in another dsk file. On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > If all you want is a straight copy of an RT-11 > disk and you are using OpenVMS, why not use > BACKUP/PHYSICAL? > > I would suggest: > > $ BACKUP/PHYSICAL device: filename.BCK/SAVE > > This would save your floppy contents in filename.BCK. > Then restore with: > > $ BACKUP/PHYSICAL filename.BCK/SAVE device: > > I don't have the necessary h/w anymore to > try this, but it should work. I've certainly done > something similar with RX50 WPS floppies and I've > seen others do the same with DECmate III floppies. > > The added advantage is that you end up with > a block-by-block copy of your floppy that > you can save on CD or whatever. > > Antonio > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 6 23:52:35 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) References: <20020407050529.JYER24358.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <001901c1ddf8$6b4386e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's nothing special about a 2016, as compared with a 6116. The latter was MUCH more common, and used less power. The 2016 is an NMOS device, while the 6116 is CMOS. Both of these are common as dirt, BTW. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: 2016 (was: ZX81 and 6116) > > From: Hans Franke > > > If you got some 2016s laying around, I'd be more than willing > > to frre you of this burden. > > I would send a few of them to you, but wouldn't it be cheaper for you to > buy them locally? > > > You realy think I'd dump any computer stuff ? > > Hey, if you would steal the RAM from a ZX81, who knows what you might do > ;>) > > Glen > 0/0 > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 7 01:46:50 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Need Micro/RSX and PDP-11/53 help Message-ID: Continuing saga of Friday nights haul: When I emailed Terry that I'd pick up the MicroVAX, and we made the arrangements, he told me, "By the way, as long as you haul off that rack, you're welcome to take the PDP-11 and the PDP-8." Naturally, I made that further concession.... The PDP-8/A is in pretty sorry shape, at first glance. It's on hold till I have time to go over it and figure out what's there and what it needs. Probably a couple of weeks. Anyway. the 11/53 is in good shape, inspected, cleaned, and back together. It has Micro/RSX installed on DU0, and not only is it Greek to me, but I've been Googling for 3 hours, and haven't found a coherent description or command reference. Moreover, I don't see any software at all available to run on Micro/RSX. Are RSX-11 utilities binary-compatible? Any suggestions as to a next step? Pointers at the Micro/RSX Users' Group would be handy. Doc From caprio at dcms.com Sun Apr 7 01:24:57 2002 From: caprio at dcms.com (Don Caprio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Need help with Jumpering Imsai SIO board Message-ID: <200204070724.g377Ovx2016828@dcms.com> I have an Imsai SIO Rev 3 serial card. I have the docs but the last section of the manual may be missing. I've read the section on how to set the two jumpers for the baord address but I'm having trouble translating. Could someone who knows this subject please help me to figure out the address of this SIO card? Jumps on the baord are set like this: C7 (port Select 1) 1 16 2 ---- 15 3 14 4 ---- 13 5 12 6 ---- 11 7 ---- 10 8 9 D6 (port Select 0) 1 16 2 15 3 16 4 13 5 ---- 12 6 11 7 10 8 ---- 9 Here is the s-ction out of the manual: C7 A7 --+---------- 1 16 ------+---------| |___|>o--- 2 15 ______| | A6 --+---------- 3 14 ------+---------| |___|>o--- 4 13 ______| | A5 --+---------- 5 12 ------+---------| |___|>o--- 6 11 ______| | A4 --+---------- 7 10 ------+---------| |___|>o--- 8 9 ______| |---) | )o------- --- 1 16 ------+---------|---) --- 2 15 ______| | --- 3 14 ------+---------| --- 4 13 ______| | I/O --- 5 12 ------+---------| MM --- 6 11 ______| | MM --- 7 10 ------+---------| I/O --- 8 9 ______| | D6 OK, so I know that A7=0, A6=0, A5=0 and A4=1, It's not Memmory mapped IO so jumpers go on pins 5 and 6. So where are A3-A0, on D6?. I think the address is: A7 0 A6 0 A5 0 A4 1 A3? 0 A2? 0 A1? 1 A0? 1 and the answer is 013H ???? "The board address is selected by jumpers or a DIP switch in locattion C7 and D6. There are two cases for which this board may be jumpered: 1) to respond to Input/output instructions and 2) to respond to memory access instructions. The case of input/output instructions will be treated first. In selection location D6 pins 8 and 9 must be jumpered together and pins 5 and 12 must be jumbered together. The user must jumper socket C7 so when the desired I/O Port address appeas on the address lines, the inputs to the NAND gate from bits A4 through a7 are high. If, for instance, address bit 6 is desired to be a 0 when the board responds, then pins 4 and and 13 would be jumpered together. If address bit A6 was desired to be 1, then either pins 3 and 14 may be jumpered together or 3 and 13 may be jumpered together, since 13 and 14 are tied to the common address selection input. It is suggested, however, that when jumpers are being used, pins 3 and 13 be connected together to provide a easy visual indication of whether the address bit is a 1 or 0 since that will correspond to whether jumpers are slanted or straight across the jumper socket." ... Thanks for the help. From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 7 03:01:17 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Need Micro/RSX and PDP-11/53 help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > When I emailed Terry that I'd pick up the MicroVAX, and we made the > arrangements, he told me, "By the way, as long as you haul off that > rack, you're welcome to take the PDP-11 and the PDP-8." Naturally, I > made that further concession.... I hate you, you know that? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net Sun Apr 7 05:13:11 2002 From: jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net (jismay@gkar.unixboxen.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp Transportation Message-ID: <20020407031310.A2000@unixboxen.net> It's not great as far as hauling large items, but I have a '66 Mustang that has proven excellent for hauling incredibly vast quantities of smaller stuff. Even a rackmount SUN 3/280 on the from seat. An On Topic to boot... -- Love of the Goddess makes the poet go mad he goes to his death and in death is made wise. Robert Graves -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020407/c3a3fff2/attachment.bin From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Sun Apr 7 09:06:00 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) In-Reply-To: <005001c1dd7b$b55d6fc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020407100600.00fa68f4@pop1.epm.net.co> At 09:59 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote: >+AD4- how many of you fell for the hp67c ? > >Is a link still available? > >John A. http://www.hp.com:calculators-product-id=67cx@209.197.117.170/item/product2. htm sigh. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dquebbeman at acm.org Sun Apr 7 09:27:01 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) Message-ID: <000501c1de40$4c5cd4f0$60eeffcc@Shadow> > > Does anyone have one? I have borrowed two large manuals. > I'd like to scan them, as opposed to photocopying, but > it would have to be quick and reliable (so I can get > good results the first time and return the manuals > in good shape). I don't know what Al does, but CDC manuals have "taint", a small piece of paper that forms the outside edge of that center, long-oval-shaped hole. The taint gets torn by sheet feeders... so if you want to return them in the same condition as you borrwed them, I'd have to recommend against the sheet feeder. :( From dquebbeman at acm.org Sun Apr 7 09:36:42 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) Message-ID: <000b01c1de41$a68ca440$60eeffcc@Shadow> > At 09:59 AM 4/6/02 -0500, you wrote: > >+AD4- how many of you fell for the hp67c ? > > > >Is a link still available? > > > >John A. > > > http://www.hp.com:calculators-product-id=67cx@209.197.117.170/item/product2. htm Other than the fact that HP dumped the calculator line, and thus this had to be bogus, was there something particularly funny about it that I'm missing? -dq From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 7 09:40:58 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) In-Reply-To: <20020406195443.A2542@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020407104058.00794930@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Derek, I've got several large Fujitsu scanners with automatic sheet feeders that I'll donate to anyone that wants them for a project like this. Unfortunately I'm located in central Florida and these things are HEAVY so i'd prefer not to ship them. Joe At 07:54 PM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone have one? I have borrowed two large manuals. I'd like to >scan them, as opposed to photocopying, but it would have to be quick and >reliable (so I can get good results the first time and return the manuals >in good shape). > >Thanks, > >-- Derek > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 7 10:04:14 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:08 2005 Subject: preserving rubber was Re: Acoustic Couplers (was: Inter-Listmember Contact Difficulties) In-Reply-To: References: <20020406191438.GA8015@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020407110414.0083c9d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:30 AM 4/6/02 -0800, you wrote: >On 6 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: >> This reminds me, these acoustic couplers may need some periodic >> maintenance, such as putting some talcum powder on the rubber pieces >> that hold the telephone handset. Some time ago I read about this >> being a good way to preserve the rubber weatherstripping around car >> windows (e.g., the 1970s Fords that didn't have frames around the >> windows), now, I wish that I'd done that years ago. However, I was >> thinking that it would just wash off when it rained and didn't do it, >> and replacement weather seals now appear impossible to find. Now >> then, I suspect that the replacement parts for these acoustic couplers >> would be even more difficult to locate. Silicon grease is supposed to be a good preservative for rubber. A friend of mine has been using it on the rubber around the windows in his car for years and swears by it. Joe From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 7 11:14:14 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) References: <000b01c1de41$a68ca440$60eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <008101c1de4f$43596800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> Is a link still available? > http://www.hp.com:calculators-product-id=67cx@209.197.117.170/item/product2. htm > Other than the fact that HP dumped the calculator line, and > thus this had to be bogus, was there something particularly > funny about it that I'm missing? Thanks to all who responded. (the reference: a crosslink, it seems, to http://www.hpmuseum.com/item/product2.htm ) I'm glad I saw it, although it is a might humor impaired, the three line LED display came out well, as did the quadruple shifted function keys, and the lightyear to parsec converter. An actual HP01 seems a greater accomplishment than fiction, by comparison. Long live _the preserved_ HP calc! John A. From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sun Apr 7 11:30:40 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Need Micro/RSX and PDP-11/53 help References: Message-ID: <3CB07430.87A8847F@adelphia.net> Install BSD Unix on the 11/53... Doc Shipley wrote: > Continuing saga of Friday nights haul: > > When I emailed Terry that I'd pick up the MicroVAX, and we made the > arrangements, he told me, "By the way, as long as you haul off that > rack, you're welcome to take the PDP-11 and the PDP-8." Naturally, I > made that further concession.... > The PDP-8/A is in pretty sorry shape, at first glance. It's on hold > till I have time to go over it and figure out what's there and what it > needs. Probably a couple of weeks. > Anyway. the 11/53 is in good shape, inspected, cleaned, and back > together. It has Micro/RSX installed on DU0, and not only is it Greek > to me, but I've been Googling for 3 hours, and haven't found a coherent > description or command reference. > Moreover, I don't see any software at all available to run on > Micro/RSX. Are RSX-11 utilities binary-compatible? Any suggestions as > to a next step? Pointers at the Micro/RSX Users' Group would be handy. > > Doc -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 7 11:40:36 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Need Micro/RSX and PDP-11/53 help In-Reply-To: <3CB07430.87A8847F@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, David Barnes wrote: > Install BSD Unix on the 11/53... Heh. Pretty much my own thought in the matter. I'm probably going to swap drives and leave Micro/RSX on this disk, but I don't have time to learn a totally foreign language right now. If I did, I'd probably be more inclined to learn CP/M on this Altos. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 13:23:08 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Need help with Jumpering Imsai SIO board In-Reply-To: <200204070724.g377Ovx2016828@dcms.com> from "Don Caprio" at Apr 6, 2 11:24:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3238 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020407/6f9b6ee1/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 7 05:50:03 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? In-Reply-To: <3CAEF9D8.7385.2446C@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > He put up a good page after he sold the domain. Sellam posted it some > years back but it has disappeared from my bookmarks. It used to be www.yowza.com and featured some tasty babes trying to entice you to join (it didn't work on me). Now the domain is gone altogether. > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > > > > > Anyone know what became of Doug Yowza who used to be on this list? > > > > Hey, Bill. He sold yowza.com to a now-defunct porn monger, dropped the > > Yowza pseudonym, and moved to an island where he still lurks on mailing > > lists and hoards his precious old computers :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Doug Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 7 14:27:23 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem Message-ID: <3CB09D9B.2040005@texoma.net> Has anyone ever repaired a Lisa 2 with the following symptoms: A distorted video image on the upper 1/3 of the screen? I'm the high bidder on a Lisa 2 on ebay url: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2013387255&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1018246402&indexURL=0&rd If you look at the screen shots, the video screen is distorted very similar to what my compact macs do with cold solder joints on the analog board. I figure that it's either a similar problem, dirty contacts or bad caps on the board. Just wondering if anyone has seen similar symptoms. I think I can get a Lisa video board from a friend in DFW who has a cache of Lisa's in storage. The guy's Apple collection is awesome. He has several of absolutely every product Apple ever made including a lot of prototype stuff that was never publicly released. I usually don't attempt board level repair, but for a Lisa, I'll make an exception. I thought Tony might have done one before. Have you ever seen this one before Tony? I think a Lisa would fit in perfectly with my NeXT's, Sun's, Indy and BeBox. Thanks, James You mean you're supposed to read the manual first? From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Apr 7 14:48:27 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <3CB09D9B.2040005@texoma.net> References: <3CB09D9B.2040005@texoma.net> Message-ID: >Has anyone ever repaired a Lisa 2 with the following symptoms: A >distorted video image on the upper 1/3 of the screen? I'm the high >bidder on a Lisa 2 on ebay The first thing to do would be to pop the top off of the Lisa and check the 4-5 video adjustment dials along the top of the video board, as well as the adjustment pot on the PSU. To me it definately looks like at the very least the size/position/sync adjustments are out of whack. If you get this Lisa, let me know and as soon as I get the two CD's back from a local guy I've loaned them to, I'll make you copies of them. They have all kinds of PDF's, disk images, and other Lisa info on them. BTW James, what version of Irix are you running on your Indigo2? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 7 14:49:54 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) In-Reply-To: <000501c1de40$4c5cd4f0$60eeffcc@Shadow>; from dquebbeman@acm.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:27:01AM -0400 References: <000501c1de40$4c5cd4f0$60eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <20020407124953.A20565@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:27:01AM -0400, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Does anyone have one? I have borrowed two large manuals. > > I'd like to scan them, as opposed to photocopying, but > > it would have to be quick and reliable (so I can get > > good results the first time and return the manuals > > in good shape). > > I don't know what Al does, but CDC manuals have "taint", > a small piece of paper that forms the outside edge of > that center, long-oval-shaped hole. The taint gets torn > by sheet feeders... so if you want to return them in the > same condition as you borrwed them, I'd have to recommend > against the sheet feeder. Hopefully Al will explain his methods soon. I don't see any taint on mine -- all the holes look the same shape to me. Can you give example titles? Perhaps they changed their methods after a certain date. -- Derek From louiss at gate.net Sun Apr 7 15:00:06 2002 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <3CB09D9B.2040005@texoma.net> Message-ID: The adjustings pots at the top of the video board often need to be cleaned or replaced. I also had to replace a voltage regulator on one board, iirc. Louis On Sun, 07 Apr 2002 14:27:23 -0500, James Rice wrote: #Has anyone ever repaired a Lisa 2 with the following symptoms: A #distorted video image on the upper 1/3 of the screen? I'm the high #bidder on a Lisa 2 on ebay # #url: #http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2013387255&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1018246 402&indexURL=0&rd # # #If you look at the screen shots, the video screen is distorted very #similar to what my compact macs do with cold solder joints on the analog #board. I figure that it's either a similar problem, dirty contacts or #bad caps on the board. Just wondering if anyone has seen similar #symptoms. I think I can get a Lisa video board from a friend in DFW who #has a cache of Lisa's in storage. The guy's Apple collection is #awesome. He has several of absolutely every product Apple ever made #including a lot of prototype stuff that was never publicly released. # #I usually don't attempt board level repair, but for a Lisa, I'll make an #exception. I thought Tony might have done one before. Have you ever #seen this one before Tony? # #I think a Lisa would fit in perfectly with my NeXT's, Sun's, Indy and #BeBox. # #Thanks, # #James #You mean you're supposed to read the manual first? # # From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:09:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Was: Re: WW fixtures (now hp67C) In-Reply-To: <008101c1de4f$43596800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Apr 7, 2 12:14:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1293 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020407/87b1ff58/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:31:20 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Apr 7, 2 03:48:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1863 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020407/193f64e9/attachment.ksh From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun Apr 7 15:39:24 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E1F@BUSH02> >From the pic I'd put my money on the monitor PSU mains smothing cap being o/c. Lee. > Has anyone ever repaired a Lisa 2 with the following symptoms: A > distorted video image on the upper 1/3 of the screen? I'm the high > bidder on a Lisa 2 on ebay > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 7 15:44:04 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem References: <3CB09D9B.2040005@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3CB0AF94.7080603@texoma.net> I'd appreciate that very much. Thanks! Jeff Hellige wrote: >> Has anyone ever repaired a Lisa 2 with the following symptoms: A >> distorted video image on the upper 1/3 of the screen? I'm the high >> bidder on a Lisa 2 on ebay > > > The first thing to do would be to pop the top off of the Lisa and > check the 4-5 video adjustment dials along the top of the video board, > as well as the adjustment pot on the PSU. To me it definately looks > like at the very least the size/position/sync adjustments are out of > whack. If you get this Lisa, let me know and as soon as I get the two > CD's back from a local guy I've loaned them to, I'll make you copies > of them. They have all kinds of PDF's, disk images, and other Lisa > info on them. > > BTW James, what version of Irix are you running on your Indigo2? > > Jeff From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Apr 7 15:55:17 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The first thing to do would be to pop the top off of the Lisa >> and check the 4-5 video adjustment dials along the top of the video >> board, as well as the adjustment pot on the PSU. To me it definately > >Please don't!. If you have a real fault (and this sounds like one), it >will not be cured by making adjustments. Once you've twiddled everything >you will still have to cure the real fault and then re-align everything. >The only times you should adjust presets are (a) after some other person >has been fiddling about and (b) after replacing components in the >relevant part of the circuit. And to twiddle PSU presets without knowing >just what you are doing is a good way to wipe out the entire set of chips >in the machine. The adjustment pot on the PSU I was referring to is part of the video adjustment. It's reached from the rear of the machine through a small hole in the back panel. Changing it's value is actually part of the video alignment procedure after replacing the video board or adding the XL screenkit modification. The pots on the video board itself may also drift and need to be readjusted. This is easily done by 'eyeballing' the video output as you would with the vertical and horizontal sync adjustments on another monitor or TV. I once had to open up a early Panasonic multisync monitor and do this. Everyone else thought the monitor was bad due to it being totally out of sync. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 7 16:10:54 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem References: Message-ID: <3CB0B5DE.10903@texoma.net> I downloaded and printed the Sun Remarketing Repair manual for the Lisa as well as a parts manual with exploded views. Actually, I did this three years ago when a friend was going to give me a non-functioning Lisa, but he changed his mind. If I get it, I'll check it out and probably will need to bug you about it a little. Thanks, James Jeff Hellige wrote: >> > The first thing to do would be to pop the top off of the Lisa >> >>> and check the 4-5 video adjustment dials along the top of the video >>> board, as well as the adjustment pot on the PSU. To me it definately >> >> >> Please don't!. If you have a real fault (and this sounds like one), it >> will not be cured by making adjustments. Once you've twiddled everything >> you will still have to cure the real fault and then re-align everything. >> The only times you should adjust presets are (a) after some other person >> has been fiddling about and (b) after replacing components in the >> relevant part of the circuit. And to twiddle PSU presets without knowing >> just what you are doing is a good way to wipe out the entire set of >> chips >> in the machine. > > > The adjustment pot on the PSU I was referring to is part of the > video adjustment. It's reached from the rear of the machine through a > small hole in the back panel. Changing it's value is actually part of > the video alignment procedure after replacing the video board or > adding the XL screenkit modification. The pots on the video board > itself may also drift and need to be readjusted. This is easily done > by 'eyeballing' the video output as you would with the vertical and > horizontal sync adjustments on another monitor or TV. I once had to > open up a early Panasonic multisync monitor and do this. Everyone else > thought the monitor was bad due to it being totally out of sync. > > Jeff From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 16:19:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Apr 7, 2 04:55:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2703 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020407/7d6dadb1/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Apr 7 16:51:48 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Teleterminal "Fly Reader 232" Switch settings needed Message-ID: Does anyone happen to have the switch settings for a "Teleterminal FlyReader 232" tape reader? The one I have works at 1200-N-8-1, but I'd like to know if I can set it to 9600 so it's the same speed as the other serial stuff I've got hooked up to my IMSAI. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From dquebbeman at acm.org Sun Apr 7 16:54:19 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) Message-ID: <000701c1de7e$c59fe300$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 10:27:01AM -0400, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone have one? I have borrowed two large manuals. > > > I'd like to scan them, as opposed to photocopying, but > > > it would have to be quick and reliable (so I can get > > > good results the first time and return the manuals > > > in good shape). > > > > I don't know what Al does, but CDC manuals have "taint", > > a small piece of paper that forms the outside edge of > > that center, long-oval-shaped hole. The taint gets torn > > by sheet feeders... so if you want to return them in the > > same condition as you borrwed them, I'd have to recommend > > against the sheet feeder. > > Hopefully Al will explain his methods soon. Sheet-fed scanner for most stuff, he does use a hand-scanner for bound stuff. Like Eric, I'm pretty sure he does most pages as 600dpi line art. I just got doing the same for a section of a CDC manual that's in hot demand; then used Kodak Imaging to create a multi-page TIF from the individual TIF pages. Then print to PDF using Adobe Acrobat 4.05's PDF Writer. Yields a 367kb PDF, whereas multipage TIF was 2.1MB. > I don't see any taint on mine -- all the holes look the same > shape to me. Can you give example titles? Perhaps they changed > their methods after a certain date. http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/6000front.jpg Should be obvious over on the left, center... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 7 17:21:05 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) In-Reply-To: <000701c1de7e$c59fe300$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com>; from dquebbeman@acm.org on Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:54:19PM -0400 References: <000701c1de7e$c59fe300$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020407152105.A26243@eskimo.eskimo.com> > > I don't see any taint on mine -- all the holes look the same > > shape to me. Can you give example titles? Perhaps they changed > > their methods after a certain date. > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/6000front.jpg > > Should be obvious over on the left, center... Mine doesn't have an enlarged hole like that -- as I said, all the holes are the same size. Is there an extra thickness of paper (like those hole reinforcers you can buy) or is the "margin" on the inner edge of the hole just too thin to be sheet-fed? -- Derek From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Apr 7 21:06:41 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: <20020407152105.A26243@eskimo.eskimo.com> References: <000701c1de7e$c59fe300$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <20020407152105.A26243@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: For those that might be interested in what looks to be a nice system, there's a Pro350 with RT-11 and the VR241 RGB monitor, plus lots of documentation and disks, on eBay. As always, I have no connection with it...am just passing it on. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2015582243 Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 7 21:29:24 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: References: <20020407152105.A26243@eskimo.eskimo.com> <000701c1de7e$c59fe300$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <20020407152105.A26243@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: > For those that might be interested in what looks to be a nice >system, there's a Pro350 with RT-11 and the VR241 RGB monitor, plus >lots of documentation and disks, on eBay. As always, I have no >connection with it...am just passing it on. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2015582243 > > Jeff Sweet! That's a nice system, and a nice pile of doc's! It would be a good system for someone wanting to learn RT-11! I looked up the card numbers, and it doesn't have an ethernet controller. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dittman at dittman.net Sun Apr 7 21:44:04 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 07, 2002 07:29:24 PM Message-ID: <200204080244.g382i4k15187@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > For those that might be interested in what looks to be a nice > >system, there's a Pro350 with RT-11 and the VR241 RGB monitor, plus > >lots of documentation and disks, on eBay. As always, I have no > >connection with it...am just passing it on. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2015582243 > > > > Jeff > > Sweet! That's a nice system, and a nice pile of doc's! It would be a good > system for someone wanting to learn RT-11! I looked up the card numbers, > and it doesn't have an ethernet controller. That's the first thing I looked for, too. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 7 22:19:30 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: <200204080244.g382i4k15187@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 07, 2002 07:29:24 PM Message-ID: >That's the first thing I looked for, too. Yeah, since I've already got a Pro380 (that I don't even use) and a RT-11 V5.x doc set, an Ethernet controller would have been the only real reason to go for it (though the colour graphics is kind of nice). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 22:34:00 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: Re: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs (Zane H. Healy) References: Message-ID: <15537.4008.343951.253648@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 7, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >That's the first thing I looked for, too. > > Yeah, since I've already got a Pro380 (that I don't even use) and a RT-11 > V5.x doc set, an Ethernet controller would have been the only real reason > to go for it (though the colour graphics is kind of nice). What's the resolution of the Pro mono & color framebuffers, does anyone remember? I recall really liking the video...the VR241 wasn't a *great* monitor, but it looked pretty good...and those VR201s were razor sharp! (I could look it up, but laziness is the chain the binds my butt so tightly to the chair...) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Sun Apr 7 22:36:57 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 07, 2002 08:19:30 PM Message-ID: <200204080336.g383av115254@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >That's the first thing I looked for, too. > > Yeah, since I've already got a Pro380 (that I don't even use) and a RT-11 > V5.x doc set, an Ethernet controller would have been the only real reason > to go for it (though the colour graphics is kind of nice). I've already got the color monitor for my Pro380. The only thing I need is the Ethernet controller. I've even got the document set for the Pro350/380. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Apr 7 07:31:28 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Route 128 book In-Reply-To: <00d101c1ddc1$60ad95e0$2177f4d0@dialup> Message-ID: <3CAFE7C0.25750.1E5F37C@localhost> I have a copy of Datamation that is dedicated to route 128 and its IT industries. Unless you already have this source email me. Lawrence > This afternoon, while copying IBM 1620 manuals for Al Kossow's Bitsavers > Project, I met Mr. Alan Earls. He is writing a book on Rt 128, as he > explains below, and is looking for information. I have invited him to > visit both the Rhode Island Computer Museum ( www.osfn.org/ricm ) and > the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island ( www.osfn.org/rcs ), and > promised to forward his request for information to friends and > colleagues. If you can help the fellow, either directly or by > reference, please contact him. > > Clearly, any tech history writer looking for information on Clevite has > done his homework! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Earls > To: geoff@pkworks.com > Date: Saturday, April 06, 2002 4:48 PM > Subject: RE: Route 128 book > > > Geoff, > > Nice to meet you and chat about "oldies" (Mailboxes, Etc. in Franklin). > As I mentioned I'm finishing up (by May 1) a photo/history book about > Route 128 and environs in Mass. from roughly the end of WW2 until the > early 90s. This isn't a scholarly effort. Rather it is an attempt to > provide a popular book that will capture representative images of the > "dawn" of high tech -- the post war years with the expanded defense > budgets and new electronic technology --- through to the recent past. > > I'm still trying to locate photos of people, places, and things > associated with DG, Prime, Wang and many other companies. I would also > love photos from the Multics project at MIT and some photos of the early > area semiconductor companies: Clevite, Sylvania, Transitron, etc. > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Alan Earls > 508 528 6930 > PLEASE NOTE: Effective immediately, my email address is > alanearls@attbi.com. Please be sure you update your files. Mail > addressed to my "mediaone" address will no longer be delivered after > Mar. 15, 2002. > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Apr 7 07:31:28 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? In-Reply-To: References: <3CAEF9D8.7385.2446C@localhost> Message-ID: <3CAFE7C0.31887.1E5F340@localhost> No the later domain was devoted to the" first computer" and had the best exposition I had ever seen. Guess I'll have to go to the cc archives and make my lazy self do a thorough search. Thanks. Lawrence > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > He put up a good page after he sold the domain. Sellam posted it some > > years back but it has disappeared from my bookmarks. > > It used to be www.yowza.com and featured some tasty babes trying to entice > you to join (it didn't work on me). Now the domain is gone altogether. > > > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > > > > > > > Anyone know what became of Doug Yowza who used to be on this list? > > > > > > Hey, Bill. He sold yowza.com to a now-defunct porn monger, dropped the > > > Yowza pseudonym, and moved to an island where he still lurks on mailing > > > lists and hoards his precious old computers :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doug > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Apr 7 07:31:28 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Video Problem In-Reply-To: <3CB0AF94.7080603@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3CAFE7C0.13550.1E5F3B9@localhost> As a result of my latest GEM searches, apparently it was also ported to the Lisa. Check out Tim Olmsteads GEM page at Gene Buckles' retroarchive. A GUI before Mac. Delicious. Lawrence > I'd appreciate that very much. > > Thanks! > > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >> Has anyone ever repaired a Lisa 2 with the following symptoms: A > >> distorted video image on the upper 1/3 of the screen? I'm the high > >> bidder on a Lisa 2 on ebay > > > > > > The first thing to do would be to pop the top off of the Lisa and > > check the 4-5 video adjustment dials along the top of the video board, > > as well as the adjustment pot on the PSU. To me it definately looks > > like at the very least the size/position/sync adjustments are out of > > whack. If you get this Lisa, let me know and as soon as I get the two > > CD's back from a local guy I've loaned them to, I'll make you copies > > of them. They have all kinds of PDF's, disk images, and other Lisa > > info on them. > > > > BTW James, what version of Irix are you running on your Indigo2? > > > > Jeff > > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Apr 7 07:31:28 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CAF4714.7A4FC56D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CAFE7C0.4149.1E5F3EA@localhost> The trick is when you learn to use it one-handedly. Also the drill-pipe slips. The difference between a real roughneck and an oil-rig worker. Lawrence > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > Doc wrote: > > > > > Should I toss buttress threads in? Or the whole family of oilfield > > > tool joint technology? Those are threaded pipe couplings meant to be > > > torqued to 50,000 ft/lb and more. You oughta see the pipe-wrench.... > > > > > > Doc > > > > I bet you don't drop that pipe-wrench on your foot :) > > Heck, Ben, I can't even pick it *up*! > They weigh ~400lb and are hung on a counter-weighted line. I did let > one run into my hand once on the swing, and carry a one-inch scar to > remember it by. I was way lucky it didn't take my thumb off. > > Doc > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Apr 7 08:02:53 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <003e01c1ddc4$ea8110a0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: <3CAFEF1D.23714.202B75B@localhost> I love it ! Still giggling. This puts various things into perspective including the Amiga legend. Even the Hasbro sale and Atari demise is related to the precarious monetory origins of the Tramiel fortune. One would have thought he came out of the Commodore thing fairly flush Lawrence > Here's an interesting history tidbit... the Tramiels were so strapped for > cash when they took over Atari, that in order to pay DRI for the work on GEM 68K > for the ST computers.... they paid DRI with the VAX 11/750 located in the Atari > Grass Valley R&D lab which was closed shortly after. I spoke with Ron Milner, > one of the original Atari engineers and he explained how one day Gary Kildall > and crew were in the R&D computer room disconnecting the Vax and was explained > that it was their "payment" for developing a new OS for the Tramiels. > > > Curt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Walker" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: GEM-OS > > > > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. > > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later > > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded > Windows. > > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which > > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. > > > > Lawrence > > > > > And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > > > > > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed > for the > > > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super > Cartridge > > > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > > > > > > > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > > > for the PC? (Other then name) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 00:40:52 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: <3CAFE7C0.4149.1E5F3EA@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > The trick is when you learn to use it one-handedly. Also the drill-pipe slips. > The difference between a real roughneck and an oil-rig worker. You mean slips got more than one handle? :) That is true fact, though. And the difference between a real roughneck and a "hand" is when you've done it one-handedbecause the other is in a sling.... Slips, BTW, for the more sane list-members, are linked wedges that anchor the top of the drill-string in the drill-floor rotary table, keeping it from falling through. Typically weighing about 175-225lb, you never drop them into place, you throw them. You don't pull them loose when the string is coming up, you jerk them. Mostly two men together, but often by yourself. It was a very _manly_ occupation. The epitome of peer-pressurized behavior. Doc From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 8 00:56:26 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Macintosh Programmer's Workshop References: <200204080336.g383av115254@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3CB1310A.D1C6F419@rain.org> I've got the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop Reference materials, version 3.2, the MPW 3.2 Release notes (2 copies), the SADE Symbolic Application Debugging Environment Update, version 1.3, and the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop Toolbox Interfaces and Libraries disks (5 disks) that I neither want nor need. $6.00 including media USPS delivery. From lists at subatomix.com Mon Apr 8 01:23:54 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Of Mud and Virgins Message-ID: <16980601198.20020408012354@subatomix.com> All right, now that I have your attention, I would like to give a report of my amazing weekend trip to Fort Worth. The most important development of this weekend was my PDP-11 devirginization. Yes, for the year or so that I have been into this hobby, I have rescued or acquired several PDP-11s. Until this weekend, however, I had never applied power to one. Many of these vintage machines are sufficiently different from the PCs I grew up with that learning about them is like rediscovering the computer itself, starting from scratch. There has always been a fear within me of not knowing how to operate one of these machines after applying power to it. Other machines have received no power because I am waiting for my electronics knowledge to develop; these machines will be disassembled, tested part-by-part, and reassembled when that knowledge is sufficient. Despite my inactivity, I have somehow known that I would love exploring these machines once powered. That last prophecy has fulfilled itself! I visited Owen Robertson while in FW, and we powered up his 11/34. He showed me a few things -- how to load RL01 packs, where the power switch was, etc. -- and we proceeded to play with the machine. There are problems with the RSX-11M pack he has, so I loaded up an XXDP+ pack. After printing and reading the help file, I experimented and was able (after some trial and error) to -- drum roll, please -- load UPD2 and create another bootable pack with XXDP+ on it! It would be a minor task for many of you, but it is a major milestone for me. I am now PDP-11 devirginized. Owen and I also scoured a few scrapyards in the DFW area. Highlights of our combined finds: - DEC TS05 - DEC rack spacer panels, rail slides, etc. - DG MPT/100 (looks like a TRS-80 Model III) - DG Nova 3 chassis - Two Sun 4/110 towers. - TRS-80 Model III, diskless, with 16KB RAM (Identical to my first computer except for the extra 12KB :-)) - A Lanier word processor (I believe of the kind Pres. Carter used) - CBM PET 8032 - Three IBM 5150 PCs Eric Dittman was going to accompany us but was called away on business. It's too bad we didn't do this a week sooner. The scrappers had just finished destroying what was a very nice PDP-11/60. I at least found and took the unit numbers from the RK07 and RP0x drive. By the time we were finishing up at the second scrapyard, it was raining heavily and *muddy*. It will be interesting to see what lives through being rained upon. Also, as it turns out, a pallet full of desktop 386 PCs isn't useless after all: you can lay them in puddles and form a walkway to keep yourself dry(er). We referred to the process as 'uninstalling Windows'. -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 01:38:22 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Of Mud and Virgins In-Reply-To: Of Mud and Virgins (Jeffrey Sharp) References: <16980601198.20020408012354@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15537.15070.922259.87275@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 8, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > That last prophecy has fulfilled itself! I visited Owen Robertson while in > FW, and we powered up his 11/34. He showed me a few things -- how to load > RL01 packs, where the power switch was, etc. -- and we proceeded to play > with the machine. There are problems with the RSX-11M pack he has, so I > loaded up an XXDP+ pack. After printing and reading the help file, I > experimented and was able (after some trial and error) to -- drum roll, > please -- load UPD2 and create another bootable pack with XXDP+ on it! Kick ass!! :-) > It's too bad we didn't do this a week sooner. The scrappers had just > finished destroying what was a very nice PDP-11/60. I at least found and > took the unit numbers from the RK07 and RP0x drive. I weep for the PDP-11/60. I take it you "educated" said scrappers, and left them your number? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 01:50:33 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: GEM-OS and Stuff In-Reply-To: <3CAFEF1D.23714.202B75B@localhost> Message-ID: OK. This thread has been causing a tickle in the back of my head for days. I finally went digging in my old came-with-what-I-wanted-at- auction boxes, and I have two unrelated sets of GEM stuff. 1 box 5.25 floppies: Sleeves labelled "AMSTRAD PC System Discs", colored disks labelled: (red) DISC [sic] 1, MICROSOFT MSDOS OPERATING SYSTEM STARTUP & UTILIIES v3.2 (blue) DISC 2, GEM STARTUP v2.0U. (green) DISC 3, GEM DESKTOP v2.0U. /Locomotive BASIC 2 v1.0 (yellow) DISC 4, DOS Plus STARTUP & Utilities v1.2/GEM PAINT v1.0U Other: Bad Dudes IBM-Program Disk Bad Dudes IBM-Data Disk Read 'n Roll Program and Data For IBM and Compatibles Read 'n Roll Stories level 1-2-3-4 For IBM and Compatibles Talking Word Attack Plus! Program and Data Disk for IBM, Tandy and Compatibles Talking Word Attack Plus! Speech Disk for IBM, Tandy and Compatibles MATH BLASTER PLUS! Program and Data for IBM and Compatibles MATH BLASTER MYSTERY Program Disk For IBM, Tandy and Compatibles MATH BLASTER MYSTERY Data Disk For IBM, Tandy and Compatibles WHERE IN THE U.S.A. IS CARMEN SANDIEGO? DISK 1 WHERE IN THE U.S.A. IS CARMEN SANDIEGO? DISK 2 And, in the shrinkwrap, a package of 5.25" disks, a book titled GEM Artline by CCP, and a smaller book titled GEM/3 Desktop User's Guide. There's a small paper label on the package that says DAK # (70230) 5.25" GEM/3/ARTLINE/HIJAAK HD The logo on the books is Digital Research but the EULA on the software envelope is from DAK Industries Inc. Unfortunately, I don't have a PC set up to try all this out. I think I got the 2 sets in different auctions at different places, but I know I've had them since before I was seriously collecting. They were useless junk when I got them. Heh. For all I really know, they still are. Doc From borisg at unixg.ubc.ca Mon Apr 8 02:19:25 2002 From: borisg at unixg.ubc.ca (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Ancient Ampex core memory board Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020407231925.007bd210@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> Hi: During a search I did tonight trying to locate info on a core-memory module, I kept running into references to this list, so I thought I'd joing. I've been going through some of my ancient electronics stuff and just came across a 42*100 bit Ampex core memory module. This module has P/N 3255780-01 S/N FA 2655 04570061. It consists of 2 boards fastened together with screws and spacers with the core plane sitting on the lower board under a plexiglass cover. It appears to be made up of 2 separate core planes of 42*50 bits. The board is 5.5 * 5.5 inches by 9/16" deep. The edge connectors are broken off, for their gold plating I suspect. I have a faint memory of picking up this board around 1976 in a computer surplus store. I've separated it into two boards (connections between the two boards are made by 12 wires soldered to the boards) and scanned it and these jpegs are available if anyone needs them to help out. I was wondering if anyone had any information of where I can find more information about this core-memory module. I haven't been able to find out anything about the IC's which populate this board (TI AAAL4 and Fairchild AAVA1) and even info on what these IC's are would be usefull as the board appears to be a simple 2 layer circuit board with very wide (compared to modern boards) traces that are trivial to convert to a schematic by using the scans of the two sides of each board. It would be neat to get this board up and running someday, and hopefully someone on this list has the info. Regards, Boris Gimbarzevsky From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Mon Apr 8 05:20:21 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: BA23 vs. BA123 vs. 42" cabinet? References: Message-ID: <3CB16EE5.AFE47D9C@Vishay.com> Doc wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Andreas Freiherr wrote: > > Looks OK. However, you should be able to omit the DMV11 if you don't > > actually want to use it: the DEQNA and DELQA are dual-width modules, so > > each of them will nicely fit into the A/B alots without touching the C/D > > interconnect. > > I know you can run dual-heght boards in the A/B slots, but what about > cooling? My MV-II has a couple of black plastic dummies in the C/D side > that I assumed are for airflow direction. If those aren't strictly > needed, that would simplify things somewhat. I have seen a number of MicroVAXen with dual-height modules, but without those dummies, and I have seen all of them still running after years, so I don't think you need to get stuck by not having dummies. Imagination says you'll have only one slot that is half-filled (the one beneath the memory card, where the DEQNA or DELQA will be), followed by an A/B/A/B slot with the TQK50 and RQDX3 plugged in. Below these, there will be a lot of open space. If you are very concerned about cooling, you might want to partly block air flow in that area to force the air stream across the electronics, but I still don't think this is absolutely necessary, provided you stay within the specifications for ambient temperature etc. > ... > Also several hundred CD's, boxes of drives and floppies, boxes of > tapes, a stack of external tape drives, applicable keyboards & mice, > yadda yadda yadda yadda. > It _feels_ very small.... After skimming through the equipment list, I can believe that. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From cbajpai at attbi.com Mon Apr 8 06:46:38 2002 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <3CAFEF1D.23714.202B75B@localhost> Message-ID: <000501c1def3$0b6b86e0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> What are the Tramiels doing today? Ruining other companies? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Walker Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:03 AM To: Curt Vendel; classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: GEM-OS I love it ! Still giggling. This puts various things into perspective including the Amiga legend. Even the Hasbro sale and Atari demise is related to the precarious monetory origins of the Tramiel fortune. One would have thought he came out of the Commodore thing fairly flush Lawrence > Here's an interesting history tidbit... the Tramiels were so strapped for > cash when they took over Atari, that in order to pay DRI for the work on GEM 68K > for the ST computers.... they paid DRI with the VAX 11/750 located in the Atari > Grass Valley R&D lab which was closed shortly after. I spoke with Ron Milner, > one of the original Atari engineers and he explained how one day Gary Kildall > and crew were in the R&D computer room disconnecting the Vax and was explained > that it was their "payment" for developing a new OS for the Tramiels. > > > Curt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Walker" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: GEM-OS > > > > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. > > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later > > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded > Windows. > > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which > > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. > > > > Lawrence > > > > > And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > > > > > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed > for the > > > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super > Cartridge > > > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > > > > > > > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > > > for the PC? (Other then name) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 8 08:01:26 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) Message-ID: <000701c1defd$7e10d8d0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > I don't see any taint on mine -- all the holes look the same > > > shape to me. Can you give example titles? Perhaps they changed > > > their methods after a certain date. > > > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/6000front.jpg > > > > Should be obvious over on the left, center... > > Mine doesn't have an enlarged hole like that -- as I said, > all the holes are the same size. > > Is there an extra thickness of paper (like those hole reinforcers > you can buy) or is the "margin" on the inner edge of the hole > just too thin to be sheet-fed? Too thin. Intuitively, I thought I'd get better results (fewer rips) by feeding the opposite edge into the gripper. But more taint tore that way than when fed in hole-edge first. And in the old days, I did repair pages using the hole reinforcers (back before they were self-adhesive and thinner than they are now), and the result is that the manual takes up twise as much space in the binder. No, I want to meet the genius who invented this binding system. Like GBC but not GBC. I also would like to find a connection for the yellow construction-paper (not really but that's close) that CDC used for the 70s era covers. Some mill in Minneapolis must have a ton of it laying around... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Apr 8 08:21:08 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E In-Reply-To: <20020405185233.80734.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <64846.128.146.70.118.1018031598.squirrel@www.gcfn.org> <20020405185233.80734.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020408132107.GA67899@uiuc.edu> Ethan Dicks said: > > IBM has things like the "MicroDrive", but modern PCMCIA disks tend > to specifically be "CompactFlash Type III" - you can get CF->PCMCIA > adapters cheap, but you'll probably have to alter them mechanically > to provide clearance for the HDA of a MicroDrive. I do not know > the physical height off the top of my head, but the PS-2/E card is > "quad type-I, dual type-II" - meaning that if you found an old > PCMCIA hard disk that was Type-III, you'd have a mechanical interference > problem. Dunno about MicroDrives. > I have a 1GB microdrive -- it's a CF type II device. You can get a CF-II->PCMCIA-I adapter that will let you plug the microdrive into a pcmcia slot. It shows up a as PCMCIA ATA device...pretty cool. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 8 08:23:17 2002 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: GEM-OS References: <3CAFEF1D.23714.202B75B@localhost> Message-ID: <001101c1df00$8da50200$0a00a8c0@cvendel> The amazing thing about the whole sale of Atari from Warner Comm. to Tramiel Technologies, LLC was that Warner basically "gave" Atari to the Tramiels. The Tramiels paid $50 million in cash and $240 million in promissory notes to Warner. Meanwhile Philips Electronics wanted Atari and the only reason they did not get it was that they 100% ownership of Atari, while Warner wanted to retain partial ownership of Atari. In the end Warner still owned 20% of Atari, Inc in stock while retaining full ownership of the coin-op division (later renamed Atari Games Corp) and the AtariTel telecommunications division was sold off to Mitsubishi and BSR. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: "Curt Vendel" ; Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:02 AM Subject: Re: GEM-OS > I love it ! Still giggling. This puts various things into perspective including the > Amiga legend. Even the Hasbro sale and Atari demise is related to the > precarious monetory origins of the Tramiel fortune. One would have thought > he came out of the Commodore thing fairly flush > > Lawrence > > > Here's an interesting history tidbit... the Tramiels were so strapped for > > cash when they took over Atari, that in order to pay DRI for the work on GEM 68K > > for the ST computers.... they paid DRI with the VAX 11/750 located in the Atari > > Grass Valley R&D lab which was closed shortly after. I spoke with Ron Milner, > > one of the original Atari engineers and he explained how one day Gary Kildall > > and crew were in the R&D computer room disconnecting the Vax and was explained > > that it was their "payment" for developing a new OS for the Tramiels. > > > > > > Curt > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lawrence Walker" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:36 PM > > Subject: Re: GEM-OS > > > > > > > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. > > > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > > > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > > > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > > > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later > > > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded > > Windows. > > > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which > > > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. > > > > > > Lawrence > > > > > > > And thusly Curt Vendel spake: > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed > > for the > > > > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super > > Cartridge > > > > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > > > > for the PC? (Other then name) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > > > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 8 09:17:58 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: "rubber" preservation In-Reply-To: <20020406191438.GA8015@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <3CAE89CD.30406@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020408081453.02298810@pc> At 02:14 PM 4/6/2002 -0500, R. D. Davis wrote: >Quothe Fred Cisin (XenoSoft), from writings of Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 07:54:40AM -0800: >> Then turn the large rotary dial the appropriate number of times. When you >> hear the "carrier tone", place the handset into the cups of the acoustic >> coupler. > >This reminds me, these acoustic couplers may need some periodic >maintenance, such as putting some talcum powder on the rubber pieces >that hold the telephone handset. I've also seen it recommended for refrigerator door gaskets. What talcum would do to protect rubberized plastic from deteriorating is a mystery to me. Are we talking about actual latex in any of these situations? I think not. I would guess these rubbers harden or goo-ify over time due to something other than lack of talc, such as long-term exposure to UV or ozone or absorption of volatiles from other plastics. I have an old Anderson-Jacobsen 300 baud modem in a wooden box that needs a new home, I think... - John From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 8 08:52:45 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Macintosh Programmer's Workshop References: <200204080336.g383av115254@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3CB1310A.D1C6F419@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CB1A0AD.BD4C3344@rain.org> It has already been spoken for. Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I've got the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop Reference materials, > version 3.2, the MPW 3.2 Release notes (2 copies), the SADE Symbolic > Application Debugging Environment Update, version 1.3, and the Macintosh > Programmer's Workshop Toolbox Interfaces and Libraries disks (5 disks) > that I neither want nor need. $6.00 including media USPS delivery. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Apr 8 08:56:07 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020408135607.GC67899@uiuc.edu> A friend of mine and I found one of those and a couple RS/6000 (I think they're 7014 3AT's, but I'm not certain) being thrown out the other day. Naturally they were scavenged :) What exactly is needed to connect the POWER GXT1000 to the host system? It's got what looks like a funky RS/6k SCSI cable coming out of it (it is, in fact, physically the same connector), which is what I assumed was used to connect the two, but I don't actually know... by the way, calling the GXT1000 a "video card" is pretty funny ;) Sridhar the POWERful said: > On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > Anyone know where I can get an IBM RS/6000 POWER GXT1000 Model 002 video > > > card? > > > > Do you have the GXT1000 display hardware? > > No, I need the box and everything, not just the interface. > > Peace... Sridhar - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) (UNIX Systems Administrator, School of Chemical Sciences) (333-1728) From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 8 09:10:11 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: "rubber" preservation Message-ID: <000701c1df07$18c0acd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > >This reminds me, these acoustic couplers may need some periodic > >maintenance, such as putting some talcum powder on the rubber pieces > >that hold the telephone handset. > > I've also seen it recommended for refrigerator door gaskets. > What talcum would do to protect rubberized plastic from > deteriorating is a mystery to me. Are we talking about > actual latex in any of these situations? I think not. > > I would guess these rubbers harden or goo-ify over time > due to something other than lack of talc, such as long-term > exposure to UV or ozone or absorption of volatiles from > other plastics. > > I have an old Anderson-Jacobsen 300 baud modem in a wooden > box that needs a new home, I think... The wooden ones are the original, 1st generation AJ's, IIRC... I have the second-generation plastic shell that assembles with an aluminum "waistband" and allenhead screws. The third generation used thinner plastic clamshells and no waistband, just some tapered Philips-head screws. The 3rd generation was also limited to 300 baud, while my 2nd generation could do 450 & 600 using the 300 standard (Bell 101?). -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 09:33:06 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: BA23 vs. BA123 vs. 42" cabinet? In-Reply-To: <3CB16EE5.AFE47D9C@Vishay.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Andreas Freiherr wrote: > Imagination says you'll have only one slot that is half-filled (the one > beneath the memory card, where the DEQNA or DELQA will be), followed by > an A/B/A/B slot with the TQK50 and RQDX3 plugged in. Below these, there > will be a lot of open space. If you are very concerned about cooling, > you might want to partly block air flow in that area to force the air > stream across the electronics, but I still don't think this is > absolutely necessary, provided you stay within the specifications for > ambient temperature etc. Cool. (Pun definitely intended.) It was a pretty busy weekend, but I think I'll be able to get it put together toninght. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 8 09:35:01 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: GEM-OS Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843A2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Pope [mailto:bpope@wordstock.com] > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS > that was available > for the PC? (Other then name) Indeed it does. GEM was DR's GUI that sort of "went with" CP/M, though, not many people that I know of really used them together. It was available for a few systems, though, I can't name them other than MS-DOS and Atari's STs right off. Atari is the major exception (in that TOS is actually based on CP/M... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 8 09:45:18 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:09 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's ? Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843A4@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > I am interested in classic _hardware_. I'm really not interested in > running unix v.7 under a PDP11 emulator on a PC -- I can get much the > same prompt from native 80x86 linux. But I am interested in running a > real PDP11. Thanks, Tony. You've just managed to put my perspective on the whole thing into words, probably much more articulately than I would have at the time I read the original message. > And that means running the old drives too. They're part of the > 'experience'. As is having to align them, repair them, and so > on. If I > wanted a modern computer, I'd buy a modern computer, OK... That too... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 09:48:22 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Fwd: FS: Sun Sparc 5's Message-ID: I really don't know when the SS5 came out, so this may be OT. As usual, I have no connection with the seller, and don't know anything about him at all. Please reply directly to Micheal. Doc Newsgroups: austin.forsale Subject: FS: Sun Sparc 5's From: Michael Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:39:52 GMT I have 20 Sparc 5's $40.00 each 110Mhz, floppy, cdrom, video and sound, 1g hdd, 32m ram. email me at mgldwng@aol.com. Shipping from Dallas will be between $15 and $20 dollars Michael From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 8 10:50:45 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: "rubber" preservation In-Reply-To: <000701c1df07$18c0acd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020408095045.0090cb90@ubanproductions.com> Ahh, then my Anderson Jacobson Model A 242A is likely to be the third generation model. It is interesting to note that along with the changes in model technology, the handsets on telephones have changed enough over the years that few will even still fit properly into the old acoustic couplers any longer. --tom At 10:10 AM 4/8/02 -0400, you wrote: > >> >This reminds me, these acoustic couplers may need some periodic >> >maintenance, such as putting some talcum powder on the rubber pieces >> >that hold the telephone handset. >> >> I've also seen it recommended for refrigerator door gaskets. >> What talcum would do to protect rubberized plastic from >> deteriorating is a mystery to me. Are we talking about >> actual latex in any of these situations? I think not. >> >> I would guess these rubbers harden or goo-ify over time >> due to something other than lack of talc, such as long-term >> exposure to UV or ozone or absorption of volatiles from >> other plastics. >> >> I have an old Anderson-Jacobsen 300 baud modem in a wooden >> box that needs a new home, I think... > >The wooden ones are the original, 1st generation AJ's, IIRC... > >I have the second-generation plastic shell that assembles >with an aluminum "waistband" and allenhead screws. The >third generation used thinner plastic clamshells and no >waistband, just some tapered Philips-head screws. The >3rd generation was also limited to 300 baud, while my >2nd generation could do 450 & 600 using the 300 standard >(Bell 101?). > >-dq > > >-Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 8 10:01:52 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843A2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > Indeed it does. GEM was DR's GUI that sort of "went with" CP/M, GEM was never shipped with a CP/M system. There are two GEM source branches, one for x86 systems and one for the 68k. There may have been one version that utilized GSX to create a version of GEM for CP/M-86, but there is no indication of this in the source code. > Atari is the major exception (in that TOS is actually based on > CP/M... > Huh? AFAIK, TOS is the ROM code that was the Atari equivalent to the PC GEM AES (application environment services) as well as some other low-level support routines. FYI, if you want the sources to GEM and some updated Desktop code, head over to http://www.deltasoft.com g. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 8 10:50:31 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs References: <15537.4008.343951.253648@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CB1BC47.BF29F92C@ecubics.com> Just because we're on the subject already. I have a pro350 & a vr241, but no cable. Anybody know which one to use for this ? Looking for the bc-whatever-number ... cheers & thanks From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 8 11:30:30 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: GEM-OS Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843AB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Buckle [mailto:geneb@deltasoft.com] > > Atari is the major exception (in that TOS is actually based on > > CP/M... > Huh? AFAIK, TOS is the ROM code that was the Atari > equivalent to the PC > GEM AES (application environment services) as well as some > other low-level > support routines. Well, this comes from reading, and not from first hand experience, so I could bw wrong, as always. (Not that I'm always wrong, but I could be... ;) I thought that they were supposed to have used a good chunk of CP/M source in creating TOS, though. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 8 12:36:53 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: 11/70 processor handbook In-Reply-To: <16980601198.20020408012354@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020408113653.00aa7ba0@ubanproductions.com> Hi Jeffrey, If you happen to come across an extra 11/70 processor handbook, I'm looking for one... --tnx --tom From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 8 11:37:30 2002 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Pittsburgh (PERQ) bound References: Message-ID: <007f01c1df1b$ae2b2a20$a1db3fd0@DOMAIN> I'm driving a visiting sister back home to Pa. shortly and then I hope to cc swap/shop/visit a little along my way back to Georgia down the I-95 corridor. Its been many years since I've been back there and I'd love to find a Three Rivers machine in my hometown. I'd also or then alter course for a lisp box and several others too. I'm kinda poor, but can bring stuff along and trade with the best of em. Any ideas anyone? ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 8 11:54:01 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843AB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > I thought that they were supposed to have used a good chunk of CP/M > source in creating TOS, though. > Probably not. The TOS is both the AES & GEMVDI and it's all 68K assembly. I don't think CP/M-68K was ported to the ST until after AtariGEM was released. g. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Apr 8 12:34:17 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: 2 IBM 5.25" external floppy drives available + mics old PC stuff Message-ID: <3CB1D499.5080202@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi cleaning out offices and found 2 IBM 5.25" floppy drives EXTERNAL says something like "type 4865" on the bottom and has some 50-ish pin male plug. Also an old AUI/BNC ethernet card and a 128 kB memory extension card. This is in Indianapolis. Let me know or by the end of the week this stuff is going to dumpster. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 8 12:35:28 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: ccmp readers are everywhere In-Reply-To: <20020405.140905.-226035.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3CB1F100.606.42504819@localhost> Wasn't there a thread about Toilett Processing and necersary electronic equippment for Frendly Rest Rooms ? Well, some CCMPers must have a driect connection to EU officials. The FRR Project is quite like taken out of our discusion :) http://frr.certec.lth.se/ Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 8 04:39:16 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Doug Yowza? In-Reply-To: <3CAFE7C0.31887.1E5F340@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > No the later domain was devoted to the" first computer" and had the best > exposition I had ever seen. Guess I'll have to go to the cc archives and > make my lazy self do a thorough search. Thanks. Oh, you're talking about the Blinkenlights Archaeological Institute: http://www.blinkenlights.com Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 8 12:40:56 2002 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: GEM-OS References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843AB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <006d01c1df24$8b5d5190$0a00a8c0@cvendel> If you'd like to readup more on the Atari ST architecture, GEM, AES and DRI's role with Atari and TOS, go to the Atari History Museum Technical Documents Archives, here's a link directly into the Atari 16/32 bit Systems section: http://www.atari-history.com/archives/tech_docs_16bits.html Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 12:30 PM Subject: RE: GEM-OS > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gene Buckle [mailto:geneb@deltasoft.com] > > > > Atari is the major exception (in that TOS is actually based on > > > CP/M... > > > Huh? AFAIK, TOS is the ROM code that was the Atari > > equivalent to the PC > > GEM AES (application environment services) as well as some > > other low-level > > support routines. > > Well, this comes from reading, and not from first hand experience, > so I could bw wrong, as always. (Not that I'm always wrong, but I > could be... ;) > > I thought that they were supposed to have used a good chunk of CP/M > source in creating TOS, though. > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From liste at artware.qc.ca Mon Apr 8 14:14:57 2002 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Of Mud and Virgins In-Reply-To: <16980601198.20020408012354@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On 08-Apr-2002 Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > All right, now that I have your attention, I would like to give a report > of my amazing weekend trip to Fort Worth. At first I took the subject to refer to online MUDs and cybersex. Only after reading the article and knowing the proper reference did I think of wrestling in mud and such not. This means something, but I don't know what and it's probably not very complementary. -Philip From henk.gooijen at 12move.nl Mon Apr 8 13:11:39 2002 From: henk.gooijen at 12move.nl (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's Message-ID: <000201c1df29$98b70930$a09997c2@greyhound> Well, thanks everybody for enlighten me. Edward (too!) and I will take together at least 3 RM03's. I checked the PDP11 Peripherals handbook 1978-79 to see what is written about the differences between the RM02 and the RM03. Edward wrote already that the RM02 was for all PDP-11's except the 11/70, and that the RM03 was specifically for the 11/70. Furthermore average seek time and latency are identical, however, the peak data transfer rate for the RM02 is only 806,000 bytes/second, where the RM03 has a peak rate of 1,200,00 bytes per second. That is why DEC saw the RM03 (according to the book) as the high performance storage for database applications. More (difference) info on both drives for completeness: RM02 RM03 rotational speed : 2400 rpm, 3600 rpm max latency : 25.9 msec, 17.3 msec avg latency : 12.5 msec, 8.33 msec max start time : 25 sec, 35 sec <--- not a typo! typical start time : 15 sec, 25 sec <--- not a typo! Thanks again for the good advice. I will grab 'm !! And Tony, "you speak from my heart" as we in Holland say. Nothing can beat the sound, smell and certainly the looks of any blinkenlight PDP, IMHO... - Henk. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020408/ca3b377e/attachment.html From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 8 13:27:33 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: "rubber" preservation References: <000701c1df07$18c0acd0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <008501c1df2b$225ea3e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Soft latex-rubber (non vulcanized) is very sensitive to free H2 (hydrogen-gas) that is avialble in the atmosphere at very low concentration (~0.01% by volume) Remember the partyballoons that loose their festive appearance after a few days? H2 is the culprit! By applying talcum or "non corosive" fat/oil the rubber will effectively be isolated from the H2 in the atmosphere, Oil, however, is not very handy if you want to use the rubber for pulleys or drivebands. Talcum can be used if applied sparingly, while maintaining a comfortable level of friction I've fixed shriveled-up pulleys from cassette-recorders by submerging them in arachide-oil for a few hours. Removing the surplus oil (repeatedly) with a mild detergent or alcohol, and applying a bit talcum for preventive maintenance. It's important to let the rubber sweat out the oil for a few days and remove the surplus oil again if needed, before putting the rubber back to active use (oil sticks to tapes and those will be eaten by the recorder or the tapedrive). Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------------------- > > What talcum would do to protect rubberized plastic from > > deteriorating is a mystery to me. Are we talking about > > actual latex in any of these situations? I think not. > From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Mon Apr 8 13:35:02 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle if possible) References: <000701c1de7e$c59fe300$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CB1E2D6.4F976D7B@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > Sheet-fed scanner for most stuff, he does use a hand-scanner > for bound stuff. Like Eric, I'm pretty sure he does most pages > as 600dpi line art. I just got doing the same for a section of > a CDC manual that's in hot demand; then used Kodak Imaging > to create a multi-page TIF from the individual TIF pages. Then > print to PDF using Adobe Acrobat 4.05's PDF Writer. Yields a > 367kb PDF, whereas multipage TIF was 2.1MB. Then your TIFFs weren't compressed with the Group 4 2D algorithm, which is the best around, until we've all got JBIG tools. Either that, or PDF Writer reduced the resolution during conversion. From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Apr 8 13:40:22 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Shoddy Hardware (Was: Re: WW fixtures (was Re: "New" PDP-8)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CAFE7C0.4149.1E5F3EA@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB19DC6.6349.4E8A46B@localhost> Yeah it could be dangerous. I had a friend who had a hand lopped off between 2 pipe strings when running in. 3 lengths of 33' steel drill-pipe is heavy. Can't remember any threads getting munged tho. Has to be incredibly hardened steel. Lawrence > On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > The trick is when you learn to use it one-handedly. Also the drill-pipe > > slips. > > The difference between a real roughneck and an oil-rig worker. > > You mean slips got more than one handle? :) > That is true fact, though. And the difference between a real > roughneck and a "hand" is when you've done it one-handedbecause the > other is in a sling.... > Slips, BTW, for the more sane list-members, are linked wedges that > anchor the top of the drill-string in the drill-floor rotary table, > keeping it from falling through. Typically weighing about 175-225lb, > you never drop them into place, you throw them. You don't pull them > loose when the string is coming up, you jerk them. Mostly two men > together, but often by yourself. > > It was a very _manly_ occupation. The epitome of peer-pressurized > behavior. > > Doc > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Apr 8 13:40:22 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: GEM-OS and Stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3CAFEF1D.23714.202B75B@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB19DC6.12964.4E8A3FD@localhost> The first box is obviously the GEM that shipped with the Amstrad PC line. This was the post Apple suit, trash-bin-less version. The second batch is the last released version of Gem and I believe included with CCPs Artline package. CCP is still alive http://www.artline.de/index.asp and offers Artline versions for free download. DAK was an electronics marketer went broke in 94 and is now resurected as DAK 2000. Lawrence > OK. This thread has been causing a tickle in the back of my head for > days. I finally went digging in my old came-with-what-I-wanted-at- > auction boxes, and I have two unrelated sets of GEM stuff. > > 1 box 5.25 floppies: > Sleeves labelled "AMSTRAD PC System Discs", colored disks labelled: > > (red) DISC [sic] 1, MICROSOFT MSDOS > OPERATING SYSTEM > STARTUP & UTILIIES v3.2 > > (blue) DISC 2, GEM STARTUP v2.0U. > > (green) DISC 3, GEM DESKTOP v2.0U. > /Locomotive BASIC 2 v1.0 > > (yellow) DISC 4, DOS Plus STARTUP > & Utilities v1.2/GEM PAINT v1.0U > > Other: > Bad Dudes IBM-Program Disk > Bad Dudes IBM-Data Disk > > Read 'n Roll Program and Data For IBM and Compatibles > Read 'n Roll Stories level 1-2-3-4 For IBM and Compatibles > > Talking Word Attack Plus! Program and Data Disk > for IBM, Tandy and Compatibles > Talking Word Attack Plus! Speech Disk > for IBM, Tandy and Compatibles > > MATH BLASTER PLUS! Program and Data for IBM and Compatibles > MATH BLASTER MYSTERY Program Disk For IBM, Tandy and Compatibles > MATH BLASTER MYSTERY Data Disk For IBM, Tandy and Compatibles > > WHERE IN THE U.S.A. IS CARMEN SANDIEGO? DISK 1 > > WHERE IN THE U.S.A. IS CARMEN SANDIEGO? DISK 2 > > And, in the shrinkwrap, a package of 5.25" disks, a book titled GEM > Artline by CCP, and a smaller book titled GEM/3 Desktop User's Guide. > There's a small paper label on the package that says > > DAK # (70230) 5.25" > GEM/3/ARTLINE/HIJAAK HD > > The logo on the books is Digital Research but the EULA on the software > envelope is from DAK Industries Inc. > Unfortunately, I don't have a PC set up to try all this out. I think > I got the 2 sets in different auctions at different places, but I know > I've had them since before I was seriously collecting. They were > useless junk when I got them. > Heh. For all I really know, they still are. > > Doc > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Apr 8 14:29:06 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Anyone use SuperPCB before? In-Reply-To: References: <16980601198.20020408012354@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020408152906.01201eb0@mail.30below.com> This is actually kinda ontopic, as I'm using it to design an interface for my Icom 746 High-Frequency Ham Radio so I can use my Tandy 200 to control it, so here goes... I've been learning SuperPCB (www.mentala.com) but seem to be having "heartburn" trying to get a new part into the library... I've got the part designed, but the instructions are unclear just as to how everything "should be" for the "format library part" function to work - and when I click on that menu option, *nothing happens* whatsoever. Is it something I'm doing, or is this a known problem with the software? I'm running Win2K (which it says it supports) and it's only crashed once, methinks with an "illegal access" error which would be a pointer bug (not uncommon). Any help or pointers would be most appreciated! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 8 14:55:17 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) Message-ID: <000701c1df37$4eee7410$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > > Sheet-fed scanner for most stuff, he does use a hand-scanner > > for bound stuff. Like Eric, I'm pretty sure he does most pages > > as 600dpi line art. I just got doing the same for a section of > > a CDC manual that's in hot demand; then used Kodak Imaging > > to create a multi-page TIF from the individual TIF pages. Then > > print to PDF using Adobe Acrobat 4.05's PDF Writer. Yields a > > 367kb PDF, whereas multipage TIF was 2.1MB. > > Then your TIFFs weren't compressed with the Group 4 2D algorithm, which > is the best around, until we've all got JBIG tools. Either that, or PDF > Writer reduced the resolution during conversion. Well, I scanned the originals as 600dpi line art, instead of gray scale. Lineart generates bitmap files, just two bitplanes. I'd assume that it compresses much more easily since adjacent pixel runs of white are next to each other and chomp down nicely... However... have you checked out the DjVu imaging compression technology? DjVu is a non-propreitary superset of the iterated fractal system imaging compression technology I read about in Byte magazine back in the 1980s. Now that the secret's out of the bag, everyone can have utilize extremely high-compression if you can suffer the slight loss of fidelity to the original (for example, the analysis will find a single ideal letter form for an 'A', and uses that ideal letterform image when reconstructing the document, instead of recording every pixel at every location. For more info on DjVu, just point Google and cut the leash... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 8 15:17:45 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: <000701c1df37$4eee7410$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > However... have you checked out the DjVu imaging compression > technology? DjVu is a non-propreitary superset of the iterated fractal > system imaging compression technology I read about in Byte magazine > back in the 1980s. Now that the secret's out of the bag, everyone can > have utilize extremely high-compression if you can suffer the slight > loss of fidelity to the original (for example, the analysis will find > a single ideal letter form for an 'A', and uses that ideal letterform > image when reconstructing the document, instead of recording every > pixel at every location. Sounds like OCR software to me. There any major differences? -Toth From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 8 16:43:40 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: <000701c1df37$4eee7410$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020408154340.008caad0@ubanproductions.com> That's interesting. Are you saying that it basically does OCR, but does so with the font used in the document, so that is records one 'a' character (for example) and then replaces all future 'a's with the recorded one? If so, then does it also do OCR? I've been looking for a cheap/good OCR solution for scanned documents... --tom >However... have you checked out the DjVu imaging compression >technology? DjVu is a non-propreitary superset of the iterated >fractal system imaging compression technology I read about in >Byte magazine back in the 1980s. Now that the secret's out of >the bag, everyone can have utilize extremely high-compression >if you can suffer the slight loss of fidelity to the original >(for example, the analysis will find a single ideal letter form >for an 'A', and uses that ideal letterform image when reconstructing >the document, instead of recording every pixel at every location. > >For more info on DjVu, just point Google and cut the leash... > >-dq > > >-Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 8 15:56:30 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) Message-ID: <000701c1df3f$dbf736f0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > However... have you checked out the DjVu imaging compression > > technology? DjVu is a non-propreitary superset of the iterated fractal > > system imaging compression technology I read about in Byte magazine > > back in the 1980s. Now that the secret's out of the bag, everyone can > > have utilize extremely high-compression if you can suffer the slight > > loss of fidelity to the original (for example, the analysis will find > > a single ideal letter form for an 'A', and uses that ideal letterform > > image when reconstructing the document, instead of recording every > > pixel at every location. > > Sounds like OCR software to me. There any major differences? OCR maps letter forms to text; this is pure compression. Looking at it another way, DjVu condenses any image fed into it into a mathemetical expression that, when evaluated, yields as its result, the image of the original document. So, it's nothing like OCR. If the original image were a page full of little apples, the program will decide which apple is the best one, and when it reconstitutes the original image, will put as many copies of the one apple on the page as the original had. If there are subtle differences between the apples that the eye won't readily see, then the reconstituted image won't have those subtle differences. It goes beyond this too; it separates the text and calls that foreground, and everything that's not text is background. The background is compressed with a different family of wavelets than is used for the foreground. It's worth spending an hour googling for better answers than I could ever hope to provide... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 8 16:09:47 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: <20020408135607.GC67899@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote: > A friend of mine and I found one of those and a couple RS/6000 (I think > they're 7014 3AT's, but I'm not certain) being thrown out the other day. > Naturally they were scavenged :) What exactly is needed to connect the POWER > GXT1000 to the host system? It's got what looks like a funky RS/6k SCSI cable > coming out of it (it is, in fact, physically the same connector), which is > what I assumed was used to connect the two, but I don't actually know... There is a hostside card, which can be either PCI or MCA, that hooks to that cable. > by the way, calling the GXT1000 a "video card" is pretty funny ;) Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you want for it? Peace... Sridhar > > > > Anyone know where I can get an IBM RS/6000 POWER GXT1000 Model 002 video > > > > card? > > > > > > Do you have the GXT1000 display hardware? > > > > No, I need the box and everything, not just the interface. From dittman at dittman.net Mon Apr 8 17:26:00 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: PS/2 - E In-Reply-To: <20020408132107.GA67899@uiuc.edu> from "Dan Wright" at Apr 08, 2002 08:21:08 AM Message-ID: <200204082226.g38MQ0A18870@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I have a 1GB microdrive -- it's a CF type II device. You can get a > CF-II->PCMCIA-I adapter that will let you plug the microdrive into a pcmcia > slot. It shows up a as PCMCIA ATA device...pretty cool. I've got an IBM Microdrive, and I've been unable to find anyone selling a CF-II adapter for them, other than bundled with the MD. Do you know of any place selling them? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 8 17:44:59 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: <000701c1df3f$dbf736f0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Looking at it another way, DjVu condenses any image fed into it > into a mathemetical expression that, when evaluated, yields > as its result, the image of the original document. > > So, it's nothing like OCR. If the original image were a page full > of little apples, the program will decide which apple is the best > one, and when it reconstitutes the original image, will put as > many copies of the one apple on the page as the original had. If > there are subtle differences between the apples that the eye > won't readily see, then the reconstituted image won't have those > subtle differences. > > It goes beyond this too; it separates the text and calls that > foreground, and everything that's not text is background. The > background is compressed with a different family of wavelets > than is used for the foreground. Nice. This is exactly what I had been looking for. Now if I can only come up with the funds to buy the system I wanted to use for processing large volumes of documents :) -Toth From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 18:19:46 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Re: Video Card (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <20020408135607.GC67899@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <15538.9618.64026.235253@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 8, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > want for it? And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From fdebros at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 18:35:23 2002 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: dec 5000/200 loaded with mon tz50 storage box pwd kbd mouse in Boston In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c1df56$0e1d3060$6501a8c0@fred> With heavy heart I part... In addition, you can have two shelves full of esoteric manuals and Ultrix pgmg manuals (like FORTRAN!) or X for this system. Just the monitor - breaks my heart.. The system is up and running. Remember Mosaic? The price: You come and pickup. Soon! Fred 617 723 5768 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 18:45:41 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: <15538.9618.64026.235253@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 8, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > > want for it? > > And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) Wait just a dad-blamed minute! You already GOT your RS/6k fix for the month! :^P Doc, who never gets _anything_ cool... From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Apr 8 18:48:44 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A Message-ID: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> Simon as shown on the Blinkenlights web site? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 19:03:07 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Re: Video Card (Doc) References: <15538.9618.64026.235253@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15538.12219.138361.742673@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 8, Doc wrote: > > > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > > > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > > > want for it? > > > > And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) > > Wait just a dad-blamed minute! You already GOT your RS/6k fix for > the month! :^P > > Doc, who never gets _anything_ cool... Yeah but I'm quickly learning that these machines are *cool*. My new 3CT with its 66MHz clock is *screaming* fast! These processors are *incredibly* clock-efficient. Now I want MORE! 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 8 19:21:09 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On April 8, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > > > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > > > want for it? > > > > And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) > > Wait just a dad-blamed minute! You already GOT your RS/6k fix for > the month! :^P > > Doc, who never gets _anything_ cool... Yeah, Doc, go ahead and complain. I wish i had a PDP-anything. :) -- Pat From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 19:27:49 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: <15538.12219.138361.742673@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 8, Doc wrote: > > Doc, who never gets _anything_ cool... > > Yeah but I'm quickly learning that these machines are *cool*. My > new 3CT with its 66MHz clock is *screaming* fast! These processors > are *incredibly* clock-efficient. Now I want MORE! 8-) Heh. I detect too much association with Sridhar. Not that I disagree, you understand. That 3CT was WAY beyond its time. The one we have (my boss, actually) has a FWD SCSI array too. Schwinnnggg!!!! And, dude, you ignored the flam-bait. I'm hurt. :( Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 18:57:28 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Of Mud and Virgins In-Reply-To: <16980601198.20020408012354@subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey Sharp" at Apr 8, 2 01:23:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 404 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/938c4766/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 19:33:44 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: should I take RM03's In-Reply-To: <000201c1df29$98b70930$a09997c2@greyhound> from "Henk Gooijen" at Apr 8, 2 08:11:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/c15b7774/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 19:28:09 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: <3CB1BC47.BF29F92C@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at Apr 8, 2 09:50:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5219 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/a1117a84/attachment.ksh From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Mon Apr 8 19:49:57 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: CD-ROM on RT-11? References: Message-ID: <3CB23AB5.B6352C0C@compsys.to> >Tom Leffingwell wrote: > I did that too, but I also wanted need to manipulate the file system, > because the floppy had v4.0 on it, and I had v5.3 in another dsk file. > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > If all you want is a straight copy of an RT-11 > > disk and you are using OpenVMS, why not use > > BACKUP/PHYSICAL? > > I would suggest: > > $ BACKUP/PHYSICAL device: filename.BCK/SAVE > > This would save your floppy contents in filename.BCK. > > Then restore with: > > $ BACKUP/PHYSICAL filename.BCK/SAVE device: > > I don't have the necessary h/w anymore to > > try this, but it should work. I've certainly done > > something similar with RX50 WPS floppies and I've > > seen others do the same with DECmate III floppies. > > The added advantage is that you end up with > > a block-by-block copy of your floppy that > > you can save on CD or whatever. Jerome Fine replies: As far as I can understand, the ONLY device driver in RT-11 which can support the use of a CD on a real PDP-11 is the MSCP driver which is normally DU(X).SYS, although it can have other names as well. Under E11, that can probably be easily extended to HD(X).SYS as well, although I have not tried this. The rest of my concerns are about being able to duplicate the two file structures used on the RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 from Tim Shoppa (THANK YOU!!). Approximately the first 400 MBytes were used for files under the ISO file structure. Then there were a number of empty sectors (each sector was 2048 bytes). Finally, starting at sector 212,992 (an exact multiple of 16,384 - in this case 13 * 16,384), 114,688 sectors are present (of the standard of 2048 bytes each) which are 7 groups of 16,384 sectors or 33,554,432 bytes. >From what I gather, I now believe that VMS on a VAX or an Alpha is able to transfer either files under the ISO file structure to a CD media OR specific blocks in a file to a specific sector number on a CD. Can anyone tell me if this is true? I presume that VMS device drivers are also able to understand both the ISO file structure and also write data sector by sector as well. Now my question is if anyone knows of a program for Windows 98 which can do the same in respect of transferring a file in the Windows 98 file structure to a specific sector on a CD media (either CD-R or CD-RW)? At the moment I am able to transfer files under and ISO file structure to a CD. In addition, I am able to transfer a file to a CD starting at a default sector on the CD of ZERO. But I have not found or figured out how to first place a groups of files on the CD under the ISO file structure followed by a copy of a hard drive file starting at a specific non-zero sector address on the CD? I wish to do this under Windows 98. This final step is what I require to be able to have both the ISO file structure PLUS be able to read files under RT-11 at the end of the CD media. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 8 20:06:51 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: <15538.12219.138361.742673@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > > > > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > > > > want for it? > > > > > > And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) > > > > Wait just a dad-blamed minute! You already GOT your RS/6k fix for > > the month! :^P > > Yeah but I'm quickly learning that these machines are *cool*. My > new 3CT with its 66MHz clock is *screaming* fast! These processors > are *incredibly* clock-efficient. Now I want MORE! 8-) MUHAHAHAHA. My evil plan is working. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 20:08:39 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Re: Video Card (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15538.12219.138361.742673@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15538.16151.212424.543084@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 8, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > > > > > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > > > > > want for it? > > > > > > > > And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) > > > > > > Wait just a dad-blamed minute! You already GOT your RS/6k fix for > > > the month! :^P > > > > Yeah but I'm quickly learning that these machines are *cool*. My > > new 3CT with its 66MHz clock is *screaming* fast! These processors > > are *incredibly* clock-efficient. Now I want MORE! 8-) > > MUHAHAHAHA. My evil plan is working. FREAK! -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 8 20:40:20 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: <15538.16151.212424.543084@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > > Ok, well, "video subsystem", if you like. And isn't a 3AT actually a > > > > > > 7030-3AT? Would you consider kicking that GXT1000 my way? What would you > > > > > > want for it? > > > > > > > > > > And if any of those 3ATs need a new home... 8-) > > > > > > > > Wait just a dad-blamed minute! You already GOT your RS/6k fix for > > > > the month! :^P > > > > > > Yeah but I'm quickly learning that these machines are *cool*. My > > > new 3CT with its 66MHz clock is *screaming* fast! These processors > > > are *incredibly* clock-efficient. Now I want MORE! 8-) > > > > MUHAHAHAHA. My evil plan is working. > > FREAK! I'm the RS/600 drug dealer. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 20:41:12 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Re: Video Card (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15538.16151.212424.543084@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15538.18104.588110.205161@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 8, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > Yeah but I'm quickly learning that these machines are *cool*. My > > > > new 3CT with its 66MHz clock is *screaming* fast! These processors > > > > are *incredibly* clock-efficient. Now I want MORE! 8-) > > > > > > MUHAHAHAHA. My evil plan is working. > > > > FREAK! > > I'm the RS/600 drug dealer. "The first one's free!" -Dave -- Dave McGuire "I thought it would go quickly, St. Petersburg, FL that rubberized bottom..." -Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 21:44:13 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > Doc, who never gets _anything_ cool... > > Yeah, Doc, go ahead and complain. I wish i had a PDP-anything. :) I just couldn't resist. The last 3 weeks has been one long snark-a-thon. The weird part is that none of it came through the warehouse, but from thrift stores, emails and accidents. When it rains it pours. Besides, a 55L has easily as much class as a PDP-most-anything. Doc, who hasn't forgotten. From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Mon Apr 8 22:20:33 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> Message-ID: <000b01c1df75$82cfaae0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Do you mean that kid's game with the blinking lights that you had to memorize and push the buttons in the same order? I just this evening tossed one. I found it in the attic in many pieces. The circuit board looked intact. Shall I go dive for it? -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl@safeaccess.com "The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John R. Keys Jr." To: Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 7:48 PM Subject: Does Anyone Have A > Simon as shown on the Blinkenlights web site? > > From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 8 22:22:31 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > > On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > > > Doc, who never gets _anything_ cool... > > > > Yeah, Doc, go ahead and complain. I wish i had a PDP-anything. :) > > I just couldn't resist. The last 3 weeks has been one long > snark-a-thon. The weird part is that none of it came through the > warehouse, but from thrift stores, emails and accidents. When it rains > it pours. > > Besides, a 55L has easily as much class as a PDP-most-anything. > > Doc, who hasn't forgotten. Heh. But a 55L (It's really labelled a 550L, go figure) doesn't have an operators console full of switches and LEDs. -- Pat From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 8 22:55:50 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > Heh. But a 55L (It's really labelled a 550L, go figure) doesn't have an > operators console full of switches and LEDs. Neither do either of my PDP's. :( Doc From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 8 23:12:16 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> <000b01c1df75$82cfaae0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3CB26A20.5000204@internet1.net> Those were neat. I had one a few years after they came out. My mother bought it at a garage sale. I think it is long gone now. I liked it a lot. I can hear it now in my head :-) Maybe if I would have played itmore, I would have a better memory now :-( Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Do you mean that kid's game with the blinking lights that you > had to memorize and push the buttons in the same order? I just > this evening tossed one. I found it in the attic in many pieces. > The circuit board looked intact. Shall I go dive for it? > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive > Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl@safeaccess.com From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 8 15:59:31 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020408154340.008caad0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Speaking of scanners with sheetfeeders, I picked up an HP Network ScanJet 5 a while ago that I am about to put into service (hopefully, I don't know if it works yet; also, as an aside, it is labeled as an evaluation unit from HP). Does anyone have any experience with these? How do they work? Well? Poorly? Fast? Slow? Is the OCR any good? I think I made need to repair the cable that connects from the control panel to the main unit. It looks like one of the wires may have been severed. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 9 00:53:29 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Speaking of scanners with sheetfeeders, I picked up an HP Network ScanJet > 5 a while ago that I am about to put into service (hopefully, I don't know > if it works yet; also, as an aside, it is labeled as an evaluation unit > from HP). > > Does anyone have any experience with these? How do they work? Well? > Poorly? Fast? Slow? Is the OCR any good? What I'm gonna suggest is tantamount to heresy on this list, but "oh well." For production scanning, go spend whetever you can afford on a USB scanner. I'm running an Epson refurb that cost $40 (I think NIB is like $80) and scans circles around my old SJ5. It's faster, quieter, clearer and does much better resolution. Every ScanJet 5 I've ever seen with more than a couple thousand pages scanned gets tinted stripes down the image. If it's an aquisition, that's one thing. But if you want good fast scans, that's one of the few areas in PC computing that's really, truly improved. As far as I can tell, if the contrast is OK and your scanner does 300+ dpi, OCR depends more on the software than on the scanner. Doc From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 9 00:54:35 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: Numerical Recipes in Fortran References: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> <000b01c1df75$82cfaae0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> <3CB26A20.5000204@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CB2821B.E14BFF75@rain.org> Numerical Recipes in Fortran The Art of Scientific Computing Press, Flannery, Teukolsky, Vetterling (c) 1989 This is a hardback book in very good to excellent condition. $10.00 including USPS Media Rate shipping. From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 8 18:08:05 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:10 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Speaking of scanners with sheetfeeders, I picked up an HP Network ScanJet > 5 a while ago that I am about to put into service (hopefully, I don't know > if it works yet; also, as an aside, it is labeled as an evaluation unit > from HP). Dang, it doesn't work. I guess that's why it was free :/ > I think I made need to repair the cable that connects from the control > panel to the main unit. It looks like one of the wires may have been > severed. When it powers on, it stays in the "Self-Test Initializing..." mode forever. Also, several of the horizontal raster lines on the LCD display are out. I'm going to repair the cable and see if this changes anything. If anyone has a service manual or a half-broken Network ScanJet 5 they'd like to get rid of then let me know. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 8 18:10:32 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: need the use of a scanner with sheet feeder (near Seattle) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > What I'm gonna suggest is tantamount to heresy on this list, but "oh > well." > For production scanning, go spend whetever you can afford on a USB > scanner. I'm running an Epson refurb that cost $40 (I think NIB is like > $80) and scans circles around my old SJ5. It's faster, quieter, clearer > and does much better resolution. I want the benefit of an ADF (automatic document feeder). The Network ScanJet 5 can do up to 50 pages at once. It also supports a fake duplex mode (you feed the pages in one way, then re-feed them the other). It seems decent and was free, so I hope I can get this one to work to do low-volume background scanning. > Every ScanJet 5 I've ever seen with more than a couple thousand pages > scanned gets tinted stripes down the image. I saw one on eBay that was advertised as having this problem. It sold for around $50. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vp at mcs.drexel.edu Tue Apr 9 02:58:52 2002 From: vp at mcs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: probing HP-IB devices on the HP-IPC Message-ID: <200204090758.DAA02954@king.mcs.drexel.edu> Hi, For those of you following the saga of my attempts to resurrect my HP-IPC here is the latest update. I have managed to create diskettes that the IPC can read by using an original 720kb PC compatible diskette drive and original double density diskettes. I used OpenBSD (any Unix-like system should also work) and the command dd if=IPC-IMAGE of=/dev/rfd0c to copy the images I downloaded from the network to the floppy. Although some of the images did not work first time (and OpenBSD refuses to write to IPC formatted diskettes) I eventually managed to get most of the usefull files to IPC formatted diskettes (by going through the IPC). My next step is to see how to address HP-IB peripherals from the ROM BASIC. I tried to use the following Series 80 program from the SERIES 80 HP-IB Interface Owner's Manual Original program: 10 S=7 @ ! Variabe S is select code 20 SET TIMEOUT S;500 30 ON TIMEOUT S GOTO 100 40 FOR I=0 TO 31 50 DISP "SPOLL DEVICE # ";I 60 S1=SPOLL(S*100+I) 70 PRINT "DEVICE ";I;" PRESENT" * 80 NEXT I 90 STOP * 100 ABORTIO 7 110 PRINT "DEVICE ";I;" NOT PRESENT" 120 GOTO 80 130 END To get it to run on the IPC I added the following 2 lines 12 MASS STORAGE IS "/dev" 14 ASSIGN 7 TO "hpib" Now the program runs but reports all 32 devices as present(!) I only have an HP-9122D dual diskette drive at address 1 and an external printer at address 5. Any clues? Thanks **vp From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 9 06:06:48 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A Message-ID: <000701c1dfb6$a4fcfe10$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Do you mean that kid's game with the blinking lights that you > > had to memorize and push the buttons in the same order? I just > > this evening tossed one. I found it in the attic in many pieces. > > The circuit board looked intact. Shall I go dive for it? > > Those were neat. I had one a few years after they came out. My mother > bought it at a garage sale. I think it is long gone now. I liked it a > lot. I can hear it now in my head :-) Maybe if I would have played > itmore, I would have a better memory now :-( Let's give the original poster a break, I think he was serious. John and Chad, just in case you *weren't* being tongue-in-cheek, that's not the Simon he was talking about... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From alan.pearson at cramer.com Tue Apr 9 06:11:19 2002 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: NeXTstep 3.3 minimal developer setup Message-ID: I'm looking into ways of setting up a "poor mans 3.3 developer toolkit" up on a NeXT slab which currently has 3.3 user installed on a 100Mb hard disk. Before I get too into the idea I thought I'd better ask if anyone on the list has already tried and failed :-) I'm guessing that all I *really* need are the includes - the libraries are already installed, and IIRC I can cross-compile GNU tools on a Linux box (any idea what versions of compiler etc were supplied with 3.3 Developer?). I'm happy to archive apps to floppy to free up a bit more space if required. Any thoughts, NeXT fans on the list? I know it's probably easier to trawl for a copy of 3.3 Developer and just install a bigger hard disk, but this way seems a bit more fun :-) TIA Al. From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Tue Apr 9 08:08:08 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <000701c1dfb6$a4fcfe10$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <001a01c1dfc7$9850c280$014f580a@ra.rockwell.com> I was entirely in earnest. LOL. When I saw that message just after I had tossed the Simon, I did a quick search for "blinkenlights", and Google came up with this website: http://www.blinkenlights.de/. It's not at all implausible that these guys would have had a Simon emulation running on the Haus des Lehrers. They did, after all, have Pong. Later, I did find the http://www.blinkenlights.com/ website, and laughed at myself when I found what the other Simon was. I've already received two emails from people that want this classic computing treasure, even in pieces. I took a quick glance as it came out of the old kids' toybox -- it has a Texas Instruments chip in it, TMS3300 something or other. I remember drooling over the TMS1000 when it first came out. http://www.datamath.org/Story/Intel.htm, etc. I wonder if this is a variant. I carried the TMS1000 datasheet around with me in a binder that also contained my 1973 Intel catalog, and my Godbout price list. Unfortunately, these chips are not hackable -- the firmware is in hard ROM. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA Mayfield Heights Labs engdahl@safeaccess.com 440-646-7326 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 7:06 AM Subject: RE: Does Anyone Have A > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > Do you mean that kid's game with the blinking lights that you > > > had to memorize and push the buttons in the same order? I just > > > this evening tossed one. I found it in the attic in many pieces. > > > The circuit board looked intact. Shall I go dive for it? > > > > Those were neat. I had one a few years after they came out. My mother > > bought it at a garage sale. I think it is long gone now. I liked it a > > lot. I can hear it now in my head :-) Maybe if I would have played > > itmore, I would have a better memory now :-( > > Let's give the original poster a break, I think he was serious. > > John and Chad, just in case you *weren't* being tongue-in-cheek, > that's not the Simon he was talking about... > > -dq > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 9 08:17:13 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> <000b01c1df75$82cfaae0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> <3CB26A20.5000204@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002f01c1dfc8$dd4dc800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Do you mean that kid's game with the blinking lights that you > had to memorize and push the buttons in the same order?... I don't follow all threads all the time, but if you mean "Simon", the fat frisbee thing with four buttons on it, they still make em, in a mini version... It's less than half the diameter of the original, in a clear plastic case, with all the functions I imagine. There was also a 10 key "Merlin". I haven't seen any of those. John A. From jrice at texoma.net Tue Apr 9 08:27:58 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: NeXTstep 3.3 minimal developer setup References: Message-ID: <3CB2EC5E.5080405@texoma.net> I just bit the bullet and bought a 2.1gb connor drive to replace the 406 seagate on my slab. I got tired of trying to strip everything down to fit and 2-4gb SCSI drives are so cheap on ebay or in surplus shops right now. You just have to be careful. There are a lot of 50pin Seagate and IBM drives out there that have been flashed by Compaq with custom firmware. Compaq must have dumped a ton of them into the surplus market. I've been buying 2.1gb drives for $6-7. They work fine on a pc but the NeXT cubes and slabs choke on them. you get a ton of SCSI errors if they are used as a boot drive. They work ok as a second drive. I'm been experimenting with flashing the rom with ScsiTool from www.nu2.nu, but haven't had much luck yet. James Alan Pearson wrote: >I'm looking into ways of setting up a "poor mans 3.3 developer toolkit" up >on a NeXT slab which currently has 3.3 user installed on a 100Mb hard disk. >Before I get too into the idea I thought I'd better ask if anyone on the >list has already tried and failed :-) I'm guessing that all I *really* need >are the includes - the libraries are already installed, and IIRC I can >cross-compile GNU tools on a Linux box (any idea what versions of compiler >etc were supplied with 3.3 Developer?). I'm happy to archive apps to floppy >to free up a bit more space if required. Any thoughts, NeXT fans on the >list? > >I know it's probably easier to trawl for a copy of 3.3 Developer and just >install a bigger hard disk, but this way seems a bit more fun :-) > >TIA >Al. > >. > From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 9 08:37:07 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A Message-ID: <005701c1dfcb$a507ee00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > they still make em, in a mini version. Type +simon+electronic+memorize into Yahoo, pick the first link (Amazon), get this: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN2/B00000IWGW/ref%3Dpd%5Fsim%5Ftoys/104 -1881300-0590301 Electronic Handheld Simon by Milton Bradley Our Price: $12.99 Type +"milton bradley"+simon into Yahoo and you can go nuts all day long. You probably shouldn't, it's not good for your health. John A. and then there's "Trivial Pursuit"... From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 9 08:52:37 2002 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> <000b01c1df75$82cfaae0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <006701c1dfcd$cf73ff60$16db3fd0@DOMAIN> From: Jonathan Engdahl > "The things which are seen are temporary, > but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 > "Rust Never Sleeps" - Neil Young ;) - Mike From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 9 08:57:44 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: NeXTstep 3.3 minimal developer setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02Apr9.101932edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> I actually would be very suprised if you could strip things down enough to have a 'usable' system with the core 3.3 Developer installed in under 100MB. Afterall, that would have to include the swapfile as well as user space for whatever project you were working on. I don't have a lot of extra stuff installed on mine, mainly just CAPer, and the full NS 3.3 User and Developer isntalled takes nearly 300MB. Jeff >I'm looking into ways of setting up a "poor mans 3.3 developer toolkit" up >on a NeXT slab which currently has 3.3 user installed on a 100Mb hard disk. >Before I get too into the idea I thought I'd better ask if anyone on the >list has already tried and failed :-) I'm guessing that all I *really* need >are the includes - the libraries are already installed, and IIRC I can >cross-compile GNU tools on a Linux box (any idea what versions of compiler >etc were supplied with 3.3 Developer?). I'm happy to archive apps to floppy >to free up a bit more space if required. Any thoughts, NeXT fans on the >list? > >I know it's probably easier to trawl for a copy of 3.3 Developer and just >install a bigger hard disk, but this way seems a bit more fun :-) > >TIA >Al. -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 9 09:29:14 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <000701c1dfb6$a4fcfe10$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CB2FABA.1050005@internet1.net> I was being serious. It'e the only Simon I've heard of :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > John and Chad, just in case you *weren't* being tongue-in-cheek, > that's not the Simon he was talking about... > > -dq From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 10:35:21 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <002f01c1dfc8$dd4dc800$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20020409153521.42813.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > There was also a 10 key "Merlin". I haven't seen any of those. > > John A. I still have mine from 1978. Still works. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 11:09:43 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: DWBUA woes Message-ID: <20020409160943.22970.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> So... the 8200/DWBUA saga continues... I got a replacement T1010 module. It passes internal tests unlike its predecessor. It does not pass all diagnostics (no yellow LED). The two error codes I see in GPR0 (General Purpose Register 0) are 12 and E. Code 12 means that the DWBUA could not cause the M9313 UET to respond to an interrupt cycle. Code E is a register-communications issue. The DWBUA won't pass diags unless an extensive set of conditions are met, including full communication with the UET. Before anyone asks, there is nothing on the Unibus except the UET and a full boat of double-grant cards. At this point, I suspect the DD11DK, the M9313 UET and/or the cables. I have three M9313 modules. One consistently generates a 12, two generate an E. What's not clear to me is if the tests are performed in numerical order - i.e., the "12" UET is working "better" than the two "E" UETs. I cannot guarantee that any of the UETs are fully functional. I have no Unibus VAXen (out of storage and set up) to test an M9313. I could set up an 11/04 to tweak at the registers, but that's simple CSR poking, not full diagnostics. If there's anything related to XXDP and a UET, I guess I could try that (I'd have to either dig out my RUX50 or get XXDP onto 8" floppy somehow, unless I can get it on an RL01 or RL02 pack - I have an RL02 and RL11 right here). Anyone with any substantial DWBUA experience? I have the tech manual, but in the past, I just plugged it in and it worked. Didn't have to go at it step-by-step. Ideas? Source of working UETs? Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From caprio at dcms.com Tue Apr 9 10:58:57 2002 From: caprio at dcms.com (Don Caprio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Native CP/M Message-ID: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. I've tried various CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running under dos and/or windows? Thanks. From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Apr 9 11:29:27 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Simon & Merlin Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E20@BUSH02> --- John Allain wrote: > There was also a 10 key "Merlin". I haven't seen any of those. > > John A. I still have mine from 1978. Still works. -ethan Me too, though the battery cover is now duct tape. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 9 12:03:46 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <3CB31EF2.51A1CD62@jetnet.ab.ca> Playing aroud a bit with TTL using SSI parts, I get about 8-10 chips per bit on the average for the alu. For 16 bit computer that is about 160 chips. I would say 1/3 more for control or about 250 chips total. Does this sound right people with 16 bit TTL computers? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 9 04:14:41 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <001a01c1dfc7$9850c280$014f580a@ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Haus des Lehrers. They did, after all, have Pong. Later, I did find the > http://www.blinkenlights.com/ website, and laughed at myself when I found > what the other Simon was. > > I've already received two emails from people that want this classic > computing treasure, even in pieces. Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of wires and relays. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 9 12:15:48 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Native CP/M Message-ID: <000f01c1dfea$31343190$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. > I've tried various CP/M emulators but haven't found one > I like yet. > > Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running > under dos and/or windows? Without using Windows or DOS, the only CP/M you're likely to run on a PC would be CP/M-86, and yes, I've done it with a Zenith Z-150/151. -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Apr 9 12:01:43 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > wires and relays. Like this one? http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 9 12:39:38 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: "Executive Peripheral Systems" Keyboard References: <000f01c1dfea$31343190$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CB3275A.84DC962D@rain.org> Finally, I found some information on the "Executive Peripheral Systems" Keyboard. I've had this thing for several years, and found some information using Google. It is for the Apple II computer and the following is a description of the keyboard: ********** The EPS Keyboard Now,from CompuMusic (they of the AlphaSyntauri) comes a professional keyboard which is better than that on the IBM PC. It has 12 special function keys and a dedicated numeric pad plus four arrows for zapping the cursor around. But more than this, it has a set of EPS Promware models (that's a complicated trade name for an encased EMROM) which, when plugged in, transforms the keyboard into precisely the right configuration for a given program. For example you can plug in VisiCalc, Applewriter l l, Screenwriter l l, Wordstar and several others. Once you have plugged in your Prom you have a command template, a sort of plastic overlay, which tells you what each key represents. This small genius of an idea plugs directly into your motherboard and if you like you can have both your original keyboard and your EPS keyboard working at the same time just in case you want to play duets. Are there any problems? None. There is a decision you have to make as to where you will place your computer. But that is not a problem. It's a decision. We wish that Apple had the intelligence to provide such a keyboard. As they didn't, Executive Peripheral Systems did and CompuMusic brought it to Australia. ********** The URL where I got the above review is at: http://www.educate.net.au/~apple2/magazines/aar/addons.html From bill at timeguy.com Tue Apr 9 13:03:31 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020409130209.B77547-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > wires and relays. So is there a complete set of schematics and/or construction diagrams available anywhere on the web? I saw some pictures and a description - maybe on the Blinkinlights website - but have never seen the articles about building it anywhere. From tony.eros at machm.org Tue Apr 9 13:02:14 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020409135948.0316fce0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? -- Tony At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > wires and relays. > >Like this one? > http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html > >-- Doug From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 13:06:23 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? Message-ID: <3CB32D9F.832D81EB@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> I've just acquired two Lear-Siegler ADM-3As and was surprised to find that one is brown and the other is blue. As trivial as this is, I was wondering whether any other colours were available and whether this signifies any difference in capabilities? From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 13:10:11 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? Message-ID: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? I'm working on a patch for xterm, and I have a query about its behaviour that could be answered by having someone type five characters in local mode and reporting the results. Unfortunately my VT52 is dead and I haven't spent the time to discover why, yet. I promise that these five characters won't kill yours! From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 9 13:18:25 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: DWBUA woes Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066580@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >communication with the UET. Before anyone asks, there is nothing on >the Unibus except the UET and a full boat of double-grant cards. What's on the VAXBI bus? >At this point, I suspect the DD11DK, the M9313 UET and/or the cables. >I have three M9313 modules. One consistently generates a 12, two >generate an E. What's not clear to me is if the tests are performed >in numerical order - i.e., the "12" UET is working "better" than the >two "E" UETs. I cannot guarantee that any of the UETs are fully >functional. Judging by the diags I see for the XMI<->BI equivalent widget, my guess is the diags do something like: "test I can see the VAXBI side", "play with the VAXBI side a little", "test I can see the UNIBUS side", "do data transfers". Since that's roughly the order the tests are numbered in for the XMI widget, if the same logical sequence is true for the VAXBI widget, I would guess that 0E means an "earlier" test failure that 12. >Anyone with any substantial DWBUA experience? Not me. I never broke mine :-) >I have the tech manual, Is it scanned - it may help :-) >but in the past, I just plugged it in >and it worked. Didn't have to >go at it step-by-step. Remind me what processor you are running this on. A Scoprio of some kind IIRC? Which backplane: 12 slot or 24 slot VAXBI? What exactly do you have in which slots of the VAXBI? The 8200 Owner's and Installation Guides are available at: http://208.190.133.204/decimages/moremanuals.htm (or they will be when it comes back up ...) Nothing obvious leaps out at me from the Installation Guide. There is a bit in bold that means "plug the cables into the M7166 the right way round, and mind they are delicate". There's another bit that says M7166 in first slot, UET in last slot and grant cards all the way along. And another bit that says "don't snag the cables when closing the UNIBUS cab" It doesn't say "make sure the four cables go to the right places" but the diagram on p4-28 shows how they should go. The DWBUA needs a transition header installed (but I presume you would not even have got this far into the tests without one!) Finally it says read the Tech Manual if the T1010 yellow LED does not light!! Antonio From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Apr 9 13:04:16 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020409135948.0316fce0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Tony Eros wrote: > Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? Yes, they were published in a series of Radio Electronics articles (Oct 1950 - Oct 1951). Berkeley also published them separatedly (Berkeley Associates). The Charles Babbage Institute holds the copyrights for all of Berkeley's publications, and they'll generally photocopy for a nominal charge: http://www.cbi.umn.edu/collections/inv/berkeley.htm Cheers, Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 13:34:45 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB31EF2.51A1CD62@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 9, 2 11:03:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/bb4472f9/attachment.ksh From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 13:43:07 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... Message-ID: <20020409184307.36386.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> I went in over lunch to see what was new/old, and discovered they are closing for inventory for a few weeks, but when they reopen in May, they will only be open one day a week. The idea is that they will post stuff to a web page so you can see what's worth a trip down on the single day they do business. The guys who work there seem to think that management doesn't understand that stuff won't flow out as fast and they'll have a backlog. They figure the new hours will last as long as the floor space does. In the meantime, they had PowerMac 6100s for $5, 7100s for $10-$15 (I left them there; already have a 6100; just got an AV monitor from them for $5) I also saw a couple of A-sized HP pen plotters, a bunch of free 14" VGA monitors (probably to clear them out before inventory) and the usual desks and IBM Selectric typewriters and $10 laser printers. I did pick up a few things... Tektronix 502A dual-beam scope *with* Tek tilt cart Heath ES-600 function generator (q. 2) DEST PC SCAN 2000 (free) NEC Multisync 2A (free) (would have been two, but the second one let out the magic smoke). Apple 20MB SCSI drive (old Mac or late Apple II) Misc Sun SCSI, video and serial cables (free - being a regular customer has its benefits, like knowing they allow you to take a dip into the large box of assorted cables when purchasing items (no sign above the box); they don't require a one-to-one match-up of cables to items, so I get a lot of Mac and Sun goodies that way. They just don't want to price the cables or keep them with the items for sale, so they all go in a big box if they are not attached to things). I must have missed some SGI stuff - they had a couple of SGI keyboards on the keyboard shelf. Their new hours are going to be a pain. Ah, well. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 9 13:45:07 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Simon Relay Computer Re: Does Anyone Have A References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020409135948.0316fce0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <3CB336B3.7FB10585@rain.org> I have the original plans for Simon. They were scanned a few years ago and made available to listmembers on CD-ROM, but I don't know where the scans are at this point. Doug also has the plans and I *thought* he had made them available on the web. Someone had gotten copies of the plans from IIRC the Babbage Institute, but they were prohibited from distributing them. Check the ClassicCmp Archives for more information. Tony Eros wrote: > > Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? > > -- Tony > > At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > > wires and relays. > > > >Like this one? > > http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html > > > >-- Doug From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 13:54:09 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: DWBUA woes In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066580@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <20020409185409.3856.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >communication with the UET... there is nothing on the Unibus except > >the UET and a full boat of double-grant cards. > > What's on the VAXBI bus? Wads of stuff - KA820, 5 MS820 modules, KDB50, COMBOARD-BI and DEBNT. In fact, the BA32 is full except for the slot I keep open for the spare KA820. > > At this point, I suspect the DD11DK, the M9313 UET and/or the > > cables. I have three M9313 modules. One consistently generates > > a 12, two generate an E. What's not clear to me is if the tests are > > performed in numerical order > ...if the same logical sequence is true for the VAXBI widget, I would > guess that 0E means an "earlier" test failure that 12. The only reason why I even questioned it is the order of appearance in the flowchart in the ref manual. > >Anyone with any substantial DWBUA experience? > > Not me. I never broke mine :-) Here... let me help... ;-) > > I have the tech manual, > > Is it scanned - it may help :-) Help me? Nope... the dead trees with squiggles on it works just fine. Seriously, though. No. It's not scanned anywhere to the best of my knowledge. It's about 7mm thick - quite a few pages. > Remind me what processor you are running this on. A Scoprio of some > kind IIRC? Yes. An 8200 (the second processor has been out of its slot for _all_ of this debugging). > Which backplane: 12 slot or 24 slot VAXBI? 12-slot BI in a BA32 system enclosure - standard for the 8200. You could get them with 50/50 BI/Unibus or 100% BI with an external Unibus. We needed the extra room. > What exactly do you have in which slots of the VAXBI? I can go over it, but the processor is in the first physical slot, ID 2, the DWBUA is in the third physical slot, ID 0, the KDB50 is in the next two slots, ID 5. It goes memory, then COMBOARD-BI, then DEBNT. > The 8200 Owner's and Installation Guides are available at: > http://208.190.133.204/decimages/moremanuals.htm Right. I have those on paper anyway. > Nothing obvious leaps out at me from the Installation Guide. There is a > bit in bold that means "plug the cables into the M7166 the right way > round, and mind they are delicate". Right. They are labelled and keyed, anyway. > There's another bit that says M7166 in first slot, UET in last slot and > grant cards all the way along. That's in the DWBUA tech ref as well. > And another bit that says "don't snag the cables when closing the UNIBUS > cab" Naturally. > It doesn't say "make sure the four cables go to the right places" but > the diagram on p4-28 shows how they should go. Right. I marked them with arrows, etc. before I removed them. I even checked them one-by-one when I removed them for visual inspection last month. > The DWBUA needs a transition header installed (but I presume you would > not even have got this far into the tests without one! Indeed. No place to put the cables. As it turns out, this 8200 arrived to us with all transition headers installed (but I do have three spares). > Finally it says read the Tech Manual if the T1010 yellow LED does not > light!! Which is exactly where I am. So... anyone happen to have a UET lying around, unloved? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 9 13:54:08 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? In-Reply-To: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> from Paul Williams at "Apr 9, 2002 07:10:11 pm" Message-ID: <200204091854.g39Is9ef006604@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? I'm working on a patch for xterm, > and I have a query about its behaviour that could be answered by having > someone type five characters in local mode and reporting the results. > Unfortunately my VT52 is dead and I haven't spent the time to discover > why, yet. I promise that these five characters won't kill yours! > > I've got a VT100 I could run in VT52 mode and Kermit which does excellent VT52. I've also got a Zorba CP/M box which was VT52/H19 compatible... I don't know anyone with a still-existing VT52. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 9 13:51:22 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843B9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Williams [mailto:celigne@celigne.freeserve.co.uk] > I've just acquired two Lear-Siegler ADM-3As and was surprised to find > that one is brown and the other is blue. As trivial as this is, I was > wondering whether any other colours were available and whether this > signifies any difference in capabilities? I don't know, but mine is brown. If you find out about the blue one (or the brown one) I'd like to know :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 9 13:56:09 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <000f01c1dfea$31343190$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at "Apr 9, 2002 01:15:48 pm" Message-ID: <200204091856.g39Iu9dl006669@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> >> I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. >> I've tried various CP/M emulators but haven't found one >> I like yet. >> >> Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running >> under dos and/or windows? > > Without using Windows or DOS, the only CP/M you're > likely to run on a PC would be CP/M-86, and yes, I've > done it with a Zenith Z-150/151. > > >-Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits Actually you can run CP/M emulation under Linux/FreeBSD on it. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 9 06:00:30 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <20020409130209.B77547-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Bill Richman wrote: > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > wires and relays. > > So is there a complete set of schematics and/or construction diagrams > available anywhere on the web? I saw some pictures and a description - > maybe on the Blinkinlights website - but have never seen the articles > about building it anywhere. I think Doug Salot and Doug Coward might have this sort of stuff. I know Doug C. was attempting to find all the parts to put one together a few years back, but I don't know what eventual progress he made on that. Also, check Chuck Swiger's site that Doug S. just posted: http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html Edmund Berekely (the designer) wrote a book called "Computers: Their Operation and Applications" that in part detailed the design of the Simon. It has numerous diagrams and stuff. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 14:00:26 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020409190026.40802.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Salot wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Tony Eros wrote: > > > Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? > > Yes, they were published in a series of Radio Electronics articles (Oct > 1950 - Oct 1951). Berkeley also published them separatedly (Berkeley > Associates). The Charles Babbage Institute holds the copyrights for all > of Berkeley's publications, and they'll generally photocopy for a nominal > charge: > http://www.cbi.umn.edu/collections/inv/berkeley.htm Did anyone notice numbers 296 and 315? * #296: DEC PDP-9 at BE, 1968. (Box 50, folders 23-30) [correspondence, notes, field service manuals, invoices, BE financial report, computer use schedules and brochures] * #315: PDP-9 maintenance manual, 1968. (Box 52, folder 51-52) [memos and engineering drawings lists] -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 9 06:07:09 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Simon Relay Computer Re: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <3CB336B3.7FB10585@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I have the original plans for Simon. They were scanned a few years ago > and made available to listmembers on CD-ROM, but I don't know where the > scans are at this point. Doug also has the plans and I *thought* he had > made them available on the web. Someone had gotten copies of the plans > from IIRC the Babbage Institute, but they were prohibited from > distributing them. Check the ClassicCmp Archives for more information. Thanks for reminding me. I have a copy of this CD. It has 42 scanned pages in TIF format. Each file is around 8MB! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 14:07:44 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? In-Reply-To: <200204091854.g39Is9ef006604@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020409190744.66685.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Pechter wrote: > > Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? > > I don't know anyone with a still-existing VT52. > > Bill I have several, but all packed away in storage. In the past, I found that the VT52 emulation in the VT220 wasn't accurate enough to run the VTEDIT macro under OS/8. I bought my last one c. 1987 for $50. I haven't seen any lately. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 9 14:07:59 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843B9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: We also have a blue one. On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Williams [mailto:celigne@celigne.freeserve.co.uk] > > > I've just acquired two Lear-Siegler ADM-3As and was surprised to find > > that one is brown and the other is blue. As trivial as this is, I was > > wondering whether any other colours were available and whether this > > signifies any difference in capabilities? > > I don't know, but mine is brown. If you find out about the blue one > (or the brown one) I'd like to know :) > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 9 14:09:48 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> Message-ID: <3CB3589C.2714.47CD03EA@localhost> > I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. I've tried various > CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. > Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running under dos and/or > windows? Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). As a nice give away you also get an 8080 CPU for free. There have been two solutions AFAIR. One was booting MS-DOS and starting a bootloader for CP/M80 (a), the other was a CP/M disguise for MS-DOS (b). The Bootloader programm loaded an 8080 BIOS which supported hard MS-DOS Hard disks into memory, did setup the memory tables for the 8080 and switched into 8080 mode to boot CP/M from HD. There where several problems regarding disk storage, so the system worked only reliable from floppy disks. I heared also about a Version which booted from almost ordinary CP/M floppies. All switching code fitted into the PC boot sector. I never had this version, and I didn't play a lot with the hard disk version, but I used the other programm (b) for several years. You could start CP/M programms right from the MS-DOS command line, or switch into CP/M command line. The Programm itself replaced CP/M and redirected all CP/M functions to MS-DOS functions - thanks to the similarities :) There where even 'utilities' to switch DOS pathes wihile in CP/M, etc. pp. The performance was quite acceptable (faster than a 8080 at 5 MHz), and you could use almost all PC Hardware. I used this programm to run CP/M applications for several years under MS-DOS - I never had the time to redo them for the PC. I even kept the XT some time as CP/M machine when I already had an 386. The machine was also equipped with a screamer add on board, so the CPU was running most of the time at 8 MHz. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Apr 9 13:38:20 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Simon Relay Computer Re: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <3CB336B3.7FB10585@rain.org> Message-ID: The scans and CD-ROM don't ring a bell for me (and I didn't see any reference in the archives). Are you sure you're not thinking of the Mark-8 scans and CD-ROM Jim Willing produced a while back? -- Doug On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I have the original plans for Simon. They were scanned a few years ago > and made available to listmembers on CD-ROM, but I don't know where the > scans are at this point. Doug also has the plans and I *thought* he had > made them available on the web. Someone had gotten copies of the plans > from IIRC the Babbage Institute, but they were prohibited from > distributing them. Check the ClassicCmp Archives for more information. > > Tony Eros wrote: > > > > Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? > > > > -- Tony > > > > At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > > > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > > > wires and relays. > > > > > >Like this one? > > > http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html > > > > > >-- Doug > From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Tue Apr 9 14:13:16 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CB33D4C.24A0326B@Vishay.com> Paul, most newer VTs can be switched to VT52 mode in setup. I don't have a real VT52, but I can, as certainly many others here, easily offer to type in whatever you want me to using a VT320 or VT420 switched to VT52 mode. I might even dig out a VT100, which IIRC can also be set to VT52 mode. I think their behaviour will be close enough to a real VT52 to make your patch fully compatible. And, yes, thanks, I do know how to produce an ESC with those LKnnn keyboards. I assume at least one of the five characters is 0x1B? Andreas Paul Williams wrote: > > Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? I'm working on a patch for xterm, > and I have a query about its behaviour that could be answered by having > someone type five characters in local mode and reporting the results. > Unfortunately my VT52 is dead and I haven't spent the time to discover > why, yet. I promise that these five characters won't kill yours! -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 9 14:21:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CB33F1D.9F886766@compsys.to> >Paul Williams wrote: > Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? I'm working on a patch for xterm, > and I have a query about its behaviour that could be answered by having > someone type five characters in local mode and reporting the results. > Unfortunately my VT52 is dead and I haven't spent the time to discover > why, yet. I promise that these five characters won't kill yours! Jerome Fine replies: OK! But I have not turned mine on for at least two years. But I will if you send the five characters. By the way, I forget how to use local mode as well. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 9 14:24:53 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Native CP/M Message-ID: <001701c1dffc$3a257310$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > >> I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. > >> I've tried various CP/M emulators but haven't found one > >> I like yet. > >> > >> Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running > >> under dos and/or windows? > > > > Without using Windows or DOS, the only CP/M you're > > likely to run on a PC would be CP/M-86, and yes, I've > > done it with a Zenith Z-150/151. > > Actually you can run CP/M emulation under Linux/FreeBSD on it. > > Bill Well, he started out by saying he'd not seen an emulator he liked... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 14:23:55 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Pro350 with RT-11 and VR241 + Docs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020409192355.63006.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > For those that might be interested in what looks to be a nice > system, there's a Pro350 with RT-11 and the VR241 RGB monitor, plus > lots of documentation and disks, on eBay. As always, I have no > connection with it...am just passing it on. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2015582243 Nice. The only thing I'm missing from the picture is the orange wall of RT (got a set of v4 docs). The shipping is the killer on this, though. For someone who wants to get started, it's all there. I had to put together stuff from a myriad of sources over several years. My Pro350 came with PO/S; the VR241 goes with my VT240 (it worked great as a temporary monitor for my Gorf cabinet); and the RT-11 v5 distro came on its own. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sloboyko at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 14:25:31 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? In-Reply-To: <3CB32D9F.832D81EB@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <20020409192531.88228.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Mine is blue, but I know I've had my hands on a "putty" colored unit. Do you plan on restoring them. I have some instructions on how to do this, and I researched the CRT, and I found a company in the UK that had new CRT's very cheap (like, maybe 15 pounds as I recall). I got mine in the US for about $50 USD (black and white, of course!). --- Paul Williams wrote: > I've just acquired two Lear-Siegler ADM-3As and was > surprised to find > that one is brown and the other is blue. As trivial > as this is, I was > wondering whether any other colours were available > and whether this > signifies any difference in capabilities? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 9 14:25:42 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Simon Relay Computer Re: Does Anyone Have A References: Message-ID: <3CB34036.DD54E8FA@rain.org> I distinctly remember scanning and burning the CD-ROMs for several listmembers. Since I rarely will dispose of such stuff, there is probably a copy of the CD-ROM around here someplace ...but where :). I also got a copy of the Mark-8 and IIRC TV Typewriter on CD from Jim, but this is something different. You and I are the only two people *I* know of who have the original plans on the list. Doug Salot wrote: > > The scans and CD-ROM don't ring a bell for me (and I didn't see any > reference in the archives). Are you sure you're not thinking of the > Mark-8 scans and CD-ROM Jim Willing produced a while back? > > -- Doug > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > I have the original plans for Simon. They were scanned a few years ago > > and made available to listmembers on CD-ROM, but I don't know where the > > scans are at this point. Doug also has the plans and I *thought* he had > > made them available on the web. Someone had gotten copies of the plans > > from IIRC the Babbage Institute, but they were prohibited from > > distributing them. Check the ClassicCmp Archives for more information. > > > > Tony Eros wrote: > > > > > > Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? > > > > > > -- Tony > > > > > > At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > >On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > > > > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > > > > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > > > > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > > > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > > > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > > > > wires and relays. > > > > > > > >Like this one? > > > > http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html > > > > > > > >-- Doug > > From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 9 14:31:28 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: hp64000 (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help this chap? It is not my field. - don ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 08:56:35 +0200 From: Ciril Prevc To: donm@cts.com Subject: hp64000 Hi. We have a problem with files on HP64000 system with password protection. We lose even MgR password. So we need a help. Do you know somebody who have a solution for our problem. Best regards ciril From bill at timeguy.com Tue Apr 9 14:37:30 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Plans for Simon Relay Computer (was: Re: Does Anyone Have A) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020409143610.P77547-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I have the original plans for Simon. They were scanned a few years ago > > and made available to listmembers on CD-ROM, but I don't know where the > > scans are at this point. Doug also has the plans and I *thought* he had > > made them available on the web. Someone had gotten copies of the plans > > from IIRC the Babbage Institute, but they were prohibited from > > distributing them. Check the ClassicCmp Archives for more information. > > Thanks for reminding me. I have a copy of this CD. It has 42 scanned > pages in TIF format. Each file is around 8MB! > So what would a person have to do to get a copy of said CD? Hmmm? :-) From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 14:41:57 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB33D4C.24A0326B@Vishay.com> Message-ID: <3CB34405.2061019B@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Andreas Freiherr wrote: > > most newer VTs can be switched to VT52 mode in setup. I don't have a > real VT52, but I can, as certainly many others here, easily offer to > type in whatever you want me to using a VT320 or VT420 switched to > VT52 mode. Thanks Andreas, but I have working examples of most newer DEC terminals. I have a complete state diagram for the behaviour of the these terminals in VT52 mode and I was now trying to discover any differences. You're right about compatibility of the patch of course, because xterm in VT52 mode should behave the same as any VT100 to VT500 in VT52 mode. However, having been completist about the ANSI-mode parser[1], I would like to finish the job for the VT52 itself. [1] http://vt100.net/emu/dec_ansi_parser -- only for insomniacs! Cheers, Paul From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 14:45:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: parting out MAC IIX References: Message-ID: <001101c1dfff$101d6160$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've snagged a MAC IIx, which is one of those BIG MAC's with the NUBUS. It has a fancy video card of some sort and an ethernet board if anybody's interested. I bought it for the PSU, so anything else is available. Dick From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 14:43:48 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <200204091854.g39Is9ef006604@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3CB34474.55786FA4@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Bill Pechter wrote: > > I've got a VT100 I could run in VT52 mode and Kermit which does > excellent VT52. I've also got a Zorba CP/M box which was VT52/H19 > compatible... Thanks Bill, but I am specifically searching for differences between a real VT52 and any later terminal in VT52 mode. Yes, I am that obsessed with trivia! Regards, Paul From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 14:49:59 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:11 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <20020409190744.66685.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CB345E7.873F4713@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > In the past, I found that the VT52 emulation in the VT220 wasn't > accurate enough to run the VTEDIT macro under OS/8. That's very interesting. VT52 mode is so simple that I would have thought it was difficult to get wrong. Mind you, the VT420 in VT52 mode can produce garbage on the screen when stressed by vttest, so if DEC couldn't get it right ... > I bought my last one c. 1987 for $50. > I haven't seen any lately. A few months ago I was contacted by a gentleman who had a VT52 and a VT180 in his loft, complete with loads of manuals and software. He was happy to donate it to a good home. The VT180 is working, but I haven't had time to play with it yet. The VT52/VT55 manuals he supplied are now all online. Regards, Paul From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:10 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002501c1e001$6efabdc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This might be a good time to point out that the presence of PROMs doesn't automatically imply the presence of "microcode" since PROMs were often used for instruction decoding and other simple logic functions. Microcode implies the presence of a low-level processor, and I saw little of that up to the point at which bit-slice, e.g. AM2900-series or Intel 3000-series, became popular, though PROMs did appear from time to time in functions other than simple microcode. I've built CPU's using standard TTL MSI/SSI devices, without any sort of microcode, and, since that was in the days before PALs, bipolar PROMs were the only handy programmable device that allowed simple localized decoding and steering without discarding resources. The fact they can easily provide a preset to a cycle counter, based on their inputs even though there might be a "sparse" lookup table for that function, saved both time and real estate, often rendered PROMs the vehicle of choice. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 12:34 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > Playing aroud a bit with TTL using SSI parts, I get about 8-10 chips per > > bit on the average for the alu. For 16 bit computer that is about 160 > > chips. I would say 1/3 more for control or about 250 chips total. Does > > this sound right people with 16 bit TTL computers? > > IF by 'SSI' you mean just simple gates and flipflips ('74, '76, etc) then > it sounds far too few. > > The PDP11/05 was 2 full hex-height boards just for the CPU, so around 200 > chips. It used mostly TTL, but also some PROMs containing the microcode. > And the TTL included chips rather more complicated than just gates -- > things like 16*4 RAMs, 4 bit latches, multiplexers, etc. > > The Philips P850 was about the same number of chips, but with no > microcode PROMs. Mostly simple gate chips, but also '181 ALUs, 16*4 RAMs, > decoders, etc. And it's really an 8 bit machine at the hardware level. It > appears to be 16 bit to the programmer, but the ALU is only 8 bits wide > (yes, every ALU operation takes 2 cycles, the instruction word is fetched > 8 bits at a time, and so on). > > -tony > > From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:00:25 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB33F1D.9F886766@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3CB34859.E8AC4221@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > OK! But I have not turned mine on for at least two > years. But I will if you send the five characters. By the > way, I forget how to use local mode as well. Thank you. The five characters are: "A" "/" "B" "C" The output on later terminals in VT52 mode is "AC", but from reading the maintenance manual I suspect that a VT52 will output "ABC". To set the terminal up for local operation, tip the unit up on its rear. Notice the two rotary switches. Use a screwdriver or coin to turn S1 (the one on the right) to its most counterclockwise position, Position 1. Turn the other switch, S2, its most clockwise position, and then counterclockwise one position. This is Position G. Cheers, Paul From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:04:36 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? References: <20020409192531.88228.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CB34954.D9F3C190@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Loboyko Steve wrote: > > Do you plan on restoring them. I have some > instructions on how to do this, and I researched the > CRT, and I found a company in the UK that had new > CRT's very cheap (like, maybe 15 pounds as I recall). > I got mine in the US for about $50 USD (black and > white, of course!). Yes, I would like to get them working but I haven't started even the most basic tests yet. I always seem to have too much to do with documenting the live ones! Cheers, Paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:08:45 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: [OT] classiccmp-owner messages... In-Reply-To: <001101c1dfff$101d6160$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: I've spotted two messages from the classiccmp-owner address that got whacked by my postfix header_checks filter. Jay, if the list was trying to communicate with me for whatever reason, can you forward the messages to geneb@uridium.deltasoft.com? That will get it by the spam filter so I can find out what's triggering it. g. (sorry for the noise folks!) From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 9 15:17:56 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Hi everybody. This isn't strictly on topic, but I think the intent of the question makes it close enough. I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? Note that I do know that discs are written in 2048 byte blocks, and the answer won't affect its performance in writing disks on these systems. I am also aware that doing this for the long term may needlessly shorten the life of the drive. As I said above, it is more for curiosity, and eventually I would like to know that in case my RRD42 dies, I have a backup. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 9 03:37:46 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? Message-ID: <001001c1dfa1$d55c28c0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> You can use any dec terminal, set it to VT52 mode and then try the results. The Video SRM (dec internal) made the behavour a standard for all VT52/100/220/320 and all the rest. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Paul Williams To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? >Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? I'm working on a patch for xterm, >and I have a query about its behaviour that could be answered by having >someone type five characters in local mode and reporting the results. >Unfortunately my VT52 is dead and I haven't spent the time to discover >why, yet. I promise that these five characters won't kill yours! From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 15:37:49 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <000f01c1e006$6a5ba0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's likely that if your CD-RW drive is a SCSI type, you'll be able to do what you want. If it's an IDE type, you'll probably best forget it. I've got no experience with CD-RW's, but LOTS of it with CD-R's, and I've followed the development of CR-RW and DVD-R drives with considerable interest. However, I'm not a CD-RW fan because of the media cost. If the drive manufacturer can profide the command set and you can figure out how to create a driver for it for the target environment, you can do what you want. However, there's lots of learning curve. We struggled for three years just getting a standard adopted for bootable CD's. I suspect this may get to be even more tangled. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks > Hi everybody. This isn't strictly on topic, but I think the intent > of the question makes it close enough. > > I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious > about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it > as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. > > Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other > CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? > > Note that I do know that discs are written in 2048 byte blocks, and > the answer won't affect its performance in writing disks on these > systems. I am also aware that doing this for the long term may > needlessly shorten the life of the drive. As I said above, it is > more for curiosity, and eventually I would like to know that in case > my RRD42 dies, I have a backup. :) > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:59:32 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <001001c1dfa1$d55c28c0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3CB35634.DD3BB1E8@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Allison wrote: > > You can use any dec terminal, set it to VT52 mode > and then try the results. The Video SRM (dec internal) > made the behavour a standard for all VT52/100/220/320 > and all the rest. I think that in the case I described to Jerome, there is a difference between a VT52 and a later terminal in VT52 mode. The fact that the surmised difference is insignificant hasn't stopped me from being curious about it! The most diligent of terminal emulator authors will fall into large holes left by the external specifications, so I'm doing some work to be as precise as I imagine the Video SRM is. Is that the document containing chunks of Pascal that make a reference emulator? Regards, Paul From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 16:02:51 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> Message-ID: I know that this is not exactly what you asked... but, there is no reason that you have to develop CP/M under CP/M. If you like linux, the ASxxxx cross assemblers from Alan Baldwin build and run just fine. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 9 16:06:16 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > It's likely that if your CD-RW drive is a SCSI type, you'll > be able to do what > you want. If it's an IDE type, you'll probably best forget it. I should have mentioned that -- it's SCSI, of course. > However, I'm not a CD-RW fan because of the media cost. BEGIN off-topic-moment The only reason I'm particularly interested in the RW capability of this drive is for some experimentation with Linux on a Sega Dreamcast. I have it booting from CD-R, but if the Dreamcast will use an RW disc, it may save me money and coasters in the long-run. END off-topic-moment Perhaps it may also be useful for transferring data between two systems with these drives (...or mine is an external, so the drive could be carried), in the absence of a better removable media solution. I must admit that last time I saw them, they were megabyte-per-megabyte cheaper than any other common re-useable removable storage. > If the drive manufacturer can profide the command set and you > can figure out > how to create a driver for it for the target environment, you > can do what you > want. However, there's lots of learning curve. We struggled > for three years > just getting a standard adopted for bootable CD's. I suspect > this may get to > be even more tangled. I think that I should have been clearer here too -- what I'm wondering is not whether it will work with the environment, since I'm sure that cdrecord will compile and drive it in nearly any environment I'm likely to need. The question is -- in the case of my other drives going out, would it be possible to use this drive as the primary boot device for one of these systems. That, of course, requires the slightly odd (for a CD) block-size. It's likely that I'll just plug it into the VAX and try booting VMS from it -- that would answer the question pretty quickly. :) I was just hoping that somebody knew right off... Thanks, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 9 16:08:36 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066586@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Allison wrote: > >You can use any dec terminal, set it to VT52 mode >and then try the results. The Video SRM (dec internal) >made the behavour a standard for all VT52/100/220/320 >and all the rest. My quick check of the the VT102 and VT220 manuals does not show "ESC /" as a recognised emulated VT52 sequence. The VT100 manual makes it quite clear how to react to random ESCape sequences. It is pretty silent on VT52 emulation mode. I suspect the VSRM is too (if we still have one in the office, I'll check tomorrow). When I wrote a VT102 emulator, many moons ago, I know that since most VT52 escape sequences were of the form "ESC x" then I would have ignored "ESC x" for an unrecognised "x" and displayed "ABC" when fed "A ESC / BC". It seems that real VT terminals do not do this. The only way to determine whether the VT1xx is a faithful VT52 emulator is to see what a real VT52 does. (Or read the schematics, which I believe are online). Antonio From ccraft at springsips.com Tue Apr 9 16:11:03 2002 From: ccraft at springsips.com (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... In-Reply-To: <20020409184307.36386.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020409184307.36386.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020409211102.3AF1861107@mamacass.springsips.com> Just a question... do they ever get AS/400 stuff? I need a keyboard and some cables for a 3151? terminal and the twinax to plug 'em together. Tnx es 73 Chris KI0EW On Tuesday 09 April 2002 12:43, you wrote: > I went in over lunch to see what was new/old, and discovered they are > closing for inventory for a few weeks, but when they reopen in May, > they will only be open one day a week. The idea is that they will post > stuff to a web page so you can see what's worth a trip down on the single > day they do business. The guys who work there seem to think that > management > doesn't understand that stuff won't flow out as fast and they'll have > a backlog. They figure the new hours will last as long as the floor space > does. > > In the meantime, they had PowerMac 6100s for $5, 7100s for $10-$15 (I left > them there; already have a 6100; just got an AV monitor from them for $5) > I also saw a couple of A-sized HP pen plotters, a bunch of free 14" VGA > monitors (probably to clear them out before inventory) and the usual > desks and IBM Selectric typewriters and $10 laser printers. > > I did pick up a few things... > > Tektronix 502A dual-beam scope *with* Tek tilt cart > Heath ES-600 function generator (q. 2) > DEST PC SCAN 2000 (free) > NEC Multisync 2A (free) (would have been two, but the second one let out > the magic smoke). > Apple 20MB SCSI drive (old Mac or late Apple II) > Misc Sun SCSI, video and serial cables (free - being a regular customer > has its benefits, like knowing they allow you to take a dip into the > large box of assorted cables when purchasing items (no sign above the > box); they don't require a one-to-one match-up of cables to items, so I > get a lot of Mac and Sun goodies that way. They just don't want to > price the cables or keep them with the items for sale, so they all go in > a big box if they are not attached to things). > > I must have missed some SGI stuff - they had a couple of SGI keyboards on > the keyboard shelf. Their new hours are going to be a pain. Ah, well. > > -ethan > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From red at bears.org Tue Apr 9 16:20:16 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > The only reason I'm particularly interested in the RW capability of > this drive is for some experimentation with Linux on a Sega Dreamcast. I have similar aspirations, but... > I have it booting from CD-R, but if the Dreamcast will use an RW disc, > it may save me money and coasters in the long-run. I have read in many documents that the Dreamcast will not read an RW disc. However, I have not yet tried it myself. ok r. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Apr 9 16:27:50 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020409212750.GC197555@uiuc.edu> I do know, from experience, that any SCSI Plextor CDROM/CD-R/CD-RW will boot basically anything -- Sparc, SGI, RS/6000, HP,.... I've tried plextors of varying ages (old 8plex caddy-loader up to a 12/4/32 CD-RW that's about 1 year old) and they all work great... Christopher Smith said: > Hi everybody. This isn't strictly on topic, but I think the intent > of the question makes it close enough. > > I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious > about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it > as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. > > Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other > CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? > > Note that I do know that discs are written in 2048 byte blocks, and > the answer won't affect its performance in writing disks on these > systems. I am also aware that doing this for the long term may > needlessly shorten the life of the drive. As I said above, it is > more for curiosity, and eventually I would like to know that in case > my RRD42 dies, I have a backup. :) > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 9 16:31:03 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Craft [mailto:ccraft@springsips.com] > Just a question... do they ever get AS/400 stuff? I need a > keyboard and some > cables for a 3151? terminal and the twinax to plug 'em together. This reminds me -- I have one of these IBM terminals with a twinax plug on it. Is there a reason it couldn't be adapted to use serial? In other words, can I use it, or do I need to wait until an AS/400 falls into my lap? (*ouch*) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 9 16:35:29 2002 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB33F1D.9F886766@compsys.to> Message-ID: <00ef01c1e00e$78723880$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Oh I wish I had one - the clack clack of the solenoid pounding on the plate below the keyboard... memories.. I'll just have to use my VT-05, the VT52's grand daddy L;) anybody have a termcap or specs/manuals for one of these? heinz Subject: Re: Does anyone have a live VT52? > >Paul Williams wrote: > > > Does anyone have a live VT52 to hand? I'm working on a patch for xterm, > > and I have a query about its behaviour that could be answered by having > > someone type five characters in local mode and reporting the results. > > Unfortunately my VT52 is dead and I haven't spent the time to discover > > why, yet. I promise that these five characters won't kill yours! > > Jerome Fine replies: > > OK! But I have not turned mine on for at least two > years. But I will if you send the five characters. By the > way, I forget how to use local mode as well. From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 16:33:50 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066586@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CB35E3E.FD000C52@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > My quick check of the the VT102 and VT220 manuals does not show > "ESC /" as a recognised emulated VT52 sequence. The VT100 manual > makes it quite clear how to react to random ESCape sequences. It is > pretty silent on VT52 emulation mode. Exactly. I suspect that later terminals ignored all of "ESC / B" (in fact, "/" could be any character from column 2, SP -> "/") because the terminal would be impervious to a host that incorrectly echoed back the ident response. > I suspect the VSRM is too (if we still have one in the office, I'll > check tomorrow). Ooh, you tease! Any chance of that document escaping altogether? > The only way to determine whether the VT1xx is a faithful VT52 > emulator is to see what a real VT52 does. (Or read the schematics, > which I believe are online). They are online, but the schematics don't list the contents of the ROM containing the actual "program" executed by the VT52. The maintenance manual gives a nice description of the instruction set, but no listing. Of course, deliberate decisions are made about how faithful a later model would be when emulating an earlier one. After all, a VT220 in VT100 mode doesn't emulate a VT100; it emulates a VT102 (or VT100 plus Level 2 Editing Extension, if you like). Cheers, Paul From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 9 16:39:00 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <002201c1df57$ec63d940$19000240@default> <000b01c1df75$82cfaae0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <006c01c1e00f$6573be60$06000240@default> No this was one of the first real personal computers designed by Edmund Berkeley back 1950 and sold for about $300. By 1959 over 400 plans were sold. It was on the cover of the 1950 issue of Radio Electronics do not know the month for sure but it looks like October. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Engdahl" To: Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Does Anyone Have A > Do you mean that kid's game with the blinking lights that you > had to memorize and push the buttons in the same order? I just > this evening tossed one. I found it in the attic in many pieces. > The circuit board looked intact. Shall I go dive for it? > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive > Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl@safeaccess.com > > "The things which are seen are temporary, > but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John R. Keys Jr." > To: > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 7:48 PM > Subject: Does Anyone Have A > > > > Simon as shown on the Blinkenlights web site? > > > > > > From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 9 16:45:26 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB33F1D.9F886766@compsys.to> <00ef01c1e00e$78723880$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <3CB360F6.732ED89B@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Heinz Wolter wrote: > > I'll just have to use my VT-05, the VT52's grand daddy L;) > anybody have a termcap or specs/manuals for one of these? David Gesswein has scanned the Reference Manual and Maintenance Manual and made them available on http://www.pdp8.net. I have converted the Reference Manual to HTML at http://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/. I think there is enough information to construct a termcap, although its capabilities are rather limited. Regards, Paul From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Tue Apr 9 16:58:57 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <200204092158.AA02343@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: Christopher Smith > To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" > Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:17:56 -0500 > > I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious > about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it > as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. > > Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other > CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? > > Note that I do know that discs are written in 2048 byte blocks, and > the answer won't affect its performance in writing disks on these > systems. I am also aware that doing this for the long term may > needlessly shorten the life of the drive. As I said above, it is > more for curiosity, and eventually I would like to know that in case > my RRD42 dies, I have a backup. :) A minute or two with Google led me to < http://sony.storagesupport.com/dlagreement.zulu?dlid=cdrw/downloads/Crx145s-c/CRX145SUM.pdf > which is the manual for this drive. Looking carefully I see that it has 5 pairs of configuration jumper pins. Three for setting the SCSI ID, one for termination, and one "test block do not jumper". Your guess is as good as anyone else's. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 9 17:03:59 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Plans for Simon Relay Computer (was: Re: Does Anyone Have A) References: <20020409143610.P77547-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <3CB3654F.236E3A06@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill Richman wrote: > > Thanks for reminding me. I have a copy of this CD. It has 42 scanned > > pages in TIF format. Each file is around 8MB! > > > > So what would a person have to do to get a copy of said CD? Hmmm? :-) And just what else is on that CD? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 9 17:07:52 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious > about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it > as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. > > Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other > CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? Haven't tried my CD-RW on a non-Intel box as boot device, but I know that the 512-byte boot block is not the only issue. For instance, I have a Sony 8x reader with an IBM "microcode upgrade" that will boot my SparcStation, every RS6k I own, and my Alphas, ***unless*** it's a VMS/OpenVMS CD. The BabyVAXen also won't boot off it. The Indy won't. OTOH, My Plextor 32x, May It Rest In Peace (I dropped it!), would boot all the above except VMS CDs. I know that early RS/6000s did some sense checking that narrowed the field considerably. I _guess_ that VMS does the same. About the rest, I'm clueless. Back to reading 512-byte blocks, both my old TEAC 55R and my new Yamaha SCSI CDRW have a jumper to allow 512-byte reads, as do most of the better SCSI readers. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 16:26:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? In-Reply-To: <200204091854.g39Is9ef006604@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Apr 9, 2 02:54:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/499394ab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 16:56:30 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <3CB3589C.2714.47CD03EA@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 9, 2 09:09:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/6d988a98/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 16:59:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <001701c1dffc$3a257310$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 9, 2 03:24:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/ac67d4c4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 17:12:24 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002501c1e001$6efabdc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 9, 2 02:02:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/f771c0d2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 17:16:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066586@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Apr 9, 2 02:08:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/fe493fbf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 17:23:07 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? In-Reply-To: <00ef01c1e00e$78723880$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> from "Heinz Wolter" at Apr 9, 2 05:35:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020409/b16d46f2/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 9 17:23:22 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: <20020409130209.B77547-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <00be01c1e015$2cf3e140$06000240@default> The 1950 and 1951 Radio Electronics had the article on how to build it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Richman" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Does Anyone Have A > > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > wires and relays. > > So is there a complete set of schematics and/or construction diagrams > available anywhere on the web? I saw some pictures and a description - > maybe on the Blinkinlights website - but have never seen the articles > about building it anywhere. > > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 9 17:37:55 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020409183755.00f5f338@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Christopher Smith may have mentioned these words: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Craft [mailto:ccraft@springsips.com] > >> Just a question... do they ever get AS/400 stuff? I need a >> keyboard and some >> cables for a 3151? terminal and the twinax to plug 'em together. > >This reminds me -- I have one of these IBM terminals with a twinax >plug on it. Is there a reason it couldn't be adapted to use serial? > >In other words, can I use it, or do I need to wait until an AS/400 >falls into my lap? (*ouch*) AFAIK, you'll need to wait for a broken lap... the AS/400 twinax runs at 1.5Mbit and I don't think that changes at all; besides, I thought that the AS/400 ran EBCDIC, not ASCII, which could make for some interesting looking login screens... ;-) But I've only worked a little bit here-n-there on AS/400's; for all I know I could be full of condensed milk. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 17:38:01 2002 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com>; from Don Caprio on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:58:57AM -0700 References: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> Message-ID: <20020409183801.A24985@spies.com> Don Caprio writes: > I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. > I've tried various CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. Have you tried MyZ80 by Simeon Cran ? It's very clean and tight. I've run it in true MSDOS as well as inside DOSemu for Linux. If you can't find it, I'm sure I have it kicking around somewhere. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 9 17:41:04 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <002501c1e001$6efabdc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB36E00.702CB756@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've built CPU's using standard TTL MSI/SSI devices, without any sort of > microcode, and, since that was in the days before PALs, bipolar PROMs were the > only handy programmable device that allowed simple localized decoding and > steering without discarding resources. The fact they can easily provide a > preset to a cycle counter, based on their inputs even though there might be a > "sparse" lookup table for that function, saved both time and real estate, > often rendered PROMs the vehicle of choice. The main reason I have never played with them is I could never find a Fuse Prom Burner schematic that looked reasonable. I still would like to do a TTL computer with fused based proms ( or EEPROM's as modern substitute )for control logic. I am just finishing up a nice FPGA design but thinking this is going to be a pain to get a serial prom and have it burned too. 50,000 sure ! quantity 1, HA-HA you must be kidding. (EPC1441LC20 altera 440,800 bits -- any place in Canada). While TTL is low density you don't need to pay $$$ for a license for modern programiable logic, have the software needed 5+ years down the road! ( That is assuming TTL is still around 10 years from now ) > > The PDP11/05 was 2 full hex-height boards just for the CPU, so around 200 > > chips. It used mostly TTL, but also some PROMs containing the microcode. > > And the TTL included chips rather more complicated than just gates -- > > things like 16*4 RAMs, 4 bit latches, multiplexers, etc. This was ball park figures. A 4 bit shift register ,4 bit up counter ,dual 4-1 muliplexer would be the typical ALU parts. I was looking at 74HCXX chips as 74LSXX is harder to find and lots more power. How ever a 74LS382 style alu would be used rather than a 74LS181 if LS parts were used. A 8 bit x 1 register file is a 8 bit addressable latch and a 8/1 multiplexer. The alu design is for a undefined 24 bit processor with a classic style of architecture.A PDP-11 has byte operations and a complex opcode where this architecture would be more PDP-8 style on a single 24 bit word. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 9 17:41:18 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066591@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Ooh, you tease! Any chance of that >document escaping altogether? Assuming it's still there, and that you get Boundless and/or COMPAQ (and/or HP if you don't get your skates on ...) to OK it, then there should be no problem :-) >They are online, but the schematics don't list the contents of the ROM I thought you had a VT52 - so just dump the ROM. Actually, dump the ROM anyway - it must be past its sell-by date by now! >Of course, deliberate decisions are made about how faithful a later >model would be when emulating an earlier one. After all, a VT220 in >VT100 mode doesn't emulate a VT100; it emulates a VT102 (or VT100 plus >Level 2 Editing Extension, if you like). Yes - and I doubt that the VT52 emulator makes *any* attempt at emulating the VT52 quirks. In fact, it's quite possible that noone knew all the VT52 quirks and so the VSRM may have required only adherence to the published VT52 information (which admittedly may have had internal-use-only enhancements). When I wrote that VT102 emulator, way back when, the customer for whom we were implementing it had requested VT103 emulation on the basis that it was a higher number than VT102 and so must be better. I never saw one in real life but the manual documented it as a VT100 + LSI bus (no, I did not implement the LSI bus ...). I suppose I should just count myslef lucky that they didn't happen to know about the VT105 or VT125 or VT131/VT132! Antonio From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 9 17:43:25 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... In-Reply-To: <20020409184307.36386.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Tektronix 502A dual-beam scope *with* Tek tilt cart I bought a 502 and a 502A for a total of $5 last year at auction. I've not yet powered them up, as they need to be restored, but I have located a source for service manuals. If you want a copy of the manual, and don't mind waiting awhile, I'm going to be ordering them along with quite a few other Tek manuals. Anyone else out there a Tektronix fan/collector? > Heath ES-600 function generator (q. 2) Nice...I believe you can get manuals for these too, but they have to be obtained from a 3rd party, since Heath no longer offers them. > NEC Multisync 2A (free) (would have been two, but the second one let > out the magic smoke). I'm viewing this text on one of those right now. It does currently need some caps replaced, but works good after it warms up ;) The second monitor probably blew one of the transistors in the switching supply. I've seen quite a few of the old 2A monitors do that. It's often caused by (you guessed it) bad caps. > I must have missed some SGI stuff - they had a couple of SGI keyboards > on the keyboard shelf. Their new hours are going to be a pain. Ah, > well. Do keyboards and mice for the old 4D systems turn up very often? I've been needing to track some down, but I haven't bothered since I don't have room to set the systems up for normal use yet. I'll probably end up using a dumb terminal more often than the console anyway. -Toth From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 9 09:44:36 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Plans for Simon Relay Computer (was: Re: Does Anyone Have A) In-Reply-To: <3CB3654F.236E3A06@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Bill Richman wrote: > > > > Thanks for reminding me. I have a copy of this CD. It has 42 scanned > > > pages in TIF format. Each file is around 8MB! > > > > > > > So what would a person have to do to get a copy of said CD? Hmmm? :-) > > And just what else is on that CD? Nothing save for the 42 scanned pages which I believe is the complete construction series. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cpg at aladdin.de Tue Apr 9 18:14:11 2002 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Native CP/M Message-ID: <87y9fw1n3w.fsf@power.cnet.aladdin.de> Hi, On 04/09/2002 09:09:48 PM ZE2 "Hans Franke" wrote: >As a nice give away you also get an 8080 CPU for free. There >have been two solutions AFAIR. One was booting MS-DOS and >starting a bootloader for CP/M80 (a), the other was a CP/M >disguise for MS-DOS (b). > >The Bootloader programm loaded an 8080 BIOS which supported >hard MS-DOS Hard disks into memory, did setup the memory >tables for the 8080 and switched into 8080 mode to boot CP/M >from HD. There where several problems regarding disk storage, >so the system worked only reliable from floppy disks. I heared >also about a Version which booted from almost ordinary CP/M >floppies. All switching code fitted into the PC boot sector. >I never had this version, and I didn't play a lot with the >hard disk version, but I used the other programm (b) for >several years. > >You could start CP/M programms right from the MS-DOS command >line, or switch into CP/M command line. The Programm itself >replaced CP/M and redirected all CP/M functions to MS-DOS >functions - thanks to the similarities :) There where even >'utilities' to switch DOS pathes wihile in CP/M, etc. pp. >The performance was quite acceptable (faster than a 8080 at >5 MHz), and you could use almost all PC Hardware. > >I used this programm to run CP/M applications for several >years under MS-DOS - I never had the time to redo them for >the PC. I even kept the XT some time as CP/M machine when >I already had an 386. The machine was also equipped with a >screamer add on board, so the CPU was running most of the >time at 8 MHz. I have a V20 PC-XT in working order. Do you still have those tools. I'd like to try out CP/M on it. IIRC, the German c't magazine once had such tools. Back then I already had this V20 PC-XT, but didn't want to mess with CP/M. After just having made the transition from C64 to PC (MS-DOS), CP/M was "old stuff" back then :-) regards, chris From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 18:18:35 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020409212750.GC197555@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <003a01c1e01c$dfdd1a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You may have the answer, here, in that IF it's a SCSI device (which it is) and IF it's capable of behaving as a reader (which it is) then it's up to the SCSI subsystem to move the data into the system. IF the device, in whatever mode it "comes up" in is able to read the SCSI CD, then it should be no different than any other CD drive, irrespective of the ability to write the device. I guess it all comes down to the state in which the system finds itself when it's trying to read the SCSI channel for boot. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Wright" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks > I do know, from experience, that any SCSI Plextor CDROM/CD-R/CD-RW will boot > basically anything -- Sparc, SGI, RS/6000, HP,.... I've tried plextors of > varying ages (old 8plex caddy-loader up to a 12/4/32 CD-RW that's about 1 year > old) and they all work great... > > Christopher Smith said: > > Hi everybody. This isn't strictly on topic, but I think the intent > > of the question makes it close enough. > > > > I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious > > about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it > > as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. > > > > Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other > > CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? > > > > Note that I do know that discs are written in 2048 byte blocks, and > > the answer won't affect its performance in writing disks on these > > systems. I am also aware that doing this for the long term may > > needlessly shorten the life of the drive. As I said above, it is > > more for curiosity, and eventually I would like to know that in case > > my RRD42 dies, I have a backup. :) > > > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 18:27:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <004801c1e01e$19117620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Tony, you're wandering into the semantic quagmire of distinction between hardware and firmware and software. The difference between microcode and other firmware, used, for example, to define a state machine, is that the "microcode" is executed by a processor of some sort that is an entity unto itself. Microcode is used in two-layered designs, wherein the microengine executes the microcode which, in effect, fully defines the system of which it is a component. In some cases, changing the microcode will completely redefine the instruction set, register set, cache configuration, etc. In some cases, it can even redefine the word width. That's certainly seldom the case with state machines. RISC machines were an outgrowth of work on developing code for microengines in their native mode in hopes of capitalizing on their (then) high speed relative to conventional processors. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:12 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > This might be a good time to point out that the presence of PROMs doesn't > > automatically imply the presence of "microcode" since PROMs were often used > > Ture. Similarly you can (IMHO) have microcode without PROMs (or other > memory devices)[1]. In fact I am still looking for an unambiguous > distinction between microcode and a state machine. Since the circuitry is > so similar, I suspect whether something is microcoded is more to do with > the design philiosophy than the circuity ;-). > > [1] A PROM is basically a 1-of-n decoder with some of the outputs ORed > together (selecting which outputs are ORed for each output bit is more > commonly called 'programming the PROM' :-)). So in theory you could take > a tree of '138s and OR the appropriate outputs together to make a > pseudoPROM. If you put that in place of the microcode PROMs in a > processor the circuitry would be electrically identical [2]. And I can't > see a good reason to claim that the result is no longer microcoded. > > [2] OK, the propagation delay would mean it would no longer run at > anything like the same clock rate, but.... > > > for instruction decoding and other simple logic functions. Microcode implies > > the presence of a low-level processor, and I saw little of that up to the > > point at which bit-slice, e.g. AM2900-series or Intel 3000-series, became > > Then I have to conclude you didn't look at many of the early 1970's > minicomputers..... Many (but by no means all, agreed) of those machines > used TTL-based processors which were certainly microcoded by any > reasonable definition of 'microcode'. > > In particular every PDP11 with the exception of the 11/20 (and therefore > also the 11/15) is microcoded. And no PDP11 I've ever seen uses 2900 or > 3000 bit-slice chips for the main CPU. > > The Philips P850 is not microcoded. All other P800 series machines I've > seen are, but those used either custom Philips bitslice parts (SPALU -- > Scratch Pad Arithmetic Logic Unit) or AM2900 series. I believe the P855 > was a microcoded TTL design, but I don't have the schematics to check > > > popular, though PROMs did appear from time to time in functions other than > > simple microcode. > > Not as commonly as you might think. At the time PROMs were expensive and > not many people had programmers [2]. Use for 'random logic' replacement > was not common. For example the PDP11/45 (which uses PROMs for the > microcode store) has one board which is almost entirely gates (including > a lot of AOIs) for microocde branch control. > > > [2] It is claimed this is one reason that one of the first boot ROMs for the > PDP11 series was a diode metrix not a fusible link PROM. Everybody has a > soldering iron and cutters so can reprogram the diode matrix :-) [And > as a result I have a scheamtic of the bootstrap loader for one of my > PDP11s...] > > -tony > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 18:46:54 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020409234654.27692.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Tektronix 502A dual-beam scope *with* Tek tilt cart > > I bought a 502 and a 502A for a total of $5 last year at auction. I've > not yet powered them up, as they need to be restored, I was told by the surplus guy that someone else powered it up yesterday. > but I have located a > source for service manuals. If you want a copy of the manual, and don't > mind waiting awhile, I'm going to be ordering them along with quite a few > other Tek manuals. Anyone else out there a Tektronix fan/collector? Yes! > > Heath ES-600 function generator (q. 2) > > Nice...I believe you can get manuals for these too, but they have to be > obtained from a 3rd party, since Heath no longer offers them. OK. One is in nice shape, one has had the power cable cut off (suggesting to me that it is defective). > > I must have missed some SGI stuff - they had a couple of SGI keyboards > > on the keyboard shelf. > > Do keyboards and mice for the old 4D systems turn up very often? I've > been needing to track some down... Nope. First time. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 9 18:53:05 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr Message-ID: <200204092353.QAA24206@stockholm.ptloma.edu> I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing the old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. Do I need to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old PCs). PCjr with 128K RAM expansion, floppy card, parallel port module, Cartridge BASIC running IBM PC DOS 2.1. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- This signature is free of dihydrogen monoxide! Ban it now! www.dhmo.org ---- From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 19:00:48 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: <20020409211102.3AF1861107@mamacass.springsips.com> Message-ID: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Craft wrote: > Just a question... do they ever get AS/400 stuff? I need a keyboard and > some cables for a 3151? terminal and the twinax to plug 'em together. Never. This is Unix and Mac-land. I do happen to have some twinax baluns from a former tenant of a shop that my former employer took over. They previous guys had an AS/400 and terminals on peoples' desks. The best computer in the place was a 486 tower, in 2000! They were in the forklift business - this was some sort of documentation center for the company. Anyway... some of the PCs had a 5150 emulation card. Got one, in box, with cables and original invoice! They didn't run twinax everwhere. They had CAT4 wire in the walls and used Baluns on the back of everything, with silver satin cord to the wall jacks, etc. -ethan > > Tnx es 73 > Chris > KI0EW > > On Tuesday 09 April 2002 12:43, you wrote: > > I went in over lunch to see what was new/old, and discovered they are > > closing for inventory for a few weeks, but when they reopen in May, > > they will only be open one day a week. The idea is that they will post > > stuff to a web page so you can see what's worth a trip down on the > single > > day they do business. The guys who work there seem to think that > > management > > doesn't understand that stuff won't flow out as fast and they'll have > > a backlog. They figure the new hours will last as long as the floor > space > > does. > > > > In the meantime, they had PowerMac 6100s for $5, 7100s for $10-$15 (I > left > > them there; already have a 6100; just got an AV monitor from them for > $5) > > I also saw a couple of A-sized HP pen plotters, a bunch of free 14" VGA > > monitors (probably to clear them out before inventory) and the usual > > desks and IBM Selectric typewriters and $10 laser printers. > > > > I did pick up a few things... > > > > Tektronix 502A dual-beam scope *with* Tek tilt cart > > Heath ES-600 function generator (q. 2) > > DEST PC SCAN 2000 (free) > > NEC Multisync 2A (free) (would have been two, but the second one let > out > > the magic smoke). > > Apple 20MB SCSI drive (old Mac or late Apple II) > > Misc Sun SCSI, video and serial cables (free - being a regular customer > > has its benefits, like knowing they allow you to take a dip into the > > large box of assorted cables when purchasing items (no sign above the > > box); they don't require a one-to-one match-up of cables to items, so > I > > get a lot of Mac and Sun goodies that way. They just don't want to > > price the cables or keep them with the items for sale, so they all go > in > > a big box if they are not attached to things). > > > > I must have missed some SGI stuff - they had a couple of SGI keyboards > on > > the keyboard shelf. Their new hours are going to be a pain. Ah, well. > > > > -ethan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 19:12:18 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204092353.QAA24206@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing the > old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. > Do I need > to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old PCs). Yes. the computer. Welcome to one of the least popular collectibles - the Edsel of CC. The disk controller only does "DD". It operates at a 250K data transfer rate, and was intended to work with 360K drives ONLY. A 720K drive (either 3.5" or 5.25") will work with it just fine, except that it isn't supported by PC-DOS 2.10. If you switch to PC-DOS 3.20 or above, then it'll work with DRIVER.SYS. Or, look for the bizarre Weltec 1.2M drive for XTs. It was a strange 1.2M 5.25" drive that ran at 180 RPM instead of 360RPM, for the specific purpose of being able to get 1.2M drive on controllers that don't support 'em. They were not exceptionally reliable, and the "special" software for it might not work on the Jr. BTW, the disk controller will support two drives. If you expand the RAM further (with a 512k sidecar), then you might be able to run Windows 3.0 on it if you are willing to devote some time and effort to configure it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Apr 9 19:23:40 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: Native CP/M References: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> Message-ID: <3CB3860C.A0B2B348@tiac.net> I second the request! I'd love to get a BIOS for my Imsai, but its a project for another day. A decent CP/M package would be a great start, but I'd also need some tiny monitor to get code into the Imsai. I doubt this is a job for the front panel... Don Caprio wrote: > I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. I've tried various > CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. > > Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running under dos and/or > windows? > > Thanks. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Apr 9 19:25:37 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB31EF2.51A1CD62@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CB38681.8F3B57F@tiac.net> This sounds a little high for a CPU like the 2114. Of course using the 74S181 would bring this count way way down. Ben Franchuk wrote: > Playing aroud a bit with TTL using SSI parts, I get about 8-10 chips per > bit on the average for the alu. For 16 bit computer that is about 160 > chips. I would say 1/3 more for control or about 250 chips total. Does > this sound right people with 16 bit TTL computers? > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Apr 9 19:12:25 2002 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204092353.QAA24206@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409201036.009f50c0@pop-server> At 04:53 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote: >I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing the >old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. Do I need >to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old PCs). > >PCjr with 128K RAM expansion, floppy card, parallel port module, Cartridge >BASIC running IBM PC DOS 2.1. The problem is the operating system. DOS 2.1 does not support high density floppies. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Apr 9 19:27:15 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843B9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CB386E3.E8D02C84@tiac.net> I've got a blue one! Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Williams [mailto:celigne@celigne.freeserve.co.uk] > > > I've just acquired two Lear-Siegler ADM-3As and was surprised to find > > that one is brown and the other is blue. As trivial as this is, I was > > wondering whether any other colours were available and whether this > > signifies any difference in capabilities? > > I don't know, but mine is brown. If you find out about the blue one > (or the brown one) I'd like to know :) > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 9 19:17:49 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:12 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? In-Reply-To: <20020409192531.88228.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The old MAI 1200's used an ADM painted a bright blue. We have one of those, too. I seem to remember a creme coloured one, but don'tknow if we have one of those. On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Loboyko Steve wrote: > Mine is blue, but I know I've had my hands on a > "putty" colored unit. > > Do you plan on restoring them. I have some > instructions on how to do this, and I researched the > CRT, and I found a company in the UK that had new > CRT's very cheap (like, maybe 15 pounds as I recall). > I got mine in the US for about $50 USD (black and > white, of course!). > > > > --- Paul Williams > wrote: > > I've just acquired two Lear-Siegler ADM-3As and was > > surprised to find > > that one is brown and the other is blue. As trivial > > as this is, I was > > wondering whether any other colours were available > > and whether this > > signifies any difference in capabilities? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 19:23:09 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: COCO 2 available References: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c1e025$e4f41de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Under the mistaken notion that there'd be a WD1772 inside, I snagged a CoCo2 at the loca thrift shop. It was in what appeared to be the original box and didn't look beaten up, having a Radio Shack receipt I haven't yet examined in the box with it. I did look inside, and found it didn't have the desired part, so, if someone wants it, it's yours for $5 + the cost of USPS freight. There's not much inside, other than the socketed components, of which I already have plenty, so I'd just as soon find it a home as scavenge parts and toss the rest. I'm still hot for one or more of those 1772's, though. Dick From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 19:24:57 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Native CP/M References: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> <3CB3860C.A0B2B348@tiac.net> Message-ID: <003301c1e026$251692e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Why not just build a PROM card? I will happily send you a blank card with some decoding logic, buffers, and enough wire-wrap space for an EPROM or two for the cost of postage. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 6:23 PM Subject: Re: Native CP/M > I second the request! > > I'd love to get a BIOS for my Imsai, but its a project for another day. A > decent CP/M package would be a great start, but I'd also need some tiny monitor > to get code into the Imsai. > > I doubt this is a job for the front panel... > > Don Caprio wrote: > > > I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. I've tried various > > CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. > > > > Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running under dos and/or > > windows? > > > > Thanks. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 19:25:51 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020409201036.009f50c0@pop-server> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 04:53 PM 4/9/02 -0700, you wrote: > >I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing the > >old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. Do I need > >to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old PCs). > > > >PCjr with 128K RAM expansion, floppy card, parallel port module, Cartridge > >BASIC running IBM PC DOS 2.1. > > The problem is the operating system. DOS 2.1 does not support high density > floppies. NOR DOES THE DISK CONTROLLER. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 19:28:08 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The old MAI 1200's used an ADM painted a bright blue. We have one of > those, too. I seem to remember a creme coloured one, but don'tknow if we > have one of those. So, . . . the prototype for the imac didn't have tangerine, etc. Hmmm. Is the iMac available in ADM3a blue? and cream? From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue Apr 9 20:34:21 2002 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204092353.QAA24206@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On 09-Apr-2002 Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing > the old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. > Do I need to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old > PCs). > > PCjr with 128K RAM expansion, floppy card, parallel port module, > Cartridge BASIC running IBM PC DOS 2.1. I'd be suprised if the BIOS in a PCjr ROM would know anything about HD floppy drives. -Philip From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 9 19:41:38 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > I just bought a new CD-RW drive -- a Sony CRX145s -- and am curious > > about whether it may read the 512-byte blocks necessary for using it > > as a backup boot device on my VAXen, Sparc, SGI, etc. > > > > Does anyone know whether this, or just for information, some other > > CD-RW unit, will do such a thing? > > Haven't tried my CD-RW on a non-Intel box as boot device, but I know > that the 512-byte boot block is not the only issue. For instance, I > have a Sony 8x reader with an IBM "microcode upgrade" that will boot my > SparcStation, every RS6k I own, and my Alphas, ***unless*** it's a > VMS/OpenVMS CD. The BabyVAXen also won't boot off it. The Indy won't. > OTOH, My Plextor 32x, May It Rest In Peace (I dropped it!), would boot > all the above except VMS CDs. > I know that early RS/6000s did some sense checking that narrowed the > field considerably. I _guess_ that VMS does the same. About the rest, > I'm clueless. I don't need to boot off it, but I would like to use my Yamaha CRW2200S 16-10-40X CD-R/W in my RS/6000 397, but I can't get the SCSI to recognize the drive. I have no idea why. The drive is at ID5. The main CD-ROM in the machine is at ID6 and is a 20X Wide Plextor, which works just fine. I have termination disabled on all devices, and I have a wide terminator on the end of the cable. Peace... Sridhar From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 9 19:44:58 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) References: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:30 AM Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) > > --- Chris Craft wrote: > > Just a question... do they ever get AS/400 stuff? I need a keyboard and > > some cables for a 3151? terminal and the twinax to plug 'em together. > > Never. This is Unix and Mac-land. > > I do happen to have some twinax baluns from a former tenant of a > shop that my former employer took over. They previous guys had an AS/400 > and terminals on peoples' desks. The best computer in the place was a > 486 tower, in 2000! They were in the forklift business - this was some > sort of documentation center for the company. I despair of ever getting my AS400 working. I have the machine, I have the necessary adapter in the machine, I have terminals, I have twinax. I don't have the 25 pin d to 8x twinax connector gizmo (I can supply an IBM part no). I've had a few offered to me, but they all want very serious money for it. Considering I paid $25AU for the lot I'm not that interested in shelling out a couple of hundred for the terminal interface box and cable. Cheers Geoff in Oz From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 9 19:45:46 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... In-Reply-To: <20020409234654.27692.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Tothwolf wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > Tektronix 502A dual-beam scope *with* Tek tilt cart > > > > I bought a 502 and a 502A for a total of $5 last year at auction. I've > > not yet powered them up, as they need to be restored, > > I was told by the surplus guy that someone else powered it up > yesterday. Uh oh. I'd suggest you check it out before powering it up again, or at least bring it up slowly to full power with a variac while monitoring its current draw. The power transformers for these things are somewhat hard to find, and a bad cap could take it out. > > > Heath ES-600 function generator (q. 2) > > > > Nice...I believe you can get manuals for these too, but they have to be > > obtained from a 3rd party, since Heath no longer offers them. > > OK. One is in nice shape, one has had the power cable cut off > (suggesting to me that it is defective). Well, cut cables don't always mean bad gear when it comes from a university auction. Someone cut the cord off of a nice bit of tube gear I got from one university...he wanted the cord to test a motor... -Toth From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Apr 9 19:56:46 2002 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) Message-ID: <20020410005646.GU26665@mrbill.net> Please contact Darren directly if interested in this system; he would like it to go to a good home. Bill ----- Forwarded message from Darren Harrison ----- From: "Darren Harrison" To: "Bill Bradford" Subject: Re: vax micro computer Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:54:31 +1000 Thanks Bill, It is a Digital MicroVAX 3100-80 with a storage expansion. Both are SCSI compatible and the storage expansion also has a 9 track port. VAX 3100-80 Model No. -470ZM-B9-A01 SN - KA236W6545 Storage expansion Model No. - SZ12J-JA SN - AB23403IHO I did notice you were in Austin, TX. The VAX and I are in Melbourne, Australia. Hope this doesn't cause any problems. Thanks again, Darren Harrison Urban Science, harrojnr@ozemail.com.au ----- Original Message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 19:59:53 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > I'd be suprised if the BIOS in a PCjr ROM would know anything about HD > floppy drives. If the BIOS doesn't know about them, that can be "relatively" easily dealt with with a device driver. BUT THE DISK CONTROLLER WON'T HANDLE HD. To do HD (other than the ridiculous Weltec drive) requires a 500K data transfer rate. The Jr disk controller won't. From red at bears.org Tue Apr 9 19:59:54 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Geoff Roberts wrote: > I don't have the 25 pin d to 8x twinax connector gizmo (I can supply an IBM > part no). I've had a few offered to me, but they all want very serious > money for it. Considering I paid $25AU for the lot I'm not that interested > in shelling out a couple of hundred for the terminal interface box and > cable. A couple of hundred for the workstation adapter cable is nothing compared to the cost of $26,000 IBM quoted me, to license OS/400 for mine. Word of warning for the rest of you, the conventional wisdom that states RISC AS/400 = V4 = transferrable OS isn't entirely true. _Some_ RISC AS/400s did run a late release of V3. Licenses for OS/400 V3 are not transferrable, whether for RISC or CISC. ok r. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 9 20:02:23 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > I don't need to boot off it, but I would like to use my Yamaha CRW2200S > 16-10-40X CD-R/W in my RS/6000 397, but I can't get the SCSI to recognize > the drive. I have no idea why. The drive is at ID5. The main CD-ROM in > the machine is at ID6 and is a 20X Wide Plextor, which works just fine. I > have termination disabled on all devices, and I have a wide terminator on > the end of the cable. I'm willing to be wrong, but I doubt that a 3xx-series (or 5xx or 9xx) will see any CD device that's not either Plextor or blessed by IBM, as evidenced by IBM badge. You might look at the comp.unix.aix archives for more details. Doc From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 9 20:05:03 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I don't need to boot off it, but I would like to use my Yamaha CRW2200S > > 16-10-40X CD-R/W in my RS/6000 397, but I can't get the SCSI to recognize > > the drive. I have no idea why. The drive is at ID5. The main CD-ROM in > > the machine is at ID6 and is a 20X Wide Plextor, which works just fine. I > > have termination disabled on all devices, and I have a wide terminator on > > the end of the cable. > > I'm willing to be wrong, but I doubt that a 3xx-series (or 5xx or 9xx) > will see any CD device that's not either Plextor or blessed by IBM, as > evidenced by IBM badge. > You might look at the comp.unix.aix archives for more details. *sigh* So I have to save my money and get a PleXWriter. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 19:21:30 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <004801c1e01e$19117620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 9, 2 05:27:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/466e69ef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 19:32:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB36E00.702CB756@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 9, 2 04:41:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3297 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/6364fb54/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 9 20:33:18 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > I'm willing to be wrong, but I doubt that a 3xx-series (or 5xx or 9xx) > > will see any CD device that's not either Plextor or blessed by IBM, as > > evidenced by IBM badge. > > You might look at the comp.unix.aix archives for more details. > > *sigh* So I have to save my money and get a PleXWriter. Everybody should own a PlexWriter anyhow. ;) Seriously, though, considering the price of a SCSI Plexwriter, it'll be worth a post to comp.unix.aix to make sure that that's what it takes, and that a Plextor will work, for that matter. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 20:45:57 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <000d01c1e031$75f38f00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The old SIgnetics and MMI databooks had quite simple circuits for programming them. It merely involved using an elevated VCC to the device being programmed and a current sink to hit the outputs to be programmed "open" by blowing the fuse (a 7445 was excellent for that since it had to be done bitwise), and some simple software to drive it. It was NOT rocket science. If you liked a belt-and-suspenders approach, then you programmed 'em with a current sink to a negative supply. It was all in the various data books and app-notes. What was tricky was addressing the fuses in PALs, since you only got one try at getting it right. PROMs simply required you raise Vcc to, say, 6.5 volts and apply the addresses, then apply the negated output bit to bit 3 of the address of the 7445 and the bit address to the lower 3 bits. If it was a zero, then the bit was left alone, while if it was a one, (remember it was negated) it propagated a zero to the appropriate bit of the device being programmed, which drew current through the fuse, which opened it, leaving a '1' permanently programmed in the array. The way the supervoltage to the Vcc of the device being programmed was created was by putting a resistor of about 300 ohms between the output of a 7805 and its reference (ground) pin. Two silicon diodes in series would generate an offset between the output and ground, and a toggle switch would either short across them or not, enabling the supervoltage or not. It could also be "shorted" with a relay or transistor under software control, but a physical switch was more popular back then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > The main reason I have never played with them is I could never find a > > Fuse Prom Burner schematic that looked reasonable. I still would like to > > That's probably because fusible PROMs are notoriously difficult to 'blow' > correctly. They're also getting hard to find now, and as they're strictly > one-time-programmble, I really wouldn't want to use them in a new design. > > Some of the modern electricallly eraseable technologies are getting > pretty fast -- certainly fast enough for experimental processors. And > they're a lot easier to program. OK, the devices are massive by > comparison with the old bipolar PROMs. but they're also not expensive (at > least not compared to 2 or 3 of the old bipolar fusible-link PROMs, and > you need to reckon on buying at least 2 for every one you will use as you > will make programming mistakes), so it's worth 'wasting' most of the > capacity of the chip. > > > do a TTL computer with fused based proms ( or EEPROM's as modern > > substitute )for control logic. I am just finishing up a nice FPGA design > > but thinking this is going to be a pain to get a serial prom and have it > > burned too. 50,000 sure ! quantity 1, HA-HA you must be kidding. > > (EPC1441LC20 altera 440,800 bits -- any place in Canada). While TTL is > > low density you don't need to pay $$$ for a license for modern > > programiable logic, have the software needed 5+ years down the road! ( > > That is assuming TTL is still around 10 years from now ) > > For experimental and educational projects I much prefer TTL (including, > of course the CMOS versions of the TTL chips, like 74HCxxx parts). It's > easier to prototype with, easier to test (you can clip the 'scope or > logic analyser wherever you like), and easier to see what's really going > on. It's quicker to make small changes to the circuit as well (on an FPGA > design I did about 5 years ago, a full compile of the main chip took > overnigh (OK, PCs have got faster since then, but FPGAs have also got > larger!)). That meant every small change took a day to test. A soldering > iron and/or wire-wrap tool is a lot faster for changing a few connections > :-) You also aren't tied to a proprietry program running on some > computer/OS that I don't have... > > Please don't attempt to convince me that FPGAs make more sense for > production. I don't need convincing of that... > > > > > > > > > The PDP11/05 was 2 full hex-height boards just for the CPU, so around 200 > > > > chips. It used mostly TTL, but also some PROMs containing the microcode. > > > > And the TTL included chips rather more complicated than just gates -- > > > > things like 16*4 RAMs, 4 bit latches, multiplexers, etc. > > > > This was ball park figures. A 4 bit shift register ,4 bit up counter > > ,dual 4-1 muliplexer would be the typical ALU parts. I was looking at > > I wouldn't call those SSI parts. > > > 74HCXX chips as 74LSXX is harder to find and lots more power. How ever a > > 74LS382 style alu would be used rather than a 74LS181 if LS parts were > > Why? The '181 has many more operations, some of them useful.... > > > used. A 8 bit x 1 register file is a 8 bit addressable latch and a 8/1 > > multiplexer. The alu design is for a undefined 24 bit processor with a > > Sure... I guess 74x170s are really hard to find now :-(.. All these > wonderful chips I grew up using are discontinued :-( > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 20:55:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001301c1e032$cf254f40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think you may be mistaken there, Tony. If you wire up a set of gates to generate the outputs otherwise generated by a PROM, it's hardware, not firmware, since it's hard-wired and not programmable. Likewise, if you configure a CPLD to contain what (a logic function) would otherwise have been generated with discrete LSI/MSI/SSI logic, it's still firmware. From what I have gathered over the years. If it can't be removed from the device without making the function of the item go away, then it's hardware or firmware. If it's possible to remove it and leave the device/system of which it's a component intact, having simply removed that one function it's probably firmware. If it is copied from one medium to another before it becomes part of the system, it's probably software, particularly if it resides in a locus capable of being routinely modified, it's probably software. (notice the need for "wiggle-room")/ I don't know where this leaves things like CDROMs, FLASH memory, FPGA's (which are configurable in their internal RAM from an external ROM or whatever) since they seem to blur those boundaries. However, you'll play hell trying to modify the contents of Wozniak's state-machine PROMs, so that's probably firmware or hardware, though it relies heavily on what's probably software to help it work properly, while you'll have trouble convincing anyone that the stuff on a floppy diskette is anything other than software, even though it might be the microcode that makes your '370 run. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 6:21 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > Tony, you're wandering into the semantic quagmire of distinction between > > hardware and firmware and software. > > Yes, I know... The point is that many of these terms ('hardware', > 'software', 'firmware', 'microcode', 'state machine', etc) don't have > absolutely rigorous definitions. OK, we all know what, say 'firmware' is, > but then if I wire up a pile of gates to replace a ROM containing a > program (which is what we'd call 'firmware'), is the result 'firmware', > 'hardware', both, or neither :-) > > > > > The difference between microcode and other firmware, used, for example, to > > define a state machine, is that the "microcode" is executed by a processor of > > some sort that is an entity unto itself. Microcode is used in two-layered > > designs, wherein the microengine executes the microcode which, in effect, > > This sounds like a good definition until you realise that concepts like > 'procrssor' and 'instruction set' are not precisely defined either. I > could argue that a terminal, taking in characters over a serial line, and > changing its internal state (positioning cursor, clearing to the end of > line, etc) was in fact a processor with the characters as the instrucion > set. At which point the terminal firmware becomes microcode. > > The problem is not helped by the fact that some manufacturers use these > terms (IMHO) incorrectly.... > > We've had this discussion before. It gets nowhere, and seems pointless > provided if there's no real confusion. > > > fully defines the system of which it is a component. In some cases, changing > > the microcode will completely redefine the instruction set, register set, > > cache configuration, etc. In some cases, it can even redefine the word width. > > > > That's certainly seldom the case with state machines. > > Perhaps you can give me a defintion of state machine which excludes a > (microcoded) processor. I will accept that not all state machines are > microcoded processors, but I'll have difficulty accepting any form of > processor that's not a stete machine. > > -tony > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 9 21:06:36 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: AS/400 and DATA General Stuff Message-ID: <01fd01c1e034$591a46a0$06000240@default> At a auction today I was able to get a IBM AS/400 Advanced 36 for $37.50 but no terminal or keyboard with it. The black case is in pretty good shape and it powers on and gives a number code in the little reader on the front of the case. Got a Data General terminal model 5220 but no keyboard was it for 6.99 at a thrift. At the auction a also got Tandy VMT monitor and IBM mono monitor both for free. Got a MAC (128) kb and mouse both in the designer boxes with their foam containers. This is better good since someone jut paid over $500 for these same type of boxes with nothing in them on eBay. I got both for $4.98 at the thrift. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 9 21:44:04 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB33F1D.9F886766@compsys.to> <3CB34859.E8AC4221@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CB3A6F4.107F1415@compsys.to> >Paul Williams wrote: > >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > OK! But I have not turned mine on for at least two > > years. But I will if you send the five characters. By the > > way, I forget how to use local mode as well. > Thank you. The five characters are: > "A" "/" "B" "C" > The output on later terminals in VT52 mode is "AC", but from reading the > maintenance manual I suspect that a VT52 will output "ABC". Jerome Fine replies: A long story with a short response - you are correct for a real DEC VT100. I have not yet looked at a DEC VT220. On the other hand, my Plessy VT100 terminal works the same as the real DEC VT52. As for the DEC VT52, with both upper case and lower case, the output in local mode is ALWAYS "ABC" or "abc" when I type those five characters in by hand in local mode. I was never able to test in normal mode since I could not seem to get a cable which worked. I had set up a file with those five characters which I would have done a "TYPE" in RT-11. Sorry. Any other sequences? > To set the terminal up for local operation, tip the unit up on its rear. > Notice the two rotary switches. Use a screwdriver or coin to turn S1 > (the one on the right) to its most counterclockwise position, Position > 1. Turn the other switch, S2, its most clockwise position, and then > counterclockwise one position. This is Position G. > Cheers, > Paul It took a while, but I finally managed to get into local mode. But now I think I can't get back into normal mode even though the switches are in the original position - oh well. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From co.614sqn at aafc.adfc.gov.au Tue Apr 9 21:53:02 2002 From: co.614sqn at aafc.adfc.gov.au (FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) References: Message-ID: <059201c1e03a$d585df50$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: Re: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) > On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > I don't have the 25 pin d to 8x twinax connector gizmo (I can supply an IBM > > part no). I've had a few offered to me, but they all want very serious > > money for it. Considering I paid $25AU for the lot I'm not that interested > > in shelling out a couple of hundred for the terminal interface box and > > cable. > > A couple of hundred for the workstation adapter cable is nothing compared > to the cost of $26,000 IBM quoted me, to license OS/400 for mine. Yeah, this box (CISC) has OS/400 installed AFAIK. Can't tell for sure since I don't have the black box to hook up the twinax terms. But the diag readout suggests it's booting something. > Word of warning for the rest of you, the conventional wisdom that states > RISC AS/400 = V4 = transferrable OS isn't entirely true. _Some_ RISC > AS/400s did run a late release of V3. Licenses for OS/400 V3 are not > transferrable, whether for RISC or CISC. Not planning to use it to do anything, so doesn't really matter anyway. I just want a complete system. Cheers Geoff in Oz From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 9 21:59:54 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks References: Message-ID: <3CB3AAAA.A7ADD57D@compsys.to> >Doc wrote: > Haven't tried my CD-RW on a non-Intel box as boot device, but I know > that the 512-byte boot block is not the only issue. For instance, I > have a Sony 8x reader with an IBM "microcode upgrade" that will boot my > SparcStation, every RS6k I own, and my Alphas, ***unless*** it's a > VMS/OpenVMS CD. The BabyVAXen also won't boot off it. The Indy won't. > OTOH, My Plextor 32x, May It Rest In Peace (I dropped it!), would boot > all the above except VMS CDs. > I know that early RS/6000s did some sense checking that narrowed the > field considerably. I _guess_ that VMS does the same. About the rest, > I'm clueless. > Back to reading 512-byte blocks, both my old TEAC 55R and my new > Yamaha SCSI CDRW have a jumper to allow 512-byte reads, as do most of > the better SCSI readers. Jerome Fine replies: I have a VERY old SCSI CDROM drive which seems to be able to recognize 512 byte blocks, although I have not made a final test. It does not recognize a CD-RW media, but I have tested it with a CD-R that I used when I made a copy of my backup files for the complete system. I am using Windows 98 (which I dislike), but the Ersatz-11 emulator runs very well under Windows 98, so I don't have a choice if I want to run my PDP-11 programs under this emulator. By the end of the month, I will make a copy of a bootable set of files on a CD-R and test the SCSI CDROM drive to see if it will boot RT-11. I do have one question for a problem I don't have a solution for. Tim Shoppa made an RT-11 Freeware CD with files under the ISO file structure at the beginning of the CD and other files under the RT-11 files structure at the end of the CD. Somehow (probably on a VAX or an Alpha under VMS), he was able to master a CD with both file structures. The essence is that there are 114,688 sectors (of 2048 bytes each or 7 RT-11 partitions of 33,554,432 bytes each) starting at sector 212,992 (which is 13 * 16,384 sectors from the start) on the CD. Does anyone know of a program which will work under Windows 98 that can copy a file from the hard disk to the CD starting at a specified sector on the CD rather than sector zero on the CD? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 9 22:38:05 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB3B39D.533712C7@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > For experimental and educational projects I much prefer TTL (including, > of course the CMOS versions of the TTL chips, like 74HCxxx parts). It's > easier to prototype with, easier to test (you can clip the 'scope or > logic analyser wherever you like), and easier to see what's really going > on. It's quicker to make small changes to the circuit as well (on an FPGA > design I did about 5 years ago, a full compile of the main chip took > overnigh (OK, PCs have got faster since then, but FPGAs have also got > larger!)). That meant every small change took a day to test. A soldering > iron and/or wire-wrap tool is a lot faster for changing a few connections > :-) You also aren't tied to a proprietry program running on some > computer/OS that I don't have... Until I got over 95% of logic filled in my Altera FPGA, most compiles were under 15 minutes.( BTW -- Since I have 100% of the FPGA used it is time to stop upgrading the design :)). I live in the middle of (looks around) snow thus getting stuff mail order is the only way to get parts often from the USA but some even from Australia. > Please don't attempt to convince me that FPGAs make more sense for > production. I don't need convincing of that... TTL is still better for production. (grin). > I wouldn't call those SSI parts. Ok SSI and MSI parts. Compared to millions of transistors in a cpu, all TTL parts are small. BTW altera has a fairly nice macro library for their FPGA's. > Why? The '181 has many more operations, some of them useful.... I want A+~B,~A+B,A+B,A^B,A|B,A*B alu functions. The 181 can't give me that. > Sure... I guess 74x170s are really hard to find now :-(.. All these > wonderful chips I grew up using are discontinued :-( More like a 74xx00. The Tiny chips are sure popular today, who would of thought single gate chips would sell. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ccraft at netgenius.org Tue Apr 9 22:46:49 2002 From: ccraft at netgenius.org (Chris Craft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <02040921464900.03461@ccraft.home> Hm... that particular bit I //do// have. Perhaps I should (carefully) see what's inside. -Chris. On Tuesday 09 April 2002 18:44, you wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:30 AM > Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) > > > --- Chris Craft wrote: > > > Just a question... do they ever get AS/400 stuff? I need a keyboard and > > > some cables for a 3151? terminal and the twinax to plug 'em together. > > > > Never. This is Unix and Mac-land. > > > > I do happen to have some twinax baluns from a former tenant of a > > shop that my former employer took over. They previous guys had an AS/400 > > and terminals on peoples' desks. The best computer in the place was a > > 486 tower, in 2000! They were in the forklift business - this was some > > sort of documentation center for the company. > > I despair of ever getting my AS400 working. I have the machine, I have the > necessary adapter in the machine, I have terminals, I have twinax. > I don't have the 25 pin d to 8x twinax connector gizmo (I can supply an IBM > part no). I've had a few offered to me, but they all want very serious > money for it. Considering I paid $25AU for the lot I'm not that interested > in shelling out a couple of hundred for the terminal interface box and > cable. > > Cheers > > Geoff in Oz From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 9 23:17:54 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Apr 9, 2 05:12:18 pm" Message-ID: <200204100417.VAA24132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing the > > old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. > > Do I need to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old PCs). > Yes. the computer. > Welcome to one of the least popular collectibles - the Edsel of CC. Actually, I'm rather fond of it. It has much more personality than a plain boring old XT clone. Now that I have Cartridge BASIC (tip of the hat to Sellam :-) I'm able to do more practical things with it once I understand what's actually going on ;-) > The disk controller only does "DD". It operates at a 250K data transfer > rate, and was intended to work with 360K drives ONLY. > A 720K drive (either 3.5" or 5.25") will work with it just fine, except > that it isn't supported by PC-DOS 2.10. If you switch to PC-DOS 3.20 or > above, then it'll work with DRIVER.SYS. What is the highest DOS I can run on a PCjr? And how can I tell the difference between a 720K drive and a 1.2MB 5.25" drive? (See, I really *am* ignorant about old PC systems. ;-) Is a 3.5" disk really practical in the jr? > If you expand the RAM further (with a 512k sidecar), then you might be > able to run Windows 3.0 on it if you are willing to devote some time and > effort to configure it. I have the RAM disk software running, which takes up most of the 128K internal RAM expansion, and ended up writing an autoexec.bat that copies most of the useful DOS files into the RAM disk, makes the COMMAND.COM in RAM the permanent shell, and makes the default path the RAM disk. This is much, much faster. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- if (you.canRead(this)) you.canGet(new job(!problem)); -- Seen at JavaOne --- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 9 23:44:00 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB3B39D.533712C7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001f01c1e04a$559f75c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:38 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Tony Duell wrote: > > > For experimental and educational projects I much prefer TTL (including, > > of course the CMOS versions of the TTL chips, like 74HCxxx parts). It's > > easier to prototype with, easier to test (you can clip the 'scope or > > logic analyser wherever you like), and easier to see what's really going > > on. It's quicker to make small changes to the circuit as well (on an FPGA > > design I did about 5 years ago, a full compile of the main chip took > > overnigh (OK, PCs have got faster since then, but FPGAs have also got > > larger!)). That meant every small change took a day to test. A soldering > > iron and/or wire-wrap tool is a lot faster for changing a few connections > > :-) You also aren't tied to a proprietry program running on some > > computer/OS that I don't have... > > Until I got over 95% of logic filled in my Altera FPGA, most compiles > were under 15 minutes.( BTW -- Since I have 100% of the FPGA used it is > time to stop upgrading the design :)). I live in the middle of (looks > around) snow thus getting stuff mail order is the only way to get parts > often from the USA but some even from Australia. > I've seen/heard of very few FPGA's getting much past 30% utilization, based on the gate counts proffered by the marketing droids. Remember that they count a 3-input gate as 3 2-input gates and a flipflop as 14 rather than 6 gates. Therefore, if you use a 32-bit LUT, the marketing people take credit for 32 * 14 gates, plus a huge multiplexing tree counted as though it were built from a sea of 2 input gates. Just the same, regardless of how you count 'em, the utilization under most circumstances remains well under half the available resources. Some of the configurations that were easily produced using the old Altera APLUS+ software in a 24 macrocell Classic (EP910) can't be implemented in a Classic EP1810 (twice as large, twice as many macrocells) with the current-generation software because some of the constructs (bidirectional macrocells, latches, etc.) of which the old software was capable don't exist in the new software. It seem strange ... If you get well above that level of utilization, you must be VERY good! > > > Please don't attempt to convince me that FPGAs make more sense for > > production. I don't need convincing of that... > I'm not sure they're particularly appropriate for production unless the circuits in which they're used are very large indeed, since it's tempting to put ALL the logic in one of them, thereby making it child's play for counterfeiters or your competitors to replicate your work. > > TTL is still better for production. (grin). > > > I wouldn't call those SSI parts. > > Ok SSI and MSI parts. Compared to millions of transistors in a cpu, all > TTL parts are small. BTW altera has a fairly nice macro library for > their FPGA's. > > > Why? The '181 has many more operations, some of them useful.... > I want A+~B,~A+B,A+B,A^B,A|B,A*B alu functions. The 181 can't give me > that. > > > Sure... I guess 74x170s are really hard to find now :-(.. All these > > wonderful chips I grew up using are discontinued :-( > Well, I just received some '670's. They're tri-state where the '170's are OC. Aside from that ... This particular application is an enhanced parallel port monitor, and the two-port register set is perfect for the application. The pair receives data in bytes and coughs it up in nybbles for display. In fact, I have a problem with the range of SRAMs that are avaisable today, as they're too deep, making them slow, and too narrow, meaning one has to use too many. I need 8 words of 256Kbits more often than I need 256K words of 8 bits. Since FPGA's are just SRAMs with feedback, it's obvious that shallow SRAMs of sufficient speed (<250 ps Taac) can be fabricated, but they just don't find their way into useable packages. > > More like a 74xx00. The Tiny chips are sure popular today, who would of > thought single gate chips would sell. It has to do with layout. If you have 4 NAND gates in a package, costing what 4 gates would, you'd be tempted to share the gates among different circuits. If those circuits are more than 10mm apart, the routing uses up too much real estate, so a single gate is reasonable. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 9 23:50:56 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A Message-ID: <20020410045225.IZQP1180.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Sellam Ismail > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > Haus des Lehrers. They did, after all, have Pong. Later, I did find the > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/ website, and laughed at myself when I found > > what the other Simon was. > > > > I've already received two emails from people that want this classic > > computing treasure, even in pieces. > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > wires and relays. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Sellam, why do you insist on labeling people with terms such as "silly" and "lazy?" Have you considering taking the easy way and suggesting that they might be mistaken? Also, do you still want this Amstrad 3" drive or shall I repost it to the list? It's been several months . . . Glen 0/0 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 23:52:12 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020410045212.65738.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > Unidentified Quad-Height Board: > System Industries > 9901-6082-a > Date Code 621 I think I have one or two of these. Never powered them on. Got them in a pile of spare SI9900 parts over 5 years ago. > It has 2 40-pin connectors The connector to the 9900 is a pair of BC08 cables (40-pin ribbon cables) I have never used a 9900 with a MicroVAX, but we used to use one every day on our 11/750 with a Massbus adapter. There was an SI- specific cable set that went from the 11/750 backplane to a pair of 40-pin connectors that did not resemble the 3-tier Massbus connector. The two 11/70s I got a couple of years ago both came with 9900 adapters. I would have to poke around with a flashlight to report how they attach. The arrangement was this... Some sort of host board -> SI9900 -> one or more SMD drives. You could plug multiple hosts into one SI9900, but we never did. You could plug multiple disk boards into it, too, and we did do that, IIRC. The SI9900 itself is a 5"-tall rackable box with a PSU and two bays for cards. They stacked on the left and on the right - one for host cards (with a pair of 40-pin cables going to each host) and one for drive cards. It's been so long since I've been in one that I forget if the drive cards supported multiple drives per card. Ours had a 160MB Fujitsu drive and an Eagle; I don't recall how many drive cards were in the 9900. >From the standpoint of the 11/750, it saw two RM03s and a strange RM05. We didn't have to patch the OS to access the 160MB Fuji as two 67MB devices, but we did have to wait on SI to upgrade VMS until they released a patch for the DRDRIVER (IIRC) to add/modify an entry for our oversized RM05 (~400MB). Obviously, the SI9900 works with the PDP-11/70, but I have no experience with it. I do not know what device the Qbus board resembles. If you don't have the 9900 itself, that card isn't going to do you much good. I don't know why we went with the SI9900, but it would have been c. 1983 or 1984. It was probably the fastest, cheapest way to throw some disk on our *new* 11/750 (BT0000354) About the same time, an RA81 was $26,000 plus the cost of the UDA-50. A Unibus SMD interface might have been cheaper, but not as fast. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 9 16:05:58 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204100417.VAA24132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Is a 3.5" disk really practical in the jr? I have a PCjr with an add-on 3.5" disk drive chassis. You take the cover off the PCjr case, then stack this unit on top, then place the lid on top. I can't remember if it replaces the existing disk controller with something else. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 00:11:47 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: <3CAE7EE2.2050401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20020410051147.78436.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gunther Schadow wrote: >...(I just love RA disks and only need a 7x and a 60 to have the > complete series 60, 81, 82, 90, 92, 7x.) Didn't the R-80 (RB80) also come in an SDI version? I know there's an "RM80" Massbus version. I don't recall for certain if there was an RA80 or not. I am missing several in the above lineup - the 82, 90 and 92. I also happen to have a 3rd-party RA92 emulator with a pair of EDSI drives in a small rack-mount box. Sits right on my KDB-50. 2.6GB of storage at less than 250W draw. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 00:13:50 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <003301c1e026$251692e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020410051350.5298.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> Interesting, but nonetheless incredibly timewasting and pointless idea: get an old XT clone with the BIOS and the 4 blank sockets for BASIC. Write a BIOS extension chipset in 4 2716's or less. This would be a great deal of work, though. You can do this same sort of thing even today if you have a junky (or not)network card with the net boot EPROM socket (almost always a 2716/32/64 or similar). The code doesn't have to have anything to do with a network. I actually did something like this many years ago when I wrote a password protection EPROM for my XT, unfortunately, I don't have the code anymore, but as I recall the first two bytes have to be 0x55 0xAA or something similar, and the chip must checksum to 0. I wrote the code in assembler, reserved a byte for the checksum, and wrote a BASIC program (no laughing, please) to calc the checksum and drop it into the image. --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > Why not just build a PROM card? I will happily send > you a blank card with > some decoding logic, buffers, and enough wire-wrap > space for an EPROM or two > for the cost of postage. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Shannon" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: Native CP/M > > > > I second the request! > > > > I'd love to get a BIOS for my Imsai, but its a > project for another day. A > > decent CP/M package would be a great start, but > I'd also need some tiny > monitor > > to get code into the Imsai. > > > > I doubt this is a job for the front panel... > > > > Don Caprio wrote: > > > > > I'm trying to build a development platform for > my Imsai. I've tried > various > > > CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. > > > > > > Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without > running under dos and/or > > > windows? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Apr 10 00:17:14 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) References: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <02040921464900.03461@ccraft.home> Message-ID: <060601c1e04e$feef96b0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Craft" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) > Hm... that particular bit I //do// have. Perhaps I should (carefully) see > what's inside. Good idea. Then let me know :^) The IBM Part No. is 21F5093 if you want to make sure first. Geoff in Oz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 00:23:36 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB3B39D.533712C7@jetnet.ab.ca> <001f01c1e04a$559f75c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB3CC58.85C182C5@jetnet.ab.ca> > I've seen/heard of very few FPGA's getting much past 30% utilization, based on > the gate counts proffered by the marketing droids. Remember that they count a > 3-input gate as 3 2-input gates and a flipflop as 14 rather than 6 gates. > Therefore, if you use a 32-bit LUT, the marketing people take credit for 32 * > 14 gates, plus a huge multiplexing tree counted as though it were built from a > sea of 2 input gates. Just the same, regardless of how you count 'em, the > utilization under most circumstances remains well under half the available > resources. Well regardless of how you count them, the chip has no free macro cells left, and routing is very full with only a few free I/O pins. > Some of the configurations that were easily produced using the old Altera > APLUS+ software in a 24 macrocell Classic (EP910) can't be implemented in a > Classic EP1810 (twice as large, twice as many macrocells) with the > current-generation software because some of the constructs (bidirectional > macrocells, latches, etc.) of which the old software was capable don't exist > in the new software. It seem strange ... Lets not forget everything in BGA pin format too. That is the other reason why it so full, I can't move to a larger FPGA and still stay in a 84 pin PLCC package. > If you get well above that level of utilization, you must be VERY good! Nope just luck and trial and error ... does feature X fit ... nope , how about Y ... then feature Z.. > This particular application is an enhanced parallel port monitor, and the > two-port register set is perfect for the application. The pair receives data > in bytes and coughs it up in nybbles for display. In fact, I have a problem > with the range of SRAMs that are avaisable today, as they're too deep, making > them slow, and too narrow, meaning one has to use too many. I need 8 words of > 256Kbits more often than I need 256K words of 8 bits. Since FPGA's are just > SRAMs with feedback, it's obvious that shallow SRAMs of sufficient speed (<250 > ps Taac) can be fabricated, but they just don't find their way into useable > packages. $%#! packages all 8 bits wide, how the **** do you find 4 bit wide memory for all the 12 bit cpu's out there. > It has to do with layout. If you have 4 NAND gates in a package, costing what > 4 gates would, you'd be tempted to share the gates among different circuits. > If those circuits are more than 10mm apart, the routing uses up too much real > estate, so a single gate is reasonable. Other than inverting a chip select, I really can't see why such glue is needed. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 10 01:27:25 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: New MV-II boots! And, of course, Questions.... Message-ID: I'm quite tickled. Also inordinately proud of myself (for figuring out the BA23's slightly different connections & stuff and not letting loose any Magic Smoke). First thing: Thanks, Terry! I really like it. Terry's rackmount MicroVAX II has been condensed into a single BA23. For the nonce, I'm running a single RD54 and a TK50 on their respective controllers, and a DELQA ethernet board. The KA655-A with 32M is a LOT faster than the KA630 with 13M. The TK50 is slow as ever.... I was hoping the BA23 would be quieter than the BA123. It's not. Questions: Does the KA655 CPU make this a MV-3800, a MV-III, or a MV-II with a KA655? Terry, looks like you were right: The memory board, which is a DataRAM 63016 C0. Listed online as a 16M board some places and 32M others. The system sees it as 2 16M boards. Is this kosher? The 3-position CPU-RAM ribbon cable is plugged at one end and at the middle connector. Does it matter? I'd _really_ like to run the RX50 instead of the TK50. Unfortunately, I don't have a cable. Can a PC floppy cable be modified to work? It looks like, from reading past posts, connecting on the "B" connector - i.e. no twist - ought to do the trick. Not quite brave enough to just plug it in and see. Last (not really applicable in the BA23), I see references to terminating the last RD5x on an RQDX3. Is that termination effected at the distribution board (M9058 in the BA123) or on the drive? Drive 1 and Drive 2 don't look any different. Which may be why they're, um, terminally off-line. Doc P.S. - I've always wanted to say "For the nonce".... From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 10 01:44:10 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board In-Reply-To: <20020410045212.65738.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The arrangement was this... > > Some sort of host board -> SI9900 -> one or more SMD drives. > > You could plug multiple hosts into one SI9900, but we never did. You > could plug multiple disk boards into it, too, and we did do that, IIRC. Cool. I think I have 2 host boards, the drive drawer, and no SI9900. Oh, well. In all honesty, my network & storage setup is such that remote filesystems are very satisfactory for most of my slower machines. > Obviously, the SI9900 works with the PDP-11/70, but I have no experience > with it. I do not know what device the Qbus board resembles. If you > don't have the 9900 itself, that card isn't going to do you much good. Heh. Not to mention that I don't see SMD drives all that often either. Maybe I'll stick the SI boards on eBay as "Totally Cool, Ultr@R@re Mystery QBus Adapters"..... Thanks to all for the information. Doc From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 9 17:57:28 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <20020410045225.IZQP1180.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they > would > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > > wires and relays. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > Sellam, why do you insist on labeling people with terms such as "silly" and > "lazy?" Because I find it silly and lazy that people can't take two seconds to do a web search and find the information they're looking for. > Have you considering taking the easy way and suggesting that they might be > mistaken? No. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org Wed Apr 10 02:29:25 2002 From: Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:21:30AM +0100 References: <004801c1e01e$19117620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020410092925.A35404@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:21:30AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Tony, you're wandering into the semantic quagmire of distinction between > > hardware and firmware and software. > > Yes, I know... The point is that many of these terms ('hardware', > 'software', 'firmware', 'microcode', 'state machine', etc) don't have > absolutely rigorous definitions. OK, we all know what, say 'firmware' is, > but then if I wire up a pile of gates to replace a ROM containing a > program (which is what we'd call 'firmware'), is the result 'firmware', > 'hardware', both, or neither :-) [...] > Perhaps you can give me a defintion of state machine which excludes a > (microcoded) processor. I will accept that not all state machines are > microcoded processors, but I'll have difficulty accepting any form of > processor that's not a stete machine. Here we have a fine example of what happens when computer-science meets electro-engineering... Mathematically there is no difference between a state-machine and microcode. Both are just different methods to describe a finite state machine. On a high level design view it's called state-machine if you draw a graph and "microcoded" if you write a program. On hardware-level you use a ROM for outputs and some logic to compute the next state for a microcoded design. In a state-machine-design both the outputs and the next state are computed by a single logic block. State Machine: ---->|------|---> IN ---->|State |---> OUT ---->|Mach. |---> | | |-->|______|--| next state | | --[StateReg]<-| Microcoded Machine: ---->|---|---> IN ---->| R |---> ---->| O |---> |--[Counter] | M |----| | |-->|___| \MUX/<--- IN | | |-[StateReg]<-- The MUX selects if next state is the next ROM-Address (counter) or an Address supplied in the ROM. The first design is smaller and faster and the second can be changed more easily... bye Thilo From alan.pearson at cramer.com Wed Apr 10 04:17:15 2002 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #915 Message-ID: > I actually would be very suprised if you could strip things > down enough to have a 'usable' system with the core 3.3 Developer > installed in under 100MB. Afterall, that would have to include the > swapfile as well as user space for whatever project you were working > on. I don't have a lot of extra stuff installed on mine, mainly just > CAPer, and the full NS 3.3 User and Developer isntalled takes nearly > 300MB. It's early days for me on NeXTs, so I don't know a whole lot about the development environment yet :-) Looking at the developer docs on channelu I got thinking that since the libraries are already there all I *really* need to start hacking about are the usual cc/ld/gdb tools (I could live without make, ar, nm etc) and the includes for the APIs. In theory I should be able to make all of these myself - I've got lots of versions of the GNU tools source lying around, it should be easy to build 68k versions of the ones I need, and I could cobble the includes together on an "as needed" basis using the developer docs and example code on the net as a starting point. Painful, but - here's the question - possible? Al. From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Wed Apr 10 04:42:42 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) References: <20020410051147.78436.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CB40912.2134339C@Vishay.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > >...(I just love RA disks and only need a 7x and a 60 to have the > > complete series 60, 81, 82, 90, 92, 7x.) > > Didn't the R-80 (RB80) also come in an SDI version? I know there's > an "RM80" Massbus version. I don't recall for certain if there was > an RA80 or not. There definitely _was_ an RA80, and at least one still _is_: it is the next device I'll try to bring up with my 11/34A. Not quite the same aera perhaps, but it saves space compared to the RM80 that did the job before: while the RM80 has the Massbus adapter in about 2/3 of the rack, the RA80 leaves about the same amount of space free for two RA82s. These will be for the MicroVAX, but having 120MB of space for an RSX system is more than plenty. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 10 07:03:21 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: Re: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) (Geoff Roberts) References: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <15540.10762.729009.96158@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 10, Geoff Roberts wrote: > I despair of ever getting my AS400 working. I have the machine, I have the > necessary adapter in the machine, I have terminals, I have twinax. > I don't have the 25 pin d to 8x twinax connector gizmo (I can supply an IBM > part no). I've had a few offered to me, but they all want very serious > money for it. Considering I paid $25AU for the lot I'm not that interested > in shelling out a couple of hundred for the terminal interface box and > cable. Is constructing the adapter an option? Twinax connectors can be had readily, at least on this side of the ocean. I actually have one of the adapter boxes you're talking about (for my AS/400); I'd be happy to crack it open and investigate its innards for you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Anybody who is willing to EAT YOU probably isn't St. Petersburg, FL such a good person to be hanging out with." -Sridhar From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 10 07:30:19 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <20020410045225.IZQP1180.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > From: Sellam Ismail > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they > > would find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not > > like you're going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. > > You're only likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some > > hobbyists rats nest of wires and relays. > > Sellam, why do you insist on labeling people with terms such as > "silly" and "lazy?" > > Have you considering taking the easy way and suggesting that they > might be mistaken? Or, have you considered someone might have actually wanted a Simon toy/game for its parts or to tinker with? -Toth From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 9 19:35:33 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? Message-ID: <001201c1e027$a1591200$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Paul Williams >I think that in the case I described to Jerome, there is a difference >between a VT52 and a later terminal in VT52 mode. The fact that the >surmised difference is insignificant hasn't stopped me from being >curious about it! The difference should be small and on the more esoteric edges of the spec. The SRM was developed after the VT100, so some things may have exception cases but VT52 and VT100 capability in latter terminals were based on VT52 and VT100 behavour by actual testing and also known behavour. >The most diligent of terminal emulator authors will fall into large >holes left by the external specifications, so I'm doing some work to be >as precise as I imagine the Video SRM is. Is that the document >containing chunks of Pascal that make a reference emulator? No, never saw Pascal code in the SRM (it's about 2 inches thick!) nor have I seen it outside DEC. It was part of the some 203 DEC STDs such as VAX archectecture, packaging and all manner of other things. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 9 19:40:41 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? Message-ID: <001901c1e028$60cdd3a0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> From: Carlini, Antonio > My quick check of the the VT102 and VT220 manuals > does not show "ESC /" as a recognised emulated > VT52 sequence. The VT100 manual makes it quite > clear how to react to random ESCape sequences. > It is pretty silent on VT52 emulation mode. I suspect > the VSRM is too (if we still have one in > the office, I'll check tomorrow). Vt100 and later were ANSI extended terminals. VT52 however was pre ansi. The behavour for unknown escapes in vt52 were generally no-ops or redundant decodes. The closest VT52 emulation for 80 char modes was H19 (it could not do the 132 wide and doublewidth). > When I wrote a VT102 emulator, many moons > ago, I know that since most VT52 escape > sequences were of the form "ESC x" then > I would have ignored "ESC x" for an > unrecognised "x" and displayed > "ABC" when fed "A ESC / BC". It seems > that real VT terminals do not do this. VT52 was very different from VT100 and later. many of the VT52 sequences were both constrained by 7bit ascii and it's very limited intelligence. > The only way to determine whether the VT1xx > is a faithful VT52 emulator is to see what > a real VT52 does. (Or read the schematics, > which I believe are online). True, though a real VT100 in VT52 mode is safe. Allison From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 10 08:07:26 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: <20020410051147.78436.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >...(I just love RA disks and only need a 7x and a 60 to have the > > complete series 60, 81, 82, 90, 92, 7x.) > > Didn't the R-80 (RB80) also come in an SDI version? I know there's > an "RM80" Massbus version. I don't recall for certain if there was > an RA80 or not. If memory serves, wasn't the RA80 a flaming pile of dog crap? Or is that a different one? Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 10 08:08:05 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: <20020410051147.78436.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I am missing several in the above lineup - the 82, 90 and 92. I also > happen to have a 3rd-party RA92 emulator with a pair of EDSI drives > in a small rack-mount box. Sits right on my KDB-50. 2.6GB of storage > at less than 250W draw. I'd love to get a load of RA74's. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 08:20:48 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:13 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB3B39D.533712C7@jetnet.ab.ca> <001f01c1e04a$559f75c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB3CC58.85C182C5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001401c1e092$87e0fac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:23 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > I've seen/heard of very few FPGA's getting much past 30% utilization, based on > > the gate counts proffered by the marketing droids. Remember that they count a > > 3-input gate as 3 2-input gates and a flipflop as 14 rather than 6 gates. > > Therefore, if you use a 32-bit LUT, the marketing people take credit for 32 * > > 14 gates, plus a huge multiplexing tree counted as though it were built from a > > sea of 2 input gates. Just the same, regardless of how you count 'em, the > > utilization under most circumstances remains well under half the available > > resources. > > Well regardless of how you count them, the chip has no free macro cells > left, and routing is very full with only a few free I/O pins. > AFAIK, the devices the vendors characterize as having "macrocells" are not FPGA's, but, rather, are CPLD's. CPLD's are quite easy to utilize more fully than FPGA's. If the devices you're using are CPLD's, e.g. 3000, 5000, 7000 or 9000-series Altera devices, you can, in fact use every macrocell. FPGA's claim to be quite a bit richer in registers, having as many as 16 registers per contact, but, as I said, it's unusual to be able to use more than 1 in 3 of those registers before clock distribution or other routing resources become scarce. > > > Some of the configurations that were easily produced using the old Altera > > APLUS+ software in a 24 macrocell Classic (EP910) can't be implemented in a > > Classic EP1810 (twice as large, twice as many macrocells) with the > > current-generation software because some of the constructs (bidirectional > > macrocells, latches, etc.) of which the old software was capable don't exist > > in the new software. It seem strange ... > > Lets not forget everything in BGA pin format too. That is the other > reason why it so full, I can't move to a larger FPGA and still stay in a > 84 pin PLCC package. > Well, the package isn't the issue where utilization of resources is concerned, though it certainly determines whether it's convenient to use a given device. At today's costs, the BGA devices are economical, but if even one of your run of 10 boards fails because of a flawed device attachment, the economy is in the toilet. So far, I still prefer the QFP's, since one can ensure their attachment to the PCB. Unfortunately, they don't lend themselves to prototyping, since, for example, the wirewrap adapters for a QFP-208 costs quite a bit (10x) more than the largest CPLD or FPGA in that package. > > > If you get well above that level of utilization, you must be VERY good! > Nope just luck and trial and error ... does feature X fit ... nope , how > about Y ... then feature Z.. > > > This particular application is an enhanced parallel port monitor, and the > > two-port register set is perfect for the application. The pair receives data > > in bytes and coughs it up in nybbles for display. In fact, I have a problem > > with the range of SRAMs that are avaisable today, as they're too deep, making > > them slow, and too narrow, meaning one has to use too many. I need 8 words of > > 256Kbits more often than I need 256K words of 8 bits. Since FPGA's are just > > SRAMs with feedback, it's obvious that shallow SRAMs of sufficient speed (<250 > > ps Taac) can be fabricated, but they just don't find their way into useable > > packages. > > $%#! packages all 8 bits wide, how the **** do you find 4 bit wide > memory for all the 12 bit cpu's out there. > 12-bit CPU's out there ??? Everybody knows that 12-bitters haven't existed since the '70's! After all, they stop existing on the day the last one is shipped. The device manufacturers stop considering a market as viable once the potential for 100K pieces per week per manufacturer is no longer there. > > > It has to do with layout. If you have 4 NAND gates in a package, costing what > > 4 gates would, you'd be tempted to share the gates among different circuits. > > If those circuits are more than 10mm apart, the routing uses up too much real > > estate, so a single gate is reasonable. > > Other than inverting a chip select, I really can't see why such glue is > needed. > Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you respin the PCB or you respin the programmable logic. If you respin the PCB, which takes less time and costs WAY less money than the latter, you may need to add a NAND or an OR, or whatever. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 08:32:46 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <004801c1e01e$19117620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020410092925.A35404@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Message-ID: <001c01c1e094$33c33fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, it's all done with software. You simply specify what you want and tell the software tools to generate it. Part will be implemented in firmware, and par in software to execute on the uniquely generated CPU. The trick is in knowing what you want before you start. If you don't you can't design ANYTHING. Unfortunately, that's how we get to CPU's like what Intel turns out, and software like Windows. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thilo Schmidt" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:29 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 01:21:30AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Tony, you're wandering into the semantic quagmire of distinction between > > > hardware and firmware and software. > > > > Yes, I know... The point is that many of these terms ('hardware', > > 'software', 'firmware', 'microcode', 'state machine', etc) don't have > > absolutely rigorous definitions. OK, we all know what, say 'firmware' is, > > but then if I wire up a pile of gates to replace a ROM containing a > > program (which is what we'd call 'firmware'), is the result 'firmware', > > 'hardware', both, or neither :-) > > [...] > > > Perhaps you can give me a defintion of state machine which excludes a > > (microcoded) processor. I will accept that not all state machines are > > microcoded processors, but I'll have difficulty accepting any form of > > processor that's not a state machine. > > Here we have a fine example of what happens when computer-science meets > electro-engineering... > Mathematically there is no difference between a state-machine and > microcode. Both are just different methods to describe a finite state machine. > I think the distinction lies within the design methodology. What's commonly referred to as a "state machine" is designed knowing all the states that will be used. That certainly can't be said of a microcoded CPU, which is normally designed as a superset of all the required states. The microcoded CPU does offer a solution which, ultimately, can be realized. Since the combination of engineering and management seldom can fully specify their requirements, more from lack of discipline than lack of ability, supersets are what one normally sees. That's why there are so many "bugs" that crop up. If engineers were allowed to design and build what's required instead of leaving unterminated "stubs" for future enhancements (which will never be implemented anyway) they could devise something more closely approaching bug-free products. > > On a high level design view it's called state-machine if you draw a graph > and "microcoded" if you write a program. > Today's tools require that you write a program. Whether you do it in C++ or VHDL is up to you, but it's a program either way. > > On hardware-level you use a ROM for outputs and some logic to > compute the next state for a microcoded design. In a state-machine-design > both the outputs and the next state are computed by a single logic block. > > State Machine: > > ---->|------|---> > IN ---->|State |---> OUT > ---->|Mach. |---> > | | > |-->|______|--| next state > | | > --[StateReg]<-| > > Microcoded Machine: > > ---->|---|---> > IN ---->| R |---> > ---->| O |---> |--[Counter] > | M |----| | > |-->|___| \MUX/<--- IN > | | > |-[StateReg]<-- > > The MUX selects if next state is the next ROM-Address (counter) or > an Address supplied in the ROM. > > The first design is smaller and faster and the second can be changed more > easily... > While this may have been true a decade or more ago, it's no longer the case. The "next-generation" tools will take a program in a high-level language and specify both the hardware and the software from a single source file, including the architecture and instruction set of the CPU if there is one. The software tools will determine which part goes in the FPGA and which goes on the hard disk. > > bye > > Thilo > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 08:20:48 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB3B39D.533712C7@jetnet.ab.ca> <001f01c1e04a$559f75c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB3CC58.85C182C5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001401c1e092$87e0fac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:23 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > I've seen/heard of very few FPGA's getting much past 30% utilization, based on > > the gate counts proffered by the marketing droids. Remember that they count a > > 3-input gate as 3 2-input gates and a flipflop as 14 rather than 6 gates. > > Therefore, if you use a 32-bit LUT, the marketing people take credit for 32 * > > 14 gates, plus a huge multiplexing tree counted as though it were built from a > > sea of 2 input gates. Just the same, regardless of how you count 'em, the > > utilization under most circumstances remains well under half the available > > resources. > > Well regardless of how you count them, the chip has no free macro cells > left, and routing is very full with only a few free I/O pins. > AFAIK, the devices the vendors characterize as having "macrocells" are not FPGA's, but, rather, are CPLD's. CPLD's are quite easy to utilize more fully than FPGA's. If the devices you're using are CPLD's, e.g. 3000, 5000, 7000 or 9000-series Altera devices, you can, in fact use every macrocell. FPGA's claim to be quite a bit richer in registers, having as many as 16 registers per contact, but, as I said, it's unusual to be able to use more than 1 in 3 of those registers before clock distribution or other routing resources become scarce. > > > Some of the configurations that were easily produced using the old Altera > > APLUS+ software in a 24 macrocell Classic (EP910) can't be implemented in a > > Classic EP1810 (twice as large, twice as many macrocells) with the > > current-generation software because some of the constructs (bidirectional > > macrocells, latches, etc.) of which the old software was capable don't exist > > in the new software. It seem strange ... > > Lets not forget everything in BGA pin format too. That is the other > reason why it so full, I can't move to a larger FPGA and still stay in a > 84 pin PLCC package. > Well, the package isn't the issue where utilization of resources is concerned, though it certainly determines whether it's convenient to use a given device. At today's costs, the BGA devices are economical, but if even one of your run of 10 boards fails because of a flawed device attachment, the economy is in the toilet. So far, I still prefer the QFP's, since one can ensure their attachment to the PCB. Unfortunately, they don't lend themselves to prototyping, since, for example, the wirewrap adapters for a QFP-208 costs quite a bit (10x) more than the largest CPLD or FPGA in that package. > > > If you get well above that level of utilization, you must be VERY good! > Nope just luck and trial and error ... does feature X fit ... nope , how > about Y ... then feature Z.. > > > This particular application is an enhanced parallel port monitor, and the > > two-port register set is perfect for the application. The pair receives data > > in bytes and coughs it up in nybbles for display. In fact, I have a problem > > with the range of SRAMs that are avaisable today, as they're too deep, making > > them slow, and too narrow, meaning one has to use too many. I need 8 words of > > 256Kbits more often than I need 256K words of 8 bits. Since FPGA's are just > > SRAMs with feedback, it's obvious that shallow SRAMs of sufficient speed (<250 > > ps Taac) can be fabricated, but they just don't find their way into useable > > packages. > > $%#! packages all 8 bits wide, how the **** do you find 4 bit wide > memory for all the 12 bit cpu's out there. > 12-bit CPU's out there ??? Everybody knows that 12-bitters haven't existed since the '70's! After all, they stop existing on the day the last one is shipped. The device manufacturers stop considering a market as viable once the potential for 100K pieces per week per manufacturer is no longer there. > > > It has to do with layout. If you have 4 NAND gates in a package, costing what > > 4 gates would, you'd be tempted to share the gates among different circuits. > > If those circuits are more than 10mm apart, the routing uses up too much real > > estate, so a single gate is reasonable. > > Other than inverting a chip select, I really can't see why such glue is > needed. > Well, you can't have it both ways. Either you respin the PCB or you respin the programmable logic. If you respin the PCB, which takes less time and costs WAY less money than the latter, you may need to add a NAND or an OR, or whatever. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Apr 10 08:44:32 2002 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Very Old Texas Instruments IC's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c1e095$d842cd10$0503eecd@bensene.com> Hello, I've come across some old TI IC's that I'm hoping someone out there can shed some light on. The date codes on the chips place them in late '67 to early '68. The part numbers are: SN1286 SN1287 SN1288 They are in 24-pin dual-inline plastic packages. The pin spacing 0.10 inch between pins, and 0.50 inch between the rows of pins. These three chips are on a board that is populated with SSI DTL & early TTL devices in the SN15xxx and SN58xx DTL families, and SN74xx (only SN7474) TTL devices. All of the SSI stuff has date codes ranging from 6742 (week 42 '67) to 6804 (week 4 '68). Can anyone out there shed any light on these old devices? Yes...the board with these chips on them is from an old Singer/Friden calculator. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 10 08:54:24 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: An example of a computer recycling / resale shop In-Reply-To: References: <20020410051147.78436.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020410085204.024a8640@pc> This one is in Madison, Wisconsin. It looks like they're offering businesses 50% of the selling price on their old stuff: http://www.cascade-assets.com/ And at their spring cleaning round-up, they charge $5 per monitor. - John From OwnedByDogs at clearsource.net Wed Apr 10 09:10:41 2002 From: OwnedByDogs at clearsource.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: <20020410005646.GU26665@mrbill.net> Message-ID: What a shame. I just recently joined the list hoping to find a system to run OpenVMS on. I spot one that needs a home and it's on the other side of the world. The search continues ... Kevin On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Bill Bradford wrote: > Please contact Darren directly if interested in this system; he would like > it to go to a good home. > > Bill > > ----- Forwarded message from Darren Harrison ----- > > From: "Darren Harrison" > To: "Bill Bradford" > Subject: Re: vax micro computer > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:54:31 +1000 > > Thanks Bill, > > It is a Digital MicroVAX 3100-80 with a storage expansion. Both are SCSI > compatible and the storage expansion also has a 9 track port. > > VAX 3100-80 > Model No. -470ZM-B9-A01 > SN - KA236W6545 > > Storage expansion > Model No. - SZ12J-JA > SN - AB23403IHO > > I did notice you were in Austin, TX. > The VAX and I are in Melbourne, Australia. Hope this doesn't cause any > problems. > > Thanks again, > Darren Harrison > Urban Science, > harrojnr@ozemail.com.au > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 10 09:27:12 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <3CB3589C.2714.47CD03EA@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 9, 2 09:09:48 pm Message-ID: <3CB467E0.29694.4BF0A481@localhost> > > Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs > > (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course > > boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under > > DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. > > A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about > > 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). > The problem with the V20 (and the V30, which IIRC is the '8086' version) > is that you only get the 8080 instruction set. And while CP/M will run on > an 8080, a lot of the more recent CP/M software needs a Z80. Yep, you're right. It did quite work well with my software. And IIRC he was talking about software development for an IMSAI, and that's and 8080, if not modified with a Z80 CPU board - which again would be no IMSAI anymore :) So a V20 with the 8080 mode is adequate. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 09:25:37 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > AFAIK, you'll need to wait for a broken lap... the AS/400 > twinax runs at > 1.5Mbit and I don't think that changes at all; besides, I That's pretty impressive for a console connection... > thought that the > AS/400 ran EBCDIC, not ASCII, which could make for some > interesting looking > login screens... ;-) You could be right there, but it's a very nice terminal. :) I might be willing to write an EBCDICGetty for it, or something. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 09:32:57 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > The main reason I have never played with them is I could never find a > Fuse Prom Burner schematic that looked reasonable. I still > would like to > do a TTL computer with fused based proms ( or EEPROM's as modern > substitute )for control logic. I am just finishing up a nice > FPGA design At one point I considered making an "illustrative project" of building a pseudo fuse blown PROM out of several inline type fuses -- like are used in power supplies, for instance. It would be possible to illustrate not only electronically, but visually, the way that the ROM works. :) "The black ones are 0s... ;)" (or is that a 1?) Anything beyond a size of several bytes would be unmanageable, of course. I figured you might fit 64 bytes in the size of a VHS tape if you use small fuses. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 09:35:40 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > You may have the answer, here, in that IF it's a SCSI device > (which it is) and > IF it's capable of behaving as a reader (which it is) then > it's up to the SCSI > subsystem to move the data into the system. IF the device, > in whatever mode > it "comes up" in is able to read the SCSI CD, then it should > be no different > than any other CD drive, irrespective of the ability to write > the device. For what it's worth, I tried on a MicroVAX 3100 last night, but it didn't work too well. (Just set there, basically) I might try a few other things. Doc mentioned he had trouble booting VMS with some drives that would (somehow) otherwise work, so I'll probably try the SPARC (Really, would you consider running anything other than VMS on a VAX? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 10 09:41:31 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <87y9fw1n3w.fsf@power.cnet.aladdin.de> Message-ID: <3CB46B3B.9029.4BFDC066@localhost> > >As a nice give away you also get an 8080 CPU for free. There > >have been two solutions AFAIR. One was booting MS-DOS and > >starting a bootloader for CP/M80 (a), the other was a CP/M > >disguise for MS-DOS (b). > I have a V20 PC-XT in working order. Do you still have those > tools. I'd like to try out CP/M on it. I have to see what's left. > IIRC, the German c't magazine once had such tools. Back then I already > had this V20 PC-XT, but didn't want to mess with CP/M. > After just having made the transition from C64 to PC (MS-DOS), CP/M > was "old stuff" back then :-) I may at least have the named c't issues at the lager. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Wed Apr 10 09:43:14 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: Message-ID: <003b01c1e09e$0becafc0$014f580a@ra.rockwell.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > Haus des Lehrers. They did, after all, have Pong. Later, I did find the > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/ website, and laughed at myself when I found > > what the other Simon was. > > > > I've already received two emails from people that want this classic > > computing treasure, even in pieces. > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? No, this is that other, equally classic and valuable treasure, the MB Simon game, circa 1980. > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, they would > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not like you're > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold variant. You're only > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats nest of > wires and relays. This Simon *is* a construction project. It apppears that one of the kids took it all apart to see what made it work. Most of the pieces are there. Maybe I'll put it on eBay with a starting bid of $150. Somebody out there will want to restore it and put it in a museum, next to the Microsoft Solitaire kiosk. ;-) Jonathan Engdahl From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 09:39:22 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while ...) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > I do happen to have some twinax baluns from a former tenant of a > shop that my former employer took over. They previous guys > had an AS/400 > and terminals on peoples' desks. The best computer in the place was a > 486 tower, in 2000! They were in the forklift business - Wait -- if I understand you properly, they had an AS/400, but the best computer was a 486? I'm missing something here, and I'm certain to be near enlightenment when I figure it out... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 09:43:52 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: ADM-3A: choose your colour? Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843CA@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Hmmm. Is the iMac available in ADM3a blue? and cream? I'm glad somebody else noticed this. Personally, I have my ADM-5 plugged into a VAXStation 2000 and a sign that says "iVAX" on it. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 09:51:20 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843CB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Everybody should own a PlexWriter anyhow. ;) > Seriously, though, considering the price of a SCSI Plexwriter, it'll > be worth a post to comp.unix.aix to make sure that that's what it > takes, and that a Plextor will work, for that matter. For what it's worth, you can get them refurbished from Plextor, supposedly, for about US$95 for a SCSI cd-rw of some sort. That's probably the best price I've found on them. The only reason I didn't get one instead of the Sony drive I finally settled on was that they didn't answer my email, and I really didn't feel like playing telephone games trying to find the right number ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Apr 10 09:58:43 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) References: <20020410000048.40506.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> <002801c1e028$f1618ba0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <15540.10762.729009.96158@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <012301c1e0a0$3ad2b080$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) > Is constructing the adapter an option? Might be. Depends what's in it. > Twinax connectors can be had readily, at least on this side of the ocean. I think I have some here somewhere. Only need one or two. > I actually have one of the adapter boxes you're talking about (for my AS/400); I'd be > happy to crack it open and investigate its innards for you. If you can do so without damage, I'd appreciate it. IBM implied it was more than just a cable interface, but they won't actually tell you what it does. I'd only need the pinouts for terminal 0 to start with so I had a console. Cheers Geoff in Oz From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 10 10:00:29 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > The main reason I have never played with them is I could never find a > > Fuse Prom Burner schematic that looked reasonable. I still would like to > > That's probably because fusible PROMs are notoriously difficult to 'blow' > correctly. They're also getting hard to find now, and as they're strictly > one-time-programmble, I really wouldn't want to use them in a new design. > > Some of the modern electricallly eraseable technologies are getting > pretty fast -- certainly fast enough for experimental processors. And > they're a lot easier to program. OK, the devices are massive by > comparison with the old bipolar PROMs. but they're also not expensive (at > least not compared to 2 or 3 of the old bipolar fusible-link PROMs, and > you need to reckon on buying at least 2 for every one you will use as you > will make programming mistakes), so it's worth 'wasting' most of the > capacity of the chip. > > > do a TTL computer with fused based proms ( or EEPROM's as modern > > substitute )for control logic. I am just finishing up a nice FPGA design > > but thinking this is going to be a pain to get a serial prom and have it > > burned too. 50,000 sure ! quantity 1, HA-HA you must be kidding. > > (EPC1441LC20 altera 440,800 bits -- any place in Canada). While TTL is > > low density you don't need to pay $$$ for a license for modern > > programiable logic, have the software needed 5+ years down the road! ( > > That is assuming TTL is still around 10 years from now ) > > For experimental and educational projects I much prefer TTL (including, > of course the CMOS versions of the TTL chips, like 74HCxxx parts). It's > easier to prototype with, easier to test (you can clip the 'scope or > logic analyser wherever you like), and easier to see what's really going > on. It's quicker to make small changes to the circuit as well (on an FPGA > design I did about 5 years ago, a full compile of the main chip took > overnigh (OK, PCs have got faster since then, but FPGAs have also got > larger!)). That meant every small change took a day to test. A soldering > iron and/or wire-wrap tool is a lot faster for changing a few connections > :-) You also aren't tied to a proprietry program running on some > computer/OS that I don't have... Actually It's not that bad, recompiling my Sweet16 16 bit CPU takes only about 5 minutes using Xilinx tools (on a fast machine though) The tools are available free (webpack). The tools do require Windows, but some people have reported success using them under WINE on Linux. > > Please don't attempt to convince me that FPGAs make more sense for > production. I don't need convincing of that... > > > > > > > > > The PDP11/05 was 2 full hex-height boards just for the CPU, so around 200 > > > > chips. It used mostly TTL, but also some PROMs containing the microcode. > > > > And the TTL included chips rather more complicated than just gates -- > > > > things like 16*4 RAMs, 4 bit latches, multiplexers, etc. > > > > This was ball park figures. A 4 bit shift register ,4 bit up counter > > ,dual 4-1 muliplexer would be the typical ALU parts. I was looking at > > I wouldn't call those SSI parts. > > > 74HCXX chips as 74LSXX is harder to find and lots more power. How ever a > > 74LS382 style alu would be used rather t han a 74LS181 if LS parts were > > Why? The '181 has many more operations, some of them useful.... > > > used. A 8 bit x 1 register file is a 8 bit addressable latch and a 8/1 > > multiplexer. The alu design is for a undefined 24 bit processor with a > > Sure... I guess 74x170s are really hard to find now :-(.. All these > wonderful chips I grew up using are discontinued :-( Nah, there 100's of them in a $19.00 FPGA... > > -tony > > Peter Wallace From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 10:01:53 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB3B39D.533712C7@jetnet.ab.ca> <001f01c1e04a$559f75c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB3CC58.85C182C5@jetnet.ab.ca> <001401c1e092$87e0fac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB453E1.7C9514E0@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > 12-bit CPU's out there ??? Everybody knows that 12-bitters haven't existed > since the '70's! After all, they stop existing on the day the last one is > shipped. The device manufacturers stop considering a market as viable once > the potential for 100K pieces per week per manufacturer is no longer there. True about manufacturing, but I wish one had more choice with computer hardware/software for the PC user.I think DEC sold the PDP-8 until about 1990. Since I can't find a 12/24 bit CPU that I like I am building my own. A 12/24 bit cpu chip could have came out around 1980 with the 8086/6800. Part of the challenge in the cpu design I am doing in FPGA is to have it emulate (for the most part) a fictional 12/24 bit cpu in a 40 pin dip.The last thing I added was a 8 bit refresh counter for dynamic memory and a single channel DMA for a floppy. Running at 4.9152 Mhz ( 800 ns memory access, 512Kb of ram ) I hope the Squash the XT market in 1983!. :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 10:05:25 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <004801c1e01e$19117620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020410092925.A35404@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> <001c01c1e094$33c33fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB454B5.1B8D36E8@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > While this may have been true a decade or more ago, it's no longer the case. > The "next-generation" tools will take a program in a high-level language and > specify both the hardware and the software from a single source file, > including the architecture and instruction set of the CPU if there is one. > The software tools will determine which part goes in the FPGA and which goes > on the hard disk. Yuck!!!! more bloated programs! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 10:50:14 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB45F36.5E6C5102@jetnet.ab.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > Actually It's not that bad, recompiling my Sweet16 16 bit CPU takes > only about 5 minutes using Xilinx tools (on a fast machine though) The tools > are available free (webpack). The tools do require Windows, but some people > have reported success using them under WINE on Linux. Details ... I want to know that ISA. :) > Nah, there 100's of them in a $19.00 FPGA... Nope Just the X brand of FPGA's. I use the A-brand of FPGA's because at the time the 10K10 was the only chip that looked BIG in a low cost FPGA kit. ( 2 years ago ). They don't have 16 bit dual port memory like X. I may do a CPU design with PLD's rather than one large FPGA as they have two advantages 1) They can be programed externaly and stay that way 2) they are about the right submodule size --- uart , floppy disk, bit slice for playing around with custom logic. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 10 10:54:06 2002 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002301c1e0a7$f1fc7960$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> any details on your Sweet16 design? Which fpga/cpld have you managed to squeeze it into? cheers heinz "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > Actually It's not that bad, recompiling my Sweet16 16 bit CPU takes > only about 5 minutes using Xilinx tools (on a fast machine though) The tools > are available free (webpack). The tools do require Windows, but some people > have reported success using them under WINE on Linux. From rhb57 at vol.com Wed Apr 10 11:01:38 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: The best terminal/PC tied to their AS/400 was a 486 (I think he meant besides the AS/400) which isn't bad if all they use the PCs for is a terminal emulator using the Windows client and an emulator card. They can hook to twinax that way and can work with ethernet, token ring or twinax. There was a way to drive an AS/400 control terminal from a token ring 16/4 or 10baseT ethernet card IIRC but it's been 2 yrs since I've monkeyed with the internals of an AS/400 so I forget how (or if it really is possible). The place I worked at had a schematic in one of the AS/400 manuals on the woring of the twinax block and I don't remember how the 6 port box was wired (if it had anything other than wires and connectors) => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith => Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:39 AM => To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' => Subject: RE: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a => while...) => => => > -----Original Message----- => > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] => => > I do happen to have some twinax baluns from a former tenant of a => > shop that my former employer took over. They previous guys => > had an AS/400 => > and terminals on peoples' desks. The best computer in the place was a => > 486 tower, in 2000! They were in the forklift business - => => Wait -- if I understand you properly, they had an AS/400, but the best => computer was a 486? => => I'm missing something here, and I'm certain to be near enlightenment => when I figure it out... => => Chris => => => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer => Amdocs - Champaign, IL => => /usr/bin/perl -e ' => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); => ' => From rhb57 at vol.com Wed Apr 10 11:01:32 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: <012301c1e0a0$3ad2b080$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: If the person needs bulkhead connectors, cable ends, etc for twinax then Computer Network Associates at http://cnaweb.com has many items - separate pins for recrimping (reutilizing all but the old pins) can be gotten from Blackbox but they run around 50 cents a pin. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Geoff Roberts => Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:59 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a => while...) => => => => ----- Original Message ----- => From: "Dave McGuire" => To: => Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:33 PM => Subject: Re: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a => while...) => => > Is constructing the adapter an option? => => Might be. Depends what's in it. => => > Twinax connectors can be had readily, at least on this side of => the ocean. => => I think I have some here somewhere. Only need one or two. => => > I actually have one of the adapter boxes you're talking about (for my => AS/400); I'd be => > happy to crack it open and investigate its innards for you. => => If you can do so without damage, I'd appreciate it. IBM implied => it was more => than just a cable interface, => but they won't actually tell you what it does. I'd only need the pinouts => for terminal 0 to start with so I had a console. => => Cheers => => Geoff in Oz => => From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 9 23:16:21 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <002201c1e046$a58872c0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> some items sorta conspired to drive cpus to multiples of 8bits. ASCII chars width of data paths internal to MOS cpus early on. byte wide memories, especially rom/prom/eprom Personally I like either 18 ot 24 bits and have thought that the PDP-8 with the right side (address portion) of the word stretched to 18 bits or better yet 24 would be a nice machine. 24bits is majik as it's a multiple of 8. PDP-8 addressing as 24bit 524288 word page, current and also there is page 0 addressing! A field would be 16MB. EMA would not be needed. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:21 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> 12-bit CPU's out there ??? Everybody knows that 12-bitters haven't existed >> since the '70's! After all, they stop existing on the day the last one is >> shipped. The device manufacturers stop considering a market as viable once >> the potential for 100K pieces per week per manufacturer is no longer there. > >True about manufacturing, but I wish one had more choice with computer >hardware/software for the PC user.I think DEC sold the PDP-8 until about >1990. Since I can't find a 12/24 bit CPU that I like I am building my >own. A 12/24 bit cpu chip could have came out around 1980 with the >8086/6800. Part of the challenge in the cpu design I am doing in FPGA is >to have it emulate (for the most part) a fictional 12/24 bit cpu in a 40 >pin dip.The last thing I added was a 8 bit refresh counter for dynamic >memory and a single channel DMA for a floppy. Running at 4.9152 Mhz ( >800 ns memory access, 512Kb of ram ) I hope the Squash the XT market in >1983!. :) > >-- >Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Wed Apr 10 11:27:02 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066591@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CB467D6.4F05C72D@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > I thought you had a VT52 - so just dump the ROM. Actually, > dump the ROM anyway - it must be past its sell-by date by now! I don't have the means to -- I think the microcode is contained in a bunch of 74187s. (I know, I'm laying myself open to a slapping from the electronics bods on the list!) Paul From rhb57 at vol.com Wed Apr 10 11:32:05 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: There are newer multiplexers (fiber even like the one at http://www.nlynx.com/pdfs/MULTI-001-ExpMultplx.pdf ) that allow you ro hook the MUX to the port that the 8 port brick normally attaches to, and alleviate the brick and twinax altogether. You might start snooping Decision Data, Blackbox and other midrange resellers to get ideas and then maybe you might luck out on an auction somewhere for a used one - as an interim to the 8 port brick. From rhb57 at vol.com Wed Apr 10 11:41:49 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: An example of a computer recycling / resale shop In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020410085204.024a8640@pc> Message-ID: Their prices are awful high for "scrap" even at the 50% off though. I can pick up Dell GXa and GXi PII units all day for $175 with monitor, mouse and KB, locally in Lousyville => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Foust => Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:54 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: An example of a computer recycling / resale shop => => => => This one is in Madison, Wisconsin. => => It looks like they're offering businesses 50% of the => selling price on their old stuff: => => http://www.cascade-assets.com/ => => And at their spring cleaning round-up, they charge => $5 per monitor. => => - John => => From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Wed Apr 10 11:47:03 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Does anyone have a live VT52? References: <3CB32E83.E0AE4A1@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB33F1D.9F886766@compsys.to> <3CB34859.E8AC4221@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> <3CB3A6F4.107F1415@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3CB46C87.299DBA76@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > As for the DEC VT52, with both upper case and lower case, the output > in local mode is ALWAYS "ABC" or "abc" when I type those five > characters in by hand in local mode. Thank you. > I was never able to test in normal mode since I could not seem to > get a cable which worked. A piece of wire between pins 2 and 3? > Any other sequences? No thanks. This was just clearing up an oddity in the operator test procedure where you go into local mode and type ESC Z (the ident sequence) and then observe a single character on the screen. The response string would be something like ESC / K, where the final letter varies with model of terminal and installed options. However, the terminal swallows ESC / on the way back, and just displays the final character. You can't try this in VT52 mode on later terminals because they swallow the entire sequence (which in their case is ESC / Z). Case closed, thanks Jerome. > It took a while, but I finally managed to get into local mode. > But now I think I can't get back into normal mode even though > the switches are in the original position - oh well. You may have to turn the unit off in order to effect the change, I'm not sure. You'll find the switch definitions in the DECscope User's Manual and the Maintenance Manual, both of which are online. Cheers, Paul From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Wed Apr 10 11:52:02 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) References: Message-ID: <3CB46DB2.FE96C8CF@Vishay.com> Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > What a shame. I just recently joined the list hoping to find a system to > run OpenVMS on. I spot one that needs a home and it's on the other side > of the world. The search continues ... Welcome to the club, Kevin! - If this machine wanted to be at a greater distance from here, it would need to leave this planet. :-( Why can't something like this happen in Germany? -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 12:07:03 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204100417.VAA24132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > What is the highest DOS I can run on a PCjr? ANY! DOS!, NOT WINDOZE 3.10 or above; NO WINDOWS95. But each successive version of DOS was bigger. If you don't further expand the memory, then later ones (5, 6.2x, 7.10, etc.) will be too cramped to have enough space to run most programs. I recommend NOT using anything before 2.00. And, if you use the Qumetrak 142 drive that IBM used, those drives are too slow for 2.00, which is why 2.10 was created. Thus, PC-DOS 2.10 is the ideal version of DOS to use unless/until you expand the memory. If/when you expand the memory to 640K, then I'd recommend running 6.2x. 6.2x is the only product in Microsoft's history where the primary design goal was to improve reliability rather than adding bells and whistles. > And how can I tell the > difference between a 720K drive and a 1.2MB 5.25" drive? (See, I really *am* > ignorant about old PC systems. ;-) Model number is the easiest way (although Tony might prefer tracing the signal from the write-current level pin) If you find a drive with an asterisk on the front, it is a very late model 360K. If there is no asterisk, then it is a 360K, 720K, or 1.2M (there also exist a few "weird" ones) > Is a 3.5" disk really practical in the jr? 720K is. 1.4M would require a different disk controller. Although a controller to do 1.2M (5.25") and 1.4M (3.5") could be relatively easily designed and manufactured, I don't recall ever seeing one for the Jr. The 720K is fully hardware compatible with the Jr. You would need to use either special patches to the OS, or use PC-DOS 3.20 or newer (using DRIVER.SYS) When used with the old style mounting brackets, it can bolt in in place of a 5.25. A "dual" or "combo" drive could be used to give you both a 3.5 and a 5.25 in the stock Jr case. The 3.5 would operate as a 720K, and the 5.25 could be used as either 360K or 720K, although I expect that you'd have to write a device driver to get the 360K mode (double stepping) to work, and you'd have to jumper the drive for 300RPM spindle motor speed, since the Jr doesn't provide a 300K data transfer rate to be able to use the 360RPM as the AT did. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 12:09:47 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Is a 3.5" disk really practical in the jr? > I have a PCjr with an add-on 3.5" disk drive chassis. You take the cover > off the PCjr case, then stack this unit on top, then place the lid on top. > I can't remember if it replaces the existing disk controller with > something else. Stock controller will do fine for 720K. I had a 360K 5.25 and a 720K 3.5 in two of my Jrs. Mounting brackets came from my Erector set. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 10 12:22:14 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Very Old Texas Instruments IC's In-Reply-To: <001801c1e095$d842cd10$0503eecd@bensene.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020410132214.0082d100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Rick, SOMEWHERE I have an old TI IC catalog from around that time period. I'll try and find it and look them up. Joe At 06:44 AM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, > >I've come across some old TI IC's that I'm hoping someone out there can >shed some light on. > >The date codes on the chips place them in late '67 to early '68. >The part numbers are: > >SN1286 >SN1287 >SN1288 > >They are in 24-pin dual-inline plastic packages. The pin spacing 0.10 >inch >between pins, and 0.50 inch between the rows of pins. > >These three chips are on a board that is populated with SSI DTL & early >TTL devices >in the SN15xxx and SN58xx DTL families, and SN74xx (only SN7474) TTL >devices. >All of the SSI stuff has date codes ranging from 6742 (week 42 '67) to >6804 >(week 4 '68). > >Can anyone out there shed any light on these old devices? > >Yes...the board with these chips on them is from an old Singer/Friden >calculator. > >Thanks, >Rick Bensene >The Old Calculator Web Museum >http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 12:18:16 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > At one point I considered making an "illustrative project" of building > a pseudo fuse blown PROM out of several inline type fuses -- like are used > in power supplies, for instance. > It would be possible to illustrate not only electronically, but visually, > the way that the ROM works. :) "The black ones are 0s... ;)" (or is that > a 1?) > Anything beyond a size of several bytes would be unmanageable, of course. > I figured you might fit 64 bytes in the size of a VHS tape if you use > small fuses. Since the it is for illustration, rather than for significant real usage, 16 bits should be plenty to show how it works. Glass fuses don't blacken unless you really whack them with a lot of current, and can sometimes be very hard to even see visually whether they are blown. Ceramic fuses, such as what VW used to use would be the easiest to visually check which ones are blown, but it's hard to find them in smaller sizes than 8 amps. Would you be programming in place, or "cheating" and assembly the unit with fuses that are already blown? From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 10 12:39:19 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002301c1e0a7$f1fc7960$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Heinz Wolter wrote: > any details on your Sweet16 design? > Which fpga/cpld have you managed to > squeeze it into? > > cheers > heinz I guess this is pretty much off topic but doing a simple CPU in a FPGA is kind of like going back in processor history, I'm having lots of fun looking through 1960's computer architecture books looking for ideas... The Sweet16 a simple pipelined 16 bit (data and instruction) accumulator oriented processor for our FPGA based servo motor control cards, using Xilinx Spartan II chips. In some ways the instruction set is a little like the PDP8 but with 16 basic instructions instead of 8, and indexed memory access via index registers(3) instead of via special memory locations. instructions: Addressing modes OPR Operate A/I (operate include load immediate, rotates etc) JMP D/*r JMPNZ D/*r JMPZ D/*r JMPNC D/*r JMPC D/*r JSR D AND D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ OR D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ XOR D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ ADD D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ ADDC D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ SUB D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ SUBB D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ LDA D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ STA D/*x/*y/*z/*x+/*y+/*z+ We used the KCPSM (Ken Chapmans excellent little 8 bit RISC CPU) before but found out that for multi axis motion control we ended up doing a lot of ld r1,xxx ld r2,yyy add r1,r2 st r2,yyy The lesson here being that for tasks that have a large data set, registers are not much use unless you can re-use them immediately, or have 100s of them(see below). We have a large number of 32 bit variables and constants. so even if we had a 16 or so 16 bit registers it wouldn't help much, heck, for what we are doing there aren't even any loops to speak of... so with an accumulator architecture this becomes lda yyy add xxx sta yyy a little more efficient... We also wanted a little more speed to be able to do 8 Axis with a >12 KHz sample rate, so we did a 16 bit design that is pipelined so that it can do 1 instruction per clock (with 2 delay slots after conditional jumps and some 2 clock data hazards) A crazy idea I had is to have a writeback bit in the memory reference instructions of a single address machine (the option of a free STA) my example on a single address machine would go from 3 to 2 instructions: lda xxx add,sta yyy This is basically free because the blockram in the SpartanII is dual ported If you want the (somewhat naive) VHDL for the Sweet16, I can email it to you... > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > Actually It's not that bad, recompiling my Sweet16 16 bit CPU takes > > only about 5 minutes using Xilinx tools (on a fast machine though) The > tools > > are available free (webpack). The tools do require Windows, but some > people > > have reported success using them under WINE on Linux. > > > Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 12:47:39 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Native CP/M References: <3CB3589C.2714.47CD03EA@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 9, 2 09:09:48 pm <3CB467E0.29694.4BF0A481@localhost> Message-ID: <002401c1e0b7$cee16700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It can be argued that if it uses code not executable on an 8080, it's not really CP/M-80 software. If it runs the 8080 that's supposed to be in an IMSAI, and supports the CP/M/IBM-3740 8" SSSD diskette format, it's close enough. The problem there is that the IMSAI FDC doesn't, IIRC, use soft-sectored diskettes. If you run an 8080-mode V20, you can run a BIOS written in 8086 code, which may offer considerable advantages over the 8080-only BIOS. What's more, if you do that, then you can incorporate ISA-bus cards into your S-100 system with an adapter, which can make development of a comfortable computing environment much easier. An example might be the video circuitry and keyboard. If you put an 8-bit ISA monochrome board on an S-100 card, you can then use the driver code in the PC BIOS (as in the printed listing in the Tech Ref) and you can use it pretty much independently of the CP/M system BIOS, since it will be called from the code to which control is transferred whenever there's a BIOS call. All the CP/M BIOS has to do is call the code that switches to native mode before interpreting the parameters of the call. I've looked long and hard at this, having wanted to use a V50 (16-bits, enhanced execution unit, integrated peripherals, DMAC, PIC, UART) in the same way. Mounting a couple of 8-bit ISA cards on an S-100 board is quite straightforward, and the signals seem to work out quite well, too. The combination I'd use would be an 8-bit monochrome display board and an 8-bit HDC. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Native CP/M > > > Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs > > > (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course > > > boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under > > > DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. > > > > A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about > > > 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). > > > The problem with the V20 (and the V30, which IIRC is the '8086' version) > > is that you only get the 8080 instruction set. And while CP/M will run on > > an 8080, a lot of the more recent CP/M software needs a Z80. > > Yep, you're right. It did quite work well with my > software. And IIRC he was talking about software > development for an IMSAI, and that's and 8080, if > not modified with a Z80 CPU board - which again > would be no IMSAI anymore :) So a V20 with the > 8080 mode is adequate. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 10 12:56:16 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > At one point I considered making an "illustrative project" of building > > a pseudo fuse blown PROM out of several inline type fuses -- like are used > > in power supplies, for instance. > > It would be possible to illustrate not only electronically, but visually, > > the way that the ROM works. :) "The black ones are 0s... ;)" (or is that > > a 1?) > > Anything beyond a size of several bytes would be unmanageable, of course. > > I figured you might fit 64 bytes in the size of a VHS tape if you use > > small fuses. > > Since the it is for illustration, rather than for significant real usage, > 16 bits should be plenty to show how it works. > Glass fuses don't blacken unless you really whack them with a lot of > current, and can sometimes be very hard to even see visually whether they > are blown. > Ceramic fuses, such as what VW used to use would be the easiest to > visually check which ones are blown, but it's hard to find them in smaller > sizes than 8 amps. > Would you be programming in place, or "cheating" and assembly the unit > with fuses that are already blown? > > Slowblow fuses are self indicating (if a liitle slow to program...) Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 12:56:40 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB45F36.5E6C5102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003801c1e0b9$1149b7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > Actually It's not that bad, recompiling my Sweet16 16 bit CPU takes > > only about 5 minutes using Xilinx tools (on a fast machine though) The tools > > are available free (webpack). The tools do require Windows, but some people > > have reported success using them under WINE on Linux. > > Details ... I want to know that ISA. :) > > > Nah, there 100's of them in a $19.00 FPGA... > > Nope Just the X brand of FPGA's. I use the A-brand of FPGA's because at > the time the 10K10 was the only chip that looked BIG in a low cost FPGA > kit. ( 2 years ago ). They don't have 16 bit dual port memory like X. > They (brand A) don't have the internal tristate resources either. That means lotsa MUXes to do what a tristate bus would do, and you know what that does to resource allocation, routing, and timing. > > I may do a CPU design with PLD's rather than one large FPGA as they have > two advantages 1) They can be programed externaly and stay that way 2) > they are about the right submodule size --- uart , floppy disk, bit > slice for playing around with custom logic. > If you look at the Cypress CPLD's, I think you'll find them large enough to put the whole she-bang, i.e. CPU, FDC, HDC, I/O, RAM, ROM on one device. The advantage is that with a CPLD theres no doubt at all about what the timing will be and whether you can use this register or that, since you can ALWAYS use 100% of the resources. What I find hard to fathom is that with the FPGA's, you pay for 16Mgates and can use barely 4M of them, and that only if you're fortunate enough to be able to route to every LUT. > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Apr 10 14:21:38 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Decitek 262 info wanted... Message-ID: <3CB490C2.7E4EDD8F@bluewin.ch> I obtained a cheap (10 USD) Decitek papertape reader from Ebay. ( A tip for those who believe that to be impossible : try .de instead of .com ) However it has a seemingly exploded IC on it : IC "I" below R5 and R4, has had it top half blown off..... Anybody with a similar reader could look up what kind of IC it was ? And if anyone has the pinning for this reader handy... I just saw that Decitek still exists. Do they react kindly to hobbyists ? Jos Dreesen From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Apr 10 13:50:23 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB4896F.E72E5075@bluewin.ch> > > The Philips P850 is not microcoded. All other P800 series machines I've > seen are, but those used either custom Philips bitslice parts (SPALU -- > Scratch Pad Arithmetic Logic Unit) or AM2900 series. I believe the P855 > was a microcoded TTL design, but I don't have the schematics to check > The P856 and P857 are TTL based, microcoded designs. Both used 4 74181's ( No 2901's) in their ALU and have around 200 TTL on a single PCB... Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Apr 10 14:01:38 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB48C12.C65A599F@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Playing aroud a bit with TTL using SSI parts, I get about 8-10 chips per > > bit on the average for the alu. For 16 bit computer that is about 160 > > chips. I would say 1/3 more for control or about 250 chips total. Does > > this sound right people with 16 bit TTL computers? > > IF by 'SSI' you mean just simple gates and flipflips ('74, '76, etc) then > it sounds far too few. > If it's really SSI then it really is a low count. Around '86 I build a 12 bit TTL based computer : 3 x 74ls181 as an alu, hardware stack build around 3 2111 SRAM's and 8K main memory ( 2x6264's) Total count : 85 TTL IC's ( MSI and SSI) and 5 SRAM's. It fitted neatly on 3 eurocards. It used no microprogramming and no PROM's. Building the same thing in SSI would have easily cost 6 times as much IC's. It was, however, a bit lacking in I/O : it had 4 nixie tubes, but no serial or parallel IO...... Jos Dreesen From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Apr 10 13:36:44 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Very Old Texas Instruments IC's References: <3.0.6.32.20020410132214.0082d100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CB4863C.1050308@dragonsweb.org> Joe wrote: > Rick, > > SOMEWHERE I have an old TI IC catalog from around that time period. I'll try and find it and look them up. > > Joe > Mine don't go back that far and a quick scan didn't reveal anything. Nor did xrefs in other mfrs. catalogs. I hate spending money for books instead of hardware, but it's time to add to the library, I think. jbdigriz From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 13:48:48 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Decitek 262 info wanted... In-Reply-To: <3CB490C2.7E4EDD8F@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20020410184848.54490.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com> I'm not sure if this is the spooler model - I have the spooler (private labelled GE/DECITEK) model and I really like it, it's super quality. I asked them a question via email and they helped me but it took a few days. The manual for my spooler model is $75.00, but, hey, this was an expensive piece of equipment and I'm glad to be able to get the manual at all. This is an apparently still made industrial machine! I have the DIP switches figured out enough to get it to work at 4800,e,8,1, and I can spool read or step read via switches on the front panel. If you have the same one, contact me off list and I will look it up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de Wed Apr 10 14:02:10 2002 From: thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001c01c1e094$33c33fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 10-Apr-2002 Richard Erlacher wrote: > Actually, it's all done with software. You simply specify what you want and > tell the software tools to generate it. Part will be implemented in I know, but that wasn't point. I tried to explain the difference between a "microcoded Design" and a "state machine". Or at least what I think it is... ;-) [...] >> On a high level design view it's called state-machine if you draw a graph >> and "microcoded" if you write a program. >> > Today's tools require that you write a program. Whether you do it in C++ or > VHDL is up to you, but it's a program either way. I think here lies the source of our misunderstanding: I didn't mean a program as in C or even VHDL. I didn't even think of any "design tool". What I meant (and wrote) was "design view". But I must admit that the word "program" wasn't the right choice either... ;-) A "microcode-program" (in my understanding)can be thought of as a very primitive kind of Assembler where you don't have anything but the current-state and the inputs. The Address of the ROM is the current-state (lets say the line-number of the programm). Every line of Code consists only of the "outputs" and one or more "next states". The "inputs" select which "line" comes next: Either the next "line" of Code (that's what the counter is for), or one of the "next states". I made a mistake there, the Microcoded Machine has to look like that: |---|---> OUT address | R |---> |-->| O |---> |--[Counter] | | M |----| | | |___| \MUX/<--- IN | | |-[StateReg]<-- >> The first design is smaller and faster and the second can be changed more >> easily... > While this may have been true a decade or more ago, it's no longer the case. Well, this is the classiccmp-mailinglist, isn't it? ;-) While I agree that today no one does such a design by foot but the principle is still the same. Even in modern^H^H^H^H^H^H currently marketed CPUs like the Pentium4 there are microcoded Areas where you can load updates to correct bugs. Intel has learned it's Pentium-Bug-Lesson. > The "next-generation" tools will take a program in a high-level language and > specify both the hardware and the software from a single source file, > including the architecture and instruction set of the CPU if there is one. > The software tools will determine which part goes in the FPGA and which goes > on the hard disk. Hardware-Software-Co-Design is a very interesting research area but IMHO it will still take a while till the results hit the market. bye Thilo -- The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." -- Isaac Asimov From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 10 14:08:20 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <3CAEF9D8.31957.244BB@localhost> References: <200204060009.TAA20898@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3CB4A9C4.7095.4CF20859@localhost> > > > Don't forget Diamond which is a GEM TOS "look-alike" version designed for the > > > Atari 8bits which original came on disk and then came on Super Cartridge > > > format. Designed by Reevesoft. > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > > for the PC? (Other then name) > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. Well, yes and no. first of all, it didn't run ontop of TOS ... TOS was tha name given by Atari to the whole OS software, including GEM. TOS looks like: BIOS/XBIOS GEMDOS (and GEM BIOS) VDI (and GDOS) AES DESKTOP The lowest layer is the BIOS, which is quite similar to a PC BIOS. Youll find most of the PC BIOS functions - realy, it looks amazing similar. Beside the BIOS there's the XBIOS for extended Functions, like screen base handling etc. The XBIOS also included functions for sound handling (interrupt driven play lists etc.) or the basic keyboard maps. On the falcon the DSP handling was done thru XBIOS calls. I'm not shure, but IIRC the very basic graphic primitives (set point, line draw, any kind of bitblit operations) where also handled by the XBIOS thru a service called Line A function, a feature provided by the 68K CPU - all opcodes sarting with Ax where reserved and lead to an exception. The basic idea of in the ST desin was to make graphic primitives as extened opcodes, so they could introduce a graphic coprocessor later on to speed up tha execution - and until then do it by software. The BIOS handles all basic setup stuff and the 'boot' process - usualy scanning disks for boot code to be executed. These boot files are usualy onl add ons (like hard disk drivers) and return to the BIOS, which finaly loads GEMDOS from ROM. Of course there could be a real boot process of a different OS, or a (newer) disk version of TOS. Next in Row is the GEMDOS. If you ever played with the DOS interface (Int 21h) of PC DOS >2.0, you know exactly what you find. Literaly a copy of DOS. Even the function numbers are the same. Due the different processor structur parameter passing was different. You had to push all parameters on the stack and issue a TRAP instruction (The BIOS did it the IBM way in registers). Even some internal structures where _very_ similar to MS-DOS 2.x - inclunding the bufeer handling. To be correct, internaly GEMDOS had anoter part called GEM BIOS, which was supposed to be a hardware independent BIOS ... well, or something like that. the structures where somewhat mixed, so one should considere GEMDOS/GEM BIOS as one thing. What DRI/Atari did until here was more or less recreating a PC DOS like environment, so GEM could be running on top. GEM itself was composed of two parts: the VDI (Virtual Device Interface) and the AES (Aplication Environment Services). The VDI did handle all graphic operations available to GEM programms. from line drawing to text output. All programm operations where made on to virtual devices, while the VDI did map them to real coordinates on real devices. To load new device drivers the GDOS (Graphics Device Operating System) was supplied. On the ST the GDOS was quite important, since the ROM only included a driver for the standard ST screen, mouse and keyboard. To use the device independant luxury of GEM with printers or whatever, new Drivers had to be made ... now, such a concept was in 1986 still revolutionary, so a lot of programms still used classic style printer drivers. It took several years (until ~ 1990) to get most applications realy use the advantages of the VDI (and GEM). Doesn't that sound like the storie of Win 3.x :) Well, the next (and for GEM topmost) layer is the AES. The AES did all the usual work of a GUI: Dialog boxes, menue bars, pop up menues, input fields, drop worn lists, window handling, etc. pp. The AES also offered services to support a desktop application - linke reading and writing the shell file (Which would be called WIN.INI under Windows :) As the final part, TOS included the DESKTOP.APP application, which supplied the user visible dektop. CP/M compatibility: As for the CP/M issue someone mentioned. I'm not shure if there ever was a GEM for CP/M. but there was the GSX (Graphic System eXtension). which incooperates most features of VDI and AES. Even things like the "application controll block" (Sorry, no idea about the original name), a structure which held all information about the actual prog, the used resources etc., basicly the root to build a multi tasking or at least multi application system (a part of the AES) was already available in GSX. Also all sata structures used for the VDI where exactly the same as found in the GSX. GEM is a real sraight foreward development from GSX (and CP/M 3.0). It may be true that the tale of CP/M 68k beening an accessor of TOS is originated on the fact that the first development tools sold by Atari where one on one ports of DRI tools for CP/M 68K - and noone did edit the manuals at all - you you found CP/M 68K mentioned on every other page. Also, if you where an early developer, you got a development version of CP/M 68k to run on a ST. > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded Windows. Interesting. > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. GEM and the PC: On the PC only the AES and VDI parts made up GEM. Apple never sued DRI about GEM itself. All the wuss was about DESKTOP.APP, the shell. When DRI lost, only the shell had to be changed, which lead to the infamous two window design of DESKTOP.APP in GEM 3 and up. Application programms where not included. And the Publisher didn't use DESKTOP.APP, but was the application itself. DRI did continue to develop GEM afterwards for some time, but with the 'fixed' DESKTOP.APP, sales where not as good as it could be. GEM itself did get some inprovements, especialy with additional drivers and so on for GEM 3 and 4 - and all you had to do is install the new version and then copy back your old DESKTOP.APP :) In fact GEM was a real good example of hardware independant programming. At this time I used a SIEMENS PC-D as main computer. A 80186 machine with NO IBM hardware compatibility at all. GEM 1.2 was the only Version ever ported to this computer, but is was no problem at all to install GEM 2 and GEM 3 on the machine from standard PC distributions. All I had to do was to put the SIEMENS specific drivers back into the right directories and add their name to the driver lists. I liked it a real lot. Anyway History H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 10 14:20:10 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <002401c1e0b7$cee16700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB4AC8A.18352.4CFCDCB0@localhost> > > > > Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs > > > > (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course > > > > boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under > > > > DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. > > > > A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about > > > > 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). > > > The problem with the V20 (and the V30, which IIRC is the '8086' version) > > > is that you only get the 8080 instruction set. And while CP/M will run on > > > an 8080, a lot of the more recent CP/M software needs a Z80. > > Yep, you're right. It did quite work well with my > > software. And IIRC he was talking about software > > development for an IMSAI, and that's and 8080, if > > not modified with a Z80 CPU board - which again > > would be no IMSAI anymore :) So a V20 with the > > 8080 mode is adequate. > It can be argued that if it uses code not executable on an 8080, it's not > really CP/M-80 software. I wouldn't go that far. A Programm can rely on a CPU which is an enhanced version of a 8080 (read can run unmodifiend 8080 code), but uses CP/M-80 as operating system is still CP/M-80 software. I guess the AT is the PC equivalent of a Z80 machine. You still run the same MS DOS as on an 8088 XT, but some applications may need a 286 to run. > If you run an 8080-mode V20, you can run a BIOS written in 8086 code, which > may offer considerable advantages over the 8080-only BIOS. What's more, if > you do that, then you can incorporate ISA-bus cards into your S-100 system > with an adapter, which can make development of a comfortable computing > environment much easier. An example might be the video circuitry and > keyboard. If you put an 8-bit ISA monochrome board on an S-100 card, you can > then use the driver code in the PC BIOS (as in the printed listing in the Tech > Ref) and you can use it pretty much independently of the CP/M system BIOS, > since it will be called from the code to which control is transferred whenever > there's a BIOS call. All the CP/M BIOS has to do is call the code that > switches to native mode before interpreting the parameters of the call. Jep. that kind of stub code is needed. But wheren't there some problems when switching back ? It wasn't all easy. > I've looked long and hard at this, having wanted to use a V50 (16-bits, > enhanced execution unit, integrated peripherals, DMAC, PIC, UART) As for the enhanced execution parts, the V20 and V50 are the same. Both are from the CPU part like the 186 - or like the 286 sans virtual adressing. > in the same > way. Mounting a couple of 8-bit ISA cards on an S-100 board is quite > straightforward, and the signals seem to work out quite well, too. The > combination I'd use would be an 8-bit monochrome display board and an 8-bit > HDC. See, where is the idea of using an S100 bus system and tehn adding ISA cards ? I'd rather take a XT clone, plug in a V20 and let the hardware be standard (8 Bit) PC hardware - and MS-DOS as superior BIOS (Well, in fact I belive MS-DOS is still one of the best, if not the best bootloader avbailable). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 14:16:48 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843D1@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Since the it is for illustration, rather than for significant > real usage, > 16 bits should be plenty to show how it works. > Glass fuses don't blacken unless you really whack them with a lot of > current, and can sometimes be very hard to even see visually > whether they > are blown. > Ceramic fuses, such as what VW used to use would be the easiest to > visually check which ones are blown, but it's hard to find > them in smaller > sizes than 8 amps. > Would you be programming in place, or "cheating" and assembly the unit > with fuses that are already blown? Ideally programming in place, with a home-made "programmer" -- probably it would be mostly switches, etc, with no logic in it... very simple design. At least that was the idea. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 10 14:46:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: New MV-II boots! And, of course, Questions.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I was hoping the BA23 would be quieter than the BA123. It's not. ?!?!? What's up with your BA123? My PDP-11/73 is one of the quietest machines around here, probably the only thing quieter is the latest two PC's and the G4/450 PowerMac. Have you got all the skins on it? Mine used to be fairly noisy, but the combination of getting all the skins, and switching to small 3.5" SCSI HD's has it so quiet it ran all night Sunday because I forgot it was on! (I've been running it enough lately I'm not looking forwards to my next electric bill!) > The memory board, which is a DataRAM 63016 C0. Listed online as a 16M >board some places and 32M others. The system sees it as 2 16M boards. >Is this kosher? I suspect this is a trick on DataRAM's part to fit 32MB on one board. It's possible that the CPU will only recognize memory boards up to 16MB. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Apr 10 14:56:59 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:14 2005 Subject: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <3CB3589C.2714.47CD03EA@localhost> References: <200204091558.g39Fwvqc000293@dcms.com> Message-ID: <3CB452BB.27673.E0043A@localhost> I have been meaning to pick up a V-20 for my Zenith ZFA-161 for some time mainly for the speed-up without knowing about the V-20s CPM capabilities. The luggable 161 has a passive backplane and I always thought you had to get a CPM card for it. This clarifies things. It seems you can also use it on a PCjr and DEC Rainbow, and I imagine any 8088 box. Among my archived stuff I also found a program from a one-man operation called Micro Computing Assoc. which it appears is now defunct. It has all the operating codes and specs for the V-20. It describes how it booted in Native 8088 or CPM Emulation. It would seem fairly trivial to switch modes from what I could see. Unfortunately my programming capabilities are zilch except for some assembly I learned in my digital course many moons ago. Anyone know where this bootloader may be found or willing to take up the challenge of writing a small boot loader ? I can send you the V-20 specs program (actually just some sort of viewer program with a data file). On the Rainbow I saw mention of either an EPROM mod (it's documented according to www.old-computers.com) or choosing the OS on start-up. I can't remember the boot-up choice on my 'bow and it's buried right now. The Zenith has an excellent monitor program. I'm wondering whether that would also show a system choice if fitted with the V-20. The http://www.pcenterprises.com/newbegin.htm upgrade site has info on the PCjr one. Lawrence > > > I'm trying to build a development platform for my Imsai. I've tried various > > CP/M emulators but haven't found one I like yet. > > > Has anyone sucessfully run CP/M on a PC without running under dos and/or > > windows? > > Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs > (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course > boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under > DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. > > A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about > 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). > > As a nice give away you also get an 8080 CPU for free. There > have been two solutions AFAIR. One was booting MS-DOS and > starting a bootloader for CP/M80 (a), the other was a CP/M > disguise for MS-DOS (b). > > The Bootloader programm loaded an 8080 BIOS which supported > hard MS-DOS Hard disks into memory, did setup the memory > tables for the 8080 and switched into 8080 mode to boot CP/M > from HD. There where several problems regarding disk storage, > so the system worked only reliable from floppy disks. I heared > also about a Version which booted from almost ordinary CP/M > floppies. All switching code fitted into the PC boot sector. > I never had this version, and I didn't play a lot with the > hard disk version, but I used the other programm (b) for > several years. > > You could start CP/M programms right from the MS-DOS command > line, or switch into CP/M command line. The Programm itself > replaced CP/M and redirected all CP/M functions to MS-DOS > functions - thanks to the similarities :) There where even > 'utilities' to switch DOS pathes wihile in CP/M, etc. pp. > The performance was quite acceptable (faster than a 8080 at > 5 MHz), and you could use almost all PC Hardware. > > I used this programm to run CP/M applications for several > years under MS-DOS - I never had the time to redo them for > the PC. I even kept the XT some time as CP/M machine when > I already had an 386. The machine was also equipped with a > screamer add on board, so the CPU was running most of the > time at 8 MHz. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Apr 10 14:56:59 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: HD drives and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204100417.VAA24132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Fred Cisin at "Apr 9, 2 05:12:18 pm" Message-ID: <3CB452BB.18526.E003FE@localhost> In doing a search for NEC V-20 chips I ran across this site http://www.pcenterprises.com/newbegin.htm It has a lot of upgrades and info for the PCjr, PS/2 and Tandy 1000. The site was last updated in April so it is still current. Lawrence > > > I installed a PC HD 5.25" floppy in my long-suffering PCjr by replacing the > > > old IBM drive. It all seems to work on DD disks, but not HD disks. Do I need > > > to upgrade something else? (being somewhat ignorant on old PCs). > > > Yes. the computer. > > Welcome to one of the least popular collectibles - the Edsel of CC. > > Actually, I'm rather fond of it. It has much more personality than a plain > boring old XT clone. Now that I have Cartridge BASIC (tip of the hat to > Sellam :-) I'm able to do more practical things with it once I understand > what's actually going on ;-) > > > The disk controller only does "DD". It operates at a 250K data transfer > > rate, and was intended to work with 360K drives ONLY. > > A 720K drive (either 3.5" or 5.25") will work with it just fine, except > > that it isn't supported by PC-DOS 2.10. If you switch to PC-DOS 3.20 or > > above, then it'll work with DRIVER.SYS. > > What is the highest DOS I can run on a PCjr? And how can I tell the > difference between a 720K drive and a 1.2MB 5.25" drive? (See, I really *am* > ignorant about old PC systems. ;-) > > Is a 3.5" disk really practical in the jr? > > > If you expand the RAM further (with a 512k sidecar), then you might be > > able to run Windows 3.0 on it if you are willing to devote some time and > > effort to configure it. > > I have the RAM disk software running, which takes up most of the 128K > internal RAM expansion, and ended up writing an autoexec.bat that copies > most of the useful DOS files into the RAM disk, makes the COMMAND.COM in > RAM the permanent shell, and makes the default path the RAM disk. This is > much, much faster. :-) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- if (you.canRead(this)) you.canGet(new job(!problem)); -- Seen at JavaOne --- lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:58:41 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Any interest in ROM 00 Apple IIgs? Message-ID: Hello all, I have in my posession, three tested, working, Rom 00 Apple IIgs machines, complete with monitor, 3.5" and 5.25" floppies, keyboards, and mice. I am wondering if anyone would like them, for a nominal price + shipping. Before anyone misunderstands me, I am not asking for tons of money for these beasts, as I realize they're pretty crippled (They had defective video chips, and the ROM version doesn't allow you to run GS/OS). They do run most Apple IIe sowftware, and could be considered as an accelerated IIe. Not the best example of a IIgs, however, if you are looking for a machine to complete your collection, they are available. Note that NONE of them are the "Woz" variant. I got these (along with several "ROM 01" and "Rom 00 upgraded to Rom 01" IIgs machines) from a local school. I would like to save them from the dump, and help the school out as well. Therefore, I will take offers on these machines until Thursday 04/11, 11:59PM Eastern US time. ANY AND ALL proceeds will be donated back to the school the computers came from. I will separately notify the highest bidders that they have won.... Your chance to own a small part of Apple II history, and help out a local school as well.. I will ship anywhere, worldwide, that the US Postal Service allows me to ship, and I will consider shipping just a CPU (i.e., no monitor, or no drives, or whatever combination you want), as it will cut down on shipping... The units will be shipped from US ZIP code 01473, and to give you an idea, a monitor weighs about 25 lbs boxed, and a CPU weighs (I think) 8 lbs. boxed... I will quote actual weights and shipping charges to anyone who asks.... Thanks! Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 15:21:06 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Twinax (was Re: Last run at the local Uni Surplus for a while...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020410202106.91471.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > The best terminal/PC tied to their AS/400 was a 486 (I think he meant > besides the AS/400) Sorry... Yes... that's what I meant. I did not mean to imply that I thought a WinTel machine was "better" than an AS/400. -ethan > => -----Original Message----- > => > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > => > ...The previous guys had an AS/400 and terminals on peoples' desks. > => > The best computer in the place was a 486 tower, in 2000! > => > => Wait -- if I understand you properly, they had an AS/400, but the best > => computer was a 486? > => > => I'm missing something here, and I'm certain to be near enlightenment > => when I figure it out... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 10 15:37:27 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Dig UNIX Aplha V3 CDROM Kit References: Message-ID: <3CB4A287.515A119B@rain.org> I ran across this and have no use for it. This package is *complete* and has everything on the included Part Listing (dated 21-Jun-96) including six CD-ROMs and documentation. I would love to get thousands for it (okay, stop laughing) but since I have no idea what it is worth, best offer over $10.00 plus shipping by Thursday evening at 11:00 pm PST. PS - I tried the first come/first server for the past few days. Time to *maybe* even out the playing field for those that don't live online :). From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 10 15:54:05 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020410165405.01696890@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: >> At one point I considered making an "illustrative project" of building >> a pseudo fuse blown PROM out of several inline type fuses -- like are used >> in power supplies, for instance. >> It would be possible to illustrate not only electronically, but visually, >> the way that the ROM works. :) "The black ones are 0s... ;)" (or is that >> a 1?) AFAICT, burned fuses should be a logic 0... but I've never worked with anything less than LSI/MSI, so... >> Anything beyond a size of several bytes would be unmanageable, of course. >> I figured you might fit 64 bytes in the size of a VHS tape if you use >> small fuses. Maybe more with picofuses, but they'd be hard to change [see below] >Since the it is for illustration, rather than for significant real usage, >16 bits should be plenty to show how it works. >Glass fuses don't blacken unless you really whack them with a lot of >current, and can sometimes be very hard to even see visually whether they >are blown. >Ceramic fuses, such as what VW used to use would be the easiest to >visually check which ones are blown, but it's hard to find them in smaller >sizes than 8 amps. >Would you be programming in place, or "cheating" and assembly the unit >with fuses that are already blown? If you actually put sockets on the board and insert the fuses into that, you could simulate an EPROM/Flash[like] part. ;-) It'd take a while to "erase & re-write", but hey... ;-) Just my $0.000000000002 [CDN], and it ain't worth that! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Apr 10 15:55:52 2002 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <01KGEHDIKYN6923ZKC@cc.usu.edu> Thilo Schmidt wrote: > The Address of the ROM is the current-state (lets say the line-number > of the programm). Every line of Code consists only of the "outputs" and > one or more "next states". The "inputs" select which "line" comes > next: Either the next "line" of Code (that's what the counter is for), > or one of the "next states". I made a mistake there, the Microcoded Machine > has to look like that: > > |---|---> OUT > address | R |---> > |-->| O |---> |--[Counter] > | | M |----| | > | |___| \MUX/<--- IN > | | > |-[StateReg]<-- Actually, there are a grundle of ways to do this. Here's a scheme that doesn't require a counter, but requires wider microcode: > |---|---> OUT > address | R |---> > |-->| O |---> > | | M |------| > | | |----| | > | |___| \MUX/<--- IN > | | > |-[StateReg]<-- In this case, each microcode word contains two addresses: one for when the input is true and one for when the input is false. If you want to go to the "next" word, the appropriate field in the microcode contains the current address +1. And then there's: > |---|---> OUT > IN ---->| |---> > address | R |---> > |-->| O |---> > | | M |-----| > | |___| | > | | > |-[StateReg]<-- This does away with the mux by using the input as one of the address bits. It doesn't get more simple than this. You used to be able to get registered EPROMs; using those, the state and output registers are built into the EPROM and all you have to do is wire it up. And write a grundle of microcode, of course... The Firefox QBUS Adapter was implemented this way. Some of the outputs ran back around to control a mux to select which input was being examined by the microcode for a given state. Hmm, I'm going to have to turn your drawing sideways, I think: > INPUTS > ||| > ||| > VVV > +----------->\MUX/ > |+-------+ | > || | | > || V V > || +--------------+ > || | ROM | > || +--------------+ > || | ||| > || V VVV > || [State and Output reg] > || | ||| > |+--------+ ||| > +----------------+|| > || > VV > OUTPUTS Since this was done using registered PROMs, the only parts are ROMs and the mux. And a synchro register for inputs; I don't recall whether I synchronized the inputs before or after the mux. Am I the only person who sees registered SRAMs intended for cache and things "Hey! A huge microcode store that can run really fast!"? Some of them even have JTAG inputs you could use to load the microcode. Fundamentally, a state machine consists of inputs, outputs, a state register, and a next state decoder. A microcoded system just uses a ROM for the next state decoder. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 15:55:46 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB48C12.C65A599F@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3CB4A6D2.85DEE68C@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > Playing aroud a bit with TTL using SSI parts, I get about 8-10 chips per > > > bit on the average for the alu. For 16 bit computer that is about 160 > > > chips. I would say 1/3 more for control or about 250 chips total. Does > > > this sound right people with 16 bit TTL computers? > > > > IF by 'SSI' you mean just simple gates and flipflips ('74, '76, etc) then > > it sounds far too few. > > > > If it's really SSI then it really is a low count. > > Around '86 I build a 12 bit TTL based computer : 3 x 74ls181 as an alu, hardware > stack build around 3 2111 SRAM's and 8K main memory ( 2x6264's) > Total count : 85 TTL IC's ( MSI and SSI) and 5 SRAM's. It fitted neatly on 3 > eurocards. > > It used no microprogramming and no PROM's. > Building the same thing in SSI would have easily cost 6 times as much IC's. > > It was, however, a bit lacking in I/O : it had 4 nixie tubes, but no serial or > parallel IO...... > > Jos Dreesen Well NIXIE tubes make nice I/O for a 12 bit computer. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From meltie at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 10 16:00:41 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: VAX 11/750 Power Message-ID: <1018472445.2169.9.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Hello all, I would be extremely grateful if those of you with VAX 11/750s out there could either take pictures or draw diagrams of how the PSU blocks are connected in this wonderful system. I have (finally) received my first piece of Big Iron but it has death of the 2.5v PSU, and all the PSU bricks were removed and handed to me before I could note their positions. Also, if any of you have a terminal going spare (vt or hardcopy, either ist gut) then shout out and we can talk... Manifest -------- VAX 11/750 RA60 with two media RA80 Original DEC cardboard software box full of dusty DECTapes including all VMS install tapes. CPU Printset ~1 Metric Ton of dust and decayed foam Thanks Alex From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 16:19:39 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <002201c1e046$a58872c0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3CB4AC6B.F9136B12@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > some items sorta conspired to drive cpus to multiples of 8bits. > > ASCII chars > width of data paths internal to MOS cpus early on. > byte wide memories, especially rom/prom/eprom > > Personally I like either 18 ot 24 bits and have thought that > the PDP-8 with the right side (address portion) of the word > stretched to 18 bits or better yet 24 would be a nice machine. here is a nice 17? bit computer of that era http://www.xpuppy.demon.co.uk/molecular.htm > 24bits is majik as it's a multiple of 8. > > PDP-8 addressing as 24bit 524288 word page, current and > also there is page 0 addressing! A field would be > 16MB. EMA would not be needed. > The one feature the PDP-8 and most other machines of that vintage (pre 1970) is the idea of a stack pointer for stacks and local variables. That is one reason C never really took off on 8 bit micros because local variable addressing was so clumsy. The 8086 did have base addressing and that saved it from being a failure as far as high level languages are concerned. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 16:23:45 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020410212345.6532.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I am missing several in the above lineup - the 82, 90 and 92. > > I'd love to get a load of RA74's. I wouldn't mind that, either. My RA7x drives (2) are, ISTR, RA70s. At least they were cheap (2 drives plus two KDA50s for $50 about 4 years ago). All I need now are some internal SDI cables so I can either put these RA70s in my MDB EDSI tray or on a sled in a BA123. I suppose I could pull the RX50 from the front of the 8200, but getting to the I/O bulkhead would be a mess. The other place I'd love to put an RA70 is inside an 11/750 - it's much larger than what I used to have for a system disk (emulated RM03 on 1/2 of an SMD drive). It would be nice to have a self-contained 11/750 (not counting tape drive) - easier to plan around. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 16:28:24 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020410212824.21369.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >...(I just love RA disks and only need a 7x and a 60 to have the > > > complete series 60, 81, 82, 90, 92, 7x.) > > > > Didn't the R-80 (RB80) also come in an SDI version? I know there's > > an "RM80" Massbus version. I don't recall for certain if there was > > an RA80 or not. > > If memory serves, wasn't the RA80 a flaming pile of dog crap? Or is that > a different one? It probably was. I don't think I ever saw one in the real world. The RA81 with the wrong HDA rev was a steaming pile of quality for sure - as has been hashed over countless times, the glue breaks down and the heads crash soon after. We had a customer 15 years ago, Colorado Community College, who had several *rows* in a machine room of 42" cabs full of RA81s. They complained to DEC that they lost an RA81 HDA about once a month. DEC Field Circus kept insisting that the drives were reliable and had an acceptable MTBF. Turns out that the MTBF divided by the enormous number of drives they had, equalled 30 days - they were both right. The solution, of course, was fewer spindles of higher capacity. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 16:30:31 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB45F36.5E6C5102@jetnet.ab.ca> <003801c1e0b9$1149b7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB4AEF7.CEE38CF4@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > If you look at the Cypress CPLD's, I think you'll find them large enough to > put the whole she-bang, i.e. CPU, FDC, HDC, I/O, RAM, ROM on one device. The > advantage is that with a CPLD theres no doubt at all about what the timing > will be and whether you can use this register or that, since you can ALWAYS > use 100% of the resources. What I find hard to fathom is that with the > FPGA's, you pay for 16Mgates and can use barely 4M of them, and that only if > you're fortunate enough to be able to route to every LUT. A routes better I think than X, but still I had to play with the design allot to get it to fit. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From univac2 at earthlink.net Wed Apr 10 16:37:32 2002 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Decitek 262 info wanted... In-Reply-To: <3CB490C2.7E4EDD8F@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: on 4/10/02 2:21 PM, Jos Dreesen at jos.mar@bluewin.ch wrote: > I obtained a cheap (10 USD) Decitek papertape reader from Ebay. ( A tip for > those who believe that to be impossible : try .de instead of .com ) > However it has a seemingly exploded IC on it : IC "I" below R5 and R4, has had > it top half blown off..... > Anybody with a similar reader could look up what kind of IC it was ? According to the manual, IC "I" is a SN74H103N. I can send you a physical copy of the manual, if you like. Just let me know. -- Owen Robertson From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 10 16:38:28 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843D6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > If you actually put sockets on the board and insert the fuses > into that, > you could simulate an EPROM/Flash[like] part. ;-) It'd take a while to > "erase & re-write", but hey... ;-) Exactly what I wanted to do. I thought about setting them flat against a board and using the small (half-inch long) "glass tube" inline fuses. If I can get those to smoke the glass dramatically enough when they blow, it would be easy to replace the blown parts with fresh fuses for a new program. Not to mention that it may be fun to be able to re-arrange the fuses ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Apr 10 16:46:27 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: VAX 11/750 Power Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665A1@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Hello all, I would be extremely grateful if those of you with VAX >11/750s out there could either take pictures or draw diagrams of how the >PSU blocks are connected in this wonderful system. You have the printsets. You'll find that in addition to the schematics, they also include (almost) enough information to build the PSU from scratch. If you have The Installation Manual (there are several, two of which you can find at http://208.190.133.204/decimages/moremanuals.htm ... except it's still down...) specifically EK-SI75F-IN-001 has some pictures on pp1-18, 2-1 The printset is probably a better guide! >I have (finally) received my first piece of Big Iron but it has death of >the 2.5v PSU, and all the PSU bricks were removed and handed to me >before I could note their positions. Oddly enough, the last one I saw had exactly the same problem. The 2.5V PSU was not regulating properly. >Also, if any of you have a terminal >going spare (vt or hardcopy, either >ist gut) then shout out and we can talk... I don't have one spare, but people who do might want you to pin down your location a little ... Antonio From red at bears.org Wed Apr 10 16:54:55 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843D6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > If I can get those to smoke the glass dramatically enough when they blow, > it would be easy to replace the blown parts with fresh fuses for a new > program. Not to mention that it may be fun to be able to re-arrange the > fuses ;) Maybe I missed something important, but rather than installing blown fuses, couldn't you just.. have an empty socket? ok r. From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:59:00 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: VAX 11/750 Power References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665A1@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CB4B5A4.219D3346@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > > Also, if any of you have a terminal going spare (vt or hardcopy, > > either ist gut) then shout out and we can talk... > > I don't have one spare, but people who do might want you to pin down > your location a little ... Indeed. I've got shedloads of WY-520s to get shot of (in the UK). Paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:09:55 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001301c1e032$cf254f40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 9, 2 07:55:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2009 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/878d1e70/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:40:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 9, 2 10:57:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/781dc174/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:42:38 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: <20020410051147.78436.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 9, 2 10:11:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/1ea31b34/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:50:56 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <20020410092925.A35404@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> from "Thilo Schmidt" at Apr 10, 2 09:29:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2714 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/da1bf745/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 17:03:42 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <002401c1e0b7$cee16700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 2 11:47:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020410/1fb23f62/attachment.ksh From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 10 17:24:13 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: New MV-II boots! And, of course, Questions.... In-Reply-To: ; from doc@mdrconsult.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 08:27:25 CEST References: Message-ID: <20020411002413.M346075@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.10 08:27 Doc Shipley wrote: > Does the KA655 CPU make this a MV-3800, a MV-III, or a MV-II with a > KA655? Kind of a MV III. The MV 3800 comes in a BA213. The MV III is normaly KA650 based. So this may be a "MV III+" > The memory board, which is a DataRAM 63016 C0. Listed online as a > 16M board some places and 32M others. The system sees it as 2 16M boards. > Is this kosher? Yes. DEC did the same trick... The KA650 can only manage 16 MB per memory board. To save slots, when higher density RAMs where available, There where 32MB boards that emulate two 16 MB boards to make the CPU feel well. > The 3-position CPU-RAM ribbon cable is plugged at one end and at the > middle connector. Does it matter? No. > I'd _really_ like to run the RX50 instead of the TK50. > Unfortunately, I don't have a cable. > Can a PC floppy cable be modified to work? Yes. You need a simple 1:1 cable without twist. > I see references to terminating the last RD5x on an RQDX3. Uhh. I never did any termination on a RDxx. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vaxzilla at jarai.org Wed Apr 10 17:34:05 2002 From: vaxzilla at jarai.org (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: VAX 11/750 Power In-Reply-To: <3CB4B5A4.219D3346@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Paul Williams wrote: > "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > I don't have one spare, but people who do might want you to pin down > > your location a little ... > > Indeed. I've got shedloads of WY-520s to get shot of (in the UK). Paul "Two-Sheds" Williams? -brian. From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 10 17:37:59 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Dig UNIX Aplha V3 CDROM Kit References: <3CB4A287.515A119B@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CB4BEC7.1D7C2975@rain.org> Just realized I can't spell. This is the Dig UNIX Alpha V3 CDROM kit, with DIGITAL UNIX on the front of the package. The documentation makes a reference to V3.2 if that helps. Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I ran across this and have no use for it. This package is *complete* and > has everything on the included Part Listing (dated 21-Jun-96) including > six CD-ROMs and documentation. I would love to get thousands for it > (okay, stop laughing) but since I have no idea what it is worth, best > offer over $10.00 plus shipping by Thursday evening at 11:00 pm PST. > > PS - I tried the first come/first server for the past few days. Time to > *maybe* even out the playing field for those that don't live online :). From meltie at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 10 17:45:09 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: VAX 11/750 Power In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665A1@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665A1@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <1018478711.2488.1.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> > I don't have one spare, but people who > do might want you to pin down your > location a little ... Ah indeed. Manchester, UK. Strange, I usually remember this as I am proud to be the only know collector round here... Alex From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 17:52:33 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > If I can get those to smoke the glass dramatically enough when they blow, > > it would be easy to replace the blown parts with fresh fuses for a new > > program. Not to mention that it may be fun to be able to re-arrange the > > fuses ;) On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > Maybe I missed something important, but rather than installing blown > fuses, couldn't you just.. have an empty socket? To be able to have an electrically programmable read only memory, rather than a ROM. Erasable would not be feasable, other than manual recreation. From meltie at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 10 17:51:28 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Sun IPC Keyb/Mouse Message-ID: <1018479091.2492.8.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> My SO has reminded me to ask if any of you have keyboards and mice going spare which would work with her Sun IPC, or a lead on a surplus/second-hand supplier for these, in the UK ;) Thanks for putting up with me Alex From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 17:57:50 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <3CB452BB.27673.E0043A@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > It seems you can also use it on a PCjr and DEC Rainbow, and I imagine any > 8088 box. Not all. It would NOT work as an 8088 replacement in a Gavilan (where lower power consumption would have been a plus) But at some point, somebody wrote out instructions for some minor motherboard mods to be able to use it. I don't have those any more; they're probably in one of the totes of Gavilan stuff that I handed over to Uncle Roger. From meltie at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 10 17:57:26 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018479449.2551.14.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> > I'm pretty sure the RA80 does exist. There's the R80 (custom SMD-like *puts hand up* I've got one sitting in my cellar at the moment. Alex From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Apr 10 18:13:46 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks References: Message-ID: <3CB4C72A.85D1D2C9@compsys.to> >Doc wrote: > Haven't tried my CD-RW on a non-Intel box as boot device, but I know > that the 512-byte boot block is not the only issue. For instance, I > have a Sony 8x reader with an IBM "microcode upgrade" that will boot my > SparcStation, every RS6k I own, and my Alphas, ***unless*** it's a > VMS/OpenVMS CD. The BabyVAXen also won't boot off it. The Indy won't. > OTOH, My Plextor 32x, May It Rest In Peace (I dropped it!), would boot > all the above except VMS CDs. > I know that early RS/6000s did some sense checking that narrowed the > field considerably. I _guess_ that VMS does the same. About the rest, > I'm clueless. > Back to reading 512-byte blocks, both my old TEAC 55R and my new > Yamaha SCSI CDRW have a jumper to allow 512-byte reads, as do most of > the better SCSI readers. Jerome Fine replies: I have a VERY old SCSI CDROM drive which seems to be able to recognize 512 byte blocks, although I have not made a final test. It does not recognize a CD-RW media, but I have tested it with a CD-R that I used when I made a copy of my backup files for the complete system. I am using Windows 98 (which I dislike), but the Ersatz-11 emulator runs very well under Windows 98, so I don't have a choice if I want to run my PDP-11 programs under this emulator. By the end of the month, I will make a copy of a bootable set of files on a CD-R and test the SCSI CDROM drive to see if it will boot RT-11. I do have one question for a problem I don't have a solution for. Tim Shoppa made an RT-11 Freeware CD with files under the ISO file structure at the beginning of the CD and other files under the RT-11 files structure at the end of the CD. Somehow (probably on a VAX or an Alpha under VMS), he was able to master a CD with both file structures. The essence is that there are 114,688 sectors (of standard 2048 bytes each) of data starting at sector 212,992 (an exact multiple of 16,384 - in this case 13 * 16,384). The 114,688 sectors hold 7 RT-11 partitions (where each partition is 16,384 sectors or 33,554,432 bytes). Under Ersatz-11, I can: MOUNT DU1: CDROMI: (where I: is the Windows 98 drive letter) then under RT-11, I can SET DU1: UNIT=1,PART=13 SET DU2: UNIT=1,PART=14 .... SET DU7: UNIT=1,PART=19 At this point under RT-11, all 7 RT-11 partitions can be accessed as DU1:, DU2:, ....., DU7: It seems as though we have a similar requirement, although I am already able to solve your problem. Under "Nero Burning", the "Burn Image" option does exactly what you wish - you can write a file on the hard disk drive to the CD-R or CD-RW starting at sector ZERO on the CD media - IF the CD is empty. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 10 10:18:46 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sellam, why do you insist on labeling people with terms such as "silly" and > > > "lazy?" > > > > Because I find it silly and lazy that people can't take two seconds to do > > a web search and find the information they're looking for. > > Well, FWIW, I thought 'Simon' refered to the electronic game. And because > I thought I knew what it refered to, I didn't think I needed to do any > web searches for it. > > OK, I was wrong. This does not make me silly or lazy, though.. If you followed (i.e. actually read) the thread then you knew we were talking about the relay-based Simon computer. So to those who did actually read the thread and then still bugged John Keys for information about it without first running a web search which would have yielded several good hits, I find you to be silly and lazy. All others are pardoned. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 18:19:22 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: pdp11/83 rsx11m+ system, lots of questions! In-Reply-To: References: <002401c1e0b7$cee16700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 2 11:47:39 am Message-ID: <3CB4D68A.17461.31F5728@localhost> Hi all, it's time for me to get to grips with this 11/83 system I got many years ago. It has a fuji 2246E ESDI HDD hung off an emulex QD21 MSCP controller. The hard drive is starting to show its age and is making worrying clunk noises & spin down-up restarts occasionally (have to say that the ESDI disks had appeared far more reliable than the RD5x drives in my BA123 MicroVAX-II system, both of which are now bricks) How easy are replacement ESDI disks to come by? I think I should image the RSX11M+ system that is on the 11/83 disk (I restored it from some magtape backups some years ago from an 11/93 system I was using then but I have no working 9track drives around any more :( I either need to re-learn MACRO-11 and RSX11M+ programming skills (online manuals anywhere?) or have some kind person throw me some code to upline dump every sector from the disk... Would be nice if I could then use this image under an emulator! I know that this RSX11M+ sysgen didn't include support for TK50 tapes, alas, else I could put a M7546 controller in and do an image dump (if I could remember how to drive BRU that is). And I don't have the 11M+ install tapes any more. Unless there is a way to re sysgen support for MU (I think that's TK50 device name?) on the installed system? sorry to ramble on :) thanks for any help, greg From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 18:26:49 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002001c1e0e7$31d69c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, my recollection may be different from that of others simply because of when it was formed, but back in the '70's, when bit-slice was becoming quite popular as a means for creating a computer from hardware of various sorts, the notion of microcode was used to describe the code for the particular bit-slice family, often the AMD 2900 series, that was used to create a specific design. Each instruction in the set attributed to the final target system was implemented in some number of more simple instructions for the bit-slice engine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thilo Schmidt" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:02 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > On 10-Apr-2002 Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Actually, it's all done with software. You simply specify what you want and > > tell the software tools to generate it. Part will be implemented in > I know, but that wasn't point. I tried to explain the difference between > a "microcoded Design" and a "state machine". > Or at least what I think it is... ;-) > > [...] > >> On a high level design view it's called state-machine if you draw a graph > >> and "microcoded" if you write a program. > >> > > Today's tools require that you write a program. Whether you do it in C++ or > > VHDL is up to you, but it's a program either way. > I think here lies the source of our misunderstanding: I didn't mean a > program as in C or even VHDL. I didn't even think of any "design tool". > What I meant (and wrote) was "design view". But I must admit that the word > "program" wasn't the right choice either... ;-) > Well, that's how it's being envisioned for the next generation of development software, preliminary bits and pieces of which are being tried out on the EDA community. You write a program/description for a task, and the software generates the program for the combination of programmable logic and software that accomplishes the task. It's not defined in advance which functions will be implemented in hardware/firmware and which will be accomplished strictly in software, and, in fact, the hardware configuration may change on the fly in order to facilitate the task. You're right, of course, in that it will take a while. I remember when the first efforts on VHDL were being touted in the US defense industry. It took a decade before a useable for m of VHDL was available and even the versions available today have many quirks not forseen in the early phases of its development. Of course the FPGA vendors didn't have their fingers in the pie back then. > > A "microcode-program" (in my understanding)can be thought of as a very > primitive kind of Assembler where you don't have anything but the > current-state and the inputs. > A quick look at the details associated with the AMD2900 series will clear up whatever gaps there are in your understanding. The tools were not that primitive, and the instructions, though simple and quick when compared with single-chip CPU's of the time, were quite effective. The 2900 series was far and away the most widely used microcoded component series, IIRC. > > > While I agree that today no one does such a design by foot but the principle > is still the same. Even in modern^H^H^H^H^H^H currently marketed CPUs > like the Pentium4 there are microcoded Areas where you can load updates > to correct bugs. Intel has learned it's Pentium-Bug-Lesson. > > > The "next-generation" tools will take a program in a high-level language and > > specify both the hardware and the software from a single source file, > > including the architecture and instruction set of the CPU if there is one. > > The software tools will determine which part goes in the FPGA and which goes > > on the hard disk. > > Hardware-Software-Co-Design is a very interesting research area but > IMHO it will still take a while till the results hit the market. > > bye > > Thilo > -- > The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new > discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." > -- Isaac Asimov > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 18:36:54 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB4CC96.378002F@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > If I can get those to smoke the glass dramatically enough when they blow, > > > it would be easy to replace the blown parts with fresh fuses for a new > > > program. Not to mention that it may be fun to be able to re-arrange the > > > fuses ;) > > On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > Maybe I missed something important, but rather than installing blown > > fuses, couldn't you just.. have an empty socket? > > To be able to have an electrically programmable read only memory, rather > than a ROM. > > Erasable would not be feasable, other than manual recreation. Why not use reed relay switches with a hidden magnets behind them, slighty smoked to look like fuses. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 18:45:34 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Native CP/M References: <3CB4AC8A.18352.4CFCDCB0@localhost> Message-ID: <002801c1e0e9$ced74220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Native CP/M > > > > > Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs > > > > > (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course > > > > > boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under > > > > > DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. > > > > > > A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about > > > > > 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). > My first PC had a 10 MHz 80186 as its CPU, though it was an XT architecture. It easily outperformed the early (6 MHz) PC/AT types, though I'm not sure why. > > > > > The problem with the V20 (and the V30, which IIRC is the '8086' version) > > > > is that you only get the 8080 instruction set. And while CP/M will run on > > > > an 8080, a lot of the more recent CP/M software needs a Z80. > > > > Yep, you're right. It did quite work well with my > > > software. And IIRC he was talking about software > > > development for an IMSAI, and that's and 8080, if > > > not modified with a Z80 CPU board - which again > > > would be no IMSAI anymore :) So a V20 with the > > > 8080 mode is adequate. > > > It can be argued that if it uses code not executable on an 8080, it's not > > really CP/M-80 software. > > I wouldn't go that far. A Programm can rely on a CPU which is an > enhanced version of a 8080 (read can run unmodifiend 8080 code), > but uses CP/M-80 as operating system is still CP/M-80 software. > I guess the AT is the PC equivalent of a Z80 machine. You still > run the same MS DOS as on an 8088 XT, but some applications may > need a 286 to run. > Well, I said it could be argued. I didn't say you'd agree. It's just a question of how you define things. However, if it won't run on any machine that can run the OS, there's a problem. Now, the V20 should run the OS just fine, and should, actually have just as much trouble with Z80 instructions as an 8080 would. > > > If you run an 8080-mode V20, you can run a BIOS written in 8086 code, which > > may offer considerable advantages over the 8080-only BIOS. What's more, if > > you do that, then you can incorporate ISA-bus cards into your S-100 system > > with an adapter, which can make development of a comfortable computing > > environment much easier. An example might be the video circuitry and > > keyboard. If you put an 8-bit ISA monochrome board on an S-100 card, you can > > then use the driver code in the PC BIOS (as in the printed listing in the Tech > > Ref) and you can use it pretty much independently of the CP/M system BIOS, > > since it will be called from the code to which control is transferred whenever > > there's a BIOS call. All the CP/M BIOS has to do is call the code that > > switches to native mode before interpreting the parameters of the call. > > Jep. that kind of stub code is needed. But wheren't there some problems > when switching back ? It wasn't all easy. > True, but though it wasn't easy, once accomplished, the time penalty for it would be made up in increased performance in the BIOS. > > > I've looked long and hard at this, having wanted to use a V50 (16-bits, > > enhanced execution unit, integrated peripherals, DMAC, PIC, UART) > > As for the enhanced execution parts, the V20 and V50 are the same. Both > are from the CPU part like the 186 - or like the 286 sans virtual adressing. > The '286 didn't inherently support VM as did the '386, BTW. It did have memory management, but only in a primitive way. It wasn't as primitive as the already clumsy segmented architecture of the 8086 family. > > > in the same > > way. Mounting a couple of 8-bit ISA cards on an S-100 board is quite > > straightforward, and the signals seem to work out quite well, too. The > > combination I'd use would be an 8-bit monochrome display board and an 8-bit > > HDC. > I wouldn't do that to cook up a replica of an old system, but I would to create a development tool with which to work up software for an Imsai or other old-timer. and, speaking of old-timers, do you know whether the V20 does the "address mirror" thing common to 8080's, where the low address byte appears on the high address bus during I/O cycles? I've got a couple of old S-100 boards that rely on that for some of their functions. > > See, where is the idea of using an S100 bus system and then adding ISA > cards ? I'd rather take a XT clone, plug in a V20 and let the hardware > be standard (8 Bit) PC hardware - and MS-DOS as superior BIOS (Well, in > fact I belive MS-DOS is still one of the best, if not the best bootloader > available). > I personally never learned to like CP/M-86, so it doesn't interest me. I do, however, like the notion of running the very fast 8080 internal to the V50 at 8-16 MHz, with its 16-bit data bus, just to hot-rod the OS. What's more, interfacing an IDE drive would suddenly become utterly trivial. It wouldn't even interest me a little bit to run CP/M 86 on the same platform. I won't wander off into the argument over whether MSDOS is actually "better" than CP/M. However, if you're running a PC, then I think MSDOS, which was designed for it is the OS you should use. If you want to run CP/M on a PC, I still favor CP/M-80 via an emulator over running CP/M 86 on a PC. For one thing, it offends me that the "better" hardware running the "better" software was actually slower than comparable Z80 hardware running the CP/M-80. That's why it took so long for me to move to a PC. I couldn't justify spending nearly $5k (which was what a PC/XT with a 50 MB hard disk cost back then) only to have it run at 75% or less the speed of my already familiar and functional CP/M box with that size hard disk. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 19:15:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843C7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <3.0.1.32.20020410165405.01696890@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <004001c1e0ed$fb597760$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, on most PROMs, a blown fuse yields a 1, since the unprogrammed state of the fuse is a 0. Moreover, if you stop to think about it, if you have a fuse and pull it low, it will open the link to ground, hence produce a 1. I suppose registered PROMs might behave differently, since their polarity can be inverted. I've also gotten hold of a TI PAL recently, which, unlike all the MMI and AMD PALs I'm accustomed to using seems to have an inverted fuse array. This was quite surprising in light of my prior experience with MMI, Signetics, and AMD. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:54 PM Subject: RE: TTL computing > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: > >On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > >> At one point I considered making an "illustrative project" of building > >> a pseudo fuse blown PROM out of several inline type fuses -- like are used > >> in power supplies, for instance. > >> It would be possible to illustrate not only electronically, but visually, > >> the way that the ROM works. :) "The black ones are 0s... ;)" (or is that > >> a 1?) > > AFAICT, burned fuses should be a logic 0... but I've never worked with > anything less than LSI/MSI, so... > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 19:34:29 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB4CC96.378002F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > If I can get those to smoke the glass dramatically enough when they blow, > it would be easy to replace the blown parts with fresh fuses for a new > program. Not to mention that it may be fun to be able to re-arrange the > fuses ;) How about using circuit breakers? Then you would have a manually erasable PROM, without further expenditure each time that you program it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 19:41:57 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > If you followed (i.e. actually read) the thread then you knew we were > talking about the relay-based Simon computer. So to those who did > actually read the thread and then still bugged John Keys for information > about it without first running a web search which would have yielded > several good hits, I find you to be silly and lazy. All others are > pardoned. I lost track of the discussion, since it seemed that there were people talking about BOTH. I thought that I had a copy of Berkeley's book, but it turns out that what I have is his "Giant Brains". I will not contest that I am lazy. or crazy. But probably NOT silly. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 10 19:42:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <006001c1e0f1$bf8e51c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:09 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > I think you may be mistaken there, Tony. If you wire up a set of gates to > > generate the outputs otherwise generated by a PROM, it's hardware, not > > firmware, since it's hard-wired and not programmable. > > By _your_ definition, sure... > > The point is, I can't see a real difference between a ROM chip and a > decoder + gates. Electronically they're much the same thing. Physically, > to change the program, I have to use a soldering iron. It is _not_ clear > to me why one is called firmware and the other called hardware. > A ROM chip doesn' have firmware, since it's hard-wired at the factory. A PROM/EPROM/EEPROM, PAL/GAL, CPLD, FPGA or whatever, that you can program to suit your own definition, falls in a different class. A RAM, which doesn't retain that definition between power-on cycles, falls into a different category. > > > > > Likewise, if you configure a CPLD to contain what (a logic function) would > > otherwise have been generated with discrete LSI/MSI/SSI logic, it's still > > firmware. From what I have gathered over the years. If it can't be removed > > So by your definition, a CPLD or FPGA are firmware? Most people consider > them as hardware, I think. > I said it was a quagmire, didn't I? It happens that some folks differentiate between hardware and firmware based on whether you can touch it or not. You can't touch firmware, at least not in a practical sense, just as you can't touch software. It happens that both firmware and software can live in hardware. If you can touch it, however, it's hardware. Have you ever touched software? I suppose you could touch firmware in the form of a bipolar PROM in a ceramic package that got too hot, exposing the device, including its fuse array, and you could even read it, which you certainly can't do with software on a diskette without external equipment. Of course you can read software on a paper tape as well ... The distinction between hardware and firmware is in that you can't tell from looking at the part as you buy it, what it's going to be. If you buy a 7474, you know it's going to be a 'D' flipflop with positive-going clock and negative-going direct set and direct clear inputs, and true and complement outputs. It doesn't go without saying that you won't use it as an R/S flipflop, but its definition as a 7474 does define what its capabilities are. That's true in a much more general sense of PALs, FPGA's, and EPROMS, too, but not so much, and the distinction lies in the gray area somewhere. The fact is that some devices, devices being hardware, were intended to hold firmware. That's their function. They are hardware, but they hold firmware. Firmware is like software, except that it's not so easy to change, and, though it stays on the hard or floppy disk, it doesn't stay in the memory into which it's loaded when the power goes down. If it does, it's firmware. Now that brings up the matter of battery-backed RAMs ... > > > from the device without making the function of the item go away, then it's > > hardware or firmware. If it's possible to remove it and leave the > > If I remove the operating system from any normal computer, the computer > ceases to function in the same way. So you're claiming the OS is hardware > or firmware, yes? > If you take out the hard disk, you've removed the piece of hardware whereon the software resides. If a piece of code has to be loaded into a memory from which it executed by the CPU each time it's required, i.e. when the power is turned on, it's probably software. Now, the contents of an FPGA have to be loaded from an EPROM or EEPROM of some sort, either directly or indirectly via a processor or other means. I don't want to say that's not firmware, since it's stored in a device normally used for firmware, but it seems that it's stored in RAM, lost when power is lost, so I can't argue with someone who wants to say that what's in an FPGA is software. I can't disagree that it's firmware either, however. > > > device/system of which it's a component intact, having simply removed that one > > function it's probably firmware. If it is copied from one medium to another > > So a serial card is firmware? I remove it from my PDP8/e and the PDP8/e > still works much the same as before. All I remove is one function (namely > a serial I/O link). > Nope ... if you can touch it, it's hardware. You can't touch firmware, and you can't touch software, though you can touch listings of them. As I said before, it's a semantic quagmire, simply because evolution of the technology has blurred the boundaries. In general, however, people seem to agree that if it is something you can touch, it's hardware. If it's something that's "there" when you turn on the power, it's firmware, and if it llives on a mass storage medium and goes away along with the power, then it's probably software. > > > before it becomes part of the system, it's probably software, particularly if > > it resides in a locus capable of being routinely modified, it's probably > > software. (notice the need for "wiggle-room")/ > > Yes, the above examples are silly. We can all give conventional examples > of hardware, software and firmware. But IMHO there are some things that > are most definitely 'on the edge' (the 'ROM' made from decoders and OR > gates is one such). This does not make the terms useless, of course. > > -tony > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 10 19:43:23 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: New MV-II boots! And, of course, Questions.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I was hoping the BA23 would be quieter than the BA123. It's not. > > ?!?!? What's up with your BA123? My PDP-11/73 is one of the quietest > machines around here, probably the only thing quieter is the latest two > PC's and the G4/450 PowerMac. Have you got all the skins on it? Mine used > to be fairly noisy, but the combination of getting all the skins, and > switching to small 3.5" SCSI HD's has it so quiet it ran all night Sunday > because I forgot it was on! (I've been running it enough lately I'm not > looking forwards to my next electric bill!) Err, no skins. The BA23 came out of a rack, so the front bezel is all there is. I _do_ have a set of skins, but the PDP-11/53 is wearing them, and I'm not inclined to evict it. :) Probably if I turned the VAX so the fans face the wall instead of me, it would help, too. When somebody donates a SCSI adapter to my collection, I'll be divesting all the MFM drives myself. I'm not holding my breath. > > The memory board, which is a DataRAM 63016 C0. Listed online as a 16M > >board some places and 32M others. The system sees it as 2 16M boards. > >Is this kosher? > > I suspect this is a trick on DataRAM's part to fit 32MB on one board. It's > possible that the CPU will only recognize memory boards up to 16MB. Pretty much my guess, too. The disk has half of NetBSD on it (the /usr/ tree is on a disk I don't have), but it boots far enough that I'm reasonably certain it's actually got all the RAM the system reports. Thanks, Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 10 19:51:00 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <01KGEHDIKYN6923ZKC@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Roger Ivie wrote: > Actually, there are a grundle of ways to do this. Here's a scheme that > doesn't require a counter, but requires wider microcode: New term alert!!! Could you please, for the uninitiated, quantify "a grundle"? Thanks, Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 10 19:56:35 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020410165405.01696890@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: > >> Anything beyond a size of several bytes would be unmanageable, of course. > >> I figured you might fit 64 bytes in the size of a VHS tape if you use > >> small fuses. > > Maybe more with picofuses, but they'd be hard to change [see below] How about the newer blade-type automotive fuses? You could use large fuse blocks, and they tend to "color up" a lot better than glass fuses when they blow. I can't recall seeing them at amperages <2A, though. Doc From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Apr 10 20:54:08 2002 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: <20020409212750.GC197555@uiuc.edu> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020409212750.GC197555@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20020411015408.GA6053@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:27:50PM -0500, Dan Wright wrote: > I do know, from experience, that any SCSI Plextor CDROM/CD-R/CD-RW will boot > basically anything -- Sparc, SGI, RS/6000, HP,.... I've tried plextors of > varying ages (old 8plex caddy-loader up to a 12/4/32 CD-RW that's about 1 year > old) and they all work great... In this case, I've got bad news or you. You might be out of luck trying this with a VAXstation 3100. My VAXstation 3100 started to boot the VMS 7.1 install CD, but barfed halfway through loading the kernel. I was not happy with either the 4x, the 8x or the 12 SCSI Plextor, nor with the Toshiba drive (all set to 512 byte/sector). Ripping a DEC RRD42 out of one of my DECstations finally did the trick. Seems like this machines are rather ... touchy about what they boot from. Regards, Alex. -- We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom be better served if we killed them instead? -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Apr 10 20:57:18 2002 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB4ED7E.49CA265F@nktelco.net> Doc wrote: > How about the newer blade-type automotive fuses? You could use large > fuse blocks, and they tend to "color up" a lot better than glass fuses > when they blow. > I can't recall seeing them at amperages <2A, though. Why not loops of wirewrap wire? At 30AWG, they don't take much to blow and it would not be too hard to see. Plus 3/4 inch of wire is cheap and replaceable. > Doc -chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 10 22:27:07 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <003601c1e109$c826b620$2bf09a8d@ajp166> I've used a plextor plexwriter, toshiba 2x, some noname ($29.95 new!) scsi successfully. The cdrom,(hobbiest) does however not boot on any of them, though the standalone backup does and that is used to copy the images to a small RZ25 for actual running. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Schreiber To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks >On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:27:50PM -0500, Dan Wright wrote: >> I do know, from experience, that any SCSI Plextor CDROM/CD-R/CD-RW will boot >> basically anything -- Sparc, SGI, RS/6000, HP,.... I've tried plextors of >> varying ages (old 8plex caddy-loader up to a 12/4/32 CD-RW that's about 1 year >> old) and they all work great... > >In this case, I've got bad news or you. You might be out of luck trying >this with a VAXstation 3100. My VAXstation 3100 started to boot the VMS 7.1 >install CD, but barfed halfway through loading the kernel. I was not >happy with either the 4x, the 8x or the 12 SCSI Plextor, nor with the >Toshiba drive (all set to 512 byte/sector). Ripping a DEC RRD42 out of >one of my DECstations finally did the trick. Seems like this machines >are rather ... touchy about what they boot from. > >Regards, > Alex. >-- >We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom >be better served if we killed them instead? > -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 10 22:36:17 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: > > > >> Anything beyond a size of several bytes would be unmanageable, of course. > > >> I figured you might fit 64 bytes in the size of a VHS tape if you use > > >> small fuses. > > > > Maybe more with picofuses, but they'd be hard to change [see below] > > How about the newer blade-type automotive fuses? You could use large > fuse blocks, and they tend to "color up" a lot better than glass fuses > when they blow. > I can't recall seeing them at amperages <2A, though. ATO/ATC blade fuses are available in sizes from 1A (black in color) to 40A. There are also "Mini" blade fuses available, which are about half the size of an ATO/ATC, but IIRC, they only go down to 2A (gray in color). Cost wise, ATO/ATC fuses will run about $25/C, while the "Mini" variety will run about $30/C. Sockets would add more to the cost. It would cost about $0.50/ea to mount ATO/ATC fuses to a pc board, and about $1.25/ea for the "Mini" variety. Another option are the Alarm/Indicating type fuses, but they are even more expensive. Expect to pay about $1/ea for the fuse, and $2/ea for the sockets. I think If I were going to build an electronically programmable demo ROM of some sort, I'd use relays or transistors, each with a status indicating LED. It would be easy to make a relay self-latching by using a set of normally open contacts to keep the relay powered. A SCR could also work well, since it would be self-latching as long as power was applied. -Toth From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 10 14:59:59 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:15 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I lost track of the discussion, since it seemed that there were people > talking about BOTH. > I thought that I had a copy of Berkeley's book, but it turns out that what > I have is his "Giant Brains". That's a great book, but it's not the one with the Simon description (it was his next book). > I will not contest that I am lazy. > or crazy. > But probably NOT silly. I concede I am not only both silly and lazy, but somewhat disturbed (and somewhat disturbing as well). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From red at bears.org Wed Apr 10 23:01:13 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Gould 9540 PSU Message-ID: I've recently inherited a Gould 9540 (8 MHz MC68000 CPU, Multibus) which would appear to run some sort of UNIX variant (System III, if I had to guess) I'd like to check it out, but the system sports a rather large sticker on the back panel which states it was wired at the factory to run on 240V. Before I spend a lot of energy trying to figure out whether it's still true and how to strap it for 120V operation, I thought I'd ask if anybody knows how to tell, off the top of his or her head. ok r. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 10 23:11:21 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: Message-ID: <3CB50CE9.3090606@internet1.net> Yeah, it's hard to be both silly and Grumpy :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I will not contest that I am lazy. > or crazy. > But probably NOT silly. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > From red at bears.org Wed Apr 10 23:39:31 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <3CB50CE9.3090606@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Yeah, it's hard to be both silly and Grumpy :-) You just named my two best qualities... ok r. From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Apr 10 23:18:30 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I have is his "Giant Brains". > > That's a great book, but it's not the one with the Simon description (it > was his next book). "Giant Brains" (1949) is where Berkeley first describes the idea of a simple computer called Simon, but he didn't implement the idea till 1950. See Berkeley's Simon FAQ here: http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/berkeley/simonfaq.html -- Doug From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 10 23:59:22 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Power supplies Message-ID: I am looking for some sort of service manual or something on two Power supplies I picked up yesterday at Purdue Salvage. The first one is a HP 711A 'adjustable AC/DC power supply', which is fairly old and tube-based. After plugging it in, nothing happens - no filaments light up, etc. I haven't had time to go through and 'probe' it to see if the transformer is still OK yet, that's my next step. If anyone has any info on it, please drop me a line. BTW I've checked the fuse. The second one is fairly new - a HC Power Model HC10-1A switching 5V, 200A power supply. I think it was manufactured in 1992, making it 'just classic' as far as electronics go. I've taken it apart, and the line-side smoother caps are charging up, so I'm guessing a control problem. I'm going to try and contact Power-One (they aparently bought out HC Power) tomorrow to try and get info on it. I would really like to get this working so that I could try and use it for my new SSI/MSI (perhaps a few PALs if necessary) minicomputer I'm designing. [Aside: If they'd only give me some sort of course credit towards my BSCompE for doing this, I'd be really happy.] -- Pat From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Apr 11 00:16:31 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 9, 2 10:57:28 pm Message-ID: <3CB4D5DF.9207.1BEFD81@localhost> Well I am lazy and maybe silly at times and started it all by asking Sellam for the blinkenlites url, but the Simon electronic game red herring was dicombobulating. Reminded me of some IBM PS/2 <>Playstation 2 threads on comp.sys.ibm.ps2. Lawrence > > > Sellam, why do you insist on labeling people with terms such as "silly" and > > > "lazy?" > > > > Because I find it silly and lazy that people can't take two seconds to do a > > web search and find the information they're looking for. > > Well, FWIW, I thought 'Simon' refered to the electronic game. And because > I thought I knew what it refered to, I didn't think I needed to do any > web searches for it. > > OK, I was wrong. This does not make me silly or lazy, though.. > > -tony > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Apr 11 00:16:31 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <3CB4A9C4.7095.4CF20859@localhost> References: <3CAEF9D8.31957.244BB@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB4D5DF.21735.1BEFDAE@localhost> Badly put. I do know better. A lot of the later mods for the ST were really interesting too. Geneva, Magic and Terradisk come to mind. There was a lot of development that came out of Germany for the ST. Good stuff Hans. Lawrence > > > Does the GEM TOS have any relationship to the GEM OS that was available > > > for the PC? (Other then name) > > > They had a common origin in GEM 1.2. The ST GEM ran on top of TOS. > > Well, yes and no. first of all, it didn't run ontop of TOS ... > TOS was tha name given by Atari to the whole OS software, > including GEM. > TOS looks like: > > BIOS/XBIOS > GEMDOS (and GEM BIOS) > VDI (and GDOS) > AES > DESKTOP > > The lowest layer is the BIOS, which is quite similar to a PC BIOS. > Youll find most of the PC BIOS functions - realy, it looks amazing > similar. Beside the BIOS there's the XBIOS for extended Functions, > like screen base handling etc. The XBIOS also included functions > for sound handling (interrupt driven play lists etc.) or the basic > keyboard maps. On the falcon the DSP handling was done thru XBIOS > calls. I'm not shure, but IIRC the very basic graphic primitives > (set point, line draw, any kind of bitblit operations) where also > handled by the XBIOS thru a service called Line A function, a > feature provided by the 68K CPU - all opcodes sarting with Ax > where reserved and lead to an exception. The basic idea of in the > ST desin was to make graphic primitives as extened opcodes, so > they could introduce a graphic coprocessor later on to speed up > tha execution - and until then do it by software. > > The BIOS handles all basic setup stuff and the 'boot' process - > usualy scanning disks for boot code to be executed. These boot > files are usualy onl add ons (like hard disk drivers) and return to > the BIOS, which finaly loads GEMDOS from ROM. Of course there could > be a real boot process of a different OS, or a (newer) disk version > of TOS. > > Next in Row is the GEMDOS. If you ever played with the DOS interface > (Int 21h) of PC DOS >2.0, you know exactly what you find. Literaly a > copy of DOS. Even the function numbers are the same. Due the different > processor structur parameter passing was different. You had to push > all parameters on the stack and issue a TRAP instruction (The BIOS > did it the IBM way in registers). Even some internal structures where > _very_ similar to MS-DOS 2.x - inclunding the bufeer handling. > > To be correct, internaly GEMDOS had anoter part called GEM BIOS, > which was supposed to be a hardware independent BIOS ... well, or > something like that. the structures where somewhat mixed, so one > should considere GEMDOS/GEM BIOS as one thing. > > What DRI/Atari did until here was more or less recreating a PC DOS > like environment, so GEM could be running on top. GEM itself was > composed of two parts: the VDI (Virtual Device Interface) and the > AES (Aplication Environment Services). > > The VDI did handle all graphic operations available to GEM programms. > from line drawing to text output. All programm operations where made > on to virtual devices, while the VDI did map them to real coordinates > on real devices. To load new device drivers the GDOS (Graphics Device > Operating System) was supplied. On the ST the GDOS was quite important, > since the ROM only included a driver for the standard ST screen, mouse > and keyboard. To use the device independant luxury of GEM with printers > or whatever, new Drivers had to be made ... now, such a concept was in > 1986 still revolutionary, so a lot of programms still used classic > style printer drivers. It took several years (until ~ 1990) to get most > applications realy use the advantages of the VDI (and GEM). Doesn't that > sound like the storie of Win 3.x :) > > Well, the next (and for GEM topmost) layer is the AES. The AES did all > the usual work of a GUI: Dialog boxes, menue bars, pop up menues, input > fields, drop worn lists, window handling, etc. pp. The AES also offered > services to support a desktop application - linke reading and writing > the shell file (Which would be called WIN.INI under Windows :) > > As the final part, TOS included the DESKTOP.APP application, which > supplied the user visible dektop. > > > CP/M compatibility: > > As for the CP/M issue someone mentioned. I'm not shure if there ever > was a GEM for CP/M. but there was the GSX (Graphic System eXtension). > which incooperates most features of VDI and AES. Even things like > the "application controll block" (Sorry, no idea about the original > name), a structure which held all information about the actual prog, > the used resources etc., basicly the root to build a multi tasking > or at least multi application system (a part of the AES) was already > available in GSX. Also all sata structures used for the VDI where > exactly the same as found in the GSX. GEM is a real sraight foreward > development from GSX (and CP/M 3.0). > > It may be true that the tale of CP/M 68k beening an accessor of TOS > is originated on the fact that the first development tools sold by > Atari where one on one ports of DRI tools for CP/M 68K - and noone > did edit the manuals at all - you you found CP/M 68K mentioned on > every other page. Also, if you where an early developer, you got a > development version of CP/M 68k to run on a ST. > > > The guy who wrote it for DRI (Lee Lorenzen) was one of the Xerox Parc > > people who really developed the GUI as well as mouse usage. Jobs > > glommed his Mac ideas as well as numerous coders from Parc and then > > sued DRI for copying the Mac. He won and DRI was forced to cripple later > > versions and never marketed it very seriously even tho it preceded Windows. > > Interesting. > > > For some reason Apple didn't go after the ST or Ventura Publisher which > > used GEM. Lorenzen was one of the founders of Ventura. > > GEM and the PC: > > On the PC only the AES and VDI parts made up GEM. Apple never sued > DRI about GEM itself. All the wuss was about DESKTOP.APP, the shell. > When DRI lost, only the shell had to be changed, which lead to the > infamous two window design of DESKTOP.APP in GEM 3 and up. Application > programms where not included. And the Publisher didn't use DESKTOP.APP, > but was the application itself. > > DRI did continue to develop GEM afterwards for some time, but with > the 'fixed' DESKTOP.APP, sales where not as good as it could be. > GEM itself did get some inprovements, especialy with additional > drivers and so on for GEM 3 and 4 - and all you had to do is install > the new version and then copy back your old DESKTOP.APP :) > > In fact GEM was a real good example of hardware independant > programming. At this time I used a SIEMENS PC-D as main computer. > A 80186 machine with NO IBM hardware compatibility at all. GEM 1.2 > was the only Version ever ported to this computer, but is was no > problem at all to install GEM 2 and GEM 3 on the machine from > standard PC distributions. All I had to do was to put the SIEMENS > specific drivers back into the right directories and add their name > to the driver lists. I liked it a real lot. > > Anyway History > H. > > > > > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 11 00:42:56 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Native CP/M References: Message-ID: <002701c1e11b$bb30f900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Native CP/M > > > > It can be argued that if it uses code not executable on an 8080, it's not > > really CP/M-80 software. If it runs the 8080 that's supposed to be in an > > And so by analogy any software that runs on a 286 or above is not 'PC > software', right... > Certainly not ... it's AT software. > > Now admittedly I've moaned that 'for IBM compatibles' should mean it'll > run on an 8088 with 640K of RAM and either an MDA or CGA card, but these > days that's unlikely to be the case :-( > What? You mean it won't run on a 7090? > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 11 00:53:42 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002d01c1e11d$3ca60920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> We should be careful here, lest we be accused of inferring that if a computer has a nand gate, then a nand gate is a computer. A computer is likely to have several state machines. Defining the computer as being a state machine is like saying a '747 is a light bulb. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:50 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > > Perhaps you can give me a defintion of state machine which excludes a > > > (microcoded) processor. I will accept that not all state machines are > > > microcoded processors, but I'll have difficulty accepting any form of > > > processor that's not a stete machine. > > > > Here we have a fine example of what happens when computer-science meets > > electro-engineering... > > Mathematically there is no difference between a state-machine and > > microcode. Both are just different methods to describe a finite state machine. > > And electronically there's little, if any, difference. > Actually, there's a mathematical difference between them, since the microcode is just to ROM or fuse array content, while the state machine is the combination of that with the combo-logic and registers that comprise the state machine. > > > > > On a high level design view it's called state-machine if you draw a graph > > and "microcoded" if you write a program. > > Yes, that's what I'd come to accept as well. So basically, if I look at a > PCB or a schematic I can't tell if it's microcoded or 'just a state > machine'. I have to know how it was designed. Brilliant! > If it's microcoded, there's a complete execution unit the purpose of which is to execute content of the microcode ROMs. If it's a hand-wired set of transitors and diodes, or whatever, functioning as a state machine, it's not microcoded, since there's no distinct microcode. Now if you want to redefine the logic design as being microcode, that's up to you, but it reduces the number of folks who'll understand what you mean, not that there won't be quite a few who're confused no matter what your nomenclature is. I did say it was a semantic quagmire ... > > > > > On hardware-level you use a ROM for outputs and some logic to > > compute the next state for a microcoded design. In a state-machine-design > > both the outputs and the next state are computed by a single logic block. > > > > State Machine: > > > > ---->|------|---> > > IN ---->|State |---> OUT > > ---->|Mach. |---> > > | | > > |-->|______|--| next state > > | | > > --[StateReg]<-| > > > > Microcoded Machine: > > > > ---->|---|---> > > IN ---->| R |---> > > ---->| O |---> |--[Counter] > > | M |----| | > > |-->|___| \MUX/<--- IN > > | | > > |-[StateReg]<-- > > > > The MUX selects if next state is the next ROM-Address (counter) or > > an Address supplied in the ROM. > > 2 points.... > > First;y, the second system is also just a state machine. Let's use a > synchronous counter, which itself is a state machine (look at the > schematics sometine). Then move the 'counter' ff's into the 'state > register' (i.e. make it a bit longer) and combine the mux and the counter > feedback logc into the 'ROM' (more strictly, an arbitrary combinatorial > logic circuit). It's now of the same form as the first system. > > Secondly, and more importantly, many microcoded processors (for example > the PPD11/45) do NOT have a counter used in that way. Rather, every word > in the microcode contains a field that gives the address of the next word > to execute. This field is fed through some combinatorial logic (to allow > for conditional branches, 'forks', etc) and then fed back to the address > lines of the ROM. Which means the circuit is exactly that of your first > example -- the state machine. > > > > > The first design is smaller and faster and the second can be changed more > > easily... > > Why? As far as I can see either can be changed easily. > > -tony > > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 11 00:57:14 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... Message-ID: ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 11 00:57:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <004301c1e11d$b96b4240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Why not just use switches to ground with resistor pullups? Then you can see as well as measure what the effect of opening a fuse would be, without actually blowing a fuse. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:34 PM Subject: Re: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing > > If I can get those to smoke the glass dramatically enough when they blow, > > it would be easy to replace the blown parts with fresh fuses for a new > > program. Not to mention that it may be fun to be able to re-arrange the > > fuses ;) > > How about using circuit breakers? > Then you would have a manually erasable PROM, without further expenditure > each time that you program it. > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 01:25:17 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? > > Peace... Sridhar If the CD-ROm is the first SCSI CD drive, dd if=/dev/scd0 of=image.iso If the disk is a non-ISO filesystem, like an AIX install or Mac CD, then: dd if=/dev/scd0 of=image.iso bs=1 works on anything. Including the OpenVMS Hobbyist CDs. Doc This information is not meant to be, and should never be, used for purposes of software piracy yadda yadda yadda yadda...... From jon at slurpee.org Thu Apr 11 01:15:56 2002 From: jon at slurpee.org (Jon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: mkisofs? :) On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? > > Peace... Sridhar > > From Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org Thu Apr 11 02:30:43 2002 From: Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:50:56PM +0100 References: <20020410092925.A35404@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Message-ID: <20020411093043.A49684@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:50:56PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, that's what I'd come to accept as well. So basically, if I look at a > PCB or a schematic I can't tell if it's microcoded or 'just a state > machine'. I have to know how it was designed. Brilliant! No, as you pointed out below it is possible to implement a microcoded design as a state-machine. You have to seperate the design and the actual hardware implementation. A microcoded machine is always a state machine but not every state machine is a microcoded machine. see below... > 2 points.... > > First;y, the second system is also just a state machine. Let's use a > synchronous counter, which itself is a state machine (look at the > schematics sometine). Then move the 'counter' ff's into the 'state > register' (i.e. make it a bit longer) and combine the mux and the counter > feedback logc into the 'ROM' (more strictly, an arbitrary combinatorial > logic circuit). It's now of the same form as the first system. No, now you don't have a seperate ROM (or PROM or any other kind of linear addressable memory) any more. The main reason to use a microcoded machine instead of a "pure" state machine is that you can change it quite easily by putting another "program" in the ROM. If you put all the functionality into a single block and probably minimize it you wouldn't be able to change it without messing with the hardware (your beloved soldering iron ;-)). If you want to tell me now that a ROM cannot be changed: That's right, but it's only a ROM for the microcoded machine. In reality it's most likely an EEPROM, a FlashROM or a SRAM. > > > > The first design is smaller and faster and the second can be changed more > > easily... > > Why? As far as I can see either can be changed easily. If you implemented the thing in discrete logic it's probably possible to change it by soldering wires all over the board, but if you made an ASIC you would have to change the masks and physically replace all chips made... Of course if you use a FPGA it really makes no difference... bye Thilo From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 11 02:36:32 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Power supplies References: Message-ID: <3CB53D00.1CCFE8B8@ccp.com> I've had good luck just by contacting Hewlett-Packard directly, even for some of the really old tube test gear. They are extremely helpful, and the manuals are not priced out of sight either. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > I am looking for some sort of service manual or something on two Power > supplies I picked up yesterday at Purdue Salvage. The first one is a HP > 711A 'adjustable AC/DC power supply', which is fairly old and tube-based. > After plugging it in, nothing happens - no filaments light up, etc. I > haven't had time to go through and 'probe' it to see if the transformer > is still OK yet, that's my next step. If anyone has any info on it, please > drop me a line. BTW I've checked the fuse. > > The second one is fairly new - a HC Power Model HC10-1A switching 5V, > 200A power supply. I think it was manufactured in 1992, making it 'just > classic' as far as electronics go. I've taken it apart, and the line-side > smoother caps are charging up, so I'm guessing a control problem. I'm > going to try and contact Power-One (they aparently bought out HC Power) > tomorrow to try and get info on it. I would really like to get this > working so that I could try and use it for my new SSI/MSI (perhaps a few > PALs if necessary) minicomputer I'm designing. [Aside: If they'd only > give me some sort of course credit towards my BSCompE for doing this, I'd > be really happy.] > > -- Pat From asholz at topinform.com Thu Apr 11 02:39:59 2002 From: asholz at topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: HP9845B: Schematics and Infomation how to repair Message-ID: <3CB53DCF.7040609@topinform.com> Dear ClassicComper's. I've a HP9845b, which run for a long time, but now it's dead. I think, it's caused by the powersupply, because there are no voltages to be measured at its testpoints. Does someony has experiences in reparing this powersupply, or much better some schematics. Greetings from Germany Andreas From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 11 02:47:46 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga haul in Topeka Message-ID: <3CB53FA2.154A9857@ccp.com> I made contact with an employee of Kansas Computer Recycling Corp. in Topeka. The conversation drifted to my favorite subject, and he said they had a bunch of cards for Amigas, including what he thought was a toaster . . . . Well they did have them. I went home with 15 Toaster cards, 5 Flyer cards, 18 Ethernet cards (extremely rare and pricey), 4 68040 accerator cards, and a plethora of other goodies. I will have extras of the above for sale, once I chip through them and see what's working and not. This has to be the <<<>>>> Amiga find in all the years I've played with them. Also at KCRC in Topeka, I saw a Sun SPARQ in the scrap pile out back, so they occasionally get the higher grade stuff. Check out www.kansascrc.com or e-mail kansascrc@go.com. Gerald & Lynne Hartman are the owners, and they dismantle mostly later PC stuff and pitch the old/odd stuff out the back door. Gary Hildebrand ST. JOseph, MO From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 11 03:19:48 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards Message-ID: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface (DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test these out through a hub. Any comments? Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 11 03:54:53 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards In-Reply-To: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> Message-ID: >Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface >(DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an >adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test >these out through a hub. > >Any comments? > >Gary Hildebrand >St. Joseph, MO You're talking about a Ethernet Transceiver I believe. Is the connector the size of a DB9 or DB25 (just different sized pins)? If so this should be what you need. They come in both 10BaseT and 10Base2 flavors. Sounds like you got a nice haul! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Thu Apr 11 04:01:27 2002 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards In-Reply-To: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> References: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> Message-ID: <62191.62.148.198.97.1018515687.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> Gary Hildebrand said: > Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface > (DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an > adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test > these out through a hub. > > Any comments? > Also known as transceivers, the best thing since sugar coated cheerios. I mainly use CentreCOM (Allied Telesis ?). They work just fine. Nice haul btw :) -- jht From kris at catonic.net Thu Apr 11 05:12:17 2002 From: kris at catonic.net (Kris Kirby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: <006701c1d9d9$2d797630$7ded9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: > Boot to non-timesharing then use ED (sorry no other choice usually) > to edit passwd file. set the Root user password to NULL (no characters). > boot to timeshare level and then log in as root with no password. For those of us "young'uns", would someone point me to a guide on "ED"? -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." From md10 at wanadoo.fr Thu Apr 11 05:13:48 2002 From: md10 at wanadoo.fr (md10@wanadoo.fr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: cartridges Message-ID: <200204111013.g3BADmR46905@ns1.ezwind.net> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 07:14:30 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions Message-ID: Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the 2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the kbd/mouse from the Colt work? Aquiring minds want to know. :) Doc From rmoyers at nop.org Thu Apr 11 07:16:34 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204111216.g3BCGa404654@Fubar.nop.org> On Thursday 11 April 2002 01:25, you wrote: > If the CD-ROm is the first SCSI CD drive, > dd if=/dev/scd0 of=image.iso > > If the disk is a non-ISO filesystem, like an AIX install or Mac CD, > then: > > dd if=/dev/scd0 of=image.iso bs=1 FYI dd is an EBCDIC <> ASCII conversion program often used in this role because it can count blocks and reblock mainframe data as well as do charset conversion. in this case you are doing neither, so therefore, cat /dev/fd0h1440 > floppy.img cat /dev/hdc > cdrom.iso cat /dev/scd0 > cdrom.iso in unix, just about any device can be used as a streamer. So is dd "wrong" ? No ! ,, but it is important to convey hints to how the system works, its just the spark a person needs to discover the powerfull world of unix tool plumbing. Cheers !! Raymond --------------------------------------------------------- "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." -- Thomas Jefferson --------------------------------------------------------- "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" -- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 --------------------------------------------------------- "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" -- George Washington --------------------------------------------------------- "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188 --------------------------------------------------------- "One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms." -- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840 --------------------------------------------------------- "As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks." -- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew. --------------------------------------------------------- "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy --------------------------------------------------------- The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." -- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court --------------------------------------------------------- False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book --------------------------------------------------------- No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. -- "Political Disquisitions", a British republican tract of 1774-1775 --------------------------------------------------------- & what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787 --------------------------------------------------------- "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -- Patrick Henry, June 5 1788 --------------------------------------------------------- Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands? -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788 --------------------------------------------------------- "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, June 14, 1788 --------------------------------------------------------- "The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every one who is able may have a gun." -- Patrick Henry, June 14 1788 --------------------------------------------------------- That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms... -- Samuel Adams, in "Phila. Independent Gazetteer", August 20, 1789 --------------------------------------------------------- Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible. -- Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960 --------------------------------------------------------- The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner. -- Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session (February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5 --------------------------------------------------------- Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power. -- Yoshimi Ishikawa --------------------------------------------------------- The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of. -- Albert Gallatin, Oct 7 1789 --------------------------------------------------------- The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859 --------------------------------------------------------- clintonsoft.c:666: warning: `morality_and_integrity' defined but not used -------------------------------------------------------- Raymond Moyers N5LAX email: rmoyers@nop.org -------------------------------------------------------- From OwnedByDogs at clearsource.net Thu Apr 11 07:25:18 2002 From: OwnedByDogs at clearsource.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: VAX 11/750 Power In-Reply-To: <1018472445.2169.9.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: Ah, a VAX 11/750. That's the very VAX I got my first tast of VMS on. That brings back memories. Well, actually that was my only tast of VMS until recently when I got OpenVMS installed on the Charon emulator. Hopefully some day I'll find some VAX hardware to run VMS on. I doubt I'll ever have my own piece of Big Iron. Congratulations!!! Kevin On 10 Apr 2002, Alex White wrote: > Hello all, I would be extremely grateful if those of you with VAX > 11/750s out there could either take pictures or draw diagrams of how the > PSU blocks are connected in this wonderful system. > > I have (finally) received my first piece of Big Iron but it has death of > the 2.5v PSU, and all the PSU bricks were removed and handed to me > before I could note their positions. > > Also, if any of you have a terminal going spare (vt or hardcopy, either > ist gut) then shout out and we can talk... > > > Manifest > -------- > > VAX 11/750 > RA60 with two media > RA80 > Original DEC cardboard software box full of dusty DECTapes including all > VMS install tapes. > CPU Printset > ~1 Metric Ton of dust and decayed foam > > Thanks > Alex > From at258 at osfn.org Thu Apr 11 08:19:56 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You need an Amiga keyboard, or an adapter box for the keyboard. The mouse should be the same as used on the C128, c64? On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, > a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and > no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display > from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the > 2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so > far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the > kbd/mouse from the Colt work? > > Aquiring minds want to know. :) > > Doc > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Apr 11 08:33:51 2002 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1018532031.12263.14.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 07:14, Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, > a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and > no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display > from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the > 2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so > far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the > kbd/mouse from the Colt work? > I spent $25 for my A2500 (no keyboard, mouse, or monitor), so I think its a reasonable price. You can chuck any SCSI drive into it so that's not a problem. I found someone on the net who sold me an amiga keyboard for $30, but $65 seems to be the going price. I have no idea on mice, I happened to have one. Brian > Aquiring minds want to know. :) > > Doc From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 11 08:40:34 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02Apr11.100245edt.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, >a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and >no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display >from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the >2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so >far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the >kbd/mouse from the Colt work? The 2500 is basically the 2000 shipped with either an '020 or '030 CPU vice the original 68000. Otherwise there's little difference. The Colt was Commodore's XT-clone so no, the keyboard/mouse from the Colt will not work with the 2500. Keyboards and mice aren't all that hard to locate, at least on the 'net, but they tend to be a little pricey compared to what you probably think they should go for. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 09:05:32 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DA@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > Maybe I missed something important, but rather than installing blown > fuses, couldn't you just.. have an empty socket? Indeed -- or you could just have some switches, but in order to actually "program" the thing with a separate device, fuses are the (probably) easiest way, and the most true to life. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 11 09:07:23 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions References: Message-ID: <3CB5989B.DAD5F26C@ccp.com> I'm glad you asked, as I just picked up bits and pieces to one yesterday in Topeka. Here goes: $30 isn't bad, but the keyboard is the tough item to get; they go for $50 when available. The keyboard for an A3000 will also work. The telltale on Amiga keyboards is that they only have 10 function keys, and the cursor keys sit all by themselves . You can get an in-line keyboard adapter for about the same, and use a PC keyboard in place of it (another few bucks). Mice are also different, but you can get new ones from Software Hut or merlancia for about $15 give or take. The bad thinkg about them is that they are made with crappy switches that don't last very long, about a year under normal use. You have Kickstart 1.3 (DOS version), and that has been pretty much superceeded by 3.1. To upgrade to that you have to replace the ROM chip and get the latest software either on disk, or CD (around 50). That has CD-ROM support and most internet software needs 3.1. The floppy drive is a standard DSDD, and you can use HD disks, but they'll only format to 880k. The SCSI interface is SCSI-2 compliant. The monitor is using the composite video output, which is only black & white output (no color). The Amiga will drive either analog or digital (CGA) monitors, but the analog is preferred for best results. As CGA is limited to 16 colors, you can't see the whole pallete that is possible. The specific Commodore monitor used with it are the 1080 and 1084 series. Phillips/Magnavox made some as well of vaarious styles. If you have a multisync monitor you can also use that, but it has to be able to sync down to 15 kHz (NTSC) scan rates. I have a Sony CDP1302 for that exact purpose. FYI, the A2500 is nothing more than a stock A2000 with a 68030 @ 25 mHz accelerator card (A2630). This should be the card right in the middle of the machine. Over on the side are the amiga/PC slots. The PC slots don't work without a bridgeboard, which is nothing but a PC-XT or AT on a card that shares a memory window for graphic display and I/O ports. You should also have an A2091 SCSI controller card with the HD attached. The common sizes were the older Quantum ProDrive series, in 52, 105, or 240 mB sizes. The 5 mB you mention is probably incorrect. I'd reccomend a minimum of 105 mB, 240 is good for most uses. Keep in mind software packages are small compared to Microslop code bloat. Large programs might run a meg or more. Software is available off of Aminet.org. You can get just about anything from soup to nuts for it, as either freeware or shareware at a nominal fee. If you decide not to get it going, I'm sure any of us would like a shot at it. I'm up to four of them right now, 9 Amigas total. If you have any other questions, plese reply off-list with questions and I'll get you going in the right direction. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO Doc Shipley wrote: > > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, > a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and > no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display > from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the > 2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so > far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the > kbd/mouse from the Colt work? > > Aquiring minds want to know. :) > > Doc From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 11 09:09:12 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions References: Message-ID: <3CB59908.7C56CDBA@ccp.com> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > You need an Amiga keyboard, or an adapter box for the keyboard. The > mouse should be the same as used on the C128, c64? Sorry, they look similar, but the 8 bit Commodores used a 1350 mouse, and the Amiga is a 1351. AFAIK, they are NOT interchangeable. Gary Hildebrand > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, > > a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and > > no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display > > from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the > > 2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. > > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so > > far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the > > kbd/mouse from the Colt work? > > > > Aquiring minds want to know. :) > > > > Doc > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 09:13:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > > Erasable would not be feasable, other than manual recreation. > Why not use reed relay switches with a hidden magnets behind them, > slighty smoked to look like fuses. I thought about using relays -- wouldn't that make it a RAM, or do these relays stick somehow when there's no power? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 09:15:01 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > How about using circuit breakers? > Then you would have a manually erasable PROM, without further > expenditure > each time that you program it. Ok, that's something I hadn't thought of. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 09:18:39 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Dickman [mailto:chd_1@nktelco.net] > Why not loops of wirewrap wire? At 30AWG, they don't take much to blow > and it would not be too hard to see. Plus 3/4 inch of wire is > cheap and > replaceable. It would be a lot more trouble to get the wire in and out. :) Otherwise it's an interesting idea. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Apr 11 09:19:48 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: HP9845B: Schematics and Infomation how to repair References: <3CB53DCF.7040609@topinform.com> Message-ID: <3CB59B84.6EBFC3ED@gifford.co.uk> Andreas Holz wrote: > I've a HP9845b, which run for a long time, but now it's dead. Well, I have the lower half of an HP9845 out in the garage. And the lower half of an HP9835, too. Both units are missing the video screen, which seems to clip on. > Does someony has experiences in reparing this powersupply, or much > better some schematics. No manuals for either machine, though. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 09:23:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? Um -- dd? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Apr 11 09:32:38 2002 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Simon Plans Re: Simon Relay Computer Re: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <3CB34036.DD54E8FA@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020411103128.0326cd48@mail.njd.concentric.com> Turns out I was one of the list members who received the Simon plans on CD -- I found it this morning. -- Tony At 12:25 PM 4/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I distinctly remember scanning and burning the CD-ROMs for several >listmembers. Since I rarely will dispose of such stuff, there is >probably a copy of the CD-ROM around here someplace ...but where :). I >also got a copy of the Mark-8 and IIRC TV Typewriter on CD from Jim, but >this is something different. You and I are the only two people *I* know >of who have the original plans on the list. > >Doug Salot wrote: > > > > The scans and CD-ROM don't ring a bell for me (and I didn't see any > > reference in the archives). Are you sure you're not thinking of the > > Mark-8 scans and CD-ROM Jim Willing produced a while back? > > > > -- Doug > > > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > > > > I have the original plans for Simon. They were scanned a few years ago > > > and made available to listmembers on CD-ROM, but I don't know where the > > > scans are at this point. Doug also has the plans and I *thought* he had > > > made them available on the web. Someone had gotten copies of the plans > > > from IIRC the Babbage Institute, but they were prohibited from > > > distributing them. Check the ClassicCmp Archives for more information. > > > > > > Tony Eros wrote: > > > > > > > > Are there any Simon construction plans floating around? > > > > > > > > -- Tony > > > > > > > > At 01:01 PM 4/9/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking about the 1950s Simon "electronic brain"? > > > > > > > > > > > > Some people are silly and lazy. If they would do the research, > they would > > > > > > find that the Simon was a construction project. So it's not > like you're > > > > > > going to find a mass produced, commercially sold > variant. You're only > > > > > > likely, if you're incredibly lucky, to find some hobbyists rats > nest of > > > > > > wires and relays. > > > > > > > > > >Like this one? > > > > > http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/index.html > > > > > > > > > >-- Doug > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 11 09:36:45 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <3CB59908.7C56CDBA@ccp.com> from "Gary Hildebrand" at Apr 11, 02 09:09:12 am Message-ID: <200204111436.KAA18848@wordstock.com> > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, > > > a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and > > > no keyboard, mouse, or display. He wants $30 for it. He has a display > > > from a Commodore Colt hooked up to the composite video port, and the > > > 2500 will boot to a screen with hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. > > > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? That's the showstopper so > > > far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested A2500? Will the > > > kbd/mouse from the Colt work? > > > > > > Aquiring minds want to know. :) > > > > > > Doc > > > Check out http://www.softhut.com . They have Amiga 2000 keyboard adapters for $39.95. Cheers, Bryan From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 09:40:07 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards In-Reply-To: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> Message-ID: <20020411144007.534.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface > (DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an > adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test > these out through a hub. Yes. An ordinary 10BaseT transceiver. Nothing magical (thankfully). > Any comments? I have a couple. If you haven't used one before, you'll need a TCP/IP stack and a semi-modern version of AmigaOS (2.0x or higher, IIRC). Don't forget to check the state of the jumpers up by the BNC - it's how you select AUI vs Thinnet. The two flavors of drivers are "SANA-2" (Standard Amiga Networking Architecture v2) and "MNI" (Miami? Network? I??) - a more efficient (but proprietary to Holger Kruse's Miami stack) driver standard (less buffer copying, among other things). There are SANA-2 and MNI drivers for the A2065 and for my GG2 Bus+, among other network cards. The A2065 is unremarkable, but it _is_ the gold standard for Amiga networking cards. As you already know, they aren't cheap. I did a brisk business selling a $135 ISA adapater to which you added a $25 (at the time) ISA NIC, in large part because I _had_ stock (still do ;-). You couldn't get a used A2065 for under $200 a few years ago, let alone new. So few were made that several new designs came out years after Commodore went away - there was that much demand. These days, there are several possibilities for network cards that we just didn't have back then. OTOH, the A2065 card is _the_ card to have to run AMIX (*BSD supports it _and_ the GG2 Bus+) If you have never used an Ethernet card with an Amiga, it's a great experience. It add lots of life to the old girl. There's AWeb and AMosaic for browsers (don't know what the current offerings are), NFS clients (NFS server packages are rare and typically not freeware), FTP servers and clients, telnet, Samba, all the usual stuff you'd expect. Networking software is an add-on for most versions of AmigaOS. Packages include Miami, AmiTCP and AS225. There's also Envoy, a Commodore-produced AmigaOS peer-to-peer stack for printer and disk sharing. I have several original copies left from when I used to bundle them with GG2 Bus+ boards, if anyone is interested. It's only useful if you have multiple Amigas on the network, being a proprietary stack, but it's efficient for native-mode sharing. Good find. It's the most compatible, best supported network card for the Amiga. You can't go wrong. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 11 09:41:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <001e01c1e166$ed73fd40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, if you take a blown fuse apart, i.e. remove the metal caps from the ends, you'll see that there's a hole through which the fuse wire is passed before soldering it in place. You could do the same thing. I'd recommend some finer wire than #30, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:18 AM Subject: RE: TTL computing > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chuck Dickman [mailto:chd_1@nktelco.net] > > > Why not loops of wirewrap wire? At 30AWG, they don't take much to blow > > and it would not be too hard to see. Plus 3/4 inch of wire is > > cheap and > > replaceable. > > It would be a lot more trouble to get the wire in and out. :) Otherwise > it's an interesting idea. > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 09:52:44 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020411145244.99083.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > Hi. I'm looking at an Amiga 2500, with a 5M hard drive, unknown ram, > a lot of boards in it (the owner knows as little about it as I do), and > no keyboard, mouse, or display. Sounds like an early one, but pretty standard. > He wants $30 for it. He has a display from a Commodore Colt hooked up > to the composite video port, and the 2500 will boot to a screen with > hand holding a WorkBench 1.3 floppy shown. Hmm... needs a boot floppy, then. The disk controller might be an ancient A2090 (not A2090A w/autoboot) - 5MB sounds like an MFM drive; I don't think there were any embedded SCSI drives under 20MB. It might have a bridge card - an A2088, most likely, perhaps an A2286. If you can look inside, see if the hard disk is attached to a Zorro card or an ISA card. One dead-giveaway is a 5.25" floppy in the front. That usually means "bridge card". > Are keyboards as hard to find as it seems? Yes. > That's the showstopper so far. Is $30 reasonable for a partially tested > A2500? If you have piles of Amiga parts, not really. Maybe a bit high. It depends if he'll come down in price or just trash it if it's too cheap. I haven't bought an Amiga in a few years (got plenty) so I don't know what the going rate is these days. Certainly not *over* $30 unless it has some special cards (8MB Zorro RAM, A2091, A2065 ethernet...) > Will the kbd/mouse from the Colt work? The keyboard, absolutely not. It's a standard IBM-XT keyboard. I'm not sure what model mouse the Colt takes. The Amiga needs a raw quadrature input mouse with two buttons (at least). It is electrically compatible with the Microsoft Bus Mouse (different connector), not a serial or PS/2 mouse. There is no microprocessor in an Amiga mouse, just some optical hardware (interrupter wheel and some IR LEDs/phototransistors). Commodore made several flavors of mice - Amiga mice, C-64 mice (with the "Mickey" chip to let you hang a mouse off of a joystick port) and I'm pretty sure they made serial mice for later PeeCees. I'm just not sure what the Colt takes (and I _have_ a Colt - my 8-bit-ISA interface to my UP600A device programmer is in it, along with an NE1000 to feed data to it). If nobody else has a good answer on the mouse, I can probably evenually dig up the docs on it. The keyboard is going to be a problem, though. There are designs on Aminet for building a keyboard protocol converter for an AT keyboard. I have a commercial one I think cost me $30 (maybe $50). The monitor is another problem - Amigas use 15KHz natively. You can use a composite monitor on the mono port, or a NEC Multisync 3D with a 23pin-15-pin adapter if you can't find a 2002 or 1084, etc. An ordinary PeeCee multisync monitor won't go below 31KHz. More modern Amiga chips and OSes will give you VGA-friendly modes, but that only works once the OS is up. It's a pain to diagnose boot problems. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 11 09:54:18 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020411145418.GA327303@uiuc.edu> Doc said: > > If the disk is a non-ISO filesystem, like an AIX install or Mac CD, > then: > > dd if=/dev/scd0 of=image.iso bs=1 I've had equally good luck with bs=512...though I haven't tried to copy OpenVMS CDs. > > works on anything. Including the OpenVMS Hobbyist CDs. > > Doc > > This information is not meant to be, and should never be, used for > purposes of software piracy yadda yadda yadda yadda...... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 09:54:32 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020411145432.16683.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > > > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? > > Um -- dd? dd is great for moving around raw HD partitions (providing the source and dest are the same size), but I think you are looking for something like mkisofs. I've used it under Solaris. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 09:58:25 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <3CB5989B.DAD5F26C@ccp.com> Message-ID: <20020411145825.52710.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Hildebrand wrote: > The PC slots don't work without a bridgeboard Yes. > which is nothing but a PC-XT or AT on a card that shares a memory > window for graphic display and I/O ports. That's one version... don't forget the GG2 Bus+ - it maps the ISA bus into Amiga memory space. No CPU - just some bus buffers and a few GALs for AUTOCONFIG, etc. I have drivers for serial, printer, ethernet and IDE disk. Still have 'em new, with warranty. (shameless plug ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 11 09:59:04 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: HP 88780 / 7980XC Interface Question Message-ID: <000e01c1e169$6c831470$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> I see lots of references to these drives... Do they possess multiple interfaces, or do you get one that has the interface you need? I've seen one with an HP-GPIB interface connector on the back, and was wondering if I pull that rear cover off, will I find a set of Pertect interface connectors hiding there? Or is that simply a different model? Thanks, -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 10:01:18 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020411150118.53666.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? > > > > Peace... Sridhar Sorry... I was thinking how to make image files from files in a filesystem, not how to make image files from a real CD-ROM. dd is what you want, but the parameters may vary if the disc is not a boring ISO-9660 type. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 11 10:03:46 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A References: Message-ID: <00a101c1e16a$14c93c40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Just in the interest of getting a good sence of the problem and it's solution, what is the minimum number of gates necessary to implement a stored program computer? I guess the instruction set would be something like (IF(x=0),JMP,ADD,SUB,MOV) Was Simon attempting to be this? John A. with a few relays kicking around. From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 11 10:06:50 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:16 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! Message-ID: <200204111506.LAA20811@wordstock.com> To all who may be interested, The "CommodoreOne" is nearing completion. Check out http://www.commodoreone.com for a picture of the partially assembled motherboard! :) (Click on news) If that site is down, go to http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/ and click on "CommodoreOne Details" for a bigger picture with important features pointed out. Cheers, Bryan From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 11 10:17:16 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 10, 2002 10:42:38 pm" Message-ID: <200204111517.g3BFHHJ2012929@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > > > > > --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > > >...(I just love RA disks and only need a 7x and a 60 to have the > > > complete series 60, 81, 82, 90, 92, 7x.) > > > > Didn't the R-80 (RB80) also come in an SDI version? I know there's > > an "RM80" Massbus version. I don't recall for certain if there was > > an RA80 or not. > > I'm pretty sure the RA80 does exist. There's the R80 (custom SMD-like > interface to the 11/730 internal disk controller board), the RM80 (an R80 > with a rack of electronics to make it a Massbus unit), and the RA80 (SDI > version, with different logic boards inside the drive chassis itself). > > -tony Never saw an RA80 in the field... I'm not sure they ever shipped. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Apr 11 10:19:13 2002 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <01KGFKH51OPE90SJAQ@cc.usu.edu> Doc said: > On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Roger Ivie wrote: > > > Actually, there are a grundle of ways to do this. Here's a scheme that > > doesn't require a counter, but requires wider microcode: > > New term alert!!! > > Could you please, for the uninitiated, quantify "a grundle"? 'Bout half an ANSI sh*tload which, of course, is smaller than the Imperial sh*tload. It was, obviously, an ANSI sh*tload to which Slim Pickins was referring in Blazing Saddles when he said "someone's gonna have to get a sh*tload of dimes". Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From chd_1 at nktelco.net Thu Apr 11 11:23:31 2002 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (chd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <0411102112331.0.0997050815@mailserver.nktelco.net> Christopher Smith wrote: >--------------------------------------------------- >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chuck Dickman > >> Why not loops of wirewrap wire? At 30AWG, they don't take much to blow >> and it would not be too hard to see. Plus 3/4 inch of wire is >> cheap and >> replaceable. > >It would be a lot more trouble to get the wire in and out. :) Otherwise >it's an interesting idea. I was thinking more along the lines of no fuse housing at all. Just wire between some form of binding pin. >Chris -chuck From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 11 10:23:00 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone know... Message-ID: <000701c1e16c$c52728c0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > > > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? > > Um -- dd? No; assuming you've got files on a Linux filesystem, you use mkisofs to create the ISO9660 image file (with Rockbridge extensions). Then you use cdrecord to burn the image onto the CD. To capture an existing CD-ROM into an image file, most likely, Chris is correct, but I haven't gone that direction yet. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 11 10:26:15 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <20020410092925.A35404@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> <20020411093043.A49684@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Message-ID: <3CB5AB17.D8A7A9DD@jetnet.ab.ca> Thilo Schmidt wrote: > > Why? As far as I can see either can be changed easily. > If you implemented the thing in discrete logic it's probably > possible to change it by soldering wires all over the board, > but if you made an ASIC you would have to change the masks and > physically replace all chips made... > > Of course if you use a FPGA it really makes no difference... Nope you have 3 levels of routing there. 1) Vaporware for the ram based stuff. 2) Firmware for the EEPROM types 3) Hardware for the anti-fuse based types. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 11 10:30:04 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <20020411145244.99083.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020411145244.99083.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02Apr11.115210edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >More modern Amiga chips and OSes will give you VGA-friendly modes, but >that only works once the OS is up. It's a pain to diagnose boot >problems. Unless you are lucky enough to have an A3000 with it's built-in scandoubler! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 11 10:29:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone know... References: <200204111216.g3BCGa404654@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CB5ABF5.A7221352@jetnet.ab.ca> Raymond Moyers wrote: > --------------------------------------------------------- > "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our > will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of > others." -- Thomas Jefferson > --------------------------------------------------------- > "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The > strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep > and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves > against tyranny in government" > -- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 > --------------------------------------------------------- > "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere > restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor > with all that's good" -- George Washington > --------------------------------------------------------- > "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is > that they be properly armed." > -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188 > --------------------------------------------------------- > "One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish > their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the > people, and making it an offense to keep arms." > -- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840 > --------------------------------------------------------- > "As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this > gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, > enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with > the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the > body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, > therefore, be the constant companion to your walks." > -- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew. > --------------------------------------------------------- > "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not > only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the > preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily > life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice > for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy > --------------------------------------------------------- > The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly > been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; > since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and > arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these > are successful in the first instance, enable the people to > resist and triumph over them." > -- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court > --------------------------------------------------------- > False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real > advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that > would take fire from men because it burns, and water because > one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except > destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are > laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither > inclined nor determined to commit crimes. > -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book > --------------------------------------------------------- > No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. > The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman > and a slave. > -- "Political Disquisitions", a British republican tract > of 1774-1775 > --------------------------------------------------------- > & what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are > not warned from time to time that his people preserve the > spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. > -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787 > --------------------------------------------------------- > "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect > every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing > will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give > up that force, you are inevitably ruined." > -- Patrick Henry, June 5 1788 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing > degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our > own defence? Where is the difference between having our > arms in our own possession and under our own direction, > and having them under the management of Congress? If our > defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose > hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal > safety to us, as in our own hands? > -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788 > --------------------------------------------------------- > "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual > way to enslave them." -- George Mason, June 14, 1788 > --------------------------------------------------------- > "The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every > one who is able may have a gun." -- Patrick Henry, June 14 1788 > --------------------------------------------------------- > That the said Constitution shall never be construed to > authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the > press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people > of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping > their own arms... -- Samuel Adams, in "Phila. Independent > Gazetteer", August 20, 1789 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any > government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right > of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of > the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against > arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a > tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which > historically has proved to be always possible. > -- Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960 > --------------------------------------------------------- > The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, > and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of > the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major > commentator and court in the first half-century after its > ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual > right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful > manner. > -- Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On > The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session > (February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. > If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power. > -- Yoshimi Ishikawa > --------------------------------------------------------- > The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the > right of the people at large or considered as individuals... > It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable > and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive > them of. -- Albert Gallatin, Oct 7 1789 > --------------------------------------------------------- > The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised > over any member of a civilized community, against his will, > is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical > or moral, is not a sufficient warrant > -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859 > --------------------------------------------------------- > clintonsoft.c:666: warning: `morality_and_integrity' defined but not used > -------------------------------------------------------- > Raymond Moyers N5LAX email: rmoyers@nop.org > -------------------------------------------------------- Few people are saved after the first half hour of sermon. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 10:34:25 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone know... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843E1@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > > Um -- dd? > dd is great for moving around raw HD partitions (providing the source > and dest are the same size), but I think you are looking for something > like mkisofs. I've used it under Solaris. That depends on what he meant by "make ISO images of cd roms." I read that to mean "I want to make a raw copy of the disk, and I'm just saying ISO out of habit." You obviously read it to mean "I want to make an ISO image out of some files I've got so that I can burn it onto a CD." So which was it? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 11 10:53:04 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anybody know what an Intel Series 90 is? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411115304.0086a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The title says it all. Joe From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 11:07:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone know... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843E5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > To capture an existing CD-ROM into an image file, most > likely, Chris is correct, but I haven't gone that direction > yet. I have. It works as long as the block size isn't odd. Generally any cd will take a block size of 2048 bytes, however, if the CD is "bad" (scratched, or what not), a smaller block size (1 ;) may help you get more good data at the expense of some speed. You can also use the conv=noerror option to ignore read errors if you really want whatever data you can get. As somebody else mentioned, cat works too, but it doesn't have an option to make it ignore read errors and keep going. Otherwise, you're right, use mkisofs, or mkhybrid to make a filesystem from some of your files, and then use cdrecord to burn it. There is another program (cdwrite?), but I don't think it has nearly the same level of device compatibility, not to mention that the number of systems cdrecord will build for is very impressive. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jrice at texoma.net Thu Apr 11 11:19:32 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards References: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> <62191.62.148.198.97.1018515687.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <3CB5B794.5050906@texoma.net> Digi makes a media converter to bridge between 10B2 and 10BT. They show up at suplus shops for a couple of bucks. James Jarkko Teppo wrote: > Gary Hildebrand said: > >>Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface >>(DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an >>adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test >>these out through a hub. >> >>Any comments? >> >> > > Also known as transceivers, the best thing since sugar coated cheerios. > I mainly use CentreCOM (Allied Telesis ?). They work just fine. > > Nice haul btw :) > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 11 11:21:44 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <002801c1e0e9$ced74220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB5D438.24814.517FDD2B@localhost> > > > > > > Well, usualy this doesn't work, because of the different CPUs > > > > > > (I assume we are talking about CP/M80 - CP/M86 will of course > > > > > > boot on most classic PCs). The only way beside Emulators under > > > > > > DOS/Win, and rare coprocessor boards is of course the NEC V20. > > > > > > A V20 is for all PC/PC-XT machines a must, because of about > > > > > > 10% faster execution (the V20 core is build like the 186/286). > My first PC had a 10 MHz 80186 as its CPU, though it was an XT architecture. > It easily outperformed the early (6 MHz) PC/AT types, though I'm not sure why. Of course it should. The 186 core is exactly the same core as the real mode pert of a 286. CPI (clock per instruction) numbers are exactly the same. So a 8 MHz 186 (as used in the PC-D) outperforms a 6 MHz 286 as used in the original AT by 25% - in fact, when the idiots at SIEMENS switched for standard PC architecture, their first machine was a 8MHz 286 ... and they had quite a problem to explain to their customers why they should buy the new machine ... so the ver next (within just a few weeks) was a 10 and then a 12 MHz version :) > > > there's a BIOS call. All the CP/M BIOS has to do is call the code that > > > switches to native mode before interpreting the parameters of the call. > > Jep. that kind of stub code is needed. But wheren't there some problems > > when switching back ? It wasn't all easy. > True, but though it wasn't easy, once accomplished, the time penalty for it > would be made up in increased performance in the BIOS. Hmm. as long as we talk floppies and other regular I/O there is almost no difference between an 8080 BIOS, and a 8088 BIOS. Transferrates are the same. at 4.77 MHz the CPU is waiting anyway for the disk to turn. To me the real advantage is to use all kinds of standard MS-DOS drivers for various hardware and present them so the CP/M programm as standard devices. Of course including the usage of features where CP/M has no idea of - like sub directories. > > > I've looked long and hard at this, having wanted to use a V50 (16-bits, > > > enhanced execution unit, integrated peripherals, DMAC, PIC, UART) > > As for the enhanced execution parts, the V20 and V50 are the same. Both > > are from the CPU part like the 186 - or like the 286 sans virtual adressing. > The '286 didn't inherently support VM as did the '386, BTW. It did have > memory management, but only in a primitive way. It wasn't as primitive as the > already clumsy segmented architecture of the 8086 family. Now here I have to disagree in any way. First, the 8086 segmented architecture was anything but clumsy. I'd rather considere it a real handy way to extend the addressing range of a 16 Bit CPU. I always liked the segemt registers for the clean and simple design. Shure, one could have whished for a processor with more general purpose registers, where every register could have been used as base (segment) register, but this would have bloathed the RISCish architecture of the 8086. Second, the 286 had virtual memory. I don't know what other considere criterias to define virtual memory. To me there are two basic functions: a) Each process gets an adress space starting at address zero and growing up to some more or less logical upper limit. b) The system enables some kind of swaping or pageing to share a limited amout of RAM, so the sum of all memory needed for the system to perform may be larger than the real installed memory. To form a VM system both functions have to be provided in a manner which is invisible to a regular user programm. (sometimes there is a third function named, memory protection - which means one programm should not be allowed to access memory outside of it's process due a faulty instruction - I'd considere this only a nice to have feature). Criteria a is already matched with the basic 8086 design. Manipulation of segment registers is only valid for the OS or with values provided by the OS. Just the 8086 doesent provide any help for function b. The 286 introduced not only segment fault processing to provide function b, but also added memory protection. The 386 added anoter mode of segmentation and finaly a mode for page orientated virtual memory, still, VM was already there with the 286 (and just remember all the Unixes on 286 machines). Of course page orientated virtual memory is far better suited to random applications and way simplier to use than segment based, nonetheless both are here to fulfill the same need. I never thought I have to defend swaping, which I considere inferior (Sorry, I'm grown up in a /370 environment) > > > in the same > > > way. Mounting a couple of 8-bit ISA cards on an S-100 board is quite > > > straightforward, and the signals seem to work out quite well, too. The > > > combination I'd use would be an 8-bit monochrome display board and an > > > 8-bit HDC. > > See, where is the idea of using an S100 bus system and then adding ISA > > cards ? I'd rather take a XT clone, plug in a V20 and let the hardware > > be standard (8 Bit) PC hardware > I wouldn't do that to cook up a replica of an old system, but I would to > create a development tool with which to work up software for an Imsai or other > old-timer. and, speaking of old-timers, do you know whether the V20 does the > "address mirror" thing common to 8080's, where the low address byte appears on > the high address bus during I/O cycles? I've got a couple of old S-100 boards > that rely on that for some of their functions. Nop, it doesn't. The V20 bus is a strict 8088 inplementation, and as such in no way related to the 8080 Bus. Also when building a new old system, I'd use a V30 or V50 (as you suggested) which offers a 16 Bit bus - and then of course use 16 Bit I/O cards (HD etc.) to speed up operation (we had a lightning 8080 in mind, hadn't we ?). This is especialy true when useing a ATA Disk drive - 16 Bit data transfer is quite a runner. Since _classic_ S100 is an 8 Bit bus, connectng anny Hardware, beside some maybe serial is quite useless - One exception is eventualy to drive some hardware where you are just developing 8080 rivers for (to use in your classic target system). Again, the last feature can still be acomplishend by a ISA to S100 interface. So no special hardware but a XT (maybe a fast, 10 MHz XT :) and the S100 Interface. > > and MS-DOS as superior BIOS (Well, in > > fact I belive MS-DOS is still one of the best, if not the best bootloader > > available). > I personally never learned to like CP/M-86, so it doesn't interest me. I do, > however, like the notion of running the very fast 8080 internal to the V50 at > 8-16 MHz, with its 16-bit data bus, just to hot-rod the OS. What's more, > interfacing an IDE drive would suddenly become utterly trivial. It wouldn't > even interest me a little bit to run CP/M 86 on the same platform. > I won't wander off into the argument over whether MSDOS is actually "better" > than CP/M. However, if you're running a PC, then I think MSDOS, which was > designed for it is the OS you should use. If you want to run CP/M on a PC, I > still favor CP/M-80 via an emulator over running CP/M 86 on a PC. For one > thing, it offends me that the "better" hardware running the "better" software > was actually slower than comparable Z80 hardware running the CP/M-80. That's > why it took so long for me to move to a PC. I couldn't justify spending > nearly $5k (which was what a PC/XT with a 50 MB hard disk cost back then) only > to have it run at 75% or less the speed of my already familiar and functional > CP/M box with that size hard disk. I guess we are just talking without listening. My point was jsut that MS-DOS makes a great base for whatever project - like a bootloader. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Apr 11 11:27:43 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: HP 88780 / 7980XC Interface Question In-Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman"'s message of "Thu, 11 Apr 2002 10:59:04 -0400" References: <000e01c1e169$6c831470$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <200204111627.g3BGRhBq094735@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > I see lots of references to these drives... > > Do they possess multiple interfaces, or do you get > one that has the interface you need? You get one that has the interface you need, but I think you can swap interfaces; e.g. I've swapped a single-ended SCSI interface board into one that I got with a differential SCSI interface. Note that the interface board is screwed to the back plate which has the cutout for the connector, so if you get a different interface board you may also want to get the appropriate back plate for it. > I've seen one with an HP-GPIB interface connector > on the back, and was wondering if I pull that rear > cover off, will I find a set of Pertect interface > connectors hiding there? Or is that simply a different > model? I haven't looked inside one with a Pertec interface, but the SCSI interfaces expect to plug into a flat cable that is in the base of the drive and I expect the Pertec interface would too. There's also a four-slot card cage in the right side of the drive, accessible by removing a top cover. The boards installed in this cage make a difference too. Later drives have only three cards installed (the read/write/PLL boards and formatter board were replaced by a single board). 7980A and 7980XC are HP-IB-interface drives sold into the HP minicomputer markets. The XC suffix means the drive was sold with a variant board that supports data compression (meaning you can write tapes that are only readable by other 7980XCs). 7980S is the same drive with a SCSI (single-ended I think) interface, sold into the HP minicomputer market. At one point HP offered a field upgrade kit to change your HP-IB drive to a SCSI drive. There is also a variant board that supports 800 BPI (in addition to 1600 and 6250). I believe that 800 BPI and XC compression are mutually exclusive (you can't have one drive that does both). 7979A is an HP-IB-interface flavor of the drive that supports neither 6250 BPI nor data compression. I'm not sure but this may simply be a different-variant board as well. 88780 are drives sold outside the HP minicomputer markets, including OEMs like IBM, Sun, and Tandem. Of course the OEMs came up with their own model numbers. I have some notes that say data compression was option 400 and 800 BPI was option 800, but I'm not sure whether this applied to a 7980 or 88780. -Frank McConnell From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 11 11:32:55 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <3CB4D5DF.21735.1BEFDAE@localhost> References: <3CB4A9C4.7095.4CF20859@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB5D6D7.19304.518A1AD0@localhost> > Badly put. I do know better. ??? > A lot of the later mods for the ST were really > interesting too. Geneva, Magic and Terradisk come to mind. There was a lot > of development that came out of Germany for the ST. Jep. And before that nice things like KAOS, a complete rewritten TOS with way less errors and dammed higher performancs - some desktop apps where running 10 to 50 percent faster due the great improvements within the AES. In fact, it was a complete reengeniered and redone GEM. The other grat product would be NVDI - a replacement for the VDI (virtual device Interface). while still keeping all functionality, some drawing operations where speed up 20 times - a average speedup of another 5 to 30 percent, depending on the graphic workload was possible. Using KAOS and NVDI let applications on a 8 MHz original ST feel/run almost as fast as on a 16 MHz Mega STE. I guess we loved the system ... Maybe the Amiga/Atari wars where nowhere else fought with the same vigilance than in Germany ... Youd rather dumped your friends than admiting that the other machine could be more worth than the dirt under your nails. Gruss H. (It took me years until I was ready not only to own an Amiga, but also have fun playing with it.) -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Thu Apr 11 11:42:35 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A (smallest gate count computer) In-Reply-To: <00a101c1e16a$14c93c40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: The lowest gate count computer I ever built had two 1 bit accumulators, and four instructions: AND, NAND, OR, and STORE. It also had a program counter, a program store, and a data store. The instruction word had a two bit opcode and a six bit data address. It really was a sort of PLC (programmable logic controller). I remember the program store was something like eight 2102 RAMs. The rest was maybe a dozen 7400 series TTL chips. I didn't finish the data store section, but I was able to demonstrate its operation by toggling in data values by hand as I stepped through the program. The details are a bit fuzzy. I think it had two 1 bit accumulators, one for the min-term and one for the sum. AND would load a bit from the data store and "and" it to the minterm. NAND would do the same except invert the data first. OR would "or" the minterm into the sum. STORE would save the OR of the two accumulators to a data location, and preset the minterm accumulator to 1 and the sum accumulator to 0. It had no flow control. The PC was simply a 10 bit counter that cycled the entire program endlessly. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology????????????? Mayfield Heights, OH 44124, USA Mayfield Heights Labs??????????? jrengdahl@safeaccess.com 440-646-7326 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:04 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Does Anyone Have A Just in the interest of getting a good sence of the problem and it's solution, what is the minimum number of gates necessary to implement a stored program computer? I guess the instruction set would be something like (IF(x=0),JMP,ADD,SUB,MOV) Was Simon attempting to be this? John A. with a few relays kicking around. From hhacker at ev1.net Thu Apr 11 11:50:24 2002 From: hhacker at ev1.net (William R. Buckley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020411115304.0086a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Over the past year, I have sent several messages to Tom Shoppa requesting a set of CD ROMs containing the offerings of his at the web site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received the requested material. I have also sent email to Tom directly but, he has not answered. Is there some extenuating circumstance of which others on this list are more familiar than I? William R. Buckley, Director Emeritus International Core Wars Society From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Apr 11 11:46:29 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E21@BUSH02> The point is, I can't see a real difference between a ROM chip and a decoder + gates. Electronically they're much the same thing. Physically, to change the program, I have to use a soldering iron. It is _not_ clear to me why one is called firmware and the other called hardware. How about .. Hardware is the physical part(s) of a design that can be seen, touched, crushed, thrown, weighed etc. Firmware is the idea statically implemented in that hardware. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 11 12:02:13 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards In-Reply-To: <3CB5B794.5050906@texoma.net> References: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> <62191.62.148.198.97.1018515687.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> <3CB5B794.5050906@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20020411170212.GI327303@uiuc.edu> a LOT of people have made (and still do make) these, actually. They're mostly crap, so if you find a few at a surplus shop get them all, so you have a better chance that one will actually work... James L. Rice said: > Digi makes a media converter to bridge between 10B2 and 10BT. They show > > up at suplus shops for a couple of bucks. > > James > > Jarkko Teppo wrote: > > >Gary Hildebrand said: > > > >>Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface > >>(DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an > >>adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test > >>these out through a hub. > >> > >>Any comments? > >> > >> > > > >Also known as transceivers, the best thing since sugar coated cheerios. > >I mainly use CentreCOM (Allied Telesis ?). They work just fine. > > > >Nice haul btw :) > > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 11 12:12:52 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843EB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: William R. Buckley [mailto:hhacker@ev1.net] > Over the past year, I have sent several messages to Tom Shoppa > requesting a set of CD ROMs containing the offerings of his at > the web site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received > the requested material. I have also sent email to Tom directly > but, he has not answered. Is there some extenuating circumstance > of which others on this list are more familiar than I? FWIW, I've tried to contact Tim a couple times too, and not gotten a response. I hope he's ok. :/ Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 11 12:20:26 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa Message-ID: <000701c1e17d$2c40f260$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Over the past year, I have sent several messages to Tom Shoppa > requesting a set of CD ROMs containing the offerings of his at > the web site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received > the requested material. I have also sent email to Tom directly > but, he has not answered. Is there some extenuating circumstance > of which others on this list are more familiar than I? While it's possible that he's a bit put off being called 'Tom' instead of 'Tim', which is his name, I doubt it... I know it's often regarded as an 'excuse' when someone from whom you exxpect something says that they're 'busy', but Tim really is... he already had a large backlog of of work at his tape conversion firm, but my understanding is that Sept. 11 stretched his work queue out to the length of one year. Yes, he has what he has estimated to be a one year-long queue of work to process. He does seem to find time to post here and there, but a monk's got to have some pleasures in life... It would be *nice* if he'd be willing to delegate the taking care of loose ends on his behalf. He doesn't owe me anything, though I'd love to get his attention for 15 minutes of Q&A... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 11 12:25:30 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A In-Reply-To: <00a101c1e16a$14c93c40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > Just in the interest of getting a good sence of the > problem and it's solution, what is the minimum > number of gates necessary to implement a stored > program computer? I guess the instruction set > would be something like (IF(x=0),JMP,ADD,SUB,MOV) That's an interesting question. ADD and SUB are pretty high-level concepts (compared to a minimalist implementation). I guess the minimal "complete" machine would be a Turing machine. > Was Simon attempting to be this? It was a complete computer (including paper tape reader, blinkenlights, toggles, the works). Initially it was a 2-bit machine, and later both the instruction set and word size were expanded. There was a project for a drum memory peripheral, but I don't know if it was ever completed. So, it wasn't an attempt at minimalism as much as it was an attempt to bring computers to the average guy at a time when they were room-filling "Giant Brains" accessible to only a few. Cheers, Doug From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 11 13:14:02 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Very Old Texas Instruments IC's Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411141402.0084b7b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found a TI data book dated 1971 and it doesn't even mention 12xx ICs. It appears that by 1971 TI had switched entirely to the 54/74xx series. I have a couple of even older TI books if I can find them. Joe > >Rick, > > SOMEWHERE I have an old TI IC catalog from around that time period. I'll try and find it and look them up. > > Joe > >At 06:44 AM 4/10/02 -0700, you wrote: >>Hello, >> >>I've come across some old TI IC's that I'm hoping someone out there can >>shed some light on. >> >>The date codes on the chips place them in late '67 to early '68. >>The part numbers are: >> >>SN1286 >>SN1287 >>SN1288 >> >>They are in 24-pin dual-inline plastic packages. The pin spacing 0.10 >>inch >>between pins, and 0.50 inch between the rows of pins. >> >>These three chips are on a board that is populated with SSI DTL & early >>TTL devices >>in the SN15xxx and SN58xx DTL families, and SN74xx (only SN7474) TTL >>devices. >>All of the SSI stuff has date codes ranging from 6742 (week 42 '67) to >>6804 >>(week 4 '68). >> >>Can anyone out there shed any light on these old devices? >> >>Yes...the board with these chips on them is from an old Singer/Friden >>calculator. >> >>Thanks, >>Rick Bensene >>The Old Calculator Web Museum >>http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators >> >> >> From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 11 13:09:08 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: OT: BLAME WHO????????? (Warning: Possible Humor) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411140908.008a55f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> BLAME WHO????????? Let's see if I understand how the world works lately... If a man cuts his finger off while slicing salami at work, he blames the restaurant. If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your family blames the tobacco company. If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, he blames the bartender. If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television. If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun manufacturer. And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the pilot at 35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the deceased blames the airline. I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore. So, if I die while my butt is parked in front of this computer, I want you to blame Microsoft and Bill Gates ...okay? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 11 13:09:39 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Getting Unix to run on a PDP-11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20020303105223.F53115-100000@mail.huebner.org> Message-ID: <3CB5ED83.27693.51E2AABF@localhost> > The 11/34 system in Hans Franke's collection has several bootable Unix > RK05 packs - it ran at one time when the units were in my possesion. Well, there are some problems with the labeling ... > Just an FYI; and now I have become unpopular w/Hans. > Varry sorry Saar... You got to try harder on this ... boy. :) H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From wstan at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 11 13:21:48 2002 From: wstan at xs4all.nl (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa In-Reply-To: <000701c1e17d$2c40f260$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com>; from dquebbeman@acm.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:20:26PM -0400 References: <000701c1e17d$2c40f260$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020411202148.B23267@xs4all.nl> That url doesn't seem to work for me. It forwards me to ibiblio. Is there another way to his site? I am curious about the nature of his work. On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:20:26PM -0400, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > the web site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received -- Bill Amsterdam, NL From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 11 13:25:16 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. References: Message-ID: <3CB5D50C.2A85D433@compsys.to> >"William R. Buckley" wrote: > Over the past year, I have sent several messages to Tom Shoppa > requesting a set of CD ROMs containing the offerings of his at > the web site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received > the requested material. I have also sent email to Tom directly > but, he has not answered. Is there some extenuating circumstance > of which others on this list are more familiar than I? > > William R. Buckley, Director Emeritus > International Core Wars Society Jerome Fine replies: >From information gleaned from a number of sources, including Tim Shoppa himself (TIM NOT TOM), Tim is providing support for a $ 10 Billion system of some sort which likely uses VMS. I don't think I can be any more accurate that the above description and it may be exaggerated a bit, but from what I know of Tim's background, the hardware controlled by the computer may well have cost that much. As such, Tim has almost no time for anything else except his family. As for the CDs which you requested, you did not specify RSX or RT-11. If the latter, I can help since I now have a CD burner. Does anyone else have copies of the RSX-11 set of 2 CDs? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 11 13:26:48 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 References: Message-ID: <3CB5D568.9F153A3D@compsys.to> With regard to RT-11, I have a request - does anyone think it is worthwhile to keep track of and have a centralized location which records as many of the current RT-11 bugs as possible? If anyone agrees and has any information about any existing bugs in RT-11, I would like to share my list with them. In addition, I would also like to fix them. I don't think a formal SPR is needed, just an initial brief description. Is there any interest out there? Even if you don't have any bugs to contribute, please comment if you think a central location is a good idea so that everyone who uses RT-11 can be aware of the current list of bugs. I have a feeling that no one else is interested outside of a very few individuals who have asked me to tell them about a bug I recently found, but have not responded when I asked them to allow me to add the bug to the current list. Maybe I am out of touch with how bugs get fixed, but if no one knows about them, how will they get corrected? So if you are interested, please add your two cents!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 11 13:45:41 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: <3CB5D50C.2A85D433@compsys.to> References: Message-ID: >From information gleaned from a number of sources, including Tim >Shoppa himself (TIM NOT TOM), Tim is providing support >for a $ 10 Billion system of some sort which likely uses VMS. >I don't think I can be any more accurate that the above description >and it may be exaggerated a bit, but from what I know of Tim's >background, the hardware controlled by the computer may well >have cost that much. It's not exaggerated, from what I know of the 'peripheral' attached to those computers, if anything that's a bit low. >As such, Tim has almost no time for anything else except his family. I think this is where all of his free time is going, which is as it should be. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 13:46:17 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <02Apr11.115210edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20020411184617.75398.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > >More modern Amiga chips and OSes will give you VGA-friendly modes, but > >that only works once the OS is up. It's a pain to diagnose boot > >problems. > > Unless you are lucky enough to have an A3000 with it's > built-in scandoubler! Well... I left them out because we were talking about A2000/A2500 boxes. Luck has little to do with it - I have three A3000s, one I got brand new with OS2.01 with it as an A1000 tradeup ($1,850, ISTR). All have the full 18MB RAM (16MB FAST, 2MB CHIP), varying amounts of disk, *high density floppies* and Ethernet. One even has an A-Max II board that I used to use to drive an HP-4ML from A-Max as my primary word-processing (and Risk ;-) machine. The bad news is that I haven't turned on any of them since I brought back an A4000 from N.Z. a few years ago (replaced the innards of the PSU with an American one). I even managed to replace the 68EC030 on the CPU card with a full 68030 (SMT rework station at work!) and eventually aquire a full 68040 card (A3640). Still... it was nice having the scan doubler and the C1950 monitor, even if I had to send the 1950 out under warranty at least once and repair it on my own twice. Not the most robust monitor, but it is nice when it works. The other option is that there _are_ scan doubler cards for the A2000. I have one. I would gladly trade it for a Toaster setup. Still best to have a proper multisync, though, especially if you want to play old games. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 11 13:59:22 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411145922.007c73f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi All, I just talked to Eric Smith and he's going to be visiting this area (Orlando) around May 17 or 18. I thought it might be a good time for another Junk Feast. Let me know if you're interested. Joe From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 11 13:53:28 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665B0@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Does anyone else have copies of the RSX-11 set of 2 CDs? At one point the RSX, TOPS and RT11 CDs were all available as binary images. I know I downloaded all of them and burned them to CD with no problems. (Well, maybe a slight issue with the RT11 one IIRC - I used W98 and whatever burning software I used was not too happy verifying it ... seemed usable though). Tim does not seem to have any problems with people downloading large amounts of data so rather than ask for a CD, just burn one. Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 11 13:58:04 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) In-Reply-To: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) (Joe) References: <3.0.6.32.20020411145922.007c73f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <15541.56508.257792.216590@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 11, Joe wrote: > I just talked to Eric Smith and he's going to be visiting this area (Orlando) around May 17 or 18. I thought it might be a good time for another Junk Feast. Let me know if you're interested. Hey! Yes!! :-) I missed the last one because I hadn't moved down here yet...but now I'm just a little ways away in St. Petersburg. Barring any catastrophe, count me in! -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Apr 11 14:09:50 2002 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <01KGFSKJKUUA9UMB7C@cc.usu.edu> > Even if you don't have any bugs to contribute, please comment > if you think a central location is a good idea so that everyone > who uses RT-11 can be aware of the current list of bugs. FWIW, I think a central bug listing is a good idea. Caveat on my opinion: I do not currently have any PDP-11s operational, although I have several that could, conceivably, be put into working condition on short order. I.e., I'm not currently running RT-11, although it's on my List of Things to Do. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From spc at conman.org Thu Apr 11 14:10:33 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kirby" at Apr 11, 2002 10:12:17 AM Message-ID: <200204111910.PAA16330@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Kris Kirby once stated: > > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: > > Boot to non-timesharing then use ED (sorry no other choice usually) > > to edit passwd file. set the Root user password to NULL (no characters). > > boot to timeshare level and then log in as root with no password. > > For those of us "young'uns", would someone point me to a guide on "ED"? Isn't it like vi, only without being full screen, and without prompts? -spc (Or am I thinking of ex?) From bobbeleh at earthlink.net Thu Apr 11 14:20:13 2002 From: bobbeleh at earthlink.net (Bobbe Leviten) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Info on Bill Godbout Message-ID: <002101c1e18d$e81df400$49dafc9e@vaio> Hi I'm new to this forum and I'm looking for info on contacting Bill Godbout. I worked for him and Mike Quinn back in the early/mid 70s, testing ICs in the back room of Quinn's. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bobbe bobbeleh@earthlink.net ********************************************************************** We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are. ********************************************************************** From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 11 06:27:30 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, William R. Buckley wrote: > Over the past year, I have sent several messages to Tom Shoppa > requesting a set of CD ROMs containing the offerings of his at the web > site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received the requested > material. I have also sent email to Tom directly but, he has not > answered. Is there some extenuating circumstance of which others on this > list are more familiar than I? Maybe because you're addressing him as "Tom" instead of Tim, which is his first name? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 11 14:53:27 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) In-Reply-To: <15541.56508.257792.216590@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20020411145922.007c73f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020411155327.0081a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dave, Good. Hope to see you there. BTW I haven't forgoteen about your request for info in the scanner. I've got to go out and take a look at it and get the details. From what I remember it's a Fujitsu 3096. (Actually there's threeof them.) I did have cables and controller cards for them including the daughterboards with loads of memory on them but I don't know if the cards and cables are still around. Joe At 02:58 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote: >On April 11, Joe wrote: >> I just talked to Eric Smith and he's going to be visiting this area (Orlando) around May 17 or 18. I thought it might be a good time for another Junk Feast. Let me know if you're interested. > > Hey! Yes!! :-) I missed the last one because I hadn't moved down >here yet...but now I'm just a little ways away in St. Petersburg. >Barring any catastrophe, count me in! > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" >St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 11 14:40:10 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <200204111506.LAA20811@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3CB5E69A.F3C7ACAE@ccp.com> Now if they continue on in the Commodore tradition, it will either sell like hotcakes and they will keep cutting the prices until there is one in every garage and yard sale. And of course there will be NO hardware or software support of any kind. A massive cult following will continue interest long after the corporation goes bankrupt on a yearly basis. A long time commode-Door fan Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO Bryan Pope wrote: > > To all who may be interested, > > The "CommodoreOne" is nearing completion. Check out > http://www.commodoreone.com for a picture of the partially assembled > motherboard! :) (Click on news) > > If that site is down, go to http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/ and click > on "CommodoreOne Details" for a bigger picture with important features pointed > out. > > Cheers, > > Bryan From philip at awale.qc.ca Thu Apr 11 14:42:43 2002 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: <20020411150118.53666.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11-Apr-2002 Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Doc wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: >> >> > >> > ...how to make ISO images of CD-ROM's under Linux? >> > >> > Peace... Sridhar > > Sorry... I was thinking how to make image files from files in a > filesystem, > not how to make image files from a real CD-ROM. > > dd is what you want, but the parameters may vary if the disc is not > a boring ISO-9660 type. I doubt bs has any affect. -Philip From philip at awale.qc.ca Thu Apr 11 14:43:19 2002 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: <20020411145418.GA327303@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On 11-Apr-2002 Dan Wright wrote: > Doc said: >> >> If the disk is a non-ISO filesystem, like an AIX install or Mac CD, >> then: >> >> dd if=/dev/scd0 of=image.iso bs=1 > > I've had equally good luck with bs=512...though I haven't tried to copy > OpenVMS CDs. I doubt bs= has any affect. Ie : bs=712 will work just as well as bs=3 IN THIS CASE. -Philip From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 11 14:45:36 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password In-Reply-To: <200204111910.PAA16330@conman.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020411144536.0098b810@ubanproductions.com> At 03:10 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Kris Kirby once stated: >> >> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: >> > Boot to non-timesharing then use ED (sorry no other choice usually) >> > to edit passwd file. set the Root user password to NULL (no characters). >> > boot to timeshare level and then log in as root with no password. >> >> For those of us "young'uns", would someone point me to a guide on "ED"? > > Isn't it like vi, only without being full screen, and without prompts? > > -spc (Or am I thinking of ex?) > > > No, it is strictly a line oriented editor. Here is the manual page for ED(1). --tom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ED(1) ED(1) NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [-] [-sx] [-p string] [file] DESCRIPTION ed is a line-oriented text editor. It is used to create, display, modify and otherwise manipulate text files. If invoked with a file argument, then a copy of file is read into the editor's buffer. Changes are made to this copy and not directly to file itself. Upon quitting ed, any changes not explicitly saved with a `w' command are lost. Editing is done in two distinct modes: command and input. When first invoked, ed is in command mode. In this mode commands are read from the standard input and executed to manipulate the contents of the editor buffer. A typical command might look like: ,s/old/new/g which replaces all occurences of the string old with new. When an input command, such as `a' (append), `i' (insert) or `c' (change), is given, ed enters input mode. This is the primary means of adding text to a file. In this mode, no commands are available; instead, the standard input is written directly to the editor buffer. Lines consist of text up to and including a newline character. Input mode is terminated by entering a single period (.) on a line. All ed commands operate on whole lines or ranges of lines; e.g., the `d' command deletes lines; the `m' command moves lines, and so on. It is possible to modify only a portion of a line by means of replacement, as in the example above. However even here, the `s' command is applied to whole lines at a time. In general, ed commands consist of zero or more line addresses, followed by a single character command and pos- sibly additional parameters; i.e., commands have the structure: [address [,address]]command[parameters] The address(es) indicate the line or range of lines to be affected by the command. If fewer addresses are given than the command accepts, then default addresses are sup- plied. 21 May 1993 1 ED(1) ED(1) OPTIONS -s Suppresses diagnostics. This should be used if ed's standard input is from a script. -x Prompts for an encryption key to be used in subse- quent reads and writes (see the `x' command). -p string Specifies a command prompt. This may be toggled on and off with the `P' command. file Specifies the name of a file to read. If file is prefixed with a bang (!), then it is interpreted as a shell command. In this case, what is read is the standard output of file executed via sh(1). To read a file whose name begins with a bang, pre- fix the name with a backslash (\). The default filename is set to file only if it is not prefixed with a bang. LINE ADDRESSING An address represents the number of a line in the buffer. ed maintains a current address which is typically supplied to commands as the default address when none is specified. When a file is first read, the current address is set to the last line of the file. In general, the current address is set to the last line affected by a command. A line address is constructed from one of the bases in the list below, optionally followed by a numeric offset. The offset may include any combination of digits, operators (i.e., +, - and ^) and whitespace. Addresses are read from left to right, and their values are computed relative to the current address. One exception to the rule that addresses represent line numbers is the address 0 (zero). This means "before the first line," and is legal wherever it makes sense. An address range is two addresses separated either by a comma or semi-colon. The value of the first address in a range cannot exceed the value of the second. If only one address is given in a range, then the second address is set to the given address. If an n-tuple of addresses is given where n > 2, then the corresponding range is deter- mined by the last two addresses in the n-tuple. If only one address is expected, then the last address is used. Each address in a comma-delimited range is interpreted relative to the current address. In a semi-colon- 21 May 1993 2 ED(1) ED(1) delimited range, the first address is used to set the cur- rent address, and the second address is interpreted rela- tive to the first. The following address symbols are recognized. . The current line (address) in the buffer. $ The last line in the buffer. n The nth, line in the buffer where n is a number in the range [0,$]. - or ^ The previous line. This is equivalent to -1 and may be repeated with cumulative effect. -n or ^n The nth previous line, where n is a non-negative number. + The next line. This is equivalent to +1 and may be repeated with cumulative effect. +n or whitespacen The nth next line, where n is a non-negative num- ber. whitespace followed by a number n is inter- preted as +n. , or % The first through last lines in the buffer. This is equivalent to the address range 1,$. ; The current through last lines in the buffer. This is equivalent to the address range .,$. /re/ The next line containing the regular expression re. The search wraps to the beginning of the buffer and continues down to the current line, if necessary. // repeats the last search. ?re? The previous line containing the regular expres- sion re. The search wraps to the end of the buffer and continues up to the current line, if 21 May 1993 3 ED(1) ED(1) necessary. ?? repeats the last search. 'lc The line previously marked by a `k' (mark) com- mand, where lc is a lower case letter. REGULAR EXPRESSIONS Regular expressions are patterns used in selecting text. For example, the ed command g/string/ prints all lines containing string. Regular expressions are also used by the `s' command for selecting old text to be replaced with new. In addition to a specifying string literals, regular expressions can represent classes of strings. Strings thus represented are said to be matched by the correspond- ing regular expression. If it is possible for a regular expression to match several strings in a line, then the left-most longest match is the one selected. The following symbols are used in constructing regular expressions: c Any character c not listed below, including `{', '}', `(', `)', `<' and `>', matches itself. \c Any backslash-escaped character c, except for `{', '}', `(', `)', `<' and `>', matches itself. Matches any single character. [char-class] Matches any single character in char-class. To include a `]' in char-class, it must be the first character. A range of characters may be specified by separating the end characters of the range with a `-', e.g., `a-z' specifies the lower case char- acters. The following literal expressions can also be used in char-class to specify sets of characters: [:alnum:] [:cntrl:] [:lower:] [:space:] [:alpha:] [:digit:] [:print:] [:upper:] [:blank:] [:graph:] [:punct:] [:xdigit:] If `-' appears as the first or last character of 21 May 1993 4 ED(1) ED(1) char-class, then it matches itself. All other characters in char-class match themselves. Patterns in char-class of the form: [.col-elm.] or, [=col-elm=] where col-elm is a collating element are inter- preted according to locale(5) (not currently sup- ported). See regex(3) for an explanation of these constructs. [^char-class] Matches any single character, other than newline, not in char-class. char-class is defined as above. ^ If `^' is the first character of a regular expres- sion, then it anchors the regular expression to the beginning of a line. Otherwise, it matches itself. $ If `$' is the last character of a regular expres- sion, it anchors the regular expression to the end of a line. Otherwise, it matches itself. \< Anchors the single character regular expression or subexpression immediately following it to the beginning of a word. (This may not be available) \> Anchors the single character regular expression or subexpression immediately following it to the end of a word. (This may not be available) \(re\) Defines a subexpression re. Subexpressions may be nested. A subsequent backreference of the form `\n', where n is a number in the range [1,9], expands to the text matched by the nth subexpres- sion. For example, the regular expression `\(.*\)\1' matches any string consisting of iden- tical adjacent substrings. Subexpressions are ordered relative to their left delimiter. * Matches the single character regular expression or subexpression immediately preceding it zero or more times. If '*' is the first character of a regular expression or subexpression, then it matches itself. The `*' operator sometimes yields unexpected results. For example, the regular expression `b*' matches the beginning of the string `abbb' (as opposed to the substring `bbb'), since a null match is the only left-most match. 21 May 1993 5 ED(1) ED(1) \{n,m\} or \{n,\} or \{n\} Matches the single character regular expression or subexpression immediately preceding it at least n and at most m times. If m is omitted, then it matches at least n times. If the comma is also omitted, then it matches exactly n times. Additional regular expression operators may be defined depending on the particular regex(3) implementation. COMMANDS All ed commands are single characters, though some require additonal parameters. If a command's parameters extend over several lines, then each line except for the last must be terminated with a backslash (\). In general, at most one command is allowed per line. How- ever, most commands accept a print suffix, which is any of `p' (print), `l' (list) , or `n' (enumerate), to print the last line affected by the command. An interrupt (typically ^C) has the effect of aborting the current command and returning the editor to command mode. ed recognizes the following commands. The commands are shown together with the default address or address range supplied if none is specified (in parenthesis). (.)a Appends text to the buffer after the addressed line. Text is entered in input mode. The current address is set to last line entered. (.,.)c Changes lines in the buffer. The addressed lines are deleted from the buffer, and text is appended in their place. Text is entered in input mode. The current address is set to last line entered. (.,.)d Deletes the addressed lines from the buffer. If there is a line after the deleted range, then the current address is set to this line. Otherwise the current address is set to the line before the deleted range. e file Edits file, and sets the default filename. If file is not specified, then the default filename is used. Any lines in the buffer are deleted before the new file is read. The current address is set to the last line read. e !command Edits the standard output of `!command', (see !command below). The default filename is unchanged. Any lines in the buffer are deleted before the output of command is read. The current 21 May 1993 6 ED(1) ED(1) address is set to the last line read. E file Edits file unconditionally. This is similar to the e command, except that unwritten changes are discarded without warning. The current address is set to the last line read. f file Sets the default filename to file. If file is not specified, then the default unescaped filename is printed. (1,$)g/re/command-list Applies command-list to each of the addressed lines matching a regular expression re. The cur- rent address is set to the line currently matched before command-list is executed. At the end of the `g' command, the current address is set to the last line affected by command-list. Each command in command-list must be on a separate line, and every line except for the last must be terminated by a backslash (\). Any commands are allowed, except for `g', `G', `v', and `V'. A newline alone in command-list is equivalent to a `p' command. (1,$)G/re/ Interactively edits the addressed lines matching a regular expression re. For each matching line, the line is printed, the current address is set, and the user is prompted to enter a command-list. At the end of the `G' command, the current address is set to the last line affected by (the last) command-list. The format of command-list is the same as that of the `g' command. A newline alone acts as a null command list. A single `&' repeats the last non- null command list. H Toggles the printing of error explanations. By default, explanations are not printed. It is rec- ommended that ed scripts begin with this command to aid in debugging. h Prints an explanation of the last error. (.)i Inserts text in the buffer before the current line. Text is entered in input mode. The current address is set to the last line entered. (.,.+1)j Joins the addressed lines. The addressed lines are deleted from the buffer and replaced by a 21 May 1993 7 ED(1) ED(1) single line containing their joined text. The current address is set to the resultant line. (.)klc Marks a line with a lower case letter lc. The line can then be addressed as 'lc (i.e., a single quote followed by lc ) in subsequent commands. The mark is not cleared until the line is deleted or otherwise modified. (.,.)l Prints the addressed lines unambiguously. If a single line fills for than one screen (as might be the case when viewing a binary file, for instance), a `--More--' prompt is printed on the last line. ed waits until the RETURN key is pressed before displaying the next screen. The current address is set to the last line printed. (.,.)m(.) Moves lines in the buffer. The addressed lines are moved to after the right-hand destination address, which may be the address 0 (zero). The current address is set to the last line moved. (.,.)n Prints the addressed lines along with their line numbers. The current address is set to the last line printed. (.,.)p Prints the addressed lines. The current address is set to the last line printed. P Toggles the command prompt on and off. Unless a prompt was specified by with command-line option -p string, the command prompt is by default turned off. q Quits ed. Q Quits ed unconditionally. This is similar to the q command, except that unwritten changes are dis- carded without warning. ($)r file Reads file to after the addressed line. If file is not specified, then the default filename is used. If there was no default filename prior to the command, then the default filename is set to file. Otherwise, the default filename is unchanged. The current address is set to the last line read. ($)r !command Reads to after the addressed line the standard output of `!command', (see the !command below). The default filename is unchanged. The current 21 May 1993 8 ED(1) ED(1) address is set to the last line read. (.,.)s/re/replacement/ (.,.)s/re/replacement/g (.,.)s/re/replacement/n Replaces text in the addressed lines matching a regular expression re with replacement. By default, only the first match in each line is replaced. If the `g' (global) suffix is given, then every match to be replaced. The `n' suffix, where n is a postive number, causes only the nth match to be replaced. It is an error if no sub- stitutions are performed on any of the addressed lines. The current address is set the last line affected. re and replacement may be delimited by any charac- ter other than space and newline (see the `s' com- mand below). If one or two of the last delimiters is omitted, then the last line affected is printed as though the print suffix `p' were specified. An unescaped `&' in replacement is replaced by the currently matched text. The character sequence `\m', where m is a number in the range [1,9], is replaced by the mth backreference expression of the matched text. If replacement consists of a single `%', then replacement from the last substi- tution is used. Newlines may be embedded in replacement if they are escaped with a backslash (\). (.,.)s Repeats the last substitution. This form of the `s' command accepts a count suffix `n', or any combination of the characters `r', `g', and `p'. If a count suffix `n' is given, then only the nth match is replaced. The `r' suffix causes the reg- ular expression of the last search to be used instead of the that of the last substitution. The `g' suffix toggles the global suffix of the last substitution. The `p' suffix toggles the print suffix of the last substitution The current address is set to the last line affected. (.,.)t(.) Copies (i.e., transfers) the addressed lines to after the right-hand destination address, which may be the address 0 (zero). The current address is set to the last line copied. u Undoes the last command and restores the current address to what it was before the command. The global commands `g', `G', `v', and `V'. are 21 May 1993 9 ED(1) ED(1) treated as a single command by undo. `u' is its own inverse. (1,$)v/pat/command-list Applies command-list to each of the addressed lines not matching a regular expression re. This is similar to the `g' command. (1,$)V/re/ Interactively edits the addressed lines not match- ing a regular expression re. This is similar to the `G' command. (1,$)w file Writes the addressed lines to file. Any previous contents of file is lost without warning. If there is no default filename, then the default filename is set to file, otherwise it is unchanged. If no filename is specified, then the default filename is used. The current address is unchanged. (1,$)wq file Writes the addressed lines to file, and then exe- cutes a `q' command. (1,$)w !command Writes the addressed lines to the standard input of `!command', (see the !command below). The default filename and current address are unchanged. (1,$)W file Appends the addressed lines to the end of file. This is similar to the `w' command, expect that the previous contents of file is not clobbered. The current address is unchanged. x Prompts for an encryption key which is used in subsequent reads and writes. If a newline alone is entered as the key, then encryption is turned off. Otherwise, echoing is disabled while a key is read. Encryption/decryption is done using the bdes(1) algorithm. (.+1)zn Scrolls n lines at a time starting at addressed line. If n is not specified, then the current window size is used. The current address is set to the last line printed. !command Executes command via sh(1). If the first charac- ter of command is `!', then it is replaced by text of the previous `!command'. ed does not process 21 May 1993 10 ED(1) ED(1) command for backslash (\) escapes. However, an unescaped `%' is replaced by the default filename. When the shell returns from execution, a `!' is printed to the standard output. The current line is unchanged. ($)= Prints the line number of the addressed line. (.+1)newline Prints the addressed line, and sets the current address to that line. FILES /tmp/ed.* Buffer file ed.hup The file to which ed attempts to write the buffer if the terminal hangs up. SEE ALSO vi(1), sed(1), regex(3), bdes(1), sh(1). USD:12-13 B. W. Kernighan and P. J. Plauger, Software Tools in Pas- cal , Addison-Wesley, 1981. LIMITATIONS ed processes file arguments for backslash escapes, i.e., in a filename, any characters preceded by a backslash (\) are interpreted literally. If a text (non-binary) file is not terminated by a newline character, then ed appends one on reading/writing it. In the case of a binary file, ed does not append a newline on reading/writing. per line overhead: 4 ints DIAGNOSTICS When an error occurs, ed prints a `?' and either returns to command mode or exits if its input is from a script. An explanation of the last error can be printed with the `h' (help) command. Since the `g' (global) command masks any errors from failed searches and substitutions, it can be used to per- form conditional operations in scripts; e.g., g/old/s//new/ replaces any occurrences of old with new. If the `u' (undo) command occurs in a global command list, then the command list is executed only once. If diagnostics are not disabled, attempting to quit ed or 21 May 1993 11 ED(1) ED(1) edit another file before writing a modified buffer results in an error. If the command is entered a second time, it succeeds, but any changes to the buffer are lost. From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 11 14:52:22 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Ultrix root password Message-ID: <200204111952.AA05978@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > Subject: Re: Ultrix root password > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:10:33 -0400 (EDT) > In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kirby" at Apr 11, 2002 10:12:17 AM > > It was thus said that the Great Kris Kirby once stated: > > > > On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, ajp166 wrote: > > > Boot to non-timesharing then use ED (sorry no other choice usually) > > > to edit passwd file. set the Root user password to NULL (no characters). > > > boot to timeshare level and then log in as root with no password. > > > > For those of us "young'uns", would someone point me to a guide on "ED"? > > Isn't it like vi, only without being full screen, and without prompts? > > -spc (Or am I thinking of ex?) You are probably thinking of "ex". But "ed" is a proper subset of "ex". The classic answer to the question "point me to a guide" is $ man ed executed on any Unix or Unix-like system. If you don't have one of those running, you can try, with your favorite web browser, a Google search with the key words: unix man ed carl From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 11 14:59:26 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665B0@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CB5EB1E.736AEBCA@compsys.to> >"Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > >Does anyone else have copies of the RSX-11 set of 2 CDs? > At one point the RSX, TOPS and RT11 CDs > were all available as binary images. I know > I downloaded all of them and burned them to > CD with no problems. (Well, maybe a slight > issue with the RT11 one IIRC - I used W98 > and whatever burning software I used > was not too happy verifying it ... seemed > usable though). Jerome Fine replies: Are you saying the actual CD image was available as opposed to the many files that are on the CD? > Tim does not seem to have any problems > with people downloading large amounts > of data so rather than ask for a CD, just > burn one. > > Antonio I have the RT-11 CD sent from Tim Shoppa, so I am satisfied it is OK. BUT, I also want to burn my own CD in the same manner. ALSO using Windows 98 (Yeck). If anyone wants a copy, please ask! The RT-11 Freeware CD is composed of somewhat less than 212,992 sectors (of 2048 bytes each) which contain about 403 MBytes (Windows 98 Explorer says 21,223 files in 969 Directories using a total of 403,733,960 bytes) all contained under (if I have been told correctly) the ISO file structure for a CD. Starting at sector 212,992 on the CD, there are 114,688 sectors which hold 7 RT-11 partitions of 33,554,432 bytes each for a total of 234,881,024 bytes. These sectors can be accessed only by software which understands the RT-11 file structure, in particular programs such as PUTR, VMS Exchange and of course RT-11 itself. I can duplicate the above combination. I can copy files to a CD into an ISO file structure. I can also copy a file on the hard disk (which contains RT-11 files under the RT-11 file structure) to either a CD-R or a CD-RW starting at sector zero. BUT, Can anyone help me? I want to copy that same file to a CD-R or a CD-RW starting at sector 212,992 (just like Tim Shoppa did) after I have written the files to the CD under the ISO file structure. Of course, I want to be able to do this under Windows 98!! Does anyone know if that is even possible, let alone how it could be done? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 15:02:28 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Old flame wars (Re: GEM-OS) In-Reply-To: <3CB5D6D7.19304.518A1AD0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020411200228.24440.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans Franke wrote: > I guess we loved the system ... Maybe the Amiga/Atari wars > where nowhere else fought with the same vigilance than in > Germany ... Youd rather dumped your friends than admiting > that the other machine could be more worth than the dirt > under your nails. I have several friends from long ago that walked the other path (I will try to avoid fresh flames by not mentioning who liked what). We made a point of *not* discussing our favorite platforms with each other so we _didn't_ dump our friends, but yes; I remember when things were that intense. What made it more intense was that we were commercially involved with our respective platforms; it wasn't just a hobby to us, as it was with the most vehement flamers. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 11 15:03:12 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: >>Tim is providing support >>for a $ 10 Billion system of some sort which likely uses VMS. >It's not exaggerated, from what I know of the 'peripheral' attached to >those computers, if anything that's a bit low. Ok... I'll bite... what is that "peripheral"? Nukes or something? -chris From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 11 15:18:02 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:17 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards In-Reply-To: Gary Hildebrand "Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards" (Apr 11, 3:19) References: <3CB54724.2C25155E@ccp.com> Message-ID: <10204112118.ZM4213@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 3:19, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Happened to notice they are 10Base2 (BNC connector and AUI interface > (DB15). According to what little I've found on the web, there is an > adapter available that goes from the AUI DB15 to 10BaseT, so I can test > these out through a hub. > > Any comments? Well, assuming you really mean DA15 (not DB15 :-)) then, yes, all you need is a transceiver. The miniature type that fits straight onto the AUI connector is best, and usually cheap and easy to find. After that, it's just a question of having TCP/IP software. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 11 15:33:41 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665B4@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Ok... I'll bite... what is that "peripheral"? Nukes or something? Not sure I remember this correctly but I have a feeling it was something like the Washington metro - where obviously "Washington" is a code name for some plausible east coast city that actually does have a metro, just in case my memory is failing again :-) Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 11 15:59:58 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: RE: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. (Carlini, Antonio) References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665B4@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <15541.63822.97324.452876@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 11, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > >Ok... I'll bite... what is that "peripheral"? Nukes or something? > > Not sure I remember this correctly > but I have a feeling it was something like > the Washington metro - where obviously > "Washington" is a code name for > some plausible east coast city that > actually does have a metro, just > in case my memory is failing again :-) That would make sense...Washington DC does indeed have a Metro, and last I heard Tim lived in Bethesda, MD, which is right off the DC beltway. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 11 16:08:37 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665B6@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Are you saying the actual CD image was available as >opposed to the many files that are on the CD? Yes. Four images, one per CD. I don't know if they vanished during the site reorg or whether I just cannot find them right now. >satisfied it is OK. BUT, I also want to burn my own >CD in the same manner. ALSO using Windows 98 (Yeck). Burning under windows is probably not an issue - use something like CDR-Win to make an exact copy to an image file, and then burn that. >BUT, Can anyone help me? I want to copy that same file >to a CD-R or a CD-RW starting at sector 212,992 (just >like Tim Shoppa did) after I have written the files to the CD >under the ISO file structure. Of course, I want to be able >to do this under Windows 98!! Does anyone know if that is >even possible, let alone how it could be done? I don't know the specifics of RT-11s requirements for the CD. I expect that RT-11 sees it as though it were a hard disk of exactly that many blocks (well 4 times the number of CD blocks because of the 2048<->512 byte thing). Many (many) years ago when I used an LSI-11/23 under RT-11, we had a 40MB drive that emulated 4 RL02 drives (or some such). I don't recall if this was done in software or hardware - quite possibly it was a software driver that came with the disk. Why is 212992 magic? What do you do to make this CD visible as 7 (or whatever) disks under RT-11? Essentially your CD is a stream of N 2048 blocks and is presumably seen by RT-11 as such (at a sufficiently low level) and then given meaning by some software layer. A typical method for generating a layout with both ISO and "other stuff" in logically separate areas of the CD would be to start by generating a binary ISO-format file with just the ISO data in. The first 64 2048-byte blocks (or is it 32?) are ignored by the ISO9660 standard - they are deliberately not used. Now create an empty image file, the size of your CD. Overlay the ISO image file onto this. Now you slip the PDP-11 boot block in there and add whatever else you need at the end in whatever format you want. The ISO file structure will be unaffected (so long as you tack things on after its logical end). What you need to find out is RT-11s requirements in this area. Actually doing this under W98 may not be that easy. Typically, when I've done CDs that have both ISO9660 and ODS-2 on them, I've generated the image on OpenVMS and burned the image to CD using a PC. Antonio From thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de Thu Apr 11 16:10:17 2002 From: thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002001c1e0e7$31d69c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 10-Apr-2002 Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, my recollection may be different from that of others simply because of > when it was formed, but back in the '70's, when bit-slice was becoming quite > popular as a means for creating a computer from hardware of various sorts, > the notion of microcode was used to describe the code for the particular > bit-slice > family, often the AMD 2900 series, that was used to create a specific design. > Each instruction in the set attributed to the final target system was > implemented in some number of more simple instructions for the bit-slice > engine. Looks like we where talking about only similar things with the same name. I don't know the AMD2900 series, my definition of microcode was formed back in 1999 in a lecture about gate-level-design... ;-) And it isn't too exotic either (according to Roger Ivie's mail it was used in the Design of the Firefox QBUS Adapter) But I'm quite sure the purpose of the microcode was very similar. What I think I found out (please correct me if I'm wrong): The AMD2900 series provided small building-blocks for CPU design (such as ALUs and stuff). The "bit-slice-engine" you mentioned was the "Control Unit" of the so assembled processor. This "Control Unit" was programmed in a language you refer to as "microcode". Microcode-machines like those Roger and I posted to this list are almost exclusively used as "Control Units". You think of a specific Microcode-Machine with a well defined Microcode-Language and probably very sophisticated tools. If that's true we talked about basically the same thing. (just in different languages) ;-) bye Thilo From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Apr 11 16:14:04 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: GEM-OS In-Reply-To: <3CB5D6D7.19304.518A1AD0@localhost> References: <3CB4D5DF.21735.1BEFDAE@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB5B64C.612.52BC8D7@localhost> > > Badly put. I do know better. > > ??? > I was referring to my GEM runs on top of Tos statement. > > A lot of the later mods for the ST were really > > interesting too. Geneva, Magic and Terradisk come to mind. There was a lot of > > development that came out of Germany for the ST. > > Jep. And before that nice things like KAOS, a complete > rewritten TOS with way less errors and dammed higher > performancs - some desktop apps where running 10 to 50 > percent faster due the great improvements within the AES. > In fact, it was a complete reengeniered and redone GEM. I have it on disk somewhere among my ST stuff. I think I had some problems with it. Another was called "Thing" if I remember correctly. > The other grat product would be NVDI - a replacement for > the VDI (virtual device Interface). while still keeping > all functionality, some drawing operations where speed > up 20 times - a average speedup of another 5 to 30 percent, > depending on the graphic workload was possible. Using > KAOS and NVDI let applications on a 8 MHz original ST > feel/run almost as fast as on a 16 MHz Mega STE. > I have NVDI. I"ll have to retry KAOS once I get my Marpett memory board problems straightened out. Is anyone still supplying memory expansion boards for the ST ? > I guess we loved the system ... Maybe the Amiga/Atari wars > where nowhere else fought with the same vigilance than in > Germany ... Youd rather dumped your friends than admiting > that the other machine could be more worth than the dirt > under your nails. > It still is my favorite system even tho I've never had a model newer than the STFM. Visions of sugarplum STE, Mega, TT and Falcons dance in my head. Never mind a Milan fantasy. Like Amigas, STs hold their value very well. Old STers hang onto them and newer fans snatch up the favored models. They're just so much more fun than most of the crap out there. > Gruss > H. > > (It took me years until I was ready not only to own an > Amiga, but also have fun playing with it.) > Bizarrely enough, I have Amiga models Ik, 2k, and well- peripheralled 3k, acquired cheaply at thifts mainly, but none of the upper ST models and refuse to pay the inflated EPay prices. I must admit I am weakening tho. still > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 11 16:27:07 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665B9@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Why is 212992 magic? OK. I'm an idiot :-) RT-11 has a limit on disk size, and my (poor) recollection is that this might be in the region of 64K blocks (512 byte block ... i.e. 16MB per disk). This would be 16384 2048-byte sectors. 13*16384=212992. So my guess is that when you use this RT-11 CD on an RT-11 system, you tell it to map partition 13 (and 14 etc. onwards to the end). In which case writing an image would be a breeze. Create your ISO file system as a binary (ISO9660) image file and overlay onto an image of a full 650MB or 700MB CD. Create images of however many RT-11 "disks" you think you can fit onto the end. Determine where the next 16384 2048-byte boundary is and drop your first RT-11 partition there, then keep overlaying further partitions until the end. OK. I don't know how to do this on Windows 98 with the available tools, so you'll either have to do it on Unix (or OpenVMS) or knock up a quick tool in C for Windows. Or you could ask Tim how he did it (but I bet W98 was *not* part of the answer!). Antonio From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Thu Apr 11 16:19:47 2002 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) Message-ID: > > Hi All, > > I just talked to Eric Smith and he's going to be visiting this area >(Orlando) around May 17 or 18. I thought it might be a good time for >another Junk Feast. Let me know if you're interested. > > Joe I can probably make it. I'll let you know when the date gets nearer. SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 11 16:34:12 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665BA@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> I found the images too: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images All still there. There seems to be a new CP/M one there too (judging by the filename). Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 11 16:44:17 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: DC Metro (was: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: <15541.63822.97324.452876@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > That would make sense...Washington DC does indeed have a Metro, and > last I heard Tim lived in Bethesda, MD, which is right off the DC > beltway. The Metro does make it out to some parts of Bethesda. To tie this in with a previous thread (John Draper),... Metro is almost identical to the an Francisco BART. Close enough that the magstripe tickets are interchangeable. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 11 16:51:21 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?) In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: DEC SDI drives (was Re: should I take RM03's ?)" (Apr 11, 11:17) References: <200204111517.g3BFHHJ2012929@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <10204112251.ZM4270@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 11, 11:17, Bill Pechter wrote: > Never saw an RA80 in the field... > > I'm not sure they ever shipped. Several resellers list them, and at least a couple of sites list them as having been in use. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 11 17:08:39 2002 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) References: <3.0.6.32.20020411145922.007c73f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CB60967.9EAF1645@bellsouth.net> Joe wrote: > > Hi All, > > I just talked to Eric Smith and he's going to be visiting this area (Orlando) around May 17 or 18. I thought it might be a good time for another Junk Feast. Let me know if you're interested. > > Joe Yes, I had to miss the last one because of the change in the date. I'm sure I can round up some old DEC parts and maybe a few other goodies. -- Doug Carman pdp11 at bellsouth dot net From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 11 17:14:27 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: DC Metro (was: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > That would make sense...Washington DC does indeed have a Metro, and >> last I heard Tim lived in Bethesda, MD, which is right off the DC >> beltway. > >The Metro does make it out to some parts of Bethesda. Tim does live outside of Bethesda and one of the major metro lines does go up through Bethesda. I'd guess that a lot of the people that live in his area probably don't use it much though as it's a pretty nice area and the closest metro stop is likely to be far enough away to be at least a pain to use regularly. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 11 17:40:33 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: DC Metro (was: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Apr 11, 2002 06:14:27 PM Message-ID: <200204112240.g3BMeXU03790@shell1.aracnet.com> > Tim does live outside of Bethesda and one of the major metro > lines does go up through Bethesda. I'd guess that a lot of the > people that live in his area probably don't use it much though as > it's a pretty nice area and the closest metro stop is likely to be > far enough away to be at least a pain to use regularly. That's one cool station! As I recall it's something like 10 stories underground! That makes for one MAJOR escelator ride! There used to be an Egghead store a few blocks from the station. I've still got the 14.4k Practical Peripherals external Modem I bought there 10 years ago. I purchased it so I could download Linux software (which I'd been running for a few months) faster. Geez, it just hit me, that means that I've finally passed the 10 year mark for Internet usage (yes, I realize I've not been online as long as a lot of people here). Zane From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 11 17:43:48 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > > > > Erasable would not be feasable, other than manual recreation. > > > Why not use reed relay switches with a hidden magnets behind them, > > slighty smoked to look like fuses. > > I thought about using relays -- wouldn't that make it a RAM, or do > these relays stick somehow when there's no power? You could use latching relays, but they average about two to three times the cost of regular relays. I don't think I'd rely on them to hold their state forever, either. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 11 17:47:50 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Fuse PROM (was:: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843DC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > > > How about using circuit breakers? > > Then you would have a manually erasable PROM, without further > > expenditure > > each time that you program it. > > Ok, that's something I hadn't thought of. :) A couple things to keep in mind about circuit breakers... Circuit breakers are only good for a certain number of trips before they fail, and the overall cost of the number of required devices might be somewhat prohibitive. -Toth From rfallaw at marketorder.com Thu Apr 11 18:07:40 2002 From: rfallaw at marketorder.com (Rose Fallaw) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: NEC Multispeed boot error... what now? Message-ID: I am hoping you can send me in the right direction for restoring this very old laptop that my father gave me. It is posting a message that reads as follows: Fixed disk setup (1701) incomplete. Trying to boot from A drive: Warning!! Fixed Disk Controller is bad or Low Power, Can not boot up from fixed disk, insert system disk drive A or B... Press any key when ready.... What precisely do I need to look for when getting a system disk for this computer? It didn't have anything in the original bag it came with. The screen reads as follows when I turn on the computer: Phoenix ROM BIOS Version 2.51 Copyright (c) 1984,1985,1986 Phoenix Technologies, Inc. NEC Multispeed Please offer any guidance you may have! Thanks for you time! Rose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020411/98a28c5e/attachment.html From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 11 18:32:25 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: BLAME WHO????????? (Warning: Possible Humor) References: <3.0.6.32.20020411140908.008a55f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006b01c1e1b1$2391c020$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore One thing to consider is that the negatives as you see them represent the portion of the population that the media finds newsworthy for entertainment purposes. In actual numbers, these cases may represent less than 1% of the population. There are other defences too. Heck, I go to church and with the recent news the only story I can dig up is that the pastor for my father when he was growing up may have had a girlfriend. Good thing; Dad was an altarboy. John A. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 18:41:31 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <1018532031.12263.14.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On 11 Apr 2002, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I spent $25 for my A2500 (no keyboard, mouse, or monitor), so I think > its a reasonable price. You can chuck any SCSI drive into it so that's > not a problem. > > I found someone on the net who sold me an amiga keyboard for $30, but > $65 seems to be the going price. I have no idea on mice, I happened to > have one. OUCH!!! Mebbe I _don't_ want an Amiga after all..... Doc From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 11 18:56:37 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions References: Message-ID: <01b801c1e1b4$8579cf00$d6000240@default> Keyboards show at thrift's for around $3.99 and mice for $1.99, just need a little cleaning most of the time. Computerworks there in Austin sale their KB's for $3.98 also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 2500 questions > On 11 Apr 2002, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > I spent $25 for my A2500 (no keyboard, mouse, or monitor), so I think > > its a reasonable price. You can chuck any SCSI drive into it so that's > > not a problem. > > > > I found someone on the net who sold me an amiga keyboard for $30, but > > $65 seems to be the going price. I have no idea on mice, I happened to > > have one. > > OUCH!!! > > Mebbe I _don't_ want an Amiga after all..... > > Doc > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 19:35:03 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa In-Reply-To: <000701c1e17d$2c40f260$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > He does seem to find time to post here and there, but a > monk's got to have some pleasures in life... He seems to follow, and participate in, comp.sys.dec pretty consistently. Doc From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 11 19:52:25 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <3CB5E69A.F3C7ACAE@ccp.com> from Gary Hildebrand at "Apr 11, 2 02:40:10 pm" Message-ID: <200204120052.RAA19112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Now if they continue on in the Commodore tradition, it will either sell > like hotcakes and they will keep cutting the prices until there is one > in every garage and yard sale. And of course there will be NO hardware > or software support of any kind. A massive cult following will > continue interest long after the corporation goes bankrupt on a yearly > basis. Ah, but Commodore isn't making it. A homebrew user is. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Jesus at a disco: "Help! I've risen and I can't get down!" ----------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 11 19:59:47 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <3CB59908.7C56CDBA@ccp.com> from Gary Hildebrand at "Apr 11, 2 09:09:12 am" Message-ID: <200204120059.RAA28496@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > You need an Amiga keyboard, or an adapter box for the keyboard. The > > mouse should be the same as used on the C128, c64? > > Sorry, they look similar, but the 8 bit Commodores used a 1350 mouse, > and the Amiga is a 1351. AFAIK, they are NOT interchangeable. Close :-) the 1350 and 1351 are *both* Commodore 8-bit mice. The 1350 is a non-proportional joystick emulation mode mouse, and the 1351 is a true proportional, with a 1350 emulation mode built-in. I forget the designation for the Amiga mouse, but it isn't the 1351 or 1350; you are correct in that none of the 8-bit mice work on the Amiga. But the joysticks will! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 18:45:32 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <006001c1e0f1$bf8e51c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 2 06:42:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/3bfd001c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:21:59 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB4ED7E.49CA265F@nktelco.net> from "Chuck Dickman" at Apr 10, 2 09:57:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/61c3f3fb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:26:25 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Gould 9540 PSU In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Apr 11, 2 00:01:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1406 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/ed19d8c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:01:07 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 10, 2 07:56:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4130 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/559b7db6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:32:25 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Power supplies In-Reply-To: from "pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com" at Apr 10, 2 11:59:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2236 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/68b4221e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:34:16 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: <002701c1e11b$bb30f900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 2 11:42:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/1c35a60d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:43:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002d01c1e11d$3ca60920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 2 11:53:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/f0a5bff5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 19:48:12 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <20020411093043.A49684@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> from "Thilo Schmidt" at Apr 11, 2 09:30:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/b33dd506/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 20:05:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: from "Thilo Schmidt" at Apr 11, 2 11:10:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/4a384d34/attachment.ksh From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 20:44:42 2002 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 Message-ID: <20020411214442.A14562@spies.com> Where did the time go?! This year's Trenton Computer Fest is coming up on May 4 and 5. More info at http://www.tcf-nj.org/ Be there *and* be square. :) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 14:57:39 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 In-Reply-To: <3CB5D568.9F153A3D@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20020411195739.36812.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > With regard to RT-11, I have a request - does anyone think it > is worthwhile to keep track of and have a centralized location > which records as many of the current RT-11 bugs as possible? I am not a current RT-11 user (I used to make my living with it about 14 years ago and I still have it sitting around the house), but I am interested in anything that improves it. I have no bugs to share, but I would love to go to a central place to see what's wrong, should I ever start playing with RT-11 again. If someone else is willing to do the collection and list maintenance, I may eventually become a consumer of the data, but it's not in my face enough to be a contributor at this time. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 19:14:19 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <01b801c1e1b4$8579cf00$d6000240@default> Message-ID: <20020412001419.69556.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > Keyboards show at thrift's for around $3.99 and mice for $1.99, just > need a little cleaning most of the time. Computerworks there in Austin > sale their KB's for $3.98 also. I need to live in _your_ town. I've never seen one spec of Amiga hardware in Columbus. Plenty of Apple II and Mac stuff, always PeeCee stuff, never anything else. No Amiga. No C-64. No Atari. Wait... not true... I got an Amiga mouse *once* in a 3 cu. ft box of misc cables and stuff for $5. That was it, though. Seriously, I think they get it in, but it never reaches the sales floor because they don't understand it. I have about 80% as many keyboards as Amigas. I'd love a couple more. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 21:01:25 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 philip@awale.qc.ca wrote: > > Sorry... I was thinking how to make image files from files in a > > filesystem, > > not how to make image files from a real CD-ROM. > > > > dd is what you want, but the parameters may vary if the disc is not > > a boring ISO-9660 type. > > I doubt bs has any affect. Blocksize is actually very critical in imaging any but ISO9660, or native-to-the-host-os filesystems. Try doing a dd image of an AIX mkcd bootable backup cd with a blocksize of 512 (which is the default if bs is not specified). I'll grant that I should have specified bs=.... Doc From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 11 21:04:24 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The point is, I can't see a real difference between a ROM chip and a > > > decoder + gates. Electronically they're much the same thing. Physically, > > > to change the program, I have to use a soldering iron. It is _not_ clear > > > to me why one is called firmware and the other called hardware. > > > > > A ROM chip doesn' have firmware, since it's hard-wired at the factory. A > > Are you saying that a program in a mask programmed ROM is not firmware? > Because everybody else that I know would call it that. > > > PROM/EPROM/EEPROM, PAL/GAL, CPLD, FPGA or whatever, that you can program to > > suit your own definition, falls in a different class. A RAM, which doesn't > > retain that definition between power-on cycles, falls into a different > > category. > > And where do you put core memory? Or core-on-a-rope? :-) > > > The distinction between hardware and firmware is in that you can't tell from > > looking at the part as you buy it, what it's going to be. If you buy a 7474, > > That's a dubious definition at best.... > > If I buy a 7474, then I know it's going to be 2 d-type ff's. But I can > choose to use those as 2 bits of an register on a CPU I want to build, or > as a /4 clock divider, or to do the handshake for a centronics input > port, or... Or 1/2 as an inverter for an xtal oscillator and 1/2 for div/2 (had to do that one to avoid using 1 more package) > > If I buy a PROM, then again I know it's going to store (say) 256 4 bit > words. But I can use those as a tiny bit of microcode, or as the feedback > logic for a state machine, or whatever... > > -tony > > Peter Wallace From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 21:06:00 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Anyone know... In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843E5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > is "bad" (scratched, or what not), a smaller block size (1 ;) may > help you get more good data at the expense of some speed. You That's an exercise in understatement if I ever heard one. > can also use the conv=noerror option to ignore read errors if you > really want whatever data you can get. Um, I've not been successful with that option in Linux or in NetBSD. I've tried it reading from damaged tape and from damaged CD media. dd will keep trying... to read the same unreadable block. If I missed the way around that, I'd really like to know. Doc From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Thu Apr 11 21:20:05 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? References: <20020411214442.A14562@spies.com> Message-ID: <001d01c1e1c8$939663a0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to put the boards in an 11/34c? Someone gave me a working 11/34a. It boots RT-11. I want to add the cache and floating point boards. I've never had my hands on a UNIBUS machine before. I did some web searching, and found a series of messages from when Megan did something similar, but it would be nice to find this info all in one place. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl@safeaccess.com "The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 21:32:02 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <20020412001419.69556.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > > Keyboards show at thrift's for around $3.99 and mice for $1.99, just > > need a little cleaning most of the time. Computerworks there in Austin > > sale their KB's for $3.98 also. > > I need to live in _your_ town. I've never seen one spec of Amiga > hardware in Columbus. Plenty of Apple II and Mac stuff, always PeeCee > stuff, never anything else. No Amiga. No C-64. No Atari. Um, not the Goodwill ComputerWorks *I* know & despise. They sell PC keyboards for $5+. Anything that says Commodore or Apple gets jacked through the roof. Lately, it just never makes it to the sales floor. Yes, I'm pretty grumpy about that. However, my collection is thriving in spite of GCW. I just miss the museum. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 21:35:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Any interest in ROM 00 Apple IIgs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Rich Beaudry wrote: > I got these (along with several "ROM 01" and "Rom 00 upgraded to Rom 01" > IIgs machines) from a local school. I would like to save them from the > dump, and help the school out as well. Therefore, I will take offers on > these machines until Thursday 04/11, 11:59PM Eastern US time. ANY AND ALL > proceeds will be donated back to the school the computers came from. I > will separately notify the highest bidders that they have won.... I don't want one, but I do think that what you're doing is quite cool. Good job! Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 21:35:33 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843CB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > For what it's worth, you can get them refurbished from Plextor, > supposedly, for about US$95 for a SCSI cd-rw of some sort. That's > probably the best price I've found on them. The only reason I didn't > get one instead of the Sony drive I finally settled on was that they > didn't answer my email, and I really didn't feel like playing telephone > games trying to find the right number ;) That's a darn good reason not to buy _anything_, in my world. But I do like Plextor readers. They're much faster in large reads than equally-rated other brands, and they seem to get a better sound out of music CDs. Plus, they'll boot darned near anything. Doc From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 11 21:41:02 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Reminder(s)... References: <20020411214442.A14562@spies.com> Message-ID: <028c01c1e1cb$7d1abec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Let's add to that RCS/RI open house on April 20, 2002 will feature the 11/34,44 running RSX-11M,RSTS. http://www.osfn.org/rcs/topics.shtml The Flea at MIT Next Swapfest is April 21 2002 http://web.mit.edu/w1mx/www/swapfest.html > This year's Trenton Computer Fest is coming up on May 4 and 5. > More info at http://www.tcf-nj.org/ > Be there *and* be square. John A. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 21:44:45 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. Message-ID: Does anyone have the pinout for the db25 console port? Assuming that the 25-pin bulkhead connector marked "Console" is a serial console port? Also, I understand that a M8981-AA is a 2M board and a -BA is a 4M board. How do I find out which? This one just shows M8981 with no suffix, and "KDJ11-E CPU" on the processor side. It is without a doubt the prettiest processor chip I've ever seen. Doc, trying VERY hard not to brag or gloat. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 11 21:46:14 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <200204120052.RAA19112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3CB64A76.E596BF8@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Ah, but Commodore isn't making it. A homebrew user is. The 24 bit adressing is the big problem,with 32+ bit addressing common now days.If your goal is fast 6502 C-64 stuff that a great machine. If the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype quantities. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 11 21:53:28 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? References: <20020411214442.A14562@spies.com> <001d01c1e1c8$939663a0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <02a401c1e1cd$398ef520$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to > put the boards in an 11/34c? I have yet to find the definitive 11/34 page. You might want to look at the links on this page http://www.vaxarchive.org/pdp11/index.html there's a few... > Someone gave me a working 11/34a. It boots RT-11. You is lucky! John A From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 11 21:57:28 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? In-Reply-To: from "Jonathan Engdahl" at Apr 11, 2002 10:20:05 PM Message-ID: <200204120257.g3C2vS114650@shell1.aracnet.com> > Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to > put the boards in an 11/34c? Someone gave me a working 11/34a. > It boots RT-11. I want to add the cache and floating point > boards. I've never had my hands on a UNIBUS machine before. Potentially stupid question, but isn't this still a PDP-11/34a? Is there such a thing as a PDP-11/34c? One place you might want to start is the PDP-11/34 User Manual at: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp11/ Zane From vaxman at earthlink.net Thu Apr 11 22:09:38 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Doc, I have a pair of SI 9900 controllers that I THINK will work with your QBus board. They are rack mount drawers about 4" high with boards and stuff in them. I believe they are complete, they were closed with the screws installed, but I don't have an interface card for them. Actually, I may have a pair of QBus cards that will drive them, but they are connected to another pair of SI boxes with controllers inside. I also have documentation for the QDA50E which I believe to be the QBus version of the 9900 and software drivers and formatters on TK50 for the same. If you are interested in these, let me know, and I'll figure out the shipping (or you can pick them up next time you come through Denver). Regards, Clint On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > Unidentified Quad-Height Board: > System Industries > 9901-6082-a > Date Code 621 > > stencilled on the back -- 61907 113 > > It has 2 40-pin connectors, 2 8-switch DIP banks and 1 4-switch bank, > and 4 AMD 18-pin chips - AM2905PC / 8335DKP > Lots and lots of 20-pin doohickeys - AM2908PC / 8512DMP > And some Motorola 20-pin thingies - SN4LS244N / I8709BD > Socketed 28-pin EPROMs, I think, with label attached: > 9900-8954 > 9900-8955 > 9900-8956 > Socketted smaller 20-pin ICs with labels: > 9900-8953 > 9900-8957 > 9900-8958 > 9900-8959 > 9900-8960 > 9900-8961 > 9900-8962 > 9900-8963 > 9900-8964 > 9900-8965 > 9900-8967 > 9900-8968 > 9900-8969 > 9900-8970 > 9900-8971A > 9900-8972A > 9900-8970 > > There are other components, but maybe that's enough. > > I can't find any reference at all online. Does anyone have a clue? > > Doc > > > From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 11 22:17:37 2002 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Sun IPC Keyb/Mouse References: <1018479091.2492.8.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <3CB651D1.815041CE@bellsouth.net> Alex White wrote: > > My SO has reminded me to ask if any of you have keyboards and mice going > spare which would work with her Sun IPC, or a lead on a > surplus/second-hand supplier for these, in the UK ;) > > Thanks for putting up with me > Alex The IPC can use a normal type 5 or 6 keyboard from any recent Sun system except the USB keyboards being used with SunBlade and other new systems. I used a spare type 5c keyboard and mouse with my IPC. As long as it is a Sun keyboard with a mini DIN connector, you should be able to use it on the IPC. -- Doug Carman pdp11 at bellsouth dot net From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 11 22:33:09 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:18 2005 Subject: Amiga A2065 Ethernet cards In-Reply-To: <3CB5B794.5050906@texoma.net> from "James L. Rice" at "Apr 11, 2002 11:19:32 am" Message-ID: <200204120333.g3C3XCL6000788@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Digi makes a media converter to bridge between 10B2 and 10BT. They show > > up at suplus shops for a couple of bucks. > > James > I find it's easier to pick up a cheap 10BaseT hub which has the BNC for Thinnet... and If I need to hook to something with vampire taps I can go with the N to BNC adapter on the cable end... Bill From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 11 22:55:09 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > Actually, I may have a pair of QBus cards that will drive them, > but they are connected to another pair of SI boxes with > controllers inside. I also have documentation for the QDA50E > which I believe to be the QBus version of the 9900 and software > drivers and formatters on TK50 for the same. > > If you are interested in these, let me know, and I'll figure out > the shipping (or you can pick them up next time you come through > Denver). Clint, Thanks for the offer, and the information! Would you rather have the cards? I'd like to see it be a working set, but it's not important to me that it happens on my machine. I'm guessing that, after shipping the drive drawers, the $$/MB ratio would be brutal. Sending you the Qbus cards probably makes more sense. Or, probably, somebody will chime in that needs it and can afford the shipping. :^) Doc From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Apr 11 22:58:46 2002 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The story continues on an old Diablo 3200. I finally got to see it last weekend and it looks like I'll be allowed to borrow it in order to attempt some restoration. The owners would like to run some sort of simple database on it for registration purposes. Long shot but it sure beats their first idea of stripping the guts out and replaceing the insides with a PC... Should be able to pick it up (with a little help from my friends) this weekend. George Rachor Hillsboro Oregon ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 14 May 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > > > Stay of execution on this Diablo 3200..... > > > > We have bought a bit of time as my wife has convinced them not to hack it > > up until I get to see this critter. > > Cool! > > > Obviously we have no software for the machine and I'm assuming you don't > > either. > > Actually, I do. I got the original OS disks as well as a bunch of > floppies with various bits of accounting type software and useless data. > > > The computer recycler has agreed not to remove the original components > > until it can be determined if the box is usuable in some rudimentry > > function as is. (They were going to gut the original components and > > replace the guts with something more modern). > > Silly. Were they planning to use the same CRT and keyboard? I don't know > how. If all they wanted was a nice desk for a computer then maybe they > should go to Office Depot? > > > Now the challenge is to find software that might boot the machine up. > > I can make copies for you. Mine supposedly boots. > > Here is a picture of mine. > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Diablo%203200.jpg > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Apr 11 23:24:49 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed Message-ID: I've been doing some web searching and reading the "TV Typewriter" book concerning puched tape encoding schemes, and I'm a bit confused. I've written a program to punch tape on my PC, and a short bit of code to read the tapes on my IMSAI 8080, but there are some problems. Since the unpunched tape leader looks just like a "zero" to the tape reader, I usually end up with some extra 0's at the start of my programs on the IMSAI. Also, I have a feeling that the tape reader may "eat" some of the codes if they're things like X-ON, X-OFF, etc, although I may be wrong. If I'm going to do something along the lines of using two 4-bit values to represent each byte, or an escape code to distinguish real 0's from leading blanks, and maybe include a full-width (FF) punch every foot or so to allow for easy folding, while having the reader software ignore them, I'd like to follow some kind of established standard. Can anyone give me any pointers on this? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Thu Apr 11 23:40:26 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: <20020410005646.GU26665@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Bill Bradford wrote: > Please contact Darren directly if interested in this system; he would like > it to go to a good home. > > Bill > > ----- Forwarded message from Darren Harrison ----- > > From: "Darren Harrison" > To: "Bill Bradford" > Subject: Re: vax micro computer > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:54:31 +1000 > > Thanks Bill, > > It is a Digital MicroVAX 3100-80 with a storage expansion. Both are SCSI > compatible and the storage expansion also has a 9 track port. > > VAX 3100-80 > Model No. -470ZM-B9-A01 > SN - KA236W6545 > > Storage expansion > Model No. - SZ12J-JA > SN - AB23403IHO > > I did notice you were in Austin, TX. > The VAX and I are in Melbourne, Australia. Hope this doesn't cause any > problems. > okay I live in melbourne and this one seemed too good to pass up, so basically I have got the machine, need to fix the system password, but I have some documantation on how to do that so no real problems there... Okay what It came with The machine as listed abouve, including all of the leads, so I have no hassles connecting up a terminal as it came with the mmj serial line. A vt440 and a huge old laser printer. But the big thing is that when I spoke to darren about th machine, he said that it came with all of its manuals. when he said all he wasn't kidding, I am still sorting out the 5 boxes or so of folders and manuals there are heaps, programmer refernce manuals all sorts of manuals I will provide a good list when I have finished sorting everything out... So a good find.... And one I never thought I would see here, it allways seems that the free stuff is allways in the USA... Joy Benjamin Gardiner From sloboyko at yahoo.com Thu Apr 11 23:59:02 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020412045902.28608.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> You could look at Motorola .S19 files or Intel Hex files. Both have a lot more overhead than pure binary but they will definitely solve your problems at the beginning and end of the tape. I'm certain that someone has already written this and I think I have an example in an old Byte maganize. I wrote a binary to Moto S19 and binary to Intel Hex in VB not because no one had ever done it before, but so that I was sure I understood them. I am in a similar situation; I've been thinking about a short bootloader you key in that reads the first 64/128/256 bytes of the paper tape starting with the first nonzero byte (you code it this way), and then executes it. This code is the .s19/Intel Hex loader (which is going to be much more complex). Then, you load your stuff in .s19/Intel Hex. Both code chunx could be on the same tape, theoretically. This, too, has been done before. BTW, I'm working on the Hazeltine. The keytops were actually PUTTY, not BROWN! I had to polish them individually with sandpaper and car rubbing compound but they now look new. Haven't started on the electronics but am confident that I can do it. --- Bill Richman wrote: > I've been doing some web searching and reading the > "TV Typewriter" > book concerning puched tape encoding schemes, and > I'm a bit confused. > I've written a program to punch tape on my PC, and a > short bit of code > to read the tapes on my IMSAI 8080, but there are > some problems. > Since the unpunched tape leader looks just like a > "zero" to the tape > reader, I usually end up with some extra 0's at the > start of my > programs on the IMSAI. Also, I have a feeling that > the tape reader > may "eat" some of the codes if they're things like > X-ON, X-OFF, etc, > although I may be wrong. If I'm going to do > something along the lines > of using two 4-bit values to represent each byte, or > an escape code to > distinguish real 0's from leading blanks, and maybe > include a > full-width (FF) punch every foot or so to allow for > easy folding, > while having the reader software ignore them, I'd > like to follow some > kind of established standard. Can anyone give me > any pointers on > this? > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer > Simulator, Fun with > Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and > Technological Oddities. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From mythtech at mac.com Fri Apr 12 00:05:12 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 Message-ID: >This year's Trenton Computer Fest is coming up on May 4 and 5. >More info at http://www.tcf-nj.org/ OMG... I was just smacking myself on the head about this earlier. I have been hanging onto a previous email from a few months ago that mentioned this fest. I just the other day accidentally deleted it (and of course, since my email client removes anything older than 30 days from my deleted folder, it prompty purged the email). What wonderful timing for you to post the reminder... THANKS! (now, does anyone know if the Trenton DMV is anywhere near the fest grounds? Maybe I can transfer my fire department's trailer registrations to NF while I am down there so we can stop paying reg fees every year) -chris From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 12 00:17:50 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Any interest in ROM 00 Apple IIgs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411221714.031e7080@mail.zipcon.net> I'd be interested in a cpu and a disk or two if you haven't junked them, I can't offer much tho, (unemployed and in school on worker retraining) :( At 07:58 PM 4/10/02 +0000, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I have in my posession, three tested, working, Rom 00 Apple IIgs machines, >complete with monitor, 3.5" and 5.25" floppies, keyboards, and mice. I am >wondering if anyone would like them, for a nominal price + shipping. > >Before anyone misunderstands me, I am not asking for tons of money for >these beasts, as I realize they're pretty crippled (They had defective >video chips, and the ROM version doesn't allow you to run GS/OS). They do >run most Apple IIe sowftware, and could be considered as an accelerated IIe. >Not the best example of a IIgs, however, if you are looking for a machine >to complete your collection, they are available. Note that NONE of them >are the "Woz" variant. > >I got these (along with several "ROM 01" and "Rom 00 upgraded to Rom 01" >IIgs machines) from a local school. I would like to save them from the >dump, and help the school out as well. Therefore, I will take offers on >these machines until Thursday 04/11, 11:59PM Eastern US time. ANY AND ALL >proceeds will be donated back to the school the computers came from. I >will separately notify the highest bidders that they have won.... > >Your chance to own a small part of Apple II history, and help out a local >school as well.. > >I will ship anywhere, worldwide, that the US Postal Service allows me to >ship, and I will consider shipping just a CPU (i.e., no monitor, or no >drives, or whatever combination you want), as it will cut down on >shipping... The units will be shipped from US ZIP code 01473, and to give >you an idea, a monitor weighs about 25 lbs boxed, and a CPU weighs (I >think) 8 lbs. boxed... I will quote actual weights and shipping charges to >anyone who asks.... > >Thanks! > >Rich B. > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 00:18:07 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001001c1e1e1$6eb177a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 5:45 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > The point is, I can't see a real difference between a ROM chip and a > > > decoder + gates. Electronically they're much the same thing. Physically, > > > to change the program, I have to use a soldering iron. It is _not_ clear > > > to me why one is called firmware and the other called hardware. > > > > > A ROM chip doesn' have firmware, since it's hard-wired at the factory. A > > Are you saying that a program in a mask programmed ROM is not firmware? > Because everybody else that I know would call it that. > There are many who would disagree with them, Tony. One characteristic common to all definitions I've run into in firmware is that it's FIELD-Programmable. Another is that it's non-volatile, i.e. persists between power cycles. > > > PROM/EPROM/EEPROM, PAL/GAL, CPLD, FPGA or whatever, that you can program to > > suit your own definition, falls in a different class. A RAM, which doesn't > > retain that definition between power-on cycles, falls into a different > > category. > > And where do you put core memory? Or core-on-a-rope? :-) > I do believe the obsolescence of core and plated-wire memory predates EPROMS and certainly EEPROMS, but although cores and PW were capable of persisting from one power cycle to another, there were other issues with it. As for where to put it, if you don't need the stuff, I'd put it in the junk bin I keep in a remote corner of the basement. That's where my core boards are. > > > The distinction between hardware and firmware is in that you can't tell from > > looking at the part as you buy it, what it's going to be. If you buy a 7474, > > That's a dubious definition at best.... > > If I buy a 7474, then I know it's going to be 2 d-type ff's. But I can > choose to use those as 2 bits of an register on a CPU I want to build, or > as a /4 clock divider, or to do the handshake for a centronics input > port, or... > No matter how you apply it, it's still a 7474, which, since you can touch it, is clearly hardware, and nothing you do will change that. If you buy a 74S287, it's a 256-nybble tristate PROM, which is, and always will be, hardware. What you put in it is firmware, and it remains firmware whether you use it in a state machine or as part of the code in a computer system. If you buy a CPLD, it's hardware too, and the code you program into it is firmware. As I've already said, there's opportunity for confusion when you look at an FPGA, with an external PROM of some sort, the contents of which has to be loaded up into the FPGA each time the power comes up. Moreover, there's certainly room for confusion when you consider that what's functionally in the FPGA when it's loaded up is a CPU (microcontroller) and several peripherals, including ROM and RAM. It could be considered quite ambiguous in its character, though the FPGA and PROM are still hardware. > > If I buy a PROM, then again I know it's going to store (say) 256 4 bit > words. But I can use those as a tiny bit of microcode, or as the feedback > logic for a state machine, or whatever... > In either case, it's hardware and what you put in it is firmware. You need to consider moving forward into the '80's, Tony, since PROMs with external registers and feedback went out when PALs came down to <$8 each. For performance reasons, (the PROMs back then being slower than PALs, and costing nearly as much) building a small state machine using discrete proms, registers, and steering logic was pretty inefficient and, frankly, quite silly, since it saved nothing, using more components, more space, more time, more labor, and more budget. All this stuff is just semantics. You understand how it all works, and that's what really matters. Whether you call 'em "tomaytoes" or "tomahtoes" isn't that big a deal. As you undoubtedly can see, how you view the world greatly influences how you define the terms you use. If you don't see the difference between state machines and microcode, it's because you don't think of them as blocks in an executive summary. I'm convinced that the shape and size of components is heavily influenced by the ways in which they're incorporated in designs. One thing that makes one see state machines differently than microcode is that microcode normally took up several PROMs, while a state machine normally lives in a single PAL. Clearly, if you view things from a perspective of the '70's you wouldn't be prone to view things using the concept of a state machine as a single component, which is how it is likely to evolve in a design wherein the state machine lives in a single block on a diagram. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Apr 12 00:18:45 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed In-Reply-To: ; from bill_r@inetnebr.com on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:24:49PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020411221844.A24335@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 11:24:49PM -0500, Bill Richman wrote: > although I may be wrong. If I'm going to do something along the lines > of using two 4-bit values to represent each byte, or an escape code to > distinguish real 0's from leading blanks, and maybe include a > full-width (FF) punch every foot or so to allow for easy folding, > while having the reader software ignore them, I'd like to follow some > kind of established standard. Can anyone give me any pointers on > this? For programs, the encoding schemes I've seen generally divide the data into blcoks. You skip tape until you find a block header; then you read a given amount of tape and checksum it. You stick the data at a current address and increment the current address. At the end of the tape (marked by a zero-length block or some other format) you jump to a given starting address. If the load goes bad, it's usually possible to reread only the bad block rather than the entire tape. If the loader has to be read from tape you'll often see a multistage loading process -- toggle in tiny loader, which reads bigger loader, which stays in memory and can read everything else. There have been some very elegant tiny loaders -- I believe one of the Ellliott machines had a particularly nice one, but I forget the details. For data, the common practice seems to be to dictate "these characters will be ignored on data tapes and those may not appear". That solves the problem of control characters and leader and rubouts; also you can use the high bit for parity. pointers: RIM mode on the PDP-1 (described in the PDP-1 Handbook which you can find online); RIM and other loades on the PDP-6 and PDP-10, described in various manuals which you can also find online (look on Al Kossow's site); RIM and BIN loaders on the PDP-8, described in the Small Computer Handbook and other places (I'm sure there's tons of PDP-8 information out there but I don't know where offhand). Those machines have word sizes that are multiples of 6, so they generally read 6 bits out of 8. Motorola S-records (each one starts with the letter "S") were very popular and may still be. They encode each byte as two hex digits so they are long but avoid special characters. The OS/8 handbook for the PDP-8 discusses formatting of data tapes. Probably many others that I don't know about. There's also the subject of reading (and booting from) punch cards but never mind that for now. -- Derek From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 00:24:36 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: Re: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 (Chris) References: Message-ID: <15542.28564.731142.590836@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, Chris wrote: > What wonderful timing for you to post the reminder... THANKS! (now, does > anyone know if the Trenton DMV is anywhere near the fest grounds? Maybe I > can transfer my fire department's trailer registrations to NF while I am > down there so we can stop paying reg fees every year) The Trenton MVA office is in Trenton (ahem) right off of Route 1, and is a fair distance from Edison where TCF is now held. There is likely an MVA satellite office in Edison but I couldn't guess as to where. I try to avoid Edison. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Fri Apr 12 00:25:56 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > okay I live in melbourne and this one seemed too good to pass up, so > basically I have got the machine, need to fix the system password, but I > have some documantation on how to do that so no real problems there... > > Okay what It came with > > The machine as listed abouve, including all of the leads, so I have no > hassles connecting up a terminal as it came with the mmj serial line. A > vt440 and a huge old laser printer. > > But the big thing is that when I spoke to darren about th machine, he said > that it came with all of its manuals. > > when he said all he wasn't kidding, I am still sorting out the 5 boxes or > so of folders and manuals there are heaps, programmer refernce manuals all > sorts of manuals I will provide a good list when I have finished sorting > everything out... > > So a good find.... > And one I never thought I would see here, it allways seems that the free > stuff is allways in the USA... > > Joy > > > Benjamin Gardiner > > Hmmm Replying to ones own message, grrr I can't seem to change the system password, here is what I am doing point out anything wrong... I am flolowing the directions from: http://www.vaxarchive.org/swdoc/vms/txt/vmsfaq.txt (the section MGMT5) at the >>> prompt I have entered b/1 this gets me to the SYSBOOT> prompt all good so far. then I type the followning commands: SET/STARTUP OPA0: SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE this gets me to the $ prompt then I type SPAWN @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP And from the VMS faq this leads me to believe that it sould boot up and leave me logged in to the console. and then I could change the password. this doesn't seem to occur, it seems to boot up normaly, and then ask for user/password... Is there anything I am doing wrong? I am using VMS 6.1 if thats a help THanks heaps Benjamin From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 00:34:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001a01c1e1e3$ae5c60c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:48 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 10:50:56PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, that's what I'd come to accept as well. So basically, if I look at a > > > PCB or a schematic I can't tell if it's microcoded or 'just a state > > > machine'. I have to know how it was designed. Brilliant! > > No, as you pointed out below it is possible to implement a microcoded > > design as a state-machine. You have to seperate the design and the > > So given a processor we can't tell if it's microcoded or not by looking > at the scehamtic. This seems to make the term 'microcoded' fairly useless :-) > > > > Firstly, the second system is also just a state machine. Let's use a > > > synchronous counter, which itself is a state machine (look at the > > > schematics sometine). Then move the 'counter' ff's into the 'state > > > register' (i.e. make it a bit longer) and combine the mux and the counter > > > feedback logc into the 'ROM' (more strictly, an arbitrary combinatorial > > > logic circuit). It's now of the same form as the first system. > > > No, now you don't have a separate ROM (or PROM or any other kind of > > linear addressable memory) any more. The main reason to use a microcoded > > Of course I do. It's just a somewhat larger ROM. You do realise that > _any_ combinatorial logic circuit can be implemented using a sufficiently > large ROM, right. So all I need to do is pick a large enough ROM to > contain the original microcode + the logic for the counter, etc. That's > now all in one ROM. I connect it to the state latch. It's now a state > machine. It's also, IMHO, the same microcoded system as the original design. > You're starting to mix questions of logic with questions of implementation. A state machine is a logical construct, while a ROM, registers, muxes, etc, are physical constructs. It's similar to asking yourself whether running a program under a simulator is equivalent to running the same software on the native hardware. The effect is the same so they're logical equivalents. They may be quite different in their implementation. > The term "microcoded" in the context in which I've seen it used for the past three decades has always meant that there's a small primitive computer running a small primitive instruction set, and it's used to implement, physically, the more complex structures of a larger system with a larger, more complex, instruction set and resources. This was a distinction between "microcode" and "micro code" which refers to what we wrote for our microcomputers in various applications. > > > machine instead of a "pure" state machine is that you can change it > > quite easily by putting another "program" in the ROM. If you > > And why can't I change the functionality of a state machine by changing > the contents of the 'feedback' ROM? (Hint : I most certainly can do this). > > > > > The first design is smaller and faster and the second can be changed more > > > > easily... > > > > > > Why? As far as I can see either can be changed easily. > > If you implemented the thing in discrete logic it's probably > > possible to change it by soldering wires all over the board, > > Well, I thought the combinatorial part of the state machine was also > implemented using a ROM. It's certainly possible to do this (and at one > time it was very common). > Using a PROM to implement a combinatorial path has always been the most costly way to do it. I don't think it was as common as you suggest. Such an application is likely to lead to very sparse ROM utilization. The ROM has a fixed Or and fixed AND array, hence has to have many more registers in it than a programmable logic device capable of the same logic, and, likewise, many more than the equivalent logic implemented discretely in SSI/MSI logic. You can convince yourself of this by simply examining some old PAL designs for various encoder/decoder schemes using PALs (just as easily understandable as discrete logic) as posted on the LATTICE web site, as examples of SPLD (PAL) applications from the '80's, and then considering the amount of ROM space that they'd require if simply implemented in a ROM with registered feedback. You'd need a single 22V10 for an MFM encoder/decoder while a ROM would have to be prohibitively wide and deep. From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Apr 12 00:34:56 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 References: Message-ID: <200204120534.BAA5169281@shell.TheWorld.com> >With regard to RT-11, I have a request - does anyone think it >is worthwhile to keep track of and have a centralized location >which records as many of the current RT-11 bugs as possible? Bugs should be reported to Mentec. That is the only way to get them fixed in the product so as not to cause a regression for those who might use an unofficial fix and then upgrade. If you want to set up a central list of bugs which have been reported to Mentec so that they can be tracked, that is a different matter and I think it a good idea. But I also think that information about any such bugs should be freely shared with any who ask. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 12 00:44:15 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Any interest in ROM 00 Apple IIgs? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411221714.031e7080@mail.zipcon.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020411224349.0448c3f0@mail.zipcon.net> Danm, I thought I had changed the recipient address.... was supposed to go private :( From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 11 16:41:07 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Documation D150 card reader Message-ID: I have a Documation D150 card reader that I am trying to make operational. I fired it up today and ran a card through, only to have a big black streak get "printed" to the card. I thought this was odd, so I opened it up and found several problems. The black streak was caused by the roller that pulls the card through the slot. It's basically melted into a gooey ink-like mess. Actually, only one side of it has melted. The other side is mostly intact, so I may be able to just eliminate the melted side and still use this roller. It looks like this: __ __ | \/ | ==| |== <-- spindle |__/\__| ^- one side melted Then there is a rubber gasket that was around a disc that was situated perpendicular to the way the card slides through. This roller dried up and crumbled into several different pieces. ^ card goes in this way ---> and the rubber disk spun this way | | I think the purpose of this roller was to push the card against the guide so that it goes through the reader straight. Then there are two toothed belts driving cams from motors. One of them got completely obliterated. The radial threads inside the belt got wrapped around the drive cam and left a gooey residue on it. The other belt is still in tact but very gooey, and is probably going to go at some point as well. I was able to get this code off of it: SDP 6R6-055018C I did a Google search but didn't turn anything up on this reader. Does anyone know of a source to get replacement belts and parts for this reader? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 00:46:42 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002201c1e1e5$6c9d67e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > A computer is likely to have several state machines. Defining the computer as > > being a state machine is like saying a '747 is a light bulb. > > But a state machine takes in external inputs, combines them with it's > internal 'state', and produces outputs. So does a computer.... > > I think that _any_ computer with finite memory (and that's all real > computers) cna be shown to be equivalent to a state machine. Things like > turing machines and PDAs [1] are only more powerful than state machines > becuase they have infinite memory. > I've argued that in the context of exhaustive system testing. Any computer, and, in fact, the worldwide computer resources, viewed as a system is still bounded, though very large, and could, in theory, be viewed as a finite state machine. I challenge you, however, to come up with a way to validate such a system, whatever the size, using a computer, such that every possible combination of bits in mass storage, in semiconductor memory, and in inputs and outputs, is exercised and the system behavior rigorously characterized. > > [1] Push-Down Automata. A state machine with an infinite stack linked up > to it. Not any other expansion of that acronym. > How do you create an infinite stack? I'd submit that if it has an infinite anything, it isn't a Finite State Machine. > > > > > Here we have a fine example of what happens when computer-science meets > > > > electro-engineering... > > > > Mathematically there is no difference between a state-machine and > > > > microcode. Both are just different methods to describe a finite state > > machine. > > > > > > And electronically there's little, if any, difference. > > > > > Actually, there's a mathematical difference between them, since the microcode > > is just to ROM or fuse array content, while the state machine is the > > combination of that with the combo-logic and registers that comprise the state > > machine. > > OK, the term 'microcode' was incorrect here. Let's rephrase it as > 'microcoded system'. There is little, if any, electronic difference > between a state machine and a microcoded control system. > > > If it's microcoded, there's a complete execution unit the purpose of which is > > to execute content of the microcode ROMs. If it's a hand-wired set of > > I don't know what you're getting at here? What's an 'execution unit', > other than some kind of microcode address sequencer and something to > decode the microcode words. How does it differ from the state latch and > state decoding logic of a state machine? > In the context of "microcoded" system it is a small fast computer used to implement, physically, the behavior and resources of a larger more complex, and somewhat slower, system. > > > transitors and diodes, or whatever, functioning as a state machine, it's not > > microcoded, since there's no distinct microcode. Now if you want to redefine > > So by this definition if I take a microcoded processor and store the > microcode in a mask programmed ROM, then it ceases to be microcoded? The > 68000 is not microcoded because the ROM contents can't be changed? > > Alternatively, say I take a classic microcoded processor (say the > 11/45). The microcode is stored in fusible link PROMs in the original. I > now put all the processor logic _including the microcode_ into a very > large FPGA, and I let the FPGA tools reduce and optimise the logic > (letting said tools loose on a complex circuit is a very silly idea, > but...). Are you going to tell me the result, which is electronically > equivalent to the original, is no longer microcoded? > The applications I've seen use a multi-component chipset that allows considerable flexibility in configuration of the "target" hardware/software system and executes primitive microinstructions to implement the target instruction set and implement the target resources. It's essentially a simulator, consisting of both hardware and firmware, that functions as a computer that, in effect doesn't really exist. That's what makes 'em so flexible. That's also why they're ultimately implemented in hardware with considerable reduction in cost and increase in performance. From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 11 16:47:37 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <3CB64A76.E596BF8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Ah, but Commodore isn't making it. A homebrew user is. > The 24 bit adressing is the big problem,with 32+ bit addressing common > now days.If your goal is fast 6502 C-64 stuff that a great machine. If > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype quantities. ^^ He? ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 00:57:34 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003501c1e1e6$f2231e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The distinction between hardware and firmware is in that you can't tell from > > > looking at the part as you buy it, what it's going to be. If you buy a 7474, > What was meant here is that you can't tell what function is going to be implemented in a programmable part from simply looking at the part number. You can tell from looking at a discrete device what its functions are. > > > That's a dubious definition at best.... > > > > If I buy a 7474, then I know it's going to be 2 d-type ff's. But I can > > choose to use those as 2 bits of an register on a CPU I want to build, or > > as a /4 clock divider, or to do the handshake for a centronics input > > port, or... > Yes, but it's still a 7474 and is limited to what you can do with a 7474. You can't program it to behave differently than any other 7474 connected externally in the same way. If you can touch it, it's hardware. If you can't alter its internals (except by doing something you shouldn't) so that it functions in a predictable way different from another identical part, when externally connected in the same way, then there's certainly no firmware involved. > > Or 1/2 as an inverter for an xtal oscillator and 1/2 for div/2 > (had to do that one to avoid using 1 more package) > I'd like to see how that works! I was, just yesterday, looking at a circuit trying to figure out how to use half a 74HC393 as an inverter in order to avoid adding a package. > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 12 01:09:13 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: System Industries QBus board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020412060913.73827.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > ...I also have documentation for the QDA50E > which I believe to be the QBus version of the 9900 and software > drivers and formatters on TK50 for the same. I would be interested in an image file of the software. I already have the hardware. Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 12 01:12:22 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? In-Reply-To: <001d01c1e1c8$939663a0$2000a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <20020412061222.74079.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to > put the boards in an 11/34c? Someone gave me a working 11/34a. > It boots RT-11. I want to add the cache and floating point > boards. I've never had my hands on a UNIBUS machine before. I don't know about a web page, but I have some paper docs on the 11/34(a). If you can't find anything online, let me know and I'll dig out what I have. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 12 01:16:41 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <200204120052.RAA19112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20020412061641.39167.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Now if they continue on in the Commodore tradition, it will either sell > > like hotcakes and they will keep cutting the prices until there is one > > in every garage and yard sale. And of course there will be NO hardware > > or software support of any kind. A massive cult following will > > continue interest long after the corporation goes bankrupt on a yearly > > basis. > > Ah, but Commodore isn't making it. A homebrew user is. One of my favorite quotes about the "quality" of the Commodore Marketing Department is... If Commodore sold sushi, they'd probably call it "cold, raw, dead fish." -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 12 01:30:03 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020412063003.17575.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Can you still get 'fuse wire' in the States? It's commonly available over > here because many houses still have 'consumer units' (fuseboxes) > containing rewireable fuses. Typically you buy a card with 5A, 15A and > 30A fuse wire wound onto it. While I do not doubt for one moment that you can buy such things in the UK, I would imagine that such a product is a lawsuit waiting to happen in the States. I grew up in a house with knob-and-tube wiring and light fixtures fastened to the pipes of the former gas lamps with glass screw-in fuses in the basement, not circuit breakers. The common trick of the day when a fuse blew and you didn't have a replacement was to drop a penny under the burned out fuse. Electrical house fires were also common. I think if they continued to sell supplies for homeowner-refurbished fuses, someone, somewhere would try to use ordinary wire and burn their house down. The difference would be that it's "obvious" that a penny does not belong in an electrical panel. How is Joe Average supposed to know that the fuse box takes "special" wire when one blows? Re: earlier discussion about stupidity leading to egregious lawsuits, but there you are... begging for trouble. In short: no... I have never seen "fuse wire" sold over the counter, nor have I even _heard_ of such a thing here. Caveat: I am probably too young to have ever seen it, even if it were ever available here. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 12 01:39:59 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > Does anyone have the pinout for the db25 console port? Assuming that > the 25-pin bulkhead connector marked "Console" is a serial console port? Well, with some help from Emanuel and an old post by Douglas Gwyn, I figured out that the 11/93's console is a "standard" RS232 serial port. The bulkhead DIP switches were set such that the console port was disabled, which threw me for a while, and one of my DB25-MMJ adapters has died, which threw me off for a _long_ while, but I finally got a boot monitor, and then brought up the OS. RSX-11M+ Drat. I was hoping for Windows 2000. Damn thing didn't come with ethernet, either. > Also, I understand that a M8981-AA is a 2M board and a -BA is a 4M > board. How do I find out which? Boot monitor says 4M, but I had already figured that out from the little barcode sticker on the BA23. It says "*11Z93-BA*" So will this guy boot from Tim Shoppa's RT-11 CD? Doc, who is thrilled beyond belief From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 12 01:44:46 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > I am flolowing the directions from: > http://www.vaxarchive.org/swdoc/vms/txt/vmsfaq.txt > (the section MGMT5) > And from the VMS faq this leads me to believe that it sould boot up and > leave me logged in to the console. and then I could change the password. > > this doesn't seem to occur, it seems to boot up normaly, and then ask for > user/password... IIRC, I just logged in as SYSTEM and gave a random password twice. That got me in. The 3100-80 is very nice. I like mine a lot. It's even nicer that you got all the docs, too. Doc From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 12 01:41:53 2002 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? Message-ID: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DE0@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Hi Jonathan. Check out http://archives.decdocs.org Click the link "print set archive" There you find, among others, the Print Set of the 11/34. The folder "manuals", down the list, contains all you need. KD11, FP11, KK11, M9312, etc. Especially look at the KK11 manual. It describes the step you must do to install the cache next to the FP taking into account the power distribution. It works, I did this at home with my 11/34A. BTW you need a special "over the top" connector to connect one CPU board + cache + FP board .... Sorry, I do not have a spare one. Does an 11/34A with FP and cache become a "PDP-11/34C" ? Good luck with the conversion, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Engdahl [mailto:jrengdahl@safeaccess.com] > Sent: vrijdag 12 april 2002 4:20 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/34c website? > > > Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to > put the boards in an 11/34c? Someone gave me a working 11/34a. > It boots RT-11. I want to add the cache and floating point > boards. I've never had my hands on a UNIBUS machine before. > > I did some web searching, and found a series of messages from > when Megan did something similar, but it would be nice to find > this info all in one place. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive > Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl@safeaccess.com > > "The things which are seen are temporary, > but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 > > > From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 12 01:46:47 2002 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? Message-ID: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DE1@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Forgot to mention my website (a bit of promotion). Check http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj Click on the 11/35 console. Click on the PDP-11/34A link. Enjoy a little. Click on the *_folder_* PDP-11/34A. The tree open. Click on the CPU information. 2 subfolders appear. Click on these to get to some documents. Extra promotion. In the first page, click on the starfield. I have updated my StarShip website extensively. Have a nice weekend, all, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Engdahl [mailto:jrengdahl@safeaccess.com] > Sent: vrijdag 12 april 2002 4:20 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/34c website? > > > Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to > put the boards in an 11/34c? Someone gave me a working 11/34a. > It boots RT-11. I want to add the cache and floating point > boards. I've never had my hands on a UNIBUS machine before. > > I did some web searching, and found a series of messages from > when Megan did something similar, but it would be nice to find > this info all in one place. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive > Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 > http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl@safeaccess.com > > "The things which are seen are temporary, > but the things which are not seen are eternal." II Cor. 4:18 > > > From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 12 01:55:59 2002 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. Message-ID: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DE2@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Check http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj Click on the 11/35 console. Click on the uPDP-11/93 link. There is a simple page about the 11/93. The only interesting part (?) is the description if the DIP switches. That's all I have on the 11/93. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Sent: vrijdag 12 april 2002 4:45 > To: Classic Computers > Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. > > > Does anyone have the pinout for the db25 console port? > Assuming that > the 25-pin bulkhead connector marked "Console" is a serial > console port? > Also, I understand that a M8981-AA is a 2M board and a -BA is a 4M > board. How do I find out which? This one just shows M8981 with no > suffix, and "KDJ11-E CPU" on the processor side. > It is without a doubt the prettiest processor chip I've ever seen. > > Doc, trying VERY hard not to brag or gloat. > > From co.614sqn at aafc.adfc.gov.au Fri Apr 12 02:09:46 2002 From: co.614sqn at aafc.adfc.gov.au (FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) References: Message-ID: <018801c1e1f1$0891b7e0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) > I can't seem to change the system password, here is what I am doing point > out anything wrong... > > I am flolowing the directions from: > http://www.vaxarchive.org/swdoc/vms/txt/vmsfaq.txt > (the section MGMT5) > > at the >>> prompt I have entered b/1 this gets me to the SYSBOOT> prompt > all good so far. > > then I type the followning commands: > SET/STARTUP OPA0: > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > CONTINUE > > this gets me to the $ prompt then I type > SPAWN > @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP > > And from the VMS faq this leads me to believe that it sould boot up and > leave me logged in to the console. and then I could change the password. > > this doesn't seem to occur, it seems to boot up normaly, and then ask for > user/password... > > Is there anything I am doing wrong? I am using VMS 6.1 if thats a help I think that means you may have a console password enabled. Um. Bad karma. There is an alternate procedure in the VMS System Management Manual involving SYSUAFALT you could give that a go. Cheers Geoff in Oz From lists at subatomix.com Fri Apr 12 03:34:55 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TSV05 supported in V7M? Message-ID: <18434064141.20020412033455@subatomix.com> Google tells me that the TSU05 interface board, itself a rebadged Dilog board, emulates a TS11. Does anyone know for sure if this emulation is good enough to fool V7M UNIX? Google also tells me that the TS05 is slow. Are there any other issues with this transport, such as tape eating, or might it be pretty dependable? -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From vp at mcs.drexel.edu Fri Apr 12 03:55:09 2002 From: vp at mcs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: HP IPC (update) Message-ID: <200204120855.EAA26403@king.mcs.drexel.edu> This is the information I have managed to gather on the HP IPC: First have a look at the definitive guide to the IPC (http://www.coho.org/~pete/IPC/integral.html) Apart from that, I have managed to find the following info by playing with my IPC: There is a ROM at the back behind a little door. This contains basically the Unix OS (HP UX) and at least in my case Tech Basic. Tech Basic looks surprisingly like Series 80 Basic (e.g the Basic on the HP-86 and 87) including many ROM additions (e.g. IO ROM). The funny connector on the back (like a small centronics connector) is HP-IB (the HP name for IEEE-488) which is used to connect peripherals like floppies and hard disks. The IPC talks CS/80 over HP-IB so it supports "modern" HP-IB peripherals like the 9122 floppy drive. The IPC also has in internal HP-IL bus (a two wire, low power version of HP-IB) which is used to talk to the built in printer. At this stage I haven't managed to investigate whether I can externalize this bus and connect additional peripherals. The built-in printer takes hp92261a print cartridges which (amazingly) are still available from major mail order firms (e.g. www.staples.com in the US, but I suppose you can get them in the UK as well). Since the print cartridge contains the print head as well, it is very probable that you can get the printer to work with little effort. The IPC site (see URL earlier on) has a number of diskette images. These are for double sided double density (720K) disks. I have been unable to get any modern PC to write compatible floppies using the standard double sided quad density drive (1.44Mb). I did find a 720K drive on eBay and bought a pack of 720K diskettes. Using OpenBSD on a PC I then proceeded to successfully transfer the images to the floppies and access the data from the IPC. BTW the IPC utilities in the IPC site (programs that can be used to read IPC floppies on a Unix host) work only on big-endian machines. You cannot use them on a i386. Before trying to use the built-in floppy drive, note the following: a) its totally non-standard. The connector is wrong and the RPM is wrong. I believe there is no way that you can use a PC compatible drive on that machine. So take good care of it! b) the heads need cleaning and the loading mechanism needs lubricating. If you haven't done this already, do NOT skip this step, you may damage the disk heads if you try to use a drive with a sticky loading mechanism. See later on for cleaning instructions. c) The built-in disk notifies the OS when a new diskette is inserted so that it is automatically mounted. This makes the built in floppy more convenient than external devices. Using the system: Just power it up and you should see the unix boot messages. Finally you see the desktop manager (PAM). You can type paths on the command line on top or use the cursor keys to navigate the file system. If you have an HP-HIL mouse so much the better you just point and click. You should find the BASIC interpreter in /rom/basic. Until you get the floppies from Peter's site, BASIC is the only way to use the machine. Use MASS STORAGE IS path to change your working directory and CAT path to list directories. If you need documentation on Tech BASIC, I suggest you buy an HP-86/87 Owner's manual on eBay. They are close to the real thing and far more common than IPC manuals. For a hint on how to use external peripherals check the file /documents/hp71_xfer on the IPC_BASIC_Bonus diskette. As an example, here is a program that collects readings from an HP multimeter (HP-IB device 13). 100 ! load HP-IB driver 110 MASS STORAGE IS "/dev" 120 ! on Series 80 the HP-IB card is always number 7 130 ASSIGN 7 TO "hpib" 140 ! The 13th HP-IB device is therefore 713 150 m=713 160 ! switch multimeter to remote control 170 REMOTE m 180 ! program multimeter for resistance, auto zero and trigger mode 190 OUTPUT m; "F3R1Z1T2" 200 ! initialize "previous" reading 210 v0=-1 215 DISP "Ready: press STOP to terminate program" 220 ! do while true 230 TRIGGER m 240 ENTER m; S$ 250 ! display value only if different from earlier reading 260 IF v0<>v THEN DISP v 270 v0=v 280 GOTO 220 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Drive removal: Get a torx #10 screwdriver, almost all the screws on the IPC are of this type so there is no point in trying to do any maintenance without one. The plastic diskette eject button seen from the front of the machine, is not attached to the drive and is likely to fall off when you remove the drive. It is best to secure it in place by covering it with a small piece of adhesive tape. This will keep it in place during the removal and subsequent installation of the diskette drive. First remove the back panel. You do NOT need to remove the system ROM to do this, so leave it alone. The panel is held by just two screws (probably the only screws that need a flat blade screwdriver) and hinges on the bottom of the machine. Once the panel is removed you can see the inside of the machine. A big PCB to the left and the floppy to the right. Open the printer door (on the top of the machine) and look at the bottom of the storage compartment next to the printer. You should see two black screws. Remove them. Now the only screw holding the diskette assembly is on screw on the bottom of the assembly (right on top of the PSU). remove the connectors and the last screw. The floppy should slide out towards you. Looking at the the floppy assembly you see a mounting bracket and a full height floppy. Before removing the drive from the mounting bracket mark the orientation of the floppy drive against the bracket with a pencil this will make reassembly easier. Remove the mounting bracket and the metal cover of the floppy. Do not forget to remove a black screw on the back of the floppy, otherwise you will not be able to slide the metal cover out. You should see the loading mechanism on the sides of the floppy. Try inserting a diskette to see how it causes the loading tray to slide along paths on the fixed sides of the drive. These are the only parts that need cleaning and oiling. Use machine lubricating oil (under no circumstances should you use stuff like WD-40). Apply one or two drops on each side and insert/remove the floppy until it slides in and out effortlessly. I use a cleaning floppy to clean the heads, so there is nothing more to do at this stage other than closely inspect the READ/WRITE heads. Hopefully they should have the obvious orientation that allows them to come into contact with the magnetic surface of the floppy. If this is so, then you are in luck, otherwise you lose. Replace the cover and secure the floppy on the mounting bracket. Orient the drive and bracket so that the two screw holes are on top and slide the entire assembly inside the IPC. Attach the top two screws and the bottom screw. You may need to slightly adjust the drive mounting assembly to align the bottom screw. Replace the power and data cables and reattack the back panel. Remove the piece of adhesive tape securing the eject button and you are ready. --------------- Corrections or additions are always welcome. **vp From lists at subatomix.com Fri Apr 12 04:00:16 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? In-Reply-To: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DE1@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> References: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8DE1@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> Message-ID: <6435585639.20020412040016@subatomix.com> On Friday, April 12, 2002, Gooijen H wrote: > Forgot to mention my website (a bit of promotion). > Check http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj That seems to have improved quite a bit from when I last saw it. Good work! -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 12 04:08:38 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Ready for another junk ^H^H^H^H er,ah, computer feast? (Central Florida) In-Reply-To: <15541.56508.257792.216590@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I just talked to Eric Smith and he's going to be visiting this area > > (Orlando) around May 17 or 18. I thought it might be a good time for > > another Junk Feast. Let me know if you're interested. > > Hey! Yes!! :-) I missed the last one because I hadn't moved down > here yet...but now I'm just a little ways away in St. Petersburg. > Barring any catastrophe, count me in! Me too!! Peace... Sridhar From Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org Fri Apr 12 04:35:48 2002 From: Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:48:12AM +0100 References: <20020411093043.A49684@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Message-ID: <20020412113548.A21206@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 01:48:12AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > So given a processor we can't tell if it's microcoded or not by looking > at the scehamtic. This seems to make the term 'microcoded' fairly useless :-) I meant it it's always possible to transform a microcoded state machine in a not microcoded state machine. So you can design a microcoded control unit and decide later if you implement it microcoded or not. > > No, now you don't have a seperate ROM (or PROM or any other kind of > > linear addressable memory) any more. The main reason to use a microcoded > > Of course I do. It's just a somewhat larger ROM. You do realise that > _any_ combinatorial logic circuit can be implemented using a sufficiently > large ROM, right. So all I need to do is pick a large enough ROM to > contain the original microcode + the logic for the counter, etc. That's > now all in one ROM. I connect it to the state latch. It's now a state > machine. It's also, IMHO, the same microcoded system as the original design. Your're right, but the ROM would become _large_ indeed. If your function requires 16 external inputs and 4 inputs for the current state you already need a 1MBit ROM. Now you need 4 outputs for the next state and lets say 4 other outputs. So you would need a 1MByte ROM to implement your machine... > > machine instead of a "pure" state machine is that you can change it > > quite easily by putting another "program" in the ROM. If you > > And why can't I change the functionality of a state machine by changing > the contents of the 'feedback' ROM? (Hint : I most certainly can do this). I'm not sure what you mean by "feedback ROM", if you mean an additional ROM between the outputs an the state latch you have and microcoded state machine again... ;-) bye Thilo From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Fri Apr 12 05:01:31 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: <018801c1e1f1$0891b7e0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 2:55 PM > Subject: Re: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) > > > > > I can't seem to change the system password, here is what I am doing point > > out anything wrong... > > > > I am flolowing the directions from: > > http://www.vaxarchive.org/swdoc/vms/txt/vmsfaq.txt > > (the section MGMT5) > > > > at the >>> prompt I have entered b/1 this gets me to the SYSBOOT> prompt > > all good so far. > > > > then I type the followning commands: > > SET/STARTUP OPA0: > > SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 > > CONTINUE > > > > this gets me to the $ prompt then I type > > SPAWN > > @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP > > > > And from the VMS faq this leads me to believe that it sould boot up and > > leave me logged in to the console. and then I could change the password. > > > > this doesn't seem to occur, it seems to boot up normaly, and then ask for > > user/password... > > > > Is there anything I am doing wrong? I am using VMS 6.1 if thats a help > > I think that means you may have a console password enabled. Um. Bad karma. > There is an alternate procedure in the VMS System Management Manual > involving SYSUAFALT > you could give that a go. > > Cheers > > Geoff in Oz > > got it working.. cool.. now to learn vms ;) I have no idea realy on how to use this system unfortunatly I am quite used to the way UNIX works (ducks) and VMS is so differnt. does anyone know a good site for VMS newbies? Anyway, I am not sure what I am going to do with this machine yet, I may end up installing Net or Open BSD on the beast, so I can get it talking to the rest of my network here which is a linux box, a Mac (running OS X) and My sgi... anyway thanks for your help.... so far so so good.. Benjamin From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 12 05:17:59 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Now admittedly I've moaned that 'for IBM compatibles' should mean it'll > > > run on an 8088 with 640K of RAM and either an MDA or CGA card, but these > > > days that's unlikely to be the case :-( > > > > > What? You mean it won't run on a 7090? > > I've often been tempted to complain that the PC product I've just bought > doesn't work with my 370-compatible. After all, that box is compatible > with _an_ IBM system. :-) IBM-compatible with DOS used to mean compatible with IBM mainframes running DOS/VSE. *sigh* Peace... Sridhar From Lists at joules.org Fri Apr 12 05:39:09 2002 From: Lists at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Free stuff in Mid Wales Message-ID: Due to a move to a smaller house, I am having to consider letting go of some of my toys :( The following is available, free to a good home: 2 Sun 386i (boxes only, no HDD dead or dying NVRAM) 2 x PDP11 rackmount CPUs 2 BBC Bs Other stuff may be available as I move and find out how little space I have in my computer room. -- Regards Pete "Time flies like an arrow and fruit flies like a banana" From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 12 05:56:08 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <15542.28564.731142.590836@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > What wonderful timing for you to post the reminder... THANKS! (now, does > > anyone know if the Trenton DMV is anywhere near the fest grounds? Maybe I > > can transfer my fire department's trailer registrations to NF while I am > > down there so we can stop paying reg fees every year) > > The Trenton MVA office is in Trenton (ahem) right off of Route 1, > and is a fair distance from Edison where TCF is now held. There is > likely an MVA satellite office in Edison but I couldn't guess as to > where. I try to avoid Edison. What? You don't like Indian people? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 05:59:14 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: Re: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15542.28564.731142.590836@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15542.48642.46993.696505@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > The Trenton MVA office is in Trenton (ahem) right off of Route 1, > > and is a fair distance from Edison where TCF is now held. There is > > likely an MVA satellite office in Edison but I couldn't guess as to > > where. I try to avoid Edison. > > What? You don't like Indian people? I'm fine with Indian people. It's just the whole "bullets flying overhead" thing that I just can't get used to...and they tend not to be fired by the Indian people. Weenie. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org Fri Apr 12 06:13:29 2002 From: Thilo.Schmidt at unix-ag.org (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 02:05:40AM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20020412131329.A15380@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 02:05:40AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: [a fine text about the AMD2900 series] Thanks for the introduction, again learned something... :-) > > You think of a specific Microcode-Machine with a well > > defined Microcode-Language and probably very sophisticated > > tools. > > You mean you don't just write the microcode in binary :-)... (Seriously, > I have done this once...) Well, all microcode I've written was in binary but it was only as an exercise. Today it's easier to grab some GAL or FPGA, write some VHDL or Verilog and let the tools do the rest. bye Thilo From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 12 06:20:57 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 11, 2 09:47:37 pm" Message-ID: <200204121120.EAA19108@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Ah, but Commodore isn't making it. A homebrew user is. [Ben] > > The 24 bit adressing is the big problem,with 32+ bit addressing common > > now days.If your goal is fast 6502 C-64 stuff that a great machine. If > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype quantities. [Sellam] > He? ;) Yeah, Jeri (to Ben: note the *i*) has taken a lot of that. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- God is Real, unless declared Integer. -- Stan Sieler ----------------------- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 12 08:45:41 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: HP IPC (update) In-Reply-To: <200204120855.EAA26403@king.mcs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020412094541.007f3a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:55 AM 4/12/02 -0400, you wrote: > >This is the information I have managed to gather on the HP IPC: > >First have a look at the definitive guide to the IPC >(http://www.coho.org/~pete/IPC/integral.html) > >Apart from that, I have managed to find the following info by playing >with my IPC: > >There is a ROM at the back behind a little door. This contains basically >the Unix OS (HP UX) and at least in my case Tech Basic. The ROM in the back is optional. The IPC had a very limited set of HP-UX built-in but you could get a complete HP-UX in ROM (the Software Engineering ROM) and install it in an expansion slot or you could get Technical BASIC in ROM. It installed inside the OS ROM located under the backdoor. You could also get a blank PROM card to install your own software. The same socket was also used for the Service ROM. Technical BASIC and the complete HP-UX were also available on disk. Tech Basic looks >surprisingly like Series 80 Basic (e.g the Basic on the HP-86 and 87) That's because the IPC was the designated replacement for the HP-85 series. BUT if you look at the number range and accuracy, it's not nearly as good as the 85. >including many ROM additions (e.g. IO ROM). > >The funny connector on the back (like a small centronics connector) is >HP-IB (the HP name for IEEE-488) which is used to connect peripherals >like floppies and hard disks. The IPC talks CS/80 over HP-IB so it >supports "modern" HP-IB peripherals like the 9122 floppy drive. Correct. You could also get a expansion card that had a faster HP-IB port. > >The IPC also has in internal HP-IL bus (a two wire, low power version of >HP-IB) which is used to talk to the built in printer. At this stage >I haven't managed to investigate whether I can externalize this bus >and connect additional peripherals. I haven't tried that. Let me know what you find out about it. There was also a HP-IL expansion card available for the IPC. I've used one to talk to a HP 3468 meter. > >The built-in printer takes hp92261a print cartridges which (amazingly) >are still available from major mail order firms (e.g. www.staples.com >in the US, but I suppose you can get them in the UK as well). Since the >print cartridge contains the print head as well, it is very probable >that you can get the printer to work with little effort. Those are the same cartridges that are used in the HP ThinkJet printers. They're also used in some Canon printers and in Diconix printers. Just don't leave them in for a long period of time or they'll leak all over the place. Also NEVER ship the IPC or a printer with them installed, the changing air pressure will cause them to pump the ink out. > >The IPC site (see URL earlier on) has a number of diskette images. >These are for double sided double density (720K) disks. I have >been unable to get any modern PC to write compatible floppies >using the standard double sided quad density drive (1.44Mb). I did >find a 720K drive on eBay and bought a pack of 720K diskettes. >Using OpenBSD on a PC I then proceeded to successfully transfer the >images to the floppies and access the data from the IPC. > >BTW the IPC utilities in the IPC site (programs that can be used >to read IPC floppies on a Unix host) work only on big-endian >machines. You cannot use them on a i386. > >Before trying to use the built-in floppy drive, note the following: > >a) its totally non-standard. The connector is wrong and the RPM >is wrong. I believe there is no way that you can use a PC compatible >drive on that machine. So take good care of it! Correct. Tony Duell can tell you lots more of the technical details about the drive but it's basicly the same drive that HP uses in most of their 80s ish 3.5" floppy drives; 9133, 9122, 9123, etc. > >b) the heads need cleaning and the loading mechanism needs lubricating. >If you haven't done this already, do NOT skip this step, you may >damage the disk heads if you try to use a drive with a sticky loading >mechanism. See later on for cleaning instructions. That's a COMMON problem with HP's double sided 3.5" floppy drives. The discussion and cleaning instructions have been posted here several times. > >c) The built-in disk notifies the OS when a new diskette is inserted >so that it is automatically mounted. This makes the built in floppy >more convenient than external devices. It's a real pain to make the IPC realize that you've changed the disk in an external drive! > >Using the system: > >Just power it up and you should see the unix boot messages. Finally you >see the desktop manager (PAM). You can type paths on the command line on >top or use the cursor keys to navigate the file system. If you have an >HP-HIL mouse so much the better you just point and click. > >You should find the BASIC interpreter in /rom/basic. Until you get >the floppies from Peter's site, BASIC is the only way to use the machine. > >Use > MASS STORAGE IS path >to change your working directory and > CAT path >to list directories. > >If you need documentation on Tech BASIC, I suggest you buy an HP-86/87 >Owner's manual on eBay. They are close to the real thing and far more common >than IPC manuals. The HP 9000 series manuals are helpfull if you don't have IPC manuals. They explain things like MSI and other topics that you MUST understand in order to use the IPC. I haven't compared the BASIC implementations in each but I expect that they're close. > >For a hint on how to use external peripherals check the file >/documents/hp71_xfer on the IPC_BASIC_Bonus diskette. > >As an example, here is a program that collects readings from an >HP multimeter (HP-IB device 13). > >100 ! load HP-IB driver >110 MASS STORAGE IS "/dev" >120 ! on Series 80 the HP-IB card is always number 7 >130 ASSIGN 7 TO "hpib" >140 ! The 13th HP-IB device is therefore 713 >150 m=713 >160 ! switch multimeter to remote control >170 REMOTE m >180 ! program multimeter for resistance, auto zero and trigger mode >190 OUTPUT m; "F3R1Z1T2" >200 ! initialize "previous" reading >210 v0=-1 >215 DISP "Ready: press STOP to terminate program" >220 ! do while true >230 TRIGGER m >240 ENTER m; S$ >250 ! display value only if different from earlier reading >260 IF v0<>v THEN DISP v >270 v0=v >280 GOTO 220 > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Drive removal: > >Get a torx #10 screwdriver, almost all the screws on the IPC are >of this type so there is no point in trying to do any maintenance >without one. > >The plastic diskette eject button seen from the front of the machine, >is not attached to the drive and is likely to fall off when you >remove the drive. It is best to secure it in place by covering it >with a small piece of adhesive tape. This will keep it in place >during the removal and subsequent installation of the diskette >drive. > >First remove the back panel. You do NOT need to remove the system ROM >to do this, so leave it alone. The panel is held by just two screws >(probably the only screws that need a flat blade screwdriver) and hinges >on the bottom of the machine. Once the panel is removed you can see >the inside of the machine. A big PCB to the left and the floppy to the >right. > >Open the printer door (on the top of the machine) and look at the bottom >of the storage compartment next to the printer. You should see two black >screws. Remove them. Now the only screw holding the diskette assembly >is on screw on the bottom of the assembly (right on top of the PSU). >remove the connectors and the last screw. The floppy should slide out >towards you. > >Looking at the the floppy assembly you see a mounting bracket and a >full height floppy. Before removing the drive from the mounting >bracket mark the orientation of the floppy drive against the bracket >with a pencil this will make reassembly easier. Remove the mounting >bracket and the metal cover of the floppy. Do not forget to remove >a black screw on the back of the floppy, otherwise you will not be >able to slide the metal cover out. You should see the loading >mechanism on the sides of the floppy. Try inserting a diskette to >see how it causes the loading tray to slide along paths on the fixed >sides of the drive. These are the only parts that need cleaning and >oiling. Use machine lubricating oil (under no circumstances should >you use stuff like WD-40). Apply one or two drops on each side and >insert/remove the floppy until it slides in and out effortlessly. > >I use a cleaning floppy to clean the heads, so there is nothing more >to do at this stage other than closely inspect the READ/WRITE heads. >Hopefully they should have the obvious orientation that allows them >to come into contact with the magnetic surface of the floppy. If >this is so, then you are in luck, otherwise you lose. > >Replace the cover and secure the floppy on the mounting bracket. Orient >the drive and bracket so that the two screw holes are on top and slide >the entire assembly inside the IPC. Attach the top two screws and the >bottom screw. You may need to slightly adjust the drive mounting assembly >to align the bottom screw. Replace the power and data cables and >reattack the back panel. Remove the piece of adhesive tape securing >the eject button and you are ready. > >--------------- > >Corrections or additions are always welcome. > >**vp > > Somewhere I've got a write up about the IPC. I'll try to find it and post it on the list. (Found it. I'll post it at the same time that I post this.) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 12 08:42:04 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: IPC info (longish) was: Re: HP IPC (update) In-Reply-To: <200204120855.EAA26403@king.mcs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020412094204.0086ac00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Here's a message that I send to Brian ("Brian@oldcomputers" ) in response to his questions about the IPC. Joe Hi Brian, First, General info. Have you seen this web site ? I helped Peter when he got his IPC and he has posted a lot of general information about the IPC there. It also has some disk images that you can download. There are images there of all of the disks that come with the IPC. I've been intending to set up an IPC web site but I don't know when I'll ever get to it. Second; ROMs. Thgere are only two ROM options available to the public for the IPC. (the Software Engineering ROM and a Technical BASIC ROM). You will notice a door in the center of the back cover of the IPC. That's where the operating Systems ROM is located. Open the door and look at the box that's there. It should have a label telling you which version of Unix is installed in the machine. Most of them came with version 5.0 but there's also a version that's marked 1.something (0, I think). (verified later as 1.0) Despite what Peter says on his web page, the first IPCs came with an older version of Unix. According to the sales literature, HP wasn't even sure that they were going to offer Unix version 5. One of the options for the IPC is Technical BASIC in ROM. If the BASIC ROM has been installed there is supposed to be a sticker on the OS ROM box that says that BASIC has been installed. The "ROM" is actually a small CCA (Circuit Card Assembly) that contains the ROMs. If you buy that ROM you install it by opening the door and pulling out the OS ROM box then dissamble the box to remove a small CCA that contains the OS ROMs. You then plug the BASIC CCA unto the OS CCA and replace both of them in the box and reinsert the box in the back of the IPC. The other "ROM" option for the IPC is the "Software Engineering ROM". However this one isn't a ROM either. It's a full sized expansion card that mounts in one of the expansion card slots at the bottom of the back. This name is very misleading, it's really a full set of HP-UX in ROM. It will be obvious if this ROM is installed. One of my IPCs has something that's really odd. It's serial port card that says option 001. It's not listed in the HP catalogs but it turns out to be a Software Engineering ROM with a serial port card piggy backed onto it. So it has both cards but they use only one slot. Wahoo! There was a third ROM for the IPC but it was never sold to the public. That's the Service ROM. The Service ROM replaced the OS ROM entirely and could be used to troubleshoot machines that would not boot. I do have one of the service ROMs. External drives: I may be able to help you with software once I'm able to connect a 2nd drive onto mine so that I can readily duplicate disks. FWIW the IPC supports the HP 9122D and 9122S external floppy disk drives. The S model has a single drive and the D model has dual drives. There's also a 9122C drive but it's a quad density drive. The IPC will use it but there's some incapatiblity problems with it. The D and S drives are the same as what's in the IPC and you should be able to copy directly between the IPC and them. I have some of those but I have to sort through them to find a good one (see below). The IPC also supports a number of other drives including the HP 9133 and 9134 drives. The 9134 is a hard drive only and the 9133 is a hard drive and a floppy drive in one box. I think HP also says that it will support the 9153/9154 drives. Depending on the letter that follows the model number those hard drives range from about 15 to 40Mb. That doesn't sound like much these days but it's more than enough capacity for the IPC. I presently have three drives that I'm using on the IPC; a 7958B, a 9133 and a 7945. The one that I use the most is a 7958 which has a capacity of about 150Mb. It's inteneded for a medium size business computer and is not listed as being compatible with the IPC but I've been using it for years and it works fine. The 7945 is also not listed for the IPC but it seems to be working fine also but I've just been using it for a short time. The IPC is also supposed to support the HP 9125 5 1/4" floppy drive but I've never played with one of them. I did try to use a HP 9127 5 1/4" floppy drive on the IPC but I couldn't get the system to recognize it. The reason that I mentioned the drives is because I've been trying to install all of the IPC software that I have onto a single drive. If I can do that then I could simply copy everything to another drive and set up a new system. But I'm having touble getting things to work from the hard drive. The diagnostics is one example, it works fine from a floppy diks but it will not run from a hard drive! I'm no expert with Unix so I'm trying to get together with a friend of mine that is and perhaps he can figure out what's wrong. BTW I should tell you to be carefull with HP's double-sided disk drives, like the one that's used in the IPC, the 9122 and the 9133. They have a bad habit of gumming up and then they don't open all the way and you have to pry the disk out and force a new disk into the drive. If you have any symptoms like that DON'T USE THE DRIVE! By not opening all the way, it will cause the top head to catch on the disk and rip it off the drive! Two of my IPCs and all by 9122s are acting that way right now, that's why I can't copy disks at the moment. The fix isn't difficult, you have to remove the drive from the housing, take the sheet metal cover off the drive and then use solvent to remove the old grease on the sides of the dives where the part that holds the disk moves up and down againt the frame. I usually use alcohol and just pour it ove the drive and work it around and then wipe up the alcohol and dissovled grease. I use pressurinzed solvent such as carburator cleaner to get into any tight places. But you have to be careful with that stuff, it will dissolve many plastics. I'm also careful not to let the dirty alcohol get on the heads. After the mechanism works freely, I relubricate it sparingly with a good quality grease such as gun grease. The finally step is to clean the heads thoroughly. Then replace the cover and reinstall the drive. Here are the steps to get the drive out of an IPC. Unplug the power cord. Open the top cover/carrying handle then open the printer cover. In the bottom of the storage compartment next to the printer you will see two small screws. Remove them. Close the printer cover and case cover to get them out of the way. Remove any expansion cards in the back, then remove the two screws that hold on the back cover (one of each side). The back cover has hooks at the bottom that engage the rest of the machine so open the top of the back cover first then unhook it at the bottom. You will see the back of the drive on the left. Unplug the power cable and data cable, remove the one screw at the back of the drive and you can then pull out the drive. Reverse the steps to reinstall the drive. But first check that the eject button and it's spring is still in it's hole. (The drive is the only thing that holds them in place and they can fall into the bottom of the machine). There's a switch above the two cables on the back of the drive, make sure it is in the down position. Software: The software that I have includes; Unix version 5, utility software that goes with the SE ROM, Technical BASIC (disk version), C compiler (I think it includes an assembler), Fortran, Micro-Track, Plot-Trak, Calculator, DataComm, MultiPlan and TK! Solver. I have all the manual for these as well as all of the user's manuals for the IPC. I also have the service manuals for the IPC. Technical BASIC: I'm sure that you noticed that I kept referring to Technical BASIC. That's because the IPC was intened to replace the HP-85 and HP envisioned that most user's would use it as an instrument controller runing BASIC. But it appears that that's not what happened. I've never seen an IPC set up as an instrument controller. I think the Unix scared away most of those users. However I STILL see lots of HP-85s in use! In fact, I was watching an episode of This Old House awhile back and they were using a HP-85 to measure numerous tempatures in a house to check for insulation efficiency. But getting back to Technical BASIC, HP offered it in a ROM and in a disk based version. One reason that I know that HP was serious about using the IPC to replade the HP-85 is because they printed four different manuals for it. There is a Programming Techniques manual, an I/O Programming manual and a two volumes of Technical BASIC reference manuals. In contrast, the C compiler manual is only about 20 pages long (but they did include the Motorola data manual for the 68000 and K&R's Unix manual). Whew! That's enough for now. E-mail any other questions and I'll try to answer them. Joe At 12:32 PM 11/25/01 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Joe > >I am very interested, I don't know anything at all about it. Unfortunately I >don't have any software to run on it either. > >The one I have has a Unix ROM in it, I don't know if there were other ROM's, >anything you can tell me will be very welcome. > >Is there any chance of you copying any software I will obviously pay you. > >I am really looking forward to hearing from you, I have been waiting for >several years to find someone who knows about the Integral. You are only the >second person I have come across with one or should I say Six > >regards >Brian > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe" >To: >Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:58 PM >Subject: HP Integral > > >> Hi Brian, >> >> I found your web page about the HP Integral while searching the net. I >> have six Integrals and I can tell you anything that you want to know about >> them if you're still interested. >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> > > From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com Fri Apr 12 08:40:26 2002 From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34c website? References: <200204120257.g3C2vS114650@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <004501c1e227$9a5be480$014f580a@ra.rockwell.com> Maybe you're right. The PDP-11 FAQ mentions an 11/34c, but the paragraph is a little difficult to parse. I was under the impression that the cache turned an 11/34a into an 11/34c. "11/34a, 11/34c. The /34a with the "right cache" presented a higher level of performance than the then "hot machine" of the time - I believe it was the /60 - in the eyes of -11 engineering / central engineering. The "c" upgrade was the re-establishment of the original cache. Thus, the /34c was an internal mythical model to allow FS to keep track of what systems had the upgrade - much like the /35 vs /40 clock mod that made the /35 faster." http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html I installed the FP11 and KK11 last night, following info from the "11/34A rebuild project" thread from this list in 1999. With the cache in I get a bus error. With just the FP11 in, it runs RT-11 again, but evidently this build of RT11 doesn't look at the FP11, because a "sho all" says nothing about the FP. I'll have to download a different version tonight. Thanks for the pointers, all. There are so many search hits for "pdp-11/34", it would have taken me a long time to filter out the good ones. I have some more reading to do. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive Advanced Technology Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA Mayfield Heights Labs jrengdahl@safeaccess.com 440-646-7326 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 10:57 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/34c website? > > Is there a website somewhere that will tell me exactly how to > > put the boards in an 11/34c? Someone gave me a working 11/34a. > > It boots RT-11. I want to add the cache and floating point > > boards. I've never had my hands on a UNIBUS machine before. > > Potentially stupid question, but isn't this still a PDP-11/34a? Is there > such a thing as a PDP-11/34c? > > One place you might want to start is the PDP-11/34 User Manual at: > http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp11/ > > Zane > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 12 08:16:53 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:19 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: <15542.48642.46993.696505@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 12, 2002 06:59:14 am" Message-ID: <200204121317.g3CDHJNl002300@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > On April 12, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > The Trenton MVA office is in Trenton (ahem) right off of Route 1, > > > and is a fair distance from Edison where TCF is now held. There is > > > likely an MVA satellite office in Edison but I couldn't guess as to > > > where. I try to avoid Edison. > > > > What? You don't like Indian people? > > I'm fine with Indian people. It's just the whole "bullets flying > overhead" thing that I just can't get used to...and they tend not to > be fired by the Indian people. > > Weenie. ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" > St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill I only know of one DEC person who found a body in a parking lot while working overnight at a customer sight in Trenton. 8-( True story which involved an 11/70 so it's on topic. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 12 08:45:52 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <3CB64A76.E596BF8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > quantities. > It's not a he, it's a she. :) g. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 12 08:57:08 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: NEC Multispeed boot error... what now? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020412095708.007f39b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Rose, I still have my MultiSpeed (the original non-hard drive, non-back lit screen version). First you MUST have a good battery. I you don't want to buy a battery just for testing then you need to hook up a good regulated power supply (not a wall wart!) in place of the battery. The MultiSpeed that I have doesn't have the hard rive so I don't know if my DOS disk will work or not but it should at least get it to boot. I know where's there's a hard drive version of the MultiSpeed (MultiSpeed HD) and I may be able to get disks there. However IIRC the MultiSpeed is very IBM compatible and will boot and run IBM DOS. But IBM DOS won't have all the utilities. Joe At 04:07 PM 4/11/02 -0700, you wrote: > I am hoping you can send me in the right direction for restoring >this very old laptop that my father gave me. It is posting a message that >reads as follows: Fixed disk setup (1701) incomplete. Trying to >boot from A drive: Warning!! Fixed Disk Controller is bad or Low Power, > Can not boot up from fixed disk, insert system disk drive A or B… >Press any key when ready…. What precisely do I need to look >for when getting a system disk for this computer? It didn’t have >anything in the original bag it came with. The screen reads as follows >when I turn on the computer: Phoenix ROM BIOS Version 2.51 Copyright >© 1984,1985,1986 Phoenix Technologies, Inc. NEC Multispeed Please >offer any guidance you may have! Thanks for you time! Rose From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 12 08:48:25 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Documation D150 card reader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020412094825.00869100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:41 PM 4/11/02 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a source to get replacement belts and parts for this >reader? Have you tried a belting place? I use one called Florida Belting and they're pretty good and matching up old belts. Joe From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 12 08:49:33 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TFE - C64 Ethernet Cartridge (fwd) Message-ID: <200204121349.JAA17762@wordstock.com> > > We are proud to announce that we have designed and implemented a fully > working Ethernet adapter for the Commodore 64. We call our design TFE > - The Final Ethernet (a pun on the name of the TFC :-). It consists of the > Embedded Ethernet board from Systor Vest AS > (http://www.embeddedethernet.com/) and a single 74LS139 decoder chip > mounted on a custom made printed circuit board. > > To show off our card, we have connected a TFE-equipped C64 to the > Internet. It is running the uIP TCP/IP stack > (http://dunkels.com/adam/uip/) including the web server as well as a > real-time streaming audio server that streams audio sampled from the > Datasette player. It can be reached at http://tfe.c64.org/. > > More information, including pictures of the cartridge, PCB layouts, > and source code can be found at http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/. > > Note that this is not the same Ethernet adapter that Bo Zimmerman > talked about a few weeks ago. > > Adam Dunkels and Peter Eliasson > April 12, 2002 > > -- > Adam Dunkels > http://www.sics.se/~adam > > Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list > Like, this is too COOL!!!!!! Bryan From dave at kaleidosoft.com Fri Apr 12 08:55:07 2002 From: dave at kaleidosoft.com (Dave Babcock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Documation D150 card reader References: Message-ID: <008a01c1e229$ab137480$a77ba8c0@merlin> Sellam, There's a company in Florida (their name escapes me at the moment) whose whole purpose in life is to repair Documation card readers. They repaired the museum's and even loaned us another one to use for the IBM 1620 project. If anyone has or knows about spare parts, they will. I'm copying Lee Courtney on this mail because he was the one who made all the contacts with the company and will have their name, address and phone number. Good luck, DaveB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:41 PM Subject: Documation D150 card reader > > I have a Documation D150 card reader that I am trying to make operational. > I fired it up today and ran a card through, only to have a big black > streak get "printed" to the card. I thought this was odd, so I opened it > up and found several problems. > > The black streak was caused by the roller that pulls the card through the > slot. It's basically melted into a gooey ink-like mess. Actually, only > one side of it has melted. The other side is mostly intact, so I may be > able to just eliminate the melted side and still use this roller. It > looks like this: > > __ __ > | \/ | > ==| |== <-- spindle > |__/\__| > > ^- one side melted > > Then there is a rubber gasket that was around a disc that was situated > perpendicular to the way the card slides through. This roller dried up > and crumbled into several different pieces. > > ^ > card goes in this way ---> and the rubber disk spun this way | > | > > I think the purpose of this roller was to push the card against the guide > so that it goes through the reader straight. > > Then there are two toothed belts driving cams from motors. One of them > got completely obliterated. The radial threads inside the belt got > wrapped around the drive cam and left a gooey residue on it. The other > belt is still in tact but very gooey, and is probably going to go at some > point as well. I was able to get this code off of it: SDP 6R6-055018C > > I did a Google search but didn't turn anything up on this reader. > > Does anyone know of a source to get replacement belts and parts for this > reader? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Fri Apr 12 08:49:42 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: DC Metro (was: Questions regarding Tom Shoppa. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020412094942.00ddf2b0@pop1.epm.net.co> At 06:14 PM 4/11/02 -0400, you wrote: > Tim does live outside of Bethesda and one of the major metro >lines does go up through Bethesda. I'd guess that a lot of the >people that live in his area probably don't use it much though as >it's a pretty nice area and the closest metro stop is likely to be >far enough away to be at least a pain to use regularly. > Jeff If there's a park&ride lot, the metro is probably a much better option than commuting into the dreaded beltway. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 12 08:57:38 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: References: <3CB64A76.E596BF8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > quantities. > It's not a he, it's a she. :) or inbetween ? C64 guys are somewhat strange ... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 09:00:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <20020412131329.A15380@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> Message-ID: <004201c1e22a$71754860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> >From what I read from time to time, it's not going to be long before those software tools determine the optimal hardware configuration, hardware/software interface, and then compile your application, including all the optimal hardware characteristics and configure your hardware to assume that configuration. I don't know what that does to multitasting. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thilo Schmidt" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:13 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 02:05:40AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > [a fine text about the AMD2900 series] > Thanks for the introduction, again learned something... :-) > > > > You think of a specific Microcode-Machine with a well > > > defined Microcode-Language and probably very sophisticated > > > tools. > > > > You mean you don't just write the microcode in binary :-)... (Seriously, > > I have done this once...) > Well, all microcode I've written was in binary but it was only > as an exercise. Today it's easier to grab some GAL or FPGA, > write some VHDL or Verilog and let the tools do the rest. > > bye > > Thilo > > > > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Apr 12 09:05:26 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) References: Message-ID: <002901c1e22b$280c7260$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) > On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts wrote: Sorry, wrong FROM line, been sending a lot of traffic from that one lately.... > got it working.. cool.. > now to learn vms ;) > I have no idea realy on how to use this system unfortunatly I am quite > used to the way UNIX works (ducks) and VMS is so differnt. does anyone > know a good site for VMS newbies? The VMS FAQ is a good reference. At the prompt on your machine HELP (like MAN only more useful;^) The directory structure will probably have you scratching your head if you are a unix type. For a start, there is no common root, each device (disk/tape) has a root directory. path is along the lines of DUA0:[000000] for the root directory of drive 0. DOS style DIR works, but CD doesn't the VMS equivalent is SET DEFAULT which is a bit tedious, but you can define an alias for it. There are also utils that will pretty much give you a CD command. full path to a file goes like this: DUA0:[dir.subdir.subdir]filename.extension;version number. DU is disk unit A means it's the first identified controller 0 is the number of the drive on the controller. Tapes are usually MU cd's normally DU. VMS will produce multiple versions of the same file name, very handy when you find you stuffed up SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM (sorta like autoexec.bat). A .COM file is a DCL Script, like a unix shell script in a lot of ways, though probably more powerful. You run a .com file by preceding it with an @ sign. so to run reboot.com you would type @ reboot.com or @reboot. Binary executables are .EXE files, and need to be preceded with the RUN command, also you can't use command line switches with RUN so you need to define an alias for the EXE file, then you can use switches with the alias. Equivalent to unix ROOT is SYSTEM as you have discovered, unlike unix, there are not just two levels of user but everything from read only in a small area to full access to everything, and every variant inbetween. Vaguely reminscent of netware permissions in a way. (Bindery not NDS) Terminal config is via the SET TERMINAL command. SHO TERMINAL will give you the current config of your terminals. Most of the configuration files are in the SYS$MANAGER directory. System EXE files are in SYS$SYSTEM which live on SYS$SYSDEVICE which is the boot drive. These are all system Logicals so you can SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM and it will take you there. There is an edt command but it's ugly, there is a better editor called EVE that works a bit like the dos edit function, it may well be configured already. SHO DEFAULT will show you the name of the current directory. SHO SYSTEM will tell you what processes are running, SHO DEV D will show the status of disks. That should give you a kickstart at least. Any questions drop me a line. CAVEAT: I'm not professionally trained in VMS, though I now manage a VMS system at work, like you I got one dropped in my lap and learned how to drive it, then moved it to my workplace where it's lived happily since. My first vax was rather bigger than yours though :^) You are fortunate to have the docs, the VMS doc set is very good and if you work your way through the system managers manual, the start is "Installing and maintaining a system"(something like that anyway) and it will give you a good walkthrough of it. One other thing, I'll be away on a detachment from the 15th to the 28th (with a brief visit back home on Anzac Day) so email will be on hold til I get back. Will probably sift through some on the eve of the 24th, but might not get time. > Anyway, I am not sure what I am going to do with this machine yet, I may > end up installing Net or Open BSD NetBSD is the only supported one on Vaxen AFAIK. These boxes are happiest with VMS. You can also run DECWindows which is essentially X11 either on DECNET or TCP/IP or both. > on the beast, so I can get it talking to > the rest of my network here which is a linux box, a Mac (running OS X) and > My sgi... VMS 6.1 has UCX which is Digitals VMS stack. Or there are third party things. I think there is also a DECNET client for Linux. Used to be one for macs too, I have a Webster Appletalk/Ethernet Gateway that speaks DECNET as well as TCP/IP and Appletalk/Localtalk. > anyway thanks for your help.... so far so so good.. Anytime. Cheers Geoff From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 12 09:21:55 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> Message-ID: > > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > > quantities. > > > It's not a he, it's a she. :) > > or inbetween ? > Not a chance. From the pictures at http://www.commodoreone.com, she's a cute little wisp of a girl. :) g. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 12 09:24:18 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Digital Printronix P300? for sale Message-ID: Anybody need a small, lightweight, fast line printer? If so, delete this post. :) We got in 2 printers yesterday that are DEC badged on front, but the only other info I can find is a Printronix label on the pedestal designating it a P300. I guess Printronix built printers for DEC? Anyway, they are pristine. I haven't unwrapped the pallets they're on, but judging by the condition of the computer that drove them, I'll bet even the ribbon is good. They're available for sale, not by me. If you need one and are willing to arrange shipping, contact me off list. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 09:35:00 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (Gene Buckle) References: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> Message-ID: <15542.61588.33230.502082@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > > > quantities. > > > > > It's not a he, it's a she. :) > > > > or inbetween ? > > > Not a chance. From the pictures at http://www.commodoreone.com, she's a > cute little wisp of a girl. :) I wasn't going to mention it...but yes, quite cute indeed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 09:35:27 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (Gene Buckle) References: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> Message-ID: <15542.61615.968053.714169@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > > > quantities. > > > > > It's not a he, it's a she. :) > > > > or inbetween ? > > > Not a chance. From the pictures at http://www.commodoreone.com, she's a > cute little wisp of a girl. :) I wasn't going to mention it...but yes, quite cute indeed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 12 09:39:28 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001a01c1e1e3$ae5c60c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB6F1A0.79B88E07@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Using a PROM to implement a combinatorial path has always been the most costly > way to do it. I don't think it was as common as you suggest. Such an > application is likely to lead to very sparse ROM utilization. The ROM has a > fixed Or and fixed AND array, hence has to have many more registers in it than > a programmable logic device capable of the same logic, and, likewise, many > more than the equivalent logic implemented discretely in SSI/MSI logic. How ever the ROM does contain ALL the possible states compared to PAL's or discrete logic. BTW B.G micro does sell 74LS170's, and AM2901's. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 12 09:53:02 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: Message-ID: <3CB6F4CE.8E0DC9D2@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: > > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > quantities. > > > It's not a he, it's a she. :) > > g. Well that goof sort of kills a date with her :). Sorry about that.Mind you I just glanced at the email and web site and did not notice a sex or name even. Just read the stats. I am not a 6502 fan but rather a 6809 fan but I would prefer 24 bit machines if one could get one. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 12 10:08:04 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed References: <20020411221844.A24335@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3CB6F854.D22A46FF@jetnet.ab.ca> Derek Peschel wrote: > The OS/8 handbook for the PDP-8 discusses formatting of data tapes. > > Probably many others that I don't know about. There's also the subject > of reading (and booting from) punch cards but never mind that for now. > * a sample bootstrap for the 8080 * from a VDM-1 manual * starts at 0 and loads 256 bytes of data and jumps to start when done beg lxi h,start sphl mov c,h call in cpi 7fh jnz beg chrin dcr c jz start call in mov m,a inx h jmp chrin in in sport get char status ani smask check status jz in in dport get char ret ds 2 stack space start * program goes here -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Fri Apr 12 10:18:31 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB6F1A0.79B88E07@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Well, googling to see what a 'LS170 was, I found this place that has them, along with a 'LS181! Even at a decent price, too. http://www.web-tronics.com/ls181.html Looks like I found a new IC supplier :). Of course, they don't say that they're _in_stock_, but I'm willing to bet they do carry them. -- Pat On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Using a PROM to implement a combinatorial path has always been the most costly > > way to do it. I don't think it was as common as you suggest. Such an > > application is likely to lead to very sparse ROM utilization. The ROM has a > > fixed Or and fixed AND array, hence has to have many more registers in it than > > a programmable logic device capable of the same logic, and, likewise, many > > more than the equivalent logic implemented discretely in SSI/MSI logic. > > How ever the ROM does contain ALL the possible states compared to PAL's > or discrete logic. > BTW B.G micro does sell 74LS170's, and AM2901's. > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 12 10:29:13 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <15542.61615.968053.714169@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (Gene Buckle) Message-ID: <3CB71969.14957.56762232@localhost> > > > > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > > > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > > > > quantities. > > > > It's not a he, it's a she. :) > > > or inbetween ? > > Not a chance. From the pictures at http://www.commodoreone.com, she's a > > cute little wisp of a girl. :) > I wasn't going to mention it...but yes, quite cute indeed. Well, I wouldn't considere them a proof. Anyway, we're getting OT Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Apr 12 10:31:47 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <003501c1e1e6$f2231e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: > > Or 1/2 as an inverter for an xtal oscillator and 1/2 for div/2 > > (had to do that one to avoid using 1 more package) > > > I'd like to see how that works! ground /reset /set is input Q is out > > I was, just yesterday, looking at a circuit trying to figure out how to use > half a 74HC393 as an inverter in order to avoid adding a package. > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 10:54:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001a01c1e1e3$ae5c60c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB6F1A0.79B88E07@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001701c1e23a$75293560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:39 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Using a PROM to implement a combinatorial path has always been the most costly > > way to do it. I don't think it was as common as you suggest. Such an > > application is likely to lead to very sparse ROM utilization. The ROM has a > > fixed Or and fixed AND array, hence has to have many more registers in it than > > a programmable logic device capable of the same logic, and, likewise, many > > more than the equivalent logic implemented discretely in SSI/MSI logic. > > How ever the ROM does contain ALL the possible states compared to PAL's > or discrete logic. > It doesn't help having all the unused states represented in your ROM. Discrete implementations and programmable devices both cover all the REQUIRED states, and having other states supported is certainly unnecessary, as well as potentially hazardous. > > BTW B.G micro does sell 74LS170's, and AM2901's. I've not needed a '170 in over two decades. I do have a supply of '670's, which are the tristate version of the same device, and I just this week finished an application using a couple of them in a display application. They're pretty handy when you have no synchronization between the inputs and outputs, and, as was the case in this 7-segment display device, when your inputs are byte-wide, and outputs are nybble-wide. > -- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 12 11:42:00 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change Message-ID: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Greetings; FYI - at some point in the not too distant future (read weeks) I want to move the classiccmp list onto a different machine (but same location). This isn't being done for cpu/memory load or bandwidth reasons, it's mainly for logistical reasons. So - one machine will be dedicated to handling all classiccmp list traffic and that is all it will do. Right now the machine the list is on is also one of several doing backup DNS and mail for the ISP. Once the classiccmp stuff is moved it will also be shadowed by some of our other servers, but the primary server will be dedicated to classiccmp. I am perfectly willing to subsidize the entire cost of the hardware for the new machine. However, I am also willing to accept any donations of cash or hardware to cover the cost. I will host the machine and maintain it always for free, but the initial hardware would be nice to get some help with (although not required!). Here are the components and costs. If anyone has any of the components to spare and is willing to donate them, great - or if you want to kick in some cash to defray the cost - great too. But whatever people don't cover, I'm willing to cover myself even if it is the entire amount. ASUS micro-ATX motherboard with built in video and network interface: $65.00 Intel celeron 1.2ghz $80 Teac Floppy: $10 IDE CD-ROM: $30 256mb RAM: $80 30gb ultra IDE hard drive: $0 (I already have this sitting around, but a 2nd to mirror might be nice) 1U rackmount chassis: $150 In order to address the previously discussed issues of [offlist] tags and html rejection, as well as because of a lot of other nifty features, I'm also considering using mailman. It gives a wonderfull web interface for those that want to do their subscribes/unsubscribes & the like on their own. Yes, it still supports email subscribtion requestions. Basically, it gives me a lot of flexibility and options that majordomo doesn't. Not sure about this all yet. Thanks! Jay West From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 12 11:46:21 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001a01c1e1e3$ae5c60c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB6F1A0.79B88E07@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c1e23a$75293560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB70F5D.C07E1F91@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > It doesn't help having all the unused states represented in your ROM. > Discrete implementations and programmable devices both cover all the REQUIRED > states, and having other states supported is certainly unnecessary, as well as > potentially hazardous. The advantage of a prom it is easier to change than hard wiring, provided you have a programer. Since I am having problems with getting my FPGA cpu a serial prom I just may endup using TTL and hard wiring the logic. If nothing else it looks impressive on several boards.:) > > > > BTW B.G micro does sell 74LS170's, and AM2901's. > > I've not needed a '170 in over two decades. I do have a supply of '670's, > which are the tristate version of the same device, and I just this week > finished an application using a couple of them in a display application. > They're pretty handy when you have no synchronization between the inputs and > outputs, and, as was the case in this 7-segment display device, when your > inputs are byte-wide, and outputs are nybble-wide. > > -- Ok then how about some NICE NIXIE TUBES then (grin). -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 12 11:53:36 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Anyone know... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843F8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > can also use the conv=noerror option to ignore read errors if you > > really want whatever data you can get. > Um, I've not been successful with that option in Linux or in NetBSD. > I've tried it reading from damaged tape and from damaged CD media. dd > will keep trying... to read the same unreadable block. > If I missed the way around that, I'd really like to know. I'm not sure. I was under the impression that the errors were ignored and it kept going. This did make a good (AFAIK ;) copy of a disk that had some problems once for me... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 12 11:54:55 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Half on, half off -- New CD-R drive and 512-byte blocks Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843F9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > didn't answer my email, and I really didn't feel like > playing telephone > > games trying to find the right number ;) > That's a darn good reason not to buy _anything_, in my world. But I > do like Plextor readers. They're much faster in large reads than > equally-rated other brands, and they seem to get a better sound out of > music CDs. Plus, they'll boot darned near anything. I like them too -- I waited a month and a half for somebody to talk to me about buying one... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 12 12:11:20 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017843FB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts [mailto:co.614sqn@aafc.adfc.gov.au] > I think that means you may have a console password enabled. > Um. Bad karma. > There is an alternate procedure in the VMS System Management Manual > involving SYSUAFALT > you could give that a go. There's also an alternate alternate procedure that would involve not running sys$system:startup.com or whatever, and just trying to run "authorize," installing the proper images until it stops complaining about not having them ;) Of course, that's the long way around. The point is that if you've gotten as far as actually running that script, you can pretty much do whatever you like. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Apr 12 12:46:14 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed References: Message-ID: <3CB71D66.391BE109@gifford.co.uk> Bill Richman wrote: > I've been doing some web searching and reading the "TV Typewriter" > book concerning puched tape encoding schemes, and I'm a bit confused. ... > while having the reader software ignore them, I'd like to follow some > kind of established standard. Can anyone give me any pointers on > this? I can tell you about the MOS Technology paper tape format, as used by the KIM-1 and some other 6502-based machines. It's also a format that some EPROM programmers accept, but unlike Motorola S-Records, it's limited to a 16-bit address space. http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/mosptp.htm This format is used by the Compukit UK101's Extended Monitor. The UK101 documentation calls it "checksum format". -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Apr 12 12:49:01 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665C1@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Christopher Smith wrote: > >There's also an alternate alternate procedure that would involve not >running sys$system:startup.com or whatever, and just trying to run >"authorize," installing the proper images until it stops complaining >about not having them ;) I suppose if you are a masochist, yes :-) The original poster seems to have missed the required $ SET NOON That should be the first thing you type, without that the first error bombs you out and you get to boot all over again ... It looks like he just didn't know that at the Username: prompt, if you have managed to boot with SYSUAFALT (and the startup files don't plug this hole! ... which is the reason for the long-winded crack anyway) then as long as it's the console and as long as you enter SYSTEM you just need to hit RETURN (well anything really) for both the password prompts and you are in. Copious details at: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html and plenty of docs at http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ (OpenVMS User's manual is probably a good one to start with). Be nice to see that list of docs ... Antonio From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 12 12:59:56 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change References: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CB7209C.5020608@internet1.net> Jay, I have an IDE 32X Teac cd-rom that you can have. Where should I ship to? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jay West wrote: > ASUS micro-ATX motherboard with built in video and network interface: $65.00 > Intel celeron 1.2ghz $80 > Teac Floppy: $10 > IDE CD-ROM: $30 > 256mb RAM: $80 > 30gb ultra IDE hard drive: $0 (I already have this sitting around, but a 2nd > to mirror might be nice) > 1U rackmount chassis: $150 From sieler at allegro.com Fri Apr 12 13:06:32 2002 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <3CB452BB.27673.E0043A@localhost> Message-ID: <3CB6BFB8.31483.FABF0E8@localhost> Re: n Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > It seems you can also use it on a PCjr and DEC Rainbow, and I imagine any > > 8088 box. > > Not all. > It would NOT work as an 8088 replacement in a Gavilan (where lower power > consumption would have been a plus) It (NEC V-20) would work replacing the 8088 in an HP 150 ... did that, wrote an article on it (for "The HP Chronicle"). Still have that HP 150 somewhere. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Fri Apr 12 13:17:10 2002 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Amiga haul in Topeka In-Reply-To: <3CB53FA2.154A9857@ccp.com> Message-ID: <3CB6C236.336.FB5ACE2@localhost> Re: > I made contact with an employee of Kansas Computer Recycling Corp. in > Topeka. The conversation drifted to my favorite subject, and he said Interesting...some years ago (5? 7?) I donated my Amiga 2000 to a hospital in Kansas, that had a large network of Amigas in active use. I wonder if their Amigas ended up at KCRC? (I have no idea if the hospital did any video work (e.g., toaster user).) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 13:28:04 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003101c1e24f$c9000500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Amazing! That should actually work! I've NEVER seen this done. I doubt it's applicable to my problem with the '393, though, since it has no direct set, but it might work with a other dual counters. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:31 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Or 1/2 as an inverter for an xtal oscillator and 1/2 for div/2 > > > (had to do that one to avoid using 1 more package) > > > > > I'd like to see how that works! > > ground /reset > /set is input > Q is out > > > > > > I was, just yesterday, looking at a circuit trying to figure out how to use > > half a 74HC393 as an inverter in order to avoid adding a package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 13:30:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001a01c1e1e3$ae5c60c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB6F1A0.79B88E07@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c1e23a$75293560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB70F5D.C07E1F91@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003b01c1e250$1f00ed20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm afraid that the Nixies are too large for this handheld application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:46 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > It doesn't help having all the unused states represented in your ROM. > > Discrete implementations and programmable devices both cover all the REQUIRED > > states, and having other states supported is certainly unnecessary, as well as > > potentially hazardous. > The advantage of a prom it is easier to change than hard wiring, > provided you have a programer. Since I am having problems with getting > my FPGA cpu a serial prom I just may endup using TTL and hard wiring the > logic. If nothing else it looks impressive on several boards.:) > > > > > > > BTW B.G micro does sell 74LS170's, and AM2901's. > > > > I've not needed a '170 in over two decades. I do have a supply of '670's, > > which are the tristate version of the same device, and I just this week > > finished an application using a couple of them in a display application. > > They're pretty handy when you have no synchronization between the inputs and > > outputs, and, as was the case in this 7-segment display device, when your > > inputs are byte-wide, and outputs are nybble-wide. > > > -- > > Ok then how about some NICE NIXIE TUBES then (grin). > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From mythtech at mac.com Fri Apr 12 13:33:42 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 Message-ID: > The Trenton MVA office is in Trenton (ahem) right off of Route 1, and >is a fair distance from Edison where TCF is now held. There is likely >an MVA satellite office in Edison but I couldn't guess as to where. I >try to avoid Edison. Well.. I guess if the Trenton computer fest is really held in Edison... then it doesn't really matter where the Trenton DMV is. Alas, hitting the Edison DMV is useless. NJ only allows you to do the initial NF (No Fee) registrations in person and in the Trenton DMV office (they are the only one with the NF plates, and for some reason, they require it to be in person rather than by mail). -chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 13:43:11 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 In-Reply-To: Re: Reminder: TCF 2002, May 4 and 5 (Chris) References: Message-ID: <15543.10943.284757.588466@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, Chris wrote: > > The Trenton MVA office is in Trenton (ahem) right off of Route 1, and > >is a fair distance from Edison where TCF is now held. There is likely > >an MVA satellite office in Edison but I couldn't guess as to where. I > >try to avoid Edison. > > Well.. I guess if the Trenton computer fest is really held in Edison... > then it doesn't really matter where the Trenton DMV is. When it was started, it was held at the Trenton State College campus in West Trenton. Then it moved to the campus of Mercer County Community College (*after* I moved out of the apartment that was nearly walking distance from there!)...now the Edison thing. > Alas, hitting the Edison DMV is useless. NJ only allows you to do the > initial NF (No Fee) registrations in person and in the Trenton DMV office > (they are the only one with the NF plates, and for some reason, they > require it to be in person rather than by mail). Yup. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 12 14:16:01 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Amiga haul in Topeka In-Reply-To: <3CB53FA2.154A9857@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020412141510.03225938@pc> At 02:47 AM 4/11/2002 -0500, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >I made contact with an employee of Kansas Computer Recycling Corp. in >Topeka. >Well they did have them. I went home with 15 Toaster cards, 5 Flyer >cards, 18 Ethernet cards (extremely rare and pricey), 4 68040 accerator >cards, and a plethora of other goodies. Must've been the remains of NewTek's Topeka office. They'd left for Texas many years ago. You didn't say what you paid for them... :-) - John From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 12 14:57:07 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> <15542.61615.968053.714169@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CB73C13.7040508@dragonsweb.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 12, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>>>>the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic >>>>>chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype >>>>>quantities. >>>> >>>>It's not a he, it's a she. :) >>> >>>or inbetween ? >>> >> >>Not a chance. From the pictures at http://www.commodoreone.com, she's a >>cute little wisp of a girl. :) > > > I wasn't going to mention it...but yes, quite cute indeed. > > -Dave > Absolutely. The thing is, I look at her work, and I tend to forget or not care about that. I'm getting an inferiority complex, in fact. Bet she's dreading slashdot, though :-) jbdigriz From alan.townsend at exgate.tek.com Fri Apr 12 14:57:09 2002 From: alan.townsend at exgate.tek.com (alan.townsend@exgate.tek.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: PC MOS to PC DOS Message-ID: How do I transfer data created by PC MOS in order for PC DOS (or windows) to be able to read it ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/cce106c0/attachment.html From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 12 15:07:43 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. References: Message-ID: <3CB73E8F.BAB5854@compsys.to> >Doc wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Does anyone have the pinout for the db25 console port? Assuming that > > the 25-pin bulkhead connector marked "Console" is a serial console port? > > Well, with some help from Emanuel and an old post by Douglas Gwyn, I > figured out that the 11/93's console is a "standard" RS232 serial port. > The bulkhead DIP switches were set such that the console port was > disabled, which threw me for a while, and one of my DB25-MMJ adapters > has died, which threw me off for a _long_ while, but I finally got a > boot monitor, and then brought up the OS. RSX-11M+ > Drat. I was hoping for Windows 2000. Jerome Fine replies: Why would you want to run a "MODERN" operating system like Windows 2000? After all, it has an up-time measured in decades and is not susceptible to attack by a virus or a worm. In addition it only uses a couple of hundred MBytes for the operating system files. And finally, there are very few bugs. Not like that really dumb operating system that DEC (oops - Compaq) has available free to hobby users called VMS. I hear the VMS usually crashes once a day and is easily attacked by software bugs since it has no hardware protection like execute only and read only memory. Of course you are not able to run VMS under an emulator. So you must use real hardware under the hobby license and run on a real VAX or real Alpha hardware. By the way, can you tell me the location of those files which helped? I have an M8981-AA which I hope to receive the Qbus cab kit for eventually. > Damn thing didn't come with ethernet, either. But you can buy a DECnet license for so little for RSX-11M-PLUS although an ethernet board might be available for free via a trade. > > Also, I understand that a M8981-AA is a 2M board > > and a -BA is a 4M > board. How do I find out which? > Boot monitor says 4M, but I had already figured that out from the > little barcode sticker on the BA23. It says "*11Z93-BA*" And that extra 2 MBytes of memory was also extremely low in price when DEC was still selling the 11/93 module. I seem to remember that the 4 MByte board was ONLY about $ US 2000 more than the 2 MByte board. Can anyone remember how much a 4 MByte 30 pin SIMM cost when they were new? I have a few lying around to show to my great-great-grandchildren. Some even use 4 MBit DRAM although most are the less expensive type that use 16 MBit DRAM. > So will this guy boot from Tim Shoppa's RT-11 CD? NO! The RT-11 Freeware CD from Tim Shoppa does NOT contain any RT-11 distributions. Sorry. Do you want me to send you one? Which version of RT-11? Do you have a CDROM drive on the real PDP-11 hardware that is able to read 512 byte blocks? If you already have a file under Windows 98 that is able to boot RT-11 under Ersatz-11, I have found that Nero Burning can copy that file under the "Burn Image" option to the CD - including the first 64 blocks which the ISO file structure ignores - or so I am told. Now that is an extremely interesting thought. Since RT-11 only needs the first 8 blocks to set up a file structure, it might be possible to write a DSK file under the ISO file structure that could be used by Ersatz-11 via the command: MOUNT DU1: I:RT11V5.3/RONLY but also the command MOUNT DU0: CDROMI:/RONLY if Ersatz-11 could ever manage to access those 64 blocks like MOUNT DU0: SCSI4:/RONLY can do in the commercial version. Since I can look at those 64 blocks (actually 16 2048 byte sectors) under Nero Burning, maybe there are special requests to Windows 98 that Ersatz-11 is not aware of that will allow access to the first 64 blocks of the CD even with the MOUNT DU0: CDROMI:/RONLY command. > Doc, who is thrilled beyond belief Now that I can understand. Enjoy the 11/93. But don't expect the hype from DEC to be valid as far as speed is concerned. Based on just a few measurements I once made, the 11/93 CPU speed seems to be about twice as fast as an 11/73. A MACRO-11 file took about this many seconds using VM: (all in memory): 11/73 11/83 11/93 270 180 135 Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 15:13:36 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (James B. DiGriz) References: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> <15542.61615.968053.714169@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CB73C13.7040508@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <15543.16368.719339.395003@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > I wasn't going to mention it...but yes, quite cute indeed. > > Absolutely. The thing is, I look at her work, and I tend to forget or > not care about that. I'm getting an inferiority complex, in fact. Me to, for the latter anyway. I don't forget...it just makes me wonder if she's single. ;) > Bet she's dreading slashdot, though :-) Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs she's never met. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 12 15:39:36 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 References: <20020411195739.36812.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CB74608.98E840A5@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > With regard to RT-11, I have a request - does anyone think it > > is worthwhile to keep track of and have a centralized location > > which records as many of the current RT-11 bugs as possible? > I am not a current RT-11 user (I used to make my living with it about > 14 years ago and I still have it sitting around the house), but I am > interested in anything that improves it. Jerome Fine replies: Likewise as far as the improvement aspect is concerned. Actually, A long, long time ago in a Galaxy far away, there used to be an RT-11 WISH list. Maybe that could be something else to be used as as guide. Is anyone interested? Maybe a new WISH list with a short list of most important items could be developed? > I have no bugs to share, but I would love to go to a central place to > see what's wrong, should I ever start playing with RT-11 again. If > someone else is willing to do the collection and list maintenance, > I may eventually become a consumer of the data, but it's not in my face > enough to be a contributor at this time. I have attempted to determine if Mentec even has such a list, let alone if Mentec is willing to make the list public. So far no response. Of course, the really important question is how the bugs will get fixed. Well, I can answer that question. If Mentec does not decide to fix the bugs free of charge, then I will do so. I will also keep the list and set up a site to make it available unless Mentec wishes to make such a list public and available on their web site. If there are any restrictions on the access to such a list or the list does not accept all contributions and clearly specify the nature of the bug, then a list which does not depend on Mentec nor is controlled by Mentec seems more appropriate. As for the first bug I want to put on the list, MACRO-11 does not conform to the ISO standard since it uses ONLY 2 digit years. As far as I know, the version released in the V5.06 distribution of RT-11 has not changed with V5.07 of RT-11. Does anyone else have a bug or two? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 12 15:58:42 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: PC MOS to PC DOS References: Message-ID: <3CB74A82.57E07FFC@rain.org> Since PC-MOS was only used as a primitive network, I don't understand the question. What is to stop you from just copying whatever it is that you want? > alan.townsend@exgate.tek.com wrote: > > How do I transfer data created by PC MOS in order for PC DOS (or > windows) to be able to read it ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 13:29:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001001c1e1e1$6eb177a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 2 11:18:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/fbb75669/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 13:15:12 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed In-Reply-To: from "Bill Richman" at Apr 11, 2 11:24:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2035 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/597b242c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 13:43:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001a01c1e1e3$ae5c60c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 2 11:34:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/314fa2ae/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 13:56:10 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002201c1e1e5$6c9d67e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 2 11:46:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3454 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/1415557e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 14:38:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <20020412063003.17575.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 11, 2 11:30:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/2179ce65/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 15:02:28 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:20 2005 Subject: HP IPC (update) In-Reply-To: <200204120855.EAA26403@king.mcs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Apr 12, 2 04:55:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6598 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/6250fe03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 15:10:01 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <20020412113548.A21206@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de> from "Thilo Schmidt" at Apr 12, 2 11:35:48 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2845 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020412/b863f81a/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 12 16:09:52 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784401@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome H. Fine [mailto:jhfinepw4z@compsys.to] > As for the first bug I want to put on the list, MACRO-11 does > not conform to the ISO standard since it uses ONLY 2 digit There's an ISO MACRO-11? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Apr 12 16:14:11 2002 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Digital Printronix P300? for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doc, Where are you? I might be interested for the right price/location. DEC OEM'd the LXY11 (and LXY21, IIRC) printers from Printronix. The LXY11 was a rebadged P300 while the LXY21? was a rebadged P600. John At 7:24 AM -0700 4/12/02, Doc Shipley wrote: > Anybody need a small, lightweight, fast line printer? > If so, delete this post. :) > We got in 2 printers yesterday that are DEC badged on front, but the >only other info I can find is a Printronix label on the pedestal >designating it a P300. I guess Printronix built printers for DEC? > > Anyway, they are pristine. I haven't unwrapped the pallets they're >on, but judging by the condition of the computer that drove them, I'll >bet even the ribbon is good. They're available for sale, not by me. If >you need one and are willing to arrange shipping, contact me off list. > > Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 12 16:48:17 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Digital Printronix P300? for sale References: Message-ID: <003a01c1e26b$c26ebda0$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote... >>I guess Printronix built printers for DEC? Printronix built printers for EVERYONE. I have seen Printronix printers with pretty much every computer vendors badge on it you can think of. Most of the printronix band printers were real workhorses - you could darn near drop them off a cliff and they would keep working forever. I believe I have a real printronix conversion kit for one of these... the kit either changes it from dataproducts interface to centronics parallel, or from centronics parallel to serial, I forget which. I think I might have a P300 service manual too. Jay West From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Fri Apr 12 17:00:11 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665C1@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > > Christopher Smith wrote: > > > >There's also an alternate alternate procedure that would involve > not > >running sys$system:startup.com or whatever, and just trying to run > >"authorize," installing the proper images until it stops > complaining > >about not having them ;) > > I suppose if you are a masochist, yes :-) > > The original poster seems to have missed > the required > $ SET NOON > > That should be the first thing you > type, without that the first error > bombs you out and you get to > boot all over again ... > > It looks like he just didn't know > that at the Username: prompt, > if you have managed to boot with > SYSUAFALT (and the startup files > don't plug this hole! ... which is > the reason for the long-winded > crack anyway) then as long as > it's the console and as long as > you enter SYSTEM you just need > to hit RETURN (well anything really) > for both the password prompts and > you are in. > > Copious details at: > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html > > and plenty of docs at > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ > > (OpenVMS User's manual is probably > a good one to start with). > > Be nice to see that list of docs ... > > Antonio > > Okay I have it now working, vms is weird, anyway here is a list of some of the documentation: volumes 3 to 10 of the programmers referance manuals. VMS Fortran Volumes 1 and 2 I am stil sorting it all out. there Is heaps... Benjamin From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Fri Apr 12 17:02:58 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: "Foundations of Microprogramming" Available in UK (Long) Message-ID: <3CB75992.65244448@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> I'm certainly not going to get involved in a discussion about PALs and FPGAs, but if anyone wants to know more about microprogrammed machines, I have a book which I will gladly trade for any interesting terminal manuals. Beware, it's over 400 pages of machines I've never heard of. Contents follows: ACM Monograph Series Foundations of Microprogramming: architecture, software and applications Ashok K. Agrawala and Tomlinson G. Rauscher Academic Press, Inc. 1976 ISBN 0-12-045150-6 Chapter 1 - Introduction to Microprogramming Concepts 1.1 Basic Computer Organization 1.1.1 Basic Hardware Resources 1.1.2 Control of Primitive Operations 1.1.3 Generation of Control Information 1.2 Evolution of Microprogramming 1.3 A Simple Microprogrammble Machine - An Example 1.4 Microprogramming and Programming 1.5 Microprogrammability 1.6 Microprogramming, Microprocessors, and Microcomputers Chapter 2 - Architectural Characteristics of Microprogrammed Computers 2.1 Introduction 2.2 Hardware Components 2.2.1 Overview of Hardware Components 2.2.2 Control Store Design 2.2.3 Arithmetic and Logic Unit Design 2.2.4 Local Store 2.2.5 Main Memory 2.2.6 Data Paths 2.2.7 Summary of the SMM 2.3 Microinstruction Design 2.3.1 Introduction 2.3.2 The Vertical-Horizontal Characteristics 2.3.3 The Encoding Characteristic 2.3.4 Microinstruction Design for the SMM 2.3.5 Microinstruction Sequencing 2.3.6 Residual Control 2.3.7 Control Store Literals 2.4 Microinstruction Implementation 2.4.1 Introduction 2.4.2 The Serial-Parallel Characteristics 2.4.3 The Monophase-Polyphase Characteristics Chapter 3 - Microprogramming Languages and Support Software 3.1 Introduction 3.2 Microprogramming Languages and their Translators 3.3 Simulators and their Implementation 3.4 Computer Description Languages Chapter 4 - Computers with Vertical Microinstructions 4.1 Introduction 4.2 The Standard Logic CASH-8 4.2.1 CASH-8 Background 4.2.2 CASH-8 Architecture 4.2.3 CASH-8 Microprogrammability 4.3 The Burroughs B1700 4.3.1 Burroughs B1700 Overview 4.3.2 B1726 Architecture 4.3.3 B1726 Microprogrammability 4.3.4 B1726 Microprogramming Language 4.3.5 Sample B1726 Microprograms Chapter 5 - Computers with Diagonal Microinstructions 5.1 Introduction 5.2 The Hewlett-Packard HP21MX 5.2.1 HP21MX Background 5.2.2 HP21MX Architecture 5.2.3 HP21MX Microprogrammability 5.2.4 HP21MX Microprogram Examples 5.2.5 Additional HP21MX Features 5.3 The Digital Scientific META 4 5.3.1 META 4 Background 5.3.2 META 4 Architecture 5.3.3 META 4 Microprogrammability 5.3.4 META 4 Examples 5.4 The INTERDATA Model 85 5.4.1 INTERDATA Model 85 Background 5.4.2 INTERDATA Model 85 Architecture 5.4.3 INTERDATA 85 Microprogrammability 5.4.4 INTERDATA 85 Microprogram Example 5.5 The Microdata 3200 5.5.1 Microdata 3200 Background 5.5.2 Microdata 3200 Architecture 5.5.3 Microdata 3200 Microprogrammability 5.5.4 Microdata 3200 Microprogram Example 5.6 Other Computers with Diagonal Microinstructions 5.6.1 The Datasaab FPU 5.6.2 The MLP-900 5.6.3 The CONTROL DATA 5600 5.6.4 The Data General ECLIPSE Chapter 6 - Computers with Horizontal Microinstructions 6.1 Introduction 6.2 The Cal Data Processor 6.2.1 Cal Data Background 6.2.2 Cal Data Architecture 6.2.3 Cal Data Microprogrammability 6.2.4 Cal Data Microprogram Example 6.3 The PRIME 300 6.3.1 PRIME 300 Background 6.3.2 PRIME 300 Architecture 6.3.3 PRIME 300 Microprogrammability 6.4 The Varian 73 6.4.1 Varian 73 Background 6.4.2 Varian 73 Architecture 6.4.3 Varian 73 Microprogrammability 6.4.4 Additional Varian 73 Features 6.5 The Nanodata QM-1 6.5.1 QM-1 Background 6.5.2 QM-1 Architecture 6.5.3 QM-1 Microprogrammability and Nanoprogrammability 6.5.4 QM-1 Examples 6.6 The Burroughs Interpreter 6.6.1 Interpreter Background 6.6.2 Interpreter Architecture 6.6.3 Interpreter Microprogrammability 6.6.4 Interpreter Examples 6.6.5 Interpreter Applications 6.7 The Argonne Microprocessor (AMP) 6.7.1 AMP Background 6.7.2 AMP Architecture 6.7.3 AMP Microprogrammability 6.7.4 AMP Example 6.7.5 AMP Experiences 6.8 MATHILDA 6.8.1 MATHILDA Background 6.8.2 MATHILDA Architecture 6.8.3 MATHILDA Microprogrammability 6.8.4 MATHILDA Example 6.8.5 Additional MATHILDA Features Chapter 7 - Developments in Microprogramming Languages 7.1 Introduction 7.2 Register Transfer Microprogramming Languages 7.3 Higher Level Machine-Dependent Languages 7.4 Higher Level Machine-Independent Languages 7.5 An Evaluation of Developments in Microprogramming Languages Chapter 8 - Applications of Microprogramming 8.1 Introduction 8.2 Emulation 8.3 Program Enhancement 8.4 Executing Higher Level Language Programs 8.5 Operating Systems 8.6 Signal Processing 8.7 Graphics 8.8 Microdiagnostics and Fault Tolerance 8.9 Other Applications of Microprogramming Chapter 9 - Perspective 9.1 Overview 9.2 The Past 9.3 The Present 9.4 The Future 9.5 Concluding Remarks From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 12 17:11:21 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784405@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Here's how I'd do it (to make an 8 * 1 bit fusible-fuse PROM). [snip] > The way it works is like this. Normaly the Rd/Pgm relay is in the Rd > state (as shown). In which case the sense relay is energised if the > selected fuse is intact. You can use the contacts of the > sense relay to > turn on/off a light bulb or something. Very close to what I imagined doing -- though, I hadn't gotten as far as an address decoder. :) Thanks. > To blow a fuse, select it with the decoder tree and then energise the > Rd/Pgm relay briefly. Enough current will flow via the > limiting resistor > to blow the selected fuse. When the Rd/Pgm relay returns to > the normal > position, there will no longer be a path to ground for the > bottom end of > the sense relay, so this relay will not be energised. Again -- a good plan. I was thinking about using a momentary switch for programming anyway, rather than anything more complex, so that fits exactly with what I wanted. > I am going to _have_ to make one of these just for fun.... I'm glad that I'm not the only one crazy enough to consider trying it. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de Fri Apr 12 17:17:09 2002 From: thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-Apr-2002 Tony Duell wrote: > I think what I've been trying to say for the last messages is that > microcoded systems are necessarily finite state machines (by any > reasonable definition) and that also the boundary between 'microcoded > machines' and 'any old finite state machine' is not that clear. And I've been trying to say that microcoded machines are just another way to describe finite state machines and what can be gained through this description... In fact the first thing I wrote was that they are mathematically equivalent. This whole discussion seems to have gotten slightly out of control... ;-) bye Thilo From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Apr 12 17:10:09 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: HP IPC (update) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:02:28 +0100 (BST)" References: Message-ID: <200204122210.g3CMA9t5026535@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote (after Vassilis Prevelakis): > > The built-in printer takes hp92261a print cartridges which (amazingly) > > Is this the Thinkjet cartridge (little clear plastic thing with a black > rubber ink sack inside)? If so, then the printer electronics is likely to > be close to the Thinkjet as well (see above for my comments on HPIL on > this, etc). Yes, the Integral takes Thinkjet cartridges. I think the Integral's printer is just a Thinkjet repackaged to fit in the top of an Integral, though it's been a while since I've looked at or inside an Integral and lately my memory for these sorts of details has gone to hell. -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 18:55:08 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001501c1e27d$7a1b8da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > I think that _any_ computer with finite memory (and that's all real > > > computers) cna be shown to be equivalent to a state machine. Things like > > > turing machines and PDAs [1] are only more powerful than state machines > > > because they have infinite memory. > > > > I must have slept through that class, since I've never been introduced to anything physical that's infinite, and I've never seen a computer that's not physical. I've seen machines that were virtual running on machines that are physical, and that's what a microcoded machine is. > > > I've argued that in the context of exhaustive system testing. Any computer, > > and, in fact, the worldwide computer resources, viewed as a system is still > > bounded, though very large, and could, in theory, be viewed as a finite state > > machine. I challenge you, however, to come up with a way to validate such a > > True... > > > system, whatever the size, using a computer, such that every possible > > combination of bits in mass storage, in semiconductor memory, and in inputs > > and outputs, is exercised and the system behavior rigorously characterized. > > Even exhaustively testing small (by today's standards) -capacity RAMs is > likely to be impossibe. You can't cycle through the 2^65536 states of a > 64K DRAM (Even at 1 state every us, it would take many times the age of > the universe!) > The 64K DRAMs I had only had 2^16 bits, each of which had two states. My old 6502 would test his RAM, static though it was, but still 64K of it, in the time it took me to consume a couple of beers, and I didn't get this gut from sipping 'em. > > > > > > > [1] Push-Down Automata. A state machine with an infinite stack linked up > > > to it. Not any other expansion of that acronym. > > > > > How do you create an infinite stack? I'd submit that if it has an infinite > > anything, it isn't a Finite State Machine. > > True... > > As I understand it, (and this is not really my field), there are several > theoretical constructions. These 'machines' are defined as accepting > 'words' (strings of characters) from a 'language' (a set of said strings) > and ending up in some internal state depending on which string we read. > > For example, a 'word' might be any string containing 'a's and 'b's only. > The strings the machine will 'accept' are those consisting of an > arbitrary number of 'a's followed by one 'b'. And we end up in one state > if we have an even number of 'a's before the 'b', a different state if we > have an odd number. > > This problem can be solved (IIRC) by a finite state machine, which (as > used here) is a theoretical concept very similar to the electronic state > machines we all know and love. > > But there are some problems an fsm can't solve. For example, consider > strings of an arbitary sequence of a's and b's. At any time I want to > know if the number of 'a's read is the same as the number of 'b's read. > That can't be handled by an fsm because essentially we need to keep a > count of 'a's. and this count could get arbitrarily large. There is no > way of making an infinite counter in an fsm. > Yes, but that's because there's no way of making an infinite counter. As for the business of counting, if you can have an infinitely long string of characters and an infinitely deep stack, then you can have an infinitely long counter, a state-machine in itself, and that can deal with your problem. > > So the fsm has been (theoretically) extended, by giving it infinite > memory in a sense. One way is to add an infinite stack (using the normal > definition of 'stack') onto which you can push characters and later pop > them off and act on what was popped. The rest of the machine is still a > fsm -- you've isolated the infinite part in the stack only. > Well, they don't build stacks that don't have counters in them, and those are FSM's. Until you can come up with a physical stack that's infinitely deep, this point is moot. > > This machine (called IIRC a PDA -- Push Down Automaton) can solve more > problems than the fsm, but there are still some it can't solve. > The detail that's been omitted is that you can't build a physical stack without a FSM, in the form of an up/down counter, since you otherwise haven't any means for manipulating the stack pointer. You can't have a infinite stack because you don't have an infinitely large memory, though some of the ones they sell nowadays, and what you're going to have to have for the next release of Windows, may seem that large. You can put terabytes of RAM in a box and address it as though it were a mass storage device, or as though it were a stack. It's up to you, but it's still finite, even if you have hundreds of exabytes. > > Then there's the Turing machine. Again, an fsm with infinite memory (the > 'tape), but memory that can be sequentially accessed one cell at a time. > I believe nobody has ever proposed a machine that's more powerful than > the turing machine. I also seem to remember that a PDA with _2_ separate > infinite stacks is proveably equivalent to a Turing machine. > > OK, those of you who actually learnt some computer science, please correct the above... > I see a major implementation problem, in that you throw around the word infinite quite freely. It's possible to build counters of 2^64 bits, and it's possible to hook up 64TB memory arrays, but it's still nowhere as large as infinite. Until you have an infinitely fast computer, it wouldn't make sense to have an infinite memory, since you wouldn't be able to test/verify whether/that your infinite stacks, or whatever, work properly. If you can't do that, it's not useable. > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 12 19:00:43 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <15543.16368.719339.395003@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 12, 2 04:13:36 pm" Message-ID: <200204130000.RAA17916@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs > she's never met. Actually, she already does and has publicly lamented about this before. Did I miss where you asked if she was cute, keeping in line with your trademark theme? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- You've got to have a gimmick if your band sucks. -- Gary Giddens ----------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 19:07:38 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (Cameron Kaiser) References: <15543.16368.719339.395003@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200204130000.RAA17916@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <15543.30410.208384.328723@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs > > she's never met. > > Actually, she already does and has publicly lamented about this before. Bummer. We should all have such problems. > Did I miss where you asked if she was cute, keeping in line with your > trademark theme? ;-) I already know she's cute. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 12 19:22:08 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Digital Printronix P300? for sale References: Message-ID: <003401c1e281$3fbb90c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I remember those paper grinders. A neat innovation in dot matricism. I never had to install one, what type interface did they use? John A. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 19:24:04 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001b01c1e281$84ed7e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Of course I do. It's just a somewhat larger ROM. You do realise that > > > _any_ combinatorial logic circuit can be implemented using a sufficiently > > > large ROM, right. So all I need to do is pick a large enough ROM to > > > contain the original microcode + the logic for the counter, etc. That's > > > now all in one ROM. I connect it to the state latch. It's now a state > > > machine. It's also, IMHO, the same microcoded system as the original design. > > > > > You're starting to mix questions of logic with questions of implementation. A > > True, in one sense. > > The point is, I am claiming (and still claim) that the system of 'control > store + microcode latch + mux + counter' can be considered to be just > another state machine, and I provided a way to turning it into the > classic implementation of a state machine. > > Agreed it doenn't really matter how it's implemented... > > > The term "microcoded" in the context in which I've seen it used for the past > > three decades has always meant that there's a small primitive computer running > > a small primitive instruction set, and it's used to implement, physically, the > > more complex structures of a larger system with a larger, more complex, > > instruction set and resources. This was a distinction between "microcode" and > > But it's possible to consider the inputs to a state machine as being the > 'instruction set' of that state machine (in fact, in Computer Theory, > that's _exactly_ how it's normally considered I believe). > > I think what I've been trying to say for the last messages is that > microcoded systems are necessarily finite state machines (by any > reasonable definition) and that also the boundary between 'microcoded > machines' and 'any old finite state machine' is not that clear. > At the risk of repeating myself, I'll say, again, it's a semantic quagmire ... It's true that they are, in a sense state machines, though I'd guess that they're actually a combination of several or even many state machines. You've not only mixed issues of logic with issues of implementation but also mixed what "could" be with what is or has been. While there's a lot of discussion possible, as you've shown, regarding the definition of "microcode" it's only fair to warn you that what you've pointed out could be, is in the subjunctive, and that the definition that has, in fact, been adopted by convention differs form what could have been. As I said in a previous post, nomenclature has been driven largely by design practice rather than by theory, and that folks, therefore, refer to state machines as little thingies that live in a PAL or consist of a PROM, registers, and some combo logic. We talk about Moore machines and Mealy machines, and think in terms of 24-pin PALs, not in terms of 12"x15" boards, as one might envision when discussing a microcoded CPU. > > > > Well, I thought the combinatorial part of the state machine was also > > > implemented using a ROM. It's certainly possible to do this (and at one > > > time it was very common). > > > > > Using a PROM to implement a combinatorial path has always been the most costly > > way to do it. I don't think it was as common as you suggest. Such an > > It probably depends on the time period and the manufacturer. Certainly > I've worked on devices containing state machines built in that way. Or > perhaps you don't want to call them state machines ;-) > > > application is likely to lead to very sparse ROM utilization. The ROM has a > > fixed Or and fixed AND array, hence has to have many more registers in it than > > One conculsion you can draw from this is that there are therefore > combinatorial functions you can implement in the PROM that you can't > implement in the PAL. One trivial example : It's not hard to program a > 4*4 (giving 8 bit product) multiplication table into a 256 byte PROM. It > is (I believe) impossible to do the same using a 10L8 PAL. > That's a lookup table, however, and not a multiplier, and terribly inefficient. By way of contrast, it is straightforward enough to build a 32x32 multiplier into a sincle CPLD/FPGA of reasonable proportions. I doubt that it's easy to build a ROM lookup table capable of accomplishing the same thing into a ROM. As for the small multiplier, I think the TTL part that does that is a 74S274 or thereabouts. It's a wallace tree multiplier, and the basic unit was, I think, 4x4. There's also a '284 and '285. None of these are as small as the 256x8 PROM, but they're expandable, which the PROM is not. I say the PROM is inefficient, since it contains two representations of each product, since the multiplier and multiplicand are interchangeable to produce the same result. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Apr 12 19:46:24 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Documation D150 card reader In-Reply-To: <008a01c1e229$ab137480$a77ba8c0@merlin> Message-ID: <20020413004624.46922.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> On the belts, I replaced my belts in my paper tape readers very inexpensively from: (Stock Drive Parts/Sterling Instruments) www.sdp-si.com/ It was a little tricky to measure them but I actually ordered a little too small and a little too big, and they all worked. Other computer-related mechanisms use belts like these, also. Recommended. --- Dave Babcock wrote: > Sellam, > > There's a company in Florida (their name escapes me > at the moment) whose > whole purpose in life is to repair Documation card > readers. They repaired > the museum's and even loaned us another one to use > for the IBM 1620 project. > If anyone has or knows about spare parts, they will. > > I'm copying Lee Courtney on this mail because he was > the one who made all > the contacts with the company and will have their > name, address and phone > number. > > Good luck, > DaveB > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:41 PM > Subject: Documation D150 card reader > > > > > > I have a Documation D150 card reader that I am > trying to make operational. > > I fired it up today and ran a card through, only > to have a big black > > streak get "printed" to the card. I thought this > was odd, so I opened it > > up and found several problems. > > > > The black streak was caused by the roller that > pulls the card through the > > slot. It's basically melted into a gooey ink-like > mess. Actually, only > > one side of it has melted. The other side is > mostly intact, so I may be > > able to just eliminate the melted side and still > use this roller. It > > looks like this: > > > > __ __ > > | \/ | > > ==| |== <-- spindle > > |__/\__| > > > > ^- one side melted > > > > Then there is a rubber gasket that was around a > disc that was situated > > perpendicular to the way the card slides through. > This roller dried up > > and crumbled into several different pieces. > > > > > ^ > > card goes in this way ---> and the rubber disk > spun this way | > > > | > > > > I think the purpose of this roller was to push the > card against the guide > > so that it goes through the reader straight. > > > > Then there are two toothed belts driving cams from > motors. One of them > > got completely obliterated. The radial threads > inside the belt got > > wrapped around the drive cam and left a gooey > residue on it. The other > > belt is still in tact but very gooey, and is > probably going to go at some > > point as well. I was able to get this code off of > it: SDP 6R6-055018C > > > > I did a Google search but didn't turn anything up > on this reader. > > > > Does anyone know of a source to get replacement > belts and parts for this > > reader? > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer > Festival > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > > * Old computing resources for business and > academia at > www.VintageTech.com * > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Apr 12 19:49:09 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Digital Printronix P300? for sale In-Reply-To: <003401c1e281$3fbb90c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Apr 12, 2002 08:22:08 PM Message-ID: <200204130049.g3D0n9313067@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I remember those paper grinders. > A neat innovation in dot matricism. > I never had to install one, what type interface did they use? I've seen them in both serial and parallel. We had both the P300 and the P600 printers, with a few different name- plates. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 12 20:05:22 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002101c1e287$4a021f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:29 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Are you saying that a program in a mask programmed ROM is not firmware? > > > Because everybody else that I know would call it that. > > > > > There are many who would disagree with them, Tony. One characteristic common > > We are going to have to disagree on this point. Maybe it's a UK .vs. US > thing, but over here, the term 'firmware' would include data stored in > masked ROMs. > > > > And where do you put core memory? Or core-on-a-rope? :-) > > > > > I do believe the obsolescence of core and plated-wire memory predates EPROMS > > and certainly EEPROMS, but although cores and PW were capable of persisting > > What's that got to do with anything? Whether or not something is > 'firmware', or 'microdode', or... should not depend on the exact memory > technology used to store it. > It's got little to do with anything except the historical development of the sematics of the terms we've been kicking around. History, and implementations, do have effect on how the nomenclature develops. > > > from one power cycle to another, there were other issues with it. As for > > where to put it, if you don't need the stuff, I'd put it in the junk bin I > > OK, 'how do you catagorise it'.... (Did you really not understand my > original comment?) > > > keep in a remote corner of the basement. That's where my core boards are. > > Odd... Mine are in working computers and calculators... > Yes, but you collect such things and I don't. > > > You need to consider moving forward into the '80's, Tony, since PROMs with > > Why? I just need to solve the problem. And the fact that the best > solution for a particular problem (or a point under discussion) was > developed more than 20 years ago is not a reason to ignore it. (Well, not > unless you're an idiot who believes in the rubbish put out by marektroids!) > I hope you're not suggesting that devices that use core memories are in any way BETTER than more modern machines that use semiconductor memory. > > > external registers and feedback went out when PALs came down to <$8 each. For > > A PROM contains more 'bits' than a PAL. In particular, a PROM can compute > any combinatorial function of its address inputs, a PAL cannot (think of > a 16C2. 16 inputs, effectively 1 bit output. A PROM like that would > contain 64K bits of storage, but there are many fewer fuses in the PAL). > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom can do that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > > performance reasons, (the PROMs back then being slower than PALs, and costing > > nearly as much) building a small state machine using discrete proms, > > registers, and steering logic was pretty inefficient and, frankly, quite > > For small state machines, sure. But not all state machines (and not even > all state machines that I've designed) are 'small'. > > In ant case, the size of the state machine, and the way it's implemented > (PROM, PAL, etc) shouldn't make any difference to whether or not it _is_ > a state machine,... > > > As you undoubtedly can see, how you view the world greatly influences how you > > define the terms you use. If you don't see the difference between state > > machines and microcode, it's because you don't think of them as blocks in an > > executive summary. I'm convinced that the shape and size of components is > > Correct. I have little use for 'executive summaries'. I have slightly > more use for true (and accurate) block diagrams, and a lot of use for > complete schematics... > Before people draw those schematics, they first manipulate the concepts on a big dry-mark-board (whiteboard), waving their arms and arguing vehemently that their take is the one. Once the blocks have been mapped into the requirements, low-level design meetings are held where they do the same thing, only at more detail. That's where the block that later becomes a PLD is born. Block 6B divides the clock by 1-1/2 to generate the clock you need and then propagates the appropriately divided output to block 5D which demodulates the data and passes it to the framing logic in block 2G. Three different guys design those blocks, and they're later implemented in separate PALs, or in a single PLD. > > > heavily influenced by the ways in which they're incorporated in designs. One > > thing that makes one see state machines differently than microcode is that > > microcode normally took up several PROMs, while a state machine normally lives > > in a single PAL. Clearly, if you view things from a perspective of the '70's > > Sorry, I cannot accept that a 'state machine normally lives in a single > PAL'. Not as I consider things like synchronous counters ('163, etc) to > be state machines (if they're _not_ state machines, then what the heck > are they?) > They're state machines, but nobody uses them except for repair parts nowadays, since it's more efficient and cheaper to have 100 GALs costing well under a dollar and not having to track stock and worry availability. For simple logic, I always have some 22V10's, 20RA10's, 16V8's and a few 20V8's around just for the case where I need some function I don't have in TTL. I don't usually buy the TTL any longer unless it's for a repair. I do scrap old hardware and save the parts, since that saves me driving around. I do have a tester, after all. Well, there are state machines that you can buy, e.g. the 4017, or the 74161, or the 74193, all counters of one sort or another. You can also put the equivalent logic in a PAL or larger PLD. In fact, you can also put several in one device. They're still state machines. I suppose you can still buy counters like the '269 or the '393, but they're no longer the most efficient or most effective way to build things. I bought a couple of 74F269 counters last week, for a board someone else designed. I learned that it would have saved me money to program a 22V10 for that function, since the 22V10 costs less. It was for someone else, so I bought the parts, since he also paid for the parts, but I'd have built my own part and made the hack just to save the time and air pollution. It would have saved me time, as it took half a day to find the parts. I can whip up a synchronous counter with synchronous preset and clear in about 15 minutes, and that's from memory. It's even quicker than that, because I have 'em in a library. What's more, if I need to change the polarity of the load strobe or the clear, it's done with a stroke. If it's got to divide by 3, yet produce symetrical output, I can do that ... I can't buy it, though. I know that wooden ships were a beautiful and quiet solution to the problem of how to get from England to Central America, but there are lots of them on the bottom of the ocean, and I'd rather take my chances with a 747. Does that mean that flying is better than sailing, well, maybe not, but it is the method of choice, for most of us, nowadays. If I have two weeks and a lot of budget, I like cruising, but if I have to be at a meeting tomorrow, and don't want to put on ten pounds, then I fly. > From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Fri Apr 12 20:05:55 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001501c1e27d$7a1b8da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Then there's the Turing machine. Again, an fsm with infinite memory (the > > 'tape), but memory that can be sequentially accessed one cell at a time. > > I believe nobody has ever proposed a machine that's more powerful than > > the turing machine. I also seem to remember that a PDA with _2_ separate > > infinite stacks is proveably equivalent to a Turing machine. > > > > OK, those of you who actually learnt some computer science, please correct > the above... > > > I see a major implementation problem, in that you throw around the word > infinite quite freely. It's possible to build counters of 2^64 bits, and it's > possible to hook up 64TB memory arrays, but it's still nowhere as large as > infinite. Until you have an infinitely fast computer, it wouldn't make sense > to have an infinite memory, since you wouldn't be able to test/verify > whether/that your infinite stacks, or whatever, work properly. If you can't > do that, it's not useable. > > It looks like some people need to understand the difference between 'applied' and 'theoretical. Turing machines are theoretical devices that we try to approximate with physical (applied) devices. While you can't 'in reality' have infinite storage, you can quite easily have 'theoretical infinite storage'. FSMs are theoretical tools that can be 'exactly' implemented in real life (no approximations). Anyways, assuming the universe is truely infinite in size, who says you can't realy build something infinitely big? (where 'you' could mean an infinite number of beings over an infinite amount of time) --> Practial != Possible <-- -- Pat From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 20:22:12 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001501c1e27d$7a1b8da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 12, 2 05:55:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5176 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020413/d9ead19e/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 12 20:35:00 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <3CB703F2.3347.56224A92@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Apr 12, 2 03:57:38 pm" Message-ID: <200204130135.SAA17674@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > the I/O is custom PLD logic that is impressive, if it is standard logic > > > chips, that is great that he could find the chips in prototype > > > quantities. > > It's not a he, it's a she. :) > or inbetween ? > C64 guys are somewhat strange ... *ahem* As a Commodore guy of long standing, what are you implying? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 12 20:30:56 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002101c1e287$4a021f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: A fanatic is somebody who can't change his mind, and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 20:43:43 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002101c1e287$4a021f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 12, 2 07:05:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020413/48e5440f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 20:53:24 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001b01c1e281$84ed7e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 12, 2 06:24:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1607 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020413/9dfebd43/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 12 21:02:50 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Tops Flashbox References: Message-ID: <3CB791CA.18F8B874@rain.org> In my continuing quest to get rid of stuff, I have a TOPS FlashBox to dispose of. This apparently requires a Mac 512KE, Mac Plus, Mac SE, or Mac II. Supporte protocols are the standard AppleTalk (230 Kbps) and FlashTalk (770 Kbps.) The date is approximately 1992. Shipping weight is 2 1/4 pounds. Best offer over $5.00 plus shipping. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Apr 12 21:13:25 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020412220900.009e2ec0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Jay, I've worked with Endymion's MailMan 3 - great setup and very flexible. You will really like it once you have it in place. Plus, you can even customize all of the buttons/images, etc. This way, if you don't like that default layout, in a few minutes, you can have it look any way you want. It also allows for integration of images into posts, etc. for realistically handling the common need to include an image or two of whatever is being discussed (IE: RS6000 board specs/traces, C64 diagram, etc.). - John Boffemmyer IV At 12:42 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: >Greetings; > >FYI - at some point in the not too distant future (read weeks) I want to >move the classiccmp list onto a different machine (but same location). This >isn't being done for cpu/memory load or bandwidth reasons, it's mainly for >logistical reasons. So - one machine will be dedicated to handling all >classiccmp list traffic and that is all it will do. Right now the machine >the list is on is also one of several doing backup DNS and mail for the ISP. >Once the classiccmp stuff is moved it will also be shadowed by some of our >other servers, but the primary server will be dedicated to classiccmp. > >I am perfectly willing to subsidize the entire cost of the hardware for the >new machine. However, I am also willing to accept any donations of cash or >hardware to cover the cost. I will host the machine and maintain it always >for free, but the initial hardware would be nice to get some help with >(although not required!). Here are the components and costs. If anyone has >any of the components to spare and is willing to donate them, great - or if >you want to kick in some cash to defray the cost - great too. But whatever >people don't cover, I'm willing to cover myself even if it is the entire >amount. > >ASUS micro-ATX motherboard with built in video and network interface: $65.00 >Intel celeron 1.2ghz $80 >Teac Floppy: $10 >IDE CD-ROM: $30 >256mb RAM: $80 >30gb ultra IDE hard drive: $0 (I already have this sitting around, but a 2nd >to mirror might be nice) >1U rackmount chassis: $150 > >In order to address the previously discussed issues of [offlist] tags and >html rejection, as well as because of a lot of other nifty features, I'm >also considering using mailman. It gives a wonderfull web interface for >those that want to do their subscribes/unsubscribes & the like on their own. >Yes, it still supports email subscribtion requestions. Basically, it gives >me a lot of flexibility and options that majordomo doesn't. Not sure about >this all yet. > >Thanks! > >Jay West ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 12 21:20:57 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: <3CB73E8F.BAB5854@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Drat. I was hoping for Windows 2000. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Why would you want to run a "MODERN" operating system like > Windows 2000? After all, it has an up-time measured in decades I despise Windows 2000. Not as much as I despise Windows ME, though. > Of course you are not able to run VMS under an emulator. So > you must use real hardware under the hobby license and run on > a real VAX or real Alpha hardware. That's OK. I got VAXen. I even have an Alpha. Someday I'll properly grok VMS. > By the way, can you tell me the location of those files which > helped? I have an M8981-AA which I hope to receive the > Qbus cab kit for eventually. Thanks to Douglas Gwyn by way of Henk Gooijen: http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj Click on the 11/35 console. Click on the uPDP-11/93 link. There is a simple page about the 11/93. The only interesting part (?) is the description if the DIP switches. > > Damn thing didn't come with ethernet, either. > > But you can buy a DECnet license for so little for RSX-11M-PLUS > although an ethernet board might be available for free via a trade. That _was_ a joke, meant to demonstrate my unbounded greed. :) I was already negotiating a trade for some Qbus ethernet adapters; now I just need one more. > And that extra 2 MBytes of memory was also extremely low > in price when DEC was still selling the 11/93 module. I seem > to remember that the 4 MByte board was ONLY about $ US 2000 > more than the 2 MByte board. Wow. > Can anyone remember how much a 4 MByte 30 pin SIMM cost > when they were new? I have a few lying around to show to > my great-great-grandchildren. Some even use 4 MBit DRAM > although most are the less expensive type that use 16 MBit DRAM. I have one somewhere, from a SparcStation, IIRC, that has a $2495.95 sticker on it. I have no idea if that's the price. > > So will this guy boot from Tim Shoppa's RT-11 CD? > > NO! The RT-11 Freeware CD from Tim Shoppa does NOT > contain any RT-11 distributions. Sorry. Do you want me to > send you one? Which version of RT-11? Do you have a CDROM > drive on the real PDP-11 hardware that is able to read 512 byte > blocks? Well, I have an RRD42, and a much faster Toshiba that seems to be DEC-friendly (Will successfully install OpenVMS). I was basically asking if the M5977 supports a CD drive as a bootable device. As far as which version I want of RT-11, I don't know. I've no idea which version would be optimal. Ahem. Naturally, I would never ask anyone to engage in possible violations of Mentec's copyrights or license policies. Ahem. > If you already have a file under Windows 98 that is able to boot > RT-11 under Ersatz-11, I have found that Nero Burning can copy > that file under the "Burn Image" option to the CD - including the > first 64 blocks which the ISO file structure ignores - or so I am > told. Now that is an extremely interesting thought. Since RT-11 Well, I'm not inclined to install Windows 98 right now. ;) But I think that your suggestions could be duplicated/translated in Linux with dd, cat and cdrecord. > > Doc, who is thrilled beyond belief > > Now that I can understand. Enjoy the 11/93. But don't expect the > hype from DEC to be valid as far as speed is concerned. Based > on just a few measurements I once made, the 11/93 CPU speed > seems to be about twice as fast as an 11/73. A MACRO-11 > file took about this many seconds using VM: (all in memory): > 11/73 11/83 11/93 > 270 180 135 Well, all I have to compare it with is an 11/53, and I haven't had time to really put either machine through its hoops, so I'm pretty openminded. Doc From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 12 21:22:55 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Tops Flashbox References: <3CB791CA.18F8B874@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CB7967F.A60D11AE@rain.org> I should add that this appears to be new. The shrinkwrap has been torn, but it doesn't appear to have been opened. Marvin Johnston wrote: > > In my continuing quest to get rid of stuff, I have a TOPS FlashBox to > dispose of. This apparently requires a Mac 512KE, Mac Plus, Mac SE, or > Mac II. Supporte protocols are the standard AppleTalk (230 Kbps) and > FlashTalk (770 Kbps.) The date is approximately 1992. Shipping weight is > 2 1/4 pounds. Best offer over $5.00 plus shipping. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 12 22:14:01 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <002101c1e287$4a021f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB7A279.1FE47103@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > I hope you're not suggesting that devices that use core memories are in any > way BETTER than more modern machines that use semiconductor memory. Core memory had it's day. However it had the advantage of non-volitile that is hard to duplicate in modern memory. The read/write memory cycle was well used by computer architecture of the 1960's. > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom can do > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. Did not the early PAL's burn on PROM programers? (512x8 fuse prom) Sadly this not true today. > Before people draw those schematics, they first manipulate the concepts on a > big dry-mark-board (whiteboard), waving their arms and arguing vehemently that > their take is the one. Once the blocks have been mapped into the > requirements, low-level design meetings are held where they do the same thing, > only at more detail. That's where the block that later becomes a PLD is born. > Block 6B divides the clock by 1-1/2 to generate the clock you need and then > propagates the appropriately divided output to block 5D which demodulates the > data and passes it to the framing logic in block 2G. Three different guys > design those blocks, and they're later implemented in separate PALs, or in a > single PLD. And marketing droids sit on the design 'Go ahead' for months and then want it yesterday. > They're state machines, but nobody uses them except for repair parts nowadays, > since it's more efficient and cheaper to have 100 GALs costing well under a > dollar and not having to track stock and worry availability. For simple > logic, I always have some 22V10's, 20RA10's, 16V8's and a few 20V8's around > just for the case where I need some function I don't have in TTL. I don't > usually buy the TTL any longer unless it's for a repair. I do scrap old > hardware and save the parts, since that saves me driving around. I do have a > tester, after all. I use TTL because 1) I don't have programer ( got any schematic for one that does not use PAL's and easy to find TTL) 2) Pals never are the right size to replace simple but messy logic -- say a D-F/F followed by a 4/1 multiplexer followed a xor gate and another D-F/F. > > I know that wooden ships were a beautiful and quiet solution to the problem of > how to get from England to Central America, but there are lots of them on the > bottom of the ocean, and I'd rather take my chances with a 747. Does that > mean that flying is better than sailing, well, maybe not, but it is the method > of choice, for most of us, nowadays. If I have two weeks and a lot of budget, > I like cruising, but if I have to be at a meeting tomorrow, and don't want to > put on ten pounds, then I fly. Old sailing ships used a lot of man-power. While OIL is cheap wind powered modern ships will not be developed. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Apr 12 22:21:37 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) In-Reply-To: References: <20020410005646.GU26665@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020413132016.02348548@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 09:10 AM 10/04/2002 -0500, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >What a shame. I just recently joined the list hoping to find a system to >run OpenVMS on. I spot one that needs a home and it's on the other side >of the world. The search continues ... I could be nasty and say it makes a change :-) Normally all the cool stuff is half way around the world away. I'm also in Melbourne Australia..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 12 22:24:01 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784401@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CB7A4D1.C724B21E@compsys.to> >Christopher Smith wrote: > > From: Jerome H. Fine > > As for the first bug I want to put on the list, MACRO-11 does > > not conform to the ISO standard since it uses ONLY 2 digit > There's an ISO MACRO-11? :) > Chris > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL Jerome Fine replies: Mentec has tried to conform to the ISO standards for the display of the date which requires that all 4 digits be used to display the value for the year. I understand that when the bugs in RT-11 were fixed in regard to the way the date was displayed, in all cases, 4 digits were used except for MACRO-11, i.e. the file MACRO.SAV, which is the assembler program for RT-11, which was not modified between the distribution for V5.06 and V5.07 and still uses only 2 digits (the low order two digits of course) for the value of the year. The date January 1st, 1973 is displayed as: 01-Jan-73 The date January 1st, 1999 is displayed as: 01-Jan-99 The date January 1st, 2000 is displayed as: 01-Jan-00 The date January 1st, 2073 is displayed as: 01-Jan-73 The above solution is unnecessary. It is quite possible to include the high order two digits in the year. I made the required changes in the distribution for V5.04G of RT-11 many years ago. If anyone wants me to do the same for MACRO.SAV in the distribution for V5.06 of RT-11, I would be pleased to do so. This exercise mainly involves removing some of the patch since in the V5.06 distribution, the correct low order two digits for the years between 2000 and 2099 were already being displayed correctly. Obviously I can't do this for hobby users, but after I get the bug list started, I will do it for V5.03 of RT-11. At the same time, I will probably correct another bug which seems to be present as well - although I would need a consensus as to whether the bug should remain due to everyone being content to use it based on it having always been incorrect - although I may not have understood the code correctly and could have arrived at the wrong conclusion. I refer to the manner in which the decimal seconds of elapsed time are displayed. I suspect they are NOT a decimal fraction of seconds, but are the number of ticks modulo the clock rate, i.e. for a 60 cycle clock the decimal fraction of seconds will always be between 0 and 59 (decimal of course). For a 50 cycle clock, the decimal fraction of seconds will always be between 0 and 49 (decimal of course). Anyone should easily be able to verify this. Can anyone else add to the above two bugs? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 12 22:38:39 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Tops Flashbox References: <3CB791CA.18F8B874@rain.org> Message-ID: <008801c1e29c$b3d2d980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Let's not forget Fred (below), since he's been looking for so long. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin Johnston To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:02 PM Subject: Tops Flashbox In my continuing quest to get rid of stuff, I have a TOPS FlashBox to dispose of. This apparently requires a Mac 512KE, Mac Plus, Mac SE, or Mac II. Supporte protocols are the standard AppleTalk (230 Kbps) and FlashTalk (770 Kbps.) The date is approximately 1992. Shipping weight is 2 1/4 pounds. Best offer over $5.00 plus shipping. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Scholl" Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 1:58 PM Subject: Vintage equipt Dear John, I am trying to find vintage mac networking equipment, specifically TOPS Flashbox and TOPS Flashcard. They were used for interconnecting Macs and PCs around 1991. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Fred Scholl From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Apr 12 23:13:42 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Amiga haul in Topeka References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020412141510.03225938@pc> Message-ID: <3CB7B076.CF5F9ADA@ccp.com> John Foust wrote: > > At 02:47 AM 4/11/2002 -0500, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > >I made contact with an employee of Kansas Computer Recycling Corp. in > >Topeka. > >Well they did have them. I went home with 15 Toaster cards, 5 Flyer > >cards, 18 Ethernet cards (extremely rare and pricey), 4 68040 accerator > >cards, and a plethora of other goodies. > > Must've been the remains of NewTek's Topeka office. > They'd left for Texas many years ago. You didn't say > what you paid for them... :-) > > - John Approximately $2 per card. That doesn't include the two A2000s, one A2000 mother board, 12 megs of brand new 1 meg 30 pin SIMMS, a new Kickstart 3.1 ROM and a 33c93 SCSI chip. Also got several Apple 3.5" drives off the scrap pile, and a commodore 64 for keyboard parts. If I add all that, I guess the cost per card is about $1 to $1.50 depending on how you count your beans. Hope you're sitting down while reading that, and on oxygen. I still pinch myself thinking it is a dream . . . . Yeah, I thiught it was the dregs from NewTek, but one A2000 has a Washburn University (also in Topeka). If it was Newtek, why would they need ethernet with their Toasters??? I'm doing some research, and I'll let the list memebers know exactly where they came from, once I retrace the trail. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Apr 12 23:21:46 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Amiga Toaster was re: Amiga haul in Topeka Message-ID: <3CB7B25A.BB4E720B@ccp.com> I contacted a local (Kansaas City) amigaphile and Toaster technician, and he gave me the lowdown on hardware requirements for the Toaster and Toaster Flyer systems. The Toaster 2000 and Toaster 4000 cards are different, and require different software to operate. The physical difference is that the 4000 card was made a bit shorter so it would easily fit in the standard slot on an A3000 or A4000 desktop. The A2000 card was in its own dedicated video card slot, and wasn't limited in lengh. I'm getting the software from him, and we're setting up a test machine to do a go/no go test on these cards. He also does componenet level repairs on motherboards, etc. for most Amigas, if anyone is interested. Of course that is limited by parts availability. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Apr 12 23:28:26 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet Message-ID: <3CB7B3EA.3645C35C@ccp.com> I picked up a PCI ethernet card today that is both 10 Base T and 10 Base 2 outputs. Now I will have a crash (bad term) course in networking, especially across different platforms. I'm wondering if this card is capable of using both outputs at once; i.e. base 2 to my Amiga Etherrnet and base T to a cable modem or hub. If it is an exclusive OR situation, I guess I'll have to get another NIC for another input/output. If all else fails, then I put Linux in the Amiga . . . . . Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Apr 12 23:46:42 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Amiga Toaster was re: Amiga haul in Topeka Message-ID: <74.1b443f39.29e91232@aol.com> Hi; I am interested in one of your Toaster 2000 cards when you get around to deciding what you are willing to part with. I have been keeping a 2000 around for years. Thanks for the info too. I like the history. Paxton Astoria, OR From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 12 23:54:31 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A Message-ID: <20020413050331.RVJS18910.imf13bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Sellam Ismail > I concede I am not only both silly and lazy, but somewhat disturbed (and > somewhat disturbing as well). God-oh-mighty. Sellam, what's this? Honesty and personal disclosure all in one post? What could be next? Kindness? Dude! Glen 0/0 From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 13 01:02:44 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <3CB7B3EA.3645C35C@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I'm wondering if this card is capable of using both outputs at once; > i.e. base 2 to my Amiga Etherrnet and base T to a cable modem or hub. > If it is an exclusive OR situation, I guess I'll have to get another NIC > for another input/output. Gary, I'm not aquainted with any PC NICs that allow use of both connections. There _are_ quite a few multiport NICs, but every one I've seen had 2 or 4 identical connections. Usually 10bT. If you're after linking the Amiga network to "the world", I can offer several very simple (and cheap) ways to build a gateway PC. Like $40 total cost, including new NICs, and 45 minutes total setup. > If all else fails, then I put Linux in the Amiga . . . . . Seems a waste of a good Amiga.... The more hardware platforms I get to experience, the more I realize that Linux on a DECstation isn't much different than Linux on a Mac or PC. Same with *BSD. I've started trying to find and learn the native OS on each system, for "the full effect". And Absolutely NOT! That _doesn't_ mean that I have to run Windows on my PC. :) Doc From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 01:08:41 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001201c1e2b1$a9137d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:22 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > > I think that _any_ computer with finite memory (and that's all real > > > > > computers) cna be shown to be equivalent to a state machine. Things like > > > > > turing machines and PDAs [1] are only more powerful than state machines > > > > > because they have infinite memory. > > > > > > > > > > I must have slept through that class, since I've never been introduced to > > anything physical that's infinite, and I've never seen a computer that's not > > physical. I've seen machines that were virtual running on machines that are > > Have you really never come across the theoretical 'machines' used to > discuss what is 'computable' or not? > > This stuff is pretty useless _to me_ (I am not saying it's useless to > everyone, so no flames) because, yes I work in the real world where > machines have finite memory. On the other hand, I do find it interesting. > > > > Even exhaustively testing small (by today's standards) -capacity RAMs is > > > likely to be impossibe. You can't cycle through the 2^65536 states of a > > > 64K DRAM (Even at 1 state every us, it would take many times the age of > > > the universe!) > > > > > The 64K DRAMs I had only had 2^16 bits, each of which had two states. My old > > True, which means there are a total of 2^(2^16) = 2^65536 = a darn big > number [1] total states. I am not just talking about setting and > resetting each bit in the word, I am talking about cycling the RAM > through all the possible states. You did mention exhaustive testing... > > After all it's possible (albeit unlikely) that some particular > combination of bits in locations 0, 3, 15, 3f, 2001, etc will affect the > bit in locaiton 102c :-) > In a single device that would be true, but the upper limit on what you have to do in order to effect an exhaustive test of the memory array is to test out to the boundaries of each device, since that's what you can't examine with your 'scope. Beyond that, it's just the same logic regardless of the contents and won't be impacted by what happens inside the devices, power phenomena aside, of course. Those, again, are externally observable, however, so you needn't walk bits from one chip to the next. > > > 6502 would test his RAM, static though it was, but still 64K of it, in the > > time it took me to consume a couple of beers, and I didn't get this gut from > > sipping 'em. > > Yes, but you didn't do an exhaustive test. Most likely you just did a > 'write all 1's, write all 0's, write both patterns of alternating 1's > and 0's, and then write bit patterns to make sure no address lines are > shorted or open'. That's what most people do for a RAM test because it's > the only way to do it in a sensible time. Exhaustive testing of all RAM > states is impossible. > Not exactly. (see above paragraph) I was using 4Kx1-bit static memories back then, so I had to cycle through 16 banks of 4K bytes, with every combination of bits in each 4K-bit chip, but no further than that because any effects exceeding the chip boundaries would be externally observable. > > > > But there are some problems an fsm can't solve. For example, consider > > > strings of an arbitary sequence of a's and b's. At any time I want to > > > know if the number of 'a's read is the same as the number of 'b's read. > > > That can't be handled by an fsm because essentially we need to keep a > > > count of 'a's. and this count could get arbitrarily large. There is no > > > way of making an infinite counter in an fsm. > > > > > Yes, but that's because there's no way of making an infinite counter. As for > > Forget about real computers for the momnet > Why? This quagmire was originally entered over the question of what distinction there was between what was referred to as a microcoded machine versus a state machine. My position is that the terms and their usage had specific origins due to the way they evolved and they found their usage on that basis. Your position is that how these terms came to be used as they are is not relevant, since the people who use them seem to differ in their outlook from you. I don't believe your view is irrelevant, nor is it wrong. It's just not aligned with what I seem to understand as the conventional usage. You are intent on going on about what a state machine IS. I'm simply going on about what most folks in the biz seem to understand a state machine to be. Likewise a microcoded CPU. I don't deny that what these items ARE, and what folks understand you to be talking about when you use those terms may in fact be inconsistent with definitions from computer science or from electronics engineering. I'm just cautioning you that your inferences from the domain of raw math and theoretical comp sci don't exactly align with common usage. If it's about being right, then you certain are. It's just that extrapolating on the putative intersection of the theoretical definitions on one hand and the paractically evolved nomenclature on the other isn't getting us anywhere. What the terms SHOULD mean just doesn't happen, in your quite valid view, to align with what common usage seems to indicate they DO mean to a large number of their users. I told it was a semantic quagmire. > > The whole point is that a finite state machine has a finite number of > states. And thus can't be used to make a infinite counter. Now some > problems on unbounded-size data streams can be solved without arbitrarily > large counters (the first problem I mentioned, deciding if the number of > 'a's was odd or even can, no matter how long the data stream is). Others > cannot. > > Now, you could just say that, OK, we'll allow machines with effectively > infinite numbers of states with as complex a transition diagram as you > like between them. Problem is, it's hard to do any kind of meaningful > reasoning with such 'machines'. Instead, lets keep the 'infinite' part to > one particular section of the machine (the stack on a PDA, the tape on a > Turing machine) and keep the rest as a finite state machine that we > already know how to understand. And it turns out that 'machines' like > this (Especially the Turing machine or the 2-stack PDA) can essentially > do anything an 'infinite state machine' could do. > > > Well, they don't build stacks that don't have counters in them, and those are > > Of course you can build a stack without a counter. In the real world a > shift register will do it (I've used a row of 'F194s to make a subroutine > stack). Or a pile of bits of paper with numbers written on them :-). You > do not have to make a stack (particulary not in the 'theoretical world') > using a counter > Oh forgive me for trying to be practical. It takes a LOT of shift registers to build what you can build with an up/down counter and a RAM. > > > FSM's. Until you can come up with a physical stack that's infinitely deep, > > this point is moot. > > Again, have you really never come across these theoretical 'machines' > I've never had to sit in front of one and use it to do useful work. > > > The detail that's been omitted is that you can't build a physical stack > > without a FSM, in the form of an up/down counter, since you otherwise haven't > > any means for manipulating the stack pointer. You can't have a infinite stack > > Again, I claim you can. The idea of a stack pointer addressing normal RAM > is a convenient way to make a stack using commonly available components > in the real world, It is not the only way to make a stack, even in the > real world. > You keep skipping over the practical details. Even the old DEC machines don't build their stacks with discrete shift registers, unless they're very shallow, indeed. I suppose an 8-level stack would work OK. > > > because you don't have an infinitely large memory, though some of the ones > > I thought we were all agreed that all real computers are FSMs, albeit > with a ridiculously large number of states. > > > I see a major implementation problem, in that you throw around the word > > Agreed. Nobody is ever going to make (or even simulate) either a PDA or a > Turing machine. Simply because real memory is finite. > So, outside the world of theory, they don't exist, hence, unless we're trying to be theoretical, which I think we're not, discussion of these items as a basis for nomenclature applicable to commonly used constructs will likely lead nowhere. While it's true that a modern computer can be viewed as a collection of state machines, or, in some cases, a single state machine, that's not what most people think of when you refer to a state machine. Further, when you refer to the notion of a microcoded CPU, people generally don't think of the ROM in an old early '70's-style state machine as the microcode. Generally, I'd say they refer to the sort of thing extensively discussed in the November 1984 issue of Electronic Design, which has a number of articles on microprogrammed systems. The main thing that characterizes them, in my own view, is that they have two levels of code. The microcode firmware makes the computer compute in the way in which it does, and the application or macrocode makes it do useful work. That's an oversimplification, for sure, but since the two levels of code are quite isolated from one another, it holds true. From lists at subatomix.com Sat Apr 13 02:40:38 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: Free TK50 cartridges Message-ID: <15517207364.20020413024038@subatomix.com> I have a line on "at least 32 tk-50 tape cartridges" for free in (I think) Ohio. If you want these, follow the sig instructions and mail me. I may then put you in contact with the owner. -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 03:03:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <002101c1e287$4a021f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB7A279.1FE47103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006401c1e2c5$263c3840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I remember the PW memories on the Honeywell 516-types used as the space shuttle engine controller. I don't recall that it had a read-only command. I do remember, however, that since the PW held whatever was last stored, it could retain a failure from one mission to the next. (PW was 200 ns or so faster than core, so they used that.) see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > I hope you're not suggesting that devices that use core memories are in any > > way BETTER than more modern machines that use semiconductor memory. > > Core memory had it's day. However it had the advantage of non-volitile > that is hard to duplicate in modern memory. The read/write memory cycle > was well used by computer architecture of the 1960's. > > > > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom can do > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > Did not the early PAL's burn on PROM programers? (512x8 fuse prom) > Sadly this not true today. > My "early" PALs program on the same programmer that programs my bipolar PROMs, and my current-generation GALs as well. > > > Before people draw those schematics, they first manipulate the concepts on a > > big dry-mark-board (whiteboard), waving their arms and arguing vehemently that > > their take is the one. Once the blocks have been mapped into the > > requirements, low-level design meetings are held where they do the same thing, > > only at more detail. That's where the block that later becomes a PLD is born. > > Block 6B divides the clock by 1-1/2 to generate the clock you need and then > > propagates the appropriately divided output to block 5D which demodulates the > > data and passes it to the framing logic in block 2G. Three different guys > > design those blocks, and they're later implemented in separate PALs, or in a > > single PLD. > > And marketing droids sit on the design 'Go ahead' for months and then > want it yesterday. > > > They're state machines, but nobody uses them except for repair parts nowadays, > > since it's more efficient and cheaper to have 100 GALs costing well under a > > dollar and not having to track stock and worry availability. For simple > > logic, I always have some 22V10's, 20RA10's, 16V8's and a few 20V8's around > > just for the case where I need some function I don't have in TTL. I don't > > usually buy the TTL any longer unless it's for a repair. I do scrap old > > hardware and save the parts, since that saves me driving around. I do have a > > tester, after all. > > I use TTL because 1) I don't have programmer ( got any schematic for one > that does not use PAL's and easy to find TTL) 2) PALs never are the > right size to replace simple but messy logic -- say a D-F/F followed by > a 4/1 multiplexer followed a xor gate and another D-F/F. > What's the right size? You can get 'em in whatever SO type you like, so they'll "fit." Looking pretty isn't part of that deal, though. A 4:1 mux is easy as SOP and each macrocell has a DFF in the path if you want it. XOR is just [A*/B + /A*B]. > > > I know that wooden ships were a beautiful and quiet solution to the problem of > > how to get from England to Central America, but there are lots of them on the > > bottom of the ocean, and I'd rather take my chances with a 747. Does that > > mean that flying is better than sailing, well, maybe not, but it is the method > > of choice, for most of us, nowadays. If I have two weeks and a lot of budget, > > I like cruising, but if I have to be at a meeting tomorrow, and don't want to > > put on ten pounds, then I fly. > > Old sailing ships used a lot of man-power. While OIL is cheap wind > powered modern ships will not be developed. > Some guys are doing it. The Americas Cup bears witness to that doesn't it? One of my friends is building a sailboat in one of his vacant buildings. He's been talking about pouring the keel any day now. I want to see that! He says he wants to sail it around the world. I hope he makes it. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 03:25:31 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <006501c1e2c5$2677baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > One conculsion you can draw from this is that there are therefore > > > combinatorial functions you can implement in the PROM that you can't > > > implement in the PAL. One trivial example : It's not hard to program a > > > 4*4 (giving 8 bit product) multiplication table into a 256 byte PROM. It > > > is (I believe) impossible to do the same using a 10L8 PAL. > > > > > That's a lookup table, however, and not a multiplier, and terribly > > Of course it's a multiplier. You give it 2 numbers, it gives you back the > product. I'd love to see a definition of 'multiplier' that excludes > look-up tables. > There surely isn't one, but wait a minute, now ... can you have it both ways? This is about semantics, after all. Problem is, we're addressing different parts of the issue. > > > inefficient. By way of contrast, it is straightforward enough to build a > > 32x32 multiplier into a sincle CPLD/FPGA of reasonable proportions. I doubt > > that it's easy to build a ROM lookup table capable of accomplishing the same > > thing into a ROM. As for the small multiplier, I think the TTL part that does > > that is a 74S274 or thereabouts. It's a wallace tree multiplier, and the > > basic unit was, I think, 4x4. There's also a '284 and '285. None of these > > are as small as the 256x8 PROM, but they're expandable, which the PROM is not. > Now that I've looked the sheets over, I see that the parts are no more expandable than a PROM would be, but the parts are only 16-pin types. That's pretty small. The PROMs (256x8) that I've got are in 20-pin packages. (I just used a 32x8 a couple of days back and that's what I was tinking about.) > > You do realise that the '284 and '285 are pre-programmed 256*4 ROMs (or > maybe PROMs, I don't know), I take it. They're programmed to provide the > high nybble and low nybble of the 8 bit product. > > And yes, they're expandable _as is any other PROM-based implementation_. > You use the well-known bit of algebra to combine 4 4*4 multipliers and > some adders (probably Wallace tree, but any adder can be used in theory) > to make an 8*8 or larger multiplier. > They don't show the logic diagrams (you've forced me to look) of the '284 and '285 but it appears that a 256x8 PROM would do the job, so I suspect you're right. However, the PROM would have twice the number of bits really necessary since 3*5 = 5*3, and I'm convinced the TTL parts have gotten around that bit of waste. I don't suppose it matters, though, at least from the user's standpoint. The '275 requires only one adder between four devices to generate an 8x8 multiplier, and, having been forced to look at the multipliers' ('274, '275, '284, '285) datasheets, which I hadn't done in a decade or so, I see they're not really any more expandable than a PROM would be. There may be some later versions which help a little more with the expansion. One thing you've got to consider yet, however, is combinatorial loops. PROMs don't allow for internal feedback, so you can't generate a combinatorial-loop latch with the prom without reducing the number of external inputs. BTW, you've limited the selection of PALs to combinatorial parts, while the registered PALs are the ones normally used in state machines. How do PROMs work for you there? There are registered PROMs that will hold the present state for you, but how does that work for you toward your FSM? The PAL allows you to specify the transitions explicitly from this state to the next based on inputs, and outputs based on this state. The latter two don't have to be the same, though that requires extra registers. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 03:56:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:21 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <006e01c1e2c9$0ffe1c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> So, how's the weather over there? My Mom took a trip to the northern reaches and Isles a few years ago and IIRC, none of her pictures had blue sky or shadows in them. She and my second-cousin, who lives in Munich, wanted to do that again, since the springtime was apparently of interest to them. see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:43 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > I hope you're not suggesting that devices that use core memories are in any > > way BETTER than more modern machines that use semiconductor memory. > > Well, considering core memory is radiation hard and non-volatile, I would > think it could be considered to be better than semiconductor RAM for some > applications. It's also got a much longer lifetime (when was the last > time you had a core plane (not the drivers) fail?) > It really doesn't matter which part of the core memory subsystem fails, does it? BTW, I've never had a memory failure on a PC. I've had numerous ones in varous older commercial systems, but never a hard failure in a PC memory subsystem that I can recall. I've had rotating memory troubles on occasion, but not on machines that are kept running. Considering that any one of my PC's has more RAM in it than all the core-based machines I've seen in my 30+ years in the field combined, I'd say that's a decent outcome. > > > > A PROM contains more 'bits' than a PAL. In particular, a PROM can compute > > > any combinatorial function of its address inputs, a PAL cannot (think of > > > a 16C2. 16 inputs, effectively 1 bit output. A PROM like that would > > > contain 64K bits of storage, but there are many fewer fuses in the PAL). > > > > Actually, I think they still used core memories when they dropped the 16C2. The 16C2 is optimized for decoding, though, isn't it? > > > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom can do > > Sorry, but absolute rubbish (well, I'll qualifiy that. Given a large > enough OR matrix, it's possible, but all real PALs have a very restricted > OR matrix). > Nevertheless, while they have a fixed OR matrix, they have a very flexibly programmable AND array, which allows you to express any logic function of the number of inputs you have in SOP form. Keep in mind that you can use multiple macrocells to create ridiculously complex functions. I've not run into a function I couldn't express in a 42VA12. Product term depletion is quite well avoided there. If I were to find one, I'd try an ICT 7024. Those are both 24-pin devices > > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > And that should tell you something is 'wrong'. > > Let's consider a single-output combinatorial function of inputs. > There are 2^(2^n) possible functions (including ones that ignore some or > all of the inputs). > You're running down an unimplementable path again, Tony. You can't implement all those functions in a comparable ROM either. For starters, though, let's postulate that you've got, at most, 22 inputs. (a 24-pin device with Vcc and Gnd). Each pin you use as output, of course, has feedback, but it's not an input. Nevertheless, that means 44 signals to the AND array, since each input is in true and complement form. Quite obviously, you can AND whatever combination of these that you want, and use up to 8 of these sum terms in, say, a 22V10. Since a ROM doesn't share inputs and outputs, you'd be dealing with a larger package, but, since you've only got 8, 10, or maybe even 12 outputs, there's a limit on what you can derive from that number of inputs. PALs have the same technological restrictions as PROMs, so whatever size of fuse array you can generate in a PAL, you can also have in a PROM, and vice-versa. Now, I won't say it's impossible to run out of product terms in a PAL, I've never run out when I was willing to use another macrocell's SOP, thereby sacrificing the output pin. > > This is easy to see. Think of writing out the complete truth table of the > function. It's got 2^n lines (one for each of the possible combinations > of the inputs). In each line we have to pick the output bit, either 0 or 1. > Truth tables are an unwieldy way to create/analyze PALs, though they were once popular. When you do use a truth table, you don't need to include all the inputs. You only need the ones involved in your particular logic function. Boolean equations are an easier way to deal with the SOP formatted logic functions. That way, you can easily apply Quine-McLuskey or Karnaugh map techniques to reduce your logic. The software tools are what makes these devices so handy. They do the reductions, and configuration for you quite painlessly. Remember you've got 8 or 10, or even 12 outputs on a small PLD. The really small PALs have only 8 product terms per sum, and, in fact, the 20RA10 has only four per register, with the others used for control of the register and output buffer. Of course if you run out, you can sacrifice an output in order to use its SOP in your required logic function. In a somewhat larger PAL, say a 42VA12, (sadly, no longer in production) you still have 22 possible inputs, in addition to which you have the outputs of 12 registers, which can be buried, (two always are, as there are only 10 output pins) and all the inputs to the AND array are available in either true or complement form. The AOI gate has 64 product terms, and the macrocell has a register, an output enable, a product term clock (each FF can be operated asynchronously if you like), a direct set, a direct reset, a polarity term, and an output enable. You can, of course, bypass the register altogether and simply use the buffered SOP output. You can, if you choose, selectively tristate an output under some conditions, using the feedback path as an input from the external environment. I've never even seen a PROM that allows you bitwise control of the output enable, let alone one that allows you to use output bits, bitwise depending on conditions as inputs. As a consequence your range of inputs is smaller with a PROM of a given size than with a PAL. > > Now if you claim you've got a circuit that will let me create any n-input > combinatorial function with fewer than 2^(2^n) programming bits, then I > have to say you are mistaken. There must be some functions you can't > implement. > the possible fuse arrays are about the same size, regardless of whether you have a PROM or a PAL. How they're implemented differs somewhat, in how they're applied, however. Because the OR array is fixed, fewer bits are programmable, but then, if you use a PROM to generate random logic, there are lots of redundant bits. The PAL, with its fixed OR array, won't let you generate a lookup table. If you need a lookup table, you'd use a PROM. OTOH, if you need a decoder, that's straightforward enough using a single output. > > So I say again. Consider the 16C2. It has 16 inputs and 1 output (yes, 2 > output _pins_, but one is always the inverse of the other). Does it have > 65536 programming fuses? No! It has many fewer. Therefore there are 16 > input functions you can't fit into a 16C2. > Well, you've picked a long-obsolete device type, Tony, but if you consider what it was intended to do, I think you'll find it can detect and signal any unique combination of the 16 inputs. The 'C' means it's a comparator. Have a look at a more general-purpose device, e.g. a 22V10. It has some macrocells where you might run out of product terms, but that's seldom a problem when you consider what sorts of things you might want to do with the device. The two innermost macrocells have 16 product terms, while the two on the outside have only 8. The ones in between fall in between, with 10, 12, and 14. ( I think that's right. I haven't looked at a sheet in about a decade.) This means you might have to arrange your outputs so they correspond with macrocells having the appropriate number of product terms. > > > > Sorry, I cannot accept that a 'state machine normally lives in a single > > > PAL'. Not as I consider things like synchronous counters ('163, etc) to > > > be state machines (if they're _not_ state machines, then what the heck > > > are they?) > > > > > They're state machines, but nobody uses them except for repair parts nowadays, > > Oh for %deity's sake. Will you please try to understand the difference > between the following : > > The parts _you_ choose to design with [PALs, GALs, PLDs] > The parts others choose to design with (for whatever reasons) [Just about > anything] > The parts that have been used in the past [Ditto] > Parts that could theoretically be created [e.g. a PAL with a large enough OR > matrix to implement any function, and which will have as many programming > bits as a PROM] > Theoretical concepts [PDAs, Turing machines] > Yes, except that the last two are really not germane to the topic which was semantic. I don't disagree with you except in the sense that you continue to mix theoretical concepts with "real-world" ones. > > Otherwise there's no point in talking to you. > > You may not want to use the '163 any more. I use 'em if (a) I've got 'em, (b) there's room for 'em, (c) they're adequate to the task, (d) they can still be gotten readily for a repair. In part, that's why I take apart old computers that have socketed DIP's in 'em. Sometimes I use a torch and remove parts I know I may want. > Others may (particularly for > 1-off designs, it takes a lot less time to solder in a 16 pin chip than > to program a PAL). But whether or not you want to use it, it exists. It > certainly _has_ been used in the past. And it's still a state machine. > Well, I seldom have a "1-off" application that has a PCB laid out for a '163, since a PAL can contain more logic at less cost. That wasn't always the case, but 22V10's take up less space than two 16-pin DIP's, yet can provide precisely the same logic as two '163's, and, in fact, improve on them in that it can provide a synchronous carry. > > > Well, there are state machines that you can buy, e.g. the 4017, or the 74161, > > or the 74193, all counters of one sort or another. You can also put the > > Actually, by the normal definition of state machine in electronics, a > ripple counter is not a state machine... > A ripple counter's an ASYNCRHONOUS state machine, methinks, though those are considered bad form, but all the counters above are synchronous. The '161 and '193, like the '163, have ripple-carry, though the '193 gates the carry with the low phase of the clock. That makes the thing capable of dividing by 1, which the others can't reasonably do. The 4017 is a Johnson counter, which is synchronous also, though this one's decoded. From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Apr 13 05:39:51 2002 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Amiga haul in Topeka In-Reply-To: <3CB7B076.CF5F9ADA@ccp.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020412141510.03225938@pc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413063635.00b21a00@mail.wincom.net> At 11:13 PM 12/04/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Approximately $2 per card. That doesn't include the two A2000s, one >A2000 mother board, 12 megs of brand new 1 meg 30 pin SIMMS, a new >Kickstart 3.1 ROM and a 33c93 SCSI chip. Also got several Apple 3.5" >drives off the scrap pile, and a commodore 64 for keyboard parts. If I >add all that, I guess the cost per card is about $1 to $1.50 depending >on how you count your beans. > >Hope you're sitting down while reading that, and on oxygen. I still >pinch myself thinking it is a dream . . . . > >Yeah, I thiught it was the dregs from NewTek, but one A2000 has a >Washburn University (also in Topeka). If it was Newtek, why would they >need ethernet with their Toasters??? I'm doing some research, and I'll >let the list memebers know exactly where they came from, once I retrace >the trail. > >Gary Hildebrand >St. Joseph Hi, Gary: If you find any D.P.S. time base corrector cards in the Amiga collection, I have a friend who is trying to track some down. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From meltie at myrealbox.com Sat Apr 13 07:14:59 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1018700102.3188.2.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> I would think that a few piccys of the finished unit would be nice too! Alex From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 13 07:39:49 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change References: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CB82715.7060408@texoma.net> Jay, I have a spare stick of 256mb PC-133 SDRAM to contribute if that's the type you need. I think I also have a 256 DDR if that's what you need. Let me know. James Jay West wrote: >Greetings; > >FYI - at some point in the not too distant future (read weeks) I want to >move the classiccmp list onto a different machine (but same location). This >isn't being done for cpu/memory load or bandwidth reasons, it's mainly for >logistical reasons. So - one machine will be dedicated to handling all >classiccmp list traffic and that is all it will do. Right now the machine >the list is on is also one of several doing backup DNS and mail for the ISP. >Once the classiccmp stuff is moved it will also be shadowed by some of our >other servers, but the primary server will be dedicated to classiccmp. > >I am perfectly willing to subsidize the entire cost of the hardware for the >new machine. However, I am also willing to accept any donations of cash or >hardware to cover the cost. I will host the machine and maintain it always >for free, but the initial hardware would be nice to get some help with >(although not required!). Here are the components and costs. If anyone has >any of the components to spare and is willing to donate them, great - or if >you want to kick in some cash to defray the cost - great too. But whatever >people don't cover, I'm willing to cover myself even if it is the entire >amount. > >ASUS micro-ATX motherboard with built in video and network interface: $65.00 >Intel celeron 1.2ghz $80 >Teac Floppy: $10 >IDE CD-ROM: $30 >256mb RAM: $80 >30gb ultra IDE hard drive: $0 (I already have this sitting around, but a 2nd >to mirror might be nice) >1U rackmount chassis: $150 > >In order to address the previously discussed issues of [offlist] tags and >html rejection, as well as because of a lot of other nifty features, I'm >also considering using mailman. It gives a wonderfull web interface for >those that want to do their subscribes/unsubscribes & the like on their own. >Yes, it still supports email subscribtion requestions. Basically, it gives >me a lot of flexibility and options that majordomo doesn't. Not sure about >this all yet. > >Thanks! > >Jay West > > > >. > From rmurphy at itm-inst.com Sat Apr 13 07:40:43 2002 From: rmurphy at itm-inst.com (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Free TK50 cartridges In-Reply-To: <15517207364.20020413024038@subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413083832.00a6f990@mail.itm-inst.com> At 02:40 AM 4/13/02 -0500, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: >I have a line on "at least 32 tk-50 tape cartridges" for free in (I think) >Ohio. If you want these, follow the sig instructions and mail me. I may then >put you in contact with the owner. If these are of interest, I have around 100 of them available in Northern Virginia. -Rick From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 13 08:56:07 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <3CB7B3EA.3645C35C@ccp.com> Message-ID: <20020413135607.64722.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I picked up a PCI ethernet card today that is both 10 Base T and 10 Base > 2 outputs. Not common anymore, but can be handy. > Now I will have a crash (bad term) course in networking, > especially across different platforms. I think there are some good how-tos off of linux.org... > I'm wondering if this card is capable of using both outputs at once; > i.e. base 2 to my Amiga Etherrnet and base T to a cable modem or hub. No. No card with multiple media can do that - they do make media converters that do have two physical connectors (10BaseT<->10BaseFL, 10Base2<->10BaseT, etc), but that is a device designed for it. You also cannot attach two tranceivers through a gender bender and get anywhere, even if you provide power. OTOH, there are devices like the DEC DELNI that do have multiple AUIs, but again, it's designed for it. > If it is an exclusive OR situation, I guess I'll have to get another NIC > for another input/output. It is. You will, but only if you want to turn the PC into a router. What I have myself is a hub with 10BaseT, AUI _and_ 10Base2. An EN108, not an EN108TP. > If all else fails, then I put Linux in the Amiga . . . . . Why would you want to do that? Linux on the Amiga isn't special. Linux runs on most stuff above a certain level of sophistication (i.e., not on an XT), but AmigaDOS is perfect for Amigas. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 13 08:57:36 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Amiga Toaster was re: Amiga haul in Topeka In-Reply-To: <3CB7B25A.BB4E720B@ccp.com> References: <3CB7B25A.BB4E720B@ccp.com> Message-ID: >The Toaster 2000 and Toaster 4000 cards are different, and require >different software to operate. The physical difference is that the 4000 >card was made a bit shorter so it would easily fit in the standard slot >on an A3000 or A4000 desktop. The A2000 card was in its own dedicated >video card slot, and wasn't limited in lengh. I was always told that the later Toaster 4.X software would work with either the Toaster 2000 or 4000. Regardless of which Toaster was used, the A3000 still needed it's back panel hacked for all the video/audio connectors to fit. There's a full Toaster 2000 setup here locally in a small camera shop, manuals and disks included, but they want over $1000 for it. It's been sitting there quite a long time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 13 09:02:48 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >has died, which threw me off for a _long_ while, but I finally got a >boot monitor, and then brought up the OS. RSX-11M+ What version? If you've got a /93 the OS is probably fairly modern! The current is V4.6. What is the system using for a disk? > So will this guy boot from Tim Shoppa's RT-11 CD? No, none of Tim's CD's are bootable. Also, be aware, that it isn't exactly easy to find a hardware combination that will allow a PDP-11 to talk to a CD-ROM. I use a Viking SCSI controller (which needs almost current ROMs to be able to handle CD-ROM's) and a DEC RRD-42. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Apr 13 09:28:52 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) References: Message-ID: <026301c1e2f7$8b9a28a0$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 7:30 AM Subject: RE: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) > Okay I have it now working, vms is weird, To each his own. I find Unix wierd personally. > anyway here is a list of some of > the documentation: > volumes 3 to 10 of the programmers referance manuals. > VMS Fortran Volumes 1 and 2 > > I am stil sorting it all out. there Is heaps... The VMS Doc set ships on a pallet and is frequently referred to as the "Grey Wall" But it IS very comprehensive. Geoff in Oz From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Sat Apr 13 09:30:57 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <20020413135607.64722.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > You also cannot attach two tranceivers through a gender bender and get > anywhere, even if you provide power. OTOH, there are devices like the > DEC DELNI that do have multiple AUIs, but again, it's designed for it. They have a bunch of these over at Purdue Salvage. I think I might grab one for 'fun'. Let me know if anyone else wants any. If not, is there anything 'useful' inside? If they aren't wanted by anyone, I'd rather scrap them for parts then see them in a landfill. -- Pat From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Apr 13 09:34:29 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) References: <20020410005646.GU26665@mrbill.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020413132016.02348548@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <02e301c1e2f8$58a09410$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: Free MV3100/80 & Misc (Melbourne, .au) > At 09:10 AM 10/04/2002 -0500, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > >What a shame. I just recently joined the list hoping to find a system to > >run OpenVMS on. I spot one that needs a home and it's on the other side > >of the world. The search continues ... You think you got problems, I own the only Vaxen in this city. > I could be nasty and say it makes a change :-) Normally all the cool stuff > is half way around the world away. Concur. > I'm also in Melbourne Australia..... Port Pirie, South Australia. Cheers Geoff in Oz From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Sat Apr 13 09:52:01 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: DEC AUI stuff (was re: A2065 Ethernet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > You also cannot attach two tranceivers through a gender bender and get > > anywhere, even if you provide power. OTOH, there are devices like the > > DEC DELNI that do have multiple AUIs, but again, it's designed for it. > > They have a bunch of these over at Purdue Salvage. I think I might grab > one for 'fun'. Let me know if anyone else wants any. If not, is there > anything 'useful' inside? If they aren't wanted by anyone, I'd rather > scrap them for parts then see them in a landfill. > Looks like I'm getting my DEC 5-letter scrambles confused. I don't remember what it was called, but it has a pair of AUIs on the back, DEC and its name on the front, and that's about it. Network bridge of some sort? I didn't see any other ports like a console or anything. -- Pat From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Apr 13 09:57:39 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Amiga haul in Topeka In-Reply-To: <3CB7B076.CF5F9ADA@ccp.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020412141510.03225938@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020413095102.03225d80@pc> At 11:13 PM 4/12/2002 -0500, Gary Hildebrand wrote: >Yeah, I thiught it was the dregs from NewTek, but one A2000 has a >Washburn University (also in Topeka). If it was Newtek, why would they >need ethernet with their Toasters??? I'm doing some research, and I'll >let the list memebers know exactly where they came from, once I retrace >the trail. Why does anyone need a network? Of course they used them. It certainly sounds like a haul from one location - or for that matter, maybe Newtek donated a bunch to Washburn, or when they left town. Yup, those Ethernet cards still fetch a few bucks on eBay. They're a must for keeping an Amiga useful these days. For that matter, I still think a Toaster would be a useful standalone at the average community access cable channel, as long as it could stay alive. It would also be a great platform for driving a community guide channel (text crawl, scroll, info pages, etc.) that was linked to the web and to e-mail. I daydream about doing that. I don't know if there's an easy way to do that on a PC these days. Once upon a time, I wrote the first version of the "Video Toaster for Windows". Like many apps, the Toaster was highly controllable via ARexx, and these commands could come in the serial port. Newtek needed a splash for COMDEX, so I wrote a GUI in Visual BASIC running on a PS/2. It spit out ARexx via the serial port to a Toaster under the table. It had some of the same functionality as the Amiga GUI, except it was driven under Windows. The sad fact is that it won the "Best New Product of the Show" crystal trophy at that COMDEX. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, or to the Amiga under the table skirt. - John From thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de Sat Apr 13 09:44:48 2002 From: thilo.schmidt at unix-ag.uni-siegen.de (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-Apr-2002 Tony Duell wrote: [excursion to theoretical computer science] > Then there's the Turing machnie. Again an fsm with infinite memory (the > 'tape), but memory that can be sequenctially accessed one cell at a time. > I believe nobody has ever proposed a machine that's more powerful than > the turing machine. I also seem to remember that a PDA with _2_ separate > infinite stacks is proveably equivalent to a Turing machine. Yes, because if you put everything on the second stack what you took from the first stack you can simulate a tape... :-) > OK, those of you who actually learnt some computer science, please > correct the above... Not necessary, AFAIK everything said above was correct. To get the hierarchy ("<=>" means equivalent): FSMs <=> regular languages <=> primitive recursive functions PDAs <=> context free languages <=> partial recursive functions Turing Machines <=> context sensitive languages <=> computable functions But this is getting heavily OT, so everyone further interested should read the book about automata theory by Hopcroft and Ullman. (I hope I got the names right, I've got the book but can't find it right now) bye Thilo -- I am professionally trained in computer science, which is to say (in all seriousness) that I am extremely poorly educated. -- Joseph Weizenbaum, "Computer Power and Human Reason" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 13 10:15:17 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001201c1e2b1$a9137d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB84B85.B287F061@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: (computer science stuff) > I told it was a semantic quagmire. I really don't care what it was called. > > Of course you can build a stack without a counter. In the real world a > > shift register will do it (I've used a row of 'F194s to make a subroutine > > stack). Or a pile of bits of paper with numbers written on them :-). You > > do not have to make a stack (particulary not in the 'theoretical world') > > using a counter > > > Oh forgive me for trying to be practical. It takes a LOT of shift registers > to build what you can build with an up/down counter and a RAM. Shift register stacks do have the advantage of being fast. Did not the 8008 or the 4004 use a 8 level stack for subroutine calls. A calculator chip at that time only needed 4 functions. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Apr 13 10:36:41 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Ok, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I was looking for any ideas as to make a 3.5" or 5.25" drive bay LED array for my SCSI that I have running. Something that will allow for both SCSI controller LED's and then 3 or 4 LED's for HDD activity. Also, wondering if anyone knew how to make an LED that shows Ethernet connectivity and activity to interact with a standard ATX board and an old AMD PCNet II PCI Ethernet card. The whole reason I am interested in doing this is that now that I am running more than one machine tucked under my desk, I'd like to be able to see if something is wrong without having to open the damned thing or going desk diving for a failed NIC. Yes, it sounds lazy, but the idea of a front panel diagnostic isn't so bad and could also be used for other machines, correct? Besides, lots of blinky lights always impress company when people or clientele come over, grin. So again, any ideas? -John Boffemmyer IV ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From rmurphy at itm-inst.com Sat Apr 13 10:46:07 2002 From: rmurphy at itm-inst.com (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: DEC AUI stuff (was re: A2065 Ethernet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413114526.00a601d0@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:52 AM 4/13/02 -0500, pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: >Looks like I'm getting my DEC 5-letter scrambles confused. I don't >remember what it was called, but it has a pair of AUIs on the back, DEC >and its name on the front, and that's about it. Network bridge of some >sort? I didn't see any other ports like a console or anything. That's the DEBNT. (10 Megabit ethernet bridge). -Rick From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 13 10:50:29 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change References: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1018700102.3188.2.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <006c01c1e302$f070d250$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was planning on a photo of it after it gets into the rack :) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex White" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 7:14 AM Subject: Re: list server computer hardware will change > I would think that a few piccys of the finished unit would be nice too! > > Alex > > > From djenner at earthlink.net Sat Apr 13 11:07:08 2002 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <3CB857AC.CC85E1B3@earthlink.net> If, perchance, you have proper ASUS motherboards, you can use the ASUS iPanel. Do a google search for "ASUS iPanel". As an example, see http://www.tweakmax.com/html/ipanel/ipanel-1.cfm If you don't have ASUS motherboards, the iPanel at least might give you some ideas. Dave John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > Ok, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I was looking for any ideas as to > make a 3.5" or 5.25" drive bay LED array for my SCSI that I have running. > Something that will allow for both SCSI controller LED's and then 3 or 4 > LED's for HDD activity. Also, wondering if anyone knew how to make an LED > that shows Ethernet connectivity and activity to interact with a standard > ATX board and an old AMD PCNet II PCI Ethernet card. > The whole reason I am interested in doing this is that now that I am > running more than one machine tucked under my desk, I'd like to be able to > see if something is wrong without having to open the damned thing or going > desk diving for a failed NIC. Yes, it sounds lazy, but the idea of a front > panel diagnostic isn't so bad and could also be used for other machines, > correct? Besides, lots of blinky lights always impress company when people > or clientele come over, grin. So again, any ideas? > -John Boffemmyer IV > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 11:08:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001201c1e2b1$a9137d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB84B85.B287F061@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001c01c1e305$6a2c14e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'd say they're pretty practical for shallow stacks. However, when one is exploring the realm of stack-driven architectures, you need a pretty deep one. Admittedly, I completely spaced the shift register approach to stacks, but that was because the deepest stack I'd ever seen with shift registers was about 2K deep. That was an old-timer, though. It used a bunch of 2513 shift registers (in TO-5 cans) on a board dedicated to that purpose. see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:15 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > (computer science stuff) > > I told it was a semantic quagmire. > I really don't care what it was called. > > > > Of course you can build a stack without a counter. In the real world a > > > shift register will do it (I've used a row of 'F194s to make a subroutine > > > stack). Or a pile of bits of paper with numbers written on them :-). You > > > do not have to make a stack (particulary not in the 'theoretical world') > > > using a counter > > > > > Oh forgive me for trying to be practical. It takes a LOT of shift registers > > to build what you can build with an up/down counter and a RAM. > > Shift register stacks do have the advantage of being fast. Did not the > 8008 or the 4004 use a 8 level stack for subroutine calls. A calculator > chip at that time only needed 4 functions. > That seems reasonable, but in what time-frame are you thinking? > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 13 11:15:59 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: classiccmp hardware status... Message-ID: <009b01c1e306$82a5d6e0$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So far, cash ($35) has been donated as well as the following hardware... 256mb RAM 32X IDE CDROM 1.44mb floppy drive Quite a few people have asked if I can take the donations via paypal... so my paypal id is jwest@classiccmp.org It is a personal paypal account, so as I understand it, you can send donations if you have a verified paypal bank account. They have to come from a bank account, not a credit card. Also - I don't wish to have extra cash left over from any donations. So I'll probably work out something where if there is cash left over, the extra amount is divided up among the people who donated based on their percentage of donation and send them cash back. Or it could be kept in case hardware fails, but I really don't want to go down that route. In any case, once the hardware is all purchased and covered, I will post an accounting of each amount or hardware donated so everyone knows it's all above-board so to speak. My sincere thanks! Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 13 11:20:27 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Ok, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I was looking for any ideas as to > make a 3.5" or 5.25" drive bay LED array for my SCSI that I have running. > Something that will allow for both SCSI controller LED's and then 3 or 4 > LED's for HDD activity. Also, wondering if anyone knew how to make an LED > that shows Ethernet connectivity and activity to interact with a standard > ATX board and an old AMD PCNet II PCI Ethernet card. You've got way too much spare time. ;^) Actually, it's a nifty idea. I've never tried running a long (more than about 6") lead to drive LEDs, but that part should be very easy. Your SCSI adapter has a header for a bus activity LED, and AFAIK, every SCSI drive I own still has a pair of pins for an external LED. Just a matter of tracking the jumper diagrams and mounting the LEDs If you've ever watched inside the box while it boots, you already know that you can have individual drive activity LEDs (on the drive by default) _and_ the bus LED. The ethernet indicators are even easier. Put the switch/hub where you can see it. ;) Or, I don't have a PCNet card, but I just looked through my box. On all the NICs I have, assuming you're handy with desoldering tools, it looks like it should be fairly easy to hijack the entire LED housing and just "extend the pins" by a couple of feet. Again, I don't know if the power to the NIC's LEDs will support a longer run, but I can't see that you could hurt much by trying. Doc From at258 at osfn.org Sat Apr 13 11:25:21 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: RA90 parts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: As a result of an unloading infelicity, we could use about 7 RA90 plastic front panels. Would anyone have any floating about? From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 11:24:40 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <002601c1e307$b6584940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Ah, yes, blinkenlights ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boffemmyer IV" To: "Classic Comp" Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:36 AM Subject: looking for ideas... > Ok, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I was looking for any ideas as to > make a 3.5" or 5.25" drive bay LED array for my SCSI that I have running. Do you mean activity indicators for each drive? There's normally a tap on the drive that will drive an indicator LED. > Something that will allow for both SCSI controller LED's and then 3 or 4 > LED's for HDD activity. Also, wondering if anyone knew how to make an LED > that shows Ethernet connectivity and activity to interact with a standard > ATX board and an old AMD PCNet II PCI Ethernet card. Doesn't your hub have an activity indicator? If you want all the activity indicators at a single location, i.e. on a panel, you simply put a phototransistor against each one, using some temporary adhesive to hold it in place, and route the emitter to ground, and the collector to the cathode of the LED on your panel, with the anode connected to a resistor to Vcc. Where you get the Vcc is up to you, of course. Each time one of the activity LED's anywhere lights up, it turns on the photo transistor, which turns on the LED on your panel. You'll have lots of fun routing the wires, but once it's in place, it should do what you want. If you drill a panel for your LED's, paint it white, then print your legends on a piece of mylar, you can generate a nice panel by contact printing the mylar onto a sheet of film, which you then develop. Now you have a black film with clear lettering over a white background, which shows your LED's and the accompanying legends quite nicely, and looks VERY professional if you are neat and clean about your work. > The whole reason I am interested in doing this is that now that I am > running more than one machine tucked under my desk, I'd like to be able to > see if something is wrong without having to open the damned thing or going > desk diving for a failed NIC. Yes, it sounds lazy, but the idea of a front Why would you think you've got a failed NIC? How would the "heartbeat" help determine that? I've had only one fail in about 20 years. They're not that fragile. If you want blinkenlights, you certainly should have them, but I doubt it will provide much value in detecting a failed NIC. > panel diagnostic isn't so bad and could also be used for other machines, > correct? Besides, lots of blinky lights always impress company when people > or clientele come over, grin. So again, any ideas? > -John Boffemmyer IV > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 13 11:49:50 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: 8-sectored, gold colored RK-05 pack? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413083832.00a6f990@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <3CB861AE.5DEA75C@tiac.net> Here's a little quiz... What takes a pack physically identical to an RK-05 pack, but only has 8 sector slots cut into the rim (and the index slot of course)? Could this be a HP 7900 pack? Whatever it is, I have one, New Old Stock, in the original box. Who needs it, and what do you have to trade? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 13 11:44:35 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <001201c1e2b1$a9137d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB84B85.B287F061@jetnet.ab.ca> <001c01c1e305$6a2c14e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB86073.72526723@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'd say they're pretty practical for shallow stacks. However, when one is > exploring the realm of stack-driven architectures, you need a pretty deep one. > Admittedly, I completely spaced the shift register approach to stacks, but > that was because the deepest stack I'd ever seen with shift registers was > about 2K deep. That was an old-timer, though. It used a bunch of 2513 shift > registers (in TO-5 cans) on a board dedicated to that purpose. Wow - can's that is REAL old and expensive logic. > > Shift register stacks do have the advantage of being fast. Did not the > > 8008 or the 4004 use a 8 level stack for subroutine calls. A calculator > > chip at that time only needed 4 functions. > > > That seems reasonable, but in what time-frame are you thinking? Late 1970's. While more functions are useful, Most low end calculators ($3?) just do the 4 functions. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 13 11:57:20 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: 8-sectored, gold colored RK-05 pack? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413083832.00a6f990@mail.itm-inst.com> <3CB861AE.5DEA75C@tiac.net> Message-ID: <011f01c1e30c$47a28330$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> not a 7900 - those are 24 hard sector + 1 index slot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 11:49 AM Subject: 8-sectored, gold colored RK-05 pack? > Here's a little quiz... > > What takes a pack physically identical to an RK-05 pack, but only has 8 sector > slots cut into the rim (and the index slot of course)? > > Could this be a HP 7900 pack? > > Whatever it is, I have one, New Old Stock, in the original box. > > Who needs it, and what do you have to trade? > > > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Apr 13 11:57:39 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020413125739.01a0fd78@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >ASUS micro-ATX motherboard with built in video and network interface: $65.00 Hmmm... good price! >30gb ultra IDE hard drive: $0 (I already have this sitting around, but a 2nd >to mirror might be nice) If you want to go SCSI, I have a spare Diamond Fireport 40 I could send you - single-channel, Ultra-Wide SCSI-3 - works wonderfully under *nix, and any Winders short of XP. I might be able to scare up a SCSI drive as well... but the biggest I own is 9G, so if you needed something bigger, you'd need to look for donations (but I might have a line on some "less expensive" 18Giggers...) >1U rackmount chassis: $150 Nice price - if you don't mind my asking, where'd you land that price at, and either 1) does that include a PCI riser card, or at least 2) are they available for that case I have a MicroATX Celery (566) that I'd like to rackmount... HTH, and thankz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 13 12:08:57 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change References: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1018700102.3188.2.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> <006c01c1e302$f070d250$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CB86629.60107@internet1.net> How about a photo of the guts too :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jay West wrote: > I was planning on a photo of it after it gets into the rack :) > > Jay From mranalog at attbi.com Sat Apr 13 13:23:46 2002 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Paper tape encoding scheme needed Message-ID: <3CB877B2.FAF3886@attbi.com> Bill Richman wrote: >... > while having the reader software ignore them, I'd like to follow some > kind of established standard. Can anyone give me any pointers on > this? Since DATA I/O makes a paper tape reader to connect to some of their PROM programmers, there a great description of various paper tape and data formats included in their PROM programmer manuals. http://www.spies.com/arcade/TE/DataIO29A.pdf See Appendix A Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog Analogrechner, calculateur analogique, calcolatore analogico, analoogrekenaar, komputer analogowy, analog bilgisayar, kampiutere ghiyasi, analoge computer. ========================================= From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 13 14:01:01 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: U571, the prequel? References: <20020413135607.64722.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003101c1e31d$8e1852c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> It was mentioned on NPR this morning that there's a movie coming up about the crackers of the enigma. Apparently the successes of Good Will Hunting and A Beautiful Mind have made scientists heroes again. Anyone know the title of this movie? John A. From rhb57 at vol.com Sat Apr 13 14:04:47 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: I'm not sure if this is what you need but in my case with my old IBM PC Server 320, that only had one LED connection, and I wanted to see activity from both controllers ont he same LED, so I made a Y cable of the straight rhu, but I put in diodes to prevent current flow from (say) controller 1 activity to the LED and pins of controller2. I only wanted flow one way, to the led. I then removed that and went to a multi-color, multi-input LED that blinked green for controller 1 and yellow for 2. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV => Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 10:37 AM => To: Classic Comp => Subject: looking for ideas... => => => Ok, I know this is a bit off-topic, but I was looking for any => ideas as to => make a 3.5" or 5.25" drive bay LED array for my SCSI that I have => running. => Something that will allow for both SCSI controller LED's and then 3 or 4 => LED's for HDD activity. Also, wondering if anyone knew how to => make an LED => that shows Ethernet connectivity and activity to interact with a => standard => ATX board and an old AMD PCNet II PCI Ethernet card. => The whole reason I am interested in doing this is that now that I am => running more than one machine tucked under my desk, I'd like to => be able to => see if something is wrong without having to open the damned => thing or going => desk diving for a failed NIC. Yes, it sounds lazy, but the idea => of a front => panel diagnostic isn't so bad and could also be used for other machines, => correct? Besides, lots of blinky lights always impress company => when people => or clientele come over, grin. So again, any ideas? => -John Boffemmyer IV => => ---------------------------------------- => Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst => and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies => http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html => --------------------------------------- => => => From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Apr 13 15:50:57 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020413125739.01a0fd78@mail.30below.com> References: <013b01c1e240$fa364710$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413163715.00a19ec0@sokieserv.dhs.org> I actually own that FirePort 40 and after working with several guys over at LSI Logic (the now owners of SYMBIOS), I can assure you that XP works with it as well. Unfortunately, my FirePort is busy running in another machine with dual 4giggers. -John PS: about the "at first you don't succeed ... career choice" : neither should oil tanker driving while semi -intoxicated nor does wearing your wife's rubber dish gloves make you ready to handle bio hazard 4 contagions as a full time job at the [D[. Um yes, I have had one or two of my emails picked up recently from keywords that had nothing to do with what was being looked for. At 12:57 PM 4/13/02, you wrote: >Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: > > >ASUS micro-ATX motherboard with built in video and network interface: $65.00 > >Hmmm... good price! > > >30gb ultra IDE hard drive: $0 (I already have this sitting around, but a 2nd > >to mirror might be nice) > >If you want to go SCSI, I have a spare Diamond Fireport 40 I could send you >- single-channel, Ultra-Wide SCSI-3 - works wonderfully under *nix, and any >Winders short of XP. I might be able to scare up a SCSI drive as well... >but the biggest I own is 9G, so if you needed something bigger, you'd need >to look for donations (but I might have a line on some "less expensive" >18Giggers...) > > >1U rackmount chassis: $150 > >Nice price - if you don't mind my asking, where'd you land that price at, >and either 1) does that include a PCI riser card, or at least 2) are they >available for that case I have a MicroATX Celery (566) that I'd like to >rackmount... > >HTH, and thankz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, ******* ******* >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From vp at mcs.drexel.edu Sat Apr 13 17:49:01 2002 From: vp at mcs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: HP IPC (update) Message-ID: <200204132249.SAA19207@king.mcs.drexel.edu> Joe wrote: > One of the options for the IPC is Technical BASIC in ROM. Yes, looking closer at the ROM cartridge I see that the TechBASIC code and version is on a sticker placed over the (larger) HP-UX sticker. I must consider myself really lucky for getting that ROM, otherwise I'd have to write shell scripts to program the IPC :-) I opened the ROM pack and it contains two PCBs, the larger contains the interface holes (where the pins sticking up from the IPC motherboard make contact) and contains the OS ROMs (it says OS ROM on the PCB), while the smaller sits on top of the OS PCB and contains the TechBASIC ROMs (it says OPTION ROM on the PCB). Each PCB contains two pairs of ROMs. OS are ROM0 (high and low) and ROM1 (High and Low). The TechBASIC are ROM2 (H and L) and ROM3 (H and L). Obviously since the ROMs are 8bit and the 68000 is 16 bit you need a pair of ROMs for each bank. The OPTION ROM PCB has a very straightforward interface since it contains just the 4 ROMs. I am not sure of the capacity of the ROMs but I wouldn't think that they are likely to be larger that 64Kbytes each. Now that we can get far larger PROMs, if the images of the SE ROM were available, would it be possible to construct an OPTION ROM PCB with everything in it? > [...] C compiler (I think it includes an assembler) [...] Thats great news I was thinking about setting up gcc on my OpenBSD system as a cross compiler for the IPC, but in that case I'd need to recreate the system libraries and include files. Is there any way you can put them up for ftp? ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > HPIL is a loop, not a bus (strictly). Guilty as charged, I was over simplifying to the point of being wrong. I have a collection of HP-IL calculators and peripherals so I've had first hand experience of things failing to work because of breaks (or powered down devices) in the loop. > Be careful. External HPIL ports are supposed to be transformer-isolated > (using a special HP pulse transformer module, 9100-4226 IIRC). Every > HPIL device with the external connector will contain said transformer. yes I've been thinking about where to get such a transformer (and the dual HP-IL socket). I was thinking of cannibalizing an HP-IL module for the HP-41. > Is this the Thinkjet cartridge (little clear plastic thing with a black > rubber ink sack inside)? If so, then the printer electronics is likely to > be close to the Thinkjet as well Its a Thinkjet all right. I have both the HP-IB and the HP-IL versions of the Thinkjet and the mechanism and electronics of the printer in the Integral are very close to the HP-IL version of the Thinkjet. > If you have problems, then I've repaired enough Thinkjets to be able to > offer comments... Apart of having to clean the printer compartment of ink - unfortunately the IPC was shipped with a print cartridge installed :-( it works all right. However, the instructions for cartridge replacement in the HP-IL Thinkjet manual, imply that a small pad is supplied inside the cartridge packaging. This pad is supposed to be inserted in front of the the cartridge on the print-head. The new ink cartridges I have purchased do not have this pad and each time the machine powers up the Thinkjet deposits a blob of ink on the paper. Anybody knows of what can be used as a replacement for this pad? > This surprises me. A 1.44M drive _using 720K disks_ should have no > problems. Me too! I am routinely reading and writing 9114 floppies on my laptop but the IPC drive is particularly difficult. In the beginning I was really lost because I would prepare floppies and the IPC would just say no. At one point I thought there was something wrong with the drive itself. Once I got the 720K drive for my PC, the IPC capitulated. One interesting point is that using my "Unix" system (OpenBSD 2.9) I can dd images on a new 720K diskette (i.e. formatted for the IBM-PC) but the OpenBSD system barfs when I try to do the same on the same floppy once it has been formatted by the IPC. I have excluded alignment problems because I also have an 9122D external drive and have done tests with floppies prepared on these drives. Now that the IPC is usable, I am going to do more tests once I have some spare time. **vp From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat Apr 13 18:02:01 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix Message-ID: <3CB8B8E9.E474AFFF@adelphia.net> Hey All; Just picked up a Vax 4000/300 today with 2 RF71 DSSI drives, TK70, and I think 64MB ram... after I clean her up (its a little dusty) I was thinking about playing with Ultrix, as I have enough VMS machines... anyone know or try Ultrix 4.2 on the 4000/300? thats the latest I have for the vax platform.. I have 4.5 but thats for the MIPS which I run on my DECsystem 5000/240. Thanks -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat Apr 13 18:32:30 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E22@BUSH02> > Are you saying that a program in a mask programmed ROM is > not firmware? Because everybody else that I know would call it > that. > There are many who would disagree with them, Tony. One characteristic common to all definitions I've run into in firmware is that it's FIELD-Programmable. Another is that it's non-volatile, i.e. persists between power cycles. Richard, you seem to be forgetting all those adverts from the 70s and 80s that boasted "Firmware in ROM!". Also a quick look at a dictionary reveals ... 8^)= --------------------------------------------- firm?ware Pronunciation Key (f?rm w?r ) n. Computer programming instructions that are stored in a read-only memory unit rather than being implemented through software. Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. --------------------------------------------- firmware n : (computer science) coded instructions that are stored permanently in read-only memory. Source: WordNet ? 1.6, ? 1997 Princeton University --------------------------------------------- firmware Software stored in read-only memory (ROM) or programmable ROM (PROM). Easier to change than hardware but harder than software stored on disk. Firmware is often responsible for the behaviour of a system when it is first switched on. A typical example would be a "monitor" program in a microcomputer which loads the full operating system from disk or from a network and then passes control to it. Source: The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, ? 1993-2001 Denis Howe --------------------------------------------- Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 13 18:37:38 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Fw: Help on two new finds Message-ID: <006b01c1e344$33deb840$eb000240@default> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John R. Keys Jr." To: Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: Help on two new finds > Today I found a Black IBM external 8 inch drive at a Goodwill here for > $12.99. I checked google and could not find any real good info on it. > IBM's site was not much help either since this unit is from 1995. Anyone > have in details on it, I would like to hook it up to the AS/400 I got > the other day. > > Down at my warehouse while looking for some manuals I came across a box > that was addressed to someone in MN. I opened it and found a strange > looking keyboard/computer. It's black with gold stripes and says on the > front "System Logic / KBD-1 SYNERGISTIC DESIGN INC." . This is a > strange looking machine, the key caps are white clued on paper using > black and red print. Anyone have one of these along with a manual or > any information on it? Thanks in advance John > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 13 18:49:22 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: <3CB8B8E9.E474AFFF@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200204132349.g3DNnNX03488@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 13 Apr, David Barnes wrote: > anyone know or try Ultrix 4.2 on the 4000/300? Will not run. AFAIK the MV3800/3900 / KA655 was the last QBus machine that could run Ultrix. You have to go with VMS or NetBSD. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 13 19:00:32 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E22@BUSH02> Message-ID: <017c01c1e347$67d6d440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yep, I'm definitely wrong on this one. Somebody else was whipping on Tony and I, viscious beast that I am, jumped into the fight before geting my bearings. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davison, Lee" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:32 PM Subject: RE: TTL computing > > > Are you saying that a program in a mask programmed ROM is > > not firmware? Because everybody else that I know would call it > > that. > > Must be the coffee! There's no doubt that code living in ROM, field-programmable or not, is definitely firmware. No question about it. The notion that gets me wrapped around the axle all the time is the distinction between configuration of field programmable elements that would otherwise be hardware as opposed to those that contain what would, if it were RAM resident, be software. Clearly I got my context mixed up. > > > There are many who would disagree with them, Tony. One > characteristic common to all definitions I've run into in firmware > is that it's FIELD-Programmable. Another is that it's non-volatile, > i.e. persists between power cycles. > There's no reason to limit ROM/PROM contents to those that are field-programmable. I was clearly thinking about the PALs and not the code. > > Richard, you seem to be forgetting all those adverts from the 70s > and 80s that boasted "Firmware in ROM!". Also a quick look at a > dictionary reveals ... 8^)= > > --------------------------------------------- > firm?ware Pronunciation Key (f?rm w?r ) n. > Computer programming instructions that are stored in a > read-only memory unit rather than being implemented through > software. > > Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English > Language, Fourth Edition > Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. > --------------------------------------------- > firmware > > n : (computer science) coded instructions that are stored > permanently in read-only memory. > Source: WordNet ? 1.6, ? 1997 Princeton > University > --------------------------------------------- > firmware > > Software stored in read-only memory (ROM) or programmable ROM > (PROM). Easier to change than hardware but harder than software > stored on disk. Firmware is often responsible for the behaviour of a > system when it is first switched on. A typical example would be a > "monitor" program in a microcomputer which loads the full operating > system from disk or from a network and then passes control to it. > > Source: The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, > ? 1993-2001 Denis Howe > --------------------------------------------- > > Lee. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The > information contained in this email may contain information which is > confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender > and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. > > If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please > delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International > IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The > service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive > anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: > http://www.star.net.uk > ________________________________________________________________________ > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 13 19:03:04 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >has died, which threw me off for a _long_ while, but I finally got a > >boot monitor, and then brought up the OS. RSX-11M+ > > What version? If you've got a /93 the OS is probably fairly modern! The > current is V4.6. What is the system using for a disk? I dunno which version, and I whacked it in a fit of rage last night. Well, in a fit of "I want my UNIX!!" Now I'm sure I'll have 2.11BSD questions. :^) It's got a RZ24-E and a TZ30 hanging off an M5977 controller. > No, none of Tim's CD's are bootable. Also, be aware, that it isn't exactly > easy to find a hardware combination that will allow a PDP-11 to talk to a > CD-ROM. I use a Viking SCSI controller (which needs almost current ROMs to > be able to handle CD-ROM's) and a DEC RRD-42. That question was meant to be mostly tongue-in-cheek. I do have the RRD-42, but I was really figuring that anything I want to install will get read either from tape or across the wire. So far, I haven't found much hard info about the RQZX1. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 13 17:35:37 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB7A279.1FE47103@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 12, 2 09:14:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020413/02b6faf9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 13 18:18:45 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <006501c1e2c5$2677baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 13, 2 02:25:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/0cf39394/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 13 17:54:37 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001201c1e2b1$a9137d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 13, 2 00:08:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020413/e2f43c72/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 13 18:01:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <006401c1e2c5$263c3840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 13, 2 02:03:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/4a2ff8d2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 13 18:51:13 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <006e01c1e2c9$0ffe1c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 13, 2 02:56:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 10343 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/b1cef516/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 13 19:27:32 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... References: Message-ID: <003701c1e34b$48789940$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > the idea of a front panel diagnostic isn't so bad and could > also be used for other machines, correct? Besides, lots of > blinky lights always impress company. Sounds like a fun project. Somewhere between a logic analyzer.and a protocol analyzer I have no idea if IDE, 10BT, or other interfacing signals could be tapped off to drive LED's without disrupting the actual comms taking place. Just takes some electronics skills. I stop at resistors and TIP120's, this might take more than that. John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 13 19:32:07 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: U571, the prequel? References: <20020413135607.64722.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> <003101c1e31d$8e1852c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004701c1e34b$cf275bc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Apologies, I found that "Enigma" has already been released in the UK. I still have no idea when it'll be shown here in the US, though. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Allain To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 3:01 PM Subject: U571, the prequel? It was mentioned on NPR this morning that there's a movie coming up about the crackers of the Enigma. Apparently the successes of Good Will Hunting and A Beautiful Mind have made scientists heroes again. Anyone know the title of this movie? John A. From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 13 20:16:19 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: <200204132349.g3DNnNX03488@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > anyone know or try Ultrix 4.2 on the 4000/300? > Will not run. AFAIK the MV3800/3900 / KA655 was the last QBus machine > that could run Ultrix. You have to go with VMS or NetBSD. Especially since that machine isn't Qbus. It's main bus is that 4300+ PELE stuff. Peace... Sridhar From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sat Apr 13 20:34:32 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:22 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix References: <200204132349.g3DNnNX03488@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3CB8DCA8.90556B18@adelphia.net> hmm ok thanks for the info.. wonder what the problem is... CPU support not in the kernel? jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 13 Apr, David Barnes wrote: > > > anyone know or try Ultrix 4.2 on the 4000/300? > Will not run. AFAIK the MV3800/3900 / KA655 was the last QBus machine > that could run Ultrix. You have to go with VMS or NetBSD. > -- > > tschuess, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Apr 13 20:50:47 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413112732.00a18980@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020413204853.033fc578@pc> I'd think there would be a demand for a blinkenlights box like this that allowed you to clip a sensor on the hardware's LED and that relayed it to a remote LED on a panel. You could stick them on the hard disk lights, on Ethernet cards, on modems or hubs, or whatever. - John From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 13 21:15:34 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: <3CB8DCA8.90556B18@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, David Barnes wrote: > hmm ok thanks for the info.. wonder what the problem is... CPU support > not in the kernel? CPU, bus, probably a bunch of stuff. Your best bet is either VMS or NetBSD. Peace... Sridhar From louiss at gate.net Sat Apr 13 21:20:41 2002 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: SWTPC 6800 deal of the day. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020411155327.0081a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Today I acquired an SWPTC 6800 computer full of boards, an SWTPC AC-30 cassette interface, an SWTPC keyboard/terminal (in what looks like an old teletype case), a cassette recorder, some software on tape, and a camera tripod for $15. If it hadn't been for the tripod (which I didn't want anyway), the cost would probably have been $5. There appears to be a good deal of literature on the Web about this computer. One link I couldn't find was to Mike Dogas's page. Mike, you out there? The system looks like it hasn't been used in a very long time, and need a little attention before it gets plugged in. There is no CRT with the system, and I haven't had time to figure out exactly what is required with the SWTPC keyboard/terminal. But there are wires all over the place! Pointers to useful information appreciated, especially on how to get a disk system working with this system. Thanks, Louis From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 13 21:32:05 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question Message-ID: I should know this, but can't remember, are the Cab Kits for the DEQNA and DELQA interchangable? I was up in storage today and I seem to have more DEQNA Cab Kits than DEQNA's and the only DEQNA I could find was in a system, and I've got two DELQA's and no DELQA Cab Kits. On a possitive note, the Palm Pilot "Field Guide" I asked about last weekend came in very handy as I couldn't remember what boards I had (and of course my inventory list was at home). I ended up bringing home a lot more than I planned on as I found a couple of cool boards :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 13 21:55:43 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: SWTPC 6800 deal of the day. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Louis, I've got two functional SWTPc systems here, including a 6800, with full documentation. One of the more useful sites about these machines is Michael Holley's web site at: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html He's designed a new floppy controller for them and there is also a group working on an IDE interface. Jeff >Today I acquired an SWPTC 6800 computer full of boards, an SWTPC >AC-30 cassette interface, an >SWTPC keyboard/terminal (in what looks like an old teletype case), a >cassette recorder, some software on >tape, and a camera tripod for $15. If it hadn't been for the tripod >(which I didn't want anyway), the cost >would probably have been $5. > >There appears to be a good deal of literature on the Web about this >computer. One link I couldn't find was >to Mike Dogas's page. Mike, you out there? > >The system looks like it hasn't been used in a very long time, and >need a little attention before it gets >plugged in. > >There is no CRT with the system, and I haven't had time to figure >out exactly what is required with the >SWTPC keyboard/terminal. But there are wires all over the place! > >Pointers to useful information appreciated, especially on how to get >a disk system working with this system. > >Thanks, > >Louis -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 13 22:24:34 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: SWTPC 6800 deal of the day. References: Message-ID: <3CB8F672.ECBBA29A@jetnet.ab.ca> Louis Schulman wrote: > > Today I acquired an SWPTC 6800 computer full of boards, an SWTPC AC-30 cassette interface, an > SWTPC keyboard/terminal (in what looks like an old teletype case), a cassette recorder, some software on > tape, and a camera tripod for $15. If it hadn't been for the tripod (which I didn't want anyway), the cost > would probably have been $5. No you want the tripod, how else can you take digital pictures of yourself working on the machine for future reference. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Apr 13 22:29:17 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: my little idea... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413231336.00a2c8f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Well, from the overwhelming response already, it seems like a good one =) Now for an important issue: I have no real clue of electronics pathways, circuity (board level repairs), soldering, etc. nor am I knowledgeable of electrical currents, signalling or anything else necessary. I have quickly realized this. If I paid money is some form or means, would it be possible for someone to actually set this up in a provided 5.25" or 3.5" bay blank? I am fully willing to pay for components, shipping and labor. The concept is thus: 2 LED's for SCSI controller I/O, 2 LED's for Ethernet and 4 LED's for SCSI drives. Was hoping for SCSI LED's to be orange, Ethernet to be yellow and SCSI drives to be possibly blue. I would have to assume that even the blue LED's can be obtained reasonably from somewhere to make this work. Again, I am ignorant of electrical work and this is why I ask for help. The SCSI controller is an LSI Logic 22910, the Ethernet controller is an IBM PCI Ethernet adapter (AMD PC-Net II) and I think the SCSI drives for front panel LED's are pretty standard. I DO HAVE THE SHEETS ON ALL OF THESE. Anyone interested? Please email me in private: john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org I am a computer technician and network troubleshooter. I am in NO way a rocket scientist or experienced avid hobbiest like some of my brethren here. Many of you have this knowledge and experience, please help if you can. ...BTW Doc, yes, I really do have too much time on my hands sometimes... when I am not commuting 2 hours each way to work and putting in 42hr+ work weeks. The weekends become a lull and boredom sinks in... that is when my damned mind rears it's ugly head and starts thinking (I hate when it does that). Thanks gang, John ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 13 22:40:16 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CB8FA20.291AF889@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Everyone knows you can get 'universal' device programmers that program > PROMs, PALs, GALs, EPROMs, microcontrollers, and so on. The original > question was clearly asking whether early PALs used a similar programming > algorithm to the bipolar PROMs of the same time period. I don't think > they ever did. But most companies think $500 is low cost for a programer. > But just as some enthusiasts like making and operating sailing ships, so > some enthusiasts like wiring up TTL. I like designing computers. I don't like wireing TTL. $125 US is the lowest cost CPLD developent kit I have seen. A $15 chip replaces 15 TTL at $.50 each -- $7.50 .I guess the savings must be in sockets and PCB board size. > -tony -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 13 22:49:55 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I should know this, but can't remember, are the Cab Kits for the DEQNA and > DELQA interchangable? > > I was up in storage today and I seem to have more DEQNA Cab Kits than > DEQNA's and the only DEQNA I could find was in a system, and I've got two > DELQA's and no DELQA Cab Kits. Looks like not. The DELQA has a couple more lines. It looks like a pretty easy patch job, though. I have a cab kit for the DELQA and no board. :) Calling the pin above the plugged pin # 1 on the 24-pin female block, and going down then over (X is plugged): 1 13 X 14 3 15 4 16 5 17 6 18 7 19 8 20 9 21 10 22 11 23 12 24 DELQA cab pinout, using the AUI's marked pin numbers: 24-pin AUI 3 6 4 5 6 3 7 4 ground? Heavy multi-strand looks-like-aluminum 8 2 10 7 11 fuse - center spad3 14 fuse - end spade 17 12 19 10 21 9 23 15 fuse - center 13 HTH. Doc From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Apr 13 23:06:33 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: HSC90: who knows what K.ci status 111 means? Message-ID: <3CB90049.1050809@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, few days ago I moved my HSC90 into the basement and today I changed the power-plug to a 4-prong household kind, plugged it in and it actually powered up. I could even boot it from the RX33 disk that had been sitting for years on a scrap yard. All good news. But seems like I have a serious error in the CI "host adapter" and the HSC User Manual doesn't say anything about it. the K.ci fails DIT with status 111. SHOW ALL says that K.ci was not detected. The three boards show the follwing lights: | R | R R 1 2 3 where "R" marks a red LED and | marks a row of yellow LEDs. Notably the green LEDs underneath the red ones don't come on whereas they do come on on all the SI interfaces. Knowing that the CI is finnicky with unterminated ports I did connect all four to the star coupler. But it didn't change the error. Are my cards broken? I hope there's some other oversight that can be uncovered with the deciphering of the status 111. Thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Sat Apr 13 23:09:16 2002 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: SWTPC 6800 deal of the day. References: Message-ID: <003301c1e36a$251f2080$9865fea9@downstairs> Look on my site at www.swtpc.com and follow the New Pages link or go to swtpc.home.attbi.com . You will find documents on the CT-1024 terminal and the AC-30. At the bottom of the "New Pages" page is a link to testing a SWTPC 6800. If you need a floppy disk contoller, I sell a new one designed in 2001. Michael Holley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 7:20 PM Subject: SWTPC 6800 deal of the day. > Today I acquired an SWPTC 6800 computer full of boards, an SWTPC AC-30 cassette interface, an > SWTPC keyboard/terminal (in what looks like an old teletype case), a cassette recorder, some software on > tape, and a camera tripod for $15. If it hadn't been for the tripod (which I didn't want anyway), the cost > would probably have been $5. > > There appears to be a good deal of literature on the Web about this computer. One link I couldn't find was > to Mike Dogas's page. Mike, you out there? > > The system looks like it hasn't been used in a very long time, and need a little attention before it gets > plugged in. > > There is no CRT with the system, and I haven't had time to figure out exactly what is required with the > SWTPC keyboard/terminal. But there are wires all over the place! > > Pointers to useful information appreciated, especially on how to get a disk system working with this system. > > Thanks, > > Louis > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 13 23:29:27 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: my little idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020413231336.00a2c8f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > can. ...BTW Doc, yes, I really do have too much time on my hands > sometimes... when I am not commuting 2 hours each way to work and putting > in 42hr+ work weeks. The weekends become a lull and boredom sinks in... > that is when my damned mind rears it's ugly head and starts thinking (I > hate when it does that). LOL I do hope you realize that, having spent roughly 22 of the last 28 hours getting 2.11BSD up on a PDP-11, I have no room to talk. I really liked John's idea of simply attaching either a sensor or maybe an optic fiber to the existing LEDs and relaying that to your panel. Most of the stuff you want to see is already blinken away in the box. Your geographical location would be a good thing for potential volunteers to know. Doc From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Apr 13 23:31:28 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: RA90 parts References: Message-ID: <3CB90620.4030400@aurora.regenstrief.org> Merle K. Peirce wrote: > As a result of an unloading infelicity, we could use about 7 RA90 plastic > front panels. Would anyone have any floating about? Oh, oh, I can imagine what rack that was :-) PS: Merle, I have been having some trouble with my RA90s and it's getting worse with some. So, may be you want to watch out for whole replacements. Dave McGuire has some in the DC/MA area. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Apr 13 23:42:58 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: What's wrong with the classiccmp list server? Message-ID: <3CB908D2.8030902@aurora.regenstrief.org> since about 1 or 2 weeks classiccmp seems to silently discard my postings without any error. What's wrong? Am I the only one who has that problem? thanks -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Apr 13 23:46:39 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: test, disregard please Message-ID: <3CB909AF.9010104@aurora.regenstrief.org> sorry, classiccmp stopped forwarding my messages. I just resubscribed and this is a probe to see if it works now. From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 13 23:52:56 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: my little idea... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > Your geographical location would be a good thing for potential > volunteers to know. He's in Newburgh, NY. Peace... Sridhar From hansp at aconit.org Sun Apr 14 01:00:07 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Olivetti PC/1 question Message-ID: <3CB91AE7.105@aconit.org> I would like to know the price of an Olivetti PC/1 at time of its release in 1988, preferably in Italy where it was presumably first available. Thanks, -- HBP From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 14 01:00:08 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-I VMS support? Message-ID: <15545.6888.270414.776212@phaduka.neurotica.com> Can anyone tell me the latest release of VMS that will run on a MicroVAX-I? The last one I ran had 4.5 on it, but I'd like to run at least 4.7 or 5.x. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From mikeykmc at hotmail.com Fri Apr 12 03:58:16 2002 From: mikeykmc at hotmail.com (mikeykmc@hotmail.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP Message-ID: WHERE CAN I FIND A FREE WIN OP SYS SETUP SOFTWARE FOR MY COMPAQ SLT286? IT ALREADY HAS DOS/WIN INSTALLED BUT I CANNOT ACCESS IT- WIN? WIN3.1? I DUUHHHH DUNNO....!!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020411/9a04bd66/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 02:28:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001501c1e385$fe7ac9e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Did not the early PAL's burn on PROM programers? (512x8 fuse prom) > > > Sadly this not true today. > > > > > My "early" PALs program on the same programmer that programs my bipolar PROMs, > > and my current-generation GALs as well. > > Everyone knows you can get 'universal' device programmers that program > PROMs, PALs, GALs, EPROMs, microcontrollers, and so on. The original > question was clearly asking whether early PALs used a similar programming > algorithm to the bipolar PROMs of the same time period. I don't think > they ever did. > Yes, they did, "burn" in programming circuits similar to what was used to program bipolar PROMs. These were simple circuits pretty completely specified in the datasheets. The process of specifying which fuse was to be programmed how was less well specified, but with enough attention, you could figure it out. Once MMI was no longer a player, and Signetics was sold to Philips, the programming circuits and logic quickly disappeared from the scene. Both Signetics and MMI had published circuits that could be used to program bipolar proms. The same strategies and similar circuits were used to program the small bipolar PALs. The details on how to address the various fuses was less clearly specified as time wore on, ultimately disappearing completely. The circuits that did the work were based on multiple voltage regulators and a few switches to set addresses. When the address switches were set, the bits to be programmed to '1' (I think, but maybe to 0) were, one at a time, connected to ground through momentary switches. This served to program them. Bipolar parts were always a mite fragile in the "verify" process, since some people thought it had to be done with the supply voltage elevated. With PALs, you couldn't use a current source to a negative supply as you might with some PROMs, because of the feedback circuitry. > > > > Old sailing ships used a lot of man-power. While OIL is cheap wind > > > powered modern ships will not be developed. > > > > > Some guys are doing it. The Americas Cup bears witness to that doesn't it? > > Yes, and by analogy some people are still designing with TTL. > Not for serious work, though. TTL's too slow, uses WAY too much power, and requires too much board space. While some advances in ship design have come from the countless millions spent by the yacht-racing community, I doubt anything worthwhile to the electronics industry will come from taking old technology like the techniques once popular with TTL and then using them and the old TTL devices to build on a dozen boards, what one could build in a single FPGA. It could happen, I guess, but nothing new is likely to spring from it as it has in the yach-racing context. > > > One of my friends is building a sailboat in one of his vacant buildings. He's > > been talking about pouring the keel any day now. I want to see that! He says > > he wants to sail it around the world. I hope he makes it. > It is a mental masturbation project, though. There's no hope that it will produce anything other than amusement. He's got enough money, so he doesn't need any more of that, and he's being more or less retired more of the time. Just the same, he's not sure he's going to finish the job, since he found on his last voyage, that he really doesn't like shipboard life that well. > > I think most people agree that sailing ships don't make sense today for > commercial transport. And equally most people agree that TTL rarely makes > sense for commercial production (well, the odd chip maybe, but not great > boards of ths stuff). > Without belaboring that issue too much, I'd say that lots of people think bicycles are no longer practical. I think they're wrong, and I'm not alone. I don't think anybody expects anything but amusement from wiring up TTL, though. > > But just as some enthusiasts like making and operating sailing ships, so > some enthusiasts like wiring up TTL. > True, but those guys don't have much influence on the nomenclature, and they certainly don't do that under the guise of doing useful work. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 02:41:53 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001b01c1e387$d8ca20e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom can do > > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > > > Did not the early PAL's burn on PROM programers? (512x8 fuse prom) > > Not that I've seen. The early MMI PALs (which were about the first ones > to be made) used a strange programming algorithm (IIRC you had to program > the chip in 2 halves, and the functions of pins swapped deneding on which > half you were programming). But at least the algorithm was published so > you could make your own programmer. Most manufacturers these days do not > publish the programming algorithms :-( > The stuff was published, but that didn't mean just anyone would even want to tackle the problem. Today, publishing the programming algorithms would produce a service headache for them, so they don't do it. > > The older PLAs (like the 82S100), had a really nasty programming > algorithm using about 4 different voltages. I don't recomend trying it... > > > I use TTL because 1) I don't have programmer ( got any schematic for one > > I use TTL because (although I have a programmer) it's faster to solder in > a TTL chip than fire up the programmer, type in the equations, compile > them, and blow the chip. I'm also not clever enough to design everything > at once -- I like to design a bit, build and test it, and so on. And so > the smaller/simpler the chips the better. > Programmers for EPROMS, EEPROMS, bipolar PROMS, and Small Programmable Logic Devices (SPLD) are pretty cheap, and, quite common nowadays. The software is free, and today's small devices are reprogrammable so they can be incrementally developed and programmed. Larger devices are programmalbe in-situ, and the software to do that, as well as to develop the logic is also free, at least with some manufacturers, (Altera, Xilinx, Lattice, Atmel, among others) The only real problem I've encountered myself is dealing with the packages. The cheaper packages are all surface mounted, and adapters from those packages to more conventional and easily handled packages are quite expensive (on the order of $1k) Prototyping boards are available, but they're ridiculously costly as well. > > I've also learnt the hard way that if you're designing something that you > want other hobbyists to build, then avoid programmed chips. Almost nobody > has a device programmer, so you end up having to supply programmed chips. > That's bad enough, but you're also expected to replace them free when > they don't work (even if the idiot has tried to run them straight off a > car battery). > If you don't sell 'em anything, you can't be held responsible for what they do with it. If they buy a few parts from somewhere and abuse them, it's not on you. If you specifically tell them they're not allowed to build your circuit, as you retain the rights to it, but choose to share the information contained in it anyway, you certainly can't be held responsible if they build it. Just wait until someone sues you because you used parts in your design that cost more than some other combination of parts, thereby causing their costs to go up. That'll get you to stop that sort of stuff. From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Sun Apr 14 04:11:41 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board Message-ID: Hello, I've begun to prepare a site with a wealth of Option Board information. Hopefully, the end result will be that any person with an Option Board and no docu/software will be able to use it productively. http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/dob/ I would appreciate any comments, criticism, flames, corrections, information, whatever. 8) -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 jabber=nemesis at jabber.icequake.net http://www.icequake.net/~nemesis |= icequake networks, ltd. =|= university of missouri rolla =| |= system administration =|= computer science =| From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 04:17:20 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003901c1e397$b4626a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:51 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Well, considering core memory is radiation hard and non-volatile, I would > > > think it could be considered to be better than semiconductor RAM for some > > > applications. It's also got a much longer lifetime (when was the last > > > time you had a core plane (not the drivers) fail?) > > > > > It really doesn't matter which part of the core memory subsystem fails, does > > it? > > Actually, yes it does. As core is non-volatile, a failure of the drivers > will leave the data in the core substatially intact (a failure of the > core plane wouldn't). > > > BTW, I've never had a memory failure on a PC. I've had numerous ones in > > varous older commercial systems, but never a hard failure in a PC memory > > I've had semicondcutor RAM fail, albeit not DRAM in a PC. 2114s are > particularly bad for this. > I don't think it's the parts, but, rather, the way in which they're used. I have noted that 2114's seem to have a problem. I also wonder at the relative freedom from memory problems in the PC environment. I did occasionally have memory problems back in the CP/M days, mostly due to poorly timed DRAM circuits. > > > > > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom can > viewing its inputs in terms of the fact that PALs generally have 8 or more outputs, and in view of the fact that those separate outputs may not want to share product terms, there are limitations on the common small PALs. However, if you choose a device comparable to the PROM, they'll do it. > > > > > > > Sorry, but absolute rubbish (well, I'll qualifiy that. Given a large > > > enough OR matrix, it's possible, but all real PALs have a very restricted > > > OR matrix). > > > > > Nevertheless, while they have a fixed OR matrix, they have a very flexibly > > programmable AND array, which allows you to express any logic function of the > > number of inputs you have in SOP form. Keep in mind that you can use multiple > > No it doesn't! > > Any real PAL has a limited number of OR terms for each output. (typically > around 8 or so). > What this suggests is that you've chosen the wrong device. You can't do the same things with ANY device. Take a look at the spec for the 16V8 and compare it with the 42VA12. Clearly, they have different size "fuse" arrays, and, if you want to program the device such that it produces functions of a size that consumes the entire "fuse" array, then you'll end up with a single output, but you can implement that function. With the 42VA12 you have 64 product terms, each of which can have any combination of the 42 inputs. On the 16V8 you have less flexibility. MANY functions will fit in a small device like the 16V8. It has a relatively small fuse array, in general, smaller than what's in a PROM, though it's larger than 32x8. > > So I take my function. I write it in SOP notation. I combine terms that > differ by one containing a particular variable and the other containing > its inverse when all other variables are the same (like > A.B/.C.D/.E + A.B/.C/.D/.E -> A.B/.D/.E). > You can let the software deal with optimizing that process, and in assigning the polarity of your outputs so the fewest product terms are used. This one is a single product (OR) term. > > I then end up with more than 8 (or however many OR terms I've got) terms > ORed together in my equation. I can't minimise any more. And I can't put > it into the PAL. > ALL that tells you is that you've picked too small a device, or one with the wrong architecture. All PLD's don't have to be small ones, just like ROMs. > > I've not worked out what the maximum number of terms I might need for > any input function is, but I'll bet that when I do, you need as many > bits to specify them as you have in an 2^n bit PROM. > You do have to choose the right device, but, in general, you have lots of inputs, of which you can use any combination of AND's, and the number of OR's that the device architecture provides. Some parts, e.g. 20X10, 20RA10, etc, have relatively few product terms, though they can use all the inputs in various combinations in the AND array. Part of choosing the right device, is figuring out whether you're after a function easily expressed as SOP, or whether you really do want a PROM. There are also devices that have both the AND array and the OR array programmable. That allows sharing of product terms, among other things. A lot depends on what your objective is. If you want to produce the logic required for block 2G on that diagram I wrote about a day or two back, you may want to approach the problem differently than if you want to include several blocks and use a larger device. The difference between the result that you get with a PROM versus a PAL, is that the PAL allows you to put the registers in the device along with the logic, and to use the resulting outputs as inputs, which lends itself nicely to generating clean Moore and Mealy machines. If you think you want to secure your design, you certainly can do more to that end with a PAL than with a ROM and external registers and logic. The timing benefits from keeping the devices self-contained, as does power and PCB routing. Layout errors are also easily fixed with PALs, while that's not as easy on discrete logic. > > Otherwise, I'll propose the following lossless compression system : > > 1) Read <2^n> bits from a file. > > 2) Regard them as the 'truth table' for an arbitrary input, one output, > logic function (this step is OK) > > 3) Turn that function into the equivalent 'PAL fuse map' (which you claim is > always possible, moreover, it takes fewer (than 2^n) bits to specify this). > > 4) I now write out this smaller number of bits to the output file. > > If step (3) is always possible, then we have a compression system that > reduces the size of all possible input files. Which is clearly impossible! > > > > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > > > And that should tell you something is 'wrong'. > Not exactly, since the PROM requires you to represent all the states of the inputs, while the PAL allows you to use only the ones that are relevant. > > > > > Let's consider a single-output combinatorial function of inputs. > > > There are 2^(2^n) possible functions (including ones that ignore some or > > > all of the inputs). > > > > > You're running down an unimplementable path again, Tony. You can't implement > > all those functions in a comparable ROM either. For starters, though, let's > > Of course I can!. I can implement any of the 2^(2^n) functions in a 2^n > bit ROM (which has n address inputs). There are _exactly_ that many > possible programming patterns of the PROM, each one corresponding to a > different function. > SO you use a PAL with a fuse array of comparable size. > > > postulate that you've got, at most, 22 inputs. (a 24-pin device with Vcc and > > Gnd). Each pin you use as output, of course, has feedback, but it's not an > > input. Nevertheless, that means 44 signals to the AND array, since each input > > is in true and complement form. > > Quite obviously, you can AND whatever combination of these that you want, and > > use up to 8 of these sum terms in, say, a 22V10. Since a ROM doesn't share > > inputs and outputs, you'd be dealing with a larger package, but, since you've > > only got 8, 10, or maybe even 12 outputs, there's a limit on what you can > > derive from that number of inputs. PALs have the same technological > > restrictions as PROMs, so whatever size of fuse array you can generate in a > > PAL, you can also have in a PROM, and vice-versa. Now, I won't say it's > > All you seem to be saying here is that both PROMs and PALs have finite > size. Which is not something I disagree with. > > What I am saying is that (say) a 16 input _PROM_ takes 65536 bits to > program it. A 16 input PAL (like a 16C2) takes many fewer bits. So there > have to be logic functions you can fit into the PROM that you can't fit > into the PAL. > Not all PALs are alike. The 16C2 is a decoder. It tells you when the desired address appears at the inputs. A 26CV12 is quite a different device. > > Of course you can make a PAL (defined as a programable AND array followed > by a fixed OR array) that can implement any cominatiorial function of the > inputs just like a PROM can. This is related to the fact that you can > write any function in SOP or POS notation I think. But the resulting PAL > will be as complex as the PROM. > Nobody said the device is simpler than the PROM. The job of concocting the PAL is made easier by the rather well-developed tools that we have, though. Generating the fuse map for the PROM when you have 22 inputs is a big job and requires a big PROM, even though the functions are mostly simple. consider what happens if you have 16 inputs, 6 outputs, of which four are inverters with tristate outputs and the other two are strobes decoded from the addresses, with totem pole outputs that remain enabled. That would be a problem in a PROM in any event. > > The reason PALs are useful is that many functions used in the real world > will fit into them. But not all.... > > > > This is easy to see. Think of writing out the complete truth table of the > > > function. It's got 2^n lines (one for each of the possible combinations > > > of the inputs). In each line we have to pick the output bit, either 0 or 1. > > > > > Truth tables are an unwieldy way to create/analyze PALs, though they were once > > Oh for %detiy's sake. Have you actually read what I have written? > > I am not proposing that you use truth tables to actually design the data > for a PAL. > > What I am saying is that every combinatorial function has a truth table. > And that it's possible to count how many possible combinatorial functions > there are by consdiering these truth tables. > It seemed that you were headed there because you have to do that to create the equivalent PROM, and folks used to generate truth tables and reduce them. > > Let me give you an example. > > Suppose, for some reason, you want to know how many 2-input (let's call > the inputs A and B) logic functions you could make (including things like > 'always 0',. 'always 1', 'A', 'NOT(B)', etc). > > You could start by saying 'Well, there's 'A', and 'NOT(A)', and 'B', and > 'NOT(B)', and '0'. and '1', amd 'A AND B', and 'A OR B' and 'A XOR B' and > 'NOT(A) XOR NOT(B)' -- Ooops, we've just counted that one twice, as it's > the same as 'A XOR B'' and so on. And you'll either count one function > twice or you'll miss one. > > Or you could do it more systematically by saying ' Every 2 input > combinatorial function has a 4 line truth table (the 4 lines > corresponding to inputs (A=0, B=0), (A=1, B=0), (A=0, B=1), (A=1, B=1)). > For each line in the truth table I have to pick the state of the output, > either 0 or 1, So I have 2 choices for each line, so 2^4 choices for the > entire table. Aha, there must be 16 ways to fill in the truth table, so > 16 possible 2 input functions'. > > And that's _all_ I am saying here. I want to count the total number of > input functions (so as to see if there are enough different ways to > program a PAL to cover all of them), so I consider a truth table. I am > not suggesting using the truth table as a way to actually design the PAL. > > > the possible fuse arrays are about the same size, regardless of whether you > > The 'fuse array' _is_ the programmable section. And the PALs I've used > have needed many fewer bits to program them than PROMs with the same > number of inputs (normlly called 'address lines' :-)) > > > have a PROM or a PAL. How they're implemented differs somewhat, in how > > they're applied, however. Because the OR array is fixed, fewer bits are > > programmable, but then, if you use a PROM to generate random logic, there are > > lots of redundant bits. The PAL, with its fixed OR array, won't let you > > No there are not. There may be many redundant bits for many useful > functions (this is _why_ PALs are actually useful -- because many > real-world functions will fit into them), but that can't be the case in > general. > > > generate a lookup table. If you need a lookup table, you'd use a PROM. OTOH, > > A lookup table is just a combinatorial function. > > > if you need a decoder, that's straightforward enough using a single output. > > Most decoders have the property that if you write the equation in SOP > form, it's got only a few product terms (maybe only one). And that will > fit into a PAL. sure. > > > > > > > So I say again. Consider the 16C2. It has 16 inputs and 1 output (yes, 2 > > > output _pins_, but one is always the inverse of the other). Does it have > > > 65536 programming fuses? No! It has many fewer. Therefore there are 16 > > > input functions you can't fit into a 16C2. > > > > > Well, you've picked a long-obsolete device type, Tony, but if you consider > > what it was intended to do, I think you'll find it can detect and signal any > > unique combination of the 16 inputs. The 'C' means it's a comparator. Have > > Actaully, the 'C' means Complimentary, refering to the fact that the 2 > outputs are always inverses of each other. > I can't find a databook old enough to have this part in it, but I do remember seeing them once upon a time. Their purpose was to generate a programmable decoder with a minimum of resources, apparently for cost reasons. The true/compliment output was probably more to cover the potential requirement for one polarity or the other, by giving you both, but that doesn't matter. WHy not look at a more conventional sort of device that's survived, like the 16L8. It has seven product terms plus one for the output enable. That means you can take all the inputs and create any combination of those in a single product term. If the seven PT's aren't enough, you have to sacrifice the output associated with one group of seven and pass it back as feedback into the product term array via feedback, which one of the macrocells hasn't got. That's the one, probably, to which you'd pass the feedback from another macrocell. If you need a really complex function it can generate it, but you have to use enough resources to do that. In this case, you have 64*32 = 2048 fuses. 1/8 of those are allocated to output enable product terms, so you have only 1792 fuses with which to combine the 16 inputs into 8 outputs. This gives you a flexibility you don't have with a ROM, i.e. enabling only one or more of the outputs independently. Further, if you leave out the feedback, which a PROM won't allow you to have unless you feed the outputs back to address lines, which wil reduce the number of independent inputs you have, you essentially have only 8 inputs and 8 outputs. That's 256 bytes, and that's 2048 bits, which is more or less what the 16L8 has. I'd submit that you can, with a similarly sized PAL create pretty much the same range of combinatorial logic that a ROM with the same number of storage bits has. Remember, if you need ANY function of the 16 inputs, then you need a 64Kbit fuse array for each bit of output. There are PLD's that are that large, but they're not commonly used because the requirement for ANY combination of the 16 inputs is seldom encountered. There are such things, however. > > And I am not disputing you can program a PAL to implement any function > consisting of one product term (which is what 'any unique combination of > the inputs' would be. > You seem to be ignoring the fact that you can use as many of the available product terms as you like, however. That's why 16V8's, for example, are so popular. > > > > The parts _you_ choose to design with [PALs, GALs, PLDs] > > > The parts others choose to design with (for whatever reasons) [Just about > > > anything] > > > The parts that have been used in the past [Ditto] > > > Parts that could theoretically be created [e.g. a PAL with a large enough OR > > > matrix to implement any function, and which will have as many programming > > > bits as a PROM] > > > Theoretical concepts [PDAs, Turing machines] > > > > > Yes, except that the last two are really not germane to the topic which was > > semantic. I don't disagree with you except in the sense that you continue to > > Actually, the 4th item on the list _could_ be a real world part (there is > nothing to stop you making a PAL-like structure with enough inputs to the > fixed OR matrix), and it's what you're claiming exists if you believe > that there are PALs that can implement any combinatorial function of > their inputs. > > Go back to that 22V10 for a moment. I don't have the data sheet in front > of me, so I can't remember exactly how you can use the pins as inputs and > outputs, but I think I can program it so I have 1 output, 21 inputs, and > don't use any form of 'registers' or feedback terms. OK, I am not using > all the PAL in that case. > Just to refresh your memory, the 22 is the maximum number of inputs, the V indicates the "versatile" macrocell, and the 10 is for the number of outputs. A 16R4 has 16 possible inputs to the AND array, which are available both true and compliment, and there are 8 outputs, of which 4 are registered. You get the idea. In the case you cite, you are discarding most of the resources associated with control, i.e. product terms for output enable, global reset, set, etc. aside from the ones associate with the one macrocell you do use, and if you discard the feedback terms, you have only 12 external inputs. You presumably would choose the oututs that have 16 product terms, though. It wouldn't be advisable to do exactly what you suggest, simply because you can leave the outputs you don't use disabled and use their associated pins for input via the feedback paths. If you do that, you do have 21 inputs. > > Now you claim I can use that to make any 21 input, one output, function. > I believe it takes fewer than 2 megabits to program it, in which case I > claim that your claim is plain wrong. Because there really are 2^(2^21) > possible 21-input combinatioral functions. > There's a wide range of input combinations that you can implement in a 22V10, but none with more than 16 product terms. If you need more complex functions, there are some more complex devices you'd have to look at. Keep in mind, however, that if you want to cover the entire range associated with 21 bits of input, which is a 2 M word x 1 array, you'd need a pretty big PROM also. If you get a part big enough to hold that amount of memory, you wont\'t fit it on a 24-pin skinnydip leadframe owing to the die size. Now you're into a 44-pin or so package. If you specify the logic equation you want to implement, I suspect we can find a PLD large enough to implement it. What's made the PALs popular is that most of the logic that one normally wants in a single device is quite limited by comparison with what you've been addressing. True, it's conceivable that one might, at least once in one's carreer, need a terribly complex logic function that needs nearly a couple of dozen product terms. It doesn't come up often, which is why the devices that support such functions aren't so prominent. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 04:38:38 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB8FA20.291AF889@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003a01c1e398$28354b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, they're getting ridiculous. but $500 isn't so bad when you consider that it will program EPROMS, EEPROMS, varous MCU's, it will test logic, it will test RAMs ... If you buy a moderately cheap CPLD, e.g. the XILINX 95108, in a PLCC84, it costs about $20-30 U.S. at DigiKey. Combine that with a socket, ($4 tops) and a few wirewrap socket pins, ($.10 each) that's another $8.40. Now find a cheap wirewrap board to which you can solder ... and then use the free software and build the ~$5 ISP adapter. For the same money, you can use a Xilinx SPARTAN-series FPGA which you can also program using the ISP programmer, though you'll have to do it every time. Then you can design pretty much whatever small computer (only because of pin-count limitations) you want. These devices even allow you to put in some RAM. I've heard it said, "Where there's a will, there's mourners." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:40 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Everyone knows you can get 'universal' device programmers that program > > PROMs, PALs, GALs, EPROMs, microcontrollers, and so on. The original > > question was clearly asking whether early PALs used a similar programming > > algorithm to the bipolar PROMs of the same time period. I don't think > > they ever did. > > But most companies think $500 is low cost for a programer. > > > But just as some enthusiasts like making and operating sailing ships, so > > some enthusiasts like wiring up TTL. > > I like designing computers. I don't like wireing TTL. $125 US is the > lowest cost CPLD developent kit I have seen. A $15 chip replaces 15 TTL > at $.50 each -- $7.50 .I guess the savings must be in sockets and PCB > board size. > > -tony > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 04:39:18 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003d01c1e398$4023b2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:18 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > That's a lookup table, however, and not a multiplier, and terribly > > > > > > Of course it's a multiplier. You give it 2 numbers, it gives you back the > > > product. I'd love to see a definition of 'multiplier' that excludes > > > look-up tables. > > > > > There surely isn't one, but wait a minute, now ... can you have it both ways? > > You were the one who claimed it wasn't a multiplier... > > And yes, I think you can have it both ways. A 'multiplier' is a device > (in this case a digital electronic circuit) that takes in 2 numbers (in > this case expressed in binary notation) and returns the product. A > 'lookup table' is a way of implementing combinatorial functions (I am > not going to attempt to define it, because I am sure you know what it > means). There is no reason at all that a circuit based on a lookup table > can't be a multiplier. > > ['284 and '285] > > > Now that I've looked the sheets over, I see that the parts are no more > > expandable than a PROM would be, but the parts are only 16-pin types. That's > > pretty small. The PROMs (256x8) that I've got are in 20-pin packages. (I > > They're 256*4 PROMs, which is why there are 2 of them... > > Look at the pinout as well. The 2 active low enables (which are _never_ > used in the multiplier circuit) are one oddity. So is the fact it has > open-collector outputs. > > The reason for both, of course, is that these devices are really > programmed 256*4 PROMs (it's one of the standard ones, but I don't feel > like getting the databook out now to look up which one). > > > They don't show the logic diagrams (you've forced me to look) of the '284 and > > '285 but it appears that a 256x8 PROM would do the job, so I suspect you're > > right. However, the PROM would have twice the number of bits really necessary > > since 3*5 = 5*3, and I'm convinced the TTL parts have gotten around that bit > > Well, OK, suppose we elimiate some of the entries in the lookup table > (it's less than half, because the terms 'on the diagonal' -- the perfect > squares like 2*2 and 5*5 -- have to appear in the table). We then have to > add some external logic to swap over the input numbers so that the > smaller one is on one set of inputs always. That sounds as much work as > just having the complete table in the first place. > > > One thing you've got to consider yet, however, is combinatorial loops. PROMs > > don't allow for internal feedback, so you can't generate a combinatorial-loop > > As soon as you allow feedback, the circuit is no longer combinatorial. > It's sequential. The definition of a combinatorial circuit is that the > output depends on the inputs _now_ only, and not on some internal 'state'. > > Yes, you can make a sequential circuit from combinatorial parts, but > none-the-less the result is truely a sequential circuit. The simplest > example I can think of is the SR flip-flop made from 2 NAND gates. > > > latch with the prom without reducing the number of external inputs. BTW, > > you've limited the selection of PALs to combinatorial parts, while the > > That's because I was comparing PALs to PROMs (the latter being strictly > combinatorial) > > > registered PALs are the ones normally used in state machines. How do PROMs > > True, but irrelevant IMHO. > > The whole point of a state machine in electronics is that it allows you > to represent a large class of sequential circuits as a row of D-type > flip-flops (the _only_ sequential part of the cirucit) and a block of > combinatorial logic (the 'feedback logic'). Then you can use all the > methods you know for designing and simplifying combinatorial logic to > handle state machines (and thus a large group of sequential circuits) as > well. > > A Registered PAL is the standard PAL array with D-types on the outputs, > the outputs of which are fed back as inputs to the logic array. Yes, it's > ideal for making state machines, but it's not the only way to make state > machines. You could equally well take a non-registered PAL or a normal > PROM, connect the outputs to the D inputs on some flip-flops (say a '574, > since you like real, physical, devices), and link the Q inputs of that > back to inputs on the PROM or PAL. > > Of course nobody would do it that way if they had registered PALs > available, but that's not the point at all. You _could_ do it that way, > you'd still be making the same state machine. > > > > work for you there? There are registered PROMs that will hold the present > > state for you, but how does that work for you toward your FSM? The PAL allows > > you to specify the transitions explicitly from this state to the next based on > > inputs, and outputs based on this state. The latter two don't have to be the > > OK, I'll take a PROM (say 256 * 4). I'll link the outputs to 4 D type > flip-flops (a '175, OK). I'll link the outputs of those flip-flops to 4 > of the address inputs (say A4..A7) of the PROM. And connect my external > inputs to the other 4 address lines. > > That's a state machine. Each address in the PROM corresponds to one > combination of current state (the 4 bits from the flip-flops) and the > external inputs. I program into each address the number of the state I > want to go into based on the current state and the inputs. Nothing more > complex than that. > You might want to consider a second PROM to generate outuputs to cover the cases wherein the state bits don't correspond with the desired outputs ... Clearly, however, you must see the advantages of being able to combine that into a single device. The function you've described certainly will fit into a small PAL without any external interconnection. So you've got 4 state registers and 4 external inputs. That would probably fit a 16V8, and leave you 4 more bits which you might choose to use for output. From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sun Apr 14 04:46:49 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix References: Message-ID: <3CB95009.DC85685A@adelphia.net> ahh yes... true... NetBSD it is then... Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > anyone know or try Ultrix 4.2 on the 4000/300? > > Will not run. AFAIK the MV3800/3900 / KA655 was the last QBus machine > > that could run Ultrix. You have to go with VMS or NetBSD. > > Especially since that machine isn't Qbus. It's main bus is that 4300+ > PELE stuff. > > Peace... Sridhar -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Apr 14 06:09:05 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-I VMS support? In-Reply-To: <15545.6888.270414.776212@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020414205455.0230d988@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 02:00 AM 14/04/2002 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Can anyone tell me the latest release of VMS that will run on a >MicroVAX-I? The last one I ran had 4.5 on it, but I'd like to run at >least 4.7 or 5.x. I seem to recall that 6.2 was the last version to support the uVAX-I. You would need to check the 6.2 SPD. The current OpenVMS SPD can be found on-line http://www.compaq.com/info/sp2501/sp2501pf.pdf and it confirms that 6.2 was the last version that supported uVAX-I. Now, just because 7.x doesn't support it, doesn't mean it may not work, there are lots of things that aren't supported that work. Typically this is due to OpenVMS engineering not having the resources (time or hardware) to do the verification. However, in the case of the uVAX-I I'd worry that 7.x doesn't work at all. The only way to find out is to try to install 7.x and see how far you get.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Apr 14 05:13:40 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200204141013.g3EADe804945@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 13 Apr, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > Especially since that machine isn't Qbus. It's main bus is that 4300+ > PELE stuff. True and false. ;-) The machine has a QBus and therefore the CPU card has a QBus interface. So it is a QBus VAX by my definition. The CPU board is no QBus board like the KA630..KA660. It has a special backplane connector and the (passive) backplane distributes the signals from this connector to the QBus slots, the memory slots and DSSI drive bays. So this is no QBus VAX by your definition. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 14 07:35:50 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Canon FV-540 Still Video Floppy Disk Drive on eBay Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020414073301.0332f348@pc> I put this circa-1991 item on eBay, it looks like it's going to end at less than $10. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1345799733 I'm auctioning a batch of other computer-related items, but this was the most classic or obscure. - John Canon FV-540 Still Video Floppy Disk Drive This was used with the Canon RC-540 Still Video Camera, an early digital camera dating back to 1991. It was part of Canon's Professional Still Video Imaging Kit, a $4900 package. It stored images to a 2" inch floppy disk, and you'd move those floppies to this SCSI device to view thumbnails and retrieve images using Canon's SV-Scan software or other packages. Each could store up to 50 images at low resolution (72 DPI) or up to 32 images at high resolution (150 DPI). I will include a Zip file (Wfvscan2.zip) containing Windows FV-Scan software, which requires a Corel or Trantor SCSI card interface. I haven't tested it. I think there was Mac and even Next software available for this unit. Perhaps you can find it on the net. The box has S-Video in, and composite in and out, and two SCSI ports. From at258 at osfn.org Sun Apr 14 08:20:31 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: RA90 parts In-Reply-To: <3CB90620.4030400@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Yes, it chased me down a ramp and then flopped over. I think it doesn't like me. We picked up a VaxServer 4000/300 and a MV 3400 on Friday. I think we have 3 or 4 more DEC donations waiting for us. On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > As a result of an unloading infelicity, we could use about 7 RA90 plastic > > front panels. Would anyone have any floating about? > > > Oh, oh, I can imagine what rack that was :-) PS: Merle, I have been > having some trouble with my RA90s and it's getting worse with some. > So, may be you want to watch out for whole replacements. Dave McGuire > has some in the DC/MA area. > > regards > -Gunther > > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 14 08:25:06 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX-I VMS support? Message-ID: <008d01c1e3b8$d15b1720$4bf09a8d@ajp166> 4.7 should be doable, 5.x not likely. The biggest problem with MV-1s I've seen is it's hard to get enough memory in them. I'd say for 5.0 4mb is really running too close to the bone. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 2:16 AM Subject: MicroVAX-I VMS support? > > Can anyone tell me the latest release of VMS that will run on a >MicroVAX-I? The last one I ran had 4.5 on it, but I'd like to run at >least 4.7 or 5.x. > > Thanks, > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" >St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 10:00:50 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB8FA20.291AF889@jetnet.ab.ca> <003a01c1e398$28354b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CB999A2.E5861A12@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > If you buy a moderately cheap CPLD, e.g. the XILINX 95108, in a PLCC84, it > costs about $20-30 U.S. at DigiKey. Combine that with a socket, ($4 tops) and > a few wirewrap socket pins, ($.10 each) that's another $8.40. Now find a > cheap wirewrap board to which you can solder ... and then use the free > software and build the ~$5 ISP adapter. Has anybody done that? > For the same money, you can use a > Xilinx SPARTAN-series FPGA which you can also program using the ISP > programmer, though you'll have to do it every time. Then you can design > pretty much whatever small computer (only because of pin-count limitations) > you want. These devices even allow you to put in some RAM. > I have a nice FPGA prototype kit, (altera) but I am having problems getting A PROM for it. I may go to using smaller chips like the XC-9572 (72 macro cells) ? $12 canadian. They don't make wire wrap PLCC sockets (or not in DigiKey) so I will end up with making a PCB. I have a new CPU design and expect about 10 CPLD's in total. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 14 10:28:23 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: What's wrong with the classiccmp list server? References: <3CB908D2.8030902@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <004c01c1e3c9$04c16780$48000240@default> I have had the same problem too on/off not always? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 11:42 PM Subject: What's wrong with the classiccmp list server? > since about 1 or 2 weeks classiccmp seems to silently discard my > postings without any error. What's wrong? Am I the only one who > has that problem? > > thanks > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 14 11:16:11 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <00a701c1e3d0$9a630d50$4bf09a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >> If you buy a moderately cheap CPLD, e.g. the XILINX 95108, in a PLCC84, it >> costs about $20-30 U.S. at DigiKey. Combine that with a socket, ($4 tops) and >> a few wirewrap socket pins, ($.10 each) that's another $8.40. Now find a >> cheap wirewrap board to which you can solder ... and then use the free >> software and build the ~$5 ISP adapter. >Has anybody done that? I've done this with other similar packaged devices and it flies. >I have a nice FPGA prototype kit, (altera) but I am having problems >getting A PROM for it. I may go to using smaller chips like the XC-9572 >(72 macro cells) ? $12 canadian. They don't make wire wrap PLCC sockets What prom are you looking for? I'm still playing with some 2064s and 3030s and 3050s, yes they are old but the tools were free, the parts cheap and easy to load up with a 2816/64. Allison From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Apr 14 11:46:15 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > > I'm wondering if this card is capable of using both outputs at once; > > i.e. base 2 to my Amiga Etherrnet and base T to a cable modem or hub. > > If it is an exclusive OR situation, I guess I'll have to get another NIC > > for another input/output. > > I'm not aquainted with any PC NICs that allow use of both > connections. There _are_ quite a few multiport NICs, but every one > I've seen had 2 or 4 identical connections. Usually 10bT. This reminds me of an unusual board I picked up years ago... Somewhere, I have an ISA board with 4 10Base-2 interfaces. It was made by Kodiak Technologies (long since out of business). It uses 4 Seeq 8005 chips, and appears to have headers for 4 AUI ports too. I never could find documentation on the board, and it seems to use a nonstandard scheme for I/O access. Anyone ever heard of these or have any documentation or manufacturer provided drivers for them? -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 12:05:44 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <00a701c1e3d0$9a630d50$4bf09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3CB9B6E8.C62F78EE@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > I've done this with other similar packaged devices and it flies. Got any more details? > What prom are you looking for? > > I'm still playing with some 2064s and 3030s and 3050s, yes they are old > but > the tools were free, the parts cheap and easy to load up with a 2816/64. > > Allison I am useing Altera. Altera EPC1141LC20,EPC1LC20 or ATMEL AT17C512A,AT17C010A. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 14 12:20:16 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: updated hardware status Message-ID: <007201c1e3d8$a5c70810$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So far, cash ($135.00) has been donated as well as the following hardware... 256mb RAM 32X IDE CDROM 1.44mb floppy drive Also, due to many requests, I upgraded my paypal account to accept credit card donations as well. All the support is most appreciated! Jay West From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 14 12:31:49 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 Message-ID: <3CB9BD05.4090207@dragonsweb.org> While tracking down information on some obscure TI digital logic, I came across a picture of this terminal on the Smithsonian website: http://smithsonianchips.si.edu/texas/t_434.htm There's also a picture of the prototype, which appears to be a heavily modified TI-99/4 (no A): http://smithsonianchips.si.edu/texas/t_433.htm Anyone have one of these, or know any more about them? jbdigriz From wonko at arkham.ws Sun Apr 14 12:27:26 2002 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: who needed 11/750 power supply info? Message-ID: <20020414132726.I9601@wintermute.arkham.ws> i was poking around the one box of docs that came with my PDP-11/34a that i picked up a couple months ago, when i found the 11/750 Field Maint. Print Set as well as the KA750 Field Maint. Print Set. i mentioned this to Dave McGuire who said someone on this list was looking for power supply info for the 11/750. if you still need help, contact me off-list and i'll give you whatever help i can. cheers, -brian -- "Today, put your best foot forward. If you're not sure which of your feet is your best foot, cut one off. Then it doesn't matter." - www.lowbrow.com - From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 14 12:35:10 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <00b401c1e3db$cc1bee10$4bf09a8d@ajp166> Engish not vendoreze... dont know those parts at all. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing >ajp166 wrote: > >> I've done this with other similar packaged devices and it flies. >Got any more details? >> What prom are you looking for? >> >> I'm still playing with some 2064s and 3030s and 3050s, yes they are old >> but >> the tools were free, the parts cheap and easy to load up with a 2816/64. >> >> Allison >I am useing Altera. Altera EPC1141LC20,EPC1LC20 or ATMEL >AT17C512A,AT17C010A. > >-- >Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 12:44:16 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: HP IPC (update) In-Reply-To: <200204132249.SAA19207@king.mcs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Apr 13, 2 06:49:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/0d2cd3e9/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 14 05:30:36 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 In-Reply-To: <3CB9BD05.4090207@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > While tracking down information on some obscure TI digital logic, I came > across a picture of this terminal on the Smithsonian website: > > http://smithsonianchips.si.edu/texas/t_434.htm Very cool. It looks like it has a carthridge software slot on the righthand side. Being this was made in 1981 (according to the page), and based on the way TI did things, I would not be surprised if there was a TI-99/4a at the core of this machine, with the carthridge slot used to throw different applications onto the machine for various data communications scenarios. I've never seen this before. It would be nice to find one. > There's also a picture of the prototype, which appears to be a heavily > modified TI-99/4 (no A): > > http://smithsonianchips.si.edu/texas/t_433.htm Intriguing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From philip at fliptronics.com Sun Apr 14 13:49:14 2002 From: philip at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: [fpga-cpu] Re: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <3CB999A2.E5861A12@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3CB8FA20.291AF889@jetnet.ab.ca> <003a01c1e398$28354b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB999A2.E5861A12@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:00:50 -0600, Ben wrote: >I have a nice FPGA prototype kit, (altera) but I am having problems >getting A PROM for it. I may go to using smaller chips like the XC-9572 >(72 macro cells) ? $12 canadian. They don't make wire wrap PLCC sockets >(or not in DigiKey) so I will end up with making a PCB. I have a new CPU >design and expect about 10 CPLD's in total. Before you give up on wire-wrap, PLCC sockets (through hole, not surface mount sockets) have their pins on a .1 inch grid. I have often used strips of N x 1 wirewrap socket pins, cut to length, and made up ww sockets to match the underside of a PLCC socket. Such as these: http://www.mill-max.com/images/products/PDF/049.pdf ================= Philip Freidin philip@fliptronics.com From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Apr 14 14:02:08 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: RA90 parts References: Message-ID: <3CB9D230.2090807@aurora.regenstrief.org> Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Yes, it chased me down a ramp and then flopped over. I think it doesn't > like me. We picked up a VaxServer 4000/300 and a MV 3400 on Friday. I > think we have 3 or 4 more DEC donations waiting for us. Oh my goodness. That was one big bump! Didn't the cabinet explode or leave a huge pot-hole in the driveway? -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Apr 14 14:19:31 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: Need a supplier for 80-pin IDC ribbon plug ... Message-ID: <3CB9D643.7080207@aurora.regenstrief.org> [now that classiccmp posts my messages again, let me try again. I am really desperate about this one.] Hi, I just received two fine boards that need to be connected to one other board each, through a very short cable, which is a 80 position ribbon with 0.025 in pitch (the small pitch) and an IDC female connector on each end with 2 row of 40 holes at a distance of 0.05 in between the holes. Turns out that most suppliers stock maxes out at 64 pin IDC sockets, and the rest is special order with crazy prices $3 to $22 and wild minimum orders of 23 to 100. So, who knows of a place that serves small customers? (I need 10 of these connectors maximal and maximum 1 ft of the matching cable.) Web sites phone numbers anything. May be it might be easier to find the original DEC hardware, I'm talking about the over-the-top connector of a DEC KA64A to the FV64A, anyone having the FV64A installation guide that tells us the part number of that cable? Thanks very much, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 14 14:24:18 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:23 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 References: Message-ID: <3CB9D762.50609@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Very cool. It looks like it has a carthridge software slot on the > righthand side. > > Being this was made in 1981 (according to the page), and based on the way > TI did things, I would not be surprised if there was a TI-99/4a at the > core of this machine, with the carthridge slot used to throw different > applications onto the machine for various data communications scenarios. > I'm guessing this was a way to sell /4 mainboards still in inventory after the /4A was introduced, among other things. The mainboard might have been redesigned specifically for the Insight, though, which is one of the things I'd like to find out. > I've never seen this before. It would be nice to find one. > Yup. From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Sun Apr 14 14:31:58 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights Message-ID: I'm working on a project that I'd like to have an 'old-looking' computer running a device as a sort of 'process controller'. I really want it to have a 'blinkenlights' operators panel on it. As I don't have a commercially made computer with a suitable frontpanel on it, I was thinking about taking something I have and 'modifying' it to be suitable. So far, I have a couple options I am considering: 1) Customed designed mini using TTL (perhaps PALs so it doesn't take months to assemble, although I will probably 'bother' to make a PCB for it. 2) 8-bit ISA interface card and a 'suitably old' PC - Maybe an IBM 5150, maybe just a 486 - if I do a 5150, i'll be writing a bunch of assembly and avoiding using an OS. If I choose a 386/486 (I have spare 486s) I can work on a driver for it in Linux so I have some sort of usable OS available. 3) Apple //e card. I've got no idea how easy this will be to do - I don't really know 6502/apple assembly at all, nor the bus. #2 is the least amount of work for me, #3 some more work, #1 the most work. Has anyone ever create an 'operators panel' for a PC or Apple 2? I've got some ideas on how to do it (will definately require some soft/firmware to make it work nicely). Is anyone else interested in something similar? I was thinking about making something like a IMSAI front panel - using the system's NMI to trigger the software to 'activate' the panel. Any thoughts or suggestions? -- Pat From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 15:47:30 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <3CB9EAE2.380BC9DE@jetnet.ab.ca> pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > I'm working on a project that I'd like to have an 'old-looking' computer > running a device as a sort of 'process controller'. I really want it to > have a 'blinkenlights' operators panel on it. As I don't have a > commercially made computer with a suitable frontpanel on it, I was > thinking about taking something I have and 'modifying' it to be suitable. How about a Software Emulator with a front panel hardware module driven off the printer port? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 13:27:23 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001501c1e385$fe7ac9e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 01:28:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/1ef3bd43/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 13:36:45 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001b01c1e387$d8ca20e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 01:41:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4046 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/d7497b60/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 13:13:04 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020413204853.033fc578@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 13, 2 08:50:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/6d4d1909/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 15:46:20 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <003901c1e397$b4626a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 03:17:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 15010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/1fd9c3ef/attachment.ksh From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 14 15:56:33 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Web-Tronics.com (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <20020414205803.SRRA20271.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > Well, googling to see what a 'LS170 was, I found this place that has them, > along with a 'LS181! Google? Hmm, no offence or anything, but I find an ECG book to be a lot handier for looking up general specs. > Even at a decent price, too. > > http://www.web-tronics.com/ls181.html Thanks for the pointer. I must wonder, though, if there's *something wrong with this picture* -- Web-Tronics lists the 'LS170 at 50 cents, MCM has it at $4. I know MCM is high, but this seems like too much of a spread. Glen 0/0 From hartman at grzzr.com Sun Apr 14 17:04:58 2002 From: hartman at grzzr.com (Laughling Nevada) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Laughlin Nevada for $19.95 ADV. Message-ID: <200204142105.g3EL53e34227@ns2.ezwind.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/c5233629/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 16:06:39 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from "pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com" at Apr 14, 2 02:31:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/c12866e6/attachment.ksh From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 14 16:38:28 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Laughlin Nevada for $19.95 ADV. References: <200204142105.g3EL53e34227@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00cc01c1e3fc$b7c94810$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Regarding.... > Laughlin Weekday Special! > > $19.95 > > Sunday-Thursday Only > Double Occupancy > We have the best deals of Weekends Too! > Now through May 23rd, 2002 This is the 2nd or 3rd time that the list address has been included in a "double opt in" database. I don't trust spammers in the least when they say an address was specifically added by a users request, but.. this is starting to look fishy. If in fact some list member is subscribing the list to various spam places, please cease and desist. I always unsubscribe the list address asap... but I'm requesting info from the last place as to what email address originally requested the subscription. If it is someone on the list... needless to say - they're toast. Jay From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Apr 14 16:51:08 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CB9B37C.6988.2DBC614@localhost> I also have an unknown MCA board by Pure Data copyrighted 1987 with 4 BNC connectors. I had thought it might be an arcnet (which IIRC PD was heavily involved with) board. Some sort of hub on a card. Lawrence > This reminds me of an unusual board I picked up years ago... > > Somewhere, I have an ISA board with 4 10Base-2 interfaces. It was made by > Kodiak Technologies (long since out of business). It uses 4 Seeq 8005 > chips, and appears to have headers for 4 AUI ports too. I never could find > documentation on the board, and it seems to use a nonstandard scheme for > I/O access. Anyone ever heard of these or have any documentation or > manufacturer provided drivers for them? > > -Toth > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Apr 14 17:36:08 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <3CB9B37C.6988.2DBC614@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > This reminds me of an unusual board I picked up years ago... > > > > Somewhere, I have an ISA board with 4 10Base-2 interfaces. It was made by > > Kodiak Technologies (long since out of business). It uses 4 Seeq 8005 > > chips, and appears to have headers for 4 AUI ports too. I never could find > > documentation on the board, and it seems to use a nonstandard scheme for > > I/O access. Anyone ever heard of these or have any documentation or > > manufacturer provided drivers for them? > > I also have an unknown MCA board by Pure Data copyrighted 1987 with 4 > BNC connectors. I had thought it might be an arcnet (which IIRC PD was > heavily involved with) board. Some sort of hub on a card. What kind of chips does it have on it? Usually you can identify a these kinds of boards based on the chips they use. -Toth From barry.appleby at swipnet.se Sun Apr 14 17:42:50 2002 From: barry.appleby at swipnet.se (Barry Appleby) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT 286 Message-ID: <3CBA05EA.17242468@swipnet.se> For Sale Compaq SLT 286 Swedish keyboard In working order - no battery Am looking for good home for this machine as refuse to dump it if somebody has a use for it Best regards Barry Apppleby From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Apr 14 17:47:08 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Laughlin Nevada for $19.95 ADV. In-Reply-To: <00cc01c1e3fc$b7c94810$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Jay West wrote: > This is the 2nd or 3rd time that the list address has been included in > a "double opt in" database. I don't trust spammers in the least when > they say an address was specifically added by a users request, but.. > this is starting to look fishy. If in fact some list member is > subscribing the list to various spam places, please cease and desist. I started getting large numbers of opt-in type spam emails off-list about 3 months ago. The most effective means to stop them seems to be to contact the network and or system administrator where the emails originate from, and not even bother with the supposed "opt-out" stuff. Complaining to the right people does at least seem to slow those type of spammers down :) -Toth From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Apr 14 17:42:57 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CBA05F1.32648227@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've had semicondcutor RAM fail, albeit not DRAM in a PC. 2114s are > > > particularly bad for this. ... > Hmm.. I've had so many 2114s fail, in equipment from different > manufacturers (examples : a Commodore 8050 disk drive, a TRS80 Model 3 > (video RAM) and an HP82163 video interface) that I really suspect the > chips... I had a 2114 go bad in my UK101. I swapped it into the video RAM, which made the stuck "1" bit visible as a dud character in the middle of the screen. Scrolling made it "smear" all the way up to the top. More recently, I've managed to obtain a supply of 2114s to (hopefully) keep the UK101 going. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Apr 14 18:31:33 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: NeXT Dimension Cube for $250 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those that might be interested, there's a NeXT Cube with '040 and Dimension board for sale on eBay with a 'buy-it-now' price of $250. The Dimension board easily goes for more than that normally. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017198576 As usual, I have no connection with the auction....just passing it on in case anyone is interested. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bill at timeguy.com Sun Apr 14 18:38:39 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Laughlin Nevada for $19.95 ADV. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020414183706.Y96309-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> Have you considered using a blacklist lookup, like spamcop.net? Depending on what mail server you're using, it can be pretty easy to set up. From meltie at myrealbox.com Sun Apr 14 18:55:04 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <1018828507.2725.6.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Hello all. I was wondering if any of you know of a good power supply rebuilders in the UK? Why? Because i'm rather scared of the PSU bricks supplied with my VAX 11/750. 5V @ 135A, 2.5V @ 85A sounds unhealthy. I've seen small capacitors the size of your thumbnail make holes in ceilings when abused, I don't want to see what the four caps as thick as your arm and about 10" long that construe most of the 11/750 PSU system will do when being powered up in a (known) broken PSU setup after ~10 years storage. What do I do? Do I get the PSUs rebuilt? (if such a service exists) Do I order a new industrial PSU to supply these voltages/currents (plus others, such as the +15 for the memory boards)? Do I buy 5 or 6 PC power supplies and run their outputs in parallel with some nice heavy-gauge cable? Alex From davebarnes at adelphia.net Sun Apr 14 18:59:55 2002 From: davebarnes at adelphia.net (David Barnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: DEC KZQSA wanted Message-ID: <3CBA17FB.AF51A79D@adelphia.net> Anyone have a KZQSA with handles for a BA430 (Vax 4000 series) cab they want to trade for? I have lots of DEC stuff so just ask... -- David Barnes davebarnes@adelphia.net OpenVMS , Tru64, Netbsd, Linux guru and collector of DEC equipment From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 19:21:20 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs In-Reply-To: <1018828507.2725.6.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> from "Alex White" at Apr 15, 2 00:55:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020415/df210a7e/attachment.ksh From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 14 18:37:52 2002 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:44:48 +0200 (MEST) . Message-ID: In message , Thilo Schmidt writes: >To get the hierarchy ("<=>" means equivalent): > >FSMs <=> regular languages <=> primitive recursive functions > >PDAs <=> context free languages <=> partial recursive functions > >Turing Machines <=> context sensitive languages <=> computable functions One quibble: Linearly bounded automata <=> context sensitive languages Turing Machines <=> phrase structured languages Of course, if you want to get exotic, there's probabilistic automata. Throw in rules for creating new states and updating probabilities based on experience and you've got the machine learning research in my dissertation. Brian L. Stuart From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 14 20:05:02 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: <200204141013.g3EADe804945@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > Especially since that machine isn't Qbus. It's main bus is that 4300+ > > PELE stuff. > True and false. ;-) > The machine has a QBus and therefore the CPU card has a QBus interface. > So it is a QBus VAX by my definition. > The CPU board is no QBus board like the KA630..KA660. It has a special > backplane connector and the (passive) backplane distributes the signals > from this connector to the QBus slots, the memory slots and DSSI drive > bays. So this is no QBus VAX by your definition. But that is not how I define it. The system bus of this machine is not Qbus, so the machine is not a Qbus machine. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 20:10:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CB8FA20.291AF889@jetnet.ab.ca> <003a01c1e398$28354b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CB999A2.E5861A12@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004601c1e41a$5f3cfe80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The easy part is the socket ... If you get a PGA socket for the 84-pin PLCC socket and plug the PLCC socket into it, your problem is solved. The PGA socket once was very common, but, though it isn't any longer popular, it is still quite avaialble. I personally used the "back" portion of a wirewrap card for the PC/AT, made by Vector, that had 0,055" holes drilled for wire-wrap pins. I had a number of old wire-wrap boards with only 16-pin footprints, from Garry Mfg, and one weekend, while waiting for a repair of my prosthesis, I knocked out aout 5000 such pins from a bunch of boards. I simply insert them in the holes, and they make up a socket in whatever pattern I desire. There are several mfg's who'll supply you with those pins if you're willing to pay the price. The cost, ISTR, seems to hover between $0.10 and $0.15 per pin, which price is generally beaten with the adapters if you buy them already made up. Companies like Aires and Emulation Technology, though there are several more that I'd look at before buying, since both of these are pretty pricey. If you get a part number from Aires and E.T, nearly anyone else will be able to tell you right away whether they can supply an equivalent. More below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: ; Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > If you buy a moderately cheap CPLD, e.g. the XILINX 95108, in a PLCC84, it > > costs about $20-30 U.S. at DigiKey. Combine that with a socket, ($4 tops) and > > a few wirewrap socket pins, ($.10 each) that's another $8.40. Now find a > > cheap wirewrap board to which you can solder ... and then use the free > > software and build the ~$5 ISP adapter. > > Has anybody done that? > I personally used the ALTERA ISP adapter that was sent to me as part of a sample kit together with a crosspoint switch with which I manipulate the positions of the signals in order to make up the differences between signal assignments from one applicaiton to another. I don't remember that I had to use it, but it was plugged in. There are, after all, only so many signals that you can manipulate. > > > For the same money, you can use a > > Xilinx SPARTAN-series FPGA which you can also program using the ISP > > programmer, though you'll have to do it every time. Then you can design > > pretty much whatever small computer (only because of pin-count limitations) > > you want. These devices even allow you to put in some RAM. > > > I have a nice FPGA prototype kit, (altera) but I am having problems > getting A PROM for it. I may go to using smaller chips like the XC-9572 > (72 macro cells) ? $12 canadian. They don't make wire wrap PLCC sockets > (or not in DigiKey) so I will end up with making a PCB. I have a new CPU > design and expect about 10 CPLD's in total. > -- Both manufacturers seem to believe that you can program their FPGA's from the parallel port without any sort of prom. I've not yet seen a clear description of how to do it, though. It probably treads on their programming technology which they think is "secret." > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 20:27:53 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <00a701c1e3d0$9a630d50$4bf09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <007201c1e41c$c3bc4f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Which tools are you referring to, Allison? I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) 2064's, don't work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series parts (which, back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured out a way to program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" software. They clearly are no longer supported with current software. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:16 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > From: Ben Franchuk > >> If you buy a moderately cheap CPLD, e.g. the XILINX 95108, in a > PLCC84, it > >> costs about $20-30 U.S. at DigiKey. Combine that with a socket, ($4 > tops) and > >> a few wirewrap socket pins, ($.10 each) that's another $8.40. Now > find a > >> cheap wirewrap board to which you can solder ... and then use the free > >> software and build the ~$5 ISP adapter. > >Has anybody done that? > > > I've done this with other similar packaged devices and it flies. > > >I have a nice FPGA prototype kit, (altera) but I am having problems > >getting A PROM for it. I may go to using smaller chips like the XC-9572 > >(72 macro cells) ? $12 canadian. They don't make wire wrap PLCC sockets > > > What prom are you looking for? > > I'm still playing with some 2064s and 3030s and 3050s, yes they are old > but > the tools were free, the parts cheap and easy to load up with a 2816/64. > > Allison > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 20:32:30 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <00a701c1e3d0$9a630d50$4bf09a8d@ajp166> <3CB9B6E8.C62F78EE@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <008001c1e41d$6a701780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Won't these parts work with ordinary EPROMS? That's what we used back when I was routinely using XILINX parts. It's possible to build a PAL (though the equations may no longer be on their website) that takes your clock and the data from a parallel EPROM and makes it into a serial stream compatible with the XILINX parts. I can't imagine that it's impossible to do that with Altera and Atmel parts as well. It's likely that the evaluation boards won't like parallel EPROMs, since the mfg's want to promote their serieal EEPROMs, but you have tools, right? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:05 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > ajp166 wrote: > > > I've done this with other similar packaged devices and it flies. > Got any more details? > > What prom are you looking for? > > > > I'm still playing with some 2064s and 3030s and 3050s, yes they are old > > but > > the tools were free, the parts cheap and easy to load up with a 2816/64. > > > > Allison > > I am using Altera. Altera EPC1141LC20,EPC1LC20 or ATMEL > AT17C512A,AT17C010A. > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 14 20:40:55 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: Re: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <200204141013.g3EADe804945@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15546.12199.508137.690132@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 14, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > Especially since that machine isn't Qbus. It's main bus is that 4300+ > > > PELE stuff. > > True and false. ;-) > > The machine has a QBus and therefore the CPU card has a QBus interface. > > So it is a QBus VAX by my definition. > > The CPU board is no QBus board like the KA630..KA660. It has a special > > backplane connector and the (passive) backplane distributes the signals > > from this connector to the QBus slots, the memory slots and DSSI drive > > bays. So this is no QBus VAX by your definition. > > But that is not how I define it. The system bus of this machine is not > Qbus, so the machine is not a Qbus machine. Why, because the memory isn't on the Qbus? The MicroVAX-II's memory isn't on the Qbus either. The only other difference (in this context) is the presence of a DSSI adapter on the CPU board that isn't connected [logically] via the Qbus. Many systems have several busses. Which do you use to define the "bus" of the machine? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Apr 14 21:05:33 2002 From: MAILER-DAEMON (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Warning: could not send message for past 4 hours Message-ID: <200204150205.g3F1vMf36101@ns2.ezwind.net> The original message was received at Sun, 14 Apr 2002 16:59:08 -0500 (CDT) from user@stl-207-206-136-99.dialup.accessus.net [207.206.136.99] ----- The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred: Connection refused by postoffice.randbad.com. Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours Will keep trying until message is 5 days old Message delivered to mailing list -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/delivery-status-------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "classiccmp" Subject: Remove Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 16:58:48 -0500 Size: 1092 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020414/89b5cbd5/attachment.mht From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 14 13:12:45 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 In-Reply-To: <3CB9D762.50609@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > Being this was made in 1981 (according to the page), and based on the way > > TI did things, I would not be surprised if there was a TI-99/4a at the > > core of this machine, with the carthridge slot used to throw different > > applications onto the machine for various data communications scenarios. > > I'm guessing this was a way to sell /4 mainboards still in inventory > after the /4A was introduced, among other things. The mainboard might > have been redesigned specifically for the Insight, though, which is one > of the things I'd like to find out. >From my understanding, the TI-99/4 and 99/4a are the same save for the keyboard. Are there any motherboard differences? I wouldn't think so. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 14 13:20:49 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: NeXT Dimension Cube for $250 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > For those that might be interested, there's a NeXT Cube with '040 and > Dimension board for sale on eBay with a 'buy-it-now' price of $250. > The Dimension board easily goes for more than that normally. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017198576 > > As usual, I have no connection with the auction....just > passing it on in case anyone is interested. Speaking of NeXT stuff, I went over and picked up a couple of the NeXT laser printers from the guy who advertised that he had a bunch of them for sale. They were basically RMA units, but the parts inside were still wrapped in their original plastic baggies. I don't know if they work, but between the three I now have, I should be able to get one working. The sad part of this story is that this guy had upwards of 300 of these things that someone was storing in a storage locker. Once the costs became too great to continue holding on to them, and being that there were not enough takers, the majority of them were scrapped! If I'd have known how many this guy had I would have taken them to the ACCRC where they could have been sold off one by one (or two by two) at $10 a pop maybe. The ones I bought were only $15 each. These supposedly came from a local printer retail and repair company called Printerworx. They apparently had some trade in deal years ago and all these NeXT printers were part of the result of the trade-in. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 14 21:28:35 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <012d01c1e425$495a6bb0$4bf09a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? OLD tools, as in dos based. >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) 2064's, don't >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series parts (which, >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured out a way to >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" software. >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased out the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. Allison From blacklord at telstra.com Sun Apr 14 21:30:11 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions Message-ID: <169fa21693af.1693af169fa2@bigpond.com> Hi guys, > difference. The Colt was Commodore's XT-clone so no, the > keyboard/mouse from the Colt will not work with the 2500. > Keyboards If the Colt is identical to that sold in Australia, then the mouse from it will work with an Amiga. CBM designed the Colt with an unusual connector (PC wise) that was identical to the Amiga's. We used to sell the Commodore PC mouse to Amiga customers as a replacement, it was around $15 cheaper than the Amiga one. I actually ended up using one myself when my A1000's mouse went berko & died. Keyboard adapters (PC > A2000) where fairly common once, the hard ones to fnd are the PC > A1000, although I have a few of these. Cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From schickel at psln.com Sun Apr 14 21:48:04 2002 From: schickel at psln.com (Frank Schickel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 References: Message-ID: <3CBA3F64.A85343B@psln.com> Sellam, Actually, the /4A used a different video chip. The one used in the original /4 was a TMS9918, the /4A used the TMS9918A, which added a 192x256 pixel bit mapped mode. Later, Frank (Who subscribes to the 99/4A mailing list, too, since I still have my original 99/4A) Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > From my understanding, the TI-99/4 and 99/4a are the same save for the > keyboard. > > Are there any motherboard differences? I wouldn't think so. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 21:45:30 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <000001c1e42c$3be76940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 12:27 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > > Did not the early PAL's burn on PROM programers? (512x8 fuse prom) > > > > > Sadly this not true today. > > > > > > > > > My "early" PALs program on the same programmer that programs my bipolar > > PROMs, > > > > and my current-generation GALs as well. > > > > > > Everyone knows you can get 'universal' device programmers that program > > > PROMs, PALs, GALs, EPROMs, microcontrollers, and so on. The original > > > question was clearly asking whether early PALs used a similar programming > > > algorithm to the bipolar PROMs of the same time period. I don't think > > > they ever did. > > > > > Yes, they did, "burn" in programming circuits similar to what was used to > > program bipolar PROMs. These were simple circuits pretty completely specified > > in the datasheets. > > Well, 'programming' a PAL (or a PROM) includes both selecting the fuse > you want to blow and then blowing it. IIRC (and it's been a long time > since I looked at this), actually blowing the fuse was _similar_ > (although not identical) for both PROMs and PALs. Selecting the desired > fuse was pretty different. > Back in the '70's, one used a Data I/O Model 29 (?) which was very expensive, and for which the software updates cost quite a bit. There were, however, programming circuits/application-notes published by the manufacturers, e.g. MMI and Signetics, that went into considerable detail about how to program the parts in question. They emphasized building the circuit in such a way that you wouldn't damage their part and didn't put as much emphasis on how to program the part correctly, i.e. how to address the particular fuse you wanted to program, laving that somewhat murky, but it was there if you wanted it. > > I don't know of _any_ PAL that you could simply stick into a programmer > that had been designed for PROMs only and program it. There were (and > are) plenty of programmers that do both, and there were programmers that > took adapter modules for PALs and/or PROMs. > > But I still don't know of any PAL where you can take the fuse map (on a > computer), transform it if necessary and then upload it to a PROM-only > programmer that you've plugged the PAL into, And expect the PAL to work > at the end of it. > Well, if I had a PROM-only programmer, I'd interpret the designation of PROM-ONLY as meaning it was a waste of time to try to program a PAL with it. However, the technique of selecting the fuse was the only real difference, electrically between the two device types, and that was described in the early app-notes. Unfortunately, the 1986 databook I have at my feet is not early enough to include that information. I have a few earlier data books, and perhaps one of them will go into sufficient detail. The basic strategy was, however, the same as with a bipolar PROM. Select the fuse word by applying the appropriate signalling sequence to the device, then sink current through the appropriate output pin of the device being programmed, with the Vcc supply elevated to the specified level. IIRC, those voltages weren't much above 5 volts, and were, indeed, below the 7-volt absolute maximum. If you built a device capable of handling the bipolar devices, you had the basic hardware to do the PAL job already in place. The driver software had to be built, however, as did the code for translating the JEDEC file that the software, e.g. ABEL, PALASM, or CUPL, into the fuse selection/programming algorithm that would be executed by your programming hardware. Over the years, the makers of these devices have gotten tight-lipped about the programming algorithms because the home-built devices, even those built by knowledgable engineers, caused them such a service headache. If your local sales rep. saw that you were a serious user of their devices, you could gain access to that information. It just happened that in about '85 or so, I was working where I had ready access to a device programmer that did the job. Later, I had a job that absolutely mandated I have a "universal" programmer of my own, so I bought one, and later a second, and this stuff hasn't been an issue for me since then. > > > > > > Old sailing ships used a lot of man-power. While OIL is cheap wind > > > > > powered modern ships will not be developed. > > > > > > > > > Some guys are doing it. The Americas Cup bears witness to that doesn't > > it? > > > > > > Yes, and by analogy some people are still designing with TTL. > > > > > Not for serious work, though. TTL's too slow, uses WAY too much power, and > > Will you please forget the 'serious work'. Will you please accept that > there are people who design and build electronic circuits for fun. This > appears to be an alien concept for you. > I'll do that when you quit suggesting that the entire industry and its nomenclature are wrong just because it doesn't suit the dabblers in obsolete hardware. Things change over time because they are adapted to the needs of those who use them, and that includes the nomenclature. That applies to the majority who work in the industry, of which, you, Tony, are clearly not one. You, and everyone else, certainly have the right to call things whatever you want. but you should have noticed, by now, that this occasionally leads to semantic difficulties. > > > requires too much board space. While some advances in ship design have come > > from the countless millions spent by the yacht-racing community, I doubt > > anything worthwhile to the electronics industry will come from taking old > > Actually, I can see one way that there could be a benefit from using TTL.... > > The current advances in processor speed have come largely from just > increasing the clock rate. There haven't been any major changes in CPU > design to use those clock cylces more efficiently.... > That's only a small part of the acceleration. The use of multiple piplelines accounts for much of the performance increase along with increased datapath width, and other little features. The gradual increase in interest in parallelism is also going to help quite a bit, so we'll be seeing even more pipelines in the future. > > But somebody stuck with old, slow, TTL, just might hit on some way to get > more performance out of it (because it's all they've got, and they need > the performnce). The trick they discover just might also be useful to > speed up ASICs (or FPGAs, or ...) > And just exactly HOW would they extract more performance from it? A new architecture would require new software, both in development tools and in OS and as applications. Just verifying that their innovation would take several hundred lifetimes, and the generation of a full set of software would take that one individual working alone, until well after the next big-bang. > > That's a lot of 'maybes', sure. And I don't think it's likely. But I also > don't think it's impossible... > It's highly unlikely, simply because it's WAY too much work to twiddle the hard-wiring and WAY too slow to use TTL, and uses WAY too much power so folks doing serious development, even at the amateur level, use simulators to evaluate performance of new architectures, and programmable hardware to verify their findings. > That's not to say a person's WRONG in fiddling with discrete logic. It's just not terribly likely to be of much use. Like masturbation, it's unlikely to hurt anyone and produces momentary amusement. > > > > > One of my friends is building a sailboat in one of his vacant buildings. > > He's > > > > been talking about pouring the keel any day now. I want to see that! He > > says > > > > he wants to sail it around the world. I hope he makes it. > > > > > It is a mental masturbation project, though. There's no hope that it will > > And that's _exactly_ what building TTL circuits is for some of us. Now > will you please try to understand this! > I've got no problem with that. I do, however, disagree that the industry nomenclature is misapplied because it COULD or even SHOULD have been used differently. I do things that accomplish little more than amuse me for a few weekend afternoons. I don't pretend that they're going to produce anything, though. My interest in S-100-based microcomputers certainly hasn't done anything useful since the day I started using PC's. I haven't simply chucked the S-100 hardware on account of that, however. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 21:57:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <000101c1e42c$3c4c1e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 12:36 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Not that I've seen. The early MMI PALs (which were about the first ones > > > to be made) used a strange programming algorithm (IIRC you had to program > > > the chip in 2 halves, and the functions of pins swapped deneding on which > > > half you were programming). But at least the algorithm was published so > > > you could make your own programmer. Most manufacturers these days do not > > > publish the programming algorithms :-( > > > > > The stuff was published, but that didn't mean just anyone would even want to > > tackle the problem. Today, publishing the programming algorithms would > > Did I say they had to? Those who had the money could buy a programmer. > Those who had the time could build one. Same choice as with so many other > things. > > > produce a service headache for them, so they don't do it. > > I've heard this bogus argument so many times.... Plenty of > microcontroller manufacturers publish the programming algorithms for the > EPROM or flash ROM inside their chips, and presumably it doesn't cause > them too many problems... > I don't think it's bogus. There's a big difference between telling the user, in the datasheet, how to program his device and in fielding a phone-call regarding that matter. The mfg's know how many phone calls they have to deal with in connection with that sort of question and it didn't take them long to figure it out. Intel published the spec's on how to program their programmable devices including MCU's. The didn't however, publish the programming specs for their PLD's. > > In any case, all the manufacturers would have to do is put one more > location in the chip that can only be programmed on an 'approved' device > programmer. This location has no effect on the operation of the chip, but > it can be read out. The method of programming it is the one thing left > out of the published spec. If somebody is having problems with the chip > then unless they have managed to program this bit (== are using a > commercial, approved, programmer) then they get no support [1]. And if > you claim that misprogramming the chip could damage it so this location > could not be inspected, well, true, but then again, applying mains to the > Vcc pin will do that anyway! > This would cost 'em millions, and they save those millions simply by ignoring anybody too cheap to buy a programmer. Those parties aren't likely to help their sales numbers much anyway. > > [1] I've seen many HP documents that were distributed to user groups > under the NOMAS scheme. NOMAS = NOt MAnufacturer Supported. In other > words, use and enjoy the information, but we're not going to help you any > more. Needless to say, such information (which included things like ROM > source listings) is very valuable. > HP is not an IC vendor. Their practices have always been what I've considered unfriendly, so I've endeavored to avoid their products. Printers, notably, are an exception to this policy. > > > Devices (SPLD) are pretty cheap, and, quite common nowadays. The software is > > free, and today's small devices are reprogrammable so they can be > > But as I've said enough times already, the computer and OS to run said > software most certainly are not free! > Tony, YOU've made the choice to avoid the software and hardware that make things easy. Don't presume to criticize the device vendors for failing to support YOUR hobby. > > > > I've also learnt the hard way that if you're designing something that you > > > want other hobbyists to build, then avoid programmed chips. Almost nobody > > > has a device programmer, so you end up having to supply programmed chips. > > > That's bad enough, but you're also expected to replace them free when > > > they don't work (even if the idiot has tried to run them straight off a > > > car battery). > > > > > If you don't sell 'em anything, you can't be held responsible for what they do > > True. That was the first part of the comment. Nobody has a device > programmer, so they can't build your design. You end up getting dozens of > e-mail messages asking 'please can you sell me a programmed PIC for your > '. And you sell them one, and the support nightmare starts. Never again! > > > with it. If they buy a few parts from somewhere and abuse them, it's not on > > you. If you specifically tell them they're not allowed to build your > > circuit, as you retain the rights to it, but choose to share the information > > Odd, but when I publish a circuit, I expect people to want to build it. I > am not doing this as some kind of 'how clever I am' advertising! > If you don't want the associated headaches, don't publish the circuits. That is the choice that the programmable logic vendors decided to make. > > > contained in it anyway, you certainly can't be held responsible if they build > > it. Just wait until someone sues you because you used parts in your design > > that cost more than some other combination of parts, thereby causing their > > costs to go up. That'll get you to stop that sort of stuff. > > If somebody is so stupid that they can't analyse the cost of my circuit > against the cost of another one (including any necessary design time), > then to be honest, they're not fit to be alive. > I don't think that's a choice either of us is qualified to make. > > And if I am ever sued for something like this, then I will probably > fatally autoLART... > You're putting your fate in someone else's hands, Tony. I'd rethink that option. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 22:23:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <012d01c1e425$495a6bb0$4bf09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000d01c1e42c$e520a3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Do these tools have names, Allison? My old DOS-based tool for FPGA development, from MMI, was called XACT, and that's what was intended for the 2000-series devices. A later version supported the 3000 series. Which tools do you use for developing both 2000 and 3000-series bitstreams? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? > > > OLD tools, as in dos based. > > >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) 2064's, > don't > >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series parts > (which, > >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured out a > way to > >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" > software. > >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. > > > Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased out > the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. > I have Synario for the Atmel devices. It's a Windows-based tool based, I think, on a tool set originally cooked up by Data I/O. > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 14 23:13:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CBA05F1.32648227@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <001901c1e433$e5bcb860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That doesn't seem to me as a failure of the 2114, but, more likely, a failure in the update logic in the refresh memory circuit, possibly in a buffer enable or a shortage of hold timing on the data with respect to the write line. What, exactly, do you mean by "dud" character? If it appears exactly in the middle of a 2Kx8 memory array, it could, indeed be a stuck bit, and if it runs from the middle to the top/bottom that would be a candidate for a failed memory bit also. If, however, it moves horizontally, or moves outside the range residing in a single device, it's clearly something else. Have you tried moving the device around in the video memory array? It seems to me that there have to be at least two of them, and the "dud" character, whatever that is, should follow the device. 2114's are just about as plentiful as any device of the era could be. You should not have a problem replacing it. I don't know what the problems of sending hardware from the U.S. to the U.K. are, but I'm willing to send you a handful if you figure out how. The 2114 was about the first common I/O RAM device to achieve major popularity, though there were others, and it took people a while to figure out how to time things. A lot of such applications, particularly if they relied on the write timing of 680x or 650x CPU's didn't provide enough hold time on the data. One fix on a 6502 was to time write cycles with phase-0 (the input clock) while using phase-2 for gating the reads. It may work similarly on other CPU's as it increases the data hold time after a write. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Honniball" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 4:42 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I've had semicondcutor RAM fail, albeit not DRAM in a PC. 2114s are > > > > particularly bad for this. > ... > > Hmm.. I've had so many 2114s fail, in equipment from different > > manufacturers (examples : a Commodore 8050 disk drive, a TRS80 Model 3 > > (video RAM) and an HP82163 video interface) that I really suspect the > > chips... > > I had a 2114 go bad in my UK101. I swapped it into the video RAM, > which made the stuck "1" bit visible as a dud character in the > middle of the screen. Scrolling made it "smear" all the way up > to the top. > > More recently, I've managed to obtain a supply of 2114s to > (hopefully) keep the UK101 going. > > -- > John Honniball > coredump@gifford.co.uk > > > From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Sun Apr 14 23:35:59 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. References: Message-ID: <3CBA58AF.E97541A8@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > So will this guy boot from Tim Shoppa's RT-11 CD? > No, none of Tim's CD's are bootable. Also, be aware, that it isn't exactly > easy to find a hardware combination that will allow a PDP-11 to talk to a > CD-ROM. I use a Viking SCSI controller (which needs almost current ROMs to > be able to handle CD-ROM's) and a DEC RRD-42. Jerome Fine replies: I think I finally figured out a method of creating a bootable CD under RT-11 which also holds a set of files under the ISO file structure. I don't know if it will work under anything but DOS/W95/W98, but here goes. Note that I have noticed that there may be some hardware/software problems with one of the SCSI CDROM drive I am using, so I suspect that this whole procedure may take a bit of time to work out. If anyone is interested enough to follow all of the details, I would appreciate helpful comments. The key point is that I will likely use RT-11 to solve the problem of transferring the data to the hard disk file "BurnImage.DSK" which will be used to hold all the data until it is ready to be transferred to the final CD. As such, I still need to modify the DUP.SAV program so that I can easily copy block 65535 of an RT-11 partition to the last block of all of the non-RT-11 partitions at the start of the disk file "BurnImage.DSK" - right now, the DEC distributions will read, but not write block 65535. There is a simple way around this problem and I will use the work around the first few times. First, I make the assumption that DOS/W95/W98 allow readable sectors in the area of sectors zero to 15 (sectors are 2048 bytes each). I did a "DUMP" under "Nero Burning" and in every case, where I had set up only an ISO file structure, all 16 sectors had 2048 bytes of zeros. Where I had an RT-11 file structure, the correct data was there instead. I will first try all this out with a CD-RW (erasable CD). (a) Create the CD with the files that the user wants to have under the ISO file structure with ONE additional file which MUST be contained within the first 32 MBytes or 16383 sectors (of 2048 bytes each) on the CD. This additional file will be the RT-11 DSK file that I want to be bootable. (b) After I create the CD with the files that I want to be there under the ISO file, I use PUTR to create a file on the hard disk that will be exactly the number of bytes which I will eventually use for the "Burn Image" option. The size of BurnImage.DSK will be an integer multiple of 33,554,432 bytes. The fist portion covers the files under the ISO file structure. The second portion covers the files under the RT-11 files structure. Normally, the maximum size will be 20 RT-11 partitions or 671,088,640 bytes. (c) Under E11, I will mount both: MOUNT DU0: CDROME:/RONLY MOUNT DU1: BurnImage.DSK after which I will run RT-11 and copy each 65536 block partition from DU0: from the CD to the hard disk file. (d) This is now the tricky part. That bootable DSK file which is also a file under the ISO file structure must be located somewhere in BurnImage.DSK in the first 32 MBytes. I am not sure yet if it will start on a sector boundary, but after it is found, I will need to set up the RT-11 fist structure in the first 64 blocks of BurnImage.DSK by putting a dummy file in that file structure immediately in front of the first file in that bootable.DSK file. Alternatively, I suspect that the starting block number can be set to be the correct start of the first file in the bootable.DSK, so a bit of calculations will be needed. (e) Finally, the RT-11 partitions in the second portion will be copied to the RT-11 partitions in hard disk file. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 14 23:53:32 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: DEC AUI stuff (was re: A2065 Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413114526.00a601d0@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <20020415045332.21247.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Murphy wrote: > At 09:52 AM 4/13/02 -0500, pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > >Looks like I'm getting my DEC 5-letter scrambles confused. Easy to do. > That's the DEBNT. (10 Megabit ethernet bridge). I'm pretty sure the two VAX-BI 10Mbps ethernet cards are the DEBNI and the DEBNT. The "B" this case being the distinguishing letter. Could be wrong, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 14 23:59:22 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: Amiga 2500 questions In-Reply-To: <169fa21693af.1693af169fa2@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <20020415045922.84381.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- blacklord wrote: > Hi guys, > > Keyboard adapters (PC > A2000) where fairly common once, the hard ones > to fnd are the PC > A1000, although I have a few of these. The difference between an A1000 and an A2000 keyboard is one of the physical connector (DIN-5 vs RJ-11). A pinswabber is trivial to make compared to a PC<->Amiga protocol converter. Somewhere here, I have an A2000<->A1000 adapter. I think I paid $10 for it at a show. Given how it's made, that was too much. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 02:16:00 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002201c1e44d$65ba2fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This argument is still over the same things about which we always end up arguing, namely how things SHOULD or COULD be, vs. how they are. What's possible clearly isn't as important in the world in which I live as what's REAL. I live and die on what's real. Engineers don't get paid for coming up with things that SHOULD be. The things that exist only in the subjunctive don't pay my bills. see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 2:46 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > I've had semicondcutor RAM fail, albeit not DRAM in a PC. 2114s are > > > particularly bad for this. > > > > > I don't think it's the parts, but, rather, the way in which they're used. I > > Hmm.. I've had so many 2114s fail, in equipment from different > manufacturers (examples : a Commodore 8050 disk drive, a TRS80 Model 3 > (video RAM) and an HP82163 video interface) that I really suspect the > chips... > > > have noted that 2114's seem to have a problem. I also wonder at the relative > > freedom from memory problems in the PC environment. I did occasionally have > > memory problems back in the CP/M days, mostly due to poorly timed DRAM > > circuits. > > I've had problems in PCs due to poorly designed memory boards (ground > bounce and power line noise, for example), but that's not the fault of > the memory chips > Verly likely, but not something I've run into, myself. > > > > > > > > > > A PAL can generate any combinatorial function of its inputs. A prom > > can > > > > > viewing its inputs in terms of the fact that PALs generally have 8 or more > > outputs, and in view of the fact that those separate outputs may not want to > > For combinatorial circuits, having outputs just means having > times the complexity. So for the purposes of discussion it's reasonable > just to consider one output (this applies to both PROMs and PALs). > > > share product terms, there are limitations on the common small PALs. However, > > if you choose a device comparable to the PROM, they'll do it. > > You were the one who started off claiming a PAL was simpler than a PROM. > Now you're claiming that 'if yuu pick a comparable device it'll do it'. > I'll agree with that. If the device is sufficiently complex, it doesn't > matter which matrix (AND or OR) is programmable. But the complexity of > the device (and the number of bits taken to program it) will be > comparable for a complete PROM with 2^n locations and a PAL capable of > generating _any_ combinatorial function of n inputs. > It is MUCH simpler in its application. Most of the time, though a PAL has, say, 16 inputs, you use three or four of them for a given output, and you use a couple of the outputs in feedback. You use the internal registers because that way you don't have to wire the feedback externally, nor do you have to surrender PROM address inputs in order to use them, since they're already connected. The reason they "get by" with a relatively small fuse array, is because you generally want a couple or three inputs in various combinations, which become your product terms, and you want the feedback applied to those inputs as well, so you may end up with as many as 5 or 6 product terms per sum, but seldom the entire 8 or more that are avaialble. If you do need more, there are devices that provide them, and you use one of those devices. In a PROM, regardless of how many imputs you want, you have to program them all, and there's no software that does it for you. That in itself is already less simple, since you now have to come up with a bitmap for the prom size you're using. It's not difficult with a small prom, but with a bigger one it quickly becomes a burden, so you write an application to do the bitmap generation. Once you've done that for every size of memory that you intend to use, you're done. I don't know where you'll get a PROM with 16 address lines and address-access times on the order of what a PAL delivers, but that's another issue. The fact is that what people wanted when PALs were being developed as a product concept was a small, self-contained unit that could be defined and programmed separately from its PCB environment and externally modified, if requires, just as a bipolar prom would be. The business of utilizing them fully was easy to handle because each output was programmable as an entity unto itself even though the final device was integrated together with several unrelated functions. All that's quite straightforward to work out in either a PAL or a PROM. You need a "fuse" to each product term in the entire array, and whether the "fuse" is open or closed, each one has to be dealt with. SO, if you have 7 product terms per sum term, and have 8 sum terms, and 16 inputs, then you have to support a fuse array of 32 x 56 for the logic and 32 x 8 for the control terms, if that's what it takes, as in a 16L8. > > > > Any real PAL has a limited number of OR terms for each output. (typically > > > around 8 or so). > > > > > What this suggests is that you've chosen the wrong device. You can't do the > > Oh, for %deity's sake, this has got totally ridiculous... > > If you are claiming that _in principle_ a device with only a programmable > AND matrix can genearate any combinatorial function then I'll agree with > you -- provided the number of product terms is large enough. But most > (all?) real PALs have a limited number of product terms. For many > real-world applications there are enough product terms. But there are > still functions you can't generate if you wanted to. > NO, what I'm saying is that there's a device to fit whatever your application. If a PROM will do it, perhaps that's the right choice, but it's going to be a bigger prom and it may require extra devices to finish the job. The PAL makes it simpler because you can design your PCB knowing that your logic can be designed as a separate task with complete confidence, since you do know what your inputs and outputs will be and that your functions can be fit in that device footprint. Now, I've used, say, an ICT 7024 to correct a layout error, e.g. where the layout of the part was upside down, with inputs where the outputs go, and vice-versa. The 7024 has outputs on all the pins except the corner pins, and they aren't outputs on a 22V10. > > > same things with ANY device. Take a look at the spec for the 16V8 and compare > > it with the 42VA12. Clearly, they have different size "fuse" arrays, and, if > > you want to program the device such that it produces functions of a size that > > consumes the entire "fuse" array, then you'll end up with a single output, but > > you can implement that function. With the 42VA12 you have 64 product terms, > > each of which can have any combination of the 42 inputs. On the 16V8 you have > > OK, you have 42 inputs, and let's just consider having one output. Tell > me, does it take 4 terabits (=2^42 bits) to specify the programming fuse map > for that one output? Because if it takes less, it's clear to me there > must be some functions you can't implement. If you don't understand this, > then _please_ read some books on electronics and/or mathematics before > going off on some other tangent. > You can program both the AND and OR arrays, Tony, so the functions you would want to create are quite a bit more flexible. If you need all combinations of the 42 inputs, you do, indeed need a PROM. If, however, you consider REAL WORLD problems and their solution I've got some difficulty conceiving of a logic function that would consume the entire resources of a 42VA12, in real terms. I know, you could want to detect an access to a particular location within a large address space, which would, of course, require a pretty large gate. That's a single function of the input range, though, and it would take only one product term. I'm having some difficult getting my hands aroung what you're suggesting about the apparent lack of ability of the PAL device type, Tony. Could you provide an example of a logic function that couldn't be specified in a 42VA12? I'm sure they exist, but, speaking in real-world terms, I don't see a need for them. That's why the 42VA12 is no longer offered, having be replaced with another device of a more flexible, yet efficient, architecture. If there's a unique logic function, as you've said, a single product term should handle it, and if there is some strange logic function that requires a multi-Tb PROM, I'd be interested in just exactly how you're planning to specify it. > > > less flexibility. MANY functions will fit in a small device like the 16V8. > > I don't dispute this at all. Yes, PALs (and GALs) are useful. They will > handle many real-world logic functions. So? > > > It has a relatively small fuse array, in general, smaller than what's in a > > PROM, though it's larger than 32x8. > > > > > > So I take my function. I write it in SOP notation. I combine terms that > > > differ by one containing a particular variable and the other containing > > > its inverse when all other variables are the same (like > > > A.B/.C.D/.E + A.B/.C/.D/.E -> A.B/.D/.E). > > > > > You can let the software deal with optimizing that process, and in assigning > > Oh, not again! > > Of course you can use software to do logic minimisation. But software > can't minimise an expression that can't be minimised. Will you please > stop confusing the tools you use to help you do the work with what's > actually possible. > Partly, the fact it's simple to do enters into the discussion, while what you propose with a really large PROM requires devices that don't, AFAIK, exist, nor is it likely they will, and a huge effort in programming the software tool to create the bitmap you want. Now entering a bitmap manually for a 2^(42) word PROM, even if such a device did exist, seems a mite extreme. How many lifetimes would that take? A computer could do it, but you still would have to generate the map and enter the equations. What makes the PALs so useful is that they can exploit the programmable link technology without the designer having to account for all the obvious "don't care" terms, of which there are usually plenty. > > > the polarity of your outputs so the fewest product terms are used. This one > > is a single product (OR) term. > > Yes, of course. That's what the '->' symbol was trying to say. I was > saying that the 2 terms on the left could be combined into a single term > on the right... > > Now here's an expression that can't be further minimised : A.B + C.D . > THat takes up _2_ product terms. And you can write a function of the 16 > inputs of (say) a 16V8 that needs more than 8 product terms to express > it, even when fully minimised (whether by hand or by your beloved program!) > I do love the software, since it does what would take me a very long time in just seconds. What's more, it's been tried and optimized for years, so it's quite close to bug-free, which I'm not, even though I've been trying for a longer time than it has. If you read the fine print in the 16V8 spec, you'll see that you can feed the outputs from one OR gate to the poduct term array, thereby allowing you to incorporate that as a single product term into another sum. If you're using the entire fuse array, you have nearly the equivalent of a 256x8 PROM, which is what you should use if that's what you need. Of course, you get none of the benefits of a PAL architecture. The guys who built PALs also built PROMs and they certainly didn't intend to obsolete PROMs with their PALs. Ultimately, they did, however, since field-programmable nonvolatile memories are slower than the electronically reprogrammable logic devices they sell nowadays, and the conventional usage of such devices has, over the years defined devices that better suit some of the problems that were, in fact too large to tackle with the old, small PALs. Of course it's always been a combination of problems, with device resources at one end and the ability of the designer to use the resources effectively at the other. I can assure you, though, that if you can/will write the boolean expression, the software can fit it in a device that has adequate resources to implement it. Current generation software even will select a range of devices for you. There once was a company not far from here that provided a programe called MINC that would do that from a range of parts that you specified, trading off the costs, performance, etc, against others that would do the job. XILINX bought them in order to keep people from beneifitting from that multivendor approach. ISTR you could even add standard TTL devices to the mix and have it trade off the costs/performance with them included. That way you could trade off a design using PALs against one using registers and a PROM. AFAIK, it was the only such program that allowed the use of multiple vendor-specific devices in a design. It was expensive software, but I miss knowing it's out there. > > > > > > I then end up with more than 8 (or however many OR terms I've got) terms > > > ORed together in my equation. I can't minimise any more. And I can't put > > > it into the PAL. > > > > > ALL that tells you is that you've picked too small a device, or one with the > > wrong architecture. All PLD's don't have to be small ones, just like ROMs. > > Again, I have no problem with that statement. The problem is that the > 'right ones' (large enough ones) are comparable in complexity to the PROMs. > > > > Otherwise, I'll propose the following lossless compression system : > > > > > > 1) Read <2^n> bits from a file. > > > > > > 2) Regard them as the 'truth table' for an arbitrary input, one output, > > > logic function (this step is OK) > > > > > > 3) Turn that function into the equivalent 'PAL fuse map' (which you claim is > > > always possible, moreover, it takes fewer (than 2^n) bits to specify this). > > > > > > 4) I now write out this smaller number of bits to the output file. > > > > > > If step (3) is always possible, then we have a compression system that > > > reduces the size of all possible input files. Which is clearly impossible! > > > > > > > > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > > > > > > > And that should tell you something is 'wrong'. > > > > > Not exactly, since the PROM requires you to represent all the states of the > > inputs, while the PAL allows you to use only the ones that are relevant. > > Do you seriously believe that the compression scheme I've proposed can > always work? Because if you do, I've got a bridge for sale! > You can implement functions that don't do what you want. I'd be surprised if you haven't done that. > Actually, I haven't given this example a moment's thought. > > > > > > Of course I can!. I can implement any of the 2^(2^n) functions in a 2^n > > > bit ROM (which has n address inputs). There are _exactly_ that many > > > possible programming patterns of the PROM, each one corresponding to a > > > different function. > > > > ... and what would that function be? It must be pretty unusual. What sort of PROM would you use (be specific) if you need a function that complex in the time that a PAL offers? (or doesn't because it can't, as you say) How long would it take you to enter the logic equations for a function that had a 2^42 long array of ANDs on a 2^42 long array of ORs? I'd say the example is, once again, restricted by the limits of reality. The guys who invented PALs didn't want to replace PROMs. They just wanted to enable folks to replace PROM+registers+logic with a single programmable device. > > > SO you use a PAL with a fuse array of comparable size. > > I have aggreed many times that if the fuse arrays are comparable then > both devices can generate the same functions. You were the one who > claimed the PAL was necessarily simpler. > > > > What I am saying is that (say) a 16 input _PROM_ takes 65536 bits to > > > program it. A 16 input PAL (like a 16C2) takes many fewer bits. So there > > > have to be logic functions you can fit into the PROM that you can't fit > > > into the PAL. > > > > > Not all PALs are alike. The 16C2 is a decoder. It tells you when the desired > > address appears at the inputs. A 26CV12 is quite a different device. > > Actually, a 16C2 is not a decoder necessarily. It's just the simplest of > the original classic PALs. > I remember it being described as a programmable decoder. ... > > > > > > Of course you can make a PAL (defined as a programable AND array followed > > > by a fixed OR array) that can implement any cominatiorial function of the > > > inputs just like a PROM can. This is related to the fact that you can > > > write any function in SOP or POS notation I think. But the resulting PAL > > > will be as complex as the PROM. > > > > > Nobody said the device is simpler than the PROM. The job of concocting the > > You did! > I am thinking in terms of what it takes to implement the device. If you can specify the logic to fit in a given device, it's certainly simpler to use than if it's in three devices, particularly if you subsequently need to change something. > > > PAL is made easier by the rather well-developed tools that we have, though. > > And you sriously believe that similar tools cannot be written (and in > fact do not already exist [1]) to turn logic equations (or truth tables, > or state diagrams or...) into the bitmap for a PROM. > Software does exist to do more or less that very thing. First of all, FPGA's are just RAMs with feedback. > > [1] Considering that the FPGAs I used about 5 years ago used 32 bit RAMs > to implement all the combinatorial logic, there must be tools that turn > logic equations into the 'bitmap' for such RAMs. And I have no reason to > believe that such tools can only exist for 32 bit RAMs. > Yep! Sounds like the 3000-series Xilinx devices. They had more than a 32-bit RAM, but that's what you saw. Believe me, their software won't support your 32-bit RAM. It only supports their unique architecture. > > > Generating the fuse map for the PROM when you have 22 inputs is a big job and > > requires a big PROM, even though the functions are mostly simple. consider > > what happens if you have 16 inputs, 6 outputs, of which four are inverters > > with tristate outputs and the other two are strobes decoded from the > > addresses, with totem pole outputs that remain enabled. That would be a > > problem in a PROM in any event. > > True. But why do you insist of overcomplicating things. We are > considering only the combinatorial part of the circuit at the moment. > Why? One of the benefits of PALs is that they allow you to build two or three functions into a single device. You don't always want a PROM. If you do, you should use one. > [16C2] > > > Actaully, the 'C' means Complimentary, refering to the fact that the 2 > > > outputs are always inverses of each other. > I found an old-enough databook to have that device ... it's actually a 16C1, unless there was also a 16C2, which certainly isn't in this book. It appears that it has 512 bits in its fuse array. > > > > > > I can't find a databook old enough to have this part in it, but I do remember > > 16L8. It has seven product terms plus one for the output enable. That means > > The reason I picked the 16C2 was to avoid having any features that are > irrelevant to the argument. OK, you want to pick the 16L8. It makes no > difference. You might as well ignore the output control lines _because > they make no difference to the combinatorial functions you can > implement). And the feedback terms are almost irrelevant -- just add 6 > more pins to the package (IIRC only 6 of the outputs have feedback) and > seperatate the feedback signal from the output. You can wire them back > together if you want to. > OK, but Why? What's relevant is the question of what's realistically implementable. I know of no PROM with performance comparable with PALs, and I certainly know of no large field-programmable PROMs that are physically small enough to fit where a PAL goes. What will fit in a given package is of some interest. Now there are PLD's that have a really large AND array, since they can share them. There's no reason why a PROM of a given size can't exist, BTW, but there's probably a reason why they don't. > > The result is an imaginary device that would be more versatile than > the real 16L8. So if we can show this has restrictions (which we clearly > can), then the real 16L8 must have at least as many restrictions. > Yes, but the reason such a device doesn't exist is because there's too little market for it. The PAL is extremely simple to use for the purpose for which it was intended. The PROM, likewise is pretty easy to use for what it's intended to do. It's a lookup table. It can function as a multiplication table as you've pointed out, and it can do lots of other things. It does require squandering resources on functions not required in order to provide the functions of comparably sized/priced devices. > > > you can take all the inputs and create any combination of those in a single > > product term. If the seven PT's aren't enough, you have to sacrifice the > > output associated with one group of seven and pass it back as feedback into > > the product term array via feedback, which one of the macrocells hasn't got. > > That's the one, probably, to which you'd pass the feedback from another > > macrocell. If you need a really complex function it can generate it, but you > > have to use enough resources to do that. In this case, you have 64*32 = 2048 > > fuses. 1/8 of those are allocated to output enable product terms, so you have > > only 1792 fuses with which to combine the 16 inputs into 8 outputs. This > > OK. And considering it takes 65536 bits (or fuses) to specify an > arbitrary _single output_ function of 16 inputs you must now see the PAL > cannout generate all possible functions... > > > gives you a flexibility you don't have with a ROM, i.e. enabling only one or > > more of the outputs independently. Further, if you leave out the feedback, > > which a PROM won't allow you to have unless you feed the outputs back to > > address lines, which will reduce the number of independent inputs you have, you > > essentially have only 8 inputs and 8 outputs. That's 256 bytes, and that's > > Actually it's 10 inputs and 8 outputs IIRC (same as a 10L8, which has no > feedback terms). That would be 1024 bytes or 8192 bits. > > > 2048 bits, which is more or less what the 16L8 has. I'd submit that you can, > > with a similarly sized PAL create pretty much the same range of combinatorial > > logic that a ROM with the same number of storage bits has. Remember, if you > > I think I said this about 3 messages ago. And yes, it's clearly the case... > > > need ANY function of the 16 inputs, then you need a 64Kbit fuse array for each > > bit of output. There are PLD's that are that large, but they're not commonly > > used because the requirement for ANY combination of the 16 inputs is seldom > > encountered. There are such things, however. > > Again, agreed. PALs are restricted in what they can do, but the > restrictions don't matter for many real-world applications. Perhaps you > want to make an address decoder. Typically you need perhaps 2 or 3 (at > most) product terms of some of the address lines. That fits easily into a > PAL. > They offer flexibility beyond the capability of any PROM, but they don't replace what a PROM was intended to do. A lot of the special-purpose devices have gone by the wayside, e.g. the XOR PALs once popular for counters and the like, and the 'L' and 'R' types in favor of the 'V' types. That suggests that the PAL family, truly the simplest of the programmable logic devices, has been refined considerably. Unfortunately > > > > > > > And I am not disputing you can program a PAL to implement any function > > > consisting of one product term (which is what 'any unique combination of > > > the inputs' would be. > > > > I'm not convinced that you or anyone else can find a use for a logic function that requires more than 64 product terms of 42 inputs. I once had a very senior engineer-turned-manager tell me he had never encountered a function that wouldn't fit in a 22V10. I'm inclined to believe that, though there must have been some if the Signetics guys cooked up that 42VA12. That was one slick device, though. It could operate in part as a 22V10 superset, in part as a 20RA10 superset, and in part as a 32VX10 superset, by which I mean that you could use a few outputs as though they were from a 22V10, but with the 64PT sum, others as an async PAL macrocell with a product term clock, and others with the XOR term that the 'X' implies, which makes expressing counters much simpler (... weak example, but I've never used a 32VX10, so I don't remember anything about it, and haven't got the relevant databook in front of me). Normaly, the 42VA12 came in handy for me for fixes of previously 20RA10 and 22V10 logic that either didn't fit or needed an async element it couldn't have. The buried registers with feedback were a nice option. > > > You seem to be ignoring the fact that you can use as many of the available > > product terms as you like, however. That's why 16V8's, for example, are so > > popular. > > No I am not. You seem to think there are always enough product terms. I > dispute this. > > > > Go back to that 22V10 for a moment. I don't have the data sheet in front > > > of me, so I can't remember exactly how you can use the pins as inputs and > > > outputs, but I think I can program it so I have 1 output, 21 inputs, and > > > don't use any form of 'registers' or feedback terms. OK, I am not using > > > all the PAL in that case. > > > > > Just to refresh your memory, the 22 is the maximum number of inputs, the V > > indicates the "versatile" macrocell, and the 10 is for the number of outputs. > > Yes, but you don't have enough pins on the package to have 22 inputs and > 10 outputs simultaneously. IIRC some of the inputs are reallty feedback > terms from the outputs (yes, I know you can disable the output and use > that as a true input, but if you disable all the outputs the device is > not a lot of use). > Yes, the marketing department left its footprint here. The pins are I/O's, so you can use a pin as an input when its output is disabled, which meets the test. What I meant, I think, was that you have as many as M inputs and N outputs in a PAL designated MTN with the macrocell type specified by the T. With the parts that have product term output enables, it's not quite that simple, since you can use a device pin as both input and output. > > Hence my comment. IIRC this is a 24 pin package (with 2 pins used for > Vcc and ground). If I disable all the outputs but one, I can use the > remaining 21 pins as inputs, right? So I can make a 21 input function > with one output in this PAL. > > So far, so good. I now claim that I can't make _any_ 21 input function in > that 22V10. There are some that won't fit. > > > A 16R4 has 16 possible inputs to the AND array, which are available both true > > and compliment, and there are 8 outputs, of which 4 are registered. You get > > the idea. > > Indeed I do. I have used PALs and GALs. I have read (and understood) the > MMI databook (amongst others). > > > > > In the case you cite, you are discarding most of the resources associated with > > control, i.e. product terms for output enable, global reset, set, etc. aside > > Correct. These extra resources have nothing to do with implementing a > combinatorial function. Well, apart from the fact that they take up > programming bits, so there are fewer bits left to actually determine the > function. > This was done with an eye to the fact that, using a PROM, one often programmed bits that were redundant, since one didn't need every in put for every function, and one didn't need every output in every application. Today, the 16R4, R6, or R8, is replaced by the V8, as is the 'L8. I've never been plagued by product term depletion, though that was occasionally a problem. The cases where I encountered too few product terms it simply required I rearrange the output assignments on the device pinout. My main complaint has always been there were too few outputs, not too few inputs or product terms. Building a sort-of 74F269 replacement (subset) in a 20-pin package wasn't possible until the 16V10 became available. It always troubled me that they wanted two enables, yet didn't care to make a synchronous carry flag available on the smaller synchronous devices (74x162/3). This allows one to get around that. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Mon Apr 15 02:21:37 2002 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:24 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? References: <003101c1e24f$c9000500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Hello! I ve this nice question for all of you... what are the best ways to cure boxes that were out exposed to the weather for an unknown amount of time. Last week I managed to get my hands on 2 vaxstations 4000/60, a Cisco MGS, a HP Apollo 700 workstation, Sun Sparcstation 20 (WOW), a VAX 4000-300 and a Panasonic 7330. All have varying degree of dampness 8-((. At the moment I have them in house dry and warm... should I stuff them in the oven at low temperature and force a drying or best let them settle for some time. Please give me your advice. TIA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 02:55:12 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Enrico Badella wrote: > Last week I managed to get my hands on 2 vaxstations 4000/60, a Cisco > MGS, a HP Apollo 700 workstation, Sun Sparcstation 20 (WOW), a VAX 4000-300 > and a Panasonic 7330. All have varying degree of dampness 8-((. At the > moment I have them in house dry and warm... should I stuff them in the oven > at low temperature and force a drying or best let them settle for some time. I would carefully rinse them off, taking care not to soak anything that would be damaged by water. Then I would pat dry with a paper towel and let dry. I wouldn't stick anything electronic in the oven. Peace... Sridhar From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 15 04:13:22 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665CC@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >> I was wondering if any of you know of a good power supply rebuilders in >> the UK? > >Never needed one ;-) I hear the sound of a volunteer :-) >> order a new industrial PSU to supply these voltages/currents (plus > >Well, I'd rather keep the machine as original as possible (if only to >make repairs easier in the future), not to mention the cost of a custom PSU This machine used to at least power up without exploding at least two owner's ago. It seems to be the same machine reported as having a 2.5V REGFAIL about four years ago ... so it's not been powered off for a *really* log time. OTOH, the PSU blocks do need to be plugged back in correctly otherwise something *will* go phut very loudly. I'll go read the printset as soon as I dig it out, it may have details of what goes where. >NO!. SMPSUs do not like being run in parallel (unless designed to be used >like that). One PSU will end up attempting to supply all the current and >the other PSUs may not like having voltages applied to their outputs. And once the first one drops dead, the next most "powerful" one repeats the process. Proof by "induction" left as an exercise :-) Antonio From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 05:57:47 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Enrico Badella wrote: > > Hello! > > I ve this nice question for all of you... what are the best ways to > cure boxes that were out exposed to the weather for an unknown amount > of time. Disassemble them and stick all the boards in the dishwasher! Seriously, I think opening them up and removing drives, adapter boards and anything that might trap water would be the first step. With that many machines, it might be well to label parts as you go.... After everything is dried, you can see what else you may need to do. It's an excellent find, in any case! Doc From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 15 07:13:22 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Olivetti PC/1 question In-Reply-To: <3CB91AE7.105@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CBAE002.13217.D3CF4E0@localhost> > I would like to know the price of an Olivetti PC/1 at time of its > release in 1988, preferably in Italy where it was presumably first > available. AFAIR it was just below 1 Million Lira - at this time ~1000 Mark (Or nowadays ~ 500 Euro). I remember seeing all the advertisements in Roma, since I had a stopover there a few days before they start selling the machine. They did a _huge_ advertisement campain. In fact I was searching for one since then - until I found one two years ago at a car boot sale in Ascot (GB). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 07:43:02 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020413204853.033fc578@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415073959.0336b328@pc> At 07:13 PM 4/14/2002 +0100, you wrote: >However, how is it better than desoldering the LED on the card, soldering >a connector in its place, and running a couple of wires to the LED on the >front panel? Uhm, "better"? On this side of the pond, we usually go for "easy" or "well-marketed". :-) Or "cool". How about strands of unclad optical fiber to lead to the phototransistor that drives a second LED? We could sell a few tens-of-thousands to the overclocking case-mod crowd. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 07:52:28 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: <3CBA58AF.E97541A8@compsys.to> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415075031.0348ca58@pc> At 12:35 AM 4/15/2002 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >(a) Create the CD with the files that the user wants to have under the >ISO file structure with ONE additional file which MUST be contained >within the first 32 MBytes or 16383 sectors (of 2048 bytes each) on >the CD. This additional file will be the RT-11 DSK file that I want >to be bootable. I was pleasantly surprised to see that Nero has an option (found by right-clicking on a file in the left pane) to set the priority of a file to low, medium or high, which affects the order in which it will be written to the CD. I worried that you'd need to buy a more expensive mastering program, or revert to an older program had that bell-and-whistle. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 07:57:21 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: References: <002101c1e287$4a021f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415075501.03488d78@pc> At 06:30 PM 4/12/2002 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >A fanatic is somebody who can't change his mind, and won't change the >subject. Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything about the inability to format e-mail responses in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. - John From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Apr 15 08:10:48 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Fw: Help with Synergistic Info Message-ID: <008401c1e47e$f70e3440$27010240@default> Second attempt to send. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John R. Keys Jr." To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 5:51 PM Subject: Help with Synergistic Info > While down at my warehouse while looking for some manuals I came across > a strange box that was addressed to someone in MN. I opened it and > found a strange looking keyboard/computer. It's metal housing painted > black with gold stripes and printed on a label on the front "System > Logic / KBD-1 SYNERGISTIC DESIGN INC." . This is a strange looking > machine, the key caps are white clued on paper using black and red > printed letters. Anyone have one of these along with a manual or any > information on it? Thanks in advance John > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 15 08:14:23 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CBAEE4F.12898.D74D179@localhost> > I'm working on a project that I'd like to have an 'old-looking' computer > running a device as a sort of 'process controller'. I really want it to > have a 'blinkenlights' operators panel on it. As I don't have a > commercially made computer with a suitable frontpanel on it, I was > thinking about taking something I have and 'modifying' it to be suitable. Well, one thing would be to define what are the functions of a Blinkenlights panel. To me it must allow at least start/stop of the CPU on hardware level and memory modification without help of the CPU. A nice feature is singlesteping without a monitor programm, but hard to do for most microprocessors (here comes the need for ICE hardware). Furthermore a real Blinkenlights should give you a visual representation of all CPU registers at all time (if switched on). Again a feature not realy possible on microprocessors. Well, I'm biased from working with /370ish machines from the time before service processors came up :) > 2) 8-bit ISA interface card and a 'suitably old' PC - Maybe an IBM 5150, > maybe just a 486 - if I do a 5150, i'll be writing a bunch of assembly and > avoiding using an OS. If I choose a 386/486 (I have spare 486s) I can > work on a driver for it in Linux so I have some sort of usable OS > available. > 3) Apple //e card. I've got no idea how easy this will be to do - I don't > really know 6502/apple assembly at all, nor the bus. > #2 is the least amount of work for me, #3 some more work, #1 the most > work. Has anyone ever create an 'operators panel' for a PC or Apple 2? > I've got some ideas on how to do it (will definately require some > soft/firmware to make it work nicely). Is anyone else interested in > something similar? I was thinking about making something like a IMSAI > front panel - using the system's NMI to trigger the software to 'activate' > the panel. I'd rather take the #2 aproache, expecialy since the Apple slot offers all signals needed to capture the bus. The PC is, especialy with it's modern versions always a bit complex to do. Especialy hen it comes to DMA (which is AFAIR only possible with support software - read drivers). Also the A2 is by far the more simple machine to handle. And you'll get all CPU signals. All you need is a small sprogramm for single step and readout of the CPU registers. There is a 256 byte programm space associated to each I/O card, and 2 K wich can be requested by the I/O card. Usualy the 256 should be enough for named programm. furthermore you got some address space for I/O. If I think along this line, some 'debugging' cards for the Apple come to mind ... I rather suggest some kind of abstract interface, where the card hardware gives their signals on a fixed set of lines, and a pair of ports where the software pushes a specific data structure. On the other end of this interface the lines are either connected to lights by a wrap field (bus signals etc.), and a microprocesser recives the data structure and displayes it on LED displays according to some configuration data. The basic idea is a system dependant part which has to be made up for each host system and a nice 'Front Panel Box' which can be used for various systems. Anyway. If you like to follow this trail, give me a note. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From tim at snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk Mon Apr 15 08:19:23 2002 From: tim at snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk (Tim Walls) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <01c1e480$29201600$0a0a0a06@kafka.snowgoons.com> >From: "Richard Erlacher" >Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 03:45:30 am Europe/London > >> Actually, I can see one way that there could be a benefit from >> using TTL.... >> >> The current advances in processor speed have come largely from just >> increasing the clock rate. There haven't been any major changes in CPU >> design to use those clock cylces more efficiently.... > >That's only a small part of the acceleration. The use of multiple piplelines >accounts for much of the performance increase along with increased >datapath width, and other little features. The gradual increase in interest in >parallelism is also going to help quite a bit, so we'll be seeing even more >pipelines in the future. > >> But somebody stuck with old, slow, TTL, just might hit on some way to get >> more performance out of it (because it's all they've got, and they need >> the performnce). The trick they discover just might also be useful to >> speed up ASICs (or FPGAs, or ...) >> >And just exactly HOW would they extract more performance from it? A new >architecture would require new software, both in development tools >and in OS and as applications. Just verifying that their innovation would >take several hundred lifetimes, and the generation of a full set of software >would take that one individual working alone, until well after the next big-bang. I've been keeping out of this conversation so far 'cos I'm not qualified to comment on much of it , but this statement strikes me as just being Plain Wrong. Your own example of pipelines is a perfectly good example of something which could easily have been invented by someone in their back room building a processor out of TTL. OK, the resultant processor would not be commercially viable, but it would serve perfectly well to demonstrate the theoretical concept and a practical embodiment of it. Enough for the patent application you'd file before taking it to Intel to commercialise, for example! The argument that anyone interested in new architectures is wasting their time ('mentally masturbating' as you so delicately put it,) is entirely specious IMHO. The first stage is always proof of concept, commercialisation is an entirely different game. I doubt the researchers on quantum computers are going to give up and go home because the first devices they produce are the size of a room, require liquid nitrogen to run and - heaven forfend - don't run Windows 2000 or Microsoft Office. If a new architecture offers significant enough benefits, the software support and everything else necessary to capitalise on it will follow. Cheers, Tim. -- Tim Walls at home in Croydon - Reply to tim@snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 15 08:21:08 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 References: Message-ID: <3CBAD3C4.6080806@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >>>Being this was made in 1981 (according to the page), and based on the way >>>TI did things, I would not be surprised if there was a TI-99/4a at the >>>core of this machine, with the carthridge slot used to throw different >>>applications onto the machine for various data communications scenarios. >> >>I'm guessing this was a way to sell /4 mainboards still in inventory >>after the /4A was introduced, among other things. The mainboard might >>have been redesigned specifically for the Insight, though, which is one >>of the things I'd like to find out. > > >>From my understanding, the TI-99/4 and 99/4a are the same save for the > keyboard. > > Are there any motherboard differences? I wouldn't think so. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > Different VDP's, as Frank mentioned, and different ROMs. The 4A adds lower case ASCII characters, etc., The /4 has an equation calculator mode missing from the /4A. There are other minor differences that mean some /4A cartridges and disk software don't work on a /4. Don't recall if it's the same PWB. I have one of each machine apart somewhere around here and can look if you're interested. You're right, though, there is no substantial difference between them. It's entirely possible there's a /4A board in the Insight, just more likely a /4, in my view. If it isn't something else entirely. It's possible if not likely the terminal has its own ROMs, regardless. By the way, I'm hearing of yet another prototype machine that has an 80-col display. jbdigriz From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 15 09:13:23 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <003801c1e488$e8d7b360$4bf09a8d@ajp166> Xact, and older, much older version. I'd get the version number but the termcap file is OTL and I'm working on something else right now. That and a few bits provided by Tim olmstead to help with simulation. He was the one that got me into using them. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:46 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing >Do these tools have names, Allison? My old DOS-based tool for FPGA >development, from MMI, was called XACT, and that's what was intended for the >2000-series devices. A later version supported the 3000 series. > >Which tools do you use for developing both 2000 and 3000-series bitstreams? > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:28 PM >Subject: Re: TTL computing > > >> From: Richard Erlacher >> >> >> >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? >> >> >> OLD tools, as in dos based. >> >> >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) 2064's, >> don't >> >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series parts >> (which, >> >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured out a >> way to >> >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" >> software. >> >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. >> >> >> Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased out >> the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. >> >I have Synario for the Atmel devices. It's a Windows-based tool based, I >think, on a tool set originally cooked up by Data I/O. >> > > From jrice at texoma.net Mon Apr 15 09:38:04 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: NeXT Archive down Message-ID: <3CBAE5CC.4090004@texoma.net> Did anyone notice that the NeXTstep archive at peanut.org is down. DNS can't resolve the domain name. Has peanuts been mirrored anywhere? James From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 09:49:05 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > On April 12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs > > > she's never met. > > Actually, she already does and has publicly lamented about > this before. > Bummer. We should all have such problems. Indeed, if that's her worst problem, she has no problem at all. Anyway, it ought not to be too difficult for her to produce an anti-proposal procmail rule. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 15 10:05:39 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <002201c1e44d$65ba2fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CBAEC43.6DFDBD57@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Again, agreed. PALs are restricted in what they can do, but the > > restrictions don't matter for many real-world applications. Perhaps you > > want to make an address decoder. Typically you need perhaps 2 or 3 (at > > most) product terms of some of the address lines. That fits easily into a > > PAL. > > > They offer flexibility beyond the capability of any PROM, but they don't > replace what a PROM was intended to do. A lot of the special-purpose devices > have gone by the wayside, e.g. the XOR PALs once popular for counters and the > like, and the 'L' and 'R' types in favor of the 'V' types. That suggests that > the PAL family, truly the simplest of the programmable logic devices, has been > refined considerably. Unfortunately > I think this was because they expected PAL's to replace TTL. CPLD's now do that job. But then with higher CPU speeds, PALs have been the work horse of address decoding and glue logic enables. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 10:22:21 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> s all over the place....> Tried Minix? It would probably really scream on that machine, being a 286... If you belive that it had windows at one point, I'll assume you have a hard drive (Minix doesn't require it, but it's nice to have) I have used Minix on a Leading Edge XT clone with 512k or RAM. It runs perfectly well there. :) Alternatively, find yourself a copy of Geo Works, which will like your 286 fine, and has a much better GUI than windows 95. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' -----Original Message----- From: mikeykmc@hotmail.com [mailto:mikeykmc@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 3:58 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: OP SYS SETUP WHERE CAN I FIND A FREE WIN OP SYS SETUP SOFTWARE FOR MY COMPAQ SLT286? IT ALREADY HAS DOS/WIN INSTALLED BUT I CANNOT ACCESS IT- WIN? WIN3.1? I DUUHHHH DUNNO....!!! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 10:32:05 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: Re: looking for ideas... (John Foust) References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020413204853.033fc578@pc> <5.0.0.25.0.20020415073959.0336b328@pc> Message-ID: <15546.62069.111877.817270@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, John Foust wrote: > At 07:13 PM 4/14/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >However, how is it better than desoldering the LED on the card, soldering > >a connector in its place, and running a couple of wires to the LED on the > >front panel? > > Uhm, "better"? On this side of the pond, we usually go > for "easy" or "well-marketed". :-) Well, *some* of us do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 10:33:38 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: FW: Vax 11/785 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Hi everybody. Note that I have nothing to do with the following, except that I bought a Prime from these guys recently, and they're nice enough to hold it for me until I can move it ;) Well, that -- and I'd hate to see a VAX-11 go to scrap. It looks like they're looking for enough to make it worth their while to rescue the thing. No idea how much. You can email Joe at PPSJM _at_ prodigy dot net about this. Again, I know nothing about it, except that I couldn't' afford the money it would cost me to procure and move it right now, and I'd rather it not get torn apart. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' -----Original Message----- From: Joe Moir Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: Vax 11/785 Hello, I just wanted to throw this out and see if anybody has any interest. We have an opportunity to pick up a complete VAX11/785. With all the boards in it, it's actually worth a decent amount as scrap metal. It is currently queued for the scrap heap. I would buy it and resell it if anyone has an interest. I guess if anyone is interested make me an offer and I'll see if it's worth it for me to pick it up. Thanks Joe Joe Moir Peripheral Parts Support Phone-781-895-4892 Fax-781-895-4893 www.ppsparts.com From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 15 10:38:54 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CBAF40E.3040606@dragonsweb.org> Christopher Smith wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > >>On April 12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>>Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs >>>>she's never met. >>> > >>>Actually, she already does and has publicly lamented about >> >>this before. > > >> Bummer. We should all have such problems. > > > Indeed, if that's her worst problem, she has no problem at all. Anyway, > it ought not to be too difficult for her to produce an anti-proposal > procmail rule. ;) > > Chris > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. jbdigriz From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 10:50:58 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: Re: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: <15546.63202.610835.243682@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Last week I managed to get my hands on 2 vaxstations 4000/60, a Cisco > > MGS, a HP Apollo 700 workstation, Sun Sparcstation 20 (WOW), a VAX 4000-300 > > and a Panasonic 7330. All have varying degree of dampness 8-((. At the > > moment I have them in house dry and warm... should I stuff them in the oven > > at low temperature and force a drying or best let them settle for some time. > > I would carefully rinse them off, taking care not to soak anything that > would be damaged by water. Then I would pat dry with a paper towel and > let dry. I wouldn't stick anything electronic in the oven. Actually it works quite well, at *low* temperatures. Electric ovens work best for this since gas ovens produce tons of moisture. Trouble is, many ovens can't go low enough (~200F or so). I've had good results from sitting stuff atop floor-mounted heater vents in the winter. This obviously works best when the equipment in question has air vents. Over the past ten years or so, I have gotten a *large* quantity of equipment (literally hundreds of computers) that has been out in the rain, sometimes for months. Some of it I use daily even now. Computer stuff (except for floppy and hard drives) tends to deal with it fine, even monitors. Analog stuff like test equipment tends not to fare so well, nor does mechanical stuff like scanners (though my main scanner was indeed out in the rain for about a week; after a little TLC it performs flawlessly). The water doesn't seem to do any harm at all, even with long-term exposure...it's the crap that the water can carry into the equipment, and sometimes corrosion later on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 11:00:59 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467831@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I just acquired a 5' x 3' x 2' IBM AS400 drive cabinet. F--n heavy! Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, so you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC racks used the same thing. And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave me funny looks. Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Mon Apr 15 10:54:37 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415075031.0348ca58@pc> Message-ID: <3CBAF7BD.598A8BF7@compsys.to> >John Foust wrote: > >At 12:35 AM 4/15/2002 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >(a) Create the CD with the files that the user wants to have under the > >ISO file structure with ONE additional file which MUST be contained > >within the first 32 MBytes or 16383 sectors (of 2048 bytes each) on > >the CD. This additional file will be the RT-11 DSK file that I want > >to be bootable. > I was pleasantly surprised to see that Nero has an option > (found by right-clicking on a file in the left pane) to > set the priority of a file to low, medium or high, which > affects the order in which it will be written to the CD. Jerome Fine replies: THANK YOU!!!!!!!! I had not yet been concerned with that exact detail as yet, but I though it could be a problem solved either by the order of selection or via the name (alphabetical order). This feature makes the selection VERY easy!! > I worried that you'd need to buy a more expensive > mastering program, or revert to an older program had > that bell-and-whistle. I was not too concerned, but it is really helpful to know about the feature. One thing that I did not mention is that I will need to do a bit of hand calculations and SIPP set up in the directory which should NOT be very difficult for those of us who get into the directory segments all the time for other purposes. I presume that DOS/W95/W98 utilities are available that can do the same thing, but RT-11 utilities will serve just as well along with PUTR to initially create the file which will be the BurnImage.DSK to be copied to the CD media exactly as it appears. Actually, I think it is a bit humorous that the solution to setting up a multi-use file structure which will use the same RT-11 DSK file (placed there in the ISO file structure using the "Nero Burning" application software in the normal manner under DOS/W95/W98 - actually, any of the available application software can be used for the ISO file structure portion) is the use of mostly standard RT-11 utilities. The only two changes will be: DUP.SAV - must be modified to write block 65535 BINCOM - must be modified to read block 65535 Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 10:57:26 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... In-Reply-To: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467831@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15546.63590.656900.546737@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those > clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, so > you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC > racks used the same thing. > And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave > me funny looks. > Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount > sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? These are called "tinnerman clips" (not sure about the spelling). Suppliers like Grainger or Newark Electronics will likely have them, but don't expect them to be cheap...just a plain 19" rack from places like this can run over $2000. I get mine from surplus dealers, usually attached to racks. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 15 11:04:02 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467831@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <003701c1e497$294532c0$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I use those very type of screws and clip-on nuts in our datacenter cabinets. We get them from a local company called "falcon technologies". Don't recall what they cost, but I don't think they were very cheap. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: "NetBSD/Vax Mail List (E-mail)" ; Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... > Well, I just acquired a 5' x 3' x 2' IBM AS400 drive cabinet. F--n > heavy! > Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those > clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, so > you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC > racks used the same thing. > And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave > me funny looks. > Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount > sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > > From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 11:21:21 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415075031.0348ca58@pc> Message-ID: Amazingly enough, you can do this with the *nix mkisofs program by specifying the files to burn on its command line. The order that you type them is the order that they get put into the ISO image IIRC. Amazing how easy stuff becomes when you drop Windoze :) -- Pat On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, John Foust wrote: > At 12:35 AM 4/15/2002 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >(a) Create the CD with the files that the user wants to have under the > >ISO file structure with ONE additional file which MUST be contained > >within the first 32 MBytes or 16383 sectors (of 2048 bytes each) on > >the CD. This additional file will be the RT-11 DSK file that I want > >to be bootable. > > I was pleasantly surprised to see that Nero has an option > (found by right-clicking on a file in the left pane) to > set the priority of a file to low, medium or high, which > affects the order in which it will be written to the CD. > > I worried that you'd need to buy a more expensive > mastering program, or revert to an older program had > that bell-and-whistle. > > - John > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 15 11:28:56 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467831@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <15546.63590.656900.546737@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CBAFFC8.9090507@dragonsweb.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 15, David Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those >>clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, so >>you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC >>racks used the same thing. >> And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave >>me funny looks. >> Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount >>sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? > > > These are called "tinnerman clips" (not sure about the spelling). > Suppliers like Grainger or Newark Electronics will likely have them, > but don't expect them to be cheap...just a plain 19" rack from places > like this can run over $2000. > > I get mine from surplus dealers, usually attached to racks. :) > > -Dave > An auto parts store or auto body shop should have them. Look through the Dorman fastener assortments if nobody knows what you're talking about. jbdigriz From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 11:40:05 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467832@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > > On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > You also cannot attach two tranceivers through a gender bender and get > > anywhere, even if you provide power. OTOH, there are devices like the > > DEC DELNI that do have multiple AUIs, but again, it's designed for it. > > They have a bunch of these over at Purdue Salvage. I think I might grab > one for 'fun'. Let me know if anyone else wants any. If not, is there > anything 'useful' inside? If they aren't wanted by anyone, I'd rather > scrap them for parts then see them in a landfill. > > -- Pat > Well, the shipping would probably be fairly cheap, since they don't weight too much. Grab me one if they're free, I'd toss it in my DEC rack... :) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 11:43:31 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467834@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > ---------- > From: Dave McGuire > > On April 15, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those > > clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, > so > > you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC > > racks used the same thing. > > And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave > > me funny looks. > > Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount > > sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? > > These are called "tinnerman clips" (not sure about the spelling). > Suppliers like Grainger or Newark Electronics will likely have them, > but don't expect them to be cheap...just a plain 19" rack from places > like this can run over $2000. > > I get mine from surplus dealers, usually attached to racks. :) > > -Dave > > Okay, thanks. Someone mentioned they have seen some like that used in automobiles, probably in the body work... Might not work quite right, though... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 15 11:36:11 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <3CBAF40E.3040606@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3CBB017B.C44DE96E@jetnet.ab.ca> "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > > Christopher Smith wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > > > > >>On April 12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > >>>>Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs > >>>>she's never met. > >>> > > > >>>Actually, she already does and has publicly lamented about > >> > >>this before. > > > > > >> Bummer. We should all have such problems. > > > > > > Indeed, if that's her worst problem, she has no problem at all. Anyway, > > it ought not to be too difficult for her to produce an anti-proposal > > procmail rule. ;) > > > > Chris > > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 11:46:53 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467835@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the messages that I post to this list? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: John Boffemmyer IV > > Jay, I've worked with Endymion's MailMan 3 - great setup and very > flexible. > You will really like it once you have it in place. Plus, you can even > customize all of the buttons/images, etc. This way, if you don't like that > > default layout, in a few minutes, you can have it look any way you want. > It > also allows for integration of images into posts, etc. for realistically > handling the common need to include an image or two of whatever is being > discussed (IE: RS6000 board specs/traces, C64 diagram, etc.). > - John Boffemmyer IV > > At 12:42 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: > >Greetings; > >...... > >In order to address the previously discussed issues of [offlist] tags and > >html rejection, as well as because of a lot of other nifty features, I'm > >also considering using mailman. It gives a wonderfull web interface for > >those that want to do their subscribes/unsubscribes & the like on their > own. > >Yes, it still supports email subscribtion requestions. Basically, it > gives > >me a lot of flexibility and options that majordomo doesn't. Not sure > about > >this all yet. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Jay West > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 15 03:44:17 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Berserker Works vintage computer games (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 01:51:48 -0700 From: Jason Finley Subject: Berserker Works vintage computer games Hi there, I am trying very hard to find some very rare out-of-print software. I am looking for two computer games, "The Berserker Raids," and "Wings Out of Shadow." The games were made and sold between 1982 and 1989, by Berserker Works Ltd. They were designed for home computers popular at the time, i.e. Apple II series 48k, Macintosh 512k, Commodore 64, Atari 400/800, IBM-PC, IBM-PC jr. Berserker Works Ltd was an effort of Fred and Joan Saberhagen, and the two games I am looking for were based on Fred's "Berserker" science fiction stories. I am in contact with Fred and Joan, and they don't have a movable copy of the games. I'm trying to get a hold of the software for an official Berserker fan web site I am making. If you could give me ANY information on who might deal in such vintage computer games, or even where I might look to try to find someone, that would be great. Any leads would be much appreciated. Thank you very much, Jason Finley -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 15 11:48:14 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467835@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3CBB206E.28794.E3898DB@localhost> > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > messages that I post to this list? I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From mcap at ns.sympatico.ca Mon Apr 15 15:53:07 2002 From: mcap at ns.sympatico.ca (mcap) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: HP old computer Message-ID: <000801c1e4bf$8bebafd0$0e01a8c0@MCAP2> I am looking for the specs for a Hewlett Packard Vectra Vi series 4 5/90 computer. Someone gave me this machine which works fine however getting the darn thing open so I can install a cd rom is another matter. Its like a vault or something. If anyone can find specs for this computer could you please email me the URL to fenwick@ns.sympatico.ca Thank you Robb Fenwick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020415/b807fbf5/attachment.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 15 05:58:15 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: References: <200204141013.g3EADe804945@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020415125815.A371324@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 09:05:02PM -0400, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > But that is not how I define it. The system bus of this machine is not > Qbus, so the machine is not a Qbus machine. Even on a MV II / KA630 the QBus is not the system bus. The QBus is attached through a bus bridge to the on board system bus. The console SLU, TOY clock, ... reside on this bus too. So, by this definition, no VAX is a QBus VAX. Hmmm. Maybe the MV I / KA610 can be a real QBus machine, as it uses QBus RAM. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 12:00:25 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784415@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > Amazingly enough, you can do this with the *nix mkisofs program by > specifying the files to burn on its command line. The order that you > type them is the order that they get put into the ISO image IIRC. > Amazing how easy stuff becomes when you drop Windoze :) I _suppose_ you could port mkisofs to NT if you like... ;) Honestly, I wouldn't trust even the most stable version of windows (that would be NT 3.51...) to burn CDs for me. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 15 12:07:30 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <3CBAF40E.3040606@dragonsweb.org> <3CBB017B.C44DE96E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CBB08D2.5040105@dragonsweb.org> Ben Franchuk wrote: > "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > >>Christopher Smith wrote: >> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] >>> >>> >>>>On April 12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Yeah. She's gonna get a flood of marriage proposals from dweebs >>>>>>she's never met. >>>>> >>>>>Actually, she already does and has publicly lamented about >>>> >>>>this before. >>> >>> >>>> Bummer. We should all have such problems. >>> >>> >>>Indeed, if that's her worst problem, she has no problem at all. Anyway, >>>it ought not to be too difficult for her to produce an anti-proposal >>>procmail rule. ;) >>> >>>Chris >>> >> >>I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably >>be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > > I meant the C=1, of course. Geez, what's with you, Ben? :-) I'd clone myself, though, except it wouldn't be fair to the rest of you guys. One of me gets into enough trouble as it is. jbdigriz From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 12:15:35 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467836@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: James B. DiGriz > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On April 15, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > >> Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those > >>clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, > so > >>you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC > >>racks used the same thing. > >> And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave > >>me funny looks. > >> Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount > >>sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? > > > > > > These are called "tinnerman clips" (not sure about the spelling). > > Suppliers like Grainger or Newark Electronics will likely have them, > > but don't expect them to be cheap...just a plain 19" rack from places > > like this can run over $2000. > > > > I get mine from surplus dealers, usually attached to racks. :) > > > > -Dave > > > > > An auto parts store or auto body shop should have them. Look through the > Dorman fastener assortments if nobody knows what you're talking about. > > jbdigriz > Thanks! And an auto store would probably have them at a better price too... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 12:11:57 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: Re: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix (Jochen Kunz) References: <200204141013.g3EADe804945@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20020415125815.A371324@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15547.2525.943009.960008@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Even on a MV II / KA630 the QBus is not the system bus. The QBus is > attached through a bus bridge to the on board system bus. The console > SLU, TOY clock, ... reside on this bus too. So, by this definition, > no VAX is a QBus VAX. Hmmm. Maybe the MV I / KA610 can be a real QBus > machine, as it uses QBus RAM. Isn't the MicroVAX-I CPU called "KD32"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 12:25:06 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467837@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Hans Franke > > > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > > messages that I post to this list? > > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > It probably is Yale's fault, but what makes that hard to believe is the fact the this list is the _only_ e-mail (list or person-to-person) that has such a delay... Oh well, such is technology... :) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 12:19:55 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (Ben Franchuk) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <3CBAF40E.3040606@dragonsweb.org> <3CBB017B.C44DE96E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15547.3003.978685.836236@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. Hmm, can I place an advance order? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From meltie at myrealbox.com Mon Apr 15 12:35:59 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665CC@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665CC@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <1018892162.2523.9.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Mon, 2002-04-15 at 10:13, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > >> I was wondering if any of you know of a good power supply rebuilders in > >> the UK? > > > >Never needed one ;-) > > I hear the sound of a volunteer :-) :D Will you be my friend too? > > >> order a new industrial PSU to supply these voltages/currents (plus > > > >Well, I'd rather keep the machine as original as possible (if only to > >make repairs easier in the future), not to mention the cost of a custom PSU > > This machine used to at least power up without > exploding at least two owner's ago. It seems to > be the same machine reported as having a 2.5V > REGFAIL about four years ago ... so it's not > been powered off for a *really* log time. > OTOH, the PSU blocks do need to be plugged > back in correctly otherwise something > *will* go phut very loudly. > > I'll go read the printset as soon as I dig it > out, it may have details of what goes where. > > >NO!. SMPSUs do not like being run in parallel (unless designed to be used > >like that). One PSU will end up attempting to supply all the current and > >the other PSUs may not like having voltages applied to their outputs. > > And once the first one drops dead, the next > most "powerful" one repeats the process. > Proof by "induction" left as an exercise :-) > *giggle* OK, ok, thought it was best to ask.... *laughs manically* > Antonio > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 12:44:10 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178440C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: >>WHERE CAN I FIND A FREE WIN OP SYS SETUP SOFTWARE FOR MY COMPAQ SLT286? >>IT ALREADY HAS DOS/WIN INSTALLED BUT I CANNOT ACCESS IT- WIN? WIN3.1? >>I DUUHHHH DUNNO....!!! >Alternatively, find yourself a copy of Geo Works, which will like your >286 fine, and has a much better GUI than windows 95. Isn't Geo Works the only legitamate choice? ISTR, that it's been renamed and is still available with a lot of extra apps. I believe that a 286 is now the minimum requirement. Unfortunatly it looks like the copy I'd downloaded from their website, that supported 8088 and higher, was on the HD on my old 486 that died. I just looked through the archives from that system and can't find it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Apr 15 02:55:42 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:42:57 BST." <3CBA05F1.32648227@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <200204150755.IAA18421@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, John Honniball said: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I've had semicondcutor RAM fail, albeit not DRAM in a PC. 2114s are > > > > particularly bad for this. > ... > > Hmm.. I've had so many 2114s fail, in equipment from different > > manufacturers (examples : a Commodore 8050 disk drive, a TRS80 Model 3 > > (video RAM) and an HP82163 video interface) that I really suspect the > > chips... > > I had a 2114 go bad in my UK101. I swapped it into the video RAM, > which made the stuck "1" bit visible as a dud character in the > middle of the screen. Scrolling made it "smear" all the way up > to the top. > > More recently, I've managed to obtain a supply of 2114s to > (hopefully) keep the UK101 going. For the benefit of any UK readers, Maplin still list 2114s, part number QW12N, price 4.99 - how long for is another matter, however... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 12:39:39 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: <3CBAF7BD.598A8BF7@compsys.to> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415075031.0348ca58@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415123625.034950a8@pc> At 11:54 AM 4/15/2002 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >THANK YOU!!!!!!!! I had not yet been concerned >with that exact detail as yet, but I though it could be >a problem solved either by the order of selection or >via the name (alphabetical order). Having been involved in CD mastering back in 1992 and 1993, and having used a number of CD mastering programs, I knew that detail would be crucial and perhaps unavailable. It's the sort of detail that was only available in higher-end programs for a long time. They knew it would only be needed by people who wanted to improve access times - say by a game maker who wanted to preload a bunch of data. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 12:34:53 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: looking for ideas... In-Reply-To: <15546.62069.111877.817270@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20020413204853.033fc578@pc> <5.0.0.25.0.20020415073959.0336b328@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020415122538.0348cba0@pc> At 11:32 AM 4/15/2002 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >On April 15, John Foust wrote: >> At 07:13 PM 4/14/2002 +0100, you wrote: >> >However, how is it better than desoldering the LED on the card, soldering >> >a connector in its place, and running a couple of wires to the LED on the >> >front panel? >> >> Uhm, "better"? On this side of the pond, we usually go >> for "easy" or "well-marketed". :-) > > Well, *some* of us do. These days, a good share of the LEDs you'd want to monitor are tiny surface-mounts. You're saying it's "better" to diassemble your computer, un-mount the LED, and then re-solder in new wires? I say it's easy, more cool and "better" to have something that almost anyone could install. I realize you were probably speaking in general, and not about unsoldering LEDs, but let me digress... As for the general techie belief that "better" should always Win, don't point fingers at me - I whacked my head against that one for years in the Amiga market. The distillation of my Amiga market experience came from the lips of a drunken Amiga dealer at a party in 1992 or so. Of course, a popular topic of conversation was discussing why the so-obviously-superior-to-the-annointed Amiga wasn't outpacing the Mac and PC in sales. This dealer said of the past few years (at that time) that it was like we were all from five years in the future back in the days of radio. (I did say this guy was drunk, didn't I?) It was as if we'd all seen what television was like, but we were selling to people who liked radio and couldn't imagine the value of words with moving pictures. - John From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Apr 15 12:50:16 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467837@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > From: Hans Franke > > > > > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > > > messages that I post to this list? > > > > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. > > > > Gruss > > H. > > > > -- > > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > It probably is Yale's fault, but what makes that hard to believe is > the fact the this list is the _only_ e-mail (list or person-to-person) that > has such a delay... Oh well, such is technology... :) > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > I see the same thing, though more like a 20 minute delay, I often see a response to an email before my message is echoed back, so obviously not every one has the same delay. Its not provider related in my case since there are no intermediate mail handlers... Peter Wallace From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu Mon Apr 15 12:54:23 2002 From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... Message-ID: <200204151754.KAA11142@chiton.ucsd.edu> > From port-vax-owner-clowenst=ucsd.edu@netbsd.org Mon Apr 15 08:53 PDT 2002 > Delivered-To: port-vax@netbsd.org > From: David Woyciesjes > To: "NetBSD/Vax Mail List \(E-mail\)" , > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org \(E-mail\)" > Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... > Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:00:59 -0400 > > Well, I just acquired a 5' x 3' x 2' IBM AS400 drive cabinet. F--n > heavy! > Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those > clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, so > you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC > racks used the same thing. > Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount > sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? Tinnerman nuts. Google search returns 1350 hits. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From meltie at myrealbox.com Mon Apr 15 12:50:32 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:25 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467837@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467837@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <1018893035.2523.23.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Mon, 2002-04-15 at 18:25, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > From: Hans Franke > > > > > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > > > messages that I post to this list? > > > > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. > > > > Gruss > > H. > > > > -- > > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > It probably is Yale's fault, but what makes that hard to believe is > the fact the this list is the _only_ e-mail (list or person-to-person) that > has such a delay... Oh well, such is technology... :) All lists that I am/have been on that email crosses the pond and back have such a delay. Most of the UK-based ones are quicker, which is weird considering one can ping sites in the US with less than a hour's total trip time... Alex From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Mon Apr 15 12:55:07 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Motorola EXORterm 155 Message-ID: <3CBB13FB.E3104A10@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> It never ceases to surprise me how many ancient terminals are secreted away at work. On Saturday I found a Motorola EXORterm 155 which had been put out for the skip. There is no keyboard unfortunately, just a ribbon cable protruding from underneath the main body, which is about the size of a VT52. It appears to date from 1980, but I have no clues about how we used it. Google doesn't turn up many references, apart from a 1997 listing of Herr Franke's collection from our archives and a company called RA Ventures, who developed it for Motorola. So, any other info? From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 13:10:17 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467838@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Has anyone seen this news posting? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:55:13 -0400 From: Bill Gunshannon Organization: University of Scranton Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec References: <3Hmt8.2238$GS6.168438@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Deane Williams wrote: > Hello > Just wondering is there a reseller/company that will take > VAXes in trade for Alphas?? I'm talking about 3100s and > even some 4000/XXX and 36/38XX series VAX. And after they get done rolling onthe floor laughing you could put them on a truck and send them up here. I can at least promise they won't be taking up space in a landfill. bill -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 15 13:04:34 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>WHERE CAN I FIND A FREE WIN OP SYS SETUP SOFTWARE FOR MY COMPAQ SLT286? > >>IT ALREADY HAS DOS/WIN INSTALLED BUT I CANNOT ACCESS IT- WIN? WIN3.1? > >>I DUUHHHH DUNNO....!!! > > >Alternatively, find Before we get into arguing about "better" configurations, .. Does anybody know what the f he's asking about? Is his machine broken? Is it working perfectly, but he doesn't know how to "access" it? Is it the machine that he's writing with? Perhaps fixing the shift key on his active machine should be a higher priority. From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 15 05:06:51 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: TI Insight 10 In-Reply-To: <3CBA3F64.A85343B@psln.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Frank Schickel wrote: > Actually, the /4A used a different video chip. The one used in the > original /4 was a TMS9918, the /4A used the TMS9918A, which added a > 192x256 pixel bit mapped mode. Thanks for clearing that up! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 15 13:13:40 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Motorola EXORterm 155 In-Reply-To: <3CBB13FB.E3104A10@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CBB3474.32063.E86D3B6@localhost> > It never ceases to surprise me how many ancient terminals are secreted > away at work. On Saturday I found a Motorola EXORterm 155 which had been > put out for the skip. There is no keyboard unfortunately, just a ribbon > cable protruding from underneath the main body, which is about the size > of a VT52. It appears to date from 1980, but I have no clues about how > we used it. > Google doesn't turn up many references, apart from a 1997 listing of > Herr Franke's collection from our archives and a company called RA > Ventures, who developed it for Motorola. > So, any other info? The keyboard is a paralell type if I'm right. I'll check this tomorrow. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 13:15:29 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467838@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15547.6337.135179.650940@phaduka.neurotica.com> Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -Dave On April 15, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Has anyone seen this news posting? > > -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:55:13 -0400 From: Bill Gunshannon Organization: University of Scranton Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec References: <3Hmt8.2238$GS6.168438@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Deane Williams wrote: > Hello > Just wondering is there a reseller/company that will take > VAXes in trade for Alphas?? I'm talking about 3100s and > even some 4000/XXX and 36/38XX series VAX. And after they get done rolling onthe floor laughing you could put them on a truck and send them up here. I can at least promise they won't be taking up space in a landfill. bill -- > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 13:24:57 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Tinnerman nuts Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467839@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Carl --- That's close, but what I'm looking for clips around the rails, not into the hole, which is round. This looks almost exactly like it, at the bottom of the page... "Palnut Multi-Thread U-Nut" http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/retaining/palunut.html ..that's it, I think... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: Carl Lowenstein > > You would be happier with the type of fastener that uses real machine > screws rather than the sheet-metal type screws that some racks have. > There is a nice picture of them on the Tinnerman Web site at > > < http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/nutretcat.html > > > Of course, now that I think of it, DEC used something like that. > It was another brand of racks that used the sheet-metal screws. > > carl > -- > carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego > clowenstein@ucsd.edu > > From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Apr 15 13:21:50 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Does Anyone Have A Message-ID: Jonathan Engdahl mentioned the TI chip in the Simon game, which reminds me I have some TI TMS34010 chips and one TMS34010 User's Guide that I don' need. The chips are on B+H scanner (?) 3-board stacks with graphic RAM and SCSI and printer ports, and are a bit heavy. I can pull the TMS chip if anyone wants just that. Free for postage. Reply to robert_feldman(at)jdedwards.com. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 15 13:31:39 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it>; from enrico.badella@softstar.it on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 09:21:37 CEST References: <003101c1e24f$c9000500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: <20020415203139.G375840@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.15 09:21 Enrico Badella wrote: > should I stuff them in the oven at low temperature and force > a drying or best let them settle for some time. Disassemble everything, clean it in the shower if there is dirt on it, maybe rinse it with IsoPropAlc, put it in a warm room for some days. Disassembleing is good, as there may be small gaps filled with water that needs loooong to dry and reseating connectors that may be a bit coroded get better contact. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Apr 15 13:31:42 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP Message-ID: A number of Compaq portables require special software to do the setup. I don't remember if the SLT286 is one of them, but I emailed the guy directly with a link to the SLT group on Yahoo (compaqslt@yahoogroups.com), where someone should be able to help him out. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:05 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: OP SYS SETUP > >>WHERE CAN I FIND A FREE WIN OP SYS SETUP SOFTWARE FOR MY COMPAQ SLT286? > >>IT ALREADY HAS DOS/WIN INSTALLED BUT I CANNOT ACCESS IT- WIN? WIN3.1? > >>I DUUHHHH DUNNO....!!! > > >Alternatively, find Before we get into arguing about "better" configurations, .. Does anybody know what the f he's asking about? Is his machine broken? Is it working perfectly, but he doesn't know how to "access" it? Is it the machine that he's writing with? Perhaps fixing the shift key on his active machine should be a higher priority. From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Mon Apr 15 13:32:27 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Motorola EXORterm 155 References: <3CBB13FB.E3104A10@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CBB1CBB.C08B39E6@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> It doesn't look exotic at all, but if anyone wants a peek, I've just put some pictures up at http://vt100.net/motorola/ Warning: some pictures in state of undress. Model is certified over 18. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 13:36:30 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <01c1e480$29201600$0a0a0a06@kafka.snowgoons.com> Message-ID: <003b01c1e4ac$762f3e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> True enough, but the concept was cooked up by someone in their back room or lab back in the days when TTL was still leading edge technology, and nowadays, the most common remark about TTL is preceded by "where can I get a ..." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Walls" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:19 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > >From: "Richard Erlacher" > >Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 03:45:30 am Europe/London > > > >> Actually, I can see one way that there could be a benefit from > >> using TTL.... > >> > >> The current advances in processor speed have come largely from just > >> increasing the clock rate. There haven't been any major changes in CPU > >> design to use those clock cylces more efficiently.... > > > >That's only a small part of the acceleration. The use of multiple > piplelines > >accounts for much of the performance increase along with increased > >datapath width, and other little features. The gradual increase in > interest in > >parallelism is also going to help quite a bit, so we'll be seeing even more > >pipelines in the future. > > > >> But somebody stuck with old, slow, TTL, just might hit on some way to > get > >> more performance out of it (because it's all they've got, and they need > >> the performnce). The trick they discover just might also be useful to > >> speed up ASICs (or FPGAs, or ...) > >> > >And just exactly HOW would they extract more performance from it? A new > >architecture would require new software, both in development tools > >and in OS and as applications. Just verifying that their innovation would > >take several hundred lifetimes, and the generation of a full set of > software > >would take that one individual working alone, until well after the next > big-bang. > > > I've been keeping out of this conversation so far 'cos I'm not qualified > to comment on much of it , but this statement strikes me as just > being Plain Wrong. > > Your own example of pipelines is a perfectly good example of > something which could easily have been invented by someone > in their back room building a processor out of TTL. OK, the resultant > processor would not be commercially viable, but it would serve > perfectly well to demonstrate the theoretical concept and a > practical embodiment of it. Enough for the patent application you'd > file before taking it to Intel to commercialise, for example! > > > The argument that anyone interested in new architectures is wasting > their time ('mentally masturbating' as you so delicately put it,) is > entirely specious IMHO. The first stage is always proof of concept, > commercialisation is an entirely different game. I doubt the > researchers on quantum computers are going to give up and go > home because the first devices they produce are the size of > a room, require liquid nitrogen to run and - heaven forfend - don't > run Windows 2000 or Microsoft Office. If a new architecture > offers significant enough benefits, the software support and > everything else necessary to capitalise on it will follow. > > > Cheers, > Tim. > > -- > Tim Walls at home in Croydon - Reply to tim@snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 13:41:23 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <003801c1e488$e8d7b360$4bf09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <004501c1e4ad$247afe80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It may, in fact be about the same as my old version. I got mine from MMI back when THEY were the ones pushing FPGA technology. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:13 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Xact, and older, much older version. I'd get the version number > but the termcap file is OTL and I'm working on something else > right now. That and a few bits provided by Tim olmstead to help > with simulation. He was the one that got me into using them. > > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:46 PM > Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > >Do these tools have names, Allison? My old DOS-based tool for FPGA > >development, from MMI, was called XACT, and that's what was intended for > the > >2000-series devices. A later version supported the 3000 series. > > > >Which tools do you use for developing both 2000 and 3000-series > bitstreams? > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:28 PM > >Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > > >> From: Richard Erlacher > >> > >> > >> >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? > >> > >> > >> OLD tools, as in dos based. > >> > >> >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) 2064's, > >> don't > >> >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series parts > >> (which, > >> >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured out a > >> way to > >> >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" > >> software. > >> >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. > >> > >> > >> Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased out > >> the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. > >> > >I have Synario for the Atmel devices. It's a Windows-based tool based, > I > >think, on a tool set originally cooked up by Data I/O. > >> > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 13:43:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <002201c1e44d$65ba2fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBAEC43.6DFDBD57@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004f01c1e4ad$7408e660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, and they save on space and not only because of their size. You don't have to route unused inputs to Vcc or Gnd, and you don't have to accomodate the device pinout so much, since YOU get to decide what the order of the outputs and inputs will be, which facilitates layout. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Again, agreed. PALs are restricted in what they can do, but the > > > restrictions don't matter for many real-world applications. Perhaps you > > > want to make an address decoder. Typically you need perhaps 2 or 3 (at > > > most) product terms of some of the address lines. That fits easily into a > > > PAL. > > > > > They offer flexibility beyond the capability of any PROM, but they don't > > replace what a PROM was intended to do. A lot of the special-purpose devices > > have gone by the wayside, e.g. the XOR PALs once popular for counters and the > > like, and the 'L' and 'R' types in favor of the 'V' types. That suggests that > > the PAL family, truly the simplest of the programmable logic devices, has been > > refined considerably. Unfortunately > > > I think this was because they expected PAL's to replace TTL. CPLD's now > do that job. > But then with higher CPU speeds, PALs have been the work horse of > address decoding and glue logic enables. > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 14:02:00 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146783A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Yeah, I wonder what this Deane guy has exactly to get rid of... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: Dave McGuire > > > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. > > -Dave > > On April 15, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Has anyone seen this news posting? > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:55:13 -0400 > From: Bill Gunshannon > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Deane Williams wrote: > > > Hello > > Just wondering is there a reseller/company that will take > > VAXes in trade for Alphas?? I'm talking about 3100s and > > even some 4000/XXX and 36/38XX series VAX. > > And after they get done rolling onthe floor laughing you could put them > on a truck and send them up here. I can at least promise they won't be > taking up space in a landfill. > > bill > -- > > > > --- David A Woyciesjes > > --- C & IS Support Specialist > > --- Yale University Press > > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > > --- (203) 432-0953 > > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST > 2001 > > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > > > > -- > Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" > St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 15 13:55:12 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Motorola EXORterm 155 In-Reply-To: <3CBB1CBB.C08B39E6@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CBB3E30.14776.EACD64E@localhost> > It doesn't look exotic at all, but if anyone wants a peek, I've just put > some pictures up at http://vt100.net/motorola/ > Warning: some pictures in state of undress. Model is certified over 18. Uh Oh. It looks like you need a LOT of help with her. Not only the keyboard, but also the big hole in the back ! The baby is not just a terminal, but rather a development system. the empty cage is supposed to house Exorbus modules, CPU, MEM, I/O, etc. pp. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 14:02:36 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467832@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: Correction. Now that I have one sitting in front of me, I can tell you it's a DEC DEREP. They also had one DELNI and some other AUI concentrators that I saw there. Let me know if anyone wants one, they cost me $5.25 each. From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Mon Apr 15 14:08:49 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question Message-ID: <200204151908.AA11819@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 19:32:05 -0700 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > I should know this, but can't remember, are the Cab Kits for the DEQNA and > DELQA interchangable? In one word, yes. Of course the little label on the panel won't change to reflect the card change on the other side. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 14:08:37 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467838@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: I believe that DEC - er Comapaq (or is it HP?) - will take VAXen for a credit towards an Alpha purchase - that's what my old highschool did with theirs pretty recently. -- Pat On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Has anyone seen this news posting? > > -------- Original Message --------Subject: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALphaDate: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:55:13 -0400From: Bill GunshannonOrganization: University of ScrantonNewsgroups: comp.sys.decReferences: <3Hmt8.2238$GS6.168438@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Deane Williams wrote:> Hello> Just wondering is there a reseller/company that will take> VAXes in trade for Alphas?? I'm talking about 3100s and> even some 4000/XXX and 36/38XX series VAX.And after they get done rolling onthe floor laughing you could put themon a truck and send them up here. I can at least promise they won't betaking up space in a landfill.bill-- > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 15 14:16:42 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665D3@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Has anyone seen this news posting? Yes. Nothing particularly surprising about it. I doubt that anyone would pay very much for VAXen that old. It's probably not worth a reseller's while trying to make a business out of selling them on ebay. The only businesses that might be interested are those that have such a machine in a mission-critical environment and they want one for spares or theirs just blew up and they need a replacement *now*. The only VAX 4000's that might sell would be the very latest -705As and maybe a -700A. VAX 7000's might sell too. Good luck with anything older. Why buy a VAX now when an Alpha can almost certainly do the same job (for most jobs, that is) and run rings around it too? Now my point of view as a hobbyist, is entirely different. I want *both* VAXes and Alphas :-) Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 14:16:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784417@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Isn't Geo Works the only legitamate choice? ISTR, that it's Well, what do you consider legitimate? If you're talking about "piracy" problems, no, minix is not only still available but is also available now under a free-to-use license with source. > been renamed > and is still available with a lot of extra apps. I believe > that a 286 is > now the minimum requirement. Exactly why I'd go with an older version ;) ... but you're right, he could use the newer one, which is now called "New Deal Desktop." (I like "Geo Works" better) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 15 14:20:43 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665D5@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. The original poster may well be. The responder isn't (you only have to read a few of his posts ...) ... he's got the right idea, he wants them for himself ! Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 14:22:45 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784418@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Before we get into arguing about "better" configurations, .. > Does anybody know what the f he's asking about? > Is his machine broken? > Is it working perfectly, but he doesn't know how to "access" it? I assumed he was asking for free system software to use with it since he for some reason couldn't get the original installation of windows to work. Hence my original answer, but you're right, it's incredibly ambiguous. :) > Is it the machine that he's writing with? > Perhaps fixing the shift key on his active machine should be a higher > priority. Indeed. I suppose it could be worse -- his message could have read: PLZ SEND ALL CODES!!!! Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 15 14:26:12 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Berserker Works vintage computer games (fwd) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665D6@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >If you could give me ANY information on who might deal in such >vintage computer games, or even where I might look to try to find >someone, that would be great. Any leads would be much appreciated. >Thank you very much, A few seconds with google produced a possible C64= version (but I'm assuming it's not an entirely legit site ... http://www.c64.com/search.php?com=search_detail&search_year=1982) The next few hits were similar looking sites for Atari machines (just guessing from the hostnames) and an auction with what might be a relevant manual: http://www.bidville.com/listings/index.cfm?category=416&listing=current&sort by=date_desc&group=1 Surely *everyone* knows about search engines? Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 15 14:27:45 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665D7@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Isn't the MicroVAX-I CPU called "KD32"? Sometimes. But then sometimes it's called the KA610. I'm assuming a late-breaking name change (KD32->KA610) caused the confusion in the various docs, but I wasn't there and I don't know anyone who was. Antonio From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 15 14:29:38 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: <15547.2525.943009.960008@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 19:11:57 CEST References: <200204141013.g3EADe804945@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20020415125815.A371324@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15547.2525.943009.960008@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20020415212938.M375840@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.15 19:11 Dave McGuire wrote: > Isn't the MicroVAX-I CPU called "KD32"? Yes and no. I know only KA610, but googling deliveres: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/faq_frames/vax.htm KA610 MicroVAX I, VAXstation I (aka KD32) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 14:43:52 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix In-Reply-To: RE: Vax 4000/300 and Ultrix (Carlini, Antonio) References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665D7@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <15547.11640.827049.252807@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > Isn't the MicroVAX-I CPU called "KD32"? > > Sometimes. But then sometimes it's called > the KA610. I'm assuming a late-breaking > name change (KD32->KA610) caused > the confusion in the various docs, but > I wasn't there and I don't know > anyone who was. Ahh, ok. I'd never heard the KA610 designation before. I'm getting my old VAXstation-I back in a few days; I haven't seen it for nearly ten years. A reunion! :-) I've got a nice Emulex MSCP ESDI controller for it...now I need to find a decent-sized (300MB-1GB) ESDI drive for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 15 14:39:54 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <005e01c1e4b5$fef754c0$baed9a8d@ajp166> Entirely likely, I did get a lot of stuff from MMI over the years and some of the other related companies. I still have and use PALASM and PALASM90. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing >It may, in fact be about the same as my old version. I got mine from MMI back >when THEY were the ones pushing FPGA technology. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:13 AM >Subject: Re: TTL computing > > >> Xact, and older, much older version. I'd get the version number >> but the termcap file is OTL and I'm working on something else >> right now. That and a few bits provided by Tim olmstead to help >> with simulation. He was the one that got me into using them. >> >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:46 PM >> Subject: Re: TTL computing >> >> >> >Do these tools have names, Allison? My old DOS-based tool for FPGA >> >development, from MMI, was called XACT, and that's what was intended for >> the >> >2000-series devices. A later version supported the 3000 series. >> > >> >Which tools do you use for developing both 2000 and 3000-series >> bitstreams? >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "ajp166" >> >To: >> >Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:28 PM >> >Subject: Re: TTL computing >> > >> > >> >> From: Richard Erlacher >> >> >> >> >> >> >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? >> >> >> >> >> >> OLD tools, as in dos based. >> >> >> >> >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) 2064's, >> >> don't >> >> >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series parts >> >> (which, >> >> >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured out a >> >> way to >> >> >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" >> >> software. >> >> >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. >> >> >> >> >> >> Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased out >> >> the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. >> >> >> >I have Synario for the Atmel devices. It's a Windows-based tool based, >> I >> >think, on a tool set originally cooked up by Data I/O. >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 15 15:02:36 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Tinnerman nuts In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467839@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20020415200236.93293.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Woyciesjes wrote: > Carl --- > That's close, but what I'm looking for clips around the rails, not > into the hole, which is round. This looks almost exactly like it, at the > bottom of the page... > "Palnut Multi-Thread U-Nut" > http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/retaining/palunut.html > ..that's it, I think... That doesn't exactly resemble the ones I'm used to seeing - as mentioned, the difference appears to be "bolt" vs "screw" fastening. > > From: Carl Lowenstein > > > > You would be happier with the type of fastener that uses real machine > > screws rather than the sheet-metal type screws that some racks have. > > There is a nice picture of them on the Tinnerman Web site at > > > > < http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/nutretcat.html > I've used plenty of these with modern racks, but since DEC racks have round mounting holes, not square, the rack-mount nuts I have more closely resemble these - http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/utype.html ... but with a u-shaped cutout to snap into place in a round hole. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 15 15:05:55 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OP SYS SETUP In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784418@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > > PLZ SEND ALL CODES!!!! > > Chris > ITYM "PlZ s3nd AlL th3 c0d3Z yUv g0T!!!11111! -3773 hax0r" HTH. HAND! g. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 15 15:09:27 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs In-Reply-To: <1018892162.2523.9.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20020415200927.52402.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alex White wrote: It all started with a comment about chaining multiple PeeCee switcher PSUs together for more amps.. > > > NO!. SMPSUs do not like being run in parallel (unless designed to be > > > used like that). One PSU will end up attempting to supply all the > > > current and the other PSUs may not like having voltages applied to > > > their outputs. > > > > And once the first one drops dead, the next > > most "powerful" one repeats the process. > > Proof by "induction" left as an exercise :-) > > > *giggle* OK, ok, thought it was best to ask.... *laughs manically* Presumably, if one could a) tolerate the voltage drops and b) find massive diodes (many amps for the intended application in an 11/750), it could be done safely. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Mon Apr 15 15:19:26 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board Message-ID: Hello, I'm sorry if this is a double post; I didn't see my message when the digest came out. I put together a site with information and software for the Central Point Deluxe Option Board and related things. If anyone is still looking for the software, documentation, or whatnot, here's your chance. :) http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/dob/ There is also some tidbits at the top that are requests for information on various topics related to the Option Board; I'd appreciate it if anyone with a board would take a second to look it over and see if they can help. Thanks! -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 jabber=nemesis at jabber.icequake.net http://www.icequake.net/~nemesis |= icequake networks, ltd. =|= university of missouri rolla =| |= system administration =|= computer science =| From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 15 15:40:58 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Tinnerman nuts Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146783E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > > --- David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Carl --- > > That's close, but what I'm looking for clips around the rails, not > > into the hole, which is round. This looks almost exactly like it, at the > > bottom of the page... > > "Palnut Multi-Thread U-Nut" > > http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/retaining/palunut.html > > ..that's it, I think... > > That doesn't exactly resemble the ones I'm used to seeing - as mentioned, > the difference appears to be "bolt" vs "screw" fastening. > > > > From: Carl Lowenstein > > > > > > You would be happier with the type of fastener that uses real machine > > > screws rather than the sheet-metal type screws that some racks have. > > > There is a nice picture of them on the Tinnerman Web site at > > > > > > < http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/nutretcat.html > > > I've used plenty of these with modern racks, but since DEC racks have > round mounting holes, not square, the rack-mount nuts I have more > closely resemble these - > > http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/utype.html > > ... but with a u-shaped cutout to snap into place in a round hole. > > -ethan > Not surprised that DEC used different fasteners. Here is a larger pic of what my fasteners looks like... http://www.tt-ec.com/graphics/showcase/retaining/palunutmt.gif ... and it uses Philips-head screws for the mounting. I'll try some of the auto/body shops around here, see if I can get a decent price, otherwise Graybar (down the street from my house) should have something... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Apr 15 15:39:17 2002 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415153627.0348bf58@127.0.0.1> Guys, Anyone have any luck running OS/2 under an emulator on Windows 2000? Just wondering. I tried installing OS/2 Warp 3 on my copy of VMWare 3, and it (VMWare) got mad and won't allow it to install. The web site says VMWare will not (and has no intention of) support OS/2. I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop when I wasn't busy with work...... Thanks! - Matt Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020415/28b9b2b0/attachment.html From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 16:02:21 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: BIE model 4410 Message-ID: Does anyone know what this is or want it? It looks somewhat collectable... I'm asking $25 for it, that's how much it'll cost me for the switches and LEDs if I build my own frontpanel instead of re-use this one's. Here's a description, pictures to appear soon on http://purdueriots.com/imgs/ called bie*.jpg >From the date on the back, it looks to have been purchased in '78 or '79. It's a 6800 based system that I picked up at Purdue Salvage for a couple $$. It has 3 IO cards each with a 6821 on it, a MPU card with a 6800, a ROM card, a front-panel card and some other card with (i believe) RAM of some sort on it (chips are Intel P5101L's 22pin DIPs). Front panel has 24 toggle switches w/LEDs (persumably for the IO), a 6digit 7seg display labeled TIME, 7seg labeled FAULT and a pair of 7seg's labeled STEP. On the right, a 2x6 matrix of pushbuttons labelled 0-9 and a pair labeled "S". Next to that, a 2x6 matrix of PBs with LEDs next to them, labeled: STEP BRANCH STEP NO. PROG. START INST. TIME ABORT MASK OUTPUT ABORT ON/OFF INPUT MASK ABORT STEP NO. INPUT ON/OFF CLEAR STEP Along the bottom, there's a row of switches, left to rigth: POWER: Red push-on push-off square switch AUTO/MANUAL: SPST keyswitch EXAM LOAD/RUN: SPST keyswitch PROGRAM: Set of four 'interlocked' buttons (only one is set at a time) 1-4 START: momentary PB RUN, HOLD: interlocked PB's JOG: momentary PB RESET: FAULT, SYST: momentary PB, ALARM: push-on/push-off ABORT: momentary PB The case is rackmount, about 5U or 6U. On the back: 50pin "Amphenol" scsi-style connector. Connected to three IO cards. Power inlet, outlet, fuse SONALERT beeper. From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 16:04:59 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415153627.0348bf58@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Matthew Sell wrote: > Just wondering. I tried installing OS/2 Warp 3 on my copy of VMWare 3, and > it (VMWare) got mad and won't allow it to install. The web site says VMWare > will not (and has no intention of) support OS/2. > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop when I wasn't > busy with work...... They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find yourself a copy of partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play with OS/2. :) -- Pat From djenner at earthlink.net Mon Apr 15 16:12:08 2002 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415153627.0348bf58@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3CBB4228.743E483B@earthlink.net> Matthew, My experience is that if the VMWare docs don't say it supports an OS, it won't. I've tried several classic x86 OSs to no avail. Generally, you hardly get into an install before there is some fatal error. When I've asked VMWare support, they say: sorry, no bananas. Dave Matthew Sell wrote: > > Guys, > > Anyone have any luck running OS/2 under an emulator on Windows 2000? > > Just wondering. I tried installing OS/2 Warp 3 on my copy of VMWare 3, and it (VMWare) > got mad and won't allow it to install. The web site says VMWare will not (and has no > intention of) support OS/2. > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop when I wasn't busy with > work...... > > Thanks! > > - Matt > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Mon Apr 15 16:19:29 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Motorola EXORterm 155 References: <3CBB3E30.14776.EACD64E@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBB43E1.B9EAFE01@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Hans Franke wrote: > > Uh Oh. It looks like you need a LOT of help with her. > Not only the keyboard, but also the big hole in the back ! > > The baby is not just a terminal, but rather a development > system. the empty cage is supposed to house Exorbus modules, > CPU, MEM, I/O, etc. pp. Heheheh. I had noticed the hole, and that explains the hefty power supply, but it appears that this one has only ever been used as a terminal. That is surprising in itself, as we usually customise kit and embed it in bigger systems; I half expected to find our own boards in the back. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 15 16:35:05 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: Motorola EXORterm 155 In-Reply-To: <3CBB43E1.B9EAFE01@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <3CBB63A9.28347.F3F383E@localhost> > > Uh Oh. It looks like you need a LOT of help with her. > > Not only the keyboard, but also the big hole in the back ! > > The baby is not just a terminal, but rather a development > > system. the empty cage is supposed to house Exorbus modules, > > CPU, MEM, I/O, etc. pp. > Heheheh. I had noticed the hole, and that explains the hefty power > supply, but it appears that this one has only ever been used as a > terminal. That is surprising in itself, as we usually customise kit and > embed it in bigger systems; I half expected to find our own boards in > the back. Now, that's unusual - looks like she has been a pure luxury girl. Her Shugar Daddy must have realy liked her to spend so much money just for a terminal. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 15 16:36:35 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178441E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop > when I wasn't > > busy with work...... > They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to > partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find > yourself a copy of > partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play > with OS/2. :) Will BOCHS run on that version of windows? You may have a chance with that too -- I've heard that it would boot OS/2, but that's second hand information. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rmurphy at itm-inst.com Mon Apr 15 16:32:13 2002 From: rmurphy at itm-inst.com (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:26 2005 Subject: DEC AUI stuff (was re: A2065 Ethernet) In-Reply-To: <20020415045332.21247.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020413114526.00a601d0@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415170710.00a84c40@mail.itm-inst.com> At 09:53 PM 4/14/02 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >--- Rick Murphy wrote: > > At 09:52 AM 4/13/02 -0500, pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > >Looks like I'm getting my DEC 5-letter scrambles confused. > >Easy to do. > > > That's the DEBNT. (10 Megabit ethernet bridge). > >I'm pretty sure the two VAX-BI 10Mbps ethernet cards are the DEBNI >and the DEBNT. The "B" this case being the distinguishing letter. > >Could be wrong, though. Ethan, you're probably right - that's what I get for trying to do this from memory. The LanBridge 100 is a DEBET, not a DEBNT. (The LanBridge 200 is the DEBAM). I think both of these predate the BI bus, which explains the "DEB" prefix. -Rick From PasserM at umkc.edu Mon Apr 15 16:54:10 2002 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael W.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze Message-ID: VMware stopped supporting OS/2 (it was supported in a 2.x beta) around the time they started selling VMWare bundled with Windows. They claim there's no connection and that support was removed because of lack of demand. Insert conspiracy theory about a deal with Microsoft to get a sweet OEM license deal in return for killing OS/2 support here. From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Apr 15 17:16:39 2002 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178441E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415171613.0348c588@127.0.0.1> Chris, I'm going to try BOCHS. I'll report what I find...... - Matt At 04:36 PM 4/15/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > > > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop > > when I wasn't > > > busy with work...... > > > They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to > > partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find > > yourself a copy of > > partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play > > with OS/2. :) > >Will BOCHS run on that version of windows? You may have a chance with >that too -- I've heard that it would boot OS/2, but that's second hand >information. > >Chris > > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' > Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020415/cf6694a7/attachment.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 15 17:53:53 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415153627.0348bf58@127.0.0.1> from Matthew Sell at "Apr 15, 2002 03:39:17 pm" Message-ID: <200204152253.PAA07469@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Anyone have any luck running OS/2 under an emulator on Windows 2000? VirtualPC supports OS/2 (and also runs under OS/2). Pretty expensive though at 235 Euro (OS/2 version) or 285 Euro (Windows version). http://www.innotek.de/products/virtualpc/virtualpcgeneral.html Eric From norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com Mon Apr 15 17:56:38 2002 From: norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com (norm-classiccmp@docnorm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <1018893035.2523.23.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: The delay in propagating a message is due to Sendmail, not solely to the mailing list software, although the mailing list software can take steps to avoid the problem in Sendmail. The issue is: if Sendmail is given a list of N addresses, it spins off one process that then delivers to the appropriate MX addresses one by one. Majordomo just makes one huge list. So, if you're at the end of the list, your delay is long. Some other MLM's (maybe MailMan is one of them -- I don't know) make lots of shorter lists, so the deliveries happen more in parallel. If that's the case, MailMan will improve your delivery times. Norm > > > > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > > > > messages that I post to this list? > > > > > > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > > > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > > > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. > > > > > It probably is Yale's fault, but what makes that hard to believe is > > the fact the this list is the _only_ e-mail (list or person-to-person) that > > has such a delay... Oh well, such is technology... :) > All lists that I am/have been on that email crosses the pond and back > have such a delay. Most of the UK-based ones are quicker, which is > weird considering one can ping sites in the US with less than a hour's > total trip time... From ngallaher at deepthought.org Mon Apr 15 18:18:03 2002 From: ngallaher at deepthought.org (Nathan Gallaher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: HP 13215A (Power supply) Info Needed Message-ID: I recently acquired an HP 13215A PS (power supply for a 7900A Disk Drive) from the local university (they junked an entire system and sold it for scrap piecewise). I can see that one of the terminal strips is labled with the output voltages (I assume) but other than that, I have no idea what this unit provides or requires. I would like to use this PS to power a FC array I have, but I don't know how to energize the PS, nor do I know the current ratings. Thanks, Nathan Gallaher From meltie at myrealbox.com Mon Apr 15 18:24:56 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs In-Reply-To: <20020415200927.52402.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020415200927.52402.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1018913099.2582.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Mon, 2002-04-15 at 21:09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Alex White wrote: > It all started with a comment about chaining multiple PeeCee switcher > PSUs together for more amps.. > > > > > NO!. SMPSUs do not like being run in parallel (unless designed to be > > > > used like that). One PSU will end up attempting to supply all the > > > > current and the other PSUs may not like having voltages applied to > > > > their outputs. > > > > > > And once the first one drops dead, the next > > > most "powerful" one repeats the process. > > > Proof by "induction" left as an exercise :-) > > > > > *giggle* OK, ok, thought it was best to ask.... *laughs manically* > > Presumably, if one could a) tolerate the voltage drops and b) find massive > diodes (many amps for the intended application in an 11/750), it could be > done safely. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I thought this, then laughed at the size of the diodes. 135A total for the 5v, 85A for the 2.5v lines... Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Apr 15 18:37:02 2002 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178441E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415183625.03487748@127.0.0.1> BOCHS won't even start on my Win2K laptop. Blows immediately with illegal opcodes. Oh well.... moving on...... - Matt At 04:36 PM 4/15/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > > > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop > > when I wasn't > > > busy with work...... > > > They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to > > partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find > > yourself a copy of > > partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play > > with OS/2. :) > >Will BOCHS run on that version of windows? You may have a chance with >that too -- I've heard that it would boot OS/2, but that's second hand >information. > >Chris > > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' > Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020415/5f0d2721/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 18:37:47 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <005e01c1e4b5$fef754c0$baed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001601c1e4d6$8cb39c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well Palasm4 v1.5 is the last version of that, and I use it all the time. It was still a freebie on the LATTICE website last time I looked. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Entirely likely, I did get a lot of stuff from MMI over the years > and some of the other related companies. I still have and use > PALASM and PALASM90. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:10 PM > Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > >It may, in fact be about the same as my old version. I got mine from > MMI back > >when THEY were the ones pushing FPGA technology. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:13 AM > >Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > > >> Xact, and older, much older version. I'd get the version number > >> but the termcap file is OTL and I'm working on something else > >> right now. That and a few bits provided by Tim olmstead to help > >> with simulation. He was the one that got me into using them. > >> > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Richard Erlacher > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: TTL computing > >> > >> > >> >Do these tools have names, Allison? My old DOS-based tool for FPGA > >> >development, from MMI, was called XACT, and that's what was intended > for > >> the > >> >2000-series devices. A later version supported the 3000 series. > >> > > >> >Which tools do you use for developing both 2000 and 3000-series > >> bitstreams? > >> > > >> >Dick > >> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: "ajp166" > >> >To: > >> >Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:28 PM > >> >Subject: Re: TTL computing > >> > > >> > > >> >> From: Richard Erlacher > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> OLD tools, as in dos based. > >> >> > >> >> >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) > 2064's, > >> >> don't > >> >> >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series > parts > >> >> (which, > >> >> >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured > out a > >> >> way to > >> >> >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" > >> >> software. > >> >> >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased > out > >> >> the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. > >> >> > >> >I have Synario for the Atmel devices. It's a Windows-based tool > based, > >> I > >> >think, on a tool set originally cooked up by Data I/O. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 15 18:41:12 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: Tinnerman nuts In-Reply-To: David Woyciesjes "RE: Tinnerman nuts" (Apr 15, 14:24) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467839@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <10204160041.ZM8969@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 15, 14:24, David Woyciesjes wrote: > That's close, but what I'm looking for clips around the rails, not > into the hole, which is round. This looks almost exactly like it, at the > bottom of the page... > "Palnut Multi-Thread U-Nut" > http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/retaining/palunut.html DEC (and Sun, etc) used something like that but with a real nut welded (?) onto the clip, like the diagrams at the top of http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/utypenrcat.html I've always known the ones DEC used simply as Tinnerman nuts. The other type used by DEC is like a strip of spring steel wrapped round the nut and then formed into a springy clip that clips round the rails (sorry, can't find a picture). The correct size for rack screws is 10-32 UNF, rather smaller than any of the ones on the PalNut page. > > From: Carl Lowenstein > > > > You would be happier with the type of fastener that uses real machine > > screws rather than the sheet-metal type screws that some racks have. > > There is a nice picture of them on the Tinnerman Web site at > > > > < http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/nutretcat.html > The picture of a retainer nut (which happens to be made by Tinnerman in this case, but isn't what I'd call a "Tinnerman nut") at the top of that page is of what everyone over here calls a "caged nut". They're used on european racks, which have square holes not round ones; the normal size takes an M6 screw (DEC screwss are 10-32 UNF, which is very similar to M5). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 19:32:28 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <15546.63202.610835.243682@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > TLC it performs flawlessly). The water doesn't seem to do any harm at > all, even with long-term exposure...it's the crap that the water can > carry into the equipment, and sometimes corrosion later on. So what can you do with accumulated mineal salts around component legs? Looks like tin "rust". I tried firm-but-gentle with a stiff toothbrush, and didn't get anywhere. I have that MV3100-90 board that I think just needs the corrosion, which I suspect is conductive, removed. Doc > > -Dave > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 15 19:45:27 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change References: <3CBB206E.28794.E3898DB@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBB7427.C92096F5@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans Franke wrote: > > > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > > messages that I post to this list? > > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. about 15 minutes to a hour. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 15 19:53:44 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <00bb01c1e4e1$660c9640$baed9a8d@ajp166> Yep, and old and well known program. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:06 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing >Well Palasm4 v1.5 is the last version of that, and I use it all the time. It >was still a freebie on the LATTICE website last time I looked. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:39 PM >Subject: Re: TTL computing > > >> Entirely likely, I did get a lot of stuff from MMI over the years >> and some of the other related companies. I still have and use >> PALASM and PALASM90. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:10 PM >> Subject: Re: TTL computing >> >> >> >It may, in fact be about the same as my old version. I got mine from >> MMI back >> >when THEY were the ones pushing FPGA technology. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "ajp166" >> >To: >> >Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:13 AM >> >Subject: Re: TTL computing >> > >> > >> >> Xact, and older, much older version. I'd get the version number >> >> but the termcap file is OTL and I'm working on something else >> >> right now. That and a few bits provided by Tim olmstead to help >> >> with simulation. He was the one that got me into using them. >> >> >> >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Richard Erlacher >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >> Date: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:46 PM >> >> Subject: Re: TTL computing >> >> >> >> >> >> >Do these tools have names, Allison? My old DOS-based tool for FPGA >> >> >development, from MMI, was called XACT, and that's what was intended >> for >> >> the >> >> >2000-series devices. A later version supported the 3000 series. >> >> > >> >> >Which tools do you use for developing both 2000 and 3000-series >> >> bitstreams? >> >> > >> >> >Dick >> >> > >> >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >> >From: "ajp166" >> >> >To: >> >> >Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:28 PM >> >> >Subject: Re: TTL computing >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> From: Richard Erlacher >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Which tools are you referring to, Allison? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> OLD tools, as in dos based. >> >> >> >> >> >> >I've found that the tools I once used with the old (pre-1990) >> 2064's, >> >> >> don't >> >> >> >work with the 3000-series, and, though I have some 3000-series >> parts >> >> >> (which, >> >> >> >back when I bought them, cost about $200 each) I've not figured >> out a >> >> >> way to >> >> >> >program them using the old XACT or the more recent "Foundation" >> >> >> software. >> >> >> >They clearly are no longer supported with current software. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Neither have I. I also have the Synario package too. They phased >> out >> >> >> the tools for the 2064s a long time ago. >> >> >> >> >> >I have Synario for the Atmel devices. It's a Windows-based tool >> based, >> >> I >> >> >think, on a tool set originally cooked up by Data I/O. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 20:10:47 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: <200204151908.AA11819@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Carl Lowenstein wrote: > > I should know this, but can't remember, are the Cab Kits for the DEQNA and > > DELQA interchangable? > > In one word, yes. Of course the little label on the panel won't change > to reflect the card change on the other side. Even though the pinouts are quite different? Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 15 20:09:02 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change References: <3CBB206E.28794.E3898DB@localhost> <3CBB7427.C92096F5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CBB79AE.DF7D069A@jetnet.ab.ca> Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > Would this improve the ~1 hour time it takes for me to see the > > > messages that I post to this list? > > > > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. > about 15 minutes to a hour. > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html Sent 6:45 pm local time. Got back 7:08 pm local time. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 20:12:07 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: Re: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? (Doc) References: <15546.63202.610835.243682@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15547.31335.333953.985107@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Doc wrote: > > TLC it performs flawlessly). The water doesn't seem to do any harm at > > all, even with long-term exposure...it's the crap that the water can > > carry into the equipment, and sometimes corrosion later on. > > So what can you do with accumulated mineal salts around component > legs? Looks like tin "rust". I tried firm-but-gentle with a stiff > toothbrush, and didn't get anywhere. > I have that MV3100-90 board that I think just needs the corrosion, > which I suspect is conductive, removed. I use Alconox, a trisodium phosphate based cleaner that's very effective. I have a big pile of acid brushes...those little pencil-sized brushes that go for about a dime a dozen. I think they came from MSC, but I don't recall for sure. Their bristles are about 1" long by default, but you can easily trim them down to make them much stiffer. They're good for scrubbing stuff like that...similar to a toothbrush but easier to deal with. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 20:17:00 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: Re: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question (Doc) References: <200204151908.AA11819@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: <15547.31628.238706.280385@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Doc wrote: > > > I should know this, but can't remember, are the Cab Kits for the DEQNA and > > > DELQA interchangable? > > > > In one word, yes. Of course the little label on the panel won't change > > to reflect the card change on the other side. > > Even though the pinouts are quite different? I have used unmodified DEQNA cab kits on DELQAs with good results...how do the pinouts differ? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 20:23:45 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: list server computer hardware will change In-Reply-To: <3CBB206E.28794.E3898DB@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > I'm not shure if this is originated in the Mailinglist server. > Over here I have some 20 seconds to 3 minutes (a few times up > to 10 minutes). Looks more like your providers infrastructure. It takes a long time for my messages to appear too. And messages appear much more quickly on other mailing lists. And I don't use my provider's mail infrastructure. Peace... Sridhar From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 15 16:28:03 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <004f01c1e4ad$7408e660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020416012545.DRDC22105.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Yes, and they save on space and not only because of their size. You don't > have to route unused inputs to Vcc or Gnd, and you don't have to accomodate > the device pinout so much, since YOU get to decide what the order of the > outputs and inputs will be, which facilitates layout. > > Dick Snip, > > > > > I think this was because they expected PAL's to replace TTL. CPLD's now > > do that job. > > But then with higher CPU speeds, PALs have been the work horse of > > address decoding and glue logic enables. > > -- > > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * Well, I find PAL distasteful since these runs hot and some of them had death spiral finally fries themselves to death.. I see that fequently on 386 boards and ati wonder cga. So hot that 6 PALs made brown spots on that ati wonder card then card dies, I see that frequently on many of those. :-P And if PAL dies, not possible to repair yet I knew some can be pulled to make copies if maker didn't burn fuse to protect contents. Wrong way to discharging CRT in compact Macs fries two of 6 PALs. Same PAL parts in 128, 512 and Plus. I'm glad PALs went away when late 386 and late 486 boards came. Still, knew some other makers are still using PALs. Cheers, Wizard From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 20:25:06 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: PDP-11/93 Console Pinout and model rev. In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784415@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Amazingly enough, you can do this with the *nix mkisofs program by > > specifying the files to burn on its command line. The order that you > > type them is the order that they get put into the ISO image IIRC. > > > Amazing how easy stuff becomes when you drop Windoze :) > > I _suppose_ you could port mkisofs to NT if you like... ;) It's already been done. Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Mon Apr 15 20:30:01 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 15, 2002 08:10:47 PM Message-ID: <200204160130.g3G1U1F05862@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > I should know this, but can't remember, are the Cab Kits for the DEQNA and > > > DELQA interchangable? > > > > In one word, yes. Of course the little label on the panel won't change > > to reflect the card change on the other side. > > Even though the pinouts are quite different? They are? I'm pretty sure I used a DEQNA cabinet kit with a DELQA on a MVII for years. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 15 20:41:02 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <15546.63202.610835.243682@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415183935.00a82410@mail.zipcon.net> At 11:50 AM 4/15/02 -0400, you wrote: > Actually it works quite well, at *low* temperatures. Electric ovens >work best for this since gas ovens produce tons of moisture. Trouble >is, many ovens can't go low enough (~200F or so). > > I've had good results from sitting stuff atop floor-mounted heater >vents in the winter. This obviously works best when the equipment in >question has air vents. I've used purified water to rinse mineral deposits off, or extra pure alcohol followed by purified water, then used a hairdryer on no heat, or low/very low heating with much success... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 15 20:40:00 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: PLZ SEND ALL CODES!!!! (was: OP SYS SETUP In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784418@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > I assumed he was asking for free system software to use with it > since he for some reason couldn't get the original installation of > windows to work. Hence my original answer, but you're right, it's > incredibly ambiguous. :) He'll need the information about how to get at the CMOS SETP program (in firmware :-) But that's probly not what he means by WIN OP SYS SETUP For DOS usage, he should get the MODE.COM (the main difference between Compaq MS-DOS and generic) For Windoze 95, etc. he will need Compaq's special drivers for their video, sound, etc. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 15 20:47:31 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: <15547.6337.135179.650940@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 15, 2 02:15:29 pm" Message-ID: <200204160147.SAA20116@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. .sig dibs! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 15 20:52:21 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <15547.3003.978685.836236@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 15, 2 01:19:55 pm" Message-ID: <200204160152.SAA23902@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably > > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > Hmm, can I place an advance order? I do hope you're referring to the *computer*. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) --------------------- From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 20:50:51 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415153627.0348bf58@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Matthew Sell wrote: > Anyone have any luck running OS/2 under an emulator on Windows 2000? > > Just wondering. I tried installing OS/2 Warp 3 on my copy of VMWare 3, > and it (VMWare) got mad and won't allow it to install. The web site > says VMWare will not (and has no intention of) support OS/2. > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop when I > wasn't busy with work...... Tried Plex86? It might work. And it's open source. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 18:56:51 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <008001c1e41d$6a701780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 07:32:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/d97466fa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 19:23:45 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <000001c1e42c$3be76940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 08:45:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/d27acafc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 19:40:08 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <000101c1e42c$3c4c1e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 08:57:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/893434b8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 19:59:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <001901c1e433$e5bcb860$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 2 10:13:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/217adff3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 20:39:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002201c1e44d$65ba2fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 15, 2 01:16:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 14846 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/17b8f7b3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 20:56:45 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <003b01c1e4ac$762f3e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 15, 2 12:36:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/271eca19/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 21:01:23 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs In-Reply-To: <20020415200927.52402.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 15, 2 01:09:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/fc3e88cc/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 21:27:21 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! (Cameron Kaiser) References: <15547.3003.978685.836236@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200204160152.SAA23902@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <15547.35849.962536.771812@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably > > > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > > > Hmm, can I place an advance order? > > I do hope you're referring to the *computer*. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 21:27:43 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: Re: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha (Cameron Kaiser) References: <15547.6337.135179.650940@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200204160147.SAA20116@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <15547.35871.370219.486804@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. > > .sig dibs! Heh, go for it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Hush and eat your vegetables, young lady!" St. Petersburg, FL - Mr. Bill From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 21:30:56 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <20020416012545.DRDC22105.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <001401c1e4ee$bd599a80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just WHAT have you been smoking? They haven't made bipolar PALs in ages, since the CMOS parts are not only easier on power/heat, but are more reliable, cheaper, and reprogrammable as well. If the makers of the low-cost devices we all use had intended that you repair them when they break, they would have provided documentation. In a few years, when you buy a computer it will have a circuit board with a splatter of epoxy in the middle, the way the cheapo game cartridges were made a few years back, and that's all that there'll be on the board. Of course there'll be no place for expansion boards, so the box may be welded shut. You're certainly free to be happy about whatever you like. It's true that PALs (SPLD's) are an obsolete technology, seeing an occasional application among hobbyists the way TTL devices did a decade ago. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Yes, and they save on space and not only because of their size. You don't > > have to route unused inputs to Vcc or Gnd, and you don't have to accomodate > > the device pinout so much, since YOU get to decide what the order of the > > outputs and inputs will be, which facilitates layout. > > > > Dick > > Snip, > > > > > > > > I think this was because they expected PAL's to replace TTL. CPLD's now > > > do that job. > > > But then with higher CPU speeds, PALs have been the work horse of > > > address decoding and glue logic enables. > > > -- > > > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > > Well, I find PAL distasteful since these runs hot and some of them > had death spiral finally fries themselves to death.. I see that > fequently on 386 boards and ati wonder cga. > > So hot that 6 PALs made brown spots on that ati wonder card then > card dies, I see that frequently on many of those. :-P > > And if PAL dies, not possible to repair yet I knew some can be > pulled to make copies if maker didn't burn fuse to protect contents. > Wrong way to discharging CRT in compact Macs fries two of 6 PALs. > Same PAL parts in 128, 512 and Plus. > > I'm glad PALs went away when late 386 and late 486 boards came. > Still, knew some other makers are still using PALs. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 21:37:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <001c01c1e4ef$a5ca4da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's a pin on those old-timers that enables the EPROM during download, then disables the EPROM when the download is complete, so you then recover the use of the pins. If you had a problem with the EPROM connections, as I said, the XILINX folks provided an app-note that illustrated a circuit which took the data from the EPROM and serialized it, thereby minimizing the connections to the FPGA. It wasn't necessary, except on the smaller devices, since most of their pins would be used in the EPROM hookup. With the smaller devices, it wasn't unusual to share an EPROM between a local microcontroller and the FPGA, and have the microcontroller feed the FPGA, as you say, pretending to be one of the serial EEPROMs. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > Won't these parts work with ordinary EPROMS? That's what we used back when I > > was routinely using XILINX parts. It's possible to build a PAL (though the > > For the Xilinx RAM-based FPGAs (3000 and 4000 series) that I used some 5 > years ago, the actual method of getting the configuration data into the > device was documented in the data sheet. The meaning of that data wasn't, > of course (meaning you had to use their design tools :-(), but you could > load the device from any logic circuit you wanted. > > IIRC, at least with the 3000 series you could connect up a normal > parallel EPROM (like a 27256 or something). It took a fair number of I/O > pins to do this (which is a good reason for not doing it!), but it was > possible. AFAIK you didn't need any other parts, just the FPGA and the EPROM. > > Or you could use a microcontroller to read out a normal EPROM (or E2PROM, > or...) and turn it into the right type of serial bitstream. And pretend > to be one of the special serial PROMs. Again, the timing for the > bitstream was documented in the datasheet, even if the meaning of the > bits wasn't. > > -tony > > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 21:38:19 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178441E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop > > when I wasn't > > > busy with work...... > > > They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to > > partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find > > yourself a copy of > > partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play > > with OS/2. :) > > Will BOCHS run on that version of windows? You may have a chance with > that too -- I've heard that it would boot OS/2, but that's second hand > information. Bochs is not a good idea on that machine. Bochs is meant to run on non-PC's and it's a complete PC emulator. What he wants is Plex86, which is the system virtualization stuff from Bochs, with none of the PC emulation stuff. He already has all that. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 21:41:24 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415171613.0348c588@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Matthew Sell wrote: > Chris, > > > I'm going to try BOCHS. I'll report what I find...... Use Plex86. It's written by the same people as Bochs, but it's orders of magnitude faster, because it doesn't need to emulate a PC, since you're already running on a PC. Peace... Sridhar > > > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop > > > when I wasn't > > > > busy with work...... > > > > > They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to > > > partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find > > > yourself a copy of > > > partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play > > > with OS/2. :) > > > >Will BOCHS run on that version of windows? You may have a chance with > >that too -- I've heard that it would boot OS/2, but that's second hand > >information. > > > >Chris > > > > > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' > >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > >' > > > > > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 15 21:43:36 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <3CBB8FD8.7E700DF7@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > However, there's also a difference between 'not suporting' and > 'preventing others from supporting'. I don't expect Philips or Intel to > sell me an 8051 cross-assembler for linux (or for RT11, or...). But I can > take the published datasheets and write an assembler. The information is > there (opcode map, etc). But in the case of PLDs not only will the > manufacturers not sell me software for my choice of OS (reasonable), they > also won't provide the information to let me (or others) write that software. > I may go back to TTL ( but not sure yet ) because too the only programing platform is windows ver ??? and 5 years down the road when I want to do a upgrade, the software to program my computer is 1) not around 2) will not run on my machine 3) require 1253 meg of crap to run, 4) will need a new license. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 21:48:07 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Apr 15, 2002 08:30:01 PM Message-ID: <200204160248.g3G2m7n20364@shell1.aracnet.com> > They are? I'm pretty sure I used a DEQNA cabinet kit with a > DELQA on a MVII for years. It would also help explain why I've got 2 DELQA's without cab kits, and an extra DEQNA Cab Kit. On a positive note, the VAXstation II/RC I stole the DEQNA from needs a DELQA if I ever get it running and the PDP-11/23+ can make do with a DEQNA. Zane From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Apr 15 21:58:15 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E24@BUSH02> but it won't help with the current distribution problem. The PSU who's output after the diode drop is the highest voltage will end up sourcing all the current. Not what you really want. -tony Not quite, the forward volt drop of the diodes will even out the current between the individual units. Even shottky barrier diodes have a vf of >0.4v at the curents that would be involved. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 21:59:35 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question Message-ID: Has anyone ever gotten a "TK50-Z" in a 'TK SCSI' encosure to work with any 'normal' scsi controller on a PC or something? I picked one up for a few $$ today, and just realized the enclosure has a 220V power supply... Also, how do I get the disk out of an RRD40 without a computer attached? If anyone's interested in this stuff, reply off-list: DEC RRD40. I don't have anything but the drive and whatever is stuck in the drive with the CD in it. In a 110V external enclosure. DEC TK50-Z. In a 220V external enclosure (IEC power connection) DEC RZ55. In a 220V external enclosure (same one as TK50-Z) DEC DEBET. 110V/220V switchable ethernet 'bridge' I think. PowerMac 6100/66 PowerMac 7100/66 PowerMac 7100/66 'chipped' to 80MHz - i don't know the specs off the top of my head for these, will have to look. mostly 250M-500M hard drive and 8M-24M of RAM Quadra 660av Quadra 610 Mac IIci Mac SE Sun SparcStation 1 - 40M RAM, 240M HDD, CG3 video Sun Sparc IPC - 40M RAM (IIRC, will check), NO HDD, builtin video 2xNCD 19r XTerm, upgraded memory. One with AUI/10B2, one with AUI/10BT. 2xIBM 3191 terminal (going on EBay if I cant find a buyer this time around) 2xApple //e, one with 128K and DuoDisk, one with 64K and single Disk ][. -- Pat From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 22:04:05 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > TLC it performs flawlessly). The water doesn't seem to do any harm at > > all, even with long-term exposure...it's the crap that the water can > > carry into the equipment, and sometimes corrosion later on. > > So what can you do with accumulated mineal salts around component > legs? Looks like tin "rust". I tried firm-but-gentle with a stiff > toothbrush, and didn't get anywhere. > I have that MV3100-90 board that I think just needs the corrosion, > which I suspect is conductive, removed. The salts that are the endproduct of corrosion usually aren't conductors, but that wouldn't prevent them from interfering with the operation of the board. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 22:07:52 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415183935.00a82410@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Geoff Reed wrote: > I've used purified water to rinse mineral deposits off, or extra pure > alcohol followed by purified water, then used a hairdryer on no heat, or > low/very low heating with much success... I think water followed by alcohol would be better than alcohol followed by water, given alcohol's tendency to dry faster. You rinse the water off with alcohol, and then shake dry. That's why a lot of time in the chemistry lab, you'll rinse your filter cake with acetone. Rinses all the water out, then the acetone dries quickly. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 22:14:00 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: <200204160147.SAA20116@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. > > .sig dibs! My current favorite .sig is a kid on the local LUG list: "Go away or I will turn you into a very small shell script." Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 22:16:07 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: <15547.31628.238706.280385@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > In one word, yes. Of course the little label on the panel won't change > > > to reflect the card change on the other side. > > > > Even though the pinouts are quite different? > > I have used unmodified DEQNA cab kits on DELQAs with good > results...how do the pinouts differ? I've got one of each right here, and the DELQA has 2 or 3 more wires, plus the ground wire is different altogether. I'll post the pinouts tomorrow night. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 22:22:59 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:27 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question In-Reply-To: from "pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com" at Apr 15, 2002 09:59:35 PM Message-ID: <200204160322.g3G3Mx621685@shell1.aracnet.com> > Has anyone ever gotten a "TK50-Z" in a 'TK SCSI' encosure to work with any > 'normal' scsi controller on a PC or something? I picked one up for a few > $$ today, and just realized the enclosure has a 220V power supply... Yes, but not me. IIRC, it needs to be a TK50Z-GA. Keep in mind the drive is only 95MB, so is really only of use if you've got DEC HW. > Also, how do I get the disk out of an RRD40 without a computer attached? Um, unless you've got the 'clear sleave', I don't think you're going to get the disk out without demolishing the drive! As long as that's the drive I'm thinking of it uses a funky 'pincer' holder for the CD, with a clear 'sleave' around it to make up the 'caddy'. You stick the caddy in the drive and pull the 'sleave' back out. To remove the CD, you stick the 'sleave' in and pull out the whole caddy. (hopefully that makes sense) > DEC RRD40. I don't have anything but the drive and whatever is stuck in > the drive with the CD in it. In a 110V external enclosure. Any idea if this is a SCSI drive? There are two varients of this, one is SCSI, the other connects to a Q-Bus controller. Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 15 22:39:05 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <00bb01c1e4e1$660c9640$baed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Well, I am not going to get into this fight, but now that we are talking about it... I have the following for sale - basically for token amounts plus shipping, to keep them from the scrappers: 1) Xilinx XACT 2000/3000 Developement System Ref Guide, still sealed in plastic. It is about 2 inches thick, in that small ring binder format. 2) Tube of (17) Altera EP610SC-15 surface mount chips, unused and unprogrammed (so I was told). Any interest? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 15 22:39:16 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: HP 13215A (Power supply) Info Needed References: Message-ID: <008701c1e4f8$498eeb50$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have a few 13215A power supplies, one of them in active use. I also have complete schematics and maintenance manuals for them. I will dig up the information for you tomorrow and send it to you. BTW - any chance the 7900A disc drive that it was attached to is available?? Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Gallaher" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 6:18 PM Subject: HP 13215A (Power supply) Info Needed > I recently acquired an HP 13215A PS (power supply for a 7900A Disk > Drive) from the local university (they junked > an entire system and sold it for scrap piecewise). I can see that one > of the terminal strips is labled with the output voltages (I assume) but > other than that, I have no idea what this unit provides or requires. I > would like to use this PS to power a FC array I have, but I don't know how > to energize the PS, nor do I know the current ratings. > > Thanks, > Nathan Gallaher > > > From dittman at dittman.net Mon Apr 15 22:38:10 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: DELQA/DEQNA Cab Kits question In-Reply-To: <200204160248.g3G2m7n20364@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 15, 2002 07:48:07 PM Message-ID: <200204160338.g3G3cAi06541@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > They are? I'm pretty sure I used a DEQNA cabinet kit with a > > DELQA on a MVII for years. > > It would also help explain why I've got 2 DELQA's without cab kits, and an > extra DEQNA Cab Kit. The DELQA in the MVII (actually, there were two) was an upgrade from a DEQNA, and all that was shipped was the board. This was during the discounted DEQNA->DELQA upgrade DEC had during the release of VMS V5.x that desupported the DEQNA. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Mon Apr 15 22:40:31 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: simh V2.9 Message-ID: <200204160340.g3G3eVJ06555@narnia.int.dittman.net> I just downloaded and built simh V2.9. I was able to boot the RA90 disk image I created for Charon-VAX. No timeout, full source, with Ethernet support coming. There's supposed to be a couple of bugs, but I haven't found them yet. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 22:44:56 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. > > > > .sig dibs! > > My current favorite .sig is a kid on the local LUG list: > > "Go away or I will turn you into a very small shell script." > > Doc Freshmeat.net sells a shirt that says that, which I own one of. :) -- Pat From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 22:49:36 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > The salts that are the endproduct of corrosion usually aren't conductors, > but that wouldn't prevent them from interfering with the operation of the > board. Well, something's interfering. I get a persistent B_CACHE failure on startup. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 15 22:51:07 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <002201c1e4f9$f09e9980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 6:40 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > tackle the problem. Today, publishing the programming algorithms would > > > > > > Did I say they had to? Those who had the money could buy a programmer. > > > Those who had the time could build one. Same choice as with so many other > > > things. > > > > > > > produce a service headache for them, so they don't do it. > > > > > > I've heard this bogus argument so many times.... Plenty of > > > microcontroller manufacturers publish the programming algorithms for the > > > EPROM or flash ROM inside their chips, and presumably it doesn't cause > > > them too many problems... > > > > > I don't think it's bogus. There's a big difference between telling the user, > > in the datasheet, how to program his device and in fielding a phone-call > > regarding that matter. The mfg's know how many phone calls they have to deal > > Fine, so don't offer support on that. Make it very clear that if you want > to make your own programmer then you are very much on your own. > > FWIW, I've only once phoned up a technical support line for a chip. The > so-called support consisted of reading the datasheet to me. The support > droid was incapable of answering questions about the device. Since I'd > already read the datasheet, this was not exactly useful. > > > with in connection with that sort of question and it didn't take them long to > > figure it out. > > > > Intel published the spec's on how to program their programmable devices > > including MCU's. The didn't however, publish the programming specs for their > > PLD's. > > Why the difference? Why are PLDs a support nightmare if MCUs are not? As > far as I can see the actual process of programming (say) an EPROM cell is > the same whether that cell is in an EPROM, an EPROM-based microcontroller > (like an 8751) or an EPROM-based PLD. > > > > > > > In any case, all the manufacturers would have to do is put one more > > > location in the chip that can only be programmed on an 'approved' device > > > programmer. This location has no effect on the operation of the chip, but > > > it can be read out. The method of programming it is the one thing left > > > out of the published spec. If somebody is having problems with the chip > > > then unless they have managed to program this bit (== are using a > > > commercial, approved, programmer) then they get no support [1]. And if > > > you claim that misprogramming the chip could damage it so this location > > > could not be inspected, well, true, but then again, applying mains to the > > > Vcc pin will do that anyway! > > > > > This would cost 'em millions, and they save those millions simply by ignoring > > They put in plenty of other features that are not too important, though. > (like the manufacturer-code byte -- people using them for production > presumably buy entire batches from one manufactuter, people using them > for prototyping should be able to read the logo on the package!). > > > anybody too cheap to buy a programmer. Those parties aren't likely to help > > their sales numbers much anyway. > > Hmmm.. There's at least one IC manufacturer who did support hobbyists > (by giving away samples, releasing the programming spec, etc) and then > discovered they did rather well when said hobbyists recomended those > chips for commercial applications. It was basically a form for cheap/free > advertising. > Microcontroller makers seem to provide some simple means for programming their devices in all cases. Those means are often quite limited, but generally quite adequate for most purposes. > > > > [1] I've seen many HP documents that were distributed to user groups > > > under the NOMAS scheme. NOMAS = NOt MAnufacturer Supported. In other > > > words, use and enjoy the information, but we're not going to help you any > > > more. Needless to say, such information (which included things like ROM > > > source listings) is very valuable. > > > > > HP is not an IC vendor. Their practices have always been what I've considered > > Wrong.. > > Although I've never seen a programmable chip from HP, HP most certainly > did sell chips (I don't think they actually made them on their own fab > lines, though). Example, the 1LB3 HPIL interface chip. It was available > to anyone who wanted to use one to make an HPIL device. HP sold > development kits, etc for this chip as well. > That's not what I remember about HP's early calculators, though. I attempted to find out what I could about the HP calculators of the early '70's, since we had an application for 'em, but all they'd tell us was that everything was "proprietary" and they wouldn't tell us anything. We did get 'em to work, but bought the TI calculators instead. > > > unfriendly, so I've endeavored to avoid their products. Printers, notably, > > Odd. Until recently I've always found HP to be most friendly to user > groups, etc. They released a _lot_ of internal documentation that way > (ROM sources, timing diagrams, memory maps, pinouts, etc). OK, there was > no support, but it was certainly very useful. > That's not how they presented themselves back in '72-73. I wrote them off then and have avoided them since. Since then I've used only one HP product line, and that's their optoelectronic devices, e.g. 7-segment displays, optoisolators. Of course, I do use their printers, but it's not painless. > > No, until about 5 years ago, HP were certainly one of the 'good guys'. > > > > But as I've said enough times already, the computer and OS to run said > > > software most certainly are not free! > > > > > Tony, YOU've made the choice to avoid the software and hardware that make > Linux is supposed to be free. > > Well, maybe I had no choice. As I pointed out, neither the computer nor > the OS are free. I have little enough money as it is... > > > things easy. Don't presume to criticize the device vendors for failing to > > support YOUR hobby. > > Firstly, I am not critising them. I'll just choose not to use their > products. Now will you please stop flaming me for making that choice. > This isn't a flame, it is a caution that you may be isolating yourself from the current technology, and that technology would make things much easier for you. With the programmable hardware you wouldn't have to resolder wires in order to make changes, and you wouldn't have to change connector pinouts because you changed the internals of a circuit. Maybe you should consider DOSEMU and WINE on some LINUX box. Then you could spend your time experimenting with those theoretical concepts as you want to, and generate no wasted hardware. > > However, there's also a difference between 'not suporting' and > 'preventing others from supporting'. I don't expect Philips or Intel to > sell me an 8051 cross-assembler for linux they won't sell it to you, but they'll give you what they have available, and, with a little web-search, you can find useable source code that can easily be adapted to whatever compiler you have. > (or for RT11, or...). But I can > take the published datasheets and write an assembler. The information is > there (opcode map, etc). But in the case of PLDs not only will the > manufacturers not sell me software for my choice of OS (reasonable), they > also won't provide the information to let me (or others) write that software. > The PLD vendors will sell you software for LINUX if they don't give it away, though I don't expect they'll support RT11 or OS8. > > > > > with it. If they buy a few parts from somewhere and abuse them, it's not > > on > > > > you. If you specifically tell them they're not allowed to build your > > > > circuit, as you retain the rights to it, but choose to share the > > information > > > > > > Odd, but when I publish a circuit, I expect people to want to build it. I > > > am not doing this as some kind of 'how clever I am' advertising! > > > > You just tell them that to protect yourself. If you suggest that they build it, you could be considered liable for the solder splat on their lap, and for the burn on their privates if they were doing it in their skivvies. > > > If you don't want the associated headaches, don't publish the circuits. That > > is the choice that the programmable logic vendors decided to make. > > I am not sure you quite understood what I was saying, but.... > > Considering I want to publish circuits (in the same way that some people > like giving away free software), the obvious choice for me is not to use > programmable devices unless I really have to. Then there are no support > problems for me. > and it's generous of you to want to do that, but there are risks. > Using SSI/MSI parts makes for the greatest likelihood the end-user will be able to implement your design, but it doesn't increase the chances of completing the work, since the supplies of many of those old parts are finite. I have a couple of old circuits I published back in the '70's, for which I doubt anyone will find parts nowadays. If someone becomes accustomed to using one of these gadgets, I wonder how they'll get replacement parts. There was a time when when TTL was "THE" way to go. That time has passed. The stuff still works and you can still blink lights as you always did, with the stuff, but it's just not the technology of choice any longer. Wait till someone sues you for using parts, in your published design, that he can't get. There's free software to enable the casual user to develop his own logic in programmable devices, and there's free software to drive hardware that does the programming using circuitry provided for free by the device vendors, to run on the popular OS'. Most folks use those. If, for whatever reasons, you decide you don't want to run those more or less current OS' or the platforms that support them, it's a choice you make. I routinely see completely functional hardware capable of running the popular OS' in the surplus vendors' stores for <$80. I bought a complete HP PC unit for less than that a few months back, just to pass it along to a friend who didn't have much budget. There's certainly no reason why someone who's already got a range of hardware can't accomodate that in his budget and environs IF he wants to, so it comes down to a choice, which everybody's free to make for himself. I'm sure you understand that IC vendors in business to make money by selling their IC's in volume really can't afford to spend more than 100ps per day on hobbyists. With that short a time budget, they certainly have to focus on the larger part of the hobbyist market. It's not likely that they'll put out a version for the PDP8. > > > > If somebody is so stupid that they can't analyse the cost of my circuit > > > against the cost of another one (including any necessary design time), > > > then to be honest, they're not fit to be alive. > > > > > I don't think that's a choice either of us is qualified to make. > > > > > > And if I am ever sued for something like this, then I will probably > > > fatally autoLART... > > > > > You're putting your fate in someone else's hands, Tony. I'd rethink that > > option. > > No. I have no desire to remain in the world if I am going to be sued for > providing information in good faith. Just because I am not clever enough > to spot the cheapest way to solve a particular problem. > If you want to minimize your risk profile, you avoid certain exposures. Nowadays, if someone inadvertently sticks his screwdriver in the wall plug and harms himself, while assembling your circuit, you could be viewed as liable. You provided the information in good faith. His lawyer says you should have warned him against inserting his screwdriver in the mains while standing on a wet kitchen floor ... From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 15 22:51:16 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question In-Reply-To: <200204160322.g3G3Mx621685@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Has anyone ever gotten a "TK50-Z" in a 'TK SCSI' encosure to work with any > > 'normal' scsi controller on a PC or something? I picked one up for a few > > $$ today, and just realized the enclosure has a 220V power supply... > > Yes, but not me. IIRC, it needs to be a TK50Z-GA. Keep in mind the drive > is only 95MB, so is really only of use if you've got DEC HW. I was hoping to use it to make an image of a bootable VMS 5.3 tape so I don't have to screw with MOP booting if/when I try to do a new install onto my VS3200. And it's a TK50Z-G3 according to the label. > > Also, how do I get the disk out of an RRD40 without a computer attached? > > Um, unless you've got the 'clear sleave', I don't think you're going to get > the disk out without demolishing the drive! As long as that's the drive I'm > thinking of it uses a funky 'pincer' holder for the CD, with a clear > 'sleave' around it to make up the 'caddy'. You stick the caddy in the drive > and pull the 'sleave' back out. To remove the CD, you stick the 'sleave' in > and pull out the whole caddy. (hopefully that makes sense) How easy is it to take apart without killing the drive? Or can I make a 'clear sleve' very easily out of a couple of pieces of plastic? > > DEC RRD40. I don't have anything but the drive and whatever is stuck in > > the drive with the CD in it. In a 110V external enclosure. > > Any idea if this is a SCSI drive? There are two varients of this, one is > SCSI, the other connects to a Q-Bus controller. > It's got a pair of 50pin amphenols on the back, and a circuit board inside between the connectors and the drive. So, it looks like it's SCSI. -- Pat From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 23:03:55 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: simh V2.9-5 In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Apr 15, 2002 10:40:31 PM Message-ID: <200204160403.g3G43tr23303@shell1.aracnet.com> > I just downloaded and built simh V2.9. I was able to boot the > RA90 disk image I created for Charon-VAX. No timeout, full Just to be nit-picky, that would be V2.9-5. > source, with Ethernet support coming. There's supposed to > be a couple of bugs, but I haven't found them yet. Ethernet is coming?!?! When? I could really use ethernet support for the PDP-11 version of SIMH! BTW, how does the speed of the VAX version compare to real hardware? Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 15 23:05:08 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question In-Reply-To: <200204160322.g3G3Mx621685@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Has anyone ever gotten a "TK50-Z" in a 'TK SCSI' encosure to work with any > > 'normal' scsi controller on a PC or something? I picked one up for a few > > $$ today, and just realized the enclosure has a 220V power supply... > > Yes, but not me. IIRC, it needs to be a TK50Z-GA. Keep in mind the drive > is only 95MB, so is really only of use if you've got DEC HW. I'm running a TK50Z-GA on a VS4000/60, which drives all my other SCSI stuff just fine. Was thinking about trying to hang it off a NetBBSD/PC-DOS PC, to make tapes from some images. I got the -GA off eBay for about $5. The shipping whupped me stupid, but it was worth it. Doc From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Apr 15 23:06:52 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: References: <3CB9B37C.6988.2DBC614@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBB5D0C.27168.1EC3027@localhost> It's looks like a fairly simple board and there are no significant chips that you can see. The 4 port section chips and components are encased in black plastic-like material, similar to what I've seen on other NICs, each on it's own section of the board. It does have 4 LEDs on the face of the card. To indicate activity I imagine. I tried Peter Wendts MCA card i.d. program to no avail. Lawrence > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > This reminds me of an unusual board I picked up years ago... > > > > > > Somewhere, I have an ISA board with 4 10Base-2 interfaces. It was made by > > > Kodiak Technologies (long since out of business). It uses 4 Seeq 8005 chips, > > > and appears to have headers for 4 AUI ports too. I never could find > > > documentation on the board, and it seems to use a nonstandard scheme for I/O > > > access. Anyone ever heard of these or have any documentation or manufacturer > > > provided drivers for them? > > > > I also have an unknown MCA board by Pure Data copyrighted 1987 with 4 > > BNC connectors. I had thought it might be an arcnet (which IIRC PD was > > heavily involved with) board. Some sort of hub on a card. > > What kind of chips does it have on it? Usually you can identify a these > kinds of boards based on the chips they use. > > -Toth > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 15 23:09:32 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > > The salts that are the endproduct of corrosion usually aren't conductors, > > but that wouldn't prevent them from interfering with the operation of the > > board. > > Well, something's interfering. I get a persistent B_CACHE failure on > startup. It might be something like corrosion int the middle of a contact, if you have any socketed chips. Or omsething like that. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 23:15:10 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question In-Reply-To: from "pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com" at Apr 15, 2002 10:51:16 PM Message-ID: <200204160415.g3G4FAa23812@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Yes, but not me. IIRC, it needs to be a TK50Z-GA. Keep in mind the drive > > is only 95MB, so is really only of use if you've got DEC HW. > > I was hoping to use it to make an image of a bootable VMS 5.3 tape so I > don't have to screw with MOP booting if/when I try to do a new install > onto my VS3200. And it's a TK50Z-G3 according to the label. Not sure I follow what you're trying to do, but anyhow. My guess is that you can probably hook it up to a normal SCSI controller. > How easy is it to take apart without killing the drive? Or can I make a > 'clear sleve' very easily out of a couple of pieces of plastic? I've no idea how easy it would be, I've never tried to take my drive apart. As for making a 'sleave', I don't think you could without one to go by (even then I'm not sure). The worst part is the caddies for this drive are rare as hens teeth! > It's got a pair of 50pin amphenols on the back, and a circuit board inside > between the connectors and the drive. So, it looks like it's SCSI. Oh, well. I'm sort of looking for one that will work with the Q-Bus board, but not very hard. Zane From dittman at dittman.net Mon Apr 15 23:22:15 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: simh V2.9-5 In-Reply-To: <200204160403.g3G43tr23303@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 15, 2002 09:03:55 PM Message-ID: <200204160422.g3G4MF506834@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I just downloaded and built simh V2.9. I was able to boot the > > RA90 disk image I created for Charon-VAX. No timeout, full > > Just to be nit-picky, that would be V2.9-5. The archive is simhv29.zip, and that's what Bob called it, so I was guessing the -x were the test releases and V2.9 was the actual release. > > source, with Ethernet support coming. There's supposed to > > be a couple of bugs, but I haven't found them yet. > > Ethernet is coming?!?! When? I could really use ethernet support for the > PDP-11 version of SIMH! People are working on DELQA support, but I don't know the current status. > BTW, how does the speed of the VAX version compare to real hardware? I haven't tested the speed at this time. There's also a gcc bug that prevents using optimization on the VAX emulation. The PDP10 emulation was also affected but there's been a workaround added. The workaround is supposed to go in the VAX emulation later (from the release notes). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 15 23:32:45 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question References: Message-ID: <3CBBA96D.3090204@internet1.net> pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > How easy is it to take apart without killing the drive? Or can I make a > 'clear sleve' very easily out of a couple of pieces of plastic? I don't know about making a clear sleave since I haven't seen a whole caddy yet. I bought a drive off of Ebay, and it had a disk still in it, like yours. I was able to take the top off of the bare drive and pull the cd out. I think I pulled them out separately, but am not sure on the order. I don't have the drive anymore, so I can't look at it to remind myself. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 15 23:48:47 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: John Foust > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > about the inability to format e-mail responses > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational style . . . Glen 0/0 From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 16 00:20:49 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > From: John Foust > > > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > about the inability to format e-mail responses > > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? > Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed > throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational > style . . . I concur with that, also I prefer doing a 'normal' "> " quoting of the text and 72 chars or so max width... not 50chars limit, not tabbed in from the left, no HTML, no "----Original Message----" sh*t. Oh yea, and try to properly use the shift key - not all caps, not all lowercase. I know some people aren't great typists or use funky (eg. Outlook) email clients, but to me it helps make the message much more readable. Just my $0.02. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 16 00:23:08 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Kinda OT?: Looking for rackmount screw sets.... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467831@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3CBBB53C.4020406@internet1.net> I would think Home Depot would have some larger examples of what you need. Lowes does. I'm not sure I've seen them used in computers, so you may need a more refined (probably a bad way of saying it) product, than what I've seen used in automotive applications. Still it's worth a shot. Try a shop that supplies auto body shops. You may find what you need. I suspect, if you need something smaller/finer.... maybe a nut from the dashboard area may work. Maybe silver in color, rather than grey. J-nut, U-nut, or speed-nut perhaps. Shops/manufacturers call them different things, some people call them nothing at all. Someone mentioned "tinnerman", but I think this is a brand name that covers a lot of different designs. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA David Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, I just acquired a 5' x 3' x 2' IBM AS400 drive cabinet. F--n > heavy! > Now, to mount equipment in it, I need to find some more of those > clip-on T-nut kinda things, which clip on around the hole in the rails, so > you then use the supplies screws to mount your equipment. Some older DEC > racks used the same thing. > And, as you can guess, the guys at the local Home Depot just gave > me funny looks. > Anybody know where I can get a dozen or two of these screw mount > sets? For a reasonable price? And what are they called? From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 16 00:10:45 2002 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: NEC V20 and Rainbow (was: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M) Message-ID: Lawrence wrote: > On the Rainbow I saw mention of either an EPROM mod (it's documented >according to www.old-computers.com) or choosing the OS on start-up. I can't >remember the boot-up choice on my 'bow and it's buried right now. Boot-up choice is made by telling the system which disk to boot from. But you don't get to that choice unless you modify the boot PROM (I think not EPROM) to account for the V20's faster (fewer cycles) execution of a timing loop. The modification is documented, I think it's in Rainbow News and I can dig it out in a couple weeks if anyone is interested. For purposes of the original thread, modifying a Rainbow is needless, because it already includes a Z-80 (4 MHz) in addition to the 8088 (4.mumble MHz), and will run Dec CP/M-80/86. It probably makes a pretty good platform for anyone wishing to cross-develop from MS-DOS (up to 3.10b) to CP/M. For hot-rodding purposes, the V-20 mod is recommended by Rainbow News as a good way to get more speed out of the Rainbow. - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 16 00:10:09 2002 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: TTL computing (link to) Re: Fuse PROM Message-ID: Fred wrote (about a demo PROM with visible links): >How about using circuit breakers? >Then you would have a manually erasable PROM, without further expenditure >each time that you program it. Then Richard wrote (about the distinction between hard-, firm-, and soft-ware): >It happens that some folks differentiate >between hardware and firmware based on whether you can touch it or not. You >can't touch firmware, at least not in a practical sense, just as you can't >touch software. Hmmm. If the circuit breakers are the type that pop out a button when they break, I *could* touch software, after it was programmed into the circuit-breaker PROM. Actually, if things were set up *just* right, I could arrange to be hit over the head by software (as it was being written to PROM). Do we need a new name for this device? FEPROM (officially Finger Erasable Programmable etc., but we all know it's really Fred's Erasable etc.)? - Mark From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 00:46:15 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Looking for OS/2 software. Message-ID: Specifically, I'm looking for Digitalk Parts Workbench for OS/2. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 01:09:22 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Looking for a particular piece of hardware... Message-ID: Specifically a 2-channel 80+Mbps Mylex RAID controller. Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 16 01:12:47 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3CBBDCFF.17958.11192F05@localhost> > > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > about the inability to format e-mail responses > > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? > Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed > throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational > style . . . I absolutly agree. Especialy with series of replys llike we have the embedded style helps a lot. I considere the 'Top-Style' as rude. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 16 01:31:42 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: simh V2.9-5 In-Reply-To: <200204160422.g3G4MF506834@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200204160403.g3G43tr23303@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 15, 2002 09:03:55 PM Message-ID: >> > I just downloaded and built simh V2.9. I was able to boot the >> > RA90 disk image I created for Charon-VAX. No timeout, full >> >> Just to be nit-picky, that would be V2.9-5. > >The archive is simhv29.zip, and that's what Bob called it, so >I was guessing the -x were the test releases and V2.9 was the >actual release. His packageing is a bit confusing, I think it's to keep him from having to modify the HTML on the web page. V2.9 was released on the 3rd of February, while V2.9-5 was released.... (OK, I'm not sure when in the last few days it was released, I just learned about it today). >People are working on DELQA support, but I don't know the >current status. I'd gathered the real holdup is that Bob wants a platform indepentent solution, something that just isn't going to happen. Still, I don't think that the DZ11 emulation is platform independant so hopefully we'll see something for UNIX in the near future. Once this is available, I've got to wonder how much I'll actually use my PDP-11's! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 16 01:37:59 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) References: <3CBBDCFF.17958.11192F05@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBBC6C7.351E4791@rain.org> I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. It is especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the message content ... which is most of the time. Hans Franke wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > > about the inability to format e-mail responses > > > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > > Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? > > Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed > > throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational > > style . . . > > I absolutly agree. Especialy with series of replys llike > we have the embedded style helps a lot. I considere the > 'Top-Style' as rude. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 16 01:45:02 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Looking for a particular piece of hardware... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Specifically a 2-channel 80+Mbps Mylex RAID controller. > >Peace... Sridhar Uh, what is the model number? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dittman at dittman.net Tue Apr 16 01:55:09 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: simh V2.9-5 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 15, 2002 11:31:42 PM Message-ID: <200204160655.g3G6t9K07982@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> > I just downloaded and built simh V2.9. I was able to boot the > >> > RA90 disk image I created for Charon-VAX. No timeout, full > >> > >> Just to be nit-picky, that would be V2.9-5. > > > >The archive is simhv29.zip, and that's what Bob called it, so > >I was guessing the -x were the test releases and V2.9 was the > >actual release. > > His packageing is a bit confusing, I think it's to keep him from having to > modify the HTML on the web page. V2.9 was released on the 3rd of February, > while V2.9-5 was released.... (OK, I'm not sure when in the last few days > it was released, I just learned about it today). I just saw the announcement today, too. > >People are working on DELQA support, but I don't know the > >current status. > > I'd gathered the real holdup is that Bob wants a platform indepentent > solution, something that just isn't going to happen. Still, I don't think > that the DZ11 emulation is platform independant so hopefully we'll see > something for UNIX in the near future. Once this is available, I've got to > wonder how much I'll actually use my PDP-11's! I'm trying the latest version of TS10 (just updated today). There's support for DEQNA/DELQA/DESQA, but I'm trying the code right now. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 16 02:02:19 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > TLC it performs flawlessly). The water doesn't seem to do any harm at > > all, even with long-term exposure...it's the crap that the water can > > carry into the equipment, and sometimes corrosion later on. > > So what can you do with accumulated mineal salts around component > legs? Looks like tin "rust". I tried firm-but-gentle with a stiff > toothbrush, and didn't get anywhere. > I have that MV3100-90 board that I think just needs the corrosion, > which I suspect is conductive, removed. Try a little baking soda+water paste and a toothbrush. That will remove any loose corrosion, but won't polish out the tarnished spots. Tarnished leads on chips won't cause any problems, but make sure the solder joints are in good condition. Most problems with boards that have been exposed to the elements for long periods will be due to solder joints that were not "perfect" to begin with. Basically, moisture finds its way down into the microscopic cracks in those faulty joints, and expands the tiny crack further as the temperature of the water drops. Finding those bad solder joints can take alot of time. Staying right on topic, I spent 3 hours today pulling apart some gear (which meets classiccmp age requirements) that has been out in the weather for about 2-3 years. The boards will get washed, connectors polished, and everything else cleaned off. The only real damage is to their outer steel cabinets, which are starting to rust since the layer of paint on them was thin. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 16 02:11:15 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <20020415203139.G375840@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On 2002.04.15 09:21 Enrico Badella wrote: > > > should I stuff them in the oven at low temperature and force > > a drying or best let them settle for some time. > > Disassemble everything, clean it in the shower if there is dirt on it, > maybe rinse it with IsoPropAlc, put it in a warm room for some days. > Disassembleing is good, as there may be small gaps filled with water > that needs loooong to dry and reseating connectors that may be a bit > coroded get better contact. Never, ever, under any circumstances let bare metal air dry. It *will* corrode. This includes any chassis parts, screws, connectors, etc. It is still best to dry painted metals too, since moisture always finds tiny holes and cracks and gets under the paint. A few towels and careful use of a hair dryer will save you much grief later. The worst mistake folks down here in Houston made after the floods we had was to let gear dry out slowly on its own before cleaning it. It isn't much fun spending hours polishing out corroded computer chassis, and dried boards are much more difficult to clean. -Toth From dittman at dittman.net Tue Apr 16 02:28:54 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: simh V2.9-5 In-Reply-To: <200204160655.g3G6t9K07982@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Apr 16, 2002 01:55:09 AM Message-ID: <200204160728.g3G7Ss408146@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I'd gathered the real holdup is that Bob wants a platform indepentent > > solution, something that just isn't going to happen. Still, I don't think > > that the DZ11 emulation is platform independant so hopefully we'll see > > something for UNIX in the near future. Once this is available, I've got to > > wonder how much I'll actually use my PDP-11's! > > I'm trying the latest version of TS10 (just updated today). > There's support for DEQNA/DELQA/DESQA, but I'm trying the > code right now. So far my attempts to get the network going have failed with TS10. DECnet/Plus doesn't start correctly, the MAC address isn't changed to AA-00-04-xx-xx-xx, and tcp/ip can't talk to the host system. I may be doing something wrong, or the network support isn't ready. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 02:32:29 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Looking for a particular piece of hardware... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Specifically a 2-channel 80+Mbps Mylex RAID controller. > > Uh, what is the model number? eXtremeRAID 1100 DAC1164P. Peace... Sridhar From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 15 18:57:43 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: SIMON by Milton-Bradley (was RE: Does Anyone Have A) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Feldman, Robert wrote: > Jonathan Engdahl mentioned the TI chip in the Simon game, which reminds me I > have some TI TMS34010 chips and one TMS34010 User's Guide that I don' need. > The chips are on B+H scanner (?) 3-board stacks with graphic RAM and SCSI > and printer ports, and are a bit heavy. I can pull the TMS chip if anyone > wants just that. Free for postage. Reply to robert_feldman(at)jdedwards.com. By the way, the 1980s Simon game was invented by the same guy who invented the first home videogame system (the Magnavox Odyssey). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 16 03:12:05 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <3CBBC6C7.351E4791@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > From: John Foust > > > > > > > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > > > about the inability to format e-mail responses > > > > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > > > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > > > > > Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp > > > posts? Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments > > > interspersed throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, > > > more conversational style . . . > > > > I absolutly agree. Especialy with series of replys llike we have the > > embedded style helps a lot. I considere the 'Top-Style' as rude. > > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. Then I guess you will have to deal with people like myself reformatting your emails when replying. I personally can't stand to see an email thread with mostly proper quoting where someone replies at the top. Several email lists I'm on have an enforced rule that email must be quoted and threaded properly. To date, all of the email etiquette information I've read states that a reply should always follow the quoted text, with the authors' names at the very top. Quotes should also be trimmed down, sometimes to just one author's text. Any extra or unnecessary quoted text (including sigs) should be removed to save bandwith. > It is especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the > message content ... which is most of the time. If the subject of a thread changes significantly, the subject line should be modified accordingly. A modified subject line should typically include _at least_ 1/3-1/2 of the original subject line text, prefixed by 'was', and surrounded by parentheses. The current subject line is a good example. -Toth From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 16 03:25:01 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <3CBBC6C7.351E4791@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 15, 2002 11:37:59 PM Message-ID: <200204160825.EAA28054@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Marvin Johnston once stated: > > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. It is > especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the message > content ... which is most of the time. But I get so much email (from this list, and others) that I *still* have to scroll down to get the context anyway, and it just doesn't look right to me to have the response at the top. -spc (Ah, this looks much better to me 8-) From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 16 03:25:50 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <3CBB5D0C.27168.1EC3027@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > > > I also have an unknown MCA board by Pure Data copyrighted 1987 with > > > 4 BNC connectors. I had thought it might be an arcnet (which IIRC > > > PD was heavily involved with) board. Some sort of hub on a card. > > > > What kind of chips does it have on it? Usually you can identify a these > > kinds of boards based on the chips they use. > > It's looks like a fairly simple board and there are no significant > chips that you can see. The 4 port section chips and components are > encased in black plastic-like material, similar to what I've seen on > other NICs, each on it's own section of the board. It does have 4 LEDs > on the face of the card. To indicate activity I imagine. I tried Peter > Wendts MCA card i.d. program to no avail. That does sound like an arcnet card, although it could also be some sort of data acquisition interface. Many arcnet cards do have an epoxy encased module for some of the media interface circuitry. Do you have the .adf file for this board? -Toth From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 04:32:39 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CBBFDC7.24205.183685E2@localhost> > Has anyone ever gotten a "TK50-Z" in a 'TK SCSI' encosure to work with > any 'normal' scsi controller on a PC or something? > Yup, got a stripped one sat on a desk at the moment ; TK50 (ver E4) from a different system the SCSI-TK50 drive adaptor board from the (scrap) enclosure, set to ID5 PC AT PSU to drive the adapter board & TK50 drive PC with Adaptec AHA1540CF, running DOS6.22 & Adaptecs DOS driver (ASPI4DOS.SYS) loaded. Using the ST program (v1.1, by John Wilson) I can read & write images from/to TK50 catridges happily. I have the thing nekkid as I need to clean the TK50s head using a Qtip with IPA on every few tapes I play with as they get gunked up from reading the old tapes quite quickly. Now, if someone happens to have an image of the Mvax-II full diagnostics that could be usefull... greg From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Tue Apr 16 04:34:33 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E24@BUSH02> Message-ID: <3CBBF029.C83D5E1E@Vishay.com> If I need more power than one of the lab PSUs can supply, I connect them in parallel. This works well because both do not only limit their individual output voltages, but they also individually limit the current they supply to the load (and, as lab supplies, they don't get confused by being fed backwards, so I don't need the diodes). Some twiddling with the knobs allows perfect balancing of load between the supplies, running only one in "voltage source" mode, the other(s) in "current source" mode effectively. So, I think if you use PSUs that have a current limiting circuit that is not only for short-circuit protection, but engages smoothly as current approaches the continuous rating of the PSU, you should be able to connect them in parallel with said diodes. Of course, these PSUs will not be the cheapest devices... However, this setup may get difficult if loading varies widely. Another problem might be shutting down the entire system if one or more of the supplies fail: you wouldn't want the remaining ones to supply as much current as they can, keeping the voltage only half-way up and running your circuitry in brown-out mode. Andreas "Davison, Lee" wrote: > > but it won't help with the current distribution problem. The PSU > who's output after the diode drop is the highest voltage will end > up sourcing all the current. Not what you really want. > > -tony > > Not quite, the forward volt drop of the diodes will even > out the current between the individual units. Even > shottky barrier diodes have a vf of >0.4v at the curents > that would be involved. > > Lee. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Tue Apr 16 05:43:37 2002 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question Message-ID: <13631e13931b.13931b13631e@ono.com> If I understand it well, I could use one tabletop TK50-GA I have :-) That's right ? Oh, another more thing: Could I take one complete image of one backup tape to put it in a "virtual tape image" format ? I have one backup of Oracle for VMS (very old) and I'd like to recover it and mount under one simulator like SIMH or so. Greetings Sergio ----- Mensaje Original ----- Remitente: "Greg Elkin" Fecha: Martes, Abril 16, 2002 11:32 am Asunto: Re: Assorted goodies & TK Question > > Has anyone ever gotten a "TK50-Z" in a 'TK SCSI' encosure to > work with > > any 'normal' scsi controller on a PC or something? > > > Yup, got a stripped one sat on a desk at the moment ; > TK50 (ver E4) from a different system > the SCSI-TK50 drive adaptor board from the (scrap) enclosure, set > to ID5 > PC AT PSU to drive the adapter board & TK50 drive > PC with Adaptec AHA1540CF, running DOS6.22 & Adaptecs DOS driver > (ASPI4DOS.SYS) loaded. > > Using the ST program (v1.1, by John Wilson) I can read & write > images from/to > TK50 catridges happily. > > I have the thing nekkid as I need to clean the TK50s head using a > Qtip with > IPA on every few tapes I play with as they get gunked up from > reading the old > tapes quite quickly. > > Now, if someone happens to have an image of the Mvax-II full > diagnostics that > could be usefull... > > > greg > > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 16 06:11:37 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <3CBBC6C7.351E4791@rain.org> Message-ID: <000101c1e537$7a2cc180$4d4d2c0a@atx> Aaargh - INCOMING!!! Marvin Johnston [marvin@rain.org] said > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. It is > especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the message > content ... which is most of the time. > So the regular argument now resurfaces on this list. There is an irreconcilable disagreement between the "old-style" users who got used to mailing lists with command-line tools for whom the bottom posting is truly more convenient and the newer users of packages like Outlook, Netscape, or other "web-style" tools which usually handle threading quite well and always start by displaying the top of the message - these users tend to prefer top posting. The old guard point out the RFC as justification for their attitude - but then it was written before the more modern tools became popular. In complex cases bottom (interleaved) posting is necessary, and I have used that technique in this case (even though it is not really necessary) to minimise the heat in the flame war. Enough said Andy From dbp at phosphor-technology.com Tue Apr 16 06:25:14 2002 From: dbp at phosphor-technology.com (David Pendrill) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? Message-ID: Hi, The phosphor compositions are not secret, only the way they are made! The old monochrome green P39 is made of Zinc Silicate activated with Manganese and a trace of Arsenic to extend the persistence,(Zn2SiO4:Mn:As) which is the main difference between that and P1 (Zn2SiO4:Mn). The old monochrome orange "LA" phosphor is made of Cadmium Chlorophosphate activated with Manganese (Cd5(PO4)3.Cl:Mn). There are not always equivalents between the two codes. We stopped making LA phosphor for the far eastern market in the mid 90's because of environmental issues and the rise of colour monitors. I hope this helps David Pendrill Head of Research and Development. Phosphor Technology From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 16 06:55:03 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <000101c1e537$7a2cc180$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Andy Holt wrote: > The old guard point out the RFC as justification for their attitude - but > then it was written before the more modern tools became popular. Define "popular." It's obviously not popular on this list. And, unlike a lot of 733T H4x0Rz, I tend to agree with RFC/Netiquette compliance just because it _is_ the standard. > In complex cases bottom (interleaved) posting is necessary, and I have used > that technique in this case (even though it is not really necessary) to > minimise the heat in the flame war. The implication there is that you can see the complexity coming in a thread's infancy. Wow. You're way ahead of me, there. Doc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 16 07:12:43 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: HP old computer In-Reply-To: <000801c1e4bf$8bebafd0$0e01a8c0@MCAP2> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020416081243.0083f530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Robb, I fixed one up for someone once for an internet box and I'll tell you what I can remember. I believe that they use a 90 MHz Pentium CPU but they can be upgraded. I think I upgraded the one that I had to 160 MHz. They're decent machines and have ethernet and such built in but one thing that that I hate about them is that they need special brackets to install extra drives. There should be a couple of tabs on the front bottom corners, push the tabs in (or out?) and the case should slide off the front (or forward about an inch and then up and off?). I think that pressing F1 while it's booting will get you into the CMOS setup. Joe At 01:53 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote: > I am looking for the specs for a Hewlett Packard Vectra Vi series 4 >5/90 computer. Someone gave me this machine which works fine however >getting the darn thing open so I can install a cd rom is another matter. >Its like a vault or something. If anyone can find specs for this computer >could you please email me the URL to fenwick@ns.sympatico.ca Thank you > Robb Fenwick From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 16 07:19:39 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <15547.31335.333953.985107@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <15546.63202.610835.243682@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020416081939.0081ca10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:12 PM 4/15/02 -0400, Dave wrote: > > I use Alconox, a trisodium phosphate based cleaner that's very >effective. Where do you find Alconox? Joe From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 07:49:57 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020416081939.0081ca10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Joe wrote: > > I use Alconox, a trisodium phosphate based cleaner that's very > >effective. > > Where do you find Alconox? http://www.alconox.com/ Click "buy online". Peace... Sridhar From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Tue Apr 16 08:03:59 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020415183935.00a82410@mail.zipcon.net> References: <15546.63202.610835.243682@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020416090359.00e25da0@pop1.epm.net.co> At 06:41 PM 4/15/02 -0700, you wrote: >> I've had good results from sitting stuff atop floor-mounted heater >>vents in the winter. This obviously works best when the equipment in >>question has air vents. > >I've used purified water to rinse mineral deposits off, or extra pure >alcohol followed by purified water, then used a hairdryer on no heat, or >low/very low heating with much success... The first three steps are OK, but the hair dryer is an absolute no-no; you can build up a lot of static in some spots. I have an oven that can go down to 180F. Failing that, you can turn on the oven, let it warm up to about 200F, then turn it off and put the board in. The heat stored in the oven is enough to do the job. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 15 20:24:47 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <002401c1e4e5$80af4b60$3a7b7b7b@ajp> RE: 2114s Over the years i'd seen A higher than normal {2102 as comparison} failure rate. So I had the opportunity to do some checking on why. NOTE: the 2114 never had as good a failure rate as say 2102 or other 1k designs and the next generation of 16k static parts were substantially different with better failure rates. 2114s common failures: Delayed stress damage due to ESD. Common failures are address inputs. Missing bit, usually a failed output due to either ESD or excessive IO loading. bond failures (works when hot or cold) most of those are plastic cases and likely due to cleaners causing internal plastics to expand and lift a bond {usually during board production}. Other likely causes, heat! Ceramic devices seems and generally were more reliable. The CMOS versions 6114 (nec D444) were more relaible, though ESD induced stress failures were a major factor. In the early 80s it was not uncommon to visit a site and NOT see proper ESD protocal used when handeling MOS or CMOS devices. In most cases getting the production people using would often see a substantial drop in early failures{infant mortality}. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 15, 2002 10:24 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing >> >> That doesn't seem to me as a failure of the 2114, but, more likely, a failure >> in the update logic in the refresh memory circuit, possibly in a buffer enable > >I was about to point out that the 2114 is an SRAM and doesn't need >refeshing, but then I realised you were talking about the video refresh >circuitry. > >> or a shortage of hold timing on the data with respect to the write line. >> What, exactly, do you mean by "dud" character? If it appears exactly in the >> middle of a 2Kx8 memory array, it could, indeed be a stuck bit, and if it runs >> from the middle to the top/bottom that would be a candidate for a failed >> memory bit also. If, however, it moves horizontally, or moves outside the >> range residing in a single device, it's clearly something else. Have you >> tried moving the device around in the video memory array? It seems to me that > >Last time I had a problem with a 2114 in a video RAM array, it appeared >that the RAM had lost an address input. Writing a character to a location >in RAM would affect the top 4 bits (IIRC) of a character 2 locations >away (or something like that). It was clearly the RAM because swapping it >over with the one next to it caused the fault to move to the bottom 4 >bits. And a new RAM cured the problem. > >> there have to be at least two of them, and the "dud" character, whatever that >> is, should follow the device. >> >> 2114's are just about as plentiful as any device of the era could be. You >> should not have a problem replacing it. I don't know what the problems of >> sending hardware from the U.S. to the U.K. are, but I'm willing to send you a > >Very few AFAIK. I don't think I've ever had a parcel declared as >'obsolete computer parts' even inspected by customs. Of course this might >have changed now with the increased risk of terrorism (although we've had >terrorist activity for years over here :-(). > >One tip I was once told. Pack chips in transparent anti-static bags (and >put an anti-static warning label on them. Customs officers are not >totally clueless and won't open such a bag if they can clearly see what's >inside (and provided the contents are what they're supposed to be, like >'computer parts' (chips)). But if you pack the chips in an opaque bag, >they might open it (to ensure it doesn't contain drugs, say), and might >not know how to handle the chips without damaging them. > >-tony From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 16 08:24:47 2002 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been trying to contact Chandra Bajpai, but his e-mails keep getting bounced back. anyone know what his new e-mail might be? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 16 08:27:56 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing weighs in at almost 80 pounds. Things inside are pretty bad but I would like to try and get it looking nice again, since the boards inside are damaged I do not think I can get it to work again. Does anyone on the list have repair manual for this model? I would like to see how he belts go around the pulleys inside the case. Thanks From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 15 20:31:32 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? Message-ID: <006701c1e4e6$71b3bbe0$3a7b7b7b@ajp> One assumes all the producs of corrosion are salts . Some however will be oxides and van be very conductive. I've also seen new boards contaiminated with fungal materal {assembled and washed in old mehieco} that had all manner of seemingly intermittent problems until rewashed in clean water and dried. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Sridhar the POWERful To: Doc Shipley Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:38 AM Subject: Re: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? >On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> > The salts that are the endproduct of corrosion usually aren't conductors, >> > but that wouldn't prevent them from interfering with the operation of the >> > board. >> >> Well, something's interfering. I get a persistent B_CACHE failure on >> startup. > >It might be something like corrosion int the middle of a contact, if you >have any socketed chips. Or omsething like that. > >Peace... Sridhar > From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 08:31:39 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:28 2005 Subject: HP old computer In-Reply-To: <000801c1e4bf$8bebafd0$0e01a8c0@MCAP2> Message-ID: <3CBC35CB.17731.191155E6@localhost> I can find a HP Vectra vl 5/xxx series 4 on their website, but no Vectra Vi series 4 5/xx's What is the BIOS version? greg ex of Phoenix, worked on the BIOS for several HP Vectras. Not classic comps as they're <10 yrs old :) From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 08:18:24 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020416081639.0332f348@pc> At 12:48 AM 4/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >> From: John Foust > >> Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything >> about the inability to format e-mail responses >> in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." >> now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > >Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? >Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed >throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational >style . . . You did fine. :-) When I see the entire message quoted (with headers) and no white space between the quoted text and the new comments, my eyes glaze over. If there's a relevant passage, quote it, comment on it and be done with it. If you think for a moment there's a need to quote the entire previous message, then erase it all and begin pontificating. Don't do both. - John From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 08:32:53 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? Message-ID: <003201c1e54b$36246fb0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > TLC it performs flawlessly). The water doesn't seem to do any harm at > > all, even with long-term exposure...it's the crap that the water can > > carry into the equipment, and sometimes corrosion later on. > > So what can you do with accumulated mineal salts around component > legs? Looks like tin "rust". I tried firm-but-gentle with a stiff > toothbrush, and didn't get anywhere. > > I have that MV3100-90 board that I think just needs the corrosion, > which I suspect is conductive, removed. Using a small area of the board where you could correct any damage that this substance might cause, try a little CLR... it's a mixture sold throughout the midwest (U.S.) that dissolves Calcium, Lime, and Rust deposits. Phosphoric acid is one of its components... so be real careful. I've never used it on PC boards before, but it can't be beaten for removing corrosion off metal parts. Regards, -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 08:45:19 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <200204160152.SAA23902@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the orders. I'd probably > > > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > > > Hmm, can I place an advance order? > > I do hope you're referring to the *computer*. > Well that depends. Does the computer come with a Life-Like(tm) Jeri doll? *GD&R* g. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Apr 16 08:48:03 2002 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: simh V2.9-5 In-Reply-To: <200204160403.g3G43tr23303@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200204160403.g3G43tr23303@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <1018964883.8706.10.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2002-04-15 at 23:03, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I just downloaded and built simh V2.9. I was able to boot the > > RA90 disk image I created for Charon-VAX. No timeout, full > > Just to be nit-picky, that would be V2.9-5. > > > source, with Ethernet support coming. There's supposed to > > be a couple of bugs, but I haven't found them yet. > > Ethernet is coming?!?! When? I could really use ethernet support for the > PDP-11 version of SIMH! TS10 has the beginnings of DELQA & DEQNA support, though I don't know what the status is. > > BTW, how does the speed of the VAX version compare to real hardware? Running this script I found on Google: $! CALCULATE_VUPS: $! $ set noon $ orig_privs = f$setprv("ALTPRI") $ process_priority = f$getjpi(0,"PRIB") $ cpu_multiplier = 10 ! VAX = 10 - Alpha/AXP = 40 $ cpu_round_add = 1 ! VAX = 1 - Alpha/AXP = 9 $ cpu_round_divide = cpu_round_add + 1 $ init_counter = cpu_multiplier * 525 $ init_loop_maximum = 205 $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 10$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. init_loop_maximum then goto 10$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ init_vups = ((init_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ loop_maximum = (init_vups * init_loop_maximum) / 10 $ base_counter = (init_counter * init_vups) / 10 $ vups = 0 $ times_through_loop = 0 $ 20$: $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 30$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. loop_maximum then goto 30$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ new_vups = ((base_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ if new_vups .eq. vups then goto 40$ $ vups = new_vups $ times_through_loop = times_through_loop + 1 $ if times_through_loop .le. 5 then goto 20$ $ 40$: $ new_privs = f$setprv(orig_privs) $ set message /nofacility/noidentification/noseverity/notext $ ASSIGN/SYSTEM/EXEC 'vups' MACHINE_VUPS_RATING $ set message /facility/identification/severity/text $ write sys$output "Approximate System VUPs Rating : ", - vups / 10,".", vups - ((vups / 10) * 10) $ exit I get these results: 1.7GHz P4 4.0 700MHz Athlon 2.8 The emulator is running OpenVMS 7.2 on Linux 2.4. Brian > > Zane From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 16 08:55:58 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa References: Message-ID: <3CBC2D6D.B8D57093@compsys.to> >"William R. Buckley" wrote: > Over the past year, I have sent several messages to Tim Shoppa > requesting a set of CD ROMs containing the offerings of his at > the web site, metalab.unc.edu, yet to date I have not received > the requested material. I have also sent email to Tom directly > but, he has not answered. Is there some extenuating circumstance > of which others on this list are more familiar than I? > William R. Buckley, Director Emeritus > International Core Wars Society Jerome Fine replies: It took a week of trying, but I have finally downloaded all three CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 from: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ Note also that the file MD5SUMS seems to contain checksum values, but I don't know how to use these values or produce them myself to check if my files are correct. Can anyone help? The best time seems to be at night. Please realize that these are 650 MByte files and will take many hours in most cases, let alone a whole day (or three) if you do not have a high speed connection like DSL. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 16 09:19:52 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? References: <003201c1e54b$36246fb0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CBC3308.80807@internet1.net> I've thought about picking some CLR up, but don't really have a current use for it. You mention that it will remove corrosion, does that include rust? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Using a small area of the board where you could correct any damage > that this substance might cause, try a little CLR... it's a mixture > sold throughout the midwest (U.S.) that dissolves Calcium, Lime, and > Rust deposits. Phosphoric acid is one of its components... so be real > careful. I've never used it on PC boards before, but it can't be beaten > for removing corrosion off metal parts. > > Regards, > -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 09:24:51 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <004a01c1e552$78baedc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday > but it was destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high > place as this thing weighs in at almost 80 pounds. Things > inside are pretty bad but I would like to try and get it > looking nice again, since the boards inside are damaged I > do not think I can get it to work again. Does anyone on the > list have repair manual for this model? I would like to see > how he belts go around the pulleys inside the case. Thanks You are admirably mellow. In lieu of tasting the blood of the a**hole who did this, I'd want everyone who handled that package fired from UPS, Hell, everyone who *might* have handled it, except for the one I'd have the rapport with, the delivery guy. Don't tell me this was a 7-track drive, or I'll weep profusely... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 16 09:23:18 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: VAX-11/785 available, act immediately (fwd) Message-ID: I saw this on another list, thought there might be interest here. On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Douglas A. Gwyn wrote: > Subj: Vax 11/785 > Date: 4/15/2002 10:03:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: PPSJM@prodigy.net > > Hello, > > I just wanted to throw this out and see if anybody has any interest. > We have an opportunity to pick up a complete VAX11/785. > With all the boards in it, it's actually worth a decent amount as scrap > metal. It is currently queued for the scrap heap. > I would buy it and resell it if anyone has an interest. I guess if > anyone is interested make me an offer and I'll see if it's worth it for > me to pick it up. From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Apr 16 09:36:04 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:45 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! > > > > > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the > orders. I'd probably > > > > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > > > > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > > > > > Hmm, can I place an advance order? > > > > I do hope you're referring to the *computer*. > > > Well that depends. Does the computer come with a Life-Like(tm) Jeri doll? > *GD&R* > > > g. > > From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 09:45:54 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa In-Reply-To: <3CBC2D6D.B8D57093@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3CBC4732.11594.19554FD6@localhost> I've just grabbed these images as well, took several days over my ISDN link (no xDSL here alas) If anyone in the UK wants a disk burnt, just yell... greg From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 09:49:48 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784420@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Bochs is not a good idea on that machine. Bochs is meant to run on > non-PC's and it's a complete PC emulator. What he wants is > Plex86, which > is the system virtualization stuff from Bochs, with none of the PC > emulation stuff. He already has all that. Last I heard, Plex86 was still in the "concept only" stage. Is that information outdated, then? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 09:53:56 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: RE: The CommodoreOne is near! (John Chris Wren) References: Message-ID: <15548.15108.941854.348962@phaduka.neurotica.com> Got a little humor impairment problem there, John? -Dave On April 16, John Chris Wren wrote: > Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. > > --John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:45 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! > > > > > > > > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the > > orders. I'd probably > > > > > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > > > > > > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > > > > > > > Hmm, can I place an advance order? > > > > > > I do hope you're referring to the *computer*. > > > > > Well that depends. Does the computer come with a Life-Like(tm) Jeri doll? > > *GD&R* > > > > > > g. > > > > > > -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 16 09:58:40 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Truck full of DEC in Illinois. References: <3CBC2D6D.B8D57093@compsys.to> Message-ID: <02b001c1e557$32bac160$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Just saw this on an eBay page, "Reliable Computer Services,Inc. Since 1985. We have a warehouse FULL of older DEC spare parts. If you would like to visit our 8,800 sq ft warehouse, please call for an appointment. We will not let you leave without your arms, car, van, or SEMI-TRAILER FULL!! LIQUIDATION in progress!! Call Patrick Lind at 815-838-0134 or Email RELCOMSER" Sounds like fun for those in the area. They aren't penny-a-pound, but they sound motivated and I've dealt with them before. John A. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Apr 16 10:10:19 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Edge of OT: Quotes [was: FWD: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467844@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Cameron Kaiser > > > Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. > > .sig dibs! > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire > --------- > > Well, the way I like it is... "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup." I don't know who the author is, but this web page seems to say that it was derived from J.R.R. Tolkien.. http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/cyc/m/meddle.htm ... which leads to... http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/cyc/u/unix.htm ...which brings it back around to being on topic, I hope :) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 10:02:34 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa In-Reply-To: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa (Jerome H. Fine) References: <3CBC2D6D.B8D57093@compsys.to> Message-ID: <15548.15626.800741.265726@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > It took a week of trying, but I have finally downloaded all three CD > images for RSX-11 and RT-11 from: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ > Note also that the file MD5SUMS seems to contain checksum > values, but I don't know how to use these values or produce them > myself to check if my files are correct. Can anyone help? $ cat > /tmp/foo blah ^D $ md5 /tmp/foo MD5 (/tmp/foo) = 0d599f0ec05cebda8c3b8a68c32a1b47 $ Any reasonably modern BSD-based system should have the md5 program preinstalled. If not, you should be able to find it at ftp://ftp.cerias.purdue.edu/pub/tools/unix/crypto/md5/. See http://www.cert.org/security-improvement/implementations/i002.01.html for more information. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 10:05:40 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's (John R. Keys Jr.) References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> Message-ID: <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > weighs in at almost 80 pounds. Things inside are pretty bad but I would > like to try and get it looking nice again, since the boards inside are > damaged I do not think I can get it to work again. Does anyone on the > list have repair manual for this model? I would like to see how he belts > go around the pulleys inside the case. Thanks I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 10:02:49 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784422@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > I've no idea how easy it would be, I've never tried to take > my drive apart. > As for making a 'sleave', I don't think you could without one > to go by (even > then I'm not sure). The worst part is the caddies for this > drive are rare > as hens teeth! Well, I haven't tried taking it apart either, but it may be worth mentioning specifically that when you put the clear "sleeve" back into the drive, it almost certainly releases some kind of catch which allows it to lock onto the "cd-holding-insert-thing" and pull the whole thing back out. I would try to find that catch, which is most likely off to the one side or the other (just a guess, since that's probably where I'd put it...), or directly above or below the disk. (like built into the spindle that turns the CD somehow...) If you can get to it, and release it, you ought to be able to pull the disc out. Otherwise, yes, the caddies are kind of difficult to find, but I have two (one for each drive), so you can probably get them. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 10:05:23 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784423@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > [mailto:pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com] > I know some people aren't great typists or use funky (eg. > Outlook) email > clients, but to me it helps make the message much more readable. Sorry -- I, for one, would jump at the chance to use a real mail client. It would keep me from having to wrap my own lines (!) :/ Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 10:16:45 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: RE: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784423@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15548.16477.691051.359745@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Christopher Smith wrote: > Sorry -- I, for one, would jump at the chance to use a real mail > client. It would keep me from having to wrap my own lines (!) :/ So, why don't you use a real mail client...? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 16 10:18:24 2002 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Truck full of DEC in Illinois. In-Reply-To: <02b001c1e557$32bac160$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200204161518.KAA23379@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Just saw this on an eBay page, > > "Reliable Computer Services,Inc. > Since 1985. We have a warehouse FULL of older DEC spare > parts. If you would like to visit our 8,800 sq ft warehouse, please > call for an appointment. > We will not let you leave without your arms, car, van, or SEMI-TRAILER > FULL!! LIQUIDATION in progress!! > Call Patrick Lind at 815-838-0134 or Email RELCOMSER" > > Sounds like fun for those in the area. > They aren't penny-a-pound, but they sound motivated > and I've dealt with them before. > > John A. > Yep, I've dealt with them a few times as well. They are expensive. Which doesnt stop me from using them of course, but it might stop you. -Lawrence LeMay From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Apr 16 10:19:20 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: amiga 1000 system available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020416101920.00900100@ubanproductions.com> My brother has an Amiga 1000 system, complete with manuals, disks, an external floppy, etc. As far as I know, it is still functional. The system is available for free, preferably to someone who can pick it up in NW Indiana, but if that fails, I can probably be convinced to box and ship it, at your cost... --tom From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 10:20:52 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices???" Message-ID: <005201c1e55a$4c474100$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > Using a small area of the board where you could correct any damage > > that this substance might cause, try a little CLR... it's a mixture > > sold throughout the midwest (U.S.) that dissolves Calcium, Lime, and > > Rust deposits. Phosphoric acid is one of its components... so be real > > careful. I've never used it on PC boards before, but it can't be beaten > > for removing corrosion off metal parts. > > I've thought about picking some CLR up, but don't really have a current > use for it. You mention that it will remove corrosion, does that include rust? I use CLR for: * cleaning the coffeepot (rinse with vinegar afterward) * decalcifying the showerhead * removing rust from nuts, bolts, etc. hardware. * removing rust stains from the clothes washer * making copper pennies be shiny again As others mention, after you clean rust off metal, it will begin to rust almost immediately. I usually use a lubricant made by BG Industries called 'HK' afterward, to prevent corrossion, but sometimes settle for WD-40. If you leave ferrous metals in too long, some ionization process starts to leave a dark film on the parts. It looks ugly, but so far, those parts don't further rust (but the dark film looks like corrosion itself though I don't think it is). hth, -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Apr 16 10:34:56 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467845@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Dave McGuire > > On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > > weighs in at almost 80 pounds.. > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've > shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF > THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? > > -Dave > > -- > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 10:25:54 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784424@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tothwolf [mailto:tothwolf@concentric.net] > Then I guess you will have to deal with people like myself > reformatting > your emails when replying. I personally can't stand to see an > email thread > with mostly proper quoting where someone replies at the top. > Several email > lists I'm on have an enforced rule that email must be quoted > and threaded > properly. That's all good and everything, but I'm certain I'd have reservations about subscribing to a mailing list that enforced it. It so happens that it's quite a bit of extra effort for me to re-format mail so that it looks acceptable, and should I not have the time, yes, I will reply in a form closer to what this piece of $(*& mail client tries to shove down my throat -- I do that both because I just don't have the time to write a well-formatted reply, and because it is not that offensive. HTML is a different story, since most sane people, given a choice of mail readers, would pick one that won't display it. On the other hand, that can be stripped out automatically, leaving no trouble for the people on either end of the conversation. At any rate, removing a post, or a subscriber, because they put the quotations in the wrong place is completely idiotic; this is done, right, or how else would the rule be enforced? > To date, all of the email etiquette information I've read > states that a > reply should always follow the quoted text, with the authors' > names at the > very top. Quotes should also be trimmed down, sometimes to just one > author's text. Any extra or unnecessary quoted text (including sigs) > should be removed to save bandwith. Sure, in a perfect world, that's great, but I've seen some very informative posts that don't follow these rules. Would you just dump them? You're certainly not going to talk everybody into following all of these rules all of the time. > If the subject of a thread changes significantly, the subject > line should > be modified accordingly. A modified subject line should > typically include > _at least_ 1/3-1/2 of the original subject line text, > prefixed by 'was', > and surrounded by parentheses. The current subject line is a > good example. Indeed it should, but again, people forget, or just get lazy, and that doesn't mean that the text of the message is any less valuable. I suppose the point of this whole rant is that regardless of how good these rules are, people will not follow all of them all of the time, and there's really nothing you, or I, or anyone else, can, or should, do about it. (There must be a rule about the number of ,,,s in a single sentence.) That being said, and this being off topic (on top of the fact that it's a problem that can't -- or shouldn't -- be fixed), I'll shut up now. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 16 10:29:22 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > > weighs in at almost 80 pounds. Things inside are pretty bad but I would > > like to try and get it looking nice again, since the boards inside are > > damaged I do not think I can get it to work again. Does anyone on the > > list have repair manual for this model? I would like to see how he belts > > go around the pulleys inside the case. Thanks > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've > shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF > THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? I've noticed that Fedex ground seems to be cheaper than UPS ground, so I've stared using Fedex instead... however, I've not had anything significantly broken AFAIK by UPS - unless the 'dead' hard drive in my AT&T 6544 was due to them. -- Pat From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 16 10:31:22 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: good sigs References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467844@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3CBC43CA.4D59D878@jetnet.ab.ca> David Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, the way I like it is... "Do not meddle in the affairs of > dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup." Now for a dragon would that be 'Hot Sauce' instead? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 10:34:20 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: RE: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's (David Woyciesjes) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467845@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <15548.17532.512100.677424@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with > the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen > anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? I've had this happen in different states, so if it was a moron driver, it must've been multiple moron drivers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 10:35:56 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please note the "*GD&R*" and order "Funny Bone/FRU" P/N 133769. Ah say son, that was a _joke_. Git over it boy." g. On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, John Chris Wren wrote: > Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. > > --John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:45 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: The CommodoreOne is near! > > > > > > > > > > I'd say the biggest problem will be filling all the > > orders. I'd probably > > > > > > be looking for a contract manufacturer in her place. > > > > > > > > Give her time ... Cloning is not quite up to speed yet. > > > > > > > Hmm, can I place an advance order? > > > > > > I do hope you're referring to the *computer*. > > > > > Well that depends. Does the computer come with a Life-Like(tm) Jeri doll? > > *GD&R* > > > > > > g. > > > > > > From micheladam at theedge.ca Tue Apr 16 10:35:04 2002 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (Michel Adam) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa References: <3CBC2D6D.B8D57093@compsys.to> Message-ID: <001901c1e55c$82776820$78697ed8@theedge.ca> Try http://www.fourmilab.ch/md5/ Michel Adam michela@kirk.ca > > Jerome Fine replies: > > It took a week of trying, but I have finally downloaded all three CD > images for RSX-11 and RT-11 from: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ > Note also that the file MD5SUMS seems to contain checksum > values, but I don't know how to use these values or produce them > myself to check if my files are correct. Can anyone help? > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 16 10:37:25 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665DE@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Any reasonably modern BSD-based system should have the md5 program >preinstalled. If not, you should be able to find it at I think you'll find he's running a much older version of BSD called W98 : Someone seems to have kindly backported MD5 to that platform: http://www.pc-tools.net/win32/freeware/console/ Antonio From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 16 10:43:43 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: CDROMs and RT-11 Message-ID: <3CBC46AF.EE7E8349@compsys.to> I don't know if anyone is interested, but I suspect that I have found a way to set-up a dual file structure CD for RT-11. It would initially be started under Windows 98, although that is not required. I have yet to actually test my concept in practice since I don't think I have the required hardware on my Windows 98 system and I don't have a working CDROM on my real PDP-11. However, in principle I don't see why it will not work based on the information I have been able to gather during the last couple of months since I acquired a CD-RW CDROM drive. If you are interested, please contact me and I will write a full report. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 10:42:49 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784425@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Chris Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] > Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. Um, I think this is getting pretty bad. On the other hand, I don't know (nor have I any idea whether anyone does) the target of all of this jest well enough to predict whether she'd have a problem with it. That said -- I will assume that "the industry" is on topic here and continue along those lines for a minute -- I don't know whether this is really an industry specific problem. It strikes me as occurring in many different social settings. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Apr 16 10:47:49 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) Message-ID: I took a little trip over to Champaign, IL yesterday (Mon) and met up with fellow list member Chris Smith. Chris: Just to let you know, I made it home, hot & tired, but ok. It was good to meet you and visit for a while. No doubt, Chris spent yesterday evening going through the carload of stuff I took over to him. I'll let him tell about that. Don't let him get away with calling it his 'latest haul', because he didn't, it was 'home delivery'. :) After that I went to a little town about 12 miles southwest of Champaign. It is named Sadorus and has a population of around 400. It just occurred to me, this town probably holds the record for DEC per capita. Anyway, I stopped at a place called C-U Digital. There I found a warehouse, roughly 8,000 sq. ft., filled with nothing but DEC. A summary of what I saw: Stacks of 5000/2xx DECstations, boxes of LK201/401 keyboards, piles of DECserver 90's, several RAxx drives, several StorageWorks cabinets, a mess of RF7x DSSI drives, a few Alpha servers, several RAID cabinets. This is just the short list. I'd go on but I don't want to be the cause of excess drooling. :) Chris: IIRC, they have VT100 keyboards, and a few still in original packing. Kevin Craft, the owner, was away on a fishing trip, so I talked with this brother Keith. It seems they are still doing a good business, supplying die-hard customers with DEC hardware. He related one recent story where a customer wanted to replace a couple dying VR260 monitors, only the customer insisted that they be new units. I did get a few prices and as expected they are a lot higher than what we list members would prefer. IIRC, an RRD42/43 for around $75, or an RF73 for around $50. About the only good price I heard was around $10 for about any DEC drive mounting bracket. Granted I have found them for less than half that, but those deals are getting fewer and farther between. I guess I can't fault these two for the prices, after all, selling DEC is their livelihood. Keith did mention the amounts of stuff setting around that has not sold in years. For example, a pallet full of DELNI's. I brought up the the subject of this mailing list and hobbyists who are always looking for various items. I then mentioned that selling a mess of DELNI's for a few bucks to hobbyists was better than setting on a pallet gathering dust. He went defensive on me, stating that as soon as he does that, he will get a call from a faithful customer wanting dozens of them. Of course that was Keith talking and Kevin is the boss. I know from past dealings that Kevin is a little more receptive to some ideas. I did get an agreement that sounds promising. I know where this a local cache of DEC, removed from service and setting dormant. The place has a habit of letting stuff set for around five years and then just tossing it. Even with that, I can't seem to talk them out of anything now. I suspect that is because 1) I am cheap, 2) I am just some individual who wandered in. I told Keith that I would get an inventory and he can make an offer, and if it goes through I would like a couple of the machines as a finder's fee. He agreed. The big sour note, I recognized some single drive expansion boxes. However, the DEC badge had been replaced with a Compaq. Compaq actually went to the trouble of having the plastic badge inserts remade in their image. Fortunately, I had not yet had lunch. Well, I have rambled enough. If there is a DEC item that you just absolutely, positively have to have regardless of the price then you might want to contact them. Kevin Craft C-U Digital 100 W. Market St. (the main drag thru town) Sadorus, IL 61872 (217) 598-2424 kaccudigital@aol.com (Kevin's or Keith's, I don't know which) Mike From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Apr 16 10:47:45 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2002; Enrico Badella wrote: Re: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? > I ve this nice question for all of you... what are the best ways to > cure boxes that were out exposed to the weather for an unknown amount > of time. > Last week I managed to get my hands on 2 vaxstations 4000/60, a Cisco > MGS, a HP Apollo 700 workstation, Sun Sparcstation 20 (WOW), a VAX 4000-300 > and a Panasonic 7330. All have varying degree of dampness 8-((. At the > moment I have them in house dry and warm... should I stuff them in the oven > at low temperature and force a drying or best let them settle for some time. I've seen both done. A few years back, a tree fell into the back of my garage. The main hole in the roof was directly over and IBM workstation and its 19" monitor. Many gallons of water funneled down through that hole and into the monitor. In addition to the water, there was the the gravel off the roof shingles as well as small pieces of tree branches, leaves, and bark that got into the monitor. Since the priority was the garage, the machine and monitor got moved to the barn where they sat for almost a year. That meant they went through a fall, winter and spring before I dealt with them again. Since the insurance covered the workstation, I decided to just not mess with it. With full knowledge of what had happened, a friend of mine said he would like to have it. I gave it to him and after a little clean up he gave it the 'magic smoke' test. AFAIK, he is still using the machine. OTOH, I used to work for a Federal agency and they had a supply depot & repair facility. I toured it once and watched them dunk a 100 watt UHF tube type transmitter into a tank of cleaning solution. They then put it into a huge oven for a period of time. I have no idea for how long nor at what temperature, but the units went back out into the field and worked fine. Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 10:49:21 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa In-Reply-To: RE: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa (Carlini, Antonio) References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665DE@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <15548.18433.418344.331702@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > Any reasonably modern BSD-based system should have the md5 > program > >preinstalled. If not, you should be able to find it at > > I think you'll find he's running a much older > version of BSD called W98 : Hmm. Well, that's a problem that's easy to solve. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 16 10:51:46 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) References: <200204160825.EAA28054@conman.org> Message-ID: <3CBC4892.662EA4F0@rain.org> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Marvin Johnston once stated: > > > > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. It is > > especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the message > > content ... which is most of the time. > > But I get so much email (from this list, and others) that I *still* have > to scroll down to get the context anyway, and it just doesn't look right to > me to have the response at the top. Okay, let me modify my statement. On short messages, the bottom or in line is fine; on longer messages, then the top is appropriate. Since the only purpose of quoting is to keep things in context, why not keep the responses on the top where they can be read ... unless they are specifically dealing with some points raised in the original quote. And at least remove the extra garbage! From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 10:48:39 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784426@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > So, why don't you use a real mail client...? ... because restrictions here are such that they don't mind me using their pipe for personal things in a limited manner, but they really hate for people to put any software on their system (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no real mail client, in fact their installations of lookout(!) are even more broken than usual. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 10:59:52 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784427@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Ok, I've got my NeXTStation working, but I'm in need of some advice. First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the monitor? It is just bright enough not to strain your eyes at the highest brightness setting right now... (It's B&W) Next, can anyone tell me why, after booting into single user mode, and changing the root password with 'nu -m' I might still be refused a login next time I boot? I was able to get in once yesterday, after which I tried this morning and was refused. I booted to single user mode again -- looked at the current password hash, changed the password again (the hash turned out different, but I'm not sure that means much really, and could just be different "salt"), booted again normally, and still couldn't get in. So... is there a possibility that either: A) It's getting another password from somewhere and overwriting the one I put in? (I hope not.. :) or... B) Something's not starting right during boot right now, and it needs this to log people into the system? (More likely, I think...) It does still want to connect to the network, and complains about not being able to talk to several machines when it boots. I'm not sure whether this would make a difference, or how I would convince it not to do this. :) Any suggestions? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Tue Apr 16 11:08:24 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa References: <3CBC4732.11594.19554FD6@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBC4C78.3E52AD43@Vishay.com> Greg, can we count Germany as part of the UK (just for the moment, of course), or would that be too far to let you hear me yell? A couple of pounds for handling and postage would still be cheaper than downloading here: I also only have ISDN, but not even a CD writer... Andreas Greg Elkin wrote: > > I've just grabbed these images as well, took several days over my ISDN link > (no xDSL here alas) > > If anyone in the UK wants a disk burnt, just yell... > > greg -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 11:15:27 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: RE: The CommodoreOne is near! (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784425@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15548.19999.274256.644460@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. > > Um, I think this is getting pretty bad. On the other hand, I don't > know (nor have I any idea whether anyone does) the target of all of > this jest well enough to predict whether she'd have a problem with it. > > That said -- I will assume that "the industry" is on topic here and > continue along those lines for a minute -- I don't know whether this > is really an industry specific problem. It strikes me as occurring in > many different social settings. It certainly does, though it seems to be worse in this industry. I've worked with many women in this business (indeed, the most talented programmer I've ever worked with is female)...the vast majority take stuff like this in the way it is intended (humorous and not disrespectful) and laugh about it, while a couple get offended. Those who take offense, well, us guys probably shouldn't say things like that to (or about) them...though I believe they need to relax a bit and find something different to get up-in-arms about. Now, if it interferes with the career progress or professional respect of the person in question, that's a WHOLE different story...that is wholly unacceptable and must not be tolerated. This is a JOKE, it is FUN, and the moment it steps beyond that (for either party) it needs to stop. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 11:16:06 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: RE: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784426@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15548.20038.65260.64674@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Christopher Smith wrote: > > So, why don't you use a real mail client...? > > ... because restrictions here are such that they don't mind me > using their pipe for personal things in a limited manner, but > they really hate for people to put any software on their system > (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), > and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no > real mail client, in fact their installations of lookout(!) are > even more broken than usual. Oh, ouch... :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Apr 16 11:16:25 2002 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416110659.00aa9370@127.0.0.1> When you hear that the UPS guys are going through contract negotiations, stay away from shipping via UPS at all costs. I used to moonlight at a Radio Shack and we shipped a lot of items via UPS to and from the product warehouse and repair facilities, and UPS found a way to destroy too many things. Whenever I purchase something to be shipped, I always request ANYTHING other than UPS, usually USPS. USPS has a good track record (in my area) of getting things too me quickly and undamaged. For Federal employees - they do pretty good here. You should hear the FedEx ground people talk about UPS. Geez....... The stories are horrific. This will probably start a big Union vs. Anti-Union flamewar, but throughout my life, my experience is that you get much better quality and performance when a union is NOT involved. Automobiles are shining proof of that. - Matt At 11:05 AM 4/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > > weighs in at almost 80 pounds. Things inside are pretty bad but I would > > like to try and get it looking nice again, since the boards inside are > > damaged I do not think I can get it to work again. Does anyone on the > > list have repair manual for this model? I would like to see how he belts > > go around the pulleys inside the case. Thanks > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've >shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF >THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." >St. Petersburg, FL -Den Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/8a892b8d/attachment.html From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 11:13:26 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784428@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mzthompson@aol.com [mailto:Mzthompson@aol.com] > No doubt, Chris spent yesterday evening going through the > carload of stuff > I took over to him. I'll let him tell about that. Don't let him get Actually, I spent yesterday evening cleaning plaster dust out of my room, since the ceiling decided it was a good time to come loose in one spot, and fall down on my keyboard, minidisc player, apple newton, etc, etc... I did boot the NeXTStation (which now has a monitor cable and mouse, thanks to Mike), and get the XTerm talking to one of my other systems. (... Now if I can just figure out how to service XDMCP requests with GDM) > away with calling it his 'latest haul', because he didn't, it was > 'home delivery'. :) Indeed... > The big sour note, I recognized some single drive expansion > boxes. However, > the DEC badge had been replaced with a Compaq. Compaq > actually went to > the trouble of having the plastic badge inserts remade in their image. > Fortunately, I had not yet had lunch. Heh. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 16 11:16:43 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <02Apr16.124014edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've >shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF >THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? If FedEx dropped their price a little I think more people would use them vice UPS. Thankfully the SGI Indigo2 and 19" monitor I was waiting on arrived today by UPS and appears to have come through the ordeal at least physically intact. Then again, it was professionally custom boxed. My dealings with UPS has been less than satisfactory over the years though and I'd just as soon not deal with them if I could. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 11:20:03 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784427@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15548.20275.635502.489003@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Christopher Smith wrote: > Next, can anyone tell me why, after booting into single user mode, > and changing the root password with 'nu -m' I might still be > refused a login next time I boot? ... > A) It's getting another password from somewhere and overwriting the > one I put in? (I hope not.. :) It's been many years since I ran NeXTSTEP, so this might be useless...but does "nu" modify the netinfo database? If not, well, that might be the problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Apr 16 11:30:25 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784425@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: What Chris said said it best. I don't know her. She may or may appreciate the attempt at humor that seemingly has run a little long. I know very few women who are designers. And I know *alot* of designers. I'd hate to see someone get turned away because of perceived attitudes. By my take it should have ended about the comment that was something to effect of "Clone Jeri or the Commodore-1?". But then, one thing I have noticed about the list, besides being an excellent wealth of information and intelligent people, is that some don't know when to let something end. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:43 AM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: The CommodoreOne is near! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Chris Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] > > > Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. > > Um, I think this is getting pretty bad. On the other hand, I don't > know (nor have I any idea whether anyone does) the target of all of > this jest well enough to predict whether she'd have a problem with it. > > That said -- I will assume that "the industry" is on topic here and > continue along those lines for a minute -- I don't know whether this > is really an industry specific problem. It strikes me as occurring in > many different social settings. > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From red at bears.org Tue Apr 16 11:31:44 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:29 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.17532.512100.677424@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with > > the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen > > anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? > > I've had this happen in different states, so if it was a moron driver, > it must've been multiple moron drivers. Here's a data point for you. Recently I had a IBM 7133-020 SSA disk array (not on topic) shipped to me from a surplus vendor in Florida, somewhere. In typical IBM fashion it is a significant chunk of metal and weighs about 110 pounds. My UPS driver complained vociferously while he wrestled it out of the truck and up to my door. I would have, too. Anyway, I opened up the package and found the disk cabinet had been placed in the bottom of an otherwise empty box, with predictable results. http://www.bears.org/~red/7133/ The 'missing packaging' photo is essentially what things looked like when I opened the box. The rest of the photos detail the damage done. Clearly this is not the fault of UPS. I couldn't have filed an insurance claim, and it would've been unreasonable of me to have done so. The entire burden of the damage was on the bonehead shipper who didn't pack the thing. To the shipper's credit, he took responsibility and shipped me another one (again, in an otherwise-empty box (grr!) but which arrived, mercifully, intact). I have for years received packages regularly that have been shipped via UPS, and this is the only one that's had any sort of damage. Usually the packages are small, but not always. The point is, UPS publishes packaging guidelines. Use them and be happy. Based on my experience, I'd have to say that your gripes with UPS destroying packages might better be placed squarely on the inadequate use of packing materials. Of course, I'm leaving aside the time the driver left my brand-new Olympus E-10 in a white box in the snow in the middle of the driveway where I almost drove over it, in complete defiance of the 'must sign for' flag on the delivery slip... ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 08:52:30 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003b01c1e564$f04c3120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Programmers have been a problem for us, the users, as well as for the PLD vendors. That's why they'r so much behind the in-situ-programming features, and that's why they support it so happily. If you use THEIR hardware to program their device, there's never a problem. (or that's what they say) I bought a universal programmer in the late '80's that, according to the vendor, programmed the devices I wanted to use. After I had it, I found that it didn't program the parts, damaging them instead, and they were not cheap parts. I found that it was necessary to have adapters for many of the devices I wanted to program. I found that, while I'd bought a small, fit-in-the-briefcase programmer, I needed a sample case full of adapters, which were both costly and fragile. Some of the vendors of programmable logic do publish the algorithms for their ISP programming tools, which you can then implement in your own hardware/software combination. Unfortunately, I've seen no spec's on how to develop the configuration of the hardware. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 6:23 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Well, 'programming' a PAL (or a PROM) includes both selecting the fuse > > > you want to blow and then blowing it. IIRC (and it's been a long time > > > since I looked at this), actually blowing the fuse was _similar_ > > > (although not identical) for both PROMs and PALs. Selecting the desired > > > fuse was pretty different. > > > > > Back in the '70's, one used a Data I/O Model 29 (?) which was very expensive, > > and for which the software updates cost quite a bit. There were, however, > > That was one problem I had with GALs. I built the Elektor GAL programmer, > which worked pretty well. That was until the manufacturers changed the > spec of the GAL slightly, I then had to buy a software update (at least), > and maybe an add-on board. And then Elektor stopped supporting it, so I > was stuck with a programmer which could only program devices that were > next-to-impossible to obtain... > > > > But I still don't know of any PAL where you can take the fuse map (on a > > > computer), transform it if necessary and then upload it to a PROM-only > > > programmer that you've plugged the PAL into, And expect the PAL to work > > > at the end of it. > > > > > Well, if I had a PROM-only programmer, I'd interpret the designation of > > PROM-ONLY as meaning it was a waste of time to try to program a PAL with it. > > The whole point is, that before there were PALs, then all programmers > were PROM (or EPROM) only. But AFAIK no early PALs could be programmed in > such programmers, you had to buy/build a new one. > EPROMS, for some reason, didn't have these limitations. Programming was simple and the spec's were in many of the databooks. > > Let me give you an example where the converse is true, so you can > understand what I am getting at. The TMS7000 microcontroller. This can be > programmed as a 2764 EPROM, if you make a pin-swapping adapater. In other > words, if you wire the right pins on the microcontroller to a 28 pin > header, you can program it in any EPROM programmer. > There were several vendors, including both TI and Mitsubishi, who made parts that worked that way. > > So an EPROM-only programmer will program TMS7000s. > I see what you mean. However, most microcontroller makers provided simple means for you to program their field-programmable parts. Motorola had a number of devices that, if you applied the right signals at reset, would go into a bootloader that programmed the internal EPROM from the serial port. Others required you wire up a programming circuits with a source EPROM that their circuit downloaded to the internal program store. > > > > > However, the technique of selecting the fuse was the only real difference, > > electrically between the two device types, and that was described in the early > > app-notes. Unfortunately, the 1986 databook I have at my feet is not early > > Learn to read, please. I am not disputing it was documented (I have the > original MMI PAL databook and it's in there). I am disputing it's the > same as selected a bit in a normal bipolar PROM. > Which book would that be? > Does it surprise you that the access mode to the fuse array is different? It's a totally different device type. The means for "blowing" a fuse is the same, but the means of addressing the fuses is different, and changes with different device types. It's hardly worth considering, since you won't find many bipolar PALs any more. They've been replaced by GALs. Oddly enough, back in '84-'85, when these devices were new, the programming methods were documented. Now that there are many more varieties of these parts, the documentation's disappeared from their databooks. > > > Over the years, the makers of these devices have gotten tight-lipped about the > > programming algorithms because the home-built devices, even those built by > > knowledgable engineers, caused them such a service headache. If your local > > I have never understood this... > > The process of programming a fuse in a bipolar PROM and in a PAL is much > the same. Similary the process of programming a flash cell in a > microcontroller, a flash PROM and a GAL are also much the same as each > other. And yet most (but not all, agreed) microcontroller, flash PROM and > EPROM manufacturers do document their programming algorithms, but few, if > any, of the PLD manufacturers do. Why are PLDs the only devices that > cause support problems. > Believe me, I've got no idea, but that business of "support headaches" comes up every time I broach the subject with the factory applications guys. They probably feel they've got to protect their technology. One of the "universal" programmers I have had a programming language, which I obtained. The purpose of this thing was to allow one to write programs to implement new algorithms for new devices. It also allows one to add SSI/MSI and memory devices to the test library. Unfortunately, about the time I got that software, the mfg's became really difficult to deal with as far as their device programming algorithms were concerned. > > > > Will you please forget the 'serious work'. Will you please accept that > > > there are people who design and build electronic circuits for fun. This > > > appears to be an alien concept for you. > > > I'll do that when you quit suggesting that the entire industry and its > > nomenclature are wrong just because it doesn't suit the dabblers in obsolete > > Well, considering your beloved 'industry' can't agree on what these terms > mean (hint : I've seen manufacturers call something 'microcode' that > anyone else would call machine code for a microprocessor), I am not sure > anyone can be that arogant as to what the terms mean. > > And to claim that microcode is not a special case of a state machine is > plain wrong! > They'll listen to you when you become part of a market that uses 100K pieces per week of their various parts. In the meantime, you're just a hobbyist and not even a customer of theirs. You, and most other hobbyists, get your parts from the leavings of those guys who buy the 100K pieces per week, and then surplus out what they don't need. The industry doesn't care, even, that hobbyists exist. You're a retailer's customer. > > > > The current advances in processor speed have come largely from just > > > increasing the clock rate. There haven't been any major changes in CPU > > > design to use those clock cylces more efficiently.... > > > > > That's only a small part of the acceleration. The use of multiple piplelines > > accounts for much of the performance increase along with increased datapath > > width, and other little features. The gradual increase in interest in > > parallelism is also going to help quite a bit, so we'll be seeing even more > > pipelines in the future. > > > > > > But somebody stuck with old, slow, TTL, just might hit on some way to get > > > more performance out of it (because it's all they've got, and they need > > > the performnce). The trick they discover just might also be useful to > > > speed up ASICs (or FPGAs, or ...) > > > > > And just exactly HOW would they extract more performance from it? A new > > I've read some moronic statements on this list, but this is one of the > best (or worst)! > > Are you incapable of believing that the multiple pipelines you just > mentioned could not have been built in TTL. Of course they could. OK, > they'd not be as fast as an FPGA or ASIC implementation, but so what. > They would be faster than a traditional processor built in TTL. And that > would be enough to prove that the design worked, and that this was a way > of speeding up other processors. > They WERE built in TTL, back when TTL was the relevant technology and they had no better options. Even back then, it was more sensible to simulate the new architecture to see whether it really offered the enhancement it seemed to offer. If that worked out, hardware was built. Today, that hardware is built in a programmable hardware scheme of one sort or another. > > > architecture would require new software, both in development tools and in OS > > and as applications. Just verifying that their innovation would take several > > hundred lifetimes, and the generation of a full set of software would take > > that one individual working alone, until well after the next big-bang. > > Never underestimate what hobbyists can do. FWIW, plenty of hobbyists have > designed their own processors and produced at least a monitor program for > them. And it doesn't take that long. > So what? Every EE student has had to do that in order to get his sheepskin. It's part of a required course. Building his own processor and coming up with something useful are quite different. > > > > That's a lot of 'maybes', sure. And I don't think it's likely. But I also > > > don't think it's impossible... > > > > > It's highly unlikely, simply because it's WAY too much work to twiddle the > > hard-wiring and WAY too slow to use TTL, and uses WAY too much power so folks > > As I mentioned above (although you seem to be incapable of seeing it), > the actual speed doesn't matter. Just that it shows a significant speedup > over another architecture built with the same technology. > > > Also the power consumption is hardly a problem either. My old 11/45 has a > 250W PSU for the CPU boards (only). Many PC power supplies can now exceed > that. 2 or 3 PSUs taken from old PCs will power any TTL-based processor > you're likely to build. > a 9-volt battery is probably capable of powering any CPU I'd be likely to build. > > > doing serious development, even at the amateur level, use simulators to > > I will use a simulator when somebody makes one that I can trust. Meaning > that it passes all of my little test circuits. Since that's not happened > yet, I don't feel I can trust the results of the simulator. > Well, the industry has relied on them since back when I was in college. If you don't trust someone else's work, proven over two or three decades of constant use by hundreds of thousands of engineers, write one that's better. > > Even then, there's no reason to believe the traces from the simulator > have any relation to reality unless you've actually verified them against > a logic analyser. > So do that! I do it from time to time. > > > evaluate performance of new architectures, and programmable hardware to verify > > their findings. > > Some do, others don't. Period. > > > > > > That's not to say a person's WRONG in fiddling with discrete logic. It's just > > Well, I'm glad I'm not 'wrong' in your eyes. That would have really > worried me -- NOT! > > Incidentally, a board I am designing at the moment contains a > microcontroller, an 8 bit latch, a 3 to 8 decoder (for which a '138 is > _perfect_ with just the right enables), a 2 input AND, a 2 input NAND and > an inverter. Will you please tell me why a PLD is superior to a single > 74x00 for those last 3 gates? > It probably isn't, but you could, of course, reduce the entire combinatorial circuit to a small PLD, but I don't know the details. > > > not terribly likely to be of much use. Like masturbation, it's unlikely to > > hurt anyone and produces momentary amusement. > > It (TTL design) has kept me amused most of my life... > > > > And that's _exactly_ what building TTL circuits is for some of us. Now > > > will you please try to understand this! > > > > > I've got no problem with that. I do, however, disagree that the industry > > nomenclature is misapplied because it COULD or even SHOULD have been used > > differently. > > As I said above, even the industry can't agree on what some of these > terms mean... > > HP refer to the machine code for the NUT processor in the HP41 as > 'microcode' sometimes. In a sense it is, on the ground that the NUT + > this machine code forms an emulated processor that runs HP41 bytecodes. > But it's somewhat streching the definition. > > The PERQ hard disk controller (and ethernet interface for that matter) > consists of a 2910 sequencing a PROM (I think it's 24 bits wide, but I > doesn't really matter). The outputs of that PROM control various bits of > the data path for the disk controller (or ethernet interface). The > bitpatterns in that PROM are called 'microcode' in some documentation and > 'state machine' in other documentation. Which is correct? (IMHO both!). > Microcode was a term cooked up to distinguish between the code executed by the "micrologic" as it emulated the target system. It was a term essential to the concept on which some computers were built. A small, very fast, by comparison with the target, computer executes a program that implements the target architecture. Certainly not a ridiculous construct. This gave rise to questions about how one might implement a fast processor to execute the target task without a full implementatation of a target architecture separate from the microengine. Voila! ... now you have the RISC. > > DEC used to use the term 'microprocessor' to mean any simple processor > (often built from TTL, and very specialised in purpose, like a comms > controller) that ran microcode. This one I think is plain wrong, but... > Nomenclature is dated. Before the widespread acceptance of monolithic microprocessors, those made from microelectronics, TTL, for example were referred to in some environments, not just DEC, as microprocessors. If you had what was essentially a computer, CPU, ROM, RAM, etc, implementing a CPU, you had to have a term, microcode, for the code it executed. You had to have a well-defined language for such a beast, and software to manipulate it. The product of that software was the microcode. If you used AMD's tools, (AMDASM) you certainly had a development system you could use, if you chose to do so, and that gave you a means for producing microcode for your system. Of course, it was just the code used to implement the CPU you designed, and you had to produce tools for your target architecture yourself. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 09:46:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003c01c1e564$f0b0e660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, supply of costly parts is a problem. However, once you're in the process of designing a device, it's not helpful to be constrained by what you have or what you can easily get. In the '80's, there wasn't anything, TTL-wise, that was particularly hard to get, so you designed with the stuff as though you had it all at your disposal. Occasionally there would be shortages, with long lead-times, that fouled up delivery schedules and manufacturing. In '80 and '81, ISTR that 74LS38 and LS245 were in such demand that it didn't matter what you did, you were going to be impacted by the shortages. I designed the NS DP8304 in place of the '245 on one of my WW cards for the S-100 for just that reason. The end-user could install the DP8304 or an i8287 if he needed that buffer. Last month, I had to build a programmer for a microcontroller. It required only three components other than the MCU. There was an oscillator, a MAX232A, and a 74HCT125. I had no trouble getting a suitable oscillator, and I generally have a few MAX232's around. It took weeks to find the HCT125, though, given that I didn't want to pay $10 for shipping of a $.25 part. In the meantime, I'd built the thing with a GAL16V8. Overkill, well, true, but I didn't have to deal with the widespread search. Aside from the pinout, there's little you can't build in a 16V8 that would otherwise fit in a 20-pin packaged TTL part, and you don't have to search. The 16V8 cost around $0.60 last time I bought 'em, and is one of those parts for which the programming spec was published back in '85 or so. If you use a handful of gates and a decoder, you could just as easily use a 16V8 if it has enough outputs. Then, if you want to change the address of a given device, you just reprogram the part. That's always appealed to me. If you look at some of the popular SBC's of the late '70's and early '80's, you'll see that their decoding was based not so much on any orderly process of organization, but on what they could do with the mix of gates with which they'd arrived at a certain point. Now, it's a small thing, perhaps, but if you can define the addresses of your devices based on what you need rather than on what you can easily decode, I'd say that's an advantage. The Ampro Little Board, which works quite well in spite of what they did, BTW, is based on the notion that you are never going to expand it in any way. It's a reasonable assumption for a small SBC, but if you've ever attempted to add an HDC you quickly run into the fact that they ambiguously decoded several of their devices, and you have to be very sure of where you tread in the I/O space. It's not a big problem, since most folks wouldn't want to expand a circuit like that, but a PAL or two, had they been inexpensive and popular when the first Little Board was developed, would have taken care of that. It goes without saying, howver, that given that you can program a decoder into your PAL, you can decide where the I/O devices live and let the software generation begin on the first day, once you've postulated the device addresses, thereby shortening your time to market. Then, if software discovers some advantage in changing the device addresses, it can be done without any impact on parts count or device selection. It certainly doesn't work that way if you're designing with TTL, for which an inventory has to be established and maintained. Those "bean-counters" go nuts if you tell 'em you want to use a 7432 where you previously had a 7402, paticularly if you need to add rather than replace the part, and the guys doing the PCB layout won't be happy if you decide you want to use an otherwise unused inverter in U106 between gates in U12 and U15. These are small advantages, taken by themselves, but they clearly paint a picture of how programmable logic got to be so popular. As for prototyping quantities of Xilinx FPGA's, I doubt you'll find a TTL vendor as willing to give you samples as the Xilinx people are. This wasn't always the case, but if there's any chance you'll produce something that results in some business for them, or if there's any likelihood you'll publish an article based on some research you're doing, that might help promote some feature of their devices in an interesting way, they'll give you the device you need, and all the help you want, as well. Of course, they won't provide you development code to run on your PDP-5. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:56 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > True enough, but the concept was cooked up by someone in their back room or > > Fr the nth time, the same _ideas_ can be used with TTL, PALs, FPGAs, etc. > So if somebody does manage to come up with a real advance in processor > architecture, it won't matter if they happened to have worked it out > using a board of TTL chips... > > > lab back in the days when TTL was still leading edge technology, and nowadays, > > the most common remark about TTL is preceded by "where can I get a ..." > > Odd. I was in 3 electronic component shops in London today. All 3 had at > least some TTL chips in stock (one had a pretty good selection, the other > 2 had at least gates and D-types). None of them had any programmable > devices other than EPROMs. No PALs, no GALs, no PLDs > > When I was using Xilinx FPGAs in my job, one of the most common problems > was finding somebosdy who would sell you prototyping quanitites ('No, I > don't want to buy a tube of 15 of the PGA parts. Not at over 200 quid each!') > > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 11:42:45 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: RE: The CommodoreOne is near! (John Chris Wren) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784425@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15548.21637.497517.98639@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, John Chris Wren wrote: > What Chris said said it best. I don't know her. She may or may appreciate > the attempt at humor that seemingly has run a little long. I know very few > women who are designers. And I know *alot* of designers. I'd hate to see > someone get turned away because of perceived attitudes. That would be beyond terrible, yes. > By my take it should have ended about the comment that was something to > effect of "Clone Jeri or the Commodore-1?". Fair enough. > But then, one thing I have noticed about the list, besides being an > excellent wealth of information and intelligent people, is that some don't > know when to let something end. ...and some don't know when to relax. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 11:43:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CBB8FD8.7E700DF7@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005001c1e565$e4332820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's your privilege, Ben, but there's nothing to prevent you from preserving the software/hardware that effectively runs your software. If the software exists now, it will still exist in 5 years if you don't destroy it. If you want to run the software later, you do have to retain a machine that runs it, though. If it doesn't "require 1253 meg of crap to run" today, it won't require it later either. What's more, I'd guess that since few vendors are still making much of the TTL range that was available 20 years ago, it won't be better in 5 years. If you want to be able to design big circuits in the future, I'd recommend stocking up on NAND gates, billions of 'em, and lots of wire-wrap wire and sockets. Perfboard may not be readily available then either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 8:43 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Tony Duell wrote: > > > However, there's also a difference between 'not suporting' and > > 'preventing others from supporting'. I don't expect Philips or Intel to > > sell me an 8051 cross-assembler for linux (or for RT11, or...). But I can > > take the published datasheets and write an assembler. The information is > > there (opcode map, etc). But in the case of PLDs not only will the > > manufacturers not sell me software for my choice of OS (reasonable), they > > also won't provide the information to let me (or others) write that software. > > > I may go back to TTL ( but not sure yet ) because too the only > programing platform is windows ver ??? and 5 years down the road when I > want to do a upgrade, the software to program my computer is 1) not > around 2) will not run on my machine 3) require 1253 meg of crap to run, > 4) will need a new license. > > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 11:44:25 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: RE: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's (r. 'bear' stricklin) References: <15548.17532.512100.677424@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15548.21737.950906.543903@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > The 'missing packaging' photo is essentially what things looked like when > I opened the box. The rest of the photos detail the damage done. Clearly > this is not the fault of UPS. I couldn't have filed an insurance claim, > and it would've been unreasonable of me to have done so. The entire burden > of the damage was on the bonehead shipper who didn't pack the thing. To > the shipper's credit, he took responsibility and shipped me another one > (again, in an otherwise-empty box (grr!) but which arrived, mercifully, > intact). Hmm, does that vendor have any more of them? :) > The point is, UPS publishes packaging guidelines. Use them and be happy. > > Based on my experience, I'd have to say that your gripes with UPS > destroying packages might better be placed squarely on the inadequate use > of packing materials. My experience has been just the opposite, unfortunately. I rarely if ever receive anything that's been poorly packed, and I nearly always have problems with packages destroyed by UPS. I guess I'm just unlucky. :-/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Apr 16 12:01:56 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <3CBC4892.662EA4F0@rain.org> References: <200204160825.EAA28054@conman.org> <3CBC4892.662EA4F0@rain.org> Message-ID: <20020416170156.GA8924@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Marvin Johnston, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:51:46AM -0700: > Okay, let me modify my statement. On short messages, the bottom or in > line is fine; on longer messages, then the top is appropriate. Since the No it isn't. Only those people new to using the 'net believe such foolish nonsense. Trim as much text as possible out of messages that are being replied to, and don't waste everyone's disk space, time and bandwith by including needless quotes, such as entire long messages or even entire threads, below the reply. > only purpose of quoting is to keep things in context, why not keep the > responses on the top where they can be read ... unless they are If you can't read responses unless they're on top, you need to begin using different software. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 11:46:59 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: Re: TTL computing (Richard Erlacher) References: <003c01c1e564$f0b0e660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15548.21891.563098.17673@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Last month, I had to build a programmer for a microcontroller. It required > only three components other than the MCU. There was an oscillator, a MAX232A, > and a 74HCT125. I had no trouble getting a suitable oscillator, and I > generally have a few MAX232's around. It took weeks to find the HCT125, > though, given that I didn't want to pay $10 for shipping of a $.25 part. In > the meantime, I'd built the thing with a GAL16V8. Overkill, well, true, but I > didn't have to deal with the widespread search. Hmm, Mouser has 74HCT125s in stock at $0.40. They're in SO-14 packages, but they've got 'em. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 16 11:51:22 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784425@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CBC568A.4060609@dragonsweb.org> Christopher Smith wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Chris Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] > > >>Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. > > > Um, I think this is getting pretty bad. [...] Chris, no offense, but get a grip. I'm kicking myself for leaving room for any unintentional humor in my comment, but maybe people are reading things into this thread that just aren't necessarily there? That's a big problem with humor, why it is unprofessional and should be avoided in the workplace, and why I should have proofed myself better. How about we just drop this whole subject? Thanks, jbdigriz From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 11:44:17 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020416114231.035094d0@pc> At 11:05 AM 4/16/2002 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've >shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF >THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? I thought I'd carefully double-boxed a ~70 pound microtome, but it too suffered this sort of fate with UPS a year or so ago. Big nasty gash, like it had been dropped from a considerable height. Of course, UPS's first reaction is that "It wasn't packed properly." Not that you can tell based on the forensic examination of the remains, though. But I've also shipped some large ~70 pound tape backup libraries, and let Mailboxes Etc. do the double-boxing and foam or bubble wrap, and they had no trouble with UPS. Perhaps the lesson is "Double-box, and don't reuse boxes when shipping heavy items." - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 11:47:42 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020416114631.0323b7b0@pc> At 11:47 AM 4/16/2002 -0400, Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: >I then mentioned that selling a mess >of DELNI's for a few bucks to hobbyists was better than setting on a pallet >gathering dust. He went defensive on me, stating that as soon as he >does that, he will get a call from a faithful customer wanting dozens of >them. Yeah, and that would be so terrible if he had to unload all that dusty inventory. He's saving it for 2050, when the antique DEC market is scheduled to go sky-high. - John From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 16 11:54:42 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: > If FedEx dropped their price a little I think more people >would use them vice UPS. I don't do heavy FedEx Ground shipping (although I do heavey FedEx Express shipping, so the discount may carry over, I don't know), but in my limited uses of FedEx Ground, they are between $5 and $25 cheaper than UPS Ground depending on distance, weight, and size. -chris From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Apr 16 12:11:46 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784426@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784426@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020416171146.GB8924@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:48:39AM -0500: > (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), Alas, it's illegal to properly fix such problems with an appropriate LART. > and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no Why play by their rules? The more who do, the worse the problem will become for all of us. Let the biz'droid lusers know that their software is broken and that they need to pay an appropriate professional to fix their minds as well. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 12:01:32 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <000701c1e568$5c82a5b0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > From: Dave McGuire > > > > On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > > > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > > > weighs in at almost 80 pounds.. > > > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've > > shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF > > THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? > > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with > the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen > anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? He didn't mention whether it was residential or commercial delivery; with commercial/business dleivery, you usually end up establishing a relationship with the delivery person; as a result, I think those guys are more carefully because they're going to have to look you in the eye. OTOH, residential delivery drivers just dump the package and run... so in that case, I might suspect a delivery person. But I've seen videotapes of UPS employees offloading planes, and with one guy "going long" you can tell how respectful they are with stuff. And they were being quite jolly about it, too... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 16 12:03:37 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) References: <200204160825.EAA28054@conman.org> <3CBC4892.662EA4F0@rain.org> <20020416170156.GA8924@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3CBC5969.263C77A7@rain.org> Ignoring your flame bait, you need to realize that people have different styles of writing/responding. I've only been online for about 20 years, but "form over substance" is wrong regardless. "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > Quothe Marvin Johnston, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 08:51:46AM -0700: > > Okay, let me modify my statement. On short messages, the bottom or in > > line is fine; on longer messages, then the top is appropriate. Since the > > No it isn't. Only those people new to using the 'net believe such > foolish nonsense. Trim as much text as possible out of messages that > are being replied to, and don't waste everyone's disk space, time > and bandwith by including needless quotes, such as entire long messages > or even entire threads, below the reply. > > > only purpose of quoting is to keep things in context, why not keep the > > responses on the top where they can be read ... unless they are > > If you can't read responses unless they're on top, you need to begin > using different software. :-) From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 16 12:05:46 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665DE@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> <15548.18433.418344.331702@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CBC59EA.EFCDD26@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > > On April 16, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > >Any reasonably modern BSD-based system should have the md5 program > > >preinstalled. If not, you should be able to find it at > >I think you'll find he's running a much older > >version of BSD called W98 : > Hmm. Well, that's a problem that's easy to solve. :) Jerome Fine replies: Add one more "m" to your "Hmm" and it will be the same response that Hasimir Fenring manages to use in the Dune series. Seriously, I don't want to have to maintain my own internet system since I am much more interested in RT-11. Also, since Ersatz-11 runs under DOS/W95/W98, the W98 (Yeck) environment has become a default last resort. In any case, MD5 is available at: http://www.fourmilab.ch/md5/ Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 12:17:50 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) References: <3CBBDCFF.17958.11192F05@localhost> <3CBBC6C7.351E4791@rain.org> Message-ID: <007201c1e56a$a31c00a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> With the title following the content, one might lose the association with the prior thread. Putting the original message at the top and the reply at the bottom has the problem you mention, and putting the reply at the top and the quoted message at the bottom makes the thread hard to follow, particularly as there are often forks in the discussion. Following them is often a problem in itself, which, among others, Tony Duell handles at times by splitting his replies based on the subject. Unfortunately, there's still no easy way to track the context if the title is to serve a a pointer to the thread that contained the original "fork" in the thread. Embedding replies to individual points in the quoted post addresses these problems to greater or lesser satisfaction, but requires quoting more of the original text in order to bind the questions to the answers. A change in the subject line would make it difficult to follow a prolific thread by search. A search of all the messages for a given text string produces too many hits on unrelated threads, since we all tend to use similar phrases at times. What's a guy to do? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:37 AM Subject: Re: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) > > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. It is > especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the message > content ... which is most of the time. > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > > > about the inability to format e-mail responses > > > > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > > > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > > > > Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? > > > Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed > > > throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational > > > style . . . > > > > I absolutly agree. Especialy with series of replys llike > > we have the embedded style helps a lot. I considere the > > 'Top-Style' as rude. > > > > Gruss > > H. > > > > -- > > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 12:19:44 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <000f01c1e56a$e6c26c40$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > > So, why don't you use a real mail client...? > > ... because restrictions here are such that they don't mind me > using their pipe for personal things in a limited manner, but > they really hate for people to put any software on their system > (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), > and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no > real mail client, in fact their installations of lookout(!) are > even more broken than usual. My requirement for mail clients that would be used here at work includes most importantly that they be MAPI-enabled e-mail clients. If you have to ask why, the answer is: our line of business application is a Windows-only application, and we find that by sticking exclusively to Windows-based applications, we achieve a high rate of integration between all our systems, and more importantly, between all our lusers, er, users. The shorter version of that ansnwer is: groupware. I'd be interested in seeing what e-mail clients Dave and others use *THAT ARE MAPI-ENABLED*. Not a criterium for most of you perhaps, but it is for me. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 12:19:27 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) References: Message-ID: <007e01c1e56a$dcc3d440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ... and mixing these techniques tends to make things more difficult. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:12 AM Subject: Re: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > > From: John Foust > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > > > > about the inability to format e-mail responses > > > > > in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > > > > now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > > > > > > > Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp > > > > posts? Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments > > > > interspersed throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, > > > > more conversational style . . . > > > > > > I absolutly agree. Especialy with series of replys llike we have the > > > embedded style helps a lot. I considere the 'Top-Style' as rude. > > > > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. > > Then I guess you will have to deal with people like myself reformatting > your emails when replying. I personally can't stand to see an email thread > with mostly proper quoting where someone replies at the top. Several email > lists I'm on have an enforced rule that email must be quoted and threaded > properly. > > To date, all of the email etiquette information I've read states that a > reply should always follow the quoted text, with the authors' names at the > very top. Quotes should also be trimmed down, sometimes to just one > author's text. Any extra or unnecessary quoted text (including sigs) > should be removed to save bandwith. > > > It is especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the > > message content ... which is most of the time. > > If the subject of a thread changes significantly, the subject line should > be modified accordingly. A modified subject line should typically include > _at least_ 1/3-1/2 of the original subject line text, prefixed by 'was', > and surrounded by parentheses. The current subject line is a good example. > > -Toth > > From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Apr 16 12:39:53 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784424@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784424@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020416173953.GC8924@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:25:54AM -0500: > $(*& mail client tries to shove down my throat -- I do that both > because I just don't have the time to write a well-formatted reply, > and because it is not that offensive. Your point is? Let me take a guess: you feel that your time is more important than anyone else's time, disk space and bandwidth. As to it not being offensive, let's just say that there are people in this world who don't bathe or use deodorants who don't think they're offensive to others. > Sure, in a perfect world, that's great, but I've seen some very > informative posts that don't follow these rules. Would you just dump > them? You're certainly not going to talk everybody into following all > of these rules all of the time. For many years most Usenet posts and e-mail did follow such rules, then, the 'net became "popular;" the world wasn't perfect back then either, but most users of the 'net at that time were more likely to be more intelligent, or at least better educated, than the average person running loose in our society. > fixed), I'll shut up now. Good. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 12:20:33 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784429@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > It's been many years since I ran NeXTSTEP, so this might be > useless...but does "nu" modify the netinfo database? If not, well, > that might be the problem. Um... I have no idea. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 16 12:26:25 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> <02Apr16.124014edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3CBC5EC1.8090909@dragonsweb.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: >> I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've >> shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF >> THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? > > > If FedEx dropped their price a little I think more people would use > them vice UPS. Thankfully the SGI Indigo2 and 19" monitor I was waiting > on arrived today by UPS and appears to have come through the ordeal at > least physically intact. Then again, it was professionally custom > boxed. My dealings with UPS has been less than satisfactory over the > years though and I'd just as soon not deal with them if I could. > > Jeff I've never had a problem with UPS. The only thing that arrived damaged here via UPS had been packed atrociously, was originally addressed to the wrong destination in another state, and, I suspect, was trashed to begin with. I'll forgo the details, since I don't have proof of that last, but I don't recall ever seeing the party in question here, at least. I once worked in a largish warehouse where we got stuff via UPS every day. No problems with UPS then, either. jbdigriz From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 12:24:14 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Chris Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] > But then, one thing I have noticed about the list, > besides being an > excellent wealth of information and intelligent people, is > that some don't > know when to let something end. You can count me in that category. I wonder whether it's typical of the kind of person you'd find on this list? As a general observation, technical types tend to push things further than most people appreciate in several cases. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Apr 16 12:27:33 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <165.bcbbf06.29edb905@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/2002 12:12:37 PM Central Daylight Time, dquebbeman@acm.org writes: > > > > > From: Dave McGuire > > > > > > On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > > > > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > > > > weighs in at almost 80 pounds.. > > > > > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've > > > shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF > > > THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? > > > > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with > > the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen > > anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? > > He didn't mention whether it was residential or commercial delivery; > with commercial/business dleivery, you usually end up establishing > a relationship with the delivery person; as a result, I think those > guys are more carefully because they're going to have to look you > in the eye. > > OTOH, residential delivery drivers just dump the package > and run... so in that case, I might suspect a delivery person. > > But I've seen videotapes of UPS employees offloading planes, > and with one guy "going long" you can tell how respectful > they are with stuff. And they were being quite jolly about > it, too... > > -dq > I ordered a NIC from a company and it shipped inside a bigger box shipped UPS. One corner of the box was crushed to 50% of its original height. Thankfully the NIC was far from damaged. I should have taken a picture of that box just to show what UPS does. They don't give a *(&* about the packages. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/066a847b/attachment.html From red at bears.org Tue Apr 16 12:38:45 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784429@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > It's been many years since I ran NeXTSTEP, so this might be > > useless...but does "nu" modify the netinfo database? If not, well, > > that might be the problem. > > Um... I have no idea. :) Accept that this machine used to be a NetInfo client, which is why things aren't working right now. What you want to do is reset NetInfo to its default configuration. I can write a procedure up for you when I get home tonight, unless somebody else does it sooner. ok r. From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 12:42:00 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the > monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal > "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the > monitor? It is just bright enough not to strain your eyes at > the highest brightness setting right now... (It's B&W) I have always assumed that the electrons just kick the sh*t out of the phosphor, and the the phosphor just dies... but I hope that's wrong, and that something can indeed be adjusted or replaced (other than the daggone tube itself). -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 12:39:46 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: James B. DiGriz [mailto:jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org] > > Um, I think this is getting pretty bad. [...] > Chris, no offense, but get a grip. I'm kicking myself for > leaving room > for any unintentional humor in my comment, but maybe people > are reading > things into this thread that just aren't necessarily there? Perhaps -- I think you're reading more into my comment than was necessarily there. :) (Given that you stripped the entire qualifying couple of paragraphs out...) I have no problem with your comment, myself, or others' comments for the most part. I was only implying that I think we should try not to offend most people too much. Of course it won't always work, but such is life. In other words, Dave and Sridhar can say whatever they like one to the other, all in jest, and it can be understood as such. No problem. It's not so good when the target of the jest, or even a third party -- JCW in this case -- can misunderstand that jest to be disrespect. Anyway, I, for one, wouldn't want somebody making inflatable likenesses of myself... ;) > That's a big > problem with humor, why it is unprofessional and should be avoided in > the workplace, and why I should have proofed myself better. I think that's a bit too general. Certainly there's nothing you could possibly say that wouldn't offend _somebody_. > How about we just drop this whole subject? Hmm -- Ok. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Apr 16 05:29:58 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: NEC V20 and Rainbow (was: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CBBB6D6.22461.44D1DE@localhost> I would be interested in seeing the mod documentation when you find it. I keep hoping I'll find a cheap stash of V-20s to use on about 3 or 4 of my boxes, altho they come up fairly reasonable on EPay from time to time. Hows the Stylewriter project going ? Lawrence > Lawrence wrote: > > > On the Rainbow I saw mention of either an EPROM mod (it's documented > >according to www.old-computers.com) or choosing the OS on start-up. I can't > >remember the boot-up choice on my 'bow and it's buried right now. > > Boot-up choice is made by telling the system which disk to boot > from. But you don't get to that choice unless you modify the boot PROM (I > think not EPROM) to account for the V20's faster (fewer cycles) execution > of a timing loop. The modification is documented, I think it's in Rainbow > News and I can dig it out in a couple weeks if anyone is interested. > For purposes of the original thread, modifying a Rainbow is > needless, because it already includes a Z-80 (4 MHz) in addition to the > 8088 (4.mumble MHz), and will run Dec CP/M-80/86. It probably makes a > pretty good platform for anyone wishing to cross-develop from MS-DOS (up to > 3.10b) to CP/M. > For hot-rodding purposes, the V-20 mod is recommended by Rainbow > News as a good way to get more speed out of the Rainbow. > - Mark > > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Apr 16 05:29:58 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020416081639.0332f348@pc> References: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3CBBB6D6.11935.44D20B@localhost> I remember my old Blue Wave offline reader would admonish you if the reply was more than 50% quote. I vary from top to bottom to interleaved according to the message. The bottom line is whatever's the best to communicate the message. Altho unlike this, I do prefer top quoting. Lawrence > At 12:48 AM 4/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >> From: John Foust > > > >> Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > >> about the inability to format e-mail responses > >> in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > >> now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > > >Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? > >Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed > >throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational > >style . . . > > You did fine. :-) When I see the entire message quoted > (with headers) and no white space between the quoted > text and the new comments, my eyes glaze over. > > If there's a relevant passage, quote it, comment on it > and be done with it. If you think for a moment there's a > need to quote the entire previous message, then erase it all > and begin pontificating. Don't do both. > > - John > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Apr 16 05:29:57 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: References: <3CBB5D0C.27168.1EC3027@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBBB6D5.475.44D1AC@localhost> No. Peter Wendt's program for MCA cards is truly excellent and has supplied the ADF for many unknown cards of mine but it didn't have this one. As a fan of MCA I've generally snapped up any I see, and most of the time with no documentation. Lawrence > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > > > > > I also have an unknown MCA board by Pure Data copyrighted 1987 with > > > > 4 BNC connectors. I had thought it might be an arcnet (which IIRC > > > > PD was heavily involved with) board. Some sort of hub on a card. > > > > > > What kind of chips does it have on it? Usually you can identify a these > > > kinds of boards based on the chips they use. > > > > It's looks like a fairly simple board and there are no significant > > chips that you can see. The 4 port section chips and components are > > encased in black plastic-like material, similar to what I've seen on > > other NICs, each on it's own section of the board. It does have 4 LEDs > > on the face of the card. To indicate activity I imagine. I tried Peter > > Wendts MCA card i.d. program to no avail. > > That does sound like an arcnet card, although it could also be some sort > of data acquisition interface. Many arcnet cards do have an epoxy encased > module for some of the media interface circuitry. > > Do you have the .adf file for this board? > > -Toth > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 12:46:02 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: RE: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's (Douglas H. Quebbeman) References: <000701c1e568$5c82a5b0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15548.25434.739450.794585@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > He didn't mention whether it was residential or commercial delivery; > with commercial/business dleivery, you usually end up establishing > a relationship with the delivery person; as a result, I think those > guys are more carefully because they're going to have to look you > in the eye. > > OTOH, residential delivery drivers just dump the package > and run... so in that case, I might suspect a delivery person. All residential deliveries...but as far as being on the receiving end, I work from home and usually see the driver in person, and I *always* establish a relationship with the drivers for all the services that deliver packages to my house. > But I've seen videotapes of UPS employees offloading planes, > and with one guy "going long" you can tell how respectful > they are with stuff. And they were being quite jolly about > it, too... Fear. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 12:54:15 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <002901c1e56f$b927d310$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:48:39AM -0500: > > (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), > > Alas, it's illegal to properly fix such problems with an appropriate > LART. > > > and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no > > Why play by their rules? The more who do, the worse the problem will > become for all of us. Let the biz'droid lusers know that their > software is broken and that they need to pay an appropriate > professional to fix their minds as well. Dang, RD, I was ready to quote your reply to Marvin with a big uppercase DITTO MAN!, then you go and say something like this... Gotta respect ya, you sure don't mince words... OTOH, when we bought those 25 Dells at Christmas, I drew the line on new software; we got Win 2000, not Win XP, and I tried like hell to get Office 2000 instead of Office XP, even to the point of trying to get TPTB buy Office 2000 at a local Marketpro show. But they like that one-stop shopping... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 12:55:54 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa Message-ID: <003101c1e56f$f4a18080$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Jerome Fine replies: > > Add one more "m" to your "Hmm" and it will be the same response > that Hasimir Fenring manages to use in the Dune series. > > Seriously, I don't want to have to maintain my own internet system > since I am much more interested in RT-11. Also, since Ersatz-11 > runs under DOS/W95/W98, the W98 (Yeck) environment has become > a default last resort. Are/were you an Ersatz-11 beta tester, or are you rich? I thought it cost US$3K. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 12:58:56 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 > > because I just don't have the time to write a well-formatted reply, > > and because it is not that offensive. > Your point is? Let me take a guess: you feel that your time is more > important than anyone else's time, disk space and bandwidth. As to it I don't have any say over anyone else's time, but I certainly do my best not to take much of it. If I can save them 20 minutes of work, at the expense of reading a poorly formatted email, why not offer the choice? As for disk space, you'll note (I hope) that even the most terribly formatted of my posts usually have all of the cruft clipped out of them. In addition you'll note that (yes, as a courtesy to anyone who might be reading) I tend to strip out other peoples' formatting mistakes when I reply too. My point is that even though I usually do these things, and even though I probably put more work into it than most other people due to this piece of microsoft trash that I'm using as a mail client, I don't agree that these rules ought to be enforced short of using social pressure when it's appropriate. Did you really not get that from my last post? (I'm not being condescending here, I'm really curious as to whether I missed the mark in trying to lay that out...) > not being offensive, let's just say that there are people in this > world who don't bathe or use deodorants who don't think they're > offensive to others. Indeed, and I generally wouldn't associate with them for the health of my own nose. If a poorly formatted post is that offensive to you, then certainly you're welcome to not read it, and you will either gain time, or lose one of a number of other things because of it. I won't say that it's right or wrong. > For many years most Usenet posts and e-mail did follow such rules, Most still do, at least the ones that I read. Some don't, and of those, most have no good reason not to -- I'll grant that. I still believe that because exceptions to that rule exist, enforcement of the rule ought to take that into account. > then, the 'net became "popular;" the world wasn't perfect back then > either, but most users of the 'net at that time were more likely to be > more intelligent, or at least better educated, than the average > person running loose in our society. It's a shame that's not the case any more, certainly. So how about that classic cmp UUCP network? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 16 13:04:10 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <3CBC5EC1.8090909@dragonsweb.org> References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> <02Apr16.124014edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3CBC5EC1.8090909@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <02Apr16.142733edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I've never had a problem with UPS. The only thing that arrived >damaged here via UPS had been packed atrociously, was originally >addressed to the wrong destination in another state, and, I suspect, >was trashed to begin with. A large percentage of all monitors shipped to/from me in the past have been either heavily damaged or destroyed by UPS and they were well packed. I had a Mac blue/white G3 shipped to me last year when I decided to change machines and UPS shattered one of the plastic side panels. It was in the original shipping carton and styrofoam inserts. They also banged my DECmate II around enough in transit that the drive rails broke apart as well as destroying the VR201 that shipped in a seperate box. Don't get me wrong, they've delivered a lot of stuff undamaged as well but when it comes to the things they do manage to damage, the packing used has little to do with it. I've gotten a number of things that looked like it fell off the back of a truck. Even with the form fitting high-density foam that surrounded the heavy packages that arrived today, I doubt if they would have survived something like that. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From red at bears.org Tue Apr 16 13:05:59 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the > > monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal > > "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the > > monitor? > > I have always assumed that the electrons just kick the sh*t > out of the phosphor, and the the phosphor just dies... but I > hope that's wrong, and that something can indeed be adjusted > or replaced (other than the daggone tube itself). >From the comp.sys.next FAQ: 5.23 How to adjust MegaPixel Display brightness and focus? brightness, MegaPixel focus, MegaPixel Adjust it using the following information. From: Charles William Swiger I have adjusted several monitors with no problems, but make sure you know what you are doing before opening anything. I expressly disclaim responsibility for any ill results that may occur. In order to adjust NeXT's MegaPixel display (called 'the monitor' hereafter), you'll need (a) the NeXTtool (or a 3mm Allen wrench), (b) a plastic adjustment tool (preferred) or a thin bladed screwdriver, and possibly (c) a Phillips-head screwdriver. (NB: A similar procedure will work for color monitors, but you should either know what you're doing or you'll probably be better off letting a pro deal with it.) Turn off the computer. Disconnect all cables to the monitor. Look at the back of the monitor. There will be 4 screws there; use the NeXTtool (or Allen wrench) to remove them. Remove the plastic back of the monitor and put it out of your way. Reconnect the cables and turn the computer back on. As the machine powers up, examine the back of the monitor. You'll see a metallic box (usually silver, though some are black) surrounding the monitor's vitals. This protects you against the dangerous voltages inside, and also insulates the monitor from electromagnetic noise. On the back of this box are several holes for performing adjustments. There are two focus controls (labeled 'focus' and 'dynamic focus'), a brightness control (labeled 'brightness' or possibly 'black level') and several others that adjust various things like screen size and position. Depending on the exact placement of the controls on the circuit board of your specific monitor, some of these controls may be difficult (or impossible) to adjust from the back. If this is the case, I will describe what's necessary below. Otherwise, adjust the appropriate controls using either an adjustment tool or a screwdriver. Be warned that a screwdriver probably will cause some interesting video effects when it enters the case. Ignore this the best you can, or find a plastic adjustment tool, which is what you *really* should be using anyway. Using a flashlight will help you see into the hole so that you can align the business end of the tool correctly. Focus and position controls are fairly obvious. Adjust them slowly until you're happy with the results. Don't muck with anything you don't need to; the factory settings are usually pretty decent. To correctly adjust the brightness, follow this procedure: Turn the brightness of the monitor all the way down using the keyboard. Adjust the brightness control on the back of the monitor until a barely noticeable picture forms. Then turn the brightness down a little so this picture disappears completely. Check that you can get adequate brightness by using the keyboard to brighten the screen. If the display isn't bright enough, adjust the brightness control on the rear of the monitor high enough so that the monitor display is adequate. Note that you won't be able to dim the screen completely from the keyboard...sorry. Once you're finished, shut down the computer, take off the cables, reattach the back of the monitor, and reconnect the cables. You're done. If the control you need to adjust proves to be difficult, you may need to enter the metal case. This happened on one monitor's focus control and another's brightness. WARNING: THE VOLTAGES INSIDE THE MONITOR'S CASE ARE VERY DANGEROUS, EVEN WHEN THE MONITOR IS OFF. BE VERY CAREFUL, OR YOU CAN SERIOUSLY INJURE OR EVEN KILL YOURSELF. DO NOT PERFORM THE NEXT INSTRUCTIONS UNLESS YOU ARE CONFIDENT THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. You'll have to power off the computer again, and disconnect the cables. Looking at the monitor from the back, notice a section of metallic shielding on the right side of the metal box that extends to the picture tube. This is where the flyback transformer is connected. It shields a wire that is charged to about 25,000 V. WARNING: DO NOT TOUCH THIS WIRE, IT CAN SHOCK YOU THROUGH ITS INSULATION. Being very careful of this, remove the metal case by unscrewing the Philip's head screws that hold the case on. Don't touch the screws that hold the picture tube into the front of the monitor's case. Once you've gotten the metal box off, reconnect the cables. Figure out what control you're going to adjust, and make sure that you can do so without touching anything else inside. Again, *watch out* for the wire that connects to the picture tube on the right side. Power up the computer. I recommend that you use only one hand to make the adjustment, and that your other hand be placed in your pocket (or similar equivalent, if you're wearing clothes lacking pockets). This precaution reduces the chances that you'll make a short circuit between one hand, your heart, and the other hand --- a good idea. Perform the necessary adjustment(s), being very careful not to touch anything inside. Then shut down and reassemble the monitor, following the directions given above. Hopefully, these instructions will prove useful. Once again, please be very careful...I don't want your death and/or injury on my conscience (or a lawsuit, for that matter, either :-) 5.44 What makes aged NeXT monitors dim? monitor, dim The cause of the dimming monitors is the CRT cathode wearing out. The most common type of CRT (and the type used in most NeXT monochrome monitors and all of the NeXT color monitors) uses what is called an oxide cathode. A thin coating of oxide is deposited on the cathode to allow the electronics which form the picture to get off the cathode easily. The oxide gradually boils off the cathode itself, and when the oxide is gone, the CRT goes dim. Typically, the oxide will last from 10,000 to 20,000 power on hours (screen savers don't help the cathode, they only prevent phosphor aging). Unfortunately, the black monochrome monitors fall into the short end of the life range thanks to Toshiba who made the CRT's. The aging is more noticeable in Unix machines because they tend to be left on. Note that there are about 8,000 hours in a year. If you leave your monitor on all the time, all oxide type CRTs will be dim in three years. The other type of CRT cathode is the I-cathode or dispenser type. This type of cathode is porous and continually brings new activation material to the surface. Its lifetime is 40,000 hours or more. The last of the NeXT monochrome monitors (N4000B) used this type of CRT and they don't go dim. There aren't many of that type around because NeXT quit the hardware business after producing only a few thousand. If you can get an N4000B monitor, you won't ever have to worry about a dim monitor. Many manufacturers are going to dispenser cathode type CRTs in their monitors with Panasonic leading the way. The best advice is to turn off the monitor when not in use. If that is impractical, try to purchase one with the long life cathode. Spherical Solutions (smg@orb.com) has a supply of new N4000B long life monitors for sale in either ADB or non-ADB configurations. If you need to repair or replace a monochrome monitor, that is by far the best type to use. If you read this far, you probably know more than you ever wanted to about CRT aging, but I hope this helps. HTH ok r. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 16 13:04:18 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > > and I'm really trying to play by their rules. They have no > Why play by their rules? The more who do, the worse the problem will > become for all of us. Let the biz'droid lusers know that their > software is broken and that they need to pay an appropriate > professional to fix their minds as well. Indeed I would tell them if they would listen to me. As it is, I have agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that until they make more sane rules. In other words, when I took their job, I gave them my word. I don't believe I can count on them to fix these problems on my account. After all, they don't impair my work -- all of our clients use this junk too. (Sad, but what can you do about it?) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 16 13:17:36 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> References: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <02Apr16.144101edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the >> monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal >> "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the >> monitor? It is just bright enough not to strain your eyes at >> the highest brightness setting right now... (It's B&W) > >I have always assumed that the electrons just kick the sh*t >out of the phosphor, and the the phosphor just dies... but I >hope that's wrong, and that something can indeed be adjusted >or replaced (other than the daggone tube itself). The above basically sums it up. Those early B/W NeXT mono monitors have very short lifespans. Couple that with not being able to turn off the monitor seperately from the computer and you can then see why most of them are pretty dim. This comes up on Usenet quite a bit still. Once they're dim, they're dim. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 16 13:28:53 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the > > monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal > > "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the > > monitor? It is just bright enough not to strain your eyes at > > the highest brightness setting right now... (It's B&W) > > I have always assumed that the electrons just kick the sh*t > out of the phosphor, and the the phosphor just dies... but I > hope that's wrong, and that something can indeed be adjusted > or replaced (other than the daggone tube itself). Phosphors do lose efficiency but I dont think that is the main problem. I think mainly the cathode loses emission. This can temporarily be improved by CRT rejuvinators or raising the heater voltage (I'm old enough to remember the old cylindrical autotranformer picture tube brightenters that you stacked on the old B-W TV CRTS: they basically raised the heater voltage a little bit, squeezing a little more life out of the CRT) > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > Peter Wallace From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 16 13:33:08 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's References: <00e001c1e54a$86314100$33000240@default> <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> <02Apr16.124014edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3CBC5EC1.8090909@dragonsweb.org> <02Apr16.142733edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3CBC6E64.5090507@dragonsweb.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > A large percentage of all monitors shipped to/from me in the past > have been either heavily damaged or destroyed by UPS and they were well > packed. I had a Mac blue/white G3 shipped to me last year when I > decided to change machines and UPS shattered one of the plastic side > panels. It was in the original shipping carton and styrofoam inserts. > They also banged my DECmate II around enough in transit that the drive > rails broke apart as well as destroying the VR201 that shipped in a > seperate box. > > Don't get me wrong, they've delivered a lot of stuff undamaged as > well but when it comes to the things they do manage to damage, the > packing used has little to do with it. I've gotten a number of things > that looked like it fell off the back of a truck. Even with the form > fitting high-density foam that surrounded the heavy packages that > arrived today, I doubt if they would have survived something like that. > > Jeff Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never seen anything like that. The terminal I mentioned had been literally wrapped in a form-fitting shell of flattened boxes, with zero padding or insulation other than a couple of odd sheets of newspaper. The CRT was busted off the base, several cracks in the case, and keys all over the place. Bits and pieces that should have been there if it had been intact to start with were missing, but it's possible they slipped out an opening in the packaging, I guess. I used to live next door to a gal who delivered for UPS. Maybe she put in a good word for me or something. jbdigriz From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Apr 16 13:30:35 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Huge Nortel Web Auction this week. Message-ID: <3CBC277B.7597.70DCDE@localhost> Just ran across this in the Montreal Gazette. Nortel Networks Corp. has put up for auction untold millions of dollars worth of computers, test equipment, office phone systems, photocopiers and tool kits it once used in St. Laurent and Florida to build Internet equipment for which demand has evaporated. The auction will be Webcast - on http://www.dovebid.com - Thursday and Friday, starting at 9 a.m. A Montreal-area preview day tomorrow will allow potential buyers to physically examine the local assets, not just massive quantities of high-end electronic gear but also fork-lift trucks, heaters, air-compressors and more than 230 Dell laptop computers, PCs and servers. Nortel is conducting a similar preview day at another plant in Boca Raton, Fla. The St. Laurent plant builds Internet transmission equipment and had 6,000 people on its payroll in mid-2000, a figure Quigley estimated has been cut in half. Its gates, on the south side of the Trans-Canada Highway, will be open between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. "Please watch for auction signs," DoveBid's Web site instructs out-of-town buyers coming to see for themselves. Lawrence lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 13:34:57 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa In-Reply-To: <3CBC4C78.3E52AD43@Vishay.com> Message-ID: <3CBC7CE1.26865.1A270442@localhost> > can we count Germany as part of the UK (just for the moment, of > course) > This I can do, email with details is heading your way :) greg From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 16 13:36:11 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <02Apr16.142733edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I've never had a problem with UPS. The only thing that arrived > >damaged here via UPS had been packed atrociously, was originally > >addressed to the wrong destination in another state, and, I suspect, > >was trashed to begin with. > > A large percentage of all monitors shipped to/from me in the > past have been either heavily damaged or destroyed by UPS and they > were well packed. I had a Mac blue/white G3 shipped to me last year > when I decided to change machines and UPS shattered one of the > plastic side panels. It was in the original shipping carton and > styrofoam inserts. They also banged my DECmate II around enough in > transit that the drive rails broke apart as well as destroying the > VR201 that shipped in a seperate box. > > Don't get me wrong, they've delivered a lot of stuff > undamaged as well but when it comes to the things they do manage to > damage, the packing used has little to do with it. I've gotten a > number of things that looked like it fell off the back of a truck. > Even with the form fitting high-density foam that surrounded the > heavy packages that arrived today, I doubt if they would have > survived something like that. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > I think I mentioned it before relative to UPS but I once shipped a 19" monitor from here (California) to Virginia IICRC. The monitor made it fine to the guys driveway (He was watching as the UPS driver pulled up) It was being kicked off the back of the UPS truck onto the asphalt driveway that destroyed the monitor. Pretty hard to pack anything (thats big or heavy) to withstand that... Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 13:42:59 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:30 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <00c101c1e576$88ac9d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This item is getting to be rather large... see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:39 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > This argument is still over the same things about which we always end up > > arguing, namely how things SHOULD or COULD be, vs. how they are. What's > > possible clearly isn't as important in the world in which I live as what's > > REAL. > > And I think that's the big difference between us. You're happy to carry > on with the 'standard stuff' (OK, it pays the bills). I am not. I want to > try things out. If I think of something that 'should be', then I at least > want to investigate it. > > I've got dozens of bits of stripboard containing experimental circuits I > made just for the hell of it. Things like a base -2 full adder. A circuit > that cyclically permutes 3 voltage levels : > > Input Output > 0 V/2 > V/2 V > V 0 > > with suitable thresholds. 3 of those in a ring make a stable 3-state > circuit (aka a flip-flap-flop), just as 2 NOT gates in a ring > make a stable 2 state circuit. And so on... > I'm curious in what way doing this sort of thing in discrete logic has over doing it in programmable hardware. (Take a look at the field-programmable analog hardware offered at Lattice, for example.) As for the technique itself, I remember reading that Siemens had some hardware that did this sort of thing about 20 years ago, so there's plenty been written about it. > > > > > I live and die on what's real. Engineers don't get paid for coming up with > > things that SHOULD be. The things that exist only in the subjunctive don't > > Which implies, I guess, that you don't believe there will ever be any new > ideas. > It doesn't imply that at all. It does suggest, however, that if you're trying to exploit new thinking, you shouldn't be weighed down with archaic implementation techniques. If you have a concept you want to explore, you ought to be able to convince yourself of its validity by thinking it through, the verify that validity with extensive simulation (which you clearly don't believe useful, in spite of the fact the rest of the world has accepted it, then implement it in a programmable hardware testbed because that doesn't require you to buy an specific hardware, and then stress it in various ways to determine its sensitivities. Building just one example of a circuit would not really prove that the design is sound. It only proves that you can make it work ... once. > > > pay my bills. > > > > For combinatorial circuits, having outputs just means having > > > times the complexity. So for the purposes of discussion it's reasonable > > > just to consider one output (this applies to both PROMs and PALs). > > > > > > > share product terms, there are limitations on the common small PALs. > > However, > > > > if you choose a device comparable to the PROM, they'll do it. > > > > > > You were the one who started off claiming a PAL was simpler than a PROM. > > > Now you're claiming that 'if yuu pick a comparable device it'll do it'. > > > I'll agree with that. If the device is sufficiently complex, it doesn't > > > matter which matrix (AND or OR) is programmable. But the complexity of > > > the device (and the number of bits taken to program it) will be > > > comparable for a complete PROM with 2^n locations and a PAL capable of > > > generating _any_ combinatorial function of n inputs. > > > > > It is MUCH simpler in its application. Most of the time, though a PAL has, > > say, 16 inputs, you use three or four of them for a given output, and you use > > a couple of the outputs in feedback. You use the internal registers because > > that way you don't have to wire the feedback externally, nor do you have to > > surrender PROM address inputs in order to use them, since they're already > > connected. The reason they "get by" with a relatively small fuse array, is > > because you generally want a couple or three inputs in various combinations, > > Or as I've been saying for the last messages, the PAL is useful > because althought it's restricted in what functions it can generate, the > ones it can generate are actually useful for many real-world > applications. No arguement about that. > > > which become your product terms, and you want the feedback applied to those > > inputs as well, so you may end up with as many as 5 or 6 product terms per > > sum, but seldom the entire 8 or more that are avaialble. If you do need > > more, there are devices that provide them, and you use one of those devices. > > > > In a PROM, regardless of how many imputs you want, you have to program them > > all, and there's no software that does it for you. That in itself is already > > Of course there's software to do that. In fact it's simpler than logic > minisation for a PAL. Here's the algorigthm (inputs I(N), I(N-1), .. > I(1), I(0) ) > > For I(N) = 0 to 1 do > For I(N-1)=0 to 1 do > ... > For I(1) = 0 to 1 do > For I(0) = 0 to 1 do > address = I(N)*2^N + I(N-1)*2^(N-1) + ... + I(1) * 2^1 + I(0) * 2^0 > bit = desired_boolean_function(I(N),I(N-1),...,I(1),I(0)) > program_PROM (address,bit) > ... and just exactly WHAT does this do? (BTW, it's a mite confusing keeping the I's straight, and figuring out what, exactly, your ellispsis represents, but, overall, it still looks like a single product term will do it. That's not the sort of function that you said you'd need a PROM to implement. Simpler, is a pretty nebulous concept, but I'm here to say that simpler means you use the tools that are freely available to do the "dirty-work" including translation from source, reduction, and production of the JEDEC file and/or fuse map. You can also use the same tool to do the functional simulation, just to verify that you've kept the poliarity straight in all cases. (saves on fusible-link devices) It means you don't have to write your own tools, and it means that you can, for the most part, rely on the resulting output. The machine on which you accomplish these things is just a tool, like a wrench. It's not a deity, and doesn't need special consideration. Like a hammer, when it fails to meet my needs, I repair/replace the offending component, or chuck the whole thing and replace it, just as I would with a screwdriver that no long works well. If I can't afford a new tool I need, I consider a 2nd hand one, even if I can't afford one that doesn't have a broken handle or the like. > > > less simple, since you now have to come up with a bitmap for the prom size > > you're using. It's not difficult with a small prom, but with a bigger one it > > quickly becomes a burden, so you write an application to do the bitmap > > Yes, which takes a few minutes at most... > I'm not so sure of that. Further, I'd be interested to know how long it takes under RT-11, to which you frequently refer. > > > generation. Once you've done that for every size of memory that you intend to > > use, you're done. I don't know where you'll get a PROM with 16 address lines > > and address-access times on the order of what a PAL delivers, but that's > > another issue. > > You possibly can't. But alas, as I said at the start, the PAL doesn't > necessarily solve the problem either (if you're unlucky enough to have a > function that won't fit into the PAL). > I'd just recommend a bit more focus on what you CAN do in the real world rather than focusing on what you can't in the theoretical world and using that as an excuse not to take advantage of the technology. You're a free person and are allowed to do pretty much whatever you want, but, IF you consider your mental processes to be of any value at all, aside from your own amusement, and IF you think you can come up with something that's of use, WHY would you encumber yourself with 1970's tools? It's fun to play with those old-timers, and they do, after all, still compute just as they always did, but, since you've mentioned that your resources are limited, why don't you consider that those old-timers consume kilowatts of power and leave you technologically isolated from the convenient-if-not-perfect technology available today, that consumes much less power and runs so much faster, aside from being able to utilize the no-cost/low-cost resources the lack of which seems to stand in your way? You could recover the cost of a 2nd-hand Pentium-based PC-type in just a few months in power savings. When you buy one 2nd hand, it normally has an OS installed, and most people put a copy of the installation files on the HDD, it it doesn't happen automatically when the system's installed I assume, of course, that power isn't free in the U.K. My own average power bill has gone down by some $22 per month (though the overall rates have increased) since I quit using those old full-sized 5-1/4" disk drives and leaving them spun up all the time. A 3-1/2" 18GB drive only cost me $82 including freight and a spare (ain't eBay great?!). It does't make nearly the noise, heat, and power bills of the dozen or so "old" drives. > > > > > What this suggests is that you've chosen the wrong device. You can't do > > the > > > > > > Oh, for %deity's sake, this has got totally ridiculous... > > > > > > If you are claiming that _in principle_ a device with only a programmable > > > AND matrix can genearate any combinatorial function then I'll agree with > > > you -- provided the number of product terms is large enough. But most > > > (all?) real PALs have a limited number of product terms. For many > > > real-world applications there are enough product terms. But there are > > > still functions you can't generate if you wanted to. > > > > > NO, what I'm saying is that there's a device to fit whatever your application. > > If a PROM will do it, perhaps that's the right choice, but it's going to be a > > bigger prom and it may require extra devices to finish the job. The PAL makes > > it simpler because you can design your PCB knowing that your logic can be > > The PAL only makes it simpler if the logic will fit into the PAL... > > To turn it round. If I design the PCB for PROM + latch then I know that > no matter what logic function I end up needing, it'll fit because the > PROM can generate any n-input logic function. But if I chose the PAL, > there's a chance the function I want won't fit into the PAL. > What? Are you suggesting that you'd design a PCB without knowing what logic functions you need? You've already said that it's not a given that such a ROM even exists. I'm still curious what sort of a logic function you think you might encounter that you couldn't implement, including latches, etc, in a 42VA12 or something on that order. Remember, it has both arrays programmable, and it has 64 product terms per sum term. (look in the "Signetics Programmable Logic Devices" Data Handbook, from Philips, 1990) > > And for more complex PLDs (certainly the FPGAs I used), it did matter > which pin you used sometimes. It could be that the chip could be routed > fully if you put the signals one way round on the pins but that there > were not enough routing resources to put the signals on other pins. It > could be a very bad idea to design the PCB before you designed the FPGA map. > I recognize that problem. I've seen boards full of FPGA's that still had wires on them once the FPGA's were changed simply because the redesign had to change either the timing or the pinout and timing changes weren't tolerable. That sort of thing doesn't happen as readily with current devices, but you're certainly right. > > > > OK, you have 42 inputs, and let's just consider having one output. Tell > > > me, does it take 4 terabits (=2^42 bits) to specify the programming fuse map > > > for that one output? Because if it takes less, it's clear to me there > > > must be some functions you can't implement. If you don't understand this, > > > then _please_ read some books on electronics and/or mathematics before > > > going off on some other tangent. > > > > > You can program both the AND and OR arrays, Tony, so the functions you would > > want to create are quite a bit more flexible. If you need all combinations of > > OK, but that's still not enough to generate _all_ possible functions. > I'm getting really curious what sort of function one could NEED that requires a set of more than 64 products of those 42 inputs, though you can certainly use more than that by combining sums if you do need. Generally one doesn't have to decode the entire real and virtual address bus. Generally, one can use fewer than ALL the inputs in combinations of 42 taken 64 at a time, but there's certainly more than that available to you in the little 24-pin skinnydip that's the 42VA12. Even if you consider only one output, that's available to you in that part. There are, of course, more sizeable parts, but I didn't have the sense that you needed more size. Further, if it's a state-machine, how many states do you think you might need? How many do you think you can manage to design with inside a realistic time? What sorts of resources would that require? > > Again, let me point out that if there are 2^(2^42) possible functions (a > rediculously big number!), then there's no way to uniquely specify one of > them with frewe than 4 terrabits. So any device that takes fewer than > that many bits to program it must not be able to generate all possible > functions. > > > the 42 inputs, you do, indeed need a PROM. If, however, you consider REAL > > WORLD problems and their solution I've got some difficulty conceiving of a > > logic function that would consume the entire resources of a 42VA12, in real > > terms. I know, you could want to detect an access to a particular location > > I've not looked at the device, but how about an arbitrary set of 12 bits > (to be decided at program-time) from the product of a 15*15 parallel > multiplier? (I'm assuming that if I want 12 outputs,then I have 30 pins > left for inputs -- if I have more, then just increase the input word size, > please :-)) Large adder arrays are notoriously difficult to fit into PALs > (there were even some PALs with XOR terms -- the 16X4, etc) to help with > this). A parallel divider (produces the quotient and remainder in one > clock cycle) is likely to be even worse. > How many ROMs of what size would it take to do what you're suggesting? The fixed XOR's weren't popular for long, once larger numbers of product terms became available. How about looking at the real device in a real application? If you want something really large in scale, you'd probably want to put the multiplier inside the device. Just for drill, take a look at the biggest of the XILINX devices. You'll have no trouble fitting whatever you want in there, and the performance is pretty good too. > > > > > > Otherwise, I'll propose the following lossless compression system : > > > > > > > > > > 1) Read <2^n> bits from a file. > > > > > > > > > > 2) Regard them as the 'truth table' for an arbitrary input, one > > output, > > > > > logic function (this step is OK) > > > > > > > > > > 3) Turn that function into the equivalent 'PAL fuse map' (which you > > claim is > > > > > always possible, moreover, it takes fewer (than 2^n) bits to specify > > this). > > > > > > > > > > 4) I now write out this smaller number of bits to the output file. > > > > > > > > > > If step (3) is always possible, then we have a compression system that > > > > > reduces the size of all possible input files. Which is clearly > > impossible! > > > > > > > > > > > > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > > > > > > > > > > > And that should tell you something is 'wrong'. > > > > > > > > > Not exactly, since the PROM requires you to represent all the states of > > the > > > > inputs, while the PAL allows you to use only the ones that are relevant. > > > > > > Do you seriously believe that the compression scheme I've proposed can > > > always work? Because if you do, I've got a bridge for sale! > > > > > You can implement functions that don't do what you want. I'd be surprised if > > you haven't done that. > > Eh? Would you mind explaining what the heck you mean here? > I'm saying that if you design a function that doesn't work, that doesn't mean you can't implement that function. You shouldn't expect a compression scheme that doesn't work to work in programmable logic. > > > > > > Actually, I haven't given this example a moment's thought. > > Ah, right. Probably becuase it proves there are functions you can put > into a PROM that you can't put into a PAL of smaller size (same number of > ins and outs, but fewer 'fuses'). > No... only because you're looking for things that fit PROMs with external registers, while you're not considering what sorts of functions it is that you can't implement in a PAL. All you've said is that it is conceivable that one might invent a function that doesn't work in a PAL. You've not come up with one yet. It's true, though, that if you want a function that requires more product terms than you can combine in a given device, > > Let me go through it again. Suppose, to keep things simple, we just have > a 20 input, one output PAL (say a 20V8, but only using one output. This > takes a lot less than 1 megabit to progam it, right? > > So I propose the following. > > 1) Read it one megabit of data > > 2) Regard those 2^20 bits as the outputs for a 20 input boolean function. > If you like, think of burning those 2^20 bits into a 1 megabit PROM, and > figuring out just what boolean function it now generates. > Have you got a part number for a 1 Mbit x1 PROM? > > 3) Generate the PAL fuse map that generates the same function in a 20V8. > By the above assumptions, this is less than 1 megabit in size. > I'm not sure where this is supposed to lead. Normally one starts with a required logic function and then decides what sort of hardware is required to implement that. Keep in mind that the 20L8 is a 24-pin part, so a more complex PLD on a 24-pin footprint isn't ruled out if you only use one output. > > This process is reversable (in that given a PAL fuse map we can generate > the boolean function from it (this is what a PAL does in hardware :-)), > and thus can generate the PROM bitmap to do the same thing. And thus can > recover the original 2^20 bits. > You're putting too much emphasis on the fuse map, which nobody sees, and not on the relationship between the inputs and output, though one certainly exists. > > However, it's also clear that there are many more PROM bitmaps than PAL > fuse maps. How can we then have a 1-1 mapping between 2 finite sets of > different sizes? Obviously we can't. > And what, exactly does that prove? > > It's actually true that _no_ lossless compression algorithm can compress > all possible input files (the above argument doesn't depend on PROMs and > PALs, only on having 2 things that are claimed to be equivalent, but > which take differnent numbers of bits to specify them). > > > > > > > What I am saying is that (say) a 16 input _PROM_ takes 65536 bits to > > > > > program it. A 16 input PAL (like a 16C2) takes many fewer bits. So there > > > > > have to be logic functions you can fit into the PROM that you can't fit > > > > > into the PAL. > > > > > > > > > Not all PALs are alike. The 16C2 is a decoder. It tells you when the > > desired > > > > address appears at the inputs. A 26CV12 is quite a different device. > > > > > > Actually, a 16C2 is not a decoder necessarily. It's just the simplest of > > > the original classic PALs. > > > > > I remember it being described as a programmable decoder. ... > > That may well have been it's main (or intended) use, but it's not > restricted to that. > > > > [1] Considering that the FPGAs I used about 5 years ago used 32 bit RAMs > > > to implement all the combinatorial logic, there must be tools that turn > > > logic equations into the 'bitmap' for such RAMs. And I have no reason to > > > believe that such tools can only exist for 32 bit RAMs. > > > > > Yep! Sounds like the 3000-series Xilinx devices. They had more than a > > Exactly! > > > 32-bit RAM, but that's what you saw. Believe me, their software won't support > > your 32-bit RAM. It only supports their unique architecture. > > Of course. However, there is no problem in principle for writing similar > software for any 32 bit RAM (or any size RAM/PROM for that matter). > > > > True. But why do you insist of overcomplicating things. We are > > > considering only the combinatorial part of the circuit at the moment. > > > > > Why? One of the benefits of PALs is that they allow you to build two or three > > functions into a single device. You don't always want a PROM. If you do, you > > should use one. > > No arguements there. If the PAL is the right solution, use it. But if the > PROM is the right solution, don't ignore it. > > > > > > [16C2] > > > > > Actaully, the 'C' means Complimentary, refering to the fact that the 2 > > > > > outputs are always inverses of each other. > > > > > I found an old-enough databook to have that device ... it's actually a 16C1, > > unless there was also a 16C2, which certainly isn't in this book. It appears > > that it has 512 bits in its fuse array. > > OK, sorry. Looks as though they only counted the single output from the > OR array, even though it actually appeared on 2 pins (one the inverse of > the other). Makes sense. > > > > The reason I picked the 16C2 was to avoid having any features that are > > > irrelevant to the argument. OK, you want to pick the 16L8. It makes no > > > difference. You might as well ignore the output control lines _because > > > they make no difference to the combinatorial functions you can > > > implement). And the feedback terms are almost irrelevant -- just add 6 > > > more pins to the package (IIRC only 6 of the outputs have feedback) and > > > seperatate the feedback signal from the output. You can wire them back > > > together if you want to. > > > > > OK, but Why? What's relevant is the question of what's realistically > > implementable. I know of no PROM with performance comparable with PALs, and I > > Because at the time I believed we were arguing over what combinatorial > functiosn could be fitted into a PAL compared to a PROM. So I wanted to > not bother about other features of the PAL for the moment. > > Obviously if you need these extra features _and have a combinatorial > function that will fit into the PAL_, then you probably should at least > consider the PAL :-) > > > > The result is an imaginary device that would be more versatile than > > > the real 16L8. So if we can show this has restrictions (which we clearly > > > can), then the real 16L8 must have at least as many restrictions. > > > > > Yes, but the reason such a device doesn't exist is because there's too little > > market for it. The PAL is extremely simple to use for the purpose for which > > Do you really never consider non-existant but possible devices for the > purposes of discussion/arguement? > That's the reason programmable logic exists. Devices are needed, but don't exist, so we look at how to make 'em. If there's a very limited market, like, I'm the only one who wants such a thing, then a programmable devices is more likely find its way into my application than a mass-produced one. > > Nobody is suggesting the device should be made. Only that for the > purposes of this argument it's easier to consider such a device. > I think that's why this argument has persisted for so long. With programmable devices, I can build what I want. With TTL SSI/MSI/LSI you can build what you want. We could switch roles, but the fact remains, each approach has advantages. I just believe that the advantages of the SSI/MSI/LSI approach are diminshing, while the programmable logic approach continues to expand. As far as the theoretical capabilities of PROMs versus PAL-architecture devices, I've never suggested you were wrong in your assertion that it was POSSIBLE to conjure up a function that could be implemented in a PROM that couldn't be implemented in a particular PLD. I've emphasised, I hope, that there's a link missing between your argument and the practical realities of (a) needing such a function and defining it, and (b) implementing such a function in REAL hardware, whether programmable logic or PROM, for several reasons, ranging from the size of the task to the size of the device. With one output, you could generate only one state of a state machine, so I imagine it would take several of the hypothetical devices to which you refer to do anything useful. I find it difficult to imagine working with a finite state machine with as many inputs as you suggest. That suggests a pretty wide state register, and separate outputs, perhaps, and quite a few additional inputs. With more than 8 product terms you'd have to share product terms between adjacent macrocells until you have enoug of them. When you're done, you could end up with all but 8 of the sum terms involved in some way, since 8 are used for the output enable at each input. If you were ever to want to investigate, thoroughly, at least as thoroughly as you could by building such a thing, a system that required such a complicated logic function, with as many as 56 ORs of products with 1..20 ANDed inputs, you would likely start with a simulator and not with hardware. You'd then write a top-level functinoal simulation program and then test it with a sample program. After that, you'd descend, step-by-step in to the bowels of each module, simulating it as you think you'd implement it, substituting thousands, or tens of thousands of ANDs and ORs, etc, for what was a bunch of registers or adders, or whatever, refining your work as you progress to ever lower levels until you've arrived at a simulation, at the gate-level, of what you eventually plan to build. At every step of the way, you can test the simulation. If you've written your simulator well, when you're done, you can construct the device at the gate-level or at the SSI/MSI/LSI level. Your result should quite well match the simulation. In my estimation, all this is much simpler, because the tools already exist, and easier because there's help available, if it's done with the modern hardware and accompanying tools. With the free tools from Xilinx, for example, you have Verilog an VHDL, schematic entry, graphical FSM entry, and lower-level PAL-style (ABEL) tools, all of which can be used together. You can design in the large or at the SPLD level. You can design a system and verify its logic without ever soldering a wire, and get representative simulations of your work via the simulator that they provide. Further, you can specify your design at behavioral, structural, and register-transfer level and migrate from one to the other as needed in order to specify more precisely what you want. You can even specify the design using your own TTL library with timing and all as specified for the type of logic you intend to use rather than using XILINX programmable logic, though I don't know that for certain. You might have to do this last step in someone else's freeware HDL. Doesn't this seem less spainful than (a) finding a set of bare wire-wrap boards, (b) installing sockets, (c) working out a large schematic design, (d) acquiring the long list of parts, only some of which you'll already have,(e) integrating the various modules you fabricate and test separately, (f) finding the problems and going on only when there don't appear to be any more (else go to (C)...) (g) and then, finally, going to the step at which you'd have arrived without ever fiddling with any hardware with the former approach? You don't really EVER have to implement anything in programmable logic unless you want to, but you can use all the tools to support a development in SSI/MSI/LSI. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 13:47:31 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) References: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3CBBB6D6.11935.44D20B@localhost> Message-ID: <001b01c1e577$2a3d1680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The email handler I used back when I had a shell account always did that, IIRC it was PINE, but ELM did that too. The mail handler before outlook express but under internet explorer 3.x cautioned about largely quoted posts as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:29 AM Subject: Re: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) > I remember my old Blue Wave offline reader would admonish you if the > reply was more than 50% quote. I vary from top to bottom to interleaved > according to the message. The bottom line is whatever's the best to > communicate the message. Altho unlike this, I do prefer top quoting. > > Lawrence > > > At 12:48 AM 4/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > >> From: John Foust > > > > > >> Unfortunately, I don't think Winston said anything > > >> about the inability to format e-mail responses > > >> in conventional style, so we're stuck. "see below, plz." > > >> now induces an immediate "CTRL/D" from my left hand. > > > > > >Okay, so what is the *preferred* method of replying to classiccmp posts? > > >Reply at top? Replay at bottom? Or, embedded comments interspersed > > >throughout the replied-to post? I prefer the latter, more conversational > > >style . . . > > > > You did fine. :-) When I see the entire message quoted > > (with headers) and no white space between the quoted > > text and the new comments, my eyes glaze over. > > > > If there's a relevant passage, quote it, comment on it > > and be done with it. If you think for a moment there's a > > need to quote the entire previous message, then erase it all > > and begin pontificating. Don't do both. > > > > - John > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 16 13:48:28 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CBC71FC.4020700@dragonsweb.org> Christopher Smith wrote: >>How about we just drop this whole subject? > > > Hmm -- Ok. > > Chris > Excellent, because you were coming perilously close to putting words in my mouth. < insert smiley to signify lack of rancor, not an attempt at humor > jbdigriz From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 16 14:02:50 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: NEC V20 and Rainbow (was: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M) Message-ID: <003c01c1e579$4e523b20$3a7b7b7b@rdf_domain_01.domain.com> From: Lawrence Walker To: Mark Tapley ; classiccmp@classiccmp.org I would be interested in seeing the mod documentation when you find it. I keep hoping I'll find a cheap stash of V-20s to use on about 3 or 4 of my boxes, altho they come up fairly reasonable on EPay from time to time. Hows the Stylewriter project going ? Lawrence What do you call cheap. They are commonly available from JDR and other for around $10 for the V20-10, and $9 for the -8{8mhz} version. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 16 14:06:05 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: I dunno, I think shipping UPS to a business address versus a residential address may have some effect, not sure.. I hate Fedex ground, they like to deliver my company's packages to Lewan & Assosciates, an office product-type company down the street from us. Gah! Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue Apr 16 14:14:07 2002 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020415183625.03487748@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <01d301c1e57a$e53ff7b0$05247452@NEWHARE> We use Virtual PC 4.2 or 4.3 from Connectix on Windows 2000 to run OS/2 Warp 4 for development and testing purposes. VMware does not support OS/2, and we've had better overall experience with VPC than VMware. The connectix support forums are good source of info: www.Connectix.com/support, go to the forums, Virtual PC for Windows. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Sell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 5:37 PM Subject: RE: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze BOCHS won't even start on my Win2K laptop. Blows immediately with illegal opcodes. Oh well.... moving on...... - Matt At 04:36 PM 4/15/2002 -0500, you wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > > I was hoping to find a way to run trusty OS/2 on my laptop > when I wasn't > > busy with work...... > They stopped trying to support it in the 2.x days. I got Warp 3 to > partially boot, but that's all IIRC. I'd say go find > yourself a copy of > partition magic (or fips) and dual-boot if you want to play > with OS/2. :) Will BOCHS run on that version of windows? You may have a chance with that too -- I've heard that it would boot OS/2, but that's second hand information. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/subscribe_t&c.html. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/bd5161ec/attachment.html From BFeely at aol.com Tue Apr 16 14:21:04 2002 From: BFeely at aol.com (BFeely@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: ALU IC information? Message-ID: <1E6075FE.1103DB10.00040E53@aol.com> I am trying desperately to find a datasheet for the obsolete semiconductor 74F582. All I know is that it is a 4-bit ALU. I would appreciate it if someone could possibly e-mail me a copy. It would even be good if it was another 7400 logic type, as all the families have the same functions. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 16 14:29:25 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Huge Nortel Web Auction this week. References: <3CBC277B.7597.70DCDE@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBC7B95.3060107@dragonsweb.org> Lawrence Walker wrote: > Just ran across this in the Montreal Gazette. > > Nortel Networks Corp. has put up for auction untold millions of dollars worth of > computers, test equipment, office phone systems, photocopiers and tool kits it > once used in St. Laurent and Florida to build Internet equipment for which > demand has evaporated. > The auction will be Webcast - on http://www.dovebid.com - Thursday and > Friday, starting at 9 a.m. > A Montreal-area preview day tomorrow will allow potential buyers to physically > examine the local assets, not just massive quantities of high-end electronic gear > but also fork-lift trucks, heaters, air-compressors and more than 230 Dell laptop > computers, PCs and servers. Nortel is conducting a similar preview day at > another plant in Boca Raton, Fla. > The St. Laurent plant builds Internet transmission equipment and had 6,000 > people on its payroll in mid-2000, a figure Quigley estimated has been cut in half. > Its gates, on the south side of the Trans-Canada Highway, will be open between > 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. "Please watch for auction signs," DoveBid's Web site instructs > out-of-town buyers coming to see for themselves. > > Lawrence > lgwalker@mts.net > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com > > Holy $@*%! I don't know if I can wade through all this stuff in just 2 days. Thanks for the heads-up. jbdigriz From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 14:58:08 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <005a01c1e581$07d29e30$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the > >> monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal > >> "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the > >> monitor? It is just bright enough not to strain your eyes at > >> the highest brightness setting right now... (It's B&W) > > > >I have always assumed that the electrons just kick the sh*t > >out of the phosphor, and the the phosphor just dies... but I > >hope that's wrong, and that something can indeed be adjusted > >or replaced (other than the daggone tube itself). > > The above basically sums it up. Those early B/W NeXT mono > monitors have very short lifespans. Couple that with not being able > to turn off the monitor seperately from the computer and you > can then see why most of them are pretty dim. This comes up on > Usenet quite a bit still. Once they're dim, they're dim. Don't got no Next stuff, but I figured whatever was true of them would be true of my Apollo (&HP) monitors... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 16 14:58:32 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: > If FedEx dropped their price a little I think more people > would use them vice UPS. Thankfully the SGI Indigo2 and 19" monitor> I was waiting on arrived today by UPS and appears to have come > through the ordeal at least physically intact. Don't count on FedEx either. My Indigo2 and monitor each came in large and small pieces. :/ FedEx Ground in St Louis. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 16 14:57:16 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa References: <003101c1e56f$f4a18080$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CBC821C.56C1A80E@compsys.to> >"Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Seriously, I don't want to have to maintain my own internet system > > since I am much more interested in RT-11. Also, since Ersatz-11 > > runs under DOS/W95/W98, the W98 (Yeck) environment has become > > a default last resort. > Are/were you an Ersatz-11 beta tester, or are you rich? I thought > it cost US$3K. Jerome Fine replies: There is a hobby version of Ersatz-11 which can be downloaded for free: http://www.dbit.com/pub/ You will want to download at least /e11/ and /putr/ followed by those portions that you want to initially focus on. Even the hobby version of Ersatz-11 is able to run all versions of RT-11, but a license is required to legally do so. On the other hand, SIMH is available and there is a hobby license from Mentec which allows the 1985 V5.03 of RT-11 to be legally run by a hobby user. The hobby license from Mentec which allows the 1985 V5.03 of RT-11 to run just under the SIMH emulator might be compared with the hobby program from Compaq which allows hobby use of current versions of VMS. It is my understanding that Mentec MIGHT have been considering allowing a hobby license for the 1992 V5.06 of RT-11 with all hardware and emulators, but that seems to have been dropped. From all indications (I sent a request to Mentec recently in respect of support and have not even received a reply, let alone a YES answer), Mentec has also dropped support for V5.07 of RT-11 since there are many bugs in both the operating system and the utilities which require fixing. Thus far, only one bug has been made available, as far as I can tell from the web site at Mentec: http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/rt-11.htm As far as I am concerned, dropping support for V5.07 of RT-11 (even Mentec states there is NO support for any prior versions) is not only expected but entirely justified when the revenue stream from RT-11 is as low as I assume it is at the moment - which means that RT-11 probably is already running at a loss - and we know what almost all companies do when their software runs at a loss. The commercial version does cost $ US 2999 for DOS/W95/W98/NT. However, when running the RT-11 operating system, there are sufficient resources (about 300 KBytes of emulated PDP-11 memory) and hard disk devices (up to 32 MBytes) to be sufficient for almost all applications. So while I admit that having the commercial version is extremely convenient, the extra features (all 4 MBytes of memory and unlimited hard disk devices) only make things easier to do and test. In particular, I am allowed to use a raw SCSI hard disk drive by: MOUNT DU0: SCSI5: where "5" is the SCSI ID of the SCSI hard drive. This allows me to use the same SCSI hard disk drive with both Ersatz-11 and on a real PDP-11 system. I am in the process of making up a Current Bug List for RT-11. It would be appreciated if any known bugs for either V5.03 or V5.07 could be detailed. If I am able to fix the bug, I will place a patch for HOBBY users of V5.03 of RT-11 on the classiccmp web site at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/ I will also produce patches for V5.06 and V5.07 of RT-11, but until these distributions are made available to hobby users, there will be only limited licensed distribution available of these bug fixes for hobby users. Note that in general, I see no demand for bug fixes for RT-11 in any case. When I offered to sell commercial users a set of Y2K patches for RT-11 at a prices which was much less than what Mentec charges, no one wanted to buy them after Mentec released V5.07 in November of 1998. Finally, any reader who actually reads this far will also note the lack of any comment on what I have stated above. This is the situation and it is why I realize that RT-11 is almost forgotten except for the few individuals who still like to run RT-11 on their real PDP-11 hardware just for fun - but in almost every case are not interested in any software bugs in RT-11 itself. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 15:01:20 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <006201c1e581$7a68b970$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I think I mentioned it before relative to UPS but I once shipped a 19" monitor > from here (California) to Virginia IICRC. The monitor made it fine to the guys > driveway (He was watching as the UPS driver pulled up) > > It was being kicked off the back of the UPS truck onto the asphalt driveway > that destroyed the monitor. Pretty hard to pack anything (thats big or heavy) > to withstand that... Yup, I'd be in prison now for beating the UPS driver within an inch of his life.... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Apr 16 15:04:34 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? References: <003101c1e24f$c9000500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> Message-ID: <015901c1e581$eecc68c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> A few basic things ................... Fact1: Clean (demineralized) water itself will usually not damage your equipment. However water is not always clean. Even rain contains minute amounts of acids like SO2, CO2 NO3 etc. This and other soluble dirt on the equipment will make the water somewhat corosive. Especiallay iron-containing components will tend to rust relatively fast. The sooner you'll get the equipment dry the better. But you'll have a few days to achieve this. So no extreme hurry is nessecary! Fact2: A lot of (soap-based) rinsing materials will make the water a lot more corosive. Soaps, will result in an off-neutral PH and will add a lot of mineral ions like sodium, calcium, nitrious, phosphor & sulfur-oxides, and organic acids, not to mention peroxides and worse, ad naseum. This will usualy result in even more rust and precipitated metal-salts forming, especially when it comes into contact with metals like copper, tin or silver. When the equipment contains batteries the ion-soup will lead to electrolysis in the circuit around them and this corosive effect will localy be enhanced. So get batteries out as quickly as you can ! Even if you need to use soap or other rinsing stuff, make sure that you'll rinse the equipment vigorously with clean water to remove as much soap as you can before dry-ing! (I put my Palm-V in the washing-machine once so the soap was not a matter of choice!) Fact 3: Alcohol vapourises quickly ! Over in the Netherlands we've got Spiritus which is a rather non-agressive 75% alcohol (ethanol+methanol) solution with some analine added to make it undrinkable. (It's got a blueish color). It's also reasonably inert cleaner. ISO-propyl-alcohol may have similar properties but I've got no experience with ISO-alcohol I often use spiritus to displace the water after a cleaning operation. It may leave a little analine residue but that's never been a problem for me. The spirtus will dry a lot faster than water however! This of course works fine for PCB's and non movable parts. I would never treat a harddisk this way! Fact 4: Use gravity! When you take the PCB's out and place the boards vertically in a warm dry environment, most of the water will run off. Every now and then you can turn the boards so that it can run-off water from another angle. This is a very important aspect of the dry-ing procedure for a lot of the water will have to be dislodged from under various components on the board like chips, capacitors etc. If possible disconnect connectors and other components that may have accumulated metal-salts and other debris. Clean them carefully. If you use spiritus rather than water, make sure there is plenty of ventilation and keep any open fire far away when drying the board/components (A sunny out-door place would be perfect!) NO-SMOKING! Fact 5: PRIMAN NON NOCARE!. First do no harm! Heat may dry stuff sooner but it may do it's own damage. Remember if the water is clean you've got plenty of time (days rather than hours) and you can first make the dirty water clean (deminiralized water or alcohol/spiritus) A Magnetron may generate very high voltages across even a few centimeters of a conductor. (Try some xmas-tree lights fixed to a cardboard in a magnetron!) So I would NEVER use an oven or magnetron to dry anything ! However a medium-power hairdryer may prove helpfull in the latter stages of the dry-ing procedure, when only a few remaining specs of moist are lodged somewhere on the board. Keep the dryer a bit distant from your work. The warm dry air will do the wonders not the heat! The next one should be obvious but I'll mention it anyway: ---- Don't use the hairdryer in a alcohol laden atmosphere !!!!!!! Fact 6: Allthough. I didn't get to fixing my Palm-V for the first 3 days, by following the aforementioned principles, I did manage to get it back to working order including the Lithium-ION battery. (That was 9 month ago!) Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Enrico Badella" To: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? > > Hello! > > I ve this nice question for all of you... what are the best ways to > cure boxes that were out exposed to the weather for an unknown amount > of time. > > Last week I managed to get my hands on 2 vaxstations 4000/60, a Cisco > MGS, a HP Apollo 700 workstation, Sun Sparcstation 20 (WOW), a VAX 4000-300 > and a Panasonic 7330. All have varying degree of dampness 8-((. At the > moment I have them in house dry and warm... should I stuff them in the oven > at low temperature and force a drying or best let them settle for some time. > > Please give me your advice. > > TIA > > e. > > ======================================================================== > Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it > Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it > InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 > Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 > 10143 Torino, Italy > > Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, > manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals > ========================================================================== From ekklein at pacbell.net Tue Apr 16 15:39:22 2002 From: ekklein at pacbell.net (Erik and Karen Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <000701c1e568$5c82a5b0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <003a01c1e586$ca4d0c70$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I just got a five package set via UPS this morning in "typical" condition. The outer boxes were in fairly sad shape with a couple "bleeding" peanuts and all of them caved in at least a bit. Fortunately everything was double-boxed and the inner boxes plus the bubble wrap saved the contents (Altair 8800, Altair 8800a and 2 MITS floppy drives plus software, manuals etc.) from disaster. I've taken a bunch of pictures to "document" the arrival and condition, just for grins. This was a corporate delivery too, so the theory that an established relationship will help seems false. Unfortunately I don't have much faith in the USPS either. I just got word yesterday about a package that I was expecting. It seems the sender got notified that the box was "found empty at their facility." Shorthand for "we completely FUBARed your items and threw out the evidence." He was asked to provide a description of the contents so they could match the piles of garbage they create with the address he provided. . . a displacement activity at best. Such is life, I guess. Off to clean and repair some old stuff. . . Erik S. Klein User of Outlook, destroyer of industry. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas H. Quebbeman Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 10:02 AM To: ClassicCmp List Subject: RE: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's > > > From: Dave McGuire > > > > On April 16, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday but it was > > > destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high place as this thing > > > weighs in at almost 80 pounds.. > > > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've > > shipped about four things via UPS in the past year, and EVERY ONE OF > > THEM arrived damaged to some extent. WTF?? > > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with > the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen > anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? He didn't mention whether it was residential or commercial delivery; with commercial/business dleivery, you usually end up establishing a relationship with the delivery person; as a result, I think those guys are more carefully because they're going to have to look you in the eye. OTOH, residential delivery drivers just dump the package and run... so in that case, I might suspect a delivery person. But I've seen videotapes of UPS employees offloading planes, and with one guy "going long" you can tell how respectful they are with stuff. And they were being quite jolly about it, too... -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dittman at dittman.net Tue Apr 16 15:54:29 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa In-Reply-To: <3CBC821C.56C1A80E@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Apr 16, 2002 03:57:16 PM Message-ID: <200204162054.g3GKsTR11814@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Even the hobby version of Ersatz-11 is able to run all versions of > RT-11, but a license is required to legally do so. On the other hand, > SIMH is available and there is a hobby license from Mentec which > allows the 1985 V5.03 of RT-11 to be legally run by a hobby user. > ... > The commercial version does cost $ US 2999 for DOS/W95/W98/NT. > However, when running the RT-11 operating system, there are sufficient > resources (about 300 KBytes of emulated PDP-11 memory) and hard > disk devices (up to 32 MBytes) to be sufficient for almost all applications. > So while I admit that having the commercial version is extremely convenient, > the extra features (all 4 MBytes of memory and unlimited hard disk devices) > only make things easier to do and test. simh is the only one I can use as I don't have any DOS/W95/W98 systems, and the hobby version doesn't run on W2K/WXP. With simh I can use a Linux version (preferred) or a W2K/WXP version. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Apr 16 16:07:33 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: ForSale: WangTek tape drive... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146784F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Wangtek tape drive - Model No. 5150EQ - Assy No. 30551-20B Rev.G Wangtek ISA controller card & ribbon cable - Assy. No. 30475 Rev. C1 10 tapes (5 still in plastic!) - Global G6150 (DC6150 compatible) - I'll answer any queries about the chips on the adapter... - I haven't had a chance to hook it up and try it yet. - Best bid received in 48 hours (5:00pm Thursday, Eastern Time) takes it all. - Considering the weight of the tapes, shipping (from New Haven, CT) will likely cost around $10. - I can easily ship via UPS Ground (my personal preference), or I can do USPS... - I prefer PayPal, but I'll accept Money Order, or cash if you pick it up in person. *** More goodies to come as I clean out & organize the computer room in my house! (Won't my wife be so proud of me! :) - Would it be better to put up a little web page listing the other items I'll be selling, instead of a message like this? Or is this (the 'ForSale:' subject line) okay? -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 16 16:08:53 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa Message-ID: <003b01c1e58a$e9deb9e0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Jerome writes: > There is a hobby version of Ersatz-11 which can be downloaded > for free: http://www.dbit.com/pub/ > You will want to download at least /e11/ and /putr/ followed by > those portions that you want to initially focus on. ... > The commercial version does cost $ US 2999 for DOS/W95/W98/NT. Well, considering what John's done for the emulator movement I can't call that predatory pricing. If the market is there, then so be it... BTW, I realize we have many consultants on this list who can justify that cost as a business expense. I also realize people of various means are on this list. I do confess to wishing I had more "leverage"; I hope that doesn't get taken as class jealousy. > In particular, I am allowed to use a raw SCSI hard disk drive by: > MOUNT DU0: SCSI5: > where "5" is the SCSI ID of the SCSI hard drive. This allows me to > use the same SCSI hard disk drive with both Ersatz-11 and on > a real PDP-11 system. Ken Harrenstein's KLH-10 has this ability, although I haven't used it yet. It sure would be nice if someone would do a commercial HP2000/2100 emulator and be able to cripple it slightly for those hobbyists who'd like to run one. Yes, Bob, I read your message, but I had something else in mind... ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 16 16:33:21 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa References: <003b01c1e58a$e9deb9e0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <016101c1e58e$553e7d80$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Doug wrote... > It sure would be nice if someone would do a commercial > HP2000/2100 emulator and be able to cripple it slightly > for those hobbyists who'd like to run one. *wink* Jay West From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 16 16:31:33 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CBB8FD8.7E700DF7@jetnet.ab.ca> <005001c1e565$e4332820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CBC9835.755C2A5C@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > That's your privilege, Ben, but there's nothing to prevent you from preserving > the software/hardware that effectively runs your software. If the software > exists now, it will still exist in 5 years if you don't destroy it. If you > want to run the software later, you do have to retain a machine that runs it, > though. If it doesn't "require 1253 meg of crap to run" today, it won't > require it later either. I was refering to CPLD's software. > What's more, I'd guess that since few vendors are still making much of the TTL > range that was available 20 years ago, it won't be better in 5 years. If you > want to be able to design big circuits in the future, I'd recommend stocking > up on NAND gates, billions of 'em, and lots of wire-wrap wire and sockets. > Perfboard may not be readily available then either. Hmm maybie I better just order thousands of diodes and transistors today and start making flip/chips instead. :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 16 16:52:35 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: CPLD computing References: <00c101c1e576$88ac9d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CBC9D23.1EB6344C@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > OK, but that's still not enough to generate _all_ possible functions. > > > I'm getting really curious what sort of function one could NEED that requires > a set of more than 64 products of those 42 inputs, though you can certainly > use more than that by combining sums if you do need. Carry logic found in adders can use up a lot of terms if one is not careful. > I think that's why this argument has persisted for so long. With programmable > devices, I can build what I want. With TTL SSI/MSI/LSI you can build what you > want. We could switch roles, but the fact remains, each approach has > advantages. I just believe that the advantages of the SSI/MSI/LSI approach > are diminshing, while the programmable logic approach continues to expand. But the programmable logic setup is still a mess. I have yet find a CLEAN hardware description language that is portable, simple and free. > If you were ever to want to investigate, thoroughly, at least as thoroughly as > you could by building such a thing, a system that required such a complicated > logic function, with as many as 56 ORs of products with 1..20 ANDed inputs, > you would likely start with a simulator and not with hardware. I tend to work bottom up. I start with REAL hardware and build up. > You'd then > write a top-level functinoal simulation program and then test it with a sample > program. (snip) Testing is good. How ever it still needs to fit in the hardware. > Doesn't this seem less spainful than (a) finding a set of bare wire-wrap > boards, (b) installing sockets, (c) working out a large schematic design, (d) > acquiring the long list of parts, only some of which you'll already have,(e) > integrating the various modules you fabricate and test separately, (f) finding > the problems and going on only when there don't appear to be any more (else go > to (C)...) (g) and then, finally, going to the step at which you'd have > arrived without ever fiddling with any hardware with the former approach? You > don't really EVER have to implement anything in programmable logic unless you > want to, but you can use all the tools to support a development in > SSI/MSI/LSI. But debuging TTL is visible. You put a logic probe on the output and test data in. I favor switches and lights.It is not that I don't like modern software , I as design should be able to have the final say in exactly how things are connected even if this means shooting myself in the foot now and then. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dan at ekoan.com Tue Apr 16 16:56:05 2002 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416175515.03b78510@enigma> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html From dan at ekoan.com Tue Apr 16 17:22:08 2002 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Looking for info on an HP-IB cable Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416182110.02cec630@enigma> Hi, I recently picked up an HP-IB cable, made by HP, with a part number of 12009-60015. One end is an HP-IB connector and the other end is a 15-pin card edge. Any ideas what device this cable connects to on the card edge end? Google isn't very informative with this one. Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From dittman at dittman.net Tue Apr 16 17:28:38 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416175515.03b78510@enigma> from "Dan Veeneman" at Apr 16, 2002 05:56:05 PM Message-ID: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! > > http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system was actually made by Apple and not some third-party. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 16 17:34:23 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Don't count on FedEx either. My Indigo2 and monitor each came in large and >small pieces. :/ FedEx Ground in St Louis. Goes to show that there's good and bad experiences with all shippers. Sorry to hear about your Indigo2 being busted up though. Sweet machines...I'm going to like having one around! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 17:57:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: <3CBB8FD8.7E700DF7@jetnet.ab.ca> <005001c1e565$e4332820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBC9835.755C2A5C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001601c1e59a$14148d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure what you're getting at, Ben. See below, please. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 3:31 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > That's your privilege, Ben, but there's nothing to prevent you from preserving > > the software/hardware that effectively runs your software. If the software > > exists now, it will still exist in 5 years if you don't destroy it. If you > > want to run the software later, you do have to retain a machine that runs it, > > though. If it doesn't "require 1253 meg of crap to run" today, it won't > > require it later either. > > I was refering to CPLD's software. > Well, I think my remark still stands. If it doesn't "require 1253 meg of crap to run" today, it won't require it later either. All you need to do is preserve the software version that works, together with the environment. I do that all the time by putting it on its own hard disk. I boot from the drive that runs the software. That way nothing changes. Backups protect that copy. > > > What's more, I'd guess that since few vendors are still making much of the TTL > > range that was available 20 years ago, it won't be better in 5 years. If you > > want to be able to design big circuits in the future, I'd recommend stocking > > up on NAND gates, billions of 'em, and lots of wire-wrap wire and sockets. > > Perfboard may not be readily available then either. > > Hmm maybie I better just order thousands of diodes and transistors today > and start making flip/chips instead. :) > Maybe ... > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Apr 16 18:12:22 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E25@BUSH02> .. (and, as lab supplies, they don't get confused by being fed backwards, so I don't need the diodes)... Lab supplies have the diodes built in on both the + and - legs. running only one in "voltage source" mode, the other(s) in "current source" mode effectively. This is how any group of paralell power supplies works. So, I think if you use PSUs that have a current limiting circuit that is not only for short-circuit protection, but engages smoothly as current approaches the continuous rating of the PSU, You don't need this, in fact it can cause problems with groups of supplies hunting between Ilimit and Vlimit as load is transfered between them. you should be able to connect them in parallel with said diodes. Of course, these PSUs will not be the cheapest devices... As long as you match all the supplies to closer than the vf drop of the diodes nearly any supplies can be connected this way. However, this setup may get difficult if loading varies widely. Usually it isn't a problem as long as there is no minimum load requirement for the individual supplies. Another problem might be shutting down the entire system if one or more of the supplies fail: Use enough supplies so that one faliure is tollerable. you can then hot swap the dud supply. you wouldn't want the remaining ones to supply as much current as they can, keeping the voltage only half-way up and running your circuitry in brown-out mode. If the outputs are overcurrent protected then a faliure of too many supplies should shut down the whole thing. Trouble is it often doesn't work that way. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From menadeau at attbi.com Tue Apr 16 18:11:45 2002 From: menadeau at attbi.com (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Secret Mac References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416175515.03b78510@enigma> Message-ID: <021001c1e59c$14a374c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> I saw that, and I have my doubts about its "uniqueness." Tempest versions of many systems have been built over the years and stay off the public's radar. Sometimes, a third party will contract with a manufacturer to build and sell Tempest versions of their computers that look more or less like the originals. (GRiD did this for years.) And if this really was such a top secret system, why did it end up at a salvage dealer? Can anyone on this list shed more light on this Mac? --Mike Michael Nadeau Editor/Publisher Classic Tech, the Vintage Computing Resource www.classictechpub.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Veeneman" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Secret Mac > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! > > http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html > > From cbajpai at attbi.com Tue Apr 16 18:44:11 2002 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416175515.03b78510@enigma> Message-ID: <000d01c1e5a0$9c423fc0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> I remember seeing ads for a Mac II converted to Tempest standards by a 3rd party company...expensive! -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Veeneman Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:56 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Secret Mac Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 16 19:37:22 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784428@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > I did boot the NeXTStation (which now has a monitor cable and mouse, thanks > to Mike), and get the XTerm talking to one of my other systems. (... Now if > I can just figure out how to service XDMCP requests with GDM) /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf . . . [xdmcp] Enable=1 . . You probably want to set some access controls in /etc/hosts.allow & /etc/hosts.deny.... Doc From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 16 15:42:18 2002 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020417004002.PQDR4150.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, > Phosphors do lose efficiency but I dont think that is the main > problem. I think mainly the cathode loses emission. This can temporarily be > improved by CRT rejuvinators or raising the heater voltage (I'm old enough to > remember the old cylindrical autotranformer picture tube brightenters that you > stacked on the old B-W TV CRTS: they basically raised the heater voltage a > little bit, squeezing a little more life out of the CRT) I know phosphors becomes fried slowly from long use but I'm referring to cathode emissions: I wondered whom is right? cathode oxide or heater coating? I think this is heater coating. I see this frequently on zeniths and zenith tubes clones for TVs since it used same socket and pinout. I used the rejuvenator so many times with those tubes to brighten them up and blow shorts out. Glowing bright orange and Crackling (lightening in a bottle)!! Sometimes you have to really hammer the guns w/ plastic tool to dislodge hard enough that tube sings to get shorts blown off. Ting! TING, TINGGG!! Shorts does kill transistors if they're not robust enough which is much about that because I fix TVs and monitors. And when a tech finds a dud transistor and swaps it, that tv comes back with same part blown because tube arc'ed again. Can be a day, days or weeks. Always small transistors (typically TO-92), rarely extends to expensive jungle IC. Now you know why I always blow shorts out on those tubes. This was from infos according to other techs on sci.electronics.repair. Cheers, Wizard > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > > > > Peter Wallace > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 16 19:39:20 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's References: <004a01c1e552$78baedc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <029d01c1e5a8$514c35e0$33000240@default> I'm still waiting on someone to tell what this really is, I could not find any hits using Google. The model number is below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 9:24 AM Subject: RE: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's > > UPS delivered my Burroughs tape unit model BU4180 yesterday > > but it was destroyed. They must have dropped it from a high > > place as this thing weighs in at almost 80 pounds. Things > > inside are pretty bad but I would like to try and get it > > looking nice again, since the boards inside are damaged I > > do not think I can get it to work again. Does anyone on the > > list have repair manual for this model? I would like to see > > how he belts go around the pulleys inside the case. Thanks > > You are admirably mellow. In lieu of tasting the blood of > the a**hole who did this, I'd want everyone who handled > that package fired from UPS, Hell, everyone who *might* > have handled it, except for the one I'd have the rapport > with, the delivery guy. > > Don't tell me this was a 7-track drive, or I'll weep > profusely... > > -dq > > > -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] > Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply > "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 19:51:30 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: Re: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... (jpero@sympatico.ca) References: <001f01c1e56e$036e0630$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <20020417004002.PQDR4150.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <15548.50962.901078.229628@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 16, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > I know phosphors becomes fried slowly from long use but I'm referring > to cathode emissions: > > I wondered whom is right? > > cathode oxide or > heater coating? > > I think this is heater coating. Wouldn't this be an issue of indirectly heated vs. directly heated, i.e. having a cathode with an electrically isolated filament inside vs. just a filament acting as the source of electrons? Some filament-only tubes do have a coating, much the same as the cathode coating I believe. Though I've never seen a CRT with no cathode. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 16 19:54:25 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784426@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > they really hate for people to put any software on their system > (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), Umm, I had the misfortune to run a Windows9x network for a couple of years. 30+ machines and 50+ belligerently clueless archeologist users. If I could have stopped those idiots from installing *every* browser plugin that came along and $3 cut-out software, I'd have had half the repairs to do. That _is_ a Windows-admin mindset, borne of much painful experience. No such beefs about *nix users. If they can install & run whatever with user perms, it probably can't break anything. Doc From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Tue Apr 16 20:27:31 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from TimShoppa References: <003b01c1e58a$e9deb9e0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CBCCF83.948034CF@compsys.to> >"Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > Jerome writes: > > There is a hobby version of Ersatz-11 which can be downloaded > > for free: http://www.dbit.com/pub/ > > You will want to download at least /e11/ and /putr/ followed by > > those portions that you want to initially focus on. > > The commercial version does cost $ US 2999 for DOS/W95/W98/NT. > Well, considering what John's done for the emulator movement > I can't call that predatory pricing. If the market is there, > then so be it... BTW, I realize we have many consultants on > this list who can justify that cost as a business expense. Jerome Fine replies: I totally agree - for any commercial application, the cost of a real PDP-11, including maintenance or proper hardware backup, is almost always more than $ US 2999. On top of that, the performance of even a current low end Pentium III is about 10 times a PDP-11/93. So for most commercial applications, Ersatz-11 is far superior. > I also realize people of various means are on this list. I > do confess to wishing I had more "leverage"; I hope that > doesn't get taken as class jealousy. NOPE! There are many things I would appreciate having. I know the difference between what I need and what I want and what I would enjoy. And just because I can afford something does not mean I need it - in fact more often than not, if I can afford something and it would be "nice" to have it, being able to say "YES!" is most often 99% of the reason why I don't need to bother. > > In particular, I am allowed to use a raw SCSI hard disk drive by: > > MOUNT DU0: SCSI5: > > where "5" is the SCSI ID of the SCSI hard drive. This allows me to > > use the same SCSI hard disk drive with both Ersatz-11 and on > > a real PDP-11 system. > Ken Harrenstein's KLH-10 has this ability, although I haven't > used it yet. I might need some additional tools in W98 to manage without this aspect of the MOUNT command in Ersatz-11, but it sure makes things much easier. The other feature that John Wilson added is the ability under Ersatz-11 to associate a separate controller with each command as: MOUNT DUA0: SCSI4: SET DUA CSR=172150 SET DUA VECTOR=154 MOUNT DUB0: SCSI5: SET DUB CSR=160334 SET DUB VECTOR=134 even though the drives at SCSI ID=4 and SCSI ID=5 are on the same 50 pin SCSI cable connected to the same host adapter on the PC - so the above is not possible (yet) on a real PDP-11 under RT-11 with just one SCSI host adapter. By the way, under RT-11, you can COPY DUX.SYS EUX.SYS but don't try to boot from EUX.SYS until 7 words with a RAD50 value of DU are changed to EU. Under RT-11, this means that if I have TWO SCSI hard drives of 2 GBytes each, I can set up TWO MSCP device drivers DUX.SYS and EUX.SYS, each one having 64 active RT-11 partitions. Thus I can reference up to 2 GBytes on each hard disk drive (or DOS/W95/W98 hard disk file) simultaneously. Since the current price of a 40 GByte EIDE hard drive is only about $ US 100 and not much more for an 80 GByte hard drive, having a few 2 GByte files is not so unreasonable. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 16 20:35:24 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > No such beefs about *nix users. If they can install & run whatever > with user perms, it probably can't break anything. Wait!! I meant to say "it probably can't break anything _important_" :^) Doc From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Apr 16 07:21:44 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:11:37 BST." <000101c1e537$7a2cc180$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <200204161221.NAA02665@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Andy Holt" said: > Aaargh - INCOMING!!! > > Marvin Johnston [marvin@rain.org] said > > I disagree :). Too many times, a mile and a half of quoted text starts > > out the message. I don't care to take the time to scroll down, but > > prefer to see the meat of what is being said at the top. It is > > especially annoying when the subject line doesn't reflect the message > > content ... which is most of the time. > > > So the regular argument now resurfaces on this list. > There is an irreconcilable disagreement between the "old-style" users who > got used to mailing lists with command-line tools for whom the bottom > posting is truly more convenient and the newer users of packages like > Outlook, Netscape, or other "web-style" tools which usually handle threading > quite well and always start by displaying the top of the message - these > users tend to prefer top posting. > > The old guard point out the RFC as justification for their attitude - but > then it was written before the more modern tools became popular. > I don't think modern v. old-style tools is the problem. I don't like top posting because I have to scroll down the message to find out what it's about, then scroll back up to see how the response relates to the original message. My mailer (exmh) displays the top of the messages and it's no help in this situation. > In complex cases bottom (interleaved) posting is necessary, and I have used > that technique in this case (even though it is not really necessary) to > minimise the heat in the flame war. I prefer the interleaved approach as it is more conversational, and all the related information is kept (more-or-less) together. Like this. ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:03:51 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OS/2 running under VMWare, or other emulator for Windoze In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784420@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Bochs is not a good idea on that machine. Bochs is meant to run on > > non-PC's and it's a complete PC emulator. What he wants is > > Plex86, which > > is the system virtualization stuff from Bochs, with none of the PC > > emulation stuff. He already has all that. > > Last I heard, Plex86 was still in the "concept only" stage. > > Is that information outdated, then? They've had sources available for download for a long time. I downloaded them a little while ago, and, with a little effort, I was able to get them to build. Never got around to using it, though. But the point I was trying to make is that Bochs would suck terribly for this kind of job. It's just not the right kind of tool. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:07:37 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <3CBC3308.80807@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I've thought about picking some CLR up, but don't really have a current > use for it. You mention that it will remove corrosion, does that > include rust? Yes that includes rust, but I don't know if using it with PCBs is a good idea yet, since I've never tried it. I would caution you to try it on a junk board first. CLR is meant not only to loosen rust, but to completely dissolve it. Peace... Sridhar > Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > Using a small area of the board where you could correct any damage > > that this substance might cause, try a little CLR... it's a mixture > > sold throughout the midwest (U.S.) that dissolves Calcium, Lime, and > > Rust deposits. Phosphoric acid is one of its components... so be real > > careful. I've never used it on PC boards before, but it can't be beaten > > for removing corrosion off metal parts. > > > > Regards, > > -dq > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:10:43 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Truck full of DEC in Illinois. In-Reply-To: <02b001c1e557$32bac160$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > Just saw this on an eBay page, > > "Reliable Computer Services,Inc. > Since 1985. We have a warehouse FULL of older DEC spare > parts. If you would like to visit our 8,800 sq ft warehouse, please > call for an appointment. > We will not let you leave without your arms, car, van, or > SEMI-TRAILER > FULL!! LIQUIDATION in progress!! > Call Patrick Lind at 815-838-0134 or Email RELCOMSER" > > Sounds like fun for those in the area. > They aren't penny-a-pound, but they sound motivated > and I've dealt with them before. What is the eBay UserID? Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:22:27 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.17532.512100.677424@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Meanwhile, I personally have never had a problem with UPS, and with > > the volume of packages coming & going in this building, I've never seen > > anything bad either. Maybe just a moron for a driver? > > I've had this happen in different states, so if it was a moron > driver, it must've been multiple moron drivers. I've had this happen all over the place. They've destroyed all manner of stuff. Peace... Sridhar From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 16 19:59:30 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Looking for info on an HP-IB cable In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416182110.02cec630@enigma> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020416205930.0082d290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Sounds like it's for an HP 1000 based on the 12009-xxxxx part number. Joe At 06:22 PM 4/16/02 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, > >I recently picked up an HP-IB cable, made by HP, with a >part number of 12009-60015. One end is an HP-IB connector >and the other end is a 15-pin card edge. > >Any ideas what device this cable connects to on the card edge end? >Google isn't very informative with this one. > > >Cheers, > >Dan >www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:35:20 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I have for years received packages regularly that have been shipped via > UPS, and this is the only one that's had any sort of damage. Usually the > packages are small, but not always. > > The point is, UPS publishes packaging guidelines. Use them and be happy. I once had shipped by UPS a 27" Trinitron monitor. It was heavy. It was double boxed, with 8" of noncompressible spray-foam between the two boxes, and another 3" of rigid foam between the inner box and the monitor itself. The monitor was shattered. They must have dropped it from several feet up in the air. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:41:29 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: The CommodoreOne is near! In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > In other words, Dave and Sridhar can say whatever they like one to the > other, all in jest, and it can be understood as such. No problem. > It's not so good when the target of the jest, or even a third party -- > JCW in this case -- can misunderstand that jest to be disrespect. Hey, don't bring me into this... I wasn't participating. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 16 21:43:09 2002 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: Truck full of DEC in Illinois. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200204170243.VAA03286@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > > > Just saw this on an eBay page, > > > > "Reliable Computer Services,Inc. > > Since 1985. We have a warehouse FULL of older DEC spare > > parts. If you would like to visit our 8,800 sq ft warehouse, please > > call for an appointment. > > We will not let you leave without your arms, car, van, or > > SEMI-TRAILER > > FULL!! LIQUIDATION in progress!! > > Call Patrick Lind at 815-838-0134 or Email RELCOMSER" > > > > Sounds like fun for those in the area. > > They aren't penny-a-pound, but they sound motivated > > and I've dealt with them before. > > What is the eBay UserID? > > Peace... Sridhar > patrick-j From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 21:44:06 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: A2065 Ethernet In-Reply-To: <3CBBB6D5.475.44D1AC@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > No. Peter Wendt's program for MCA cards is truly excellent and has > supplied the ADF for many unknown cards of mine but it didn't have this one. > As a fan of MCA I've generally snapped up any I see, and most of the time > with no documentation. Does it have any P/Ns on it or anything? The place I would check first is Thomas-Conrad. Peace... Sridhar > > > > > I also have an unknown MCA board by Pure Data copyrighted 1987 with > > > > > 4 BNC connectors. I had thought it might be an arcnet (which IIRC > > > > > PD was heavily involved with) board. Some sort of hub on a card. > > > > > > > > What kind of chips does it have on it? Usually you can identify a these > > > > kinds of boards based on the chips they use. > > > > > > It's looks like a fairly simple board and there are no significant > > > chips that you can see. The 4 port section chips and components are > > > encased in black plastic-like material, similar to what I've seen on > > > other NICs, each on it's own section of the board. It does have 4 LEDs > > > on the face of the card. To indicate activity I imagine. I tried Peter > > > Wendts MCA card i.d. program to no avail. > > > > That does sound like an arcnet card, although it could also be some sort > > of data acquisition interface. Many arcnet cards do have an epoxy encased > > module for some of the media interface circuitry. > > > > Do you have the .adf file for this board? > > > > -Toth > > > > > lgwalker@mts.net > bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 18:58:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <3CBBC6C7.351E4791@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 15, 2 11:37:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/49082460/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 17:39:49 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: FWD: Re: Goodbye VAX hello ALpha In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 15, 2 10:14:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 621 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/bebf6cbb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 17:35:48 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:31 2005 Subject: SIMON by Milton-Bradley (was RE: Does Anyone Have A) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 15, 2 11:57:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 880 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020416/62332354/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 18:54:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing (link to) Re: Fuse PROM In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 16, 2 00:10:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1019 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/d248eba3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 19:54:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <003b01c1e564$f04c3120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 2 07:52:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/a597a19b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 18:07:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <002201c1e4f9$f09e9980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 15, 2 09:51:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/0b9638f0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 18:09:19 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <20020416044852.EZOK28104.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Apr 16, 2 00:48:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/ceb56769/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 20:01:02 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <003c01c1e564$f0b0e660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 2 08:46:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/745c4632/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 20:03:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <15548.15812.307783.158939@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 16, 2 11:05:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/2d40db65/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 20:08:24 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) In-Reply-To: <3CBC4892.662EA4F0@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 16, 2 08:51:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/43e92d8b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 20:16:51 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784427@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 16, 2 10:59:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1982 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/4af4fde0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 20:22:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <005001c1e565$e4332820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 2 10:43:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/1f601fdb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 20:35:54 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Apr 16, 2 11:28:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/5d2b7331/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 21:14:23 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <00c101c1e576$88ac9d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 2 12:42:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 17085 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/346f5364/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 21:33:26 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: ALU IC information? In-Reply-To: <1E6075FE.1103DB10.00040E53@aol.com> from "BFeely@aol.com" at Apr 16, 2 03:21:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1847 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/bfd15d53/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 16 22:01:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: from "Michael Nadeau" at Apr 16, 2002 07:11:45 PM Message-ID: <200204170301.g3H310P20744@shell1.aracnet.com> > I saw that, and I have my doubts about its "uniqueness." Tempest versions of I'm pretty sure it's not unique, and wouldn't be surprised if Sellam has one. > originals. (GRiD did this for years.) And if this really was such a top > secret system, why did it end up at a salvage dealer? The disk drive used removable disk cartridges, as long as you didn't include the cartridge (which would have to be destroyed) the system can be used for unclassified work, or disposed of. Zane From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 16 22:10:40 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <015901c1e581$eecc68c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Alcohol vapourises quickly ! Over in the Netherlands we've got > Spiritus which is a rather non-agressive 75% alcohol > (ethanol+methanol) solution with some analine added to make it > undrinkable. (It's got a blueish color). If it has methanol in it, it doesn't need anything added to make it undrinkable. Methanol causes blindness, ulcerated stomach, then death. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 16 23:26:30 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 17, 2 02:03:34 am" Message-ID: <200204170426.VAA31670@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I'm wondering how UPS manages to stay in business anymore. I've > It's as bad over here.... > In the 1960s, Flanders and Swann (I think) commented that they'd > discovered a new way to split the atom : Send it by post marked > 'Fragile'. And things have _not_ improved since then. Sounds like them :-) I still chuckle when they mention they're a household word, like slopbucket. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- What happens when you get scared half-to-death twice? ---------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Apr 16 23:17:18 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: Looking for info on an HP-IB cable In-Reply-To: Dan Veeneman's message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:22:08 -0400" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416182110.02cec630@enigma> Message-ID: <200204170417.g3H4HIkW035796@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Dan Veeneman wrote: > I recently picked up an HP-IB cable, made by HP, with a > part number of 12009-60015. One end is an HP-IB connector > and the other end is a 15-pin card edge. > > Any ideas what device this cable connects to on the card edge end? A 12009A card, which is an HP-IB interface for L/XL/A-series HP 1000 computers. -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 16 23:32:40 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: CPLD computing References: <00c101c1e576$88ac9d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBC9D23.1EB6344C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001e01c1e5c8$f917f000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just to keep things straight ... the PLC42VA12 that I mentioned is a device that plugs in where a 22V10 fits. It has vastly greater resources than a 22V10, but it's NOT a CPLD. It's got 42 inputs because you can "bury" the register associated with a particular pin, isolating it from the pin's feedback path, and from the output pin, thereby leaving the pin as input only. The output from the register, however, has, as it always had, a separate feedback path so the 10 output pins have 20 feedback paths associated with their macrocells, one from the register, and one from the pin. There are also two macrocells that have no associated output pins, so they're always buried. This is a considerable enhancement over what a 22V10 offers, aside from the fact that it has many more product terms than the 22V10. A CPLD would have several banks of these, at least three or four, but probably more than forty, with a product term matrix common to all the banks, as well as a product term matrix for each block. more below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 3:52 PM Subject: CPLD computing > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > OK, but that's still not enough to generate _all_ possible functions. > > > > > I'm getting really curious what sort of function one could NEED that requires > > a set of more than 64 products of those 42 inputs, though you can certainly > > use more than that by combining sums if you do need. > > Carry logic found in adders can use up a lot of terms if one is not careful. > I'm not sure I buy that ... the carry is a single product term, isn't it? That's why fast carry terms work faster than their respective sum terms, in physical adders. In lookup tables, it doesn't matter. > FPGA makers take lots of trouble to ensure that you have fast carry logic available. > > > I think that's why this argument has persisted for so long. With programmable > > devices, I can build what I want. With TTL SSI/MSI/LSI you can build what you > > want. We could switch roles, but the fact remains, each approach has > > advantages. I just believe that the advantages of the SSI/MSI/LSI approach > > are diminshing, while the programmable logic approach continues to expand. > But the programmable logic setup is still a mess. I have yet find a > CLEAN hardware description language that is portable, simple and free. > > > If you were ever to want to investigate, thoroughly, at least as thoroughly as > > you could by building such a thing, a system that required such a complicated > > logic function, with as many as 56 ORs of products with 1..20 ANDed inputs, > > you would likely start with a simulator and not with hardware. > > I tend to work bottom up. I start with REAL hardware and build up. > That works OK if you're building stuff you know will work the way you predict because people have built it for years. If you're trying something new, the simulator saves lots of money for hardware you may not ever need. > > > You'd then > > write a top-level functional simulation program and then test it with a sample program. > > (snip) .> Testing is good. How ever it still needs to fit in the hardware. > SInce the hardware hasn't been started at this point, it's virtually infinite, since its only virtual. Once you're convinced it's going to work as you wish, you can progress toward an implementation. Testing, in fact, exhaustive testing of every feature in every combination and range of permutation you can generate is essential. Nothing should ever be comitted to hardware until you're sure of how it works under all conditions. > > > Doesn't this seem less spainful than (a) finding a set of bare wire-wrap > > boards, (b) installing sockets, (c) working out a large schematic design, (d) > > acquiring the long list of parts, only some of which you'll already have,(e) > > integrating the various modules you fabricate and test separately, (f) finding > > the problems and going on only when there don't appear to be any more (else go > > to (C)...) (g) and then, finally, going to the step at which you'd have > > arrived without ever fiddling with any hardware with the former approach? You > > don't really EVER have to implement anything in programmable logic unless you > > want to, but you can use all the tools to support a development in > > SSI/MSI/LSI. > > But debuging TTL is visible. You put a logic probe on the output and > test data in. I favor switches and lights.It is not that I don't like > modern software , I as design should be able to have the final say in > exactly how things are connected even if this means shooting myself in > the foot now and then. > Yes, and it's so slow, even a cheap oscilloscope can show you real features of what's going on. Unfortunately, they don't make oscilloscopes fast enough any more, that you can see what's really going on with an event that happens every ten seconds or so and has a 130 ps duration. The simulator can show you where to look, however, if you've got a simulator and appropriate models for the TTL. You can't stick your 'scope or LA into the programmable logic, so you have to do what you can with the simulator. > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 16 23:35:42 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? References: <003101c1e24f$c9000500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBA7F81.6F7006C@softstar.it> <015901c1e581$eecc68c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3CBCFB9E.7060505@internet1.net> Gravity is something I use too, although, I hadn't actually thought about telling people about it. Something else I use is centrifical (spelling?) force. I put the board on the end of a rope and twirl it around....well okay maybe not, but......... I firmly grip the board, with two hands on larger boards, and swing it back and forth to get as much of the water off as I can. Obviuosly, board size/construction may hinder this. This gets rid of the bulk of the water before I put the board, standing on end, in front if the fan. Oh, and I haven't accidently thrown a board yet :-) One of these days/years I'll write a faq about cleaning computers. I should proabbly order some Alconox, since that is something I haven't used yet. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sipke de Wal wrote: > Fact 4: > > Use gravity! When you take the PCB's out and place the boards vertically in a > warm dry environment, most of the water will run off. Every now and then > you can turn the boards so that it can run-off water from another angle. > > This is a very important aspect of the dry-ing procedure for a lot of the water > will have to be dislodged from under various components on the board > like chips, capacitors etc. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 16 23:50:05 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: OT Women & computers (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) Message-ID: <20020417045138.TNAO1765.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: John Chris Wren > Jesus. And people wonder why women have a hard time in the industry. No kidding! My wife Debbie created our computer store/repair shop, but she ultimately quit because of the disrespect she received from customers. She has ten years experience with telecommunications gear, and Wintel boxes are not much of a challenge for her. Real conversation: Woman enters the store carrying a PC. Woman: "I need help with my computer. Can he help me?" (Points to me, busy swapping out a hard drive.) Debbie: Well, *he's* busy right now. How may I help you? Woman: I need help with my computer. When will he be available? Debbie: I don't know, but *I* can help you right now. Woman: You don't understand, my computer is broken and I need it fixed. Debbie: I can fix your PC if you will just explain the problem to me. Woman: Don't give me that crap! Women don't know anything about computers! This sort of thing happened almost every day. I don't blame Deb at all for leaving the industry. Of course, we're in Florida, so you have to expect some redneck attitudes, but from a *woman*?? Glen 0/0 From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 16 23:57:58 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's References: Message-ID: <3CBD00D6.6070707@internet1.net> They have conveyors that go way up high in some of there distribution centers. If something heavy falls off, it's toast. Also, noncompressible isn't all that great. You need some compression to absorb the shock. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > I once had shipped by UPS a 27" Trinitron monitor. It was heavy. It was > double boxed, with 8" of noncompressible spray-foam between the two boxes, > and another 3" of rigid foam between the inner box and the monitor itself. > The monitor was shattered. They must have dropped it from several feet up > in the air. > > Peace... Sridhar > > > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Apr 16 23:59:33 2002 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: Calcomp Ethernet Adapter M971L - Volunteer repair/Anybody got one spare? Message-ID: <20961.1019019573@www52.gmx.net> So this is going into the third - and, hopefully, last - turn. We had concluded that there is something wrong with the Ethernet adapter on our Calcomp CCL 600 ES laser printer. Now it's even worse - the printer locks up when the interface is installed and does no longer react to its front-panel buttons (On/Offline etc.) On the NIC, the lights for IP and DATA stay lit as long as the printer is on. We don't have the time and the knowledge here to start trying to repair that board, so we hope that somebody out there on the list might throw one in (pref. for shipping costs or little money, but place your prices), or does anybody feel like trying to repair it? Shipping would be from/to Nuremberg, Germany; or, if exchange at the VCF Europe in Munich is possible, I'll show up there and handle things. I'm on digest mode and have no Inet on the weekend, so my answers will be delayed a bit. Thanx in advance Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 17 00:19:53 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: OT Letting it go (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) Message-ID: <20020417052121.UBUX1765.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Christopher Smith > > From: John Chris Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] > > > But then, one thing I have noticed about the list, > > besides being an > > excellent wealth of information and intelligent people, is > > that some don't > > know when to let something end. > > You can count me in that category. I wonder whether it's typical > of the kind of person you'd find on this list? > > As a general observation, technical types tend to push things > further than most people appreciate in several cases. > > Chris That's because we want to be *right.* It took me a long time to learn that I'd rather be happy than right. Glen 0/0 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 17 00:27:01 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: CPLD computing References: <00c101c1e576$88ac9d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CBC9D23.1EB6344C@jetnet.ab.ca> <001e01c1e5c8$f917f000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CBD07A5.C42690D7@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm not sure I buy that ... the carry is a single product term, isn't it? > That's why fast carry terms work faster than their respective sum terms, in > physical adders. In lookup tables, it doesn't matter. Nope it is recursive. C[n] = (A[n] and B[n]) | C[n-1] and (A[n] xor B[b]) > FPGA makers take lots of trouble to ensure that you have fast carry logic > available. Not all of them. Most people think Xlinix is the only FPGA maker. > That works OK if you're building stuff you know will work the way you predict > because people have built it for years. If you're trying something new, the > simulator saves lots of money for hardware you may not ever need. Not all the time. On the FPGA design I have done needed a RS232 uart.I built the uart but got the sense of the start bit wrong. All the software testing would not have found this problem. That is not to say simulators are not useful, I have just found gate level simulations to be less useful than hardware testing of the device. One thing that is very useful is a cross assembler and instruction simulator to get the 'feel' of the architecture just right. > Testing, in fact, exhaustive testing of every feature in every combination and > range of permutation you can generate is essential. Nothing should ever be > comitted to hardware until you're sure of how it works under all conditions. How do you test hardware if you don't build it? > Yes, and it's so slow, even a cheap oscilloscope can show you real features of > what's going on. Unfortunately, they don't make oscilloscopes fast enough any > more, that you can see what's really going on with an event that happens every > ten seconds or so and has a 130 ps duration. What scope? I got a $10 multi-meter and leds and switches. Most of my logic debugging now is the DUH! type of logic bugs. The simulator can show you where > to look, however, if you've got a simulator and appropriate models for the > TTL. You can't stick your 'scope or LA into the programmable logic, so you > have to do what you can with the simulator. The other reason is that using a simulator or HDL for design is that i have to wade thru all the stuff to do some thing simple. Also playing around with CPLD's the most I can reduce logic down to is by 1/3 as most ttl used is MSI. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 17 00:51:59 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:32 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <003601c1e5d3$fd838680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well ... if you're referring to MicroChip ... Those onesies are what the stuff they sell you is good for. The third-party stuff and freeware are both better in most cases. How do you get their stuff to run under RT-11? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:07 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > Hmmm.. There's at least one IC manufacturer who did support hobbyists > > > (by giving away samples, releasing the programming spec, etc) and then > > > discovered they did rather well when said hobbyists recomended those > > > chips for commercial applications. It was basically a form for cheap/free > > > advertising. > > > > > Microcontroller makers seem to provide some simple means for programming their > > devices in all cases. Those means are often quite limited, but generally > > quite adequate for most purposes. > > What do you mean by 'limited'? Provided I can program all the locations > of the internal 'ROM' then I'm happy. Maybe I can't do full > production-grade verification, but that doesn't worry me for making > one-off prototypes (if I was using said chips in production then I would > care about this, but equally I'd have no problem buying the right > commercial programmer). > > > > > > > > > [1] I've seen many HP documents that were distributed to user groups > > > > > under the NOMAS scheme. NOMAS = NOt MAnufacturer Supported. In other > > > > > words, use and enjoy the information, but we're not going to help you > > any > > > > > more. Needless to say, such information (which included things like ROM > > > > > source listings) is very valuable. > > > > > > > [...] > > > That's not what I remember about HP's early calculators, though. I attempted > > to find out what I could about the HP calculators of the early '70's, since we > > had an application for 'em, but all they'd tell us was that everything was > > "proprietary" and they wouldn't tell us anything. > > HP did claim that everything was 'proprietary' in the user manuals, sure. > And in fact some service-centre manuals contain little technical > information other than how to swap boards. > > However, when the HP41 came out, HP were relatively kind to the user > groups. They sent out the 'byte table' (how user program instructions > were stored in memory) to the user group virtually as soon as the machine > was released. And a few years later when said users had figured out > enough of the bus to hook up a 'ROM emulator' (aka an MLDL box) and were > starting to crack the machine code instruction set, HP eventually > supplied the official instruction set and even the ROM sources. > > > > > We did get 'em to work, but bought the TI calculators instead. > > Having used both HP and TI calculators, I would only ever consider the > former for real applications!. > > What exactly were you trying to do? If it was some haardware modification > then you would have been on your own. If it was hooking something up to an > external connector (like the one on the back of a 9100, or the 9815, or > something) then there would have been an official interfacing manual. I > have what's almost an advertising flyer for the 9810/20/30 series which > describes the bus and even gives schematics of the 2 standard HP interface > modules. > I hacked into the keypad matrix in order to use the memory in the calculator to store the contents of 2"-wide traffic counter tapes for later processing. > > > That's not how they presented themselves back in '72-73. I wrote them off > > then and have avoided them since. Since then I've used only one HP product > > Then I have to say you've missed out... > > > > > > But as I've said enough times already, the computer and OS to run said > > > > > software most certainly are not free! > > > > > > > > > Tony, YOU've made the choice to avoid the software and hardware that make > > > > > Linux is supposed to be free. > > Linux is free, which is one reason I run it (the fact that it's stable, > and easy to maintain is another...). But all the _free_ or low-cost > PLD tools I've seen do not run under Linux. > There's a fellow here in Denver who runs the Palasm software, a DOS application, under DOSEMU. It doesn't work with the extended memory add-ons, but then, neither does DOS. > > And the commercial ones all seem to need X. For all I'd prefer a > command-line system (so I could write a shell script round the program) > that would read in a text file at one end (containing the PLD equations, > Hardware Description Language program or whatever) and spit out a binary > file at the other end to program into the device. > Well, the most valuable part of the VHDL suite is the simulator. You can refine your desriptions, simulations, and testbenches all you want. It sounds like you're looking for another excuse not to tap into this very useful technology, though. > > > > Firstly, I am not critising them. I'll just choose not to use their > > > products. Now will you please stop flaming me for making that choice. > > > > > This isn't a flame, it is a caution that you may be isolating yourself from > > the current technology, and that technology would make things much easier for > > you. With the programmable hardware you wouldn't have to resolder wires in > > order to make changes, and you wouldn't have to change connector pinouts > > HAve you ever considered that I might actually prefer soldering wires to > typing in equations/programs on a computer? (I do, FWIW). > > > because you changed the internals of a circuit. Maybe you should consider > > DOSEMU and WINE on some LINUX box. Then you could spend your time > > experimenting with those theoretical concepts as you want to, and generate no > > wasted hardware. > > This sort of arguement comes up all over the place. I've seen it from the > model engineering crowd -- the people who like to design everything on a > mechanical CAD system and let a CNC tool make it .vs. those who like to > get a piece of metal from the scrap box, chuck it in the lathe and start > machining. Or the photographers who like doing digital manipulation of > their images .vs. those who only use traditional silver-based film. And > so on. > If all you want to do is whittle, that's fine. If you want to make something that's going to be of use, some planning is generally required. I've made stuff ad-hoc, but normally got better results if I planned what I wanted before simply cutting away anything that didn't look right. > > The only reasonable response is to agree that _both_ sides are enjoying > their hobby, and that's the only point of a bobby anyway. > > > > > > > However, there's also a difference between 'not suporting' and > > > 'preventing others from supporting'. I don't expect Philips or Intel to > > > sell me an 8051 cross-assembler for linux > > they won't sell it to you, but they'll give you what they have available, and, > > with a little web-search, you can find useable source code that can easily be > > adapted to whatever compiler you have. > > Agreed. THere's a perfectly good 8051 assembler available out there > (released under the GPL) which I use all the time. > BTW, I'm hot after a native-code line-by-line assembler/disassembler for the 805x. I've never seen a resident monitor that had one and I thoroughly dislike being tethered to a PC just to assemble a few dozen lines of code. > > The point is, though, there will never be similar tools for PLDs because > the manufacturers won't (for a variety of reasons, some more reasonable > than others) release the necessary information. > That doesn't seem to bother most folks much. I've heard complaints, but it doesn't stop most folks. > > > > > > > you. If you specifically tell them they're not allowed to build your > > > > > > circuit, as you retain the rights to it, but choose to share the > > > > information > > > > > > > > > > Odd, but when I publish a circuit, I expect people to want to build it. > > I > > > > > am not doing this as some kind of 'how clever I am' advertising! > > > > > > > > > > You just tell them that to protect yourself. If you suggest that they build > > So I tell a lie (Namely 'you may not build this circuit' when in fact I > want them to) in order to protect myself? %deity this world is screwed up! > It surely is! > > > it, you could be considered liable for the solder splat on their lap, and for > > the burn on their privates if they were doing it in their skivvies. > > Thankfully I'm in the UK. I have been known to write 'Experimental > Design' on my circuits, though (a phrase which I was told implied that > the circuits do not necessarily comply with any regulations (EMC, etc) > and that it's up to the constuctor to check that). > > > and it's generous of you to want to do that, but there are risks. > > > > > Using SSI/MSI parts makes for the greatest likelihood the end-user will be > > able to implement your design, but it doesn't increase the chances of > > completing the work, since the supplies of many of those old parts are finite. > > Are you sure that _none_ of the TTL (I am including all 74xxx families > here, HCT, ACT, etc) are still made? I am suprised things like the 8 bit > buffers and latches are unavailable, simply because putting that sort of > function into a PLD used up a lot of I/O pins for little benefit. I am > thinking of things like an address latch for an 8051 microcontroller or > similar. > I don't think I said that. I did, IIRC, say that not all of the old logic is still available. I doubt that any of the "logic" is still being made, but the datapath parts, along with muxes, etc, are still being made. There's no point in making most of it any longer because the programmable stuff is faster, cheaper, etc. The datapath parts are still cost effective, though. > > > I have a couple of old circuits I published back in the '70's, for which I > > doubt anyone will find parts nowadays. If someone becomes accustomed to using > > Oh, agreed, some of the TTL parts are really hard to find now. But > actually, probably easier to find (or to substitute for) than some more > recent PALs/PLDs/etc which have also been discontinued. > Yes, the small PLD's, 28-pins and smaller, particularly in DIP packages, are becoming scarce. Even PLCC parts of, say, 84 pins are become scarce. > > > If, for whatever reasons, you decide you don't want to run those more or less > > current OS' or the platforms that support them, it's a choice you make. I > > routinely see completely functional hardware capable of running the popular > > OS' in the surplus vendors' stores for <$80. I bought a complete HP PC unit > > Not in the UK :-(. > > And of course the purchase price of the computer is not the whole story. > There's the maintenance costs (which are likely to be significant if I > can't just pull the right spare chip out of my junk box). And there's > finding somewhere to put the darn thing! > Ah, yes ... the space problem. I'd say, if it breaks, chuck it, i.e. the motherboard, and give the thing a heart transplant. The brain is still in the hard disk, and that's the same. You can get the typical "last-generation" motherboard for about $20 on eBay. It's really easy if you're not in a hurry, so the thing to do is snag a spare of whatever's in the box you get, but before you need it. That way, (1) the one you are using will never break, and (2) if it does, in 20 minutes it's fixed. > > > I'm sure you understand that IC vendors in business to make money by selling > > their IC's in volume really can't afford to spend more than 100ps per day on > > hobbyists. With that short a time budget, they certainly have to focus on the > > Of course. But as I said before, there's a big difference between 'not > supporting hobbyists' and 'preventing hobbyists from supporting > themselves'. > Well, every feedback I've gotten has treated hobbyists as a nuissance. It seems they generate as many inquries for their $100 per year as the $100,000 per year customers. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 17 01:08:42 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:34 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <004001c1e5d6$551e5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I bought a Xeltek UniPro back in '89. It was a nightmare, and when XELTEK came out with their SuperPro, they sent me one gratis for all the debugging I'd done for them on the UniPro. Now, they've discontinued the SUperPro II, but all the algorithms that work on that model seem to work fine on the orignal. I think the only difference is that the "II" uses the parallel port rather than a dedicated card. Likewise, I have another similar fit-in-the-briefcase type that uses a card in the PC. It also was maintained at no charge for over a decade. The software now avaiable, still free, doesn't support this model any longer. It's a good thing ISP parts are taking over the market. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 6:54 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > Programmers have been a problem for us, the users, as well as for the PLD > > It's a major problem for this user... I really can't keep on updating the > programmer (or the non-free software to drive it) every few weeks. > > As I said, I built the Elektor GAL programmer. A few months after the > article was publisehd, the GALs it could program were discontinued. There > was an update (an add-on board and more software) which I built. But now > the chips that programmer can program are hard to find. I've got a few in > stock, but I don't like designing round parts that are as hard to find as > that. > > And before you tell me that most TTL parts are also discontinued, yes, I > know that. But they're also not hard to find. > > > Some of the vendors of programmable logic do publish the algorithms for their > > ISP programming tools, which you can then implement in your own > > I think most manufacturers do publish the actual way to get the bits into > the chip for ISP chips (particularly RAM-based ones that lose the > configuration on power-down), > > > hardware/software combination. Unfortunately, I've seen no spec's on how to > > develop the configuration of the hardware. > > No, you're forced to use the manufacturers tools, which are either > expensive, don't run on the machine I have, or are hard to use (or > sometimes all 3). > > > > The whole point is, that before there were PALs, then all programmers > > > were PROM (or EPROM) only. But AFAIK no early PALs could be programmed in > > > such programmers, you had to buy/build a new one. > > > > > EPROMS, for some reason, didn't have these limitations. Programming was > > simple and the spec's were in many of the databooks. > > That's one reason that I think the 'impossible to support' reason for not > releasing the PLD programming spec is bogus. It shouldn't be any more of > a problem than releasing the EPROM programming spec. > > > > Learn to read, please. I am not disputing it was documented (I have the > > > original MMI PAL databook and it's in there). I am disputing it's the > > > same as selected a bit in a normal bipolar PROM. > > > > > Which book would that be? > > It's something like the 1984 MMI databook. > > > > > > Does it surprise you that the access mode to the fuse array is different? > > Not really. It would have been a lot more work to add the logic to turn > the fuse array into a PROM-like structure just for programming it, I guess. > > > > The process of programming a fuse in a bipolar PROM and in a PAL is much > > > the same. Similary the process of programming a flash cell in a > > > microcontroller, a flash PROM and a GAL are also much the same as each > > > other. And yet most (but not all, agreed) microcontroller, flash PROM and > > > EPROM manufacturers do document their programming algorithms, but few, if > > > any, of the PLD manufacturers do. Why are PLDs the only devices that > > > cause support problems. > > > > > Believe me, I've got no idea, but that business of "support headaches" comes > > up every time I broach the subject with the factory applications guys. They > > probably feel they've got to protect their technology. One of the "universal" > > Yes, that's more like it. The reason 'support headaches' would appear to > be bogys. But if they documented the programming specs of their device > then anyone could figure out how it really worked. Which they may not want... > > > > And to claim that microcode is not a special case of a state machine is > > > plain wrong! > > > > > They'll listen to you when you become part of a market that uses 100K pieces > > I am not interested in people 'listening'. But I will still stick to my > claim that there's no reasonable definition of 'state machine' that > excludes the microcode + sequencer. > > > > Are you incapable of believing that the multiple pipelines you just > > > mentioned could not have been built in TTL. Of course they could. OK, > > > they'd not be as fast as an FPGA or ASIC implementation, but so what. > > > They would be faster than a traditional processor built in TTL. And that > > > would be enough to prove that the design worked, and that this was a way > > > of speeding up other processors. > > > > > They WERE built in TTL, back when TTL was the relevant technology and they had > > Fine. So presumably any otehr processor developments _could be built with > TTL. > > > no better options. Even back then, it was more sensible to simulate the new > > architecture to see whether it really offered the enhancement it seemed to > > Having had so many problems with so-called simulators, I quickly learnt > that for anyting even mildly unusual, it was quicker to just build the > darn thing and see what it did. > > > > Never underestimate what hobbyists can do. FWIW, plenty of hobbyists have > > > designed their own processors and produced at least a monitor program for > > > them. And it doesn't take that long. > > > > > So what? Every EE student has had to do that in order to get his sheepskin. > > Actually, over here it's very rare to find an EE who's designed a > processor :-( > I didn't say a hobbyis couldn't make any advances. I did say a hobbyist wasn't likely to make any advances using TTL. > > Anyway, you were the one claiming that it was impossible for a hobbyist > to make any advances. I dispute this. There's no reason at all to believe > that a serious hobbyist could not come up with a totally new > architecture, build it (using TTL, FPGAs, or whatever _he_ chooses) and > write enough software to prove it works and can be useful. > > > > Also the power consumption is hardly a problem either. My old 11/45 has a > > > 250W PSU for the CPU boards (only). Many PC power supplies can now exceed > > > that. 2 or 3 PSUs taken from old PCs will power any TTL-based processor > > > you're likely to build. > > > > > a 9-volt battery is probably capable of powering any CPU I'd be likely to > > build. > > So? Provided we each have a 5V supply capable of supplying the current we > each need, that's all that matters! > Power is a concern. If it's possible to do something with 50 mW, it should be criminalized to do the same thing with 5 kW. > > > > > > > > doing serious development, even at the amateur level, use simulators to > > > > > > I will use a simulator when somebody makes one that I can trust. Meaning > > > that it passes all of my little test circuits. Since that's not happened > > > yet, I don't feel I can trust the results of the simulator. > > > > > Well, the industry has relied on them since back when I was in college. If > > you don't trust someone else's work, proven over two or three decades of > > I've had so many problems caused by trusting others (not just simulators, > all sorts of things), that I have learnt _never_ to trust anyone if my > life or reputation depends on it. Check first. Check again. > > > constant use by hundreds of thousands of engineers, write one that's better. > > Why bother? It's quicker to just buld the circuit, and at least a > physical circuit has some relation to the real world. > Well, if you think it's easier to build a circuit with 800-1000 components on the off-chance that you've done everything right, then I congratulate you. I prefer to use the belt-and-suspenders approach and verify with all the tools at my disposal. > > > > > > > Even then, there's no reason to believe the traces from the simulator > > > have any relation to reality unless you've actually verified them against > > > a logic analyser. > > > > > So do that! I do it from time to time. > > It's darn hard to probe the output of an internal logic block on an FPGA > or a CPLD. Yes you can route internal nodes out to pins (I've done that > often enough), but if you're not careful, that will change the timing of > internal signals (as they're all rerouted) and willpossibly remove the > glitch you're actually looking for. > That should be no problem for you, since you don't use those devices, as they require software you decline to use. > > (Oh, and the FPGA simulator I attempted to use was useless for finding > glitches. It didn't find them where the did exist. It did find them where > they couldn't exist (like on the outputs of D-types, well away from clock > edges). > > > > Incidentally, a board I am designing at the moment contains a > > > microcontroller, an 8 bit latch, a 3 to 8 decoder (for which a '138 is > > > _perfect_ with just the right enables), a 2 input AND, a 2 input NAND and > > > an inverter. Will you please tell me why a PLD is superior to a single > > > 74x00 for those last 3 gates? > > > > > It probably isn't, but you could, of course, reduce the entire combinatorial > > circuit to a small PLD, but I don't know the details. > > It wouldn't help much (and would make the PCB more difficult to route -- > c.f. the earlier comments on those single-gate chips). > One could probably use a Xilinx 9536 to replace all the logic, including the latch. In fact, you could just roll the microcontroller into the programmable logic, but not with a $5 CPLD. Cygnal is pushing a line of 805x types that live as hard logic in an FPGA. ATMEL is doing similar stuff as are several other vendors. Most of these run fast enough to be interesting. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 17 01:23:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <004601c1e5d8$5a2734a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 7:01 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > Yes, supply of costly parts is a problem. However, once you're in the process > > of designing a device, it's not helpful to be constrained by what you have or > > Are you saying that I should design round parts I can't get? Becuase I > fail to see how that could ever be useful to me... > No, absolutely not! I'm saying you should design only with parts you're certain you can get when the ones you've designed in decide to break. It's easier to stock programmable parts, since you don't have to stock a wide range of them. > > > what you can easily get. In the '80's, there wasn't anything, TTL-wise, that > > was particularly hard to get, so you designed with the stuff as though you had > > it all at your disposal. Occasionally there would be shortages, with long > > lead-times, that fouled up delivery schedules and manufacturing. In '80 and > > '81, ISTR that 74LS38 and LS245 were in such demand that it didn't matter what > > I remember that. '245s were like gold dust in the UK. We used the 4 bit > versions ('243?) as that was all we could get in 1-off quantities... > > > Last month, I had to build a programmer for a microcontroller. It required > > only three components other than the MCU. There was an oscillator, a MAX232A, > > and a 74HCT125. I had no trouble getting a suitable oscillator, and I > > generally have a few MAX232's around. It took weeks to find the HCT125, > > though, given that I didn't want to pay $10 for shipping of a $.25 part. In > > Well, I can generally find plenty of other components I could use from > such companies. So it would be $10 shipping for perhaps a $100 order... > There's that $100 that would buy you an almost-current-generation PC with an installed OS. > > > the meantime, I'd built the thing with a GAL16V8. Overkill, well, true, but I > > didn't have to deal with the widespread search. > > As I said, over here I could get the HCT125 much more easily than the 16V8. > Over here too, but I already had the programmable part (I pulled it out of a Pentium motherboard where it was socketed). I have plenty of them around, but I was looking for an HC/HCT 125. > > > > > Aside from the pinout, there's little you can't build in a 16V8 that would > > otherwise fit in a 20-pin packaged TTL part, and you don't have to search. > > That's probably true. Hang on, I'd love to see you fit a '245 into a 16V8 ! > Your're right, the bidirectional parts, e.g. '245, '543, '646, etc would be a problem in 20-pin parts. > > The 16V8 cost around $0.60 last time I bought 'em, and is one of those parts > > Well, admittedly I've not bought them for a bit, but last time I bought a > 16V8 (new, not surplus), it cost about 10 times that. > It must have been a while ago. I bought them from an international distributor for $0.60 in a single rail (18 pieces) plus shipping. The shipping was a bear, though, since the vendor, who'd charged me on my credit card sent the order FedEx, COD, with Saturday delivery, even though I told him that any delivery sooner than 90 days was adequate. I haven't ordered from that distributor since. > > > As for prototyping quantities of Xilinx FPGA's, I doubt you'll find a TTL > > vendor as willing to give you samples as the Xilinx people are. This wasn't > > We never got free samples of Xlinix chips in the UK when I was using them. > Their policies here in the U.S. have gotten quite a bit more liberal. I think it's the competition. When I was using the 2000 and 3000 series parts, (early 1990) at which time I was designing the logic and someone else, more adept with the tools, was handling the implementation details (on an Apollo system), even the small parts cost $200 or so. Then, XILINX had the market pretty much to themselves. Altera was making mid-sized CPLD's, (Max-5000 series) at their top end and, since Cypress was their fab, Cypress made the same parts as thir '340 series. Today, there are much cheaper parts all around and many more manufacturers. There aren't many convenient packages, though. > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 17 01:29:10 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <3CBD00D6.6070707@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > They have conveyors that go way up high in some of there distribution > centers. If something heavy falls off, it's toast. Also, > noncompressible isn't all that great. You need some compression to > absorb the shock. Actually, you want noncompressible foam so that it doesn't get compressed, making empty space into which your equipment can fall. The main reason why newspaper is a bad packing material. You want something that will absorb shock *without* compressing. Peace... Sridhar > Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > I once had shipped by UPS a 27" Trinitron monitor. It was heavy. It was > > double boxed, with 8" of noncompressible spray-foam between the two boxes, > > and another 3" of rigid foam between the inner box and the monitor itself. > > The monitor was shattered. They must have dropped it from several feet up > > in the air. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > > > > > > From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Apr 17 02:29:03 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: References: <15548.17532.512100.677424@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417172532.028809a0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 12:31 PM 16/04/2002 -0400, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: >Here's a data point for you. And another (Australian one). Years ago when RZ28s were new disk drives and StorageWorks was a new concept I was Senior Systems Programmer looking after a VMS cluster (this story is sufficiently old it might even be on topic :-). In those days RZ28s in SBB were about AUD$3K and we'd ordered 20. My office overlooked the loading bay and I watched in horror as the delivery driver DROPPED the disks off the back of the truck onto the ground (say 4 feet). He couldn't understand why I wasn't going to sign for the delivery - I told him to take them back. Digital changed their preferred courier shortly thereafter..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 03:02:00 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? Message-ID: I know there are a few boatanchor fans here on the list, so I figured I'd check here before spending yet another hour arguing with Google... Basically, where are the good boatanchor related mailing lists and resources at? I'm looking for resources on restoration and building home brew tube based gear. I have a National NC-2-40-CS receiver that I was given back around 1995 or so, which needs its power transformer rebuilt/replaced, in addition to lots of other minor repairs. Unfortunately, the former/original owner of that receiver passed away before he could find the manuals for it that he had filed away. A couple of weeks ago, I was given an unfinished home brew 2 Meter Receiver that is about 50-60% assembled. It was built by a friend of mine who passed away about 2 years ago. Today, while cleaning out more old parts and gear from his former shop, I found the faded plans for it and a matching transmitter. Both appear to have been hand copied from the October 1957 issue of QST. I don't currently know when I'll have time to work on these projects, but I'd like to have the resources and information I'll need available when I find some free time. -Toth From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 16 19:05:44 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 Message-ID: The VCF is auctioning off another Apple-1 computer. Complete information on the auction can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/ The auction will take place from April 19 through April 21. See URL above for complete information. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Wed Apr 17 04:53:41 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E25@BUSH02> Message-ID: <3CBD4625.83C31D0C@Vishay.com> Lee, the point is: > running only one in "voltage source" mode, the other(s) in > "current source" mode effectively. > > This is how any group of paralell power supplies works. And this requires the over-current protection to not shut down the individual supply, but instead have it contribute as much as can safely be done. On the other hand... > If the outputs are overcurrent protected then a faliure of too many > supplies should shut down the whole thing. Trouble is it often > doesn't work that way. This will be inhibited by the above-mentioned load-sharing feature, so you need some kind of "communication" between the supplies in order to be able either to share load or to completely shut down all others instead of running them in current-limiting mode after some have failed. > Use enough supplies so that one faliure is tollerable. you can > then hot swap the dud supply. This would even take us further, into redundancy. Nice idea! The only thing that needs preparation for this may be mechanics: you wouldn't want to try unscrewing thick power wires and risking them to touch any other metal parts inside a running system... My remark... > However, this setup may get difficult if loading varies widely. ... was referring to the effect of individual supplies going back and forth between current-limiting and voltage-limiting mode, which can indeed make them perform very poorly. I take this for agreed. With a constant load, you could avoid this problem by properly designing the system. > Usually it isn't a problem as long as there is no minimum > load requirement for the individual supplies. Yes, if minimum loading would be required, things would get worse. In this case, you would need a way of shutting down one or more of the bunch completely in order to comply with the minimum loading requirement for the others. We get to a point where a microcontroller makes sense to control this, and I have seen this in real systems. So, I think the bottom line is: running PSUs in parallel is something that really can be done, but there are several bells and whistles you need to take into account. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 05:07:36 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: SIMON by Milton-Bradley (was RE: Does Anyone Have A) In-Reply-To: References: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 15, 2 11:57:43 pm Message-ID: <3CBD5778.8612.2B0288D@localhost> > There's also a Velleman 'Classic TV Game' kit. > > But Velleman kits generally behave as claimed. > I was given this kit as a christmas present, I built it up over the christmas lunch (of course) and proceeded to play Pong on it with the rest of the family. Darned good kit (very simple assembly but then hours of nostalgic fun). I will have to try a Simon next! greg From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 05:46:06 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: OT Women & computers (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) In-Reply-To: <20020417045138.TNAO1765.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Woman: Don't give me that crap! Women don't know anything about > computers! > > This sort of thing happened almost every day. I don't blame Deb at all for > leaving the industry. Of course, we're in Florida, so you have to expect > some redneck attitudes, but from a *woman*?? I dunno about Florida, but in Texas, the women are mostly a LOT more rednecked about women's "frailties" than the men. Doc From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 05:59:47 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: OT Letting it go (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) Message-ID: <000701c1e5fe$fdaa39d0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > From: Christopher Smith > > > > From: John Chris Wren [mailto:jcwren@jcwren.com] > > > > > But then, one thing I have noticed about the list, besides being an > > > excellent wealth of information and intelligent people, is that some don't > > > know when to let something end. > > > > You can count me in that category. I wonder whether it's typical > > of the kind of person you'd find on this list? > > > > As a general observation, technical types tend to push things > > further than most people appreciate in several cases. > > That's because we want to be *right.* It took me a long time to learn that > I'd rather be happy than right. They're not the same thing???? ;) From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 06:32:16 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: OT Letting it go (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) In-Reply-To: <000701c1e5fe$fdaa39d0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > > From: Christopher Smith > > That's because we want to be *right.* It took me a long time to learn that > > I'd rather be happy than right. > > They're not the same thing???? Only when my mouth is firmly *closed*. And my hands far away from the "send" key.... :^P Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 17 07:29:12 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <002601c1e60b$7b5ce9c0$3a7b7b7b@rdf_domain_01.domain.com> From: jpero@sympatico.ca >I wondered whom is right? > >cathode oxide or >heater coating? The heater looses emissivity. Also the oxide from ION bombardment and local heating from the electron beam gets burned. In some systems the HV PS tends to fade over time as well! I have a bunch of Acer tubes that did the latter when run at 800x600. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 17 07:44:19 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:36 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: <007b01c1e60d$983a3780$3a7b7b7b@rdf_domain_01.domain.com> UPS... Another data point. We build RTD and RTD based assemblies, One time two probes were shipped to a vendor and we get an RMA request... Seems the probes were BENT. Now to appreciate that you have to understand these were .25" od probes (in a 316L sheath) and that inside a 1"od inconel thermowell (1"od .25" id) and they were BENT. UPS denied any culpability, they also paid. Allison From meltie at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 17 08:15:26 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <1019049339.2560.91.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 23:28, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! Hmm, what about the reference design that DEC did for a Set Top Box? Nickname "shark", it had a StrongARM, Compactflash and PCMCIA, network, serial, RF out etc etc, all in a package about 5" square and 1" high. Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 17 02:34:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: TTL computing References: Message-ID: <006a01c1e616$d64e28c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: Re: TTL computing > > > > This item is getting to be rather large... > > Does your mail software not have a way of deleting lines from the message > you're replying to? > > [ARD's odd circuits for fun only] > > > I'm curious in what way doing this sort of thing in discrete logic has over > > Becuase I find it more enjoyable to build it that way. And it's easier to > see what's going on and to test it. As I said, they're for my amusement only. > > > doing it in programmable hardware. (Take a look at the field-programmable > > analog hardware offered at Lattice, for example.) As for the technique > > itself, I remember reading that Siemens had some hardware that did this sort > > of thing about 20 years ago, so there's plenty been written about it. > > Sure. I was actually doing this perhaps 15 years ago. The point is, I > like to try things out for myself. I find things easier to understand > with the physical circuit in front of me, 'scope or meter or whatever > clipped onto it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I live and die on what's real. Engineers don't get paid for coming up > > with > > > > things that SHOULD be. The things that exist only in the subjunctive > > don't > > > > > > Which implies, I guess, that you don't believe there will ever be any new > > > ideas. > > > > > It doesn't imply that at all. It does suggest, however, that if you're trying > > Well, if engineers aren't going to come up with things that 'SHOULD be', > then who is? > > > to exploit new thinking, you shouldn't be weighed down with archaic > > implementation techniques. > > Why? Why does the implementation technique matter _at all_ ? > > > > > If you have a concept you want to explore, you ought to be able to convince > > yourself of its validity by thinking it through, the verify that validity with > > extensive simulation (which you clearly don't believe useful, in spite of the > > Simulation is not going to convince me of anything. I see no reason to > believe that the simulator has any relation to the real world at all... > Do you trust any software at all? > > > fact the rest of the world has accepted it, then implement it in a > > I know plenty of people who don't accept simulation either. Mostly those > who've tried it and had a lot of problems as a result. > > > programmable hardware testbed because that doesn't require you to buy an > > specific hardware, and then stress it in various ways to determine its > > sensitivities. Building just one example of a circuit would not really prove > > that the design is sound. It only proves that you can make it work ... once. > > Whereas simulating it doesn't prove it works at all... > There's plenty of room for disagreement there. > > And FWIW, 'testing' a circuit is not just applying power and seeing if it > works. Even if it does work, I'd still be making a lot of measurements on > it, and trying the effect of changes, just to see how marginal (or > otherwise) it is. > I'd be interested in knowing how you check for "marginal." If it fails once in 10^9 times it fails. Where do you draw the line, and how do you measure it? > > > > > In a PROM, regardless of how many imputs you want, you have to program > > them > > > > all, and there's no software that does it for you. That in itself is > > already > > > > > > Of course there's software to do that. In fact it's simpler than logic > > > minisation for a PAL. Here's the algorigthm (inputs I(N), I(N-1), .. > > > I(1), I(0) ) > > > > > > For I(N) = 0 to 1 do > > > For I(N-1)=0 to 1 do > > > ... > > > For I(1) = 0 to 1 do > > > For I(0) = 0 to 1 do > > > address = I(N)*2^N + I(N-1)*2^(N-1) + ... + I(1) * 2^1 + I(0) * 2^0 > > > bit = desired_boolean_function(I(N),I(N-1),...,I(1),I(0)) > > > program_PROM (address,bit) > > > > > ... and just exactly WHAT does this do? (BTW, it's a mite confusing keeping > > It generates the bitmap for a PROM for an arbitrary combinatorial logic > function, of course. Do you really not know how to do that? You just try > all the input states, calculate the function, and store said result in > the bitmap. > It looks like nonsense to me ... but perhaps it's just the notation. You keep referring to an arbitrary combinatorial function, yet you've yet to lay one on the table that is complex enough to use all the inputs yet exceed the available product terms. You've never indicated what such a might do. It looks, also, like the example above would require only a single product term. A highly flexible PLD has a large number of inputs not because it needs many per function, but in order to make several unrelated functions available from a single device, putting things in practical terms. Clearly, if what you want is a PROM, then you should use one, but I've yet to see a PROM that would fit in a 24-pin package, yet provide 42 address inputs. (just kidding!) In fact, I doubt very seriously that there are any PROMs with 42 address inputs available today. If there are any, it's doubtful they'd be fast enough to use for logic. > > Now admittedly this is going to take a ridiculous time for a large number > of inputs (so long as to be impractical if not impossible! [1]). But most > such functions (e.g. the multiplier example) have enough 'structure' that > you wouldn't do it this way. > > [1] As a rough estimate, assuming you can calculate 10^6 terms per second > (not impossible on a modern computer, I guess), it would take 50 days to > work it out for a 42 input function! > and how long running RT-11? > > > the I's straight, and figuring out what, exactly, your ellispsis represents, > > but, overall, it still looks like a single product term will do it. That's > > not the sort of function that you said you'd need a PROM to implement. > > That depends on the defintion of 'desired_boolean_function'. If that's > complex, then a single product term most certainly won't do it. > > > > > > Simpler, is a pretty nebulous concept, but I'm here to say that simpler means > > you use the tools that are freely available to do the "dirty-work" including > > Oh, right. I thought you menat the chip itself was simpler. You certainly > seemed to imply that in earlier messages. > Well, OK... simpler in its application. Since it's normally a technology applied to simple problems like small FSM's and decoders, and some random logic. > > > translation from source, reduction, and production of the JEDEC file and/or > > That's only because somebody's written that software. In fact the > software to fit a boolean equation into a PROM is conceptually simpler! > That may be why you don't see it out there. > > > on fusible-link devices) It means you don't have to write your own tools, and > > I't rather trust tools I'd written myself as I know how I intended them > to behave under all circumstances... > Maybe you'd like to look at the now nearly 30-year old SPICE program. It was originally written in Fortran, IIRC, and on an old DEC war-horse. In its various incarnations it's a program that's taught in EE schools throughout the world and widely used as a reference on how things really behave. It's been grown into a mixed-mode simulator so you can simulate both digital and analog functions, and the interactions between them. It supports transient, DC, AC, analysis, with monte-carlo to help with sensitivity analysis. If you need precise models, nearly any vendor can provide them. Even models of common TTL functions are included in many SPICE model libraries. > > > it means that you can, for the most part, rely on the resulting output. The > > machine on which you accomplish these things is just a tool, like a wrench. > > It's not a deity, and doesn't need special consideration. Like a hammer, when > > it fails to meet my needs, I repair/replace the offending component, or chuck > > the whole thing and replace it, just as I would with a screwdriver that no > > long works well. If I can't afford a new tool I need, I consider a 2nd hand > > As an aside, any true engineer (especially one working on precision > machinery) had better know how to regrind a screwdriver blade! > Considering how many screwdrivers come from the factory with blades > unsuitable for certain screws. > It certainly gives me pause to know that there are still fellows out there who refuse to use a socket wrench, though. > > > You're a free person and are allowed to do pretty much whatever you want, but, > > IF you consider your mental processes to be of any value at all, aside from > > your own amusement, and IF you think you can come up with something that's of > > use, WHY would you encumber yourself with 1970's tools? > > Becasue as I've said so many times, I'll use Computer _Aided_ Design > tools when they actually aid me to design. Rather than hold me back... > > > It's fun to play with those old-timers, and they do, after all, still compute > > Yes, which is why I'm on classiccmp. To be honest, I am here to get away > from all the modern junk! > The old-timers were "modern junk" once. > > > > To turn it round. If I design the PCB for PROM + latch then I know that > > > no matter what logic function I end up needing, it'll fit because the > > > PROM can generate any n-input logic function. But if I chose the PAL, > > > there's a chance the function I want won't fit into the PAL. > > > > > What? Are you suggesting that you'd design a PCB without knowing what logic > > functions you need? You've already said that it's not a given that such a > > You seemed to imply you'd lay out the board before designing the PLD... > It's done all the time. CPLDs don't care what pins you assign for what. Routing and timing are deterministic. You can assign pinouts before desiging the first gate of logic with nearly complete certainty that your logic will fit just as you desire, even though you don't desire it yet. > > > ROM even exists. I'm still curious what sort of a logic function you think > > you might encounter that you couldn't implement, including latches, etc, in a > > 42VA12 or something on that order. Remember, it has both arrays programmable, > > and it has 64 product terms per sum term. (look in the "Signetics > > Programmable Logic Devices" Data Handbook, from Philips, 1990) > > My guess is that some arithmetic functions (parallel multiplier, divider, > something like that) would not fit. > It might not fit for the simple reason that there aren't enough I/O's. A similar CPLD would probably handle that sort of task, but not an SPLD like this. It's the number of product terms the puzzles me. I've run into problems with the software tools wherein the tool has balked at the way in which I specified an clause in a FSM description, because it initially produced too many product terms to a given sum. Careful restatement of the description cleared that up. I have also run into a few cases in a 22V10 where I had to move a given equation to a different macrocell with more product terms because I was using XOR syntax to describe a counter. That generates a lot of product terms that are subsequently reduced. I've really never just simply run out of product terms, except on a 20RA10, where there are only 4 of them per sum. > > > > I've not looked at the device, but how about an arbitrary set of 12 bits > > > (to be decided at program-time) from the product of a 15*15 parallel > > > multiplier? (I'm assuming that if I want 12 outputs,then I have 30 pins > > > left for inputs -- if I have more, then just increase the input word size, > > > please :-)) Large adder arrays are notoriously difficult to fit into PALs > > > (there were even some PALs with XOR terms -- the 16X4, etc) to help with > > > this). A parallel divider (produces the quotient and remainder in one > > > clock cycle) is likely to be even worse. > > > > > How many ROMs of what size would it take to do what you're suggesting? The > > 1 4-terrabit one, presumably :-) > > > > > > > > Otherwise, I'll propose the following lossless compression system : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Read <2^n> bits from a file. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Regard them as the 'truth table' for an arbitrary input, one > > > > output, > > > > > > > logic function (this step is OK) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) Turn that function into the equivalent 'PAL fuse map' (which you > > > > claim is > > > > > > > always possible, moreover, it takes fewer (than 2^n) bits to specify > > > > this). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) I now write out this smaller number of bits to the output file. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If step (3) is always possible, then we have a compression system > > that > > > > > > > reduces the size of all possible input files. Which is clearly > > > > impossible! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that too, but the PAL does it with fewer fuses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that should tell you something is 'wrong'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not exactly, since the PROM requires you to represent all the states > > of > > > > the > > > > > > inputs, while the PAL allows you to use only the ones that are > > relevant. > > > > > > > > > > Do you seriously believe that the compression scheme I've proposed can > > > > > always work? Because if you do, I've got a bridge for sale! > > > > > > > > > You can implement functions that don't do what you want. I'd be surprised > > if > > > > you haven't done that. > > > > > > Eh? Would you mind explaining what the heck you mean here? > > > > > I'm saying that if you design a function that doesn't work, that doesn't mean > > you can't implement that function. You shouldn't expect a compression scheme > > that doesn't work to work in programmable logic. > > This proves you've not understood one word of what I've been saying. The > fact that the compression scheme doesn't work has nothing to do with > programmable logic. Rather, it shows that there _must_ be functions that > will fit into the PROM that won't fit into the PAL. Because if that was > not the case, the compression scheme would work. And that is trivial to > disprove. > Well, you're the one who said it wouldn't work ... I've been saying right along that if you need a PROM, you should use one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I haven't given this example a moment's thought. > > > > > > Ah, right. Probably becuase it proves there are functions you can put > > > into a PROM that you can't put into a PAL of smaller size (same number of > > > ins and outs, but fewer 'fuses'). > > > > > No... only because you're looking for things that fit PROMs with external > > registers, while you're not considering what sorts of functions it is that you > > There are no external registers. I am considering only purely > combinatorial functions for the moment. > > > > Let me go through it again. Suppose, to keep things simple, we just have > > > a 20 input, one output PAL (say a 20V8, but only using one output. This > > > takes a lot less than 1 megabit to progam it, right? > > > > > > So I propose the following. > > > > > > 1) Read it one megabit of data > > > > > > 2) Regard those 2^20 bits as the outputs for a 20 input boolean function. > > > If you like, think of burning those 2^20 bits into a 1 megabit PROM, and > > > figuring out just what boolean function it now generates. > > > > > Have you got a part number for a 1 Mbit x1 PROM? > > Sure.. A 128K byte EPROM (What's that? 27010 or something?) and a '151 > mux. OK, you don't like TTL, so program an 8 input mux into any PLD with > 11 inputs, one output, and 8 product terms. > > Anyway, the fact that you can't find a 1Mbit PROM is irrelevant to the > argument. All we need to show is that a 1Mbit PROM _could_ exist and > would have the desired property of implelementing any 20 input logic > function. And that there's a 1-1 mapping between logic functions and > bitmaps, actually (which there is in this case). > > > > > > > > 3) Generate the PAL fuse map that generates the same function in a 20V8. > > > By the above assumptions, this is less than 1 megabit in size. > > > > > I'm not sure where this is supposed to lead. Normally one starts with a > > That is obvious! > > The whole point is, I am now looking for a way to express _any_ 20 input > combinatorial function using fewer than 2^20 bits. If I can find a way to > do this, then I can replace the PROM with this 'smaller' device _always_. > And so I can transform the 2^20 bits from the original file into a > smaller number of bits. And that process is reversable. That's _exactly_ > what I'd want for a 'perfect' compression scheme. > Why all the hand-waving and generalities? How about a REAL and complete function that can't be expressed in the resources in a 42VA12, which lives in a 24-pin skinnydip, meaning that in order to gain some inputs, you can give up some outputs, so let's not fiddle with what's POSSIBLE, just what's real ... just a real-world requirement that is likely to come up in a logic design problem. It's dimensioned 42x105x12, so there are nominally 12 sets of 42x105 fuses, not all of which are used for logic. > > > > This process is reversable (in that given a PAL fuse map we can generate > > > the boolean function from it (this is what a PAL does in hardware :-)), > > > and thus can generate the PROM bitmap to do the same thing. And thus can > > > recover the original 2^20 bits. > > > > > You're putting too much emphasis on the fuse map, which nobody sees, and not > > That's because I want to > > a) count how many possible ways there are of programming the PAL (as > compared to the PROM) > > b) I want to regard the PAL program as an ordered set of bits. > > The fuse map is the obvious way to do both of these. > > > on the relationship between the inputs and output, though one certainly > > exists. > > > > > > However, it's also clear that there are many more PROM bitmaps than PAL > > > fuse maps. How can we then have a 1-1 mapping between 2 finite sets of > > > different sizes? Obviously we can't. > > > > > And what, exactly does that prove? > > 2 things : 1) the compression scheme can't work because > > 2) There will be sets of 2^20 bits that correspond (when burnt into the > PROM) to combinatorial functions that can't be generated by the PAL. > > > > > Do you really never consider non-existant but possible devices for the > > > purposes of discussion/arguement? > > > > > That's the reason programmable logic exists. Devices are needed, but don't > > Again that comment shows you've not understood what I am saying. I am not > interested in actually making or using that 16L8-varient. I am just using > it for the purposes of discussion. It's easier to reason about that > device, and the arguments can then be translated back to a real 16L8. > and I'm not interested in discussin unrealistic problems right up to the moment they become real. I don't care that a PAL can't contain the same number of bits as a PROM. If I need the whole set of bits, I'll use a PROM. They do different jobs and it's solving the problem that interests me, not avoiding that. > > > With one output, you could generate only one state of a state machine, so I > > imagine it would take several of the hypothetical devices to which you refer > > to do anything useful. I find it difficult to imagine working with a finite > > state machine with as many inputs as you suggest. That suggests a pretty wide > > state register, and separate outputs, perhaps, and quite a few additional > > Isn't that similar to what's normally called 'microcode' :-). I've been > trying to argue they're pretty close... > > > If you were ever to want to investigate, thoroughly, at least as thoroughly as > > you could by building such a thing, a system that required such a complicated > > logic function, with as many as 56 ORs of products with 1..20 ANDed inputs, > > you would likely start with a simulator and not with hardware. You'd then > > You might, I wouldn't. Let's leave it at that. > > > write a top-level functional simulation program and then test it with a sample > > program. After that, you'd descend, step-by-step in to the bowels of each > > module, simulating it as you think you'd implement it, substituting thousands, > > or tens of thousands of ANDs and ORs, etc, for what was a bunch of registers > > or adders, or whatever, refining your work as you progress to ever lower > > levels until you've arrived at a simulation, at the gate-level, of what you > > eventually plan to build. At every step of the way, you can test the > > simulation. If you've written your simulator well, when you're done, you can > > construct the device at the gate-level or at the SSI/MSI/LSI level. Your > > result should quite well match the simulation. In my estimation, all this is > > much simpler, because the tools already exist, and easier because there's help > > available, if it's done with the modern hardware and accompanying tools. With > > the free tools from Xilinx, for example, you have Verilog an VHDL, schematic > > entry, graphical FSM entry, and lower-level PAL-style (ABEL) tools, all of > > which can be used together. You can design in the large or at the SPLD level. > > You can design a system and verify its logic without ever soldering a wire, > > and get representative simulations of your work via the simulator that they > > provide. Further, you can specify your design at behavioral, structural, and > > register-transfer level and migrate from one to the other as needed in order > > to specify more precisely what you want. You can even specify the design > > using your own TTL library with timing and all as specified for the type of > > logic you intend to use rather than using XILINX programmable logic, though I > > don't know that for certain. You might have to do this last step in someone > > else's freeware HDL. > > > > Doesn't this seem less painful than (a) finding a set of bare wire-wrap > > Actually, it sounds like pure hell to me... I'd much rather be soldering > and testing than typing on a computer... > So what does that mean? Do you simply string together bits of logic at random like the infinite number of chimps trying to type a Gutenberg Bible? I'd think not. Do you plan your logic at all? Do you, or can you even, rigorously test your concepts before attempting to realize them? How do you plan out a 32-bit adder/subtractor that produces a sum/difference in 30 ns? This software is all there to help you do that. If you think you can do the job better than the guys who use this software effectively, I'd say you're kidding yourself. One man, working alone can save 75% of the time it once took a whole team to do the job of designing a large and complex set of logic and do so with better than twice the certainty of success. Of that 75%, probably half is in meeting time not wasted on meetings, but the rest is on work that the machine can better do because it's not so prone to error. Another thing ... please explain how you can "test" a circuit of which you have only one, and what criteria you'd apply to a pass. Do you write test spec's before you design your work product? Most of the time, I decide what the goal is before I start on something. Then I devise a means for testing whether I'm there yet. After that, I start down the path. Dick From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 09:00:23 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Emulex MD21 In-Reply-To: <001001c2c3fc$262db5e0$abb6fea9@mob0> Message-ID: <3CBD8E07.8948.385475A@localhost> Rats, I wanted to use an Emulex MD21 from a Sun external SXSI box to hook my PDP11s Fuji M2246E ESDI drive (that connects to the QBUS via an Emulex QD21) upto a PC to do an image dump. The MD21 works OK with a Sun drive (a Micropolis model 1558) & the PC can verify each block on that, but with the Fuji M2246E hooked up, I get "unexpected SCSI command failure" from the Adaptec AHA1540CF BIOS when trying to verify the disk - host adapter status : 00h - no host adaptor error target status : 02h - check condition sense key : 02h - not ready +sense code : : 22h +sense code qualifier : 00h mean anything to anyone? The Fuji 2246E is working happily in the PDP11/83 so I don't believe the drive is faulty (yet!) I noticed the MS21 announce itself to the SCSI controller as an "Emulex MD21/S2". I wonder if there is specific Sun firmware in it to talk to only Sun approved ESDI drives?... greg From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Apr 17 08:57:46 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Message-ID: Maybe just a matter of terms, but you want a foam that will compress some, but will not _permanently deform_. Some spray foams will compress, but will not rebound, leaving lots of room for parts to rattle around in. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:29 AM To: Chad Fernandez Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's Actually, you want noncompressible foam so that it doesn't get compressed, making empty space into which your equipment can fall. The main reason why newspaper is a bad packing material. You want something that will absorb shock *without* compressing. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 09:19:08 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784434@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > [xdmcp] > Enable=1 Did that -- no dice. I haven't gotten much further. I hear that you can put a Port=177 (is that the number?) in there to make sure it uses the right port, and I haven't done that yet. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 09:26:29 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: OT email response format (was Re: TTL computing) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784435@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > they really hate for people to put any software on their system > > (typical windows-using mindset, but let's not get into that :), > Umm, I had the misfortune to run a Windows9x network for a couple of > years. 30+ machines and 50+ belligerently clueless > archeologist users. > If I could have stopped those idiots from installing *every* browser > plugin that came along and $3 cut-out software, I'd have had half the > repairs to do. > That _is_ a Windows-admin mindset, borne of much painful experience. I was wondering whether I would get this reply, and I have just one thing to say to it: You're absolutely right. I wouldn't trust people to *breathe* on a windows machine, personally, because windows can't handle it. It was the "windows using" part that I really dislike. The mindset is just a symptom. ;) Now if you'd like to talk about people who think that this is a natural way for a computer to behave, that's something else entirely. Ok, that was at least two things, I guess... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 17 09:38:43 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 Message-ID: >The VCF is auctioning off another Apple-1 computer. I assume when the auction has concluded, you'll relay what it sold for. Think I can get it for 25 bucks? I'll also cover shipping :-D -chris From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 09:35:34 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784437@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Look for a pot marked 'screen' or 'g2' or something like > that. It's often > on the flyback transformer in small monitors, could be elsewhere on > larger/high end ones. For the record, it's "white level" on my monitor. :) It's also very hard to get at without a pot tweaker (have to get some of those one day...) > Turning this up might help. The cure might not be permanent > (in fact it > might casuse the CRT to fail sooner), but it's worth a try. We'll see -- it's ok for now. > Do take care when working inside a monitor. There are some nasty high > voltages in there. Although IMHO the CRT electrode voltages are less > likely to kill you than mains (simply because the CRT > electrode supplies > can't source much current), a shock from one of them can be > nasty, and > might cause you to jerk back and cut yourself, or break the CRT, or... Indeed. I know, but thanks for the warning anyway. FWIW, the Megapixel monitors are completely shielded even once you open the plastic. There's a cutout in the shielding for each pot, and looking in with a flashlight, I can't see much of a way to contact anything except the pots. In other words, this is probably pretty safe on one of these. > If you've not been inside a monitor or TV before, then there's a > reasonable set of safety precautions in the sci.electronics.repair FAQ I might look at that anyway. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 17 09:38:29 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <1019049339.2560.91.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: On 17 Apr 2002, Alex White wrote: > > > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! > > Hmm, what about the reference design that DEC did for a Set Top Box? > Nickname "shark", it had a StrongARM, Compactflash and PCMCIA, network, > serial, RF out etc etc, all in a package about 5" square and 1" high. I wouldn't call them "unique". The Shark (or Digital DNARD) was DEC's evaluation board for the StrongARM when it first came out. They're around, if you look hard enough. Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 09:44:51 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: OT Women & computers (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784438@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] > Woman: Don't give me that crap! Women don't know anything about > computers! > This sort of thing happened almost every day. I don't blame > Deb at all for > leaving the industry. Of course, we're in Florida, so you > have to expect > some redneck attitudes, but from a *woman*?? Well, I guess the whole point of this is that women in general have every bit of ability that men in general have. I suppose that includes the "ability" to be stupid. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 09:46:35 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: OT Letting it go (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784439@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] > That's because we want to be *right.* It took me a long time > to learn that > I'd rather be happy than right. I'd rather be corrected than right. ;) No matter how much it bruises the ego, it generally saves lots of time and energy later. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 09:51:00 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Emulex MD21 Message-ID: <000701c1e61f$4a708fb0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Rats, I wanted to use an Emulex MD21 from a Sun external SXSI box to hook my > PDP11s Fuji M2246E ESDI drive (that connects to the QBUS via an Emulex QD21) > upto a PC to do an image dump. > > The MD21 works OK with a Sun drive (a Micropolis model 1558) & the PC can > verify each block on that, but with the Fuji M2246E hooked up, I get > "unexpected SCSI command failure" from the Adaptec AHA1540CF BIOS when trying > to verify the disk - > host adapter status : 00h - no host adaptor error > target status : 02h - check condition > sense key : 02h - not ready > +sense code : : 22h > +sense code qualifier : 00h > > mean anything to anyone? The Fuji 2246E is working happily in the PDP11/83 so > I don't believe the drive is faulty (yet!) > > I noticed the MS21 announce itself to the SCSI controller as an "Emulex > MD21/S2". I wonder if there is specific Sun firmware in it to talk to > only Sun approved ESDI drives?... Hmmm this sounds a little familiar, I've got a Micropolis drive at home that's got an Emulex rider board, it may be the same setup, although from a Prime, not a Sun... I'll try to go home at lunch and check... -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 17 09:53:47 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac References: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> <1019049339.2560.91.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <3CBD8C7B.609D1AEB@jetnet.ab.ca> Alex White wrote: > My computer's heavier than yours. new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 09:57:51 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: OT Letting it go (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) In-Reply-To: RE: OT Letting it go (was Re: The CommodoreOne is near!) (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784439@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15549.36207.863756.739857@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 17, Christopher Smith wrote: > > That's because we want to be *right.* It took me a long time > > to learn that > > I'd rather be happy than right. > > I'd rather be corrected than right. ;) No matter how much it > bruises the ego, it generally saves lots of time and energy > later. And you can learn something in the process! -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 17 09:57:41 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: The Apple I on zdnn... Message-ID: <200204171457.KAA27392@wordstock.com> News about the Apple I auction has appeared on zdnn @ http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-884678.html But they don't give a link to the auction site and they don't even mention Sellams' name! But at least it's getting *some* publicity... :) Cheers, Bryan From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 09:56:47 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: NeXTStation: How to fix NetInfo Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178443A@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Ok, R. -- chime in here any time ;) Now that I can see the NeXTStation's display better, I've booted it again, and changed the local password with 'passwd'. That got me in again. It seems that some netinfo stuff is dying on bootup. Lots of the NeXTAdmin apps will complain about not being able to contact the NetInfo server and die. The NetInfo server, as far as I can tell is nibindd, is that right? What is lookupd? It starts right after it, and seems to possibly have something to do with NetInfo too, but I can't tell what. Anyway, lookupd likes to exit without doing much, and nibindd seems to be dumping core, which I assume isn't good at all ;) ... so how does one go about straightening this mess out? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 02:31:44 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Unix PC in Pittsburg, PA Message-ID: Nathan would like to find a nice retirement home for his AT&T Unix PC. He's in Pittsburg, PA. Please contact him directly. Reply-to: Nathan.Thompson@respironics.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:01:44 -0400 From: "Thompson, Nathan" Subject: inquiry I'm looking for a good home for my AT&T 7300 Unix PC. Kinda sorry to see it go, but the wife seems adamant. Let me know if this is an acceptable donation. -Nathan -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 17 10:17:25 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <006a01c1e616$d64e28c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020417101622.03c8c8d8@pc> At 01:34 AM 4/17/2002 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >[~120 requoted lines removed, ~30 lines comments removed] Let me guess - you're going overboard with excess quoting just to keep the flame war going? - John From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 02:35:34 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: <02Apr16.124014edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > If FedEx dropped their price a little I think more people > would use them vice UPS. Thankfully the SGI Indigo2 and 19" monitor Actually, I find Fedex Ground to generally be cheaper than UPS, but only if you drop off the packages at the shipping office for low volume, or if you do a high volume of shipping. Fedex will charge a weekly pickup fee if you call them out for a pickup. They don't seem to have it all together yet I was charged this fee by them even when I only drop off packages at their center. They also have't sent me any invoices for the past couple months even though I called them to notify them of my address change and requested all back invoices. At any rate, I find the service to be good and cheaper than UPS Ground for my purposes. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 02:50:35 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416175515.03b78510@enigma> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dan Veeneman wrote: > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! > > http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html Well, these things are unique and varied. I don't have one as described in the article, but I do have this one (profiled on Tom Owad's most excellent website): http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/systematics/index.html Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 10:51:00 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784434@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > [xdmcp] > > Enable=1 > > Did that -- no dice. I haven't gotten much further. I hear that > you can put a Port=177 (is that the number?) in there to make sure > it uses the right port, and I haven't done that yet. Silly question, but did you restart gdm? Every ime I've set up remote desktops on a GDM server, It Just Worked. Doc From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 02:55:37 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! > > > > http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html > > It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no > documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced > Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system > was actually made by Apple and not some third-party. I actually doubt it was made by Apple. While I haven't met Bruce personally but do know him, I think his comments may have either been misreported by Wired (very common) or he is mistaken in believing the computer was made by Apple. The one I've got as well as the other one on Tom's pages were modified by a third party company. Also, it kind of sucks that it has no motherboard. That sort of limits it's cool factor. The one I've got is complete, and works. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 03:00:42 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <021001c1e59c$14a374c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Michael Nadeau wrote: > I saw that, and I have my doubts about its "uniqueness." Tempest versions of > many systems have been built over the years and stay off the public's radar. > Sometimes, a third party will contract with a manufacturer to build and sell > Tempest versions of their computers that look more or less like the > originals. (GRiD did this for years.) And if this really was such a top > secret system, why did it end up at a salvage dealer? > > Can anyone on this list shed more light on this Mac? I've been planning to make a visit to the DigiBarn where this is being displayed. I'm also writing to Bruce to get more information. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Apr 17 11:02:41 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... Message-ID: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, gee, in my zealous bargain-hunts I keep being burned. Two bad CPUs before and now I thought I had a bargain with two UDA50 sets another KFQSA and a DEUNA set. However, as I unpacked yesterday, I noticed that the KFQSA was missing one socketed chip (approx 40 pin DIL, black right in the middle.) Also, one of the UDA50 boards the M7.65 I think is missing a whole set of 10 or so socketed chips all of equal size on the side. My hope is that those are ROMs that may not be needed unless booting from KFQSA or DEUNA is required, but that's a very remote hope. Can they be replaced? Probably makes no sense. grrr, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 03:03:44 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204170301.g3H310P20744@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I saw that, and I have my doubts about its "uniqueness." Tempest versions of > > I'm pretty sure it's not unique, and wouldn't be surprised if Sellam has > one. These things are extremely rare in general, at least out in the wild. This is only the third to surface, and of all three now documented on the web (or at least known to be) they are all completely different. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 03:07:19 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > >The VCF is auctioning off another Apple-1 computer. > > I assume when the auction has concluded, you'll relay what it sold for. > > Think I can get it for 25 bucks? I'll also cover shipping :-D Unfortunately, the starting bid will most likely be $500 ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 03:09:39 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: The Apple I on zdnn... In-Reply-To: <200204171457.KAA27392@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > News about the Apple I auction has appeared on zdnn @ > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-884678.html > > But they don't give a link to the auction site and they don't even mention > Sellams' name! > > But at least it's getting *some* publicity... :) Wow, I didn't even submit a press release to them. Someone over there is on top of things I guess. They do actually have a link to the auction site. It's linked from the text "coming up for auction this weekend" in the first paragraph, which I guess is not very intuitive if you don't have a browser that properly highlights the link. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 11:22:16 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Unix PC in Pittsburg, PA Message-ID: <000701c1e62c$0a8d0c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Nathan would like to find a nice retirement home for his AT&T Unix PC. > He's in Pittsburg, PA. Please contact him directly. > > Reply-to: Nathan.Thompson@respironics.com > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:01:44 -0400 > From: "Thompson, Nathan" > Subject: inquiry > > I'm looking for a good home for my AT&T 7300 Unix PC. Kinda sorry to see it > go, but the wife seems adamant. Let me know if this is an acceptable donation. Behold the SWMBO: the ClassicCmp subscriber's Best Friend. ;) From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 11:23:21 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178443D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Silly question, but did you restart gdm? > Every ime I've set up remote desktops on a GDM server, It > Just Worked. Yes, lots ;) Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 17 11:31:33 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 Message-ID: It's been spoken for a few times over. Now I wish I had a couple of them. -- Pat From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 17 11:45:23 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Basically, where are the good boatanchor related mailing lists and > resources at? I'm looking for resources on restoration and building home > brew tube based gear. The best baotamchors list is boatanchors@theporch.com. Very low noise, with basically all of the gurus of the BA crowd. The other boatanchors list is boatanchors@qth.net. Not nearly as good, but still worth it. Manauals for the National should be fairly easy to find. I actually had some for the 240 line just a few months ago, but I sold them off. But...all you need to know is "bama". Google for "NC-240CS manual" and you will see what I mean. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 17 11:45:56 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <200204171645.AA15575@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: More 11/750 PSU Qs > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 03:01:23 +0100 (BST) > In-Reply-To: <20020415200927.52402.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 15, 2 01:09:27 pm > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > > > NO!. SMPSUs do not like being run in parallel (unless designed to be > > > > > used like that). One PSU will end up attempting to supply all the > > > > > current and the other PSUs may not like having voltages applied to > > > > > their outputs. > > > > > > > > And once the first one drops dead, the next > > > > most "powerful" one repeats the process. > > > > Proof by "induction" left as an exercise :-) > > > > > > > *giggle* OK, ok, thought it was best to ask.... *laughs manically* > > > > Presumably, if one could a) tolerate the voltage drops and b) find massive > > diodes (many amps for the intended application in an 11/750), it could be > > done safely. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. > > Well, that would prevent one PSU from supplying a voltage to the outputs > of another (something that can really confuse the regulation circuitry!), > but it won't help with the current distribution problem. The PSU who's > output after the diode drop is the highest voltage will end up sourcing > all the current. Not what you really want. Aren't there some power supplies that can be run in constant-current or "current-limited" mode? I think I used to do that with a PDP8-E, when the power drain of the add-in boards exceeded the original 1/2 Amp per slot. A booster supply to provide more current. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 11:52:55 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CBD8C7B.609D1AEB@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > > My computer's heavier than yours. > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. My computer's slower than yours. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 11:59:39 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >The VCF is auctioning off another Apple-1 computer. > Think I can get it for 25 bucks? I'll also cover shipping :-D $27.50 From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 17 11:59:09 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178443D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > > Silly question, but did you restart gdm? > > Every ime I've set up remote desktops on a GDM server, It > > Just Worked. > > Yes, lots ;) You also need to add your connecting hosts to your /etc/X11/Xaccess (or is it /etc/X11/xdm/Xaccess ?) config file, eg: a single "*" on the command line will allow any host to connect. -- Pat (who's already gone through the grief of trying to get xdm/kdm working) From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 17 12:03:57 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Assorted goodies & TK Question Message-ID: <200204171703.AA15639@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:51:16 -0500 (EST) > From: > X-X-Sender: > To: > Subject: Re: Assorted goodies & TK Question > In-Reply-To: <200204160322.g3G3Mx621685@shell1.aracnet.com> > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > On Mon, 15 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > Also, how do I get the disk out of an RRD40 without a computer attached? > > > > Um, unless you've got the 'clear sleave', I don't think you're going to get > > the disk out without demolishing the drive! As long as that's the drive I'm > > thinking of it uses a funky 'pincer' holder for the CD, with a clear > > 'sleave' around it to make up the 'caddy'. You stick the caddy in the drive > > and pull the 'sleave' back out. To remove the CD, you stick the 'sleave' in > > and pull out the whole caddy. (hopefully that makes sense) > > How easy is it to take apart without killing the drive? Or can I make a > 'clear sleve' very easily out of a couple of pieces of plastic? > The peculiar caddy comes from Philips, and was also used in some videodisk players. My local Gateway Electronics store has a lot of junk related to the Philips players, including a bunch of caddies. Or at least they had them last time I was there, perhaps a month ago. Maybe there is some similar store near where you are. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Apr 17 12:24:47 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Heath Zenith in a Faraday cage, was Secret Mac Message-ID: <144.d092c5a.29ef09df@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/02 9:13:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > These things are extremely rare in general, at least out in the wild. > This is only the third to surface, and of all three now documented on the > web (or at least known to be) they are all completely different. > At one time I had a Heath Zenith Z150 PC mounted inside a Metal Faraday cage. Has anyone seen anything like this? I assumed it was for Tempest type protection but then it did come out of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. (no it didn't glow). Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/c380aa53/attachment.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 17 12:33:41 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467856@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > My computer's slower than yours. > My computer is uglier than yours... Oop, hey, wait a minute... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 17 12:24:32 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <200204171724.KAA25638@clulw009.amd.com> HI Tony Looking at ideas for a minimal computer, did you see: http://www.tu-harburg.de/~setb0209/cpu/ I've just subscribed again to the list so I'm not sure if this pointer has come up on this thread. Dwight PS Tony: I tried sending you a message directly but I'm not sure it made it, on another subject. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 17 12:26:53 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Unix PC in Pittsburg, PA In-Reply-To: <000701c1e62c$0a8d0c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 17, 02 12:22:16 pm Message-ID: <200204171726.NAA25701@wordstock.com> And thusly Douglas H. Quebbeman spake: > > > Nathan would like to find a nice retirement home for his AT&T Unix PC. > > He's in Pittsburg, PA. Please contact him directly. > > > > Reply-to: Nathan.Thompson@respironics.com > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:01:44 -0400 > > From: "Thompson, Nathan" > > Subject: inquiry > > > > I'm looking for a good home for my AT&T 7300 Unix PC. Kinda sorry to see it > > go, but the wife seems adamant. Let me know if this is an acceptable donation. > > Behold the SWMBO: the ClassicCmp subscriber's Best Friend. > > ;) > > What's a SWMBO? From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 17 12:39:29 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa Message-ID: <200204171739.AA15749@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:55:58 -0400 > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > Organization: Just Sufficient > X-Accept-Language: en > To: "William R. Buckley" , > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa > > Jerome Fine replies: > > It took a week of trying, but I have finally downloaded all three CD > images for RSX-11 and RT-11 from: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ > Note also that the file MD5SUMS seems to contain checksum > values, but I don't know how to use these values or produce them > myself to check if my files are correct. Can anyone help? There is a program "md5sum" that comes with GNU textutils. It will run on most Unix or Unix-like systems. I suspect that with a fair amount of effort it could be made to run on RT11, compiled with DECUS C, but I haven't really looked at that.. When you run mda5sum on a file it produces a 32-hex-digit "message digest". This should match the one that you downloaded from the original source. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 17 12:42:59 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <200204171742.KAA25645@clulw009.amd.com> >X-Server-Uuid: 1b77f47c-118c-11d5-bbc5-0002a5132c3d >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f >Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:45:56 -0700 >From: cdl@proxima.ucsd.edu >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: More 11/750 PSU Qs >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-WSS-ID: 10A36FAD144315-01-02 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> Subject: Re: More 11/750 PSU Qs >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 03:01:23 +0100 (BST) >> In-Reply-To: <20020415200927.52402.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 15, 2 01:09:27 pm >> Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >> > > > > NO!. SMPSUs do not like being run in parallel (unless designed to be >> > > > > used like that). One PSU will end up attempting to supply all the >> > > > > current and the other PSUs may not like having voltages applied to >> > > > > their outputs. >> > > > >> > > > And once the first one drops dead, the next >> > > > most "powerful" one repeats the process. >> > > > Proof by "induction" left as an exercise :-) >> > > > >> > > *giggle* OK, ok, thought it was best to ask.... *laughs manically* >> > >> > Presumably, if one could a) tolerate the voltage drops and b) find massive >> > diodes (many amps for the intended application in an 11/750), it could be >> > done safely. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. >> >> Well, that would prevent one PSU from supplying a voltage to the outputs >> of another (something that can really confuse the regulation circuitry!), >> but it won't help with the current distribution problem. The PSU who's >> output after the diode drop is the highest voltage will end up sourcing >> all the current. Not what you really want. > >Aren't there some power supplies that can be run in constant-current >or "current-limited" mode? I think I used to do that with a PDP8-E, >when the power drain of the add-in boards exceeded the original 1/2 Amp >per slot. A booster supply to provide more current. > > carl >-- > carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego > clowenstein@ucsd.edu > Hi Carl Sure, I've use supplies that are designed to be used in parallel that would share current rather than having each supply run in current limit mode. They were set up in such a way that the voltage feedback was controlled by a master supply. The slave supplies were set to track to the voltage on the current sense resistor of the master supply only they took their feedback form input of their own current sense resistor. Only the master supply had voltage feedback from the load. Most supplies that have a high side current sense resistor can be modified to run this way. When the masters current went up, it would create a higher voltage on the sense resistor. This would cause the slaves to increase their voltage on their sense resitor, evening out the shared current. Dwight From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 12:42:02 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: Champaign trip (aka DEC Galore) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784442@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > You also need to add your connecting hosts to your /etc/X11/Xaccess > (or is it /etc/X11/xdm/Xaccess ?) config file, eg: a single "*" on the > command line will allow any host to connect. Did that too, but I will recheck it. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 17 12:59:54 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <200204171759.KAA25658@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > >> > My computer's heavier than yours. >> new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. >My computer's slower than yours. > > Mine's a 4004. What do you use that is slower ( just because it runs windows doesn't mean the processor is slower). Dwight From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 17 13:01:43 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <20020417180143.17028.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> I am evaluating building a replacement display for the AIM-65 that does not use the DL1416. I have several modern options - a 20x1 LCD is cheap enough, as are more modern 4-char ASCII LED displays. The interface is somewhat trivial - the connector on the AIM-65 mainboard has enough signals to talk to a 6520 PIA (since that's what is on the normal display board to begin with). There are couple of angles to pursue... I have successfully tested a Motorola 6821 in place of the Rockwell 6520 in a real AIM-65. Since I have a few 6520s and many 6821s, that's a win. Either way, it's trivial to hang a display off of the 6502 bus without a PIA in the way. I'm curious if anyone knows why they bothered to put a 6520 on the display card? Did they want to keep the bus loading to a small, known quantity? If so, then I'll consider that any ASCII LED solution I come up with needs to have appropriate signal conditioning. I can't see how a modern LCD display would load the bus any worse than a 6520, so it might be worth the direct approach. So... the hardware is no big deal. The software, though, could be lots more work. I have real ROMs and ROM images. Are there any sources to the AIM-65 ROMs that are in a state to be compiled back into working, matching binaries? If I'm going to change the nature of the display, the code will have to follow. If the code is changing, then there's no reason I can't experiment with a multi-line display - I have a 20x4 VCD and a 20X4 LCD display already in hand. I think I can locate a 40x2 in my junk box, but at first, I'll probably ignore the right half and if I used it, treat it like a 20x2. Is there anyone out there who has done any real AIM-65 hacking? I can start from zero if I have to, but if there's any preexisting work out there, I'd like to see about starting ahead of zero. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 17 13:03:33 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Unix PC in Pittsburg, PA In-Reply-To: <200204171726.NAA25701@wordstock.com> References: <000701c1e62c$0a8d0c90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020417140333.0166cf58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: [snip] >What's a SWMBO? Thanks to google... "She Who Must Be Obeyed" Thank %deity% I don't have one of those... (and yes, I'm married) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Apr 17 13:03:49 2002 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:37 2005 Subject: TTL computing Message-ID: <01KGO3YIGP4I9S43BN@cc.usu.edu> Dwight Elvey said: > Looking at ideas for a minimal computer, did you see: > > http://www.tu-harburg.de/~setb0209/cpu/ http://eagle.eku.edu/faculty/styer/oisc.html has a description of a bunch of single-instruction machines. Take a look at the ones which require only byte moves and a memory-mapped program counter. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 17 12:46:43 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac References: Message-ID: <3CBDB503.FD307756@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > My computer's slower than yours. My computers got TUBE's. :) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 13:06:48 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Unix PC in Pittsburg, PA In-Reply-To: <200204171726.NAA25701@wordstock.com> Message-ID: > > What's a SWMBO? > > She Who Must Be Obeyed. g. From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 13:06:00 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <001d01c1e63a$8806e750$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > My computer's slower than yours. My computer dims the neighborhood's lights when I turn it on... My computer has fewer transistors than yours... My computer has no transistors, just tubes... My computer's valves burn out faster than yours... My computer's got more gears than yours... From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 17 13:15:21 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <200204171815.AA15906@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: Dave McGuire > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:20:03 -0400 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > On April 16, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Next, can anyone tell me why, after booting into single user mode, > > and changing the root password with 'nu -m' I might still be > > refused a login next time I boot? > ... > > A) It's getting another password from somewhere and overwriting the > > one I put in? (I hope not.. :) > > It's been many years since I ran NeXTSTEP, so this might be > useless...but does "nu" modify the netinfo database? If not, well, > that might be the problem. The root password must be modified in such a way that Netinfo knows about it. One recipe for this is in the NeXT SysAdmin manual under the subject "Lost Root Password". The documentation is also online in /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextAdmin/15_Trouble.rtfd. The easiest way I know of to change the root password on NeXTstep is to boot as single-user. then: # cd /tmp # nidump passwd . > tempfile # vi tempfile # here delete the password field from the # between the pair of : first line (root) entry # niload passwd . < tempfile # halt Boot again, not as single-user. Root now has a null password. If you are an awk expert, you could combine the steps and not have the intermediate file. But it took me a few tries to get it right just now. So it's easier to use an editor. carl -- If you are an awk specialist, you could From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 17 13:18:11 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... In-Reply-To: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20020417181811.15848.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > gee, in my zealous bargain-hunts I keep being burned. Ow. Sorry to hear that. > I noticed that the KFQSA was missing one socketed > chip (approx 40 pin DIL, black right in the middle.) A microcontroller? A T-11? It's too new for my stuff; never even seen one. Unfortunately, the picture in the Visual Field Guide at http://vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/m7769b1.jpg is none too legible. > Also, one > of the UDA50 boards the M7.65 I think is missing a whole set > of 10 or so socketed chips all of equal size on the side. If I had a UDA50 at home, I'd be glad see what's socketed on it, but I cannot. Looking a a KDA50, I see lots of AMD PROMs that resemble what you are describing. Those may be similar in function, if not in content - http://vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/m7164.jpg > My hope is that those are ROMs that may not be needed unless > booting from KFQSA or DEUNA is required, but that's a very > remote hope. Not that many ROMs. They are likely to be ROMs for the state machine onboard the controller. Boot ROMs for the VAX live in places other than on the peripherals, and tend to be small, both in quantity and capacity. You are probably hosed. :-( > Can they be replaced? Probably makes no sense. Yes, but finding blanks will be more hassle than finding a dead board and scavenging them (possibly what has already happened to you). It's worth trying to see if they work, but with missing bits, they may have been parted out for a reason. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 13:20:04 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: The Collector's Best Friend Message-ID: <002d01c1e63c$7f6b01b0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > And thusly Douglas H. Quebbeman spake: > > > > > Nathan would like to find a nice retirement home for his AT&T Unix PC. > > > He's in Pittsburg, PA. Please contact him directly. > > > > > > : I'm looking for a good home for my AT&T 7300 Unix PC. Kinda sorry to see it > > > : go, but the wife seems adamant. Let me know if this is an acceptable donation. > > > > Behold the SWMBO: the ClassicCmp subscriber's Best Friend. > > > > ;) > > What's a SWMBO? Oh, 30 to 40 years of indentured servitude, if you're lucky... (SWMBO == She Who Must Be Obeyed... Wife for most of you, mother for a few) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 17 13:20:49 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: <3CBD8C7B.609D1AEB@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CBDD921.4978.18DA1675@localhost> > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > My computer's slower than yours. My computer produces more humming noise than yours. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 13:28:34 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Seeking Interest in Group Purchase, Avery Magtape Labels Message-ID: <003501c1e63d$af6219c0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Hey- Avery still lists labels for 9-track tapes, assuming that's what these are: Tape Reel High Speed Computer Labels 3-7/8" x 1-13/16", White, Dot Matrix, Removable, 5000 labels per box 04052 5000 Labels per Box $139.15 If there are just ten people on the list who'd have use for 500 labels, it's close to fifteen bucks per person. OTOH, is anyone sitting on a stash of them? I found a sheet with precisely three labels, and I've quite a few more tapes than that... -dq From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 17 13:30:29 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... Message-ID: <200204171830.AA15979@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: Christopher Smith > To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" > Subject: Explain the NeXTStation "dim monitor" problem, etc... > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:59:52 -0500 > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Ok, I've got my NeXTStation working, but I'm in need of some > advice. > > First off -- can somebody explain the common problem with the > monitors going dim? Can I fix it? (How?) Is there an internal > "intensity" pot that I can adjust to get more life out of the > monitor? It is just bright enough not to strain your eyes at > the highest brightness setting right now... (It's B&W) NeXT bought the monitors from Sony. Sony bought CRTs that had a limited cathode life. The cathodes have mostly expired by now. > Next, can anyone tell me why, after booting into single user mode, > and changing the root password with 'nu -m' I might still be > refused a login next time I boot? > > I was able to get in once yesterday, after which I tried this morning > and was refused. I booted to single user mode again -- looked at the > current password hash, changed the password again (the hash turned out > different, but I'm not sure that means much really, and could just be > different "salt"), booted again normally, and still couldn't get in. The password file "/etc/passwd" is not used any time that NetInfo is running, which is nearly all the time. A few minutes ago I posted a method to modify the NetInfo view of the root password, using nidump and niload. > > A) It's getting another password from somewhere and overwriting the > one I put in? (I hope not.. :) Yes. The password file that is actually used is stored inside the NetInfo database. > > B) Something's not starting right during boot right now, and it needs > this to log people into the system? (More likely, I think...) > > It does still want to connect to the network, and complains about not > being able to talk to several machines when it boots. I'm not sure > whether this would make a difference, or how I would convince it not to > do this. :) Any suggestions? More NetInfo stuff. You need to reset the database so that the computer does not know about its previous life. Look on the net for the NeXT FAQ. It will help a lot. First place I found using a Google search is < http://www.non.com/news.answers/NeXT-FAQ.html > carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 17 13:46:53 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020416175515.03b78510@enigma> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020417144653.00838100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:50 AM 4/17/02 +0000, you wrote: >On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Dan Veeneman wrote: > >> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! >> >> http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html > >Well, these things are unique Bull Shit! There's nothing unique about Tempest MACs! I've seen dozens if not hundreds of the things! Anyody can pull the guts out of a standard MAC and put them into a shielded case. Joe From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 17 13:52:38 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <001801c1e641$0be67580$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Dwight K. Elvey > >Mine's a 4004. What do you use that is slower ( just because >it runs windows doesn't mean the processor is slower). >Dwight in the slowness derby... NEC upD7806, clocked at 32.768khz. It may be slow but it runs Basic and only uses 30uA. Second place is my PDT11/130... file access measured in 10s of seconds due to TU-58. The ugly award still goes to any PC running M$pooge winders. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 17 13:56:01 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... Message-ID: <002301c1e641$84ffbda0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Ethan Dicks >> I noticed that the KFQSA was missing one socketed >> chip (approx 40 pin DIL, black right in the middle.) > >A microcontroller? A T-11? It's too new for my stuff; never even >seen one. Unfortunately, the picture in the Visual Field Guide at >http://vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/m7769b1.jpg is none too legible. Sheesh T-11 chip is early 80s. Another part number for the T-11 is D320 (it's a memory test and I'm not home). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 17 14:09:53 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <000a01c1e643$75246000$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > >My computer dims the neighborhood's lights when I turn it on... > >My computer has fewer transistors than yours... > >My computer has no transistors, just tubes... > >My computer's valves burn out faster than yours... > >My computer's got more gears than yours... Then there is... My computers daddy is bigger than yours. Allison From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Apr 17 14:09:16 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 Message-ID: <155.c790e61.29ef225c@aol.com> I hesitate to mention this even if it is well over 10 years old. I have a copy of Heath Zenith Windows that I posted on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017754574 I have been corresponding with collectors as how to verify this is actually MS Windows 1.0. There are no version numbers at all on the disks, box, manual and envelopes. The Heath Zenith Model Number of the Software package is MS-5063-30. Can anyone verify what this model number represents? Since it comes on 5 5 1/4" 48tpi floppy disks and can be installed in a HZ 8088 PC I feel certain it is original. The manual indicates it can be installed on a two floppy machine besides on a hard drive. Any information would be helpful. Please, no flames... Paxton Astoria, OR From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 17 14:12:18 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020417191219.70989.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > My computer's slower than yours. In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former boss of mine would call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights... cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. If you want to include blinkenlights, throw lumens in there somewhere. To throw out the first number, since I have the handbook right here, I assess the PDP-8/e at 98889 cuftBTUlbA/KBMIPS*. I'm sure something like an iPAQ would have an incredibly small number. If I had to guess, I'd put the Straight-8 at about 4x the volume of the -8/e, 3x the power and heat and 1/8th the memory, so roughly 2.85E+07 cuftBUTlbA/KBMIPS. *Supporting data from pages 8-2, 8-16, et al. of the "small computer handbook, 1973"... o 24" x 10.5" x 19" = 4788 cu in = 2.77 cu ft o 1700 BTU/Hr o 90 lbs o 5.6A (max - so assume full boat of core) 2.77 x 1700 x 90 x 5.6 = 2373336 o 32KW = 48KB (12 bits/word) o 0.5 MIPS (re: http://www.pdp8.net/) 48 x .5 = 24 2373336 / 24 = 98889 Any other estimates? Should we consider BTU/Hr _or_ Amps (since more power means more heat) or leave both values in the metric? Disks could be similarly rated, leaving out MIPS. The RA81 would have a large number, probably larger than most things made since 1984 (the RP03 would score well, too). What's _your_ "best" machine? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 14:15:32 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > >The VCF is auctioning off another Apple-1 computer. > > Think I can get it for 25 bucks? I'll also cover shipping :-D > > $27.50 $35.00 ;P Are the pcboard layouts and print sets for the Apple I available somewhere? I might like to build a replica someday. -Toth From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 17 14:16:09 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CBDD921.4978.18DA1675@localhost> References: <3CBD8C7B.609D1AEB@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020417151609.0166cf58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words: >> > > My computer's heavier than yours. >> > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. >> My computer's slower than yours. > >My computer produces more humming noise than yours. Howaboutz: My computer's *really* hardCORE! ;-) [[ frankly, core memory for me is just a passing oddity, tho - I prefer to stick to TTL & microprocessors, myself... ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 17 14:17:14 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CBDD921.4978.18DA1675@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > > My computer's slower than yours. > > My computer produces more humming noise than yours. > My computer has bigger relays than yours. The company that made my computer has been out of business longer than yours. My computer requires more wire-swapping than yours to reprogram. -- Pat From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 14:24:28 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > It's been spoken for a few times over. Now I wish I had a couple of > them. It's a nice little machine that looks like it was produced in low volumes. It could be a very very nice homebrew or even a kit, but it's hard to tell without looking at the boards and such. Based just on appearances and the particular power supply it uses, I guessed it was made around 1978-1983. Without looking at it closer, I'd also have to guess that it was made for a lab or some other small business application instead of the hobbyist or home market. I hope whoever ends up with it takes care of it and realizes just what a treasure this machine really is. -Toth From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 14:25:54 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CBDB503.FD307756@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > My computer's slower than yours. > My computers got TUBE's. :) > Mine has *beads*. :P g. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 14:31:12 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > > Basically, where are the good boatanchor related mailing lists and > > resources at? I'm looking for resources on restoration and building home > > brew tube based gear. > > The best baotamchors list is boatanchors@theporch.com. Very low noise, > with basically all of the gurus of the BA crowd. Isn't that one fee based now though? > The other boatanchors list is boatanchors@qth.net. Not nearly as good, > but still worth it. Does it tolerate and encourage homebrew gear? > Manauals for the National should be fairly easy to find. I actually > had some for the 240 line just a few months ago, but I sold them off. I wasn't able to find out all that much about the 'CS', other than it seems to have been made between 1945 and 1946. (Maybe this thing is close to being on topic, since it is certainly older than the Simon computer ;) > But...all you need to know is "bama". Google for "NC-240CS manual" and > you will see what I mean. I found scans of the manual online (and archived a copy of them), but I'd like to find an original print manual somewhere to replace the one that was lost. Print manuals are also easier to read than a 300dpi scan, even If I print out a copy. Guess I'll have another argument with Google and see what turns up :) -Toth From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 17 14:34:46 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: UPS was Re: Need Burroughs Tape Spec's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020417193446.62843.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > I once had shipped by UPS a 27" Trinitron monitor. It was heavy. It was > double boxed, with 8" of noncompressible spray-foam between the two > boxes, and another 3" of rigid foam between the inner box and the monitor > itself. The monitor was shattered. They must have dropped it from > several feet up in the air. They probably did. I was told by a friend who worked at the local depot that they have a conveyer 4' off the ground that moves boxes at 30mph. Stuff falls off every day. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From philip at awale.qc.ca Wed Apr 17 14:36:28 2002 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 Unix PC in Pittsburg, PA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17-Apr-2002 Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Nathan would like to find a nice retirement home for his AT&T Unix PC. > He's in Pittsburg, PA. Please contact him directly. I have media (diskettes) and a goodly pile of docs for these, if this comes without. Caveat : I won't have easy access to this until mid-june. -Philip From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 14:46:35 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" Message-ID: <000701c1e648$952db900$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I hesitate to mention this even if it is well over 10 years old. > > I have a copy of Heath Zenith Windows that I posted on eBay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017754574 > > I have been corresponding with collectors as how to verify this is actually > MS Windows 1.0. There are no version numbers at all on the disks, box, manual > and envelopes. > > The Heath Zenith Model Number of the Software package is MS-5063-30. Can > anyone verify what this model number represents? Zenith changed their software packaging a few times over the years. This is the same packaging as what I have on OS/2 1.0, and MS-DOS 3.3+. Consequently, looking back at the calendar, I think that it's far more likely that this is Windows 2.0 or 2.1. Sorry... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 17 14:44:56 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784445@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words: > >> > > My computer's heavier than yours. > >> > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > >> My computer's slower than yours. > >My computer produces more humming noise than yours. > My computer's *really* hardCORE! ;-) My computer has mercury-filled glass tubes. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 17 14:48:19 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac) Message-ID: <000f01c1e648$d32314d0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > > > >My computer dims the neighborhood's lights when I turn it on... > > > >My computer has fewer transistors than yours... > > > >My computer has no transistors, just tubes... > > > >My computer's valves burn out faster than yours... > > > >My computer's got more gears than yours... > > > Then there is... > > My computers daddy is bigger than yours. Hmmm... Gordon Bell is *not* a small man, but "big daddy"? ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 17 14:51:19 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Seeking Interest in Group Purchase, Avery Magtape Labels Message-ID: <200204171951.AA16375@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" > To: "ClassicCmp List" > Subject: Seeking Interest in Group Purchase, Avery Magtape Labels > Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:28:34 -0400 > > Hey- > > Avery still lists labels for 9-track tapes, assuming that's > what these are: > > Tape Reel High Speed Computer Labels > 3-7/8" x 1-13/16", White, Dot Matrix, > Removable, 5000 labels per box > 04052 5000 Labels per Box $139.15 > > If there are just ten people on the list who'd have use > for 500 labels, it's close to fifteen bucks per person. > > OTOH, is anyone sitting on a stash of them? I found a > sheet with precisely three labels, and I've quite a > few more tapes than that... Check to see if the adhesive still sticks to anything. My long-term experience with tape-reel labels is that the "permanent' adhesive lets go after 10 years or so, leaving me with a rack of unlabeled tapes and a bunch of labels on the floor. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 17 14:54:08 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Isn't that one fee based now though? Yes, but it is worth it. A dollar a month. > Does it tolerate and encourage homebrew gear? If it has tubes, sure. The "Glowbugs" list might be better for that, as it is intended for guys that like tube based QRP (very low power) gear. > I wasn't able to find out all that much about the 'CS', other than it > seems to have been made between 1945 and 1946. (Maybe this thing is close > to being on topic, since it is certainly older than the Simon computer ;) Pretty standard National design, I think. > I found scans of the manual online (and archived a copy of them), but I'd > like to find an original print manual somewhere to replace the one that > was lost. Print manuals are also easier to read than a 300dpi scan, even > If I print out a copy. Guess I'll have another argument with Google and > see what turns up :) Ebay is a better place to look. If you need help, contact me off list - or better yet, subscribe to one of the BA lists (on topic and all of that). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 17 15:15:26 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Heath Zenith in a Faraday cage, was Secret Mac Message-ID: <200204172015.NAA25702@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Innfogra@aol.com > >In a message dated 4/17/02 9:13:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com >writes: > > >> These things are extremely rare in general, at least out in the wild. >> This is only the third to surface, and of all three now documented on the >> web (or at least known to be) they are all completely different. >> > >At one time I had a Heath Zenith Z150 PC mounted inside a Metal Faraday cage. >Has anyone seen anything like this? I assumed it was for Tempest type >protection but then it did come out of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. (no >it didn't glow). > >Paxton >Astoria, OR > Hi When at Intel, we had to shield our Series II machine for a different reason. The early ones would reset when zapped by someone walking across the carpet and touching the key board. Energy can go in various directions. It could have been for security but was just as likely to keep from interfering with the various measurement equipment. Dwight From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Apr 17 15:18:58 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020417191219.70989.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020417191219.70989.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020417201858.GB736087@uiuc.edu> Ethan Dicks said: > --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > > My computer's slower than yours. > > In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former boss of mine would > call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights... > > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. > > If you want to include blinkenlights, throw lumens in there somewhere. > > To throw out the first number, since I have the handbook right here, > I assess the PDP-8/e at 98889 cuftBTUlbA/KBMIPS*. I'm sure something > like an iPAQ would have an incredibly small number. If I had to guess, This got me to thinking, since I have an iPaq. It's approximate cuftBUTlbA/KBMIPS rating is: 5.651403e-08. [1] yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the "classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic computer in existence ;) [1] numbers involved: cubic footage: 0.75. I think this might be high since I didn't actually measure it. BTU/hr: 1. I have no idea how much heat this thing outputs, but it does get kind of warm, so 1 seems fair. it stays much cooler with the backlight off, thought, maybe that should be figured in... lb: 0.25; I think it weighs about 4oz. A: 2, as this is what it's wall wart draws when it's plugged in. However, one could make an argument that that's what is used to charge the battery and the actual power demands of the device are lower. I am not making such an argument because this was easy. KB: 49152KB = 48MB -> 32MB RAM + 16MB flash. MIPS: 135 - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 17 15:24:46 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 17, 2002 03:46:35 PM Message-ID: <200204172024.g3HKOk527440@shell1.aracnet.com> > Zenith changed their software packaging a few times over the years. > > This is the same packaging as what I have on OS/2 1.0, and MS-DOS > 3.3+. > > Consequently, looking back at the calendar, I think that > it's far more likely that this is Windows 2.0 or 2.1. It's not much help, but the first Z248 that we recieved had MS-DOS 3.x and Windows 1.0x floppies included with it. I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! On a vaguely interesting Windows 1.x note, the PC version of the game "Balance of Power" included just enough of Windows 1.x to run the game! It was the only use I ever had for Windows 1.x :^) Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 17 15:27:55 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <000e01c1e64e$64734cc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Ethan Dicks > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. There is a redundant term. >Any other estimates? Should we consider BTU/Hr _or_ Amps (since more >power means more heat) or leave both values in the metric? Naw, thats not right either. It should be Amps*line_volts (or Vars). Then again the vertical stacking distance is another metric. After all Who knows how high that sh!t can pile! Allison From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Apr 17 15:18:50 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <200204172018.QAA5901971@shell.TheWorld.com> > > > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > > new sig: My computer's got more blinking lights than yours. > > My computer's slower than yours. > My computer is uglier than yours... My computer draws more power than yours... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Apr 17 15:44:14 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" Message-ID: <15b.c818cb0.29ef389e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/02 1:30:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > Consequently, looking back at the calendar, I think that > > it's far more likely that this is Windows 2.0 or 2.1. > > It's not much help, but the first Z248 that we received had MS-DOS 3.x and > Windows 1.0x floppies included with it. > > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > found a shrink-wrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! > One of the collectors I have been corresponding with has a copy of Heath Zenith Windows 2.1 and it is marked on the spine of the Box. Mine has no version at all. Mine also runs on MS-DOS 2.0. There is another addendum page that indicates how to configure windows with MS-DOS 3.1. There is no mention of MS-DOS 3.3 at all. I was hoping someone had a Heath Zenith catalog from that era, 1985-1986. Thanks for the help. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/5c63842e/attachment.html From David.Woyciesjes at Yale.edu Wed Apr 17 15:43:02 2002 From: David.Woyciesjes at Yale.edu (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e648$d32314d0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, April 17, 2002, at 03:48 PM, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >> From: Douglas H. Quebbeman >>> >>> My computer dims the neighborhood's lights when I turn it on... >>> >>> My computer has fewer transistors than yours... >>> >>> My computer has no transistors, just tubes... >>> >>> My computer's valves burn out faster than yours... >>> >>> My computer's got more gears than yours... >> >> >> Then there is... >> >> My computers daddy is bigger than yours. > > Hmmm... Gordon Bell is *not* a small man, but "big daddy"? > > ;) Well, wouldn't be 'Sugar-daddy'... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.3 - Running since 01/22/2002 From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 17 16:06:10 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 In-Reply-To: <155.c790e61.29ef225c@aol.com> References: <155.c790e61.29ef225c@aol.com> Message-ID: >I hesitate to mention this even if it is well over 10 years old. > >I have a copy of Heath Zenith Windows that I posted on eBay. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017754574 > >I have been corresponding with collectors as how to verify this is actually >MS Windows 1.0. There are no version numbers at all on the disks, box, manual >and envelopes. > >The Heath Zenith Model Number of the Software package is MS-5063-30. Can >anyone verify what this model number represents? > >Since it comes on 5 5 1/4" 48tpi floppy disks and can be installed in a HZ >8088 PC I feel certain it is original. The manual indicates it can be >installed on a two floppy machine besides on a hard drive. It looks like the same packaging that we used to see with the Z-248's with DOS 3.X and Windows 1 (I believe the actual version number when you installed it was 1.01). I used the inside cover page of the manual for the upgrade to Windows 3.0 from Egghead in 1990. I just dug out what remains of that package (just the box and the manual, as I no longer have the disks) and it's 'Welcome' page xvii shows the same thing as what yours does. There are also two addendum page's stuck in the manual that do identify it as 'Microsoft Windows User's Guide, version 1.0". The one addendum page lists the MS-3063/5063-30 part number at the bottom as well. The side-flap, which is what opens, on the box has a round sticker that states "Microsoft Windows" with no version number. I'd say you likely have the Heath/Zenith version of Windows 1.0. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Wed Apr 17 15:29:02 2002 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... In-Reply-To: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <1019075342.11830.9.camel@silke> On Wed, 2002-04-17 at 18:02, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > gee, in my zealous bargain-hunts I keep being burned. Two bad > CPUs before and now I thought I had a bargain with two UDA50 > sets another KFQSA and a DEUNA set. However, as I unpacked > yesterday, I noticed that the KFQSA was missing one socketed > chip (approx 40 pin DIL, black right in the middle.) Also, one On my KFQSA, this chip is labelled T 23-081E8-00 9205EAI TC 531024P-15-F814 (C) DEC 89 So, it looks like something proprietary to DEC. It might be a ROM, but as far as i can see from following the board traces it has something to do with an i8097 nearby... 'hope this helps ms > grrr, > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de Sieben auf einen Streich From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Wed Apr 17 16:17:32 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac References: <20020417191219.70989.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CBDE66C.5BC38756@Vishay.com> Ethan, in order to make your gauge fair... > Any other estimates? Should we consider BTU/Hr _or_ Amps (since more > power means more heat) or leave both values in the metric? Because different people may use different voltages to drive their equipment, Amps don't tell anything. Use Watts instead. Otherwise, you would discriminate many European people using 230V power, cutting current in half. If you were to mean discriminating us by sticking to plain Amps, I will use the 2*32A the power supplies in my BA-11K provide at 5V and then add in the 10A @ 15V, so how about 74 Amps... ;-) More power means more heat, right. Because BTU/hr specs might be harder to get than power consumption, I vote to kick the BTU/hr value out. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 08:18:26 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Heath Zenith in a Faraday cage, was Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <144.d092c5a.29ef09df@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > At one time I had a Heath Zenith Z150 PC mounted inside a Metal Faraday > cage. Has anyone seen anything like this? I assumed it was for Tempest > type protection but then it did come out of the Hanford Nuclear > Reservation. (no it didn't glow). That's pretty cool. I have an IBM PC (I believe it's AT class) that has been tempest-proofed. It's a case-inside-a-case design, with an internal case where all the hardware mounts to, and then an external case that is the Farday cage. The ports on the back of the inner case are extended to poke out the back of the external case, and there is shielding on the back panel. The IBM badge on the front says "TPC 4 System Unit" and the Type is 4459. Maybe someone can look that up. I must have talked about it here before because I have pictures already on my server: http://www.siconic.com/computers/TPC4-1.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/TPC4-2.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/TPC4-3.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/TPC4-4.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/TPC4-5.jpg My original message is here: http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1999-08/0032.html I can't remember if I actually checked what's on the hard drive or not. See Marvin's follow-up message to that posting. He has one to. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Apr 17 16:22:06 2002 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: References: <015901c1e581$eecc68c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20020417212206.GC25387@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:10:40PM -0400, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > Alcohol vapourises quickly ! Over in the Netherlands we've got > > Spiritus which is a rather non-agressive 75% alcohol > > (ethanol+methanol) solution with some analine added to make it > > undrinkable. (It's got a blueish color). > > If it has methanol in it, it doesn't need anything added to make it > undrinkable. Methanol causes blindness, ulcerated stomach, then death. True, but there will still be some lusers trying to drink the stuff. To keep father Darwin from dealing with those, usually some sufficiently vile tasting (and very hard to remove) agent is added. Yes, there _have_ been incidents of soldiers drinking rocket fuel (where this was simply alcohol) and getting blind/dying from it (reportedly from the russian army). Regards, Alex. -- We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom be better served if we killed them instead? -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 08:26:53 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > Are the pcboard layouts and print sets for the Apple I available > somewhere? I might like to build a replica someday. No PC board layouts that I am aware of, but I do have the schematics. I would very much like to re-create the PC board layouts. Eric Smith and I wanted to try to do this with the last Apple-1 the VCF auctioned but there's really no way to get the layout without desoldering all the sockets, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that with their nicely wave-soldered Apple-1. If someone has an x-ray machine handy, perhaps we could do it that way. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 08:29:53 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <200204172024.g3HKOk527440@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! Quite the score! I have Windows 2.0. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From meltie at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 17 14:52:58 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <000a01c1e643$75246000$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> References: <000a01c1e643$75246000$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <1019073181.2261.10.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Wed, 2002-04-17 at 20:09, Allison wrote: > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman > > > >My computer dims the neighborhood's lights when I turn it on... > > > >My computer has fewer transistors than yours... > > > >My computer has no transistors, just tubes... > > > >My computer's valves burn out faster than yours... > > > >My computer's got more gears than yours... > > > Then there is... > > My computers daddy is bigger than yours. My computer narks my mum off more than yours. (It's in her cellar...) -- My computer's heavier than yours. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 17 16:51:51 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <15b.c818cb0.29ef389e@aol.com> References: <15b.c818cb0.29ef389e@aol.com> Message-ID: >One of the collectors I have been corresponding with has a copy of >Heath Zenith Windows 2.1 and it is marked on the spine of the Box. >Mine has no version at all. > >Mine also runs on MS-DOS 2.0. There is another addendum page that >indicates how to configure windows with MS-DOS 3.1. There is no >mention of MS-DOS 3.3 at all. > >I was hoping someone had a Heath Zenith catalog from that era, 1985-1986. I just found the backup copies of the WIndows disks from my previous message...not the original disks, but copies I had made, just in case. They are labled "Microsoft Windows Ver. 1.03" and, like yours, there are five disks: Setup, Build, Utilities, Fonts, and Applications. The serial# on them is 000-00198819-8-08. I'm 100% positive that they came from the Heath/Zenith package that I have so am pretty sure it reflects what you have as well. Hope this helps. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/df441480/attachment.html From hansp at aconit.org Wed Apr 17 17:10:09 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 References: <155.c790e61.29ef225c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CBDF2C1.5040703@aconit.org> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > The Heath Zenith Model Number of the Software package is MS-5063-30. Can > anyone verify what this model number represents? > Since it comes on 5 5 1/4" 48tpi floppy disks and can be installed in a HZ > 8088 PC I feel certain it is original. The manual indicates it can be > installed on a two floppy machine besides on a hard drive. I have a 4 disk version of "Mircosoft Windows Operating Environment Premiere Edition" for "IBMs and COMPAQs Personal Computers" The 4 disks are labelled as follows: 1) Setup Disk 2) Build Disk 3) Utilities Disk 4) Desktop Applications Disk there is the same 050050P reference nu,mber on each disk. Once again no mention of Windows 1.0 (but there woudl not be would there). Don't know if this helps or confuses the issue. -- HBP From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Apr 17 17:07:12 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <20020417212206.GC25387@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: Rumor has it that there is an expression "tapping the torps", which was a result of sailors drinking the alcohol fuel for torpedoes. To solve the problem, some compound was added that would make one pee bright orange. Fact or fiction, I dunno. But I've heard that from several different sources, and considering that submarine duty is considered high-stress, I wouldn't doubt that it was tried. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Schreiber > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 17:22 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 11:10:40PM -0400, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > > > Alcohol vapourises quickly ! Over in the Netherlands we've got > > > Spiritus which is a rather non-agressive 75% alcohol > > > (ethanol+methanol) solution with some analine added to make it > > > undrinkable. (It's got a blueish color). > > > > If it has methanol in it, it doesn't need anything added to make it > > undrinkable. Methanol causes blindness, ulcerated stomach, then death. > > True, but there will still be some lusers trying to drink the stuff. To > keep father Darwin from dealing with those, usually some sufficiently > vile tasting (and very hard to remove) agent is added. Yes, there _have_ > been incidents of soldiers drinking rocket fuel (where this was simply > alcohol) and getting blind/dying from it (reportedly from the russian > army). > > Regards, > Alex. > -- > We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the > cause of freedom > be better served if we killed them instead? > -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' > comic strip From dittman at dittman.net Wed Apr 17 17:14:05 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <1019049339.2560.91.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> from "Alex White" at Apr 17, 2002 02:15:26 PM Message-ID: <200204172214.g3HME5A19664@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 23:28, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! I didn't write that, I wrote a reply to that message. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 17:17:43 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > Are the pcboard layouts and print sets for the Apple I available > > somewhere? I might like to build a replica someday. > > No PC board layouts that I am aware of, but I do have the schematics. > > I would very much like to re-create the PC board layouts. Eric Smith > and I wanted to try to do this with the last Apple-1 the VCF auctioned > but there's really no way to get the layout without desoldering all > the sockets, and I don't know anyone who would want to do that with > their nicely wave-soldered Apple-1. I thought the Apple I was sold as a kit? It would be possible to desolder a whole board without damage to scan it, but it takes lots of time, patience, and skill. > If someone has an x-ray machine handy, perhaps we could do it that > way. An x-ray won't work very well. The resolution isn't high enough, and the image will look fuzzy. It also won't work at all for double sided boards, which I think are what the Apple I uses. -Toth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 17:20:35 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 In-Reply-To: <155.c790e61.29ef225c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > I hesitate to mention this even if it is well over 10 years old. Even Windoze 3.10 and MS-DOS 5.00 are over 10 years old. > I have a copy of Heath Zenith Windows that I posted on eBay. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017754574 > I have been corresponding with collectors as how to verify this is actually > MS Windows 1.0. There are no version numbers at all on the disks, box, manual > and envelopes. > The Heath Zenith Model Number of the Software package is MS-5063-30. Can > anyone verify what this model number represents? The date and time of the files on the disks would provide MAJOR clues of which exact version it is. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 17 17:25:00 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:38 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Apr 17, 2002 05:06:10 pm" Message-ID: <200204172225.PAA00383@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> >I hesitate to mention this even if it is well over 10 years old. > >I have a copy of Heath Zenith Windows that I posted on eBay. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017754574 > >I have been corresponding with collectors as how to verify this is actually >MS Windows 1.0. There are no version numbers at all on the disks, box, manual >and envelopes. > >The Heath Zenith Model Number of the Software package is MS-5063-30. Can >anyone verify what this model number represents? I've got the same package. Unfortunately I can't remember the model number of machine it came with, other than that it was a nice machine with LIM EMS3.0 (1 MB IIRC) on the mother board. The Windows version is 1.03. I may be the only person to tell you this, but I think Windows 1.03 was much better than 2.X. Windows 1.X was able to multitask "well behaved" text mode (i.e. I/O through DOS or BIOS calls) applications. I found this to be quite useful for programs I was developing myself. I also don't think lack of overlapping windows was that big of a drawback. I mainly used In-A-Vision (a predecessor to MicroGraphix Draw) for drawing/CAD under Windows 1.X. The Video 7 VGA card I had came with an 800x600 16 color driver for Windows 1.X. Windows 1 was even fast on an 10 MHz 8088. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 17:25:39 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 In-Reply-To: <155.c790e61.29ef225c@aol.com> Message-ID: BTW, ALL version of Windoze through 3.00 will also run on an 8088. 3.10 requires a 286, with at least a tiny amount of extended memory (will not install on a 286 without extended RAM, such as a TI travelmate. Even 3.10 CAN be run from a [1.4M] floppy, but it'squite a project to get it to work that way. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 17 17:28:12 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <000701c1e648$952db900$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> References: <000701c1e648$952db900$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Consequently, looking back at the calendar, I think that >it's far more likely that this is Windows 2.0 or 2.1. Actually, his copyright page from the book, which mine lacks due to it being required as proof-of-ownership to get a low-cost upgrade to Windows 3.0 from Egghead in '90, shows dates of: Copyright 1985 by Microsoft Corp. Copyright 1986 by Zenith Data Systems Also, the diagrams in the manual show file dates of late 1984 and throughout 1985. Also according to various sources I've used for the timeline on my website, Microsoft first announced Windows 1.0 in June of 1985 and started shipping it in November 1985. Granted none of it is hard evidence but it does a decent job, along with my previous posts in reply to his question, at suggesting he does have one of the Windows 1.X versions from Zenith. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 17:34:35 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020417191219.70989.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former boss of mine would > call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights... > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. Should that read cubicfoot * BTU/Hr * pounds * (amps/KByte) * MIPS ? Should be WATTs rather than AMPs, since the power consumption is the key issue, not the current. In the interest of international relations, should we switch to KG instead of pounds? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 17:36:44 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020417201858.GB736087@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: > yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the > "classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic > computer in existence ;) Consider the Epson RC-20 - a wristwatch with a Z80 and a serial port. The current formula fails to include a parameter for age. From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed Apr 17 17:58:04 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: More 11/750 PSU Qs Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E26@BUSH02> Andreas, >> running only one in "voltage source" mode, the >> other(s) in "current source" mode effectively. > This is how any group of paralell power supplies works. And this requires the over-current protection to not shut down the individual supply, but instead have it contribute as much as can safely be done. On the other hand... No. All the supplies are set up as constant voltage. They are paralelled through either load share resistors or blocking diodes. Each can be overcurrent lockout protected as the forward drop of each diode or resistor ensures load sharing. No single supply will be at it's current limit. This is not a theory, this is how regulated paralelled power supplies work. This will be inhibited by the above-mentioned load-sharing feature, so you need some kind of "communication" between the supplies in order to be able either to share load or to completely shut down all others instead of running them in current-limiting mode after some have failed. None of the supplies are ever run in current limit mode, they are all, always, running as voltage sources. In th eevent of faliure once the remaining supplies can no longer cope with the load they all shut down in short measure. No communication is needed. > Use enough supplies so that one faliure is > tollerable. The only thing that needs preparation for this may be mechanics: you wouldn't want to try unscrewing thick power wires and risking them to touch any other metal parts inside a running system... You use off the shelf supplies and they each plug (via the load share network) into the output busbar. No bolts, no screws, just (un)plug and go. So, I think the bottom line is: running PSUs in parallel is something that really can be done, but there are several bells and whistles you need to take into account. It's really quite easy, AT type 'dumb' switchers just need a blocking diode, make sure though that you turn them all on together. .. We get to a point where a microcontroller makes sense to control this, and I have seen this in real systems. As have I. There is nothing more anoying than the faliure of a system because someone decided a microprocessor was needed where Kirchoff's laws would have been sufficient. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed Apr 17 18:07:39 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E27@BUSH02> > In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former > boss of mine would call it), let me suggest the > "ultimate" metric for bragging rights... > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. Should that read cubicfoot * BTU/Hr * pounds * (amps/KByte) * MIPS ? Should be WATTs rather than AMPs, since the power consumption is the key issue, not the current. In the interest of international relations, should we switch to KG instead of pounds? And cubic meters instead of feet? How about KbyteMIPS / Wm^3 smallest number wins? Steam driven difference engine anyone? Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Apr 17 18:25:57 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... References: <20020417181811.15848.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CBE0485.6080501@aurora.regenstrief.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>I noticed that the KFQSA was missing one socketed >>chip (approx 40 pin DIL, black right in the middle.) >> > > A microcontroller? A T-11? It's too new for my stuff; never even > seen one. Unfortunately, the picture in the Visual Field Guide at > http://vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/m7769b1.jpg is none too legible. Yes, that's the one I'm talking about. >>Also, one >>of the UDA50 boards the M7.65 I think is missing a whole set >>of 10 or so socketed chips all of equal size on the side. >> > > If I had a UDA50 at home, I'd be glad see what's socketed on it, but I > cannot. Looking a a KDA50, I see lots of AMD PROMs that resemble > what you are describing. Those may be similar in function, if not > in content - http://vaxarchive.org/hw/vfg/m7164.jpg yes, another hit, I know what you mean. The UDA50 has more though. > You are probably hosed. :-( I think so. grrr, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 10:28:13 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: It's alive! Message-ID: We've managed to get the Apple-1 being auctioned working. We can enter commands into the monitor and get expected responses. We're going to get a cassette drive hooked up to it and attempt to load BASIC next. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Apr 17 18:10:30 2002 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: Heath Zenith in a Faraday cage, was Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <144.d092c5a.29ef09df@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020417160901.023460c0@mail.azstarnet.com> At 01:24 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At one time I had a Heath Zenith Z150 PC mounted inside a Metal Faraday >cage. Has anyone seen anything like this? I assumed it was for Tempest >type protection but then it did come out of the Hanford Nuclear >Reservation. (no it didn't glow). We had a bunch of these when I worked for the Navy. We paid big bucks for them, they had a monochrome monitor that was hooked up to CGA or something really funky like that. Ran Wordstar 3.3, Lotus 1-2-3 and dBase III+. Ah, the good old days. GZ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 17 18:40:29 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <20020417180143.17028.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005601c1e669$4200fc80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ISTR that Marlin P. Jones & Associates had a 4x40 character LCD module pretty reasonably priced. If you simply map it into the space the 6520 would occupy, you may have satisfactory results. I know for starters you'll be ignoring half of 4 lines instead of half of two, but once you hack the AIM monitor to handle the LCD, you'll be better off with the bigger display. ISTR that there's an AIM65-version that has 40-character display lines. You may be able to get a copy of the ROM listing for that. You'd then only have to deal with addressing into the LCD, and the native firmware would handle the other details for you. My AIMs haven't got a 40 character display, so I can't help you with the ROM listing, though. The 6520 doesn't apply a major load, but it is a really silly thing to use under any circumstances. The mfg sold 'em though, so they had to use 'em for something. You could pretty easily attach a 6520 between the LCD and the bus. The LCD probably can't drive the bus, however, with all its capacitance, so I'd look long and hard at the use of a 74HC245 for the data bus buffer if I were looking to attach it directly, which seems to me to be a good idea. Attach phase-2 to 'E' and R/W to R/W. Then attach A0 to RS. Use the '245 "backwards, i.e. with the bus attached to the high-numbered pins, so that you can attach R/W to the A*/B signal to steer the data and the 6520's CS2* signal to enable the datapath. I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I thought I did, but, well ... they say the mind's the second thing to go ... can't remember the first ... regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: AIM-65 displays > > I am evaluating building a replacement display for the AIM-65 that does > not use the DL1416. I have several modern options - a 20x1 LCD is > cheap enough, as are more modern 4-char ASCII LED displays. The interface > is somewhat trivial - the connector on the AIM-65 mainboard has enough > signals to talk to a 6520 PIA (since that's what is on the normal display > board to begin with). There are couple of angles to pursue... > > I have successfully tested a Motorola 6821 in place of the Rockwell 6520 > in a real AIM-65. Since I have a few 6520s and many 6821s, that's a win. > Either way, it's trivial to hang a display off of the 6502 bus without > a PIA in the way. I'm curious if anyone knows why they bothered to > put a 6520 on the display card? Did they want to keep the bus loading > to a small, known quantity? If so, then I'll consider that any ASCII > LED solution I come up with needs to have appropriate signal conditioning. > I can't see how a modern LCD display would load the bus any worse than > a 6520, so it might be worth the direct approach. > > So... the hardware is no big deal. The software, though, could be lots > more work. I have real ROMs and ROM images. Are there any sources to > the AIM-65 ROMs that are in a state to be compiled back into working, > matching binaries? If I'm going to change the nature of the display, > the code will have to follow. If the code is changing, then there's > no reason I can't experiment with a multi-line display - I have a 20x4 > VCD and a 20X4 LCD display already in hand. I think I can locate a > 40x2 in my junk box, but at first, I'll probably ignore the right half > and if I use it, treat it like a 20x2. > > Is there anyone out there who has done any real AIM-65 hacking? I can > start from zero if I have to, but if there's any preexisting work out > there, I'd like to see about starting ahead of zero. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Apr 17 18:57:40 2002 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... References: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> <1019075342.11830.9.camel@silke> Message-ID: <3CBE0BF4.F241DAE2@nktelco.net> Michael Schneider wrote: > On my KFQSA, this chip is labelled > > T 23-081E8-00 9205EAI > TC 531024P-15-F814 > (C) DEC 89 > > So, it looks like something proprietary to DEC. It might be a ROM, It is a ROM (EPROM) on mine: AM27C1024 64Kx16. The TC531024 is probably a Toshiba masked ROM. -chuck From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 17 19:03:05 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 Message-ID: <200204180003.RAA26051@clulw009.amd.com> >X-Server-Uuid: e4c4d26a-1188-11d5-b029-00508be35655 >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f >Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:17:43 -0500 (CDT) >From: Tothwolf >X-X-Sender: >To: "Classic Computer" >Subject: Re: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-WSS-ID: 10A3210192468-01-02 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > >> If someone has an x-ray machine handy, perhaps we could do it that >> way. > >An x-ray won't work very well. The resolution isn't high enough, and the >image will look fuzzy. It also won't work at all for double sided boards, >which I think are what the Apple I uses. > >-Toth > > Hi That depends on the xray machine you are talking about. The ones we use in industry can see a single unsoldered pin on one of those C4 packages. I'm sure that is more than enough resolution for a PC board. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 17:31:06 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 16, 2 11:10:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/d7dd4fa3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 17:33:53 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: cure equiepement that was in the rain... best practices??? In-Reply-To: <3CBCFB9E.7060505@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 17, 2 00:35:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 710 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020417/fe56543c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 18:47:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: TTL computing In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20020417101622.03c8c8d8@pc> from "John Foust" at Apr 17, 2 10:17:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/d1b34502/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 18:49:14 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... In-Reply-To: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Apr 17, 2 11:02:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/06c4353c/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 11:08:04 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > I thought the Apple I was sold as a kit? It would be possible to desolder > a whole board without damage to scan it, but it takes lots of time, > patience, and skill. I believe all of the units after the first batch of 50 delivered to The Byte Shop were wave soldered. I could be wrong. I have to go back and refresh my Apple-1 history. But this board and the board sold in 2000 were definitely wave soldered. See for yourself: http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-rear.jpg (this one has had a couple sockets replaced) I don't have a rear shot of the 2000 Apple-1. > An x-ray won't work very well. The resolution isn't high enough, and the > image will look fuzzy. It also won't work at all for double sided > boards, which I think are what the Apple I uses. Back to the drawing board (literally ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From blacklord at telstra.com Wed Apr 17 19:08:24 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <1f7f041fdd20.1fdd201f7f04@bigpond.com> Hi Dick, > I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > thought I did, > but, well ... they say the mind's the second thing to go ... can't > rememberthe first ... > The AIM is pretty similar to the KIM-1 no ? (I may be mistaken) The KIM's ROM dissasembly is pretty freely available, I have a version that was suppied with a text file on how to build your own using current chips. Made a half hearted start at it, but currently it's gathering dust :-) cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 11:12:08 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the > > "classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic > > computer in existence ;) > > Consider the Epson RC-20 - a wristwatch with a Z80 and a serial port. > > The current formula fails to include a parameter for age. If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. We need a unit or label for this number. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dan at ekoan.com Wed Apr 17 19:08:45 2002 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <15b.c818cb0.29ef389e@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417195059.04d53050@enigma> At 04:44 PM 4/17/02 -0400, you wrote: >I was hoping someone had a Heath Zenith catalog from that era, 1985-1986. I haven't found a catalog from that period yet, but in the _Capital Heath User's Group_ (CHUG) newsletter from March 1987 there is a configuration for Government employee purchase of Zenith Z-248 computer systems. In the breakdown is listed "MS Windows" with a part number MS-5036-30. It goes along with part number OS-63-41, "MS-DOS version 3.2". As an aside, in the same issue there is a description of the February Capital PC User's Group at which the featured speaker was Bill Gates. Some relevant highlights: "...the Macintosh represented a machine that had sufficient critical mass to complete with the PC-compatible dominance of the market." [...] "Microsoft believes that the user interfaces pioneered by the Macintosh will become the industry standard for microcomputers." Cheers, Dan From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 17 19:15:14 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: It's alive! Message-ID: >We've managed to get the Apple-1 being auctioned working. We can enter >commands into the monitor and get expected responses. We're going to get >a cassette drive hooked up to it and attempt to load BASIC next. In that case... I'll raise my $25 bid to $30 + shipping, but not a penny more! (since I will cover shipping, that should outbid Toth's $35 offer earlier) Damn, I wish I could just get to play with an Apple 1 someday :-( (stewing in jealousy that Sellam is getting to resurrect this one) -chris From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Apr 17 19:15:21 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: ; from tothwolf@concentric.net on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20020417171521.B3255@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > It's been spoken for a few times over. Now I wish I had a couple of > > them. > > It's a nice little machine that looks like it was produced in low volumes. Certainly the front panel has more features than you usually find (assuming they control the CPU and not some other piece of hardware). I still haven't figured out what some of the buttons might do. -- Derek From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Apr 17 19:25:54 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: I AM AN IDIOT! ARGHHHHH! Message-ID: <3CBE1292.7090208@aurora.regenstrief.org> This is sooo frustrating. I shot myself in the foot and probably betrayed some of my friends here. I was going to snipe the 8 PDP boards from eBay that included the DEUNA set for 10 bucks or so. I set my agent to the wrong auction! Now a reseller got that stuff for $5.50. A RESELLER, FOR FIVE BUCKS! I could jump under a falling VAX for that! I am sooooooo sorry if you had been standing back because you saw the bid history. I will never do that again. But then when will there ever be a DEUNA for five bucks! A reseller. Argh. -Gunther From rmurphy at itm-inst.com Wed Apr 17 19:21:25 2002 From: rmurphy at itm-inst.com (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... In-Reply-To: <1019075342.11830.9.camel@silke> References: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417201635.00a859c0@mail.itm-inst.com> At 10:29 PM 4/17/02 +0200, Michael Schneider wrote: >On my KFQSA, this chip is labelled > > T 23-081E8-00 9205EAI > TC 531024P-15-F814 > (C) DEC 89 > >So, it looks like something proprietary to DEC. It might be a ROM, >but as far as i can see from following the board traces it has >something to do with an i8097 nearby... The part number is 23-081E8-00; 23-class part numbers are ROMs. It seems to me that you wouldn't be violating any copyrights making a replacement copy for another duly-licensed KFQSA board. -Rick From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 19:48:41 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > > We need a unit or label for this number. D'ya mean like Classic Computer Calculated Combined Cool Coefficient? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 19:49:48 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: It's alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > In that case... I'll raise my $25 bid to $30 + shipping, but not a penny > more! (since I will cover shipping, that should outbid Toth's $35 offer > earlier) $37.50 From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 17 20:03:47 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > An x-ray won't work very well. The resolution isn't high enough, and the > > image will look fuzzy. It also won't work at all for double sided > > boards, which I think are what the Apple I uses. > > Back to the drawing board (literally ;) Wouldn't a CT scan work? Now to find one that can be hyjacked... --Pat From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 17 20:07:49 2002 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: I AM AN IDIOT! ARGHHHHH! In-Reply-To: <3CBE1292.7090208@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <200204180107.UAA20475@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I'm doing pretty well, considering i havent even bid yet. You figure it out ;) What board number was that DEUNA? -Lawrence LeMay > This is sooo frustrating. I shot myself in the foot and > probably betrayed some of my friends here. > > I was going to snipe the 8 PDP boards from eBay that included > the DEUNA set for 10 bucks or so. I set my agent to the > wrong auction! Now a reseller got that stuff for $5.50. > A RESELLER, FOR FIVE BUCKS! > > I could jump under a falling VAX for that! > > I am sooooooo sorry if you had been standing back because > you saw the bid history. > > I will never do that again. But then when will there ever > be a DEUNA for five bucks! > > A reseller. > > Argh. > -Gunther > From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 17 20:08:34 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: >computer cool factor >We need a unit or label for this number. Calculate your CCF at the VCF -chris From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 17 20:24:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <1f7f041fdd20.1fdd201f7f04@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <001f01c1e677$dca23840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are some similarities, though there are also some significant differences. The KIM, IIRC, used address lines as chip selects more than the AIM did. In fact, I don't believe (schematic is in my lap) I don't think the AIM did that at all. The result of this practice is waste of memory space, due to framentation and redundant decoding is at the heart of that. The AIM uses decoders to select the peripherals and that makes for a cleaner arrangement. Now, I designed a DRAM board and FDC for the KIM-1 at one time, though I never used 'em, not being a KIM-owner myself. The SYM seemed also to use address lines for chip selects, so I didn't spend time with it either. They all had the same bus pinout, IIRC. I don't think any of them had full-function debug monitors. By that I mean something with the ability to (1) examine, move, and modify memory map content, (2) read from some outside source in block mode, (3) save to some outside destination device in some block mode, (4) perform line-by-line assembly, and (5) perform line-by-line disassembly, (6)single-step through code and (7) set/clear breakpoints when running code. There are lots of other features, but if you keep the MSDOS DEBUG program in mind, that's the sort of thing that MOTOROLA, for example, provided for nearly all their processors. The AIM has a resident debugger of some sort, plus and assembler and a basic rom. I'm not convinced that anyone ever produced an OS of any sort specifically for it, but the APEX OS was hacked to run on the KIM/SYM/and AIM. The AIM version was probably the cleanest, but I don't know anyone who has it any longer. The differences, aside from device addresses, between the resident monitors for these three systems that share a common bus, will be in their display handler, their cassette handler, and the fact the AIM has not only the TTY handler that both the KIM and SYM have, but a built-in printer as well, which, though not the greatest, is WAY better than trying to remember what the code was. If you skip over the I/O there's not a lot to these monitors. If you have a decent display of some sort, and it's arguable that a 4x20 or evne 4x16 might be adequate, you can probably run a pretty decent debugger provided you can sufficiently expand your memory. There were several easy hacks to the AIM board that relied on the presence of additional memory on daughterboards or on expansion boards that were marketed by several third party vendors. It's pretty easy to max out the memory nowadays by putting a daugheterboard on the CPU socket and enabling a block of RAM on it by the absence of chip selects to other I/O and memory on the AIM board. The same, of course, works for the other boards. If you want memory or FDC schematics, I can probably find them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "blacklord" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:08 PM Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > Hi Dick, > > > I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > thought I did, > > but, well ... they say the mind's the second thing to go ... can't > > rememberthe first ... > > > > The AIM is pretty similar to the KIM-1 no ? (I may be mistaken) The > KIM's ROM dissasembly is pretty freely available, I have a version that > was suppied with a text file on how to build your own using current > chips. > > Made a half hearted start at it, but currently it's gathering dust :-) > > cheers, > > Lance > > ---------------- > Powered by telstra.com > > > > From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 17 20:25:13 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <200204180125.SAA26108@clulw009.amd.com> >From: blacklord > >Hi Dick, > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I >> thought I did, >> but, well ... they say the mind's the second thing to go ... can't >> rememberthe first ... >> > >The AIM is pretty similar to the KIM-1 no ? (I may be mistaken) The >KIM's ROM dissasembly is pretty freely available, I have a version that >was suppied with a text file on how to build your own using current >chips. > -----Snip------ Not even close! They both use 6502's. That is about where the similarities end. The KIM was a hex readout. The AIM is an alpha/numb readout. The AIM runs a printer in parallel with the display. The KIM has a small key pad, the AIM had a full keyboard. I could pull my chip and disassemble it but someone else could deal with putting comments on the code. I'll look at my AIM stuff tonight and see if they had any listing for the monitor. It seems like they only had entry points but that would be helpful in figuring it out. Dwight From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 20:33:37 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: <20020417171521.B3255@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > > > It's been spoken for a few times over. Now I wish I had a couple of > > > them. > > > > It's a nice little machine that looks like it was produced in low volumes. > > Certainly the front panel has more features than you usually find > (assuming they control the CPU and not some other piece of hardware). > I still haven't figured out what some of the buttons might do. I've been wondering what that port on the rear of the system is for. It could be for nearly anything, but the only way to find out is to trace it out down to the board level. -Toth From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 20:38:45 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020417201858.GB736087@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote: > This got me to thinking, since I have an iPaq. It's approximate > cuftBUTlbA/KBMIPS rating is: > > 5.651403e-08. [1] > > yes, a very small number indeed. if this number is used to rate the > "classicness" of a computer, the iPaq could very well be the least classic > computer in existence ;) > > [1] numbers involved: > cubic footage: 0.75. I think this might be high since I didn't actually > measure it. WAY high. about 0.1' x 0.33' x 0.6' would be very generous, even with the sleeve thingie. (1+" x 4" x ~7") That's like 0.0165 cubic feet. Doc From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 12:42:05 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: It's alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > Damn, I wish I could just get to play with an Apple 1 someday :-( > (stewing in jealousy that Sellam is getting to resurrect this one) Well, I wish I were so cool. The restoration is being done by the owner. I am providing all the parts and emotional support though :) I'm going to be making a video of the working machine for advertisement purposes tomorrow. We hope to show it running BASIC and some interesting programs. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 20:43:13 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > > found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! > > Quite the score! I have Windows 2.0. So somewhere I have a box of Tandy "Windows 286". That would be near v3.0, right? Should I go dig it out and report further? IIRC, it's still shrinkwrapped. Doc From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Apr 17 20:52:47 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: It's alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > > In that case... I'll raise my $25 bid to $30 + shipping, but not a penny > > more! (since I will cover shipping, that should outbid Toth's $35 offer > > earlier) > > $37.50 > > $97.52 - and the rest of you amateurs can go home now. Big Dog is in da house! Cheerz John From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 21:03:55 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > I thought the Apple I was sold as a kit? It would be possible to desolder > > a whole board without damage to scan it, but it takes lots of time, > > patience, and skill. > > I believe all of the units after the first batch of 50 delivered to > The Byte Shop were wave soldered. I could be wrong. I have to go > back and refresh my Apple-1 history. I wasn't aware of that. Let me know what you find out. I had always heard that nearly all of Apple I systems were sold as unassembled board kits. > But this board and the board sold in 2000 were definitely wave > soldered. See for yourself: > > http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-rear.jpg > (this one has had a couple sockets replaced) Well, I can spot at least one replaced dip socket, bottom right corner of that image, second chip from the right edge. Which others did you notice? I actually would have expected any repairs on a "rare" Apple I to have been much cleaner than what I see from that image, but it's possible they were made by the last owner before he figured out it was "rare". It also seems quite possible to me that one person (especially considering what I read of the board's history) with very good soldering skills and the proper tools did the initial build of the board, and someone else made a few repairs later on. As far as wave soldering goes, I routinely repair factory soldered boards, and very few people can tell my work from factory work just by looking at it. I imagine someone could use a microscope or other very high powered viewer and see the tiny differences in the solder alloys, but other than that, it is next to impossible to differentiate properly done solder joints. The trick to getting clean joints is using a solder alloy that flows well, and having a "feel" for your soldering iron. > I don't have a rear shot of the 2000 Apple-1. Before the board is sold, it might be worthwhile to scan both sides of it on a high resolution flatbed scanner (be careful not to scratch the glass). It might also be helpful to make notes about what components are located where, especially ones like radial mount electrolytic capacitors, where you can't see their markings from a top view. -Toth From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 21:05:37 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: Name Your Poison; Was Re: cure equiepement etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > True, but IIRC, methanol doesn't taste too unpleasant (I have never tried > it, nor do I intend to!). So I guess idiots drink the 'meths' (as we call > it in the UK), not realising it's going to do them a lot of harm. Yeah? What about the Sterno dudes? I have with my own eyes seen people strain Sterno and drink it. Those fools *know* it's gonna do them a lot of harm. They just also have a jones on. Instant coma. Doc From rhb57 at vol.com Wed Apr 17 21:06:16 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: I AM AN IDIOT! ARGHHHHH! In-Reply-To: <200204180107.UAA20475@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Could be worse - you could have written "I ARE A IDIOT" or "I AM A IDIOT" - I hear both misuses regularly from the Ky natives, and thy think they're right , or that I'm trying to "brain warsh" them. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lawrence LeMay => Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:08 PM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: I AM AN IDIOT! ARGHHHHH! => => => I'm doing pretty well, considering i havent even bid yet. You => figure it out ;) => => What board number was that DEUNA? => => -Lawrence LeMay => => > This is sooo frustrating. I shot myself in the foot and => > probably betrayed some of my friends here. => > => > I was going to snipe the 8 PDP boards from eBay that included => > the DEUNA set for 10 bucks or so. I set my agent to the => > wrong auction! Now a reseller got that stuff for $5.50. => > A RESELLER, FOR FIVE BUCKS! => > => > I could jump under a falling VAX for that! => > => > I am sooooooo sorry if you had been standing back because => > you saw the bid history. => > => > I will never do that again. But then when will there ever => > be a DEUNA for five bucks! => > => > A reseller. => > => > Argh. => > -Gunther => > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 17 21:09:03 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: Geek-Factor Metrics; Was Re: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > > I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > > can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > > > > We need a unit or label for this number. > > D'ya mean like Classic Computer Calculated Combined Cool Coefficient? Fred, For a grumpy old codger, you simply rule. Got my vote.... Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 17 21:10:47 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: who says great deals can't be had on ebay! Message-ID: <000901c1e67e$4203fd30$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was going through the Ebay completed items just out of boredom, and noticed that an HP2748B paper tape reader went for $5.00 back on April 6th. That is one HECK of a deal!!! About a year and a half ago I saw (much to my chagrin, long story) an HP 7900A disc drive in working condition go for about $100 bucks. I missed the 2748B, but wouldn't have bid anyways, I already have two :) Jay West From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Apr 17 21:15:10 2002 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <200204172024.g3HKOk527440@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It's not much help, but the first Z248 that we recieved had MS-DOS 3.x and > Windows 1.0x floppies included with it. > > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! > > On a vaguely interesting Windows 1.x note, the PC version of the game > "Balance of Power" included just enough of Windows 1.x to run the game! It > was the only use I ever had for Windows 1.x :^) That takes me back. Balance of Power was a cool game. Spent many late nights in college playing that game (Political Sci major). The graphics were sort of neat for a strategy-type game. I did not realize that it was an early windows. -- From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 17 22:00:36 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > I've been wondering what that port on the rear of the system is for. It > could be for nearly anything, but the only way to find out is to trace it > out down to the board level. >From what I can tell, it's a digital I or O port. It connects to three cards (which also connect to the 24 LEDs and toggle switches on the front panel) which each have a 6821 and a few transistors on them, so I'd guess it's for output. -- Pat From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Apr 17 22:14:50 2002 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: I AM AN IDIOT! ARGHHHHH! References: <200204180107.UAA20475@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3CBE3A2A.8070705@aurora.regenstrief.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > I'm doing pretty well, considering i havent even bid yet. You figure it out ;) > > What board number was that DEUNA? M7792+M7793 sigh, slowly I'm recovering. It meant a lot to my piece of mind to just cry out my anger to the list. -Gunther From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 17 14:17:02 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-rear.jpg > > (this one has had a couple sockets replaced) > > Well, I can spot at least one replaced dip socket, bottom right corner of > that image, second chip from the right edge. Which others did you notice? That is one of the monitor ROM sockets, which was defective and was replaced when the seller first got it (if you haven't read the background info, it was donated in non-working condition to the Homebrew Computer Club to raise funds, and he paid something like $80 for it, which was a real good deal even back then). He also replaced the keyboard socket with an Augut socket that was much more robust (second row from the bottom, fourth socket over). > I actually would have expected any repairs on a "rare" Apple I to have > been much cleaner than what I see from that image, but it's possible they > were made by the last owner before he figured out it was "rare". It also These were made contemporaneously, i.e. in 1976 when it was just another computer that needed hacking. > seems quite possible to me that one person (especially considering what I > read of the board's history) with very good soldering skills and the > proper tools did the initial build of the board, and someone else made a > few repairs later on. It was wave soldered. The repairs were made by the seller way back in 1976. > Before the board is sold, it might be worthwhile to scan both sides of it > on a high resolution flatbed scanner (be careful not to scratch the > glass). It might also be helpful to make notes about what components are > located where, especially ones like radial mount electrolytic capacitors, > where you can't see their markings from a top view. I think Eric Smith did that already with the last one. One of the problems with making an Apple-1 replication is that the video shift registers are next to impossible to find. One part of the lot of the Apple-1 auctioned in 2000 was a set of spare shift registers. Those are the only I've ever seen not in an Apple-1 board. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 17 22:18:48 2002 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 Message-ID: <20020417200940.Y4262-100000@agora.rdrop.com> It was written... >On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: >> >> > I thought the Apple I was sold as a kit? It would be possible to >> >desolder >> > a whole board without damage to scan it, but it takes lots of time, >> > patience, and skill. >> >> I believe all of the units after the first batch of 50 delivered to >> The Byte Shop were wave soldered. I could be wrong. I have to go >> back and refresh my Apple-1 history. > > >I wasn't aware of that. Let me know what you find out. I had always heard >that nearly all of Apple I systems were sold as unassembled board kits. Well... as employee #4 of Byte Shop #4 (Portland, Oregon), and the one there who had to make various of that first batch actually do something interesting... I can offer a few observations on this: As I recall, all of the Apple-1 units that came through our store were pre-assembled. I seem to recall someone asking about kits, but the 'party line' at the time was that Apple (I seem to recall the comment being attributed to Woz) considered it too difficult to assemble (without damaging it) for the 'average' customer. Keeping in mind that whoever actually bought one of the things had to figure out how to connect a (parallel) keyboard to it, plus the video and cabling for the cassette recorder. What you may have been thinking of was the occassions where Woz passed out schematics at the Homebrew Computer Club meetings for anyone who wanted to try to assemble on on their own. Just my $0.02 worth... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Apr 17 22:23:10 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: ; from tothwolf@concentric.net on Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:33:37PM -0500 References: <20020417171521.B3255@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20020417202310.A10640@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:33:37PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 02:24:28PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > > > It's been spoken for a few times over. Now I wish I had a couple of > > > > them. > > > > > > It's a nice little machine that looks like it was produced in low volumes. > > > > Certainly the front panel has more features than you usually find > > (assuming they control the CPU and not some other piece of hardware). > > I still haven't figured out what some of the buttons might do. > > I've been wondering what that port on the rear of the system is for. It > could be for nearly anything, but the only way to find out is to trace it > out down to the board level. Some of the front-panel functions (e.g., JOG) sounded like they might control something else. Maybe even a VCR? So that's why I wrote "(assuming they control the CPU and not some other piece of hardware)", and maybe the port has something to do with that. -- Derek From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Apr 17 22:30:08 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa References: <200204171739.AA15749@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: <3CBE3DC0.B0C7BF04@compsys.to> >Carl Lowenstein wrote: > > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 09:55:58 -0400 > > From: "Jerome H. Fine" > > Organization: Just Sufficient > > X-Accept-Language: en > > To: "William R. Buckley" , > > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > > Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa > > It took a week of trying, but I have finally downloaded all three CD > > images for RSX-11 and RT-11 from: > > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ > > Note also that the file MD5SUMS seems to contain checksum > > values, but I don't know how to use these values or produce them > > myself to check if my files are correct. Can anyone help? > There is a program "md5sum" that comes with GNU textutils. It > will run on most Unix or Unix-like systems. I suspect that with > a fair amount of effort it could be made to run on RT11, compiled > with DECUS C, but I haven't really looked at that.. Jerome Fine replies: NOT necessary!! I was very fortunate to have pointed out to me: http://www.fourmilab.ch/md5/ at which point I clicked on "md5.zip", downloaded that file, UnZipped and used MD5.EXE to generate the MD5 values. So I have a question! If my MD5 values are identical to the corresponding MD5 values in MD5SUMS, can I assume that I have received three identical images? > When you run mda5sum on a file it produces a 32-hex-digit "message digest". > This should match the one that you downloaded from the original source. Been there now. Done that! Does anyone on a low speed connection want a copy? I think my blanks are about $ 0.75 each and the labels plus envelope about the same! Postage and shipping carton are extra which I can find out. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 17 22:59:20 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: who says great deals can't be had on ebay! In-Reply-To: <000901c1e67e$4203fd30$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20020418035920.82168.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com> I agree-but you have to research, and be vigilent and patient. Look where others might not. I picked up a Remex paper tape spooler/reader at a good price, $36. I found the parallel interface doc via Google and intend to make a simple parallel to serial converter for it with a PIC (I've already programmed it before I've gotten it) because it's more practical to use it this way given my purposes. From the same guy I goy a mess of pre-80 PCB's, with loads of socketed EPROMS, CPU's, etc, for $16. I noted on these boards that there are 20+ white/gold EPROMS. If this turns out to be a dud deal, I can sell the chips alone on eBay for more than I paid for the whole package. BTW, have you ever noticed that it seems as though people "shadow" you on eBay? I've seen this one guy bid on virtually everything I'm interested in, and this person has an unlimited budget! --- Jay West wrote: > I was going through the Ebay completed items just > out of boredom, and > noticed that an HP2748B paper tape reader went for > $5.00 back on April 6th. > > That is one HECK of a deal!!! About a year and a > half ago I saw (much to my > chagrin, long story) an HP 7900A disc drive in > working condition go for > about $100 bucks. > > I missed the 2748B, but wouldn't have bid anyways, I > already have two :) > > Jay West > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Apr 17 23:10:11 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 17, 2 04:12:08 pm" Message-ID: <200204180410.VAA13250@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > > We need a unit or label for this number. The neuron. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'll be at the opening of my garage door." From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 23:23:07 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:39 2005 Subject: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa In-Reply-To: Re: Download CD images for RSX-11 and RT-11 Freeware CDs from Tim Shoppa (Jerome H. Fine) References: <200204171739.AA15749@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> <3CBE3DC0.B0C7BF04@compsys.to> Message-ID: <15550.18987.211637.670500@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 17, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > So I have a question! If my MD5 values are identical to the corresponding > MD5 values in MD5SUMS, can I assume that I have received three > identical images? Yup. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From lists at subatomix.com Wed Apr 17 23:50:40 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:40 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <180331054170.20020417235040@subatomix.com> Why resort to scanning, X-raying, etc.? Has anyone thought about just asking Woz for the information? -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 18 00:08:33 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:40 2005 Subject: NEC V20 and Rainbow (was: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M) Message-ID: <20020418051001.IYHS3633.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Lawrence Walker > I keep hoping I'll find a cheap stash of V-20s to use on about 3 or 4 of my > boxes, altho they come up fairly reasonable on EPay from time to time. Is US $2.95 reasonable? Jameco sells this ancient IC. Glen 0/0 From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Apr 18 00:23:06 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:40 2005 Subject: Digital Shark Was Re: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <1019049339.2560.91.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> References: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020418152120.028809a0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 02:15 PM 17/04/2002 +0100, Alex White wrote: >On Tue, 2002-04-16 at 23:28, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! >Hmm, what about the reference design that DEC did for a Set Top Box? >Nickname "shark", it had a StrongARM, Compactflash and PCMCIA, network, >serial, RF out etc etc, all in a package about 5" square and 1" high. Have a look at http://www.research.compaq.com/SRC/iag/ for information on the shark and http://crl.research.compaq.com/projects/personalserver/ for information on the skiff. Pretty neat stuff they get to do at CRL. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Thu Apr 18 01:16:30 2002 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:40 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417201635.00a859c0@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020417201635.00a859c0@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <1019110590.25795.0.camel@silke> How could you know i wanted to ask just that? 8-) ms On Thu, 2002-04-18 at 02:21, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 10:29 PM 4/17/02 +0200, Michael Schneider wrote: > >On my KFQSA, this chip is labelled > > > > T 23-081E8-00 9205EAI > > TC 531024P-15-F814 > > (C) DEC 89 > > > >So, it looks like something proprietary to DEC. It might be a ROM, > >but as far as i can see from following the board traces it has > >something to do with an i8097 nearby... > > The part number is 23-081E8-00; 23-class part numbers are ROMs. > It seems to me that you wouldn't be violating any copyrights making a > replacement copy for another duly-licensed KFQSA board. > -Rick > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de Sieben auf einen Streich From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 18 01:37:53 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:40 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) Message-ID: <3CBE69C1.2040205@internet1.net> This isn't mine, but I wish it was :-) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017593099 Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 18 07:43:14 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:42 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <001a01c1e6d6$9bfb1dc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Cameron Kaiser >> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, >> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people >> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. >> >> We need a unit or label for this number. > >The neuron. Feh! Too common, everyone has a few many don't use them. First it should be dimensionless, those are weird enough. If not then like DB (DeciBell) which will give it a log or exponential character though I'd be interested in seeing other oddly shaped numbers. A possible name? Calcula with a range of values from microcalcula (watch calc or smaller) to Kilo or maybe megacalcula(Sage! or other beast). Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 18 07:50:50 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: Alternate spot available for RSX/RT11/RSTS/Unix freeware (including decus) References: <200204171739.AA15749@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> <3CBE3DC0.B0C7BF04@compsys.to> Message-ID: <005801c1e6d7$ab02f760$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> In case it wasn't already obvious.... I spent a day or two putting up the complete freeware libraries for RT-11, RSX, and RSTS, including DECUS. This should be all the stuff that is on the CD's that Tim Shoppa has, as well as a bit of other stuff. The initial transfer was pretty quick, just an hour or so. These archives are HUGE. However, the ibiblio.org site has some problems with the content that make transfers kind of a pain, so I had to go back and recheck each file one at a time (in an automated fashion of course) to make sure they all transferred ok, and that what didn't transfer wasn't supposed to - that is what took a long time. You can find them at these URL's: www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSTS www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11 www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11 www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/UNIX-11 However, I would suggest that you bookmark just www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11 though instead, it puts you at a better documentroot to see what all files are available. This archive location is growing rapidly with other things too from the free ibiblio.org site and elsewhere. I may put up the pdp-8 and pdp-10 stuff as well. Might throw up some HP 1000/2000/3000 stuff too as time permits. When I get around to it, they will be at /PDP-8, /PDP-10, and /HP Regards, Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 18 08:29:56 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: Alternate spot available for RSX/RT11/RSTS/Unix freeware (including decus) In-Reply-To: <005801c1e6d7$ab02f760$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jay West wrote: > In case it wasn't already obvious.... > > I spent a day or two putting up the complete freeware libraries for RT-11, > RSX, and RSTS, including DECUS. This should be all the stuff that is on the > CD's that Tim Shoppa has, as well as a bit of other stuff. The initial > transfer was pretty quick, just an hour or so. These archives are HUGE. Groovy!! Thanks, Jay. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 18 08:55:41 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204180125.SAA26108@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002a01c1e6e0$ba5ffc40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The simularity was based on two things. (1) they used the same CPU, and (2) they happened to have the same "expansion bus," not that it mattered. Since their memory maps and logical layout were different, to say nothing of the totally different I/O facilities, different cassette format, different user interface (and user interface hardware), it's pretty hard to see them as similar. The fact that they could use more or less similar 3rd party hardware was more of a coincidence than the result of concerted effort to standardize. I took a look last evening to see whether I could easily lay hands on the AIM stuff I've got, and, while I easily found the hardware, ISTR that there's a manual somewhere ... though I did find a couple of documents, one for a 3rd party memory board and one for an EPROM programmer, of each of which I seem to have at least one. I never got the Assembler or the Basic, since I really haven't ever even powered up the AIMs. I had my own system for which there was already an assembler, and editor, a video display, and other support software, not to mention a much more convenient user interface. One of these days, however ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:25 PM Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > >From: blacklord > > > >Hi Dick, > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > >> thought I did, > >> but, well ... they say the mind's the second thing to go ... can't > >> rememberthe first ... > >> > > > >The AIM is pretty similar to the KIM-1 no ? (I may be mistaken) The > >KIM's ROM dissasembly is pretty freely available, I have a version that > >was suppied with a text file on how to build your own using current > >chips. > > > > -----Snip------ > > Not even close! They both use 6502's. That is about where > the similarities end. The KIM was a hex readout. The AIM > is an alpha/numb readout. The AIM runs a printer in parallel > with the display. The KIM has a small key pad, the AIM had > a full keyboard. > I could pull my chip and disassemble it but someone else > could deal with putting comments on the code. I'll look at > my AIM stuff tonight and see if they had any listing for the > monitor. It seems like they only had entry points but that > would be helpful in figuring it out. > Dwight > > > From jim at jkearney.com Thu Apr 18 09:01:46 2002 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204180125.SAA26108@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <007501c1e6e1$94213980$1701090a@xpace.net> I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. Jim > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > >> thought I did, From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 09:04:33 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <001a01c1e6d6$9bfb1dc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418090433.009828a0@ubanproductions.com> At 08:43 AM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote: >From: Cameron Kaiser >>> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, >>> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people >>> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. >>> >>> We need a unit or label for this number. >> >>The neuron. > >Feh! Too common, everyone has a few many don't use them. > >First it should be dimensionless, those are weird enough. If not then >like DB (DeciBell) which will give it a log or exponential character though >I'd be interested in seeing other oddly shaped numbers. > >A possible name? Calcula with a range of values from microcalcula >(watch calc or smaller) to Kilo or maybe megacalcula(Sage! or other beast). A great idea, but "calcula" has too many syllables. How about "ambit", which means the bounds or limits of a place or district, or a sphere of action, expression, or influence? Then as Allison projected, we could have mega-ambit, micro-ambit, 0.1 ambit, or 10 ambit as necessary. Then we have to come up with the unity ambit (or whatever we choose) machine, just like the VAX 11/780 was the gold standard for a 1 mip machine. I'm sure that this part will be the most difficult given the broad range of this group's tastes. Something between a Babbage engine and an Apple I would be my guess. A good check for the quality of the equation would be to verify that the number increases properly with the various machines over the years... --tom From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 18 09:17:08 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204180125.SAA26108@clulw009.amd.com> <007501c1e6e1$94213980$1701090a@xpace.net> Message-ID: <005d01c1e6e3$b9767f40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'd be happy to scan the content and make it available as a G4 TIF file. Now, I probably have that stuff somewhere as well, but ... Joe Rigdon once said he had an AIM complete with the BASIC and ASM roms. I'd assume that the assembler uses the syntax in which the ROMs are written, which would help. ISTR he wanted to make the ROMs available, but didn't have an EPROM programmer at the time, and didn't know how to dump the ROMs without one. Let me know off-list how we can handle the listings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kearney" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program > Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and > assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. > > Jim > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > >> thought I did, > > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 09:25:54 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Ok, I reset the netinfo database -- now as soon as I can get it to give me a login prompt again instead of kicking me into the 'me' account at boot I'll be in business there, but my NeXT b&w laser printer is somewhat cranky. Having not been used for years, I can see how this might be... Here are it's problems: Paper feed roller doesn't like to work well all the time. I'm certain that this problem comes from the printer setting too long, and making an indentation in the rubber on the roller. Has anyone had success in repairing this kind of thing? The printouts have black in the wrong places sometimes; fused, but -- well, basically it looks like a bad photocopy :) Sometimes the misplaced ink will have an imprint from another part of the same page, or from the previous page. There are also "splotches" of white here and there in the good printouts where there should be some toner. I imagine something may be dirty, but not knowing a lot about laser printers (aside from keep away from the fuser when it's operating...), I don't' know where to start looking, nor would I necessarily know how to clean things up if I found the right spot. Any ideas? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 01:32:40 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <001a01c1e6d6$9bfb1dc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Allison wrote: > From: Cameron Kaiser > >> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > >> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > >> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > >> > >> We need a unit or label for this number. > > > >The neuron. > > Feh! Too common, everyone has a few many don't use them. > > First it should be dimensionless, those are weird enough. If not then > like DB (DeciBell) which will give it a log or exponential character though > I'd be interested in seeing other oddly shaped numbers. > > A possible name? Calcula with a range of values from microcalcula > (watch calc or smaller) to Kilo or maybe megacalcula(Sage! or other beast). How about calling it a Babbage? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 09:33:50 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: VAX-11/785 available, act immediately Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418093350.00a73a10@ubanproductions.com> At 09:55 AM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Johnny Billquist writes: > >> > I had no profit motive and am in no way associated with the originator >> > of the message I forwarded. (*He* undoubtedly expects to make a modest >> > profit as finder of the equipment.) >> >> Okay. So this was a probing for business. Then it also was spam. Here is my 2 cents. The original post seems pretty innocuous to me and if you read it closely, you would have figured out that the poster and the person who had the machine were two different people. The poster (in my opinion) was just trying to share a find with someone who might be interested in saving a classic from the scrap mill. I have dealt with the person/company who was making the offer to save the machine for a profit, and yes that is what companies do. This guy is paid to make money for his company. I had an email conversation with him and it would appear that they bought some of the parts from the machine for resale to their customers and this guy put some enough extra thought into it to think that there is this group of crazy collectors our there that might be interested in the machine. Yes he is probably thinking from a profit point of view, but at least he is thinking of us. There are so many of these guys that don't think of us and end up destroying old machines which would make great projects for someone on this group, that it make me ill. Further, in my mind, the endless number of worthless flaming messages which were spawned by a list members attempt at providing a pointer to an available machine is *far* worse than an infrequent piece of spam, which we ought to just ignore. Can't we all just enjoy our hobby instead of ragging on each other? --tom From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 01:36:09 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020418090433.009828a0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > Then we have to come up with the unity ambit (or whatever we choose) > machine, just like the VAX 11/780 was the gold standard for a 1 mip > machine. I'm sure that this part will be the most difficult given the > broad range of this group's tastes. Something between a Babbage engine > and an Apple I would be my guess. A good check for the quality of the > equation would be to verify that the number increases properly with the > various machines over the years... I'm thinking good benchmark machines might be either the PDP-1 or IBM 1130 as they bridge the gap in my mind between mainframes and "personal computers". Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 18 09:37:15 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac References: <3.0.5.32.20020418090433.009828a0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <047401c1e6e6$8951f1c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > How about "ambit", which Keep this as a measure of storage Density (itself important), and find a more verblike term for calculations, which are a form of action. Ambit would then be perfect (ambits ~= bits per cubit or whatever) as a second measure term. > Then we have to come up with the unity ambit (or whatever we > choose) machine, I like 1 calculation per second here, esp for a logarithmic scale, so as to keep all machines in the positive range. KIPS/KOPS was a popular measure before MIPS. John A. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Apr 18 09:41:01 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A4@MAIL10> If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM manuals as well as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:17 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays I'd be happy to scan the content and make it available as a G4 TIF file. Now, I probably have that stuff somewhere as well, but ... Joe Rigdon once said he had an AIM complete with the BASIC and ASM roms. I'd assume that the assembler uses the syntax in which the ROMs are written, which would help. ISTR he wanted to make the ROMs available, but didn't have an EPROM programmer at the time, and didn't know how to dump the ROMs without one. Let me know off-list how we can handle the listings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kearney" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program > Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and > assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. > > Jim > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > >> thought I did, > > > > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 17 15:22:22 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:31:12 CDT." Message-ID: <200204172022.VAA25548@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tothwolf said: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Basically, where are the good boatanchor related mailing lists and > > > resources at? I'm looking for resources on restoration and building home > > > brew tube based gear. > > > > The best baotamchors list is boatanchors@theporch.com. Very low noise, > > with basically all of the gurus of the BA crowd. > I presume you're familiar with rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors ;-) > > I wasn't able to find out all that much about the 'CS', other than it > seems to have been made between 1945 and 1946. Raymond S. Moore's book agrees with the dates and says it's the same as the NC-2-40C but with frequencies 0.2 to 0.4 and 1 to 30 MHz instead of 0.49 to 30 MHz. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 18 09:51:47 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204180125.SAA26108@clulw009.amd.com> <007501c1e6e1$94213980$1701090a@xpace.net> Message-ID: <001501c1e6e8$90f597e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It turns out that Rich Cini has the ROM listings in PDF format on his website http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm along with the manuals, etc. That'll save some effort, since he's already done the work. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kearney" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program > Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and > assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. > > Jim > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > >> thought I did, > > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 18 09:54:04 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <001a01c1e6d6$9bfb1dc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CBEFA2C.2639.1D4328C1@localhost> > > >> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > > >> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > > >> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > > >> We need a unit or label for this number. > > >The neuron. > > Feh! Too common, everyone has a few many don't use them. > > First it should be dimensionless, those are weird enough. If not then > > like DB (DeciBell) which will give it a log or exponential character though > > I'd be interested in seeing other oddly shaped numbers. > > A possible name? Calcula with a range of values from microcalcula > > (watch calc or smaller) to Kilo or maybe megacalcula(Sage! or other beast). > How about calling it a Babbage? Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is German(*), but rather because there is still no basic or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give a prety good symbol. There is already the Bq (Bequerel), so Babbage wouldn't be so nicht - the same is true for Calcula (C -> Celsius) and Ambit (A -> Ampere). If this has to be successful we have to fit it into the SI system :) Gruss H. (*) Ok, it's just because of that, but I got some excuses -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 18 09:59:12 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr Message-ID: <200204181459.HAA28218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) I really want to get this working! :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 18 10:00:49 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship References: Message-ID: <011801c1e6e9$d4106fe0$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC required... "My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" Jay West From LFessen106 at aol.com Thu Apr 18 10:07:57 2002 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <47.1b8a3a63.29f03b4d@aol.com> In a message dated 4/18/02 11:05:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: > > > > >> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets > finalized, > > > >> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that > people > > > >> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically > computed. > > > >> We need a unit or label for this number. > > > >The neuron. > > > Feh! Too common, everyone has a few many don't use them. > > > > First it should be dimensionless, those are weird enough. If not then > > > like DB (DeciBell) which will give it a log or exponential character > though > > > I'd be interested in seeing other oddly shaped numbers. > > > > A possible name? Calcula with a range of values from microcalcula > > > (watch calc or smaller) to Kilo or maybe megacalcula(Sage! or other > beast). > > > Nahh, how about the bogacool? -Linc. In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/fa60ce75/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 18 10:20:58 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Hans Franke >> How about calling it a Babbage? An idea! >Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is >German(*), but rather because there is still no basic >or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give It's sufficiently obscure and I like it. Lessee a 400milliZuse system... Yep rolls on the tongue nicely and sounds oh so technical. >If this has to be successful we have to fit it into >the SI system :) Go with it and we also need a "standard". Now combine that with TCP/IP over morse and we have something. Allison From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Apr 18 09:41:01 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:44 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A4@MAIL10> If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM manuals as well as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:17 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays I'd be happy to scan the content and make it available as a G4 TIF file. Now, I probably have that stuff somewhere as well, but ... Joe Rigdon once said he had an AIM complete with the BASIC and ASM roms. I'd assume that the assembler uses the syntax in which the ROMs are written, which would help. ISTR he wanted to make the ROMs available, but didn't have an EPROM programmer at the time, and didn't know how to dump the ROMs without one. Let me know off-list how we can handle the listings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Kearney" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program > Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and > assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. > > Jim > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > >> thought I did, > > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 10:27:20 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20020418090433.009828a0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418102720.007b9100@ubanproductions.com> >I'm thinking good benchmark machines might be either the PDP-1 or IBM 1130 >as they bridge the gap in my mind between mainframes and "personal >computers". Being primarily a DEC collector, I would choose the PDP-1 out of these two, but one of the CDC line, such as the 6600, might be of interest as well, even though it is not much of a "bridge"... --tom From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 10:33:50 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer (Christopher Smith) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15550.59230.191588.365642@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 18, Christopher Smith wrote: > I'm certain that this problem comes from the printer setting > too long, and making an indentation in the rubber on the > roller. Has anyone had success in repairing this kind of > thing? The pickup roller is supposed to have a flat spot in it...if that's what you're noticing, it's normal. > The printouts have black in the wrong places sometimes; > fused, but -- well, basically it looks like a bad photocopy :) > Sometimes the misplaced ink will have an imprint from another > part of the same page, or from the previous page. > > There are also "splotches" of white here and there in the > good printouts where there should be some toner. > > I imagine something may be dirty, but not knowing a lot about > laser printers (aside from keep away from the fuser when it's > operating...), I don't' know where to start looking, nor would > I necessarily know how to clean things up if I found the right > spot. CX and SX engines sometimes have problems with crap collecting on the corona wires...especially the transfer corona underneath the paper path. Look for a trough about 0.5" wide with a hair-thin wire running through the middle of it, possibly shielded with a sparse wrapping of a plastic thread that looks like fishing line. Clean this VERY carefully by rubbing an alcohol-saturated cotton swap back and forth over it. That might help a bit. If not, it may be the drum precharge corona wire, which is inside the toner cartridge. There should be a little green plastic tool with a strangely-shaped felt tip stuck into a clip inside the printer. Stick this into the transfer corona wire access slot on the toner cartridge and run it back and forth. It's self-aligning due to the shape of the green plastic tool and grooves in the toner cartridge...there's only one place and direction in which it'll fit correctly. (sorry for the lack of detail here, this is difficult to describe textually) Give that a shot and see how things clean up. If that doesn't help, contact me and I'll see if I can dig up anything else from my dusty memories Canon CX and SX print engine repair training back in 1987. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 10:33:52 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac References: <001a01c1e6d6$9bfb1dc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CBEE760.34CA6985@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > From: Cameron Kaiser > >> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > >> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > >> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. 1) I can't get on the site. 2) Lets have 3 ratings 1) Base system 2) Typical system 3) Max system. 3) I think we also need generation classes as a tube cpu out performs a LOW POWER CMOS chip set like the 6100 (PDP-8). > possible name? Calcula with a range of values from microcalcula > (watch calc or smaller) to Kilo or maybe megacalcula(Sage! or other beast). The henge ( as from stone-henge) ? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 10:37:41 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: <47.1b8a3a63.29f03b4d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CBEE845.BEBFA4AC@jetnet.ab.ca> LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit Save that for computers like HAL-9000, Deep thought, or The Matrix. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 10:37:42 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay West [mailto:jwest@classiccmp.org] > I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC > required... > "My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" What about immersion cooling? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 10:42:35 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: VAX-11/785 available, act immediately In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020418093350.00a73a10@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418104235.008b4980@ubanproductions.com> Ops, I accidently crossed the streams, this was meant for the info-pdp11@village.org list... --tom At 09:33 AM 4/18/02 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:55 AM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Johnny Billquist writes: >> >>> > I had no profit motive and am in no way associated with the originator >>> > of the message I forwarded. (*He* undoubtedly expects to make a modest >>> > profit as finder of the equipment.) >>> >>> Okay. So this was a probing for business. Then it also was spam. > >Here is my 2 cents. > >The original post seems pretty innocuous to me and if you read it closely, >you would have figured out that the poster and the person who had the machine >were two different people. > >The poster (in my opinion) was just trying to share a find with someone who >might be interested in saving a classic from the scrap mill. > >I have dealt with the person/company who was making the offer to save the >machine for a profit, and yes that is what companies do. This guy is paid >to make money for his company. I had an email conversation with him and it >would appear that they bought some of the parts from the machine for resale >to their customers and this guy put some enough extra thought into it to >think that there is this group of crazy collectors our there that might be >interested in the machine. Yes he is probably thinking from a profit point >of view, but at least he is thinking of us. There are so many of these guys >that don't think of us and end up destroying old machines which would make >great projects for someone on this group, that it make me ill. > >Further, in my mind, the endless number of worthless flaming messages which >were spawned by a list members attempt at providing a pointer to an available >machine is *far* worse than an infrequent piece of spam, which we ought to >just ignore. > >Can't we all just enjoy our hobby instead of ragging on each other? > >--tom > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 10:49:51 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship References: <011801c1e6e9$d4106fe0$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CBEEB1F.D6E24FB1@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > > I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC required... > > "My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" Well that may not true any more for OLD computers. Remember now you can get cooling units that fit on the CPU of modern machines. Anyway can somebody with access to BYTE look up a benchmark they had many years ago (1980's???) that had word size, opcode length and memory speed all related together. They gave the PDP-8 as a example and it did rather well. That would also be a good classic benchmark too. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 10:51:37 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> -----Original Message----- From: LFessen106@aol.com [mailto:LFessen106@aol.com] > Nahh, how about the bogacool? Actually, how about we call it a "metric ton," which could be written in Britain as "metric tonne..." *duck* Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From hansp at aconit.org Thu Apr 18 11:00:27 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204180125.SAA26108@clulw009.amd.com> <007501c1e6e1$94213980$1701090a@xpace.net> <001501c1e6e8$90f597e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CBEED9B.1080207@aconit.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > It turns out that Rich Cini has the ROM listings in PDF format on his website > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm along with the > manuals, etc. That'll save some effort, since he's already done the work. I saw this a few days ago in browsing but forgot about it til today. You beat me by about an hour! Anyone want to volounteer to get the monitor source into ascii? If we all chip in we would only have to do a page or four each. Needs coordination though - I'd be willing to do that. -- hbp From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 11:07:39 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Allison wrote: > >> How about calling it a Babbage? > > An idea! > > >Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is > >German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > >or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > It's sufficiently obscure and I like it. Lessee a 400milliZuse > system... Yep rolls on the tongue nicely and sounds oh > so technical. Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 11:10:00 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020418102720.007b9100@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > >I'm thinking good benchmark machines might be either the PDP-1 or IBM 1130 > >as they bridge the gap in my mind between mainframes and "personal > >computers". > > Being primarily a DEC collector, I would choose the PDP-1 out of these two, > but one of the CDC line, such as the 6600, might be of interest as well, even > though it is not much of a "bridge"... The 6600 could be made into a bridge. There's certainly enough metal there. Peace... Sridhar From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 11:14:01 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A4@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20020418161402.55325.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Cini, Richard" wrote: > If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM manuals as > well > as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm Scans, yes. I'm hoping to start from more than scratch. I have 6502 assemblers/disassemblers, but I'm really hoping for monitor listings in ASCII, not pixels. I don't mind writing a perl filter to strip non-essentials from listings and convert them back to recompilable source. I'm trying to minimize typing and typos. BTW, I could not get into your site this morning from three different connections. Some kind of ISP problem? $ /usr/sbin/traceroute highgate.comm.sfu.ca traceroute to highgate.comm.sfu.ca (142.58.173.15), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 janus (205.133.91.254) 2.487 ms 2.075 ms 2.026 ms 2 cvl232001.columbus.rr.com (204.210.232.1) 33.215 ms 65.436 ms 39.978 ms 3 fas0-0.cnvloh1-ubr1.columbus.rr.com (24.95.82.134) 41.268 ms 48.987 ms 47.515 ms 4 srp4-0.clmboh1-rtr2.columbus.rr.com (24.95.81.143) 68.036 ms 50.435 ms 60.058 ms 5 srp0-0.clmboh1-rtr4.columbus.rr.com (24.95.81.230) 74.795 ms 40.439 ms 78.983 ms 6 pop2-col-P4-2.atdn.net (66.185.147.9) 49.283 ms 17.438 ms 34.510 ms 7 bb2-col-P5-0.atdn.net (66.185.140.73) 62.950 ms 12.092 ms 49.241 ms 8 bb2-ash-P14-3.atdn.net (66.185.152.129) 74.302 ms 82.198 ms 78.244 ms 9 pop2-ash-P1-0.atdn.net (66.185.139.214) 78.599 ms 43.649 ms 66.683 ms 10 if-10-0.core1.Ashburn.teleglobe.net (63.243.149.97) 71.998 ms 73.213 ms 55.521 ms 11 if-2-3-0-0.mcore1.Washington2.Teleglobe.net (207.45.223.1) 91.042 ms 50.885 ms 87.147 ms 12 if-0-1-0-0.mcore2.Washington2.Teleglobe.net (66.110.52.66) 52.987 ms 68.136 ms 90.637 ms 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * * * 16 * * * __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 18 11:14:29 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: <15550.59230.191588.365642@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <15550.59230.191588.365642@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >On April 18, Christopher Smith wrote: >> I'm certain that this problem comes from the printer setting >> too long, and making an indentation in the rubber on the >> roller. Has anyone had success in repairing this kind of >> thing? > > The pickup roller is supposed to have a flat spot in it...if that's >what you're noticing, it's normal. Over time the pickup roller on these printers gets soft and leaves black marks on the paper, as well as not completely feeding the paper. Randy at ChannelU still sells repair kits for these printers (new roller, ejection gear and ozone filter). I think he charged me $20 for the three parts. Worn/broken ejection gears are almost as common a problem on these pritners as the bad roller. He also has detailed instructions on his website for installing them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 11:15:41 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays In-Reply-To: <3CBEED9B.1080207@aconit.org> Message-ID: <20020418161541.30491.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans B Pufal wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > It turns out that Rich Cini has the ROM listings in PDF format on his > > website > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm along with > > the manuals, etc. That'll save some effort, since he's already done > > the work. > > Anyone want to volounteer to get the monitor source into ascii? If we > all chip in we would only have to do a page or four each. Needs > coordination though - I'd be willing to do that. I don't mind helping. I'm just glad to not have to do it all. Put me down for a share of the effort or two. As I just posted, I can't get in at the moment, so I'll let you know when you can hand out an assignment. Thanks for coordinating. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 11:21:29 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020418162129.5928.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > > found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! > > Quite the score! I have Windows 2.0. I've got an old copy of Windows 1.0 that I used as a trade-in for an old copy of OS/2. It's 1.03 AFAIK. Never loaded it. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 18 11:23:57 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Workstation monitor question In-Reply-To: <3CBEE845.BEBFA4AC@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <47.1b8a3a63.29f03b4d@aol.com> <3CBEE845.BEBFA4AC@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I picked up a SGI monitor, model# HL7965KW-SG, for use with my Indigo2. It's an older SGI monitor, made in 1992, and it will do 1280 x 1024. The interesting thing is that it has dual 13w3 connectors on the rear, one for video-in and one for video-out. What is the intended use for the video-out connector? Boy, is this thing a beast too..at 19" it's larger and heavier than my NeXT N4001. The thing is huge. It seems to work well enough though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Apr 18 11:32:11 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Need Shugart 860-1 info Message-ID: <105.1455b7a8.29f04f0b@aol.com> Does anyone know if the HH 8" floppy Shugart 860-1 is a single or double sided drive? Paxton Astoria, OR From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Apr 18 11:35:32 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Zenith Dual 8" drive Message-ID: <2b.25cb7328.29f04fd4@aol.com> I have a Zenith 8" dual disk drive unit that I need to sell so. It has two Shugart 860-1s in it. Anyone interested before it gets to eBay. Please contact me at whoagiii@aol.com if interested Paxton Astoria, OR From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 11:38:55 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418113855.00a958f0@ubanproductions.com> >Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. Zuse works for me too... --tom From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 11:41:44 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784450@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. Can we make it sufficiently small that it might extend to TerraZuse? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From hansp at aconit.org Thu Apr 18 11:49:13 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor source reconstruction References: <20020418161541.30491.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CBEF909.1030702@aconit.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't mind helping. I'm just glad to not have to do it all. > Put me down for a share of the effort or two. As I just posted, I can't > get in at the moment, so I'll let you know when you can hand out an > assignment. Great that makes two so far (me and thee) any one else? I've started ont he first PDF file, done the first 5 pages.... -- hbp From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 18 12:01:01 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <200204181701.KAA26517@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Rich and All I found a list book as well in my pile but I'm glad someone else has it up on the net. I was concerned about copying it because of the weak binding. Looking at the other AIM-65 stuff I have, I found ROMs for BASIC, Forth and PASCAL. I have manuals for the BASIC and Forth is Forth so doesn't need a manual but I have no manual for the PASCAL. I can make dumps of these ROM's if there is interest. Dwight >From: "Cini, Richard" > >If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM manuals as well >as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. > >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm > >Rich > >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 12:02:13 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Need Shugart 860-1 info In-Reply-To: <105.1455b7a8.29f04f0b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418120213.00a04480@ubanproductions.com> According to: http://www.cadigital.com/flopdriv.htm it is SA860-1 8" Double Sided DD, 1/2 HT, 1.6M --tom At 12:32 PM 4/18/02 EDT, you wrote: >Does anyone know if the HH 8" floppy Shugart 860-1 is a single or double >sided drive? > >Paxton >Astoria, OR > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 18 12:04:29 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A4@MAIL10> Message-ID: <002001c1e6fb$1aae60e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You wouldn't happen to have a machine-readable (non-PDF) just text file of the monitor listing, whould you? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:41 AM Subject: RE: AIM-65 displays > If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM manuals as well > as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:17 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > > > I'd be happy to scan the content and make it available as a G4 TIF file. > Now, > I probably have that stuff somewhere as well, but ... > > Joe Rigdon once said he had an AIM complete with the BASIC and ASM roms. > I'd > assume that the assembler uses the syntax in which the ROMs are written, > which > would help. ISTR he wanted to make the ROMs available, but didn't have an > EPROM programmer at the time, and didn't know how to dump the ROMs without > one. > > Let me know off-list how we can handle the listings. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Kearney" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:01 AM > Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > > > > I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program > > Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and > > assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. > > > > Jim > > > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > > >> thought I did, > > > > > > > > > > From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 18 12:08:21 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <200204181708.KAA26555@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hans B Pufal" > >Richard Erlacher wrote: >> It turns out that Rich Cini has the ROM listings in PDF format on his website >> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm along with the >> manuals, etc. That'll save some effort, since he's already done the work. > >I saw this a few days ago in browsing but forgot about it til today. You >beat me by about an hour! > >Anyone want to volounteer to get the monitor source into ascii? If we >all chip in we would only have to do a page or four each. Needs >coordination though - I'd be willing to do that. > > -- hbp > > Hi I have dibbs on page 56 ( I'm a little lazy ). Dwight From whdawson at localisps.net Thu Apr 18 12:12:12 2002 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A4@MAIL10> Message-ID: Rich Cini once said:- -> If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM -> manuals as well as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. -> -> http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm Well, maybe not all of the ROM dumps though. d8^) These seem to be missing: File name Contents Part # Other information ------------ ---------- -------- -------------------------------- 4TH@Z-25.AIM FORTH V1.3 R32J2-11 1 of 2, Rockwell ROM, date code 8119, sticker on underside, similar to Rockwell s/n stickers, reads G02228 4TH@Z-26.AIM FORTH V1.3 R32J1-11 2 of 2, Rockwell ROM, date code 8119, sticker on underside, similar to Rockwell s/n stickers, reads G02228 PL65@Z25.AIM PL/65 V1.0 not avail. 1 of 2, Motorola EPROM MCM2532L, date code 8023 PL65@Z26.AIM PL/65 V1.0 not avail. 2 of 2, Motorola EPROM MCM2532L, date code 8108 MATHPACK.AIM MATH PACK not avail. 1 of 1, Mororola EPROM MCM2532L, date code 8024, label also has D000 on it, starting address or Z2x socket on AIM-65 board. These can be downloaded as one file, 14.2KB (14,579 bytes) at: http://www.swtpc.com/download/aimroms.zip Enjoy. Rich, feel free to add these to your website. Bill P.S. to Michael H. : Your changes to http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ will be uploaded soon. From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 12:14:16 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784450@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. > > Can we make it sufficiently small that it might extend to TerraZuse? Gigazuse is now one of my favorite words. Right up there with Teraelectronvolts. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 18 12:16:44 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Need Shugart 860-1 info References: <105.1455b7a8.29f04f0b@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c1e6fc$d0d128c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You should be able to tell from looking at it. It should be quite obvious. If it has two heads, one on each side, or if it has two head cables that arrive at the logic board, it's two-sided, otherwise ... I've got the OEM and service manuals somewhere, but can't lay hands on 'em right now. I'd guess, from the even number and '-1' that it's probably single-sided, but these are pretty late-model drives, so that may not be applicable. If you don't want to open the box, then you could put in a two-sided diskette. If it doesn't go "ready" then it's single-sided, as it doesn't have the sensor for "seeing" the hole in a two-sided diskette, which is in a different location than the one for single-sided diskettes. You can do this from just the cable, since the cable is driven with OC drivers. If the ready signal goes low at 6 hz, then it sees the indicator. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:32 AM Subject: Need Shugart 860-1 info > Does anyone know if the HH 8" floppy Shugart 860-1 is a single or double > sided drive? > > Paxton > Astoria, OR > > From red at bears.org Thu Apr 18 12:16:14 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Ok, I reset the netinfo database -- now as soon as I can > get it to give me a login prompt again instead of kicking > me into the 'me' account at boot I'll be in business there, All you have to do is assign a password to the 'me' account. Click the padlock in 'Preferences.app' (the clock in the dock). Alternately, if you only want the login dialog once, you can hold down both mouse buttons during logout. ok r. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 12:18:30 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784450@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020418171830.71652.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > > > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. > > Can we make it sufficiently small that it might extend to TerraZuse? PettaZuse? Attozuse? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 12:19:28 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit References: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> <3.0.5.32.20020418113855.00a958f0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3CBF0020.EE770039@jetnet.ab.ca> Zuse works for me too... But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 12:21:54 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020418172154.36660.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jay West [mailto:jwest@classiccmp.org] > > > I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC > > required... > > > "My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" > > What about immersion cooling? Flourinert or Baby Oil? Liquid Nitrogen? "My computer sticks to your tongue better than yours..." -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 12:24:10 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays In-Reply-To: <200204181708.KAA26555@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20020418172410.40921.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >Anyone want to volounteer to get the monitor source into ascii? > > Hi > I have dibbs on page 56 ( I'm a little lazy ). > Dwight "This page intentionally left blank"? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 04:25:48 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CBEFA2C.2639.1D4328C1@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > How about calling it a Babbage? > > Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is > German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > a prety good symbol. There is already the Bq (Bequerel), > so Babbage wouldn't be so nicht - the same is true for > Calcula (C -> Celsius) and Ambit (A -> Ampere). Yes, of course, Zuse, since Germans are the greatest! I was going to suggest Zuse but then I relaized how much of a big head that would give you, and you already have trouble balancing what you have on your shoulders as it is :) Zuse would be a good unit of measure, but nobody in America knows how to pronounce it properly, so it would only serve to further demonstrate how ignorant most of us are. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 04:27:55 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CBEE760.34CA6985@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Allison wrote: > > I wrote this (not Cameron): > > >> If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, > > >> I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people > > >> can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > > 1) I can't get on the site. Why not? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 04:29:46 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Allison wrote: > > > >> How about calling it a Babbage? > > > > An idea! > > > > >Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is > > >German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > > >or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > > > It's sufficiently obscure and I like it. Lessee a 400milliZuse > > system... Yep rolls on the tongue nicely and sounds oh > > so technical. > > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. Are you pronouncing it correctly, i.e. "tsoo-zeh"? Or in the Greek "Zeus" fashion? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From classiccmp at mail.vintage-computer.com Thu Apr 18 12:24:19 2002 From: classiccmp at mail.vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If the printer you have is the NeXT 400 dpi unit (I don't have the model number in front of me) then I picked up several from the gentleman who was selling them cheap in the Bay Area. If you need one for spares or as a replacement I'll be happy to sell it for what I paid for it ($15) plus shipping. The ones I have are in excellent (untested) shape with some looking almost new. . . Just email me off list if you're interested. Erik On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:14:29 -0400 Jeff Hellige wrote: > >On April 18, Christopher Smith wrote: > >> I'm certain that this problem comes from the printer > setting > >> too long, and making an indentation in the rubber on > the > >> roller. Has anyone had success in repairing this > kind of > >> thing? > > > > The pickup roller is supposed to have a flat spot in > it...if that's > >what you're noticing, it's normal. > > Over time the pickup roller on these printers gets soft > and > leaves black marks on the paper, as well as not > completely feeding > the paper. Randy at ChannelU still sells repair kits for > these > printers (new roller, ejection gear and ozone filter). I > think he > charged me $20 for the three parts. Worn/broken ejection > gears are > almost as common a problem on these pritners as the bad > roller. He > also has detailed instructions on his website for > installing them. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 > FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Apr 18 12:30:30 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A7@MAIL10> Dick: No, I don't have a machine-readable version of the listing. I scanned the pages directly to PDF (using Acrobar Writer) but I never got around to taking those scans and OCRing them to a text file (it was on the RSN list). I did the PC BIOSes and the VIC Kernal ROM, The KIMs were done by others. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:04 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays You wouldn't happen to have a machine-readable (non-PDF) just text file of the monitor listing, whould you? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:41 AM Subject: RE: AIM-65 displays > If you look on my Web site, I have scans of all of the AIM manuals as well > as the monitor listing, schematics and ROM dumps. > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/my_docs.htm > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:17 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > > > I'd be happy to scan the content and make it available as a G4 TIF file. > Now, > I probably have that stuff somewhere as well, but ... > > Joe Rigdon once said he had an AIM complete with the BASIC and ASM roms. > I'd > assume that the assembler uses the syntax in which the ROMs are written, > which > would help. ISTR he wanted to make the ROMs available, but didn't have an > EPROM programmer at the time, and didn't know how to dump the ROMs without > one. > > Let me know off-list how we can handle the listings. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Kearney" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:01 AM > Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > > > > I have the listings. It's a small book called "AIM 65 Monitor Program > > Listing", and includes all the I/O routines, the editor and > > assembler/disassembler. If you don't have it, I could lend it to you. > > > > Jim > > > > > >> I'll have a look to see whether I have any ROM listings. I > > > >> thought I did, > > > > > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 12:32:45 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > >> We need a unit or label for this number. > How about calling it a Babbage? I like it, except, ... Intrinsically, a real Babbage engine would presumably have a rating of ONE Babbage. Does ANYONE here have anything that would rate higher than one? From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 12:33:17 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020418173317.259.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > In the spirit of this "pecker contest" (as a former boss of mine would > > call it), let me suggest the "ultimate" metric for bragging rights... > > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. > > Should that read cubicfoot * BTU/Hr * pounds * (amps/KByte) * MIPS ? Mathematically, yes. I was attempting to write an English decription. > Should be WATTs rather than AMPs, since the power consumption is the key > issue, not the current. Sure. I thought about that, but I was already down the page and didn't want to go back and re-do it. Guess I should have. > In the interest of international relations, should we switch to KG > instead of pounds? Machts Nichts to me. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 18 12:38:34 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF0020.EE770039@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CBF20BA.18258.1DD9C4F8@localhost> Date sent: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:19:28 -0600 From: Ben Franchuk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: The Unit Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Zuse works for me too... > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? Well, Zuse is aa Unit for m^2 * kg * w ------------ bit * IPS So a for example the Zuse 1 (100% mechanical, binary floating point) ends up somewhere near 55 Z, while a modern PC (Lets take the dual PIII 700 MHz with 384 MB I'm using right now) gets around 4,8*10^-14 Z or 48 fZ (Femtozuse) I think this gives a good evaluation of the geek value. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 18 10:07:45 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Alternate spot available for RSX/RT11/RSTS/Unix freeware (including decus) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:50:50 CDT." <005801c1e6d7$ab02f760$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200204181507.QAA01286@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Jay West" said: > I spent a day or two putting up the complete freeware libraries for RT-11, > RSX, and RSTS, including DECUS. This should be all the stuff that is on the > CD's that Tim Shoppa has, as well as a bit of other stuff. Terrific! I've just got simh 2.9.0 to compile and (10 minutes ago...) seen RT-11 boot for the first time, so I could use some more stuff... thanks... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 12:45:02 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020418174502.41225.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > How about calling it a Babbage? > > > > Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. > > Zuse would be a good unit of measure, but nobody in America knows how to > pronounce it properly, so it would only serve to further demonstrate how > ignorant most of us are. While I happen to be less ignorant than most Americans (I already knew how to say "Zuse"), in principle I agree. If you didn't know, there's no way to know. How about a button on "The Unit" calculator that speaks the value, including the unit name on the end. SAM on the C-64 or the Amiga's narrator.device could provide the audio - all that is required is a way to digitize it on request and pipe it out. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 12:52:08 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > >> How about calling it a Babbage? > > > > > > An idea! > > > > > > >Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is > > > >German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > > > >or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > > > > > It's sufficiently obscure and I like it. Lessee a 400milliZuse > > > system... Yep rolls on the tongue nicely and sounds oh > > > so technical. > > > > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. > > Are you pronouncing it correctly, i.e. "tsoo-zeh"? Or in the Greek "Zeus" > fashion? I'm a fluent German speaker. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 12:54:13 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. Wow! a mchine that is a billion (or would that be 2^30?) times as cool as Zuse's machine?? For that, I'd sit in the dark in a storage locker! From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 18 12:55:43 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <200204181755.KAA26671@clulw009.amd.com> >Hi > I have dibbs on page 56 ( I'm a little lazy ). >Dwight > > > There, that wasn't so bad ;) Dwight I/O SUBROUTINES PA00-J001A......PAGE 0056 LINE # LOC CODE LINE 2764 F2BB 4C 8B F2 JMP ROUT1 ;RESTORES REGS 2765 F2BE EA NOP 2766 F2BF EA 2768 F2C0 ;SET SPEED FROM NORMAL TO 3 TIMES NORMAL 2769 F2C0 AD 08 A4 SETSPD LDA TSPEED ;SPEED FLG 2770 F2C3 6A ROR A ;NORMAL OR 3* NORM 2771 F2C4 A0 0C LDA #12 2772 F2C6 90 02 BCC SETSP1 2773 F2C8 A9 04 LDA #4 2774 F2CA 8D 0A A4 SETSP1 STA NPUL 2775 F2CD A9 12 LDA #18 2776 F2CF 90 02 BCC SETSP2 2777 F2D1 A9 06 LDA #6 2778 F2D3 8D 0C A4 SETSP2 STA TIMG+1 2779 F2D6 60 RTS 2780 F2D7 .FILE A3/2 From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 12:55:30 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <20020418171830.71652.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > > > > > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. > > > > Can we make it sufficiently small that it might extend to TerraZuse? > > PettaZuse? Attozuse? An Attozuse would be very, very small. Almost infinitessimal. A Petazuse would be quite large. The largest one I know of would be a Yottazuse. Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 18 13:16:50 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CBF29B2.14916.1DFCCAE9@localhost> Jeks ... I just killed a real long description of what could be the formula .... again... > >Well, I'd rather go for Zuse. Not only because he is > >German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > >or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > It's sufficiently obscure and I like it. Lessee a 400milliZuse > system... Yep rolls on the tongue nicely and sounds oh > so technical. We need some Hollywood Germans to pronounce it ... > >If this has to be successful we have to fit it into > >the SI system :) > Go with it and we also need a "standard". Ok, I read suggestions for a) size b) weight c) power consumption d) memory e) processing speed a) Size of course size - we all agree her size does matter, and bigger is better - isn't it ? Now, size is a measured in meters, we just have to decide if we go for area (m^2) or volume (m^3). I'd rather like to see area area included. Tree reasons: first (most important to me), area numbers are usualy larger than volume numbers for for similar machines. Second, volume would give tall systems and advantage over systems with a large footprint. Third by using just the 2d footprint we can cover odd shaped machines very easy. And a PET should get a higher value of Z than any tower-PC :) b) weight - no problem her - more is better. BTW, the kg is the only unit where the base unit inkludes a prefix ... c) power consuption - Yea, raise my power bill and switch of the neighborhood... Unit is Watts (w). I would suggest to use the amount of input power, so including all losses in Power supplies atc, which belong directly to the system - and if you happen to have an integrated steam engine to drive your mechanical computer, the wats have to be calculated from the amount of coal needed to run the engine ... d) Memory. Most would go for bytes, or kilobytes, but first, only units without a prefix are to be used, and second, bytes are not realy applicable to all machines. for example the early Zuse machines had only a storage for floating point numbers ... I think bit may be an apropriate number. The backside of this is that the numbers get pretty soon very high - and the Z number quite low. To be counted is all external Memory. I'd exclude registers etc. Only real main memory. If there is no memory at all, the number 1 is to be used (well, sounds odd, I can't come up with a machine totaly without memory). High numbers are bad. e) processing speed - lower is better The only measurement I know for that would be IPS (instructions per second). Defined as whole instructions to be executed within a second. Since this number is somewhat fuzzy on most machines, we may have different Z numbers. One can use a peek IPS rate, a average IPS, a median IPS or a maximum IPS rate Maximum: If the machine is only executing its fastest operation, Peek: something like from a linpak Average: like taken from an analyzer which traces the number of instructions for some time over typical aplication or calculated by an average instruction mix. median: just the average over all instruction timeings. Taking the above arguments we can come up with a formula like: m^2 * kg * w ------------ bits * IPS So if we have a machine, lets say like a 4k PET, we get the following numbers (rough estimations, I don't have one right here Area: 45x50 cm = 0,225 m^3 Weight: 17,5 kg Power: 105W Bits: 32768 IPS: 250 kips (assumption) Result: 50,47 nZ (Nanozuse) or a Kim 1 Area: 20x40 cm = 0,08 m^3 Weight: 1,5 kg (including power supply Power: 15W Bits: 9120 IPS: 250 kips (as above) Result: 0,79 nZ Well, the machine is a lightwight baby with the same processing power than the PET .. only the large footprint helps I think machines like a Northstar (or most S100 boxes) have a big advantage ... lage footprint, superheavy powersups and not to much processorpower ... I like it. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Thu Apr 18 13:19:06 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: Workstation monitor question References: <47.1b8a3a63.29f03b4d@aol.com> <3CBEE845.BEBFA4AC@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CBF0E19.BFE94100@Vishay.com> Jeff, the "video out" connector on your monitor is most probably meant to feed a projection device for presentations. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 13:22:52 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF20BA.18258.1DD9C4F8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > Zuse works for me too... > > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? > > Well, Zuse is aa Unit for > > m^2 * kg * w > ------------ > bit * IPS shouldn't that be m^3 ? (cubic meters, not square meters) > So a for example the Zuse 1 (100% mechanical, > binary floating point) ends up somewhere near > 55 Z, Intrinsically, the Zuse 1 MUST BE the standard! (Zuse 1 == 1 Zuse) Therefore, either we need additional constant coefficients, or we are leaving out one more parameter in the calculation. (rarity? inability to run MICROS~1 software? weight? unknown to the general population? . . . From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Thu Apr 18 13:23:11 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:45 2005 Subject: The Unit References: <3.0.5.32.20020418113855.00a958f0@ubanproductions.com> <3CBF0020.EE770039@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CBF0F0F.C2864246@Vishay.com> Careful: Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Zuse works for me too... > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? Don't set the Z1 == 1 Z, or you'll never probably get to TeraZuses! ;-) -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 18 13:23:30 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <3CBE69C1.2040205@internet1.net> Message-ID: >This isn't mine, but I wish it was :-) > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017593099 > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA No kidding! However, keep in mind this is one of the older Mentec ones from the late 80's. The M1 is the board to have as it's ~4x the speed of a /93. Of course just about any Mentec CPU board would be nice, and I wouldn't mind having one. For a little info on Mentec boards take a look at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/processo.htm Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Apr 18 13:25:45 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <20020418171830.71652.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784450@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020418142545.00f9b580@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: > >--- Christopher Smith wrote: >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] >> >> > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. >> >> Can we make it sufficiently small that it might extend to TerraZuse? > >PettaZuse? Attozuse? ^^^^^^^^^ I was going to mention that one but it sounded a bit too pornographic to me... :-P and ExaZuse sounds like we'd have a "contract" or "hit" out on his life... [sorry, I don't know the British slang for that, but it wouldn't be good to want to "rub out" the heirs of the guy we're trying to immortalize by the standard... ;-) ] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. Maybe we could just "skip" those for general use, just like "nanofarad" capacitors are not normally mentioned... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 13:31:41 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF0020.EE770039@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Zuse works for me too... > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? 1 Zuse == "Zuse 1". It can be nothing else. O, wouldst that this Windoze POS could even aspire to a picoZuse! From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Apr 18 13:33:44 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020418143344.00f9b580@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: >Are you pronouncing it correctly, i.e. "tsoo-zeh"? Or in the Greek "Zeus" >fashion? We could pull a Linus Torvalds and say "I don't care how it's said as long as everyone uses it! ;-) (provided, of course, everyone could at least recognize either enunciation, and not bastardize it beyond that... I have a friend who's actually quite good with computers still says he's got an 800 MegaHurt machine... otherwise my vote is with the German enunciation; it still irks me to hear people call those German sports cars a "porch") Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From hansp at aconit.org Thu Apr 18 13:38:43 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204181701.KAA26517@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3CBF12B3.5070803@aconit.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Looking at the other AIM-65 stuff I have, I found > ROMs for BASIC, Forth and PASCAL. I have manuals for > the BASIC and Forth is Forth so doesn't need a manual > but I have no manual for the PASCAL. I can make dumps > of these ROM's if there is interest. I haven't seen dumps of the PASCAL available elsewhere. Perhaps you could send them to Richard for his web site. -- hbp From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 18 13:41:58 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer Message-ID: <200204181841.AA18423@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: Christopher Smith > To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" > Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:25:54 -0500 > > Ok, I reset the netinfo database -- now as soon as I can > get it to give me a login prompt again instead of kicking > me into the 'me' account at boot I'll be in business there, As the user "me" give yourself a password. You can do this in the standard Unix way from a terminal window command line, or with the "Preferences" GUI. Then log out. This will activate the GUI login window. Now log in as root, and give root a password. > but my NeXT b&w laser printer is somewhat cranky. > Having not been used for years, I can see how this might > be... > > Here are its problems: > > Paper feed roller doesn't like to work well all the time. > > I'm certain that this problem comes from the printer setting > too long, and making an indentation in the rubber on the > roller. Has anyone had success in repairing this kind of > thing? See < http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/Black/Laser/index.html >. For that matter, look at the whole site, it is full of NeXT information. Also look around at < http://www.peak.org/~luomat/ > which is another repository of NeXT information. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 18 13:43:38 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CBF29B2.14916.1DFCCAE9@localhost> References: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CBF2FFA.25152.1E1555EE@localhost> Soo, I looked around, here's the number for the Z1, the first Zuse machine, 100% machanical. area: ~ 4 m^2 weight: ~500 kg power: ~1000w memory: 220 bits (10 floating point words of 22 bits) speed: 0,2 IPS (clockfrequency 1 Hz, and about 5 clocks for a multiplication) this comes up to 45,45 kZ (kilozuse) Quite an extraordinary number due the fact of real low storage and speed, not so much of size and weight. His next (real) Machine is quite different Z3 electromechanical: area: 6 m^3 (including operator desk) weight: 1000 kg power: 4000 w memory 1408 bits (64 22 bit words) speed: 0,33- 1,4 IPS (3 seconds per multiplication, 0,7 per addition) 51,7 kZ to 12,2 kZ Nice numbers, but to much memory :) His next machine, the Z4, although in size, weight and power like the Z3 is already 30 times faster, barely gets around a Kilozuse ... Well, the rest ist History. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 18 13:49:12 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: References: <3CBF20BA.18258.1DD9C4F8@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBF3148.14017.1E1A6FA8@localhost> > > > Zuse works for me too... > > > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? > > Well, Zuse is aa Unit for > > m^2 * kg * w > > ------------ > > bit * IPS > shouldn't that be m^3 ? (cubic meters, not square meters) See my other mail, square meeters give a better representation for odd shaped computers - and bigger numbers ... and disregard the average tower PC :) > > So a for example the Zuse 1 (100% mechanical, > > binary floating point) ends up somewhere near > > 55 Z, > Intrinsically, the Zuse 1 MUST BE the standard! > (Zuse 1 == 1 Zuse) Naaaa - this would be again a by definition standard. The basic idea of the SI system is to take everything aut of natur, so we may end up with somewhat odd numbers for derivated units, but straight calculations for conversion, and no arbitrarily factors. > Therefore, either we need additional constant coefficients, or we are > leaving out one more parameter in the calculation. (rarity? inability to > run MICROS~1 software? weight? unknown to the general population? Naa - to specific - it has to be stuff presemnt for each computer. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 13:54:27 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784453@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik S. Klein [mailto:classiccmp@mail.vintage-computer.com] > If the printer you have is the NeXT 400 dpi unit (I don't > have the model number in front of me) then I picked up > several from the gentleman who was selling them cheap in the > Bay Area. If you need one for spares or as a replacement > I'll be happy to sell it for what I paid for it ($15) plus > shipping. The ones I have are in excellent (untested) shape > with some looking almost new. . . Well, thanks for the offer. We'll see what happens here. I'm still hopeful of getting it fixed, and if not, I may be able to get a replacement locally. I happen to know (from the guy who runs the place) that the local scrapyard is overrun with these ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Thu Apr 18 14:08:52 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: HP 9114B floppy & Pmac dos card & Annex 2 Message-ID: I need to get rid of some more stuff: - HP 9114 HP-IL floppy drive, two rechargable battery packs (untested) - Powermac 6100 DOS (486) card with 6100 riser, but no dongle - Encore Annex 2 Terminal Server, pair of Amphelon 50pin (SCSI-I style) ports on its back Best offers by 1400 Zulu (7PM CDT) on 4/19/02 gets it. Best bid of at least $10 gets an item. Anything not sold goes to ePay. (more work for me :( ) Help support a 'poor college student' (me) :) -- Pat From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 06:12:22 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF0020.EE770039@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Zuse works for me too... > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? While the Zuse Z1 of course! http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/de/Rechner_Z1.html (in German) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 14:12:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784454@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > leaving out one more parameter in the calculation. (rarity? > inability to > run MICROS~1 software? weight? unknown to the general population? Well, I generally include inability to run microshaft software when I'm trying to figure out how cool a system is. Those that you can get a winders emulator for generally rank above those that run it natively, and those that you can't get an emulator for above that, A.S.O. -- I'm not sure how you'd turn that into a number to be used in a calculation, though. Perhaps that would be going the wrong way -- it would be simple just to find the minimal amount of internal storage required for a "supported" system, in comparison to the space required by the full system, and to subtract from the score based on that number. That would certainly harm more "modern" systems which run microsoft software ;) This "internal storage density" would probably be something like: ( + + )/Meters^3 (where the storage should be represented in some suitably large or small unit) Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 06:16:23 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF20BA.18258.1DD9C4F8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, Zuse is aa Unit for > > m^2 * kg * w > ------------ > bit * IPS > > So a for example the Zuse 1 (100% mechanical, > binary floating point) ends up somewhere near > 55 Z, while a modern PC (Lets take the dual > PIII 700 MHz with 384 MB I'm using right now) > gets around 4,8*10^-14 Z or 48 fZ (Femtozuse) > > I think this gives a good evaluation of the > geek value. I like it, but why don't we add a coefficient to make the Zuse 1 come out with a Zuse rating of 1? Multiplying it by .0181818... (1/55) would do the trick (lamely :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From hansp at aconit.org Thu Apr 18 14:20:58 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays References: <200204181755.KAA26671@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3CBF1C9A.9@aconit.org> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>Hi >>I have dibbs on page 56 ( I'm a little lazy ). >>Dwight > > There, that wasn't so bad ;) Many thanks, but we don't need to key in the Line #, LOC and CODE columns, they are generated by the assembler So, now go do page 57 but key in just the source -- hbp From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 06:18:42 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <20020418174502.41225.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > How about a button on "The Unit" calculator that speaks the value, > including the unit name on the end. SAM on the C-64 or the Amiga's > narrator.device could provide the audio - all that is required is a way > to digitize it on request and pipe it out. I could get S.A.M. to speak it, but it would only serve to make matters worse since it doesn't do the best job at synthesizing. How about we get Hans to speak it so we can also capture the essence of spoken perfection with Hans' Bavarian dialect? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 06:19:22 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Are you pronouncing it correctly, i.e. "tsoo-zeh"? Or in the Greek "Zeus" > > fashion? > > I'm a fluent German speaker. 8-) You're excused :) (And I'm jealous...time to re-enroll in my Goethe Institute classes.) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 14:29:28 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784454@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: Zuse1 == 1 Zuse. I'm sorry, and it's not very considerate on my part, but I have little sympathy for those who want their mass produced recent model computer to end up as a TERAZuse! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 14:38:03 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF3148.14017.1E1A6FA8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > See my other mail, square meeters give a better representation > for odd shaped computers - and bigger numbers ... and disregard > the average tower PC :) But it would also rate a 19" rack very close to a generic desktop machine. Perhaps we need BOTH fooutprint AND volume. From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 14:41:02 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Zuse gets my vote. Words like Gigazuse (GZ) sound really cool. > > Wow! a mchine that is a billion (or would that be 2^30?) times as cool > as Zuse's machine?? For that, I'd sit in the dark in a storage > locker! I'm never going to hear the end of that, am I? Peace... Sridhar From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Apr 18 14:41:56 2002 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: Sellam says >If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized, >I'd like to create a calculator script on the VCF website so that people >can enter their parameters and have their score automatically computed. > >We need a unit or label for this number. How about CCU = Classic Computer Units Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/10bacdec/attachment.html From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Thu Apr 18 14:41:22 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: HP 9114B floppy & Pmac dos card & Annex 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > - Encore Annex 2 Terminal Server, pair of Amphelon 50pin (SCSI-I style) > ports on its back Oops, that should read 4 ports, for a total of 32 serial lines. -- Pat From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 14:54:30 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784455@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > I'm sorry, and it's not very considerate on my part, but I have little > sympathy for those who want their mass produced recent model > computer to > end up as a TERAZuse! My thinking was more along the lines of a Zuse1 being in the TeraZuse range... The problem is that it would need to have a really strong curve to make modern windows boxen end up in the fractional AttoZuse range where they belong. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From hansp at aconit.org Thu Apr 18 15:12:37 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor source reconstruction References: <20020418161541.30491.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> <3CBEF909.1030702@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CBF28B5.5050006@aconit.org> OK, I'm done for the day. I completed pages 1-11, Dwight provided page 56 and I keyed in the last page, page 97. So we are about 13%done! At thsi rate we will be done in a week!! Anyone is welcome to help out, send your text directly to me hansp@aconit.org and I will do update the progress report as necessary. I have listed a little of my typing below to show what we need. Start each page with the page number comment to make it easier to navigate. ;; PAGE 0009 Hans B Pufal ;VECTORS COME HERE FIRST AFTER JUMP THRU FFFA-FFFF NMIVI JMP (NMIV2) ;NMIV2 IS A VECTOR TO NMIV3 IRQV1 JMP (IQV2) ;IRQV2 IS A VECTOR TO IRQV3 ;SINGLE STEP ENTRY POINT (NMI) NMIV3 STA SAVA ;SAVE ACCUM PLA STA SAVPS ;SAVE PROCESSOR STATUS CLD STX SAVX ;SAVE X STY SAVY PLA STA SAVPC ;PROGRAM COUNTER PLA STA SAVPC+1 TSX ;GET STACK POINTER & SAVE IT STX SVAS From spc at conman.org Thu Apr 18 15:09:36 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204181459.HAA28218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 18, 2002 07:59:12 AM Message-ID: <200204182009.QAA00884@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are > on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) If I remember correctly, for the orginal King's Quest for the PCjr, it was a single floppy that you booted from---it didn't have MS-DOS and it took over the machine entirely. I do seem to recall that the later games (King's Quest and the early Space Quest) were regular MS-DOS files but I don't recall the file structure (nor do I have any copies of the games in question). -spc (Remembers playing King's Quest (the original) on the PCjr) From hansp at aconit.org Thu Apr 18 15:16:57 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor source reconstruction References: <20020418161541.30491.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> <3CBEF909.1030702@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CBF29B9.2000207@aconit.org> On last thing for tonight, you can download the latest version of the text file at www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/monitor.txt Good night folks, -- hbp From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 18 15:15:18 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: <3.0.1.32.20020418143344.00f9b580@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3CBF2956.4020207@dragonsweb.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: > > >>Are you pronouncing it correctly, i.e. "tsoo-zeh"? Or in the Greek "Zeus" >>fashion? > > > We could pull a Linus Torvalds and say "I don't care how it's said as long > as everyone uses it! ;-) > > (provided, of course, everyone could at least recognize either enunciation, > and not bastardize it beyond that... I have a friend who's actually quite > good with computers still says he's got an 800 MegaHurt machine... > otherwise my vote is with the German enunciation; it still irks me to hear > people call those German sports cars a "porch") > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > Or even "porsch". Of course, that's better than what some people called my 914, mit der ob-topical D-jetronic analog injection computer, before I dusted them off in it. :-) jbdigriz From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 15:19:41 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784456@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > little green plastic tool with a strangely-shaped felt tip stuck into After reading this again, I find myself if the "strangely-shaped felt tip" is anything like the "strange flavored chicken" I always see on the menus of oriental restaurants... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 15:32:58 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020418143344.00f9b580@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20020418203258.55072.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: > > >Are you pronouncing it correctly, i.e. "tsoo-zeh"? Or in the Greek > "Zeus" fashion? > > We could pull a Linus Torvalds and say "I don't care how it's said as > long as everyone uses it! ;-) Tomahto-Tomayto? > ...I have a friend who's actually quite good with computers still says > he's got an 800 MegaHurt machine... Maybe he would learn how to pronounce it if you dropped his computer on his foot 800 million times? :-) > otherwise my vote is with the German enunciation; it still irks me to > hear people call those German sports cars a "porch") One of my housemates loves to joke when being passed by one... "look (in the mirror)... it's a back porch... now it's a side porch... now, I guess it's a front porch". And, of course, the punchline, "I'm all done with the painting, but I gotta tell ya, Lady, that ain't no porch, that's a Ferrari." -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Thu Apr 18 15:42:23 2002 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: missing chips on "new" UNIBUS boards ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020417201635.00a859c0@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3CBD9CA1.7010302@aurora.regenstrief.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020417201635.00a859c0@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <1019162543.6365.8.camel@silke> I managed to delete the original posting to this, so: Would it be helpfull for the original poster - Mr. Schadow, i think - if he had a binary file of the contents of the KFQSA-ROM? I am also able (and willing, of course) to burn 27c1024 eproms. Contact me off-line. ms On Thu, 2002-04-18 at 02:21, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 10:29 PM 4/17/02 +0200, Michael Schneider wrote: > >On my KFQSA, this chip is labelled > > > > T 23-081E8-00 9205EAI > > TC 531024P-15-F814 > > (C) DEC 89 > > > >So, it looks like something proprietary to DEC. It might be a ROM, > >but as far as i can see from following the board traces it has > >something to do with an i8097 nearby... > > The part number is 23-081E8-00; 23-class part numbers are ROMs. > It seems to me that you wouldn't be violating any copyrights making a > replacement copy for another duly-licensed KFQSA board. > -Rick > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de Sieben auf einen Streich From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 15:43:10 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: Minimal RAM (was Re: The Unit) In-Reply-To: <3CBF29B2.14916.1DFCCAE9@localhost> Message-ID: <20020418204310.56716.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans Franke wrote: > d) Memory. Most would go for bytes, or kilobytes... > Only real, main memory. If there is no memory at all, > the number 1 is to be used (well, sounds odd, I can't > come up with a machine totaly without memory). I'd have to dig, but I found a Z-80-based digital clock project on a web page recently that had an *empty* 6116 socket. There was ROM code, but no RAM. It ran by only using "storage" in the registers. Not quite "totally", but totally without what is normally considered "main memory". > High numbers are bad. Agreed. I have an Elf here - 256 bytes of RAM, 0 bytes ROM. What has less than that? I suppose you could stick a 6810 in there for 128 bytes, or even a pair of 74170s (4 bytes), but there's not much you can do with an 1802 in 4 bytes. Load a register over and over. Toggle the Q flag. Hey... I might just have to build a 74170->1822 pin swabber and try to run the Elf on 4 bytes of RAM (I have all the parts here already). A new contest! Write a working program for the 1802 in 4 bytes. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 18 15:56:02 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor source reconstruction Message-ID: <200204182056.NAA26856@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hans B Pufal" > >On last thing for tonight, you can download the latest version of the >text file at www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/monitor.txt > >Good night folks, > > -- hbp > > That's no fair, your picking all the small ones but you missed page 13. Dwight From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Thu Apr 18 16:08:41 2002 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1019164121.6365.14.camel@silke> Zuse would be great! And, if we reduce the formula to SI units, we get: (IPS are Instructions Per Second, right?) m^4 * kg^2 1 Zuse = 1 ------------ s^2 which is sufficiently strange.... ms On Thu, 2002-04-18 at 13:16, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Well, Zuse is aa Unit for > > > > m^2 * kg * w > > ------------ > > bit * IPS > > > > So a for example the Zuse 1 (100% mechanical, > > binary floating point) ends up somewhere near > > 55 Z, while a modern PC (Lets take the dual > > PIII 700 MHz with 384 MB I'm using right now) > > gets around 4,8*10^-14 Z or 48 fZ (Femtozuse) > > > > I think this gives a good evaluation of the > > geek value. > > I like it, but why don't we add a coefficient to make the Zuse 1 come out > with a Zuse rating of 1? > > Multiplying it by .0181818... (1/55) would do the trick (lamely :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de Sieben auf einen Streich From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 18 16:22:14 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: fix for 33 teletype Message-ID: <200204182122.OAA26868@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was just trying to think of what I could use to replace the hammer of a model 33. Mine had turned to crumbs. I think one of the stick on rubber feet for projects boxes should work. Dwight From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 18 16:27:38 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5A7@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Cini, Richard wrote: > Dick: > > No, I don't have a machine-readable version of the listing. I > scanned the pages directly to PDF (using Acrobar Writer) but I never got > around to taking those scans and OCRing them to a text file (it was on the > RSN list). > > I did the PC BIOSes and the VIC Kernal ROM, The KIMs were done by > others. > > Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > > > You wouldn't happen to have a machine-readable (non-PDF) just text file of > the > monitor listing, whould you? > > Dick Adobe has been kind enough to solve this little problem for us. See following. - don The e-mail based PDF accessibility tools have been updated. You can now submit multiple URLs in a single e-mail message as well as submit PDF files to Adobe as MIME attachments. See below for more details. There are three e-mail options you can use to convert Adobe PDF documents to a format that is more accessible to screen reading software. The e-mail address you use depends on the conversion format you want, plain (ASCII) text or HTML, and whether the PDF is on the Internet or local media. Option 1 If the Adobe? PDF is on the Internet, you can mail the URL (Web address) of the PDF in the body of an e-mail message to pdf2txt@adobe.com (for plain text) or to pdf2html@adobe.com (for HTML). The convertor will mail back the translation of the PDF file. You can submit multiple URLs in a single e-mail.Tip: Some URLs are very long and cumbersome to type. Cutting and pasting the URL into the mail message will save you some keystrokes. Option 2 If the Adobe PDF is on local media, such as a hard drive, CD-ROM, or internal server, it can be submitted as a MIME attachment to an e-mail message. All converted Adobe PDF documents will be sent back to the sender as MIME attachments. For plain text, mail the attached PDF to pdf2txt@adobe.com. For HTML, mail the attached PDF to pdf2html@adobe.com. Option 3 A service hosted by Trace Research Center also allows you to convert Adobe PDF documents. You can either mail the URL of the Adobe PDF or attach the Adobe PDF document itself to your e-mail message and send it to pdf2txt@sun.trace.wisc.edu (for plain text) or to pdf2html@sun.trace.wisc.edu (for HTML). The convertor will mail back the translation of the PDF file. From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 18 16:28:42 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784457@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Hi everybody, I may have a line on a couple of (probably not yet on topic) coke machine sized AS/400s in the Champaign area. I don't think I have space for them, but I'd like not to see them get ruined. Please let me know if anyone would be interested in these things. I'd like to have some people I could point them to who'd be willing to take these either for some cost or not (depends on the guy who's got the systems...), and save them from being shredded. :) Don't know anything else at this point. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 13:34:15 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: <20020417202310.A10640@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 17, 2 08:23:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/8158fcf9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 13:54:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 18, 2 09:25:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/0810cf75/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 15:45:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CBEFA2C.2639.1D4328C1@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 18, 2 04:54:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/aed6987b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 16:02:17 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: <15550.59230.191588.365642@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 18, 2 11:33:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/ae23c6ad/attachment.ksh From dave at naffnet.org.uk Thu Apr 18 16:38:24 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! Message-ID: <3CBF3CCF.2F6CA603@naffnet.org.uk> Hi all, I have a MicroVAX (BA123 enclosure, KA650 CPU) that I would like to put to work... to this end I have two M7941 (DRV11) parallel I/O cards that I would like to bring into service. The Micronotes say that this card is compatible with the 22-bit QBUS, and I have the Field Service print set so I can set the CSR and vectors to appropriate values. Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I am not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O space, given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and write to in order the drive the beastie... Thanks in advance for your help, Dave. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 16:50:16 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: fix for 33 teletype In-Reply-To: <200204182122.OAA26868@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Apr 18, 2 02:22:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/f4359b88/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 16:59:47 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer In-Reply-To: Re: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer (Tony Duell) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178444B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <15551.16851.582327.171190@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 18, Tony Duell wrote: > I am going to guess this is based on a Canon print engine. If so, then > the first thing to do is to indentify which one. The PrinterWorks > (http://www.printerworks.com/) used to have pictures of printers, > exploded diagrams of the mechanism, etc on their website. They probably > still do. > > Alternatively, does it take the same toner cartridge as any more common > (HP, for example) printer? The NeXT laser printer is a [slightly] modified Canon SX engine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Thu Apr 18 17:08:46 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > Some of the front-panel functions (e.g., JOG) sounded like they might > > control something else. Maybe even a VCR? So that's why I wrote > > The term 'jog' is also used with reference to machine tools, which might > be a more reasonable thing for this computer to control. > > Does the 'front panel' connect to the microprocessor's bus (in other > words could it edit memory directly), or is it linked to I/O chips and is > therefore entirely software driven? The second seems more likely, alas. (Again) It (appears to) connect to the 6821's. -- Pat From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 17:11:33 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male connector shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. It is also used to plug into the H744 (and other) power supplies. The DEC part number is 12-09340-00 which might also be a Mate-N-Lock 1-480460-0 I would like to find 12-24 of them. I am assuming that if I can find the shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. --tom From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 17:22:59 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784457@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: Chris, if you get the chance can you find out if they're CISC or RISC machines? tnx. g. On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I may have a line on a couple of (probably not yet on topic) > coke machine sized AS/400s in the Champaign area. I don't > think I have space for them, but I'd like not to see them get > ruined. > > Please let me know if anyone would be interested in these things. > I'd like to have some people I could point them to who'd be willing > to take these either for some cost or not (depends on the guy who's > got the systems...), and save them from being shredded. :) > > Don't know anything else at this point. > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 18 17:20:49 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665FB@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> > Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I am >not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the >problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O space, >given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and write to >in order the drive the beastie... The necessary manuals are all available at: http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ Start with the OpenVMS VAX Device Support Manual ( http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/PDF/OVMS_VAX_SUP_GD .pdf ) and the OpenVMS VAX Device Support Reference Manual ( http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/PDF/OVMS_VAX_SUP_GD .pdf ) Both of these are now in the archived section. The second one of these is basically an introduction to writing a device driver for OpenVMS VAX and includes probably all the info you need for the Qbus mapping in Chapter 14. The Coinnect to Interrupt stuff in Chapter 21 may be a useful introduction if you've not done a full driver before. It will show you how to map the registers and respond to device interrupts. Once you can do that you should have the hang of talking to devices on the Qbus and can move on to doing a driver proper. Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Apr 18 17:23:41 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665FC@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the >abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the Coulomh. Twas a coulomb when I were at skool ... From rhb57 at vol.com Thu Apr 18 17:25:15 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784457@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: You know there's a scrapper across the road from the UPS center on Lincoln Rd/Blvd (north side of I-74) that takes in computer & printer equipment, sells by the pound. Have you ever been out there at all, they have a separate building for non-automotive items. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith => Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:29 PM => To: Classiccmp (E-mail) => Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => Hi everybody, => => I may have a line on a couple of (probably not yet on topic) => coke machine sized AS/400s in the Champaign area. I don't => think I have space for them, but I'd like not to see them get => ruined. => => Please let me know if anyone would be interested in these things. => I'd like to have some people I could point them to who'd be willing => to take these either for some cost or not (depends on the guy who's => got the systems...), and save them from being shredded. :) => => Don't know anything else at this point. => => Chris => => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer => Amdocs - Champaign, IL => => /usr/bin/perl -e ' => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); => ' => From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 17:33:13 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: BIE 4410 In-Reply-To: from "pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com" at Apr 18, 2 05:08:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/3856c8b7/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 17:42:56 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784457@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <020d01c1e72a$637773a0$06000240@default> If no one closer to you wants them let me know and I will plan a trip up there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area > Hi everybody, > > I may have a line on a couple of (probably not yet on topic) > coke machine sized AS/400s in the Champaign area. I don't > think I have space for them, but I'd like not to see them get > ruined. > > Please let me know if anyone would be interested in these things. > I'd like to have some people I could point them to who'd be willing > to take these either for some cost or not (depends on the guy who's > got the systems...), and save them from being shredded. :) > > Don't know anything else at this point. > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Apr 18 17:49:00 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:46 2005 Subject: PRO/Venix Message-ID: <200204182249.SAA5858597@shell.TheWorld.com> In case anyone is interested, I was organizing some of my collection today and came across a set of Pro/Venix documentation in original DEC/Professional boxes and the V2.0 release of Pro/Venix (with the developers toolkit). I'm hoping the disks (RX50s) are still readable... If they are, I'll try to make image copies and get them to the PUPS archive... any place else I should consider? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 17:46:41 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit References: <3CBF20BA.18258.1DD9C4F8@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBF4CD1.E46E236F@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans Franke wrote: > > Date sent: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:19:28 -0600 > From: Ben Franchuk > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The Unit > Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Zuse works for me too... > > But what Zuse Computer will be == 1 Zuse? > > Well, Zuse is aa Unit for > > m^2 * kg * w > ------------ > bit * IPS > > So a for example the Zuse 1 (100% mechanical, > binary floating point) ends up somewhere near > 55 Z, while a modern PC (Lets take the dual > PIII 700 MHz with 384 MB I'm using right now) > gets around 4,8*10^-14 Z or 48 fZ (Femtozuse) > > I think this gives a good evaluation of the > geek value. Would it better to have it inverted, so the heavy stuff is at the bottom. :) Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 18 18:10:21 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <200204182310.QAA26895@clulw009.amd.com> >X-Server-Uuid: e4c4d26a-1188-11d5-b029-00508be35655 >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f >From: "Carlini, Antonio" >To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" >Subject: RE: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) >Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:23:41 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-WSS-ID: 10A18E9F850016-01-02 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the > >abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the >Coulomh. > > Twas a coulomb when I were at skool ... > My Calculator says C is 299792458. Dwight From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 10:28:57 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CBF29B2.14916.1DFCCAE9@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > a) Size > of course size - we all agree her size does matter, > and bigger is better - isn't it ? Now, size is a > measured in meters, we just have to decide if we go > for area (m^2) or volume (m^3). I'd rather like to > see area area included. Tree reasons: first (most > important to me), area numbers are usualy larger > than volume numbers for for similar machines. > Second, volume would give tall systems and advantage > over systems with a large footprint. Third by using > just the 2d footprint we can cover odd shaped machines > very easy. And a PET should get a higher value of Z > than any tower-PC :) I think a better way to make an older PC get a higher Z is to invert the data bus width and RAM size. > c) power consuption - Yea, raise my power bill and > switch of the neighborhood... Unit is Watts (w). > I would suggest to use the amount of input power, > so including all losses in Power supplies atc, which > belong directly to the system - and if you happen > to have an integrated steam engine to drive your > mechanical computer, the wats have to be calculated > from the amount of coal needed to run the engine ... What about peripherals? Do we add up all the power consumption of the associated peripherals, like disk drives, printers, cassette records, tape drives, core memory units, drum memory, etc.? > d) Memory. Most would go for bytes, or kilobytes, but > first, only units without a prefix are to be used, and > second, bytes are not realy applicable to all machines. > for example the early Zuse machines had only a storage > for floating point numbers ... I think bit may be an > apropriate number. The backside of this is that the > numbers get pretty soon very high - and the Z number > quite low. To be counted is all external Memory. I'd > exclude registers etc. Only real main memory. If there > is no memory at all, the number 1 is to be used (well, > sounds odd, I can't come up with a machine totaly without > memory). High numbers are bad. Wait, are we trying to make the Z number high for older machines, or low? I would imagine that we would want the number to be lower the more classic the machine is (think of it as showing how far along from the beginning a machine is). > Area: 45x50 cm = 0,225 m^3 > Weight: 17,5 kg > Power: 105W > Bits: 32768 > IPS: 250 kips (assumption) > > Result: 50,47 nZ (Nanozuse) > > or a Kim 1 > > Area: 20x40 cm = 0,08 m^3 > Weight: 1,5 kg (including power supply > Power: 15W > Bits: 9120 > IPS: 250 kips (as above) > > Result: 0,79 nZ > > Well, the machine is a lightwight baby with the same processing > power than the PET .. only the large footprint helps Single-board computers will always result in an anomalous calculation. > I think machines like a Northstar (or most S100 boxes) have a big > advantage ... lage footprint, superheavy powersups and not to much > processorpower ... And more classic than a PET. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 18:28:39 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: <000d01c1e6ec$a4c30880$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> <3CBF2FFA.25152.1E1555EE@localhost> Message-ID: <3CBF56A7.6972DE06@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans Franke wrote: > > Soo, I looked around, here's the number for the Z1, > the first Zuse machine, 100% machanical. > > area: ~ 4 m^2 > weight: ~500 kg > power: ~1000w > memory: 220 bits (10 floating point words of 22 bits) > speed: 0,2 IPS (clockfrequency 1 Hz, and about 5 clocks for a multiplication) > > this comes up to > 45,45 kZ (kilozuse) > > Quite an extraordinary number due the fact of real low storage and speed, > not so much of size and weight. > > His next (real) Machine is quite different > > Z3 electromechanical: > area: 6 m^3 (including operator desk) > weight: 1000 kg > power: 4000 w > memory 1408 bits (64 22 bit words) > speed: 0,33- 1,4 IPS (3 seconds per multiplication, 0,7 per addition) > > 51,7 kZ to 12,2 kZ > > Nice numbers, but to much memory :) > > His next machine, the Z4, although in size, weight and power > like the Z3 is already 30 times faster, barely gets around a > Kilozuse ... > > Well, the rest ist History. Well what about the rest of the classic machines? Lets not forget DA-Blinking-Lights some where in the UNIT. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From owad at applefritter.com Thu Apr 18 18:33:45 2002 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200204162228.g3GMScE12165@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20020418233345.9713@mail.lafayette.edu> >> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! >> >> http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html > >It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no >documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced >Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system >was actually made by Apple and not some third-party. The article is a bit fantastical with the black helicopters and all. My guess was that the SE/30 was built by Candes Systems (if I properly read the label on the back), under license from Apple. ?If the Mac were an Apple prototype (like Owen suggests), it would almost certainly be labeled as such and would not have the Candes label. If it were an official Apple product (as Bruce apparently believes), we'd know about it. Claiming it was a confidential Apple product produced for the CIA or some such agency sounds like fun, but is pretty unlikely. First, it is unlikely Apple would have wanted to engage in the production of such a low-production product. More probably, having recognized the existence of this niche but not wanting to actively persue it, they would have granted a smaller third party permission to build cases around Macintosh motherboards Apple could have supplied. Apple has done similar (sort of) with Dynamac and Outbound. Second, making a tempest Mac isn't hard. If the military really wanted a tempest Macintosh and wanted the project to remain confidential, they could have just slapped some metal around the inside. There would have been no need to involve Apple. This licensing theory has the potential to explain both the Apple logo and the lack of awareness at Apple of the machine's existence. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 18 18:56:49 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204182009.QAA00884@conman.org> References: <200204182009.QAA00884@conman.org> Message-ID: > I do seem to recall that the later games (King's Quest and the early Space >Quest) were regular MS-DOS files but I don't recall the file structure (nor >do I have any copies of the games in question). It's been a long time since I played any of them but most of the Sierra games of the period used passages in the manuals and such as copy protection. They'd let you get somewhat into the game and then spring something on you that required you to look it up in the manual or some other item that was included with the game. I still have a great many original Sierra games but few of the docs to run them. One cool thing though is that Sierra's 10th anniversary catalog from 1989, which I got with 'Leisure Suit Larry III', has a smallish picture of the Apple I with thier 'Mystery House' game on the cover. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From owad at applefritter.com Thu Apr 18 19:00:58 2002 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020419000058.16862@mail.lafayette.edu> >These things are extremely rare in general, at least out in the wild. >This is only the third to surface, and of all three now documented on the >web (or at least known to be) they are all completely different. Actually, I have a fourth one (IIRC, I got it from a list member) that I haven't put on Applefritter yet. It's like Sellam's Systematics in design concept, but is shoddier and has a back like the tempest SE/30. Curiously, like the SE/30, this tempest Mac is also missing it's motherboard and back panel. Does anybody know if motherboard removal was a common practice in decomissioning tempest computers? Has anybody actually ever seen or gotten to experiment with equipment intended for emanation monitoring? Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 18 19:07:57 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer Message-ID: <200204190007.AA19222@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: Christopher Smith > To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" > Subject: RE: NeXT (Almost-up-and-running-now) Laser Printer > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 13:54:27 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Erik S. Klein [mailto:classiccmp@mail.vintage-computer.com] > > > If the printer you have is the NeXT 400 dpi unit (I don't > > have the model number in front of me) then I picked up > > several from the gentleman who was selling them cheap in the > > Bay Area. If you need one for spares or as a replacement > > I'll be happy to sell it for what I paid for it ($15) plus > > shipping. The ones I have are in excellent (untested) shape > > with some looking almost new. . . > > Well, thanks for the offer. We'll see what happens here. I'm > still hopeful of getting it fixed, and if not, I may be able to > get a replacement locally. I happen to know (from the guy who > runs the place) that the local scrapyard is overrun with these ;) Just remember that all of the NeXT printers are getting on in age, and most of them have one or more of the fatal symptoms: Input roller has dried out so paper doesn't go in. Output gear has stripped so paper doesn't come out. There are other interesting problems that some printers have, such as the "door open" sensing switch insisting that the door is not closed. I don't know how many printers you would have to merge to get one that worked. Randy Rencsok's web site has lots of good documentation on disassembling NeXT printers. < http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/Black > carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 19:14:14 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <200204182310.QAA26895@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Apr 18, 2 04:10:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020419/47d0d2ca/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 18 19:40:47 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204182009.QAA00884@conman.org> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Apr 18, 2 04:09:36 pm" Message-ID: <200204190040.RAA28374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are > > on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) > If I remember correctly, for the orginal King's Quest for the PCjr, it was > a single floppy that you booted from---it didn't have MS-DOS and it took > over the machine entirely. Nuts. I have King's Quest in a later incarnation that *does* still have PCjr support (apparently) but it all won't fit on a 360K floppy, which led to my earlier question about HD drives in jrs. I wonder if there's a way to get an image of that disk ... -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 18 19:35:39 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204181459.HAA28218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200204181459.HAA28218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are >on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) Here's the 3.5" disk version of King's Quest from 1987, which still supported the PCjr graphics. The disk is a 720k DD disk. When it is installed to a hard disk and then run, it asks for the original disks for verification. Volume in drive A is KQ1 DISK 1 Directory of A:\ INSTALLH BAT 1,247 12-01-87 12:19p _INSTALL BAT 764 12-03-87 8:46a SIERRA COM 3,121 12-01-87 12:20p AGI 39,424 12-01-87 12:20p AGIDATA OVL 8,192 12-01-87 8:49a CGA_GRAF OVL 1,024 12-01-87 8:48a JR_GRAF OVL 512 12-01-87 8:48a EGA_GRAF OVL 1,024 12-01-87 8:48a HGC_GRAF OVL 1,536 12-01-87 8:48a VG_GRAF OVL 512 12-01-87 8:48a IBM_OBJS OVL 512 12-01-87 8:48a HGC_OBJS OVL 1,024 12-01-87 8:48a MAKEPATH COM 74 04-22-87 12:05p HGC_FONT 3,072 01-26-87 3:47p _KQ1 BAT 39 04-07-87 2:04p OBJECT 331 04-09-87 11:45p WORDS TOK 3,144 03-27-87 11:15a LOGDIR 315 05-05-87 9:02a PICDIR 255 05-05-87 9:02a SNDDIR 144 05-05-87 9:02a VIEWDIR 432 05-05-87 9:02a VOL 0 48,472 05-05-87 9:01a VOL 1 200,630 05-05-87 9:01a VOL 2 90,891 05-05-87 9:02a KQ101078 QA 12 01-01-80 12:50a KQ1SG 1 2,872 06-27-89 11:59a 26 file(s) 409,575 bytes 290,816 bytes free -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020418/116dc7e3/attachment.html From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 18 19:45:50 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! Message-ID: <200204190045.AA19327@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Thu Apr 18 15:17:12 2002 > X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:38:24 +0100 > From: Dave Woodman > Organization: The Nicely Naff Network > X-Accept-Language: en > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Hi all, > > I have a MicroVAX (BA123 enclosure, KA650 CPU) that I would like > to put to work... to this end I have two M7941 (DRV11) parallel I/O > cards that I would like to bring into service. The Micronotes say that > this card is compatible with the 22-bit QBUS, and I have the Field > Service print set so I can set the CSR and vectors to appropriate > values. > > Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I am > not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the > problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O space, > given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and write to > in order the drive the beastie... It's sort of standard DEC for a parallel interface. CSR + 2 is the output buffer, connected to connector J1 Bits in CSR+2 are read/write to the CPU besides the data lines, J1 has some control bits REQA which maps to CSR<15> and is read-only NEWDATA, pulse output by CPU writing to CSR+2, which should be used to clear REQA CSR1 which is CSR<1>, read-write for device control CSR + 4 is the input buffer, connected to connector J2 Bits in CSR+4 are read-only to the CPU J2 has control bits: REQB mapped to CSR<7>, read-only DATATRANS, pulse output by CPU reading CSR+4, should be used to clear REQB CSR0 which is CSR<0>, read-write for device control CSR has the usual INT_ENB A at <6> and INT_ENB A at <5> INT_ENB AND REQ makes an interrupt. Interrupt A at VEC, B at VEC+4. Information from "microcomputer interfaces handbook 1980" EB-17723-20 carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 18 20:10:31 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020419000058.16862@mail.lafayette.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020418211031.0082b100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:00 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote: >>These things are extremely rare in general, at least out in the wild. >>This is only the third to surface, and of all three now documented on the >>web (or at least known to be) they are all completely different. > >Actually, I have a fourth one (IIRC, I got it from a list member) that I >haven't put on Applefritter yet. It's like Sellam's Systematics in >design concept, but is shoddier and has a back like the tempest SE/30. >Curiously, like the SE/30, this tempest Mac is also missing it's >motherboard and back panel. Does anybody know if motherboard removal was >a common practice in decomissioning tempest computers? I've seen several dozen Tempest Macs, about a dozen Tempest PCs and a smattering of other Tempest systems and all of them have had the motherboard still in them. Almost none of them have had the drives still in them but occasionally a drive turns up by itself. IIRC all of them have removable drives in them including the PCs. The strangest one that I've seen was a Tempest PS-2. The removeable drive in it was a real kludge. About a month ago I picked up a Tempest Pentium PC with a bad CPU card that still had the drive in it. It had a VERY expensive 1553 Bus analyzer card in it and ALL the (Classified) software was still on the drive. I offloaded 1553 files and wiped and reformatted the drive. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 18 19:59:26 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020418205926.00826300@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Tom, Can you post a picture of one? One of the places that I scrounge at has baskets full of cut off cable connectors. I might be able to find some there. Joe At 05:11 PM 4/18/02 -0500, you wrote: >I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male connector >shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. It is also used >to plug into the H744 (and other) power supplies. > >The DEC part number is 12-09340-00 which might also be a Mate-N-Lock >1-480460-0 > >I would like to find 12-24 of them. I am assuming that if I can find the >shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. > >--tom > > From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 18 20:09:56 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: <200204190109.g3J19xQ05942@ns2.ezwind.net> >Does anybody know if motherboard removal was >a common practice in decomissioning tempest computers? Maybe the people that were using it were super paranoid? There is a company near here dumping PCs right now, and each one has to have its motherboard snapped in half before it hits the dumpster.... because they are afraid a rival company will get the PC and find info left behind on the motherboard. (it really just tells me some ignorant person is in charge of the disposal, but either way, it is their policy right now). Hard Drives are being reformatted with one of those secure wiping programs and then opened and smashed. Of course, I can't personally verify this, as the info came to me from a friend, but with some of the moron IT directors I have met, I don't hesistate to believe it. -chris From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Apr 18 20:32:52 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: <1019073181.2261.10.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> References: <000a01c1e643$75246000$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> <1019073181.2261.10.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20020419013251.GA11905@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Alex White, from writings of Wed, Apr 17, 2002 at 08:52:58PM +0100: > My computer's heavier than yours. My computer is more PERQish than yours, and hence more hackish. It's small enough to be called a personal computer and fit underneath a desk; it's big enough that most people wouldn't want to attempt to put it on a desk, although using one as a desktop computer would mean less space for less interesting things on one's desk; it's heavy enough that one wouldn't want to hear someone say "here, catch!"; it dissipates enough heat to heat a room, with that heat dissipated by several fans; it's microprogrammable; it runs various operating systems, both single and multi-user; it makes the Apple Lisa look like a boring child's toy; it has the power of an minicomputer; raster-op graphics for fast and smooth animation; it's been know to shoot sparks from tantalum capacitors; its rumored to work when it wants to - the ultimate in artificial intelligence; engineered to the limits of the timing capabilities of its chips; it's a PERQ. I dare anyone without a classic PERQ workstation to attempt one-up this one! ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Apr 18 20:42:10 2002 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Office Max events Message-ID: <17a.6f122b1.29f0cff2@aol.com> Event #1 I went to OM earlier today to take pick up a UPS that was on sale. Their ad from last Sunday's paper lists a unit at $20 off (and no friggin' rebates to mess with). The ad listed the unit as 500VA. When I get to the store, the clerk points it out to me and the unit is 350VA. I say whoa, it is listed in the ad as 500VA. Turns out they list the model number for a 350VA unit and spec it at 500VA. I asked to see the manager, who already knows me (more on that later). This time I got stuck with the assistant manager. She states that it must be a misprint and she can't be held responsible for printing errors. I don't mind saying that I am getting tired of employees who will not take responsibilty. So I read her my riot act mentioning that she is standing here as a representive of OM and in my eyes is responsible. I also point to Staples (across the street) and mention the fact that a young man over there was also not responsible and after my complaint to Staples on their web sight, he got lectures from the higher ups, not to mention the phone calls that I got from district and regional managers seeking to make sure I became a satisfied customer. Anyway, back to this gal at OM. I mentioned to her that listing the model number of the 350VA unit and the spec of the 500VA unit might be construed as "bait & switch". With that she looked up the price of the 500VA unit and said she would sell it to me for 40 bucks off. Event #2 A few weeks ago I want to OM to buy another sale item. They had a CD-R 100 pack listed for $40 with a $30 rebate. What caught my eye was that they were 650 mb. My CD Burner drive is an earlier model, and does not like these new-fangled 700 mb thingies. So I go into OM and can't find them. A clerk comes along and I show him the ad and tell him that is what I want. He leads me to the big display of 700 mb. I point to the ad and tell him I want what is advertised, not these. You ever noticed how these clerks become dumbfounded and clam up at this point. He suggests I talk to the manager. I did and here again I mention that trying to substitute 750 mb for the advertised 650 mb might be construed as "bait & switch". With that she took my name and phone number and said she would get back to me. She did, she called two days later and said she had 2 100 packs for me. I indicated I only want the one because of the rebate limit. She then explained that the 2nd one was complimentary for my trouble. Now if I just get the rebate, that's 200 CD-R blanks for $10. Event #3 Speaking of rebates. I bought some memory at OM and sent in the rebate. Three months later I had not received the money. So I took all the paperwork into the store. Lo and behold, they have a form for just that. I filled it out and they gave me the $50 rebate right there. Why don't they just do that in the first place? Why you ask am I still going into OM? In this town there just isn't much else and they seem to have better sales. I share all of this because you need to watch out if you are dealing with OM. If they try to pull a fast one, namely "bait & switch", then call them on it. Maybe they will learn to get their ads right, or at least you may get a deal. Mike From spc at conman.org Thu Apr 18 20:45:10 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204190040.RAA28374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 18, 2002 05:40:47 PM Message-ID: <200204190145.VAA01684@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > > > Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are > > > on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) > > > If I remember correctly, for the orginal King's Quest for the PCjr, it was > > a single floppy that you booted from---it didn't have MS-DOS and it took > > over the machine entirely. > > Nuts. I have King's Quest in a later incarnation that *does* still have PCjr > support (apparently) but it all won't fit on a 360K floppy, which led to > my earlier question about HD drives in jrs. > > I wonder if there's a way to get an image of that disk ... I have a copy of the original King's Quest for the PCjr (in the original box no less) but I have no idea where it is right now as I'm still in the process of moving and unpacking (insane condo commandos but that's a rant for another time). -spc (And I don't recall if it's copy protected or not ... ) From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 12:50:27 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CBF2FFA.25152.1E1555EE@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Soo, I looked around, here's the number for the Z1, > the first Zuse machine, 100% machanical. > > area: ~ 4 m^2 > weight: ~500 kg > power: ~1000w > memory: 220 bits (10 floating point words of 22 bits) > speed: 0,2 IPS (clockfrequency 1 Hz, and about 5 clocks for a multiplication) > > this comes up to > 45,45 kZ (kilozuse) > > Quite an extraordinary number due the fact of real low storage and speed, > not so much of size and weight. > > His next (real) Machine is quite different > > Z3 electromechanical: > area: 6 m^3 (including operator desk) > weight: 1000 kg > power: 4000 w > memory 1408 bits (64 22 bit words) > speed: 0,33- 1,4 IPS (3 seconds per multiplication, 0,7 per addition) > > 51,7 kZ to 12,2 kZ > > Nice numbers, but to much memory :) > > His next machine, the Z4, although in size, weight and power > like the Z3 is already 30 times faster, barely gets around a > Kilozuse ... I think your formula needs some serious tinkering. I think the lowest number should reflect the most classic machine. The Zuse 1 should come out to 1 Zuse as others have suggested. So by this measure, the Babbage Difference Engine should come out at something a bit less than 1 Zuse. The Pentium III with 256MB and 10GB hard disk sitting on my desk should be something in the TerraZuse range (or much higher). We should also factor in user I/O. Machines that used front panels and blinkenlights should have much lower (i.e. more classic) scores than those that have keyboards and 16MB bit-mapped displays with 24 million colors and what not. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 12:51:33 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <3CBF3148.14017.1E1A6FA8@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > Intrinsically, the Zuse 1 MUST BE the standard! > > (Zuse 1 == 1 Zuse) > > Naaaa - this would be again a by definition standard. The basic > idea of the SI system is to take everything aut of natur, so we > may end up with somewhat odd numbers for derivated units, but > straight calculations for conversion, and no arbitrarily factors. The Zuse 1 IS out of nature. > > Therefore, either we need additional constant coefficients, or we are > > leaving out one more parameter in the calculation. (rarity? inability to > > run MICROS~1 software? weight? unknown to the general population? > > Naa - to specific - it has to be stuff presemnt for each computer. Don't you have a VCF to be planning? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 12:54:33 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784454@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Well, I generally include inability to run microshaft software when I'm > trying to figure out how cool a system is. Those that you can get a > winders emulator for generally rank above those that run it natively, > and those that you can't get an emulator for above that, A.S.O. -- I'm > not sure how you'd turn that into a number to be used in a calculation, > though. As soon as you start even remotely or indirectly even acknowledging MS in the Zuse unit then you bring dishonor to the equation. You may as well go spit on Zuse's grave! Let's leave MS garbage out of the equation. Especially after the waste of time I spent on that piece of shit they call an OS this past week. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From lists at subatomix.com Thu Apr 18 21:04:17 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126407471152.20020418210417@subatomix.com> On Wednesday, April 17, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized > ... We need a unit or label for this number. Are you annoyed that no one has suggested naming the unit the 'Ismail'? :-) -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 18 21:01:13 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: <200204190201.g3J21HQ06204@ns2.ezwind.net> >It had a VERY expensive 1553 Bus analyzer card in it and ALL the >(Classified) software was still on the drive. I offloaded 1553 files and >wiped and reformatted the drive. but never even peeked at those classified files... right? (wink wink nudge nudge) -chris From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 18 21:00:46 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Alternate spot available for RSX/RT11/RSTS/Unix freeware (including decus) References: <200204181507.QAA01286@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <3CBF7A4E.2141923E@compsys.to> >Stan Barr wrote: > >"Jay West" said: > > I spent a day or two putting up the complete freeware libraries for RT-11, > > RSX, and RSTS, including DECUS. This should be all the stuff that is on the > > CD's that Tim Shoppa has, as well as a bit of other stuff. > Terrific! I've just got simh 2.9.0 to compile and (10 minutes ago...) > seen RT-11 boot for the first time, so I could use some more stuff... Jerome Fine replies: If you want almost everything for RT-11 in one place, the CD can be downloaded as well. ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ Don't forget to also download MD5SUMS and do an MD5 check before you burn the CD. If anyone who does not have high speed tries, these are 650 MByte CD images. At 5 KBytes per second, it can take more than 24 hours, but still acceptable. I am working a method of being able to hardware boot RT-11 directly from a CD in addition to using the same DSK under the ISO file structure. I will include those instructions under /RT-11/ when they are complete. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 13:04:32 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020419000058.16862@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tom Owad wrote: > Actually, I have a fourth one (IIRC, I got it from a list member) that I > haven't put on Applefritter yet. It's like Sellam's Systematics in > design concept, but is shoddier and has a back like the tempest SE/30. > Curiously, like the SE/30, this tempest Mac is also missing it's > motherboard and back panel. Does anybody know if motherboard removal was > a common practice in decomissioning tempest computers? By the way, I'd just like to say AppleFritter ROCKS! It is an extremely well done site and a lot of fun to visit. Highly recommended! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 13:06:20 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: <200204190040.RAA28374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are > > > on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) > > > If I remember correctly, for the orginal King's Quest for the PCjr, it was > > a single floppy that you booted from---it didn't have MS-DOS and it took > > over the machine entirely. > > Nuts. I have King's Quest in a later incarnation that *does* still have PCjr > support (apparently) but it all won't fit on a 360K floppy, which led to > my earlier question about HD drives in jrs. > > I wonder if there's a way to get an image of that disk ... Jeez, Cam, you keep coming up with requests that I can fill but just don't have time for :) If I remember the next time I'm at my warehouse, I'll check my PC software boxes and see if it turns up without too much fuss. I could swear I just boxed an original copy of King's Quest for the PCjr a few weeks ago. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 13:07:48 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020418211031.0082b100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Joe wrote: > About a month ago I picked up a Tempest Pentium PC with a bad CPU > card that still had the drive in it. It had a VERY expensive 1553 Bus > analyzer card in it and ALL the (Classified) software was still on the > drive. I offloaded 1553 files and wiped and reformatted the drive. Hmm, you published this publicly? Watch out for black helicopters hovering over your house in the next few weeks :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Thu Apr 18 21:06:16 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: HP 9114B floppy & Q610 dos card & Annex 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > - Powermac 6100 DOS (486) card with 6100 riser, but no dongle That seems to actually be for a Quadra 610. It appears to be a 486SX-25 with 8M of RAM. -- Pat From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 13:12:16 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <126407471152.20020418210417@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Wednesday, April 17, 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > If a formula for determining classic computer cool factor gets finalized > > ... We need a unit or label for this number. > > Are you annoyed that no one has suggested naming the unit the 'Ismail'? :-) That's reserved for when they codify how many flames a person can spit out per minute. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 21:13:07 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? In-Reply-To: <200204172022.VAA25548@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Stan Barr wrote: > Tothwolf said: > > > Basically, where are the good boatanchor related mailing lists and > > resources at? I'm looking for resources on restoration and building home > > brew tube based gear. > > I presume you're familiar with rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors ;-) That I am. I haven't been reading it lately since the signal to noise ratio (all the epay ads) got to be too much trouble to filter. > > I wasn't able to find out all that much about the 'CS', other than it > > seems to have been made between 1945 and 1946. > > Raymond S. Moore's book agrees with the dates and says it's the same > as the NC-2-40C but with frequencies 0.2 to 0.4 and 1 to 30 MHz > instead of 0.49 to 30 MHz. Thanks for the verification. That book sounds like one I should add to my library, although it looks to be out of print. Do you have any ideas as to why National chose to produce two very similar models with different frequency ranges? Perhaps the CS was just an "improved", next-generation model? -Toth From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 18 21:14:23 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020418205926.00826300@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020418211423.00a2a5c0@ubanproductions.com> Sure, take a look at P13 in these photos: http://www.ubanproductions.com/dec_connector.html --tom At 08:59 PM 4/18/02 -0400, you wrote: >Tom, > > Can you post a picture of one? One of the places that I scrounge at has baskets full of cut off cable connectors. I might be able to find some there. > > > Joe > >At 05:11 PM 4/18/02 -0500, you wrote: >>I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male connector >>shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. It is also used >>to plug into the H744 (and other) power supplies. >> >>The DEC part number is 12-09340-00 which might also be a Mate-N-Lock >>1-480460-0 >> >>I would like to find 12-24 of them. I am assuming that if I can find the >>shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. >> >>--tom >> >> > > > From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 18 21:21:56 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) References: Message-ID: <3CBF7F44.2F3684CE@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >This isn't mine, but I wish it was :-) > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2017593099 > >Chad Fernandez > >Michigan, USA > No kidding! However, keep in mind this is one of the older Mentec ones > from the late 80's. The M1 is the board to have as it's ~4x the speed of a > /93. Of course just about any Mentec CPU board would be nice, and I > wouldn't mind having one. For a little info on Mentec boards take a look > at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/processo.htm Jerome Fine replies: I doubt that the M90 is any faster than the DEC PDP-11/93 since both use the same J11 chip. Not the M1 is definitely faster, although I would not necessarily believe the estimate that Mentec provides - DEC also used to exaggerate the speed of a new board. Also, does anyone know the cost of the M1? On the other hand, I am able to run at about TEN times the speed of an 11/93 when I use just a Pentium III 750 under Windows 98 and Ersatz-11. The hobby version of Ersatz-11 is free and even the commercial version of Ersatz-11 is probably less (at $ US 2999) than an M1 CPU. Not that there is anything wrong with an M1 if a real PDP-11 Qbus system is required. But it is possible to use a PCI <=> Qbus adapter when Ersatz-11 does not support the emulation of specific PDP-11 modules that are required. In that case, the increased speed of Ersatz-11 (up to TWENTY times the speed of an 11/93 with a Pentium IV 2 GHz (sigh and yeck at the same time) shows that software emulation has great advantages over a hardware solution for some applications. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 21:24:30 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: 6800 processor systems (was: Re: BIE 4410) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Does the 'front panel' connect to the microprocessor's bus (in other > > > words could it edit memory directly), or is it linked to I/O chips and is > > > therefore entirely software driven? The second seems more likely, alas. > > > > (Again) It (appears to) connect to the 6821's. > > In which case, it's likely to be software-driven, and thus not a (true) > frontpanel for the 6800 system. More likely to be controls for whatever > machine this unit wwas once connected to. All this talk about the 6800 lately has gotten me to pull out a pair of 6800 cpu cards I had that were once for a 1970s traffic signal system. I stripped a bunch of parts off of them back in the early 90s, but strangely enough, I still had about 95% of the parts. I'm getting ready to put them back together, and wondered if anyone had ever seen any of these? These two cards each use a 72 position card edge connector for everything, and don't have any ROMs on board at all. Anyone have any suggestions as to what to make from them? They have a 6800 and a 6850 on board, along with a fair amount of 7400 series support logic. I'll take some pictures of them once I clean the boards up some. -Toth From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Thu Apr 18 21:31:24 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship In-Reply-To: <011801c1e6e9$d4106fe0$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020418223124.010ec0a8@pop1.epm.net.co> At 10:00 AM 4/18/02 -0500, you wrote: >I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC required... > >"My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" > >Jay West Here's mine: "My computer has broken more vertebrae than yours" -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 21:37:22 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/apple-1-rear.jpg > > > (this one has had a couple sockets replaced) > > > > Well, I can spot at least one replaced dip socket, bottom right corner of > > that image, second chip from the right edge. Which others did you notice? > > That is one of the monitor ROM sockets, which was defective and was > replaced when the seller first got it (if you haven't read the > background info, it was donated in non-working condition to the > Homebrew Computer Club to raise funds, and he paid something like $80 > for it, which was a real good deal even back then). He also replaced > the keyboard socket with an Augut socket that was much more robust > (second row from the bottom, fourth socket over). That explains why the joints on monitor ROM socket are uneven and not defluxed. (If you decide to deflux it, be careful what type of cleaner you use -- some melt certain plastics.) The Augut socket was indeed a good idea if the keyboard was unplugged regularly. Those copper alloy leaf sockets won't hold up very well to that kind of (ab)use. > > I actually would have expected any repairs on a "rare" Apple I to have > > been much cleaner than what I see from that image, but it's possible they > > were made by the last owner before he figured out it was "rare". It also > > These were made contemporaneously, i.e. in 1976 when it was just > another computer that needed hacking. That makes sense. I didn't think about when the repairs were made till after I sent my last email. > > seems quite possible to me that one person (especially considering what I > > read of the board's history) with very good soldering skills and the > > proper tools did the initial build of the board, and someone else made a > > few repairs later on. > > It was wave soldered. The repairs were made by the seller way back in > 1976. I think you are right, I didn't notice the uneven solder on the power planes near the voltage regulator right away. > One of the problems with making an Apple-1 replication is that the > video shift registers are next to impossible to find. One part of the > lot of the Apple-1 auctioned in 2000 was a set of spare shift > registers. Those are the only I've ever seen not in an Apple-1 board. What kind of chip do they use? Is it a custom Apple designed chip, or something that has just been abandoned by the original chip manufacturers? If it is the later, there are a couple companies out there now who could reproduce the chip (in 500-1000 unit batches). I don't think the cost to make an Apple I reproduction would be all that bad, especially compared to what an original Apple I system typically sells for ;) -Toth From vaxman at earthlink.net Thu Apr 18 21:36:03 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <200204182310.QAA26895@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: 'c' is 299792458 m/s 'C' is a constant added after integration On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >X-Server-Uuid: e4c4d26a-1188-11d5-b029-00508be35655 > >X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to > owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f > >From: "Carlini, Antonio" > >To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" > >Subject: RE: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) > >Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 15:23:41 -0700 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >X-WSS-ID: 10A18E9F850016-01-02 > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > >Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the > > >abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the > >Coulomh. > > > > Twas a coulomb when I were at skool ... > > > > My Calculator says C is 299792458. > Dwight > > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 21:39:24 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: VCF Apple-1 Auction 4/19-4/21 In-Reply-To: <180331054170.20020417235040@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > Why resort to scanning, X-raying, etc.? Has anyone thought about just > asking Woz for the information? I wonder if the original plans have survived all these years? Would Apple Computer still hold the copyright and be reluctant to share the plans even if they do still exist? This is an idea that deserves further investigation... -Toth From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 21:57:33 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <3CBF7F44.2F3684CE@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Qbus system is required. But it is possible to use a PCI <=> Qbus > adapter when Ersatz-11 does not support the emulation of > specific PDP-11 modules that are required. In that case, the > increased speed of Ersatz-11 (up to TWENTY times the speed > of an 11/93 with a Pentium IV 2 GHz (sigh and yeck at the same > time) shows that software emulation has great advantages over > a hardware solution for some applications. Except that a real PDP-11 will probably be a good deal more stable than a PC. And how are PC's running windows at things like realtime data acquisition? Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 18 22:06:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Relative Value of PGDP-11 CPUs; Was Re: Guys take a look... In-Reply-To: <3CBF7F44.2F3684CE@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Not the M1 is definitely faster, although I would not necessarily believe > the estimate that Mentec provides - DEC also used to exaggerate the > speed of a new board. Also, does anyone know the cost of the M1? I dunno, but I now know what a standard DEC 11/93 board is worth. Somebody offered me a TQK50 _and_ an RQDX3 for a KDJ11-EB this week. He says he also has a KA650, but couldn't quite trade straight across for that.... Doc - fairly disgusted, greatly amused. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 18 22:07:51 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020418223124.010ec0a8@pop1.epm.net.co> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Carlos Murillo wrote: > "My computer has broken more vertebrae than yours" My computer came on more pallets than yours. Doc From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 18 21:06:09 2002 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:32:40 +0000 (UTC) . Message-ID: In message , Sellam Ismai l writes: >How about calling it a Babbage? That was my thought as well, with possible runners up of the Zuse, the Aiken, the Eckert or the Mauchley. Brian L. Stuart From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 22:24:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) References: Message-ID: <3CBF8E09.EC0B3278@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > Qbus system is required. But it is possible to use a PCI <=> Qbus > > adapter when Ersatz-11 does not support the emulation of > > specific PDP-11 modules that are required. In that case, the > > increased speed of Ersatz-11 (up to TWENTY times the speed > > of an 11/93 with a Pentium IV 2 GHz (sigh and yeck at the same > > time) shows that software emulation has great advantages over > > a hardware solution for some applications. > > Except that a real PDP-11 will probably be a good deal more stable than a > PC. And how are PC's running windows at things like realtime data > acquisition? > > Peace... Sridhar My computer ( 600 Mhz ?? ) states not to use the seriel port faster than 9600 because the internal modem uses the irq line. sigh! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 18 22:28:57 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! Message-ID: <200204190328.AA19664@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:45:50 -0700 > From: cdl@proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! > > It's sort of standard DEC for a parallel interface. > > CSR + 2 is the output buffer, connected to connector J1 > Bits in CSR+2 are read/write to the CPU > > CSR + 4 is the input buffer, connected to connector J2 > Bits in CSR+4 are read-only to the CPU > > CSR has the usual INT_ENB A at <6> and INT_ENB A at <5> > INT_ENB AND REQ makes an interrupt. Interrupt A at VEC, B at VEC+4. > > Information from "microcomputer interfaces handbook 1980" > EB-17723-20 Add-on to my own post. While driving home I remembered something that has bothered me about DEC parallel interfaces (DR11, DRV11) for nearly 30 years. Why couldn't they make the programming model the same as the single-channel serial interface? Input control CSR Input data CSR+2 Output control CSR+4 Output data CSR+6 Then you could use the same software driver for an 8-bit parallel device or an 8-bit serial device. Just plug in a different bit of hardware. Actually the Heathkit 16-bit parallel Qbus card was like that. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From foo at siconic.com Thu Apr 18 14:31:52 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > In message , Sellam Ismai > l writes: > >How about calling it a Babbage? > > That was my thought as well, with possible runners up of > the Zuse, the Aiken, the Eckert or the Mauchley. Well, Zuse beat them all :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 18 22:41:19 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Relative Value of PGDP-11 CPUs; Was Re: Guys take a look... In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 18, 2002 10:06:15 PM Message-ID: <200204190341.g3J3fJe09230@shell1.aracnet.com> > I dunno, but I now know what a standard DEC 11/93 board is worth. > Somebody offered me a TQK50 _and_ an RQDX3 for a KDJ11-EB this week. He > says he also has a KA650, but couldn't quite trade straight across for > that.... > > Doc - fairly disgusted, greatly amused. I'm not sure what the current value of a 11/93 board is, but offering you a TQK50 and a RQDX3 for one is insulting! It's definitly worth a lot more than either of those or a KA650! Zane From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 18 22:49:41 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <3CBF8E09.EC0B3278@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > Qbus system is required. But it is possible to use a PCI <=> Qbus > > > adapter when Ersatz-11 does not support the emulation of > > > specific PDP-11 modules that are required. In that case, the > > > increased speed of Ersatz-11 (up to TWENTY times the speed > > > of an 11/93 with a Pentium IV 2 GHz (sigh and yeck at the same > > > time) shows that software emulation has great advantages over > > > a hardware solution for some applications. > > > > Except that a real PDP-11 will probably be a good deal more stable than a > > PC. And how are PC's running windows at things like realtime data > > acquisition? > > My computer ( 600 Mhz ?? ) states not to use the seriel port faster than > 9600 because the internal modem uses the irq line. sigh! *shakes head* Pathetic. Peace... Sridhar From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 18 22:52:24 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector Message-ID: <200204190352.AA19712@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 20:59:26 -0400 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Joe > Subject: Re: 20mA serial cable connector > In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> > > Tom, > > Can you post a picture of one? One of the places that I scrounge at has baskets full of cut off cable connectors. I might be able to find some there. > > > Joe > > At 05:11 PM 4/18/02 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male connector > >shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. It is also used > >to plug into the H744 (and other) power supplies. > > > >The DEC part number is 12-09340-00 which might also be a Mate-N-Lock > >1-480460-0 > > > >I would like to find 12-24 of them. I am assuming that if I can find the > >shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. Some web browsing shows me that Mate-N-Lock pins are still available, but the flat connector shells seem to be gone. On the Compaq web site there are some cables with Mate-N-Lock on one end and various other connectors on the other end, for use with LA30's. I tried to search the Compaq site for Mate-N-Lock but it crashed my Netscape 6, as usual. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Apr 18 15:45:05 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: NEC V20 and Rainbow (was: NEC V-20 was: Native CP/M) In-Reply-To: <20020418051001.IYHS3633.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3CBEEA01.17750.B392306@localhost> Eminently reasonable. I keep neglecting to check out the retailers especially Jameco which always has interesting things at reasonable prices. Thanks Lawrence > > From: Lawrence Walker > > > I keep hoping I'll find a cheap stash of V-20s to use on about 3 or 4 of > my > > boxes, altho they come up fairly reasonable on EPay from time to time. > > Is US $2.95 reasonable? Jameco sells this ancient IC. > > Glen > 0/0 > lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From mhstein at canada.com Thu Apr 18 23:09:47 2002 From: mhstein at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:47 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <01C1E736.86A82020@mse-d03> Sounds like a worthwhile project. Can't tell you why they used the 6520, can only speculate, same as you, that it's intended to sit on the 6500 bus while the DL1416s are a little more generic and might not interface directly without some additional logic & decoding anyway and using up more address space to boot. Also, since they brought a number of signals out to the display board that were not used, I suppose they might have intended to provide maximum flexibility; I'd think that no matter what signals & timing a display might require, you can generate it with the PIA and the wiring would be there, while you might not have what you need available on the bus without some extra glue anyway. BTW, I've used 6821s & 6520s interchangeably as well without problems. Not sure what you're looking for; the E & F ROMS are very well documented in the separate monitor manual which is on R Cini's site AFAIK (and in your care package waiting to go out), and if you wanted machine-readable source, the AIM itself should easily be able to disassemble the ROMs & send the source out on the serial port for capture. I've done some hacking of the monitor; my main accomplishment was to reverse & turn the printing upside down to allow mounting the board vertically with the tape feeding down, some graphic stuff, and trivial stuff like autostarting the user program, etc. I wouldn't think that the software to drive an LCD display would be very difficult; as I recall, there are hooks and vectors in place for user I/O. Of course even as it is, using the TTY switch the display is echoed out the serial port, but cursor movement codes might be incompatible with an ASCII Serial display. And I did find some extra DL1416s, although that won't help you with the unit that doesn't have a display board mike -------------Original Message-------------- Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Ethan Dicks Subject: AIM-65 displays I am evaluating building a replacement display for the AIM-65 that does not use the DL1416. I have several modern options - a 20x1 LCD is cheap enough, as are more modern 4-char ASCII LED displays. The interface is somewhat trivial - the connector on the AIM-65 mainboard has enough signals to talk to a 6520 PIA (since that's what is on the normal display board to begin with). There are couple of angles to pursue... I have successfully tested a Motorola 6821 in place of the Rockwell 6520 in a real AIM-65. Since I have a few 6520s and many 6821s, that's a win. Either way, it's trivial to hang a display off of the 6502 bus without a PIA in the way. I'm curious if anyone knows why they bothered to put a 6520 on the display card? Did they want to keep the bus loading to a small, known quantity? If so, then I'll consider that any ASCII LED solution I come up with needs to have appropriate signal conditioning. I can't see how a modern LCD display would load the bus any worse than a 6520, so it might be worth the direct approach. So... the hardware is no big deal. The software, though, could be lots more work. I have real ROMs and ROM images. Are there any sources to the AIM-65 ROMs that are in a state to be compiled back into working, matching binaries? If I'm going to change the nature of the display, the code will have to follow. If the code is changing, then there's no reason I can't experiment with a multi-line display - I have a 20x4 VCD and a 20X4 LCD display already in hand. I think I can locate a 40x2 in my junk box, but at first, I'll probably ignore the right half and if I used it, treat it like a 20x2. Is there anyone out there who has done any real AIM-65 hacking? I can start from zero if I have to, but if there's any preexisting work out there, I'd like to see about starting ahead of zero. - -ethan From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 23:14:09 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204190109.g3J19xQ05942@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > Hard Drives are being reformatted with one of those secure wiping > programs and then opened and smashed. Here in Houston, one place drills holes in them with a 1/2" drill. Another place dumps box loads of them into an industrial chipping machine. I can verify these...I've seen it, and it isn't a pretty sight :/ -Toth From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 18 23:20:42 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 18, 2 06:06:20 pm" Message-ID: <200204190420.VAA20812@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Nuts. I have King's Quest in a later incarnation that *does* still have PCjr > > support (apparently) but it all won't fit on a 360K floppy, which led to > > my earlier question about HD drives in jrs. > > > > I wonder if there's a way to get an image of that disk ... > > Jeez, Cam, you keep coming up with requests that I can fill but just don't > have time for :) > > If I remember the next time I'm at my warehouse, I'll check my PC software > boxes and see if it turns up without too much fuss. I could swear I just > boxed an original copy of King's Quest for the PCjr a few weeks ago. That would be great! How do you manage to come up with these things? If it's more convenient to just E-mail a disk image, that's fine too (with luck there's no copy protection too stringent on it :-). Appreciated as always, -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 18 23:21:16 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 18, 2 06:06:20 pm" Message-ID: <200204190421.VAA23892@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Whoops, that was meant for private mail. Grrr. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 18 23:26:07 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: King's Quest and the PCjr In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Apr 18, 2 08:35:39 pm" Message-ID: <200204190426.VAA24730@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Would someone who has the PCjr King's Quest disks tell me which files are > >on which disk? (Or, if it's just one disk, what files are on it?) > > Here's the 3.5" disk version of King's Quest from 1987, which > still supported the PCjr graphics. The disk is a 720k DD disk. When > it is installed to a hard disk and then run, it asks for the original > disks for verification. Yep, this is the same version I have. Bummer. Thanks, though. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my eyebrows are too close together." ----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 23:22:26 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Re: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <3CBF8E09.EC0B3278@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15551.39810.291736.282313@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 18, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > Except that a real PDP-11 will probably be a good deal more stable than a > > > PC. And how are PC's running windows at things like realtime data > > > acquisition? > > > > My computer ( 600 Mhz ?? ) states not to use the seriel port faster than > > 9600 because the internal modem uses the irq line. sigh! > > *shakes head* > > Pathetic. Pathetic indeed. The pdp-11/34a that I had when I was in high school...I think I babbled about that machine at one point. I had a DH11-AD mux in there (16 lines, modem control, DMA...a 9-slot backplane full of boards), it had my terminal and another terminal in the house, both running at 9600 baud, and a 1200 baud modem for dialin...It would keep up with me and two friends using kermit to move stuff back & forth, or hacking code (yay Swedish Pascal and DECUS C!) with no problems at all...three sessions, two at 9600 baud and one at 1200 baud...simultaneously. Without even feeling the bump. Why do people use PeeCees, again? Pathetic, indeed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 18 23:30:47 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Office Max events References: <17a.6f122b1.29f0cff2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CBF9D77.FA4C2EB8@ccp.com> Businesses are like that all over, not just Office Max. I once asked one of their people about a laplink cable and they had absolutely NO idea what I was talking about. Everybody takes the Wal-Mart approach to retailing . . the customer should know what he's getting, and offer no advice or suggestions. And never make promises you can't keep. You can raise a stink about that, but they really don't care, as long as the dollars keep flowing, and they will with or without your patronage. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > > Event #1 > > I went to OM earlier today to take pick up a UPS that was on sale. > Their ad from last Sunday's paper lists a unit at $20 off (and no > friggin' rebates to mess with). The ad listed the unit as 500VA. > > When I get to the store, the clerk points it out to me and the unit is > 350VA. I say whoa, it is listed in the ad as 500VA. Turns out they > list the model number for a 350VA unit and spec it at 500VA. I asked > to see the manager, who already knows me (more on that later). This > time I got stuck with the assistant manager. She states that it must > be a misprint and she can't be held responsible for printing errors. > > I don't mind saying that I am getting tired of employees who will not > take responsibilty. So I read her my riot act mentioning that she is > standing here as a representive of OM and in my eyes is responsible. > I also point to Staples (across the street) and mention the fact > that a young man over there was also not responsible and after my > complaint to Staples on their web sight, he got lectures from the > higher ups, not to mention the phone calls that I got from district > and regional managers seeking to make sure I became a satisfied > customer. > > Anyway, back to this gal at OM. I mentioned to her that listing the > model number of the 350VA unit and the spec of the 500VA unit might > be construed as "bait & switch". With that she looked up the price > of the 500VA unit and said she would sell it to me for 40 bucks off. > > Event #2 > > A few weeks ago I want to OM to buy another sale item. They had a > CD-R 100 pack listed for $40 with a $30 rebate. What caught my eye > was that they were 650 mb. My CD Burner drive is an earlier model, > and does not like these new-fangled 700 mb thingies. > > So I go into OM and can't find them. A clerk comes along and I show > him the ad and tell him that is what I want. He leads me to the big > display of 700 mb. I point to the ad and tell him I want what is > advertised, not these. You ever noticed how these clerks become > dumbfounded and clam up at this point. He suggests I talk to the > manager. I did and here again I mention that trying to substitute > 750 mb for the advertised 650 mb might be construed as "bait & switch". > With that she took my name and phone number and said she would get > back to me. She did, she called two days later and said she had > 2 100 packs for me. I indicated I only want the one because of the > rebate limit. She then explained that the 2nd one was complimentary > for my trouble. Now if I just get the rebate, that's 200 CD-R blanks > for $10. > > Event #3 > > Speaking of rebates. I bought some memory at OM and sent in the rebate. > Three months later I had not received the money. So I took all the > paperwork into the store. Lo and behold, they have a form for just > that. I filled it out and they gave me the $50 rebate right there. > Why don't they just do that in the first place? > > Why you ask am I still going into OM? In this town there just isn't > much else and they seem to have better sales. > > I share all of this because you need to watch out if you are dealing > with OM. If they try to pull a fast one, namely "bait & switch", then > call them on it. Maybe they will learn to get their ads right, or at > least you may get a deal. > > Mike From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 18 23:34:54 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Relative Value of PGDP-11 CPUs; Was Re: Guys take a look... In-Reply-To: <200204190341.g3J3fJe09230@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not sure what the current value of a 11/93 board is, but offering you a > TQK50 and a RQDX3 for one is insulting! It's definitly worth a lot more > than either of those or a KA650! Besides, I already _have_ both drive controllers, and a KA655. :) I must not have gotten all the turnip leaves out of my hair. Given the choice between being insulted and angry over it, or just laughing, I'd much rather laugh. Now, if I could just sell this bridge. Doc From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 18 23:45:16 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: <200204190445.g3J4jJQ07444@ns2.ezwind.net> >> Hard Drives are being reformatted with one of those secure wiping >> programs and then opened and smashed. > >Here in Houston, one place drills holes in them with a 1/2" drill. Another >place dumps box loads of them into an industrial chipping machine. I can >verify these...I've seen it, and it isn't a pretty sight :/ The thing I and the guy who told me about it were laughing at is how useless their "destruction" methods really were. They are using an off the shelf secure delete program (Norton?) and then opening the top of the HD and hitting it with a mallet to damage the platters. So what does this mean... well, I am sure one of those data recovery companies could still extract the info from the drive if someone was willing to pay the fee (which I would assume a rival company that really wanted the info, and was willing to bribe the trash hauler would be able to afford). The computers are (were? they may be done now) under guard and only accessable after the hauler has collected the contents of the dumpster and driven off property... I do know this first hand... I tried to make a midnight run to collect some of the PC remains since it was supposed to ONLY be the mobo and HD being trashed, that leaves lots of good parts for the picking... but I was stopped at the manned gate, where I could see the dumpster and a poor guard sitting by it reading a book... in the cold of winter... so he wasn't there for kicks... and no, the guard at the gate wouldn't look the other way for $100 which was all I could afford to offer (didn't try the garbage truck driver... too afraid it is a Soprano Special company). -chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 18 23:46:39 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 19, 2002 12:22:26 AM Message-ID: <200204190446.g3J4kdt11720@shell1.aracnet.com> > > On April 18, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > Except that a real PDP-11 will probably be a good deal more stable than a > > > > PC. And how are PC's running windows at things like realtime data > > > > acquisition? > > > > > > My computer ( 600 Mhz ?? ) states not to use the seriel port faster than > > > 9600 because the internal modem uses the irq line. sigh! > > > > *shakes head* > > > > Pathetic. > > Pathetic indeed. The pdp-11/34a that I had when I was in high > school...I think I babbled about that machine at one point. I had a > DH11-AD mux in there (16 lines, modem control, DMA...a 9-slot > backplane full of boards), it had my terminal and another terminal in > the house, both running at 9600 baud, and a 1200 baud modem for > dialin...It would keep up with me and two friends using kermit to move > stuff back & forth, or hacking code (yay Swedish Pascal and DECUS C!) > with no problems at all...three sessions, two at 9600 baud and one at > 1200 baud...simultaneously. Without even feeling the bump. > > Why do people use PeeCees, again? Pathetic, indeed. In this case a better question might be, why is he using an Internal modem? OTOH, it sounds as if he might only have one Serial Port and an internal modem, now that's pathetic! Still, I use ethernet a lot more than I do serial ports, though I did toss a 8-port DHV-11 (I think that's the right model) in the PDP-11/23+ I put together last week, along with the ethernet adapter. Still PC's aren't all bad, I've got a 1Ghz Pentium III that makes a very nice PDP-10 and PDP-11, I've had TOPS-10, TOPS-20, RT-11, and RSTS/E all running on it at the same time. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 23:57:22 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > My Calculator says C is 299792458. My calculator says that C is 12. From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 19 00:16:10 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <20020418233345.9713@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tom Owad wrote: > >> Wow, a unique machine that Sellam *doesn't* have! > >> > >> http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,51670,00.html > > > >It sounds like a lot of guessing and assuming, with no > >documentation. They claim it is the only Apple-produced > >Tempest Mac known, but there's no proof that the system > >was actually made by Apple and not some third-party. I think you will find that it was the work of a third party. The Tempest discipline was/is a very specialized one that requires special facilities, test equipment, AND experience, and was inherently a low volume operation - not the kind of thing that a computer manufacturer is likely to find profitable. Hence, third party. - don > The article is a bit fantastical with the black helicopters and all. > > My guess was that the SE/30 was built by Candes Systems (if I properly > read the label on the back), under license from Apple. ?If the Mac were > an Apple prototype (like Owen suggests), it would almost certainly be > labeled as such and would not have the Candes label. If it were an > official Apple product (as Bruce apparently believes), we'd know about > it. Claiming it was a confidential Apple product produced for the CIA or > some such agency sounds like fun, but is pretty unlikely. First, it is > unlikely Apple would have wanted to engage in the production of such a > low-production product. More probably, having recognized the existence > of this niche but not wanting to actively persue it, they would have > granted a smaller third party permission to build cases around Macintosh > motherboards Apple could have supplied. Apple has done similar (sort of) > with Dynamac and Outbound. Second, making a tempest Mac isn't hard. If > the military really wanted a tempest Macintosh and wanted the project to > remain confidential, they could have just slapped some metal around the > inside. There would have been no need to involve Apple. This licensing > theory has the potential to explain both the Apple logo and the lack of > awareness at Apple of the machine's existence. > > Tom > > Applefritter > www.applefritter.com > > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 00:25:04 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Office Max events In-Reply-To: <3CBF9D77.FA4C2EB8@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Businesses are like that all over, not just Office Max. I once asked > one of their people about a laplink cable and they had absolutely NO > idea what I was talking about. > > Everybody takes the Wal-Mart approach to retailing . . the customer > should know what he's getting, and offer no advice or suggestions. And > never make promises you can't keep. > > You can raise a stink about that, but they really don't care, as long as > the dollars keep flowing, and they will with or without your patronage. One word I am fond of throwing around in the presence of retail management is "misrepresentation". It usually gets their attention. Even at Wal-Mart. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 00:26:30 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <200204190446.g3J4kdt11720@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Still PC's aren't all bad, I've got a 1Ghz Pentium III that makes a > very nice PDP-10 and PDP-11, I've had TOPS-10, TOPS-20, RT-11, and > RSTS/E all running on it at the same time. But wouldn't you rather have a real DECsystem 20 and a real PDP-11, along with the space and power to use them properly? Wouldn't it be nice to run your emulator on better hardware? Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 00:28:36 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204190445.g3J4jJQ07444@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > The thing I and the guy who told me about it were laughing at is how > useless their "destruction" methods really were. > > They are using an off the shelf secure delete program (Norton?) and then > opening the top of the HD and hitting it with a mallet to damage the > platters. > > So what does this mean... well, I am sure one of those data recovery > companies could still extract the info from the drive if someone was > willing to pay the fee (which I would assume a rival company that really > wanted the info, and was willing to bribe the trash hauler would be able > to afford). IBM takes it's HDD's classified trade secret, "there's two other levels: IBM confidential, and IBM internal use only for which they don't go to these extremes) and dumps them through a crusher, then incinerates them. Peace... Sridhar From mranalog at attbi.com Fri Apr 19 01:01:11 2002 From: mranalog at attbi.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship Message-ID: <3CBFB2A7.1C1F1DDF@attbi.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. > ........ > What's _your_ "best" machine? I like this! Since all analog computers have a KByte*MIPS equal to zero, I have few computers with an infinite zuse. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog Analogrechner, calculateur analogique, calcolatore analogico, analoogrekenaar, komputer analogowy, analog bilgisayar, kampiutere ghiyasi, analoge computer. ========================================= From hhacker at ev1.net Fri Apr 19 01:37:58 2002 From: hhacker at ev1.net (William R. Buckley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Except that a real PDP-11 will probably be a good deal more stable than a > PC. And how are PC's running windows at things like realtime data > acquisition? > > Peace... Sridhar > Well, I have used WinNT4.0Workstation and Visual Basic 6 to obtain realtime data from a board interfaced to a quadrature signal as a means of measuring the height of gas turbine engine blades. It worked quite well, and I was easily able to make 500 such measurements per second. The board simply supplied the current value from the quadrature signal, and in no way supplied a time base for capturing the value. The time base came from the VB program. William R. Buckley From dave at naffnet.org.uk Fri Apr 19 01:34:14 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665FB@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CBFBA65.E696F461@naffnet.org.uk> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I > am > >not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the > >problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O > space, > >given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and > write to > >in order the drive the beastie... > > The necessary manuals are all available at: > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ > > Start with the OpenVMS VAX Device Support Manual > ( > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/PDF/OVMS_VAX_SUP_GD > .pdf ) > and the OpenVMS VAX Device Support Reference Manual > ( > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/PDF/OVMS_VAX_SUP_GD > .pdf ) > > Both of these are now in the archived section. > > The second one of these is basically > an introduction to writing a device > driver for OpenVMS VAX and > includes probably all the info > you need for the Qbus mapping > in Chapter 14. > > The Coinnect to Interrupt stuff in > Chapter 21 may be a useful introduction > if you've not done a full driver before. > It will show you how to map the > registers and respond to device > interrupts. Once you can do that > you should have the hang of talking > to devices on the Qbus and can move on > to doing a driver proper. > > Antonio From dave at naffnet.org.uk Fri Apr 19 01:40:37 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470665FB@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CBFBBE5.DA641C7@naffnet.org.uk> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I > am > >not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the > >problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O > space, > >given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and > write to > >in order the drive the beastie... > > The necessary manuals are all available at: > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/ > > Start with the OpenVMS VAX Device Support Manual > ( > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/PDF/OVMS_VAX_SUP_GD > .pdf ) > and the OpenVMS VAX Device Support Reference Manual > ( > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/PDF/OVMS_VAX_SUP_GD > .pdf ) > > Both of these are now in the archived section. > > The second one of these is basically > an introduction to writing a device > driver for OpenVMS VAX and > includes probably all the info > you need for the Qbus mapping > in Chapter 14. > > The Coinnect to Interrupt stuff in > Chapter 21 may be a useful introduction > if you've not done a full driver before. > It will show you how to map the > registers and respond to device > interrupts. Once you can do that > you should have the hang of talking > to devices on the Qbus and can move on > to doing a driver proper. > > Antonio Thanks for the pointers, Antionio - even though I have a "Grey Wall" it's nice to be able to update the information. When I consulted the Wall I found next to nothing on the DRV11, but I shall look in the 7.2 socs now that I know where they are!. Thanks once more, Dave From dave at naffnet.org.uk Fri Apr 19 01:46:09 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! References: <200204190045.AA19327@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: <3CBFBD30.5461652A@naffnet.org.uk> Carl Lowenstein wrote: > > From owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Thu Apr 18 15:17:12 2002 > > X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.ezwind.net: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f > > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:38:24 +0100 > > From: Dave Woodman > > Organization: The Nicely Naff Network > > X-Accept-Language: en > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a MicroVAX (BA123 enclosure, KA650 CPU) that I would like > > to put to work... to this end I have two M7941 (DRV11) parallel I/O > > cards that I would like to bring into service. The Micronotes say that > > this card is compatible with the 22-bit QBUS, and I have the Field > > Service print set so I can set the CSR and vectors to appropriate > > values. > > > > Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I am > > not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the > > problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O space, > > given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and write to > > in order the drive the beastie... > > It's sort of standard DEC for a parallel interface. > > CSR + 2 is the output buffer, connected to connector J1 > Bits in CSR+2 are read/write to the CPU > besides the data lines, J1 has some control bits > REQA which maps to CSR<15> and is read-only > NEWDATA, pulse output by CPU writing to CSR+2, > which should be used to clear REQA > CSR1 which is CSR<1>, read-write for device control > > CSR + 4 is the input buffer, connected to connector J2 > Bits in CSR+4 are read-only to the CPU > > J2 has control bits: > REQB mapped to CSR<7>, read-only > DATATRANS, pulse output by CPU reading CSR+4, > should be used to clear REQB > CSR0 which is CSR<0>, read-write for device control > > CSR has the usual INT_ENB A at <6> and INT_ENB A at <5> > INT_ENB AND REQ makes an interrupt. Interrupt A at VEC, B at VEC+4. > > Information from "microcomputer interfaces handbook 1980" > EB-17723-20 > > carl > -- > carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego > clowenstein@ucsd.edu Thanks Carl, for this and the later post. Hmm, Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook... IS this venerable document on line anywhere? I am guessing that it's aimed at the PDP11 et al, but Q-22 is Q-22, even if it is using older cards. Cheers, Dave. From hansp at aconit.org Fri Apr 19 02:26:47 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor source reconstruction References: <20020418161541.30491.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> <3CBEF909.1030702@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CBFC6B7.1030002@aconit.org> Latest version of monitor source : www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/monitor.txt PDF files of scanned pages : pages 1-47 : www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/amonrom1.pdf pages 48-97 : www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/amonrom2.pdf Pages done : 1-23, 46, 47, 56, 97 (27/97 = 28% done) Allocated : Hans Pufal 24 onwards Ethan Dicks 40-45 Dwight K Elvey 48-55 If you want to help out contact me off list for page numbers. -- hbp From paul at wccnet.org Fri Apr 19 03:27:18 2002 From: paul at wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: AIM ROMs Message-ID: I have the AIM monitor in ASCII format. Send me a message off-list if you want a copy e-mailed to you. Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 03:41:27 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <200204190445.g3J4jJQ07444@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > The thing I and the guy who told me about it were laughing at is how > useless their "destruction" methods really were. I've had the same discussion with people down here who were drilling holes in drives. Given enough time and effort, a large amount of data can still be extracted from those tortured drives. > They are using an off the shelf secure delete program (Norton?) and > then opening the top of the HD and hitting it with a mallet to damage > the platters. The places I've been around locally didn't even bother with wiping the drives off with software. I actually spent two full days one summer wiping data off ST-225 drives in two pallets of IBM PC/XT systems. It was strictly volunteer work, and I didn't get so much as a free lunch out of it. The two pallets of PC/XT systems sold for $5 each at auction 3 weeks later. I'd have bought them myself if I would have had the room, but I imagine some scrap metal dealer was the purchaser. > So what does this mean... well, I am sure one of those data recovery > companies could still extract the info from the drive if someone was > willing to pay the fee (which I would assume a rival company that > really wanted the info, and was willing to bribe the trash hauler > would be able to afford). Of course a good data recovery company could. But what percentage of these drives are going to have "confidential" data on them? I'd imagine only a small fraction of all those systems ever had anything "confidential" on them, and even those could be erased with software in such a manner as to make the data 99.9% (or more) unrecoverable. > The computers are (were? they may be done now) under guard and only > accessable after the hauler has collected the contents of the dumpster > and driven off property... I do know this first hand... I tried to > make a midnight run to collect some of the PC remains since it was > supposed to ONLY be the mobo and HD being trashed, that leaves lots of > good parts for the picking... but I was stopped at the manned gate, > where I could see the dumpster and a poor guard sitting by it reading > a book... in the cold of winter... so he wasn't there for kicks... and > no, the guard at the gate wouldn't look the other way for $100 which > was all I could afford to offer (didn't try the garbage truck > driver... too afraid it is a Soprano Special company). I've really been wondering what is happening to systems being sent to TDC (Texas Department of Corrections) down here in Texas. After SB1105 76(R) was passed in 1999, all state agencies or state funded groups have been required to send their "data processing equipment" (computers) to TDC. They are required to remove any data from the PC, so most just remove the hard drive (and don't reinstall the mounting bracket). They don't usually send TDC the monitors, keyboard, mice, or cables that go along with those systems. Strangely enough, they do send terminals to TDC. I really can't imagine how TDC plans to refurbish/resell stripped computers that lack their monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Here in Houston at least, I've seen everything from an Apple II or a Mac 128k to an IBM/360 packed up for shipment to TDC. Some scrap metal dealer or trash hauler must have a really sweet deal going with TDC... -Toth From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 03:53:58 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: References: <200204190446.g3J4kdt11720@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Still PC's aren't all bad, I've got a 1Ghz Pentium III that makes a >> very nice PDP-10 and PDP-11, I've had TOPS-10, TOPS-20, RT-11, and >> RSTS/E all running on it at the same time. > >But wouldn't you rather have a real DECsystem 20 and a real PDP-11, along >with the space and power to use them properly? Wouldn't it be nice to run >your emulator on better hardware? > >Peace... Sridhar There is no shortage of real PDP-11's around here, the biggest problem I have with them is a lack of air conditioning, and the cost of electricity. I've been using my /73 enough this month that I'm scared to see what the electric bill is going to be (thanks to the idiots in California, our rates up here are sky high). As for PDP-10's, I'm happy emulating them, though I wouldn't say no to a TOAD-1 :^) What can I say, I don't like big old disk drives. Something certain people on this list need to consider is that a properly constructed PC with a decent OS (of which there are many) is rock solid. The only reason the system I'm running the emulators on has had any downtime is for some power problems a month or so ago (since I don't have an UPS, my G4/450 PowerMac and Alpha's went down as well). If I move the emulators to better hardware it will probably be to a dual processor Xeon system I'm putting together. I just wish I'd had a spot to put the quad Xeon I passed on yesterday! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 04:27:26 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > There is no shortage of real PDP-11's around here, the biggest problem I > have with them is a lack of air conditioning, and the cost of electricity. > I've been using my /73 enough this month that I'm scared to see what the > electric bill is going to be (thanks to the idiots in California, our rates > up here are sky high). I hear that. > As for PDP-10's, I'm happy emulating them, though I wouldn't say no to a > TOAD-1 :^) What can I say, I don't like big old disk drives. With a little bit of doing, you can make a SCSI 10. > Something certain people on this list need to consider is that a > properly constructed PC with a decent OS (of which there are many) is > rock solid. The only reason the system I'm running the emulators on > has had any downtime is for some power problems a month or so ago > (since I don't have an UPS, my G4/450 PowerMac and Alpha's went down > as well). If I move the emulators to better hardware it will probably > be to a dual processor Xeon system I'm putting together. I just wish > I'd had a spot to put the quad Xeon I passed on yesterday! You do I have a point. I have a bunch of really nice PC's here, and they all hold their own versus various workstations. But, on the whole, the world of the PC definitely caters closer to the LCD than a lot of other kinds of hardware. Peace... Sridhar From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 19 05:20:35 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action Message-ID: If interested, you may watch the Apple-1 auction action here: http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/status.php The auction starts at 8:00 AM PDT. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 19 05:26:44 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: <20020419013251.GA11905@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <000a01c1e643$75246000$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> <1019073181.2261.10.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> <20020419013251.GA11905@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20020419122644.A414002@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 09:32:51PM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > My computer is more PERQish than yours, and hence more hackish. [...] Sounds like an interresting machine. Should I know what a PERQ is? If yes, URLs for input? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Apr 19 06:54:37 2002 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Office Max events Message-ID: <127.f85bea4.29f15f7d@aol.com> In a message dated 4/19/02 1:36:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: > One word I am fond of throwing around in the presence of retail management > is "misrepresentation". It usually gets their attention. Even at > Well, if you find a discrepency in a stores fliers, it's not only false advertisement (which most stores could care less about) but the big one to throw at them is it's also Mail Fraud (a federal offence)... -Linc. In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020419/b657d9e9/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 07:02:41 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Re: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) (Zane H. Healy) References: <200204190446.g3J4kdt11720@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <15552.1889.754634.148255@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, Zane H. Healy wrote: > There is no shortage of real PDP-11's around here, the biggest problem I Huh? Where are you? I think it's time for a road trip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 07:02:59 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Re: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) (Zane H. Healy) References: <200204190446.g3J4kdt11720@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <15552.1907.82426.79063@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, Zane H. Healy wrote: > There is no shortage of real PDP-11's around here, the biggest problem I Huh? Where are you? I think it's time for a road trip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Apr 19 07:05:11 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector References: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3CC007F7.33A69C5@gifford.co.uk> Tom Uban wrote: > I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male connector > shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. ... > I am assuming that if I can find the > shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on disk and tape drives. We just stuck the pins in the appropriate sockets and left it at that! Being careful not to pull on the wire, of course. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Apr 19 07:02:11 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: who says great deals can't be had on ebay! References: <000901c1e67e$4203fd30$9701a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CC00743.3E64D2C4@gifford.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I was going through the Ebay completed items just out of boredom, and > noticed that an HP2748B paper tape reader went for $5.00 back on April 6th. > That is one HECK of a deal!!! Well, as it happens, I got an HP2748B for *free* the other day. And, it included an extra read-head unit with an 8/6 track switch. Oh, and an HP 2100S, too! > I missed the 2748B, but wouldn't have bid anyways, I already have two :) I'm tempted to wire mine up to a more modern computer (hardly dare say "PC" :) and read paper tapes with it. Has anyone done that sort of thing? -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 19 07:15:53 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship Message-ID: <000401c1e79b$f45f06a0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Carlos Murillo >>"My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" >> >>Jay West > >"My computer has broken more vertebrae than yours" >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org Me: My computer, all mine! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 19 07:21:49 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac Message-ID: <001501c1e79c$c81f6660$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: blstuart@bellsouth.net >In message , Sellam Ismai >l writes: >>How about calling it a Babbage? > >That was my thought as well, with possible runners up of >the Zuse, the Aiken, the Eckert or the Mauchley. > >Brian L. Stuart Why not use them all! A box is HeightxWidthxDepth, so why not computers measured in ZusexEckartxAikenxMauchley with the possible corrosponding dimensions in real terms of memory, speed, storage, wordsize or some such. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 07:23:23 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CBEFA2C.2639.1D4328C1@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 18, 2 04:54:04 pm Message-ID: <3CC0285B.18302.21DF90B7@localhost> > > German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > > or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > a prety good symbol. There is already the Bq (Bequerel), > > so Babbage wouldn't be so nicht - the same is true for > > Calcula (C -> Celsius) and Ambit (A -> Ampere). > Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the > abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the Coulomh. It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the name is Degree Celsius (°C), and youre right, C is Coulomb. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 07:23:23 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit In-Reply-To: <1019164121.6365.14.camel@silke> References: Message-ID: <3CC0285B.14710.21DF90E6@localhost> > And, if we reduce the formula to SI units, we get: > (IPS are Instructions Per Second, right?) > m^4 * kg^2 > 1 Zuse = 1 ------------ > s^2 Errr... yes, if you go for the SI unitdescription for Z. ALthough for calculation purpose the named formula is correct. > which is sufficiently strange.... Jep Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 19 07:31:35 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit... Message-ID: <006501c1e79e$2567e760$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> On further thought I added to the idea. From: blstuart@bellsouth.net >In message , Sellam Ismai >l writes: >>How about calling it a Babbage? > >That was my thought as well, with possible runners up of >the Zuse, the Aiken, the Eckert or the Mauchley. > >Brian L. Stuart Why not use them all! A box is Cubic_volume=HeightxWidthxDepth, so why not computers measured in Zuse? Zuse = VonNeuman x Eckart x Aiken x Mauchley With the possible corrosponding dimensions in real terms of memory, speed, storage, wordsize or some such. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 07:43:13 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship In-Reply-To: <3CBFB2A7.1C1F1DDF@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3CC02D01.12465.21F1B8B9@localhost> > > cubic-foot-BTU/Hr-lb-amps per KByte-MIPS. > > ........ > > What's _your_ "best" machine? > I like this! > Since all analog computers have a KByte*MIPS > equal to zero, I have few computers with an > infinite zuse. Well, analog computers don't have zero IPS, but rather a _quite_ high operations speed, but never imediate. Thy need some time to get a stable result - and getting this result is one operation In fact the only operation this machine does at all. so if the plugged euation needs lets say 1 ms to stabilize, the Computer has 1 kIPS. Analog computers get (if not mechanical) a rather low Zuse number (still way above any modern machine), since they usualy are of small footprint, not very heavy and not realy power consuming - One thing is the momory wich is up for discusion. I'd equal each amplifier as a bit ... Or as said before set the memory value as 1. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Apr 19 07:44:33 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: More AIM Roms Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5B1@MAIL10> Hello, all: Last night I refreshed my Web site a bit, moving the Altair article and IBM PC BIOS listing to the main pages. I also posted two more AIM ROM sets, courtesy of Bill Dawson -- Forth and PL/65. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Apr 19 07:46:34 2002 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587A5B2@MAIL10> That is very cool. Thanks a lot. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 5:28 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: AIM-65 displays On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Cini, Richard wrote: > Dick: > > No, I don't have a machine-readable version of the listing. I > scanned the pages directly to PDF (using Acrobar Writer) but I never got > around to taking those scans and OCRing them to a text file (it was on the > RSN list). > > I did the PC BIOSes and the VIC Kernal ROM, The KIMs were done by > others. > > Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AIM-65 displays > > > You wouldn't happen to have a machine-readable (non-PDF) just text file of > the > monitor listing, whould you? > > Dick Adobe has been kind enough to solve this little problem for us. See following. - don The e-mail based PDF accessibility tools have been updated. You can now submit multiple URLs in a single e-mail message as well as submit PDF files to Adobe as MIME attachments. See below for more details. There are three e-mail options you can use to convert Adobe PDF documents to a format that is more accessible to screen reading software. The e-mail address you use depends on the conversion format you want, plain (ASCII) text or HTML, and whether the PDF is on the Internet or local media. Option 1 If the Adobe? PDF is on the Internet, you can mail the URL (Web address) of the PDF in the body of an e-mail message to pdf2txt@adobe.com (for plain text) or to pdf2html@adobe.com (for HTML). The convertor will mail back the translation of the PDF file. You can submit multiple URLs in a single e-mail.Tip: Some URLs are very long and cumbersome to type. Cutting and pasting the URL into the mail message will save you some keystrokes. Option 2 If the Adobe PDF is on local media, such as a hard drive, CD-ROM, or internal server, it can be submitted as a MIME attachment to an e-mail message. All converted Adobe PDF documents will be sent back to the sender as MIME attachments. For plain text, mail the attached PDF to pdf2txt@adobe.com. For HTML, mail the attached PDF to pdf2html@adobe.com. Option 3 A service hosted by Trace Research Center also allows you to convert Adobe PDF documents. You can either mail the URL of the Adobe PDF or attach the Adobe PDF document itself to your e-mail message and send it to pdf2txt@sun.trace.wisc.edu (for plain text) or to pdf2html@sun.trace.wisc.edu (for HTML). The convertor will mail back the translation of the PDF file. From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Fri Apr 19 08:03:21 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: <200204190109.g3J19xQ05942@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020419090321.01100498@pop1.epm.net.co> At 11:14 PM 4/18/02 -0500, you wrote: >Here in Houston, one place drills holes in them with a 1/2" drill. Another >place dumps box loads of them into an industrial chipping machine. I can >verify these...I've seen it, and it isn't a pretty sight :/ >-Toth I wonder if that sort of treatment might get some beryllium oxide dust airborne... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 08:09:24 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CBF2FFA.25152.1E1555EE@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC03324.21522.2209B1A0@localhost> > > His next machine, the Z4, although in size, weight and power > > like the Z3 is already 30 times faster, barely gets around a > > Kilozuse ... > I think your formula needs some serious tinkering. I think the lowest > number should reflect the most classic machine. Naaa - never. Usualy one assumes 'better' with higer numbers, and I think we agree that more classic is better. > The Zuse 1 should come out to 1 Zuse as others have suggested. So by > this measure, the Babbage Difference Engine should come out at something a > bit less than 1 Zuse. Naaa. The real relative value has to be determinated by the formula. And tweeking the formula to give a 1 to a specific combination is against the basic idea of nature defined values. > The Pentium III with 256MB and 10GB hard disk sitting on my desk should be > something in the TerraZuse range (or much higher). So this stupid Pentium is a 10^12 times more geeky then a Zuse ? Come on. This is the geeknes factor. If the pentium gets a nanozuse it's already way overrated. > We should also factor in user I/O. Machines that used front panels and > blinkenlights should have much lower (i.e. more classic) scores than those > that have keyboards and 16MB bit-mapped displays with 24 million colors > and what not. Machines with blikenlights are bigger and more heavy than modern workstations, so you got this included. If we use to arbitrarily citeria (like Display, MS ability, etc. pp. it looks less 'serious'. Also someone suggested to include things like bus wide, data pathes etc., but these are again measurements only true for some specific architectures. Also, htey realy don't metter for the Boah Ey (*) factor. Gruss H. (*) Boah Ey, sound of an educated person when confrontated with old hardware... -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From owad at applefritter.com Fri Apr 19 08:14:40 2002 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020419131440.25459@mail.lafayette.edu> >By the way, I'd just like to say Applefritter ROCKS! It is an extremely >well done site and a lot of fun to visit. > >Highly recommended! :) Thank you, Sellam! :) Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From owad at applefritter.com Fri Apr 19 08:19:19 2002 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: TEMPEST equipment (was: Re: Secret Mac) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020419131919.28371@mail.lafayette.edu> >I think you will find that it was the work of a third party. The >Tempest discipline was/is a very specialized one that requires special >facilities, test equipment, AND experience, and was inherently a low >volume operation - not the kind of thing that a computer manufacturer is >likely to find profitable. Hence, third party. So where did this test equipment get to? Come on, guys, I want to see someone read CRT emanations! :) Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 08:19:10 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC0285B.18302.21DF90B7@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > > > or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > > a prety good symbol. There is already the Bq (Bequerel), > > > so Babbage wouldn't be so nicht - the same is true for > > > Calcula (C -> Celsius) and Ambit (A -> Ampere). > > > Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the > > abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the Coulomh. > > It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the > name is Degree Celsius (°C), and youre right, C is Coulomb. Coulombs aren't derived. Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 08:24:16 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CC036A0.29226.22174BFD@localhost> > > > > German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > > > > or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > > > a prety good symbol. There is already the Bq (Bequerel), > > > > so Babbage wouldn't be so nicht - the same is true for > > > > Calcula (C -> Celsius) and Ambit (A -> Ampere). > > > Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the > > > abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the Coulomh. > > It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the > > name is Degree Celsius (oC), and youre right, C is Coulomb. > Coulombs aren't derived. Coulombs are defined as As (Ampere Seconds) and therefore derivated from the seven basic units (m,kg,s,A,K,mol,cd). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 08:33:21 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Speaking of Zuse Message-ID: <3CC038C1.18266.221F9FF2@localhost> Did I already mention that I will get a real (*1) Zuse machine next month ? The machine is a spare unit from the Leopard test facility and was used to collect data from a bunch of analog computers which where usedto measure various components of the finished tanks. ;) Gruss H. (*1) Well, it is a Siemens 404/3, but that's just a rebadged Zuse - Siemens bought Zuses company in 1967-69 -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 19 08:35:21 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Relative Value of PGDP-11 CPUs; Was Re: Guys take a look... References: Message-ID: <3CC01D19.C2805693@compsys.to> >Doc wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Now the M1 is definitely faster, although I would not necessarily believe > > the estimate that Mentec provides - DEC also used to exaggerate the > > speed of a new board. Also, does anyone know the cost of the M1? > I dunno, but I now know what a standard DEC 11/93 board is worth. > Somebody offered me a TQK50 _and_ an RQDX3 for a KDJ11-EB this week. He > says he also has a KA650, but couldn't quite trade straight across for > that.... Doc - fairly disgusted, greatly amused. Jerome Fine replies: I suspect that if you did make such a trade and then offered to make a trade based on 2 * (TQK50 + RQDX3) for one KDJ11-EB, the offer would be refused. That KDJ11-EB is still worth a fair bit. So while I did not use the "insulting" word, I don't think you have been offered a reasonable trade - in fact when I think about "insulting" as a description, I suggest that "stealing" might be a better description. But, then it is still just an 11/93 and unless you MUST have real PDP-11 hardware, it still runs at the speed of an 11/93 as compared to Ersatz-11 on a Pentium IV 2 GHz which will be about 20 times as fast. For development work, Ersatz-11 is usually OK, but I know of an application where even a PCI <=> Unibus Adapter used with Ersatz-11 does not work correctly. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Fri Apr 19 08:38:54 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. Message-ID: Hi All again. I have to say the Vax I got last week has been heaps of fun, picked up a couple of bits for it today, like about 20 backup tapes (unfortunatly not TK50 tapes) And a Nice VT420 Terminal. Anyway decided to let VMS wait for a little before I try and learn this odd but interesting system, (I am going to be joind decus so I can get new VMS media as the machine didn't come with any) so I have had a look at the other avalible OSes that are avalible for the VAX. A quick question was ULTRIX ever avalible for the uVAX 3100/80? The two "free" operating systems that seem to be avalible for the 3100/80 are NetBSD and OpenBSD (there seems to be a version of linux but it seems to be quite imature.) I now have had a play with both (and If anyone ever needs a hand setting up either of these just give me a yell.) The NetBSD install was realy easy, I booted the vax via the network, and then did a [ctrl] + [z] and then using ftp pulled the .tgz files to the vax and installed the os from the local hard drive. The only issue was that the NetBSD install was sparse to say the least, and after compiling a couple of things (which was quite slow, but no where as slow as my first linux pc ;) I decided to give OpenBSD a go. OpenBSD is great, still it doesn't have all that I want, but has a lot more than NetBSD. The install is a little hairy in places, and it took me a while to configure the FreeBSD i386 box I am using for a boot server (the OpenBSD net boot process is a little differnt that NetBSD) but the install went painlessly. To sum up, and sorry if this is a little off topic. If anyone is looking for something other than VMS to run on their Vaxes, I would reccomend OpenBSD over NetBSD. I Hope I havent bored you too much.... Benjamin From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Apr 19 08:45:15 2002 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Secret Mac References: <200204190109.g3J19xQ05942@ns2.ezwind.net> <3.0.2.32.20020419090321.01100498@pop1.epm.net.co> Message-ID: <3CC01F65.8D15371F@eoni.com> Here's how a defense contractor cleaned a tempest system's hard drive of secret SAR (not confidential) data after each use: 1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. 2.) Low level format 3.) WipeDisk three more times. Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. Jim From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 19 08:57:21 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:48 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) References: <3CBF8E09.EC0B3278@jetnet.ab.ca> <15551.39810.291736.282313@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <008301c1e7aa$20ac3da0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Why do people use PeeCees, again? Pathetic, indeed. I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it took over 30 Minutes to write! Pathetique! John A. From kentborg at borg.org Fri Apr 19 08:59:59 2002 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: fix for 33 teletype In-Reply-To: <200204182122.OAA26868@clulw009.amd.com>; from dwightk.elvey@amd.com on Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:22:14PM -0700 References: <200204182122.OAA26868@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20020419095959.C21727@borg.org> On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 02:22:14PM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I was just trying to think of what I could > use to replace the hammer of a model 33. Mine > had turned to crumbs. I think one of the stick > on rubber feet for projects boxes should work. > Dwight And I'm still here looking for an ASR33. -kb, the Kent who tries not to mope. From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 19 09:07:20 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <000701c1e7ab$85c35740$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > German(*), but rather because there is still no basic > > > > or derivated SI unit starting with Z, so Z would give > > > > a prety good symbol. There is already the Bq (Bequerel), > > > > so Babbage wouldn't be so nicht - the same is true for > > > > Calcula (C -> Celsius) and Ambit (A -> Ampere). > > > > > Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the > > > abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the Coulomh. > > > > It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the > > name is Degree Celsius (C), and youre right, C is Coulomb. > > Coulombs aren't derived. Well, the 'erg' is derived... it's also sick... That is, it's a dyin' centimeter... And in what it pleases me to think of as my mind, that's a joule of a pun... ;) From rschaefe at gcfn.org Fri Apr 19 09:27:05 2002 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (Robert F Schaefer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64511.128.146.70.146.1019226425.squirrel@www.gcfn.org> > Hi All again. > > I have to say the Vax I got last week has been heaps of fun, picked up > a couple of bits for it today, like about 20 backup tapes > (unfortunatly not TK50 tapes) And a Nice VT420 Terminal. > > Anyway decided to let VMS wait for a little before I try and learn this > odd but interesting system, (I am going to be joind decus so I can get > new VMS media as the machine didn't come with any) so I have had a > look at the other avalible OSes that are avalible for the VAX. > > A quick question was ULTRIX ever avalible for the uVAX 3100/80? > > The two "free" operating systems that seem to be avalible for the > 3100/80 are NetBSD and OpenBSD (there seems to be a version of linux > but it seems to be quite imature.) > > I now have had a play with both (and If anyone ever needs a hand > setting up either of these just give me a yell.) > > The NetBSD install was realy easy, I booted the vax via the network, > and then did a [ctrl] + [z] and then using ftp pulled the .tgz files > to the vax and installed the os from the local hard drive. The only > issue was that the NetBSD install was sparse to say the least, and > after compiling a couple of things (which was quite slow, but no where > as slow as my first linux pc ;) I decided to give OpenBSD a go. Pkgsrc is your friend. Ckeck http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/ for your software needs. Unlike the ``Distros'' of the Penguin the *BSD's are just BSD, with just the standard tools you can expect to find on most/all unix platforms > > OpenBSD is great, still it doesn't have all that I want, but has a lot > more than NetBSD. The install is a little hairy in places, and it took > me a while to configure the FreeBSD i386 box I am using for a boot > server (the OpenBSD net boot process is a little differnt that NetBSD) > but the install went painlessly. > > To sum up, and sorry if this is a little off topic. If anyone is > looking for something other than VMS to run on their Vaxes, I would > reccomend OpenBSD over NetBSD. OpenBSD _is_ NetBSD for the most part. It branched a few years back, but I don't think you can even say they went their seperate ways-- they still share code back and forth. If you want to run the same OS on most of you hardware I recommend NetBSD. It suits my sun3, sun4, hp300, nvax, i386, & m68k mac just fine... > > I Hope I havent bored you too much.... > > > Benjamin Bob From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 09:28:08 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC036A0.29226.22174BFD@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the > > > name is Degree Celsius (oC), and youre right, C is Coulomb. > > > Coulombs aren't derived. > > Coulombs are defined as As (Ampere Seconds) and therefore derivated > from the seven basic units (m,kg,s,A,K,mol,cd). But A are defined as C/s, right? C are just derived in terms of eV, aren't they? Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 19 09:47:56 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > With a little bit of doing, you can make a SCSI 10. A little more than a little bit. Quite a few people have looked into this, some actually started to do something about it, but no magic boxes have ever appeared (although some time ago there was a commercial concern making them - $$$$$$$!). It is far more than a simple project. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 19 09:57:38 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: apple 1 Message-ID: <3CC03062.F5CB0FD@jetnet.ab.ca> Surfing the web for other stuff I came across this computer ad. http://www.applefritter.com/apple1/advert/advert.jpg The begining of the end for good old lights and switches. :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From chd at nktelco.net Fri Apr 19 10:58:33 2002 From: chd at nktelco.net (chd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head Message-ID: <0419102105833.0.0997050815@mailserver.nktelco.net> Is there a source for new(er) ASR33 print heads? Mine has many of the characters worn/damaged. -chuck From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Apr 19 09:57:31 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066602@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. >2.) Low level format >3.) WipeDisk three more times. > >Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. If you did: 4) Smash disk into small pieces and heat until molten slag then you protected yourself against people armed with a scanning tunneling microscope (which are surprisingly cheap these days ...) Of course, that begs the question, why did you bother with steps 1-3?? Or maybe things were just not as secure as you thought? Antonio From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Apr 19 10:11:18 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship In-Reply-To: <3CC02D01.12465.21F1B8B9@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c1e7b4$74d17c60$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Analog computers get (if not mechanical) a rather > low Zuse number (still way above any modern machine), > since they usualy are of small footprint, not very > heavy and not realy power consuming ... ever seen an EAI 8900 (I think that was the model)? small, not heavy, not power consuming are all somewhat inaccurate for that Even a 680 was somewhat larger than a PDP11/20 of similar era Andy From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 19 10:13:49 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action References: Message-ID: <3CC0342D.7060008@internet1.net> After hearing about this on this list, last night I heard about it on CNN Headline news :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > If interested, you may watch the Apple-1 auction action here: > > http://www.vintage.org/special/apple-1/status.php > > The auction starts at 8:00 AM PDT. > From foo at siconic.com Fri Apr 19 10:15:58 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC03324.21522.2209B1A0@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > The Pentium III with 256MB and 10GB hard disk sitting on my desk should be > > something in the TerraZuse range (or much higher). > > So this stupid Pentium is a 10^12 times more geeky then a Zuse ? > Come on. This is the geeknes factor. If the pentium gets a nanozuse > it's already way overrated. Ok, I see your point. I guess the thing to do then is make the Zuse number be between 0 and 1. A zero would mean a computer fresh off the assembly line. > > We should also factor in user I/O. Machines that used front panels and > > blinkenlights should have much lower (i.e. more classic) scores than those > > that have keyboards and 16MB bit-mapped displays with 24 million colors > > and what not. > > Machines with blikenlights are bigger and more heavy than modern > workstations, so you got this included. If we use to arbitrarily > citeria (like Display, MS ability, etc. pp. it looks less 'serious'. So you're only counting the CPU "box" in the equation? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Fri Apr 19 10:17:22 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Speaking of Zuse In-Reply-To: <3CC038C1.18266.221F9FF2@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Did I already mention that I will get a real (*1) Zuse machine next > month ? The machine is a spare unit from the Leopard test facility and > was used to collect data from a bunch of analog computers which where > usedto measure various components of the finished tanks. Boah Ey! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 10:17:46 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: <008301c1e7aa$20ac3da0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > took over 30 Minutes to write! OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that happens. Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! Doc From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 10:19:17 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC036A0.29226.22174BFD@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC05195.9150.22809C9E@localhost> > > > > It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the > > > > name is Degree Celsius (oC), and youre right, C is Coulomb. > > > Coulombs aren't derived. > > Coulombs are defined as As (Ampere Seconds) and therefore derivated > > from the seven basic units (m,kg,s,A,K,mol,cd). > But A are defined as C/s, right? C are just derived in terms of eV, > aren't they? Nop. A is defined in itself - Well, it's a basic unit (*). Coloumb is the electric charge, defined as Amper Seconds. The eV (electron volt) is a unit for energy, usualy named as Joule, or in our environment measured as wh (kwh). While one joule is the name for 1 ws, the electron volt is a quite small thing. if I'm correct it's 0,2 Attojoule (aJ). Gruss H. (*) Now, the Ampere is defind as the current (dc) needed to flow in two paralell wires, one meter apart to produce a force between the wires of 200 nN (Nanonewton) or something like that. The Ampere is, like the Meter and the other SI units a man defined unit. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 10:20:47 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Gene Buckle wrote: > Chris, if you get the chance can you find out if they're CISC or RISC > machines? If it's "coke machine sized" and surplus, it's CISC. Doc From ciniar at yahoo.com.ar Fri Apr 19 10:25:22 2002 From: ciniar at yahoo.com.ar (=?iso-8859-1?q?Augusto=20xxxx?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: deskpro 286 Message-ID: <20020419152522.73519.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Hi I am from Argentina, and i have a complete deskpro 286 in perfect conditiions. I wonder where i can find the setup software for the bios setup. I looking in compq and they dont hav'nt any old software thanks!. ===== Augusto Marconcini colaborador de www.comsto.org Conectate a Internet GRATIS con Yahoo! Conexi?n: http://conexion.yahoo.com.ar From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 10:32:02 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC03324.21522.2209B1A0@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC05492.14988.228C478F@localhost> > > > The Pentium III with 256MB and 10GB hard disk sitting on my desk should be > > > something in the TerraZuse range (or much higher). > > So this stupid Pentium is a 10^12 times more geeky then a Zuse ? > > Come on. This is the geeknes factor. If the pentium gets a nanozuse > > it's already way overrated. > Ok, I see your point. I guess the thing to do then is make the Zuse > number be between 0 and 1. A zero would mean a computer fresh off the > assembly line. I thought about including an age factor (ln2(age)) into the formula, but then you never get a stable result. Well, we might of course add a Z-eff value, which is Z * ln2(age) > > > We should also factor in user I/O. Machines that used front panels and > > > blinkenlights should have much lower (i.e. more classic) scores than those > > > that have keyboards and 16MB bit-mapped displays with 24 million colors > > > and what not. > > Machines with blikenlights are bigger and more heavy than modern > > workstations, so you got this included. If we use to arbitrarily > > citeria (like Display, MS ability, etc. pp. it looks less 'serious'. > So you're only counting the CPU "box" in the equation? Well, for stand alone machines i'd say yes. Alas you may include necersary perhipherals. Like operators desk and so on. But only necersary - a Zuse doesn't work without the operator desk, while a average unix box quite well boots without console terminal. Gruss H. BTW: who cares about PC boxes ? -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 19 10:34:28 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 19, 02 10:17:46 am Message-ID: <200204191534.LAA03382@wordstock.com> And thusly Doc spake: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. > You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang > in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP > server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. > > I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read > my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that > happens. > Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well > go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! > It's a Windows things... For some reason they just can't multitask properly while doing a floppy disk format. Maybe they are still using DOS type format routines. With OS/2, you can also do a full format of a floppy and do anything else with no slowdown. Cheers, Bryan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 10:36:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066602@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > >1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. > >2.) Low level format > >3.) WipeDisk three more times. > > > >Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. > > If you did: > > 4) Smash disk into small pieces and heat until > molten slag OK. I have a much better, more secure way to obliterate data from IDE/SCSI drives. Just 1) Remove partitions 2) Donate drives anonymously to local Linux/*BSD User Group Doc From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 10:35:07 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head In-Reply-To: <0419102105833.0.0997050815@mailserver.nktelco.net> Message-ID: I checked all of the normal places I buy printwheels, printheads, bands, etrc and no one has anything listed for the ASR33 under any name to includes Teletype Corp, Bell Labs or AT&T. Unless you can find a parted out machine you might have to rebuild the characters. My guess is that they're metal? I haven't seen an ASR33 since I was in the AF in the 76 to 78 period at Nellis. Look for places that rebuild typewriters, someone may be able to braze and recarve the characters. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of chd => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 10:59 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: ASR33 print head => => => Is there a source for new(er) ASR33 print heads? Mine has many of the => characters worn/damaged. => => -chuck => From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 10:35:09 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head In-Reply-To: <0419102105833.0.0997050815@mailserver.nktelco.net> Message-ID: Here's something I found in the ClassicCmp archives, noting that there is a person with a 3 volume set of manuals for the ASR33... ---------------------- Re: Printers From: Marvin (marvin@rain.org) Date: 06/11/97-02:19:54 PM Z Next message: Isaac Davis: "Classic Computer Collectors Index" Previous message: Marvin: "Applied Processor Labs" In reply to: A.R. Duell: "Re: Printers" Next in thread: James Willing: "Re: Printers" Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Mail actions: [ respond to this message ] [ mail a new topic ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- A.R. Duell wrote: > I collect _some_ printers - the ones I consider interesting, or fine > examples of engineering. Amongst the ones I have are a couple oF ASR33's > (great fun to strip down and rebuild, particularly if you don't have the > service manual...), a few other Teleprinters (Creed 7E, Creed 444, Friden > Flexowriter), a couple of Sanders (12/7 and 700) - these are very well > built 7 pin dot matrix printers that use multiple passes of the printhead > (up to 8 in some fonts) to get letter quality output, a Versatec V80 > (actually an ICL 6203, which has a GPIB interface), which uses an array of > electrodes to build up a charge image on specially coated paper, and then > pumps liquid toner over it, etc Nice collection! For what it is worth, I have the 3 volume set of Teletype manuals on the ASR 33, and one other (can't remember the model.) If anyone needs the manual set, I think I know where another one is. ------------------- => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of chd => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 10:59 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: ASR33 print head => => => Is there a source for new(er) ASR33 print heads? Mine has many of the => characters worn/damaged. => => -chuck => From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 19 10:36:47 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784459@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Buckle [mailto:geneb@deltasoft.com] > Chris, if you get the chance can you find out if they're CISC or RISC > machines? Sure -- here's what I know about them (it? We'll get to that) so far... The first cabinet is marked "Application Server/400 9406" If I'm not mistaken, that makes it a RISC model. It contains two EMC SCSI arrays, a tape library of some sort, made by Phillips, a , a QIC-1000, or similar tape drive, and at least one card cage which is mostly full. There is a second rack, but I'm not convinced that it's a separate system. It only says "Application Server 400" on the tag -- no model number, no "system cabinet" label in the back like the other one has. This second rack has (I think) some cards in the cage, and the unit in the middle of the rack with the power switch on it, but nothing else. There are a few other things floating around with these. Twinax cable, power cords, an (I wrote IBM 7206-002, but I can't find that model, and I see that 7206 is a 4mm drive, which this is not... so I think...) 7208-002 external tape drive. So does anyone know how to tell whether these are one system or two? They're actually a bit smaller than I had been told. Each rack is about the size of a relatively small refrigerator. I'm right around 6' tall, and these are shorter than I am. On another note, my fiancee has expressed some interest in it. I'll try to find out over the weekend whether she wants it or not. Personally I don't like AS/400s enough to have one this large ;) The last thing is that the guy who has it will probably want some money for it. As of now, I have no idea how much, nor does he, AFAIK. Anyway, John, if you're still interested, let me know, and I'll see about putting you in touch with the current owner -- assuming that the fiancee doesn't decide she really needs a very large AS/400. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 19 10:51:16 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads Message-ID: <000701c1e7ba$0a467ed0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> The subject says the first part... I'm seeking a source for the specifications for 7-track tape heads. I'm thinking what I really need is just the mechanical/ physical specifications... that leads me to the second part.. Has anyone here have any experience with disassembling a tape head and re-assembling it? I have in mind delaminating a 9-track head stack and rebuilding it as a 7-track. I can already see that a microscope with a precision mechanical stage will be a must-have for this work. The end-result of this project will probably involve reading 7-track tapes in analog mode and digitizing the analog data stream in order to use modern computing power to reconstruct the data. Yes, this is bascially what Tim Shoppa does now, but I'm not going into business, this would be a labor of love and once operational, would be used only to assist other hobbyists/preservationists in their conservation efforts. And of course, this is the last-ditch effort, as I continue to scan my purview for a working head or a working 7-track drive. Comments appreciated too, but especially pointers to the requested info if online, and maybe an offer of photocopies of not... Tia, -dq From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 11:00:09 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Doc! g. On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Chris, if you get the chance can you find out if they're CISC or RISC > > machines? > > If it's "coke machine sized" and surplus, it's CISC. > > Doc > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 19 11:00:56 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action References: <3CC0342D.7060008@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CC03F38.9E8E86A9@jetnet.ab.ca> Chad Fernandez wrote: > > After hearing about this on this list, last night I heard about it on > CNN Headline news :-) For all you apple 1 owners, have you seen this page? http://www.applefritter.com/apple1/index.html -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 19 11:04:15 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: <3CC03324.21522.2209B1A0@localhost> <3CC05492.14988.228C478F@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC03FFF.724F80AF@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans Franke wrote: > Well, for stand alone machines i'd say yes. Alas you may > include necersary perhipherals. Like operators desk and > so on. But only necersary - a Zuse doesn't work without > the operator desk, while a average unix box quite well > boots without console terminal. > BTW: who cares about PC boxes ? My PC jumps up and bites you in the LEG. Down BOY Down DOWN! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jss at subatomix.com Fri Apr 19 11:11:50 2002 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification Message-ID: <164458323995.20020419111150@subatomix.com> I would like to identify the book that was my first book on computers, with which I learned BASIC on a diskless TRS-80 Model II in the fifth grade. The book was small, about the same size as a TV Guide but maybe twice as thick. It had a blue cover, I think, with maybe a drawing of a TRS-80 on the front. Does this ring any bells? -- Jeffrey Sharp jss@subatomix.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 11:08:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC05492.14988.228C478F@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > I thought about including an age factor (ln2(age)) into > the formula, but then you never get a stable result. I'd argue against an age factor. Especially in backplane architectures, a single computer might be 5 _and_ 15 years old.... I do agree that cooler should be a higher value. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 11:15:31 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads In-Reply-To: <000701c1e7ba$0a467ed0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Has anyone here have any experience with disassembling a > tape head and re-assembling it? I have in mind delaminating > a 9-track head stack and rebuilding it as a 7-track. Having never seen a 9-track or a 7-track head, I'd still bet you're farther ahead starting from scratch. With any laminated product, de- and re-lamination will require repolishing of the working surfaces. Better off to do it with new materials, so you have extra material to cut, and you don't have to clean or machine the binding agent from the layers before you can reglue. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 19 11:13:26 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178445D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Ok guys, it seems I messed up in the last message. I've just found something that says that the "9406" on this machine -- "machine type" as they call it -- really doesn't tell you a thing about the CPU being RISC or CISC. So I give up, how _do_ you tell? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 11:22:52 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Making data unreadable (was: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've had the same discussion with people down here who were drilling holes > in drives. Given enough time and effort, a large amount of data can still > be extracted from those tortured drives. Wasn't there some discussion a while back about sand-blasting the oxide off? Wouldn't it be almost as effective to store it in a high-Zuse format and then wait until all of the old farts who understand the system die off? From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 19 11:26:31 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Secret Mac References: Message-ID: <3CC04537.2030501@dragonsweb.org> Tothwolf wrote: > > > I've really been wondering what is happening to systems being sent to TDC > (Texas Department of Corrections) down here in Texas. After SB1105 76(R) > was passed in 1999, all state agencies or state funded groups have been > required to send their "data processing equipment" (computers) to TDC. > They are required to remove any data from the PC, so most just remove the > hard drive (and don't reinstall the mounting bracket). They don't usually > send TDC the monitors, keyboard, mice, or cables that go along with those > systems. Strangely enough, they do send terminals to TDC. I really can't > imagine how TDC plans to refurbish/resell stripped computers that lack > their monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Here in Houston at least, I've seen > everything from an Apple II or a Mac 128k to an IBM/360 packed up for > shipment to TDC. Some scrap metal dealer or trash hauler must have a > really sweet deal going with TDC... > > -Toth > > Somebody remind me again how "capitalism" is "efficient". Our state does equally intelligent things to benefit the kin and business associates of its politicians and bureaucrats, as well as campaign contributors and the odd blackmailer. You are obviously suffering under the delusion that governments exist to establish order, fairness, and justice. My state is equally far-sighted as Texas, maybe more so. In its case, all DPE goes to another state agency, DOAS, which extends its tentacles into just about every other government function except the courts. I believe I've mentioned this here before. I'm not going to start an off-topic Brubaker thread here, though, because on any given day I'm likely to encounter the ladies from the women's prison making money for some contractor cleaning the city streets and trimming sidewalks. They seem to enjoy being outside, regardless. I ain't takin' the heat for screwing that up for them :-) jbdigriz From mythtech at mac.com Fri Apr 19 11:26:44 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: > OK. I have a much better, more secure way to obliterate data from >IDE/SCSI drives. > Just > >1) Remove partitions >2) Donate drives anonymously to local Linux/*BSD User Group Install Windows, use Outlook, open Email. -chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 11:34:06 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Re: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) (John Allain) References: <3CBF8E09.EC0B3278@jetnet.ab.ca> <15551.39810.291736.282313@phaduka.neurotica.com> <008301c1e7aa$20ac3da0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15552.18174.44441.340682@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, John Allain wrote: > > Why do people use PeeCees, again? Pathetic, indeed. > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > Pathetique! So everyone's complaining about PeeCees, but some people are still using them. THIS is what I don't understand. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 19 11:26:53 2002 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head References: Message-ID: <3CC0454D.129048C4@xs4all.nl> Try www.westnc.com, I bought there a year or so ago 3 hammer heads and a printer head. They also sell the papertape rolls if you are looking for them as well. Ed > => Is there a source for new(er) ASR33 print heads? Mine has many of the > => characters worn/damaged. > => > => -chuck > => -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 19 11:37:59 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look Message-ID: <19c.fa4d31.29f1a1e7@aol.com> In a message dated 4/19/2002 10:48:08 AM Central Daylight Time, bpope@wordstock.com writes: > And thusly Doc spake: > > > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > > > > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > > > OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. > > You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang > > in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP > > server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. > > > > I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read > > my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that > > happens. > > Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well > > go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. > > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! > > > > It's a Windows things... For some reason they just can't multitask > properly while doing a floppy disk format. Maybe they are still using DOS > type format routines. > > With OS/2, you can also do a full format of a floppy and do anything else > with > no slowdown. > That was a big bragging point for us OS/2 users. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020419/0e413b52/attachment.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 19 11:39:24 2002 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head In-Reply-To: <0419102105833.0.0997050815@mailserver.nktelco.net> Message-ID: > Is there a source for new(er) ASR33 print heads? Based on a recent greenkeys message, I would say that you want to contact: CPUMECH@aol.com Bill Sudbrink From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 11:46:38 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: deskpro 286 In-Reply-To: <20020419152522.73519.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They do but they hide it well. It will be listed under "out of production" under the "paq" files. You may have to reference a model number rather than name - I don't have the link anymore and it's been a while since I've been on their site(s). => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Augusto xxxx => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 10:25 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: deskpro 286 => => => Hi I am from Argentina, and i have a complete deskpro => 286 in perfect conditiions. => I wonder where i can find the setup software for the => bios setup. => I looking in compq and they dont hav'nt any old => software => => thanks!. => => ===== => Augusto Marconcini => colaborador de www.comsto.org => => Conectate a Internet GRATIS con Yahoo! Conexi?n: => http://conexion.yahoo.com.ar => From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 19 11:54:35 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Secret Mac References: Message-ID: <3CC04BCB.8030800@dragonsweb.org> Doc wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > >>>1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. >>>2.) Low level format >>>3.) WipeDisk three more times. >>> >>>Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. >> >>If you did: >> >>4) Smash disk into small pieces and heat until >> molten slag > > > OK. I have a much better, more secure way to obliterate data from > IDE/SCSI drives. > Just > > 1) Remove partitions > 2) Donate drives anonymously to local Linux/*BSD User Group > > Doc > > Also takes care of any malicious virusware that was on them :-) I have reinstalled OS'es on used machines for people who got them from 3rd parties. I no longer even bother to see what's on them. You don't even want to know what some people have on their disks. Trust me. jbdigriz From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:03:28 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <164458323995.20020419111150@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > I would like to identify the book that was my first book on computers, with > which I learned BASIC on a diskless TRS-80 Model II in the fifth grade. The Could you give us the YEAR, instead of your age? Sure that it was a model II? (That had vertical 8 inch drives) > book was small, about the same size as a TV Guide but maybe twice as thick. > It had a blue cover, I think, with maybe a drawing of a TRS-80 on the front. > Does this ring any bells? Most of the BASIC books that Tandy used were by David Lien. From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 12:06:57 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178445D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: Is this the black or beige series of AS/400? There should be the telltale IBM data tage that has something in the order of 9406-XXX (the XXX is the model variant, explaing the options from the factory, and consequently the processor type and number). There are different sizes/models within the 9406 line, and that dash number will tell a lot about it. There are models like 170, 250, 730, 740, etc. I don't know a hell of a lot about the older beige units but I think they are for OS/390 instead of OS/400 anyway. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:13 AM => To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' => Subject: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => Ok guys, it seems I messed up in the last message. I've just => found something that says that the "9406" on this machine -- => "machine type" as they call it -- really doesn't tell you a => thing about the CPU being RISC or CISC. => => So I give up, how _do_ you tell? :) => => Chris => => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer => Amdocs - Champaign, IL => => /usr/bin/perl -e ' => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); => ' From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 19 12:11:03 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head Message-ID: <200204191711.KAA27274@clulw009.amd.com> For those that want on line manuals, check: http://www.pdp8.net/index.shtml Near the end of the page, under other you'll find ASR 33 Teletype. Besides these he has a great site for PDP-8's I was thinking, it might be a good idea to make a mold of the print head I have. One could then make one in the future to replace it. I'm not sure, not having it right here, but I think the head is some kind of metal over plasic. It could be nickel or something that doesn't rust. It could also be low temperature type setters metal of some type. Dwight >From: "Russ Blakeman" > >Here's something I found in the ClassicCmp archives, noting that there is a >person with a 3 volume set of manuals for the ASR33... >---------------------- >Re: Printers >From: Marvin (marvin@rain.org) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:12:43 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CC01F65.8D15371F@eoni.com> Message-ID: > Here's how a defense contractor cleaned a tempest system's hard drive of > secret SAR (not confidential) data after each use: > 1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. > 2.) Low level format > 3.) WipeDisk three more times. > Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. Wanna bet? With sufficient (excessive) effort and expense (>G*value of data), some can still be recovered. The NSA does a lot of that kind of stuff. Consider: If the radial alignment NOW is not exactly the same as it was THEN, then the position of those rewrites is not centered over the old data. With extensive study of the area alongside the tracks, some traces can be found of the data that got missed by the rewrites. The goal can simply be to make recovery effort to be excessive for the value of the recovered data. Why not just install Windoze over it? From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 19 12:23:44 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) Message-ID: <000701c1e7c6$f5da9b90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Hans Franke wrote: > > > Well, for stand alone machines i'd say yes. Alas you may > > include necersary perhipherals. Like operators desk and > > so on. But only necersary - a Zuse doesn't work without > > the operator desk, while a average unix box quite well > > boots without console terminal. > > > BTW: who cares about PC boxes ? > > My PC jumps up and bites you in the LEG. Down BOY Down DOWN! Clearly, your PC hasn't been smacked with an Etherkiller lately... Curb that dog, son! -dq From foo at siconic.com Fri Apr 19 12:26:42 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: <3CC0342D.7060008@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > After hearing about this on this list, last night I heard about it on > CNN Headline news :-) You are kidding me! I HATE CNN! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 19 12:24:42 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178445E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Buckle [mailto:geneb@deltasoft.com] > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > If it's "coke machine sized" and surplus, it's CISC. > Thanks Doc! I should also mention that I believe them to be relatively new. While there is no proof of this, they're supposed to come from a company that went out of business perhaps two years ago, and wasn't _in_ business for that long, AFAIK. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 19 12:35:35 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: <19c.fa4d31.29f1a1e7@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Apr 19, 02 12:37:59 pm Message-ID: <200204191735.NAA28453@wordstock.com> And thusly SUPRDAVE@aol.com spake: > > > > > It's a Windows things... For some reason they just can't multitask > > properly while doing a floppy disk format. Maybe they are still using DOS > > type format routines. > > > > With OS/2, you can also do a full format of a floppy and do anything else > > with > > no slowdown. > > > > That was a big bragging point for us OS/2 users. > When OS/2 (V3?) came out, a friend and I demoed it at a user group meeting. We put it beside whatever was the latest from M$. Of course OS/2 was *better* at everything... That (formatting a floppy disk) was a big thing. The other big thing was playing multiple DOS games in console windows with almost *no* slowdown. Cheers, Bryan From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 12:36:08 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. > You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang > in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP > server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. > > I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read > my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that > happens. > Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well > go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! That was one of the things IBM bragged about in the OS/2 2.0 ads. That you could continue with your word processor while you formatted a floppy. Windows could not even come close at the time. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 12:37:17 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC05195.9150.22809C9E@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > But A are defined as C/s, right? C are just derived in terms of eV, > > aren't they? > > Nop. A is defined in itself - Well, it's a basic unit (*). > Coloumb is the electric charge, defined as Amper Seconds. > The eV (electron volt) is a unit for energy, usualy named > as Joule, or in our environment measured as wh (kwh). > While one joule is the name for 1 ws, the electron volt > is a quite small thing. if I'm correct it's 0,2 Attojoule > (aJ). Now I know that the Coulomb was derived before the Ampere. I'll look it up and get back to you. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 12:40:19 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:49 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > Chris, if you get the chance can you find out if they're CISC or RISC > > machines? > > If it's "coke machine sized" and surplus, it's CISC. Not necessarily. I find the amazing deals by doing the footwork and looking at anything that seems too good to be true. Peace... Sridhar From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 19 12:40:19 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 19, 02 10:26:42 am Message-ID: <200204191740.NAA28127@wordstock.com> And thusly Sellam Ismail spake: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > After hearing about this on this list, last night I heard about it on > > CNN Headline news :-) > > You are kidding me! I HATE CNN! > Umm... Where else are you supposed to get news (on TV) these days? ;) Fox?! Cheers, Bryan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 12:46:02 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >You do I have a point. I have a bunch of really nice PC's here, and they >all hold their own versus various workstations. But, on the whole, the >world of the PC definitely caters closer to the LCD than a lot of other >kinds of hardware. OK, the Lowest Common Denominator arguement I can buy. I think that in this day and age there are two different classes of PC's, Consumer Grade, and Commercial Grade (and both of these are probably split into a high and low group). Looking around here, most of the stuff I've got is pretty much commercial grade stuff (especially stuff like the Quad-Pentium Pro, and Dual Xeon). A couple exceptions are would be a wierd little i810 board I have sitting in a wooden rack behind my Sparc 20 (once I got the kinks with Linux worked out it was rock solid for months, but it's been having network problems that I think is the switch, and not it). The other exception is a hopelessly overloaded Dual Processor 400Mhz Celeron. The only thing I use it for anymore is to dial into work, or to make a disk image of one of the SCSI disks for my PDP-11. The only time it seems to manage to stay up for more than 3 days is when I forget it's on. I could blame that on crappy PC hardware, but in this case I'm more inclined to blame myself (remember I said it's overloaded). The OS you have on the hardware can really be the deciding factor in how stable it is. The 1Ghz Pentium III system I mentioned in my last message that I have running Linux, and I use to run PDP-10 and PDP-11 emulators is an HP Vectra (normally I'd never get a prebuilt system, but I got it for free, and I've got to admit it's rather well built). One of the women I used to work with has one also, and it's running Windows 98. Hers crashes all the time, mine running Linux is rock solid. The other thing to consider is you get what you pay for, if you buy something like a "Packard Bell" (aren't they finally dead), you're going to have a piece of crap. The same will undoubtably pretty much hold true with any of the dirt cheap systems you find at your local computer store. The trick is to run a good OS, and carefully craft a system to run it using good parts. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 12:46:05 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <15552.1889.754634.148255@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) (Zane H. Healy) <200204190446.g3J4kdt11720@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >On April 19, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> There is no shortage of real PDP-11's around here, the biggest problem I > > Huh? Where are you? I think it's time for a road trip. Just about as far as you can get from Florida and still be in the US without having to cross water or travel through a foriegn country :^) I think you misunderstood the statement, the reason there is no shortage around here, is becuase I've got more than enough (OK, I would gladly take stuff that's better than a /73). I didn't mean that I regularly find them. It's been 2-3 years since I last got one around here. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 19 12:47:18 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: The Dog (was: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac))) In-Reply-To: <000701c1e7c6$f5da9b90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CC07446.5048.23081FE7@localhost> > > > Well, for stand alone machines i'd say yes. Alas you may > > > include necersary perhipherals. Like operators desk and > > > so on. But only necersary - a Zuse doesn't work without > > > the operator desk, while a average unix box quite well > > > boots without console terminal. > > > BTW: who cares about PC boxes ? > > My PC jumps up and bites you in the LEG. Down BOY Down DOWN! > Clearly, your PC hasn't been smacked with an Etherkiller lately... > Curb that dog, son! I guess he is not even housebroken and spills out his blue screens everywhere... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 19 12:47:33 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area References: Message-ID: <3CC05835.3050902@internet1.net> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Is this the black or beige series of AS/400? There should be the telltale > IBM data tage that has something in the order of 9406-XXX (the XXX is the > model variant, explaing the options from the factory, and consequently the > processor type and number). There are different sizes/models within the 9406 > line, and that dash number will tell a lot about it. There are models like > 170, 250, 730, 740, etc. I don't know a hell of a lot about the older beige > units but I think they are for OS/390 instead of OS/400 anyway. OS/390 is for the S/390 mainframes isn't it? The AS/400 is the IBM "midrange" line of computers. S/36 would have been IBM's pre-AS/400 midranges, I believe. Any chance your getting the numbers mixed up? I've never heard OS/390 used with an AS/400. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 12:54:35 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Here's how a defense contractor cleaned a tempest system's hard drive of > > secret SAR (not confidential) data after each use: > > 1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. > > 2.) Low level format > > 3.) WipeDisk three more times. > > Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. > > Wanna bet? > > With sufficient (excessive) effort and expense (>G*value of data), some > can still be recovered. The NSA does a lot of that kind of stuff. Shred the disks. Take the even numbered and odd numbered shreds and burn them in separate incinerators, and bury the ash in two different landfills. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 12:57:52 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Is this the black or beige series of AS/400? There should be the telltale > IBM data tage that has something in the order of 9406-XXX (the XXX is the > model variant, explaing the options from the factory, and consequently the > processor type and number). There are different sizes/models within the 9406 > line, and that dash number will tell a lot about it. There are models like > 170, 250, 730, 740, etc. I don't know a hell of a lot about the older beige > units but I think they are for OS/390 instead of OS/400 anyway. S/390's run OS/390. AS/400's run OS/400. OS/390 is mainframe MVS. AS/400 hardware isn't capable enough to run that kind of stuff. OS/390 is *not* an older version of OS/400. They have nothing to do with each other. Peace... Sridhar > => -----Original Message----- > => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith > => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:13 AM > => To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > => Subject: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area > => > => > => Ok guys, it seems I messed up in the last message. I've just > => found something that says that the "9406" on this machine -- > => "machine type" as they call it -- really doesn't tell you a > => thing about the CPU being RISC or CISC. > => > => So I give up, how _do_ you tell? :) > => > => Chris > => > => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > => Amdocs - Champaign, IL > => > => /usr/bin/perl -e ' > => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > => ' > > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 13:03:37 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: <200204191735.NAA28453@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > It's a Windows things... For some reason they just can't multitask > > > properly while doing a floppy disk format. Maybe they are still using DOS > > > type format routines. > > > > > > With OS/2, you can also do a full format of a floppy and do anything else > > > with > > > no slowdown. > > > > > > > That was a big bragging point for us OS/2 users. > > > > When OS/2 (V3?) came out, a friend and I demoed it at a user group meeting. > We put it beside whatever was the latest from M$. Of course OS/2 was *better* > at everything... > > That (formatting a floppy disk) was a big thing. The other big thing was > playing multiple DOS games in console windows with almost *no* slowdown. I used OS/2 in my main desktop machine right from version 1.3. I remember when Warp came out. It was so cool to be able to play a game while using Prodigy on my Hayes Smartmodem 2400 at the same time. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 19 13:07:32 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <3CC05835.3050902@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Is this the black or beige series of AS/400? There should be the telltale > > IBM data tage that has something in the order of 9406-XXX (the XXX is the > > model variant, explaing the options from the factory, and consequently the > > processor type and number). There are different sizes/models within the 9406 > > line, and that dash number will tell a lot about it. There are models like > > 170, 250, 730, 740, etc. I don't know a hell of a lot about the older beige > > units but I think they are for OS/390 instead of OS/400 anyway. > > OS/390 is for the S/390 mainframes isn't it? The AS/400 is the IBM > "midrange" line of computers. S/36 would have been IBM's pre-AS/400 > midranges, I believe. Any chance your getting the numbers mixed up? "Midrange" is IBM-speak for "minicomputer". > I've never heard OS/390 used with an AS/400. That's because it never was. Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 19 13:08:53 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784462@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhb57@vol.com] > Is this the black or beige series of AS/400? There should be > 170, 250, 730, 740, etc. I don't know a hell of a lot about > the older beige > units but I think they are for OS/390 instead of OS/400 anyway. Beige. Are you saying that you can run OS/390 on an AS/400? That sounds odd to me. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 19 13:13:36 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look References: Message-ID: <01c001c1e7cd$eccdb260$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > That was one of the things IBM bragged about in the OS/2 2.0 ads. > That you could continue with your word processor while you formatted > a floppy. Windows could not even come close at the time. Why bother saying 'at the time'? My win is 2 years old and still no better. John A. Yeah and the next version will have it fixed. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 19 13:08:44 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads In-Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" "Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads" (Apr 19, 11:51) References: <000701c1e7ba$0a467ed0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10204191908.ZM25385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 19, 11:51, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > The end-result of this project will probably involve > reading 7-track tapes in analog mode and digitizing > the analog data stream in order to use modern computing > power to reconstruct the data. Well, if you're going to go into digital signal processing, why not just use a 9-track head, and analyse the data from adjacent tracks to recombine into 7 tracks? ;-) I'll bet it's doable. My second-year second-term (10 weeks) assigned project was to build a barcode reader, using a common slotted optosensor with an active area whose diameter was about twice the width of the bars, and a Z80 with 2K EPROM and 8K RAM. It's amazing what you can do with a little circuitry and a little calculation. 9 tracks to 7 should be easier, since I expect the top, bottom, and middle tracks will line up nicely. The second track from the 9-track head would have a mixture of (mostly) 1st and (a little) 2nd tracks of the 7-track signal; the next channel would have a roughly equal mixture of data from tracks 2 and 3; the next channel would be almost all 3; and so on. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 19 12:44:05 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: 20mA serial cable connector" (Apr 19, 13:05) References: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> <3CC007F7.33A69C5@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <10204191844.ZM25370@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 19, 13:05, John Honniball wrote: > Tom Uban wrote: > > I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male connector > > shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. > ... > > I am assuming that if I can find the > > shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. > > I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins > out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on > disk and tape drives. They're not Molex, they're AMP, and since they're the pins for that series of connector they'll work fine. Both the connectors used for DEC PSUs and 20mA loop, and the connectors used for disk drive power, are (or "were" in the case of the wide flat ones :-)) are from the AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lok series. So are the 3-pin DEC power bus cables. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Fri Apr 19 13:17:49 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: The Unit References: <3CBF2FFA.25152.1E1555EE@localhost> <3CC03324.21522.2209B1A0@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC05F4D.2C31E6F@Vishay.com> > Machines with blikenlights are bigger and more heavy than modern > workstations, so you got this included. If we use to arbitrarily > citeria (like Display, MS ability, etc. pp. it looks less 'serious'. I consider less common machines way cooler than boxes you can find at the next corner, and I consider this a "serious" criterium. So, why don't we take into account the number of units that were built when rating the machine? This number should go into the denominator to decrease the rating for use-once-and-throw-away computers, of course. A Z1 rating would not be influenced too badly (only one original plus one reconstruction, AFAIK, and I even doubt the reconstruction needs to be counted), but those PeeCees will need their rating to be recomputed daily... -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 19 13:28:37 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: <200204191740.NAA28127@wordstock.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020419142837.00837290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:40 PM 4/19/02 -0400, Bryan wrote: >And thusly Sellam Ismail spake: >> >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: >> >> > After hearing about this on this list, last night I heard about it on >> > CNN Headline news :-) >> >> You are kidding me! I HATE CNN! >> > >Umm... Where else are you supposed to get news (on TV) these days? ;) Fox?! That's the problem, News and TV don't belong in the same sentence! Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 13:22:03 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > With sufficient (excessive) effort and expense (>G*value of data), some > > can still be recovered. The NSA does a lot of that kind of stuff. On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > Shred the disks. Take the even numbered and odd numbered shreds and burn > them in separate incinerators, and bury the ash in two different > landfills. I have heard from a completely unreliable source that that is exactly what is done at certain places (embassies) on Massachusetts Ave in DC, ever since the garbage pickup started getting special processing. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 19 12:54:02 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: boatanchor mailing lists and resources? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:13:07 CDT." Message-ID: <200204191754.SAA17674@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tothwolf said: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Stan Barr wrote: > > I presume you're familiar with rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors ;-) > > That I am. I haven't been reading it lately since the signal to noise > ratio (all the epay ads) got to be too much trouble to filter. > Know what you mean ;-) > > > I wasn't able to find out all that much about the 'CS', other than it > > > seems to have been made between 1945 and 1946. > > > > Raymond S. Moore's book agrees with the dates and says it's the same > > as the NC-2-40C but with frequencies 0.2 to 0.4 and 1 to 30 MHz > > instead of 0.49 to 30 MHz. > > Thanks for the verification. That book sounds like one I should add to my > library, although it looks to be out of print. Do you have any ideas as to > why National chose to produce two very similar models with different > frequency ranges? Perhaps the CS was just an "improved", next-generation > model? I think it may have been a special contract of some sort. I imagine there's not much call in the USA for receivers covering 200 - 400KHz - mostly beacons down there. It has the same frequency coverage as the NC-100ASD which was built to a Signal Corps contract. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From classiccmp at mail.vintage-computer.com Fri Apr 19 13:20:51 2002 From: classiccmp at mail.vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Solid State Music MB-3 EPROM card question Message-ID: I recently received an Altair 8800 with an Altair disk drive (Pertec FD514 innards). In said machine is a Solid State Music 2/4k EPROM board with 2 proms: DBL and MBL. My understanding is that the DBL prom is the boot loader for paper tape and cassette and the MBL is the boot loader for the disk. Assuming the PROMS (1702s) still hold data, I need to figure out the address of the code. The board has two sets of four dip switches. One is labeled T1 to T4 and the other A12 to A15. A jumper on the board that allows settings between 2k and 4k is set to 4k (1702s vs 1701s?) Does anyone have a manual or a really good memory of how these relate to the address of the on-board PROMS? I?m also interested in finding out how the sockets are addressed. The two proms are in the lower right sockets (the board has 2 rows of 9) and I?d have thought from the markings that the upper left sockets were the first two to be addressed. I?m not yet that familiar with S-100/Altair type systems, but I assume if I know this address I can execute the code to boot the machine (assuming the drive still works and the disks aren?t bad. . . ) Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. Erik From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 13:28:16 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <3CC05835.3050902@internet1.net> Message-ID: HOT day here, musta been rambling, although I'm not sure they even classify the 390 as a mainframe - most literature and such refers to it as a server. On anohter subject somewhat related, I hear they're pretty decent Linux boxes - or at least the pricing for the Linux is likely better than for OS/390. I may have even been think along the lines of the S/38. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:48 PM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => Russ Blakeman wrote: => > Is this the black or beige series of AS/400? There should be => the telltale => > IBM data tage that has something in the order of 9406-XXX (the => XXX is the => > model variant, explaing the options from the factory, and => consequently the => > processor type and number). There are different sizes/models => within the 9406 => > line, and that dash number will tell a lot about it. There are => models like => > 170, 250, 730, 740, etc. I don't know a hell of a lot about => the older beige => > units but I think they are for OS/390 instead of OS/400 anyway. => => => OS/390 is for the S/390 mainframes isn't it? The AS/400 is the IBM => "midrange" line of computers. S/36 would have been IBM's pre-AS/400 => midranges, I believe. Any chance your getting the numbers mixed up? => I've never heard OS/390 used with an AS/400. => => Chad Fernandez => Michigan, USA => From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 13:32:38 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >That was one of the things IBM bragged about in the OS/2 2.0 ads. That >you could continue with your word processor while you formatted a floppy. >Windows could not even come close at the time. > >Peace... Sridhar I'd not realized they had any adds about this. I ran OS/2 from V1.3 to V3.0, and one thing I always loved was how I could be formatting both 3.5" and 5.25" floppies while I was editing a document and dialed into a BBS. Taking Doc's complaint from a Macintosh angle, why is it that a 68k based Mac can work with floppies nice and fast, while a PPC based Mac is dog slow? When I moved from my PowerMac 8500/180 to my G4/450 I needed to image all my floppy based software so I'd be able to install it on the G4 (I'm not one of those people that objects to Apple doing away with the floppies, it makes sense). However, I ended up imaging them on my Powerbook 540c and copying them via Appletalk to the 8500 to put them on CD. For floppy based stuff basically any 68k Mac will run circles around any PPC based Mac! I'm not talking slightly faster, I'm talking reading several in the time it takes to read one on a PPC! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Fri Apr 19 13:44:32 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC0285B.18302.21DF90B7@localhost> References: <3CBEFA2C.2639.1D4328C1@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020419144432.00e79e74@pop1.epm.net.co> At 02:23 PM 4/19/02 +0200, you wrote: >> Since when has 'Celsius' been an SI unit? And since when has the >> abreviation for it been 'C'? C _is_ used for an SI unit -- the Coulomh. >It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the >name is Degree Celsius (?C), and youre right, C is Coulomb. >Gruss wait - isn't the Kelvin the SI unit? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 19 13:44:36 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Secret Mac Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784463@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Shred the disks. Take the even numbered and odd numbered > shreds and burn > them in separate incinerators, and bury the ash in two different > landfills. No, I've got it. Slag the disks, and then make the slag into 20 pieces of cursed jewelry. Three Platters for the Elven-kings under the sky Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Platter to rule them all, One Platter to find them, One Platter to bring them all and in the darkness bind them, In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 19 13:46:36 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: <000701c1e7c6$f5da9b90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CC0660C.140DC9CE@jetnet.ab.ca> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > Well, for stand alone machines i'd say yes. Alas you may > > > include necersary perhipherals. Like operators desk and > > > so on. But only necersary - a Zuse doesn't work without > > > the operator desk, while a average unix box quite well > > > boots without console terminal. > > > > > BTW: who cares about PC boxes ? > > > > My PC jumps up and bites you in the LEG. Down BOY Down DOWN! > > Clearly, your PC hasn't been smacked with an Etherkiller lately... > > Curb that dog, son! > > -dq Generally the 28k baud serial cable keeps him under control. There is still a lot of things that only run under windows, games for example ( or Free FPGA software) that linux just does not have yet. Anyway lets not forget that in 10 years err 1 year your new pc will be outdated any how and heading to the dumpster soon. -- Classic Computers -- New computers with the warranty expired. From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 13:47:27 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178445E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: If it's black without red vents it's the older series, they came out with the red vents in the last 6 or so years. I think they look so cool that I painted one of my old IBM 9595 servers AS/400 black and made sections red (the sloped part below the drives on the bvezel) to get that same look. I thought it looked cool, as did the guy that I shipped it to in Vermont. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith => Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:25 PM => To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' => Subject: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => => > -----Original Message----- => > From: Gene Buckle [mailto:geneb@deltasoft.com] => => > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: => => > > If it's "coke machine sized" and surplus, it's CISC. => => > Thanks Doc! => => I should also mention that I believe them to be relatively new. => While there is no proof of this, they're supposed to come from => a company that went out of business perhaps two years ago, and => wasn't _in_ business for that long, AFAIK. => => Chris => => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer => Amdocs - Champaign, IL => => /usr/bin/perl -e ' => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); => ' => From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Apr 19 13:52:41 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: <10204191844.ZM25370@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> <3CC007F7.33A69C5@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020419135241.00836b20@ubanproductions.com> At 05:44 PM 4/19/02 GMT, you wrote: >On Apr 19, 13:05, John Honniball wrote: >> Tom Uban wrote: >> > I'm looking for a supply of the uncommon DEC 20mA current loop male >connector >> > shells used to plug into DEC VT100s, Wyse 85s, and the like. >> ... >> > I am assuming that if I can find the >> > shells, I can find a pin from either AMP or Molex which will work. >> >> I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins >> out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on >> disk and tape drives. > >Peter Turnbull wrote: >They're not Molex, they're AMP, and since they're the pins for that series >of connector they'll work fine. Both the connectors used for DEC PSUs and >20mA loop, and the connectors used for disk drive power, are (or "were" in >the case of the wide flat ones :-)) are from the AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lok >series. So are the 3-pin DEC power bus cables. Yes, the connectors are AMP. Here is what I got back from Tyco/AMP when I made an inquiry about them: *************************************************************************** Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response. We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you within 48 hours. Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you. Subject --------------------------------------------------------------- mate-n-lock 1-480459-0 male connector shells and pins Discussion Thread --------------------------------------------------------------- Response (Vickie Hughes) - 04/19/2002 11:19 AM Hello, The item you are questioning was obsoleted in 1997 with no replacements. I do not find anything similar to this item nor do we show any stock left in inventory. I do not see where any distributor has any inventory either. We would not be able to offer a solution unless you can change you design to one of the other Commercial MNL products. http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?C=12881&F=0&M=CINF&N=0& LG=1&I=13&RQS=C~12881^M~FEAT^G~G Have a good day. Customer (Tom Uban) - 04/19/2002 10:12 AM I am looking for a small number of mate-n-lock (1-480459-0) male plug shells (about 24) and associated male pins. Is there any chance that there are still some available? Your catalog listing shows them as obsolete. http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?C=1&PN=480459&M=CONTAIN S&LG=1&I=42&button.x=0&button.y=0 Thanks. Tom Uban From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 14:31:40 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: References: <200204191735.NAA28453@wordstock.com> Message-ID: >I used OS/2 in my main desktop machine right from version 1.3. I remember >when Warp came out. It was so cool to be able to play a game while using >Prodigy on my Hayes Smartmodem 2400 at the same time. > >Peace... Sridhar I see I wasn't the only one doing that :^) I also liked being able to cut from one window and paste into the Prodigy window! That made posting the Linux BBS list, which I maintained at the time, to Prodigy possible. It wasn't easy, or fun, but it was possible :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 19 13:40:43 2002 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: TEMPEST equipment (was: Re: Secret Mac) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:19:19 EDT." <20020419131919.28371@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: <200204191840.TAA19940@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tom Owad said: > >I think you will find that it was the work of a third party. The > >Tempest discipline was/is a very specialized one that requires special > >facilities, test equipment, AND experience, and was inherently a low > >volume operation - not the kind of thing that a computer manufacturer is > >likely to find profitable. Hence, third party. > > So where did this test equipment get to? Come on, guys, I want to see > someone read CRT emanations! I've seen it on TV...there was a program on the subject a few years ago here in th UK. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 19 15:03:23 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: No such thing as scrap (Was: Re: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac))") Message-ID: <006a01c1e7dd$42c80d00$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > > > Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > > > Well, for stand alone machines i'd say yes. Alas you may > > > > include necersary perhipherals. Like operators desk and > > > > so on. But only necersary - a Zuse doesn't work without > > > > the operator desk, while a average unix box quite well > > > > boots without console terminal. > > > > > > > BTW: who cares about PC boxes ? > > > > > > My PC jumps up and bites you in the LEG. Down BOY Down DOWN! > > > > Clearly, your PC hasn't been smacked with an Etherkiller lately... > > > > Curb that dog, son! > > Generally the 28k baud serial cable keeps him under control. > There is still a lot of things that only run under windows, games for > example ( or Free FPGA software) that linux just does not have yet. > Anyway lets not forget that in 10 years err 1 year your new pc will be > outdated any how and heading to the dumpster soon. The last computer equipment I sent to the junkyard were pieces and parts of an IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line Printer that I could kick myself over. Before that, I stripped the switches and LEDS from a control panel from a System/36. Now one's on sale on E-Pay starting at about $40.... *NOTHING* gets trashed anymore. Not even those XT mobos I can't *currently* think of any use for... -dq From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Apr 19 15:07:25 2002 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066602@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <20020419200725.GA5805@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:36:15AM -0500, Doc wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > > > > >1.) Run Norton WipeDisk pgm writing 1s & 0s three times. > > >2.) Low level format > > >3.) WipeDisk three more times. > > > > > >Trust me, when I was done, there wasn't anything recoverable there. > > > > If you did: > > > > 4) Smash disk into small pieces and heat until > > molten slag > > OK. I have a much better, more secure way to obliterate data from > IDE/SCSI drives. > Just > > 1) Remove partitions > 2) Donate drives anonymously to local Linux/*BSD User Group Oh, oh. In this case, better-than-average (usually) technical knowledge and curiosity form an interesting mix. The first that would happen to those disk is someone trying to get at whatever data has been on these disks before (I already found some pretty amusing things on SCSI disks I bought used). I'd rather follow the data destruction the US military is reported to use for disks that at some point have may been tainted by secret data: 1. run disk wiping tool, writing several patterns in several cycles, 2. smash disk with big sledge hammers, 3. mix disk remains with liberal amounts of thermite, 4. ignite, 5. smash slag with sledge hammers, 6. if anything remains that can be identified as part of an harddrive, goto 3, 7. transport remains with armed transport to secure dump facility, 8. let it sit there under the eyes of armed guards until hell freezes over or nobody even knows that there could once have been data on these destroyed disks - whatever happens first, I've no idea if this bears any similarity to fact, but this description has been circulation for some time ;-) Regards, Alex. -- We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom be better served if we killed them instead? -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 19 15:14:13 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784464@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > >when Warp came out. It was so cool to be able to play a > game while using > >Prodigy on my Hayes Smartmodem 2400 at the same time. > > > >Peace... Sridhar > I see I wasn't the only one doing that :^) I also liked > being able to cut Careful, or you'll be setting around in a storage locker, writing BASIC programs on your PC Junior before you know it ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Apr 19 15:18:51 2002 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: References: <008301c1e7aa$20ac3da0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20020419201851.GB5805@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:17:46AM -0500, Doc wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. > You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang > in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP > server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. > > I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read > my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that > happens. > Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well > go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! I remember this behaviour from Windows 3.1 - format a floppy and you might as well go grab a book. Enter OS/2: start formatting a floppy and do something else on the machine until it is done (which didn't take long). I suppose that: - since Windows 3.1 couldn't do real (preemptive) multitasking (only cooperative), it basically stopped everything else, - this code was carried through to whatever flavour of Windows is sold currently (hell, I had system error boxes with the Windows 3.1 widget set pop up at me on some lusers Win9X machines), Fortunately for me, I first switched from Windows 3.1 to OS/2 (Warp 3 at the time, still have the red box around somewhere) and from that to Linux, currently using only $UNIX (of several flavors) for my own needs and touching Windows only when paid to do so and absolutely unavoidable. I regularly marvel at some of more the boneheaded things Windows does - if one were to write a dedicated sabotage program, one couldn't do better. Regards, Alex. -- We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom be better served if we killed them instead? -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Apr 19 15:21:23 2002 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <15552.18174.44441.340682@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3CBF8E09.EC0B3278@jetnet.ab.ca> <15551.39810.291736.282313@phaduka.neurotica.com> <008301c1e7aa$20ac3da0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <15552.18174.44441.340682@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20020419202123.GC5805@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 12:34:06PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 19, John Allain wrote: > > > Why do people use PeeCees, again? Pathetic, indeed. > > > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > > > Pathetique! > > So everyone's complaining about PeeCees, but some people are still > using them. THIS is what I don't understand. It's the most common and usually most affordable type of machine. But put some usable OS (i.e. one of the free UNIX systems) on it and you have a usable system. Regards, Alex. -- We're gonna be body guards for teen rock-stars. Wouldn't the cause of freedom be better served if we killed them instead? -- Schlock from the ''Schlock Mercenary'' comic strip From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 19 15:31:59 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads In-Reply-To: <10204191908.ZM25385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Douglas H. Quebbeman" <000701c1e7ba$0a467ed0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020419153035.02481b10@pc> At 06:08 PM 4/19/2002 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >Well, if you're going to go into digital signal processing, why not just >use a 9-track head, and analyse the data from adjacent tracks to recombine >into 7 tracks? ;-) Or for that matter, the seven "heads" could be displaced along the path of the tape, and the software would handle the realignment of the time domain. Or you could read less than 7 tracks at a time, and reassemble in software. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 15:35:18 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784464@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Careful, or you'll be setting around in a storage locker, writing > BASIC programs on your PC Junior before you know it ;) Not enough Zuse. Besides, the Jr did not have DMA for floppy access (like the Tandy 1000), so it would lock out EVERYTHING during floppy I/O. From foo at siconic.com Fri Apr 19 15:47:52 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <164458323995.20020419111150@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > I would like to identify the book that was my first book on computers, > with which I learned BASIC on a diskless TRS-80 Model II in the fifth > grade. The book was small, about the same size as a TV Guide but maybe > twice as thick. It had a blue cover, I think, with maybe a drawing of a > TRS-80 on the front. Does this ring any bells? TRS-80 Model II? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 19 16:18:22 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads References: <"Douglas H. Quebbeman" <000701c1e7ba$0a467ed0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20020419153035.02481b10@pc> Message-ID: <3CC0899E.C841B295@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: > Or for that matter, the seven "heads" could be displaced > along the path of the tape, and the software would handle > the realignment of the time domain. Or you could read > less than 7 tracks at a time, and reassemble in software. > > - John Nope --- I would guess a 7 track head is needed, as you only get one time to read the tape. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 16:21:35 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 19, 2002 03:14:13 PM Message-ID: <200204192121.g3JLLZ017357@shell1.aracnet.com> > > >when Warp came out. It was so cool to be able to play a > > game while using > > >Prodigy on my Hayes Smartmodem 2400 at the same time. > > > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > > I see I wasn't the only one doing that :^) I also liked > > being able to cut > > Careful, or you'll be setting around in a storage locker, writing > BASIC programs on your PC Junior before you know it ;) Not likely, I don't have electricity in my storage units, and the only receptical is a LONG ways away! Besides my wife wouldn't like me hiding out up there, she doesn't mind when I hid out in the computer room at home. Oh, and then there is the fact that if I'm going to be writing something in BASIC, it's going to be on a PDP-10, PDP-11 or a VMS box. Which brings up the question of how do you clear the screen on a VT100 using BASIC-PLUS-2? The following works on my Alpha using DEC BASIC, and looks like it should work using BASIC-PLUS-2. 1 declare string constant CLS = ESC + "[H" + ESC + "[J" 110 print CLS Zane From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Apr 19 16:00:42 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Solid State Music MB-3 EPROM card question In-Reply-To: "Erik S. Klein"'s message of "Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:20:51 -0700" References: Message-ID: <200204192100.g3JL0gMk005091@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Erik S. Klein" wrote: > code. The board has two sets of four dip switches. One is > labeled T1 to T4 and the other A12 to A15. A jumper on the > board that allows settings between 2k and 4k is set to 4k > (1702s vs 1701s?) In the absence of documentation, one trick is to examine memory looking for plausible code for your processor. So you learn how to use the front panel to examine memory (and maybe how to deposit too, as that's one way to tell whether the address you're looking at might be read-only) and maybe learn something about the processor's instruction set too. A12 to A15 likely set the board's base memory address at a 4KB boundary with A15 being the most significant bit (and A14, A13, A12 being the next three bits down). A switch set to "on" or "closed" might be 0 or 1, so pick one and write the bits out in A15 through A12 order. Then invert it (1 becomes 0, 0 becomes 1) and write that group of bits out. Now you have two ways to set the high four address switches on the front panel, which cuts the amount of address space you have to explore by 1/8. A 1702 is, what, a 1Kbit device? That's 128 bytes. So start with the low seven address switches set to 0. You can probably assume that the ROMs are each based at a 128-byte boundary. This leaves you five switches in the middle, so 32 steps for each of the ways you can set the high four bits. -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 19 16:32:48 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: Tom Uban "Re: 20mA serial cable connector" (Apr 19, 13:52) References: <3.0.5.32.20020418171133.00a29500@ubanproductions.com> <3CC007F7.33A69C5@gifford.co.uk> <3.0.5.32.20020419135241.00836b20@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <10204192232.ZM25833@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 19, 13:52, Tom Uban wrote: > >Peter Turnbull wrote: > >They're not Molex, they're AMP, and since they're the pins for that series > >of connector they'll work fine. > Yes, the connectors are AMP. Here is what I got back from Tyco/AMP when I > made an inquiry about them: > The item you are questioning was obsoleted in 1997 with no replacements. I > do not find anything similar to this item nor do we show any stock left in > inventory. I do not see where any distributor has any inventory either. We > would not be able to offer a solution unless you can change you design to > one of the other Commercial MNL products. Ms Hughes was referring to the housings of course; the pins that fit the housings are still a current standard product. AMP changed some of the part numbers some time ago, but they are still the same pins that fit the rest of the Commercial Mate-N-Lok range, which includes the ones used for drive power (not the little ones for 3.5" floppies, though -- those are 2.5mm AMP Economy Interconnect). The point being that if you can find some old connectors, you can replace the pins. The part numbers for the crimp contacts are: socket connector, 18-20AWG 163304-2 socket connector, 14-18AWG 163306-2 pin connector, 18-20AWG 163305-2 pin connector, 14-18AWG 163305-2 and you should be able to find them in the AMP catalogue or any of several dealer/distributor catalogues. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 19 16:59:32 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Myths Persist Forever Message-ID: <000701c1e7ed$7d272f70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:17:46AM -0500, Doc wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: > > > > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > > > OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. > > You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang > > in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP > > server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. > > > > I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read > > my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that happens. > > Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well > > go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. > > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! > > I remember this behaviour from Windows 3.1 - format a floppy and you > might as well go grab a book. Enter OS/2: start formatting a floppy and > do something else on the machine until it is done (which didn't take > long). I suppose that: > - since Windows 3.1 couldn't do real (preemptive) multitasking (only > cooperative), it basically stopped everything else, > - this code was carried through to whatever flavour of Windows is sold > currently (hell, I had system error boxes with the Windows 3.1 widget > set pop up at me on some lusers Win9X machines), I can cut/copy text from any GIU program and paste into any text window. I can cut/copy text from any text windows into any GUI program. I can format floppies while running IE5.5, Outlook98, and OE5.5, with a Modula-2 programming environment running and a copy of the CDC 6000 emulator running the Chippewa Operating System. Under Windows 2000. On an 800MHz P-III w/256MB of RAM. Not a killer machine. Windows sucks for anough real reasons that it's really not necessary to perpetuate myths and half-truths.... Ok, My Milage May Vary... -dq From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 19 17:17:50 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Solid State Music MB-3 EPROM card question Message-ID: <200204192217.PAA28123@clulw009.amd.com> > >"Erik S. Klein" wrote: >> code. The board has two sets of four dip switches. One is >> labeled T1 to T4 and the other A12 to A15. A jumper on the >> board that allows settings between 2k and 4k is set to 4k >> (1702s vs 1701s?) Hi Both the 1702 and 1701 were the same size. There were originally 4 parts; 1601, 1602, 1701 and 1702. I forget which was which but I think it was that the 160x were syncronous bus and the 1x01's were open collector as compared to 1x02's that were 3state. If anyone cares, I can look it up in my doc's to get it right. By the time the 1702A's came out, I don't think anyone saw the others. Dwight From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Apr 19 17:48:48 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Myths Persist Forever References: <000701c1e7ed$7d272f70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CC09ED0.9060202@dragonsweb.org> Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >>On Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 10:17:46AM -0500, Doc wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, John Allain wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML >>>>pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html >>>>files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it >>>>took over 30 Minutes to write! >>> >>>OK. This is completely off topic, but it has bugged me for years. >>>You guys are more likely to know, and care, than any other forum I hang >>>in. I use a Linux PC as my daily workstation, file server, DNS, MOP >>>server, etc. Given hardware limitations, it's stable enough. >>> >>>I can start a lowlevel format on a floppy, go and surf the net, read >>>my email, compile software, or play a game while (45-75 secs) that happens. >>>Do that in Win on the same hardware, and I might as well >>>go make coffee. Same comparison applies to printing large documents. >>>WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a >>>1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! >> >>I remember this behaviour from Windows 3.1 - format a floppy and you >>might as well go grab a book. Enter OS/2: start formatting a floppy and >>do something else on the machine until it is done (which didn't take >>long). I suppose that: >>- since Windows 3.1 couldn't do real (preemptive) multitasking (only >> cooperative), it basically stopped everything else, >>- this code was carried through to whatever flavour of Windows is sold >> currently (hell, I had system error boxes with the Windows 3.1 widget >> set pop up at me on some lusers Win9X machines), > > > I can cut/copy text from any GIU program and paste into any text window. > I can cut/copy text from any text windows into any GUI program. > I can format floppies while running IE5.5, Outlook98, and OE5.5, with a > Modula-2 programming environment running and a copy of the CDC 6000 > emulator running the Chippewa Operating System. > > Under Windows 2000. On an 800MHz P-III w/256MB of RAM. Not a killer > machine. > > Windows sucks for anough real reasons that it's really not necessary > to perpetuate myths and half-truths.... > > Ok, My Milage May Vary... -dq > > Win2K is "Windows" only by virtue of the marketing dept. It's really NT, which is a lot closer to OS/2 and/or VMS than Windows, internally. I have a copy of 3.1 Advanced Server which will be topical in the not too distant future. Never even installed it, by the time I got a capable machine I had moved entirely to Linux, but I believe it will format in the background no problem. I remember Amiga users in the late '80s proudly demonstrating floppy formatting while online, rendering graphics, running a vidcam, copying files on the HD, and playing games. Tending to shut the DOS crowd up for a while. (Eventually the response would be a total non-sequitur like, "Well, who really needs multitasking, anyway?") jbdigriz From foo at siconic.com Fri Apr 19 17:55:06 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: <200204191740.NAA28127@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > After hearing about this on this list, last night I heard about it on > > > CNN Headline news :-) > > > > You are kidding me! I HATE CNN! > > > > Umm... Where else are you supposed to get news (on TV) these days? ;) Fox?! You call what CNN proffers "news"? Ha. No, Fox is just as bad as CNN, if not worse (biased, inflammatory, and sometimes downright ignorant or erroneous reporting and editorializing). I listen to Howard Stern when I want to hear an inflammatory asshole. I don't want that from my "real" news. Try MSNBC. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 18:00:46 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <3CC04BCB.8030800@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > I have reinstalled OS'es on used machines for people who got them from > 3rd parties. I no longer even bother to see what's on them. You don't > even want to know what some people have on their disks. Trust me. It's like doing laundry for a living. The first 50 frilly brassieres I saw _may_ have been interesting, but the 500th one is just another dirty rag. Then again, there was a guy here about 3 years ago who took his PC in to Dell for warranty repairs. With a couple gigs of child porn on the drive. The Dell tech noticed some odd filenames on the Start menu's "Documents" list and found the stash. Dell fixed the computer, called the guy to come get it, and the idiot did. The FBI met him at his car. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 18:10:19 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > Chris, if you get the chance can you find out if they're CISC or RISC > > > machines? > > > > If it's "coke machine sized" and surplus, it's CISC. > > Not necessarily. I find the amazing deals by doing the footwork and > looking at anything that seems too good to be true. You are, of course, exactly right. I should have said "probably". I had forgotten that some of (all?) the rackmount RISC models are beige. And cool, late-model stuff does escape into the wild now and then. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 18:11:39 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! > > That was one of the things IBM bragged about in the OS/2 2.0 ads. That > you could continue with your word processor while you formatted a floppy. > Windows could not even come close at the time. I already knew that every other OS that runs on PC does it right. I'd like to know how M$ got it so horribly wrong.... Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 18:19:53 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: Re: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look (Doc Shipley) References: Message-ID: <15552.42521.194038.836731@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > WHAT is M$ doing that operating a floppy disk drive takes ALL of a > > > 1.4GHz CPU and 512M of memory? I wanna know! > > > > That was one of the things IBM bragged about in the OS/2 2.0 ads. That > > you could continue with your word processor while you formatted a floppy. > > Windows could not even come close at the time. > > I already knew that every other OS that runs on PC does it right. I'd > like to know how M$ got it so horribly wrong.... They're not exactly known for knowing what they're doing. To steal a phrase from my grandmother, those guys "couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the side". -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 18:24:20 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The trick is to run a good OS, and carefully craft a system to run it using > good parts. Absolutely. Plus, IMHO, 2 other major players in PC instability. Fully half the constant-crash problems I see on home-built or local-shop PCs are due to improper cooling and/or a cheap low-Watt PSU. I worked on an E-Machine a couple of weeks ago that was delivered with a K6/2 450 CPU and a $10 HS/fan combo, with no thermal paste at all. A 7200rpm ATA100 drive, CD-RW, Jazz drive, and 90W PSU. The owner told me "It crashes a lot." Duh.... I run at least a 300W PSU and lots o' fans on anything I want stable. It's louder, more expensive, and probably excessive. It gives me warm & fuzzies. Doc From lemay at itlabs.umn.edu Fri Apr 19 18:33:38 2002 From: lemay at itlabs.umn.edu (Lawrence T. LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:50 2005 Subject: Tinnerman nuts In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146783E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <200204192333.SAA01735@batman.itlabs.umn.edu> Ok, I forget who exactly started this thread. But, I asked Joe Moir (the DEC reseller who has been unfairly bashed on this list reciently for asking if some of us were interested in a VAX 11/785, and before that for a Prime computer), and being the nice guy he is, he went and grabbed all the tinnerman nuts off of a rack that was scheduled to be scrapped. He didnt charge me anything, not even for shipping them to me. So, I have 26 Tinnerman nuts, who wants em? They are the ones with the metal bent into a flat C shape, with a nut attached. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > > --- David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Carl --- > > > That's close, but what I'm looking for clips around the rails, not > > > into the hole, which is round. This looks almost exactly like it, at the > > > bottom of the page... > > > "Palnut Multi-Thread U-Nut" > > > http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/retaining/palunut.html > > > ..that's it, I think... > > > > That doesn't exactly resemble the ones I'm used to seeing - as mentioned, > > the difference appears to be "bolt" vs "screw" fastening. > > > > > > From: Carl Lowenstein > > > > > > > > You would be happier with the type of fastener that uses real machine > > > > screws rather than the sheet-metal type screws that some racks have. > > > > There is a nice picture of them on the Tinnerman Web site at > > > > > > > > < http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/nutretcat.html > > > > > I've used plenty of these with modern racks, but since DEC racks have > > round mounting holes, not square, the rack-mount nuts I have more > > closely resemble these - > > > > http://www.tt-ec.com/showcase/nutbolt/utype.html > > > > ... but with a u-shaped cutout to snap into place in a round hole. > > > > -ethan > > > Not surprised that DEC used different fasteners. Here is a larger > pic of what my fasteners looks like... > http://www.tt-ec.com/graphics/showcase/retaining/palunutmt.gif > ... and it uses Philips-head screws for the mounting. > I'll try some of the auto/body shops around here, see if I can get a > decent price, otherwise Graybar (down the street from my house) should have > something... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 18:49:48 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Russ Blakeman wrote: > HOT day here, musta been rambling, although I'm not sure they even classify > the 390 as a mainframe - most literature and such refers to it as a server. > On anohter subject somewhat related, I hear they're pretty decent Linux > boxes - or at least the pricing for the Linux is likely better than for > OS/390. I may have even been think along the lines of the S/38. Sridhar probably has more to say. IBM gets a lot of press mileage out of running Linux native on the 390. But ALL the folks I know who actually run production S/390s like VM + virtual Linux servers much better. Makes sense to me as the best of both worlds. I should say 10s of thousands of virtual Linux servers.... Doc From red at bears.org Fri Apr 19 18:49:55 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Doc Shipley wrote: > You are, of course, exactly right. I should have said "probably". I > had forgotten that some of (all?) the rackmount RISC models are beige. > And cool, late-model stuff does escape into the wild now and then. None of the RISC AS/400s are beige. Barring yellow, red, purple, copper or other colored accenting, RISC AS/400s are all black. No AS/400 ever ran OS/390. None. All CISC AS/400s ran OS/400 V3R2 or earlier. All. OS/400 V4 may be transferred with the hardware. No CISC AS/400s ran OS/400 V4. None. OS/400 prior to V4 is not transferrable to other than the original owner. Period. Some RISC AS/400s ran OS/400 V3R6 or V3R7. IBM licensing terms for OS/400 V3 state unequivocally that it must be removed from the machine before de-installation. If IBM does the de-installation, there is no software on your AS/400 that once ran V3, whether CISC or RISC. The cheapest OS/400 V4 license available from IBM currently, is for the 9406-170 (P05 processor class, 5 users). OS/400 for that system will run you approximately $2500. If you have a P20-class system, like a 9406-500, OS/400 will set you back $26,000. A 9406-500 is still relatively small. In 99% of the forseeable scenarios, a CISC AS/400 is less than worthless. Without software installed, or original media (which is tied to a system serial number), it is impossible to do anything with a CISC AS/400. You cannot buy OS/400 V3 from IBM. They will tell you to scram. It will not run Linux. It will not run NetBSD. A RISC AS/400 that had been running V3 is nearly worthless. At least a RISC AS/400 will run V4, which is (for now) still available from IBM, though at a high cost. IBM guards AS/400 software and IP very jealously. FWIW the AS/400 is essentially the follow-on to the System/36, to the point of having a highly-evolved software environment allowing S/36 applications to run un-modified on AS/400. Supposedly there is some dotted-line relationship to S/38 as well, but I don't have any real information about that. Anything else? ok r. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 19:05:00 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: No such thing as scrap (Was: Re: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac))") In-Reply-To: <006a01c1e7dd$42c80d00$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > The last computer equipment I sent to the junkyard were > pieces and parts of an IBM 711 Card Reader and 716 Line > Printer that I could kick myself over. > > Before that, I stripped the switches and LEDS from a control > panel from a System/36. Now one's on sale on E-Pay starting > at about $40.... > > *NOTHING* gets trashed anymore. Not even those XT mobos > I can't *currently* think of any use for... Dude. I feel your pain. We probably all have similar regrets. I do. OK. Not Tony, Sridhar or Sellam. The rest of us. :^) Doc From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 19 19:06:31 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: <15552.42521.194038.836731@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > They're not exactly known for knowing what they're doing. To steal a > phrase from my grandmother, those guys "couldn't pour piss out of a > boot with the instructions written on the side". "...on the heel" is the way my grandfather told it :) - don > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 19:09:18 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area (Russ Blakeman) References: <3CC05835.3050902@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15552.45486.905090.943012@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, Russ Blakeman wrote: > HOT day here, musta been rambling, although I'm not sure they even classify > the 390 as a mainframe - most literature and such refers to it as a server. The do indeed classify the S/390 as a mainframe...because, well, that's what it is. :-) The 390 architecture is an evolution of, and is largely compatible with, the S/370 family and related architectures...which (as far as I know, I'm not a mainframe expert..yet!) started with the S/360 back in the 1960s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 14:48:10 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 18, 2 05:50:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020419/0eddac06/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 17:39:28 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: <20020419013251.GA11905@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Apr 18, 2 09:32:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020419/b60b37a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 18:24:50 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: <20020419122644.A414002@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Apr 19, 2 12:26:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/f3b1916c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 18:27:51 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: <3CC007F7.33A69C5@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Apr 19, 2 01:05:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 529 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/ae608e46/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 18:10:54 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Office Max events In-Reply-To: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 19, 2 01:25:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 573 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/30848a6a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 18:38:02 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 19, 2 09:19:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1336 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/59fac38e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 19:12:27 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: ASR33 print head In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Apr 19, 2 10:35:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 595 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/f9aaa63c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 19 19:17:16 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <164458323995.20020419111150@subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey Sharp" at Apr 19, 2 11:11:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 432 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/f092f2ec/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 19:38:07 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: from "Doc" at Apr 19, 2002 06:24:20 PM Message-ID: <200204200038.g3K0c7h26625@shell1.aracnet.com> > Absolutely. Plus, IMHO, 2 other major players in PC instability. > Fully half the constant-crash problems I see on home-built or local-shop > PCs are due to improper cooling and/or a cheap low-Watt PSU. > I worked on an E-Machine a couple of weeks ago that was delivered with > a K6/2 450 CPU and a $10 HS/fan combo, with no thermal paste at all. A > 7200rpm ATA100 drive, CD-RW, Jazz drive, and 90W PSU. The owner told > me "It crashes a lot." Duh.... > I run at least a 300W PSU and lots o' fans on anything I want stable. > It's louder, more expensive, and probably excessive. It gives me warm & > fuzzies. > > Doc Now that you mention it I don't think my XP system has crashed once since I got the cooling under control, it has only crashed twice. The amazing thing is that the i850GB motherboard is supposed to require a minimum of 250W PS, and I've got a 240W PS with a Pentium IV, and 512MB RDRAM, as well as other bells and whistles. Up until I added a couple fans and those cool round cables you can buy now, it was having real heat problems. That's one advantage of a lot of the classic hardware, less heat problems (unless it's something like a Q-Bus or Unibus system, my PDP-11/44 can really kick out the heat). Zane From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 19 20:19:42 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <15552.18174.44441.340682@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 19, 2 12:34:06 pm" Message-ID: <200204200119.SAA24764@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Why do people use PeeCees, again? Pathetic, indeed. > > > > I encoded some family geneology into set of frame HTML > > pages once. It turned out to be something line 600 small html > > files, 300 KBytes or so. When I went to put it on a floppy, it > > took over 30 Minutes to write! > > > > Pathetique! > > So everyone's complaining about PeeCees, but some people are still > using them. THIS is what I don't understand. Don't look at me. A Power Mac 7300 and a Commodore 128 sit on my desk, and the two PCs only exist to run old PC games that VPC won't, and to do floppy archiving for the Commodore. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 19 20:21:25 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <200204200038.g3K0c7h26625@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now that you mention it I don't think my XP system has crashed once since I > got the cooling under control, it has only crashed twice. The amazing thing > is that the i850GB motherboard is supposed to require a minimum of 250W PS, > and I've got a 240W PS with a Pentium IV, and 512MB RDRAM, as well as other > bells and whistles. Speaking as a generally unwilling but frequent Fixer-of-Busted-PCs, I'd highly recommend spending a few bucks on a 300W-400W PSU. A lot of the better PC power supplies are rated 10-15% below their real max, so I'm not surprised that yours is working, for now. I'd bet that's part of the thermal problem, though - an overworked power supply throws a lot of heat. I'd also bet large odds the PSU doesn't last very long. "Commodity Hardware" isn't an idle epithet. Fortunately, the concept includes cheap fixing. Doc From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Apr 19 21:32:59 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > [2] THe most beautiful processor I've seen? The HP9100 one, of course. > > -tony > > I think the most beautiful processor I've seen is CPU card of the Symbolics 3645. The wiring and chip layout are really nice. One thing that always impressed me about that machine is that the disk label is in ASCII text! Of course it has a 68000 with a decent amount of ROM space (the FEP) to boot from... The Symbolics and the Xerox WS running Interlisp always seemed to be the most "alive" computers I've used, which I think has something to do with how much the command interpreter, shell, etc knows about things... Peter Wallace From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 19 21:49:47 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15552.45486.905090.943012@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > The do indeed classify the S/390 as a mainframe...because, well, > that's what it is. :-) Not any more - they are all "servers". xSeries, iSeries, pSeries, and zSeries (the z's being the S/390 followups). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 19 21:55:40 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Some RISC AS/400s ran OS/400 V3R6 or V3R7. Watch out how you throw arounds those "nevers", "alls", and "nones". Those words tend to bite people in the butt. > FWIW the AS/400 is essentially the follow-on to the System/36, to the > point of having a highly-evolved software environment allowing S/36 > applications to run un-modified on AS/400. Supposedly there is some > dotted-line relationship to S/38 as well, but I don't have any real > information about that. The other way round, architecturally. AS/400 gained most from S/38 and FS. The whole AS/400 family was designed to replace S/32, S/34, S/36, and S/38. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 19 22:02:18 2002 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020420030243.HTNI28359.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> On Friday 19 April 2002 19:49, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > A RISC AS/400 that had been running V3 is nearly worthless. At least a > RISC AS/400 will run V4, which is (for now) still available from IBM, > though at a high cost. I have a pair of 9404's with terminals and networking hubs and cables. Are there any parts in them that may be used in other systems? Harddrives, tapedrives, chips? From red at bears.org Fri Apr 19 22:04:56 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > > Some RISC AS/400s ran OS/400 V3R6 or V3R7. > > Watch out how you throw arounds those "nevers", "alls", and "nones". > Those words tend to bite people in the butt. I chose them very carefully. For example, there are a small number of CISC models in black. But yes, it's an excellent point. (; ok r. From red at bears.org Fri Apr 19 22:21:27 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <20020420030243.HTNI28359.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Mike wrote: > I have a pair of 9404's with terminals and networking hubs and cables. > Are there any parts in them that may be used in other systems? It depends on what the parts are. There is at least some chance, anyway. Token ring is token ring (leaving out Apollos and at least as far as IEEE 802.5 is concerned). SCSI devices are, for the most part, SCSI devices. If you want to get out a soldering iron, I'm sure the memory chips could be salvaged. How much work do you want to do? Can you use a twinax terminal with a Mac IIci? Probably not in a foreseeably useful manner, anyway. If you've got the cabling for the twinaxial workstation controller, you could try sending it to Geoff Roberts, down in Australia. ok r. From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 19 22:36:17 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins > > out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on > > disk and tape drives. We just stuck the pins in the appropriate > > sockets and left it at that! Being careful not to pull on the > > wire, of course. > > Couldn't you get a strip of plastic and drill some suitable (stepped) > holes in it to hold the pins? OK, it wouldn't lock to the socket, and it > would probably fit either way up, but at least the pins would be kept in > the right sequence. > > -tony > Another possibility, depending on the shape of the receptacle recess, might be to encapsulate the pins(?) with RTV. Same caveats as Tony cited above. - don From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Apr 19 22:35:58 2002 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <20020420030243.HTNI28359.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@there> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Mike wrote: > On Friday 19 April 2002 19:49, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > I have a pair of 9404's with terminals and networking hubs and cables. > Are there any parts in them that may be used in other systems? > > Harddrives, tapedrives, chips? > CISC 9404 and 9402's that I have seen typically have crappy 150MB oem Tandberg QIC tape drives. Supposedly they are very finicky with their SCSI-I. I never bothered to do much with mine. The disk drives (if not too small to be useful) can be reformatted to 512 byte sectors and used elsewhere. I am using an IBM 0661 now from an AS/400 in a Netbsd DECstation 5000/260 as a second drive. I had a CISC 9402 which had normal looking SIMMs in it, tho I never bothered to figure out if they actually did fit in anything else. I have not had my mits on a RISC model to date. -- From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 19 22:51:53 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) References: Message-ID: <3CC0E5D9.CE314F8E@compsys.to> >Doc wrote: > I run at least a 300W PSU and lots o' fans on anything I want stable. > It's louder, more expensive, and probably excessive. It gives me warm & > fuzzies. Jerome Fine replies: On the system which has 16 drives, the 300 W PSU is used ONLY for the 3 EIDE hard drives, the 2 floppy drives and the 2 IDE CDROM drives - plus the motherboard. Since the EIDE hard drives are hanging outside of the box, there are enough air currents to keep them cool and the CPU has its own fan. In that mode, it is EXTREMELY quiet. When anything else is turned on, I use an additional 300 W PSU to power up to 5 SCSI hard drives with 2 fans and an Iomega Zip drive. If the Sony SMO drives are used, they are external boxes with their own PSU. I realize that 2 * 300 W PSU is overkill for the 13 drives and motherboard, but I also believe that ONE 300 W PSU is much too tight for that size of a load. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From spc at conman.org Fri Apr 19 23:07:42 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 20, 2002 12:38:02 AM Message-ID: <200204200407.AAA04429@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > Still, what do you expect from a system of units where one of the base > units -- by its very name -- is clearly 1000 times something else (I am > thinking of the kilogram, of course) I thought the gram was the base unit, which is one cubic centemeter of water at 4 Celcius (when water is at its most dense). -spc (Okay, so maybe kilogram is the most convenient unit here ... ) From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 19 23:16:48 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) References: Message-ID: <3CC0EBB0.2030102@internet1.net> Since it's been so hot I had to pop the top off of my PC. The top of the case was getting hot!! It's an AMD K6-2 stuffed with cards, all in a desktop PC case built in 96, so it would have been designed for high power 486's or low end pentiums. I found the heatsink on my STB Velocity 4400 was too hot to touch, even with the top off, all day. Temporarily, I've got a fan sitting on top of the cards and the power supply. It's cooled off a lot!! I need to poke a hole in the case an permanently install that fan. A guy at work mentioned I may be over loading my power supply, too. I had never thought of that. I think mine is only a 230 watter. I think I may be replacing it with a higher wattage unit to be on the safe side. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Doc wrote: > Speaking as a generally unwilling but frequent Fixer-of-Busted-PCs, > I'd highly recommend spending a few bucks on a 300W-400W PSU. A lot of > the better PC power supplies are rated 10-15% below their real max, so > I'm not surprised that yours is working, for now. I'd bet that's > part of the thermal problem, though - an overworked power supply throws > a lot of heat. I'd also bet large odds the PSU doesn't last very long. > "Commodity Hardware" isn't an idle epithet. Fortunately, the concept > includes cheap fixing. > > Doc > > > From rhb57 at vol.com Fri Apr 19 23:18:40 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Who needed the Compaq Deskpro 286 "softPaQ" link? Here it is... Message-ID: Found this in my bookmarks from the last one I had to reload: http://www.compaq.com/support/files/obsolete_diagnostics.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020419/7e867369/attachment.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 19 23:22:50 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look References: Message-ID: <3CC0ED1A.805CCD7D@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > They're not exactly known for knowing what they're doing. To steal a > > phrase from my grandmother, those guys "couldn't pour piss out of a > > boot with the instructions written on the side". > > "...on the heel" is the way my grandfather told it :) They could'nt find the heel! But they sure can pour the piss into the boot! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From lists at subatomix.com Fri Apr 19 23:53:50 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126504044257.20020419235350@subatomix.com> On Friday, April 19, 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > I would like to identify the book that was my first book on computers, > > with which I learned BASIC on a diskless TRS-80 Model II in the fifth > > grade. The > > Could you give us the YEAR, instead of your age? Oops. 1988-1989. And it was the 4th grade. > Sure that it was a model II? (That had vertical 8 inch drives) Oops. It was a Model III, diskless, with 4K RAM. I always cornfuse the II and III. Maybe it had Level II basic. Maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. > > book was small, about the same size as a TV Guide but maybe twice as > > thick. It had a blue cover, I think, with maybe a drawing of a TRS-80 on > > the front. Does this ring any bells? > > Most of the BASIC books that Tandy used were by David Lien. So what's my book? I'd look on eBay, but that's in that half of the 'net that is currently inaccessible due to my cable company's migration away from RoadRunner. -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 20 00:01:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <3CC0EBB0.2030102@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Temporarily, I've got a fan sitting on top of the cards and the power > supply. It's cooled off a lot!! I need to poke a hole in the case an > permanently install that fan. Cheapskate's Drive Fan Recipe: One 486-early-Pentium CPU fan w/HDD-style power input One 5.25" drive-bay cover 4 2.5mm x 10mm woodscrews 1 Dremel Tool or Flexshaft Cut a round hole in the bay cover, the diameter of the fan itself or slightly smaller. Drill mount holes to match the fan housing. Slot the cover to accomodate the power leads - either in from the edge or out from the fan opening. Screw fan to cover, plug to spare power lead, clip bay cover into place. If you're as anal as I am, grind screw points flush to the plastic on the inside. Much cheaper & much quieter than the commercial bay coolers. If your PSU sucks air into the case, orient the fan to blow out, or vice versa. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 20 00:46:32 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <126504044257.20020419235350@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > Oops. It was a Model III, diskless, with 4K RAM. I always cornfuse the II > and III. Maybe it had Level II basic. Maybe I just don't know what I'm > talking about. You are not alone. MOST people get those confused. With that high a percentage of model name misidentification, it becomes Tandy's problem. Oh well, it's better than the way that MICROS~1 names products. > So what's my book? I'd look on eBay, but that's in that half of the 'net > that is currently inaccessible due to my cable company's migration away from > RoadRunner. I'll check on Monday to see if there's enough left of my model 3 stuff to identify it. From hansp at aconit.org Sat Apr 20 03:01:51 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor source reconstruction References: <20020418161541.30491.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> <3CBEF909.1030702@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CC1206F.5050808@aconit.org> Latest version of monitor source : www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/monitor.txt PDF files of scanned pages (as downloaded fRom Rich Cini's site) : pages 1-47 : www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/amonrom1.pdf (all done) pages 48-97 : www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/amonrom2.pdf Pages done : 1-47, 56-63, 97 (56/97 = 58% done) Allocated : Hans Pufal 64 onwards Ethan Dicks 48-55 Dwight K Elvey 90-96 If you want to help out contact me off list for page numbers, but hurry not many pages left ;-) -- hbp From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 20 03:50:27 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: 20mA serial cable connector" (Apr 19, 20:36) References: Message-ID: <10204200950.ZM27092@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 19, 20:36, Don Maslin wrote: > On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins > > > out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on > > > disk and tape drives. We just stuck the pins in the appropriate > > > sockets and left it at that! Being careful not to pull on the > > > wire, of course. > > > > Couldn't you get a strip of plastic and drill some suitable (stepped) > > holes in it to hold the pins? OK, it wouldn't lock to the socket, and it > > would probably fit either way up, but at least the pins would be kept in > > the right sequence. > Another possibility, depending on the shape of the receptacle recess, > might be to encapsulate the pins(?) with RTV. Same caveats as Tony > cited above. Yet another revolutionary idea might be to buy a few of the correct housings :-) They're made by AMP, by the way, not Molex. They're readily avaialble from any AMP supplier, and very cheap. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 20 03:49:33 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Connect from floppies?? Message-ID: <3CC12B9D.1000707@internet1.net> Hello, I'm trying to install Warp 3 Connect on my 9577 from floppies. I made the floppies from the cd-rom, but when I try to install it, I don't get the network options to choose. It's as if I didn't even have a network card installed. I have a 3Com 3C529-TP Does it have to be installed by cd-rom to get network support? The manual doesn't seem to mention floppies, only the cd-rom. Help!!! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 05:09:40 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Secret Mac In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784463@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Shred the disks. Take the even numbered and odd numbered > > shreds and burn > > them in separate incinerators, and bury the ash in two different > > landfills. > > No, I've got it. Slag the disks, and then make the slag into 20 > pieces of cursed jewelry. > > Three Platters for the Elven-kings under the sky > Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone > Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, > One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne > In the land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. > One Platter to rule them all, One Platter to find them, > One Platter to bring them all and in the darkness bind them, > In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. Hahahaha. Excellent! Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 05:13:06 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Questing again Message-ID: Hello. I am questing again, for the following parts: IBM RS/6000 7250 attachment adapter for MCA. This is the card that you hook a POWER GXT1000 graphics system into. IBM 6091-023 23" monitor. I actually want more than one, but one will do splendidly for the moment. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 05:22:00 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784464@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > >when Warp came out. It was so cool to be able to play a > > game while using > > >Prodigy on my Hayes Smartmodem 2400 at the same time. > > > I see I wasn't the only one doing that :^) I also liked > > being able to cut > > Careful, or you'll be setting around in a storage locker, writing > BASIC programs on your PC Junior before you know it ;) At least get it right: It was an IBM 5155 PPC. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 05:30:12 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: OT: Myths Persist Forever In-Reply-To: <000701c1e7ed$7d272f70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > I can cut/copy text from any GIU program and paste into any text window. > I can cut/copy text from any text windows into any GUI program. > I can format floppies while running IE5.5, Outlook98, and OE5.5, with a > Modula-2 programming environment running and a copy of the CDC 6000 > emulator running the Chippewa Operating System. > > Under Windows 2000. On an 800MHz P-III w/256MB of RAM. Not a killer > machine. > > Windows sucks for anough real reasons that it's really not necessary > to perpetuate myths and half-truths.... We're talking about much older Windows than 2000 and much slower machine than a PIII-800. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 06:07:23 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Try MSNBC. I find their journalism a bit too yellow too. I tend to watch the BBC world news. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 06:36:26 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, William Donzelli wrote: > > The do indeed classify the S/390 as a mainframe...because, well, > > that's what it is. :-) > > Not any more - they are all "servers". xSeries, iSeries, pSeries, and > zSeries (the z's being the S/390 followups). No. Mainframes have been called servers since the word "server" came into fashion. The new marketing hype from IBM is the eServer xSeries, iSeries, pSeries and zSeries. If you look in the explanations on their website, it says that xSeries are intel servers, iSeries are AS/400 servers, pSeries is RS/6000 servers, and zSeries are mainframe servers. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 06:38:16 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > I have a pair of 9404's with terminals and networking hubs and cables. > > Are there any parts in them that may be used in other systems? > > It depends on what the parts are. There is at least some chance, anyway. > > Token ring is token ring (leaving out Apollos and at least as far as IEEE > 802.5 is concerned). SCSI devices are, for the most part, SCSI devices. If > you want to get out a soldering iron, I'm sure the memory chips could be > salvaged. How much work do you want to do? A lot of AS/400's use ESDI. Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 20 07:03:01 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <200204200407.AAA04429@conman.org> References: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 20, 2002 12:38:02 AM Message-ID: <3CC17515.5554.26F346D9@localhost> > > Still, what do you expect from a system of units where one of the base > > units -- by its very name -- is clearly 1000 times something else (I am > > thinking of the kilogram, of course) > I thought the gram was the base unit, which is one cubic centemeter of > water at 4 Celcius (when water is at its most dense). Naa - The due historical reasons the Kilogramm is defined as the mass of the kilogramm prototype. And when they defined the system, they wanted to have a small thing as basic unit, but here unable to get this done with low enough tollerance. So the prototype is a thousand times the unit (cuts tolerances by 1000, which is a good thing). Also the kilogramm is, AFAIR, the last of the basic units which still relies on a prototype and has no definition on some nature constant. The idea with the highest possibility of success would be to link mass over the Avogadro value to the number of atoms in one mol of a specific element (isotop). the only problem is counting the atoms :) If you can come up with a way to define a kilogramm by using fundamental constants, you'll be a scientific hero. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 20 07:03:01 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <126504044257.20020419235350@subatomix.com> References: Message-ID: <3CC17515.5949.26F346CA@localhost> > > > I would like to identify the book that was my first book on computers, > > > with which I learned BASIC on a diskless TRS-80 Model II in the fifth > > > grade. The > > Could you give us the YEAR, instead of your age? > Oops. 1988-1989. And it was the 4th grade. > > Sure that it was a model II? (That had vertical 8 inch drives) > Oops. It was a Model III, diskless, with 4K RAM. I always cornfuse the II > and III. Maybe it had Level II basic. Maybe I just don't know what I'm > talking about. Model II with 4 K ? I always belived the M3 was only availabe with 16/32/48/64 K (so 1-4 banks of 4116 chips). 4K wa only true for the Model 1 Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Apr 20 07:10:39 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 19, 2 09:19:10 am Message-ID: <3CC176DF.19713.26FA435D@localhost> From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date sent: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 00:38:02 +0100 (BST) Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > It is a derivated unit, as Coulomb, but you'r right, the > > > name is Degree Celsius (=B0C), and youre right, C is Coulomb. > > Coulombs aren't derived. > Unforutnately they are :-(. The SI base unit for electical quanitities is > the Ampere (A) for electric current. All other electrical units are > derived from that (together with the other base units). The Coulomb is > defined as an A*s > (and FWIW, the Ohm is the kg * m^2 / (A^2 * s^3), > the volt is the kg * m^2 / (A * s^3), erc) > IIRC, the ampere is defined by a totally impractical experiment > concerning the force between 2 infintely long, zero diameter parallel wires > carrying a current in a vacuum. Obviously the only way to do this > experiment is to calculate the force between 2 coils of real under the > suitable conditions as a function of the current, and then to actually > measure that force when the current-under-test is flowing). No, the definition is quite theoretical, but it includes the calculation of one of the magnetic constants (dont ask me which, school is a quite long time ago) which again can be measured - and when you know this constant all the rest is stable without building the gedankenexperiment in reality. > IMHO, the coulomb should have been taken as the base unit (say define 1 C > as the charge on 6.24...*10^18 electons. Charge (which is a property of > a particle) seems to be much more fundamental than current (which is a rate > of flow of charge). Well, the problem is still how you count the electrons ... A definition without a way to measure it is quite wothless. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 20 07:24:03 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Connect from floppies?? In-Reply-To: <3CC12B9D.1000707@internet1.net> from Chad Fernandez at "Apr 20, 2002 04:49:33 am" Message-ID: <200204201224.g3KCO3te005210@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Hello, > > > I'm trying to install Warp 3 Connect on my 9577 from floppies. I made > the floppies from the cd-rom, but when I try to install it, I don't get > the network options to choose. It's as if I didn't even have a network > card installed. I have a 3Com 3C529-TP > > Does it have to be installed by cd-rom to get network support? The > manual doesn't seem to mention floppies, only the cd-rom. > > Help!!! > > Chad Fernandez You probably need to build the MPTS floppies and TCP/IP floppies... It's doable but requires additional disks to be built. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 20 08:50:56 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> Try MSNBC. > >I find their journalism a bit too yellow too. I tend to watch the BBC >world news. In recent years, I've lost a lot of respect for journalists in general. They've forgotten that thier job is to report the facts, not create the news. Oh to have those like Morrow or Cronkite again.... Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dquebbeman at acm.org Sat Apr 20 09:32:49 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action Message-ID: <000b01c1e878$428c8730$2aefffcc@Shadow> > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Try MSNBC. > > I find their journalism a bit too yellow too. I tend to > watch the BBC world news. I used to prefer ITN World News, with Daljit Daliwahl, but lately, it's not being carried locally. And I can't seem to find the streaming version on their web site... -dq From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Apr 20 09:39:04 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:51 2005 Subject: Early Computer Inventors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020420103904.010a0748@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that blstuart@bellsouth.net may have mentioned these words: >In message , Sellam Ismai >l writes: >>How about calling it a Babbage? >That was my thought as well, with possible runners up of >the Zuse, the Aiken, the Eckert or the Mauchley. My vote is still with the Zuse, dunno about the Aiken, but Eckert & Mouchley were thieves - they were the Micro$hafts of early computer science - if you're looking for some Americans to nominate, go for Atanasoff or Berry - they had a working computer *long* before E & M. E & M *stole* most of their hard work and then patented it - which is why they are in the history books... but what they don't tell is that the patents were re-issued back to the rightful owners in 1974. [[ _Arguably_ the ABC (Atanasoff Berry Computer) was operational before Zuse's Z1, (October 1939), but the fact that Zuse was working alone without the backing of an educational institution makes him on equal footing as Atanasoff & Berry in my book... ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Apr 20 09:44:31 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC0EBB0.2030102@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420104214.00a05ca0@sokieserv.dhs.org> been there, done that, kinda sucks and looks ugly. i've begun getting more creative and started using some of the sanding and rounding features with my dremel and made one that has dual fan and a HDD LED on it for a SCSI drive i had sitting in a 486- though it is long gone now. 486 died and i had decided to donate it to a friend who liked to use explosives. first time i saw a 486 CPU fly over 20 feet =) -John At 01:01 AM 4/20/02, you wrote: >On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Temporarily, I've got a fan sitting on top of the cards and the power > > supply. It's cooled off a lot!! I need to poke a hole in the case an > > permanently install that fan. > >Cheapskate's Drive Fan Recipe: > >One 486-early-Pentium CPU fan w/HDD-style power input > >One 5.25" drive-bay cover > >4 2.5mm x 10mm woodscrews > >1 Dremel Tool or Flexshaft > > Cut a round hole in the bay cover, the diameter of the fan itself or >slightly smaller. > Drill mount holes to match the fan housing. > Slot the cover to accomodate the power leads - either in from the edge >or out from the fan opening. > Screw fan to cover, plug to spare power lead, clip bay cover into >place. If you're as anal as I am, grind screw points flush to the >plastic on the inside. > > Much cheaper & much quieter than the commercial bay coolers. If your >PSU sucks air into the case, orient the fan to blow out, or vice versa. > > > Doc ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Apr 20 09:52:02 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) (fwd) Message-ID: > > I think the most beautiful processor I've seen is CPU card of the > > Symbolics 3645. The wiring and chip layout are really nice. One thing that > > always impressed me about that machine is that the disk label is in ASCII > > text! Of course it has a 68000 with a decent amount of ROM space (the FEP) to > > boot from... > > What do you mean by "the disk label is in ASCII text"? Its been a long time (>10 years) but AFAICR I was able to add a new Saber drive by using the FEP, The disk label is just plain text in the first block that is interpreted... > > I've played with a Symbolics for maybe half an hour. It has a lot of cool > software, though it kept trying to connect to a ChaosNet server to download > all the docs, so there was a lot I couldn't find out. I haven't really > explored the essence of the software. 1/2 and hour with an incomplete system is not much of a demonstration... > > The design of both the software and the hardware strikes me as baroque > (typical MIT "just keep adding features" hacking). Also the system as a > whole is not necessarily "self-sustaining". A friend of mine is having > trouble with his Symbolics -- his disk has bad blocks in the LISP world -- > he doesn't have the "breath-of-life" tape that has to be created for each > individual disk -- there's no way for the FEP to change the bad block list > -- the software to create new "breath-of-life" tapes is not available. > If any of those problems were fixed things might be better, but in the > current situation there's no recourse (except to pay Symbolics). That's > what I mean by "not self-sustaining" I dont think that there was a whole lot there that was not needed. A tagged architecture 36 bit machine with paged virtual memory, ECC, capable of executing about 5 million Lisp instructions a second was not trivial to build in 1985... > > I've read the manuals for the Xerox environment but I've never used the > actual machine. The hardware/software is less baroque but still heavily > layered (three separate LISP environments running on top of PILOT on a > variety of machines with a variety of keyboard layouts). INTERLISP's > comment handling never seemed sensible to me and it has lots of cryptic > names and messages left over from the TTY days. The Xerox hardware is less "baroque" because is is not a "Lisp machine" it is a microcoded 16 bit processor with WCS. The magic is done with (very clever) microcode but it is _much_ slower than the 36xx > > > The Symbolics and the Xerox WS running Interlisp always seemed to be > > the most "alive" computers I've used, which I think has something to do with > > how much the command interpreter, shell, etc knows about things... > > And how interconnected they are. I would love to play wtih DEdit (or SEdit > which is the newer version) -- its generalization of "select, then act" > to multiple selections and its "one man's output is another man's input" > mentality would be fun. I don't know much about TEdit or the Grapher but > they seem to have cult followings. > > -- Derek > You can download a Interlisp/common lisp environment from PARC that will run under Linux (its actually an application (LFG)) but you can play with SEdit and Tedit) ... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Apr 20 09:56:42 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420104450.00a11ca0@sokieserv.dhs.org> i'm now in search of anything pertaining to the Bay Networks 16/4 BayStack Token Ring Hub with Fiber MDA RO/RI, 24port RJ45. Documentation, manuals, software (it does seem to have a DB9 "console" port on the back)? it is currently working well on my little network of 3 token ring machines (one P-III 850, one Athlon 750 and one P-II 350), where i get link, 16M, FRM, Mgt, etc. steady Green. One thing that bothers me though: WTF is NNM and DCM and why are they flashing Green? also, is there a way to disable the MDA module and why is it showing Snpx lit steady Green? there is no connection to it currently. the hub does, however, link up nicely to the 3Com LinkBuilder FMS TR 12 that i also have through cascade port 1 on the Bay unit and the internetworking port on the back of the 3com unit. main goal: to make the P-350 my main linux netowrk server with my own web hosting at some point and email hosting with dual or possibly quad token ring going out to the network and having a singular ethernet AMD PC-Net II (IBM badged) PCI for Ethernet going out to the router and out to the broadband cable modem. i even went out and found the nifty yellow ethernet cables (CAT5) that have soft rubber strain relief boots on them (really nice and professional looking and obtained free). =) -John Note: next goal is to toss narrow SCSI into the linux box (it is still partially built) and maybe have dual 9 gb or quad 4.x gb drives in it. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 20 10:03:08 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420104450.00a11ca0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <3CC1832C.1080305@texoma.net> Look at Nortel's site. They bought Bay a couple of years ago. John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > i'm now in search of anything pertaining to the Bay Networks 16/4 > BayStack Token Ring Hub with Fiber MDA RO/RI, 24port RJ45. > Documentation, manuals, software (it does seem to have a DB9 "console" > port on the back)? it is currently working well on my little network > of 3 token ring machines (one P-III 850, one Athlon 750 and one P-II > 350), where i get link, 16M, FRM, Mgt, etc. steady Green. One thing > that bothers me though: WTF is NNM and DCM and why are they flashing > Green? also, is there a way to disable the MDA module and why is it > showing Snpx lit steady Green? there is no connection to it currently. > the hub does, however, link up nicely to the 3Com LinkBuilder FMS TR > 12 that i also have through cascade port 1 on the Bay unit and the > internetworking port on the back of the 3com unit. main goal: to make > the P-350 my main linux netowrk server with my own web hosting at some > point and email hosting with dual or possibly quad token ring going > out to the network and having a singular ethernet AMD PC-Net II (IBM > badged) PCI for Ethernet going out to the router and out to the > broadband cable modem. i even went out and found the nifty yellow > ethernet cables (CAT5) that have soft rubber strain relief boots on > them (really nice and professional looking and obtained free). =) > -John > > Note: next goal is to toss narrow SCSI into the linux box (it is still > partially built) and maybe have dual 9 gb or quad 4.x gb drives in it. > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Apr 20 10:13:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Try MSNBC. > > I find their journalism a bit too yellow too. I tend to watch the BBC > world news. Maybe compared to the dryness of a bunch of Brits reporting on world affairs, but compared to other US "news" outlets, I find their reporting to be fair. I exclude from this statement all the stupid blowhards they have that shout their opinions at the top of their lungs because they have insecurities left over from childhood (i.e. Alan Keyes), but these are so called "opinion shows" so it's to be expected. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 20 10:22:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420104450.00a11ca0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <000e01c1e87f$33fb91a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's probably NOT a DB9! The 'B' means it's a shell the size of a DB25. The "little" connector with a shell the size of what's used on a VGA or EGA connector is an 'E' shell, so the serial port connector common on many PC's is a DE9. This matter's been beaten to death, so check the list archive for details. Remember, using comonly misapplied nomenclature does not help clear things up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boffemmyer IV" To: "Classic Comp" Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 8:56 AM Subject: in search of Bay Networks... > software (it does seem to have a DB9 "console" port on the back)? it is > -John > From liste at artware.qc.ca Sat Apr 20 10:48:35 2002 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... In-Reply-To: <3CC1832C.1080305@texoma.net> Message-ID: On 20-Apr-2002 James Rice wrote: > Look at Nortel's site. They bought Bay a couple of years ago. ??? Didn't 3COM buy Bay? Or did they then sell it over to Nortel? -Philip From lists at subatomix.com Sat Apr 20 11:05:59 2002 From: lists at subatomix.com (Jeffrey Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <3CC17515.5949.26F346CA@localhost> References: <3CC17515.5949.26F346CA@localhost> Message-ID: <87544372716.20020420110559@subatomix.com> On Saturday, April 20, 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > Oops. It was a Model III, diskless, with 4K RAM. I always cornfuse the > > II and III. Maybe it had Level II basic. Maybe I just don't know what > > I'm talking about. > > Model II with 4 K ? Yup. I spent lots of time with that machine, and I've always remembered that number. The RAM label said 4K. I am quite certain of it. -- Jeffrey Sharp The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. You may need to remove some bugs first. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 11:20:28 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area (William Donzelli) References: <15552.45486.905090.943012@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15553.38220.779618.237069@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, William Donzelli wrote: > > The do indeed classify the S/390 as a mainframe...because, well, > > that's what it is. :-) > > Not any more - they are all "servers". xSeries, iSeries, pSeries, and > zSeries (the z's being the S/390 followups). Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's pants. Regardless of what industry buzzwords the marketroids are trying to take advantage of...those machines implement the S/390 architecture, which is a mainframe architecture descended from mainframe architectures. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 11:35:45 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15553.38220.779618.237069@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > The do indeed classify the S/390 as a mainframe...because, well, > > > that's what it is. :-) > > > > Not any more - they are all "servers". xSeries, iSeries, pSeries, and > > zSeries (the z's being the S/390 followups). > > Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are > indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them > "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's > pants. That's a mighty big itch. > Regardless of what industry buzzwords the marketroids are trying to > take advantage of...those machines implement the S/390 architecture, > which is a mainframe architecture descended from mainframe > architectures. Actually, those machines don't implement ESA/390. They implement z/Arch. But z/Arch definitely evolved from ESA/390 R4. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 11:39:54 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Re: AS/400s in the Champaign area (William Donzelli) References: Message-ID: <15553.39386.990563.482960@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 19, William Donzelli wrote: > > FWIW the AS/400 is essentially the follow-on to the System/36, to the > > point of having a highly-evolved software environment allowing S/36 > > applications to run un-modified on AS/400. Supposedly there is some > > dotted-line relationship to S/38 as well, but I don't have any real > > information about that. > > The other way round, architecturally. AS/400 gained most from S/38 and > FS. The whole AS/400 family was designed to replace S/32, S/34, S/36, and > S/38. The AS/400 grew primarily out of the S/36 architecture but incorporated many architectural features of the S/38. It has a good deal of application compatibility with both the S/36 and the S/38. The S/38 (which came out before the S/36) is otherwise a fairly different machine from the S/32, S/34, and S/36. The lineage: System/3, 1969 System/32, 1975 System/34, 1977 System/38, 1978 System/36, 1983 AS/400 family, 1988 The last model of the System/36 line, the 5363, was "enhanced" (though I don't know how) and renamed "AS/Entry"...it seems to me that they followed the numbering scheme, but loosely. I don't have any hard information about this, but I'm guessing this is how they got to where they are now. I've put the possible "steps" through the naming system in brackets below. ... System/36 AS/Entry [AdvancedSystem/36] Advanced36 [AdvancedSystem/40] [AS/40] AS/400 -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 11:42:24 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15553.38220.779618.237069@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15553.39536.482780.237141@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 20, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are > > indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them > > "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's > > pants. > > That's a mighty big itch. Yes. > > Regardless of what industry buzzwords the marketroids are trying to > > take advantage of...those machines implement the S/390 architecture, > > which is a mainframe architecture descended from mainframe > > architectures. > > Actually, those machines don't implement ESA/390. They implement z/Arch. > But z/Arch definitely evolved from ESA/390 R4. My mistake...it was my impression that z/Architecture is very similar to that of ESA/390, more so than the other evolutionary steps in the S/360->S/390 family architectures. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 11:57:19 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15553.39536.482780.237141@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Regardless of what industry buzzwords the marketroids are trying to > > > take advantage of...those machines implement the S/390 architecture, > > > which is a mainframe architecture descended from mainframe > > > architectures. > > > > Actually, those machines don't implement ESA/390. They implement z/Arch. > > But z/Arch definitely evolved from ESA/390 R4. > > My mistake...it was my impression that z/Architecture is very similar > to that of ESA/390, more so than the other evolutionary steps in the > S/360->S/390 family architectures. 64-bit addressing, twice as many instruction formats. That's a pretty big change. The change from ESA/370 to ESA/390 wasn't that drastic. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 12:00:45 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15553.39536.482780.237141@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15553.40637.783396.243300@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 20, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > My mistake...it was my impression that z/Architecture is very similar > > to that of ESA/390, more so than the other evolutionary steps in the > > S/360->S/390 family architectures. > > 64-bit addressing, twice as many instruction formats. That's a pretty big > change. The change from ESA/370 to ESA/390 wasn't that drastic. Ok, I must've been thinking of something else. The original point stands, however, that these are mainframe architectures. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 20 12:01:16 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: OS/2 Warp 3 Connect from floppies?? References: <200204201224.g3KCO3te005210@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3CC19EDC.1030006@internet1.net> Bill Pechter wrote: > You probably need to build the MPTS floppies and TCP/IP floppies... > It's doable but requires additional disks to be built. > > Bill I didn't see that when I built the disks I have. Is there another "makedisk", or whatever it was called to build those floppies? Also, if I had them the installer doesn't ask for them. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dave at naffnet.org.uk Sat Apr 20 12:03:33 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... References: Message-ID: <3CC19F64.2D1333C0@naffnet.org.uk> liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > On 20-Apr-2002 James Rice wrote: > > Look at Nortel's site. They bought Bay a couple of years ago. > ??? > Didn't 3COM buy Bay? Or did they then sell it over to Nortel? > > -Philip > Nope, Nortel bought it straight out. If you cannot find any information on the web, try calling your local Nortel site and asking for the Technical Service Centre. Cheers, Dave. From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sat Apr 20 12:08:08 2002 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (lee courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020420170808.63293.qmail@web20805.mail.yahoo.com> If you're in the SF Bay area I'd stop by Wierd Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale where they always seem to have a pile of networking equipment from different manufaturers, including Bay. Lee Courtney --- liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 20-Apr-2002 James Rice wrote: > > Look at Nortel's site. They bought Bay a couple > of years ago. > ??? > Didn't 3COM buy Bay? Or did they then sell it over > to Nortel? > > -Philip > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 20 12:13:17 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... References: Message-ID: <3CC1A1AD.7090606@texoma.net> All of the Baystack stuff is listed as active products on www.nortelnetworks.com. Nortel spun off Netgear that Bay had aquired just before being swallowed by Nortel. Netgear was bought by Bay in 1997 or 98, Nortel bought Bay in late to mid 99 as I recall. Netgear was spun off in early 2000. I may be off a few months or a year. James liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: >On 20-Apr-2002 James Rice wrote: > >>Look at Nortel's site. They bought Bay a couple of years ago. >> >??? >Didn't 3COM buy Bay? Or did they then sell it over to Nortel? > >-Philip > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 20 13:38:10 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: from "Sridhar the POWERful" at Apr 19, 2 09:19:10 am <3CC176DF.19713.26FA435D@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC1B592.6D1CFADC@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans Franke wrote: > Well, the problem is still how you count the electrons ... > A definition without a way to measure it is quite wothless. Well they have been able to do that for a while. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 20 13:35:55 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC17515.5554.26F346D9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 2 02:03:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1154 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/dbd968c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 20 13:40:55 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC176DF.19713.26FA435D@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 20, 2 02:10:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1960 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020420/cef90231/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 20 14:43:15 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: Message-ID: <3CC1C4D3.29DE41AD@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > [1] If I want to name the unit of length that's 1/1000 of a metre I call > it a millimetre. But if I want one thousandth of the standard unit of > mass, I don't call it a millikilogram :-). > > Also the kilogramm is, AFAIR, the last of the basic units which > > still relies on a prototype and has no definition on some nature It does so! Just the basic unit of nature they picked was not a real basic unit - it was the earth! The meter was something like 1/10,000,000 the Earth's curumfrence going thru Paris and the North and South poles. The Kilogram's (derived from the meter ) volume was filled with water and thus you got a unit weight. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 14:58:03 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15553.40637.783396.243300@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > My mistake...it was my impression that z/Architecture is very similar > > > to that of ESA/390, more so than the other evolutionary steps in the > > > S/360->S/390 family architectures. > > > > 64-bit addressing, twice as many instruction formats. That's a pretty big > > change. The change from ESA/370 to ESA/390 wasn't that drastic. > > Ok, I must've been thinking of something else. The original point > stands, however, that these are mainframe architectures. Definitely. Peace... Sridhar From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 20 15:21:34 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: <10204200950.ZM27092@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 19, 20:36, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins > > > > out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on > > > > disk and tape drives. We just stuck the pins in the appropriate > > > > sockets and left it at that! Being careful not to pull on the > > > > wire, of course. > > > > > > Couldn't you get a strip of plastic and drill some suitable (stepped) > > > holes in it to hold the pins? OK, it wouldn't lock to the socket, and > it > > > would probably fit either way up, but at least the pins would be kept > in > > > the right sequence. > > > Another possibility, depending on the shape of the receptacle recess, > > might be to encapsulate the pins(?) with RTV. Same caveats as Tony > > cited above. > > Yet another revolutionary idea might be to buy a few of the correct > housings :-) They're made by AMP, by the way, not Molex. They're readily > avaialble from any AMP supplier, and very cheap. Oops! I had somehow inferred from earlier correspondence that they were unavailable. - don > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 20 15:31:30 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > >> Try MSNBC. > > > >I find their journalism a bit too yellow too. I tend to watch the BBC > >world news. > > In recent years, I've lost a lot of respect for journalists > in general. They've forgotten that thier job is to report the facts, > not create the news. Oh to have those like Morrow or Cronkite > again.... On the other hand, you must certainly credit Peter Jennings for his marathon performance on 9/11/01. Rather impressive, I thought. - don > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 20 15:42:14 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: <87544372716.20020420110559@subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > On Saturday, April 20, 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > Oops. It was a Model III, diskless, with 4K RAM. I always cornfuse the > > > II and III. Maybe it had Level II basic. Maybe I just don't know what > > > I'm talking about. > > > > Model II with 4 K ? > > Yup. I spent lots of time with that machine, and I've always remembered that > number. The RAM label said 4K. I am quite certain of it. Original Color Computer 4K? - don > -- > Jeffrey Sharp > > The email address lists@subatomix.com is for mailing list traffic. Please > send off-list mail to roach jay ess ess at wasp subatomix beetle dot com. > You may need to remove some bugs first. > > From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Apr 20 16:01:13 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: in search of Bay Networks... In-Reply-To: <3CC1A1AD.7090606@texoma.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020420165818.00a26870@sokieserv.dhs.org> grrr, since when does someone have to have a damned pay per year service contract to f---ing download basic client software, let alone firmware upgrades to correct errors, etc. on a bay networks/nortel device? i see now why nortel has not been doing so well in the industry lately. would anyone know an easier way to obtain the DCM software and the latest software for a BayStack 50x hub with DCM and fiber MDA for RI/RO? -John At 01:13 PM 4/20/02, you wrote: >All of the Baystack stuff is listed as active products on >www.nortelnetworks.com. Nortel spun off Netgear that Bay had aquired >just before being swallowed by Nortel. Netgear was bought by Bay in 1997 >or 98, Nortel bought Bay in late to mid 99 as I recall. Netgear was spun >off in early 2000. I may be off a few months or a year. > >James > >liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > >>On 20-Apr-2002 James Rice wrote: >> >>>Look at Nortel's site. They bought Bay a couple of years ago. >>??? >>Didn't 3COM buy Bay? Or did they then sell it over to Nortel? >> >>-Philip >> > > ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Apr 20 16:28:35 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Dayna EtherPrint-T and AppleShare Message-ID: <200204202128.OAA25256@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Will a Dayna EtherPrint-T work for connecting, say, a LocalTalk Mac into an EtherTalk network, or does it only work for printers? In other words, is it a true LocalTalk-to-EtherTalk bridge? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Burglar alarms: For the man who has everything! ---------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 20 16:26:56 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > > > Oops. It was a Model III, diskless, with 4K RAM. I always cornfuse the > > > > II and III. Maybe it had Level II basic. Maybe I just don't know what > > > > I'm talking about. > > > Model II with 4 K ? > > Yup. I spent lots of time with that machine, and I've always remembered that > > number. The RAM label said 4K. I am quite certain of it. > Original Color Computer 4K? The model 1 (aka "TRS-80") was available with 4K. When converting to the "Level II [Microsoft] BASIC", it was usually upgraded to 16K. BUT,... it WAS possible, with some difficulty, to get them to do the ROM upgrade without the RAM expansion. The naming of "Level II BASIC" often led to confusion, and erroneous references to the machine as being "model 2" I don't know whether the model 3 was available with 4K. I think that it was. I am confident that the model 2 (8" "business" computer) was never available with 4K. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 20 15:28:21 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200204202028.g3KKSL303396@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Apr, cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > A quick question was ULTRIX ever avalible for the uVAX 3100/80? No. > (there seems to be a version of linux but it seems > to be quite imature.) .... and it ever will be. > OpenBSD is great, still it doesn't have all that I want, but has a lot > more than NetBSD. This is not a bug, it is a feature. ;-) NetBSD is minimalistic and this is one reason why I like it. You just add what you need via pkgsrc and you get a system that has exactely what you want, and nothing more. It is most bloat less. If you wane try NetBSD again, please use the ELF snapshot of -current. Many improvements, but it needs some more testers... -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 20 15:12:03 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) In-Reply-To: <20020419202123.GC5805@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <200204202012.g3KKC4C03388@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Apr, Alexander Schreiber wrote: [PeeCee] > But put some usable OS (i.e. one of the free UNIX systems) on it > and you have a usable system. NACK. At work I have a P III 650, 256MB RAM, 30GB HDD, Linux 2.4. During disk IO this *(#%$!@%*& feels slower than a MV III with 4.3BSD-Tahoe. Last October I purchased an Alpha for ~500 EUR. This is affordable. Fife jears old, 500MHz EV56 CPU, 192 MB RAM (meanwhile 640MB), 4GB HDD (SCSI!), Tru64 UNIX. Runns circles around a much newer, "better, bigger, faster" PeeCee when it has to do IO. Not to talk about the absence of the typical PeeCee idiosyncrasys and the much higher hardware quality. It "Just Runs Forever" (C) (R) (TM). Only my 0.01 EUR. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 17:09:04 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <3CC1C4D3.29DE41AD@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > [1] If I want to name the unit of length that's 1/1000 of a metre I call > > it a millimetre. But if I want one thousandth of the standard unit of > > mass, I don't call it a millikilogram :-). > > > > Also the kilogramm is, AFAIR, the last of the basic units which > > > still relies on a prototype and has no definition on some nature > > It does so! Just the basic unit of nature they picked was not a real > basic unit - it was the earth! The meter was something like 1/10,000,000 > the Earth's curumfrence going thru Paris and the North and South poles. > The Kilogram's (derived from the meter ) volume was filled with water > and thus you got a unit weight. Ahem. Kilograms don't measure weight. Newtons measure weight. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 17:30:04 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Re: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <3CC1C4D3.29DE41AD@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15553.60396.886092.296734@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 20, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > It does so! Just the basic unit of nature they picked was not a real > > basic unit - it was the earth! The meter was something like 1/10,000,000 > > the Earth's curumfrence going thru Paris and the North and South poles. > > The Kilogram's (derived from the meter ) volume was filled with water > > and thus you got a unit weight. > > > Ahem. Kilograms don't measure weight. Newtons measure weight. > Oh MAN. We could shove charcoal briquets up his butt and make diamonds. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Apr 20 17:45:15 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Guys take a look at this qbus cpu board on Ebay :-) References: Message-ID: <3CC1EF7B.4010809@dragonsweb.org> Doc wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >>The trick is to run a good OS, and carefully craft a system to run it using >>good parts. > > > Absolutely. Plus, IMHO, 2 other major players in PC instability. > Fully half the constant-crash problems I see on home-built or local-shop > PCs are due to improper cooling and/or a cheap low-Watt PSU. > I worked on an E-Machine a couple of weeks ago that was delivered with > a K6/2 450 CPU and a $10 HS/fan combo, with no thermal paste at all. A > 7200rpm ATA100 drive, CD-RW, Jazz drive, and 90W PSU. The owner told > me "It crashes a lot." Duh.... > I run at least a 300W PSU and lots o' fans on anything I want stable. > It's louder, more expensive, and probably excessive. It gives me warm & > fuzzies. > > Doc > > Beats me why some heat sink mfrs. put that crappy adhesive/gum on the sweet spot. I recently built a dual Athlon 1600MP+ Thunder K7 server using an expensive, board-specific 460W supply and Cooler Master DP5-6I11A's (too tight a fit for anything bigger). As an experiment, using the hypothesis that that stuff was supposed to be some kind of heat-sinking silicone, I installed the coolers as they were. Needless to say, until I scraped that pink junk off and put a layer of heat sink compound on the dies, the system would crash once ambient air hit 80 F. or so. Wouldn't even make it through an fsck at boot. The bios hardware monitor appears way off, (52-3 C processor temp at startup) and I haven't installed lmsensors, so I don't know exactly how hot the processors were getting. 93 F today though and it's running fine. No need to tell me I need A/C :-) These women will want one for the house then. Unfortunately they won't want to pay for the juice ($100+/mo) :-( jbdigriz From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 20 18:04:14 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 book identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The model 1 (aka "TRS-80") was available with 4K. When converting to the >"Level II [Microsoft] BASIC", it was usually upgraded to 16K. BUT,... it >WAS possible, with some difficulty, to get them to do the ROM upgrade >without the RAM expansion. Actually the 4k Level 2 machine was a legitimate model...it carried Tandy catalog# 26-1004, which was without the keypad. The 16k Level 2 machine was available both with (catalog# 26-1006) and without (catalog# 26-1006-1) the numeric keypad. I don't believe I've seen Model I's with the RAM capacity 'buttons' like the Model III has though. One of my Model I's, without the keypad, carries catalog# 26-1004D and has quite a few modifications done to it. My other's are a catalog# 26-1006-1 (no keypad) and 26-1006 (with keypad). Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 18:05:28 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <15553.60396.886092.296734@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > It does so! Just the basic unit of nature they picked was not a real > > > basic unit - it was the earth! The meter was something like 1/10,000,000 > > > the Earth's curumfrence going thru Paris and the North and South poles. > > > The Kilogram's (derived from the meter ) volume was filled with water > > > and thus you got a unit weight. > > > > > > Ahem. Kilograms don't measure weight. Newtons measure weight. > > > > Oh MAN. We could shove charcoal briquets up his butt and make > diamonds. ;) Let's leave your homoerotic fantasies out of this, Dave. Peace... Sridhar From meltie at myrealbox.com Sat Apr 20 18:15:45 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1019344549.2442.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> > Ahem. Kilograms don't measure weight. Newtons measure weight. I was under the impression Newtons were for mass, and kilograms were for weight on Earth factoring in the acceleration due to gravity... Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Apr 20 18:23:15 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: 20mA serial cable connector In-Reply-To: References: <10204200950.ZM27092@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020420182315.00a07240@ubanproductions.com> At 01:21 PM 4/20/02 -0700, you wrote: > > >On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On Apr 19, 20:36, Don Maslin wrote: >> >> > On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > > > I've kludged together cables for a PDP-11/34 by using the pins >> > > > out of those 4-pin Molex connectors that are normally used on >> > > > disk and tape drives. We just stuck the pins in the appropriate >> > > > sockets and left it at that! Being careful not to pull on the >> > > > wire, of course. >> > > >> > > Couldn't you get a strip of plastic and drill some suitable (stepped) >> > > holes in it to hold the pins? OK, it wouldn't lock to the socket, and >> it >> > > would probably fit either way up, but at least the pins would be kept >> in >> > > the right sequence. >> >> > Another possibility, depending on the shape of the receptacle recess, >> > might be to encapsulate the pins(?) with RTV. Same caveats as Tony >> > cited above. >> >> Yet another revolutionary idea might be to buy a few of the correct >> housings :-) They're made by AMP, by the way, not Molex. They're readily >> avaialble from any AMP supplier, and very cheap. > >Oops! I had somehow inferred from earlier correspondence that they were >unavailable. There was no inference necessary. I posted the response from Tyco/AMP which clearly states that they stopped making them back in 1997 and they are no longer available or in stock. --tom From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 18:30:52 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: Re: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15553.60396.886092.296734@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15553.64045.3573.177133@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 20, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > It does so! Just the basic unit of nature they picked was not a real > > > > basic unit - it was the earth! The meter was something like 1/10,000,000 > > > > the Earth's curumfrence going thru Paris and the North and South poles. > > > > The Kilogram's (derived from the meter ) volume was filled with water > > > > and thus you got a unit weight. > > > > > > > > > Ahem. Kilograms don't measure weight. Newtons measure weight. > > > > > > > Oh MAN. We could shove charcoal briquets up his butt and make > > diamonds. ;) > > Let's leave your homoerotic fantasies out of this, Dave. Freak. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 20 19:29:59 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <1019344549.2442.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: On 21 Apr 2002, Alex White wrote: > > Ahem. Kilograms don't measure weight. Newtons measure weight. > I was under the impression Newtons were for mass, and kilograms were for > weight on Earth factoring in the acceleration due to gravity... It's the other way around. A Newton is a KgM/s^2. Peace... Sridhar From rdd at rddavis.org Sat Apr 20 20:20:54 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020421012053.GA16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Peter C. Wallace, from writings of Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 07:32:59PM -0700: [quoting Tony Duell] > > [2] THe most beautiful processor I've seen? The HP9100 one, of course. > I think the most beautiful processor I've seen is CPU card of the > Symbolics 3645. The wiring and chip layout are really nice. One thing that I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Tony was most likely talking about the beauty of the engineering of the actual circuitry, how the CPU (not a board containing a microprocessor, but a board filled with the circuitry that makes up a CPU from many different ICs - a true CPU board) was designed, as opposed to the superficial aspect of a circuit board's appearance. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at rddavis.org Sat Apr 20 20:53:20 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 01:04:18PM -0500: [biz'droids] > Indeed I would tell them if they would listen to me. As it is, I have Just talk louder and be more persistent; they'll reach a point where they'll either listen or fire you; it the later, no great loss since it doesn't sound like they're worth working for. > agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that until they make > more sane rules. Why? > In other words, when I took their job, I gave them > my word. You gave them your word that you'd act like a good little obedient dimwit? Why would anyone promise to do that? I suggest that you run emacs and invoke doctor ("M-x doctor") to get some help. ;-) > I don't believe I can count on them to fix these problems > on my account. After all, they don't impair my work -- all of our > clients use this junk too. (Sad, but what can you do about it?) One can always refuse to work with that Micro$oft rubbish. Perhaps you could educate your employer's clients; tell them all about the big mistakes that they're making by wanting to use that Micro$oft virusware which is broken, and otherwise annoying, by design. Don't mince words, tell it like it is, and tell them that no reasonably intelligent computer hacker would work with that rubbish unless it was as part of a project to change over to a UNIX system, or VMS, or even CP/M... that is, changing over to a system that doesn't destroy data and do other peculiar things with files. Ask them why they like operating systems that molest data... someone needs to make an "Eddy Electron" like film, that's Monty Pythonish, called "Pfe$ter, the Micro $oft Mole$ter," showing him doing strange things with bits of data as they flow through the computer. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 20 21:07:40 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ... and if you're dumb enough to believe that, you'll get what you deserve. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 01:04:18PM -0500: > [biz'droids] > > Indeed I would tell them if they would listen to me. As it is, I have > > Just talk louder and be more persistent; they'll reach a point where > they'll either listen or fire you; it the later, no great loss since > it doesn't sound like they're worth working for. > > > agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that until they make > > more sane rules. > > Why? > > > In other words, when I took their job, I gave them > > my word. > > You gave them your word that you'd act like a good little obedient > dimwit? Why would anyone promise to do that? I suggest that you > run emacs and invoke doctor ("M-x doctor") to get some help. ;-) > > > I don't believe I can count on them to fix these problems > > on my account. After all, they don't impair my work -- all of our > > clients use this junk too. (Sad, but what can you do about it?) > > One can always refuse to work with that Micro$oft rubbish. Perhaps you > could educate your employer's clients; tell them all about the big > mistakes that they're making by wanting to use that Micro$oft > virusware which is broken, and otherwise annoying, by design. Don't > mince words, tell it like it is, and tell them that no reasonably > intelligent computer hacker would work with that rubbish unless it was > as part of a project to change over to a UNIX system, or VMS, or even > CP/M... that is, changing over to a system that doesn't destroy data > and do other peculiar things with files. Ask them why they like > operating systems that molest data... someone needs to make an "Eddy > Electron" like film, that's Monty Pythonish, called "Pfe$ter, the > Micro $oft Mole$ter," showing him doing strange things with bits of > data as they flow through the computer. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From mythtech at mac.com Sat Apr 20 21:20:26 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Dayna EtherPrint-T and AppleShare Message-ID: <200204210220.g3L2KVQ24408@ns2.ezwind.net> >Will a Dayna EtherPrint-T work for connecting, say, a LocalTalk Mac into an >EtherTalk network, or does it only work for printers? In other words, is it >a true LocalTalk-to-EtherTalk bridge? I think it will work as a true LocalTalk to Ethernet bridge. However, you may need to change a dip switch on it. IIRC, the Dayna has a couple of switches on the back that tell it what localtalk address range to look at, one direction is low addresses (CPUs) the other is high addresses (CPUs or Printers). If you check your AppleTalk control panel, you can see what your current AppleTalk address is (1-255, the break in the Dayna I think was at the 128 point, splitting the addresses in half). Many Macs auto assign into the lower range, so you might have to flip the switch to see it. Of course, I could be thinking either of an older version of the box, or of the wrong box, so you might want to double check (I think there is still tech info on Dayna products off Intel's web site. If you are looking to buy one, and want to know for sure, let me know... I have a Dayna box at work that I can hook up and test. I have had it sitting on a shelf since I got it, I have never used it since I have an Asante one that is half the size. (Don't know if it is the EtherPrint-T... actually, I think it is not, as I think it only has AUI and BNC connectors on it... but I am fairly sure it carries the EtherPrint name, so hopefully the only difference is the RJ-45 connector) -chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 21:22:11 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hmm...I sense some Microsoftism on the list... -Dave On April 20, Richard Erlacher wrote: > ... and if you're dumb enough to believe that, you'll get what you deserve. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. D. Davis" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > Quothe Christopher Smith, from writings of Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at > 01:04:18PM -0500: > > [biz'droids] > > > Indeed I would tell them if they would listen to me. As it is, I have > > > > Just talk louder and be more persistent; they'll reach a point where > > they'll either listen or fire you; it the later, no great loss since > > it doesn't sound like they're worth working for. > > > > > agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that until they make > > > more sane rules. > > > > Why? > > > > > In other words, when I took their job, I gave them > > > my word. > > > > You gave them your word that you'd act like a good little obedient > > dimwit? Why would anyone promise to do that? I suggest that you > > run emacs and invoke doctor ("M-x doctor") to get some help. ;-) > > > > > I don't believe I can count on them to fix these problems > > > on my account. After all, they don't impair my work -- all of our > > > clients use this junk too. (Sad, but what can you do about it?) > > > > One can always refuse to work with that Micro$oft rubbish. Perhaps you > > could educate your employer's clients; tell them all about the big > > mistakes that they're making by wanting to use that Micro$oft > > virusware which is broken, and otherwise annoying, by design. Don't > > mince words, tell it like it is, and tell them that no reasonably > > intelligent computer hacker would work with that rubbish unless it was > > as part of a project to change over to a UNIX system, or VMS, or even > > CP/M... that is, changing over to a system that doesn't destroy data > > and do other peculiar things with files. Ask them why they like > > operating systems that molest data... someone needs to make an "Eddy > > Electron" like film, that's Monty Pythonish, called "Pfe$ter, the > > Micro $oft Mole$ter," showing him doing strange things with bits of > > data as they flow through the computer. > > > > -- > > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other > animals: > > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify > such > > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > > > > > -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sat Apr 20 21:31:43 2002 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba Strata XXe Power Supply Help Needed Message-ID: We use a Strata XXe phone system in our house, and after working just fine for many months, it suddenly went completely dead. No phones, no lights, no power light - nothing. We have checked the power supply, and none of the 4 breakers or 5 glass fuses seem to be blown. There was a diode near a bank of large capacitors which appeared to be shorted - it or something near it had gotten hot enough to blacken the PC board a bit. Replaced said diode with no change in status. AC is present on the primary and secondary of the line transformer, but that's about it. Primary bridge rectifier is fine. Anyone (Sellam, maybe?) have a schematic for the HPSU-9120 power supply (or a cheap source for a replacement)? We purchased a downloadable PDF of the installer's manual some time ago, but it doesn't have schematics. It indicates that you should try swapping out power supplies and/or checking the output voltages of the supply and replace it if they are incorrect. So much for that... Suggestions? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Apr 20 18:39:18 2002 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Rainbows and NEC V20 upgrades. In-Reply-To: <200204111635.g3BGZ1509578@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Rainbow owners, I did get a request for the mods to make a Rainbow run with an NEC V20. Info below is from a reprint from the Rainbow News; unfortunately I don't have the date or the original issue, only the reprint. The article does carry the notation, Copyright (c) 1986 by Carl Houseman, all rights reserved, which means I'm probably about to get myself into potential legal trouble here. Carl, contact me if you are listening, I'll try to work out something you are happy with. Paraphrased heavily, the reprint says there is a 5% speed improvement overall, with up to 33% improvement (max.) for routines using the "fast video" firmware options. GW-Basic has a problem with displaying characters in the medium resolution graphics screen, and a hard disk diagnostic (test #4, seek time) doesn't work. There is also a set of problems with booting, but these are supposed to be fixed by the below modifications to the boot EPROM (though the article includes the expected YMMV-and-your-machine-may-explode kind of disclaimers). The EPROM is, for a Rainbow 100B or 100+, a 27128 PROM. If you install a V20, that EPROM (located between the connectors for the hard disk option) should be duplicated with the following changes: Location Data -------- ---- 072F 64 08E6 E8 08E7 17 08E8 36 08E9 90 0B36 20 3F00 51 3F01 B9 3F02 04 3F03 00 3F04 D4 3F05 0A 3F06 E2 3F07 FC 3F08 59 3F09 C3 3FFE EC 3FFF B2 For a PC100A, the Hard disk problem is irrelevant, the EPROM is a 2764, and the change list is: Location Data -------- ---- 043F 64 067D 20 1FFE 2B 1FFF 70 Let me know if you try it; I have not. Good luck! - Mark From fernande at internet1.net Sun Apr 21 01:34:30 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:52 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed Message-ID: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM or 3Com, any suggestions?? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Apr 21 01:45:18 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC17515.5554.26F346D9@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421164305.02891e78@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 07:35 PM 20/04/2002 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >That does _NOT_ explain why the base unit is called the kilogram (it's >the name I am objecting to, and the way that multiples/submultiples are >named [1]). My understanding for using the Kg rather than g is that it cuts down on the number of zeros needed. Most real world things we weigh are a more Kg like than g. For example, a VAX-8800 might weigh 400Kg, which is 400,000g (there's a good chance of losing one of those zeros). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 03:52:36 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought > I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe > something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM > or 3Com, any suggestions?? A set of cheap auto-sensing 10/100 switches is plenty for most home networks. I have a $2500 managed Netelligent 8-port switch in the closet, unplugged. The main switch for my network is a $70 NetGear.... It's _quieter_. Under VERY heavy load the Compaq outperforms the NetGear, but only then. If I have an unruly NIC or host, the management features are nice, but the real solution to that is still to replace the NIC or reconfigure the host. I can't justify the increased power requirements and noise of the Netelligent unit. If it hadn't been cheaper than the NetGear, I wouldn't have it at all. The extra $20 or so for a switch over a hub is well worth it, though. Doc From rhb57 at vol.com Sun Apr 21 05:03:56 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes it is since a hub will do 10/100, switch with full duplex can effectively get the system to 20/200. I have 2 8 port Skylink 8 port switches that cost me $40 each that are just so nice, even (or should I say especially) during heavy load periods. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Doc => Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 3:53 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: Network Hub selection help needed => => => On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: => => > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I => > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks => > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. => > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. => I thought => > I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe => > something commercial grade, However. I thought about => something from IBM => > or 3Com, any suggestions?? => => A set of cheap auto-sensing 10/100 switches is plenty for most home => networks. I have a $2500 managed Netelligent 8-port switch in the => closet, unplugged. The main switch for my network is a $70 NetGear.... => It's _quieter_. Under VERY heavy load the Compaq outperforms the => NetGear, but only then. If I have an unruly NIC or host, the management => features are nice, but the real solution to that is still to replace the => NIC or reconfigure the host. I can't justify the increased power => requirements and noise of the Netelligent unit. If it hadn't been => cheaper than the NetGear, I wouldn't have it at all. => => The extra $20 or so for a switch over a hub is well worth it, though. => => Doc => => From rhb57 at vol.com Sun Apr 21 05:07:14 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: Search for the name "Skylink" and "switch" (you may have to include description as well as title). I have 2 of these 10/100 switches (as opposed to a hub) that absolutely fly - cost me about $40 each (new) 6 months ago. I even have print servers and printers with internal NICs that are 10baseT and they don't lag at all. Much is since a switch will full duplex where a hub goes half duplex. A switch is less prone to collision and can effectively give you 20/200. All that I have on mine ncluding a PowerMac the unmanaged switch has been fine, and easy to use. I might have 2 to sell for what I paid for them. They usually end around $55 each plus shipping, they are that popular. I'm considering getting a 16 port version just to consolidate them. My present set of 2 hardly used 8 port switches (in the box) would be available then. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez => Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:35 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Network Hub selection help needed => => => I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I => need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks => yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. => It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought => I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe => something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM => or 3Com, any suggestions?? => => Chad Fernandez => Michigan, USA => => From whdawson at localisps.net Sun Apr 21 05:45:18 2002 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Prime PT250 Terminal, NIB VT keyboards at Yahoo! Auctions Message-ID: Just happened to notice this: Prime PT250 Terminal, Use with UNIX systems, Keyboard Included Clean and Works Some Burn in.. No bids yet. Opening bid of $4.99, buy it price of $14.99 http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/64250839?aucview=0x30 2 LK250-AA keyboard NIB: http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/64903339?aucview=0x10 http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/64234817?aucview=0x30 Appears to be some Apple IIgs's and Mac Pizza Boxes in this one, though the shipping's kind of steep. FCFS gets pick. http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/63282847?aucview=0x30 Bill From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Apr 21 06:05:00 2002 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Info wanted- North Valley Designs SPGM-100 Universal Programmer Message-ID: <099501c1e924$7be3b6a0$0100a8c0@athlon> Subject line sez all- still looking...... Dave Brown Christchurch NZ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 21 06:53:09 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Network Hub selection help needed" (Apr 21, 2:34) References: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10204211253.ZM28525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21, 2:34, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought > I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe > something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM > or 3Com, any suggestions?? What do you mean by "commercial grade"? The difference between upmarket devices and small SOHO devices is mostly that the ones used in larger commercial networks are managed devices. That means you can configure them remotely (with SNMP or a web interface), get statistics from them, etc. You really want a switch rather than a hub. Not many people are making hubs (repeaters) these days, even at the low end of the market. A switch will ultimately give better throughput, especially in a peer-to-peer network. Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of money, you want to protect your investment by including 100baseT capability even if you don't need it right now. If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most of the second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother looking for IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Apr 21 08:56:10 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <10204211253.ZM28525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> <10204211253.ZM28525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of >money, you want to protect your investment by including 100baseT capability >even if you don't need it right now. > >If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most of the >second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother looking for >IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And >Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. I use a Netgear DS108 dual-speed, 8port hub and really like it. It's small and does it's job well. My only complaint with it is that it doesn't pick up on some 10baseT cards, such as an Asente PDS NIC that is in my Color Classic. My other Mac's, NeXTs, and various other machines work fine with it though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 09:04:22 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed References: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002301c1e93d$7087a820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are lots of reasons not to do this, but if low cost and neatness of wiring is of any interest to you, don't forget about 10Base2 (coax) as a medium. Few applications really require the 100baseTX, though there's no reason not to use that, since it's the current default. If you use COAX, however, there's no need for a hub, which means that there will be less cabling, etc. While the 10/100 NIC's cost under $20, the typical (second-hand) 10Base2 NIC costs $2. There's only one coax, and it reaches from one computer at one end of the line to the last at the other end. It matters not whether you use a client/server or peer-to-peer network with COAX, since the fewer than 2 dozen computers will all share the same segment. I had my computers set up this way for years, until I thought I'd get noticeably better performance with 100BaseTX. I didn't get noticeably better performance, though there was a significant measurable difference. Back then, I had about 8 stations on the LAN, while I now use only 5. I intended to use the higher speed because I wanted to write CD's over the LAN, but that seldom worked out in spite of the higher performance. Another motivator was the need to run backups over the LAN. With the standard ethernet, it took nearly a whole 24 hours to do the daily full backup, while it took about 1/3 that time over the fast ethernet. Aside from that, the performance of the standard ethernet was quite adequate. Without a hub, there's no one place to which all the cables have to be routed, so there's less congestion, and less wire. I still use 10BaseT and coax to attach a couple of printers and the occasionally used *nix and DOS-only hardware. I have physically and economically small hubs (NetGear, which was cheap at the time and Thomas Conrad, which was left over from setting up the ISP) though the older (TC) hub was more costly and much bigger. It's just another option with low entry cost. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:34 AM Subject: Network Hub selection help needed > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought > I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe > something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM > or 3Com, any suggestions?? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 21 09:03:33 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I > thought I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. > Maybe something commercial grade, However. I thought about something > from IBM or 3Com, any suggestions?? First of all, don't get a hub. Get a switch. And get one with a FDDI uplink. It'll allow for expansion later. Cisco makes good ones. Peace... Sridhar From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun Apr 21 09:09:08 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <10204211253.ZM28525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Chad Fernandez <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421095701.00a1c570@sokieserv.dhs.org> I'd have to agree with Pete. It just doesn't make sense to get and use a networking device that can potentially cripple your activities later on. That's why I have an RP114 router from NetGear with 4 switched 10/100 duplex ports in it. The only hubs I have are for Token Ring and I am considering replacing them as well. I have a Bay Networks BayStack 504 24 port Token Ring hub with Fiber M.D.A., D.C.M. and N.M.M. - making it almost as good as a managed switch. ...And, because I am a paranoid S.O.B., I have a 3Com LinkBuilder FMS TR 12 (3C510510)- 12 port Active Token Ring hub as backup. Needless to say, it may be a _little_ overkill for a 3 machine network environment, but hey, I can transfer gigs of data all day safely. =) -John At 07:53 AM 4/21/02, you wrote: >On Apr 21, 2:34, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I > > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks > > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. > > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought > > I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe > > something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM > > or 3Com, any suggestions?? > >What do you mean by "commercial grade"? The difference between upmarket >devices and small SOHO devices is mostly that the ones used in larger >commercial networks are managed devices. That means you can configure them >remotely (with SNMP or a web interface), get statistics from them, etc. > >You really want a switch rather than a hub. Not many people are making >hubs (repeaters) these days, even at the low end of the market. A switch >will ultimately give better throughput, especially in a peer-to-peer >network. > >Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of >money, you want to protect your investment by including 100baseT capability >even if you don't need it right now. > >If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most of the >second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother looking for >IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And >Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 20 23:07:40 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? In-Reply-To: <3BDD57A4.65C27060@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: The US government is considering using MS Passport for a national online ID system...more scary stuff... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134438173_passport18.html Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga 3000, Cyberstorm MkII 060/50, GVP Spectrum, Xsurf ethernet, Amiga OS 3.9, 4GB Quantum Fireball, HD floppy, 36MB FastRAM http://www.cchaven.com From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Sun Apr 21 09:22:09 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction Action In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020421102209.00fc51a8@pop1.epm.net.co> At 07:07 AM 4/20/02 -0400, Sridhar wrote: >On Fri, 19 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> Try MSNBC. >I find their journalism a bit too yellow too. I tend to watch the BBC >world news. I find NPR to be the only sort of OK source of news in the U.S. They're every bit as imprecise as cnn and msnbc, but at least they try to be balanced. BBC's world service is much better. Deutsche Welle is good too. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Apr 21 10:15:54 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Richard Erlacher, spreader of pro-Microsoft propaganda, from his writings of Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:07:40PM -0600: > ... and if you're dumb enough to believe that, you'll get what you deserve. Au contraire. Micro$oft windoze users get what they deserve. To bring this back on-topic: in the years prior to the existence of Micro$oft and it's viruses pretending to be operating systems, can anyone think of any vintage operating system(s) that was (were) known for being poorly designed, annoying to use, and dangerous to data, which was (were) regarded with the same disdain as Micro$oft windows, yet still had loyal lusers who apparently didn't know any better than not to use it (them)? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 10:08:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed References: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000d01c1e946$66102080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One other thing ... It's easy to get "wrapped around the axle" with details about what works better than what, etc. Fact is ... the purpose of a network is to make multiple computers appear to you, the sum of all the end-users, since it's YOUR home computing facility, as one useful tool. I've seen more than one guy move from three boxes to each of which he could type a command and have a response in a couple of seconds, to a networked environment where he could sit at one station and accomplish the same thing, but not without a minute or two of typing. Some guys see this as an improvement. For me, the purpose of networking has been to make information stored on several dissimilar systems available to all of them with a minimum of hassle. If you have to generate manual routes to move files from one machine to another, it's a waste of effort setting the whole thing up. If that's your goal, your files should appear "out there" as though they were on a single computer, irrespective of how many computers are involved. Don't get caught in the trap of having your network just be an added burden. Most of them are. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:34 AM Subject: Network Hub selection help needed > I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I > need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks > yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. > It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I thought > I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe > something commercial grade, However. I thought about something from IBM > or 3Com, any suggestions?? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > > From rhb57 at vol.com Sun Apr 21 10:20:54 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought I had a similar problem with my Powermac, then though it was the AUI ethernet transciever - Nope (even though my cable tester said I had a good crimp with proper 1-1/2-2/3-3/etc connection) - it was a weak connection and once I cut and re-ended the drop for the PowerMac life came into the machine on the network and once "Dave" was installed it started chatting with all of it's Windows peers and the NT server, as well as my printers. The nice thing is that even though the transciever is 10baseT, data flows through it fast, thanks to the 2 8 port Skylink switches. When I had an autoswitch IBM 10/100 hub, the 10baseT equipment dragged it's ass, now I see very little difference in the 10baseT and 100baseT devices. I'm perfectly able to write CD's through the network on my PII-300 machine with a 16x writer, from even my old Dell 4066/XE 486DX2-66 based server (used for a while as a proxy server). Even SCSI DAT tape goes well, almost as fast as if the tape was diectly on the SCSI chain of that machine it's drawing files from. I've given away old SMC, IBM and other 10baseT hubs to experimenters just to get them out of my way after I got the 10/100 switches, and I won't install anything less than that as a customer replacement. When a 16 port switch is $75 new retail, why buy a used 10baseT hub for $10 or $15? Even if a machine HAS to go onto 10base2 coax, there are ways to convert with baluns or transcievers - or even uplink an old coupl-of-port hub with BNC to that particular segment. My Netserver has 2 10/100 nics, I had a 10base2 coax segment on an old hub from card 2, my 10/100 switches and all the UTP connected equipment on card 1. Worked well until I found a replacement MCA NIC (olicom) for my old IBM 9595 server (now out of service). => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige => Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:56 AM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: Network Hub selection help needed => => => >Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of => >money, you want to protect your investment by including => 100baseT capability => >even if you don't need it right now. => > => >If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but => most of the => >second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother => looking for => >IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And => >Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. => => I use a Netgear DS108 dual-speed, 8port hub and really like => it. It's small and does it's job well. My only complaint with it is => that it doesn't pick up on some 10baseT cards, such as an Asente PDS => NIC that is in my Color Classic. My other Mac's, NeXTs, and various => other machines work fine with it though. => => Jeff => -- => Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File => http://www.cchaven.com => http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 => => From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Apr 21 10:40:11 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Dave McGuire, from writings of Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 10:22:11PM -0400: > > Hmm...I sense some Microsoftism on the list... Yes, all of the danger signs are there, as well as the problem of otherwise intelligent hackers who've become subservient to the greedy and nonsensical biz'droid lusers in large corporations --- who are far worse, and far more dangerous to society, than they're portrayed in the Dilbert comic strip. We must liberate these hackers who've been brainwashed into subservience by the biz'droids, so that they can get back to useful hacking on useful systems. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 21 10:26:09 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org>; from rdd@rddavis.org on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:15:54AM -0400 References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20020421082609.A10827@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:15:54AM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe Richard Erlacher, spreader of pro-Microsoft propaganda, from his > writings of Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:07:40PM -0600: > > > ... and if you're dumb enough to believe that, you'll get what you deserve. > > Au contraire. Micro$oft windoze users get what they deserve. > > To bring this back on-topic: in the years prior to the existence of > Micro$oft and it's viruses pretending to be operating systems, can > anyone think of any vintage operating system(s) that was (were) known > for being poorly designed, annoying to use, and dangerous to data, > which was (were) regarded with the same disdain as Micro$oft windows, > yet still had loyal lusers who apparently didn't know any better than > not to use it (them)? Many would put OS/360 in that category. Some CDC 6600 OSs (I think NOS, maybe others) have permanent and temporary files. If your batch job ends and you haven't made your temporary files permanent, they will be gone. This unintuitive feature persisted after CDC added an interactive terminal interface to the underlying batch functionality. You could call that dangerous to data (and I wouldn't disagree with you). I hope I haven't messed up those facts... someone will probably correct me if I have. Doug Q.? And you can bet that there have been OSs (probably for small computers) with much less functionality than MS-DOS. I'm thinking of the kind that have file systems so rudimentary they're hardly worthy of the name (you are limited to a very small number of files, or files on disk must be contiguous, or there are no named files at all, just commands to dump memory to areas of disk and read it back again). Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. FORTH often still doesn't, though it was designed to be small. Doubtless there were others that were commercially sold. -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 21 10:28:44 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Boeing 707 simulator up for auction Message-ID: <20020421082844.B10827@eskimo.eskimo.com> This is probably old news for the flight-simulator crowd on the list, but I just came across the article in the newspaper. It won't be cheap, partly because it's serial number 0001 (one). http://www.707sim.com/ From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Apr 21 10:29:19 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: <20020421012053.GA16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe Peter C. Wallace, from writings of Fri, Apr 19, 2002 at 07:32:59PM -0700: > [quoting Tony Duell] > > > [2] THe most beautiful processor I've seen? The HP9100 one, of course. > > > I think the most beautiful processor I've seen is CPU card of the > > Symbolics 3645. The wiring and chip layout are really nice. One thing that > > I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that Tony was most likely > talking about the beauty of the engineering of the actual circuitry, > how the CPU (not a board containing a microprocessor, but a board > filled with the circuitry that makes up a CPU from many different ICs > - a true CPU board) was designed, as opposed to the superficial aspect > of a circuit board's appearance. I'll let Tony answer that if he wishes to... One of the reasons the Symbolics CPU is so nice is that the physical arrangement of parts reflects the CPU architecture... BTW the 9100 calculator doesn't use any ICs: its all transistors! > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > Peter Wallace From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 10:34:12 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > The US government is considering using MS Passport for a national online > ID system...more scary stuff... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! We're doomed. I'm moving to Europe. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 10:36:56 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <20020421082609.A10827@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > memory to areas of disk and read it back again). Apple's DOS 1 and 2 > had no files, or so I hear. FORTH often still doesn't, though it was Where'd you hear that? Any information on Apple DOS before version 3 would be interesting. I didn't think they HAD versions before 3.2. From what I've read, 3.2 was the version that was finally deemed complete and ready for release. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 10:37:30 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3CC2DCBA.8E985826@jetnet.ab.ca> > To bring this back on-topic: in the years prior to the existence of > Micro$oft and it's viruses pretending to be operating systems, can > anyone think of any vintage operating system(s) that was (were) known > for being poorly designed, annoying to use, and dangerous to data, > which was (were) regarded with the same disdain as Micro$oft windows, > yet still had loyal lusers who apparently didn't know any better than > not to use it (them)? Users never had a real say in the matter. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 10:46:47 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (R. D. Davis) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, R. D. Davis wrote: > > Hmm...I sense some Microsoftism on the list... > > Yes, all of the danger signs are there, as well as the problem of > otherwise intelligent hackers who've become subservient to the greedy > and nonsensical biz'droid lusers in large corporations --- who are far > worse, and far more dangerous to society, than they're portrayed in > the Dilbert comic strip. We must liberate these hackers who've been > brainwashed into subservience by the biz'droids, so that they can get > back to useful hacking on useful systems. I just try not to associate with them. :) (The guy sitting across the room from me is writing some firmware for the project we're working on. A $2000 commercial 8051 C compiler (for Windows of course, the land of commercial software) just crashed because a function in the code it was compiling wasn't prototyped. If this weren't commercial bullshit, I'd have the source code, and I'd have fixed the bug in ten or fifteen minutes. But noooooo, that bug will be there for at least the next year. Some people just like commercial crap...I will never figure out why.) But there's a pattern with the Windows folks...they're often people who tend to do what they're "supposed" to do, and you're "supposed" to use a PC and run Windows on it, so that's what they do. The decision was made for them and they won't question it. The whole "blind rule-following without thought" is a lifestyle that people assume by choice or upbringing...there's nothing wrong with it per se; we can't really fault 'em for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 10:50:28 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) (Ben Franchuk) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3CC2DCBA.8E985826@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15554.57284.692525.760220@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > To bring this back on-topic: in the years prior to the existence of > > Micro$oft and it's viruses pretending to be operating systems, can > > anyone think of any vintage operating system(s) that was (were) known > > for being poorly designed, annoying to use, and dangerous to data, > > which was (were) regarded with the same disdain as Micro$oft windows, > > yet still had loyal lusers who apparently didn't know any better than > > not to use it (them)? > > Users never had a real say in the matter. Really? Interesting. Was there a law passed that I was unaware of? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 10:49:27 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) References: Message-ID: <3CC2DF87.BDE1794B@jetnet.ab.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > One of the reasons the Symbolics CPU is so nice is that the physical > arrangement of parts reflects the CPU architecture... Too bad all the real nice machines , never made it to the general public. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 11:02:50 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <000d01c1e94d$fd12b5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well ... since you've gone trolling ... I can't remember a single widely used OS about which there weren't complaints galore from the system programmers. The evolution of desktop PC's, however, has made for lots of "system programmers" though in the current computing world I doubt there are any more competent ones than in the '60's. There are, of course millions claiming to be system programmers and claiming to know what they're doing. There are, in fact, enough to go around. I hardly believe Microsoft Windows to be the be-all and end-all of operating systems. I think the suggestion that Christopher Smith should give up his job just to promote the interests of the Microsoft-haters, however right or wrong they may be, is just plain stupid, and if he does that, as I said, he gets what he deserves. Now, if you're willing to give him a job, that's great, but there's no chance I'd hire anyone willing to follow such inane advice where employment is concerned. Since giving bad advice can make you liable, while being stupid enough to follow such advice can not, I'd be really careful about dispensing such advice. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 9:15 AM Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > Quothe Richard Erlacher, spreader of pro-Microsoft propaganda, from his > writings of Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 08:07:40PM -0600: > > > ... and if you're dumb enough to believe that, you'll get what you deserve. > > Au contraire. Micro$oft windoze users get what they deserve. > > To bring this back on-topic: in the years prior to the existence of > Micro$oft and it's viruses pretending to be operating systems, can > anyone think of any vintage operating system(s) that was (were) known > for being poorly designed, annoying to use, and dangerous to data, > which was (were) regarded with the same disdain as Micro$oft windows, > yet still had loyal lusers who apparently didn't know any better than > not to use it (them)? > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 11:01:27 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > (The guy sitting across the room from me is writing some firmware for > the project we're working on. A $2000 commercial 8051 C compiler (for > Windows of course, the land of commercial software) just crashed > because a function in the code it was compiling wasn't prototyped. If > this weren't commercial bullshit, I'd have the source code, and I'd > have fixed the bug in ten or fifteen minutes. But noooooo, that bug > will be there for at least the next year. Some people just like > commercial crap...I will never figure out why.) > My gripe is that even if you develop new hardware using FPGA/CPLD's you are still tied to windows crap, because the manufactures will not release the programing information for said devices. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 11:03:32 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3CC2DCBA.8E985826@jetnet.ab.ca> <15554.57284.692525.760220@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CC2E2D4.BD0A512F@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Really? Interesting. Was there a law passed that I was unaware of? > > -Dave "Yes Dave there was" Hal 9000 :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 11:17:56 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You can get the same software for UNIX, if you don't mind the $250K pricetag. You won't get the source code there, either, of course, but I doubt you'd expend 200 man-years developing a piece of software at your expense and then give away the source code. If you did, your shareholders would tar and feather you. People like the software for FPGA's and CPLD's because it's either free or under $100 US. There are so many high-quality 805x compilers that are "freeware" or "shareware" that I can't see any reason one would want one of the $2000 types, unless he was convinced he could make his work easier by spending that money. If people would keep after the producers of the purportedly faulty software, it would get fixed. Vendors of shoddy software rely on the fact that people buy their products under the mistaken notion that it will do their work for them, knowing that, when the end-user finds out it's not so, he'll be too embarassed to complain that the product doesn't work any better than the comparable freeware product. There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get is a bigger bill. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Dave McGuire wrote: > > (The guy sitting across the room from me is writing some firmware for > > the project we're working on. A $2000 commercial 8051 C compiler (for > > Windows of course, the land of commercial software) just crashed > > because a function in the code it was compiling wasn't prototyped. If > > this weren't commercial bullshit, I'd have the source code, and I'd > > have fixed the bug in ten or fifteen minutes. But noooooo, that bug > > will be there for at least the next year. Some people just like > > commercial crap...I will never figure out why.) > > > My gripe is that even if you develop new hardware using FPGA/CPLD's you > are still tied to windows crap, because the manufactures will not > release the programing information for said devices. > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Apr 21 11:34:50 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? In-Reply-To: References: <3BDD57A4.65C27060@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20020421163450.GC16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Jeff Hellige, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 09:07:40AM +0500: > The US government is considering using MS Passport for a national online > ID system...more scary stuff... Wow, that Orwellian article reeks of Big Brother! However, that's not surprising considering that the majority of modern-day U.S. politicians are greedy b*stards lacking in intellect---they dislike liberty and freedom, and are interested only in the higest paying special interest groups (e.g. - very large corporations), sex scandals (involvement in and making issues out of), passing insipid laws, bilking the citizens out of their income and property, and partaking in religious warfare. It's also interesting how Micro$oft got off the hook in the anti-trust suit once Little Georgie "the anti-intellect" Bush'em replaced Slick Willie & Kooky Hillary & Co. as chief executive loon (or is that goon or both: gloon?) of the U.S. *** The question of most relevance to this group: if any of this goes through, will we be prevented from using classic systems, or even non-Microsoft systems period, to access the Internet? It appears that they have the long-range goal of requiring people to be "authenticated," using Micro$lothware, in order to use the 'net for anything, and hence, trace who does what where and when, and keep better track of who says what. It also looks like an attempt to stike a fatal blow to the use of free software in the U.S., notably free operating systems, e-mail software and Apache, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 11:27:49 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? References: <3BDD57A4.65C27060@jetnet.ab.ca> <20020421163450.GC16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <000701c1e951$7a982a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Rather than preaching to the choir, as you're doing here, why not gather up some concrete facts to support your claims and pursue them with your elected officials? It's an election year, and they'll appreciate some realistic grist for the mill. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? > Quothe Jeff Hellige, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 09:07:40AM +0500: > > The US government is considering using MS Passport for a national online > > ID system...more scary stuff... > > Wow, that Orwellian article reeks of Big Brother! > > However, that's not surprising considering that the majority of > modern-day U.S. politicians are greedy b*stards lacking in > intellect---they dislike liberty and freedom, and are interested only > in the higest paying special interest groups (e.g. - very large > corporations), sex scandals (involvement in and making issues out of), > passing insipid laws, bilking the citizens out of their income and > property, and partaking in religious warfare. It's also interesting > how Micro$oft got off the hook in the anti-trust suit once Little > Georgie "the anti-intellect" Bush'em replaced Slick Willie & Kooky > Hillary & Co. as chief executive loon (or is that goon or both: > gloon?) of the U.S. > > *** The question of most relevance to this group: if any of this goes > through, will we be prevented from using classic systems, or even > non-Microsoft systems period, to access the Internet? It appears that > they have the long-range goal of requiring people to be > "authenticated," using Micro$lothware, in order to use the 'net for > anything, and hence, trace who does what where and when, and keep > better track of who says what. It also looks like an attempt to stike > a fatal blow to the use of free software in the U.S., notably free > operating systems, e-mail software and Apache, etc. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 11:37:15 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You can get the same software for UNIX, if you don't mind the $250K pricetag. > You won't get the source code there, either, of course, but I doubt you'd > expend 200 man-years developing a piece of software at your expense and then > give away the source code. If you did, your shareholders would tar and > feather you. Most of the software in use in the UNIX world is free. Of course there ARE commercial packages, but...with very few exceptions, for every commercial package there's at least one free one that does the job as well or better. It's possible that I'm preaching to the choir here, but one of the common misconceptions that really bugs me is the notion that "unix == expensive", when in reality it's just the opposite. (The same goes for "pc vs. real computers" in the "I use a PC because I can't afford a Sun or an Alpha" case...) > People like the software for FPGA's and CPLD's because it's either free or > under $100 US. There are so many high-quality 805x compilers that are FPGA and CPLD stuff are some of the exceptions that I mentioned in my paragraph above. For that stuff we're pretty much stuck with Windows due to the shortsightedness of the vendors. There's nothing we can do about that at this point, as far as I can tell. :-( I curb that problem by using Windows (under an emulator of course) ONLY for the stuff that I can't run under a real OS. > "freeware" or "shareware" that I can't see any reason one would want one of > the $2000 types, unless he was convinced he could make his work easier by > spending that money. If people would keep after the producers of the > purportedly faulty software, it would get fixed. Vendors of shoddy software > rely on the fact that people buy their products under the mistaken notion that > it will do their work for them, knowing that, when the end-user finds out it's > not so, he'll be too embarassed to complain that the product doesn't work any > better than the comparable freeware product. I agree 100%. Needless to say, we're trashing this compiler after this project. :-) The fancy GUI is nice, but frankly I can be more productive with xemacs and make. > There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, > though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for > UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get > is a bigger bill. Not necessarily...I've used at least four FREE 8051 C compilers under UNIX, nearly ten years ago! $2000 *is* high, when most of the 8051 compilers I've used cost $0. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 11:47:53 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > You can get the same software for UNIX, if you don't mind the $250K pricetag. > You won't get the source code there, either, of course, but I doubt you'd > expend 200 man-years developing a piece of software at your expense and then > give away the source code. If you did, your shareholders would tar and > feather you. That is not what I asking for. One I developed a design (using undefined software) I don't want have a $2,000 computer running windows 2022 to re-program my chips from a printer port that developed in 2002 as the chips only have a 20 year life span, from data files that have been sitting on a floppy for years. > People like the software for FPGA's and CPLD's because it's either free or > under $100 US. It is getting a FPGA programmed that is the problem. I found this out the hard way, as they don't make under $500 programers for the serial FPGA proms and very few people even publish a J-TAG interface for a printer port for the stuff that can be programed that way. > There are so many high-quality 805x compilers that are > "freeware" or "shareware" that I can't see any reason one would want one of > the $2000 types, unless he was convinced he could make his work easier by > spending that money. If people would keep after the producers of the > purportedly faulty software, it would get fixed. Vendors of shoddy software > rely on the fact that people buy their products under the mistaken notion that > it will do their work for them, knowing that, when the end-user finds out it's > not so, he'll be too embarassed to complain that the product doesn't work any > better than the comparable freeware product. Funny what ever happened to assembler programing??? I know, I know ... managment never tells a programer what to program until a week after it needed in the field. > There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, > though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for > UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get > is a bigger bill. LINUX != UNIX. ( But you are right ) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 21 11:51:46 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 08:36:56AM -0700 References: <20020421082609.A10827@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20020421095146.A12953@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 08:36:56AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > > memory to areas of disk and read it back again). Apple's DOS 1 and 2 > > had no files, or so I hear. FORTH often still doesn't, though it was > > Where'd you hear that? On some "history of the Apple" site, probably. > > Any information on Apple DOS before version 3 would be interesting. I > didn't think they HAD versions before 3.2. From what I've read, 3.2 was > the version that was finally deemed complete and ready for release. 1 and 2 were not released (which is why I don't have any more information than you do). You may be interested in chapter 2 of _Beneath Apple DOS_. Since its introduction, Apple DOS has gone through three major versions. All of these versions look very much the same on the surface. All commands supported by DOS 3.3 are also supported in 3.2 and 3.1. The need for additional versions has been more to fix errors in DOS and to make minor enhancements than to provide additional functionality. Only DOS 3.3 has offered any major improvement in function; an increase in the number of sectors that will fit on a track from 13 to 16. DOS 3 - 29 June 1978 DOS 3.1 - 20 July 1978 The first release of DOS was apparently a victim of a rush at Apple to introduce the DISK II. As such, it had a number of bugs. With the movement towards the APPLE II PLUS and the introduction of the AUTOSTART ROM, a new release was needed. DOS 3.2 - 16 February 1979 Although DOS 3.2 embodied more changes from its predecessor than any other release of DOS, 90% of the basic structure of DOS 3.1 was retained. The major differences between DOS 3.1 and 3.2 and later versions of DOS are listed below: - NOMON C,I,O is the initial default under DOS 3.2. MON C,I,O was the default under DOS 3.1. - Input prompts (>,],*) are echoed when MON O is in effect, not under MON I as was the case under 3.1. - When a DOS command was entered from the keyboard, DOS executed it and then passed a blank followed by a carriage return to BASIC under 3.1. Under 3.2 only a carriage return is passed. - Under 3.2, certain commands may not be entered from the keyboard but may only be used within a BASIC program (READ, WRITE, POSITION, OPEN, APPEND). - Under 3.2, when LOADing an APPLESOFT program, DOS automatically converts from APPLESOFT ROM format to APPLESOFT RAM format if the RAM version of BASIC is in use and vice versa. - DOS 3.1 could not read lowercase characters from a text file; DOS 3.2 can. - Some DOS commands are allowed to create a new file, others will not. Under DOS 3.1, any reference to a file that didn't exist, caused it to be created. This forced DOS 3.1 to then delete it if a new file was not desired. (LOAD XYZ under 3.1 if XYZ did not exist, created XYZ, deleted XYZ, and then printed the file not found error message.) Under 3.2, OPEN is allowed to create a file if one does not exist, but LOAD may not. - Under 3.1, exiting to the monitor required that the monitor status register location ($48) be set to zero before reentering DOS. Under DOS 3.2 this is no longer necessary. - The Read-Write/Track-Sector (RWTS) section of DOS disables interrupts while it is executing. Under 3.1, RWTS could be interrupted by a peripheral while writing to a disk, destroying the disk. - The default for the B (byte offset) keyword is 0 under 3.2. - DOS was reassembled for 3.2 causing most of its interesting locations and routines to move slightly. This played havoc with user programs and utilities which had DOS addresses built into them. - Additional file types (beyond T, I, A, and B) are defined within DOS 3.2, although no commands yet support them. The new types are S, R, a new A, and a new B. R has subsequently been used by the DOS TOOLKIT for relocatable object module assembler files. At present, no other use is made of these extra file types. - Support was added under 3.2 for the AUTOSTART ROM. - All files open when a disk full condition occurs are closed by DOS 3.2. - As with each new release of DOS, several new programs were added to the master diskette for 3.2. Among these was UPDATE 3.2, a replacement for MASTER CREATE, the utility for creating master diskettes. UPDATE 3.2 converts a slave into a master and allows the HELLO file to be renamed. DOS 3.2.1 - 31 July 1979 DOS 3.2.1 was essentially a "maintenance release" of DOS 3.2. Minor patches were made to RWTS and the COPY program to correct a timing problem when a dual drive copy was done. Additional delays were added following a switch between drives. DOS 3.3 - 25 August 1980 Introduced in mid 1980 as a hardware/software upgrade from DOS 3.2.1, the DOS 3.3 package includes new bootstrap and state ROM chips for the disk controller card which provide the capability to format, read, and write a diskette with 16 sectors. (These ROMs are the same ones used with the LANGUAGE SYSTEM.) This improvement represents almost a 25% increase in available disk space over the old 13 sector format. Also included in the 3.3 package is an updated version of the DOS manual, a BASICS diskette (for 13 sector boots), and a master diskette. Although the RWTS portion of DOS was almost totally rewritten, the rest of DOS was not reassembled and only received a few patches: - The initial DOS bootstrap loader was moved to $800 under 3.3. It was at $300 under 3.2. In addition, as stored on the diskette (track 0 sector 0) it is nibblized in the same way as all other sectors under 3.3. - A bug in APPEND which caused it to position improperly if the file was a multiple of 256 bytes long was fixed under 3.3. - A VERIFY command is internally executed after every SAVE or BSAVE under 3.3. - All 4 bytes are used in the Volume Table Of Contents (VTOC) free sector bit map when keeping track of free sectors. This allows DOS to handle up to 32 sectors per track. Of course, RWTS will only handle 16 sectors due to hardware limitations. - If a LANGUAGE CARD is present, DOS stores a zero on it at $E000 during bootstrap to force the HELLO program on the master diskette to reload BASIC. - DOS is read into memory from the top down (backwards) under 3.3 rather than the bottom up. The image is still stored in the same order on diskette (tracks 0, 1, and 2), however. - Additional programs added to the master diskette under 3.3 include FID, a generalized file utility which allows individual files or groups of files to be copied, MUFFIN, a conversion copy routine to allow 3.2 files to be moved to 16 sector 3.3 diskettes, BOOT 13, a program which will boot a 13 sector diskette, and a new COPY program which will also support single drive copies. - Under 3.2, speed differences in some drives prevented their use together with the COPY program. Because the COPY program was rewritten under 3.3, that restriction no longer applies. DOS 3.3 - 1 January 1983 This "maintenance release" of DOS was introduced with the Apple IIe computer. It contains a few minor patches and no additional function. - A patch was introduced in DOS 3.3 to fix a bug in APPEND processing. This patch also had bugs. Additional patches were added to (hopefully) correct this problem. - An error for the POSITION calculation in large files is corrected in this release. - A few instructions were added to properly support the 80 column display on the Apple IIe. - The system master diskette contains some different files. Notably, a fast loader for the language card and all of the example programs have been moved to a separate diskette. No, I don't have an online copy of the book -- I just typed everything in. Some other historical tidbits: DOS 3.x was not written by Apple but by Optimized System Software. They later went on to write the DOS for the Atari 8-bit machines, which has a very polished and modular internal organization (though Atari never really upgraded the hardware -- also it would be nice to get rid of the menu system and mix BASIC with DOS -- I think there are software programs to do that). FID says FIle Developer in its title screen. A few years ago I read (on comp.sys.apple2) that it was originally called FISHEAD. (That is a horrible acronym but I forget what for.) The Apple management protested. Little did they know that FID really stands for Fishead In Disguise! And MUFFIN was named for the programmer's dog. A program to convert 3.3 files back to 3.2 exists and is called (naturally enough) NIFFUM. I'm not sure if the APPEND bug was ever completely fixed. DOS doesn't record the length of a text file, unlike ProDOS; that undoubtedly makes the programmer's life harder. I believe sparse text files under DOS are also a complete pain. -- Derek From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Apr 21 11:52:35 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421164305.02891e78@kerberos.davies.net.au> from Huw Davies at "Apr 21, 2002 04:45:18 pm" Message-ID: <200204211652.JAA12890@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > At 07:35 PM 20/04/2002 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > >That does _NOT_ explain why the base unit is called the kilogram (it's > >the name I am objecting to, and the way that multiples/submultiples are > >named [1]). > > My understanding for using the Kg rather than g is that it cuts down on the > number of zeros needed. Most real world things we weigh are a more Kg like > than g. For example, a VAX-8800 might weigh 400Kg, which is 400,000g > (there's a good chance of losing one of those zeros). Haven't been paying too much attention to the thread, but I have to chime in that astronomers don't use the SI (aka MKS (meters, kilograms, seconds)) standard units, but use CGS (centimeter, gram, seconds) based units. Of course, astronomers always have too many zeros. It doesn't really matter if a parsec is 3.09x10^18 cm or 3.09x10^16 m. Where is does get confusing is electric charge. In CGS, the charge of an electron is 4.8x10^-10 electrostatic units (e.s.u.). An e.s.u. is one g^(1/2) cm^(3/2) s^(-1). Eric From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 21 12:00:33 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from pcw@mesanet.com on Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:52:02AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20020421100032.B12953@eskimo.eskimo.com> I sent you a personal mesasge and then you replied to the list... either your mail server is "smart" (fills in To: automatically) or you did some extra typing. *grumble* *mutter* So we might as well bring the discussion back to the list (i.e., yes, I realize I'm replying to the list this time). On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:52:02AM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > The design of both the software and the hardware strikes me as baroque > > (typical MIT "just keep adding features" hacking). Also the system as a > I dont think that there was a whole lot there that was not needed. A > tagged architecture 36 bit machine with paged virtual memory, ECC, capable of > executing about 5 million Lisp instructions a second was not trivial to build > in 1985... I'm not convinced. I'm not saying it was trivial, I'm saying it seems to have evolved more than being designed from the ground up. Come on, look at the keyboard. And the software is still baroque. Powerful, but baroque. > You can download a Interlisp/common lisp environment from PARC that will run > under Linux (its actually an application (LFG)) but you can play with SEdit > and Tedit) ... Do you have a URL? -- Derek From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 12:00:38 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Ben Franchuk) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <15554.61494.163028.258630@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, > > though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for > > UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get > > is a bigger bill. > > LINUX != UNIX. ( But you are right ) What does that have to do with it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 21 11:13:44 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? References: Message-ID: <009201c1e956$c74f3240$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Sure it's scary, but I would expect our government to keep the upper hand in this relationship. A no single source contract, for example, where MS is forced to share the product with an outside company. Note: AOL is mentioned, positively, by WHG in this article. Thanks for the news and keep us posted! John A. no I'm not saying it's good news. From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 21 12:03:44 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed References: Message-ID: <009301c1e956$c7dd1a60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Can I ask for a Classiccmp angle? I have a DEC DELNI sitting around, and some AUI/bT transcievers. Can this be used in a mixed Linux/VMS/MSwin environment? I had heard that DELNI's were somewhet limited. I'm aware that modern networking is very affordable and small, but its a classiccmp thing I'm talking about here. Yes, conversely, If I had b2/bT transcievers (or would these be Baluns) and a modern Hub (or Switch), could that be used to network VAX'es together? John A. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Apr 21 12:05:15 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Boeing 707 simulator up for auction References: <20020421082844.B10827@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3CC2F14A.4DA80460@ccp.com> I wonder if there is an embargo of these to Arab countries????? Gary Hildebrand Derek Peschel wrote: > > This is probably old news for the flight-simulator crowd on the list, > but I just came across the article in the newspaper. It won't be cheap, > partly because it's serial number 0001 (one). > > http://www.707sim.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 21 12:16:32 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed References: Message-ID: <00b401c1e958$49f3e8c0$66000240@default> I hope to start hooking up a mix of hardware very soon and have over the last week picked up a Linksys Fast Ethernet 5-Port Workgroup Hub model FEHUB05W ($2.92), a Linksys EtherFast cable/DSL Router model BEFSR41 ($20), and a Katron 10BASE-T Ethernet hub 8 Plus model Hub/8 ($10) and now have tofigure which to use? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 10:20 AM Subject: RE: Network Hub selection help needed > I thought I had a similar problem with my Powermac, then though it was the > AUI ethernet transciever - Nope (even though my cable tester said I had a > good crimp with proper 1-1/2-2/3-3/etc connection) - it was a weak > connection and once I cut and re-ended the drop for the PowerMac life came > into the machine on the network and once "Dave" was installed it started > chatting with all of it's Windows peers and the NT server, as well as my > printers. The nice thing is that even though the transciever is 10baseT, > data flows through it fast, thanks to the 2 8 port Skylink switches. When I > had an autoswitch IBM 10/100 hub, the 10baseT equipment dragged it's ass, > now I see very little difference in the 10baseT and 100baseT devices. > > I'm perfectly able to write CD's through the network on my PII-300 machine > with a 16x writer, from even my old Dell 4066/XE 486DX2-66 based server > (used for a while as a proxy server). Even SCSI DAT tape goes well, almost > as fast as if the tape was diectly on the SCSI chain of that machine it's > drawing files from. > > I've given away old SMC, IBM and other 10baseT hubs to experimenters just to > get them out of my way after I got the 10/100 switches, and I won't install > anything less than that as a customer replacement. When a 16 port switch is > $75 new retail, why buy a used 10baseT hub for $10 or $15? Even if a machine > HAS to go onto 10base2 coax, there are ways to convert with baluns or > transcievers - or even uplink an old coupl-of-port hub with BNC to that > particular segment. My Netserver has 2 10/100 nics, I had a 10base2 coax > segment on an old hub from card 2, my 10/100 switches and all the UTP > connected equipment on card 1. Worked well until I found a replacement MCA > NIC (olicom) for my old IBM 9595 server (now out of service). > > => -----Original Message----- > => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige > => Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:56 AM > => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > => Subject: Re: Network Hub selection help needed > => > => > => >Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of > => >money, you want to protect your investment by including > => 100baseT capability > => >even if you don't need it right now. > => > > => >If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but > => most of the > => >second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother > => looking for > => >IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And > => >Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. > => > => I use a Netgear DS108 dual-speed, 8port hub and really like > => it. It's small and does it's job well. My only complaint with it is > => that it doesn't pick up on some 10baseT cards, such as an Asente PDS > => NIC that is in my Color Classic. My other Mac's, NeXTs, and various > => other machines work fine with it though. > => > => Jeff > => -- > => Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > => http://www.cchaven.com > => http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > => > => > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 12:17:54 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com><20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org><001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com><20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org><15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com><3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca><001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Clearly we see things from different perspectives. see below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 10:37 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > You can get the same software for UNIX, if you don't mind the $250K pricetag. > > You won't get the source code there, either, of course, but I doubt you'd > > expend 200 man-years developing a piece of software at your expense and then > > give away the source code. If you did, your shareholders would tar and > > feather you. > > Most of the software in use in the UNIX world is free. Of course > there ARE commercial packages, but...with very few exceptions, for > every commercial package there's at least one free one that does the > job as well or better. It's possible that I'm preaching to the choir > here, but one of the common misconceptions that really bugs me is the > notion that "unix == expensive", when in reality it's just the > opposite. (The same goes for "pc vs. real computers" in the "I use a > PC because I can't afford a Sun or an Alpha" case...) > That's not been my experience. In fact, until LINUX, which I don't presently use either, I had never seen any software of any use at all other than for software development for UNIX. The EDA stuff I saw was not terribly useful, but some folks managed to beat it into submission. I can't forget the tradeshow when I ruled out UNIX in my mind. A vendor had essentially the same software for DOS and UNIX. The UNIX version cost 50x what the DOS version cost, and the hardware also cost over 10x the cost of an adequate PC. The two software packages "looked and felt" as well as worked, indistinguishably once one was inside the application. Time was, when UNIX was the OS of choice for EDA tools because that's the environment under which they were developed, and since they had to be patched frequently. Whenever a patch was applied, it was likely to "reach out and touch someone" (undesired side-effect) which meant a complete system rebuild with lots of downtime and plenty of aggravation, not to mention a complete lack of assurance it would fix anything. > > > People like the software for FPGA's and CPLD's because it's either free or > > under $100 US. There are so many high-quality 805x compilers that are > > FPGA and CPLD stuff are some of the exceptions that I mentioned in > the stuff that I can't run under a real OS. > The FPGA/CPLD vendors would like to support everybody who's likely to use their products. However, support is a problem under UNIX, since there are numerous versions (I've had several) that lack compatibility. The size of the market doesn't justify working up a freeware version for every UNIX version though, so I think they're wise avoiding the expense. LINUX is getting some support, though. > > > "freeware" or "shareware" that I can't see any reason one would want one of > > better than the comparable freeware product. > > I agree 100%. Needless to say, we're trashing this compiler after > this project. :-) The fancy GUI is nice, but frankly I can be more > productive with xemacs and make. > Because of the pressure from freeware, many of the 805x compilers are intended to support a set of hardware provided by the vendor. That tends to limit their scope. > > > There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, > > though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for > > UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get > > is a bigger bill. > > Not necessarily...I've used at least four FREE 8051 C compilers under > UNIX, nearly ten years ago! $2000 *is* high, when most of the 8051 > compilers I've used cost $0. > and, for the most part, the freeware is often better than the commercial products. I've seen little "source-available" freeware that was very good, however. The LINUX stuff is a good example. Much of the code sits, full of ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not obvious. It's a wonder any of it works, but it seems it does. It's unlikely there'll ever be UNIX/GNU freeware that's as useable as the comparable DOS/Windows stuff, though, since what looks to be the case is that nobody wants to document the UNIX/GNU freeware. > I've got about half-a-dozen of the free assembler/simulator/debugger packages for Windows some of which come along with compilers for PL/M, Pascal, and 'C.' I'm certainly not surprised that there are UNIX tools of that sort around, since the 805x core has been around since '84 or so, when I started with it. Back then, BTW, there was no Windows, nor was there much freeware. I used UNIX on SUN hardware back then and it cost $100K a year for the personnel needed to keep the rather small SUN system running. The typical EDA software package cost over $200K and was patched about once a month, resulting in about ten days' downtime per patch. I was fortunate enough that my client back then was willing to take the SUN junk and its equally loathsome OS off my hands so I didn't lose too much. I happily went back to CP/M, which served much better, in my view. Unfortunately, there was little freeware of any use for CP/M just as there is for Windows. The OS was not available in source form, nor was it likely you'd find source code for any application that was of any use. Back then, if you wanted development software tools that worked pretty well, you bought Microsoft compilers, assemblers, linkers, etc. Their stuff worked, was adequately documented, etc. Nothing lasts forever, though. Dick From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 21 12:16:14 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) References: <200204211652.JAA12890@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <00cf01c1e958$3f671a80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Haven't been paying too much attention to the thread, Same here, I try to keep busy off the list too. > Where is does get confusing is electric charge. Speaking of confusing, IIRC, the terms anode/cathode changed polarity between the Physicist and the Chemist. John A. From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Apr 21 12:25:46 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:53 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20020421100032.B12953@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > I sent you a personal mesasge and then you replied to the list... either > your mail server is "smart" (fills in To: automatically) or you did some > extra typing. *grumble* *mutter* So we might as well bring the discussion > back to the list (i.e., yes, I realize I'm replying to the list this time). > > On Sat, Apr 20, 2002 at 07:52:02AM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > The design of both the software and the hardware strikes me as baroque > > > (typical MIT "just keep adding features" hacking). Also the system as a > > > I dont think that there was a whole lot there that was not needed. A > > tagged architecture 36 bit machine with paged virtual memory, ECC, capable of > > executing about 5 million Lisp instructions a second was not trivial to build > > in 1985... > > I'm not convinced. I'm not saying it was trivial, I'm saying it seems > to have evolved more than being designed from the ground up. Come on, > look at the keyboard. And the software is still baroque. Powerful, > but baroque. Of course it evolved, what commercial computer systems vintage 1985 did not evolve from earlier systems? The proportion of new ideas embodied in the 36xx is probably as high or higher than many other systems of the time. Baroque compared to what? Other Lisp environments? Other operating systems? > > > You can download a Interlisp/common lisp environment from PARC that will run > > under Linux (its actually an application (LFG)) but you can play with SEdit > > and Tedit) ... > > Do you have a URL? http://www.parc.xerox.com/istl/groups/nltt/medley/ > > -- Derek > Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 12:38:10 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure I'm following you here, Ben. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > You can get the same software for UNIX, if you don't mind the $250K pricetag. > > You won't get the source code there, either, of course, but I doubt you'd > > expend 200 man-years developing a piece of software at your expense and then > > give away the source code. If you did, your shareholders would tar and > > feather you. > > That is not what I asking for. Once I developed a design (using undefined > software) I don't want have a $2,000 computer running windows 2022 to > re-program my chips from a printer port that developed in 2002 as the > chips only have a 20 year life span, from data files that have been > sitting on a floppy for years. > A $2000 computer, unless it's a notebook, is a pretty fancy system. I saw an ad on the TV yesterday from a local dealer for a complete Pentium box at just under a GHz with a large (40GB) HDD, plenty of RAM, USB, modem, ethernet, and 17" monitor for < $600. > > > People like the software for FPGA's and CPLD's because it's either free or > > under $100 US. > > It is getting a FPGA programmed that is the problem. I found this out > the hard way, as they don't make under $500 programers for the serial > FPGA proms and very few people even publish a J-TAG interface for a > printer port for the stuff that can be programed that way. > Altera and Xilinx have published parallel port JTAG programming interfaces for their devices. > If you attach the EPROM/EEPROM that contains the configuration file for an FPGA to the appropriate pins on the FPGA, it programs itself each time the power is applied. FPGA's are generally RAM based and "forget" what they are when they're powered down. Programming the PROM that configures them is quite straightforward with nearly any PROM programmer, and the mfg's don't make requirements for programming them a secret. > > > There are so many high-quality 805x compilers that are > > better than the comparable freeware product. > > Funny what ever happened to assembler programing??? > I know, I know ... managment never tells a programer what to program > until a week after it needed in the field. > Programming most of the logic in 'C' is pretty well accepted practice since EPROMS are as big and inexpensive as they are today. Critically timed code has to be written in assembler, and people often forget that. Many designers compensate for code that is inefficient, slow, and large, by using a controller chip that has WAY (20x) more code space and performance than needed. The coders will use it all. > > > There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, > > though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for > > UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get > > is a bigger bill. > > LINUX != UNIX. ( But you are right ) > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 12:41:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com><20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org><001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com><20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org><15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com><3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca><001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <15554.61494.163028.258630@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001f01c1e95b$bb922f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What it clearly says if you don't prune the context is that I'm not alone in my observation that UNIX stuff costs 10x-100x what the comparable DOS/Windows stuff costs. This may not be a balanced comparison, since Ben's looking at the same sort of stuff I'm looking at much of the time, but it does suggest that I'm not alone in my observation. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > There is a demo version of nearly every high-cost ($2000 isn't that high, btw, > > > though the Windows environment has made it so.) Get a comparable product for > > > UNIX, and you'll get no improvement, nor will you get source. All you'll get > > > is a bigger bill. > > > > LINUX != UNIX. ( But you are right ) > > What does that have to do with it? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 21 12:42:26 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: OT: MS Passport to be used for online National ID system?? References: Message-ID: <3CC2FA02.1050005@dragonsweb.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > The US government is considering using MS Passport for a national online > ID system...more scary stuff... > > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134438173_passport18.html > > Jeff What's wrong with X.509 over SSL, in those few, isolated instances where ID is actually relevant or required? All vendors can support this. Most do already. Aside from subsidizing MS, all this will do is encourage unnecessary ID'ing, with the effect of reducing security, esp. given Passport and Microsoft's established track record. It will generally increase entropy and opportunities for Kafkaesqe bureaucratic irrelevance standing in the way of actually getting anything productive accomplished, and even inflicting actual harm on citizens. I should note that I am against the anti-trust suit. Three left turns still make a wrong, there, as well as here. Who set up the path MS took anyway? A succession of U.S. Congresses requiring the courts to make judgements based on conflicting, shifting, political and economic grounds, rather than justice or constitutional principles, among other things. Duh. MS is just a conventient whipping boy. Like a host of industrial giants in the '50s and '60s. jbdigriz From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 21 12:59:26 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <017101c1e95e$bceb2810$c3f09a8d@ajp166> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:28 PM The whole mid 80s thing with workstations was a disaster in many respects as everyone was trying to put more processor in a box and unix was the OS of choice as it was easily ported and offered most of the higher level OS functions that stuff like DOS was clueless about. The problem was unix was easily ported though it didn't make for portable apps, usually due to underlying hardware or even the basic processor. In that respect CP/M and DOS made it easier as at least if it was CP/M-80 you knew your base cpu was 8080/z80 and if it was DOS you could bet on 808x. Unix back then meant MIPS, VAX, PDP-11, SUN/sparc, 68000, Z8000, and a few dozen I likely missed. >I've got about half-a-dozen of the free assembler/simulator/debugger packages >for Windows some of which come along with compilers for PL/M, Pascal, and 'C.' >I'm certainly not surprised that there are UNIX tools of that sort around, >since the 805x core has been around since '84 or so, when I started with it. >Back then, BTW, there was no Windows, nor was there much freeware. I used >UNIX on SUN hardware back then and it cost $100K a year for the personnel >needed to keep the rather small SUN system running. The typical EDA software >package cost over $200K and was patched about once a month, resulting in about >ten days' downtime per patch. Note the 8051 is 1981. I started with that chip using freeware under CP/M-80 and still use most of those tools. When there was a requirement I'd use a commercial compiler from Avocet systems a relatively inexpesive package back then. The idea that PCs were a unversal platform and was foreign to me until the vary late 80s ('89!). Even then DOS was the default not winders, assuming it wasn't SCO unix or the like. In the end a lot has been forgotten about the timeframe from 82 to about 88 where there was not just a little flux in the market and the PC was only one player. >happily went back to CP/M, which served much better, in my view. >Unfortunately, there was little freeware of any use for CP/M just as there is >for Windows. The OS was not available in source form, nor was it likely you'd Actually there was but the problem of incompatable media was crippling unless you had the majik 8"sssd box. The realy 80s was an explosive time for CP/M-80 software if you could get it in a form you could use. There was a large amount stuff published, but typing in 8-10 pages of listing was often a good reason not to persue it. What was also a bonus was the amount of cheapware (low cost), stuff that was good but, cheap to buy. >find source code for any application that was of any use. Back then, if you >wanted development software tools that worked pretty well, you bought >Microsoft compilers, assemblers, linkers, etc. Their stuff worked, was >adequately documented, etc. Actually back (pre 83ish) then MS was a language and development tool house and I'd say a fairly decent one at the time. >Nothing lasts forever, though. Roger that! Allison From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Apr 21 13:08:36 2002 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <009301c1e956$c7dd1a60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200204211808.NAA02209@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Just get yourself a long piece of Thicknet. The trick is installing the Vampire Taps... -Lawrence LeMay > Can I ask for a Classiccmp angle? I have a DEC DELNI sitting > around, and some AUI/bT transcievers. Can this be used in a > mixed Linux/VMS/MSwin environment? I had heard that DELNI's > were somewhet limited. I'm aware that modern networking is > very affordable and small, but its a classiccmp thing I'm talking > about here. > Yes, conversely, If I had b2/bT transcievers (or would these be Baluns) > and a modern Hub (or Switch), could that be used to network > VAX'es together? > > John A. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 13:14:40 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC30190.4836BBDF@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > A $2000 computer, unless it's a notebook, is a pretty fancy system. I saw an > ad on the TV yesterday from a local dealer for a complete Pentium box at just > under a GHz with a large (40GB) HDD, plenty of RAM, USB, modem, ethernet, and > 17" monitor for < $600. I forgot to state CANADIAN :) and that was a ball park figure. > Altera and Xilinx have published parallel port JTAG programming interfaces for > their devices. I have not been able to find Altera's. Xilinx's schematic is in the documentation as a apendex to the programing manual. > If you attach the EPROM/EEPROM that contains the configuration file for an > FPGA to the appropriate pins on the FPGA, it programs itself each time the > power is applied. FPGA's are generally RAM based and "forget" what they are > when they're powered down. Programming the PROM that configures them is quite > straightforward with nearly any PROM programmer, and the mfg's don't make > requirements for programming them a secret. With altera ( the fpga I have ) serial proms are the only easy way to program the chip.I still need a uP to program the FPGA from standard memory. > Programming most of the logic in 'C' is pretty well accepted practice since > EPROMS are as big and inexpensive as they are today. Critically timed code > has to be written in assembler, and people often forget that. Many designers > compensate for code that is inefficient, slow, and large, by using a > controller chip that has WAY (20x) more code space and performance than > needed. The coders will use it all. I guess waiting for 4k focal to load on a TTY gives me a bias against bigger systems. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From rhb57 at vol.com Sun Apr 21 13:19:05 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Boeing 707 simulator up for auction In-Reply-To: <3CC2F14A.4DA80460@ccp.com> Message-ID: Augusta is a Wichita "suburb" so someone has to truck it out of there too. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gary Hildebrand => Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:05 PM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: Boeing 707 simulator up for auction => => => I wonder if there is an embargo of these to Arab countries????? => => Gary Hildebrand => => Derek Peschel wrote: => > => > This is probably old news for the flight-simulator crowd on the list, => > but I just came across the article in the newspaper. It won't => be cheap, => > partly because it's serial number 0001 (one). => > => > http://www.707sim.com/ => From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Apr 21 13:39:49 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <001f01c1e95b$bb922f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <15554.61494.163028.258630@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001f01c1e95b$bb922f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020421183949.GD16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:41:13AM -0600: > What it clearly says if you don't prune the context is that I'm not alone in > my observation that UNIX stuff costs 10x-100x what the comparable DOS/Windows Apparently it has something to do with the belief that if they sell it to a MS-DOS/Windoze/Macintosh user, they're selling it for use by a single user. If they sell it for use on a system running UNIX, VMS, AOS/VS, etc., then, unless they can limit the number of users that can use it, they make the assumption that multiple users will use it. Apparently some biz'droids appear to think that only large businesses and government agencies, which can typically afford to pay higher prices, use multi-user operating systems; or that's how it appears anyway. Also, perhaps some of the software companies are thinking: "hmmm, they could afford to pay a lot more for that Sun or VAX than a PeeCee, so, we can get more money from them for software to run on that Sun or VAX." -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 13:23:43 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Most of the software in use in the UNIX world is free. Of course > > there ARE commercial packages, but...with very few exceptions, for > > every commercial package there's at least one free one that does the > > job as well or better. It's possible that I'm preaching to the choir > > here, but one of the common misconceptions that really bugs me is the > > notion that "unix == expensive", when in reality it's just the > > opposite. (The same goes for "pc vs. real computers" in the "I use a > > PC because I can't afford a Sun or an Alpha" case...) > > That's not been my experience. In fact, until LINUX, which I don't presently > use either, I had never seen any software of any use at all other than for > software development for UNIX. (This response is going to sound snotty, but I don't mean it that way) This is likely because you've not been looking in the right places, and have been (ahem) solidly mired in the world of commercial proprietary Windows stuff. > The EDA stuff I saw was not terribly useful, > but some folks managed to beat it into submission. I can't forget the There is a shortage in that area, but there are useful tools. I'm using some of them in another window right now...I'm designing a battery charger for a portable microcontroller-based system in one window and have a PCB layout tool ready to roll in another window. And I have the source code for all of it, even the operating system they're running under. And I paid $0 for the software and maybe $150 for the hardware. One can pay through the nose for functionality. One can even pay list price for all of one's hardware and buy it all brandie-new. It's just not very smart. ;) > tradeshow when I ruled out UNIX in my mind. A vendor had > essentially the same software for DOS and UNIX. The UNIX version > cost 50x what the DOS version cost, and the hardware also cost over > 10x the cost of an adequate PC. The two software packages "looked > and felt" as well as worked, indistinguishably once one was inside > the application. Oh, I don't doubt it for a second...but again you're speaking of commercial software. UNIX and commercial software don't get along very well, because commercial software goes very much against the whole UNIX thing. It's like using a PC as a network server...you *can* do it, but it won't work very well, it's not a very good idea, and you'll look like an idiot in the process. ;) > The FPGA/CPLD vendors would like to support everybody who's likely to use > their products. However, support is a problem under UNIX, since there are > numerous versions (I've had several) that lack compatibility. The size of the > market doesn't justify working up a freeware version for every UNIX version > though, so I think they're wise avoiding the expense. LINUX is getting some > support, though. Writing the software portably eliminates that problem completely. The world of Windows software development completely ignores portability. The common software in the UNIX world doesn't have a "version for every UNIX version". That's just not the way it works. > and, for the most part, the freeware is often better than the commercial > products. I've seen little "source-available" freeware that was very good, > however. The LINUX stuff is a good example. Much of the code sits, full of > ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the > original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not > obvious. It's a wonder any of it works, but it seems it does. It's unlikely > there'll ever be UNIX/GNU freeware that's as useable as the comparable > DOS/Windows stuff, though, since what looks to be the case is that nobody > wants to document the UNIX/GNU freeware. Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, Linux isn't UNIX. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, and I respect your experience...please understand that I'm trying to point out that the world of computers is very different from the world of Windows computers...things are, well, just done differently. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 13:24:32 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <017101c1e95e$bceb2810$c3f09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3CC303E0.2778C45B@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > DOS you could bet on 808x. Unix back then meant MIPS, VAX, PDP-11, > SUN/sparc, 68000, Z8000, and a few dozen I likely missed. > Back then too having more than 64kb of memory was real feat. Looking back in hindsite most the unix tools I think from that era were 64k code and 64k data. Something 16 bit computers could handle but not much more. Remember 8086 segment registers.?? The lack of free open source C compiler was problem too. Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 21 13:32:09 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <1019344549.2442.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> from "Alex White" at Apr 21, 2 00:15:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 294 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020421/db049ac6/attachment.ksh From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Apr 21 14:11:58 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20020421191158.GE16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Dave McGuire, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 02:23:43PM -0400: > Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by > script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to > judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of > Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, > Linux isn't UNIX. Which is why I use FreeBSD and Solaris. There also appears to be a certain Linux versus anything else attitude, including Linux vs. other UNIX-like, and UNIX flavors. It wasn't too long ago when most people who wrote free software for *NIX systems made an attempt to make it as portable as possible, so that it could be compiled on most *NIX-like platforms. Many of the Linux hackers, however, it appears, tend to write their software for Linux, and only Linux, systems, ignoring the fact that they wouldn't have their Linux software to play with if other *NIX hackers hadn't written portable code. For example, the Free Software Foundation from which Linux snatched most of it's utility programs, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 21 13:52:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421164305.02891e78@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Apr 21, 2 04:45:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020421/69d4bee5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 21 13:57:49 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Apr 21, 2 08:29:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 943 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020421/1cfe31e2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 21 13:46:35 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: The PERQ factor (was: One-upsmanship) In-Reply-To: <20020421012053.GA16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Apr 20, 2 09:20:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020421/964b8fed/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 14:20:22 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <017101c1e95e$bceb2810$c3f09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000f01c1e969$95474b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:28 PM > > > The whole mid 80s thing with workstations was a disaster in many respects > >Unfortunately, there was little freeware of any use for CP/M just as > there is > >for Windows. The OS was not available in source form, nor was it likely > you'd > > > Actually there was but the problem of incompatable media was crippling > unless > you had the majik 8"sssd box. The realy 80s was an explosive time for > CP/M-80 software if you could get it in a form you could use. Since the only standard format for CP/M was the SSSD (IBM 3740) diskette, I believed then, as I still do, that your computer wasn't a CP/M box unless it had those drives on it. I'm looking to rework a design for the early Ampro Little Board, but with a 1797 instead of the 1770 just to get that. Of course there are still a zillion other formats that it won't deal with properly for a while ... > There was > a large amount stuff published, but typing in 8-10 pages of listing was > often > a good reason not to pursue it. What was also a bonus was the amount of > cheapware (low cost), stuff that was good but, cheap to buy. > There were plenty of development tools and "avant-garde" software for dabblers, but little of any serious interest. It might have changed had it not been for the arrival of the PC. Getting a complete picture of what was "out there" by way of freeware and the like was terribly difficult at the time because there was no generally accessible internet and there were no reasonably priced home computers that were internet capable, even if there had been an accessible 'net. Modems at 1200 baud were still costly, and that was true, even for universities with their gazillions of taxpayer dollars. > > > find source code for any application that was of any use. Back then, if > > you wanted development software tools that worked pretty well, you > > bought Microsoft compilers, assemblers, linkers, etc. Their stuff worked, was > > adequately documented, etc. > > Actually back (pre 83ish) then MS was a language and development > tool house and I'd say a fairly decent one at the time. > > >Nothing lasts forever, though. > > Roger that! > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 14:30:29 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC30190.4836BBDF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001701c1e96a$ff650420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > 17" monitor for < $600. > > I forgot to state CANADIAN :) and that was a ball park figure. > Yes ... I though the exchange rate might be a factor. There's an ad in the local paper here in Denver that some house has got 633MHz Celeron-based boxes with 128MB of RAM, 15GB HDD, 2xUSB, 17" Monitor, etc, including the OS preinstalled, for $339. I think, judging from the picture, they're badgeless eTowers. Windows-capable PC's aren't expensive. > > > Altera and Xilinx have published parallel port JTAG programming interfaces for > > their devices. > You might check with their applications guys. They were the first to publish the JAM standard interface, and Cypress and Xilinx followed suit. > > I have not been able to find Altera's. Xilinx's schematic is in the > documentation as a apendix to the programing manual. > > > If you attach the EPROM/EEPROM that contains the configuration file for an > > requirements for programming them a secret. > > With altera ( the fpga I have ) serial proms are the only easy way to > program the chip. I still need a uP to program the FPGA from standard > memory. > I'll check with a friend of mine who's an Altera agent, but ALTERA certainly has a CPLD solution to that problem. I think the JTAG<=>parallel-port solution is more appealing for someone in your situation, however, since you can use a backup battery to keep it alive and you can reload it from your PC. BTW, if you are designing your own hardware, wouldn't it make sense to do what that microcontroller would do in some sort of hardware? All you have to do is address the standard EPROMS and serialize their output in sync with the FPGA's signals to what it thinks is the serial PROM. > > > Programming most of the logic in 'C' is pretty well accepted practice since > > EPROMS are as big and inexpensive as they are today. Critically timed code > > has to be written in assembler, and people often forget that. Many designers > > compensate for code that is inefficient, slow, and large, by using a > > controller chip that has WAY (20x) more code space and performance than > > needed. The coders will use it all. > > I guess waiting for 4k focal to load on a TTY gives me a bias against > bigger systems. > I can see how you might arrive there. > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 14:34:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <15554.61494.163028.258630@phaduka.neurotica.com> <001f01c1e95b$bb922f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020421183949.GD16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <001f01c1e96b$834b30c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> True, perhaps, but ... see below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:39 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:41:13AM -0600: > > What it clearly says if you don't prune the context is that I'm not alone in > > my observation that UNIX stuff costs 10x-100x what the comparable DOS/Windows > > Apparently it has something to do with the belief that if they sell it > to a MS-DOS/Windoze/Macintosh user, they're selling it for use by a > single user. If they sell it for use on a system running UNIX, VMS, > AOS/VS, etc., then, unless they can limit the number of users that can > use it, That's clearly not rocket science, since that's a feature I've seen on EVERY Unix-based EDA application I've ever used. > they make the assumption that multiple users will use it. > Apparently some biz'droids appear to think that only large businesses > and government agencies, which can typically afford to pay higher > prices, use multi-user operating systems; or that's how it appears > anyway. Also, perhaps some of the software companies are thinking: > "hmmm, they could afford to pay a lot more for that Sun or VAX than a > PeeCee, so, we can get more money from them for software to run on > that Sun or VAX." > Aside from all that, times have changed. Nobody with any sense develops applications aside from what's used in communications for UNIX any more, since nobody wants to use it who's got to learn it first. From rachael_ at gmx.net Sun Apr 21 15:40:11 2002 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: What a weekend! Message-ID: <1126.876T570T13002226rachael_@gmx.net> Hi I have just return home from a Good weekend, bringing the following parts with me home :) VaxStation 4000vlc Commodore Sx64 3x Commodore A2088 pc cards Commdore A2500 memory board for A2000A Commdore A2058 memory board GVP Gforce 040 acc. card for A2000 Supra scsi interface Kupke scsi interface 2x a1200 boards a cdtv mother board 3x Xircom parallel port ethernet adaptors a ASK lcd display for overhead projectors a HP Remote bridge RB 28674B ( have no idee what it is) 6 joysticks and some mouse/joystick auto switches Microsoft windows (c) 1987 Chameleon NFS Xvision X server for windows A isa tvcard a 8ports serial isa card a sbc 286 and a 586 pc and passiv backplate for them Xeno link bbs for amiga Lemmings tribes for amiga virtual carting2 for amiga a com21 cable modem We had only planed for the first two thing, but we found some extras. Atlast I have my first Vax, but now I have so many other new things that I wont have time to play with it the first couple of weeks. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: Rachael_@gmx.net url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 14:55:12 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e946$66102080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > One other thing ... It's easy to get "wrapped around the axle" with details > about what works better than what, etc. Fact is ... the purpose of a network > is to make multiple computers appear to you, the sum of all the end-users, > since it's YOUR home computing facility, as one useful tool. I've seen more > than one guy move from three boxes to each of which he could type a command > and have a response in a couple of seconds, to a networked environment where > he could sit at one station and accomplish the same thing, but not without a > minute or two of typing. Some guys see this as an improvement. Great minds must think alike. I was rereading the other posts on the subject and thinking that I omitted any mention of a very critical component of my network; my KVM. I have an old Aten 8-port KVM to which I connect my firewall, my main desktop box, and usually 2 or 3 study-environment machines, plus whatever PCs I'm working on at the time. I just wish I could afford one of the blade-style units, that will connect to PC, Mac, Sun, RS6k, etc, based on which cards you install in the KVM. Way into 4-figure prices, though. Sometimes immediate console access is the only way to fly. Doc P.S.- More inline with the thread and Dick's comments - I really _like_ LDAP. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 15:15:01 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com><20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org><001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com><20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org><15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com><3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca><001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com><000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <002501c1e971$3801c1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Most of the software in use in the UNIX world is free. Of course > > > there ARE commercial packages, but...with very few exceptions, for > > > every commercial package there's at least one free one that does the > > > job as well or better. It's possible that I'm preaching to the choir > > > here, but one of the common misconceptions that really bugs me is the > > > notion that "unix == expensive", when in reality it's just the > > > opposite. (The same goes for "pc vs. real computers" in the "I use a > > > PC because I can't afford a Sun or an Alpha" case...) > > > > That's not been my experience. In fact, until LINUX, which I don't presently > > use either, I had never seen any software of any use at all other than for > > software development for UNIX. > > (This response is going to sound snotty, but I don't mean it that way) > This is likely because you've not been looking in the right places, > and have been (ahem) solidly mired in the world of commercial > proprietary Windows stuff. > Well, when I want groceries, I go to the grocery store, and when I want computer hardware I go to the computer store ... When I want software to do what I want my computer to do, I have to go where they sell it. I can't find EDA tools at the hardware store, and a Modula2 compiler won't route my PCB's. EMACS isn't particularly useful tool for everyday word-processing, either, though it certainly can do it. I have a "friendlified" EMACS (really a DOS-based EMACS-in-a-shell) that works pretty well for lots of things for which one normally would have used EMACS for want of another capable tool. Nowadays, I can do all that simple stuff in WORD, like hundreds of millions of others. > > > The EDA stuff I saw was not terribly useful, > > but some folks managed to beat it into submission. I can't forget the > > There is a shortage in that area, but there are useful tools. I'm > using some of them in another window right now...I'm designing a > battery charger for a portable microcontroller-based system in one > window and have a PCB layout tool ready to roll in another window. > And I have the source code for all of it, even the operating system > they're running under. And I paid $0 for the software and maybe $150 > for the hardware. > > One can pay through the nose for functionality. One can even pay list > price for all of one's hardware and buy it all brandie-new. It's just > not very smart. ;) > I've gotten software gratis all my life. Even the Microsoft products I have were all originally provided, gratis, from Microsoft. I've never been offered a single bit of UNIX software, ever, by any Unix software vendor. They even charge for providing stuff that they claim to give you for free, and then, when it doesn't work as advertised, which it seldom does if it works at all, they charge you to make it work, which often costs plenty and results in nothing. > > > tradeshow when I ruled out UNIX in my mind. A vendor had > > essentially the same software for DOS and UNIX. The UNIX version > > cost 50x what the DOS version cost, and the hardware also cost over > > 10x the cost of an adequate PC. The two software packages "looked > > and felt" as well as worked, indistinguishably once one was inside > > the application. > > Oh, I don't doubt it for a second...but again you're speaking of > commercial software. UNIX and commercial software don't get along > very well, because commercial software goes very much against the > whole UNIX thing. It's like using a PC as a network server...you > *can* do it, but it won't work very well, it's not a very good idea, > and you'll look like an idiot in the process. ;) > I'm not sure what you mean by "network server." I've used a PC as a server right here in the house for over a decade. There's not one non-PC machine in my ISP POP either. There's a mix of OS' in- cluding LINUX and UNIX, but it's the most generally provisioned "small" ISP in the area and has a reputation for fewer breakdowns and fewer busy signals on dialups than any other ISP, including the muti-billion-dollar guys like AOL, MSN, and Qwest. > > > The FPGA/CPLD vendors would like to support everybody who's likely to use > > their products. However, support is a problem under UNIX, since there are > > numerous versions (I've had several) that lack compatibility. The size of the > > market doesn't justify working up a freeware version for every UNIX version > > though, so I think they're wise avoiding the expense. LINUX is getting some > > support, though. > > Writing the software portably eliminates that problem completely. > The world of Windows software development completely ignores > portability. The common software in the UNIX world doesn't have a > "version for every UNIX version". That's just not the way it works. > The first thing I'd ask about "writing the software portably" would be, "Who's going to do that, and whom are we serving by doing that?" The few dozen folks in my market area, worldwide, who'd prefer to use UNIX might like it, but would they send any dough our way? Probably not ... Secondly, I have serious doubts that there's a way to write software that is both portable and fully functional in all cases. There are limitations, I'm sure, and the devil's in the details. > > > and, for the most part, the freeware is often better than the commercial > > products. I've seen little "source-available" freeware that was very good, > > however. The LINUX stuff is a good example. Much of the code sits, full of > > ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the > > original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not > > obvious. It's a wonder any of it works, but it seems it does. It's unlikely > > there'll ever be UNIX/GNU freeware that's as useable as the comparable > > DOS/Windows stuff, though, since what looks to be the case is that nobody > > wants to document the UNIX/GNU freeware. > > Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by > script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to > judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of > Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, > Linux isn't UNIX. > That's probably true, but it's the only realistically inexpensive route into the UNIX world for one starting out or starting over. Last time I checked, the add-on required to extend the file system for UNIXWARE (? maybe one of the others) to larger than 2GB cost $2K per instance. > > I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, and I respect your > experience...please understand that I'm trying to point out that the > world of computers is very different from the world of Windows > computers...things are, well, just done differently. > Different, is certainly the case. Better, well, the market thinks otherwise. > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 15:17:33 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > A $2000 computer, unless it's a notebook, is a pretty fancy system. I saw an > ad on the TV yesterday from a local dealer for a complete Pentium box at just > under a GHz with a large (40GB) HDD, plenty of RAM, USB, modem, ethernet, and > 17" monitor for < $600. If you're saying that you'd _buy_ that setup, please send me you're snail-mail address off-list. I'd really like to establish a fee-based support contract. :) Really high-end PC hardware isn't much better than midrange, but low-end hardware is a verifiable black hole. To wit, it is guaranteed to suck. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 15:20:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421191158.GE16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <002f01c1e971$faa247c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A lot of these attitudes are held by folks lacking in a wide range of experience. Once you've done the same things on a number of different systems, you begin to see that it's easier to use the combination of hardware and software that works rather trying to force a hardware/software combination to do what it really doesnt' want to do. Some may find this distasteful, but it's more effective, sometimes, to hold your nose and plow ahead rather than trying to dance around the obstacles. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Quothe Dave McGuire, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 02:23:43PM -0400: > > Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by > > script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to > > judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of > > Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, > > Linux isn't UNIX. > > Which is why I use FreeBSD and Solaris. There also appears to be a > certain Linux versus anything else attitude, including Linux vs. other > UNIX-like, and UNIX flavors. It wasn't too long ago when most people > who wrote free software for *NIX systems made an attempt to make it as > portable as possible, so that it could be compiled on most *NIX-like > platforms. Many of the Linux hackers, however, it appears, tend to > write their software for Linux, and only Linux, systems, ignoring the > fact that they wouldn't have their Linux software to play with if > other *NIX hackers hadn't written portable code. For example, the > Free Software Foundation from which Linux snatched most of it's > utility programs, etc. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 15:36:53 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020421183949.GD16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 21 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:41:13AM -0600: > > What it clearly says if you don't prune the context is that I'm not alone in > > my observation that UNIX stuff costs 10x-100x what the comparable DOS/Windows > > Apparently it has something to do with the belief that if they sell it > to a MS-DOS/Windoze/Macintosh user, they're selling it for use by a > single user. If they sell it for use on a system running UNIX, VMS, > AOS/VS, etc., then, unless they can limit the number of users that can > use it, they make the assumption that multiple users will use it. Another major price consideration is probably the tolerance levels of the respective admins/users. Unix admins tend to want bugs fixed. Now. Windows users/admins, even at enterprise levels, are much more likely to accept the "We'll fix that in the next version" solution. Even knowing that it's really "We'll fix that in the next version and charge you for it." Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 15:47:22 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020421191158.GE16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 21 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > Quothe Dave McGuire, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 02:23:43PM -0400: > > Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by > > script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to > > judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of > > Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, > > Linux isn't UNIX. > > Which is why I use FreeBSD and Solaris. There also appears to be a > certain Linux versus anything else attitude, including Linux vs. other > UNIX-like, and UNIX flavors. Nah, most of us are code sluts. We run whatever works best on a given platform. And if you want to see real OS attitude, put a Solaris admin across the table from an AIX admin. Then step way back. Doc From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 21 15:54:24 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Network Finds Message-ID: <012c01c1e976$b8a63e80$66000240@default> I hope to start hooking up a mix of hardware very soon and have over the last week picked up a Linksys Fast Ethernet 5-Port Workgroup Hub model FEHUB05W ($2.92), a Linksys EtherFast cable/DSL Router model BEFSR41 ($20), and a Katron 10BASE-T Ethernet hub 8 Plus model Hub/8 ($10) and now have tofigure which to use? From blacklord at telstra.com Sun Apr 21 16:28:15 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: OT: Writing floppies on PC; Was Re: Guys take a look Message-ID: <2f48734a25.34a252f487@bigpond.com> Hi Zane, > V1.3 to > V3.0, and one thing I always loved was how I could be formatting > both 3.5" > and 5.25" floppies while I was editing a document and dialed into > a BBS. I can still remember formatting 4 floppies at once on my Amiga 1000, slight slowdown, but not too bad :-) cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 16:34:48 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> <000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> <002501c1e971$3801c1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.12408.358167.384883@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, when I want groceries, I go to the grocery store, and when I want > computer hardware I go to the computer store ... When I want software to do > what I want my computer to do, I have to go where they sell it. ...and if you take that route, you'll get what you're looking for. Commercial software. If you're fine with that, more power to you. > EMACS isn't particularly useful tool for everyday word-processing, either, > though it certainly can do it. I have a "friendlified" EMACS (really a > DOS-based EMACS-in-a-shell) that works pretty well for lots of things for > which one normally would have used EMACS for want of another capable tool. > Nowadays, I can do all that simple stuff in WORD, like hundreds of millions of > others. Of course Emacs isn't good at word processing, because it's a text editor. It's also not very good at schematic capture, for the same reason. ;) > I've gotten software gratis all my life. Even the Microsoft products I have > were all originally provided, gratis, from Microsoft. I've never been offered > a single bit of UNIX software, ever, by any Unix software vendor. They even > charge for providing stuff that they claim to give you for free, and then, > when it doesn't work as advertised, which it seldom does if it works at all, > they charge you to make it work, which often costs plenty and results in > nothing. You're missing the whole point. "UNIX software vendor". Mainstream software in the UNIX world is FREE. It's the commercial stuff that's the oddball in this world. > I'm not sure what you mean by "network server." I've used a PC I mean it in the most general of ways. > as a server right here in the house for over a decade. There's not You trust your data to a PC? Well, that's your risk, not mine. ;) > one non-PC machine in my ISP POP either. There's a mix of OS' in- > cluding LINUX and UNIX, but it's the most generally provisioned > "small" ISP in the area and has a reputation for fewer breakdowns > and fewer busy signals on dialups than any other ISP, including the > muti-billion-dollar guys like AOL, MSN, and Qwest. I'd say that's pretty unusual...and having been in the thick of the ISP industry from its beginning, I feel I can say that with some authority. More power to them, even if they do make...questionable choices. And before you take exception to that...if I were to describe to you a commercial construction firm that made nice buildings and had a good reputation, but they used Volkswagen Beetles to haul their lumber and cinderblocks and radio-controlled tanks to do their welding and riveting, wouldn't you have something to say about that? > The first thing I'd ask about "writing the software portably" would be, > "Who's going to do that, and whom are we serving by doing that?" > The few dozen folks in my market area, worldwide, who'd prefer to > use UNIX might like it, but would they send any dough our way? > Probably not ... Is your work THAT unusual? I'm now VERY curious to know what you do. EVERYONE I know personally who does electronic design work (save for maybe two) uses some UNIX variant to do it, except for FPGA stuff we discussed earlier. That constitutes about twenty people. I think this very clearly proves the point that we tend to see the stuff in "our own worlds" very clearly, but the stuff *outside* our own areas of experience seem very distant or even nonexistant. In my world, Winodws and PeeCee hardware is weird, overpriced, proprietary stuff that's difficult to find and not very widely used. Everyone...and I mean EVERYONE in my peer group runs UNIX of one sort or another. A few have these esoteric Windows boxes for playing video games, but not many. That said, I respect the fact that your experience differs from mine, and that you have a different point of view...and because of this, I read your comments with interest, and learn from them. > Secondly, I have serious doubts that there's a way to write software > that is both portable and fully functional in all cases. There are > limitations, I'm sure, and the devil's in the details. I've done it for twenty years. Most of the stuff I've written runs on 20+ different operating systems...it doesn't run under Windows, but that's irrelevant, because it's one proprietary, non-standards-compliant platform that most people in my industry don't use. (See comments about "our own worlds" above) > > Linux is a mess no matter how you slice it, mostly thrown together by > > script kiddies with no experience whatsoever...it's a bad idea to > > judge the entire UNIX world on the cleanliness (or lack thereof) of > > Linux, because as even the Linux people are fond of pointing out, > > Linux isn't UNIX. > > > That's probably true, but it's the only realistically inexpensive route > into the UNIX world for one starting out or starting over. NetBSD/FreeBSD/OpenBSD, or about twenty different packaged distributions ("distros" for the kiddies) of Linux. All free, most of mission-critical quality. > Last time I checked, the add-on required to extend the file system > for UNIXWARE (? maybe one of the others) to larger than 2GB cost > $2K per instance. ...and the people who buy UNIXWARE get what they deserve...screwed. Support for >2GB filesystems has been standard equipment in modern free operating systems for something like eight years. What is their excuse? > > I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, and I respect your > > experience...please understand that I'm trying to point out that the > > world of computers is very different from the world of Windows > > computers...things are, well, just done differently. > > Different, is certainly the case. Better, well, the market thinks otherwise. Do you honestly think software development for pure profit, where quality suffers to enhance margins, bugs rarely get fixed, and developments in technology are largely ignored, where programmers write the bare minimum to get their paychecks and leave by 5pm, is "better" just because the suits of the world buy anything that Microsoft tries to sell them? "Better" is paying through the nose for products versus getting better stuff for free? I'll tell you what...YOU pay attention to the "market" and do what the suits tell you to do...I have work to do, and I'm going to use the best tools available...regardless of what the "market" thinks I should use. If any computer on your home network has EVER crashed, lost data, munged something, or behaved unpredictably for anything other than an age- or ac-power-related hardware failure, then my point has already been made for me. And I really, truly hope I've misinterpreted you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Apr 21 16:55:09 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15554.60091.238825.129956@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000301c1e97f$34aa9f00$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Most of the software in use in the UNIX world is free. Of course > there ARE commercial packages, but...with very few exceptions, for > every commercial package there's at least one free one that does the > job as well or better. ... Hmmm, OK, Apache is free and "free"; but the main uses for Unix in large organisations are products like Oracle and SAP. Oracle may (nowadays) be effectively free for single user purposes, but it very definitely is not for large installations. I don't think I've heard of one large organisation using a database other than Oracle, MS SQL server, or the IBM product. SAP makes Oracle look inexpensive. The _training_ costs alone for these products typically approach five figures. (and that is just the DBA/application programmer ... sites needing the advanced training have even greater expenditure) Andy From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 17:06:25 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000d01c1e958$79e48da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 2002 11:17:54 AM Message-ID: <200204212206.SAA07934@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > That's not been my experience. In fact, until LINUX, which I don't presently > use either, I had never seen any software of any use at all other than for > software development for UNIX. The EDA stuff I saw was not terribly useful, > but some folks managed to beat it into submission. I can't forget the > tradeshow when I ruled out UNIX in my mind. A vendor had essentially the same > software for DOS and UNIX. The UNIX version cost 50x what the DOS version > cost, and the hardware also cost over 10x the cost of an adequate PC. The two > software packages "looked and felt" as well as worked, indistinguishably once > one was inside the application. I did some work for a company who's only product was originally written under MS-DOS, and I was hired to help with a UNIX port of the product. They were planning on selling the UNIX version for about 10 times the MS-DOS version even when (after the port) the source code is the same (except for a few portions that hit hardware and was fairly isolated). They even refused to sell a Linux version (even though that's the system they used for the initial port) because they were afraid of not being able to sell it at 10 times the cost. The reason for the disparity? Because UNIX customers are accustomed (or were, maybe still are to a degree) to paying such prices and would view a product that was too cheap as not being good enough. And they wanted to offset the higher support costs that might come with the UNIX version. They refused a Linux version for as long as they could, because they knew they could not sell their product at their inflated price for Linux (as most of their customer for the Linux version would be customers from their MS-DOS version moving over to Linux). Another company I did work for (helping with the UNIX port of their primarily Windows product) sold the same product, from Windows at about $1,000 a copy, to a Stratus mainframe for $50,000 a copy. Same product. Same code base (for the most part). Why? Because they could. And the $50,000 version fit on a single floppy. > and, for the most part, the freeware is often better than the commercial > products. I've seen little "source-available" freeware that was very good, > however. The LINUX stuff is a good example. Much of the code sits, full of > ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the > original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not > obvious. It's a wonder any of it works, but it seems it does. It's unlikely > there'll ever be UNIX/GNU freeware that's as useable as the comparable > DOS/Windows stuff, though, since what looks to be the case is that nobody > wants to document the UNIX/GNU freeware. So you are assuming that commercial code is somehow better than UNIX/GNU code? Having worked at a few commercial software companies (except for IBM, always hired to port code from MS-DOS/Windows to Unix) I can tell you that the commercial code is full of ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments (when they actually exist---the first company I mentioned above had, as part of their coding standards, mandated that no comments be added to the code) relevant only to the original code. At the second company I mentioned, the core of the product was written and maintained by *one guy* and only *one guy* because no one else in the company could understand the code. I saw the code in question and yes, I could see why no one else wanted to touch this code. So code quality is just as bad (or worse) in commercial products. -spc (Was horrified at how bad commercial code is ... ) From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 17:32:52 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <017101c1e95e$bceb2810$c3f09a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Apr 21, 2002 01:59:26 PM Message-ID: <200204212232.SAA07958@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ajp166 once stated: > > The whole mid 80s thing with workstations was a disaster in many respects as > everyone was trying to put more processor in a box and unix was the OS of > choice as it was easily ported and offered most of the higher level OS > functions that stuff like DOS was clueless about. The problem was unix was > easily ported though it didn't make for portable apps, usually due to > underlying hardware or even the basic processor. In that respect CP/M and > DOS made it easier as at least if it was CP/M-80 you knew your base cpu was > 8080/z80 and if it was DOS you could bet on 808x. Unix back then meant > MIPS, VAX, PDP-11, SUN/sparc, 68000, Z8000, and a few dozen I likely missed. That doesn't make sense. UNIX you state as being easily ported, even though as a kernel it has to hit the hardware pretty hard, yet you state applications as not being portable at all, because of the underlying hardware and processor (which the application shouldn't care about). If anything, I would think the opposite would be true. Now, speaking as a programmer who's done cross platform programs, I've come to the conclusion that writing portable software isn't difficult and with enough experience it becomes quite easy in fact. It's programmers that make unwarrented assumptions about their code or platform that make for unportable applications. Granted, on the 8-bit systems you often times had to code in Assembly, both for speed and size reasons (and because compilers for such systems weren't good enough) but when you get to UNIX the whole point was to avoid assembly in the first place [1]. Therefore, you are writing in a higher level, more portable language and then it becomes possible to write code that will run across platforms. Heck, I've written a program that has compiled across several different UNIX platforms (SGI, Linux on the x86, Linux on the DEC Alpha, OpenBSD, FreeBSD) without problems [2] and you'll notice that there is at least one 64-bit architecture listed there. The same code was successfully compiled (with one line of code change, plus a few other lines to get the correct header files loaded) under Microsoft Windows. Okay, it may not have been optimum code under Windows, but it still ran with minimum of changes or fuss. -spc (Whose first major program in C I ported (with real minimal changes) between OS/2, MS-DOS, AmigaOS and UNIX ... ) [1] Unless speed was critical (remember, I'm talking about applications under UNIX, which shouldn't hit the hardware at all), at which point you find the bottle neck, and rewrite that portion in assembly, and keep the original C around in case you have to port (or someone has to port) the code to a new chip. The rest of the application can remain in C. [2] Okay, one problem---the DEC Alpha port crashed, but it was tracked down to a bug in the C library call memchr(). From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 17:42:28 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15555.943.278685.103263@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 21, 2002 02:23:43 PM Message-ID: <200204212242.SAA07985@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The FPGA/CPLD vendors would like to support everybody who's likely to use > > their products. However, support is a problem under UNIX, since there are > > numerous versions (I've had several) that lack compatibility. The size of the > > market doesn't justify working up a freeware version for every UNIX version > > though, so I think they're wise avoiding the expense. LINUX is getting some > > support, though. > > Writing the software portably eliminates that problem completely. > The world of Windows software development completely ignores > portability. The common software in the UNIX world doesn't have a > "version for every UNIX version". That's just not the way it works. Well ... A few years ago I worked at a company helping to port their application to UNIX (various flavors thereof). And yes, UNIX is UNIX is UNIX, except for certain areas, like file locking (three incompatible methods for locking files) and threading (even worse than file locking). If I remember correctly, Solaris supports both Solaris threads and pthreads [1], AIX supported a slightly different version of pthreads, HP-UX had their own version of threads, and Linux has it's own version of threads [2] as well as a slightly different version of pthreads. You can do threading under UNIX (and Windows, which is what the application was written for) but you end up making an interface the application calls which hides the details of the actual threading mechanism used. It comes down to experience and knowing what is and isn't going to be portable and working your way around those, which is a skill that most programmers don't have. -spc (Well aware of what's involved in writing portable code) [1] pthreads is the POSIX standard for threading and does it suck. [2] Which is actually much better than pthreads, and done in a more UNIXy way. Unfortunately, pthreads is POSIX, which sucks. From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 21 17:59:30 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15555.12408.358167.384883@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > And before you take exception to that...if I were to describe to you > a commercial construction firm that made nice buildings and had a good > reputation, but they used Volkswagen Beetles to haul their lumber and > cinderblocks and radio-controlled tanks to do their welding and > riveting, wouldn't you have something to say about that? If it works, I wouldn't say anything about it. Except maybe, "Wow! Holy crap! How did they *do* that!?" > > Secondly, I have serious doubts that there's a way to write software > > that is both portable and fully functional in all cases. There are > > limitations, I'm sure, and the devil's in the details. > > I've done it for twenty years. Most of the stuff I've written runs > on 20+ different operating systems...it doesn't run under Windows, but > that's irrelevant, because it's one proprietary, non-standards- > compliant platform that most people in my industry don't use. (See > comments about "our own worlds" above) I'll bet your software will compile and run fine under Windows using Cygnus's stuff. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 18:09:13 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Sridhar the POWERful) References: <15555.12408.358167.384883@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15555.18073.811629.394926@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > I've done it for twenty years. Most of the stuff I've written runs > > on 20+ different operating systems...it doesn't run under Windows, but > > that's irrelevant, because it's one proprietary, non-standards- > > compliant platform that most people in my industry don't use. (See > > comments about "our own worlds" above) > > I'll bet your software will compile and run fine under Windows using > Cygnus's stuff. This is likely...it's an impressive piece of work. Though I can't help but wonder...why not just use a real OS in the first place? It's treating the symptom, not the problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 18:19:36 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204212206.SAA07934@conman.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > So you are assuming that commercial code is somehow better than UNIX/GNU > code? Having worked at a few commercial software companies (except for IBM, > always hired to port code from MS-DOS/Windows to Unix) I can tell you that > the commercial code is full of ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, > among comments (when they actually exist---the first company I mentioned > above had, as part of their coding standards, mandated that no comments be > added to the code) relevant only to the original code. At the second > company I mentioned, the core of the product was written and maintained by > *one guy* and only *one guy* because no one else in the company could > understand the code. I saw the code in question and yes, I could see why no > one else wanted to touch this code. So code quality is just as bad (or > worse) in commercial products. A fairly trivial case in point - IBM's 24-bit MCA graphics adapter - the "Sabine" card set. Several RS/6000 developers that I know claim that the guy (singular) who developed it designed a prototype, wrote a driver, and redesigned the hardware to compensate for limitations in his code. Mark swears there were several cycles of that. The result was a piece of hardware and its driver that couldn't be ported even to the next version of AIX. Doc From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun Apr 21 18:57:11 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: What a weekend! In-Reply-To: <1126.876T570T13002226rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421194923.00a2e830@sokieserv.dhs.org> Dude, what are you smoking? a COM21 Cable Modem is like the lowest end I have seen, I know cuz I have and still use one. If it wasn't for the fact that I am a cheap bastard, I'd go out and get a real one. My Com21 limits my bandwidth, drops the connection and has high latency. I had proved it wasn't the lines by having a friend come over with his modem and plug it in (Toshiba 1100u series - and yes, where i am, the provider doesn't get particular about what modem is on there). The Xircom parallel to Ethernet ports are decent though, never heard of those SCSI's, the 8 port serial ISA card is probably something like a DigiBoard or IBM equivalent - expensive and nice, really nice in linux. Congrats on the vax and commodore though, that's pretty cool. -John At 04:40 PM 4/21/02, you wrote: >Hi > >I have just return home from a Good weekend, bringing the following >parts with me home :) > >VaxStation 4000vlc >Commodore Sx64 >3x Commodore A2088 pc cards >Commdore A2500 memory board for A2000A >Commdore A2058 memory board >GVP Gforce 040 acc. card for A2000 >Supra scsi interface >Kupke scsi interface >2x a1200 boards >a cdtv mother board >3x Xircom parallel port ethernet adaptors >a ASK lcd display for overhead projectors >a HP Remote bridge RB 28674B ( have no idee what it is) >6 joysticks and some mouse/joystick auto switches >Microsoft windows (c) 1987 >Chameleon NFS >Xvision X server for windows >A isa tvcard >a 8ports serial isa card >a sbc 286 and a 586 pc and passiv backplate for them >Xeno link bbs for amiga >Lemmings tribes for amiga >virtual carting2 for amiga >a com21 cable modem > >We had only planed for the first two thing, but we found some >extras. Atlast I have my first Vax, but now I have so many other >new things that I wont have time to play with it the first couple >of weeks. > >Regards Jacob Dahl Pind >-- > CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector > Email: Rachael_@gmx.net > url: http://rachael.dyndns.org ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 19:17:34 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force myself to use Netscape, but I really don't want to. Dick see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > A $2000 computer, unless it's a notebook, is a pretty fancy system. I saw an > > for < $600. > > If you're saying that you'd _buy_ that setup, please send me you're > snail-mail address off-list. I'd really like to establish a fee-based > support contract. :) I doubt anyone willing to make the inane comments you've made so far could provide any sort of support. > Really high-end PC hardware isn't much better than midrange, but > low-end hardware is a verifiable black hole. To wit, it is guaranteed > to suck. > Low-end would cost on the order of $150. You'd starve on our service work. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 19:24:51 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204212206.SAA07934@conman.org> Message-ID: <002401c1e994$209127e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I wouldn't say it's better, but (1) it's better documented, and (2) I don't have to look at the code. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 4:06 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > That's not been my experience. In fact, until LINUX, which I don't presently > > use either, I had never seen any software of any use at all other than for > > software development for UNIX. The EDA stuff I saw was not terribly useful, > > but some folks managed to beat it into submission. I can't forget the > > tradeshow when I ruled out UNIX in my mind. A vendor had essentially the same > > software for DOS and UNIX. The UNIX version cost 50x what the DOS version > > cost, and the hardware also cost over 10x the cost of an adequate PC. The two > > software packages "looked and felt" as well as worked, indistinguishably once > > one was inside the application. > > I did some work for a company who's only product was originally written > under MS-DOS, and I was hired to help with a UNIX port of the product. They > were planning on selling the UNIX version for about 10 times the MS-DOS > version even when (after the port) the source code is the same (except for a > few portions that hit hardware and was fairly isolated). They even refused > to sell a Linux version (even though that's the system they used for the > initial port) because they were afraid of not being able to sell it at 10 > times the cost. > > The reason for the disparity? Because UNIX customers are accustomed (or > were, maybe still are to a degree) to paying such prices and would view a > product that was too cheap as not being good enough. And they wanted to > offset the higher support costs that might come with the UNIX version. They > refused a Linux version for as long as they could, because they knew they > could not sell their product at their inflated price for Linux (as most of > their customer for the Linux version would be customers from their MS-DOS > version moving over to Linux). > > Another company I did work for (helping with the UNIX port of their > primarily Windows product) sold the same product, from Windows at about > $1,000 a copy, to a Stratus mainframe for $50,000 a copy. Same product. > Same code base (for the most part). Why? Because they could. And the > $50,000 version fit on a single floppy. > > > and, for the most part, the freeware is often better than the commercial > > products. I've seen little "source-available" freeware that was very good, > > however. The LINUX stuff is a good example. Much of the code sits, full of > > ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the > > original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not > > obvious. It's a wonder any of it works, but it seems it does. It's unlikely > > there'll ever be UNIX/GNU freeware that's as useable as the comparable > > DOS/Windows stuff, though, since what looks to be the case is that nobody > > wants to document the UNIX/GNU freeware. > > So you are assuming that commercial code is somehow better than UNIX/GNU > code? Having worked at a few commercial software companies (except for IBM, > always hired to port code from MS-DOS/Windows to Unix) I can tell you that > the commercial code is full of ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, > among comments (when they actually exist---the first company I mentioned > above had, as part of their coding standards, mandated that no comments be > added to the code) relevant only to the original code. At the second > company I mentioned, the core of the product was written and maintained by > *one guy* and only *one guy* because no one else in the company could > understand the code. I saw the code in question and yes, I could see why no > one else wanted to touch this code. So code quality is just as bad (or > worse) in commercial products. > > -spc (Was horrified at how bad commercial code is ... ) > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 19:32:01 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204212232.SAA07958@conman.org> Message-ID: <002e01c1e995$20625a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A lot depends on what you mean by "cross-platform-programming." See below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great ajp166 once stated: > > > > The whole mid 80s thing with workstations was a disaster in many respects as > > everyone was trying to put more processor in a box and unix was the OS of > > choice as it was easily ported and offered most of the higher level OS > > functions that stuff like DOS was clueless about. The problem was unix was > > easily ported though it didn't make for portable apps, usually due to > > underlying hardware or even the basic processor. In that respect CP/M and > > DOS made it easier as at least if it was CP/M-80 you knew your base cpu was > > 8080/z80 and if it was DOS you could bet on 808x. Unix back then meant > > MIPS, VAX, PDP-11, SUN/sparc, 68000, Z8000, and a few dozen I likely missed. > Some people believe cross-platform programming means using the resources common to all the platoforms. That produces portability at the expense of efficiency. If you're willing to tolerate that, well, OK. > > That doesn't make sense. UNIX you state as being easily ported, even > though as a kernel it has to hit the hardware pretty hard, yet you state > applications as not being portable at all, because of the underlying > hardware and processor (which the application shouldn't care about). If > anything, I would think the opposite would be true. > > Now, speaking as a programmer who's done cross platform programs, I've > come to the conclusion that writing portable software isn't difficult and > with enough experience it becomes quite easy in fact. It's programmers that > make unwarrented assumptions about their code or platform that make for > unportable applications. > > Granted, on the 8-bit systems you often times had to code in Assembly, > both for speed and size reasons (and because compilers for such systems > weren't good enough) but when you get to UNIX the whole point was to avoid > assembly in the first place [1]. Therefore, you are writing in a higher > level, more portable language and then it becomes possible to write code > that will run across platforms. Heck, I've written a program that has > compiled across several different UNIX platforms (SGI, Linux on the x86, > Linux on the DEC Alpha, OpenBSD, FreeBSD) without problems [2] and you'll > notice that there is at least one 64-bit architecture listed there. The > same code was successfully compiled (with one line of code change, plus a > few other lines to get the correct header files loaded) under Microsoft > Windows. Okay, it may not have been optimum code under Windows, but it > still ran with minimum of changes or fuss. > This is true if you've got a set of software tools that really exploits the hardware effectively. Few do that. The result may be that you have a bit of software that works well on one platform but not so well on the others, and perhaps very badly on one or two. > > -spc (Whose first major program in C I ported (with real minimal changes) > between OS/2, MS-DOS, AmigaOS and UNIX ... ) > > [1] Unless speed was critical (remember, I'm talking about applications > under UNIX, which shouldn't hit the hardware at all), at which point > you find the bottle neck, and rewrite that portion in assembly, and > keep the original C around in case you have to port (or someone has > to port) the code to a new chip. The rest of the application can > remain in C. > > [2] Okay, one problem---the DEC Alpha port crashed, but it was tracked > down to a bug in the C library call memchr(). > My neighbor just scrapped two brand-new Alpha stations because they wouldn't run the 64-bit UNIX version the vendor, now history, produced them for. He couldn't, after several months of effort even get any one to buy the boxes for the box/PSU combo. He put them in the dumpster, still in their plastic wrap. I wish he'd offered me the enclosures with the PSU's ... > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 19:39:42 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the reserve price. A low number by my estimation, but respectable considering the overall circumstances. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Apr 21 19:57:46 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for >all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already >broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, >etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use >to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force myself to use Netscape, >but I really don't want to. Not comparing them to today's Windows machines but to the PC offerings out during the same timeframe, I doubt you really could've found a PC comparable in capabilities to Unix workstations such as the SGI machines, for running applications such as Lightwave 3D, or the NeXT machines, for such things as Mathmatica and other scientific-type apps. The hardware on PC's has only in the last few years caught up to the various workstations in video capabilities and the CPU's have yet to come near the MIPS and DEC Alpha processors except in terms of raw clockspeed. Of course, you paid for machines of this level, but you got a lot more as well. With Mac OS X, more new machines are shipping with a UNIX derived OS than ever before. With so many home machines being networked, a secure OS is becoming a must....something Windows has shown time and again to fall short on. Plus, I'd use the freely downloadable and time-proven Apache webserver over the similar NT/2000 offerings any day given it's better track record and wider installed base. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 21 20:09:25 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 21, 2 06:17:34 pm" Message-ID: <200204220109.SAA13140@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for > all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already > broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use > to me that runs under UNIX. I'm sorry to hear you have no use for the probable majority of the servers you access. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- From philip at awale.qc.ca Sun Apr 21 20:10:35 2002 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Network Finds In-Reply-To: <012c01c1e976$b8a63e80$66000240@default> Message-ID: On 21-Apr-2002 John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I hope to start hooking up a mix of hardware very soon and have over the > last week picked up a Linksys Fast Ethernet 5-Port Workgroup Hub model > FEHUB05W ($2.92), a Linksys EtherFast cable/DSL Router model BEFSR41 > ($20), and a Katron 10BASE-T Ethernet hub 8 Plus model Hub/8 ($10) and > now have tofigure which to use? The one that makes the least noise and has the most blinkenlights. -Philip From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 21 20:26:52 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Not comparing them to today's Windows machines but to the PC > offerings out during the same timeframe, I doubt you really could've > found a PC comparable in capabilities to Unix workstations such as the > SGI machines, for running applications such as Lightwave 3D, or the > NeXT machines, for such things as Mathmatica and other scientific-type > apps. The hardware on PC's has only in the last few years caught up > to the various workstations in video capabilities and the CPU's have > yet to come near the MIPS and DEC Alpha processors except in terms of > raw clockspeed. Of course, you paid for machines of this level, but > you got a lot more as well. Raw clockspeed? Irrelevant. Get yourself an RS/6000. My RS/6000 397 at 160 MHz soundly trounces my 850 MHz PC. Peace... Sridhar From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Sun Apr 21 20:31:19 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:54 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: <200204202028.g3KKSL303396@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 19 Apr, cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > > > A quick question was ULTRIX ever avalible for the uVAX 3100/80? > No. > > > (there seems to be a version of linux but it seems > > to be quite imature.) > .... and it ever will be. > > > OpenBSD is great, still it doesn't have all that I want, but has a lot > > more than NetBSD. > This is not a bug, it is a feature. ;-) > NetBSD is minimalistic and this is one reason why I like it. You just > add what you need via pkgsrc and you get a system that has exactely > what you want, and nothing more. It is most bloat less. > > If you wane try NetBSD again, please use the ELF snapshot of -current. > Many improvements, but it needs some more testers... > I may have to do so (re NetBSD). I am just playing round with *BSD on this machine at the moment, and will probably settle on one or the other.. Though I like OpenBSD due to all of the crypto stuff, and it saves me having to compile it all, and it still isn't bloated unlike linux can be. BTW quick question. the machine came with an external scsi expansion with two drives, one of the drives refuses to power up properly, but that is dependent on where it is sittin in the scsi expansion, ie if I switch the drives around the other will work and the one that was working doesnt. any Ideas? Benjamin From cbajpai at attbi.com Sun Apr 21 20:42:55 2002 From: cbajpai at attbi.com (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> Sellam...Who won it? Anyone on the list? Btw- Did the winner bid against himself? He had the winning bid of $14K, but he had an earlier bid (the 2nd highest one) in the 12.5K which look like should have won the auction. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:40 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List; Bay Area Computer Collector List Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the reserve price. A low number by my estimation, but respectable considering the overall circumstances. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 20:56:48 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220109.SAA13140@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c1e9a0$f886af60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's not that ... I just don't want 'em. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for > > all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already > > broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, > > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use > > to me that runs under UNIX. > > I'm sorry to hear you have no use for the probable majority of the servers you > access. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Yes, but when I try to see things your way it gives me a headache. --------- > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 21 20:56:53 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <002601c1e9a1$929417f0$c3f09a8d@ajp166> From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner >> 8080/z80 and if it was DOS you could bet on 808x. Unix back then meant >> MIPS, VAX, PDP-11, SUN/sparc, 68000, Z8000, and a few dozen I likely missed. > > That doesn't make sense. UNIX you state as being easily ported, even >though as a kernel it has to hit the hardware pretty hard, yet you state >applications as not being portable at all, because of the underlying >hardware and processor (which the application shouldn't care about). If >anything, I would think the opposite would be true. You forget I guess. All cpus are from intel. At one time unix was on machines of different word size and instruction set. So an app while easily ported to a new platform, it was not without some problems. Like each version of unix was not always the same as another. Some of those were those little things like the apps programmer needed a target machine and OS to verify on. So "portable" is not the same as "ported to". > Now, speaking as a programmer who's done cross platform programs, I've >come to the conclusion that writing portable software isn't difficult and >with enough experience it becomes quite easy in fact. It's programmers that >make unwarrented assumptions about their code or platform that make for >unportable applications. I didn't say it wasn't possible only that saying the OS is unix meant it was not always a slam dunk and that compliation was often required. > Granted, on the 8-bit systems you often times had to code in Assembly, >both for speed and size reasons (and because compilers for such systems >weren't good enough) but when you get to UNIX the whole point was to avoid >assembly in the first place [1]. Therefore, you are writing in a higher >level, more portable language and then it becomes possible to write code >that will run across platforms. Heck, I've written a program that has >compiled across several different UNIX platforms (SGI, Linux on the x86, >Linux on the DEC Alpha, OpenBSD, FreeBSD) without problems [2] and you'll >notice that there is at least one 64-bit architecture listed there. The >same code was successfully compiled (with one line of code change, plus a >few other lines to get the correct header files loaded) under Microsoft >Windows. Okay, it may not have been optimum code under Windows, but it >still ran with minimum of changes or fuss. Thanks for the tutorial, I heard it back it 82 also. Experence however proved otherwise in practical terms. >[2] Okay, one problem---the DEC Alpha port crashed, but it was tracked > down to a bug in the C library call memchr(). In the past 1983-1988 that was far more commonplace to have incompatable compilers libraries. Allison From mythtech at mac.com Sun Apr 21 21:03:17 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: <200204220203.g3M23KQ30653@ns2.ezwind.net> >Btw- Did the winner bid against himself? He had the winning bid of $14K, >but he had an earlier bid (the 2nd highest one) in the 12.5K which look >like should have won the auction. Probably because of the reserve price (I didn't watch the auction, but Sellam did make a quick mention of the $14k being right at the reserve) -chris From mythtech at mac.com Sun Apr 21 21:04:07 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: <200204220204.g3M24AQ30668@ns2.ezwind.net> >In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the >reserve price. So then that's a 'No' on my offer of $30 + shipping? :-) -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 21:04:39 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001b01c1e9a2$117468e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Perhaps, but why would one have wanted one of them back then? In fact, why would one want one now? BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of them sitting around for people to look at and play with. I personally was not impressed. They were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside from the OS, I don't remember any applications that didn't have the same look and feel as a small mono-MAC costing ~1/10 as much. The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they weren't what the home user wanted. They weren't what I wanted either. I recently saw a NEXT cube for sale in a thrift store complete with its original (Black) laser printer for $10 for the whole shootin'match, and it was running. AFAIK, nobody bought it. I haven't been back to see whether it's sold yet, but it's been a couple of weeks. The laser printer had been there a week or two longer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > >No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for > >all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already > >broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, > >etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use > >to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force myself to use Netscape, > >but I really don't want to. > > Not comparing them to today's Windows machines but to the PC > offerings out during the same timeframe, I doubt you really could've > found a PC comparable in capabilities to Unix workstations such as > the SGI machines, for running applications such as Lightwave 3D, or > the NeXT machines, for such things as Mathmatica and other > scientific-type apps. The hardware on PC's has only in the last few > years caught up to the various workstations in video capabilities and > the CPU's have yet to come near the MIPS and DEC Alpha processors > except in terms of raw clockspeed. Of course, you paid for machines > of this level, but you got a lot more as well. > > With Mac OS X, more new machines are shipping with a UNIX > derived OS than ever before. With so many home machines being > networked, a secure OS is becoming a must....something Windows has > shown time and again to fall short on. Plus, I'd use the freely > downloadable and time-proven Apache webserver over the similar > NT/2000 offerings any day given it's better track record and wider > installed base. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 21:07:20 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <002901c1e9a2$6fd6b3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't care whether these things sell for a million each. It still won't make me want one. I suppose if someone had a lot of dough and some peculiar nostalgia. I don't miss the old Apples ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Bajpai" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:42 PM Subject: RE: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > Sellam...Who won it? Anyone on the list? > > Btw- Did the winner bid against himself? He had the winning bid of $14K, > but he had an earlier bid (the 2nd highest one) in the 12.5K which look > like should have won the auction. > > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:40 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List; Bay Area Computer Collector List > Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > > In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the > reserve price. > > A low number by my estimation, but respectable considering the overall > circumstances. > > :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at > www.VintageTech.com * > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 21:18:20 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: [Fwd: HeathKit H11 Computer] Message-ID: <3CC372EC.6702D19F@jetnet.ab.ca> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: HeathKit H11 Computer Date: 22 Apr 2002 01:36:44 GMT From: jedchilds@aol.com (Jed Childs) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 HeathKit H11 Computer Complete with manuals DecWriter I/O, paper tapes, punch, reader, cpu and extra cards. $500 come and get it. Or write here or email. Jed From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Sun Apr 21 21:22:15 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: I was trying not to get drawn into this flamewar, but I just couldn't stand still listening to this. On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for > all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already Hmm. I would pay $25 for any Unix box faster than a 85MHz Sun SparcStation 5. Maybe it's just me. > broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use > to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force myself to use Netscape, Netscape sucks. Look at Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org) or Konqueror if you want something that's not a resource hog. I'll enumerate some 'useful apps'... OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org (Great office suite) XMMS http://www.xmms.org (like WinAMP) GAIM http://gaim.sourceforge.net (cross-service IM client) if you want to see more useful apps, check out freshmeat.net. You can use that to find a *ton* of OSS or other apps that run on *nix. Debian is really cool - http://www.debian.org, especially with it's 'apt' package tool. > but I really don't want to. This is the same stupid attitude that a few IT higher-ups have in Purdue's School of Education that is preventing anything other than Mac or Windows servers/workstations from being used/supported. [ Of course, they'll support Mac OS X, which is basically BSD. Go figure. ] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doc" > > I doubt anyone willing to make the inane comments you've made so far could > provide any sort of support. Huh? Hmm I guess you're complaining that Doc isn't a part of the M$ cult. > > Really high-end PC hardware isn't much better than midrange, but > > low-end hardware is a verifiable black hole. To wit, it is guaranteed > > to suck. > > > Low-end would cost on the order of $150. > > You'd starve on our service work. Show me a new computer that will last one month past its warranty period that costs $150. Packard Bell is great for delivering DOA machines, and is known for delivering cheap machines. Show me a *nix vendor that sells ANYWHERE as bad quality machines as major PC vendors like PB. I'm pretty sure you can't do it. I've looked for a cheap vendor for Linux Intel/AMD machines and haven't found one. -- Pat From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 21 21:23:41 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001b01c1e9a2$117468e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC3742D.4080902@texoma.net> The Next time you find a NeXT Cube for $10.00 call me and I'll take it. James Richard Erlacher wrote: >Perhaps, but why would one have wanted one of them back then? In fact, why >would one want one now? > >BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of them sitting around >for people to look at and play with. I personally was not impressed. They >were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside from the OS, I don't >remember any applications that didn't have the same look and feel as a small >mono-MAC costing ~1/10 as much. > >The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they >weren't what the home user wanted. They weren't what I wanted either. I >recently saw a NEXT cube for sale in a thrift store complete with its original >(Black) laser printer for $10 for the whole shootin'match, and it was running. >AFAIK, nobody bought it. I haven't been back to see whether it's sold yet, >but it's been a couple of weeks. The laser printer had been there a week or >two longer. > >Dick > From mythtech at mac.com Sun Apr 21 21:28:13 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: <200204220228.g3M2SGQ30906@ns2.ezwind.net> >I don't care whether these things sell for a million each. It still won't >make me want one. Good one less person to take one away from me :-) -chris From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 21:47:04 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002401c1e994$209127e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 2002 06:24:51 PM Message-ID: <200204220247.WAA08490@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > I wouldn't say it's better, but (1) it's better documented, and (2) I don't > have to look at the code. Better documented [1] as for using the program, yes, I'll grant you that (to a degree). And for two, you were the one who brought up the source code of Linux as being ``full of ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among comments relevant only to the original code that was abandoned six or seven revisions back, though it's not obvious.'' So if you don't have to look at the code, why should this be of concern to you? -spc (Who has looked to the source of Linux to figure out the stack frame given to a signal handler to help debug a problem in user code ... ) [1] For various values of documented. Using only the documentation that comes with Microsoft Word (hardcopy or the help files) can someone be reasonably expected to learn how to use Word? Seems like books on *using* software is crowding out books about *writing* software at the bookstores. And to me, that says that the documentation that comes with software is so lacking that a market of third party documentation is viable. So I might contend that your assertion of ``better documented'' is invalid. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 21:53:26 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001b01c1e9a2$117468e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.31526.172104.692000@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of them sitting around > for people to look at and play with. I personally was not impressed. They > were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside from the OS, I don't Compared to what? > The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they > weren't what the home user wanted. They weren't what I wanted either. I That's it, I've finally figured it out. You work for Microsoft's marketing department. How nice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From foxnhare at bigvalley.net Sun Apr 21 21:52:44 2002 From: foxnhare at bigvalley.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #927 References: <200204212016.g3LKGvN29044@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3CC37AF9.5AB70774@bigvalley.net> > Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:28:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Dayna EtherPrint-T and AppleShare > > Will a Dayna EtherPrint-T work for connecting, say, a LocalTalk Mac into an > EtherTalk network, or does it only work for printers? In other words, is it > a true LocalTalk-to-EtherTalk bridge? I don't think the Mac supports encoding/decoding TCP/IP packets via localtalk. From what I understand Ethertalk (what mac compatible printers talk on ethernet) is essentially localtalk wrapped with an ethernet packet. :-/ TCP/ip is a different protocol on the same computer and that is only supported through PPP(remote access) and ethernet. Larry -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Set your 8-bit C= rigs to sail for http://www.portcommodore.com/ 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 22:06:46 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002e01c1e995$20625a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 2002 06:32:01 PM Message-ID: <200204220306.XAA08542@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > Granted, on the 8-bit systems you often times had to code in Assembly, > > both for speed and size reasons (and because compilers for such systems > > weren't good enough) but when you get to UNIX the whole point was to avoid > > assembly in the first place [1]. Therefore, you are writing in a higher > > level, more portable language and then it becomes possible to write code > > that will run across platforms. Heck, I've written a program that has > > compiled across several different UNIX platforms (SGI, Linux on the x86, > > Linux on the DEC Alpha, OpenBSD, FreeBSD) without problems [2] and you'll > > notice that there is at least one 64-bit architecture listed there. The > > same code was successfully compiled (with one line of code change, plus a > > few other lines to get the correct header files loaded) under Microsoft > > Windows. Okay, it may not have been optimum code under Windows, but it > > still ran with minimum of changes or fuss. > > This is true if you've got a set of software tools that really exploits the > hardware effectively. Few do that. The result may be that you have a bit of > software that works well on one platform but not so well on the others, and > perhaps very badly on one or two. I've used software specifically coded straight to the hardware of the Amiga, and it still failed to work on *my* Amiga, due to differences in timing between the European and American versions of the hardware (and that being the *only* differences). You may consider it as two different platforms, but I don't. And there were ways to write code that would work (while hitting the hardware) on any Amiga, reguardless of geographic location. Okay, so you loose a few cycles checking a status bit in hardware to see if something has finished (as opposed to *knowing* that it takes X cycles to do, and therefore since the machine runs at Y Mhz you have time for Z instructions). As far as the software I've written, it doesn't pay for me to code it in Assembly, even though I know it for several architectures, as my code could possibly run on different platforms (even the same architecture under different operating systems). Heck, the same program I mentioned above was a rewrite of a previous version with a slightly different internal architecture to support more features. The rewrite ran slower than the original (but both were in C). Instead of worrying about the speed problem, I kept coding until the program worked. Then profiled the code to see where the hot spots where and with just seven changes to the code (mainly, making what where functions into macros that expanded inline) was able to increase the speed to match the previous version, with more functionality (oh, and I kept the functions around to aid with testing---it's sometimes easier to test C code as functions than as macros). And if it was still too slow, *then* I drop down into assembly for the platform dujour. It's not rocket science. > > [2] Okay, one problem---the DEC Alpha port crashed, but it was tracked > > down to a bug in the C library call memchr(). > > My neighbor just scrapped two brand-new Alpha stations because they wouldn't > run the 64-bit UNIX version the vendor, now history, produced them for. He > couldn't, after several months of effort even get any one to buy the boxes for > the box/PSU combo. He put them in the dumpster, still in their plastic wrap. > I wish he'd offered me the enclosures with the PSU's ... Let me guess, Ultrix? I've seen Linux run without problem on DEC Alphas (heck, I have a friend that runs several DEC Alpha with Linux without problem). And the bug I mentioned above was only found because I apparently was the *only* person so far to call the function with the parameters I did (with values that are legal values for ANSI-C (of which the compiler and library conformed to) but are almost never used). As it was, I could code around it for the DEC Alpha and submit a bug report to the GNU C-library maintainers [1]. -spc (Who still does development on a 120MHz AMD 486 clone ... ) [1] Which is how I think I got invited to the RedHat IPO. Never has a bug report been so profitable 8-) Surprised me to no end. From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Sun Apr 21 22:05:51 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <00cf01c1e958$3f671a80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200204211652.JAA12890@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020421230551.00fdb540@pop1.epm.net.co> At 01:16 PM 4/21/02 -0400, you wrote: >Speaking of confusing, IIRC, the terms anode/cathode >changed polarity between the Physicist and the Chemist. > >John A. What! Never heard of it. Perhaps you're confusing cathode/anode and anions/cations? Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 21 22:07:05 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for > all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already > broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use > to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force myself to use Netscape, > but I really don't want to. That's fine by me. There's room in the world for just about any mindset, and as long as your views are held by the majority, my tools and my toys are cheap. see below, plz. > I doubt anyone willing to make the inane comments you've made so far could > provide any sort of support. Now, Richard. Flattery will get you nowhere. If my comments seem inane to you, it may simply be due to the fact that I don't take myself all that seriously, nor do I believe that my own knowledge is the sum total of all truth. Concerning my capacity to provide support, let me steal a quote from the Jerry Springer Show. "Yew don't knoooow me! Yew don't know who Ah am!" > > Really high-end PC hardware isn't much better than midrange, but > > low-end hardware is a verifiable black hole. To wit, it is guaranteed > > to suck. > > > Low-end would cost on the order of $150. > > You'd starve on our service work. I'm willing to bet that your shop isn't populated with $600 off-the-shelf bundled systems. I've seen PC/Windows shops with remarkably high uptime-to-downtime ratios. None of them were running bargain equipment. Doc From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Apr 21 22:33:52 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020421203239.00a6e120@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:07 PM 4/21/02 -0500, you wrote: > I'm willing to bet that your shop isn't populated with $600 >off-the-shelf bundled systems. > I've seen PC/Windows shops with remarkably high uptime-to-downtime >ratios. None of them were running bargain equipment. You gets what you pay for...... I can't count the number of headache machines i've worked on for people because they bought the cheapest wintel componants :( where if they'd spent 5 to 10 percent more i wouldn't end up working on their machine..... From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 22:27:52 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002601c1e9a1$929417f0$c3f09a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Apr 21, 2002 09:56:53 PM Message-ID: <200204220327.XAA08567@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ajp166 once stated: > > > That doesn't make sense. UNIX you state as being easily ported, even > >though as a kernel it has to hit the hardware pretty hard, yet you state > >applications as not being portable at all, because of the underlying > >hardware and processor (which the application shouldn't care about). If > >anything, I would think the opposite would be true. > > You forget I guess. All cpus are from intel. At one time unix was on > machines of different word size and instruction set. So an app while easily > ported to a new platform, it was not without some problems. Like each > version of unix was not always the same as another. Some of those were > those little things like the apps programmer needed a target machine and OS > to verify on. So "portable" is not the same as "ported to". No, I am aware of other CPU manufacturers than Intel. I've used computers based upon the Motorola 68k (Amiga with a 68000, a Tandy-6000 with a 68000, the Sun-3 series based upon 68020s or higher, some HPs), MIPS (SGI machines), Sparc (Sun-4 series on up), PA-RISC (some other HPs), PowerPC (IBM machines) and the ubiquitous x86 series (Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, MS-DOS, Windows, OS/2). All systems I've developed for (used, however, is a slightly longer list). As for using non-8 bit byte based CPUs? Not really; I don't think I've ever even come across any 9, 12, 18, 24, 36, 60 or 66 bit systems *anywhere* and I'm one of the few programmers I know that's even *heard* of such CPUs. Most programmers I suspect are only aware of the x86. And yes, there is a difference between ``portable'' and ``ported to.'' I try to write what is ``portable'' code. > I didn't say it wasn't possible only that saying the OS is unix meant it was > not always a slam dunk and that compliation was often required. Um ... I thought compilation was *always* required (unless you are using USCD Pascal, Java or C#). > > Granted, on the 8-bit systems you often times had to code in Assembly, > >both for speed and size reasons (and because compilers for such systems > >weren't good enough) but when you get to UNIX the whole point was to avoid > >assembly in the first place [1]. Therefore, you are writing in a higher > >level, more portable language and then it becomes possible to write code > >that will run across platforms. Heck, I've written a program that has > >compiled across several different UNIX platforms (SGI, Linux on the x86, > >Linux on the DEC Alpha, OpenBSD, FreeBSD) without problems [2] and you'll > >notice that there is at least one 64-bit architecture listed there. The > >same code was successfully compiled (with one line of code change, plus a > >few other lines to get the correct header files loaded) under Microsoft > >Windows. Okay, it may not have been optimum code under Windows, but it > >still ran with minimum of changes or fuss. > > Thanks for the tutorial, I heard it back it 82 also. Experence however > proved otherwise in practical terms. I was talking about my code. Yes, I've had experience where the porting was painful (two weeks to ``port'' a Unix editor to QNX---God I wanted to shoot the developer of that program, and another program I had to rewrite for scratch because the original developer didn't care about programming at all, and didn't want to support his mess). > >[2] Okay, one problem---the DEC Alpha port crashed, but it was tracked > > down to a bug in the C library call memchr(). > > In the past 1983-1988 that was far more commonplace to have incompatable > compilers libraries. I'm aware of that. I started coding in C in 1990, *after* the ANSI-C standard was ratified so that did help (and it probably doesn't help much that I refuse to work with anything written in K&R C)). -spc (Have compiler, will program) [1] Footnote not found. Check original message. [2] Footnote not found. (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail? From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Apr 21 22:44:01 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15553.38220.779618.237069@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are > indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them > "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's > pants. That is exactly what I meant...just marketting... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Apr 21 23:03:13 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 06:17:34PM -0600: > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of > serious use to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force > myself to use Netscape, How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful programs that run on UNIX systems. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 22:48:05 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Sellam...Who won it? Anyone on the list? I am not certain if the buyer is on the list, but I must maintain confidentiality in any case. I will say the buyer was from the southern California area. > Btw- Did the winner bid against himself? He had the winning bid of $14K, > but he had an earlier bid (the 2nd highest one) in the 12.5K which look > like should have won the auction. I have no idea what went into the reasoning behind that bidding. There was an earlier series of subsequent bids as well where the high bidder outbid himself. My guess is that the $12,500 bid would have been surpassed by another bidder, and it probably would have inched itself to around $14,000 anyway, perhaps a littler higher if the tussle between the two top bidders had continued. Incidentally, $14,000 was the reserve price. The bidders did know this in advance. All in all it got what I figured it would considering the timing. If this was done 6 months from now, it would very well have sold for $18,000 or more. The seller was motivated, which is why this sale was rushed as it was. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 22:49:21 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <200204220204.g3M24AQ30668@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > >In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the > >reserve price. > > So then that's a 'No' on my offer of $30 + shipping? :-) Unfortunately, you were outbid very early in the auction. Better luck next time ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 22:50:52 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: [Fwd: HeathKit H11 Computer] In-Reply-To: <3CC372EC.6702D19F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: This is actually a pretty good deal considering all that he's offering with the system. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: HeathKit H11 Computer > Date: 22 Apr 2002 01:36:44 GMT > From: jedchilds@aol.com (Jed Childs) > Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com > Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 > > HeathKit H11 Computer > > Complete with manuals DecWriter I/O, paper tapes, punch, reader, cpu and > extra > cards. $500 come and get it. Or write here or email. > Jed Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 21 22:54:35 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > I was trying not to get drawn into this flamewar, but I just couldn't > stand still listening to this. You got trolled by THE guy that all those stories regarding bridges were written about. Doesn't everyone know by now that Dick Erlacher is actually a flamebot written by some sadistic bastard a couple years ago? He unleashed it on the CC list to fine tune the AI. He'll make billions off it and all you guys will have is a bad taste in your mouth :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 21 22:53:56 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220327.XAA08567@conman.org> Message-ID: <3CC38954.CEC26B8B@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > As for using non-8 bit byte based CPUs? Not really; I don't think I've > ever even come across any 9, 12, 18, 24, 36, 60 or 66 bit systems > *anywhere* and I'm one of the few programmers I know that's even *heard* of > such CPUs. Most programmers I suspect are only aware of the x86. What computer systems did you have in mind? 9 bit ???? 12 bit ???? ... -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jrice at texoma.net Sun Apr 21 22:57:48 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020421203239.00a6e120@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3CC38A3C.4030309@texoma.net> eMachines! Geoff Reed wrote: > At 10:07 PM 4/21/02 -0500, you wrote: > >> I'm willing to bet that your shop isn't populated with $600 >> off-the-shelf bundled systems. >> I've seen PC/Windows shops with remarkably high uptime-to-downtime >> ratios. None of them were running bargain equipment. > > > You gets what you pay for...... I can't count the number of headache > machines i've worked on for people because they bought the cheapest > wintel componants :( where if they'd spent 5 to 10 percent more i > wouldn't end up working on their machine..... > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Apr 21 23:01:07 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15553.39386.990563.482960@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > The AS/400 grew primarily out of the S/36 architecture but > incorporated many architectural features of the S/38. It has a good > deal of application compatibility with both the S/36 and the S/38. > The S/38 (which came out before the S/36) is otherwise a fairly > different machine from the S/32, S/34, and S/36. ??!!! The S/36 architecture is more or less standard minicomputer fair, as is the S/34*. S/3 is a little wierd, being a 8 bitter (!) designed to handle strings, but still based on standard ideas of computer architecture. There is no funny business going on inside those machines. The S/38, however, is a *completely* different sort of thing, with the whole object-oriented way of thinking (an idea IBM tried with the stillborn FS followup to the S/370) and the concept of CISC taken to an entire new level. The AS/400 is also an object based machine, and most of its internal mechanisms are based on S/38 ideas. From what little has been released about the internals of these two families of machines, it can be said that they are *nothing* like anything else, with the possible exception of the iAPX 432. *Not sure about the S/32 - I have no information on it. > The last model of the System/36 line, the 5363, was "enhanced" (though > I don't know how) and renamed "AS/Entry"...it seems to me that they > followed the numbering scheme, but loosely. AS/Entry is just what it implies - a way to ween the diehard S/36 folks away from 536x machines to AS/400s. William DOnzelli aw288@osfn.org From mythtech at mac.com Sun Apr 21 23:13:24 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #927 Message-ID: <200204220413.g3M4DQQ31853@ns2.ezwind.net> >> Will a Dayna EtherPrint-T work for connecting, say, a LocalTalk Mac into an >> EtherTalk network, or does it only work for printers? In other words, is it >> a true LocalTalk-to-EtherTalk bridge? > >I don't think the Mac supports encoding/decoding TCP/IP packets via >localtalk. From what I understand Ethertalk (what mac compatible >printers talk on ethernet) is essentially localtalk wrapped with an >ethernet packet. :-/ TCP/ip is a different protocol on the same >computer and that is only supported through PPP(remote access) and ethernet. These are actually two different things. 1: Localtalk bridged to EtherTalk (appletalk over ethernet). That is what the Dayna box does. It is good only for AppleTalk uses (file sharing, printer sharing...). 2: TCP/IP over Appletalk. That is known as MacIP. AppleTalk does not natively carry TCP/IP, so a localtalk to ethertalk bridge will not pass TCP/IP simply because TCP/IP can't exist on localtalk (well, I won't say can't, but isn't done with any native Apple hardware). However, you CAN use MacIP, which is Apple's answer to TCP/IP over Appletalk. That is TCP/IP wrapped in an AppleTalk packet. That will be passed by a Localtalk to Ethertalk bridge, simply because the bridge won't know it is not Appletalk. The problem you get into with MacIP is you need something to unwrap it on the other end and pass it to the internet (or whatever TCP/IP application you are using it for). MacIP doesn't work as straight TCP/IP. If you are looking to do localtalk with TCP/IP, a much better solution is to find an old 030 or better box with ethernet (LC2 or 3 works great), and run Sustainable Softworks' IPNetRouter. They have a MacIP router built into it. Then, run Apple's LaserWriter Bridge if you ALSO want to route straight Appletalk using the mac based bridge (IPNetRouter will only examine the MacIP portion, so it won't pass a regular appletalk connection for things like Appleshare, file sharing, and printer sharing, as a result you need Apple's free LaserWriter bridge, which the newest version (2.??) IIRC will bridge for a full appletalk network and not just printers). I would also guess that older versions of AppleShare Server might have a MacIP router built in. Apple must have offered a solution for it, I can't believe they would provide all the client end tools and not have some way of unwrapping it other than depending on a 3rd party program (which is the only app I have seen that does it, but I am sure there must be others). -chris From mythtech at mac.com Sun Apr 21 23:17:14 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <200204220417.g3M4HFQ31915@ns2.ezwind.net> > Concerning my capacity to provide support, let me steal a quote from >the Jerry Springer Show. > > "Yew don't knoooow me! Yew don't know who Ah am!" ROFL!!! -chris From spc at conman.org Sun Apr 21 23:27:02 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC38954.CEC26B8B@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 21, 2002 09:53:56 PM Message-ID: <200204220427.AAA08687@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ben Franchuk once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > As for using non-8 bit byte based CPUs? Not really; I don't think I've > > ever even come across any 9, 12, 18, 24, 36, 60 or 66 bit systems > > *anywhere* and I'm one of the few programmers I know that's even *heard* of > > such CPUs. Most programmers I suspect are only aware of the x86. > What computer systems did you have in mind? > 9 bit ???? > 12 bit ???? I might have gotten a bit confused there. I know of systems that have had 9 bit characters, and some that have 12 bit address spaces but I'm sure that if there were indeed, such things as a nine bit or twelve bit computer, they'll be mentioned soon enough 8-/ -spc (But I do want to say the PDP-8 was a 12 bit system for some reason ... ) From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 21 23:41:13 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: On 22 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of > > serious use to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force > > myself to use Netscape, > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > programs that run on UNIX systems. You'd be surprised at the variety of work I can do on an S/390 with *none* of these. Just because they are useful, doesn't mean that's all there is. Peace... Sridhar From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 23:46:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <001501c1e9b8$bcd03320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The only computer I presently own that cost more than $100 is a notebook. A dozen or more of them have run at the POP without interruption since 1994 (except for that one time when the power outage outlasted the UPS) and there's NEVER been a service problem. The majority of them came from surplus and the low-end at that. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > I was trying not to get drawn into this flamewar, but I just couldn't > stand still listening to this. > > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say $25 for > > all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if they were already > > Hmm. I would pay $25 for any Unix box faster than a 85MHz Sun > SparcStation 5. Maybe it's just me. > > > broken down into their varous scrap types, e.g. steel, aluminum, plastics, > > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of serious use > > to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force myself to use Netscape, > > Netscape sucks. Look at Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org) or Konqueror if > you want something that's not a resource hog. > > I'll enumerate some 'useful apps'... > > OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org (Great office suite) > XMMS http://www.xmms.org (like WinAMP) > GAIM http://gaim.sourceforge.net (cross-service IM client) > Those are "nice" but not necessary. I'm happy with the M$ stuff that Bill sent me years back. I'm apparently not on "the list" any longer and haven't gotten a free copy of XP or any of the OFFICE software after the 2000 release. Of course, I do buy it whenever I see the CD's at the thrift store. Windows typically costs $2 there. Office 2K cost $5, last time I saw it. Typically, a nice ~200 MHz Pentium box with a little (32MB) of RAM and <10GB HDD and a small (15") monitor, plus the usual keyboard and mouse, costs around $75. If it's not running, often because it hasn't got either the RAM or a HDD, it goes for $10, though it may go for as much as $20 if the split the parts up. > > if you want to see more useful apps, check out freshmeat.net. You can use > that to find a *ton* of OSS or other apps that run on *nix. > > Debian is really cool - http://www.debian.org, especially with it's 'apt' > package tool. > > > but I really don't want to. > > This is the same stupid attitude that a few IT higher-ups have in Purdue's > School of Education that is preventing anything other than Mac or Windows > servers/workstations from being used/supported. [ Of course, they'll > support Mac OS X, which is basically BSD. Go figure. ] > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doc" > > > > I doubt anyone willing to make the inane comments you've made so far could > > provide any sort of support. > > Huh? Hmm I guess you're complaining that Doc isn't a part of the M$ cult. > I'm really not complaining at all. It was he who cast the first stone. I just made the observation that thinking of UNIX as appropriate for the era is totally off-base and the market has surely vindicated that view. UNIX may be fine for some things, but not for personal computing. > > > > Really high-end PC hardware isn't much better than midrange, but > > > low-end hardware is a verifiable black hole. To wit, it is guaranteed > > > to suck. > > > > > Low-end would cost on the order of $150. > > > > You'd starve on our service work. > > Show me a new computer that will last one month past its warranty period > that costs $150. Packard Bell is great for delivering DOA machines, and > is known for delivering cheap machines. Show me a *nix vendor that sells > ANYWHERE as bad quality machines as major PC vendors like PB. I'm pretty > sure you can't do it. I've looked for a cheap vendor for Linux Intel/AMD > machines and haven't found one. > PB has been history for about 4 years, haven't they? Compaq is essentially gone, and HP's next ... > I buy complete machines for under $100 and put them to work for people at least twice a month. It's not my business, but I don't like to see people spend good money on overpriced hardware. At least half a dozen of my friends now have those surplus eTower 633's that were being hawked to the list by some spammer about 8 months back, and I got the setup CD from my stepdaughter and set them up for them. The things actually came with the setup materials, but the automated install wasn't there. That was $279 for a Cerleron 633 with 128MB RAM, a DVD, a 65K modem, 2 USB ports, FDD, a 15GB HDD, keyboard, mouse, etc. I snagged a half-dozen 15" HP Pavillion monitors at a thrift store for $5 each, paying $2.50 each because it was "senior-discount-day" and I am, after all, over 55. That same day, I bought an HP Pavillion with 32 MB RAM, a 2GB HDD, etc. and a monitor for $40. It was priced at $80, but ... It even had the speakers and cables, etc, not that I like that sort of thing. I prefer my computers be silent. One local surplus vendor had 33 HP workstations. We told him all we wanted was the power supplies, so he sold 'em to us for $5 each. He kept the monitors (fixed-frequency SONY GDM1950's) We took out the PSU's, the mass storage, and the RAM, and pitched the rest. My partner sold the RAM at some ridiculous price and sent me a fat check. I decided I didn't want the PSU's and gave them to a friend. I'm beginning to wonder whether it's worth feeding power to those 2 and 3 GB hdd's though. Workstations are overrate, if you ask me, though they may have had their day. Hardware dedicated to UNIX concepts is just no longer what's wanted. Say what you like about the PC culture, it's what hits the mark for most users. Yes, they whine, but they are able to do things not even the most sophisticated computer scientists could do when I was in college, yet they don't even know how to read well enough to figure out what a message of more than a line or two means. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 21 23:48:39 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001b01c1e9a2$117468e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC3742D.4080902@texoma.net> Message-ID: <001d01c1e9b8$f8c997e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't see 'em often but if you send me the details off-list, I'll do it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rice" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > The Next time you find a NeXT Cube for $10.00 call me and I'll take it. > > James > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >Perhaps, but why would one have wanted one of them back then? In fact, why > >would one want one now? > >AFAIK, nobody bought it. I haven't been back to see whether it's sold yet, > >but it's been a couple of weeks. The laser printer had been there a week or > >two longer. > > > >Dick > > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 21 23:54:26 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #927 In-Reply-To: <200204220413.g3M4DQQ31853@ns2.ezwind.net> from Chris at "Apr 22, 2 00:13:24 am" Message-ID: <200204220454.VAA14946@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > 1: Localtalk bridged to EtherTalk (appletalk over ethernet). That is what > the Dayna box does. It is good only for AppleTalk uses (file sharing, > printer sharing...). And, having brought it home today and hooked it up, it does exactly that and does it very well. All I needed it for was to let the LocalTalk machines download files from the EtherTalk servers and print to the LaserWriter, and it handles both tasks flawlessly. Much faster than me running LocalTalk Bridge on my long-suffering IIci. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Apr 21 23:58:33 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:41:13AM -0400 References: <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20020421215832.A19741@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:41:13AM -0400, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On 22 Apr 2002, R. D. Davis wrote: > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > > programs that run on UNIX systems. > > You'd be surprised at the variety of work I can do on an S/390 with *none* > of these. Just because they are useful, doesn't mean that's all there is. I assume you use equivalent programs, but what are they? Presumably XEDIT would be high on the list, and one of IBM's print formatters. And you probably have a nice implementation of SQL. Is there a replacement for gimp or xv? -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Apr 22 00:05:43 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: <20020421220542.A21398@eskimo.eskimo.com> It has been my mission for some time to bring a BBC Micro back from England. I would need some way to adapt British plugs to US sockets and convert the voltage, and I would also need a PAL monitor. (No, I don't want black-and-white NTSC. Yes, I could bring a montior back from England along with the computer. I'm not sure if I want to do that.) Does anyone have experience with these things? I am hoping to save money ($500 would be above the top of my price range) but I don't want to fry anything either. Oh yes, and if anyone has an extra Beeb hanging around that would be nice too. -- Derek From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 22 00:21:19 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed References: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> <10204211253.ZM28525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3CC39DCF.5000504@internet1.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > What do you mean by "commercial grade"? The difference between upmarket > devices and small SOHO devices is mostly that the ones used in larger > commercial networks are managed devices. That means you can configure them > remotely (with SNMP or a web interface), get statistics from them, etc. By commercial grade I just meant that I wanted to avoid the home grade stuff that may not have features, or only a few connections. The type of thing that Best Buy, Staples, or another cunsumer oriented store may carry for your average Windows user. > > You really want a switch rather than a hub. Not many people are making > hubs (repeaters) these days, even at the low end of the market. A switch > will ultimately give better throughput, especially in a peer-to-peer > network. Ok, I didn't know that until I started reading all these replies..... a switch is what I'll get :-) > > Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of > money, you want to protect your investment by including 100baseT capability > even if you don't need it right now. I'll probably end up with two of the computers using 100base-T. > > If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most of the > second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother looking for > IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And > Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. > What's the difference between managed and unmanaged? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:25:41 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220247.WAA08490@conman.org> Message-ID: <002701c1e9be$2567c420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> See my comments below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > I wouldn't say it's better, but (1) it's better documented, and (2) I don't > > have to look at the code. > > Better documented [1] as for using the program, yes, I'll grant you that > (to a degree). And for two, you were the one who brought up the source code > of Linux as being ``full of ugly hacks and undocumented modifications, among > comments relevant only to the original code that was abandoned six or seven > revisions back, though it's not obvious.'' So if you don't have to look at > the code, why should this be of concern to you? > I do have to look at the code because the documentation is irrelevant to it. The code is on rev 13.64 and the doc is on 1.01 which is beta, and incomplete at that. What I said was that since the commercial code didn't come with listings, I don't have to concern myself with them. > > -spc (Who has looked to the source of Linux to figure out the stack frame > given to a signal handler to help debug a problem in user code ... ) > > [1] For various values of documented. Using only the documentation that > comes with Microsoft Word (hardcopy or the help files) can someone > be reasonably expected to learn how to use Word? > I'd say so. My 80+ year-old mother did. > > Seems like books on *using* software is crowding out books about > *writing* software at the bookstores. And to me, that says that > the documentation that comes with software is so lacking that a > market of third party documentation is viable. So I might contend > that your assertion of ``better documented'' is invalid. > If programmers knew what computers were intended to do, perhaps they could figure out what to do with them. I'd say a goodly share of what passes as software today, including that from Microsoft, does nothing at all related to what the user thinks it should do, based on the writeups. Further, I'd guess that at least half of the programmers who have worked on a given piece of software, whether for UNIX or Windows, can't agree on what it is supposed to do. Additionally, I'd guess that, of the half that agree on what the program is intended to do, half can't tell you whether it does that, and of that half, another half can't tell you what their own code was intended to do or whether it does that. For weeks, I've been looking for a line-by-line assembler to run on an 805x CPU. I've asked in a number of lists, newsgroups, etc, and gotten numerous replies, all of which has convinced me that of the hundreds of millions of people out there who fancy themselves as programmers, fewer than 1ppm even know what a debug monitor is. I learned what a debug monitor is the day I started using microcontrollers, back in the mid-'70's. I find this unfathomable. Oddly enough, there are many debuggers for the 805x and other cores, that don't even have line-by-line assembler/disassemblers in them. Time was, every debugger you saw had one. Back a few years, an assembler wasn't considered complete unless it could assemble itself, and, likewise, a compiler wasn't complete until it could compile itself. Today's tools won't do that in most cases. I think the problem is that people don't know how to specify and how to finish a piece of work. It's certainly true of most programmers that they simply don't adhere to specifications based solely on design requirements. Many CAN do that, but most won't. I'm not sure what, exactly, this means, but I suspect some profound truth relating to the general decay of the computer software we see these days owes its origins to it. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:26:57 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><001b01c1e9a2$117468e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.31526.172104.692000@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <002f01c1e9be$529f1560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No, ... acutally, I don't, though I wouldn't mind the extra money. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:53 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of them sitting around > > for people to look at and play with. I personally was not impressed. They > > were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside from the OS, I don't > > Compared to what? > > > The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they > > weren't what the home user wanted. They weren't what I wanted either. I > > That's it, I've finally figured it out. You work for Microsoft's > marketing department. How nice. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 00:26:37 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020421215832.A19741@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > > > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > > > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > > > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > > > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > > > programs that run on UNIX systems. > > > > You'd be surprised at the variety of work I can do on an S/390 with *none* > > of these. Just because they are useful, doesn't mean that's all there is. > > I assume you use equivalent programs, but what are they? Presumably > XEDIT would be high on the list, and one of IBM's print formatters. > And you probably have a nice implementation of SQL. Is there a > replacement for gimp or xv? I definitely use XEDIT all the time. DB2 is the best database implementation on mainframes, although it doesn't necessarily have to do with SQL (and often doesn't). I don't do image processing. Period. Mainframes almost never do graphics, so something like xv is not something I would be doing with an S/390. I don't use a shell. I use JCL to set up batch processing jobs. For text processing, I use Bookmaster. It will be a cold day in hell before I let any perl code on any of my mainframes. A lot of stuff I use on the mainframe doesn't have any equivalent in the UNIX world. Peace... Sridhar From thomas at pdp7.org Mon Apr 22 00:33:09 2002 From: thomas at pdp7.org (Thomas Strathmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <002901c1e9a2$6fd6b3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> <002901c1e9a2$6fd6b3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020422053309.GA17815@adams> Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't care whether these things sell for a million each. It still won't > make me want one. I suppose if someone had a lot of dough and some peculiar > nostalgia. I don't miss the old Apples ... Well, I certainly would want to have one but I somehow doubt that paying a lot of money for a piece of electronic equipment that is not useful for anything today is sane. Additionally I figure that people who can afford to pay that much and actually do so are not really serious collectors by the standards of this list, they just want an investment. Thomas -- Thomas S. Strathmann http://pdp7.org RMS: NOOOOOObody expects the GNU Inquisition! Confess! Confess! Confess! From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:35:53 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220306.XAA08542@conman.org> Message-ID: <003b01c1e9bf$922c80e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since the former thread title was I'd point out that the only part of this quoted text that I originated is the part beginning with "This is true if you've got ..." though I'm getting credit for wisdom for which I can't take credit. Not being a software weenie, I'd never have made the claim in the topmost quoted section. The "True 64-bit UNIX" for which my neighbor bought his now-discarded Alpha boxes is unfamiliar to me, but wasn't ULTRIX, since I'd heard that name before. This was an Alpha-specific product, the vendor of which apparently has gone under or something ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > Granted, on the 8-bit systems you often times had to code in Assembly, > > > both for speed and size reasons (and because compilers for such systems > > > weren't good enough) but when you get to UNIX the whole point was to avoid > > > assembly in the first place [1]. Therefore, you are writing in a higher > > > level, more portable language and then it becomes possible to write code > > > that will run across platforms. Heck, I've written a program that has > > > compiled across several different UNIX platforms (SGI, Linux on the x86, > > > Linux on the DEC Alpha, OpenBSD, FreeBSD) without problems [2] and you'll > > > notice that there is at least one 64-bit architecture listed there. The > > > same code was successfully compiled (with one line of code change, plus a > > > few other lines to get the correct header files loaded) under Microsoft > > > Windows. Okay, it may not have been optimum code under Windows, but it > > > still ran with minimum of changes or fuss. > > > > This is true if you've got a set of software tools that really exploits the > > hardware effectively. Few do that. The result may be that you have a bit of > > software that works well on one platform but not so well on the others, and > > perhaps very badly on one or two. > > I've used software specifically coded straight to the hardware of the > Amiga, and it still failed to work on *my* Amiga, due to differences in > timing between the European and American versions of the hardware (and that > being the *only* differences). You may consider it as two different > platforms, but I don't. And there were ways to write code that would work > (while hitting the hardware) on any Amiga, reguardless of geographic > location. Okay, so you loose a few cycles checking a status bit in hardware > to see if something has finished (as opposed to *knowing* that it takes X > cycles to do, and therefore since the machine runs at Y Mhz you have time > for Z instructions). > > As far as the software I've written, it doesn't pay for me to code it in > Assembly, even though I know it for several architectures, as my code could > possibly run on different platforms (even the same architecture under > different operating systems). Heck, the same program I mentioned above was > a rewrite of a previous version with a slightly different internal > architecture to support more features. The rewrite ran slower than the > original (but both were in C). > > Instead of worrying about the speed problem, I kept coding until the > program worked. Then profiled the code to see where the hot spots where and > with just seven changes to the code (mainly, making what where functions > into macros that expanded inline) was able to increase the speed to match > the previous version, with more functionality (oh, and I kept the functions > around to aid with testing---it's sometimes easier to test C code as > functions than as macros). > > And if it was still too slow, *then* I drop down into assembly for the > platform dujour. > > It's not rocket science. > > > > [2] Okay, one problem---the DEC Alpha port crashed, but it was tracked > > > down to a bug in the C library call memchr(). > > > > My neighbor just scrapped two brand-new Alpha stations because they wouldn't > > run the 64-bit UNIX version the vendor, now history, produced them for. He > > couldn't, after several months of effort even get any one to buy the boxes for > > the box/PSU combo. He put them in the dumpster, still in their plastic wrap. > > I wish he'd offered me the enclosures with the PSU's ... > > Let me guess, Ultrix? I've seen Linux run without problem on DEC Alphas > (heck, I have a friend that runs several DEC Alpha with Linux without > problem). And the bug I mentioned above was only found because I apparently > was the *only* person so far to call the function with the parameters I did > (with values that are legal values for ANSI-C (of which the compiler and > library conformed to) but are almost never used). As it was, I could code > around it for the DEC Alpha and submit a bug report to the GNU C-library > maintainers [1]. > > -spc (Who still does development on a 120MHz AMD 486 clone ... ) > > [1] Which is how I think I got invited to the RedHat IPO. Never has a > bug report been so profitable 8-) Surprised me to no end. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 00:45:34 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC30190.4836BBDF@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c1e96a$ff650420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC3A37E.2BE4E842@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'll check with a friend of mine who's an Altera agent, but ALTERA certainly > has a CPLD solution to that problem. I think the JTAG<=>parallel-port > solution is more appealing for someone in your situation, however, since you > can use a backup battery to keep it alive and you can reload it from your PC. > BTW, if you are designing your own hardware, wouldn't it make sense to do what > that microcontroller would do in some sort of hardware? All you have to do is > address the standard EPROMS and serialize their output in sync with the FPGA's > signals to what it thinks is the serial PROM. Well I need a mail order supplier to CANADA thus that rules out ALTERA. I may even NOT use Xlinix CPLD's because I like the idea that with TTL I don't need any programing DONE. The price of PCB's and low cost TTL is about the same as using higher cost chips. I might use 2901's from B.G.Micro as they are cheap ($1.50) but does anybody know of the original data sheets of the web in pdf form? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:48:00 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <004901c1e9c1$451a5c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've never gotten one iota of use from any of the tools you mention, though, I have a "friendlified" version of EMACS. These are all development-related tools. Software development only qualifies as useful work in the rare case that you're involved in software development. For everyone else, it's overhead, which is less than useless. Even in hardware development, the software is a burden. It's a burden on the cost of other goods and services. Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of grep for a list of, say, 100 words and phrases. When he complains after about a week that he's not made much progress, THEN ask him what a regular expression is. BTW, in response to someone else's comment regarding EMACS and schematic capture or whatever, the first schematic program I used under UNIX was written in EMACS, which has a substantial LISP interpreter built in, or attached, or whatever. I was unimpressed until I learned that it was written as a set of macros. It was slow, but, for 1985, and compared with terminal-based CP/M, it was pretty impressive. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 10:03 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 06:17:34PM -0600: > > etc. I've yet to see even one piece of software that would be of > > serious use to me that runs under UNIX. I know that I could force > > myself to use Netscape, > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > programs that run on UNIX systems. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:50:32 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:55 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <005701c1e9c1$9da0b700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm going to have to open the hatch now, Dave ... er ... I mean Sellam ... good bye ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > > > I was trying not to get drawn into this flamewar, but I just couldn't > > stand still listening to this. > > You got trolled by THE guy that all those stories regarding bridges were > written about. > > Doesn't everyone know by now that Dick Erlacher is actually a flamebot > written by some sadistic bastard a couple years ago? He unleashed it on > the CC list to fine tune the AI. He'll make billions off it and all you > guys will have is a bad taste in your mouth :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:55:04 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020421203239.00a6e120@mail.zipcon.net> <3CC38A3C.4030309@texoma.net> Message-ID: <007201c1e9c2$3ff91420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've been there too, but there's been no trouble with these boxes ... The only component in PC's that consistently gives me heartburn is the PSU. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rice" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > eMachines! > > Geoff Reed wrote: > > > At 10:07 PM 4/21/02 -0500, you wrote: > > > >> I'm willing to bet that your shop isn't populated with $600 > >> off-the-shelf bundled systems. > >> I've seen PC/Windows shops with remarkably high uptime-to-downtime > >> ratios. None of them were running bargain equipment. > > > > You gets what you pay for...... I can't count the number of headache > > machines i've worked on for people because they bought the cheapest > > wintel componants :( where if they'd spent 5 to 10 percent more i > > wouldn't end up working on their machine..... > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 00:59:31 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> <002901c1e9a2$6fd6b3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422053309.GA17815@adams> Message-ID: <008c01c1e9c2$df612f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'd hope the one ending up with this old-timer doesn't end up paying more for the disposal of the thing than he did for the purchase. Already several vendors are charging a core charge when you buy something to ensure you dispose of it properly. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Strathmann" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I don't care whether these things sell for a million each. It still won't > > make me want one. I suppose if someone had a lot of dough and some peculiar > > nostalgia. I don't miss the old Apples ... > > Well, I certainly would want to have one but I somehow doubt that paying > a lot of money for a piece of electronic equipment that is not useful > for anything today is sane. Additionally I figure that people who can > afford to pay that much and actually do so are not really serious > collectors by the standards of this list, they just want an investment. > > Thomas > > -- > Thomas S. Strathmann http://pdp7.org > RMS: NOOOOOObody expects the GNU Inquisition! Confess! Confess! Confess! > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 00:59:19 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <001501c1e9b8$bcd03320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.42679.597404.552868@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Those are "nice" but not necessary. I'm happy with the M$ stuff that Bill > sent me years back. I'm apparently not on "the list" any longer and haven't Knowing Bill Gates does *not* make you cool in this crowd. ;) > I'm really not complaining at all. It was he who cast the first stone. I > just made the observation that thinking of UNIX as appropriate for the era is > totally off-base and the market has surely vindicated that view. UNIX may be > fine for some things, but not for personal computing. Wow, I guess I'd better run out and buy a Windows box. I wonder if there are any stores open this late. I sure hope so, because all of my UNIX boxes are probably about to stop performing all of my personal computing, and I still have a lot of stuff to do tonight. > Workstations are overrate, if you ask me, though they may have had their day. > Hardware dedicated to UNIX concepts is just no longer what's wanted. Say what Not for suits, no. But suits seldom know what's best for even themselves. You strike me as an intelligent person, which is why I'm surprised at your viewpoints. I'd think you'd be interested in more modern technology. To each his own, more power to you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 01:03:28 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <004901c1e9c1$451a5c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.42928.441754.177179@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is no programmer at all. Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical computer programmers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 01:05:57 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <003b01c1e9bf$922c80e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 2002 11:35:53 PM Message-ID: <200204220605.CAA08853@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Since the former thread title was I'd point out > that the only part of this quoted text that I originated is the part beginning > with "This is true if you've got ..." though I'm getting credit for wisdom for > which I can't take credit. Not being a software weenie, I'd never have made > the claim in the topmost quoted section. The top portion quoted was me, of which you responded to (starting with ``This is true if you've got ... '') and then my response to that. I still don't know what you actually meant by your response, and my reply was an attempt to answer what I thought you were trying to say by showing how coding to the hardware, to get maximum performance, doesn't always work even if the platform the program was written for doesn't change (significantly). > The "True 64-bit UNIX" for which my neighbor bought his now-discarded Alpha > boxes is unfamiliar to me, but wasn't ULTRIX, since I'd heard that name > before. This was an Alpha-specific product, the vendor of which apparently > has gone under or something ... The only operating systems that I'm aware of that were made for the DEC Alpha were VMS (or is that OpenVMS), ULTRIX, Linux and maybe a certain version of Windows NT. There might have been another UNIX variant made for the DEC Alpha but I'm not aware of what it could be. -spc (And I have to wonder what you actually use computers for ... ) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 01:06:22 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area (William Donzelli) References: <15553.38220.779618.237069@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15555.43102.812511.963068@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, William Donzelli wrote: > > Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are > > indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them > > "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's > > pants. > > That is exactly what I meant...just marketting... Ahh, ok...I suppose, then, I was vehemently agreeing with you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 01:05:10 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) References: <3CC38954.CEC26B8B@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204220427.AAA08687@conman.org> Message-ID: <15555.43030.78548.986360@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 22, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (But I do want to say the PDP-8 was a 12 bit system for some reason ... ) For a very good reason...it *is*! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Apr 22 01:07:36 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <003b01c1e9bf$922c80e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200204220306.XAA08542@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020422160533.02891e78@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 11:35 PM 21/04/2002 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >The "True 64-bit UNIX" for which my neighbor bought his now-discarded Alpha >boxes is unfamiliar to me, but wasn't ULTRIX, since I'd heard that name >before. This was an Alpha-specific product, the vendor of which apparently >has gone under or something ... Tru64 Unix is Compaq's (soon to be HP's) Unix offering for the Alpha systems sold by Compaq. All new alpha based systems are supported under Tru64. Digital sold some Alpha based systems which were Windows NT only. Many of these systems cannot be convinced to run Tru64 (or OpenVMS for that matter). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 22 01:05:11 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher muttered these words: > The only computer I presently own that cost more than $100 is a notebook. A > dozen or more of them have run at the POP without interruption since 1994 > (except for that one time when the power outage outlasted the UPS) and > there's NEVER been a service problem. The majority of them came from surplus > and the low-end at that. Well, I was talking about NEW (as in from a non-used, non-surplus vendor). Sure you can get a Pentium Pro 200 Server for $50 that's built like a tank, but that's not the same as getting a new computer for $50. > more below ... Hmm, more fun to come... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > No, I wouldn't pay that much, but I wouldn't pay out more than, say > > > $25 for all the UNIX boxes on the planet either, and that only if > > > they were already > > > > Hmm. I would pay $25 for any Unix box faster than a 85MHz Sun > > SparcStation 5. Maybe it's just me. > > > > I'll enumerate some 'useful apps'... > > > > OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org (Great office suite) > > XMMS http://www.xmms.org (like WinAMP) > > GAIM http://gaim.sourceforge.net (cross-service IM client) > > > Those are "nice" but not necessary. I'm happy with the M$ stuff that Bill > sent me years back. I'm apparently not on "the list" any longer and haven't > gotten a free copy of XP or any of the OFFICE software after the 2000 > release. HUH??? I dont see how M$ OFFICE is any more necessary than anything I enumerated above. If you're looking for file compatibilty, OpenOffice does that right out of the box with no hassles. > Of course, I do buy it whenever I see the CD's at the thrift store. Windows > typically costs $2 there. Office 2K cost $5, last time I saw it. Typically, Debian costs either the same as a few blank floppies or CDs depending on how you decide to do the install. OpenOffice costs however long it takes to download the installer. And neither of them have as many bugs (oops, I mean 'features') as MS Windows or MS Office. Heh, I'd even say they're MORE USABLE than the MS Equivalents. The only reasons Microsoft still exists are: 1) Biz-droids that are scared by MS's FUD or their own ignorance of alternatives 2) Consumers who don't have a real choice because of (a) binary compatibilty (b) cheap hardware not being supported under other OS's or (c) inavailablility of machines running Linux that they can get at HH Greg, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, Service Merchanise, etc. > a nice ~200 MHz Pentium box with a little (32MB) of RAM and <10GB HDD and a > small (15") monitor, plus the usual keyboard and mouse, costs around $75. If > it's not running, often because it hasn't got either the RAM or a HDD, it > goes for $10, though it may go for as much as $20 if the split the parts up. Uhm, since when can't a PC be a *nix box? Last I checked, most Linux and BSD distros ran on garden-variety PCs.... and were MUCH less resource intensive than M$'s alternatives. > > Show me a new computer that will last one month past its warranty period > > that costs $150. Packard Bell is great for delivering DOA machines, and > > is known for delivering cheap machines. Show me a *nix vendor that sells > > ANYWHERE as bad quality machines as major PC vendors like PB. I'm pretty > > sure you can't do it. I've looked for a cheap vendor for Linux Intel/AMD > > machines and haven't found one. > > PB has been history for about 4 years, haven't they? Compaq is essentially > gone, and HP's next ... Well, I don't really follow the commodity PC market since they're typically either overpriced or pieces of junk compared to what I can build myself. Anyhow, you're talking about getting Suplus/Used machines. I KNOW there's PB's still out there in those markets. > I buy complete machines for under $100 and put them to work for people at > least twice a month. It's not my business, but I don't like to see people > One local surplus vendor had 33 HP workstations. We told him all we wanted > was the power supplies, so he sold 'em to us for $5 each. He kept the > monitors (fixed-frequency SONY GDM1950's) We took out the PSU's, the mass > storage, and the RAM, and pitched the rest. My partner sold the RAM at some > ridiculous price and sent me a fat check. I decided I didn't want the PSU's > and gave them to a friend. I'm beginning to wonder whether it's worth feeding > power to those 2 and 3 GB hdd's though. OK, you seem to be stuck on comparing a $600 new system to a $20 used system. When I said $100 above, no one had said jack squat about used, and I was talking about a *new* system. ** I don't consider a 'new in the box' system that hasn't been offered as a new model by its manufacturer for >1yr as new. > Workstations are overrate, if you ask me, though they may have had their > day. Hardware dedicated to UNIX concepts is just no longer what's wanted. > Say what you like about the PC culture, it's what hits the mark for most > users. OK, show me a PC in a thrift store that'll render a 3d animation as quickly as a new top-of-the-line SGI workstation. Not everyone needs that horsepower but some people (myself included) need or want something that'll compile code or do X quickly as possible. After all, time is money. OR show me a thrift-store PC for under $100 that'll convert a 2hr dvd (er MPEG2 stream) to MPEG4/DivX;-) in under 20hrs. My old Athlon 700 took approximately that long and is worth much more than $100 used. Now that's a task Joe Consumer might want to do. > Yes, they whine, but they are able to do things not even the most > sophisticated computer scientists could do when I was in college, yet they > don't even know how to read well enough to figure out what a message of more > than a line or two means. Well you won't get any argument from me that most consumers of PCs are complete morons. Personally, I say give them a broadband connected 'network computer' that connects to an ASP to run apps and give them a gaming console for games. Giveing Joe User a PC that they 'sys admin' themselves is a terrible idea. My $0.02 -- Pat From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 22 01:07:06 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <200204220607.g3M67LC06480@Fubar.nop.org> On Sunday 21 April 2002 23:03, you wrote: > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > programs that run on UNIX systems. But what makes it really powerfull is that they plumb together Lets see lets lookup the func for a case ins string compare ~# what str | grep two | grep case sptrcasecm, strncasecmp (3) - compare two strings ignoring case wcscasecmp (3) compare two wide-character strings, ignoring case wcsncasecmp (3) compare two fixed-size wide-character strings, ignoring case (( alias what='apropos' )) I can now lookup the function with man 3 strncasecmp Now to a WinBloZ idiot, this means nothing, they are so "Winblows Limited" in their thinking, that device independence, the ability to have 40 CPUs as headless seemless networked compute nodes because the interface is network transparent, ( that part of X11 on its own makes winblows look far too stupid for anyone with a brain) Or the ability to: ssh -P -l root viatie "(tar cf - /etc)" | (cat > /viatieetc.tar) all beyond their understanding And what would they make a button you click on that does this ? ("SunDT :2 root@Sparc", SHEXEC, "(Xnest :2 -display fubar:0 -nolock -bs -su &) && ssh1 -a -x -k -n -P -q -l root Sparc '(/root/xnest-desktop 1>/dev/null 2>/dev/null)'")), Its like attempting to explain the shuttle nosewhell servos to a cave man, they have no frame of reference, and are too ignorant to have any hint of how ignorant they are. Raymond From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 01:07:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC30190.4836BBDF@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c1e96a$ff650420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC3A37E.2BE4E842@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009801c1e9c4$29830a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Why does that rule out ALTERA? The same guys who'd mail parts to me in the U.S. will ship to Canada, won't they? I know of no embargo against Canada. Why not just get a friend and go down to the liquor store, get him to keep the engine running while you make a "withdrawal" so you can buy one of the evaluation boards for the big XILINX VIRTEX chips? I'd recommend late Saturday night on a 3-day weekend, though, so you'll get enough in a single haul. Either that or bump off your wife after buying a sufficient life insurance policy. That way you won't have to listen to the complaints about how much you spent. Those evaluation boards tend to have the parallel port programming interface on them, so all you'll need is the printer port adapter. I wonder if you can get stuff like that in prison ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'll check with a friend of mine who's an Altera agent, but ALTERA certainly > > has a CPLD solution to that problem. I think the JTAG<=>parallel-port > > solution is more appealing for someone in your situation, however, since you > > can use a backup battery to keep it alive and you can reload it from your PC. > > BTW, if you are designing your own hardware, wouldn't it make sense to do what > > that microcontroller would do in some sort of hardware? All you have to do is > > address the standard EPROMS and serialize their output in sync with the FPGA's > > signals to what it thinks is the serial PROM. > > Well I need a mail order supplier to CANADA thus that rules out ALTERA. > I may even NOT use Xlinix CPLD's because I like the idea that with TTL I > don't need any programing DONE. The price of PCB's and low cost TTL is > about > the same as using higher cost chips. I might use 2901's from B.G.Micro > as they > are cheap ($1.50) but does anybody know of the original data sheets of > the web > in pdf form? > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Apr 22 00:21:12 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> <002901c1e9a2$6fd6b3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <00af01c1e9bd$84d61d40$882ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. -W ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > I don't care whether these things sell for a million each. It still won't > make me want one. I suppose if someone had a lot of dough and some peculiar > nostalgia. I don't miss the old Apples ... > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chandra Bajpai" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 7:42 PM > Subject: RE: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > > > Sellam...Who won it? Anyone on the list? > > > > Btw- Did the winner bid against himself? He had the winning bid of $14K, > > but he had an earlier bid (the 2nd highest one) in the 12.5K which look > > like should have won the auction. > > > > -Chandra > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > > Festival > > Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 8:40 PM > > To: Classic Computers Mailing List; Bay Area Computer Collector List > > Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > > > > > In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the > > reserve price. > > > > A low number by my estimation, but respectable considering the overall > > circumstances. > > > > :) > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at > > www.VintageTech.com * > > > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 22 01:12:50 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: <3CC39DCF.5000504@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > By commercial grade I just meant that I wanted to avoid the home grade > stuff that may not have features, or only a few connections. The type > of thing that Best Buy, Staples, or another cunsumer oriented store may > carry for your average Windows user. Amazingly, the home grade stuff that's on the shelves lately really is plenty for a home net. The features it doesn't have are next to useless on a network with fewer than 25 nodes. Stay away from the firewall appliances though. They're notoriously easy to get through. > What's the difference between managed and unmanaged? A serial port, a password, and several decimal points. Seriously, a managed switch allows you to define which nodes can "go" where, force connection parameters - 10Mb or 100, full-duplex or half - keep transfer statistics, etc. A really good one will cost over a grand. Like I said, I have one, and I prefer my little $70 NetGear 10/100 auto-sensing switch. Doc From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Apr 22 00:24:45 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> <002901c1e9a2$6fd6b3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422053309.GA17815@adams> Message-ID: <00d301c1e9be$03cb55c0$882ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I don't care whether these things sell for a million each. It still won't > > make me want one. I suppose if someone had a lot of dough and some peculiar > > nostalgia. I don't miss the old Apples ... > I figure that people who can > afford to pay that much and actually do so are not really serious > collectors by the standards of this list You mean, cheapskate, holier-than-thou, dumpster divers (and damn proud of it)? From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 22 01:20:51 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204220620.g3M6Kqa06531@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 22 April 2002 00:26, you wrote: > It will be a cold day in hell before I let any perl code on any of my > mainframes. A lot of stuff I use on the mainframe doesn't have any > equivalent in the UNIX world. > Peace... Sridhar Linux zseriespenguins.ihost.com 2.2.16 #2 SMP Tue Jun 5 20:00:56 EDT 2001 s390 [root /]# cat /proc/cpuinfo vendor_id : IBM/S390 [root@l007098 /]# perl --version This is perl, version 5.005_03 built for s390-linux I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes Raymond http://linux390.nop.org From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 01:22:23 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <004901c1e9c1$451a5c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 2002 11:48:00 PM Message-ID: <200204220622.CAA08914@conman.org> I'm reworking the quoting here, since the Great Richard Erlacher seems insistent upon leaving the quoted material below his response. It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Quoting R. D. Davis: > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > > programs that run on UNIX systems. > > I've never gotten one iota of use from any of the tools you mention, though, I > have a "friendlified" version of EMACS. These are all development-related > tools. Software development only qualifies as useful work in the rare case > that you're involved in software development. Of the programs mentioned, od, C, Perl, shell scripts and lint are defintely developer tools, awk, nawk (which are nearly the same thing), grep, sed and diff may appear to be developer tools but do have their uses elsewhere. tar, ed, cal, at and bc are general purpose tools and while some (like tar and ed) can be used in a devopment capacity, I personally, in the 10 years or so of Unix development I've personally done, have ever used cal, at or bc as a developer. Emacs again, can be used for development, but it is a general text editor (and a programmable one at that). TeX/LaTeX is only used in development if you use the WEB programming environment that Donald Knuth uses---otherwise it's a typesetting program that does a better job at output than Microsoft Word does, and dvips is a program to convert TeX/LaTeX output files and convert them to PostScript. ghostview is for displaying PostScript files on the screen, gimp is an image manipulation program (like Photoshop, and I don't know many software developers that use it, other than the programmers working on Photoshop and/or the Gimp), xv is an image viewer and PostgreSQL and Oracle are databases and used by a wider audience than just developers. But to catagorize all of them as ``development-related tools'' is a disingenious thing to say. > Even in hardware development, the > software is a burden. It's a burden on the cost of other goods and services. What does this even mean? > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of > grep for a list of, say, 100 words and phrases. When he complains after about > a week that he's not made much progress, THEN ask him what a regular > expression is. And what does this have to do with anything? Anyone that is familiar with how Unix works and can use grep can probably use grep on a list of 100 words or phrases without much problem. Giving the same problem to someone not familiar with UNIX and yes, you'll get complaints. Heck, stick me with a Windows box and IIS to configure and I'll be lost for a week and wanting to know why we can't use Apache instead? -spc (Or why Windows has to be rebooted after making a network change, or a program has been installed, or removed, or the mouse moved too much, or ... ) From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Mon Apr 22 01:20:56 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <004901c1e9c1$451a5c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of > grep for a list of, say, 100 words and phrases. When he complains after about > a week that he's not made much progress, THEN ask him what a regular > expression is. *I* wouldn't call them a programmer if they couldnt figure that out. I'd tell them to go back to school and get a *real* education. F*ck, I'm a junior in CompE at Purdue and am pretty good at playing with RegExp's. Just because a person says they're a programmer doesn't make them one. Would you like to have your surgeon tell you 'I don't know exactly how to stich you up, so I'm going to have my mother sew you up'? A programmer that doesn't understand simple concepts like RegExp's shouldn't be trying to program. Period. -- Pat From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Apr 22 01:24:01 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204220605.CAA08853@conman.org> References: <003b01c1e9bf$922c80e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020422162203.02891e78@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 02:05 AM 22/04/2002 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > The only operating systems that I'm aware of that were made for the DEC >Alpha were VMS (or is that OpenVMS), ULTRIX, Linux and maybe a certain >version of Windows NT. There might have been another UNIX variant made for >the DEC Alpha but I'm not aware of what it could be. Ultrix was never made available for the alpha. The Unix variant for alpha was originally known as OSF/1 which became Digital Unix after most of the OSF/1 consortium disappeared and then became Tru64 Unix after Compaq purchased Digital. Linux for alpha has some Compaq support engineers who help qualify Linux for new Alpha systems. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 01:29:53 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <001501c1e9b8$bcd03320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.42679.597404.552868@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00a201c1e9c7$1d4e02a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know Bill Gates ... and being "cool" in this or any other crowd is not my goal ... but I did get on a list back in '78-'79, possibly at a West Coast Computer Fair and, until quite recently, have received official licenses and media for many of their software products gratis and without any request from me. I doubt they even know whether I'm a PC user, though I'm equally sure that info is on one of their thousands of machines. In most cases I've not kept these packages because (a) I already had them or (b) because I subsequently acquired them from another very inexpensive source. The fact that "Knowing Bill Gates does *not* make you cool in this crowd." is part of the problem, and not in any way lending toward a solution. Much of the nonsense that's been bandied about in this thread is based on Microsoft-haters' passions and not on reason or understanding of the role of computers in modern society/life. A computer is a tool, and some folks need an industrial nail gun while others can get by fine with a small, wooded-handled, plastic mallet. If all you're doing is hanging a picture, having a nail gun won't even help. Most of the people I've met who use UNIX/LINUX in their home-computing pursuits do it because they've nothing better to do. You may not fit that model, but these guys figure out ways to make their computers more secure, more complicated to use, and often have to type for several minutes to find out whether a copy of a file on their local hard drive is available on that other box down the wire. When my machines are all turned on, I can do that in less than 15 seconds, and that long only because I can't remember the file name. I just want (1) for my computers to act in concert to present me with a convenient interface and (2) for them to work as expected. They seem to do that most of the time. In recent years my cars have been more reliable than my computers, but that wasn't the case some years back when I used Detroit iron. When my computers become as reliable as my telephone, which may happen not because the computers get better but ... then I'll be happy enough, I think. If I had my way, of course, software vendors would be required, on pain of penalty far more severe than death, to verify that they've specified precisely every operation their work product produces whether intentional or not, and verifies that it does so under all circumstances involving content of any/all memory/mass-storage content as well as transient input/output that the intended target is capable of encountering. That means very thorough and exhaustive testing. I'm not sure what I'd pay to see one or another software executive forced to eat his 30-year-old firstborn during half-time at the SuperBowl (That ought to be a good fight!). Probably more than I'd pay for a UNIX license, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2002 11:59 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Those are "nice" but not necessary. I'm happy with the M$ stuff that Bill > > sent me years back. I'm apparently not on "the list" any longer and haven't > > Knowing Bill Gates does *not* make you cool in this crowd. ;) > > > I'm really not complaining at all. It was he who cast the first stone. I > > just made the observation that thinking of UNIX as appropriate for the era is > > totally off-base and the market has surely vindicated that view. UNIX may be > > fine for some things, but not for personal computing. > > Wow, I guess I'd better run out and buy a Windows box. I wonder if > there are any stores open this late. I sure hope so, because all of > my UNIX boxes are probably about to stop performing all of my personal > computing, and I still have a lot of stuff to do tonight. > > > Workstations are overrate, if you ask me, though they may have had their day. > > Hardware dedicated to UNIX concepts is just no longer what's wanted. Say what > > Not for suits, no. But suits seldom know what's best for even > themselves. You strike me as an intelligent person, which is why I'm > surprised at your viewpoints. I'd think you'd be interested in more > modern technology. To each his own, more power to you. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 01:30:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org><004901c1e9c1$451a5c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.42928.441754.177179@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00a801c1e9c7$2e07a060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's my point, Dave! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:03 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of > > Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is > no programmer at all. > > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > computer programmers? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 01:30:47 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Raymond Moyers) References: <200204220620.g3M6Kqa06531@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <15555.44567.478165.493519@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes This frightens me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 01:31:02 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <15555.43102.812511.963068@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Umm, I have to disagree with you there...the machines in question are > > > indeed of a mainframe architecture, and some IBMers were calling them > > > "servers" many years before the zSeries was even an itch in IBM's > > > pants. > > > > That is exactly what I meant...just marketting... > > Ahh, ok...I suppose, then, I was vehemently agreeing with you. ;) A page on IBM's site (I think it's http://www.ibm.com/servers/eserver/ but I'm too lazy to check) labels them "mainframe servers". Peace... Sridhar From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 01:42:56 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002701c1e9be$2567c420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 21, 2002 11:25:41 PM Message-ID: <200204220642.CAA08976@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > [1] For various values of documented. Using only the documentation that > > comes with Microsoft Word (hardcopy or the help files) can someone > > be reasonably expected to learn how to use Word? > > I'd say so. My 80+ year-old mother did. Well, kudos to her then. > > Seems like books on *using* software is crowding out books about > > *writing* software at the bookstores. And to me, that says that > > the documentation that comes with software is so lacking that a > > market of third party documentation is viable. So I might contend > > that your assertion of ``better documented'' is invalid. > > > If programmers knew what computers were intended to do, perhaps they could > figure out what to do with them. I'd say a goodly share of what passes as > software today, including that from Microsoft, does nothing at all related to > what the user thinks it should do, based on the writeups. Further, I'd guess > that at least half of the programmers who have worked on a given piece of > software, whether for UNIX or Windows, can't agree on what it is supposed to > do. Additionally, I'd guess that, of the half that agree on what the program > is intended to do, half can't tell you whether it does that, and of that half, > another half can't tell you what their own code was intended to do or whether > it does that. Setting: my office at a webhosting company I used to work for. Boss/partner comes in. ``Sean, can we do blah?'' he asks. I think about it for a few moments. Doing blah would require this, that and the other thing and it would take a while to get done, but ... ``Yes, I think that's possible.'' ``Good,'' he says. ``I just sold blah to a customer so we need it by tomorrow.'' Repeat that story any number of times at any number of software companies. Or how about: ``Oh, the customer wants the program to do yada yada instead of blah blah.'' ``But I thought we agreed that we implement blah blah and only blah blah?'' ``But the customer now wants yada yada.'' ``Okay, but you just threw out foo months of work.'' ``Oh, and we're still bound by the original deadline.'' And you wonder why software is so crappy? We programmers can't agree on what to do because management, sales, or even the customer can't agree on what they want. Microsoft is successful partly because they have the resources to change on a dime, partly because they control 90% of the consumer desktop market and can dictate what we want, and partly because they have a marketing department from Hell. Tell you what, I'll spec a program for you to write that will take, say, six months. Two months from now I'll add some unreasonable features and the following month, change the specs completely on you, and still hold you responsible for the original deadline. Oh, and in month five, I'll add even more contradictory features, and two weeks before the deadline, add the condition that you have to support the original spec as well. Does that sound okay? > For weeks, I've been looking for a line-by-line assembler to run on an 805x > CPU. I've asked in a number of lists, newsgroups, etc, and gotten numerous > replies, all of which has convinced me that of the hundreds of millions of > people out there who fancy themselves as programmers, fewer than 1ppm even > know what a debug monitor is. Um ... you asked for a line-by-line assembler, but you really wanted a debug monitor ... um ... so why didn't you ask for a debug monitor in the first place? > Back a few years, an assembler wasn't considered complete unless it could > assemble itself, and, likewise, a compiler wasn't complete until it could > compile itself. Today's tools won't do that in most cases. I think the > problem is that people don't know how to specify and how to finish a piece of > work. It's certainly true of most programmers that they simply don't adhere > to specifications based solely on design requirements. Many CAN do that, but > most won't. I'm not sure what, exactly, this means, but I suspect some > profound truth relating to the general decay of the computer software we see > these days owes its origins to it. I think programmers can adhere to specifications based solely on design requirements *when they don't change!* I have a friend that will *only* program to the specifications and he demands that they don't change *at all* or he won't do the work. And yes, he's gotten into some heated discussions with clients about that. But he can say that he has followed the spec to the letter, on time and within budget. -spc (Oh, forgot to tell you ... I won't tell you the specs at all, but that shouldn't affect the time schedule any ... ) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 01:43:17 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220605.CAA08853@conman.org> Message-ID: <00c701c1e9c8$fe31eba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OK ... I said :: This is true if you've got a set of software tools that really exploits the :: hardware effectively. Few do that. The result may be that you have a bit of :: software that works well on one platform but not so well on the others, and :: perhaps very badly on one or two. and this was in the context of portable coding so I meant that while you may have software that creates really pretty decent code for one platform, that same source code may not produce as good a product on another, and, in fact, may produce pretty bad code for yet another set of hardware. There's plenty of evidence of that, at least according to people with whom I routinely interact. I personally code in assembler for the MCU's I use and occasionally use a compiler if I have an environment where timing is not critical all the time and where it's easier to use logic spelled out in 'C' or Pascal. That often means that interrupt code is written in assembler while message generation or communication code is produced by a compiler. Portability is seldom an issue for me. As for what I do with my computer(s), I use 'em as tools to earn a living, which I've managed for quite a while now. I don't play games much, unless I'm waiting for some other task to finish. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:05 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Since the former thread title was I'd point out DEC Alpha but I'm not aware of what it could be. > > -spc (And I have to wonder what you actually use computers for ... ) > > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 22 01:48:42 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <00d301c1e9be$03cb55c0$882ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > You mean, cheapskate, holier-than-thou, dumpster divers (and damn proud of it)? > You rang? Doc From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 01:48:52 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00a801c1e9c7$2e07a060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2002 12:30:21 AM Message-ID: <200204220648.CAA08986@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Dave McGuire said: > > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > > computer programmers? > > That's my point, Dave! I'm not sure what your point is. Do you *want* a future full of nontechnical computer programmers? Are you bemoaning a future of nontechnical computer programmers? What? I can't quite pin down exactly what you are trying to get across here. -spc (You are saying that Unix is too hard to use, and Windows is easier to use, but you rant against computers that can't be used at all, so you *want* nontechnical computer programmers? I'm confused ... ) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 02:02:57 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <200204220607.g3M67LC06480@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <00d101c1e9cb$bb825bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You've just demonstrated what an inane line of logic this comment of yours represents. See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Moyers" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:07 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Sunday 21 April 2002 23:03, you wrote: > > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > > programs that run on UNIX systems. > > But what makes it really powerfull is that they plumb together > > Lets see lets lookup the func for a case ins string compare > > ~# what str | grep two | grep case > sptrcasecm, strncasecmp (3) - compare two strings ignoring case > wcscasecmp (3) compare two wide-character strings, ignoring case > wcsncasecmp (3) compare two fixed-size wide-character strings, ignoring case > > (( alias what='apropos' )) > > I can now lookup the function with man 3 strncasecmp > > Now to a WinBloZ idiot, this means nothing, > and why would that matter? > > they are so "Winblows Limited" in their thinking, that device > independence, the ability to have 40 CPUs as headless seemless > networked compute nodes because the interface is network transparent, > Nevertheless, it's possible for a "Winblows Idiot" as you put it, to spell everything he puts out correctly, which you apparently aren't swift enough to do. Note that I'm not talking about typo's, but about syntax errors in the English, resulting in non-words that a spell-checker would reject. I'm also not referring to the acronymns you're inventing or applying from your "world." > > ( that part of X11 on its own makes winblows look far too stupid > for anyone with a brain) > > Or the ability to: > ssh -P -l root viatie "(tar cf - /etc)" | (cat > /viatieetc.tar) > > all beyond their understanding > > And what would they make a button you click on that does this ? > > ("SunDT :2 root@Sparc", SHEXEC, "(Xnest :2 -display fubar:0 > -nolock -bs -su &) && ssh1 -a -x -k -n -P -q -l root Sparc > '(/root/xnest-desktop 1>/dev/null 2>/dev/null)'")), > > Its like attempting to explain the shuttle nosewhell servos > to a cave man, they have no frame of reference, and are > too ignorant to have any hint of how ignorant they are. > I wonder why anyone would want to do that. I've been using computers in one way or another since the '60's and have yet to encounter a need for this gibberish. Now, I know it has its place, but I've never needed it, nor, apparently, have the millions of "Winblows Idiots" to whom you refer. I submit they're all smarter than you, since they're not troubled by this at all. If explaining a "shuttle nosewhell" [sic] to a caveman were important work, I'm sure nearly any "Winblows Idiot" could do it as easily as running his spell-checker which you apparently can't do. It's like I said before, Raymond, to guys like you, making sense isn't as important as your hatred of Microsoft. It's obvious enough, but I don't know why it's got to be that way. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 02:14:27 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <001501c1e9b8$bcd03320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.42679.597404.552868@phaduka.neurotica.com> <00a201c1e9c7$1d4e02a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.47187.768451.483853@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Most of the people I've met who use UNIX/LINUX in their home-computing > pursuits do it because they've nothing better to do. You may not fit that > model, but these guys figure out ways to make their computers more secure, > more complicated to use, and often have to type for several minutes to find > out whether a copy of a file on their local hard drive is available on that > other box down the wire. When my machines are all turned on, I can do that in > less than 15 seconds, and that long only because I can't remember the file > name. This is the one of your trolls that I think I'll ignore. > I just want (1) for my computers to act in concert to present me with a > convenient interface and (2) for them to work as expected. They seem to do > that most of the time. In recent years my cars have been more reliable than > my computers, but that wasn't the case some years back when I used Detroit > iron. When my computers become as reliable as my telephone, which may happen > not because the computers get better but ... then I'll be happy enough, I I suppose I'm more demanding than to accept my computers working as expected "most of the time". My computers are much MORE reliable than my telephone. But then, I don't use PeeCees, and I don't run Windows. I suppose it's just an issue of personal/professional standards and expectations. If I had a hammer that randomly jumped off of my workbench and flew through a window, I'd throw it in the trash and get a better hammer. I did exactly that with my computer a very long time ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 02:14:53 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <004901c1e9c1$451a5c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.42928.441754.177179@phaduka.neurotica.com> <00a801c1e9c7$2e07a060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.47213.551700.296206@phaduka.neurotica.com> Oh, ok. It's late. :) -Dave On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That's my point, Dave! > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:03 AM > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous > in > > > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what > a > > > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of > > > > Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is > > no programmer at all. > > > > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > > computer programmers? > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > > > > > -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 02:22:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220622.CAA08914@conman.org> Message-ID: <00df01c1e9ce$6cbf5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:22 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > I'm reworking the quoting here, since the Great Richard Erlacher seems > insistent upon leaving the quoted material below his response. > I haven't yet figured out what the preferred method is. > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Quoting R. D. Davis: > > > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > > > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, > > > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful > > > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > > > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > > > programs that run on UNIX systems. > > > > I've never gotten one iota of use from any of the tools you mention, though, I > > have a "friendlified" version of EMACS. These are all development-related > > tools. Software development only qualifies as useful work in the rare case > > that you're involved in software development. > > Of the programs mentioned, od, C, Perl, shell scripts and lint are > defintely developer tools, awk, nawk (which are nearly the same thing), > grep, sed and diff may appear to be developer tools but do have their uses > elsewhere. tar, ed, cal, at and bc are general purpose tools and while some > (like tar and ed) can be used in a devopment capacity, I personally, in the > 10 years or so of Unix development I've personally done, have ever used cal, > at or bc as a developer. > > Emacs again, can be used for development, but it is a general text editor > (and a programmable one at that). TeX/LaTeX is only used in development if > you use the WEB programming environment that Donald Knuth uses---otherwise > it's a typesetting program that does a better job at output than Microsoft > Word does, and dvips is a program to convert TeX/LaTeX output files and > convert them to PostScript. ghostview is for displaying PostScript files on > the screen, gimp is an image manipulation program (like Photoshop, and I > don't know many software developers that use it, other than the programmers > working on Photoshop and/or the Gimp), xv is an image viewer and PostgreSQL > and Oracle are databases and used by a wider audience than just developers. > > But to catagorize all of them as ``development-related tools'' is a > disingenious thing to say. > disingenuous, is what you mean, isn't it? Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? That was once a popular format, but things change. > > Even in hardware development, the > > software is a burden. It's a burden on the cost of other goods and services. > > What does this even mean? > It simply means that if you have to generate software that's not what your main product line is, it's overhead. If you're a school system and you have to write your own code to manipulate the test score records demanded by the legislature, that's an overhead item, since it doesn't contribute to the process of educating the kids. If you're a hardware developer and you have to write a compiler for the CPU you've designed into the gate array you're going to ship, that's overhead that adds to the systemic burden, yet doesn't increase the price you can get for your product. Unless you're selling software, generating software is a cost, not a benefit. > > > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of > > grep for a list of, say, 100 words and phrases. When he complains after about > > a week that he's not made much progress, THEN ask him what a regular > > expression is. > > And what does this have to do with anything? Anyone that is familiar with > how Unix works and can use grep can probably use grep on a list of 100 words > or phrases without much problem. Giving the same problem to someone not > familiar with UNIX and yes, you'll get complaints. Heck, stick me with a > Windows box and IIS to configure and I'll be lost for a week and wanting to > know why we can't use Apache instead? > I'm not sure you're at all right about that. I'm saying that what passes as a programmer these days is somewhat less than advertised. Few can read an article and articulate what it was about, and fewer can write a meaningful synopsis of what they've read. Virtually none know how to get from one end of a piece of work of any kind to the other, and I've yet to meet even one that effectively demonstrated his ability to perform to a precise specification. > > -spc (Or why Windows has to be rebooted after making a network change, > or a program has been installed, or removed, or the mouse moved > too much, or ... ) > It's not required in all cases, though the system may want to do it. You just have to figure out for yourself what the case is, since nobody at MS can tell you. They're all programmers, doncha know ... > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 02:27:57 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Richard Erlacher) References: <200204220622.CAA08914@conman.org> <00df01c1e9ce$6cbf5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15555.47997.195702.799803@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? > That was once a popular format, but things change. Uhh, what? What color is the sky in your world, Dick? Postscript is The Way Things Are Done for high-end output. Even on PeeCees. Let me guess...you're saying this because YOU don't have a Postscript printer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 02:28:37 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204220620.g3M6Kqa06531@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > It will be a cold day in hell before I let any perl code on any of my > > mainframes. A lot of stuff I use on the mainframe doesn't have any > > equivalent in the UNIX world. > > Linux zseriespenguins.ihost.com 2.2.16 #2 SMP Tue Jun 5 20:00:56 EDT 2001 s390 > > [root /]# cat /proc/cpuinfo > vendor_id : IBM/S390 > > [root@l007098 /]# perl --version > This is perl, version 5.005_03 built for s390-linux > > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes Your point is? Peace... Sridhar From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 22 02:29:20 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15555.44567.478165.493519@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <200204220620.g3M6Kqa06531@Fubar.nop.org> <15555.44567.478165.493519@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200204220729.g3M7TLa06802@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 22 April 2002 01:30, you wrote: > On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes > > This frightens me. > > -Dave The 60 Billion fold increase in function ? 08:18:29 QUERY ALL 08:18:29 RDR 00C INT REQ 08:18:29 RDR 00C STARTED SYSTEM 08:18:29 RDR 00C READING FILE = 0001 08:18:29 PUN 00D STARTED SYSTEM CLASS = P SEP 08:18:29 PRT 00E STARTED SYSTEM CLASS = CALT SEP 08:18:29 GRAF 040 LOGON AS MAINT 08:18:29 GRAF 041 LOGON AS OPERATOR Or do you think the above is what the mainframe should be limited to ? Or the wonderfullness of mvs and tso ? 00003 JOBS 00006 INITIATORS 00000 TIME SHARING USERS 00000 ACTIVE 00008 MAX VTAM TSO USERS With wonderfull error messages like - TSU 5 IEF450I HERC01 IKJACCNT TSOLOGON - ABEND S522 U0000 - I mean .. comm on Mr Luddite ... linux is the best thing s390 has seen since CP/CMS showed up and to replicate the function of scripting languages .. dont you use REXX at least ? Common man ... did you lock yourself in a glass house with a 360/67 and are still hiding from tha man ? Things have been happening out here, we have had this factor called "progress",, there has been advancement ! Raymond From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 02:31:51 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <15555.44567.478165.493519@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes > > This frightens me. I'll bet sysadmins will start uttering interesting phrases when VM kills entire virtual boxes because there are perl scripts taking up more resources than the system deems they should. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 22 02:35:35 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: Doc "Re: Network Hub selection help needed" (Apr 22, 1:12) References: Message-ID: <10204220835.ZM29741@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 22, 1:12, Doc wrote: > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > By commercial grade I just meant that I wanted to avoid the home grade > > stuff that may not have features, or only a few connections. The type > > of thing that Best Buy, Staples, or another cunsumer oriented store may > > carry for your average Windows user. > > Amazingly, the home grade stuff that's on the shelves lately really is > plenty for a home net. The features it doesn't have are next to useless > on a network with fewer than 25 nodes. > Stay away from the firewall appliances though. They're notoriously > easy to get through. Agreed on both counts. > > What's the difference between managed and unmanaged? > > A serial port, a password, and several decimal points. That's about it :-) > Seriously, a managed switch allows you to define which nodes can "go" > where, force connection parameters - 10Mb or 100, full-duplex or half - > keep transfer statistics, etc. A really good one will cost over a > grand. Like I said, I have one, and I prefer my little $70 NetGear > 10/100 auto-sensing switch. Unless you're really into networks for their own sake, or have a big enough one that you need to monitor and manage it remotely, plug-in-and-go is better. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 22 02:28:03 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?" (Apr 21, 22:05) References: <20020421220542.A21398@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <10204220828.ZM29735@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21, 22:05, Derek Peschel wrote: > It has been my mission for some time to bring a BBC Micro back from > England. I would need some way to adapt British plugs to US sockets > and convert the voltage, and I would also need a PAL monitor. (No, I > don't want black-and-white NTSC. Yes, I could bring a montior back from > England along with the computer. I'm not sure if I want to do that.) Some of the Beeb PSUs have a jumper to change from 220/240V to 110/120. You probably don't want a PAL monitor, but you probably do want an RGB one that can handle 625 lines (15.something kHz horizontal and 50Hz vertical). > Does anyone have experience with these things? I am hoping to save > money ($500 would be above the top of my price range) but I don't want > to fry anything either. > > Oh yes, and if anyone has an extra Beeb hanging around that would be > nice too. They're not uncommon here. I bet one of us Brits could find one cheaply for you, if we knew when you were coming over and where you'd be. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 22 02:28:00 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed In-Reply-To: Chad Fernandez "Re: Network Hub selection help needed" (Apr 22, 1:21) References: <3CC25D76.9080005@internet1.net> <10204211253.ZM28525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3CC39DCF.5000504@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10204220828.ZM29731@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 22, 1:21, Chad Fernandez wrote: > By commercial grade I just meant that I wanted to avoid the home grade > stuff that may not have features, or only a few connections. The type > of thing that Best Buy, Staples, or another cunsumer oriented store may > carry for your average Windows user. Ah, well there aren't all that many features to distinguish a dumb hub (or switch) from another dumb hub (or switch). Number of ports, whether it supports autosensing 10/100, internal or external PSU, noise level (ones with internal PSUs often have a fan), colour of the box, and that's about it. Some low-end devices are more reliable than others, of course. > > If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most of the > > second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother looking for > > IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And > > Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. > > > > What's the difference between managed and unmanaged? Unmanaged means a dumb device that has no configuration settings, provides no stats, and has no address of its own. A managed hub or switch will have it's own IP (and/or IPX address, rarely DECnet or Appletalk) and will usually support SNMP (the Simple Network Management Protocol) and/or some kind of web interface. That will allow remote configuration of things like IP address, spanning tree settings (if it's a switch), port settings (enabled or not, half/full/auto/duplex, 10/100/auto, etc), VLANs (if it's a modern switch), and monitoring and interrogation of internal data (byte/packet/collision/error counts on ports, port state, MAC address(es) last seen on each port). The management costs a lot extra. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 02:40:17 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <00e501c1e9d0$f2bc9880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I wouldn't either. I'm not sure that you can go and get an education anymore. I recently read that a pretty large proportion of Harvard graduates graduate with honors becuase of grade inflation. I know that in the public schools, where an 'A' once was awarded for >93%, a 'B' for 86..92. and so on, and a 70, which was the lowest 'D' once upon a time (when I was in high school) now is a solid 'C.' Back when I was in high school, a score of 800 on one or the other of the SAT's was a rare event that didn't occur every year in a school system in a city of half-a-million or so. Nowadays, with the obviously much-lowered standards, it happens all the time. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:20 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Friendlier OS' (e.g. Windows) have equivalent tools that are less onerous in > > the demands they place on the user. Just ask the typical programmer what a > > "regular expression" is. Better yet, give him a task requiring the use of > > grep for a list of, say, 100 words and phrases. When he complains after about > > a week that he's not made much progress, THEN ask him what a regular > > expression is. > > *I* wouldn't call them a programmer if they couldn't figure that out. I'd > tell them to go back to school and get a *real* education. F*ck, I'm a > junior in CompE at Purdue and am pretty good at playing with RegExp's. > Just because a person says they're a programmer doesn't make them one. > Would you like to have your surgeon tell you 'I don't know exactly how to > stich you up, so I'm going to have my mother sew you up'? A programmer > that doesn't understand simple concepts like RegExp's shouldn't be trying > to program. Period. > > -- Pat > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 02:43:05 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) (Raymond Moyers) References: <200204220620.g3M6Kqa06531@Fubar.nop.org> <15555.44567.478165.493519@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200204220729.g3M7TLa06802@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <15555.48905.50567.948401@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: > Things have been happening out here, we have had this > factor called "progress",, there has been advancement ! Oh Christ. Yes, progress...with Perl...to completely unreadable, unmaintainable, unbearably slow code. No, thanks. I'll also pass on the flame war...I've already been trolled enough for one night. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 02:47:41 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204220729.g3M7TLa06802@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes > > > > This frightens me. > > > > -Dave > > The 60 Billion fold increase in function ? > > 08:18:29 QUERY ALL > 08:18:29 RDR 00C INT REQ > 08:18:29 RDR 00C STARTED SYSTEM > 08:18:29 RDR 00C READING FILE = 0001 > 08:18:29 PUN 00D STARTED SYSTEM CLASS = P SEP > 08:18:29 PRT 00E STARTED SYSTEM CLASS = CALT SEP > 08:18:29 GRAF 040 LOGON AS MAINT > 08:18:29 GRAF 041 LOGON AS OPERATOR > > Or do you think the above is what the mainframe > should be limited to ? > > Or the wonderfullness of mvs and tso ? > 00003 JOBS 00006 INITIATORS > 00000 TIME SHARING USERS > 00000 ACTIVE 00008 MAX VTAM TSO USERS > > With wonderfull error messages like > - TSU 5 IEF450I HERC01 IKJACCNT TSOLOGON - ABEND S522 U0000 - > > I mean .. comm on Mr Luddite ... linux is the best thing s390 has > seen since CP/CMS showed up > > and to replicate the function of scripting languages .. > dont you use REXX at least ? But REXX isn't a big stinking pile of crap. And I use a whole lot of JCL. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 22 02:48:38 2002 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: duh Message-ID: <15555.49238.104348.352721@phaduka.neurotica.com> Ignore that. It's late. -Dave -- Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." St. Petersburg, FL -Den From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 22 03:24:57 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204220824.g3M8Ov006979@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 22 April 2002 02:31, you wrote: > > > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes > > This frightens me. > I'll bet sysadmins will start uttering interesting phrases when VM kills > entire virtual boxes because there are perl scripts taking up more > resources than the system deems they should. And those business procs go down the BOFH that killed em will be looking for a new job ... There are over 10,000 Linux sessions on the machine @ http://linux390.nop.org 1000's opon 1000's of compiles benches test suites going all at once ... As for resources [root /root]# w 4:15am up 153 days, 11:44, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT root pts/0 fubar Sun 6am 21:23m 0.03s 0.03s -bash root pts/1 fubar 4:15am 0.00s 0.04s 0.01s w all of the 10's of 1000's of sessions have run un interrupted far as we can tell [root/root]# free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 127408 75860 51548 42796 47048 18360 That my small "piece" of the mainframe .. 128m of ram and a portion of one CPU. Perhaps you refer to a bonehead oper who wouldnt know how to set limits on the guests so that 1000's opon 1000s of of them can suck all the cpu they are allowed and still be playing nicly with all the others .. I see a faint image of a red herring starting to appear. Raymond From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 03:46:09 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220648.CAA08986@conman.org> Message-ID: <012301c1e9da$26ab7e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Dave McGuire said: > > > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > > > computer programmers? > > > > That's my point, Dave! This comment applies to the sentence before that, which was, " Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is no programmer at all." > > I'm not sure what your point is. Do you *want* a future full of > nontechnical computer programmers? Are you bemoaning a future of > nontechnical computer programmers? What? I can't quite pin down exactly > what you are trying to get across here. > For sure, you've missed it. However, there are so many "technical types" who graduate from school never having read any more than Cliff's Notes of the classics, never having learned to form a logical argument, never having learned the principles of critical thinking, never having learned to read, write, or spell... ( not that they CAN'T read, but they just DON'T, and not to suggest they can't draw letters on the paper, but they haven't learned how to structure a premise because they've not read how others have done it.) Programmers have to be rigorous in their logic and very structured in their work discipline. With experience, they learn to plan a piece of work such that they aren't always tearing things up and reworking them. They don't need to be terribly technical, though that's a laugh, since nontechnical types would have neither the inclination nor the discipline to get the job done. > > -spc (You are saying that Unix is too hard to use, and Windows is easier > to use, but you rant against computers that can't be used at all, > so you *want* nontechnical computer programmers? I'm confused ... ) > Maybe that UNIX is too unfriendly, but I don't remember any mention of computers that can't be used at all, and don't see how they fit into the subject matter. As for what I'd *want* in a programmer, I'd want someone who knows how to do a job from start to finish and how to ensure his work is correct and complete, without fail. I'd want someone who shows up prepared to work and stays long enough to do it. I'd want someone literate so I don't have to read and explain things to him. I'd want someone who can write a coherently structured work, not one that follows "stream of consciousness" as many want to do, and I'd want someone who takes responsibility for his work, defends his territory, and remains committed to his assigned task. If he knows how to program, that's nice. It takes a lot less time to teach someone, who knows how to work, to program than it does to teach someone, claiming to know how to program, to work. I don't understand this last question of yours. It's clear you are confused. I'm just curious why. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 03:15:33 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:56 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220642.CAA08976@conman.org> Message-ID: <012201c1e9da$264ff080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:42 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > > > [1] For various values of documented. Using only the documentation that > > > comes with Microsoft Word (hardcopy or the help files) can someone > > > be reasonably expected to learn how to use Word? > > > > I'd say so. My 80+ year-old mother did. > > Well, kudos to her then. > > > > Seems like books on *using* software is crowding out books about > > > *writing* software at the bookstores. And to me, that says that > > > the documentation that comes with software is so lacking that a > > > market of third party documentation is viable. So I might contend > > > that your assertion of ``better documented'' is invalid. This first conclusion is flawed, methinks. The second may be valid, but I don't thing the third follows. It's true that there are lots of books on how to use various software applications. Having lots of them is good because people will want to use the software in different ways and not always in the same way. Programmers should read these books so they know how programs are used. They should also read them to find out how useful a helpful error or diagnostic message can help. As for the quality of documentation, I've found statements in Linux documents that were so outdated as to be patently false, having omitted critical terms such as "NOT." > > If programmers knew what computers were intended to do, perhaps they could > > figure out what to do with them. I'd say a goodly share of what passes as > > software today, including that from Microsoft, does nothing at all related to > > what the user thinks it should do, based on the writeups. Further, I'd guess > > that at least half of the programmers who have worked on a given piece of > > software, whether for UNIX or Windows, can't agree on what it is supposed to > > do. Additionally, I'd guess that, of the half that agree on what the program > > is intended to do, half can't tell you whether it does that, and of that half, > > another half can't tell you what their own code was intended to do or whether > > it does that. > > Setting: my office at a webhosting company I used to work for. > Boss/partner comes in. > > ``Sean, can we do blah?'' he asks. > > I think about it for a few moments. Doing blah would require this, that > and the other thing and it would take a while to get done, but ... ``Yes, I > think that's possible.'' > > ``Good,'' he says. ``I just sold blah to a customer so we need it by > tomorrow.'' > > Repeat that story any number of times at any number of software companies. > > Or how about: > > ``Oh, the customer wants the program to do yada yada instead of blah > blah.'' > > ``But I thought we agreed that we implement blah blah and only blah > blah?'' > > ``But the customer now wants yada yada.'' > > ``Okay, but you just threw out foo months of work.'' > > ``Oh, and we're still bound by the original deadline.'' > > And you wonder why software is so crappy? > No, I don't wonder. This situation can't be blamed on the mangers either, though, because the programmers shouldn't tolerate this. I've jumped more than one manager when, as chief engineer, or engineering lead, I overheard the mgr, seemingly perched like a vulture on the programmer's shoulder said, "can you do this?" to which the programmer says, "yes ... but..." and before he finishes the mgr hits him with, "well, how long will it take?" and so on until the programmer has consented to perform 256 hours' work in the next week, without letting any of his previous assignments slip. This was always of concern to me when I was responsible for schedule and budget, not to mention morale. One ExVP ultimately fired me, in part because I jumped him every time he did that because he was so accustomed to it. He simply beat on the guy he wanted to do the work until he told him what he wanted to hear. If programmers would say, "OK, I can do that if you don't mind a slip of ... on this item and a slip of ... on that one, plus 80 hours of overtime, which I'll want as comp so I can regain my sanity before getting back into the harness. Another thing managers hate is a memo asking them to spell out the task assignments they've made without consulting with senior engineering. > > We programmers can't agree on what to do because management, sales, or > even the customer can't agree on what they want. Microsoft is successful > partly because they have the resources to change on a dime, partly because > they control 90% of the consumer desktop market and can dictate what we > want, and partly because they have a marketing department from Hell. > There'll always be disgreement on what's wanted, until it's written down and signed. If you can, get your boss to write you a "statement of work" which includes your precise requirements including test criteria and schedule. Usually schedule and workload can be adjusted early in the project, so if it doesn't suit you, or, if, early in the progress of the work, you discover a serious obstacle, that can be dealt with rationally. If you just quietly go away, letting him plan his schedule on your acceptance of his schedule and task loading, it's on you. If he doesn't allow you any input, it's on him, and you should emphasize those issues in a memo. It won't help either of you to pretend the problem doesn't exist. > > Tell you what, I'll spec a program for you to write that will take, say, > six months. Two months from now I'll add some unreasonable features and the > following month, change the specs completely on you, and still hold you > responsible for the original deadline. Oh, and in month five, I'll add even > more contradictory features, and two weeks before the deadline, add the > condition that you have to support the original spec as well. > > Does that sound okay? > > > For weeks, I've been looking for a line-by-line assembler to run on an 805x > > CPU. I've asked in a number of lists, newsgroups, etc, and gotten numerous > > replies, all of which has convinced me that of the hundreds of millions of > > people out there who fancy themselves as programmers, fewer than 1ppm even > > know what a debug monitor is. > > Um ... you asked for a line-by-line assembler, but you really wanted a > debug monitor ... um ... so why didn't you ask for a debug monitor in the > first place? > No ... I already have a debug monitor, in fact a half-dozen of them, but I want to build one with a line-by-line assembler, like what was in all the ones on which I cut my teeth. The CP/M DDT or MSDOS DEBUG is an example. Every one of the early Motorola MCU's was supported with at least one, but often several useable debug monitors, each of which had a line-by-line assembler/disassembler, so you could patch code in mnemonics rather than having to hand-assemble your code (you learned to do that quickly enough anyway). What I wanted was some source code examples in native code for the 805x core, so I could examine them to see whether any of them could benefit from the features and facilities of the disassembler already on hand. Since I'm planning to make some considerable enhancements to take advantage of the features of a newer version of the device, I'm wanting to get the available stuff together and study it out before I put it together. > > > Back a few years, an assembler wasn't considered complete unless it could > > assemble itself, and, likewise, a compiler wasn't complete until it could > > compile itself. Today's tools won't do that in most cases. I think the > > problem is that people don't know how to specify and how to finish a piece of > > work. It's certainly true of most programmers that they simply don't adhere > > to specifications based solely on design requirements. Many CAN do that, but > > most won't. I'm not sure what, exactly, this means, but I suspect some > > profound truth relating to the general decay of the computer software we see > > these days owes its origins to it. > > I think programmers can adhere to specifications based solely on design > requirements *when they don't change!* I have a friend that will *only* > program to the specifications and he demands that they don't change *at all* > or he won't do the work. And yes, he's gotten into some heated discussions > with clients about that. But he can say that he has followed the spec to > the letter, on time and within budget. > > -spc (Oh, forgot to tell you ... I won't tell you the specs at all, but > that shouldn't affect the time schedule any ... ) > Perhaps the programmers should simply refuse to work that way, rather than abjectly refusing to adhere to formal specifications, established policies, etc. Either way, they're likely to be fired when all is said and done. There's plenty of blame to go around, but if people would concentrate on doing their jobs properly, things would improve. Too many guys focus on being a standout rather than doing the work they were hired to do. If your manager is really fiddling with your work assignment to such extent that you can't work in a rigorous way, and if he's not willing to write down the reuirements he expects you to meet, then it's time to write him a memo with a copy to his boss. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 04:04:32 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <001501c1e9b8$bcd03320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><15555.42679.597404.552868@phaduka.neurotica.com><00a201c1e9c7$1d4e02a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.47187.768451.483853@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001201c1e9dc$b7e37a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 1:14 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Most of the people I've met who use UNIX/LINUX in their home-computing > > pursuits do it because they've nothing better to do. You may not fit that > > model, but these guys figure out ways to make their computers more secure, > > more complicated to use, and often have to type for several minutes to find > > out whether a copy of a file on their local hard drive is available on that > > other box down the wire. When my machines are all turned on, I can do that in > > less than 15 seconds, and that long only because I can't remember the file > > name. > > This is the one of your trolls that I think I'll ignore. > > > I just want (1) for my computers to act in concert to present me with a > > convenient interface and (2) for them to work as expected. They seem to do > > that most of the time. In recent years my cars have been more reliable than > > my computers, but that wasn't the case some years back when I used Detroit > > iron. When my computers become as reliable as my telephone, which may happen > > not because the computers get better but ... then I'll be happy enough, I > > I suppose I'm more demanding than to accept my computers working as > expected "most of the time". My computers are much MORE reliable than > my telephone. But then, I don't use PeeCees, and I don't run Windows. > I suppose it's just an issue of personal/professional standards and > expectations. If I had a hammer that randomly jumped off of my > workbench and flew through a window, I'd throw it in the trash and get > a better hammer. I did exactly that with my computer a very long time > ago. > I'd throw that hammer away, too. I've not had that sort of experience with my computers, however. I've had the heads break off hammers when I was using them, and I've whacked my thumb from time to time. I can't blame the hammer all the time, though. I have had many years of positive experience with telephone systems. I've had fewer than five days of no-service or unuseable service in the 30+ years during which I've had my own phone(s). In the past two years, since we've had our service taken over by Qwest, the service has become noticeably worse, but overall, it's still not bad with <5 days in 10,000 of system failure overall. Can you show me a computer that's had only 5 days' downtime in 30 years? PC's don't do that well either. I'm also willing to accept part of the blame for the occasional failure. I once tripped over a power cord, causing a shutdown. There have been times when I did something stupid, requiring a file be restored from a backup or the like. Remember, I'm coming from a background with Sun hardware/software that was unavailable 8-10 days per month due to software patch side-effects and other causes having to do with the OS. That's the basis of my *nix aversion. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 04:05:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220622.CAA08914@conman.org><00df01c1e9ce$6cbf5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15555.47997.195702.799803@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001801c1e9dc$eb59eaa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've had one for years, but I loaned it to my neighbor about 7 years ago and haven't missed it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 1:27 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 22, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? > > That was once a popular format, but things change. > > Uhh, what? What color is the sky in your world, Dick? Postscript > is The Way Things Are Done for high-end output. Even on PeeCees. > > Let me guess...you're saying this because YOU don't have a > Postscript printer. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire "Mmmm. Big." > St. Petersburg, FL -Den > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 04:36:53 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: The Unit (was: One-upsmanship (was: Secret Mac)) In-Reply-To: <200204211652.JAA12890@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020421164305.02891e78@kerberos.davies.net.au> from Huw Davies at "Apr 21, 2002 04:45:18 pm" Message-ID: <3CC3F5D5.51.30BA32D6@localhost> > > >That does _NOT_ explain why the base unit is called the kilogram (it's > > >the name I am objecting to, and the way that multiples/submultiples are > > >named [1]). > > My understanding for using the Kg rather than g is that it cuts down on the > > number of zeros needed. Most real world things we weigh are a more Kg like > > than g. For example, a VAX-8800 might weigh 400Kg, which is 400,000g > > (there's a good chance of losing one of those zeros). > Haven't been paying too much attention to the thread, but I have to chime in > that astronomers don't use the SI (aka MKS (meters, kilograms, seconds)) > standard units, but use CGS (centimeter, gram, seconds) based units. > Of course, astronomers always have too many zeros. It doesn't really > matter if a parsec is 3.09x10^18 cm or 3.09x10^16 m. Excuse me ? cm/g/s is still the SI. > Where is does get confusing is electric charge. In CGS, the charge of > an electron is 4.8x10^-10 electrostatic units (e.s.u.). An e.s.u. is > one g^(1/2) cm^(3/2) s^(-1). Still the same, since we are talking derivated units. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 05:12:43 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204220824.g3M8Ov006979@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > [root /root]# w > 4:15am up 153 days, 11:44, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT > root pts/0 fubar Sun 6am 21:23m 0.03s 0.03s -bash > root pts/1 fubar 4:15am 0.00s 0.04s 0.01s w Do you honestly see Perl improving these numbers? FYI, I *own* an S/390 G5. I've *run* it. I know *exactly* what one can do. Peace... Sridhar From flori_m at gmx.net Mon Apr 22 06:09:47 2002 From: flori_m at gmx.net (Florian Mayer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Futuredata 2300 Message-ID: Hi, I've got such a FutureData System with 8085 CPU. It's modell type is 2300-9402. It's with an 8 ich double floppy drive and some cards. The cases (especially from the floppy) are strongly scratched. The CPU seem to work, it shows the FutureData logo and a Prompt ( > ) on the screen but nothing else. I have no idea what it is or what I can do with it. Where can I find an operating system for it? Please help me. Greetings from Germany, Flori From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 22 06:19:45 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <000701c1e9ef$9bf1b890$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Many would put OS/360 in that category. > > Some CDC 6600 OSs (I think NOS, maybe others) have permanent and > temporary files. If your batch job ends and you haven't made your > temporary files permanent, they will be gone. This unintuitive feature > persisted after CDC added an interactive terminal interface to the > underlying batch functionality. You could call that dangerous to data > (and I wouldn't disagree with you). > > I hope I haven't messed up those facts... someone will > probably correct me if I have. Doug Q.? NOS 1 followed Kronos by providing the TELEX subsystem for interactive use. TELEX provided an environment modeled a lot after the ones found inside BASIC interpreters, namely, you issue commands like OLD, NEW, RUN, etc... In fact, that was TELEX's primary purpose in life. It also provided a "batch" mode where you would simply type control- cards one at a time. But most everyone use the interactive modes. As to the file modes being counterintutive, they're really not, once you hold you head the right way... Just as in DEC-10 or other BASICs, if you typed NEW, a LOCAL file was created. Anythying you typed following a line number because part of the local file's contents. Of course, if you type a program in, and didn't type SAVE prior to logout, the file would be lost because you hadn't made it into a permanent file (PFILE). But as I say, this was the same was most BASIC interpreter environments worked,,, -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 22 06:36:22 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #927 Message-ID: <000f01c1e9f1$edfa2b70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I would also guess that older versions of AppleShare Server might have a > MacIP router built in. Apple must have offered a solution for it, I can't > believe they would provide all the client end tools and not have some way > of unwrapping it other than depending on a 3rd party program (which is > the only app I have seen that does it, but I am sure there must be > others). I can't recall if AppleShare IP 5.0 includes MacIP routing or not, but Apple bundled a product with it called Vicom Internet Gateway, which did/does include MacIP routing. -dq -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 06:53:30 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <20020421082609.A10827@eskimo.eskimo.com> References: <20020421151554.GA16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org>; from rdd@rddavis.org on Sun, Apr 21, 2002 at 11:15:54AM -0400 Message-ID: <3CC415DA.24530.3137498A@localhost> > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was called 2 (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by the Woz himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low level and the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely was more than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all over a period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or less the standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly seen as the first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 came around and the 16 sector format, picking up a development done for the UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you to change the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you wanted to use DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM all the time, or have at least two controllers, and boot via monitor (or basic) command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less unchanged from 3.2. So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors and 117 K to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple DOS 1 never supported files, because it didn't exist :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 22 07:38:08 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <00ae01c1e9fa$8f1505e0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> 6bits was the "byte" size for the PDP-8 (swap acc halves). 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 12 bits was link-8, PDP-8 and PDP-12 (likely others). 9/18 the pdp7 (first home of unix). -----Original Message----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:34 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) >It was thus said that the Great Ben Franchuk once stated: >> >> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >> >> > As for using non-8 bit byte based CPUs? Not really; I don't think I've >> > ever even come across any 9, 12, 18, 24, 36, 60 or 66 bit systems >> > *anywhere* and I'm one of the few programmers I know that's even *heard* of >> > such CPUs. Most programmers I suspect are only aware of the x86. >> What computer systems did you have in mind? >> 9 bit ???? >> 12 bit ???? > > I might have gotten a bit confused there. I know of systems that have had >9 bit characters, and some that have 12 bit address spaces but I'm sure that >if there were indeed, such things as a nine bit or twelve bit computer, >they'll be mentioned soon enough 8-/ > > -spc (But I do want to say the PDP-8 was a 12 bit system for some reason ... ) > > > From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Apr 22 07:45:02 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <20020422053309.GA17815@adams> Message-ID: > Well, I certainly would want to have one but I somehow doubt that paying > a lot of money for a piece of electronic equipment that is not useful > for anything today is sane. Additionally I figure that people who can > afford to pay that much and actually do so are not really serious > collectors by the standards of this list, they just want an investment. > > Thomas > > -- > Thomas S. Strathmann http://pdp7.org > RMS: NOOOOOObody expects the GNU Inquisition! Confess! Confess! Confess! The same could be said for anyone who collects anything that isn't used on a regular basis, be it cars, planes, old radios, fine china, ivory, stupid porcelin clowns, etc. --John From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 08:13:43 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: <00ae01c1e9fa$8f1505e0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CC428A7.30241.3180B735@localhost> > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, and 18 Bit integers. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 22 08:30:56 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204220620.g3M6Kqa06531@Fubar.nop.org> from Raymond Moyers at "Apr 22, 2 01:20:51 am" Message-ID: <200204221330.GAA13076@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > [root /]# cat /proc/cpuinfo > vendor_id : IBM/S390 > > [root@l007098 /]# perl --version > This is perl, version 5.005_03 built for s390-linux > > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes Perhaps, but while Perl is convenient and I use it incessantly for many projects for which it does a good job, I suffer no illusions as to how comparatively poor its performance is (and this is relevant when the server is a 25MHz 68030). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Math according to Pentium: 2 / 2 = 1.037587439439485486372112039523781385 ... From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 08:31:18 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: <3CC428A7.30241.3180B735@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're right > about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, and > 18 Bit integers. I don't know about the /360, but the the /370 and /390 used 8-bit bytes, 32-bit words, and 31-bit (!) addressing. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 22 08:41:50 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) Message-ID: <000601c1ea03$778e4ae0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> I figured it might be IBM as they did some odd things over the years. Another that comes to mind is Interdata (not the 8/32), any one know on that one. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:26 AM Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) >> 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > >Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're >right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, >and 18 Bit integers. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/ From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Apr 22 08:38:32 2002 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204220605.CAA08853@conman.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > The only operating systems that I'm aware of that were made for the DEC > Alpha were VMS (or is that OpenVMS), ULTRIX, Linux and maybe a certain > version of Windows NT. There might have been another UNIX variant made for > the DEC Alpha but I'm not aware of what it could be. > There is one more OS which I am aware of that runs on Alpha: Meditech Magic. It is a proprietary standalone MUMPS OS which runs hospital applications for (mostly) smaller hospitals. It boots from the same console as Tru64/VMS but from there on is completely different. You need specific hardware, firmware versions and the like for it to function. Meditech has succumbed to the one OS future and is pushing Magic installations toward NT. There was also a version of proprietary Magic for Data General Intel hardware that took some special BIOS but I know next to nothing about that. -- From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 08:42:56 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <3CC415DA.24530.3137498A@localhost> Message-ID: <20020422134256.54586.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 installation, and I would say at first glance that you might think it was awful, but when you consider that it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, has highly "regular" commands, has installable device drivers, and has a large degree of device independence it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their severely limited resources, pretty darned good. --- Hans Franke wrote: > > > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. > > AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was > called 2 > (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by > the Woz > himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low > level and > the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely > was more > than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all > over a > period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or > less the > standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly > seen as the > first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 > came around > and the 16 sector format, picking up a development > done for the > UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you > to change > the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you > wanted to use > DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM > all the time, > or have at least two controllers, and boot via > monitor (or basic) > command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less > unchanged from 3.2. > So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors > and 117 K > to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). > > Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple > DOS 1 never > supported files, because it didn't exist :) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 08:45:36 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC428A7.30241.3180B735@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC43020.4645.319DE7ED@localhost> > > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're right > > about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, and > > 18 Bit integers. > I don't know about the /360, but the the /370 and /390 used 8-bit bytes, > 32-bit words, and 31-bit (!) addressing. Well, /360 16 Bit address /370 24 Bit address /390 24 or 31 Bit address All architectures had 8 Bit Bytes and 32 Bit Registers Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 09:01:05 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204221330.GAA13076@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Perhaps, but while Perl is convenient and I use it incessantly for > many projects for which it does a good job, I suffer no illusions as > to how comparatively poor its performance is (and this is relevant > when the server is a 25MHz 68030). The problem is that the kind of things mainframes are used for are *extremely* performance-critical. Peace... Sridhar From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Apr 22 09:01:18 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: <3CC428A7.30241.3180B735@localhost> Message-ID: You sure about the CDC-6600? The complete word length was 60 bits, and I seem to recall that for the purposes of characters, there were 10 6 bit characters stored per word. http://www.scd.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/cdc/6600.html The PPUs were 12 bitters. --John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:14 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email > response format)) > > > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're > right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, > and 18 Bit integers. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 09:13:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020422134256.54586.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01c1ea07$ddef4240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What sort of drives were the intended target of this OS? I had a colleague who had a couple of "DF32" drives for his PDP8E (wirewrapped CPU, BTW) which he was never able to utilize, and I've always wondered just how those drives, with their small capacity, fit into the scheme of things. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loboyko Steve" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 > installation, and I would say at first glance that you > might think it was awful, but when you consider that > it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, > has highly "regular" commands, has installable device > drivers, and has a large degree of device independence > it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing > about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their > severely limited resources, pretty darned good. > > --- Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. > > > > AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was > > called 2 > > (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by > > the Woz > > himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low > > level and > > the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely > > was more > > than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all > > over a > > period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or > > less the > > standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly > > seen as the > > first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 > > came around > > and the 16 sector format, picking up a development > > done for the > > UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you > > to change > > the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you > > wanted to use > > DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM > > all the time, > > or have at least two controllers, and boot via > > monitor (or basic) > > command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less > > unchanged from 3.2. > > So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors > > and 117 K > > to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). > > > > Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple > > DOS 1 never > > supported files, because it didn't exist :) > > > > Gruss > > H. > > > > -- > > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 09:24:36 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC428A7.30241.3180B735@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC43944.23555.31C19F0E@localhost> > > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're > > right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, > > and 18 Bit integers. > You sure about the CDC-6600? The complete word length was 60 bits, and I > seem to recall that for the purposes of characters, there were 10 6 bit > characters stored per word. > http://www.scd.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/cdc/6600.html The PPUs were 12 > bitters. Sorry, yes, I should think before writeing. Of course, the CDCs used weired 6 Bit teleype codings for character representation. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Apr 22 09:22:03 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship Message-ID: Well now, I just saw the NCSC at Urbana. Each air handler there (there are 2) is about the size of 4 semi trailers parked side-by-side. And talk about power usage: the building has a 2 megawatt line coming into it. -----Original Message----- From: Jay West [mailto:jwest@classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:01 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: One-upsmanship I think that certainly one of the criteria should be the HVAC required... "My computer requires more tons of AC cooling than yours" Jay West From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Apr 22 09:27:00 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? References: <20020421220542.A21398@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3CC41DB4.7A74C211@ccp.com> You could buy a 110-220 step-up transformer, and that usually has the european two prong plug built in. I myself would see if the power supply has a split primary for the mains power; then rewire/flip the switch for 110 operation and just use a US style power cord. Monitor: If it is an RGB with seperate outputs, the NTSC/PAL question is moot. I know that US RGB monitors for the Amiga will sync to PAL rates (625 lines, 50Hz) with no problems. The conflict arises only when the video is composite, as the color information is encoded differently. I have seen small converters for sale, that change PAL video to NTSC and vice versa. I've never seen how good/bad they work, but that is a viable alternative, if your only output is composite video. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO Derek Peschel wrote: > > It has been my mission for some time to bring a BBC Micro back from > England. I would need some way to adapt British plugs to US sockets > and convert the voltage, and I would also need a PAL monitor. (No, I > don't want black-and-white NTSC. Yes, I could bring a montior back from > England along with the computer. I'm not sure if I want to do that.) > > Does anyone have experience with these things? I am hoping to save > money ($500 would be above the top of my price range) but I don't want > to fry anything either. > > Oh yes, and if anyone has an extra Beeb hanging around that would be > nice too. > > -- Derek From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Apr 22 09:31:17 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: References: <20020421191158.GE16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20020422143117.GC39992@uiuc.edu> Doc said: > > Nah, most of us are code sluts. We run whatever works best on a given > platform. And if you want to see real OS attitude, put a Solaris admin > across the table from an AIX admin. Then step way back. I admin both. And also IRIX, Linux, and a little HP-UX. Should I be walking down the street twitching and arguing with myself, or something? ;) > > Doc - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Apr 22 09:32:16 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00ae01c1e9fa$8f1505e0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Allison wrote: > 6bits was the "byte" size for the PDP-8 (swap acc halves). > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > 12 bits was link-8, PDP-8 and PDP-12 (likely others). > 9/18 the pdp7 (first home of unix). Other 12 bit CPUs are the SDS 92 and the SCC 650... (and probably many more) > Always Kinda liked 12... Peter Wallace From tim at snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk Mon Apr 22 09:36:14 2002 From: tim at snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk (Tim Walls) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Network Hub selection help needed Message-ID: <01c1ea0b$0e631980$0a0a0a06@kafka.snowgoons.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Apr 21, 2:34, Chad Fernandez wrote: >> I'm finally going to work on hooking up a home network, so I guess I >> need a hub. What should I look for? I don't know much about networks >> yet. I have potentially 7 computers that I'd like to have connected. >> It'll need to be 10Base-T, but 100base-T may be involved too. I >> thought >> I'd look for something on Ebay, hopefully, not too expensive. Maybe >> something commercial grade, However. I thought about something >> from IBM >> or 3Com, any suggestions?? > >Go for autosensing 10/100baseT. If you're going to spend any amount of >money, you want to protect your investment by including 100baseT >capability >even if you don't need it right now. > >If you see a decent modern 3Com hub or switch, that's fine but most >of the >second-hand stuff I've seen is 10baseT only. I wouldn't bother >looking for >IBM. Baystack, 3Com, HP, Cisco are the ones you're likely to see. And >Netgear, which is almost entirely unmanaged kit, but quite good quality. My two pence worth... I'd not touch 3Com with a bargepole if I were you, particularly if it's "commercial grade" you're after. 3Com decided commercial customers weren't worth their bother some time ago. This is only a direct problem if their crock-of-!"?% CoreBuilder/SuperStack boxes bring down your entire network on a regular basis of course. And only a major problem if one of said boxes going down automatically crashes the so-called redundant failover. Unfortunately, 3Com equipment has satisfied both the above criteria too many times for my liking. That rant over with, more important piece of advice: If you go for a used HP switch, and it's advertised as 100Mb/s, make sure it is actually 100baseT you are getting. HP had their own standard (100VG) that will not work with 100baseT kit (at least some are 100VG only - they won't even downgrade to 10baseT.) If it's "commercial" stuff you're after (which I generally interpret as meaning 19" rackmount kit with redundant failover options and a whole host of SNMP security holes to close down before you can actually put into service,) then I'm afraid Cisco are a good bet. Other than that, I've got a Netgear hub at home that has never caused me a day of trouble. And it fits my criteria of being in a metal box :-). (IMHO, if the case is made of cheap plastic, then what's inside probably is as well...[*]) Alternatively, you could try building yourself a Teddy Borg: http://draco.mit.edu/teddyborg/ Cheers, Tim. [*] Cheap, that is. Not necessarily plastic. But probably ;-). -- Tim Walls at home in Croydon - Reply to tim@snowgoons.fsnet.co.uk From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Apr 22 09:37:32 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <002b01c1ea07$ddef4240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > What sort of drives were the intended target of this OS? I had a colleague > who had a couple of "DF32" drives for his PDP8E (wirewrapped CPU, BTW) which > he was never able to utilize, and I've always wondered just how those drives, > with their small capacity, fit into the scheme of things. > > Dick > Isn't the DF32 a 32 Kword fixed head drive? I think it was used for multi-user PDP8 systems (like a drum) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Loboyko Steve" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:42 AM > Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > > > I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 > > installation, and I would say at first glance that you > > might think it was awful, but when you consider that > > it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, > > has highly "regular" commands, has installable device > > drivers, and has a large degree of device independence > > it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing > > about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their > > severely limited resources, pretty darned good. > > > > --- Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > > > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. > > > > > > AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was > > > called 2 > > > (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by > > > the Woz > > > himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low > > > level and > > > the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely > > > was more > > > than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all > > > over a > > > period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or > > > less the > > > standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly > > > seen as the > > > first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 > > > came around > > > and the 16 sector format, picking up a development > > > done for the > > > UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you > > > to change > > > the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you > > > wanted to use > > > DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM > > > all the time, > > > or have at least two controllers, and boot via > > > monitor (or basic) > > > command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less > > > unchanged from 3.2. > > > So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors > > > and 117 K > > > to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). > > > > > > Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple > > > DOS 1 never > > > supported files, because it didn't exist :) > > > > > > Gruss > > > H. > > > > > > -- > > > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > Peter Wallace From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 09:59:37 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Thompson [mailto:thompson@mail.athenet.net] > CISC 9404 and 9402's that I have seen typically have crappy 150MB oem > Tandberg QIC tape drives. Supposedly they are very finicky with their > SCSI-I. I never bothered to do much with mine. > The disk drives (if not too small to be useful) can be > reformatted to 512 > byte sectors and used elsewhere. I am using an IBM 0661 now from an > AS/400 in a Netbsd DECstation 5000/260 as a second drive. As I said, this thing has two EMC RAID boxes in it. The drives in there are 80-pin SCA type SCSI disks. It also seems to have a tape library of unknown pedigree. It's also worth mentioning that I talked to a friend who used to work for this company that had the AS/400, and he had this to say: ----- oh, what can I tell you about it? Not much, like I said, i never monkeyed with it. It was a monstrous huge thing, a good 15 years old, I think. There was twinax wire running throughout the building, from when the staff had to access it via dumb terminals. Later they stuck a NIC on it somehow, and got TCP/IP running on it, I think, because the staff had a telnet-like client for hooking up to it. ----- Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 22 10:14:50 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) Message-ID: <000701c1ea10$73da0990$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > > > > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're > > > right about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, > > > and 18 Bit integers. > > You sure about the CDC-6600? The complete word length was 60 bits, and I > > seem to recall that for the purposes of characters, there were 10 6 bit > > characters stored per word. http://www.scd.ucar.edu/computers/gallery/cdc/6600.html > The PPUs were 12 bitters. > > Sorry, yes, I should think before writeing. Of course, > the CDCs used weired 6 Bit teleype codings for character > representation. The CDC 6000 Series and its follow-ons were machines that had a Central processor with a 60-bit word and Peripheral & Control Processors that had a 12-bit word (ignoring the 64-bit word and 16-bit words of the 180 Series). As most definitions of "byte" revolve around it being a basic unit of *storage*, I would point out that 12-bits was the smallest unit of storage that could be manipulated without shifting & masking. Its *character* size, therefore, being 6-bits, was different from its *byte* size... This made implementing a C compiler a large headache, I'm told... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 10:24:35 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > Just talk louder and be more persistent; they'll reach a point where ^^^^^^ More loudly ;) > they'll either listen or fire you; it the later, no great loss since > it doesn't sound like they're worth working for. Actually, aside from having no clue how to run their computer systems, they're really good people, and I like them. That's my dilemma. I put up with them because I really do like my job, and especially in the current market, that makes me very lucky. > > agreed to follow their rules, and will have to do that > until they make > > more sane rules. > Why? I'm at a loss as to how I can make things any more clear. :/ Sorry. > > In other words, when I took their job, I gave them > > my word. > You gave them your word that you'd act like a good little obedient > dimwit? Why would anyone promise to do that? I suggest that you > run emacs and invoke doctor ("M-x doctor") to get some help. ;-) Actually, I prefer the stand-alone eliza program. > One can always refuse to work with that Micro$oft rubbish. Perhaps you The other option is to do the best you can with the crap that they already have, and if (when!) that's ever not good enough, to explain exactly why. > could educate your employer's clients; tell them all about the big > mistakes that they're making by wanting to use that Micro$oft > virusware which is broken, and otherwise annoying, by design. Don't > mince words, tell it like it is, and tell them that no reasonably > intelligent computer hacker would work with that rubbish unless it was > as part of a project to change over to a UNIX system, or VMS, or even > CP/M... that is, changing over to a system that doesn't destroy data I have made it extremely clear in the past (... and yes, I used just these words) that "we'd be much better off using CP/M." I'll probably make that statement many more times, and I don't really expect they'll change anything because of it. Perhaps I can have some kind of influence on new projects during the initial design stage by voicing my objection to the use of any microsoft product. Again -- this time to them -- I have no idea how I can make it any more clear. > and do other peculiar things with files. Ask them why they like > operating systems that molest data... someone needs to make an "Eddy > Electron" like film, that's Monty Pythonish, called "Pfe$ter, the > Micro $oft Mole$ter," showing him doing strange things with bits of > data as they flow through the computer. Sort of an "educational" film, like "Data Flows Red on The Hard Disk?" Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Apr 22 10:27:53 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Network Finds In-Reply-To: <012c01c1e976$b8a63e80$66000240@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at "Apr 21, 2002 03:54:24 pm" Message-ID: <200204221527.IAA08670@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > I hope to start hooking up a mix of hardware very soon and have over the > last week picked up a Linksys Fast Ethernet 5-Port Workgroup Hub model > FEHUB05W ($2.92), a Linksys EtherFast cable/DSL Router model BEFSR41 > ($20), and a Katron 10BASE-T Ethernet hub 8 Plus model Hub/8 ($10) and > now have tofigure which to use? You got some good deals. The BEFSR41 is a switch with a built in firewall and DHCP server. Setup is web based. Does either hub have a 10B2 connection? Here's how I would set it up.... Internet-----BEFSR41--------HUB---------10B2 | | | | | | 100BT 10BT machines machines (full duplex) From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 22 10:33:33 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads Message-ID: <000f01c1ea13$10a12900$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > John Foust wrote: > > > Or for that matter, the seven "heads" could be displaced > > along the path of the tape, and the software would handle > > the realignment of the time domain. Or you could read > > less than 7 tracks at a time, and reassemble in software. > > Nope --- I would guess a 7 track head is needed, as you only get one > time to read the tape. Ben- watcha mean? I've shoeshined 9-tracks to death on one drive, then handed them to someone else who read them first pass on a different drive. Maybe 7-track tapes from 1961, but so far I've got nothing older than about 1972... -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 10:34:35 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Luser s) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > of course millions claiming to be system programmers and ...don't get me started on this one.. ;) > promote the interests of the Microsoft-haters, however right > or wrong they may FWIW, I believe they're right. I count myself among the "microsoft haters," and have no (absolutely none...) microsoft products, paid for or otherwise on any computer in my home. The computers at work, however, are not mine to do with as I please, and if they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation. :) > is concerned. Since giving bad advice can make you liable, > while being stupid > enough to follow such advice can not, I'd be really careful > about dispensing > such advice. Don't get me started on that either. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 10:39:57 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <00af01c1e9bd$84d61d40$882ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. Nope! He'd just throw it out with other useless oddities like his Honus Wagner baseball card. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 10:49:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:57 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <003501c1ea15$39e4e700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I really wouldn't know. I remember being shown the drives, which were very large and cumbersome considering the small capacity. One's conception of such things changes over time, though, doesn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > What sort of drives were the intended target of this OS? I had a colleague > > who had a couple of "DF32" drives for his PDP8E (wirewrapped CPU, BTW) which > > he was never able to utilize, and I've always wondered just how those drives, > > with their small capacity, fit into the scheme of things. > > > > Dick > > > > Isn't the DF32 a 32 Kword fixed head drive? I think it was used for multi-user > PDP8 systems (like a drum) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Loboyko Steve" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:42 AM > > Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > > > > > > I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 > > > installation, and I would say at first glance that you > > > might think it was awful, but when you consider that > > > it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, > > > has highly "regular" commands, has installable device > > > drivers, and has a large degree of device independence > > > it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing > > > about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their > > > severely limited resources, pretty darned good. > > > > > > --- Hans Franke wrote: > > > > > > > > > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. > > > > > > > > AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was > > > > called 2 > > > > (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by > > > > the Woz > > > > himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low > > > > level and > > > > the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely > > > > was more > > > > than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all > > > > over a > > > > period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or > > > > less the > > > > standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly > > > > seen as the > > > > first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 > > > > came around > > > > and the 16 sector format, picking up a development > > > > done for the > > > > UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you > > > > to change > > > > the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you > > > > wanted to use > > > > DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM > > > > all the time, > > > > or have at least two controllers, and boot via > > > > monitor (or basic) > > > > command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less > > > > unchanged from 3.2. > > > > So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors > > > > and 117 K > > > > to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). > > > > > > > > Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple > > > > DOS 1 never > > > > supported files, because it didn't exist :) > > > > > > > > Gruss > > > > H. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > > > > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > > > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 22 10:48:34 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20020422174834.A5275@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:03:13AM -0400, R. D. Davis wrote: > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > following? [various Unix PRGs [1]] You are ignorant. (Sorry) There are other systems beyond Unix that can provide a powerfull work environement. e.g. VMS. Sometimes I feel sad about the fact that these days are only two classes of OS are left: Windows and *ix. Even MacOS (X) is mostly *ix. Where are alternatives like VMS, Genera, a "native" Smalltalk system...? [1] Yes, I know that e.g. EMACS and TeX originates from the PDP10 and is / was no native *ix programm. Similar for Kermit. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 10:54:27 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <004701c1ea15$fb78df20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's a sad state of affairs, isn't it? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:34 AM Subject: RE: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > of course millions claiming to be system programmers and > > ...don't get me started on this one.. ;) > > > promote the interests of the Microsoft-haters, however right > > or wrong they may > > FWIW, I believe they're right. I count myself among the > "microsoft haters," and have no (absolutely none...) microsoft > products, paid for or otherwise on any computer in my home. > > The computers at work, however, are not mine to do with as I > please, and if they were, we wouldn't be having this > conversation. :) > > > is concerned. Since giving bad advice can make you liable, > > while being stupid > > enough to follow such advice can not, I'd be really careful > > about dispensing > > such advice. > > Don't get me started on that either. ;) > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 10:56:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <004d01c1ea16$41913520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No doubt! What makes the difference, is that I haven't. BTW, what's a Honus Wagner baseball card? Does that work in an Apple? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. > > Nope! He'd just throw it out with other useless oddities like his Honus > Wagner baseball card. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 11:01:56 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784470@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > Which is why I use FreeBSD and Solaris. There also appears to be a > certain Linux versus anything else attitude, including Linux vs. other > UNIX-like, and UNIX flavors. It wasn't too long ago when most people > who wrote free software for *NIX systems made an attempt to make it as > portable as possible, so that it could be compiled on most *NIX-like I'm not sure. I think that -- in my experience -- most people who write, or have written, software for Unix, don't particularly care to test it on multiple platforms. Generally I try at least five or six with my own code, but I don't think that's common. (For the curious: Linux Intel, NetBSD/SPARC, IRIX/MIPS, HP/UX/HPPA, SunOS 4/SPARC, AT&T Unix/MC68k) ... and no, I have not so far actually released anything. Mostly this is just stuff for my own use. > platforms. Many of the Linux hackers, however, it appears, tend to > write their software for Linux, and only Linux, systems, ignoring the Perhaps that's all they've got, and they don't care to install anything else? It's certainly their spare time, to do with as they please. Not that I'm saying it's the correct thing to do, but I won't automatically fault them for it. > fact that they wouldn't have their Linux software to play with if > other *NIX hackers hadn't written portable code. For example, the > Free Software Foundation from which Linux snatched most of it's > utility programs, etc. GNU software is often incredibly portable, but I blame this on the fact that the code is ported by other individuals than those who wrote it. At any rate, this is getting even further off-topic. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 22 11:13:54 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: References: <200204202028.g3KKSL303396@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020422181354.B5275@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:31:19AM +1000, cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > I am just playing round with *BSD on this machine at the moment, and will > probably settle on one or the other.. Yes. Evaluate the choices and take the one that suites your needs best. > the machine came with an external scsi expansion with two drives, one of > the drives refuses to power up properly, but that is dependent on where it > is sittin in the scsi expansion, ie if I switch the drives around the > other will work and the one that was working doesnt. Ahhh. Bad PWR connector? Does "refuses to power up properly" mean: Does not spin up but is present on the SCSI bus. Or: Does not spin up and is not present on the SCSI bus? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 11:12:12 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784471@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Of course Emacs isn't good at word processing, because it's a text > editor. It's also not very good at schematic capture, for the same > reason. ;) Really? I thought it was a virtual memory subsystem stress tester. *duck* Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 11:16:48 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: References: <00af01c1e9bd$84d61d40$882ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CC45390.4805.3228584B@localhost> > > Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. > Nope! He'd just throw it out with other useless oddities like his Honus > Wagner baseball card. Now, beside that I still not get why baseball is called a sport, who is Honus Wagner ? Did he own an Apple 1 ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 22 11:21:26 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <004d01c1ea16$41913520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <004d01c1ea16$41913520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >BTW, what's a Honus Wagner baseball card? Does that work in an Apple? A tobacco card from the mid-teens...Hockey great Wayne Gretzkey bought one at one point for a very large sum and this same card was later sold on eBay, by another party, for $1.1million. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 11:23:49 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <000001c1e99f$084b29a0$177ba8c0@ne.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: > In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at the > reserve price. On eBay, a T-shirt from Abercrombie and Fitch that was deemed to be offensive to Chinese-Americans sold for $15,000. From Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com Mon Apr 22 11:30:45 2002 From: Andreas.Freiherr at Vishay.com (Andreas Freiherr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <01KGV9QV21Y08WX2SD@HN.Vishay.com> Message-ID: <3CC43AB5.4997328D@Vishay.com> Well, it's been some years ago, and I've only done a pretty small amount of assembly-language programming on the DEC-10 (or PDP-10) besides much more FORTRAN, but the reason for me to learn MACRO-10 was byte handling, so let me tell you... Allison wrote: > > 6bits was the "byte" size for the PDP-8 (swap acc halves). > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > 12 bits was link-8, PDP-8 and PDP-12 (likely others). > 9/18 the pdp7 (first home of unix). One of the more interesting features of PDP-10 architecture was that there is no fixed byte size. The instructions dealing with bytes (e.g., ILDB = Increment and LoaD Byte) address part of a 36-bit word by using a so-called "byte pointer", which is a (36-bit) word that defines the address (18 bits) and size (6 bits, IIRC) of the bytes being handled. This way, the same ILDB instruction can handle 5-bit bytes while reading old paper tapes as conveniently as 8-bit bytes when handling multinational character sets. Common byte sizes were 6 (for the SIXBIT code, a reduced character set for use in the file system and other places to encode identifying names) and 7 (for ASCII, parity not being stored). The 7-bit bytes left you with one bit unused, and 5 (yes, five!) characters could be stored in a word. This confused many FORTRAN-IV programs: they relied on handling strings in INTEGER arrays, and assumed the INTEGER*4 data type to be able to store four characters in 32 bits... A typical example was the FLECS translator: to port this from a 32-bit Siemens system to the 36-bit DEC-10, I had to rewrite the string manipulation routines as well as all the DATA statements that contained strings (regroup from four to five characters per INTEGER word). Later, replacing two FORTRAN routines with MACRO-10 made the translator run at about 2.5 times the original speed. If anybody wants to know more about this machine, let me know: what memory doesn't serve right any more will happily get looked up in "the Gorin", something like the bible for MACRO-10 programmers. I still have it, and you'll not find mine at eBay as long as I can read it myself. -- Andreas Freiherr Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany http://www.vishay.com From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Apr 22 11:31:48 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: One-upsmanship Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E28@BUSH02> And talk about power usage: the building has a 2 megawatt line coming into it. We have two 10 MW lines here, does that count? 8^)= Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 11:37:28 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Doesn't everyone know by now that Dick Erlacher is actually a flamebot > written by some sadistic bastard a couple years ago? He unleashed it on > the CC list to fine tune the AI. He'll make billions off it and all you > guys will have is a bad taste in your mouth :) Does that flamebot run on a Unix system? From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 11:37:42 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784475@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of > them sitting around > > for people to look at and play with. I personally was not > impressed. They > > were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside > from the OS, I don't > Compared to what? I can support this particular one of Dick's comments, given that the performance of the M68K-ish chip in the NeXT boxes was generally accepted at the time to be lower than that of, for instance, MIPS, and probably M88K. OTOH, the systems (from my personal experience) were (are!) more than fast enough to be wonderful desktop machines, and I can't relate at all to his comparing the GUI to a Macintosh. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 11:39:50 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784476@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > I've seen PC/Windows shops with remarkably high uptime-to-downtime > ratios. None of them were running bargain equipment. That's ten minutes up/ten minutes scheduled downtime/15 unscheduled? ;) Ok, ok, it's a joke -- but with a kernel of truth. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 11:42:30 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020422143117.GC39992@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote: > > Nah, most of us are code sluts. We run whatever works best on a given > > platform. And if you want to see real OS attitude, put a Solaris admin > > across the table from an AIX admin. Then step way back. > > I admin both. And also IRIX, Linux, and a little HP-UX. Should I be > walking down the street twitching and arguing with myself, or > something? ;) Arguing violently with yourself and losing. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 11:52:29 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Luser s) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > promote the interests of the Microsoft-haters, however right > > or wrong they may > > FWIW, I believe they're right. I count myself among the "microsoft > haters," and have no (absolutely none...) microsoft products, paid for > or otherwise on any computer in my home. I count myself among the Microsoft-haters. I think I qualify as a system programmer, considering I can bootstrap an S/390 from the console machine from memory in binary (or almost, it's been a few months) and bring it up to a level where I can run channel programs. Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 11:52:50 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784477@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > How can anyone do anything useful with a computer without the > following? Emacs, TeX/LaTeX, dvips, the Bourne shell for scripts, Ok then, how about using the VMS LSE for text editing? I believe TeX is not required for a computer to be "useful," since I don't produce much hardcopy anyway -- same with dvips. Bourne is useful, but so is DCL, TCL, Python, you-name-it, and there's nothing that bourne will do that one of the others won't. > ghostview, gimp, xv, PostgreSQL or Oracle, Perl, C, various useful ghostview is nice to have, but I've actually used just ghostscript, myself, and I've seen utilities that use straight DPS to accomplish the same kind of thing. Gimp is nice, but there are a few other graphics editors that will do the job -- I'm thinking photoshop or Corel's offerings here. XV is indispensable for me, but I don't think it's a requirement for everyone. PostgreSQL is certainly a fine tool, but again, there are many similar offerings, no less capable. Perl is very useful, but there are other choices. C is arguably a decent an more portable replacement for an assembler in many cases, but Modula-3 is nice. ;) > UNIX utilities (e.g. tar, awk, nawk, grep, sed, dc, ed, diff, cal, at, > bc, od, lint, etc.), to name a very few of the extremely useful > programs that run on UNIX systems. I won't address these things, but it should suffice to say that if any system didn't come with these, and you found them indispensable, you could write them yourself. I find that applications alone are hardly a good argument for the use or non-use of any system, and the much better argument is in the design of the system itself. Applications can be had, one way or another. Of course, this view won't make me very popular :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 11:59:15 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Luser s) In-Reply-To: References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC45D83.6025.324F344B@localhost> > > > promote the interests of the Microsoft-haters, however right > > > or wrong they may > > FWIW, I believe they're right. I count myself among the "microsoft > > haters," and have no (absolutely none...) microsoft products, paid for > > or otherwise on any computer in my home. > I count myself among the Microsoft-haters. I think I qualify as a system > programmer, considering I can bootstrap an S/390 from the console machine > from memory in binary (or almost, it's been a few months) and bring it up > to a level where I can run channel programs. Still not very far, but who cares, one could write usfull multi user apps at that level in just a few K's Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 11:58:52 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000f01c1e993$1a3db300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020422040312.GA17953@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <200204220607.g3M67LC06480@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CC4414C.978D3218@jetnet.ab.ca> Raymond Moyers wrote: (unix plumbing) The problem with unix it never really found a clean way to go from a line oriented system to a video screen system. Allmost 99% of unix is based on the main frame model of computing where you have 50 people all say text editing with the same editor and 3 people running a program in the background. The windows model is based on personal computers with crappy hardware that you have 100% of the system to yourself. I would like to see a 3rd system, one where the concept of information can be shared and that gives you a standard toolkit for both character and bitmaped displays that will permit plumbing from everybody.I use a 640x480 screen because I can read the text.I don't need ICON's that fill 80% of the screen or thousands of pop up windows. I want to use a computer not playwith it. > But what makes it really powerfull is that they plumb together > Its like attempting to explain the shuttle nosewhell servos > to a cave man, they have no frame of reference, and are > too ignorant to have any hint of how ignorant they are. Well maybe if they (the shuttle people) asked the Caveman in the first place you might have a better Space Program. Anyway for all the people that think Caveman had a big club, and hairy body and where chased by dinosaurs -- read "Clan of the Cavebear" by Jean M. Auel for what real cave life could have been like. PS. A few days ago somebody spoke about a construction company that uses VW bugs for transport and tanks for welding. When you think about it that is the model one needs for construction in space. reusable space transport (space plane) is offhand 10x the cost and 1/10 the payload of air transport. Because a two stage vehical is needed the what you can put in BUG ( 500..2000 LB's) seems to the typical payload. Nobody asked me!! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 11:57:57 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784478@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > computer programmers? Yes. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 22 12:02:34 2002 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A page on IBM's site (I think it's http://www.ibm.com/servers/eserver/ but > I'm too lazy to check) labels them "mainframe servers". DON"T TELL LOU! (of course he is out of the big chair now) William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 12:01:18 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC30190.4836BBDF@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c1e96a$ff650420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC3A37E.2BE4E842@jetnet.ab.ca> <009801c1e9c4$29830a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC441DE.13EA16E4@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Why does that rule out ALTERA? The same guys who'd mail parts to me in the > U.S. will ship to Canada, won't they? I know of no embargo against Canada. I hate waiting a month for stuff! > Why not just get a friend and go down to the liquor store, get him to keep the > engine running while you make a "withdrawal" so you can buy one of the > evaluation boards for the big XILINX VIRTEX chips? I'd recommend late > Saturday night on a 3-day weekend, though, so you'll get enough in a single > haul. Either that or bump off your wife after buying a sufficient life > insurance policy. That way you won't have to listen to the complaints about > how much you spent. > I am single and live 600 miles from a reasonable USA city. That would be about a month by bicycle. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 12:06:58 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <3CC45390.4805.3228584B@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Now, beside that I still not get why baseball is called a sport, who is > Honus Wagner ? Did he own an Apple 1 ? chief programmer of Apple-DOS 1.0? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 12:04:58 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <00ae01c1e9fa$8f1505e0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CC442BA.95D910F4@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > 6bits was the "byte" size for the PDP-8 (swap acc halves). > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > 12 bits was link-8, PDP-8 and PDP-12 (likely others). > 9/18 the pdp7 (first home of unix). the pdp-10 could use 6/7/9 bits for bytes. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 22 12:09:49 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <20020422143117.GC39992@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote: > Doc said: > > > > Nah, most of us are code sluts. We run whatever works best on a given > > platform. And if you want to see real OS attitude, put a Solaris admin > > across the table from an AIX admin. Then step way back. > > I admin both. And also IRIX, Linux, and a little HP-UX. Should I be walking > down the street twitching and arguing with myself, or something? ;) Ever see "Fight Club"? :^) Doc From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 12:17:26 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <004d01c1ea16$41913520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No doubt! What makes the difference, is that I haven't. So you're saying you actually do have an Apple-1? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From PasserM at umkc.edu Mon Apr 22 12:19:33 2002 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael W.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: zOS, OS/390, Perl, and ancestors Message-ID: A relevant piece of "Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal" comes immediately to mind: "No, your Real Programmer uses OS\370. A good programmer can find and understand the description of the IJK305I error he just got in his JCL manual. A great programmer can write JCL without referring to the manual at all. A truly outstanding programmer can find bugs buried in a 6 megabyte core dump without using a hex calculator. (I have actually seen this done.) OS is a truly remarkable operating system. It's possible to destroy days of work with a single misplaced space, so alertness in the programming staff is encouraged. The best way to approach the system is through a keypunch. Some people claim there is a Time Sharing system that runs on OS\370, but after careful study I have come to the conclusion that they were mistaken." And, anyway, wouldn't MVS, OS/390 or zOS, or whatever IBM marketing is calling it this week run Perl just fine under its POSIX layer (OMVS)? >> On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: >> > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes >> >> This frightens me. >> >> -Dave. > > The 60 Billion fold increase in function ? > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 22 12:22:42 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784471@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > > > Of course Emacs isn't good at word processing, because it's a text > > editor. It's also not very good at schematic capture, for the same > > reason. ;) > > Really? I thought it was a virtual memory subsystem stress tester. Emacs is an operating system. It would be a _great_ operating system, if it included a text editor. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 12:19:26 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784479@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Oh Christ. Yes, progress...with Perl...to completely unreadable, > unmaintainable, unbearably slow code. No, thanks. You'll appreciate this message which I sent to a few people on Friday. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' ---------- Well, I had a moment of boredom today, and in the interest of science, I decided to see whether output from the system random number generator might make a valid Perl script. Session follows: webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ dd if=/dev/random of=./test bs=1024 count=1024 0+1024 records in 0+1024 records out webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ perl -c test Unrecognized character \271 at test line 1. syntax error at test2 line 1, near "/." Bareword found where operator expected at test2 line 4, near ")c" (Missing operator before c?) In string, @k now must be written as \@k at test2 line 6, near "I p&`}@ \.%+ Kj&D :X" j Bt1@k" Bareword found where operator expected at test2 line 13, near "?xVr" (Might be a runaway multi-line ?? string starting on line 6) (Missing operator before Vr?) Bareword found where operator expected at test2 line 14, near "%^g" (Missing operator before g?) Can't find string terminator "`" anywhere before EOF at test2 line 15. webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ perl -c test2 test2 syntax OK webserv:~/sla_html/cgi-bin$ cat test2 #RW/.Z eF9g #j1G=qj #)c.Q #/c!*B_/; #h^?I p(@&) .%+; Kj; #X" j" Bt(@k); TON; \?xVr?; #E%g; Nb_('P'); ~cgu b^O^ s/$T//; $S3X=vU gx/A/ Chris From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 12:30:57 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Luser s) In-Reply-To: <3CC45D83.6025.324F344B@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > I count myself among the Microsoft-haters. I think I qualify as a system > > programmer, considering I can bootstrap an S/390 from the console machine > > from memory in binary (or almost, it's been a few months) and bring it up > > to a level where I can run channel programs. > > Still not very far, but who cares, one could write usfull multi user > apps at that level in just a few K's But, it's still a lost art. Most mainframe system programmers can't do it anymore. Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 22 12:39:40 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Luser s) In-Reply-To: References: <3CC45D83.6025.324F344B@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC466FC.23429.3274334D@localhost> > > > I count myself among the Microsoft-haters. I think I qualify as a system > > > programmer, considering I can bootstrap an S/390 from the console machine > > > from memory in binary (or almost, it's been a few months) and bring it up > > > to a level where I can run channel programs. > > Still not very far, but who cares, one could write usfull multi user > > apps at that level in just a few K's > But, it's still a lost art. Most mainframe system programmers can't do it > anymore. There's no dark secret at a CCW. Any to be honest, I wouldn't write such a 'the computer is mine' application anymore. Waste of time and hardware. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 22 12:41:38 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <001001c1ea24$f51682e0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> At the time DF32s were not that small. They were however fast. The usual usage was as main store for the OS and working apps with slower device like DECTAPE or 9track tape for file data or infrequently used items. The other common usage was since it was fast (word parallel due to fixed heads and data break (DMA)) as a swap store while the system used a larger disk for other ops. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 22, 2002 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) >What sort of drives were the intended target of this OS? I had a colleague >who had a couple of "DF32" drives for his PDP8E (wirewrapped CPU, BTW) which >he was never able to utilize, and I've always wondered just how those drives, >with their small capacity, fit into the scheme of things. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Loboyko Steve" >To: >Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:42 AM >Subject: Re: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > >> I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 >> installation, and I would say at first glance that you >> might think it was awful, but when you consider that >> it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, >> has highly "regular" commands, has installable device >> drivers, and has a large degree of device independence >> it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing >> about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their >> severely limited resources, pretty darned good. >> >> --- Hans Franke wrote: >> > >> > > Apple's DOS 1 and 2 had no files, or so I hear. >> > >> > AFAIR there was never a Apple DOS 1 - the first was >> > called 2 >> > (like in Apple 2, Disk 2, Dos 2) and was written by >> > the Woz >> > himself. Soon to be replaced by DOS 3 (only the low >> > level and >> > the RWTS functions taken from DOS 2 _ which barely >> > was more >> > than that), which again soon developed into 3.2 (all >> > over a >> > period of less than a half year). 3.2 was more or >> > less the >> > standard DOS for over a year, and the one commonly >> > seen as the >> > first public release. Some time later (1980?) 3.3 >> > came around >> > and the 16 sector format, picking up a development >> > done for the >> > UCSD Pascal System (Well, the P-System required you >> > to change >> > the boot PROMs for 16 sector format, and if you >> > wanted to use >> > DOS and the P-System, you either had to swap PROM >> > all the time, >> > or have at least two controllers, and boot via >> > monitor (or basic) >> > command line). Otherwise 3.3 was more or less >> > unchanged from 3.2. >> > So the main trick was the conversion from 13 sectors >> > and 117 K >> > to 16 sectors and 143 K per disk (side). >> > >> > Well, looking back, your're right - at least Apple >> > DOS 1 never >> > supported files, because it didn't exist :) >> > >> > Gruss >> > H. >> > >> > -- >> > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen >> > http://www.vcfe.org/ >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more >> http://games.yahoo.com/ >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 12:47:20 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178442D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <20020421015320.GB16642@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <001101c1e8d9$52422b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15554.8787.755368.864791@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20020421154011.GB16816@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <15554.57063.177980.222183@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CC2E257.5110B153@jetnet.ab.ca> <001d01c1e950$191ef800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC2ED39.2B10EB39@jetnet.ab.ca> <001301c1e95b$4e84b420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC30190.4836BBDF@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c1e96a$ff650420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC3A37E.2BE4E842@jetnet.ab.ca> <009801c1e9c4$29830a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC441DE.13EA16E4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004301c1ea25$c0c65f00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What are you saying here. Ben? Does the mail take a month from the U.S? I do believe you can buy Altera parts in nearly every major city, even in Canada, but if you can't I know of several guys who use Xilinx there. The minimum order may be an obstacle, but if you follow my advice and knock over a liquor store on a Saturday night, you should have enough dough to pay for theevaluation board and enough beer to last you until it reaches you. Of course, you have to split the take with the driver ... more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Why does that rule out ALTERA? The same guys who'd mail parts to me in the > > U.S. will ship to Canada, won't they? I know of no embargo against Canada. > I hate waiting a month for stuff! > > > Why not just get a friend and go down to the liquor store, get him to keep the > > engine running while you make a "withdrawal" so you can buy one of the > > evaluation boards for the big XILINX VIRTEX chips? I'd recommend late > > Saturday night on a 3-day weekend, though, so you'll get enough in a single > > haul. Either that or bump off your wife after buying a sufficient life > > insurance policy. That way you won't have to listen to the complaints about > > how much you spent. > > > I am single and live 600 miles from a reasonable USA city. > That would be about a month by bicycle. > Well, there goes the life-insurance method of finance ... back to plan A. So, why can't you buy Altera in Cananda? > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 12:48:55 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <005301c1ea25$f947b400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> NO! It means I haven't got one, and I don't want one either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > No doubt! What makes the difference, is that I haven't. > > So you're saying you actually do have an Apple-1? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 22 13:09:01 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706661C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >You could buy a 110-220 step-up transformer, and that usually has the >european two prong plug built in. I myself would see if the power >supply has a split primary for the mains power; then rewire/flip the >switch for 110 operation and just use a US style power cord. No doubt you can get a suitable two-prong plug with an IEC on the other end of the lead, but in the UK (and the beeb is, after all, a UK box) the standard plugs are three-pin. >Monitor: If it is an RGB with seperate outputs, the NTSC/PAL question >is moot. I know that US RGB monitors for the Amiga will sync to PAL >rates (625 lines, 50Hz) with no problems. The conflict arises only when >the video is composite, as the color information is encoded >differently. I have seen small converters for sale, that change PAL >video to NTSC and vice versa. I've never seen how good/bad they work, >but that is a viable alternative, if your only output is composite >video. A small cub monitor cannot be much harder to ship than a beeb can it? The real problem is possibly going to be the 50Hz/60Hz issue. I know that in the lab (in the UK) we used to have a 110/120V 60Hz supply specifically for the oddball US kit we used to end up with, but that was (IIRC) done with something a little beefier than a stepup transformer. The small (but very, very) heavy step down transformer we also had, did nothing to convert the frequency (not a problem if all you want is juice, but if anything is trying to generate an approximate clock from the line frequencey ....) Antonio From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 22 13:10:29 2002 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: A Grand Tour Message-ID: <007601c1ea28$fcce6260$b962d6d1@DOMAIN> I'm back from my trip to Pittsburgh Pa. While there, I called around but couldn't pick up a good lead on any old computers in the area other than the 1) Goodwill Computer Center in South Side and online at http://www.goodwillpitt.org/ and during 2) an annual Garbage Day. ;) The Goodwill there actually had a cool small historical display along one wall wtih several old computers (and stats) including a Commodore Pet 2001, a TRS-80 Model 1&EI, a Apple 2e, a TI99/4&EI, a IBM PC... These were all out of reach, and not for sale, but at least nicely displayed. There was also some Mac gear and a little Sun equipment though they were a little more pricy. They've got a nice area for selling old software, hardware, and documentation. Buys included: boxed Commodore 64+4, Wolfram's Mathemattica suppliment CD, early Mac, 800k drive, Amiga TeX, and medialess software packages for MS Fortran, Bank Street Writer, and Jet all for something like $15. And on the way back home, I visited Alex Knight in North Carolina, and got to see some incredible calculators from the 60s including his programmable Merchants, and Nixietube/multiuser Wangs. I knew immediately that Alex would provide a good home for my Canon Canola SX-320 programmable... http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Can01.jpg ...which I was able to trade for the blue Intel equipment in the next pic... http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Imds01.jpg ;)! Joe already had dibs on the white Intel 225 (did you notice the harddisk for it?) I was happy to bring Joe's down and land the 210 system to reunite it with the tape reader I already had. http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Imds02.jpg Thanks Alex. The Canola will ship today or tomorrow! ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From aek at spies.com Mon Apr 22 13:30:37 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: seek info for Ciprico Rimfire 3200 Message-ID: <200204221830.LAA16502@spies.com> > I'm looking for any information I can find on the Ciprico Rimfire 3200 VME > SMD controller, and ideally drivers for it to run under SunOS 4.1 www.spies.com/aek/pdf/ciprico (manuals) www.spies.com/aek/CIPRICO.TAR (drivers) From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 13:35:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <005301c1ea25$f947b400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > NO! It means I haven't got one, and I don't want one either. So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're secretly hoarding because you love it and wouldn't give it up for anything in the world and don't want anyone to know about it because you're afraid someone will break into your house one dark night and steal away with it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Apr 22 13:34:22 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706661C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <3CC457AE.734519D9@ccp.com> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > >You could buy a 110-220 step-up transformer, and that usually has > the > >european two prong plug built in. I myself would see if the power > >supply has a split primary for the mains power; then rewire/flip > the > >switch for 110 operation and just use a US style power cord. > > No doubt you can get a suitable two-prong plug > with an IEC on the other end of the lead, but > in the UK (and the beeb is, after all, a UK box) > the standard plugs are three-pin. > > >Monitor: If it is an RGB with seperate outputs, the NTSC/PAL > question > >is moot. I know that US RGB monitors for the Amiga will sync to > PAL > >rates (625 lines, 50Hz) with no problems. The conflict arises only > when > >the video is composite, as the color information is encoded > >differently. I have seen small converters for sale, that change > PAL > >video to NTSC and vice versa. I've never seen how good/bad they > work, > >but that is a viable alternative, if your only output is composite > >video. > > A small cub monitor cannot be much > harder to ship than a beeb can it? > The real problem is possibly going to > be the 50Hz/60Hz issue. I know that > in the lab (in the UK) we used to have > a 110/120V 60Hz supply specifically > for the oddball US kit we used to end up > with, but that was (IIRC) done with > something a little beefier than > a stepup transformer. The small > (but very, very) heavy step down > transformer we also had, did nothing > to convert the frequency (not a problem > if all you want is juice, but if anything > is trying to generate an approximate > clock from the line frequencey ....) > > Antonio If the power supply is switching, they ususally rectify the line votage and go from there. In which case the frequency has no bearing.. Can you get UK to Euro AC adapters there? I've only seen the round plugs with two pins, and the sorta ground lug. Gary HIldebrand St. Joseph, MO From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 22 13:37:04 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: zOS, OS/390, Perl, and ancestors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Passer, Michael W. wrote: > And, anyway, wouldn't MVS, OS/390 or zOS, or whatever IBM marketing is > calling it this week run Perl just fine under its POSIX layer (OMVS)? Yes, but the POSIX layer under z/OS is a flaming pile of dog shit. You're better off running something native. Peace... Sridhar > >> On April 22, Raymond Moyers wrote: > >> > I bet perl becomes bigtime on mainframes > >> > >> This frightens me. > >> > >> -Dave. > > > > The 60 Billion fold increase in function ? > > > > From mythtech at mac.com Mon Apr 22 14:07:57 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: >So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're secretly hoarding >because you love it and wouldn't give it up for anything in the world and >don't want anyone to know about it because you're afraid someone will >break into your house one dark night and steal away with it? That sounds about right. After all, isn't Richard the one that buy's Apple 2's for their "power supply". I think he is secretly afraid to admit he loves the Apple, so he just *says* he gets them for the power supply. I bet he has a collection to put the rest of us Apple lovers to shame. ;-) -chris From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 22 14:09:05 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706661F@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> >If the power supply is switching, they ususally rectify the line votage >and go from there. In which case the frequency has no bearing.. Never having had either a broken beeb or a broken cub monitor, I have no idea whether they care about the frequency or not. It's unlikely, but you never know ... One or other of the PDPs used to derive some sort of rough clock from the input frequency. You told it whether it was running 50Hz or 60Hz so it could adjust appropriately. >Can you get UK to Euro AC adapters there? I've only seen the round >plugs with two pins, and the sorta ground lug. There are (cheap) travel adapters that allow you to plug UK appliances into various worldwide connectors. I don't have one to hand to check, but I do know some of them can cope with a hairdryer - whether that's enough to not catch light when trying to feed an early beeb with the varnish-stripping PSU is not clear to me :-) Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 14:20:09 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > That sounds about right. After all, isn't Richard the one that buy's > Apple 2's for their "power supply". I think he is secretly afraid to > admit he loves the Apple, so he just *says* he gets them for the power > supply. > > I bet he has a collection to put the rest of us Apple lovers to shame. Prob'ly not, since he presumably only runs Unix. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Apr 22 14:25:50 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784479@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784479@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020422192550.GB72038@uiuc.edu> Christopher Smith said: > > You'll appreciate this message which I sent to a few people on Friday. > [absurd perl msg removed] you know, I've always kind of wondered about that. That's got to be one of the funniest geek things I've seen in a VERY long time ;) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From mythtech at mac.com Mon Apr 22 14:45:49 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: >Prob'ly not, since he presumably only runs Unix. Wait... isn't Richard also the guy that said he has no need for any Unix machine? And that Unix isn't good for anything except $250k programs? Or am I mixing up thread posts? -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 14:58:51 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020422195852.49022.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at > the > > reserve price. > > On eBay, a T-shirt from Abercrombie and Fitch that was deemed to be > offensive to Chinese-Americans sold for $15,000. Auction number? I was curious about a shirt that costs more than a decent automobile. I did find this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=861057082 ... but it looks suspicious to me - too much like a shill auction. The "going rate" on completed auctions for the "offensive" A&F t-shirt seems to be $200+/-$50. OTOH, if someone wants to trade an Apple-I for said T-shirt, I'll be glad to find a shirt. I'll even eat the $1,000 in difference because I'm such a nice guy. ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 15:29:37 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <001b01c1e9a2$117468e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020422202937.24358.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out... > > The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they > weren't what the home user wanted. They were never intended for the home market. The C-64 @ $595 on down to $100 MSRP _was_. > I recently saw a NEXT cube for sale in a thrift store complete with its > original (Black) laser printer for $10 for the whole shootin'match, and > it was running. Virtually every computer ever made will sell for 1% or less of MSRP approximately 10 years after it comes out. The original IBM PC-AT was $5,000 with a standard configuration, ~15 years ago. Now... how much would that same system, running, sell for? Not even $50. Same goes for anything else you care to name. The only "exception" to the rule are things that are so old that they start to appreciate again due to scarcity and interest. I picked up a PDP-8/L for $35 in 1982, MSRP $8,500 in 1968... I paid <0.5% (and got 80% of a second machine for spare parts). Try and find a PDP-8/L now for $35. It's either free or hundreds of dollars. I know more than one person who bought a PDP-8/S long enough ago that they paid $50 or less. The last two that sold that I am aware of went for $750 and $1700, still below the 1966 MSRP of $9,995, but up from $30-$50 + S&H. I am not trying to justify the MSRP of a NeXT Cube. I am pointing out that seeing *any* computer at a thrift store 10 years after its launch for $10 is not unusual. 10 years after that, though, you won't see them there at that price. > AFAIK, nobody bought it. I haven't been back to see whether it's sold > yet, but it's been a couple of weeks. If a NeXT cube showed up at a thrift store around here for $10, it wouldn't last the day. Different market (plus more sharks cruising the local waters, I suppose). PC-XTs for $15 don't move very fast, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 22 16:05:40 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC4414C.978D3218@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200204220607.g3M67LC06480@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4414C.978D3218@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200204222105.g3ML5ii09289@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 22 April 2002 11:58, you wrote: > Raymond Moyers wrote: > (unix plumbing) > The problem with unix it never really found a clean way > to go from a line oriented system to a video screen system. eh ? you mean those systems that eschew the command line by makeing the function it provided impossible ? Unix is superior *because* it retained the command line. the Unix GUI is also superior, because it is network transparent. > Allmost 99% of unix is based on the main frame model of computing > where you have 50 people all say text editing with the same editor > and 3 people running a program in the background. Ok so you dont know anything about unix, thats what you are saying here. Its also apparent that everything you have been told about it came from those equally ignorant, they are all wrong. > The windows model is based on personal computers with crappy hardware > that you have 100% of the system to yourself. How does that differ from my unix boxes ? i certainly have them all to myself. > I would like to see a 3rd system, one where the concept of information > can be shared and that gives you a standard toolkit for both character > and bitmaped displays That is an oxymoron, even tho what unix has now makes this look like what is happening. Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the bitmapped representation of the tty. and the bitmapped display is network transparent, making it superior to everything else, 2 CPUs or a farm of 4000 boxes, you only need one screen to run both tty and GUI software on all of them at once. > that will permit plumbing from everybody. Unix already has this X11 is a standard you can run your sun apps your irix apps your freebsd apps all on the GUI of your linux box all at once. and last time i looked, all the other systems have adopted our plumbing, not the other way around. > I use a > 640x480 screen because I can read the text.I don't need ICON's that fill > 80% of the screen or thousands of pop up windows. eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. > I want to use a computer not playwith it. "Well the end user experience" is system agnostic except for the winblows limitations that dumbs your system down to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. > > But what makes it really powerfull is that they plumb together > > Its like attempting to explain the shuttle nosewhell servos > > to a cave man, they have no frame of reference, and are > > too ignorant to have any hint of how ignorant they are. > Well maybe if they (the shuttle people) asked the > Caveman in the first place you might have a better Space Program. You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > Anyway for all the people that think Caveman had a big club, and > hairy body and where chased by dinosaurs -- read "Clan of the Cavebear" > by Jean M. Auel for what real cave life could have been like. So utopian brainwashed fiction writers are now your authority on such things .. > PS. A few days ago somebody spoke about a construction company > that uses VW bugs for transport and tanks for welding. When you think > about it that is the model one needs for construction in space. > reusable space transport (space plane) is offhand 10x the cost and 1/10 > the payload of air transport. Because a two stage vehical is needed > the what you can put in BUG ( 500..2000 LB's) seems to the typical > payload. Nobody asked me!! Are you a moonie of Noam Chomsky too ? From notwax at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 16:54:29 2002 From: notwax at yahoo.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020422215429.18575.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > NO! It means I haven't got one, and I don't want > one either. > > So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're > secretly hoarding > because you love it and wouldn't give it up for > anything in the world and > don't want anyone to know about it because you're > afraid someone will > break into your house one dark night and steal away > with it? > > Sellam Ismail Anyone have Erlacher's address handy? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Mon Apr 22 17:05:45 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:58 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: Dick, > I wouldn't either. I'm not sure that you can go and get an education anymore. > ... > Back when I was in high school, a score of 800 on one or the other of the > SAT's was a rare event that didn't occur every year in a school system in a > city of half-a-million or so. Nowadays, with the obviously much-lowered > standards, it happens all the time. I really don't see how this follows. Students are scoring higher on standardized exams, thus the standards must "obviously" be much-lowered. Without having proof to the contrary, Occam's Razor would suggest that the explanation to higher overall scores on standardized tests would simply be "a better overall quality of education today". After all, if students are learning more and thus scoring higher on standardized tests, well, what more does that mean than that the standardized tests are doing what they are designed for (as demographic tools) and are representative of the increase in students' learning? Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with facts, otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Mon Apr 22 17:07:28 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: apology Message-ID: I just hit a wrong key in my mailer and accidentally cc:d an entire copy of today's digest to the list. :( Sorry! *dodges hate-mail and flames* -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From rhb57 at vol.com Mon Apr 22 17:14:21 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178446B@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: Remote dial-in access via an external modem should also be available besides terminals (twinax and 5250 emulators) as well as ethernet, TR, etc - all in the adapters added to it. As pointed out before - an AS/400 of any age/type needs to have the twinax blocks with it or it's a pain to get a master VDT terminal added to it. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith => Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 10:00 AM => To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' => Subject: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => > -----Original Message----- => > From: Paul Thompson [mailto:thompson@mail.athenet.net] => => > CISC 9404 and 9402's that I have seen typically have crappy 150MB oem => > Tandberg QIC tape drives. Supposedly they are very finicky with their => > SCSI-I. I never bothered to do much with mine. => => > The disk drives (if not too small to be useful) can be => > reformatted to 512 => > byte sectors and used elsewhere. I am using an IBM 0661 now from an => > AS/400 in a Netbsd DECstation 5000/260 as a second drive. => => As I said, this thing has two EMC RAID boxes in it. The drives in there => are 80-pin SCA type SCSI disks. It also seems to have a tape library of => unknown pedigree. => => It's also worth mentioning that I talked to a friend who used to work for => this company that had the AS/400, and he had this to say: => => ----- => oh, what can I tell you about it? Not much, like I said, i => never monkeyed => with it. It was a monstrous huge thing, a good 15 years old, I => think. There was twinax wire running throughout the building, from when => the staff had to access it via dumb terminals. Later they stuck => a NIC on => it somehow, and got TCP/IP running on it, I think, because the => staff had a => telnet-like client for hooking up to it. => ----- => => Chris => => => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer => Amdocs - Champaign, IL => => /usr/bin/perl -e ' => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); => ' => => From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 22 17:21:38 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784483@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > you mean those systems that eschew the command line by > makeing the function it provided impossible ? Touche' > Unix is superior *because* it retained the command line. > the Unix GUI is also superior, because it is network transparent. Ok, well, I would argue that Unix is superior to windows because what architecture Unix has is much more well implemented that the windows architecture. Having a command-line is, of course, very helpful in trying to do real work with a computer, but I don't' know whether I'd give it as a point of superiority. > > Allmost 99% of unix is based on the main frame model of computing > > where you have 50 people all say text editing with the same editor > > and 3 people running a program in the background. > Ok so you dont know anything about unix, thats what you are > saying here. Not exactly, I think he's saying that Unix acts like a multi-user system. ;) Of course, I could be way off, but I wouldn't argue if that's the case. > > The windows model is based on personal computers with > crappy hardware > > that you have 100% of the system to yourself. > How does that differ from my unix boxes ? i certainly have them all > to myself. If your unix boxes are based on crappy hardware, I feel sorry for you. Honestly, the real difference is that on a Unix system, in order to make the system treat you as if you're the only user in the world, you've got to make some "adjustments." That's as it should be. > > I would like to see a 3rd system, one where the concept of > information > > can be shared and that gives you a standard toolkit for > both character > > and bitmaped displays > That is an oxymoron, even tho what unix has now makes this look > like what is happening. This is hard to interpret. The runes tell me that this might either mean that he'd like a standard set of APIs for controlling both textual and graphical windows. That's kind of an interesting idea, and if that's the case, take a look at Oberon (the programming environment). They also mention that he could be speaking of separate standard APIs, a standard for each type of screen. If that's the case, I'd say NeXT had this for a while. :) X11 is interesting, but the NeXT GUI is much more efficient and coherent than most X11 systems, AFAICT. The major exception in X11 being SGI's IndigoMagic environment, which is wonderful. > Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the > bitmapped representation of the tty. True, but it's certainly possible to make a graphical terminal, and a standard set of escape sequences. This has been done a few times, with acceptable results. > and the bitmapped display is network transparent, making it superior > to everything else, 2 CPUs or a farm of 4000 boxes, you I'm still going to mention NeXTSTEP as an exception here. "Superior to everything else" is a dangerous statement. Network transparency is nice, of course, and NeXT has that too. > Unix already has this X11 is a standard you can run your sun apps > your irix apps your freebsd apps all on the GUI of your linux box all > at once. and last time i looked, all the other systems have adopted > our plumbing, not the other way around. Of course, if you have this, why not use the GUI of your SGI ;) > eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen > with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate > that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. Indeed. I wonder this often, myself. > to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and > click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. Well, that depends on your definition of "point and click." I certainly have Unix systems that do it, by any definition, but it's harder to find a Unix machine that does it according to the definition of most end users. It can be done very well, and still not dumb the machine down. It has been done on SGI, NeXT, and AT&T's "UnixPC" to name a few, but I wouldn't consider what most Unix systems come with (CDE -- Yuck, or for linux GNOME "Please wait while we redraw the screen...") worth bothering to use. > So utopian brainwashed fiction writers are now your authority > on such things .. Well, the only thing wrong with a utopia is that it's not possible to sustain for any length of time. In conclusion, I'm all for criticism of windows, but please note that Unix is not perfect either. It's just better ;) There are many things that Unix could learn from other systems. Access controls, privleges, for instance. -- and it could certainly learn what not to do, and how to market itself from any microshaft product. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 17:32:12 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <20020422195852.49022.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > In case anyone is interested, the Apple-1 sold for $14,000, right at > > the > > > reserve price. > > On eBay, a T-shirt from Abercrombie and Fitch that was deemed to be > > offensive to Chinese-Americans sold for $15,000. > > Auction number? I was curious about a shirt that costs more than a > decent automobile. I did find this... > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=861057082 > ... but it looks suspicious to me - too much like a shill auction. The > "going rate" on completed auctions for the "offensive" A&F t-shirt seems > to be $200+/-$50. It's probably bogus. I heard it on the TV "news", and there was not enough information to follow up. From PasserM at umkc.edu Mon Apr 22 17:37:33 2002 From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael W.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: OT (way OT) SAT: (was Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) Message-ID: The SAT, at least, has been rescaled, resulting in older scores being equivalent to newer scores about 100 points greater. Even without an explicit rescaling, standards could have been lowered by virtue of the questions themselves having become less challenging. -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Underwood [mailto:nemesis-lists@icequake.net] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 5:06 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Dick, > I wouldn't either. I'm not sure that you can go and get an education > anymore. ... Back when I was in high school, a score of 800 on one or > the other of the SAT's was a rare event that didn't occur every year > in a school system in a city of half-a-million or so. Nowadays, with > the obviously much-lowered standards, it happens all the time. I really don't see how this follows. Students are scoring higher on standardized exams, thus the standards must "obviously" be much-lowered. Without having proof to the contrary, Occam's Razor would suggest that the explanation to higher overall scores on standardized tests would simply be "a better overall quality of education today". After all, if students are learning more and thus scoring higher on standardized tests, well, what more does that mean than that the standardized tests are doing what they are designed for (as demographic tools) and are representative of the increase in students' learning? Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with facts, otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 17:41:16 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dick said: > > Back when I was in high school, a score of 800 on one or the other of the > > SAT's was a rare event that didn't occur every year in a school system in a > > city of half-a-million or so. Nowadays, with the obviously much-lowered > > standards, it happens all the time. In 1967, there were at least 8 students in my High School (myself included) who got 800s on the Math SAT. Walt Whitman High School in Bethesda Maryland. (medium sized) From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Mon Apr 22 17:42:32 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: <200204222242.AA27041@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: "Carlini, Antonio" > To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" > Subject: RE: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in > US)? > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:09:05 -0700 > > >Can you get UK to Euro AC adapters there? I've only seen the round > >plugs with two pins, and the sorta ground lug. > > There are (cheap) travel adapters that allow you > to plug UK appliances into various > worldwide connectors. I don't have one to > hand to check, but I do know some of them > can cope with a hairdryer - whether that's > enough to not catch light when trying > to feed an early beeb with the > varnish-stripping PSU is not > clear to me :-) There are two kinds of travel adapters. The ones for low-power gadgets less than 50 watts, which use a transformer. The ones for high-power gadgets like hair dryers or clothes irons, which just use a half-wave diode rectifier, and figure that they are letting only half the power through. The second kind is not recommended for anything electronic. :-) It even says so on the package. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 17:48:00 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <002401c1ea4f$c14ab820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No. If I had one, I'd put it out in the driveway next to the dumpster, having extracted the PSU, which is the only part of an Apple product, and not all of them at that, that's of any use. For example, I had a MacIIx that I got for $3 a couple of weeks back, offered it to anyone willing to pay the freight, including the video card and ethernet board, and got no takers. I stripped the RAM and PLD's from the ethernet board, saved the PSU, and put the rest out for the trash. Besides, nobody's dumb enough to take one for free, let alone steal one. They'd buy it at auction because it's an auction. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > NO! It means I haven't got one, and I don't want one either. > > So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're secretly hoarding > because you love it and wouldn't give it up for anything in the world and > don't want anyone to know about it because you're afraid someone will > break into your house one dark night and steal away with it? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 17:50:04 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <002f01c1ea50$0c4ada80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I do have a II+, still, though I gave the other one to someone on the list not long ago. I've also got a IIe and a IIc, though, now that I've pulled the PSU from the IIe, it's on its way out, and not even the PSU on the IIc is worth taking out, so the whole thing will ultimate go, once I unplug the socketed reuseable parts. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > >So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're secretly hoarding > >because you love it and wouldn't give it up for anything in the world and > >don't want anyone to know about it because you're afraid someone will > >break into your house one dark night and steal away with it? > > That sounds about right. After all, isn't Richard the one that buy's > Apple 2's for their "power supply". I think he is secretly afraid to > admit he loves the Apple, so he just *says* he gets them for the power > supply. > > I bet he has a collection to put the rest of us Apple lovers to shame. > > ;-) > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 17:50:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <003801c1ea50$2ba06620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> EEEK! *NIX ... yechhh! ptooey! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > > That sounds about right. After all, isn't Richard the one that buy's > > Apple 2's for their "power supply". I think he is secretly afraid to > > admit he loves the Apple, so he just *says* he gets them for the power > > supply. > > > > I bet he has a collection to put the rest of us Apple lovers to shame. > > Prob'ly not, since he presumably only runs Unix. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 17:51:47 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <004001c1ea50$48b9bd60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, you're almost right ... *nix isn't got for anything ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 1:45 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > >Prob'ly not, since he presumably only runs Unix. > > Wait... isn't Richard also the guy that said he has no need for any Unix > machine? And that Unix isn't good for anything except $250k programs? > > Or am I mixing up thread posts? > > -chris > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 22 17:38:52 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: "Carlini, Antonio" "RE: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)?" (Apr 22, 12:09) References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706661F@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> Message-ID: <10204222338.ZM1002@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 22, 12:09, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > >If the power supply is switching, they ususally rectify the line > votage > >and go from there. In which case the frequency has no bearing.. > > Never having had either a broken beeb or a broken cub > monitor, I have no idea whether they care > about the frequency or not. They don't. The frequency won't matter, only having "about" the right voltage. Actually, I once (when I worked for an Acorn distributor) came across a guy working abroad who had inadvertantly used his unmodified Beeb on a 120V supply and never noticed until he bought a monitor -- which refused to work at such a low voltage. I wouldn't suggest you try it, though; it should be easy to change the PSU setting. Many monitors may not care too much about the frequency either, but it's probably easier to get one that can be set to 110V; a CGA or Amiga monitor should work. I'd strongly suggest an RGB (TTL level) monitor rather than a PAL or other composite colour monitor, as the higher-res screen modes aren't too sharp when the colour signal is added to a composite signal. > There are (cheap) travel adapters that allow you > to plug UK appliances into various > worldwide connectors. I don't have one to > hand to check, but I do know some of them > can cope with a hairdryer - whether that's > enough to not catch light when trying > to feed an early beeb with the > varnish-stripping PSU is not > clear to me :-) Don't try it. Neither the adapter nor the Beeb's switch-mode PSU will like it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mythtech at mac.com Mon Apr 22 18:00:57 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <200204222300.g3MN0vQ41456@ns2.ezwind.net> >Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to >make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with >facts, >otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. I can tell you the school system I went thru has significantly lowered it standards for grades, while at the same time INCREASING their requirments of what you are taught. I have a nephew going thru the same schools I attended (even has many of the same teachers), and I see what he is learning, and how it reflects to his grades. He is taught more than I was at his level... BUT, failure to know the stuff doesn't result in matching low grades. At least in this school system, it looks like they just won't give a kid lower than a C... no matter what. But they are definitly teaching more than they were when I attended... so things like standardized tests may result in higher average scores, since some of that higher learning probably sinks in to a good percentage of the kids. -chris From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Apr 22 18:14:01 2002 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020422155734.024037d0@mail.azstarnet.com> At 10:05 PM 4/22/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Without having proof to the contrary, Occam's Razor would suggest that the >explanation >to higher overall scores on standardized tests would simply be "a better >overall >quality of education today". After all, if students are learning more and >thus scoring higher on standardized tests, well, what more does that mean than >that the standardized tests are doing what they are designed for (as >demographic tools) >and are representative of the increase in students' learning? > >Without proof, we cannot assume either way. So if you would like to >make an argument about education quality in the US today, back it up with >facts, >otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. The SATs have, in fact, been dumbed-down. Some relevant URLs: http://www.edreform.com/news/sat_scramble.htm http://www.heartland.org/education/dec00/recenter.htm http://www.edweek.org/ew/ewstory.cfm?slug=01sat.h16 From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Mon Apr 22 18:27:31 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: <20020422181354.B5275@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 11:31:19AM +1000, cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > > > I am just playing round with *BSD on this machine at the moment, and will > > probably settle on one or the other.. > Yes. Evaluate the choices and take the one that suites your needs best. > > > the machine came with an external scsi expansion with two drives, one of > > the drives refuses to power up properly, but that is dependent on where it > > is sittin in the scsi expansion, ie if I switch the drives around the > > other will work and the one that was working doesnt. > Ahhh. Bad PWR connector? > Does "refuses to power up properly" mean: Does not spin up but is present > on the SCSI bus. Or: Does not spin up and is not present on the SCSI bus? > It doesn't spin up but is present on the SCSI bus, thats whats happening. I didn't think it would be the power connector for the drive, as it comes out of the power supply, loops to the drive that doesn't work and then to the drive that does. Benjamin From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 18:39:38 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020422155734.024037d0@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: > >otherwise it just sounds like "In my day" geezer-ranting. In MY day, (before the existence of portable calculators) when I took the PSATs, they allowed, and encouraged, bringing scratch paper, and even GRAPH paper, but NO slide rules. So, we brought logarithmic graph paper and folded it. The next year, (when I took the SATs) they stopped having students bring their own scratch paper. Our school demonstrated with reasonable statistical significance, that students who take a LOT of standardized tests score higher on standardized tests. It really DOES make a difference to pace yourself well, and get lots of practice at making best guesses. I have students these days who get bogged down in a single hard problem at the beginning and don't finish tests, and who leave BLANK multiple guess questions that they aren't sure of the answer. > The SATs have, in fact, been dumbed-down. Some relevant URLs: > http://www.edreform.com/news/sat_scramble.htm > http://www.heartland.org/education/dec00/recenter.htm > http://www.edweek.org/ew/ewstory.cfm?slug=01sat.h16 They were too easy then! And now they've further gutted them?!? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 22 18:57:32 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: <20020421220542.A21398@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 21, 2 10:05:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4873 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020423/0ccd2b01/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 19:11:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <20020422202937.24358.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004c01c1ea5b$69352a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think you may be underestimating the "home" market. After all, the Apple][ was a "home" computer. By comparison the C-64 among others were like a baby's rattle. My point, however, was that nobody seems to want that NEXT cube, since both it and the associated printer and 19" monitor, mouse, and keyboard, were sitting at the thrift store for a over a week, while the typical running PC setup, priced between 40 and 80 bucks, seldom sits there for more than half a day. I'd say it probably ended up out in their dumpster. That's what normally happens to MAC's. It's not unusual to see several MAC's in the dumpster. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out... > > > > The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they > > weren't what the home user wanted. > > They were never intended for the home market. The C-64 @ $595 on down > to $100 MSRP _was_. > > > I recently saw a NEXT cube for sale in a thrift store complete with its > > original (Black) laser printer for $10 for the whole shootin'match, and > > it was running. > > Virtually every computer ever made will sell for 1% or less of MSRP > approximately 10 years after it comes out. The original IBM PC-AT was > $5,000 with a standard configuration, ~15 years ago. Now... how much > would that same system, running, sell for? Not even $50. Same goes > for anything else you care to name. The only "exception" to the rule > are things that are so old that they start to appreciate again due > to scarcity and interest. I picked up a PDP-8/L for $35 in 1982, > MSRP $8,500 in 1968... I paid <0.5% (and got 80% of a second machine > for spare parts). Try and find a PDP-8/L now for $35. It's either > free or hundreds of dollars. I know more than one person who bought > a PDP-8/S long enough ago that they paid $50 or less. The last two > that sold that I am aware of went for $750 and $1700, still below the > 1966 MSRP of $9,995, but up from $30-$50 + S&H. > > I am not trying to justify the MSRP of a NeXT Cube. I am pointing > out that seeing *any* computer at a thrift store 10 years after its > launch for $10 is not unusual. 10 years after that, though, you > won't see them there at that price. > > > AFAIK, nobody bought it. I haven't been back to see whether it's sold > > yet, but it's been a couple of weeks. > > If a NeXT cube showed up at a thrift store around here for $10, it > wouldn't last the day. Different market (plus more sharks cruising > the local waters, I suppose). PC-XTs for $15 don't move very fast, > though. > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 22 19:14:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <20020422215429.18575.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005401c1ea5b$cb850320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OK, OK ... you win ... I've got a dozen of them tucked away. You can have em for advance payment of $15,000 each ... in cash only, plz, plus $12 for freight via USPS parcel post. I'll ship 'em when I get around to it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Smith" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > NO! It means I haven't got one, and I don't want > > one either. > > > > So you're saying you've got an Apple-1 that you're > > secretly hoarding > > because you love it and wouldn't give it up for > > anything in the world and > > don't want anyone to know about it because you're > > afraid someone will > > break into your house one dark night and steal away > > with it? > > > > Sellam Ismail > > Anyone have Erlacher's address handy? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 19:24:34 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <20020422195852.49022.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Auction number? I was curious about a shirt that costs more than a > decent automobile. I did find this... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=861057082 > > ... but it looks suspicious to me - too much like a shill auction. The > "going rate" on completed auctions for the "offensive" A&F t-shirt seems > to be $200+/-$50. Maybe I should make a VCF shirt that offends some ethnic group and makes big headlines. Not only will the VCF get publicity (not the best publicity, but we're all whores) but I'll be able to sell the shirts for stupid amounts of money on eBay. eBay has made so many things possible. Where would we be without it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Apr 22 19:26:26 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:57:32AM +0100 References: <20020421220542.A21398@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20020422172625.A22899@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 12:57:32AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > It has been my mission for some time to bring a BBC Micro back from > > Darn good idea. IMHO the BBC micro is one of the best designed 8 bit > machines out there. There are serveral models, though... > > I'd avoid the Model A (== Model B with chips missing). So many of the > 'standard features' -- like the user port, ADC, and even 16K of the > memory -- are not fited. I was hoping for a Master (after I found out that most Model B games run on it, I decided there were few disadvantages). A second processor would be nice but I understand those are harder to find even in the UK. > If you go for a Model B (32K RAM) (which is probably the easiest to find), > try to get one with the disk interface chips fitted. The 8271 disk > controller is almost impossible to get now, as are the kludgeboards > containing a 1770 that some disk upgrades used. Aren't disk systems with the 1771 (or maybe 1793) still easy to find? And IIRC the Master usually has a 3.5" drive -- what controller chip runs that? There's also Econet but with one machine that's kind of pointless. > There's also the B+ (64K RAM) and various versions of the Master series. > Be warned that on these large sections of the logic are put into custom > ULA chips (mind you, the Model A and B have 2 ULAs for serial and video). "on these" = the B+ and Master? So which is the latest machine with the smallest amount of custom logic? > Alternatively, you could use a step-up transformer (or even an > autotransformer) and not modify the PSU at all. Some SMPSUs (and I think > the BBC one is likely to be amongst them) will run happily on 300V _DC_ > input. You could use a couple of diodes and capacitors (say raided from > an old PC power supply) to voltage-double your mains. But I guess if you > knew how and why to do that, and how to check if the PSU could handle it, > you'd not be asking about this :-) I need to reread the thread to make sure I understand all the details. Didn't I read that SMPSUs will generate their own 50Hz frequency? I don't want to change the timing of the machine because then all the good games probably wouldn't run. > RGB. This is a 6 pin DIN socket carrying TTL-level R,G,B and composite > sync. Realistically this is the one you should be using. If you've got an > RGB monitor that can handle UK TV rates, then there _will_ be a way to > hook it up. I had forgotten (when I posted my original message) that RGB output was available. So yes, that sounds like the easiest way. > But it's probably simpler to find a monitor in the States that can handle > UK rates (15625Hz horzontal, 50Hz vertical) with RGB inputs. And that is what I was thinking. If the number of scan lines comes out the same and all the colors come through (which they should) then there's no need to ship a monitor back from England or run it on 240V. > $500 for what? A BBC micro would be a lot less than that. So would a > monitor (at least over here where every TV set can be used as an RGB > monitor!). A step-up transformr of suitable power would be perhaps $50 > (but you don't need that if you can convert the PSU). I was thinking $500 for a PAL composite monitor. Using RGB avoids that expensive trap. -- Derek From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 22 19:38:56 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: from Sridhar the POWERful at "Apr 22, 2 09:31:18 am" Message-ID: <200204230038.RAA20908@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > 9bits was the byte size for the PDP-10, I believe IBM360 and CDC6600 > > > > Na, the /360 was a plain 8 Bit/Byte machine, but I think you're right > > about the CDC. AFAIR there was a Bull machine using 9 Bit Bytes, and > > 18 Bit integers. > > I don't know about the /360, but the the /370 and /390 used 8-bit bytes, > 32-bit words, and 31-bit (!) addressing. Unrelated to CDCs, there was the 1610 CPU in the Intellivision that was 10-bit internally. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Chemistry is applied theology. -- Augustus Stanley Owsley III -------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 22 19:40:49 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <004c01c1ea5b$69352a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 22, 2 06:11:26 pm" Message-ID: <200204230040.RAA25554@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I think you may be underestimating the "home" market. After all, the > Apple][ was a "home" computer. By comparison the C-64 among others were like > a baby's rattle. This is ridiculous. I wonder just what type of computer you *will* use. You don't like Macs, Unix, and Windows, you won't use Apples, and now you think Commodore 64s are fit for the pediatric population only. I only shudder to think of the invective you'd heap on an Atari. Are you this much of a curmudgeon in real life? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Funk is its own reward. -- George Clinton ---------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 22 19:42:53 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Apr 22, 2 05:24:34 pm" Message-ID: <200204230042.RAA20964@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > eBay has made so many things possible. Where would we be without it? Me personally, richer. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Hark, the Herald Tribune sings/Advertising wondrous things. -- Tom Lehrer -- From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 19:43:03 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <002f01c1ea50$0c4ada80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I do have a II+, still, though I gave the other one to someone on the > list not long ago. I've also got a IIe and a IIc, though, now that I've > pulled the PSU from the IIe, it's on its way out, and not even the PSU > on the IIc is worth taking out, so the whole thing will ultimate go, > once I unplug the socketed reuseable parts. So you're saying you have an Apple 1 that you THINK may be an Apple II+ or an Apple //e or an Apple //c but you're not sure? I can help you identify it. If it's just a standalone board, it's most likely an Apple-1. Do you have a picture of it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 19:44:47 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <002401c1ea4f$c14ab820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No. If I had one, I'd put it out in the driveway next to the dumpster, > having extracted the PSU, which is the only part of an Apple product, > and not all of them at that, that's of any use. You can't extract the power supply from the Apple-1. It didn't have one. You had to provide your own. Please don't put your Apple-1 out by the dumpster. That would be a shame. If you want to get rid of it, let me know and I'll make an offer. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Mon Apr 22 19:46:34 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <005401c1ea5b$cb850320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > OK, OK ... you win ... I've got a dozen of them tucked away. You can > have em for advance payment of $15,000 each ... in cash only, plz, plus > $12 for freight via USPS parcel post. That's a bit high. If you have a dozen to sell, that should tilt the market for them downwards. If this last one sold for $14,000 then these, in untested, as-is condition, should sell for only about $9,000 each. I'll buy one from you. Do you have a PayPal account? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Mon Apr 22 19:50:34 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <3CC4AFDA.A56D9390@compsys.to> I will shortly be making some copies of the CD images from: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/ that I have downloaded and wish to offload from my hard disk drive. I have verified each of the 2 RSX-11 and the 1 RT-11 images against the MD5 values in the file MD5SUMS and they are the same. In addition, after I copy the image on my hard drive to the CD, I will verify them against their respective images in their hard drive files. To do so, I will be using RT-11 and BINCOM (with some of my own modifications which allows me to also verify block 65535 at the end of each RT-11 partition). Since there are a maximum of 20 RT-11 partitions on each CD and each BINCOM run takes me less than 30 seconds, the whole comparison can be done in less than 10 minutes - which will probably be about the length of time it takes to make the CD copy in the first place. Since there might be a number of individuals who can't download at a reasonable speed (even with DSL it takes about 12 hours each at about 30 KBytes per second as compared with about 3 KBytes per second on a dial up line), I am prepared to make additional copies (Tim Shoppa no longer seems to have the time to do so) and make them available at my cost of about $ US 1.50 (for media, label, envelope and shipping carton - the media portion is less than half of that total) plus postage. By the way, for myself, I would VERY much appreciate being in touch with all individuals who have a copy of the RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 so that we might exchange information about RT-11. Tim Shoppa felt that he might be violating privacy concerns if he made the names, of those who ordered the CD, available. I don't see it that way, so if you want your name to be known along with the other individuals (or not as the case may be - i.e. restrict that you have a copy of the RT-11 CD to ONLY specified individuals such as possibly just myself) so that you can receive interesting information about new developments in RT-11 and the status of the operating system, then PLEASE contact me so that we can share information. Also state if you want to be known to the entire group of just to specified individuals. PLUS, as for TSX-PLUS, I am going to try again to knock at the door of S&H to see what they may consider for hobby users. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 19:56:14 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > OK, OK ... you win ... I've got a dozen of them tucked away. You can > > have em for advance payment of $15,000 each ... in cash only, plz, plus > > $12 for freight via USPS parcel post. > That's a bit high. If you have a dozen to sell, that should tilt the > market for them downwards. If this last one sold for $14,000 then these, > in untested, as-is condition, should sell for only about $9,000 each. > I'll buy one from you. Do you have a PayPal account? Part of his high price is probably to fund doing a Linux port to it. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 22 20:00:14 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > eBay has made so many things possible. Where would we be without it? I know I'd have more gear to play with...(I've ranted about this before.) -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 19:58:01 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020422134256.54586.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC4B199.E2F33F57@jetnet.ab.ca> Loboyko Steve wrote: > > I've been playing with my clone PDP-8's OS-8 > installation, and I would say at first glance that you > might think it was awful, but when you consider that > it is running in 32K (x 12 bits, but still...) of RAM, > has highly "regular" commands, has installable device > drivers, and has a large degree of device independence > it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing > about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their > severely limited resources, pretty darned good. And fast too! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 22 20:01:35 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: <200204230038.RAA20908@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200204230038.RAA20908@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Unrelated to CDCs, there was the 1610 CPU in the Intellivision that was >10-bit internally. I've always found it interesting that some documents, including the Intellivision FAQ, list it as using the GI CP1600 at 500KHz while other documentation, including the Blue Sky Rangers site, lists it as using the CP1610 at roughtly 900KHz. Supposedly they are they same other than the differing clock rates. All agree that the chip had 16bit registers, 16bit data bus and 10bit instructions. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Apr 22 20:13:00 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <3CC4B199.E2F33F57@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20020422134256.54586.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC4B199.E2F33F57@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > > it's really very amazing. I could say the same thing >> about Flex for the 6800 and 09. Considering their >> severely limited resources, pretty darned good. >And fast too! FLEX is still pretty supported with the FUG online. They've gotten a lot of freeware, as well as permission from various authors, to include on a CD that is currently in the works. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 20:28:12 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204220607.g3M67LC06480@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4414C.978D3218@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204222105.g3ML5ii09289@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CC4B8AC.9CFBF31E@jetnet.ab.ca> Raymond Moyers wrote: > eh ? Yes I am from Canada -- But I speek Da English > Ok so you dont know anything about unix, thats what you are > saying here. True, but considering most of unix was developed in a educational atmosphere were only a few programs ran -- text editor -- C Compiler -- TROFF at once because that all a student or staff member could run because resorce limitations. > Its also apparent that everything you have been told about it came > from those equally ignorant, they are all wrong. What is true or false is not important as this is the view I have of the systems with the knowlage and understanding from what I have seen. > Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the > bitmapped representation of the tty. BUT I MAY NOT WANT a bit map when running under XWINDOWS! I want a 80x25 screen (640x480) because I can read the screen for text-editing! No font's under X-windows (linux) would give me that! > Unix already has this X11 is a standard you can run your sun apps > your irix apps your freebsd apps all on the GUI of your linux box all > at once. and last time i looked, all the other systems have adopted > our plumbing, not the other way around. It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe that needs to be standarded! > eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen > with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate > that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. 1) Not everybody has the same standard fonts! 2) I like 1 screen 1 program and screen flipping. > "Well the end user experience" is system agnostic except > for the winblows limitations that dumbs your system down > to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and > click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. After 40 years waiting for public space travel, my faith in NASA is wearing thin. > So utopian brainwashed fiction writers are now your authority > on such things .. Don't judge a book until you have read it! > Are you a moonie of Noam Chomsky too ? Nope! But I howl at the full moon now and then! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 20:34:57 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00c701c1e9c8$fe31eba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2002 12:43:17 AM Message-ID: <200204230134.VAA11001@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > so I meant that while you may have software that creates really pretty decent > code for one platform, that same source code may not produce as good a product > on another, and, in fact, may produce pretty bad code for yet another set of > hardware. There's plenty of evidence of that, at least according to people > with whom I routinely interact. Depends upon the compiler, and also what you are trying to do. > I personally code in assembler for the MCU's I use and occasionally use a > compiler if I have an environment where timing is not critical all the time > and where it's easier to use logic spelled out in 'C' or Pascal. That often > means that interrupt code is written in assembler while message generation or > communication code is produced by a compiler. Portability is seldom an issue > for me. For embeded systems I don't think portability is an issue really. And while I'm not sure if you work on embedded systems or not, if you are writing interrupt code, then yes, I can see why you would use assembler for that (heck, even the Linux kernel has the low level interrrupt routines in assembler). Me, I haven't had need to write an interrrupt handler in oh, maybe eight to ten years, but my code tends to be more of an application level that may or may not run on different computers. -spc (Have code that's moved from SGIs to Suns to IBMs to HPs to PCs to Amigas to ... ) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 20:35:15 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 In-Reply-To: <3CC4AFDA.A56D9390@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20020423013515.82280.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > By the way, for myself, I would VERY much appreciate > being in touch with all individuals who have a copy of the > RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 so that we might exchange > information about RT-11. Tim Shoppa felt that he might > be violating privacy concerns if he made the names, of those > who ordered the CD, available. I can appreciate Tim's discretion, but I don't mind it being known that I ordered a copy from him. As I stated recently, I used to make my living with RT-11, but am now merely a hobbyist. I happen to have a real distro of v5.3 on RX50 media from the old days, plus some v4.x stuff on RK05 cartridge and probably some (original) 2.x stuff on RX01. > PLUS, as for TSX-PLUS, I am going to try again to knock > at the door of S&H to see what they may consider for > hobby users. Thank you. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 20:50:16 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00df01c1e9ce$6cbf5da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2002 01:22:13 AM Message-ID: <200204230150.VAA11028@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > But to catagorize all of them as ``development-related tools'' is a > > disingenious thing to say. > > > > disingenuous, is what you mean, isn't it? Yes it is. That's what I get for not taking the time to look up the proper spelling. > Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? > That was once a popular format, but things change. PDF seems to be a very popular format these days and that's based upon PostScript. You can still get printers that support PostScript but hey, if PostScript isn't your bag, then there are programs to convert the output from TeX/LaTeX into your favorite printer format (as long as documentation exists for it that is). > > > Even in hardware development, the > > > software is a burden. It's a burden on the cost of other goods and > > > services. > > > > What does this even mean? > > It simply means that if you have to generate software that's not what your > main product line is, it's overhead. If you're a school system and you have > to write your own code to manipulate the test score records demanded by the > legislature, that's an overhead item, since it doesn't contribute to the > process of educating the kids. If you're a hardware developer and you have to > write a compiler for the CPU you've designed into the gate array you're going > to ship, that's overhead that adds to the systemic burden, yet doesn't > increase the price you can get for your product. Unless you're selling > software, generating software is a cost, not a benefit. You can either manage the test scores on paper, or on a computer. While it may seem to be cheaper to do it by hand, there are benefits to going the computer route, expense or not. Storage space is one consideration. Speed of processing is another. Unless you really advocate going back to paper records for everything? You're going to have to write an assembler too, else you end up with a useless piece of silicon. Face it---without software, programmable hardware isn't going to do much other than be an expensive paperweight. I would contend that without software, then who in their right mind is going to use your hardware? And it's not like you, as the hypothetical hardware chip maker, have to start from scratch and generate a compiler from the ground up. GCC can be configured to compile code for your chip, and while such a task isn't trivial, it's easier than having to generate a compiler from the ground up (and yes, documentation exists for this although how good it is, I'm not sure). And with GCC, you get not only a C compiler, but C++, Fortran and Ada as well. And if GCC is not to your liking, there is also LCC, which was designed from the ground up to be an easily retargettable C compiler (and that comes with extensive documentation). -spc (Guess its back to using the abacus to keep business records ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 22 19:23:06 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706661C@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Apr 22, 2 11:09:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1198 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020423/a5079df3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 22 19:28:26 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: <3CC457AE.734519D9@ccp.com> from "Gary Hildebrand" at Apr 22, 2 01:34:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 580 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020423/b6fb8628/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 22 19:33:14 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: <10204222338.ZM1002@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 22, 2 10:38:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020423/019cf4c7/attachment.ksh From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 21:10:54 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <012201c1e9da$264ff080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2002 02:15:33 AM Message-ID: <200204230210.WAA11064@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > It's true that there are lots of books on how to use various software > applications. Having lots of them is good because people will want to use the > software in different ways and not always in the same way. Programmers should > read these books so they know how programs are used. They should also read > them to find out how useful a helpful error or diagnostic message can help. > As for the quality of documentation, I've found statements in Linux documents > that were so outdated as to be patently false, having omitted critical terms > such as "NOT." Linux, unfortunately, is a fast moving target and by the time books do come out for the the kernel side of things, Linux has already moved on. I suppose it's one of the prices ones pays for ever evolving code. [ Dilbertesque situations deleted ] > No, I don't wonder. This situation can't be blamed on the mangers either, > though, because the programmers shouldn't tolerate this. I haven't met *any* other programmers that would even think of not tolerating this. One friend of mine, where he worked, was asked what hardware should be used for a new private phone switch (used to manage the phone system at a mid sized company). They didn't listen to him and picked PC hardware. They then asked him what OS to use. They didn't listen to him (he wanted either FreeBSD or Linux) and they picked Windows NT. For a phone switch. He stayed. He bitched, a lot, but he stayed. And got it working (to a degree). Me, personally, I would have refused to work with such crap under those conditions but most of my programmer friends (okay, all of them) would. And did. It came across as a challenge to them. I consider them insane, but hey, they're still working and I'm not. So there you have it (I've quit a job because I didn't agree with the coding standards but that was several years ago. My current unemployment is due to working for a completely insane boss who's goal in life seems to be to die at work (``I had pnemonia for six weeks and did *I* take time off from work?'' And he was back to work two days after having some heart work done) and I took a few weeks off when I had bronchitus). > There'll always be disgreement on what's wanted, until it's written down and > signed. If you can, get your boss to write you a "statement of work" which > includes your precise requirements including test criteria and schedule. > Usually schedule and workload can be adjusted early in the project, so if it > doesn't suit you, or, if, early in the progress of the work, you discover a > serious obstacle, that can be dealt with rationally. If you just quietly go > away, letting him plan his schedule on your acceptance of his schedule and > task loading, it's on you. If he doesn't allow you any input, it's on him, > and you should emphasize those issues in a memo. It won't help either of you > to pretend the problem doesn't exist. Again, getting back to my friend who worked on a phone switch based on NT---his team hired a programmer who swore up and down that he could program under C++ and understood networking, yet three weeks later he still couldn't compile a simple C++ hello world style program, and had no clue what sockets are and you can bet my friend screamed up and down. It did no good. They couldn't get rid of the programmer, and no amount of memo writing or walking up the management chain would fix that. > > -spc (Oh, forgot to tell you ... I won't tell you the specs at all, but > > that shouldn't affect the time schedule any ... ) > > > Perhaps the programmers should simply refuse to work that way, rather than > abjectly refusing to adhere to formal specifications, established policies, > etc. Either way, they're likely to be fired when all is said and done. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bingo! -spc (The Emperor may have no clothes, but he can still behead you ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 22 21:12:30 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: <20020422172625.A22899@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Apr 22, 2 05:26:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5352 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020423/0216ffb6/attachment.ksh From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 21:14:56 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <012301c1e9da$26ab7e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2002 02:46:09 AM Message-ID: <200204230214.WAA11073@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > Dave McGuire said: > > > > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > > > > computer programmers? > > > > > > That's my point, Dave! > > This comment applies to the sentence before that, which was, > > " Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is no > programmer at all." And your quoting style didn't help any; it was hard for me to determine what you were replying to exactly. -spc (Context context context ... ) From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 22 21:23:49 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <001201c1e9dc$b7e37a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2002 03:04:32 AM Message-ID: <200204230223.WAA11091@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Remember, I'm coming from a background with Sun hardware/software that was > unavailable 8-10 days per month due to software patch side-effects and other > causes having to do with the OS. That's the basis of my *nix aversion. And because of that, all of Unix sucks? Seriously, if the patches were causing such downtime, then why apply the patches in the first place. It seems like the systems were up the other 20 days after the side effects were worked around, and after two, maybe three times of that, I would not have bothered applying patches, or investigated *why* the patches were causing so much problems in the first place. Was it Sun supplying horrendous patches? Or your own developers who coded so deeply to the system that any little change would break their software? Or heck, switch vendors if possible. There's plenty to choose from (and IBM's AIX is quite nice). -spc (``I couldn't get Windows to work on my system, so therefore Windows sucks and should never be used.'') From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 22 21:29:38 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: FA: Interesting AIM-65 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020422222938.0080f7f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> See Joe From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Apr 22 21:39:01 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF In-Reply-To: <200204121349.JAA17762@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, that might be looking for a home? --John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 21:53:17 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in References: Message-ID: <3CC4CC9D.B130A9CD@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > That's a non-issue here. Neither the Beeb nor the Cub worry too much > about mains frequecy. The Beeb doesn't bother at all. The Cub only uses > AC for the deguassing coil, and either 50Hz or 60Hz would be fine for that. How about a small DC to AC converter? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 22:02:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:05:59 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230150.VAA11028@conman.org> Message-ID: <3CC4CEE1.68B6190C@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? > > That was once a popular format, but things change. > > PDF seems to be a very popular format these days and that's based upon > PostScript. You can still get printers that support PostScript but hey, if > PostScript isn't your bag, then there are programs to convert the output > from TeX/LaTeX into your favorite printer format (as long as documentation > exists for it that is). > PS/PDF is mostly portable between systems and printable! Also most old manuals endup being in this format. > You can either manage the test scores on paper, or on a computer. While > it may seem to be cheaper to do it by hand, there are benefits to going the > computer route, expense or not. Storage space is one consideration. Speed > of processing is another. Unless you really advocate going back to paper > records for everything? Or punched cards for that matter. How ever the computer is a tool like anything else it is not the do-all-endall tool. It makes a lousy hammer. > You're going to have to write an assembler too, else you end up with a > useless piece of silicon. Face it---without software, programmable hardware > isn't going to do much other than be an expensive paperweight. I would > contend that without software, then who in their right mind is going to use > your hardware? True, but the fine art bootstrapping has been forgotten. > And it's not like you, as the hypothetical hardware chip maker, have to > start from scratch and generate a compiler from the ground up. GCC can be > configured to compile code for your chip, and while such a task isn't > trivial, it's easier than having to generate a compiler from the ground up > (and yes, documentation exists for this although how good it is, I'm not > sure). And with GCC, you get not only a C compiler, but C++, Fortran and > Ada as well. And if GCC is not to your liking, there is also LCC, which was > designed from the ground up to be an easily retargettable C compiler (and > that comes with extensive documentation). GCC's output model is a register to register model I belive. A memory to accumulator architecture just don't map right. > -spc (Guess its back to using the abacus to keep business records ... ) Nah ... paper tape :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 22 22:16:57 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204230223.WAA11091@conman.org> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Apr 22, 2 10:23:49 pm" Message-ID: <200204230316.UAA08238@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Or heck, switch vendors if possible. There's plenty to choose from (and > IBM's AIX is quite nice). Lovely, even! (See .sig.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Proudly running on the Apple Network Server 500/200 ------------------------ From mbg at TheWorld.com Mon Apr 22 22:33:13 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <200204230333.XAA6545116@shell.TheWorld.com> > The only operating systems that I'm aware of that were made for the DEC >Alpha were VMS (or is that OpenVMS), ULTRIX, Linux and maybe a certain >version of Windows NT. There might have been another UNIX variant made >for the DEC Alpha but I'm not aware of what it could be. There was a version of DEC OSF/1 which early on ran on some of the DEC MIPS boxes, but Ultrix has only ever run on the Vax and MIPS, not Alpha. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 22 22:53:59 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC4B8AC.9CFBF31E@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200204222105.g3ML5ii09289@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4B8AC.9CFBF31E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 22 April 2002 20:28, you wrote: > > Ok so you dont know anything about unix, thats what you are > > saying here. > > True, but considering most of unix was developed > in a educational atmosphere were only a few programs ran > -- text editor -- C Compiler -- TROFF at once because that > all a student or staff member could run because resorce limitations. And today you have enough hardware in a PC box to support 5,000 people doing the same thing, not that your lust for faster hardware is over, because unix is doing things that Ken and Dennis never envisioned. http://www.nop.org/misc/unix/ken-and-den.gif ""If we prevent them from doing stupid things, we also prevent them from doing creative things"" - Cant Remember Who And these new things are seem seemless because the system concepts are extensable with flexability in depth Winblows by contrast has the depth of leftist reason and the flexability of a socialist utopian machine gunner setting up 40 paces from a fresh dug mass grave ditch. and like winblows, equal use and benifit to you if your aim and desire dont fit with theirs. Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > Its also apparent that everything you have been told about it came > > from those equally ignorant, they are all wrong. > > What is true or false is not important as this is the view I have > of the systems with the knowlage and understanding from what I have > seen. True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the > > bitmapped representation of the tty. > > BUT I MAY NOT WANT a bit map when running under XWINDOWS! > I want a 80x25 screen (640x480) because I can read the screen for > text-editing! > No font's under X-windows (linux) would give me that! What makes you think they wont ? you can have any size you want. > > Unix already has this X11 is a standard you can run your sun apps > > your irix apps your freebsd apps all on the GUI of your linux box all > > at once. and last time i looked, all the other systems have adopted > > our plumbing, not the other way around. > > It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe that needs to > be standarded! This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. New protocols are invented every day, the usefull ones end up being adopted and the bad ones on the ashheap. Software darwinism is a good thing. > > eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen > > with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate > > that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. > 1) Not everybody has the same standard fonts! > 2) I like 1 screen 1 program and screen flipping. This is wrong ... X11 does come with a full set of standard fonts. and adding more is easy. > > "Well the end user experience" is system agnostic except > > for the winblows limitations that dumbs your system down > > to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and > > click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. > > But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > After 40 years waiting for public space travel, my faith in NASA > is wearing thin. Public space travel to where ? I also dream of the day when a colony on mars is in full tilt of the 100 - 1000 year job of terraforming the place, complete with a planetary mag field generator to fend off them nasty solar rays, but we are still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has raped the planet of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in mass graves ) When the social enginners are no longer putting the jackboots of goverment on the necks of the acheavers in the name of "social justice" and the envirowackos stand fully discredited by the emissions data from the volcano Penetubo, perhaps then we can get along back to the accent of man. Raymond From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 22 23:43:22 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204222105.g3ML5ii09289@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4B8AC.9CFBF31E@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> Raymond Moyers wrote: > ""If we prevent them from doing stupid things, we also prevent > them from doing creative things"" - Cant Remember Who > > And these new things are seem seemless because the system > concepts are extensable with flexability in depth > > Winblows by contrast has the depth of leftist reason and > the flexability of a socialist utopian machine gunner setting up > 40 paces from a fresh dug mass grave ditch. > and like winblows, equal use and benifit to you if your aim and desire > dont fit with theirs. I don't agree with your political descriptions. Windows I use if I have too. > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) I always got lost in political terms. True or False do matter but I don't have all the information to say that is true or false or a ring oscillator. > > > Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the > > > bitmapped representation of the tty. > > > > BUT I MAY NOT WANT a bit map when running under XWINDOWS! > > I want a 80x25 screen (640x480) because I can read the screen for > > text-editing! > > No font's under X-windows (linux) would give me that! > > What makes you think they wont ? you can have any size you want. I tried (under linux)! No font gives me 80 x 25 on a 640x480 window! > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. How can that be? -- if only the scribes can read and write what hope does the common farmer have to write something profound. > New protocols are invented every day, the usefull ones end up > being adopted and the bad ones on the ashheap. > > Software darwinism is a good thing. > > > > eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen > > > with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate > > > that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. > > > 1) Not everybody has the same standard fonts! > > 2) I like 1 screen 1 program and screen flipping. > > This is wrong ... X11 does come with a full set of standard > fonts. and adding more is easy. > > > > "Well the end user experience" is system agnostic except > > > for the winblows limitations that dumbs your system down > > > to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and > > > click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. > > > > But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! > > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. I like 3 buttons better. > > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. Nah ... More a "Mother Earth News" type guy. > > After 40 years waiting for public space travel, my faith in NASA > > is wearing thin. > > Public space travel to where ? Well off the planet is a good start. > I also dream of the day when a colony on mars is in full tilt of the 100 > - 1000 year job of terraforming the place, complete with a planetary > mag field generator to fend off them nasty solar rays, but we are > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has raped the planet > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in mass graves ) More like Greed and Capitalism and OVER population! I never could get Mars terraformed in a 1000 years! Are you better with SIM-EARTH than me? BTW if my mars deed has any leagal value in the future I refuse to have my land terraformed YOUR way! > When the social enginners are no longer putting the jackboots > of goverment on the necks of the acheavers in the name of > "social justice" and the envirowackos stand fully discredited > by the emissions data from the volcano Penetubo, perhaps then > we can get along back to the accent of man. Darn where is BABLE fish when you need one! > Raymond -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 01:22:19 2002 From: bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca (Bob Bramwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> I didn't catch the posting that seems to have started all this, but ignorance never seems to stop anyone *else* from stating an opinion, so here's mine :-) A few years back I spent a little time working for a small company whose primary focus was Unix system software. They did some Windows work, and this was their eventual downfall because they were bought out by McAfee who didn't have a clue what to do with the Unix stuff and weren't interested in finding out. I was the last remaining employee of the original company. For most of the last year of its operation I did pretty much all the system administration, lightweight hardware maintenance, bug fixing, and many of the enhancements to the two Unix products that had been the mainstay of the company. I forget exactly how many machines we had and exactly what they ran, but it was something like: Hardware OS Notes ======== == ===== HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 9.x HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 10.01 + 10.10? dual boot DEC Alpha 2000 (?) OSF 1 Motorola Mxxx Motorola Unix v.X forgotten machine Motorola Myyy Motorola Unix v.Y & OS version names SUN Sparc 5 Solaris 2.5.1 SUN SLC Solaris 2.5.1 SUN 3/60 SunOS 4.1.1 IBM RS6000 AIX v.X & v.Y forgotten versions, dual boot Intel SCO Unix Intel Dynix Intel ?nix more memory loss I am missing a couple of machines and maybe one more OS. Before I started with the company I had never even heard of some of these variants. The point of all this is that the same code base built on ALL these things. Sure, we had a "portability" library of our own to make it easier, there was a fair amount of #ifdef stuff, and we had to tinker with GNU autoconf to get the builds smooth, but I could manage ALL of it. We used Emacs and gcc/gdb on all the machines, and a freeware distributed backup package (Amanda) to run complete backups of everything automatically (well, OK, I had to change the tapes manually). Of course, with the network applications that typically come with Unix (telnet, ftp, NFS, X Windows, etc.) I could sit at my own desk and get at every machine conveniently and run a parallel build on all the machines. That would have been completely impossible with the Microsoft (bundled) products available at that time. Now, I've watched people trying to do software development on Windows systems over the years, and I've done a little myself here and there. Every time there is a new service pack or OS release there are wailings and rendings of clothes on all sides. New licenses have to be bought for compilers, new versions of the network backup client have to be purchased, very often a whole new machine has to be bought, the sys admins have to do all sorts of black magic to get the new machines to "play nice" with the old ones on the network, and a whole new set of OS idiosyncracies has to be mastered. I have never observed anything similar in Unix development shops (well, OK, the more organised ones, anyway). Oh, and even *less* upheaval takes place in VMS shops BTW, but VMS has other problems. So: 1. it is perfectly possible to write highly portable software, and once the initial portability setup is done the rest is not particularly hard. 2. there is a great deal of very useful "free" software for Unix out there in net land, much of which you would have to pay big $ for on Windows 3. there is NOT very much "business" software (word processors, spreadsheets, contact management etc.) for Unix because the kind of people who write free software aren't generally very interested in "business" stuff, and the kind of people who write commercial software don't think there is much of a Unix market for it (since they priced themselves out of it a while back). 4. if I were developing software for "back end" applications (servers, networking, etc.) I would certainly do it on Unix in preference to Windows, and in this respect the market mostly agrees with me. By all means use Windows for your office work. That's about all it's good for, and on the whole it does it fairly well. Bob Bramwell Snail: 60 Baker Cr. NW | If I die in war you remember me; ProntoLogical Calgary, AB | If I live in peace you don't. +1 403/861-8827 T2L 1R4, Canada | - Spike Milligan (1919 - 2002) From rmoyers at nop.org Tue Apr 23 02:41:58 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified left have butchered 200 million people, In first place we have Stalinist USSR that butchered 60 million of its own people. In second Place is Mao who murdered 40 Million of his own people In third place is the National Socialists (Nazi) under Hitler with 20 Million dead Those are the top 3 of the left > I don't agree with your political descriptions. Your a Holocaust denier ? > Windows I use if I have too. Sure, we all end up in the have-to mode all the time . > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > > > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > I always got lost in political terms. True or False do matter but I > don't have all the information to say that is true or false or a ring > oscillator. Thats the leftist brainwashing at work, when people can no longer identify right or wrong or true or false, they are ready to be fed lies and be complicit with horrendus evil, as the 200 million murdered, thats 4 times the 43 Million battle dead of all wars, would testify if the dead could talk. > > What makes you think they wont ? you can have any size you want. > I tried (under linux)! > No font gives me 80 x 25 on a 640x480 window! Eh ? thats the standard of a tty and any xterm can be streached full screen and run huge fonts ... the font i use for xterms is 9x15bold > > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. > > How can that be? -- if only the scribes can read and write what hope > does the common farmer have to write something profound. If Big Brother handed down a book of news speak we would have your utopia then ... with all such non-words eliminated. The tcpip suite itself has all the rules you need, all else is userspace and should be and must be freeform or else creativity is stiffled just as bad as leftism stomps out creativity by removing incentive and its slavery like condition of existance. Freedom isnt chaos, the free world has rules, the ip stack has rules, but the only valid rules are those that restrict others from .... be it an individual or the demands of the mob ( usually led by a tyrant ) ..... impinging on that freedom. These quotes are good illustrations of the concepts "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." -- Thomas Jefferson "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient... The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." -- George Washington, in a speech of January 7, 1790 False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of. -- Albert Gallatin, Oct 7 1789 Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859 Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences. -- C. S. Lewis It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed? -- James Madison, Federalist Papers 62 Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. He might start thinking he knows what's right for you. -- Paul Williams, `Das Energi' To understand open source unix is to see the parallels it has with the free market populated by a free people Its why america remains the powerhouse that it is, we are more powerfull because we have more freedom All goverments that follow the leftist model are known for famine mass murder and dispair or are following the same path as the poor fools that went before them. Unix is a great system because of the same freedom, it does not dictate the language you use or the look or feel of the interface, the X11 primatives push look and feel into userspace. Dont like Gnome or Kde ? Windomaker is my fav, there are dozens of desktops that look like riscos or macos or plan9 or .. the choice is all up to the user, Freedom ! And the choice of interface dont dictate what apps you run, the kde and gnome stuff run fine on a windowmaker desktop Freedom ! Choice ! Freedom ! Creativity ! freedom of action, freedom from dictate. > > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. > > I like 3 buttons better. Then i dont see what your complaint was here then .. > > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > > Nah ... More a "Mother Earth News" type guy. Much of their stuff seems wrapped around the same socialist mindset that butchered 200 Million people. > > Public space travel to where ? > Well off the planet is a good start. Off the planet to where ? Every time we have reduced taxes, Kennedy, Reagan, the boom in the economy created a boom in goverment income. But because leftist are not focused on the greatest tax income but in bloodstained marxist egalitarianism the misery industry and utopian dreamer feelgood schemes the potental and treasure of our people has been wasted, we could have been a lot farther along, but we have blown it on social engineering, small sips of the same egalitarian poison that has butchered so many after they fell into the whole leftist program. > > I also dream of the day when a colony on mars is in full tilt of the 100 > > - 1000 year job of terraforming the place, complete with a planetary > > mag field generator to fend off them nasty solar rays, but we are > > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has raped the planet > > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in mass graves > > ) > > More like Greed and Capitalism and OVER population! This is more brainwashing Capitalism has no holocaust to its discredit Even bill gates has never machined gunned people into a fresh dug ditch. If body count is the measure of evil, and you was to make a graph then the leftist murder bar would reach to the moon before the free marketers bar could be scaled to an inch. In the free market the goverment does not have the authority or the power to commit such crimes, but the all powerfull central controling goverment of the left is stained with blood like nothing else ever seen in the history of man. > I never could get Mars terraformed in a 1000 years! Are you better with > SIM-EARTH than me? BTW if my mars deed has any leagal value in the > future I refuse to have my land terraformed YOUR way! I would say that perhaps sim earth, is a bit faulty, for example if penetubo errupted on sim earth, ( it let go of more CO/2 and SO/2 than all of mans activity in his entire history on earth ) then their model is programmed to show enviromental disaster Sim Earth is wrong the same way one volcano shows that the evirowackos are total bilthering idiots. Mars only needs a little warmth and it could kick start it would warm easilly for the same reason earth is warming resistant,, No plants on mars !!! On earth ... a volcano can belch an amount of CO/2 that makes all the oil burned on earth at one time insignificant, and the only thing that happens is faster plant growth and in 2 years several mankind history of total possible oil burnings worth of CO2 is gone and the envirowacko climate catastrophe left to be nothing but their usual hairbrained nonreasoned nattering nabob effuent. On mars however, No plants, and lots of CO/2 frozen at the poles and if you warm it up a bit and gassify the dri ice, the resulting greenhouse effect can do the rest.. the next problem would be controling plant growth so that it didnt suck out all the CO/2 before you could populate it with lots of us nasty humans burning oil to feed the plants to keep it out of slipping back to its ice age, On earth our food production has grown along with our CO/2 supply, im quite convinced if it was not for mans activity the earth would have gone back into its ice cube period. The plants suck up CO/2 like a sponge as the penetubo emissions show us ... a whole human historys worth of gas many times over is sucked up like it was nothing, The ice caps are already melting on mars btw, the REAL factor for climate change, the sun is gasifying the mars poles a bit the past couple years ( the sun is having a double peak sunspot cycle ) its too bad leftodumbo envirowacko PC religion that they pass off as science these days is too busy with their leftist delusion, away from emotion, and wishfull thinking, out here in the realm of reality and facts, there is some interesting things happening. Too bad they are too deep in their dogma to take notice. > > When the social enginners are no longer putting the jackboots > > of goverment on the necks of the acheavers in the name of > > "social justice" and the envirowackos stand fully discredited > > by the emissions data from the volcano Penetubo, perhaps then > > we can get along back to the accent of man. > > Darn where is BABLE fish when you need one! Read it again, or wait 30 years when you are wiser, then read it again. Raymond From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Apr 23 03:21:46 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Calculating VUP values In-Reply-To: <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> References: <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020423181920.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> I'm sure a few days ago I saw a piece of DCL fly by in a classiccmp mail message that was supposed to calculate the VUP rating of a VMS system. At the time I didn't think I'd need it so didn't archive it, of course, now I WANT it! Basically I'd like to get the VUP rating for my simulated VAXserver 3900 thanks to simh (http://simh.trailing-edge.com). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 03:52:46 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > Read it again, or wait 30 years when you are wiser, then read it again. Better yet, I think I'll wait thirty years, at which time you've hopefully learned some grammar, proper spelling, and some capacity to think before you spew, and I'll pass on reading it then, as well. Doc From rmoyers at nop.org Tue Apr 23 05:22:57 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> Message-ID: <200204231022.g3NAMw611303@Fubar.nop.org> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 01:22, you wrote: > Hardware OS Notes > ======== == ===== > HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 9.x > HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 10.01 + 10.10? dual boot > DEC Alpha 2000 (?) OSF 1 > Motorola Mxxx Motorola Unix v.X forgotten machine > Motorola Myyy Motorola Unix v.Y & OS version names > SUN Sparc 5 Solaris 2.5.1 > SUN SLC Solaris 2.5.1 > SUN 3/60 SunOS 4.1.1 > IBM RS6000 AIX v.X & v.Y forgotten versions, > dual boot > Intel SCO Unix > Intel Dynix > Intel ?nix more memory loss > Pretty impressive, now all of that old hardware is showing up on e-bay Drool at one time over a SS10 ? SGI Indy ? now you can have one cheap ! My most treasured old unix box however is my Sony News 3250 http://www.nop.org/misc/unix/news-3250.jpg http://www.nop.org/misc/unix/sony It runs a 20 mhz mips 3000r and was the original target platform for sysVr4 on Mips http://www.nop.org/misc/text/sony.unix.announcement.html The machine still works, and more pointedly is still usefull despite its age.. to wit sony:/# uname -a sony sony 4.0 5.0.1 NEWS3200 mips.r3000 sony:/# bash -version GNU bash, version 1.14.7(1) sony:/# gcc --version 2.7.2.3 sony:/# w 4:55am up 200 days, 8:18, 1 user, load average: 0.03, 0.00, 0.00 sony:/# rdate rx Tue Apr 23 04:55:27 2002 sony:/# ls -l /stand total 4064 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 12880 May 10 1991 boot drwxr-xr-x 2 root 512 Jan 6 1991 mdec -r-xr-xr-x 1 bin 6432 May 10 1991 tftpboot.single -rw-r--r-- 1 bin 4135440 May 10 1991 unix This is an old ecoff bin format system that dont have shared libs so some modern stuff can compile a bit too fat, but i ported gcc to the thing. and a more modern compiler running on it was a big victory, since it paved the way to import all the nice gnu replacements for things, its still the original 1991 kernel however. There are scanned docs and the OS tree in the links above if you want to look the thing over. If it was any other type of machine of the same age, it certainly would not still be usefull as this one is, and would not be capable of running modern software like this one is ( within reason ). This machine is quite happy as a coffee table Xterminal for the bigger boxes and runs the same stuff locally ( again, within reason) that my modern machines do. Perhaps the only other arch i can think of that can claim this, is the IBM line of mainframes s360/370/390 Zseries that now, ( http://linux390.nop.org ) is running the same stuff. these are probably the only two systems that have preserved and built upon all their years of programmer sweat. Unix has much that it can claim today on this preservation of investment, we stand today on the shoulders of giants, and the view aint too shabby. > Now, I've watched people trying to do software development on Windows > systems over the years, and I've done a little myself here and there. > Every time there is a new service pack or OS release there are wailings and > rendings of clothes on all sides. When i went looking for software for my 1991 mips based Sony, i dug tarballs out of the current slackware source tree, and presto ... modern userspace stuff. there are plenty office apps of X11 now in source form btw gnumeric is a nice sheet and there is plenty others even siag office is actually all anyone really needs and the only stuff you will find missing is the stuff you never use. > Bob Bramwell Snail: 60 Baker Cr. NW | If I die in war you remember me; > ProntoLogical Calgary, AB | If I live in peace you don't. > +1 403/861-8827 T2L 1R4, Canada | - Spike Milligan (1919 - 2002) How about this one: Kinsman die and cattle die and so also for oneself. But there is one thing that never dies. That is the fame of a dead mans deeds. Cheers! Raymond From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 23 07:55:55 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: References: <20020422181354.B5275@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020423145555.A8591@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:27:31AM +1000, cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > It doesn't spin up but is present on the SCSI bus, thats whats happening. On most SCSI drives you can disable spin up via jumpers. Is there a cable for SCSI ID select connected to that drive? Maybe there is the "do not spin up" jumper cnnected with that cable too... But NetBSD schould detect the drive and spin it up uppon boot, as should a "sh dev" from the boot prompt. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 23 08:26:18 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF In-Reply-To: References: <200204121349.JAA17762@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020423092618.0081a3d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:39 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote: >Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, >that might be looking for a home? > >--John > Ha! Ha! Ha! ROFL! Joe From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Apr 23 08:37:19 2002 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Calculating VUP values In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020423181920.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <4.3.2.7.2.20020423181920.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <1019569039.15595.2.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 03:21, Huw Davies wrote: > I'm sure a few days ago I saw a piece of DCL fly by in a classiccmp mail > message that was supposed to calculate the VUP rating of a VMS system. > > At the time I didn't think I'd need it so didn't archive it, of course, now > I WANT it! Basically I'd like to get the VUP rating for my simulated > VAXserver 3900 thanks to simh (http://simh.trailing-edge.com). > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" I might have been the one that posted it. I snagged it from google, so I don't know how accurate it is. On my pentium 3/1.7GHz I get 4.0 vups under simh. $! CALCULATE_VUPS: $! $ set noon $ orig_privs = f$setprv("ALTPRI") $ process_priority = f$getjpi(0,"PRIB") $ cpu_multiplier = 10 ! VAX = 10 - Alpha/AXP = 40 $ cpu_round_add = 1 ! VAX = 1 - Alpha/AXP = 9 $ cpu_round_divide = cpu_round_add + 1 $ init_counter = cpu_multiplier * 525 $ init_loop_maximum = 205 $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 10$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. init_loop_maximum then goto 10$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ init_vups = ((init_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ loop_maximum = (init_vups * init_loop_maximum) / 10 $ base_counter = (init_counter * init_vups) / 10 $ vups = 0 $ times_through_loop = 0 $ 20$: $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 30$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. loop_maximum then goto 30$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ new_vups = ((base_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ if new_vups .eq. vups then goto 40$ $ vups = new_vups $ times_through_loop = times_through_loop + 1 $ if times_through_loop .le. 5 then goto 20$ $ 40$: $ new_privs = f$setprv(orig_privs) $ set message /nofacility/noidentification/noseverity/notext $ ASSIGN/SYSTEM/EXEC 'vups' MACHINE_VUPS_RATING $ set message /facility/identification/severity/text $ write sys$output "Approximate System VUPs Rating : ", - vups / 10,".", vups - ((vups / 10) * 10) $ exit Brian From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 23 08:41:31 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive specs? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020423094131.0082a290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have a handy list of drive specs for the various 3.5" floppy drives that they can post? I need to find a couple of old 720k drives but I don't know what part numbers to look for. Joe From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 23 09:01:30 2002 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: wang 2200 MVP & more looking for home (fast!) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423065738.02162740@postoffice.pacbell.net> Last night I was contacted by Joe Kultgen about a wang 2200 MVP he needs to get rid of by the end of the month. Although I'm into the 2200, I'm interested in just a few early models. Please contact Joe directly at rtfm AT tds DOT net >Hi, > > Are you still looking for some vintage Wang 2200 hardware? > > About six years ago I pulled one out of service at a brokerage I >support. I have the following; > >3 2200 MVP Processors >1 2200 MVPC Processor >1 Magna removable hard disk + a half dozen disks. (Uses a removable hard >disk platter in plastic cartridge, 10MB) >2 twin bay extrernal hard drives (One has 2 MFM drives, other has 1 MFM and >one 5 1/4 floppy) >2 drive towers (6 bay?) that include 5 1/4 floppy and DAT tape drives. >1 large box of drive controlers, I/O, and memory cards. >1 Dumb terminal & keyboard >25 lbs. of assorted Wang docs and manuals > >Interested? >Joe Kultgen >RTFM Technical Services and in a subsequent email: > The reason I'm dumping the stuff is that I'm relocating my shop. I have >to be out by the end of the month. If you'd like to circulate the list, >please feel free. If somebody expresses an interest in paying the shipping, >they can have their pick of the pile, first come first served. I'll hold >stuff that anyone wants past the 30th, everything else hits the dumpster. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Apr 23 09:04:15 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020423092618.0081a3d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I'm glad that amuses you. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:26 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Questing for a Cosmac ELF > > > At 10:39 PM 4/22/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, > >that might be looking for a home? > > > >--John > > > > Ha! Ha! Ha! ROFL! > > > Joe > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 09:03:29 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784484@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhb57@vol.com] > Remote dial-in access via an external modem should also be > available besides > terminals (twinax and 5250 emulators) as well as ethernet, > TR, etc - all in > the adapters added to it. You're right. It even came with the 2400bps modem ;) -- and at least one twinax block. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 09:26:09 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784485@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > BUT I MAY NOT WANT a bit map when running under XWINDOWS! Then why use a windowing system at all? > I want a 80x25 screen (640x480) because I can read the screen for > text-editing! Ok, but why would you use a windowing system? > No font's under X-windows (linux) would give me that! You could make one. I would, but I think you'll find that there are, indeed, fonts which will do this. > It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe > that needs to > be standarded! That's certainly a Unix weak spot. > 1) Not everybody has the same standard fonts! Actually, any X11 setup should have the standard Adobe type-1 set. > 2) I like 1 screen 1 program and screen flipping. Ok, why would you use a windowing system? (Please note that I don't mean any disrespect by repeating this question so much...) > But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! Really? They are -- to steal a phrase -- common as dirt, as far as I know. You do know that the common annoying "wheel" mice are either three button, or five, depending on the software ;) > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > After 40 years waiting for public space travel, my faith in NASA > is wearing thin. Of course, it would happen in Europe first... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 23 09:29:30 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Calculating VUP values Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066625@exc-reo1.yagosys.com> It's amazing DEC went to such bother calculating VUPs by running a set of real benchmarks on a finely tuned system and then reporting a measure based on some weighted sum when this procedure would have saved **sooo** much effort: According to this proc, the machines I can reach right now report: VAXstation 4000-90A: 26.0 bogoVUPs (should be 32+ VUPs) VAX 4000-700A: 30.8 bogoVUPs (should be ~40 VUPs) VAX 4000-705A: 34.4 bogoVUPs (should be ~45 VUPs) Alpha 2100 4/200: 35.2 bogoVUPs Takara (EV56@500MHz): 87.2 bogoVUPs Antonio -----Original Message----- From: Brian Wheeler [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu] Sent: 23 April 2002 14:37 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Calculating VUP values On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 03:21, Huw Davies wrote: > I'm sure a few days ago I saw a piece of DCL fly by in a classiccmp mail > message that was supposed to calculate the VUP rating of a VMS system. > > At the time I didn't think I'd need it so didn't archive it, of course, now > I WANT it! Basically I'd like to get the VUP rating for my simulated > VAXserver 3900 thanks to simh (http://simh.trailing-edge.com). > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" I might have been the one that posted it. I snagged it from google, so I don't know how accurate it is. On my pentium 3/1.7GHz I get 4.0 vups under simh. $! CALCULATE_VUPS: $! $ set noon $ orig_privs = f$setprv("ALTPRI") $ process_priority = f$getjpi(0,"PRIB") $ cpu_multiplier = 10 ! VAX = 10 - Alpha/AXP = 40 $ cpu_round_add = 1 ! VAX = 1 - Alpha/AXP = 9 $ cpu_round_divide = cpu_round_add + 1 $ init_counter = cpu_multiplier * 525 $ init_loop_maximum = 205 $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 10$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. init_loop_maximum then goto 10$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ init_vups = ((init_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ loop_maximum = (init_vups * init_loop_maximum) / 10 $ base_counter = (init_counter * init_vups) / 10 $ vups = 0 $ times_through_loop = 0 $ 20$: $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 30$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. loop_maximum then goto 30$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ new_vups = ((base_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ if new_vups .eq. vups then goto 40$ $ vups = new_vups $ times_through_loop = times_through_loop + 1 $ if times_through_loop .le. 5 then goto 20$ $ 40$: $ new_privs = f$setprv(orig_privs) $ set message /nofacility/noidentification/noseverity/notext $ ASSIGN/SYSTEM/EXEC 'vups' MACHINE_VUPS_RATING $ set message /facility/identification/severity/text $ write sys$output "Approximate System VUPs Rating : ", - vups / 10,".", vups - ((vups / 10) * 10) $ exit Brian From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 23 09:38:25 2002 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: wang 2200 MVP & more looking for home (fast!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423065738.02162740@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423073756.0215cec0@postoffice.pacbell.net> BTW, Joe didn't say where he was, but it would appear to be Wisconsin. At 07:01 AM 4/23/02 -0700, you wrote: >Last night I was contacted by Joe Kultgen about a wang 2200 MVP he needs >to get rid of by the end of the month. Although I'm into the 2200, I'm >interested in just a few early models. > >Please contact Joe directly at rtfm AT tds DOT net > > >>Hi, >> >> Are you still looking for some vintage Wang 2200 hardware? >> >> About six years ago I pulled one out of service at a brokerage I >>support. I have the following; >> >>3 2200 MVP Processors >>1 2200 MVPC Processor >>1 Magna removable hard disk + a half dozen disks. (Uses a removable hard >>disk platter in plastic cartridge, 10MB) >>2 twin bay extrernal hard drives (One has 2 MFM drives, other has 1 MFM and >>one 5 1/4 floppy) >>2 drive towers (6 bay?) that include 5 1/4 floppy and DAT tape drives. >>1 large box of drive controlers, I/O, and memory cards. >>1 Dumb terminal & keyboard >>25 lbs. of assorted Wang docs and manuals >> >>Interested? >>Joe Kultgen >>RTFM Technical Services > > >and in a subsequent email: > >> The reason I'm dumping the stuff is that I'm relocating my shop. I have >>to be out by the end of the month. If you'd like to circulate the list, >>please feel free. If somebody expresses an interest in paying the shipping, >>they can have their pick of the pile, first come first served. I'll hold >>stuff that anyone wants past the 30th, everything else hits the dumpster. > > >----- >Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 09:52:39 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230040.RAA25554@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <003601c1ead6$83c4d3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't make that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were 10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video toy market to play in rather than the home computer market, because they couldn't compete with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with RS' low-end. That low-end, e.g. COCO wasn't much to compete with. All these were capable if you were determined to make them into what they weren't, but if you wanted a home computer, you were better off buying something that was alread a computer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > I think you may be underestimating the "home" market. After all, the > > Apple][ was a "home" computer. By comparison the C-64 among others were like > > a baby's rattle. > > This is ridiculous. > > I wonder just what type of computer you *will* use. You don't like Macs, Unix, > and Windows, you won't use Apples, and now you think Commodore 64s are fit > for the pediatric population only. I only shudder to think of the invective > you'd heap on an Atari. > > Are you this much of a curmudgeon in real life? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Funk is its own reward. -- George Clinton ---------------------------------- > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 09:53:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <003e01c1ead6$a0eef3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Not exactly, but if you send me $15K, I'll send it to you. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I do have a II+, still, though I gave the other one to someone on the > > list not long ago. I've also got a IIe and a IIc, though, now that I've > > pulled the PSU from the IIe, it's on its way out, and not even the PSU > > on the IIc is worth taking out, so the whole thing will ultimate go, > > once I unplug the socketed reuseable parts. > > So you're saying you have an Apple 1 that you THINK may be an Apple II+ or > an Apple //e or an Apple //c but you're not sure? I can help you identify > it. If it's just a standalone board, it's most likely an Apple-1. > > Do you have a picture of it? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 09:53:07 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: wang 2200 MVP & more looking for home (fast!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423065738.02162740@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Jim Battle wrote: > Last night I was contacted by Joe Kultgen about a wang 2200 MVP he needs to > get rid of by the end of the month. Although I'm into the 2200, I'm > interested in just a few early models. Any idea where Joe is? Doc From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 09:54:24 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020423145424.88197.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Chris Wren wrote: > Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, > that might be looking for a home? No, but you _can_ build your own. The 1802 is not an impossible chip to find. For the original Elf, the TIL311 displays are available in a few places, but still pricey. You don't have to use them, but they are nice. Nothing else in the Elf is hard to find (4011, 4013, 4066, etc.) Details at http://incolor.inebraska.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-33.htm -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 09:51:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784486@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > And today you have enough hardware in a PC box to support > 5,000 people doing the same thing, not that your lust for faster > hardware is over, because unix is doing things that Ken and Dennis > never envisioned. It's a shame that it has so much power, and yet is so poorly engineered, but I don't' suppose that's the point here. > ""If we prevent them from doing stupid things, we also prevent > them from doing creative things"" - Cant Remember Who But abstaining from stupid things is not the same as preventing others from doing them. In other words, it can't hurt to be careful what you do, yourself, and to make the judgment whether this thing which you're about to do is actually worth, for instance, a sacrifice of consistency. > And these new things are seem seemless because the system > concepts are extensable with flexability in depth Seamless is a very relative term, but ok, I'll go with that. > Winblows by contrast has the depth of leftist reason and > the flexability of a socialist utopian machine gunner setting up > 40 paces from a fresh dug mass grave ditch. > and like winblows, equal use and benifit to you if your aim > and desire > dont fit with theirs. Wow, you're really down on these "leftists," aren't you. I'm certainly glad I've never met one ;) They sound scary, especially if they're that much like windows. > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. ...which leads to new ideas, which lead, of course, to cheese. In other words, you may want to be more clear about your logic here. Even though I agree in principle with the above, it's very sensational, and there's nothing to support it. > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are > not liberals > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) I really hope you're not trying to make this into a more political discussion than it is now. > > It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe > that needs to > > be standarded! > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. I don't think so. The fact that the standard exists, and is generally followed, doesn't prevent somebody from making a new standard or an extension to the old one where necessary. > New protocols are invented every day, the usefull ones end up > being adopted and the bad ones on the ashheap. It would be great if it did work that way -- now who's being utopian? ;) > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. You _can_ with XFree86, and friends. I certainly hope you don't think that those are the only X servers available. Some servers (while being very nice programs) don't have this feature. For the sake of argument I'll assume that you know all of this already, and point out that you could also use keys on the keyboard, if you so desire. I have done it before while using a Macintosh one-button mouse. > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has > raped the planet > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in > mass graves ) Ack -- not the leftists again! > we can get along back to the accent of man. What kind of accent does man have? I hope it's not southern. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 09:56:31 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <004601c1ead7$0e6a4bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > OK, OK ... you win ... I've got a dozen of them tucked away. You can > > have em for advance payment of $15,000 each ... in cash only, plz, plus > > $12 for freight via USPS parcel post. > > That's a bit high. If you have a dozen to sell, that should tilt the > market for them downwards. If this last one sold for $14,000 then these, > in untested, as-is condition, should sell for only about $9,000 each. > > I'll buy one from you. Do you have a PayPal account? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 09:55:29 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784487@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Your a Holocaust denier ? Ok, I was wondering when somebody was going to mention Hitler. Thread closed -- we can all go home now. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:01:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230134.VAA11001@conman.org> Message-ID: <006401c1ead7$cb1e18a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > so I meant that while you may have software that creates really pretty decent > > code for one platform, that same source code may not produce as good a product > > on another, and, in fact, may produce pretty bad code for yet another set of > > hardware. There's plenty of evidence of that, at least according to people > > with whom I routinely interact. > > Depends upon the compiler, and also what you are trying to do. > Yes, it does, which was my point. There are limits, though. > > > I personally code in assembler for the MCU's I use and occasionally use a > > compiler if I have an environment where timing is not critical all the time > > and where it's easier to use logic spelled out in 'C' or Pascal. That often > > means that interrupt code is written in assembler while message generation or > > communication code is produced by a compiler. Portability is seldom an issue > > for me. > > For embeded systems I don't think portability is an issue really. And > while I'm not sure if you work on embedded systems or not, if you are > writing interrupt code, then yes, I can see why you would use assembler for > that (heck, even the Linux kernel has the low level interrrupt routines in > assembler). Me, I haven't had need to write an interrrupt handler in oh, > maybe eight to ten years, but my code tends to be more of an application > level that may or may not run on different computers. > I just finished an interrupt handler before breakfast, so I guess it hasn't been as long for me. Of course, it's in 805x assembler ... > > -spc (Have code that's moved from SGIs to Suns to IBMs to HPs to PCs > to Amigas to ... ) > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 10:03:05 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again. Message-ID: After a long DEC-inflicted delay, I finally found time to replace the Altos' CMI doorstop with a 20MB Seagate ST225. The ST225 formats fine in the Diags and passes all read/write/seek tests, but neither CP/M nor MP/M, booting from floppy, are able to access the drive. I'm fairly sure I'm missing a critical step, like partitioning and making a filesystem, but there's a double hitch. I know nothing about CP/M _and_ nothing about the Altos. Online info is non-existent for the 580 and bewilderingly abundant for CP/M. I'm soliciting "favorite CP/M tutorial" recommendations, as well as a Cx4 for reading the HDD from the OS. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:05:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230150.VAA11028@conman.org> Message-ID: <006a01c1ead8$52c8a040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > > But to catagorize all of them as ``development-related tools'' is a > > > disingenious thing to say. > > > > > > > disingenuous, is what you mean, isn't it? > > Yes it is. That's what I get for not taking the time to look up the > proper spelling. > Well, I had to pick on you about something. > > > Why would anyone outside the UNIX/APPLE world care about postscript files? > > That was once a popular format, but things change. > > PDF seems to be a very popular format these days and that's based upon > PostScript. You can still get printers that support PostScript but hey, if > PostScript isn't your bag, then there are programs to convert the output > from TeX/LaTeX into your favorite printer format (as long as documentation > exists for it that is). > Which is why PS is of no particular use to most of us. > > > > > Even in hardware development, the > > > > software is a burden. It's a burden on the cost of other goods and > > > > services. > > > > > > What does this even mean? > > > > It simply means that if you have to generate software that's not what your > > main product line is, it's overhead. If you're a school system and you have > > to write your own code to manipulate the test score records demanded by the > > legislature, that's an overhead item, since it doesn't contribute to the > > process of educating the kids. If you're a hardware developer and you have to > > write a compiler for the CPU you've designed into the gate array you're going > > to ship, that's overhead that adds to the systemic burden, yet doesn't > > increase the price you can get for your product. Unless you're selling > > software, generating software is a cost, not a benefit. > > You can either manage the test scores on paper, or on a computer. While > it may seem to be cheaper to do it by hand, there are benefits to going the > computer route, expense or not. Storage space is one consideration. Speed > of processing is another. Unless you really advocate going back to paper > records for everything? > Whichever way you do it, it's overhead, since it doesn't contribute to the bottom line. > > You're going to have to write an assembler too, else you end up with a > useless piece of silicon. Face it---without software, programmable hardware > isn't going to do much other than be an expensive paperweight. I would > contend that without software, then who in their right mind is going to use > your hardware? > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. > > And it's not like you, as the hypothetical hardware chip maker, have to > start from scratch and generate a compiler from the ground up. GCC can be > configured to compile code for your chip, and while such a task isn't > trivial, it's easier than having to generate a compiler from the ground up > (and yes, documentation exists for this although how good it is, I'm not > sure). And with GCC, you get not only a C compiler, but C++, Fortran and > Ada as well. And if GCC is not to your liking, there is also LCC, which was > designed from the ground up to be an easily retargettable C compiler (and > that comes with extensive documentation). > That doesn't take the task out of the overhead column, though. > > -spc (Guess its back to using the abacus to keep business records ... ) > The abacus is in the facilities column, which is overhead, and using it is overhead. > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:11:35 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230210.WAA11064@conman.org> Message-ID: <007c01c1ead9$28fda980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:10 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > It's true that there are lots of books on how to use various software > > applications. Having lots of them is good because people will want to use the > > software in different ways and not always in the same way. Programmers should > > read these books so they know how programs are used. They should also read > > them to find out how useful a helpful error or diagnostic message can help. > > As for the quality of documentation, I've found statements in Linux documents > > that were so outdated as to be patently false, having omitted critical terms > > such as "NOT." > > Linux, unfortunately, is a fast moving target and by the time books do > come out for the the kernel side of things, Linux has already moved on. I > suppose it's one of the prices ones pays for ever evolving code. > What you mean here is that before the job is finished, the LINUX team has moved on, leaving their work product essentially useless for the majority of potential users. > > [ Dilbertesque situations deleted ] > > > No, I don't wonder. This situation can't be blamed on the mangers either, > > though, because the programmers shouldn't tolerate this. > > I haven't met *any* other programmers that would even think of not > tolerating this. One friend of mine, where he worked, was asked what > hardware should be used for a new private phone switch (used to manage the > phone system at a mid sized company). They didn't listen to him and picked > PC hardware. They then asked him what OS to use. They didn't listen to him > (he wanted either FreeBSD or Linux) and they picked Windows NT. > > For a phone switch. > > He stayed. He bitched, a lot, but he stayed. And got it working (to a > degree). Me, personally, I would have refused to work with such crap under > those conditions but most of my programmer friends (okay, all of them) > would. And did. It came across as a challenge to them. > He obviously saw things differently than you. Where one works has to be a considered choice. > > I consider them insane, but hey, they're still working and I'm not. So > there you have it (I've quit a job because I didn't agree with the coding > standards but that was several years ago. My current unemployment is due to > working for a completely insane boss who's goal in life seems to be to die > at work (``I had pnemonia for six weeks and did *I* take time off from > work?'' And he was back to work two days after having some heart work done) > and I took a few weeks off when I had bronchitus). > There's a lesson there, isn't there? > > > There'll always be disgreement on what's wanted, until it's written down and > > signed. If you can, get your boss to write you a "statement of work" which > > includes your precise requirements including test criteria and schedule. > > Usually schedule and workload can be adjusted early in the project, so if it > > doesn't suit you, or, if, early in the progress of the work, you discover a > > serious obstacle, that can be dealt with rationally. If you just quietly go > > away, letting him plan his schedule on your acceptance of his schedule and > > task loading, it's on you. If he doesn't allow you any input, it's on him, > > and you should emphasize those issues in a memo. It won't help either of you > > to pretend the problem doesn't exist. > > Again, getting back to my friend who worked on a phone switch based on > NT---his team hired a programmer who swore up and down that he could program > under C++ and understood networking, yet three weeks later he still couldn't > compile a simple C++ hello world style program, and had no clue what sockets > are and you can bet my friend screamed up and down. > Most programmers don't know their butt from a hot rock. Some of them are smart enough to learn. Others aren't. This notion is not just limited to programmers, however. It applies to managers, car mechanics, and physicians as well. > > It did no good. They couldn't get rid of the programmer, and no amount of > memo writing or walking up the management chain would fix that. > > > > -spc (Oh, forgot to tell you ... I won't tell you the specs at all, but > > > that shouldn't affect the time schedule any ... ) > > > > > Perhaps the programmers should simply refuse to work that way, rather than > > abjectly refusing to adhere to formal specifications, established policies, > > etc. Either way, they're likely to be fired when all is said and done. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Bingo! > > -spc (The Emperor may have no clothes, but he can still behead you ... ) > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:13:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230214.WAA11073@conman.org> Message-ID: <008601c1ead9$623f4140$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, so what's the verdict? How should multi-threaded "spirited" discussions, which often wander all over the place be handled, where quoting the context is concerned? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Dave McGuire said: > > > > > Has Microsoft really steered us toward a future full of nontechnical > > > > > computer programmers? > > > > > > > > That's my point, Dave! > > > > This comment applies to the sentence before that, which was, > > > > " Umm, a programmer that doesn't know what a regular expression is, is no > > programmer at all." > > And your quoting style didn't help any; it was hard for me to determine > what you were replying to exactly. > > -spc (Context context context ... ) > > From rhb57 at vol.com Tue Apr 23 10:18:18 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784484@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: The last one I worked with had a 33,600 Hayes external on it and dial-in was nice, plus part of the OS/400 had a system to dial out to IBM when errors occured, to report them to IBM's tech support automatically. Of course this was a brand new unit that was under lease with IBm so the support function was all built into the cost. We were tied to an identical unit on T1 that was the comapny's headquarters in PA as well and they shared together, live 24/7. It was great until the programmers in PA decided to transfer a large database or run an upgrade program remotely, and forgot that they needed to set the CPU usage for that function lower - and they slowed our whole process down for hours. Real bad when the warehouse was in the process of pulling stock, we were running reports and invoices, and other important things happening. A 1 second stock item lookup turned into a 7 minute lookup since PA's cpu usage took priority. Oh well they were so well managed that the HQ in PA went bankrupt without warning one day and the KY unit went up for sale to Fleming Foods. Now I have a feelingt hat Fleming bought it up to eventually close it, to kill competitors. They have a huge distro warehouse in Goodlettsville (Nashville suburb) not 120 miles away and this is really nothing compared to their Nashville area setup. Since the AS/400 is still on lease I guess IBM will get it back but if I ever get access to their setup (if/when it happens) I'm gonna get as much from either give-aways or outright sales, as possible. Terminals, twinax, token ring, routers, CSA/DSA, ethernet managed hubs, etc. There has to be 50 miles of twinax in the 2 buildings as it is. I know as I regularly re-ended twinax and type 1 genderless TR connectors that others in the past had installed sloppily. Of course a crappy routing and a high lift forklift make for a nice repair job when the forklift catches an overhaed twinax cable and tears it out. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Smith => Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:03 AM => To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' => Subject: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => > -----Original Message----- => > From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhb57@vol.com] => => > Remote dial-in access via an external modem should also be => > available besides => > terminals (twinax and 5250 emulators) as well as ethernet, => > TR, etc - all in => > the adapters added to it. => => You're right. It even came with the 2400bps modem ;) -- and => at least one twinax block. => => Chris => => Christopher Smith, Perl Developer => Amdocs - Champaign, IL => => /usr/bin/perl -e ' => print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); => ' => From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 10:20:47 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: What the hell is this blatant political bullshit doing on this mailing list? Off-topic postings, flame wars, spam, and now this. Laudie, laudie, what comes next? Bring on the kiddie porn! On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > left have butchered 200 million people, > > In first place we have Stalinist USSR that butchered 60 million > of its own people. > In second Place is Mao who murdered 40 Million of his own > people > In third place is the National Socialists (Nazi) under Hitler > with 20 Million dead > > Those are the top 3 of the left > > > I don't agree with your political descriptions. > > Your a Holocaust denier ? > > > Windows I use if I have too. > > Sure, we all end up in the have-to mode all the time . > > > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > > > > > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > > > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > > > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > > > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > > > I always got lost in political terms. True or False do matter but I > > don't have all the information to say that is true or false or a ring > > oscillator. > > Thats the leftist brainwashing at work, when people can no longer > identify right or wrong or true or false, they are ready to be fed lies > and be complicit with horrendus evil, as the 200 million murdered, > thats 4 times the 43 Million battle dead of all wars, would testify > if the dead could talk. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Apr 23 10:19:59 2002 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <01KGWC38GM8I90SULR@cc.usu.edu> Jerome Fine said: > By the way, for myself, I would VERY much appreciate > being in touch with all individuals who have a copy of the > RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 so that we might exchange > information about RT-11. I have a copy. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 10:23:18 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <003e01c1ead6$a0eef3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Not exactly, but if you send me $15K, I'll send it to you. $15K for a picture? Will it include nude girls in the background? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 10:25:17 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <004601c1ead7$0e6a4bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe > aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. While that may not be true about the bandwidth used on this thread, it is probably true of the bandwidth you've used trashing Apple (and just about everything else out there as well...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing if everything else sucks so bad?) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 10:26:34 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: NEC Risc Server (2100?) Message-ID: Yes, Glen, I know already. No offense, but I'm looking for information, rather than opinion. I'm looking for info on an RT-4620-27A5S dual-CPU tower. It appears to be an EISA? RAID-equipped server. All I can find is some references on the NetBSD list, with no details as to the hardware. Is it really, finally, truly the mythical NT-only computer? Doc From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 23 10:28:17 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <003601c1ead6$83c4d3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 02 08:52:39 am Message-ID: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> And thusly Richard Erlacher spake: > > Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in > elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't make > that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to > her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were > 10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one > considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video toy market to > play in rather than the home computer market, because they couldn't compete > with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with RS' low-end. > That low-end, e.g. COCO wasn't much to compete with. All these were capable > if you were determined to make them into what they weren't, but if you wanted > a home computer, you were better off buying something that was alread a > computer. > I don't understand how you can call the Commodore 64 a "video toy". My C64 was used for games, but it was also used to do spreadsheets and word processing. Now compare the cost of the 64 to a PC/AT at the time. And if it wasn't for this "video toy", I would not be where I am today. (Actually, I started with the PET, but that is pretty close to a 64) And I believe that the C64 graphics kicked the PC/AT's ass... ;) Cheers, Bryan From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:47:32 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204222105.g3ML5ii09289@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4B8AC.9CFBF31E@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <002001c1eade$2ebf1ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> now, this is just a short excerpt ... > ""If we prevent them from doing stupid things, we also prevent > them from doing creative things"" - Cant Remember Who > > And these new things are seem seemless because the system seamless > concepts are extensable with flexability in depth extensible flexibility > > Winblows by contrast has the depth of leftist reason and > the flexability of a socialist utopian machine gunner setting up flexibility > 40 paces from a fresh dug mass grave ditch. > and like winblows, equal use and benifit to you if your aim and desire > dont fit with theirs. don't > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. Flexibility Every one of your posts has this sort of syntax/orthographic error in quantity. Doesn't your OS' email handler have a spell-checker? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Moyers" To: Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Monday 22 April 2002 20:28, you wrote: > > > > Ok so you dont know anything about unix, thats what you are > > > saying here. > > > > True, but considering most of unix was developed > > in a educational atmosphere were only a few programs ran > > -- text editor -- C Compiler -- TROFF at once because that > > all a student or staff member could run because resorce limitations. > > And today you have enough hardware in a PC box to support > 5,000 people doing the same thing, not that your lust for faster > hardware is over, because unix is doing things that Ken and Dennis > never envisioned. > > http://www.nop.org/misc/unix/ken-and-den.gif > > ""If we prevent them from doing stupid things, we also prevent > them from doing creative things"" - Cant Remember Who > > And these new things are seem seemless because the system > concepts are extensable with flexability in depth > > Winblows by contrast has the depth of leftist reason and > the flexability of a socialist utopian machine gunner setting up > 40 paces from a fresh dug mass grave ditch. > and like winblows, equal use and benifit to you if your aim and desire > dont fit with theirs. > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > > > Its also apparent that everything you have been told about it came > > > from those equally ignorant, they are all wrong. > > > > What is true or false is not important as this is the view I have > > of the systems with the knowlage and understanding from what I have > > seen. > > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > > > Gimp dont translate to a tty very well, but an xterm is certainly the > > > bitmapped representation of the tty. > > > > BUT I MAY NOT WANT a bit map when running under XWINDOWS! > > I want a 80x25 screen (640x480) because I can read the screen for > > text-editing! > > No font's under X-windows (linux) would give me that! > > > What makes you think they wont ? you can have any size you want. > > > > > Unix already has this X11 is a standard you can run your sun apps > > > your irix apps your freebsd apps all on the GUI of your linux box all > > > at once. and last time i looked, all the other systems have adopted > > > our plumbing, not the other way around. > > > > It is not the plumbing -- it is what goes down the pipe that needs to > > be standarded! > > > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. > > New protocols are invented every day, the usefull ones end up > being adopted and the bad ones on the ashheap. > > Software darwinism is a good thing. > > > > > eh ? what would be wrong with a nice large 4096 x 3192 screen > > > with whatever size fonts you desire ? and the ability to populate > > > that screen with the workload of a whole stack of boxes. > > > 1) Not everybody has the same standard fonts! > > 2) I like 1 screen 1 program and screen flipping. > > This is wrong ... X11 does come with a full set of standard > fonts. and adding more is easy. > > > > "Well the end user experience" is system agnostic except > > > for the winblows limitations that dumbs your system down > > > to the microset winblows can provide. unix has point and > > > click too, but it isnt implimented stupidly. > > > > But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! > > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. > > > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > > > After 40 years waiting for public space travel, my faith in NASA > > is wearing thin. > > Public space travel to where ? > > I also dream of the day when a colony on mars is in full tilt of the 100 > - 1000 year job of terraforming the place, complete with a planetary > mag field generator to fend off them nasty solar rays, but we are > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has raped the planet > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in mass graves ) > > When the social enginners are no longer putting the jackboots > of goverment on the necks of the acheavers in the name of > "social justice" and the envirowackos stand fully discredited > by the emissions data from the volcano Penetubo, perhaps then > we can get along back to the accent of man. > > Raymond > > From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 23 10:50:06 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <006a01c1ead8$52c8a040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: SNIP----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. Also, if you use a table driven assembler, it takes all of about 20 minutes to generate a table for a totally new architecture... Peter Wallace From bill at timeguy.com Tue Apr 23 10:51:03 2002 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020423105000.X25984-100000@outpost.timeguy.com> You could always build your own. It's more fun that way anyhow. You can see the original plans and articles on my web site; http://incolor.inebraska.com/bill_r On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, John Chris Wren wrote: > Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, > that might be looking for a home? > > --John > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 10:53:45 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: References: <004601c1ead7$0e6a4bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC59FA9.9358.1A384BA@localhost> [Radio voice] Hello guy and gals, wellcome to the anual Sam/Dick roundup > > Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe > > aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. [RV] Not a world class kick off, but at least Dick got the ball roling > While that may not be true about the bandwidth used on this thread, it is > probably true of the bandwidth you've used trashing Apple (and just about > everything else out there as well...why don't you just use some sticks > and dirt to do your computing if everything else sucks so bad?) [RV] Yes, Sam is taking over. A short sprint over the 180 degree line and back to Dick... [RV] What's next ? Stay tuned and wait for more from the boys... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 10:53:45 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: References: <003e01c1ead6$a0eef3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC59FA9.18805.1A384CA@localhost> > > Not exactly, but if you send me $15K, I'll send it to you. > $15K for a picture? Will it include nude girls in the background? Isn't a nude Apple 1 enough for you ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 10:53:45 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:00 2005 Subject: somewhat OT: offensive shirts (was Apple-1 Auction conclusion) In-Reply-To: References: <20020422195852.49022.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC59FA9.14663.1A384D9@localhost> > > Auction number? I was curious about a shirt that costs more than a > > decent automobile. I did find this... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=861057082 > > ... but it looks suspicious to me - too much like a shill auction. The > > "going rate" on completed auctions for the "offensive" A&F t-shirt seems > > to be $200+/-$50. Could someone tell me what's up with these shirts ? > Maybe I should make a VCF shirt that offends some ethnic group and makes > big headlines. Not only will the VCF get publicity (not the best > publicity, but we're all whores) but I'll be able to sell the shirts for > stupid amounts of money on eBay. Well, I'd rather suggest t's like 'Amiga is lame' or 'Fogett Atari' ... You know, stuff wich may have been offensive to geeks 10 years ago ... Either we sell them for their nostalgic value or to fuel ne home comuter wars :) > eBay has made so many things possible. Where would we be without it? Both off us would own an Apple 1 at a reasonable price ? -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:57:51 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> Message-ID: <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well taken. It does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it realy don't compare. That's probably the primary reason for Windows' success. The fact that *NIX has focused on other things is why it's not popular with folks engaged in other pursuits. However, because of Windows' amazing popularity (despite its sometimes glaring weaknesses) other application types are finding their way into the Windows environment. Because of the ghastly results produced under UNIX for the EDA community, not to mention the 2-orders-of magnitude-higher prices, this is welcomed by those of us who rely on EDA tools to make our living. The tools we had under UNIX used to break down just as often as under Windows, but they cost WAY more, and one couldn't blame the OS. All the *NIX sophistry is what has cause the decline of *NIX popularity in general, and the MS-hating doesn't do a thing to help the *NIX community. All the MS-haters' rants do is shore up the belief that it's just sour grapes. If one could take one of today's high school grad's and plunk him/her down in front of a *NIX box and be able to get a little useful work from him/her THAT SAME DAY, which one certainly can do with Windows, then *NIX would be much more widely used. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bramwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:22 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > I didn't catch the posting that seems to have started all this, but ignorance > never seems to stop anyone *else* from stating an opinion, so here's mine :-) > > A few years back I spent a little time working for a small company whose primary > focus was Unix system software. They did some Windows work, and this was their > eventual downfall because they were bought out by McAfee who didn't have a clue > what to do with the Unix stuff and weren't interested in finding out. > > I was the last remaining employee of the original company. For most of the last > year of its operation I did pretty much all the system administration, > lightweight hardware maintenance, bug fixing, and many of the enhancements to > the two Unix products that had been the mainstay of the company. I forget > exactly how many machines we had and exactly what they ran, but it was something > like: > Hardware OS Notes > ======== == ===== > HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 9.x > HP/Apollo 700 HP/UX 10.01 + 10.10? dual boot > DEC Alpha 2000 (?) OSF 1 > Motorola Mxxx Motorola Unix v.X forgotten machine > Motorola Myyy Motorola Unix v.Y & OS version names > SUN Sparc 5 Solaris 2.5.1 > SUN SLC Solaris 2.5.1 > SUN 3/60 SunOS 4.1.1 > IBM RS6000 AIX v.X & v.Y forgotten versions, > dual boot > Intel SCO Unix > Intel Dynix > Intel ?nix more memory loss > > I am missing a couple of machines and maybe one more OS. Before I started with > the company I had never even heard of some of these variants. The point of all > this is that the same code base built on ALL these things. Sure, we had a > "portability" library of our own to make it easier, there was a fair amount of > #ifdef stuff, and we had to tinker with GNU autoconf to get the builds smooth, > but I could manage ALL of it. We used Emacs and gcc/gdb on all the machines, > and a freeware distributed backup package (Amanda) to run complete backups of > everything automatically (well, OK, I had to change the tapes manually). Of > course, with the network applications that typically come with Unix (telnet, > ftp, NFS, X Windows, etc.) I could sit at my own desk and get at every machine > conveniently and run a parallel build on all the machines. That would have been > completely impossible with the Microsoft (bundled) products available at that > time. > > Now, I've watched people trying to do software development on Windows systems > over the years, and I've done a little myself here and there. Every time there > is a new service pack or OS release there are wailings and rendings of clothes > on all sides. New licenses have to be bought for compilers, new versions of the > network backup client have to be purchased, very often a whole new machine has > to be bought, the sys admins have to do all sorts of black magic to get the new > machines to "play nice" with the old ones on the network, and a whole new set of > OS idiosyncracies has to be mastered. I have never observed anything similar in > Unix development shops (well, OK, the more organised ones, anyway). Oh, and > even *less* upheaval takes place in VMS shops BTW, but VMS has other problems. > > So: > 1. it is perfectly possible to write highly portable software, and once the > initial portability setup is done the rest is not particularly hard. > 2. there is a great deal of very useful "free" software for Unix out there in > net land, much of which you would have to pay big $ for on Windows > 3. there is NOT very much "business" software (word processors, spreadsheets, > contact management etc.) for Unix because the kind of people who write free > software aren't generally very interested in "business" stuff, and the kind > of people who write commercial software don't think there is much of a Unix > market for it (since they priced themselves out of it a while back). > 4. if I were developing software for "back end" applications (servers, > networking, etc.) I would certainly do it on Unix in preference to Windows, > and in this respect the market mostly agrees with me. > > By all means use Windows for your office work. That's about all it's good for, > and on the whole it does it fairly well. > > > Bob Bramwell Snail: 60 Baker Cr. NW | If I die in war you remember me; > ProntoLogical Calgary, AB | If I live in peace you don't. > +1 403/861-8827 T2L 1R4, Canada | - Spike Milligan (1919 - 2002) > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 10:59:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <002e01c1eadf$d52a2480$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You need to get your facts straight, Raymond, and your grammar, syntax, and orthography need work too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Moyers" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:41 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > left have butchered 200 million people, > > In first place we have Stalinist USSR that butchered 60 million > of its own people. > In second Place is Mao who murdered 40 Million of his own > people > In third place is the National Socialists (Nazi) under Hitler > with 20 Million dead > > Those are the top 3 of the left > > > I don't agree with your political descriptions. > > Your a Holocaust denier ? > > > Windows I use if I have too. > > Sure, we all end up in the have-to mode all the time . > > > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > > > > > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > > > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > > > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > > > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > > > I always got lost in political terms. True or False do matter but I > > don't have all the information to say that is true or false or a ring > > oscillator. > > Thats the leftist brainwashing at work, when people can no longer > identify right or wrong or true or false, they are ready to be fed lies > and be complicit with horrendus evil, as the 200 million murdered, > thats 4 times the 43 Million battle dead of all wars, would testify > if the dead could talk. > > > > What makes you think they wont ? you can have any size you want. > > > I tried (under linux)! > > No font gives me 80 x 25 on a 640x480 window! > > Eh ? thats the standard of a tty and any xterm can be streached > full screen and run huge fonts ... > > the font i use for xterms is 9x15bold > > > > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. > > > > How can that be? -- if only the scribes can read and write what hope > > does the common farmer have to write something profound. > > If Big Brother handed down a book of news speak we would have your > utopia then ... with all such non-words eliminated. > > The tcpip suite itself has all the rules you need, all else is userspace > and should be and must be freeform or else creativity is stiffled > just as bad as leftism stomps out creativity by removing incentive > and its slavery like condition of existance. > > Freedom isnt chaos, the free world has rules, the ip stack > has rules, but the only valid rules are those that restrict > others from .... be it an individual or the demands of the > mob ( usually led by a tyrant ) ..... impinging on that freedom. > > These quotes are good illustrations of the concepts > > "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our > will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of > others." -- Thomas Jefferson > > "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to > protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient... > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment > by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." > -- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis > > "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; > like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never > for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." > -- George Washington, in a speech of January 7, 1790 > > False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real > advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that > would take fire from men because it burns, and water because > one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except > destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are > laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither > inclined nor determined to commit crimes. > -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book > > The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the > right of the people at large or considered as individuals... > It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable > and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive > them of. -- Albert Gallatin, Oct 7 1789 > > Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption > of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the > Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers > of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to > govern well, but they mean to govern. > They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. > -- Daniel Webster > > The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised > over any member of a civilized community, against his will, > is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical > or moral, is not a sufficient warrant > -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859 > > Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its > victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live > under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. > The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity > may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for > our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with > the approval of their consciences. -- C. S. Lewis > > It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are > made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous > that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot > be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are > promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, > who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be > to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can > that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed? > -- James Madison, Federalist Papers 62 > > Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. > He might start thinking he knows what's right for you. > -- Paul Williams, `Das Energi' > > > To understand open source unix is to see the parallels > it has with the free market populated by a free people > > Its why america remains the powerhouse that it is, > we are more powerfull because we have more freedom > > All goverments that follow the leftist model are known for famine > mass murder and dispair or are following the same path > as the poor fools that went before them. > > Unix is a great system because of the same freedom, it does > not dictate the language you use or the look or feel of the > interface, the X11 primatives push look and feel into > userspace. > > Dont like Gnome or Kde ? Windomaker is my fav, > there are dozens of desktops that look like riscos or macos or > plan9 or .. the choice is all up to the user, Freedom ! > > And the choice of interface dont dictate what apps you run, > the kde and gnome stuff run fine on a windowmaker desktop > Freedom ! > > Choice ! Freedom ! Creativity ! freedom of action, freedom > from dictate. > > > > > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > > > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. > > > > I like 3 buttons better. > > Then i dont see what your complaint was here then .. > > > > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > > > > Nah ... More a "Mother Earth News" type guy. > > Much of their stuff seems wrapped around the same socialist > mindset that butchered 200 Million people. > > > > Public space travel to where ? > > Well off the planet is a good start. > > Off the planet to where ? > Every time we have reduced taxes, Kennedy, Reagan, > the boom in the economy created a boom in goverment income. > > But because leftist are not focused on the greatest tax income but > in bloodstained marxist egalitarianism the misery industry and utopian > dreamer feelgood schemes the potental and treasure of our people > has been wasted, we could have been a lot farther along, but > we have blown it on social engineering, small sips of the same > egalitarian poison that has butchered so many after they fell > into the whole leftist program. > > > > > I also dream of the day when a colony on mars is in full tilt of the 100 > > > - 1000 year job of terraforming the place, complete with a planetary > > > mag field generator to fend off them nasty solar rays, but we are > > > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has raped the planet > > > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in mass graves > > > ) > > > > More like Greed and Capitalism and OVER population! > > This is more brainwashing > Capitalism has no holocaust to its discredit > > Even bill gates has never machined gunned people into > a fresh dug ditch. > > If body count is the measure of evil, and you was to make a graph > then the leftist murder bar would reach to the moon before > the free marketers bar could be scaled to an inch. > > In the free market the goverment does not have the authority > or the power to commit such crimes, but the all powerfull > central controling goverment of the left is stained with blood > like nothing else ever seen in the history of man. > > > I never could get Mars terraformed in a 1000 years! Are you better with > > SIM-EARTH than me? BTW if my mars deed has any leagal value in the > > future I refuse to have my land terraformed YOUR way! > > I would say that perhaps sim earth, is a bit faulty, for example > if penetubo errupted on sim earth, ( it let go of more CO/2 > and SO/2 than all of mans activity in his entire history on earth ) > then their model is programmed to show enviromental disaster > > Sim Earth is wrong the same way one volcano shows that the > evirowackos are total bilthering idiots. > > Mars only needs a little warmth and it could kick start > it would warm easilly for the same reason earth is warming > resistant,, No plants on mars !!! > > On earth ... a volcano can belch an amount of CO/2 that makes > all the oil burned on earth at one time insignificant, and the only > thing that happens is faster plant growth and in 2 years several > mankind history of total possible oil burnings worth of CO2 is > gone and the envirowacko climate catastrophe left to be nothing > but their usual hairbrained nonreasoned nattering nabob effuent. > > On mars however, No plants, and lots of CO/2 frozen at the poles > and if you warm it up a bit and gassify the dri ice, the resulting > greenhouse effect can do the rest.. > > the next problem would be controling plant growth so that it didnt > suck out all the CO/2 before you could populate it with lots of us > nasty humans burning oil to feed the plants to keep it out of > slipping back to its ice age, > > On earth our food production has grown along with our CO/2 > supply, im quite convinced if it was not for mans activity > the earth would have gone back into its ice cube period. > > The plants suck up CO/2 like a sponge as the penetubo > emissions show us ... a whole human historys worth of gas > many times over is sucked up like it was nothing, > > The ice caps are already melting on mars btw, the REAL factor > for climate change, the sun is gasifying the mars poles a bit the > past couple years ( the sun is having a double peak sunspot > cycle ) its too bad leftodumbo envirowacko PC religion > that they pass off as science these days is too busy with > their leftist delusion, away from emotion, and wishfull thinking, > out here in the realm of reality and facts, there is some interesting > things happening. > Too bad they are too deep in their dogma to take notice. > > > > When the social enginners are no longer putting the jackboots > > > of goverment on the necks of the acheavers in the name of > > > "social justice" and the envirowackos stand fully discredited > > > by the emissions data from the volcano Penetubo, perhaps then > > > we can get along back to the accent of man. > > > > Darn where is BABLE fish when you need one! > > Read it again, or wait 30 years when you are wiser, then read it again. > > Raymond > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 11:15:50 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again. References: Message-ID: <003a01c1eae2$22e92de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What, exactly, do you mean by "partitioning and making a filesystem?" Are you sure you've used the correct sector size and number of sectors per track? The only Altos 580 I've dealt with had a Quantum 540. It's possible that the firmware won't support a 6-head drive. I tried a functional CMI 40-MB drive and, though it worked in a CP/M box BEFORE it was in that system, it didn't work there, and, when I removed it and put it back in the system whence it came, it didn't work there any longer either. I wouldn't blame the Altos box for that, but, who knows? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:03 AM Subject: Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again. > After a long DEC-inflicted delay, I finally found time to replace the > Altos' CMI doorstop with a 20MB Seagate ST225. The ST225 formats fine > in the Diags and passes all read/write/seek tests, but neither CP/M nor > MP/M, booting from floppy, are able to access the drive. > > I'm fairly sure I'm missing a critical step, like partitioning and > making a filesystem, but there's a double hitch. I know nothing about > CP/M _and_ nothing about the Altos. Online info is non-existent for the > 580 and bewilderingly abundant for CP/M. > > I'm soliciting "favorite CP/M tutorial" recommendations, as well as a > Cx4 for reading the HDD from the OS. > > Doc > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 11:24:49 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <007901c1eae3$642b0020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The sticks and dirt seem to work OK ... I've had better luck with them than with Apple products. (Setting up for another flame-war, are we?) Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:25 AM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe > > aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. > > While that may not be true about the bandwidth used on this thread, it is > probably true of the bandwidth you've used trashing Apple (and just about > everything else out there as well...why don't you just use some sticks > and dirt to do your computing if everything else sucks so bad?) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 11:25:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <008301c1eae3$8d63faa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's certainly a valid point, since there are a couple or three public-domain table-driven versions for the PC out there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > SNIP----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. > > Also, if you use a table driven assembler, it takes all of about 20 > minutes to generate a table for a totally new architecture... > > > Peter Wallace > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 11:27:47 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <004601c1ead7$0e6a4bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC59FA9.9358.1A384BA@localhost> Message-ID: <008b01c1eae3$cde1fd20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> [LOL!] Whazza matter? Isn't there anything interesting on TV? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > [Radio voice] Hello guy and gals, wellcome to the anual Sam/Dick roundup > > > > Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe > > > aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. > > [RV] Not a world class kick off, but at least Dick got the ball roling > > > While that may not be true about the bandwidth used on this thread, it is > > probably true of the bandwidth you've used trashing Apple (and just about > > everything else out there as well...why don't you just use some sticks > > and dirt to do your computing if everything else sucks so bad?) > > [RV] Yes, Sam is taking over. A short sprint over the 180 degree line > and back to Dick... > > [RV] What's next ? Stay tuned and wait for more from the boys... > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 11:26:00 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CC58B18.6EE9203C@jetnet.ab.ca> Raymond Moyers wrote: > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > left have butchered 200 million people, > > In first place we have Stalinist USSR that butchered 60 million > of its own people. > In second Place is Mao who murdered 40 Million of his own > people > In third place is the National Socialists (Nazi) under Hitler > with 20 Million dead It just proves that they have problems picking a healthy government system. That is not to say as a people the don't have their good and bad points otherwise. I live in Canada so I tend to feel middle road. The US governmental system has its good and bad points too. A government ruled by $$$ is just as bad as other power hungry groups. I fear Disney more than the USSR for taking away freedoms and 1984 motives. >Your a Holocaust denier ? No but once race hatred starts it is hard to get both sides to stop! > Thats the leftist brainwashing at work, when people can no longer > identify right or wrong or true or false, they are ready to be fed lies > and be complicit with horrendus evil, as the 200 million murdered, > thats 4 times the 43 Million battle dead of all wars, would testify > if the dead could talk. No -- control of people is the problem. Right now people want to stop things like porn by limiting who has access to the net via software. That is not the way to stop access of porn from children. Will M$ be given the power to say what is GOOD or EVIL? The way to stop porn and children is teach the children what avoid or limit what they do on the net and suggestions of what can placed on the net for the general public for money making sites. Myself I think religion and power of kings and governments have caused a lot of wasted death. Yes there is great evil out there. Evil -- the act of causing senseless pain and suffering. Stupidly -- causing senseless pain and suffering to your self. > If Big Brother handed down a book of news speak we would have your > utopia then ... with all such non-words eliminated. I have never clamed utopia. > Freedom isnt chaos, the free world has rules, the ip stack > has rules, but the only valid rules are those that restrict > others from .... be it an individual or the demands of the > mob ( usually led by a tyrant ) ..... impinging on that freedom. I have just read a good quote but I just can't remember it something like.The power of government is only from the sharing of individual freedoms for the common cause. > Its why america remains the powerhouse that it is, > we are more powerfull because we have more freedom Funny I thought was the USA tries harder to be free! I like adult computer games ( I don't like porn ) but there is little freedom to get the games in America from Japan. Funny I can get a dumb game in breakfast cereal. > All goverments that follow the leftist model are known for famine > mass murder and dispair or are following the same path > as the poor fools that went before them. With good governments you got a chance to kick out the real stupid ones before they get to power. > Unix is a great system because of the same freedom, it does > not dictate the language you use or the look or feel of the > interface, the X11 primatives push look and feel into > userspace. I like open source -- but linux is not the only computer OS. > Dont like Gnome or Kde ? Windomaker is my fav, > there are dozens of desktops that look like riscos or macos or > plan9 or .. the choice is all up to the user, Freedom ! And they all look like 95 to me. I use debian linux ... Red hat has too much political -- me is right and I am the only way -- Also debian is the only version you can upgrade with a modem. > Then i dont see what your complaint was here then .. It hard to find a 3 button mouse! > > Nah ... More a "Mother Earth News" type guy. > > Much of their stuff seems wrapped around the same socialist > mindset that butchered 200 Million people. I can't see how you can get a socialist mind set from reading "mother earth news". In many cases they have a strong sense of community and barter a lot. It is their choice not to use money. A little profit is good, too much is greed. > But because leftist are not focused on the greatest tax income but > in bloodstained marxist egalitarianism the misery industry and utopian > dreamer feelgood schemes the potental and treasure of our people > has been wasted, we could have been a lot farther along, but > we have blown it on social engineering, small sips of the same > egalitarian poison that has butchered so many after they fell > into the whole leftist program. Let blame specific events and people, not go on witch hunt with blanket statments. > This is more brainwashing > Capitalism has no holocaust to its discredit That is the most brainwashing statement ever on the grounds that it claims to be perfect and true and with out fault. > Even bill gates has never machined gunned people into > a fresh dug ditch. But would bill gates sell guns if that made more money for him? > I would say that perhaps sim earth, is a bit faulty, for example > if penetubo errupted on sim earth, ( it let go of more CO/2 > and SO/2 than all of mans activity in his entire history on earth ) > then their model is programmed to show enviromental disaster The model may be wrong but the point that humanity is affecting the envornment is not! > On earth ... a volcano can belch an amount of CO/2 that makes > all the oil burned on earth at one time insignificant, and the only > thing that happens is faster plant growth and in 2 years several > mankind history of total possible oil burnings worth of CO2 is > gone and the envirowacko climate catastrophe left to be nothing > but their usual hairbrained nonreasoned nattering nabob effuent. Got figures??? > the next problem would be controling plant growth so that it didnt > suck out all the CO/2 before you could populate it with lots of us > nasty humans burning oil to feed the plants to keep it out of > slipping back to its ice age Some people figure that happened about 680,000,000 years ago and the whole earth froze over. ( the sun was less warm then ) > > On earth our food production has grown along with our CO/2 > supply, im quite convinced if it was not for mans activity > the earth would have gone back into its ice cube period. That man's major envormental activity has been only the last 1000 years I don't think that is true. > The ice caps are already melting on mars btw, the REAL factor > for climate change, the sun is gasifying the mars poles a bit the > past couple years ( the sun is having a double peak sunspot > cycle ) its too bad leftodumbo envirowacko PC religion > that they pass off as science these days is too busy with > their leftist delusion, away from emotion, and wishfull thinking, > out here in the realm of reality and facts, there is some interesting > things happening. time will tell. > Read it again, or wait 30 years when you are wiser, then read it again. No I just want it translated so I can read it now! > Raymond -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 11:32:05 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020423163205.79648.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing... Because stone knives and bearskins are so much cooler; water-resistant, too. First time it rains on sticks and dirt and you'll probably get an overflow error. :-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 11:32:42 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020423163242.15911.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Not exactly, but if you send me $15K, I'll send it to you. > > $15K for a picture? Will it include nude girls in the background? *Background*?!? For $15K, it better be *delivered* by nude girls. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 23 11:35:31 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <003601c1ead6$83c4d3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2002 08:52:39 AM Message-ID: <200204231635.MAA11975@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in > elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't make > that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to > her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were > 10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. So Richard, if you had the choice, which computer would you have gotten your kids? And how did they outgrow the C64? -spc (Did they want to run Unix on it or something?) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 11:34:11 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784485@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC58D03.6C00A437@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > Ok, why would you use a windowing system? (Please note that I don't > mean any disrespect by repeating this question so much...) I like to see images while surfing and play multi-media stuff now and then, and play with a cad program or two. For command line stuff I like the old text screen. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 11:37:10 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: somewhat OT: offensive shirts (was Apple-1 Auction conclusion) In-Reply-To: <3CC59FA9.14663.1A384D9@localhost> Message-ID: > > > ... but it looks suspicious to me - too much like a shill auction. The > > > "going rate" on completed auctions for the "offensive" A&F t-shirt seems > > > to be $200+/-$50. > Could someone tell me what's up with these shirts ? Abercrombie & Fitch (upscale department store) carried a line of T-shirts that had bogus caricature ads for Chinese restaurants, laundries, etc. They pulled them from market when they started getting complaints. Now "collectors" want them. > > Maybe I should make a VCF shirt that offends some ethnic group and makes > > big headlines. Not only will the VCF get publicity (not the best > > publicity, but we're all whores) but I'll be able to sell the shirts for > > stupid amounts of money on eBay. > Well, I'd rather suggest t's like 'Amiga is lame' or > 'Fogett Atari' ... You know, stuff wich may have been > offensive to geeks 10 years ago ... Either we sell them > for their nostalgic value or to fuel ne home comuter wars :) perhaps just random Dick quotes? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 11:41:52 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Maybe OT, but quite funny Message-ID: <3CC5AAF0.12104.1CF903D@localhost> Pleas check the following site: http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html it is a incredible slow server. It_looks_ like some fundamental christian group, but what is presented as truth about Apple OSx, is so far reaching, that it could be also a parody of christian hate mongers. Hard to describe, but they draw a line from the fact that the development name for the OS X Kernel is Darwin over the usage of Daemons and the BSD icon to conclude that Apple is a satanistic and pagan company ... or something like that. So overdone that's realy funny again. chmod 666 the ultimat signe of satanic influence. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 11:40:24 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <3CC58E78.7AFAF9E9@jetnet.ab.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > What the hell is this blatant political bullshit doing on this mailing > list? Off-topic postings, flame wars, spam, and now this. Laudie, > laudie, what comes next? > > Bring on the kiddie porn! Nope that comes under ones daily SPAM! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 11:44:13 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <20020423163205.79648.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing... How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 11:44:29 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <008b01c1eae3$cde1fd20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC5AB8D.13104.1D1F537@localhost> > > [Radio voice] Hello guy and gals, wellcome to the anual Sam/Dick roundup > > > > Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe > > > > aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. > > [RV] Not a world class kick off, but at least Dick got the ball roling > > > While that may not be true about the bandwidth used on this thread, it is > > > probably true of the bandwidth you've used trashing Apple (and just about > > > everything else out there as well...why don't you just use some sticks > > > and dirt to do your computing if everything else sucks so bad?) > > [RV] Yes, Sam is taking over. A short sprint over the 180 degree line > > and back to Dick... > > [RV] What's next ? Stay tuned and wait for more from the boys... > [LOL!] > Whazza matter? Isn't there anything interesting on TV? Nothing as good as this ... well, I think I just remembered Christian Fandt taking me to my first rodeo ever last year :) It just took over. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 11:42:33 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <3CC58EF9.A32E872@jetnet.ab.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > SNIP----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. > > Also, if you use a table driven assembler, it takes all of about 20 > minutes to generate a table for a totally new architecture... > > Peter Wallace Unless you have say a 12 or 18 bit computer... most table assemblers are 16 or 32 bit ints. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 23 11:47:08 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <006a01c1ead8$52c8a040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2002 09:05:36 AM Message-ID: <200204231647.MAA12037@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > PDF seems to be a very popular format these days and that's based upon > > PostScript. You can still get printers that support PostScript but hey, if > > PostScript isn't your bag, then there are programs to convert the output > > from TeX/LaTeX into your favorite printer format (as long as documentation > > exists for it that is). > > Which is why PS is of no particular use to most of us. What's this ``most of us'' business, Kimosabe? PostScript is of apparently no use to you; extrapolating that to the rest of the world is a leap of logic. By your logic, the world has no use for Unix and people who use it are deluding themselves, yet I still know a majority of people that use it. > > You're going to have to write an assembler too, else you end up with a > > useless piece of silicon. Face it---without software, programmable hardware > > isn't going to do much other than be an expensive paperweight. I would > > contend that without software, then who in their right mind is going to use > > your hardware? > > > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. If you have an assembler for a core, wouldn't you then just use the existing core? Call me silly, but to me that sounds like it wouldn't contribute to the bottom line since you are spending time designing a core which already exists. > > -spc (Guess its back to using the abacus to keep business records ... ) > > The abacus is in the facilities column, which is overhead, and using it is > overhead. Well gee, the box I use to store the money is is also overhead then. Might as well toss that out, along with the abacus. -spc (Sheesh) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 11:52:56 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: References: <20020423163205.79648.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC5AD88.20431.1D9B096@localhost> > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing... > How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? Uh-Oh ... acceptable when he can seperate the used dirt form earth itself ... if not, we get 6x10^24 kg as mass for the computer... I'd rather not calculate this. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 23 11:53:22 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <007c01c1ead9$28fda980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2002 09:11:35 AM Message-ID: <200204231653.MAA12073@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > I consider them insane, but hey, they're still working and I'm not. So > > there you have it (I've quit a job because I didn't agree with the coding > > standards but that was several years ago. My current unemployment is due to > > working for a completely insane boss who's goal in life seems to be to die > > at work (``I had pnemonia for six weeks and did *I* take time off from > > work?'' And he was back to work two days after having some heart work done) > > and I took a few weeks off when I had bronchitus). > > There's a lesson there, isn't there? Really? Please, do tell me what that lesson is. -spc (Whose work ethic precludes dying at work) From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 23 11:54:01 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <008601c1ead9$623f4140$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2002 09:13:11 AM Message-ID: <200204231654.MAA12081@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Well, so what's the verdict? How should multi-threaded "spirited" > discussions, which often wander all over the place be handled, where quoting > the context is concerned? Inline. -spc (Please see above) From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 23 11:59:33 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2002 09:57:51 AM Message-ID: <200204231659.MAA12112@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well taken. It > does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it realy don't compare. > That's probably the primary reason for Windows' success. My GOD Richard! Can't you spell? Do you not have a spell checker? Does your email client not support one? Here, let me help you ... R-E-A-L-L-Y. That's ``really'' with two (2) Ls. > All the *NIX sophistry is what has cause the decline of *NIX popularity in > general, and the MS-hating doesn't do a thing to help the *NIX community. ``Unix is dead.'' -- Byte Magazine, 1990. [rest of quoted message deleted ] -spc (Must not respond to Richard ... must not respond ... ) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 12:01:31 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20020423170131.54897.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > I don't understand how you can call the Commodore 64 a "video toy". I certainly don't. For several years, it was the source of my paycheck. > My C64 was used for games, but it was also used to do spreadsheets and > word processing. I didn't do > Now compare the cost of the 64 to a PC/AT at the time... More like the original PC - both came out about the same time - 1982. The C-64 was $595 (no disk), the original PC was $2880, 64KB of RAM and, also, no disk. The PC-AT came out several years later with a standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. ISTR it took several years until the PC (and descendents) beat the C-64 in total sales in dollars and years after that until it passed in total units sold (the C-64 had a run of about 17 million, IIRC). > And I believe that the C64 graphics kicked the PC/AT's ass... ;) Up until EGA, that was true. But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 12:02:39 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <3CC5AD88.20431.1D9B096@localhost> Message-ID: <20020423170239.21935.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans Franke wrote: > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your > > > computing... > > > How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? > > Uh-Oh ... acceptable when he can seperate the used dirt form > earth itself ... if not, we get 6x10^24 kg as mass for the > computer... I'd rather not calculate this. 42 -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 12:04:05 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178448C@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > I like to see images while surfing and play multi-media stuff now and > then, > and play with a cad program or two. For command line stuff I like the > old > text screen. In that case, it sounds like what you really want are graphical full-screen applications, possibly with multitasking. In this case, the window decorations would just take up screen-space, and the windowing system would just take up memory, while not doing you too much good anyway. Not something that's been done yet, but it would be interesting, and it certainly wouldn't be too difficult. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:10:41 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231635.MAA11975@conman.org> Message-ID: <009701c1eae9$cc8c2260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No ... THEY at ages 10 and 8, recognized they wanted/needed a REAL computer. That's when their mom bought 'em a PC'AT clone. When they were here, which was every other weekend for most of the time until the older boy was nearly 11, and at which time he came to live with me, they had Apple]['s, a Commodore 128 that they'd once brought with them, but never used, and a range of PC-types that I used here. I simply set each of them up with a workstation and an account on the server. They played the usual games, and dinked around. They also learned about formatting their reports for school, though that was some time later. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in > > elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't make > > that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to > > her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were > > 10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. > > So Richard, if you had the choice, which computer would you have gotten > your kids? And how did they outgrow the C64? > > -spc (Did they want to run Unix on it or something?) > > From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Tue Apr 23 12:07:31 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <004601c1ead7$0e6a4bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Let's quit this line of nonsense. All the Apple products in the universe > aren't worth the bandwidth already wasted on it. > > Dick Actually, (and I think most other list members would agree with me), I think the bandwith you're using to bash classic machines (and unix) isn't worth our bandwith. -- Pat From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:13:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <00b601c1eaea$348eb8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hey! ... spell it right! it's LAWDY, LAWDY ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > What the hell is this blatant political bullshit doing on this mailing > list? Off-topic postings, flame wars, spam, and now this. Laudie, > laudie, what comes next? > > Bring on the kiddie porn! > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > > left have butchered 200 million people, > > > > In first place we have Stalinist USSR that butchered 60 million > > of its own people. > > In second Place is Mao who murdered 40 Million of his own > > people > > In third place is the National Socialists (Nazi) under Hitler > > with 20 Million dead > > > > Those are the top 3 of the left > > > > > I don't agree with your political descriptions. > > > > Your a Holocaust denier ? > > > > > Windows I use if I have too. > > > > Sure, we all end up in the have-to mode all the time . > > > > > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > > > > > > > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > > > > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > > > > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > > > > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > > > > > I always got lost in political terms. True or False do matter but I > > > don't have all the information to say that is true or false or a ring > > > oscillator. > > > > Thats the leftist brainwashing at work, when people can no longer > > identify right or wrong or true or false, they are ready to be fed lies > > and be complicit with horrendus evil, as the 200 million murdered, > > thats 4 times the 43 Million battle dead of all wars, would testify > > if the dead could talk. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:16:16 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I didn't make any decisions about the Commodore 64. My kids, and maybe their mom, did. I didn't have any of them around here, except when they'd brought theirs, which they only did once or twice. Commodore picked the market they played in with their packaging and features. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > And thusly Richard Erlacher spake: > > > > Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in > > elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't make > > that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to > > her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were > > 10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one > > considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video toy market to > > play in rather than the home computer market, because they couldn't compete > > with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with RS' low-end. > > That low-end, e.g. COCO wasn't much to compete with. All these were capable > > if you were determined to make them into what they weren't, but if you wanted > > a home computer, you were better off buying something that was alread a > > computer. > > > > I don't understand how you can call the Commodore 64 a "video toy". My C64 > was used for games, but it was also used to do spreadsheets and word > processing. Now compare the cost of the 64 to a PC/AT at the time. And if it > wasn't for this "video toy", I would not be where I am today. (Actually, I > started with the PET, but that is pretty close to a 64) > > And I believe that the C64 graphics kicked the PC/AT's ass... ;) > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 12:13:02 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178448D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > And they all look like 95 to me. I use debian linux ... Red hat has They do, don't they? Well, default configured Enlightenment/Gnome and KDE anyway. That's creativity for you ;) Debian's nice, but it has its share of "political" garbage too, like the "GNU/Linux" plastered all over the place, or the fact that they insist on keeping "non-free" software separate. NetBSD is kind of nice (not spotless), as far as politics go. > too much political -- me is right and I am the only way -- > Also debian is the only version you can upgrade with a modem. Well, strictly speaking, depending on the amount of work you'd like to put into it, you can upgrade anything with a modem. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 23 12:17:15 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC58EF9.A32E872@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > SNIP----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. > > > > Also, if you use a table driven assembler, it takes all of about 20 > > minutes to generate a table for a totally new architecture... > > > > Peter Wallace > > Unless you have say a 12 or 18 bit computer... most table assemblers are > 16 or 32 bit > ints. > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > The int size is not a big deal and can easily be worked around. Macros can easily do the needed range checking, sign extension, etc etc... Peter Wallace From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 23 12:21:34 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion Message-ID: >> Not exactly, but if you send me $15K, I'll send it to you. > >$15K for a picture? Will it include nude girls in the background? For $15k, I'll send you a pic of nude anything you want -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 23 12:27:31 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: >That's what normally >happens to MAC's. It's not unusual to see several MAC's in the dumpster. They throw out network card addresses? But then how does the cable company ID their modem users? -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 12:27:09 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <20020423170239.21935.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your > > > > computing... > > > How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? > > Uh-Oh ... acceptable when he can seperate the used dirt form > > earth itself ... if not, we get 6x10^24 kg as mass for the > > computer... I'd rather not calculate this. > 42 Would that be in TerraZuse ? From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Apr 23 12:36:04 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Maybe OT, but quite funny Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467859@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Hans Franke > > Pleas check the following site: > http://members.truepath.com/objective/propaganda.html > it is a incredible slow server. It_looks_ like some > fundamental christian group, but what is presented as > truth about Apple OSx, is so far reaching, that it could > be also a parody of christian hate mongers. > > Hard to describe, but they draw a line from the fact that > the development name for the OS X Kernel is Darwin over the > usage of Daemons and the BSD icon to conclude that Apple > is a satanistic and pagan company ... or something like > that. So overdone that's realy funny again. > > chmod 666 the ultimat signe of satanic influence. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > Nah, I think this guy really is a genuine dumbass! Wait! I must be satan-spawn! I use OS X, and I like it! -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Apr 23 12:29:16 2002 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive specs? Message-ID: >From my CSC Hard Drive Bible 7 look for Fujitsu 2532 Toshiba FD4603 YE Data 646 Paxton Astoria, OR From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 23 12:34:07 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: >Bring on the kiddie porn! Is that $15k offer for nude pics still open? Oh, wait, you said Kiddie, I thought you said Kitty... figured I could shave my wife's cat for you (man... THAT is wide open!) -chris From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Apr 23 12:53:04 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020423175304.GC19345@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:57:51AM -0600: > Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well > taken. It does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it > realy don't compare. That's probably the primary reason for > Windows' success. The reason for MS Windows success is that biz'droids are so brain damaged that they can't comprehend the usefulness of truly useful computer systems and useful software. As a result, they prefer, for example, Micro$oft Word to something more useful such as a combination of Emacs and LaTeX. Biz'droids found in large corporations are typically either learning-averse or unable to learn anything that's at least slightly complicated; they need computers that are simple for them to use, no matter how inefficient and broken-by-design the systems are. The big problem is that there aren't enough asylums to hold all of the biz'droids, so they end up in large corporations in large numbers. > All the *NIX sophistry is what has cause the decline of *NIX popularity in This is due to living in a population which discourages intellectual activity and prefers such meaningless foolishness as "professional team sporting events" (e.g. baseball, football, etc), where the average person can watch them and make use of their vocaublary by utter such wise words as "duh, footbawl!" -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 12:40:55 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020423174055.62348.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: > >That's what normally > >happens to MAC's. It's not unusual to see several MAC's in the > dumpster. > > They throw out network card addresses? But then how does the cable > company ID their modem users? Dumpster Diving Control MAC Protocol (DDCMP)? ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:41:39 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231647.MAA12037@conman.org> Message-ID: <00e001c1eaee$1fe1eae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> When I said 'us' I certainly didn't include you. Of all the people with whom I routinely interact, the only one other than myself, whom I know to be an owner of a PostScript printer is a MAC user. I only know one of them, any longer, since most of them have, ultimately, given them up in favor of PC's. In terms of home and small-office computer users, I think your assessment of my remarks is correct. That part of the world has no use for UNIX and those who try to use it for those purposes are, indeed, deluding themselves that it's going to be easier than taking the more popular course. Of course, if one is sufficiently determined ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > PDF seems to be a very popular format these days and that's based upon > > > PostScript. You can still get printers that support PostScript but hey, if > > > PostScript isn't your bag, then there are programs to convert the output > > > from TeX/LaTeX into your favorite printer format (as long as documentation > > > exists for it that is). > > > > Which is why PS is of no particular use to most of us. > > What's this ``most of us'' business, Kimosabe? PostScript is of > apparently no use to you; extrapolating that to the rest of the world is a > leap of logic. By your logic, the world has no use for Unix and people who > use it are deluding themselves, yet I still know a majority of people that > use it. > > > > You're going to have to write an assembler too, else you end up with a > > > useless piece of silicon. Face it---without software, programmable hardware > > > isn't going to do much other than be an expensive paperweight. I would > > > contend that without software, then who in their right mind is going to use > > > your hardware? > > > > > Well, you CAN design in a core for which you've already got an assembler. > > If you have an assembler for a core, wouldn't you then just use the > existing core? Call me silly, but to me that sounds like it wouldn't > contribute to the bottom line since you are spending time designing a core > which already exists. > > > > -spc (Guess its back to using the abacus to keep business records ... ) > > > > The abacus is in the facilities column, which is overhead, and using it is > > overhead. > > Well gee, the box I use to store the money is is also overhead then. > Might as well toss that out, along with the abacus. > You're allowed to "toss the baby with the bath water" if you like. It's your choice. My point was that generating software is an indirect cost not directly associated with the goal. You can take that wherever you like. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 23 12:41:36 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Apr 23, 02 01:27:31 pm Message-ID: <200204231741.NAA08057@wordstock.com> And thusly Chris spake: > > >That's what normally > >happens to MAC's. It's not unusual to see several MAC's in the dumpster. > > They throw out network card addresses? But then how does the cable > company ID their modem users? > The geek is strong with this one. From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 23 12:43:08 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231635.MAA11975@conman.org> <009701c1eae9$cc8c2260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <00d901c1eaee$54ccaba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Dick: > No ... THEY at ages 10 and 8, recognized they wanted/needed a > REAL computer. That's when their mom bought 'em a PC'AT clone. What sort of careers did they end up in? John A. From ernestls at attbi.com Tue Apr 23 12:43:23 2002 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <3CC45390.4805.3228584B@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:17 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > > > > Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. > > > Nope! He'd just throw it out with other useless oddities like his Honus > > Wagner baseball card. > > Now, beside that I still not get why baseball is called a sport, who is > Honus Wagner ? Did he own an Apple 1 ? Baseball not a sport? Sigh. You silly Germans. Just because the fans don't kill each other or the opposing fans doesn't mean that it's not a real sport. Unlike European Soccer hooligans, baseball fans are typically a much more relaxed crowd -not including the yankee fans who pride themselves on their ability to hit opposing players with batteries from 10 rows back. Baseball is certainly more of a sport than Soccer. Sure, Soccer players have to be able to run up and down the field, kick a ball, and grab their knees in pain when an opposing player runs by without touching them but that's not exactly a "sport." Make the goal the size of a Basketball hoop, and that would be a sport. Give the players long sticks, and sharp skates and then it would be a sport. Make the players 250+ pounds, and give them full armor and then it would be a sport. Trying to kick a little white ball into a goal the size of a studio apartment is not a sport. Pretending that your knee is broken is more like stage acting. Could you imagine a 2nd baseman dramatically pretending to have a broken leg just because he was slightly bumped by a runner going by? Or an outfielder writhing in agony like his back is broken just because he dropped a ball? Haha. Of course not. They would be laughed off the field but in Soccer, play acting is a required "skill." What kind of a sport is that? I always feel a little embarrassed for them when I see them hamming it up for the cameras. "Oh Mother! My leg is broken. It's worst injury ever." Then, after the referee gives him the foul, he stands back up (like a man) and runs off again. It's brilliant acting but do they ever feel ashamed? E. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:45:48 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231654.MAA12081@conman.org> Message-ID: <00e601c1eaee$b450e140$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I thought that in cases where the entire message fits on a single screen, it's easier if the reply is at the top. Putting the assorted wisecracks and wisdoms in line means one cannot as easily prune out irrelevant materials without losing contextual references. BTW, I was looking through a couple of old MOTORLA assembly listings for a few days, and they containe a pseudo-op '.SPC' which apparently means "insert a few lines of white space here." Your initials threw me a real curve for a time. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Well, so what's the verdict? How should multi-threaded "spirited" > > discussions, which often wander all over the place be handled, where quoting > > the context is concerned? > > Inline. > > -spc (Please see above) > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:47:10 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <20020423163205.79648.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> <3CC5AD88.20431.1D9B096@localhost> Message-ID: <00ec01c1eaee$e4cde7a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Oh ... there's not quite that much dirt. What's more, the dirt is pretty highly refined, and the sticks are just used to stir in the necessary impurities. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing... > > > How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? > > Uh-Oh ... acceptable when he can seperate the used dirt form > earth itself ... if not, we get 6x10^24 kg as mass for the > computer... I'd rather not calculate this. > > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 12:52:33 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:01 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231659.MAA12112@conman.org> Message-ID: <00f201c1eaef$a55e7980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Duhh! ... rented fingers ... now, where was that, anyway? BTW, I seldom use my spell checker, because I don't often wonder how something's spelled. Some words ALWAYS get the wrong spelling from me, since I don't know the correct spelling. There just aren't many of them. I went over two decades spelling propagate, in its various forms, with an 'o' where the first 'a' goes. It took that long for someone to call me on it. It was quite embarassing, since I'd gotten rather used to it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:59 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well taken. It > > does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it realy don't compare. > > That's probably the primary reason for Windows' success. > > My GOD Richard! Can't you spell? Do you not have a spell checker? Does > your email client not support one? Here, let me help you ... R-E-A-L-L-Y. > That's ``really'' with two (2) Ls. > > > All the *NIX sophistry is what has cause the decline of *NIX popularity in > > general, and the MS-hating doesn't do a thing to help the *NIX community. > > ``Unix is dead.'' > -- Byte Magazine, 1990. > > [rest of quoted message deleted ] > > -spc (Must not respond to Richard ... must not respond ... ) > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Apr 23 12:59:59 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146785A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Chris > > >Bring on the kiddie porn! > > Is that $15k offer for nude pics still open? > > Oh, wait, you said Kiddie, I thought you said Kitty... figured I could > shave my wife's cat for you (man... THAT is wide open!) > > -chris > Ah, uh, err... Damnit! You know, I had a nifty comment, but I forgot it... I must say though, it would be interesting to see your wife's shaved pussy...cat. Sorry, couldn't resist that one... ;) -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 12:53:57 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Bad Classic Operating Systems (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020423175357.25067.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I had a colleague who had a couple of "DF32" drives for his PDP8E... > > which he was never able to utilize, and I've always wondered just how > > those drives, with their small capacity, fit into the scheme of things. > > > > Dick > > > Isn't the DF32 a 32 Kword fixed head drive? I think it was used for > multi-user PDP8 systems (like a drum) That was a common use because they were word addressable (not block addressable), write-protectable by 25% increments (four toggle switches) and *fast* - no seek, just rotational latency. OTOH, they _could_ be used as a scratch disk for a compiler, or anything else. You _can_ put a filesystem on them, somewhat useful if you gang four of them together (1 DF32 + 3 DS-32) - 128KW total. I presume there is an OS/8 driver for them. I have never tried. The machines that I have with DF-32s, do not have enough core for OS/8, and in any case, I believe my platters are abraded away (the heads do not retract as with newer drives, leading to wear on the plated surface). The best I was ever able to manage was to write a program to flash the state of the rotation sensor in the LINK bit to prove that I'd rebuilt the sensor (it had caught fire before I got it). Mechanical wear of the data surface was such a problem that the drives were designed to have the motor and the electronics seperately power down. For the most part, DEC had customers switch the drives on and leave them spinning perpetually. It'd be like leaving on four table saws (similar size motor). Interesting drives, but impractical for general-purpose use. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 12:59:44 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: References: <3CC45390.4805.3228584B@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC5BD30.32745.216D943@localhost> > > > > Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. > > > Nope! He'd just throw it out with other useless oddities like his Honus > > > Wagner baseball card. > > Now, beside that I still not get why baseball is called a sport, who is > > Honus Wagner ? Did he own an Apple 1 ? Hey ... I guess I hit something ... :) > Baseball not a sport? Sigh. You silly Germans. Just because the fans don't > kill each other or the opposing fans doesn't mean that it's not a real > sport. Unlike European Soccer hooligans, baseball fans are typically > a much more relaxed crowd -not including the yankee fans who pride > themselves on their ability to hit opposing players with batteries > from 10 rows back. :) Well, I see there are a few signs of life left in the baseball crowd ... at least not all are so old that they can't lift their ass ... Serious, Kricket is more entertaining than baseball. THere you get at least a flair of the world, when an Austrailian and an Indian team plays ... and these guys still dress better ... > Baseball is certainly more of a sport than Soccer. Sure, Soccer > players have to be able to run up and down the field, kick a ball, > and grab their knees in pain when an opposing player runs by without > touching them but that's not exactly a "sport." Make the goal the > size of a Basketball hoop, and that would be a sport. Give the > players long sticks, and sharp skates and then it would be a sport. > Make the players 250+ pounds, and give them full armor and then it > would be a sport. Are you trying to point to the secon not so fancy sport thing over there ? Real sport is if the same guys go ahead and kick an odd shaped ball without any sissy armor ... Well, real men call this Rugby ... and no real comparsion possible to the slow motion action of some pampered American Football guys. > Trying to kick a little white ball into a goal the size of a > studio apartment is not a sport. Try to do better... BTW, I always expected studio apartments to be a bit larger. Oh, and before we finish: The sport is called Football, and maybe not played near where you're liveing. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 13:06:00 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: <007901c1eae3$642b0020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The sticks and dirt seem to work OK ... I've had better luck with them than > with Apple products. (Setting up for another flame-war, are we?) No, you've already surpassed the flame war quota for the CC list this month. Any more and it would just ruin next month's appetite. I'm going to Germany now to spend the money I made off the Apple-1 auction. Have any relatives you'd like me to drop in and say hello to whilst over there? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 13:06:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020423175304.GC19345@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <014001c1eaf1$9320c1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You may be onto something, but the use of bombastic descriptors such as "brain-damaged" suggest you really don't know what goes on in big companies, and have lost sight of the fact that not all people are the brightest bulbs ... just look at our Chief Executive ... even his Papa, who was considerably more articluate than he is, though not a dimwit, was not terribly clever. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Quothe Richard Erlacher, from writings of Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:57:51AM -0600: > > > Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well > > taken. It does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it > > realy don't compare. That's probably the primary reason for > > Windows' success. > > The reason for MS Windows success is that biz'droids are so brain > damaged that they can't comprehend the usefulness of truly useful > computer systems and useful software. As a result, they prefer, for > example, Micro$oft Word to something more useful such as a combination > of Emacs and LaTeX. Biz'droids found in large corporations are > typically either learning-averse or unable to learn anything that's at > least slightly complicated; they need computers that are simple for > them to use, no matter how inefficient and broken-by-design the > systems are. The big problem is that there aren't enough asylums to > hold all of the biz'droids, so they end up in large corporations in > large numbers. > > > All the *NIX sophistry is what has cause the decline of *NIX popularity in > > This is due to living in a population which discourages intellectual > activity and prefers such meaningless foolishness as "professional > team sporting events" (e.g. baseball, football, etc), where the > average person can watch them and make use of their vocaublary by > utter such wise words as "duh, footbawl!" > Keep in mind that they're the majority of the user base. > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > > From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 13:08:22 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: somewhat OT: offensive shirts (was Apple-1 Auction conclusion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > > ... but it looks suspicious to me - too much like a shill auction. The > > > > "going rate" on completed auctions for the "offensive" A&F t-shirt seems > > > > to be $200+/-$50. > > Could someone tell me what's up with these shirts ? > > Abercrombie & Fitch (upscale department store) carried a line of T-shirts > that had bogus caricature ads for Chinese restaurants, laundries, > etc. They pulled them from market when they started getting > complaints. Now "collectors" want them. > > > > Maybe I should make a VCF shirt that offends some ethnic group and makes > > > big headlines. Not only will the VCF get publicity (not the best > > > publicity, but we're all whores) but I'll be able to sell the shirts for > > > stupid amounts of money on eBay. > > Well, I'd rather suggest t's like 'Amiga is lame' or > > 'Fogett Atari' ... You know, stuff wich may have been > > offensive to geeks 10 years ago ... Either we sell them > > for their nostalgic value or to fuel ne home comuter wars :) > > perhaps just random Dick quotes? I got one: See Dick post. See Dick flame. See Dick with foot in mouth. Don't be a Dick. (Ok, so it's not my best work.) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 13:10:12 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing... > > How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? -1 Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 13:12:23 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00b601c1eaea$348eb8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Hey! ... spell it right! it's LAWDY, LAWDY ... No, that's my spelling for Gawd. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From djenner at earthlink.net Tue Apr 23 13:11:13 2002 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive specs? References: <3.0.6.32.20020423094131.0082a290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CC5A3C1.CB9F9F30@earthlink.net> Go to http://marina.mfarris.com/floppy/allfloppydrives.html. Click on a manufacturer and look for 720KB drives in the list. Dave Joe wrote: > > Does anyone have a handy list of drive specs for the various 3.5" floppy drives that they can post? I need to find a couple of old 720k drives but I don't know what part numbers to look for. > > Joe -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 13:16:41 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <014001c1eaf1$9320c1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You may be onto something, but the use of bombastic descriptors such > as "brain-damaged" suggest you really don't know what goes on in big such as when Bill Gates said, "The 80286 is brain-dead." ? > companies, and have lost sight of the fact that not all people are the > brightest bulbs ... > just look at our Chief Executive ... even his > Papa, who was considerably more articluate than he is, though not a > dimwit, was not terribly clever. Are you trying to say that he was NOT a dimwit? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 13:19:22 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: somewhat OT: offensive shirts (was Apple-1 Auction conclusion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > perhaps just random Dick quotes? > I got one: > See Dick post. > See Dick flame. > See Dick with foot in mouth. > Don't be a Dick. > (Ok, so it's not my best work.) Naaa. Just take any random post of his. How many people will THAT offend? From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 13:20:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231635.MAA11975@conman.org> <009701c1eae9$cc8c2260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <00d901c1eaee$54ccaba0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <014c01c1eaf3$8aab01e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Judging from the requests for funding, I'd say they're still in college. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Dick: > > No ... THEY at ages 10 and 8, recognized they wanted/needed a > > REAL computer. That's when their mom bought 'em a PC'AT clone. > > What sort of careers did they end up in? > > John A. > > > From foo at siconic.com Tue Apr 23 13:22:29 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Ernest wrote: > > Now, beside that I still not get why baseball is called a sport, who is > > Honus Wagner ? Did he own an Apple 1 ? > > Baseball not a sport? Sigh. You silly Germans. Just because the fans > don't kill each other or the opposing fans doesn't mean that it's not a > real sport. Unlike European Soccer hooligans, baseball fans are > typically a much more relaxed crowd -not including the yankee fans who > pride themselves on their ability to hit opposing players with batteries > from 10 rows back. Sign. Baseball is certainly NOT a sport. At least not one you'd classify amongst the other gaming events under that definition just as (American and otherwise) Football, Rugby, Basketball, etc. If there's no physical contact, it's not a sport. Physical contact in Baseball is contrived in an attempt to give the people who come to the "games" their money's worth. Also, Cricket is NOT a sport, for the same reason that Baseball is NOT a sport. A bunch of stupid men scratching their crotches with big beer guts who for the most part stand in one place chewing cud and spitting it out while watching one guy try to hit a ball with a stick thrown by another guy is NOT a sport. Ok, that doesn't necessarily describe Cricket, but it does describe Baseball, and NIETHER is a sport. > Give the players long sticks, and sharp skates and then it would be a > sport. Make the players 250+ pounds, and give them full armor and then > it would be a sport. Any game in which the objective is to attempt to play by the rules in between long bouts of two (or sometimes more) meatheads beating the shit out of each other is NOT a sport. In fact, it goes against the very definition of "sport". > not a sport. Pretending that your knee is broken is more like stage > acting. Could you imagine a 2nd baseman dramatically pretending to have > a broken leg just because he was slightly bumped by a runner going by? > Or an outfielder writhing in agony like his back is broken just because > he dropped a ball? Haha. Of course not. They would be laughed off the > field but in Soccer, play acting is a required "skill." What kind of a > sport is that? I always feel a little embarrassed for them when I see > them hamming it up for the cameras. "Oh Mother! My leg is broken. It's > worst injury ever." Then, after the referee gives him the foul, he > stands back up (like a man) and runs off again. It's brilliant acting > but do they ever feel ashamed? At least in Soccer (Football to you weirdos) people pretty much run. In Baseball they stand around wondering when it will be time to jog back into the little box they sit in while they wait for their turn to go stand with a bat. What does this have to do with classic computing? Nothing! But Baseball is definitely NOT a sport. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 13:21:52 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive specs? In-Reply-To: <3CC5A3C1.CB9F9F30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Does anyone have a handy list of drive specs for the various 3.5" > floppy drives that they can post? I need to find a couple of old 720k > drives but I don't know what part numbers to look for. Unless you need to "preserve authenticity" or the like, ... Be aware that almost any 1.4M drive, when connected to a 720K controller will function as a 720K. Therefore, in a pinch, you can get away with using 1.4M drives in lieu of 720K. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 13:27:43 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178448E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > You may be onto something, but the use of bombastic > descriptors such as > "brain-damaged" suggest you really don't know what goes on in > big companies, Actually, I would argue that the term "brain-damaged" describes more than adequately what goes on in large companies, and most small ones. I would argue that, but I'm tired of arguing... > and have lost sight of the fact that not all people are the > brightest bulbs It's a hard fact to miss. > ... just look at our Chief Executive ... even his Papa, who > was considerably > more articluate than he is, though not a dimwit, was not > terribly clever. If you're talking about the US's president, I'm not sure I can agree with your classification of "not a dimwit" for him -- or his father, or any other politician I can think of... I'm sure there are one or two who aren't idiots; I just can't think of any. > more below ... Indeed... > > average person can watch them and make use of their vocaublary by > > utter such wise words as "duh, footbawl!" > Keep in mind that they're the majority of the user base. Again, that's difficult to miss. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 13:37:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <015801c1eaf5$e2909da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No, most of my relatives perished during WWII. I have a 2nd cousin in Munich, but I think she's in India right now. I agree ... there's no sense in overdoing it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The sticks and dirt seem to work OK ... I've had better luck with them than > > with Apple products. (Setting up for another flame-war, are we?) > > No, you've already surpassed the flame war quota for the CC list this > month. Any more and it would just ruin next month's appetite. > > I'm going to Germany now to spend the money I made off the Apple-1 > auction. Have any relatives you'd like me to drop in and say hello to > whilst over there? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 13:39:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: Message-ID: <016201c1eaf6$2a32a0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah! Pretty impressive, for sticks and dirt, eh? That -1 means it overflowed your machine-infinity. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > ...why don't you just use some sticks and dirt to do your computing... > > > > How many Zuse is Dick's sticks and dirt computer? > > -1 > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 13:40:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <016a01c1eaf6$5ca5aae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well ... that's the way it's supposed to be spelled! The Lawd Gawd said so. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Hey! ... spell it right! it's LAWDY, LAWDY ... > > No, that's my spelling for Gawd. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 23 13:43:44 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <02Apr23.150827edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I didn't make any decisions about the Commodore 64. My kids, and maybe their >mom, did. I didn't have any of them around here, except when they'd brought >theirs, which they only did once or twice. Commodore picked the market they >played in with their packaging and features. I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the PC's of the same time period. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 23 13:58:23 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <3CC5AECF.7070703@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > What the hell is this blatant political bullshit doing on this mailing > list? Off-topic postings, flame wars, spam, and now this. Laudie, > laudie, what comes next? > Computer mailing lists are forever going to get blatantly political, now that the govt. is trying to get into designing and marketing computers and other tech in a big Morlock way. Best we can do is try to get divided by it, and focus the flames at that target. Some people could stand to put more thought into their flames, too, as somebody just pointed out. And post topical stuff to counter. > Bring on the kiddie porn! > Sorry, fresh out of KP here. May be some on my freenet node from when I was testing it in non-transient mode. I don't care to propagate it by looking for it, though. People will publish all kinds of outrageous crap that ends up on your node, and you won't even know it's there (that's the whole point. Also a censor-baiting drawback, potentially, but that's being worked on.) Tune in to your local Fox station or something. I see far more disturbing stuff there as a rule, anyway. jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 13:46:10 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <019201c1eaf9$1a17acc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > You may be onto something, but the use of bombastic descriptors such > > as "brain-damaged" suggest you really don't know what goes on in big > > such as when Bill Gates said, "The 80286 is brain-dead." ? > Did he really say that? I can't imagine what he'd have meant. Perhaps he was mad at the Intel folks. > > > companies, and have lost sight of the fact that not all people are the > > brightest bulbs ... > > > just look at our Chief Executive ... even his > > Papa, who was considerably more articluate than he is, though not a > > dimwit, was not terribly clever. > > Are you trying to say that he was NOT a dimwit? > I'm trying to be nice ... he was not as dumb, nor as blatantly corrupt as George II. His consummately crooked sons, Neil (of S&L scandal fame), Jeb, who helped rig the y2k election, and George Dubya, who benefitted from it, all can attest to that, though they may not be smart enough to realize it. Dick > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 14:07:20 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020423170131.54897.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01a601c1eafa$182cd740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- Bryan Pope wrote: > > I don't understand how you can call the Commodore 64 a "video toy". > > I certainly don't. For several years, it was the source of my paycheck. > > > My C64 was used for games, but it was also used to do spreadsheets and > > word processing. > > I didn't do > > > Now compare the cost of the 64 to a PC/AT at the time... > > More like the original PC - both came out about the same time - 1982. > The C-64 was $595 (no disk), the original PC was $2880, 64KB of RAM > and, also, no disk. My partner and I sold "grey market" PC/XT's in that time-frame for $1450. We provided our own drive/controller, but got the 8-slot motherboard in the standard IBM box from VAR's who had to buy more than they could use. I didn't like the retail business, BTW. > The PC-AT came out several years later with a > standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. > August of '81, IIRC. I got my technical reference in March of '82. > > ISTR it took several years until the PC (and descendents) beat the C-64 in > total sales in dollars and years after that until it passed in total > units sold (the C-64 had a run of about 17 million, IIRC). > > > And I believe that the C64 graphics kicked the PC/AT's ass... ;) > > Up until EGA, that was true. > > But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important > to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? Dick From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 14:09:25 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178448E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <01b001c1eafa$6252c640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just for the record, I didn't say that our current Chief Executive (aka DUBYA) is NOT a dimwit. I was referring to George I as "not a dimwit." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > You may be onto something, but the use of bombastic > > descriptors such as > > "brain-damaged" suggest you really don't know what goes on in > > big companies, > > Actually, I would argue that the term "brain-damaged" describes > more than adequately what goes on in large companies, and most > small ones. I would argue that, but I'm tired of arguing... > > > and have lost sight of the fact that not all people are the > > brightest bulbs > > It's a hard fact to miss. > > > ... just look at our Chief Executive ... even his Papa, who > > was considerably > > more articluate than he is, though not a dimwit, was not > > terribly clever. > > > If you're talking about the US's president, I'm not sure I can > agree with your classification of "not a dimwit" for him -- or > his father, or any other politician I can think of... I'm sure > there are one or two who aren't idiots; I just can't think of > any. > > > more below ... > > Indeed... > > > > average person can watch them and make use of their vocaublary by > > > utter such wise words as "duh, footbawl!" > > > Keep in mind that they're the majority of the user base. > > Again, that's difficult to miss. > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 23 14:10:19 2002 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oh, wait, you said Kiddie, I thought you said Kitty... figured I could > shave my wife's cat for you (man... THAT is wide open!) > Hey look! It's a bald....oh nevermind. :) g. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 14:08:16 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > PC's of the same time period. Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Apr 23 14:14:16 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006501c1eafb$0fcbf440$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Baseball is NOT a sport. It is merely a hobby practiced by typically overweight out of shape men who scratch and spit a lot. How athletic is it, really, to run 90 feet at a time about once an hour, if that? Baseball does take skill, mind you, but the players are no more athletes than those who win at Quake tournaments. Battery throwing is more of a sport and is practiced more by Raiders fans than Yankees fans. Then again, if baseball is a sport, so must be dumpster diving and that makes many of US athletes, right? :) Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ernest Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:43 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 9:17 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion > > > > > Bet you'd care if you had one to sell. > > > Nope! He'd just throw it out with other useless oddities like his Honus > > Wagner baseball card. > > Now, beside that I still not get why baseball is called a sport, who is > Honus Wagner ? Did he own an Apple 1 ? Baseball not a sport? Sigh. You silly Germans. Just because the fans don't kill each other or the opposing fans doesn't mean that it's not a real sport. Unlike European Soccer hooligans, baseball fans are typically a much more relaxed crowd -not including the yankee fans who pride themselves on their ability to hit opposing players with batteries from 10 rows back. Baseball is certainly more of a sport than Soccer. Sure, Soccer players have to be able to run up and down the field, kick a ball, and grab their knees in pain when an opposing player runs by without touching them but that's not exactly a "sport." Make the goal the size of a Basketball hoop, and that would be a sport. Give the players long sticks, and sharp skates and then it would be a sport. Make the players 250+ pounds, and give them full armor and then it would be a sport. Trying to kick a little white ball into a goal the size of a studio apartment is not a sport. Pretending that your knee is broken is more like stage acting. Could you imagine a 2nd baseman dramatically pretending to have a broken leg just because he was slightly bumped by a runner going by? Or an outfielder writhing in agony like his back is broken just because he dropped a ball? Haha. Of course not. They would be laughed off the field but in Soccer, play acting is a required "skill." What kind of a sport is that? I always feel a little embarrassed for them when I see them hamming it up for the cameras. "Oh Mother! My leg is broken. It's worst injury ever." Then, after the referee gives him the foul, he stands back up (like a man) and runs off again. It's brilliant acting but do they ever feel ashamed? E. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 14:16:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr23.150827edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <01ba01c1eafb$691d3fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > >I didn't make any decisions about the Commodore 64. My kids, and maybe their > >mom, did. I didn't have any of them around here, except when they'd brought > >theirs, which they only did once or twice. Commodore picked the market they > >played in with their packaging and features. > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > PC's of the same time period. > There are a few distinctions that have to be made here. It's probably true, though certainly not the case here in my house, that games/entertainment are a major purpose/function of the PC. The folks who scorn gaming on PC's are overlooking the benefits due to volume that they derive from the resulting sales to non-computing-users of PC's. The AMIGA was, indeed, in some of its forms, and with considerable extension of its native equipment, a very capable graphics tool, particularly for low-end and educational broadcast material editing/development. Most AMIGAs that I've seen, however, were not terribly well equipped, hence, were not particularly capable. They didn't use inexpensive conventional (yes, that means PC-compatible) peripherals, either, notably printers. A local guy here made a small fortune with an adapter that allowed the use of inexpensive (EPSON) printers with the AMIGA and some other systems. Dick From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 14:21:49 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231653.MAA12073@conman.org> Message-ID: <01c801c1eafc$1e1f23e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > > > I consider them insane, but hey, they're still working and I'm not. So > > > there you have it (I've quit a job because I didn't agree with the coding > > > standards but that was several years ago. My current unemployment is due to > > > working for a completely insane boss who's goal in life seems to be to die > > > at work (``I had pnemonia for six weeks and did *I* take time off from > > > work?'' And he was back to work two days after having some heart work done) > > > and I took a few weeks off when I had bronchitus). > > > > There's a lesson there, isn't there? > > Really? Please, do tell me what that lesson is. > I was referring to the fact the guys who held their noses and plowed ahead, using what the boss wanted (he's the guy who signs the checks, after all.) still have their jobs while you, though you're "clearly" superior in your judgment, are not. Not everybody objects to "dying with your boots on," by the way. Dick From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 23 14:25:39 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <01a601c1eafa$182cd740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 02 01:07:20 pm Message-ID: <200204231925.PAA04350@wordstock.com> And thusly Richard Erlacher spake: > > > > > But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important > > to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. > > > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? > No... But could a Commodore 64 read a PC disk? No - until the Commodore 128 came out with 1571 drive. Then the PC could read (PC formatted) disks made on the 1571. Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 23 14:26:58 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 23, 02 02:08:16 pm Message-ID: <200204231926.PAA04812@wordstock.com> And thusly Christopher Smith spake: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > PC's of the same time period. > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > The Amiga was doing "desktop publishing" *before* the term was coined! Bryan From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 23 14:13:22 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <02Apr23.150827edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020423141118.0458fe10@pc> At 02:43 PM 4/23/2002 -0400, Jeff Hellige wrote: >I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the PC's of the same time period. Markets change. Today's gamers simply didn't own PCs ten years ago. They couldn't afford them. There were gamers back then, but they were not mom-and-pop. They were business people who primarily used computers for business, and sometimes used them for games. The demand for high-speed game graphics made mincemeat of the old-guard computer graphics market, too. - John From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 14:31:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <001301c1eafd$72b255c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:08 PM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > PC's of the same time period. > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > Chris > Survive ... that's something it didn't do better. For a while it looked like it might, actually. I saw Amiga boxes with external extensions to enable them to do video titling and other production enhancements for low-end video production. Realtors used it, educational institutions, even publich schools, used it. Unfortunately, it had some weakness that allowed the IBM and Apple mainstreamers to overshadow it. The fact it didn't survive doesn't mean it was in some way defective. The PC's simply cost less for doing the things the Amiga did better than the average computer. Dick From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue Apr 23 14:28:27 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: For some time now, the gaming console market has been where the real technological advances in consumer/PC computers have been made. Most PC users in the business world could get along just fine with a '386 if the OS and software weren't so bloated now. Bob (who is still trying in vain to get MS WinWord to behave and who uses a WordStar clone on the HP palmtop he carries) -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:44 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the PC's of the same time period. Jeff From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 14:40:12 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204231926.PAA04812@wordstock.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 23, 02 02:08:16 pm Message-ID: <3CC5D4BC.28131.272D665@localhost> > > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > > PC's of the same time period. > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > The Amiga was doing "desktop publishing" *before* the term was coined! As much as I love the old wars ... here I have to object. The first time I was confronted to Desktop Publishing was in 1980. And even if we restrict it to PCs, things like the Ventura Publisher (a fine long time carrier of the GEM banner) predates the AMIGA by years. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 23 14:38:41 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020423143758.04622db0@pc> At 02:08 PM 4/23/2002 -0500, Christopher Smith wrote: >I've always thought it was stigma that was >> unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the >> PC's of the same time period. > >Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... Keep software and hardware developers alive and in business? Whoops, sorry, just a little ex-Amiga developer humor there. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 23 14:56:02 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC5D4BC.28131.272D665@localhost> References: <200204231926.PAA04812@wordstock.com> <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020423145513.0458fe10@pc> At 09:40 PM 4/23/2002 +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >As much as I love the old wars ... here I have to object. >The first time I was confronted to Desktop Publishing was >in 1980. And even if we restrict it to PCs, things like >the Ventura Publisher (a fine long time carrier of the >GEM banner) predates the AMIGA by years. I think the Amiga DTP products from Gold Disk could legitimately claim to be the first color-capable DTP programs, though. - John From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 14:54:58 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784492@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] > >Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > Keep software and hardware developers alive and in business? Ok, so you have a point there. I was thinking in terms of actual computing work. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Apr 23 15:02:44 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC5BDE4.5090103@dragonsweb.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well taken. It > does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it realy don't compare. > That's probably the primary reason for Windows' success. > That wasn't really Windows, though, that was the Borg assimilating its hangers-on. The source of countless lawsuits. One of many reasons there's been a tech slump. > The fact that *NIX has focused on other things is why it's not popular with > folks engaged in other pursuits. > > However, because of Windows' amazing popularity (despite its sometimes glaring > weaknesses) other application types are finding their way into the Windows > environment. Because of the ghastly results produced under UNIX for the EDA > community, not to mention the 2-orders-of magnitude-higher prices, this is > welcomed by those of us who rely on EDA tools to make our living. The tools > we had under UNIX used to break down just as often as under Windows, but they > cost WAY more, and one couldn't blame the OS. All proprietary EDA tools cost way too much. OSS tools have difficulty here because of artificial IP barriers, not any inherent deficiency in the OS'es. Another reason there's been a tech slump. The OS itself has little direct bearing here, which I don't think is actually inconsistent with what you're saying. I won't contest your comparison of traditional Unix pricing vs. MS, just say that it's irrelevant if you're considering OSS tools. If you look at total cost over time, though, MS is not quite the bargain it might seem at first glance. > > All the *NIX sophistry is what has cause the decline of *NIX popularity in > general, and the MS-hating doesn't do a thing to help the *NIX community. > > All the MS-haters' rants do is shore up the belief that it's just sour grapes. > If one could take one of today's high school grad's and plunk him/her down in > front of a *NIX box and be able to get a little useful work from him/her THAT > SAME DAY, which one certainly can do with Windows, then *NIX would be much > more widely used. > I know more people who won't read a book than will, if it comes to that. It's always been possible to set up *nix apps for non-technical users who have no clue about a command-line shell. And there've been powerful, networked GUI's for *nix for a long, long time. If you've ever been around me after struggling to install a freaking driver in Windows for half a day (any version after 3.1 or so, or WfW) and have it stay put and play nice with everybody else, you've heard more than a rant. Agreed it's counterproductive, though. It's the same thing, in fact. I don't hate MS. It's just irrelevant to me anymore. People ask me to install Linux now, in fact. It's getting quite good as a desktop OS. Office apps and all. > Dick > From sieler at allegro.com Tue Apr 23 15:07:46 2002 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: FA: Interesting AIM-65 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020422222938.0080f7f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CC55CA2.10572.570E7ED@localhost> Re: > See That's the sellers second one. The first one went for $222.Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From David.Woyciesjes at Yale.edu Tue Apr 23 15:10:13 2002 From: David.Woyciesjes at Yale.edu (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: <006501c1eafb$0fcbf440$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Message-ID: <1EF7F15B-56F6-11D6-AE53-0050E405035C@Yale.edu> On Tuesday, April 23, 2002, at 03:14 PM, Erik S. Klein wrote: > Baseball is NOT a sport. > > .,,,,,. > > Battery throwing is more of a sport and is practiced more by Raiders > fans than Yankees fans. > > Then again, if baseball is a sport, so must be dumpster diving and that > makes many of US athletes, right? :) > > Erik If so, then I was trying out for the heavyweight class, after getting a 300lb (?) IBM AS400 (beige) drive cabinet down from a 2nd floor apartment, into my truck, then into the basement computer room... With only 2 other guys helping it down the tight stairwell... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.3 - Running since 01/22/2002 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 23 13:49:10 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:02 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in In-Reply-To: <3CC4CC9D.B130A9CD@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 22, 2 08:53:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020423/f3500b38/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 15:18:55 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC5BDE4.5090103@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3CC5DDCF.15853.296465B@localhost> > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Your comment that one should use Windows for office work is well taken. It > > does that quite well, and other OS' feeble attempts at it realy don't compare. > > That's probably the primary reason for Windows' success. > That wasn't really Windows, though, that was the Borg assimilating its > hangers-on. The source of countless lawsuits. One of many reasons > there's been a tech slump. You know, I just had a problem to describe to a friend why MS isn't so bad but still not a real coice if you want to do professional business. Her tech guy was realy in favour for MS (he's an MS-whatever-certified) and told her that MS put a lot effort up to make it at least as good as all the other OSes and of couse surpassed Unix... Now, a real neat example did come to my mind: Isn't MS like one of these 500 parts for 49.95 tool boxes at K/Wall-Mart ? You realy get the oddest bits you ever seen and a good selection of tools - tools where each single one costs you 20 bucks if you buy them at a tool store. Now, would a serious craftsman ever buy and use this 49.95 tool box ? No. He'll rather spend ten times the money on a tenth of the tools to buy exactly the quality he needs for his job. Now windows _is_ exactly the 49.95 tool box - as long as you don't know where you want to go today, it's probably a good investment. But if you have serious business to do, you don't need all the fancy stuff, just the two or three tools you realy need. I don't considere Windows a bad product. Just the other way. But as jack of all trades your're nowhere realy good (List members exempted of course :). Gruss H. BTW: I own a real big version of the 49.95 tool box ... and a few realy expensive tools for the most common jobs. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 23 15:19:25 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <000701c1eb04$29da3f50$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > > PC's of the same time period. > > > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > The Amiga was doing "desktop publishing" *before* the term > was coined! In what year do you place this revisionist history? People were casually using the term "Desktop Publishing" in 1985, the year the Commodore Amiga A1000 was launched... Regards, -dq From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 15:22:06 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: <1EF7F15B-56F6-11D6-AE53-0050E405035C@Yale.edu> References: <006501c1eafb$0fcbf440$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Message-ID: <3CC5DE8E.3960.29932D5@localhost> > > Baseball is NOT a sport. > > .,,,,,. > > Battery throwing is more of a sport and is practiced more by Raiders > > fans than Yankees fans. > > Then again, if baseball is a sport, so must be dumpster diving and that > > makes many of US athletes, right? :) > If so, then I was trying out for the heavyweight class, after getting > a 300lb (?) IBM AS400 (beige) drive cabinet down from a 2nd floor > apartment, into my truck, then into the basement computer room... With > only 2 other guys helping it down the tight stairwell... Well, I'd say you should register for the VCFe, where the super heavy weight champions meet - at VCFe 1.0 we shoveled a Vax 11/750 and some perhipheral boxes from the exhibition ground back into a basement ... the stairway was barely as wide as the machine. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 23 15:23:38 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <000f01c1eb04$c0e76030$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > For some time now, the gaming console market has been where the real > technological advances in consumer/PC computers have been made. Most PC > users in the business world could get along just fine with a '386 if the OS > and software weren't so bloated now. > > Bob (who is still trying in vain to get MS WinWord to behave and who uses a > WordStar clone on the HP palmtop he carries) The secret to making this work is pretty simple... you just need to drop back to Word for Windows 2.0... it's fast, stable, and even has VBA (albeit they called it WordBASIC back then). -dq From David.Woyciesjes at Yale.edu Tue Apr 23 15:43:36 2002 From: David.Woyciesjes at Yale.edu (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: <3CC5DE8E.3960.29932D5@localhost> Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 23, 2002, at 04:22 PM, Hans Franke wrote: >>> Then again, if baseball is a sport, so must be dumpster diving and that >>> makes many of US athletes, right? :) > >> If so, then I was trying out for the heavyweight class, after getting >> a 300lb (?) IBM AS400 (beige) drive cabinet down from a 2nd floor >> apartment, into my truck, then into the basement computer room... With >> only 2 other guys helping it down the tight stairwell... > > Well, I'd say you should register for the VCFe, where the super heavy > weight champions meet - at VCFe 1.0 we shoveled a Vax 11/750 and some > perhipheral boxes from the exhibition ground back into a basement ... > the stairway was barely as wide as the machine. > > > -- Ooof! That must've been a sight! Nothing broken, right? Walls in curved stairwells don't count for too much. Especially if it's not your house. :) -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.3 - Running since 01/22/2002 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 23 15:51:17 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1eb04$c0e76030$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at "Apr 23, 2002 04:23:38 pm" Message-ID: <200204232051.g3NKpHFT014609@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:23:38 -0400 > > For some time now, the gaming console market has been where the real > > technological advances in consumer/PC computers have been made. Most PC > > users in the business world could get along just fine with a '386 if the OS > > and software weren't so bloated now. > > > > Bob (who is still trying in vain to get MS WinWord to behave and who uses a > > WordStar clone on the HP palmtop he carries) > > The secret to making this work is pretty simple... you just need to > drop back to Word for Windows 2.0... it's fast, stable, and even has > VBA (albeit they called it WordBASIC back then). > > -dq Well, there's always WordStar for Windows or Lotus SmartSuite or WordPerfect Office. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 23 15:57:39 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: References: <3CC5DE8E.3960.29932D5@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC5E6E3.12860.2B9BE50@localhost> > >>> Then again, if baseball is a sport, so must be dumpster diving and that > >>> makes many of US athletes, right? :) > >> If so, then I was trying out for the heavyweight class, after getting > >> a 300lb (?) IBM AS400 (beige) drive cabinet down from a 2nd floor > >> apartment, into my truck, then into the basement computer room... With > >> only 2 other guys helping it down the tight stairwell... > > Well, I'd say you should register for the VCFe, where the super heavy > > weight champions meet - at VCFe 1.0 we shoveled a Vax 11/750 and some > > perhipheral boxes from the exhibition ground back into a basement ... > > the stairway was barely as wide as the machine. > Ooof! That must've been a sight! Nothing broken, right? Walls in > curved stairwells don't count for too much. Especially if it's not your > house. :) Well, we tried to squash Sallam, but somehow he's still functional :) Gruss H. BTW: VCFe 3.0 is near - if noone has any plans by now .... -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 23 15:58:29 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <3CC5DDCF.15853.296465B@localhost> Message-ID: <00c301c1eb09$9f9bb7a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> (I don't usually respond in this way but since there has been so little on the list to reply to positively lately...) +AD4- Now, a real neat example did come to my mind: Isn't MS like +AD4- one of these 500 parts for 49.95 tool boxes at K/Wall-Mart ? etc+-+-. Well stated, Hans+ACE- John A. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 23 15:55:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive specs? In-Reply-To: <3CC5A3C1.CB9F9F30@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20020423094131.0082a290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020423165500.0084c9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dave, That's handy! It not only has 3 1/2" drives but also 5 1/4 and 8" ones. Thanks for the URL. joe At 11:11 AM 4/23/02 -0700, you wrote: >Go to http://marina.mfarris.com/floppy/allfloppydrives.html. > >Click on a manufacturer and look for 720KB drives in the list. > >Dave > >Joe wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a handy list of drive specs for the various 3.5" floppy drives that they can post? I need to find a couple of old 720k drives but I don't know what part numbers to look for. >> >> Joe > >-- >David C. Jenner >djenner@earthlink.net > From rhb57 at vol.com Tue Apr 23 16:04:23 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204231925.PAA04350@wordstock.com> Message-ID: I have had C6's and 128's - still have a 128D with built in drive (guess it's a 1571) and did not know that at all - guess I ought to get that machine online more often and tinker. => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope => Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 2:26 PM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: Re: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft => Biz'droid Lusers) => => => And thusly Richard Erlacher spake: => > => > > => > > But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important => > > to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. => > > => > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? => > => => No... But could a Commodore 64 read a PC disk? No - until the => Commodore 128 => came out with 1571 drive. Then the PC could read (PC formatted) => disks made on => the 1571. => => Bryan => => From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 23 16:10:44 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: C64 vs. CoCo Rant... In-Reply-To: <003601c1ead6$83c4d3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200204230040.RAA25554@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020423171044.00f4bc08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in >elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't make >that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to >her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were >10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one >considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video toy market to >play in rather than the home computer market, because they couldn't compete >with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with RS' low-end. >That low-end, e.g. COCO wasn't much to compete with. Huh? Not sure if I'm reading you right, but you make it sound as if the CoCo wasn't a very powerful computer - *if* that's the case, let me assure you just how wrong you are. When I got my first 386 (sx-16 Mhz, admittedly) I couldn't believe about the _lack of power_ it had, and relegated it to playing games because I could get more work done, faster, on my CoCo3 with 512K & only a floppy drive with OS-9 than my PC was with a 66Meg RLL drive, 2Megs of RAM, 512K of VGA RAM & HD floppy... running M$ *anything*. For another 4 *years* my CoCo was still my main work machine, until I got a 486DX66 EISA Dell machine on "perma-loan" from my employer of the time to do AutoCAD on. I *don't* want to get into a urinating match over Commie-lovers as to C64 vs. CoCo and all that; and yes I have Atari's too - I've prolly heard it all. They *all* had their strong & weak points, but I think a lot of folks here will agree with me: the CoCo was a damn powerful machine for it's day, and the 6809 CPU has a *lot* of followers (altho the 6309 is something I *still* drool over... ;-)... > All these were capable >if you were determined to make them into what they weren't, but if you wanted >a home computer, you were better off buying something that was alread a >computer. Honestly, I worked on the XT's when they were out and couldn't believe how slow they were... and things hadn't improved that much by the time 386's hit the scene - makes me wish I'd stuck that $1800 I spent on my Intel-based VGA grafix Nintendo in the bank instead... or at least used the difference for a HD for my CoCo and bank the rest. Altho, something tells me you'd be dissatisfied with a Cray... Or did someone urinate on your Wheaties this morning??? Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 23 16:11:03 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:03 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: You have to be one of the biggest idiots I've ever met on the internet. Congratulations. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:41:58 -0500 > From: Raymond Moyers > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > left have butchered 200 million people, > > In first place we have Stalinist USSR that butchered 60 million > of its own people. > In second Place is Mao who murdered 40 Million of his own > people > In third place is the National Socialists (Nazi) under Hitler > with 20 Million dead > > Those are the top 3 of the left > > > I don't agree with your political descriptions. > > Your a Holocaust denier ? > > > Windows I use if I have too. > > Sure, we all end up in the have-to mode all the time . > > > > Flexability is freedom, freedom gives birth to creativity. > > > > > > True or false dont matter ? you really would make a good leftist > > > ( called liberal today, even as the real liberal is the opposite of a > > > leftist, its George Orwells newspeak, todays liberals are not liberals > > > they are leftists, perhaps Marxocrat would be a good label ) > > > > I always got lost in political terms. True or False do matter but I > > don't have all the information to say that is true or false or a ring > > oscillator. > > Thats the leftist brainwashing at work, when people can no longer > identify right or wrong or true or false, they are ready to be fed lies > and be complicit with horrendus evil, as the 200 million murdered, > thats 4 times the 43 Million battle dead of all wars, would testify > if the dead could talk. > > > > What makes you think they wont ? you can have any size you want. > > > I tried (under linux)! > > No font gives me 80 x 25 on a 640x480 window! > > Eh ? thats the standard of a tty and any xterm can be streached > full screen and run huge fonts ... > > the font i use for xterms is 9x15bold > > > > This is wrong, to do so would eliminate creativity. > > > > How can that be? -- if only the scribes can read and write what hope > > does the common farmer have to write something profound. > > If Big Brother handed down a book of news speak we would have your > utopia then ... with all such non-words eliminated. > > The tcpip suite itself has all the rules you need, all else is userspace > and should be and must be freeform or else creativity is stiffled > just as bad as leftism stomps out creativity by removing incentive > and its slavery like condition of existance. > > Freedom isnt chaos, the free world has rules, the ip stack > has rules, but the only valid rules are those that restrict > others from .... be it an individual or the demands of the > mob ( usually led by a tyrant ) ..... impinging on that freedom. > > These quotes are good illustrations of the concepts > > "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our > will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of > others." -- Thomas Jefferson > > "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to > protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficient... > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment > by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." > -- Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis > > "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; > like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never > for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." > -- George Washington, in a speech of January 7, 1790 > > False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real > advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that > would take fire from men because it burns, and water because > one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except > destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are > laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither > inclined nor determined to commit crimes. > -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book > > The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the > right of the people at large or considered as individuals... > It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable > and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive > them of. -- Albert Gallatin, Oct 7 1789 > > Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption > of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the > Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers > of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to > govern well, but they mean to govern. > They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. > -- Daniel Webster > > The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised > over any member of a civilized community, against his will, > is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical > or moral, is not a sufficient warrant > -- John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty", 1859 > > Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its > victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live > under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. > The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity > may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for > our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with > the approval of their consciences. -- C. S. Lewis > > It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are > made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous > that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot > be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are > promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, > who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be > to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can > that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed? > -- James Madison, Federalist Papers 62 > > Don't ever think you know what's right for the other person. > He might start thinking he knows what's right for you. > -- Paul Williams, `Das Energi' > > > To understand open source unix is to see the parallels > it has with the free market populated by a free people > > Its why america remains the powerhouse that it is, > we are more powerfull because we have more freedom > > All goverments that follow the leftist model are known for famine > mass murder and dispair or are following the same path > as the poor fools that went before them. > > Unix is a great system because of the same freedom, it does > not dictate the language you use or the look or feel of the > interface, the X11 primatives push look and feel into > userspace. > > Dont like Gnome or Kde ? Windomaker is my fav, > there are dozens of desktops that look like riscos or macos or > plan9 or .. the choice is all up to the user, Freedom ! > > And the choice of interface dont dictate what apps you run, > the kde and gnome stuff run fine on a windowmaker desktop > Freedom ! > > Choice ! Freedom ! Creativity ! freedom of action, freedom > from dictate. > > > > > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > > > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. > > > > I like 3 buttons better. > > Then i dont see what your complaint was here then .. > > > > > You would make a good leftist, the asurdity seems high enough. > > > > Nah ... More a "Mother Earth News" type guy. > > Much of their stuff seems wrapped around the same socialist > mindset that butchered 200 Million people. > > > > Public space travel to where ? > > Well off the planet is a good start. > > Off the planet to where ? > Every time we have reduced taxes, Kennedy, Reagan, > the boom in the economy created a boom in goverment income. > > But because leftist are not focused on the greatest tax income but > in bloodstained marxist egalitarianism the misery industry and utopian > dreamer feelgood schemes the potental and treasure of our people > has been wasted, we could have been a lot farther along, but > we have blown it on social engineering, small sips of the same > egalitarian poison that has butchered so many after they fell > into the whole leftist program. > > > > > I also dream of the day when a colony on mars is in full tilt of the 100 > > > - 1000 year job of terraforming the place, complete with a planetary > > > mag field generator to fend off them nasty solar rays, but we are > > > still suffreing the leftist egalitarian poison that has raped the planet > > > of man potential. ( and left 200 million of its citizens in mass graves > > > ) > > > > More like Greed and Capitalism and OVER population! > > This is more brainwashing > Capitalism has no holocaust to its discredit > > Even bill gates has never machined gunned people into > a fresh dug ditch. > > If body count is the measure of evil, and you was to make a graph > then the leftist murder bar would reach to the moon before > the free marketers bar could be scaled to an inch. > > In the free market the goverment does not have the authority > or the power to commit such crimes, but the all powerfull > central controling goverment of the left is stained with blood > like nothing else ever seen in the history of man. > > > I never could get Mars terraformed in a 1000 years! Are you better with > > SIM-EARTH than me? BTW if my mars deed has any leagal value in the > > future I refuse to have my land terraformed YOUR way! > > I would say that perhaps sim earth, is a bit faulty, for example > if penetubo errupted on sim earth, ( it let go of more CO/2 > and SO/2 than all of mans activity in his entire history on earth ) > then their model is programmed to show enviromental disaster > > Sim Earth is wrong the same way one volcano shows that the > evirowackos are total bilthering idiots. > > Mars only needs a little warmth and it could kick start > it would warm easilly for the same reason earth is warming > resistant,, No plants on mars !!! > > On earth ... a volcano can belch an amount of CO/2 that makes > all the oil burned on earth at one time insignificant, and the only > thing that happens is faster plant growth and in 2 years several > mankind history of total possible oil burnings worth of CO2 is > gone and the envirowacko climate catastrophe left to be nothing > but their usual hairbrained nonreasoned nattering nabob effuent. > > On mars however, No plants, and lots of CO/2 frozen at the poles > and if you warm it up a bit and gassify the dri ice, the resulting > greenhouse effect can do the rest.. > > the next problem would be controling plant growth so that it didnt > suck out all the CO/2 before you could populate it with lots of us > nasty humans burning oil to feed the plants to keep it out of > slipping back to its ice age, > > On earth our food production has grown along with our CO/2 > supply, im quite convinced if it was not for mans activity > the earth would have gone back into its ice cube period. > > The plants suck up CO/2 like a sponge as the penetubo > emissions show us ... a whole human historys worth of gas > many times over is sucked up like it was nothing, > > The ice caps are already melting on mars btw, the REAL factor > for climate change, the sun is gasifying the mars poles a bit the > past couple years ( the sun is having a double peak sunspot > cycle ) its too bad leftodumbo envirowacko PC religion > that they pass off as science these days is too busy with > their leftist delusion, away from emotion, and wishfull thinking, > out here in the realm of reality and facts, there is some interesting > things happening. > Too bad they are too deep in their dogma to take notice. > > > > When the social enginners are no longer putting the jackboots > > > of goverment on the necks of the acheavers in the name of > > > "social justice" and the envirowackos stand fully discredited > > > by the emissions data from the volcano Penetubo, perhaps then > > > we can get along back to the accent of man. > > > > Darn where is BABLE fish when you need one! > > Read it again, or wait 30 years when you are wiser, then read it again. > > Raymond > > > > > > From dan at ekoan.com Tue Apr 23 16:19:16 2002 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF In-Reply-To: <20020423145424.88197.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020423171555.03783b70@enigma> At 07:54 AM 4/23/02 -0700, you wrote: >--- John Chris Wren wrote: > > Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, > > that might be looking for a home? > >No, but you _can_ build your own. The 1802 is not an impossible chip >to find. Back when I was doing a lot of firmware reverse-engineering, I discovered that the Radio Shack CT-200 transportable cellular telephone (17-1003A) contains an RCA CDP1806ACE. The 1806 is an interesting follow-on to the 1802...see an RCA databook for more details. Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 23 16:34:32 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Xwindows and 3 button mouse In-Reply-To: <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> from Raymond Moyers at "Apr 22, 2002 10:53:59 pm" Message-ID: <200204232134.g3NLYWpd015437@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > But the 3 button mouse is hard to find! > > On a 2 button mouse, you press both buttons to simulate > button 3, it works smoothly and perfectly well. I don't think so anymore. Mine says Microsoft IntelliMouse on the bottom. Most scroll type mice can do this. Press the wheel for the middle button press. Bill From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 23 16:43:35 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <01c801c1eafc$1e1f23e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2002 01:21:49 PM Message-ID: <200204232143.RAA12821@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > There's a lesson there, isn't there? > > > > Really? Please, do tell me what that lesson is. > > I was referring to the fact the guys who held their noses and plowed ahead, > using what the boss wanted (he's the guy who signs the checks, after all.) > still have their jobs while you, though you're "clearly" superior in your > judgment, are not. Not everybody objects to "dying with your boots on," by > the way. So which way do you want it, Richard? And I quote *YOU* by the way: > No, I don't wonder. This situation can't be blamed on the mangers either, > though, because the programmers shouldn't tolerate this. And ... > Usually schedule and workload can be adjusted early in the project, so if it > doesn't suit you, or, if, early in the progress of the work, you discover a > serious obstacle, that can be dealt with rationally. If you just quietly go > away, letting him plan his schedule on your acceptance of his schedule and > task loading, it's on you. Or how about: > Perhaps the programmers should simply refuse to work that way, rather than > abjectly refusing to adhere to formal specifications, established policies, > etc. So what, exactly, is the lesson there? You're giving mixes messages here Richard. -spc (Just don't force me to die with my boots on ... ) From blacklord at telstra.com Tue Apr 23 16:46:01 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> Hi Richard, > were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one > considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video > toy market to > play in rather than the home computer market, because they > couldn't compete > with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with > RS' low-end. So just what is it that classifies the C64 as a "toy" computer ? When it was released, it was far more capable than the existant Apples, Ataris & Radio Shacks (& a damn sight cheaper too). Indeed, out of all the machines then in production, which one still in use now is still capable of (more or less) doing what modern machines can ? cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 23 16:52:05 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204231925.PAA04350@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Apr 23, 2 03:25:39 pm" Message-ID: <200204232152.OAA24760@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important > > > to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. > > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? > No... But could a Commodore 64 read a PC disk? No - until the Commodore 128 > came out with 1571 drive. Then the PC could read (PC formatted) disks made > on the 1571. Suitably programmed, the 1571 can read FAT disks as well, and so can the 1581. And 1581 disks can be read in PCs. But I know Bryan already knew this ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Obscenity is the last refuge of a weak mind. -- Bonnie Fortney ------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 16:49:14 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178448D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC5D6DA.8D5ACDFB@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > They do, don't they? Well, default configured Enlightenment/Gnome and > KDE anyway. That's creativity for you ;) Nope -- RED HAT does not support internet modem connections out of the box.Once installed it might but I never got that far. Windows has some good points just the negative ones overwhelm it. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 23 17:10:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784493@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > Indeed, out of all the machines then in production, which one > still in > use now is still capable of (more or less) doing what modern machines > can ? The VAX. :) (You did say all machines) Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 23 17:14:14 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Cheap tools (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <200204232214.PAA01215@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hans Franke" > > >Now, a real neat example did come to my mind: Isn't MS like >one of these 500 parts for 49.95 tool boxes at K/Wall-Mart ? >You realy get the oddest bits you ever seen and a good selection >of tools - tools where each single one costs you 20 bucks if >you buy them at a tool store. Now, would a serious craftsman >ever buy and use this 49.95 tool box ? No. He'll rather spend >ten times the money on a tenth of the tools to buy exactly the >quality he needs for his job. > Hi Having made the mistake of buying the $49.99 tools in the past, I can tell you that you should have bought the $250.00 set from a good source. The sockets split open, the Philips screwdriver points rounded and damaged the screws and the ratchet busted without even using a cheater. It had a life time guarantee. I found the replacements just as useless. Worse still, the plating from one of the replacement sockets peeled up and slashed my hand. It is better to have tools that don't break or damage your hardware than to have guaranteed junk. Dwight From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 17:21:34 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Russ Blakeman wrote: > The last one I worked with had a 33,600 Hayes external on it and dial-in was > nice, plus part of the OS/400 had a system to dial out to IBM when errors > occured, to report them to IBM's tech support automatically. Of course this > was a brand new unit that was under lease with IBm so the support function > was all built into the cost. The bigger RS/6000 boxen do that too. Popularly known as the "ET Phone Home Feature" Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 17:31:33 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again. In-Reply-To: <003a01c1eae2$22e92de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > What, exactly, do you mean by "partitioning and making a filesystem?" Most OS's won't write data to a raw low-level-formatted drive. You have to define filesystems - partition the drive - and then _make_ the filesystem - "format" in WinSpeak. I have no idea what's required on the Altos. That's why I asked. > Are you sure you've used the correct sector size and number of sectors per > track? The only Altos 580 I've dealt with had a Quantum 540. It's possible > that the firmware won't support a 6-head drive. I do tend to do my homework. It'll be OK with me if the firmware doesn't support a 6-head drive, since the ST225 is a 4-head. I found a couple of references to running that drive on the 580, so I'm pretty sure it's user error. Doc From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 23 17:35:26 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CC5BDE4.5090103@dragonsweb.org> References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020423183526.00f4bc08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that James B. DiGriz may have mentioned these words: >Richard Erlacher wrote: >> All the MS-haters' rants do is shore up the belief that it's just sour grapes. *If* they can't quantify their reasoning. [[ Which, is most of the MS-haters you see/hear about]] Just saying "M$ Sucks. BG is the devil-incarnate. Linux Roolz!" is totally useless. Trying to get my Dell laptop [it's for work] to do something similar to a "Suspend" so I didn't have to wait 6 minutes for the thing to boot Win2K (Because, of course, XP Sucks! ;-) was quite harrowing. The BIOS-based tools... Suck! Suspend to RAM didn't work (knackered up the touchpad most times)... Suspend to Disk didn't work (locked machine completely)... Finally, I enabled the Hibernate feature in Win2K, and it... well... mostly works. Sometimes it works flawlessly, sometimes it munges my Minimize, Maximize & Close buttons to random patterns of color, but otherwise, it's just as stable when it comes out of Hibernate as anything. Is it "buggy?" Sure. Can I at least *live* with the bugs? Yea, I suppose. I can figure out where to put the pointer to make it do what I want. Is it the best option available? Definately. [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... it's fully Linux certified as well...] >> If one could take one of today's high school grad's and plunk him/her down in >> front of a *NIX box and be able to get a little useful work from him/her THAT >> SAME DAY, which one certainly can do with Windows, then *NIX would be much >> more widely used. If one could find more than 1/10 of the high school grads who *actually wanna work*, they'd be much more widely used... >I know more people who won't read a book than will, if it comes to that. > It's always been possible to set up *nix apps for non-technical users >who have no clue about a command-line shell. And there've been powerful, >networked GUI's for *nix for a long, long time. Ask my wife. She found DEC/Compaq Tru64 Unix easier to use than Winders 95.... until I needed office apps on that machine. She still finds Linux easier to use than Winders, and is quite happy about the fact she can "turn it on and use it" without needing to learn about the upkeep of Winders, and knows that she can't fsck it up by doing something foolish; something I couldn't *completely* prevent using WinNT4. And she's tried, lemme tell ya. I came home one day to "I tried deleting this file 'cause I didn't think I need it, and it won't let me." IIRC, it was the /lib directory... >If you've ever been around me after struggling to install a freaking >driver in Windows for half a day (any version after 3.1 or so, or WfW) >and have it stay put and play nice with everybody else, you've heard >more than a rant. And *you're* knowledgeable enough to be a true M$-hater, not just a wannabee... ;-) [[ unlike most of the current fools on /. ]] >Agreed it's counterproductive, though. It's the same thing, in fact. I >don't hate MS. It's just irrelevant to me anymore. People ask me to >install Linux now, in fact. It's getting quite good as a desktop OS. >Office apps and all. Yup. ObClassicCmp: Anyone ever get OS-9/68K running on a Palm yet??? :-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 23 17:55:15 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: <1EF7F15B-56F6-11D6-AE53-0050E405035C@Yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > If so, then I was trying out for the heavyweight class, after getting > a 300lb (?) IBM AS400 (beige) drive cabinet down from a 2nd floor > apartment, into my truck, then into the basement computer room... With > only 2 other guys helping it down the tight stairwell... Heh. I feel your pain. When I picked up the MV-II that Terry posted her last month, he and I had to hump the 42" DEC rack cabinet down a flight of 32" stairs. The rack, with vent panels on, is like 28" wide. I have no idea what the damn thing weighs. (Wait! I do so know. The PDP-11/93 came in an identical cabinet. With 2 ~35lb BA23s installed, it weighed 385lb. I know that for sure because I got charged by the pound....) Anyway, Terry & I hustled that rack, 2 BA23s with the MV & expansion cab, a PDP-11/53 in BA23, and a PDP-8/a with dual 8" floppies down those damn stairs. Fun. Not. I'd like to bring one of the 42" cabinets upstairs to house all these '23s, but the Spousal Equivalent flatly refuses to help. ;) Doc From rhb57 at vol.com Tue Apr 23 17:54:30 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: AS/400s in the Champaign area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeah I have a customer in Lousyville that has one RS/6000 dial out to it's "mommy" RS/6000 and update the "mommy" with the branch info. I don't mess to much with their RS/6000's much other than cabling repairs and hardware upgrades and repairs since they have a support company that takes care of the OS and all the applications. Rats are great money makers too - they chew my wires in the 3 block long warehouse, cause network dropouts, and I make money rewiring a one block long string (used to be 3 blocks until I talked them into connection blocks for damage and other problems, and to make troubshooting easier). => -----Original Message----- => From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org => [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Doc => Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:22 PM => To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org => Subject: RE: AS/400s in the Champaign area => => => On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Russ Blakeman wrote: => => > The last one I worked with had a 33,600 Hayes external on it => and dial-in was => > nice, plus part of the OS/400 had a system to dial out to IBM => when errors => > occured, to report them to IBM's tech support automatically. => Of course this => > was a brand new unit that was under lease with IBm so the => support function => > was all built into the cost. => => The bigger RS/6000 boxen do that too. Popularly known as the "ET => Phone Home Feature" => => => Doc => From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 23 18:24:54 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > You have to be one of the biggest idiots I've ever met on the internet. > Congratulations. > > Peace... Sridhar Thanks! I wanted to respond to the rambling idiotic rant but could not figure out where to start... You summed up my feelings quite succinctly... Peter Wallace > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:41:58 -0500 > > From: Raymond Moyers > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > > left have butchered 200 million people, SNIP-------------------------------------------------------- From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Apr 23 18:39:19 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Questing for a Cosmac ELF References: Message-ID: <3CC5F0A7.1C9A956D@tiac.net> I have an ELF-II, pretty loaded too. Many spares, including a SOS 1805 prototype! I would not part with it easily, but I've been known to make some silly deals for HP 1000 hardware. John Chris Wren wrote: > Anyone have any 1802 based systems, particularly a Cosmac ELF or ELF-II, > that might be looking for a home? > > --John From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 23 18:32:59 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > At last a message that's not part of a flamewar involving Richard > Erlacher.... Maybe we should create a separate list for flamewars. You've got to admit, the OT traffic is interesting at times. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 23 19:01:04 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: Christopher Smith said: > Debian's nice, but it has its share of "political" garbage too, like > the "GNU/Linux" plastered all over the place, or the fact that they > insist on keeping "non-free" software separate. It's not just "garbage". There is a reason for it, that the majority of the Debian community agrees with, or it wouldn't be done. Plain and simple. I'm sure you are already aware of the reasons, but reject them. What you label "garbage" are the very attributes that many Debian members hold dear. If you don't like Debian, you are free to either attempt to improve it, or join the ranks of others who use a different system. It's a personal choice. Debian is different for a reason. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 19:10:31 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <01b001c1eafa$6252c640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Just for the record, I didn't say that our current Chief Executive (aka DUBYA) > is NOT a dimwit. I was referring to George I as "not a dimwit." So,... You admit to calling George I "not a dimwit". From torquil at rockbridge.net Tue Apr 23 19:14:03 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <109701c1eb24$f2b4cdd0$0200a8c0@tm2000> But, Weren't you impressed with his use of the word 'moonified'? It's like he wrote the nonsensical rant with a thesaraus to sound smart. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > > You have to be one of the biggest idiots I've ever met on the internet. > > Congratulations. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Thanks! I wanted to respond to the rambling idiotic rant but could > not figure out where to start... > > You summed up my feelings quite succinctly... > > Peter Wallace > > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:41:58 -0500 > > > From: Raymond Moyers > > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > > > > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > > > left have butchered 200 million people, > > > SNIP-------------------------------------------------------- > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 23 19:16:08 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784491@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > >> I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the >> main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that >> PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was >> unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the >> PC's of the same time period. > >Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... Comparing the early Amiga's with like-timeframe PC's, I'd have to say that I can't think of anything they weren't better at. They could've used higher-resolution screenmodes earlier than they got them though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 23 19:26:37 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <01ba01c1eafb$691d3fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr23.150827edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <01ba01c1eafb$691d3fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >There are a few distinctions that have to be made here. It's probably true, >though certainly not the case here in my house, that games/entertainment are a >major purpose/function of the PC. The folks who scorn gaming on PC's are >overlooking the benefits due to volume that they derive from the resulting >sales to non-computing-users of PC's. The gamers are the single largest driving force behind the more capable video and sound cards. I would imagine that they are also one of the factors that has caused broadband internet connections in the home to grow so fast...afterall, playing Quake or Unreal Tournement over a modem connection doesn't work very well. Attempting to speed up Windows used to be one of the catalysts behind video card innovation, but not at this point. Even resolution, which has only recently reached that used by graphics workstations of 10+ years ago, and color depth are no longer the big selling points....polygon fillrate is. >The AMIGA was, indeed, in some of its forms, and with considerable extension >of its native equipment, a very capable graphics tool, particularly for >low-end and educational broadcast material editing/development. Most AMIGAs >that I've seen, however, were not terribly well equipped, hence, were not >particularly capable. They didn't use inexpensive conventional (yes, that >means PC-compatible) peripherals, either, notably printers. A local guy here >made a small fortune with an adapter that allowed the use of inexpensive >(EPSON) printers with the AMIGA and some other systems. Compared to more recent machines a base Amiga isn't that capable but at the time they were new and still being developed they were much more impressive. They were used for quite a bit of high-end video and animation work as well. Compared to a 1987 PC running MS-DOS on a 386-16, the Amiga 2000 and 500 more than hold thier own. As for the printers, the only machine I'm aware of that might have had a problem with a regular parallel interface printer is the Amiga 1000 with it's slightly 'off' parallel port. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rmoyers at nop.org Tue Apr 23 19:28:36 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics In-Reply-To: <3CC58B18.6EE9203C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200204230742.g3N7g2O10978@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC58B18.6EE9203C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200204240028.g3O0Shg14085@Fubar.nop.org> On Tuesday 23 April 2002 11:26, you wrote: > It just proves that they have problems picking a healthy government > system. That is not to say as a people the don't have their good > and bad points otherwise. I live in Canada so I tend to feel middle > road. There is no middle, there is freedom or slavery, and those that dont know or dont care. > The US governmental system has its good and bad points too. A government > ruled by $$$ is just as bad as other power hungry groups. Ruled by the thirst for power, something that having worthless money ( USSR ) did not avoid. The only real solution for keeping evil in check is to limit the power it might weild over you. > Myself I think religion and power of kings and governments have caused > a lot of wasted death. Yes there is great evil out there. Evil -- the > act of causing senseless pain and suffering. Stupidly -- > causing senseless pain and suffering to your self. Perfection dont exist, there is only the least of the worst, that sucks the least. Again, if murder by goverment was the measure of good and bad, nothing is even in the same galaxy with the crimes of the left, all else pales into insignificance. The left never avoid this evil because changing the policy and idology that caused it to happen requires admitting the wrongness of everything their dogma is based upon. Mass murder isnt part of the sales pitch for socialism, it simply their most infamous and intractible unintended side effect. > I have just read a good quote but I just can't remember it something > like.The power of government is only from the sharing of individual > freedoms for the common cause. Again this is marxist, the will of the majority is the base of power for every tyrant that leads them and manufactures that will with charisma. the tyranny of the mob is the most important thing the individual needs to be protected against Hitler was elected, democracy with the unchecked will of the mob lead by a tyrant. > > Its why america remains the powerhouse that it is, > > we are more powerfull because we have more freedom > > Funny I thought was the USA tries harder to be free! > I like adult computer games ( I don't like porn ) but there is > little freedom to get the games in America from Japan. Funny > I can get a dumb game in breakfast cereal. But all these tennats are marxist, the goverment has no business having this authority, weilded by marxocrats with feel good schemes or moral busy bodies imposing their morality on everyone is one and the same evil. > > All goverments that follow the leftist model are known for famine > > mass murder and dispair or are following the same path > > as the poor fools that went before them. > > With good governments you got a chance to kick out the real stupid > ones before they get to power. Hardly, from the ussr to china to hitler, you target and demonize a scapegoat or your opposition, and with public approval you can then butcher them. Again, without protection of the individual against the desire and demands of the mob, ..... > > Unix is a great system because of the same freedom, it does > > not dictate the language you use or the look or feel of the > > interface, the X11 primatives push look and feel into > > userspace. > > I like open source -- but linux is not the only computer OS. I said Unix not linux. even tho i would group Linux as a unix For me, UNIX95 complaince or the content of USL code in the kernel means nothing to me for this definition. If this original unix http://www.nop.org/misc/unix/1972 ( well the most original code known to exist anyway ) was the definition of what unix is .. well linux and the bsd's certainly include everything there, and do things the same way. well thats enough of a defintion for me what is a unix and what isnt. > > Dont like Gnome or Kde ? Windomaker is my fav, > > there are dozens of desktops that look like riscos or macos or > > plan9 or .. the choice is all up to the user, Freedom ! > > And they all look like 95 to me. I use debian linux ... Red hat has > too much political -- me is right and I am the only way -- > Also debian is the only version you can upgrade with a modem. Im a slackware fan myself, and they can all be upgraded over a modem, slackware is also trivial, with the bsds a bit more work and time ( or so to me it seems ) but still not all that painfull. > > Then i dont see what your complaint was here then .. > It hard to find a 3 button mouse! Hehehe ... ok I surrender on this one. > > Much of their stuff seems wrapped around the same socialist > > mindset that butchered 200 Million people. > > I can't see how you can get a socialist mind set from reading > "mother earth news". In many cases they have a strong sense of > community and barter a lot. It is their choice not to use money. > A little profit is good, too much is greed. And who decides how much is too much ? Even the robber barrons came nowhere close to the pain and suffring at the hands of the egalitarians, nothing comes close and hopefully, Cuba, N Korea, and China and such are the last of the terror states. > > But because leftist are not focused on the greatest tax income but > > in bloodstained marxist egalitarianism the misery industry and utopian > > dreamer feelgood schemes the potental and treasure of our people > > has been wasted, we could have been a lot farther along, but > > we have blown it on social engineering, small sips of the same > > egalitarian poison that has butchered so many after they fell > > into the whole leftist program. > > Let blame specific events and people, not go on witch hunt with > blanket statments. The blanket is right on point, todays leftist program is identical to taking Hitlers old documents and transcribing them onto new letter head. Its the same 1930's egalitarian crap, but with all new scapegoats and new logos. > > This is more brainwashing > > Capitalism has no holocaust to its discredit > > That is the most brainwashing statement ever on the grounds that it > claims to be perfect and true and with out fault. Perfection exists nowwhere, but the lack of perfection does not infer the opposing idologies have equality One system degrades to mass murder for "the good of society" and is responsible for the worst holocausts ever seen on planet earth. The other has a history of freedom and prosperity never before seen on earth. In the free world today, the majority enjoy an existence that was beyond the dreams of kings not so long ago. > > Even bill gates has never machined gunned people into > > a fresh dug ditch. > > But would bill gates sell guns if that made more money for him? Sure ! free people posses the tools to revolt against the goverment as a check against goverment power. That is what our 2nd amendment is all about These are some of my Favs ... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government" -- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" -- George Washington "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, short swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other types of arms. The possession of unnecessary implements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to foment uprisings. -- Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Shogun, August 1588 "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861 "One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms." -- Constitutional scholar Joseph Story, 1840 "The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being..." -- J.G.A. Pocock, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S. "As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks." -- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew. "Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater." -- Peter Venetoklis "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." -- John F. Kennedy The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." -- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story of the John Marshall Court "...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est." [...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.] -- (Lucius Annaeus) Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD), No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. -- Political Disquisitions -1775 & what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787 "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -- Patrick Henry, June 5 1788 Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands? -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788 "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, June 14, 1788 "The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every one who is able may have a gun." -- Patrick Henry, June 14 1788 That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms... -- Samuel Adams, in "Phila. Independent Gazetteer", August 20, 1789 The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the *government*, not to *society*; and as long as they have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the use of arms, and no possible disadvantage. ..... [The disarming of citizens] has a double effect, it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of physical forces totally destroys the moral [force]; and men lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of discerning the cause of their oppression. -- Joel Barlow, "Advice to the Privileged Orders", 1792-93 Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.' -- Mao Tse-tung, 1938 The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. -- Hitler, April 11 1942 The right to buy weapons is the right to be free. -- A.E. Van Vogt, "The Weapon Shops Of Isher", ASF December 1942 Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible. -- Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960 No matter how one approaches the figures, one is forced to the rather startling conclusion that the use of firearms in crime was very much less when there were no controls of any sort and when anyone, convicted criminal or lunatic, could buy any type of firearm without restriction. Half a century of strict controls on pistols has ended, perversely, with a far greater use of this weapon in crime than ever before. -- Colin Greenwood, "Firearms Control", 1972 Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws." -- Edward Abbey, "Abbey's Road", 1979 The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner. -- Report of the Subcommittee On The Constitution of the Committee On The Judiciary, United States Senate, 97th Congress, second session (February, 1982), SuDoc# Y4.J 89/2: Ar 5/5 In recent years it has been suggested that the Second Amendment protects the "collective" right of states to maintain militias, while it does not protect the right of "the people" to keep and bear arms. If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis. -- Stephen P. Halbrook To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that you're putting a money test on getting a gun. It's racism in its worst form. -- Roy Innis, president of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), 1988 Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power. -- Yoshimi Ishikawa "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788 Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. -- Frederick Douglass > > I would say that perhaps sim earth, is a bit faulty, for example > > if penetubo errupted on sim earth, ( it let go of more CO/2 > > and SO/2 than all of mans activity in his entire history on earth ) > > then their model is programmed to show enviromental disaster > The model may be wrong but the point that humanity is affecting > the envornment is not! Depends on what effects you are pointing at One lone volcano certainly showed the Koyoto supporters to be totaly wrong. > > On earth ... a volcano can belch an amount of CO/2 that makes > > all the oil burned on earth at one time insignificant, and the only > > thing that happens is faster plant growth and in 2 years several > > mankind history of total possible oil burnings worth of CO2 is > > gone and the envirowacko climate catastrophe left to be nothing > > but their usual hairbrained nonreasoned nattering nabob effuent. > Got figures??? Sure ! shove the name in google, the data is all over the net. Some of the commentary is quite entertaining " the world's leading scientists said that the ozone depletion was a hoax. He noted if it were true then the eruption of Mount Penetubo [ That has ] spouted more chlorine into the air then humans ever could. "" " One of the ironic conclusions to emerge from the study of global warming is that sulfur dioxide actually cools the earth by blocking sunlight. (This effect was evident globally in the early 1990's when Mount Penetubo erupted in the Philippines, producing lots of SO2, and leading to a couple of cooler than usual years.) " Pre-Eruption Vapor in Magma of the Climactic Mount Pinatubo Eruption: http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Projects/Emissions/Reports/Pinatubo/pinatubo_abs.html "" contained a minimum of approximately 96 Mt H2O, 42 Mt CO2, and 3 Mt Cl, in addition to 17 Mt of SO2. " " Thus, the minimum volatile emissions for the climactic eruption--from preeruption vapor phase and degassing of melt--were 17 Mt SO2, 42 Mt CO2, 3 Mt Cl, and 491 Mt H2O. " > > the next problem would be controling plant growth so that it didnt > > suck out all the CO/2 before you could populate it with lots of us > > nasty humans burning oil to feed the plants to keep it out of > > slipping back to its ice age > > Some people figure that happened about 680,000,000 years ago > and the whole earth froze over. ( the sun was less warm then ) Yes ,, Solar variation seem to be the large factor, basically making all else insignificant ( except for asteroid impacts ) > > On earth our food production has grown along with our CO/2 > > supply, im quite convinced if it was not for mans activity > > the earth would have gone back into its ice cube period. > > That man's major envormental activity has been only the last 1000 > years I don't think that is true. this is seperate from the climate change argument, are you saying that animals and plants are not in symboisis ? There have been studies of plant growth in CO/2 enriched enviroments as well as crop data, and its has been proven that without the population and our activity belching CO/2 we could not get the quanity of food we have with the active ariable land we have. The data suggests that if we was to really cut CO/2 production we would need to bring all of our farmland back online ( including that land now occupied by housing ) to have the same quanity of food. Modern farming deserves equal credit for the high productivity but the data suggest that without the CO/2 supply, well .. > > The ice caps are already melting on mars btw, the REAL factor > > for climate change, the sun is gasifying the mars poles a bit the > > past couple years ( the sun is having a double peak sunspot > > cycle ) > time will tell. Perhaps the left will blame the cap errosion on mars on our SUV,s as well ;=) That the polar caps on mars is melting the same time as ours... Just another data point helping to show the lefto science isnt science, but just another mule for their agenda. Raymond From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 23 19:33:03 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204232051.g3NKpHFT014609@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <200204232051.g3NKpHFT014609@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: >Well, there's always WordStar for Windows or Lotus SmartSuite or >WordPerfect Office. I was always a Wordstar fan, and have a couple of versions here still, but Wordstar for Windows was horrible! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 19:34:46 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <01a601c1eafa$182cd740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Now compare the cost of the 64 to a PC/AT at the time... > > > > More like the original PC - both came out about the same time - 1982. > > The C-64 was $595 (no disk), the original PC was $2880, 64KB of RAM > > and, also, no disk. 5150 with 16K RAM, no video (+$300 for CGA board) $1360? disk controller was another $300, ~$900 for IBM's CGA monitor (but CGA card would connect to composite video, AND had connector for SupRModII RF modulator) > > The PC-AT came out several years later with a > > standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. > > > August of '81, IIRC. I got my technical reference in March of '82. PC (5150) August 11, 1981 > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? No. But LATER Commodore drives COULD do MFM, and therefore write stuff that the PC could read (with additional software) From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 23 19:35:07 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Shiva Fastpath files and documentation Message-ID: Hi, I've posted an archive of files and documentation for the Shiva Fastpath series of Localtalk to Ethernet routers here: http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/fastpath/ Hope it helps someone. I remember corresponding with Ethan about this quite a while back; don't remember if you found this stuff yet. In any case, here it is! -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 23 19:37:18 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <019201c1eaf9$1a17acc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > such as when Bill Gates said, "The 80286 is brain-dead." ? > Did he really say that? I can't imagine what he'd have meant. Perhaps he was > mad at the Intel folks. Yes, he did. Also, Gordon Letwin (author of OS/2 at Microsoft) compared mode switching of the 286 to having to shut off your engine to change gears on the freeway. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 23 19:48:59 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <109701c1eb24$f2b4cdd0$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > But, Weren't you impressed with his use of the word 'moonified'? It's like > he wrote the nonsensical rant with a thesaraus to sound smart. > Yes. moonified threw me for awhile... kinda reminds me of some spell checker that we once used that suggested broccoli as a replacement for Berkeley... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:24 PM > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > > > > > You have to be one of the biggest idiots I've ever met on the internet. > > > Congratulations. > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > Thanks! I wanted to respond to the rambling idiotic rant but could > > not figure out where to start... > > > > You summed up my feelings quite succinctly... > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:41:58 -0500 > > > > From: Raymond Moyers > > > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response > format) > > > > > > > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > > > > > > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > > > > left have butchered 200 million people, > > > > > > SNIP-------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 23 20:03:02 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: 3.5" floppy drive specs? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020423094131.0082a290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Joe wrote: > Does anyone have a handy list of drive specs for the various 3.5" floppy drives that they can post? I need to find a couple of old 720k > drives but I don't know what part numbers to look for. Here is a number of them, Joe. Remember, you can always use a 1.44 as long as you use 720 media. - don ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? CHINON 3.50 1.0MB C354 HALF 720KB ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? EPSON 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 0.3A NONE 10K 400g SMD-380-xxx 25.4 720KB 135 300 160 xxx=COLOR ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? EPSON 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 0.3A NONE 10K 400g SMD-389-xxx HALF 720KB 135 300 160 xxx=COLOR ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? FUJITSU 3.50 1.0MB M2551A 720KB 300 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? MITSUBISHI 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 94ms 0.1A 0.1A 10K 600g MF353B,C HALF 720KB 135 300 160 100ms C=CMOS ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? MITSUMI 3.50 1.0MB 720KB 300 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? PACIFIC RIM 3.50 1.0MB U720 720KB 300 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? SONY 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 94ms 30K MP-F11W 25.4 720KB ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? TEAC 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 94ms 0.3A NONE 20K 400g FD-235F 25.4 720KB 135 300 160 100ms ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? TEAC 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 94ms 0.3A NONE 20K 300g FD-335F 19.0 720KB 135 300 160 100ms ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? TOSHIBA 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 79ms N/A 10K 400g ND-352T,S 25.4 720KB 135 300 160 100ms ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? TOSHIBA 3.50 1.0MB 250Kb 80 79ms N/A 10K 400g ND-354A 25.4 720KB 135 300 160 100ms ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Sorry 'bout the wrap. From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 23 20:26:07 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <000501c1eb2f$07b92910$97efffcc@Shadow> > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > > > But, Weren't you impressed with his use of the word 'moonified'? It's like > > he wrote the nonsensical rant with a thesaraus to sound smart. > > > > Yes. moonified threw me for awhile... > > kinda reminds me of some spell checker that we once > used that suggested broccoli as a replacement for Berkeley... Can you say "obg"? Either Enlzbaq is a ebobg, or he has a obg working for him... -dq From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 20:28:35 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204231926.PAA04812@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <005201c1eb2f$5adb5b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> When was that? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > And thusly Christopher Smith spake: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > > PC's of the same time period. > > > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > The Amiga was doing "desktop publishing" *before* the term was coined! > > Bryan > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 20:45:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: C64 vs. CoCo Rant... References: <200204230040.RAA25554@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3.0.1.32.20020423171044.00f4bc08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <007f01c1eb31$c4b97d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: C64 vs. CoCo Rant... > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >Well, what I know is that my kids had a C64 before they were both in > >elementary school and had outgrown it by the time they were 10. I didn't > make > >that choice, having been divorced from their mother, but it was apparent to > >her that they needed something more capable. They had PC/AT's when they were > >10. Those were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one > >considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video toy > market to > >play in rather than the home computer market, because they couldn't compete > >with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with RS' > low-end. > >That low-end, e.g. COCO wasn't much to compete with. > I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't a CAPABLE setup, as was the Com64/128, etc, but it wasn't terribly effective as shipped. The Commies were fine if equipped with more or less "standard" hardware, and the software to use it, which was NOT what they came with, but which could be added. The COCO also was quite capable after considerable modification. The reason I say this is that I was a long-time CP/M user by the time the C-128 showed up in my kids' weekend bag, and I saw lots of Commodores with stuff lying all over a hollow-core door in more than one basement. Likewise, though this one I've got here now is the first I ever saw, I've heard about what you CAN do with a COCO. RS didn't see it that way, however. The typical user, as with typical MAC and PC users, don't really want to open the box (if you've ever gotten into one of 'em, you'll know why) and cutting the foil on a PCB is enough to make the typical user, who paid what they cost back then, cringe. BTW, I've got a COCO2 in its cardboard original box, which I'll hapily send to anyone willing to pay the postage for $3 + freight. > > Huh? > > Not sure if I'm reading you right, but you make it sound as if the CoCo > wasn't a very powerful computer - *if* that's the case, let me assure you > just how wrong you are. > > When I got my first 386 (sx-16 Mhz, admittedly) I couldn't believe about > the _lack of power_ it had, and relegated it to playing games because I > could get more work done, faster, on my CoCo3 with 512K & only a floppy > drive with OS-9 than my PC was with a 66Meg RLL drive, 2Megs of RAM, 512K > of VGA RAM & HD floppy... running M$ *anything*. For another 4 *years* my > CoCo was still my main work machine, until I got a 486DX66 EISA Dell > machine on "perma-loan" from my employer of the time to do AutoCAD on. > > I *don't* want to get into a urinating match over Commie-lovers as to C64 > vs. CoCo and all that; and yes I have Atari's too - I've prolly heard it > all. They *all* had their strong & weak points, but I think a lot of folks > here will agree with me: the CoCo was a damn powerful machine for it's day, > and the 6809 CPU has a *lot* of followers (altho the 6309 is something I > *still* drool over... ;-)... > > > All these were capable > >if you were determined to make them into what they weren't, but if you wanted > >a home computer, you were better off buying something that was already a > >computer. > > Honestly, I worked on the XT's when they were out and couldn't believe how > slow they were... and things hadn't improved that much by the time 386's > hit the scene - makes me wish I'd stuck that $1800 I spent on my > Intel-based VGA grafix Nintendo in the bank instead... or at least used the > difference for a HD for my CoCo and bank the rest. > I've never had to pay that much for a computer ... at least not lately, as, in the last 20 years, unless directed to do so by a client. I agree, after some time of using a fast (8 MHz) Z80 running CP/M, I really didn't need the long wait through POST and the subsequent sluggishness of the typical PC. That's why I didn't own one until there were '186-based XT's. Since I was used to the presence of a hard disk, I started with a 12 MHz 80186 with a full bank of RAM and a 30 MB hard disk. That was almost tolerable, but still not appreciably faster running DBASE or Wordstar. > > Altho, something tells me you'd be dissatisfied with a Cray... Or did > someone urinate on your Wheaties this morning??? > Nothing quite so serious. I didn't like the CRAY stuff much either. Besides, it didn't run Windows ... > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 20:51:26 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Shiva Fastpath files and documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020424015126.42242.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ryan Underwood wrote: > > Hi, > > I've posted an archive of files and documentation for the Shiva > Fastpath series of Localtalk to Ethernet routers here: > > http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/fastpath/ > > Hope it helps someone. I remember corresponding with Ethan about > this quite a while back; don't remember if you found this stuff yet. No I haven't. Thanks! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 20:52:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:04 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <008701c1eb32$b09a9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I haven't looked at the insides of the COCO2 I've got sitting here, but I don't see any place for a FDD or a HDD. Are there serial ports anywhere that I can use? How much R/W memory does it have? How do you expand it to do something useful? ... see what I mean? You have to do so much to the thing that RS sells you that it takes up a whole tabletop just to get to what's in the PC's box, and if you compare the price of a typical PC Clone available the same year the COCO2 was offered, how do they compare in price, avaialble software base, etc? The worst you have to do with a PC, PDP11, or whatever computer you buy, is plug in what you want to use. With the COCO, you're better off starting from a wirewrap panel and a bucket of parts, since the video on the COCO is not "up to snuff," i.e. 80x24 characters-capable. It uses that ridiculous 6847, IIRC, and even at 32 characters (or was it 40), it's pretty shabby. The other RS stuff wasn't much better with its unconventional 64x16. They foisted that ridiculous format off on the public to save a buck on display ram. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "blacklord" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > Hi Richard, > > > were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one > > considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video > > toy market to > > play in rather than the home computer market, because they > > couldn't compete > > with Apple and Radio Shack, though they attempted to compete with > > RS' low-end. > > > So just what is it that classifies the C64 as a "toy" computer ? When > it was released, it was far more capable than the existant Apples, > Ataris & Radio Shacks (& a damn sight cheaper too). > > Indeed, out of all the machines then in production, which one still in > use now is still capable of (more or less) doing what modern machines > can ? > > cheers, > > Lance > > ---------------- > Powered by telstra.com > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 20:58:59 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again. References: Message-ID: <009701c1eb33$99bacc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Under CP/M, IIRC (it's been a while) all you have to do is low-level format the drive with the sector size the software expects, then write 0xE5 to every byte on it. That's easy if not quick, and leaves you with a useable disk, provided you've got the right sector size. As I said before, I do believe the '580 I once had (2 boxes, of which one was a tape drive ... I gave it to Will Jennings for the taking) had a quantum Q-540 in it. That one had 8 heads, which is why I snagged the thing. The drive didn't work, nowever, nor did a functional CMI-6640. I didn't try a 225 ... Have you tried different sector sizes? How about different numbers of sectors per track? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Altos 580 and CP/M-MP/M Again. > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > What, exactly, do you mean by "partitioning and making a filesystem?" > > Most OS's won't write data to a raw low-level-formatted drive. You > have to define filesystems - partition the drive - and then _make_ the > filesystem - "format" in WinSpeak. I have no idea what's required on > the Altos. That's why I asked. > > > Are you sure you've used the correct sector size and number of sectors per > > track? The only Altos 580 I've dealt with had a Quantum 540. It's possible > > that the firmware won't support a 6-head drive. > > I do tend to do my homework. It'll be OK with me if the firmware > doesn't support a 6-head drive, since the ST225 is a 4-head. I found a > couple of references to running that drive on the 580, so I'm pretty > sure it's user error. > > Doc > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 21:02:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204230622.AAA01154@babbage.pronto> <002801c1eadf$9fbc2a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3.0.1.32.20020423183526.00f4bc08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <009d01c1eb34$120308a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yup ... you're preachin' to the choir ... especially about those HS grads ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Rumor has it that James B. DiGriz may have mentioned these words: > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >> All the MS-haters' rants do is shore up the belief that it's just sour > grapes. > > *If* they can't quantify their reasoning. [[ Which, is most of the > MS-haters you see/hear about]] Just saying "M$ Sucks. BG is the > devil-incarnate. Linux Roolz!" is totally useless. > > Trying to get my Dell laptop [it's for work] to do something similar to a > "Suspend" so I didn't have to wait 6 minutes for the thing to boot Win2K > (Because, of course, XP Sucks! ;-) was quite harrowing. The BIOS-based > tools... Suck! Suspend to RAM didn't work (knackered up the touchpad most > times)... Suspend to Disk didn't work (locked machine completely)... > Finally, I enabled the Hibernate feature in Win2K, and it... well... mostly > works. Sometimes it works flawlessly, sometimes it munges my Minimize, > Maximize & Close buttons to random patterns of color, but otherwise, it's > just as stable when it comes out of Hibernate as anything. Is it "buggy?" > Sure. Can I at least *live* with the bugs? Yea, I suppose. I can figure out > where to put the pointer to make it do what I want. Is it the best option > available? Definately. > > [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... it's fully Linux certified as > well...] > > >> If one could take one of today's high school grad's and plunk him/her > down in > >> front of a *NIX box and be able to get a little useful work from him/her > THAT > >> SAME DAY, which one certainly can do with Windows, then *NIX would be much > >> more widely used. > > If one could find more than 1/10 of the high school grads who *actually > wanna work*, they'd be much more widely used... > > >I know more people who won't read a book than will, if it comes to that. > > It's always been possible to set up *nix apps for non-technical users > >who have no clue about a command-line shell. And there've been powerful, > >networked GUI's for *nix for a long, long time. > > Ask my wife. She found DEC/Compaq Tru64 Unix easier to use than Winders > 95.... until I needed office apps on that machine. She still finds Linux > easier to use than Winders, and is quite happy about the fact she can "turn > it on and use it" without needing to learn about the upkeep of Winders, and > knows that she can't fsck it up by doing something foolish; something I > couldn't *completely* prevent using WinNT4. And she's tried, lemme tell ya. > I came home one day to "I tried deleting this file 'cause I didn't think I > need it, and it won't let me." IIRC, it was the /lib directory... > > >If you've ever been around me after struggling to install a freaking > >driver in Windows for half a day (any version after 3.1 or so, or WfW) > >and have it stay put and play nice with everybody else, you've heard > >more than a rant. > > And *you're* knowledgeable enough to be a true M$-hater, not just a > wannabee... ;-) [[ unlike most of the current fools on /. ]] > > >Agreed it's counterproductive, though. It's the same thing, in fact. I > >don't hate MS. It's just irrelevant to me anymore. People ask me to > >install Linux now, in fact. It's getting quite good as a desktop OS. > >Office apps and all. > > Yup. > > ObClassicCmp: Anyone ever get OS-9/68K running on a Palm yet??? :-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 21:04:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <00af01c1eb34$5cb86660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That post to which you refer was a glaring example of the useless "stream of consciousness" writing style so popular among new HS grads. Unfortunately, they're not taught to read well enough to recognize that nobody could divine what they intended to say from it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > > You have to be one of the biggest idiots I've ever met on the internet. > > Congratulations. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Thanks! I wanted to respond to the rambling idiotic rant but could > not figure out where to start... > > You summed up my feelings quite succinctly... > > Peter Wallace > > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:41:58 -0500 > > > From: Raymond Moyers > > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > > > > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > > > left have butchered 200 million people, > > > SNIP-------------------------------------------------------- > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 21:05:46 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <00c101c1eb34$8c4148c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, it's all relative ... but then, they ARE relatives, aren't they? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 6:10 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Just for the record, I didn't say that our current Chief Executive (aka DUBYA) > > is NOT a dimwit. I was referring to George I as "not a dimwit." > > So,... > You admit to calling George I "not a dimwit". > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 23 21:11:32 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <01a601c1eafa$182cd740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020424021132.44302.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The PC-AT came out several years later with a > > standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. > > > August of '81, IIRC. I got my technical reference in March of '82. AT AT AT 80286 IBM PC AT I don't think that model was available in 1981. I am fairly certain that the only model available in 1981 was the IBM 5150 PC. Not the XT. It came in two basic flavors - 16KB and 64KB. CGA extra. Disk drives extra. Just about everything extra. > > But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important > > to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. > > > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? You missed my point. No it couldn't. I was attempting to suggest why the PC became the preeminent platform at home, sweeping aside the C-64 and other challengers. After 1981, people tended to have a PC at work, so they wanted something at home that could a) run software they took home with them and b) read disks and files they took home, too. If someone was going to spend more than $1,000, they wanted compatibility with the box on their desk at work. Real world example of the transition: in 1984, a company I worked for (Software Productions) debated producing a PC port of our widely successful children's products for the BBC Micro, Apple II and C-64. In 1984 there was not substantial demand for home software for DOS, not compared to the armada of 8-bit machines people had at home. A few years later, there would have been no debate. By the time EGA graphics became ordinary, no serious software company could ignore the massive quantity of PC clones in the home. There were still millions of C-64s in place, but it wasn't the undisputed king any longer. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Apr 23 21:36:32 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <02Apr23.150827edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <200204231528.LAA04188@wordstock.com> <00c001c1eaea$942fec20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr23.150827edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20020424023632.GA20699@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Jeff Hellige, from writings of Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 02:43:44PM -0400: > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that That, right there, says a lot about the intellect of the average PC purchasers; their intellect is right down there in the gutter with the "professional" (how about that for doublespeak?) team sports fans and politicians. If most home users purchased computers for intellectual purposes (e.g., writing, hacking, research, etc.), Micro$oft products would be less popular than Edsels once were, and the Edsel was a much better engineered product than M$-Windoze. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 23 21:32:43 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: New Museum Finds for the Week Message-ID: <026601c1eb38$511aeea0$69010240@default> 1. Tandy Portable wordprocessor WP-2 with the manual. 2. A AlphaSmart Pro wordprocessor like the WP-2 except it links up to PC's, Mac's and IIGS's using cables. 3. Panasonic/REAL game console with about 8 or 9 games for it at $1.99 per game. Works great. 4. Sun type 4 and 5 keyboards (1 each) with mice. 5. always technology AL-1000 high performance parallel port SCSI adapter. 6. One of those tan Apple carryon bags for the early all-in-one Mac's for $2.99. (They go for $30 to $60 on eBay) 7. Lots of other items that are too new to put out on here yet. From torquil at rockbridge.net Tue Apr 23 21:35:56 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <00af01c1eb34$5cb86660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <110401c1eb38$c656fc90$0200a8c0@tm2000> Let's not forget that some of the figures from that were grossly inflated. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > That post to which you refer was a glaring example of the useless "stream of > consciousness" writing style so popular among new HS grads. Unfortunately, > they're not taught to read well enough to recognize that nobody could divine > what they intended to say from it. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:24 PM > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > > > > > > > You have to be one of the biggest idiots I've ever met on the internet. > > > Congratulations. > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > Thanks! I wanted to respond to the rambling idiotic rant but could > > not figure out where to start... > > > > You summed up my feelings quite succinctly... > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:41:58 -0500 > > > > From: Raymond Moyers > > > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > > > > > On Monday 22 April 2002 23:43, you wrote: > > > > > > > > the brainwashed anti reality feelings-based moonified > > > > left have butchered 200 million people, > > > > > > SNIP-------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 23 21:46:20 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules References: <3CC5DDCF.15853.296465B@localhost> <00c301c1eb09$9f9bb7a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001a01c1eb3a$37a56020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Anyone have information on this product series? The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. John A. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 23 21:54:04 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > such as when Bill Gates said, "The 80286 is brain-dead." ? > > > > Did he really say that? I can't imagine what he'd have meant. Perhaps he was > > mad at the Intel folks. > > Yes, he did. > Also, Gordon Letwin (author of OS/2 at Microsoft) compared mode > switching of the 286 to having to shut off your engine to change gears > on the freeway. Interesting you bring up Gordon Letwin...I picked up a copy of his book _Inside OS/2_ last Friday at the annual library book sale. I haven't started to read it yet, so I hope it was worth the $1 it cost me. -Toth From blacklord at telstra.com Tue Apr 23 21:55:04 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: Hi Dick, > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > Chris > > > Survive ... that's something it didn't do better. > Still alive, kickin' & new machines are about to be released :-) cheers, Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 23 22:00:48 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" References: <200204172024.g3HKOk527440@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3CC61FE0.CF9A033F@rain.org> I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows 386. "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > Zenith changed their software packaging a few times over the years. > > > > This is the same packaging as what I have on OS/2 1.0, and MS-DOS > > 3.3+. > > > > Consequently, looking back at the calendar, I think that > > it's far more likely that this is Windows 2.0 or 2.1. > > It's not much help, but the first Z248 that we recieved had MS-DOS 3.x and > Windows 1.0x floppies included with it. > > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! > > On a vaguely interesting Windows 1.x note, the PC version of the game > "Balance of Power" included just enough of Windows 1.x to run the game! It > was the only use I ever had for Windows 1.x :^) > > Zane From blacklord at telstra.com Tue Apr 23 22:12:18 2002 From: blacklord at telstra.com (blacklord) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: Hi Chris, > The VAX. :) (You did say all machines) Unfair! Not the same class! > > Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) Err, graphical web browser ? (Wave on the Cpmmies). cheers. Lance ---------------- Powered by telstra.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 23 22:17:52 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> <008701c1eb32$b09a9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC623E0.49A02E9C@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > With the COCO, you're better off starting from a wirewrap panel and a bucket > of parts, since the video on the COCO is not "up to snuff," i.e. 80x24 > characters-capable. It uses that ridiculous 6847, IIRC, and even at 32 > characters (or was it 40), it's pretty shabby. The other RS stuff wasn't much > better with its unconventional 64x16. They foisted that ridiculous format off > on the public to save a buck on display ram. Nope -- the original coco was 4 or 16 K of ram. The PC had a real display (monochrome). The CGA was a piece of crap! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 23 22:20:17 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules In-Reply-To: <001a01c1eb3a$37a56020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3CC5DDCF.15853.296465B@localhost> <00c301c1eb09$9f9bb7a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020423232017.008214e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> John, This is a hell of a coincidence! I JUST posted the message below to a fellow CC Lister. The book is dated 1971 so it may not cover what you're looking for IF your modules are really 45 years old. Unfortunately the book is really more of a catalog so there's little pin out info except for some of the flip chip modules. "I found a copy of "Digital Logic Handbook 1971" while cleaning around here today. Digital as in Digital Equipement Corp. Need it? It seems to be a data book of modules (M series Logic Modules, W series Special Purpose Logic Boards, A series Analog modules, Lab Series and K Series Control Logic modules, etc." Joe At 10:46 PM 4/23/02 -0400, you wrote: >Anyone have information on this product series? >The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on >topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment >for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) >All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are >supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. > >John A. > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 23:00:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <00e301c1eb44$eef631a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Waidaminnute, waiddaminute ... Just because you couldn't buy an AMIGA clone for cheap doesn't mean you can peg its cost to a BigBlue pricetag. I bought the board separately from the box, used a mouse I already had, and bought the VGA card (pretty pricey) from my ex business partner's retail store. The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but didn't get one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) with 8 MB RAM and a pair of 700 MB ESDI drives for $1080. That was with a 1kx768x16 VGA display board. I hacked it to work with a fixed-frequency (sync-on-green) monitor I had sitting around. It was WONDERFUL. That was in early '89. more below ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 6:34 PM Subject: Re: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Now compare the cost of the 64 to a PC/AT at the time... > > > > > > More like the original PC - both came out about the same time - 1982. > > > The C-64 was $595 (no disk), the original PC was $2880, 64KB of RAM > > > and, also, no disk. > > 5150 with 16K RAM, no video (+$300 for CGA board) $1360? > disk controller was another $300, ~$900 for IBM's CGA monitor (but CGA > card would connect to composite video, AND had connector for SupRModII RF > modulator) > I remember that, in '84, my partner and I were selling compete XT's using gray-market boxes with motherboards and putting our own drives, using TEAC FDD's and Fujitsu hard disks in 'em with a Western Digital controller and selling the entire thing with 256KB of RAM for about $1500. Now, I had connections with a local manufacturer that was using about 2880 of the 64K drams per hour, so it wasn't difficult to get a "price" on them, and a friend was at a local HDD specialty house, so when I couldn't get 'em cheaper directly or from the west coast, I'd get 'em from him. Nevertheless, we were only about $25 under most everybody else. > > > > The PC-AT came out several years later with a > > > standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. > > > > > August of '81, IIRC. I got my technical reference in March of '82. > PC (5150) August 11, 1981 > > > > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? > > No. But LATER Commodore drives COULD do MFM, and therefore write stuff > that the PC could read (with additional software) > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 23 23:11:47 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: New Museum Finds for the Week In-Reply-To: from "John R. Keys Jr." at Apr 23, 2002 09:32:43 PM Message-ID: <200204240411.g3O4Bln22824@shell1.aracnet.com> > 1. Tandy Portable wordprocessor WP-2 with the manual. I bought one of these New on closeout, boy what a waste of money since I've never really used it. I've even got the cassette recorder and cable to hook it up. > 2. A AlphaSmart Pro wordprocessor like the WP-2 except it links up to > PC's, Mac's and IIGS's using cables. Actually the WP-2 should link up with anything with a serial port, if it's got a comm program with the right protocol. I did this once, it was a royal pain as I recall. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 23 23:17:34 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules In-Reply-To: from "Joe" at Apr 23, 2002 11:20:17 PM Message-ID: <200204240417.g3O4HZQ23049@shell1.aracnet.com> Do the modules look like they'd plug into a Q-Bus or Unibus backplane? If so they can't be much older than about 35 years old I believe (if that). DEC itself I was started in '58, IIRC. Joe's book might have some of the info you need, there are a whole slew of Logic Handbooks from the late 60's through the late 70's (towards the end they changed the name). Zane > > John, > > This is a hell of a coincidence! I JUST posted the message below to a >fellow CC Lister. The book is dated 1971 so it may not cover what you're >looking for IF your modules are really 45 years old. Unfortunately the >book is really more of a catalog so there's little pin out info except >for some of the flip chip modules. > > > "I found a copy of "Digital Logic Handbook 1971" while cleaning around >here today. Digital as in Digital Equipement Corp. Need it? It seems to >be a data book of modules (M series Logic Modules, W series Special Purpose >Logic Boards, A series Analog modules, Lab Series and K Series Control Logic >modules, etc." > > Joe > > > At 10:46 PM 4/23/02 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyone have information on this product series? > >The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on > >topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment > >for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) > >All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are > >supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. > > > >John A. > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 23:42:00 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020424021132.44302.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00fc01c1eb4a$5fd6bb60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: Re: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The PC-AT came out several years later with a > > > standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. > > > > > August of '81, IIRC. I got my technical reference in March of '82. > > AT AT AT 80286 IBM PC AT > Yup, that was spring of '84. IIRC. Clones were available from Korea before one could even get an IBM version around here. Were the AMIGAs available then? What did they cost? How were they equipped? > > I don't think that model was available in 1981. I am fairly certain > that the only model available in 1981 was the IBM 5150 PC. Not the XT. > It came in two basic flavors - 16KB and 64KB. CGA extra. Disk drives > extra. Just about everything extra. > Was the AMIGA available in '81? What did it cost? I had no interest in the PC for quite some time after that, having seen the way they performed. Aside from that, there was little software that wasn't available for CP/M, so nobody I knew had enough exposure to the PC in a real-world environment. One of my friends had a '186-based machine in early '83, so, having seen that it worked OK with CP/M 86, and with MS-DOS, I endeavored to snag one, along with a memory expansion that provided a full 256K of RAM. It used those funny "stacker" sockets that often failed, however, so once I convinced myself that I didn't like MS-DOS because of the dearth of software and that I didn't like CP/M-86 well enough to learn its quirks and foibles, I sold it to someone who wanted it worse than I. > > > > But it wasn't the graphics that did it - 80 column text was important > > > to the PC, as was compatbility between home and work. > > > > > Compatibility? Could the PC easily read Commodore 64 diskettes? > > You missed my point. No it couldn't. I was attempting to suggest why > the PC became the preeminent platform at home, sweeping aside the C-64 > and other challengers. After 1981, people tended to have a PC at work, > so they wanted something at home that could a) run software they took > home with them and b) read disks and files they took home, too. If > someone was going to spend more than $1,000, they wanted compatibility > with the box on their desk at work. > I remember quite a few people who had PC's at home but didn't have PC's at work, wishing that they did, rather than the terminal to the PDP-whatever, or IBM mainframe down the hall. That might have been for the same reason you mention, though. It was quite some time before PC's, particularly PC/XT's went down under $1k. PC/AT's were slow getting to the general market, and clones got there first around here. It was easy to understand why someone would buy a $1200 clone rather than paying $5k for the "real McCoy" when the clone often ran faster. > > Real world example of the transition: in 1984, a company I worked for > (Software Productions) debated producing a PC port of our widely successful > children's products for the BBC Micro, Apple II and C-64. In 1984 there > was not substantial demand for home software for DOS, not compared to > the armada of 8-bit machines people had at home. > > A few years later, there would have been no debate. By the time EGA > graphics became ordinary, no serious software company could ignore > the massive quantity of PC clones in the home. There were still millions > of C-64s in place, but it wasn't the undisputed king any longer. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 23:44:23 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <011c01c1eb4a$b4cb1580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Perhaps so, but it didn't survive better. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "blacklord" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Hi Dick, > > > > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > > > Chris > > > > > Survive ... that's something it didn't do better. > > > > Still alive, kickin' & new machines are about to be released :-) > > cheers, > > Lance > > ---------------- > Powered by telstra.com > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 23:46:44 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" References: <200204172024.g3HKOk527440@shell1.aracnet.com> <3CC61FE0.CF9A033F@rain.org> Message-ID: <012601c1eb4b$0d49cee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Windows 2 was what they shipped so you could run Excel, which had grown popular on the MacIntosh, on the PC/AT. That's where much of the prejudice against "smartdrv" came from, since that first release didn't work very well. I don't think there were many other app's for it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:00 PM Subject: Re: "Windows V1.0" > > I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows > 386. > > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > > Zenith changed their software packaging a few times over the years. > > > > > > This is the same packaging as what I have on OS/2 1.0, and MS-DOS > > > 3.3+. > > > > > > Consequently, looking back at the calendar, I think that > > > it's far more likely that this is Windows 2.0 or 2.1. > > > > It's not much help, but the first Z248 that we recieved had MS-DOS 3.x and > > Windows 1.0x floppies included with it. > > > > I've never seen a copy of Windows 2.x, however, oddly enough I recently > > found a shrinkwrapped copy of Windows 1.0 in the trash! > > > > On a vaguely interesting Windows 1.x note, the PC version of the game > > "Balance of Power" included just enough of Windows 1.x to run the game! It > > was the only use I ever had for Windows 1.x :^) > > > > Zane > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Apr 23 23:22:21 2002 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules In-Reply-To: <200204240417.g3O4HZQ23049@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I think he's asking about "laboratory modules" -- the *original* DEC products from 1957 or so. You snapped the lab modules into a power backplane (power supply was one of the "DEC Building Blocks") and connected the logic elements via patch cords. The power pins aren't documented in my 1960 dec logic handbook, and they don't seem to be documented in Bell's "Computer Engineering" either, so I assume you need to find a "DEC Building Blocks" technical bulletin or reverse engineer one of the lab modules -- this might help: http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books/Computer_Engineering/00000128.htm -- Doug On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Do the modules look like they'd plug into a Q-Bus or Unibus backplane? If > so they can't be much older than about 35 years old I believe (if that). > DEC itself I was started in '58, IIRC. Joe's book might have some of the > info you need, there are a whole slew of Logic Handbooks from the late 60's > through the late 70's (towards the end they changed the name). > > Zane > > > > > > John, > > > > This is a hell of a coincidence! I JUST posted the message below to a > >fellow CC Lister. The book is dated 1971 so it may not cover what you're > >looking for IF your modules are really 45 years old. Unfortunately the > >book is really more of a catalog so there's little pin out info except > >for some of the flip chip modules. > > > > > > "I found a copy of "Digital Logic Handbook 1971" while cleaning around > >here today. Digital as in Digital Equipement Corp. Need it? It seems to > >be a data book of modules (M series Logic Modules, W series Special Purpose > >Logic Boards, A series Analog modules, Lab Series and K Series Control Logic > >modules, etc." > > > > Joe > > > > > > At 10:46 PM 4/23/02 -0400, you wrote: > > >Anyone have information on this product series? > > >The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on > > >topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment > > >for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) > > >All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are > > >supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. > > > > > >John A. > > > > > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 23 23:55:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> <008701c1eb32$b09a9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC623E0.49A02E9C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <012e01c1eb4c$4fca89c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Careful now, Ben ... I believe I remember what the 6847 is. It only supported one character display format. While I agree that the CGA is a piece of crap, as is any display with fewer than 768 pixels horizontally and 512 vertically on an NTSC frame, and also including CGA, Herc, and EGA, the 6847 couldn't manage more than its 256x192 pixels, in what ... 4 colors if you include black? The entire system timing was heavily dependent on the 6847 and that peculiar 74LS768 or whatever ( sequential address multiplexer ) without which they couldn't have built the thing in the size they did. I developed hardware and firmware for the 6809 enough to know it was a decent enough CPU, though it paid dearly in performance for the seldom-used enhancements that its instruction set supported. Now, what do you mean by a "real" display? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:17 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > With the COCO, you're better off starting from a wirewrap panel and a bucket > > of parts, since the video on the COCO is not "up to snuff," i.e. 80x24 > > characters-capable. It uses that ridiculous 6847, IIRC, and even at 32 > > characters (or was it 40), it's pretty shabby. The other RS stuff wasn't much > > better with its unconventional 64x16. They foisted that ridiculous format off > > on the public to save a buck on display ram. > > Nope -- the original coco was 4 or 16 K of ram. The PC had a real > display (monochrome). > The CGA was a piece of crap! > > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 24 00:19:34 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Apple //e card Message-ID: I've got an ALS Z-Card for my Apple //e, and was wondering if anyone had CP/M or MP/M for it. Any info on it would be greatly appreciated. I've tried using google, but haven't really found anything of much use. Also, has anyone tried making a 'soft disk' using SRAMs or an EPROM? I've now got a bunch of EPROMs that would be nice to be able to dump a 'disk image' that I could perhaps boot off of onto them. Any ideas from anyone on this? OR... perhaps something I could use a PC to emulate the disk... just throwing some ideas out there. It'd be nice if it emulated the Disk ][ card so that I could use it as a drop in replacement - is there any easily accessible docs for that? -- Pat From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 00:23:35 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> <008701c1eb32$b09a9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC623E0.49A02E9C@jetnet.ab.ca> <012e01c1eb4c$4fca89c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC64157.126B6E6A@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Relater wrote: > Careful now, Ben ... I believe I remember what the 6847 is. It only supported > one character display format. While I agree that the CGA is a piece of crap, > as is any display with fewer than 768 pixels horizontally and 512 vertically > on an NTSC frame, and also including CGA, Herc, and EGA, the 6847 couldn't > manage more than its 256x192 pixels, in what ... 4 colors if you include > black? The entire system timing was heavily dependent on the 6847 and that > peculiar 74LS768 or whatever ( sequential address multiplexer ) without which > they couldn't have built the thing in the size they did. I run 640x480 where does that fit?? I got a few targa boards kicking around here 512 x 512 NTSC - 15 bit color. 640 x 200 would give you minimal 80x24 screen with 8x8 bit characters -- nice for playing games if you have a definable character set. I think the C64 had this. What I ment by real display 1) real keyboard 2) real video 80 x 24 upper and LOWER case too. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 23 23:49:07 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Let's make a deal -- attn Richard Erlacher Message-ID: <20020424053132.SJFJ22485.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Hey Richard, since you are able to get such great bargains, let's hook up and both make some Big Bucks: > From: Richard Erlacher > Of course, I do buy it whenever I see the CD's at the thrift store. Windows > typically costs $2 there. I'll take all you can get (Win 95 and higher) for $10 each. > Office 2K cost $5, last time I saw it. I'll give you $15 each for as many as you can send. > Typically, > a nice ~200 MHz Pentium box with a little (32MB) of RAM and <10GB HDD and a > small (15") monitor, plus the usual keyboard and mouse, costs around $75. $125 plus freight. I could use a couple of dozen of them. Whaddya say? Let's cash in! Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 23 23:55:27 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: <20020424053139.SJGR22485.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Derek Peschel > It has been my mission for some time to bring a BBC Micro back from > England. I would need some way to adapt British plugs to US sockets > and convert the voltage Why not just make a PS to fit? > and I would also need a PAL monitor. PAL to NTSC converters are available for < US$100. Please reply off-list if you need pointers. I fixed a friend up with one and the results were excellent. > Yes, I could bring a montior back from > England along with the computer. I'm not sure if I want to do that. Absolutely not recommended due to the chance of damage en route. Glen 0/0 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 01:07:05 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <00fc01c1eb4a$5fd6bb60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020424060705.21348.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The PC-AT came out several years later with a > > > > standard configuration price (including hard disk) of $5K. > > > > > > > August of '81, IIRC. I got my technical reference in March of '82. > > > > AT AT AT 80286 IBM PC AT > > > Yup, that was spring of '84. IIRC. OK. A little before I remember them, but I'll concede the date. > Clones were available from Korea before > one could even get an IBM version around here. I will debate the term "clone" for a machine that came out before the machine it supposedly is a knock-off of. I will accept that there were Korean '286 boxes before IBM had one. Were they 100% AT- compatible, or did they jump the gun? This is a serious question; I personally have no knowledge of them. > Were the AMIGAs available then? What did they cost? How were they > equipped? And where did Amiga crop up in this? We were discussing the C-64. Why are you dragging the Amiga into the fray? No... the A1000 came out in late 1985, IIRC, for $1,100, 7.something MHz 68000 processor (32-bit registers, 16MB flat address space, unlike the 80286), 256KB RAM, 4096 colors, stereo sound, 3.5" 880KB floppy, 15KHz RGB monitor, serial port, printer port, two mouse/game ports, two-button mouse. Extra 256KB of RAM was approx $100. I got mine in early 1986 for $850, new, without monitor, but with everything else (still have it, too, but with an extra 2.5MB RAM, SCSI, dual ROM socket, Rejuvinator, etc.) That's how it was equipped when it first came out. It is roughly contemporary with the widespread availability (not first release) of the PC-AT. When the Amiga came out, there were lots and lots of PC-XTs and quite a few PC-ATs in the real world. > > I don't think that model was available in 1981. I am fairly certain > > that the only model available in 1981 was the IBM 5150 PC. Not the XT. > > It came in two basic flavors - 16KB and 64KB. CGA extra. Disk drives > > extra. Just about everything extra. > > > Was the AMIGA available in '81? What did it cost? This question shows that you consider all IBM PCs and PC clones to be interchangable and undifferentiated. Was the PC-AT available in 1981? How much did _it_ cost? At least the C-64 was virtually unchanged from 1982 onward (barring a motherboard cost-redesign and a slightly modified sound chip) The "PC" changed every 3 years...PC, XT, AT, 386SX, 386DX, 486, Pentium, etc., etc., etc. Not that this is a bad thing, but it means that you cannot compare machines without clearly specifying the year and what you are models you are comparing. > > I was attempting to suggest why the PC became the preeminent platform > > at home... > I remember quite a few people who had PC's at home but didn't have PC's > at work, wishing that they did, rather than the terminal to the > PDP-whatever, or IBM mainframe down the hall. Most is not all. I knew plenty of those people, too. At the company I worked at from 1984 onward, we all had at least one VT100-class terminal (some DEC, some CIToH) on our desk and not a PC in sight, with two exceptions over the years - one 5150 (still have _it_, too) attached to a 68000-bus analyzer in the engineering department (c. 1983-1984) and one PS/2 Model 30 in the accounting department (c. 1986; not too sure about that) - and, you guessed it, I have _that_ as well (there is, in fact, little from that company that I _didn't_ get when they went bust, including 3 MicroVAXen, 3 Unibus and BI VAXen, numerous PDP-11s, two Straight-8s, etc...) Nevertheless, in company after company, people did have a 5150 or better on their desk at work after 1981, and I assert that that more than any other factor drove them into peoples' homes. Why buy a $500 word processor when you can steal one from work? Why learn two computers when you can get by with one? > That might have been for the same reason > you mention, though. It was quite some time before PC's, particularly > PC/XT's went down under $1k. PC/AT's were slow getting to the general > market, and clones got there first around here. I expect that was typical. > It was easy to understand why someone > would buy a $1200 clone rather than paying $5k for the "real McCoy" when > the clone often ran faster. Absolutely, except for brand-name die hards who _did_ pay the $5K. I met several of them who wanted to run Windows 3.1 on their $5,000 computer and were horrified that they could not. "I just paid thousands of dollars for this..." I heard over and over. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 01:16:08 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules In-Reply-To: <001a01c1eb3a$37a56020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20020424061608.67104.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Allain wrote: > Anyone have information on this product series? > The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on > topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment > for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) > All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are > supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. I do not have docs for anything prior to 1964, but I have a question that might help shed some light. Are the jacks on your modules color coded? Some of the very old DEC stuff I have use color to indicate which voltage goes to which power pin. According to the legend on the DEC PSU (c. 1966), the color scheme _I_ am familiar with looks like this... Red +10VDC fixed Black Ground Blue -15VDC fixed Green -15VDC variable Orange +10VDC variable I don't know if yours resembles this, but it's a place to start. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From red at bears.org Wed Apr 24 01:27:23 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <00e301c1eb44$eef631a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Waidaminnute, waiddaminute ... I think you need to wait a minute, there, speedy. > The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but didn't get > one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) with 8 > MB RAM and a pair of 700 MB ESDI drives for $1080. That was with a 1kx768x16 > VGA display board. I hacked it to work with a fixed-frequency (sync-on-green) > monitor I had sitting around. It was WONDERFUL. That was in early '89. This struck me as being blatantly wrong, since it seemed to me (if I recalled) that in early 1989 your 8 MB of RAM would've run nearly $1k by itself. So I checked the January 1990 issue of "Byte". These are directly from the cheap ads at the back, and representative of prices a year (loosely) after your conjectured purchase date: Imprimis "766 MB" $3126 (p.303) Maxtor 8760 2579 (p.303) Micropolis 1558 1695 (p.311) ST4144R 605 (p.303) 1Mx9, 30-pin SIMM $ 99 (p.312) Base 25 MHz 80386 $ 850 (p.311) I also supposed, being the bargain-conscious person you are, that you might have been speaking of a 25 MHz 80286. I didn't offer a price because nobody was selling them, in 1989, OR in 1990. Harris did eventually manage to push the 80286 to 25 MHz, but I don't believe it happened until at least 1992. I admit some margin of error is to be expected, but these prices---sampled fully eight or nine months after your stated date---do not come close to corroborating your statements. In consideration of this, I must humbly submit that you are totally full of shit, or at the very least have made a grave typographical error. As for the rest of you honking geese, here's an excerpt from a letter printed in the "Chaos Manner Mail" column, from the same issue of "Byte": "Dear Jerry," "Over the years I've read several of your philippics against Unix. Today I have time to write a letter, so I'm going to put my two bits in. "Most Unix debates, when parsed, are recognizable as religious disputes between cult insiders and cult outsiders. The position of the insiders is, 'If you would only believe in Unix, you would be saved from the twin demons of low productivity and ugliness.' The position of the outsiders is, 'I can manage my productivity a damned sight better than you can, and I spit on your aesthetic pretensions---get lost.' Such conversations get really boring fast. [typos my responsibility] Can we please move on? ok r. From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 24 03:56:33 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: <3CC5DE8E.3960.29932D5@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, I'd say you should register for the VCFe, where the super heavy > weight champions meet - at VCFe 1.0 we shoveled a Vax 11/750 and some > perhipheral boxes from the exhibition ground back into a basement ... > the stairway was barely as wide as the machine. If I remember correctly, it was actually John Lawson and I who put our lives at risk to guide that beast down the stairs. Ok, there was some big burly German guy there helping too, but he didn't look like he could be hurt if it fell on him. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 24 03:57:42 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: <3CC5E6E3.12860.2B9BE50@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > BTW: VCFe 3.0 is near - if noone has any plans by now .... I'm going! This will be a good opportunity to punch me if I've ever flamed you before :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Wed Apr 24 04:06:36 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Apple //e card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com wrote: > Also, has anyone tried making a 'soft disk' using SRAMs or an EPROM? > I've now got a bunch of EPROMs that would be nice to be able to dump a > 'disk image' that I could perhaps boot off of onto them. Any ideas from > anyone on this? This got me thinking. Would it be possible, and practical, to make an SRAM or EPROM card that has the RAM/ROM on a removeable daughterboard that goes into a computer like the Apple so you can dump data, then you move the RAM/ROM module from the card in the Apple onto one in the PC, where you can then read the data? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 24 04:13:15 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > > > >> Survive ... that's something it didn't do better. >> >Still alive, kickin' & new machines are about to be released :-) Too bad we've been hearing that since ESCOM and QuickPak. I would've been happy to have seen Phase5's A/Box actually make it out the door. Now with nearly 7 years since the last new design rolled out the door, and nearly as many owners, anything released now would be an Amiga only in name and it'd have to be radically different if it were to have a chance at survival. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From flori_m at gmx.net Wed Apr 24 04:39:37 2002 From: flori_m at gmx.net (Florian Mayer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Futuredata System Message-ID: <8264IC97216QKGTQQORFDTK62LI.3cc67d59@fit072> Hi, I've got an old FutureData 2300 System. It has an 8085 CPU and two 8 Inch floppy drives. What is it? What is it good for? What operating systems run on it? Where can I find Software/Manuals/... Would also trade it with an SMD Controller for my MicroVAX II Greetings from Germany, Flori From flori_m at gmx.net Wed Apr 24 04:42:32 2002 From: flori_m at gmx.net (Florian Mayer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 SCSI controller for MicroVAX Message-ID: <41PMSRPN3YJUVQ4ZA7QPGFIG06QMMG.3cc67e08@fit072> Hi folks, I've got an Emulex UC04 and would like to use it in my MicroVAX II. Where can I find documentation for it? Greetings from Germany, Flori From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 24 06:12:40 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: C64 features (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <3CC6AF48.28027.5C88974@localhost> > > were not great, but at least they were adequate. Frankly, if one > > considers the competition, the Commodore people picked the video > > toy market to play in rather than the home computer market, > > because they couldn't compete with Apple and Radio Shack, > > though they attempted to compete with RS' low-end. > So just what is it that classifies the C64 as a "toy" computer ? When > it was released, it was far more capable than the existant Apples, > Ataris & Radio Shacks (& a damn sight cheaper too). Hold your breath Commo Boy (I just feel 20 years younger :). THe 8 Bit ataries where quite superior compared to the C64. Not only softwarewise, where the C64 was som hardware with a not realy adapted Basic from a total different computer, but also hardwarewise. After all, the Amiga is nothing else than a souped up 8 Bit Atari. AGNUS/DENISE is a staight foreward port of the ANTIC/GTIA architecture. And didn't even the PAULA include the serial port like Ataris POKEY ? Of couse, both where made by the same developers. I don't want to put the C64 down, but as with any Tramiel product it was a lousy thing - not hte best hardware and shiddy software. Still it's amazing what programmes could get out of that hardware. The same is true for the Atari ST. Basicly a real weak (or better simple) product (Did someone say Tramiel ?), but programmes got superior results ... Just remember Xenon and Xenon II from the Bitmap Brothers. A game outpassing all Amiga games at the same time, and done without the (no doubt) superiour AMIGA graphic hardware. > Indeed, out of all the machines then in production, which one still in > use now is still capable of (more or less) doing what modern machines > can ? Apple II ? If we stay with 8 Bit Computers, the A2 is maybe the most modern one. You'll get everything including Nhernet card is just hack for a few dozend owners, 'cause then I'etwork with standard cards. Don't come up with the C64, where a Etll bring the ZX 81 up. THis baby got anything from Hard disks to Network ... As late add ons. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 06:19:21 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Windows 2 (Was: Re: "Windows V1.0) Message-ID: <000701c1eb81$e25d2bf0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Windows 2 was what they shipped so you could run Excel, which had grown > popular on the MacIntosh, on the PC/AT. That's where much of the prejudice > against "smartdrv" came from, since that first release didn't work very well. > I don't think there were many other app's for it. Windows 2.0 came to me bundled with my Microsoft Mouse (the Dove Bar version with the steel rollers). As far as apps, Micrografix Draw was somewhat popular; but you're right, there weren't many... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 06:21:25 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Windows V1.0 Message-ID: <000f01c1eb82$2bd1cc50$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows > 386. The floppies said Windows 286, but the box said Windows 2.0... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Apr 24 06:21:35 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Calculating VUP values In-Reply-To: <1019569039.15595.2.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020423181920.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <200204230354.g3N3s6M10470@Fubar.nop.org> <3CC4E66A.5AEBC035@jetnet.ab.ca> <4.3.2.7.2.20020423181920.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424211957.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 08:37 AM 23/04/2002 -0500, Brian Wheeler wrote: >I might have been the one that posted it. I snagged it from google, so >I don't know how accurate it is. On my pentium 3/1.7GHz I get 4.0 vups >under simh. I spent some time on Google but obviously asked the wrong question. Thanks for the command procedure. On my PWS500a I get 1.6 VUPS. Just a little faster than the 11/780 I used to manage 20 years ago. Perhaps it's more like a 11/785.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 06:26:51 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <001701c1eb82$edfaff90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > such as when Bill Gates said, "The 80286 is brain-dead." ? > > > > > > Did he really say that? I can't imagine what he'd have meant. Perhaps he was > > > mad at the Intel folks. > > > > Yes, he did. > > Also, Gordon Letwin (author of OS/2 at Microsoft) compared mode > > switching of the 286 to having to shut off your engine to change gears > > on the freeway. > > Interesting you bring up Gordon Letwin...I picked up a copy of his book > _Inside OS/2_ last Friday at the annual library book sale. I haven't > started to read it yet, so I hope it was worth the $1 it cost me. OS/2 is/was a nice OS, but it embraced some architectural flaws that persist in Windows and are part of of makes Windows a sucky operating system. Gordon is obviously very proud of his many pronoucements in the book, such as his belief that GPF indicates a program bug and your program must therefore be terminated. GPF is just a fault condition, and can be programmically used to implement OS features. What OS/2 and Windows call dynamic linking isn't dynamic linking at all, for example. The interesting thing is that so much of Letwin's book contradicts a magazine article by IBM's Ed Iaccabucci, where Ed described a dynamic linking mechanism that worked exactly like the one in Multics. So at one point, *early* on, there were divergent path of development for OS/2, that ended up coalescing into one, the wrong one... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Apr 24 06:26:53 2002 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Calculating VUP values In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066625@exc-reo1.yagosys.co m> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020424212228.02a6a918@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 07:29 AM 23/04/2002 -0700, Carlini, Antonio wrote: >It's amazing DEC went to such >bother calculating VUPs by running >a set of real benchmarks on a finely >tuned system and then reporting a >measure based on some weighted >sum when this procedure would have saved >**sooo** much effort: I didn't expect the command procedure to be as good as the real benchmarks but given that the benchmarks are hardly likely to be available for end users I was just interested to see if this command procedure was of any use. At least you can run it on any VMS box. >According to this proc, the machines >I can reach right now report: > >VAXstation 4000-90A: 26.0 bogoVUPs (should be 32+ VUPs) >VAX 4000-700A: 30.8 bogoVUPs (should be ~40 VUPs) >VAX 4000-705A: 34.4 bogoVUPs (should be ~45 VUPs) >Alpha 2100 4/200: 35.2 bogoVUPs >Takara (EV56@500MHz): 87.2 bogoVUPs Well it's in the ball park, though it looks like it's giving only about 75% of the accepted VUP rating. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 24 06:47:22 2002 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Our Sports? [was: Re: Apple-1 Auction conclusion] In-Reply-To: References: <3CC5E6E3.12860.2B9BE50@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020424074722.00f4bc08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > >> BTW: VCFe 3.0 is near - if noone has any plans by now .... > >I'm going! This will be a good opportunity to punch me if I've ever >flamed you before :) Gee, Sellam... Who'd you miss??? :-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Apr 24 07:12:34 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Cheap tools (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204232214.PAA01215@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3CC6BD52.8994.5FF5F8A@localhost> > >Now, a real neat example did come to my mind: Isn't MS like > >one of these 500 parts for 49.95 tool boxes at K/Wall-Mart ? > >You realy get the oddest bits you ever seen and a good selection > >of tools - tools where each single one costs you 20 bucks if > >you buy them at a tool store. Now, would a serious craftsman > >ever buy and use this 49.95 tool box ? No. He'll rather spend > >ten times the money on a tenth of the tools to buy exactly the > >quality he needs for his job. > Having made the mistake of buying the $49.99 tools > in the past, I can tell you that you should have bought the > $250.00 set from a good source. The sockets split open, > the Philips screwdriver points rounded and damaged the screws > and the ratchet busted without even using a cheater. > It had a life time guarantee. I found the replacements just > as useless. Worse still, the plating from one of the replacement > sockets peeled up and slashed my hand. > It is better to have tools that don't break or damage > your hardware than to have guaranteed junk. Well, exactly my idea. Of course I have an unfair advantage, beeing trained in a classic trade ;) For what I realy need I have the kind of tools where a singel screw driver is about 5-8 USD... It realy pays. On the other hand, these sets are a real help for all the unusual stuff you need only once in a life time. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 24 08:09:59 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000701c1eb04$29da3f50$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 23, 02 04:19:25 pm Message-ID: <200204241309.JAA30811@wordstock.com> And thusly Douglas H. Quebbeman spake: > > > > > I find it interesting that the gaming market is one of the > > > > main defining markets for current PC hardware...the very market that > > > > PC users used to scorn. I've always thought it was stigma that was > > > > unfairly applied to the Amiga, even if it was better at it than the > > > > PC's of the same time period. > > > > > > Good point -- name something that the Amiga didn't do better... > > > > > > > The Amiga was doing "desktop publishing" *before* the term > > was coined! > > In what year do you place this revisionist history? People were > casually using the term "Desktop Publishing" in 1985, the year > the Commodore Amiga A1000 was launched... > Ok... So when the Amiga was released, it put desktop publishing on the map.. :) But, I place this date when I had my A500 and did some brochure design work. Bryan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 24 08:39:56 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Linux handheld Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020424093956.00828630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> REVIEW: ZAURUS HANDHELD DOES MORE THAN LOOK SHARP Sharp Electronics Corp.'s Zaurus SL-5500 marries a flexible, Linux-based operating system with a slick, ingenious hardware design to provide a compelling alternative to Microsoft Corp.'s Pocket PC-based handheld devices. To read the eWEEK Labs review, click here: From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 09:08:01 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Let's make a deal -- attn Richard Erlacher References: <20020424053132.SJFJ22485.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <001601c1eb99$72216780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since the release of WinMe WIndows has been a popular find and I've seen guys grabbing all they can find. There's a message there. I've got all the Win9x CD's I personally need, but I'll certainly keep looking. CD's are a pain because they are mixed in with music CD's, which means looking through thousands. (I've got little interest in music composed after 1920.) I just got a P166 box out of here yesterday, having gotten it on Monday. Those won't be hard to find, i.e. I can probably come up with a complete setup about 1-2 times monthly. Pieces are much easier, i.e. the thrift stores are not very good at keeping the things together, so they split up the keyboard, monitor, computer, etc, often sending parts of the same system to different outlets. I normally, if I go out, it's on Friday, Monday, and Tuesday, since the latter two are "senior discount" days at the two chain thrift stores. At one chain seniors get 25% off, and at the other, we get 50%. Friday afternoon is a convenient time to see what's been put out for the weekend. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:49 PM Subject: Let's make a deal -- attn Richard Erlacher > Hey Richard, since you are able to get such great bargains, let's hook up > and both make some Big Bucks: > > > From: Richard Erlacher > > > Of course, I do buy it whenever I see the CD's at the thrift store. > Windows typically costs $2 there. > > I'll take all you can get (Win 95 and higher) for $10 each. > > > Office 2K cost $5, last time I saw it. > > I'll give you $15 each for as many as you can send. > > > Typically, a nice ~200 MHz Pentium box with a little (32MB) of RAM a > > and <10GB HDD and small (15") monitor, plus the usual keyboard > > and mouse, costs around $75. > > $125 plus freight. I could use a couple of dozen of them. > > Whaddya say? Let's cash in! > Be patient and I'll contact you when I have something. There's a local corporate surplus outlet that may be able to produce the "couple of dozen" units for a price within range, though I'd suspect shipping, if you include the monitor, will be objectonalble. What's more, getting them packaged is an additional cost you should consider. The only place I know that has the facilities and materials readily avaiable is Mailboxes, Etc. and they like money. > Dick > > From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 09:07:22 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:05 2005 Subject: Cheap tools (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784494@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] > $250.00 set from a good source. The sockets split open, > the Philips screwdriver points rounded and damaged the screws > and the ratchet busted without even using a cheater. > It had a life time guarantee. I found the replacements just > as useless. Worse still, the plating from one of the replacement > sockets peeled up and slashed my hand. Hans is right, windows is just like that. :) > It is better to have tools that don't break or damage > your hardware than to have guaranteed junk. Yep, not to mention that I prefer to deal with more reputable organizations, like the IRS, or the DMV, or the mafia. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 24 09:12:39 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Cenbtral Florida JunkFest Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020424101239.0084dba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi All, Eric is plannng on arriving here at about 5 PM on Thursday the 16th and leaving the next day to go to Jacksonville (he has a dinner date there that night). Therefore I'm planning on having the JunkFest on Friday morning. Glen has already aggreed that we can hold it at his store in west Orlando. I know it would be better if we could hold it on a weekend but it didn't work out. I was also thinking of trying to get everyone together and going out to dinner on Thursday evening. That would give us some time to chew the fat before the junkfest. I'm not planning on anything fancy, just someplace where we can all pile in and sit around and talk. Let me know what you think. Joe >Date: 20 Apr 2002 08:43:56 -0000 >From: Eric Smith >To: Joe Rigdon >Subject: travel plans > >The plan has firmed up a bit. I expect to arrive in Orlando on Thursday >May 16 at 4:51 PM, on American Airlines flight 244 from Los Angeles. > >I'll depart for Jacksonville on Friday the 17th. It looks like I'll >either take a bus which departs Orlando at 3:30 PM, or a train that >departs Orlando at 3:53 PM. > >I'd like to figure out the travel and accomodation details. I hope you >won't think me too rude if I ask whether I might be able to sleep on the >floor at your place. I'll have an Aerobed with me. However, if that's >not convenient for you, don't feel pressured; just let me know of an >inexpensive motel nearby. > >Mapquest says that you're about 22 miles from the airport. Do you know >if there is any shuttle service that will get me to your place (or to the >motel)? > >If it's not too much trouble, could you please measure the outside >dimensions of the IBM 5100? I may be able to borrow a suitable transit >case, but I need to make sure it will fit. > >Best regards, >Eric > From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 09:12:17 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784495@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] > I came home one day to "I tried deleting this file 'cause I > didn't think I > need it, and it won't let me." IIRC, it was the /lib directory... Well, in fairness to her, it's possible that she didn't need one of the files in the /lib directory ;) Especially Linux distributions are bad about just installing garbage that you don't need and will never use. > ObClassicCmp: Anyone ever get OS-9/68K running on a Palm yet??? :-) Wow, I was just thinking that I might be able to get Mach3 for MIPS running on my palmtop... ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 09:23:27 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784496@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Underwood [mailto:nemesis-lists@icequake.net] > It's not just "garbage". There is a reason for it, that the majority ... and the reason is completely political, which makes it garbage in my book. Not that I mean any disrespect to the Debian people; they have probably the best Linux distribution going, and I recommend it to anyone who asks. > of the Debian community agrees with, or it wouldn't be done. > Plain and I hope that's correct. Since I have probably less exposure to "the Debian community" than you, I'll take your word for it. > simple. I'm sure you are already aware of the reasons, but > reject them. I am aware of the reasons, yes, but not the reasoning. That is, I've heard the arguments, and they make no sense to me. On another note, I'll all for giving recognition to the GNU project, but I find Stallman's demanding it in that form to be tasteless. > What you label "garbage" are the very attributes that many > Debian members > hold dear. Probably exactly why I stay away from "the Debian community," so to speak. > If you don't like Debian, you are free to either attempt to > improve it, > or join the ranks of others who use a different system. It's > a personal > choice. Debian is different for a reason. I have just said several times that it's my favorite Linux distribution, possibly not in so many words. What I don't like are politics. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Apr 24 09:25:50 2002 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: WordStar (was RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: By the time WS for Win came out, it was hardly the same company, and certainly not an equivalent program to WS 3.3. The program I use is NewWord, which was written by some of the main WS programmers after they were fired by MicroPro and started their own company to provide a WS for Morrow computers. NW was written in assembly language like the early WS versions. http://www.petrie.u-net.com/wordstar/history/history.htm -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:33 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) >Well, there's always WordStar for Windows or Lotus SmartSuite or >WordPerfect Office. I was always a Wordstar fan, and have a couple of versions here still, but Wordstar for Windows was horrible! Jeff From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 24 09:36:52 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules In-Reply-To: References: <200204240417.g3O4HZQ23049@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020424093652.00b5e7b0@ubanproductions.com> Are these documents pertinent? http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/buildingBlocks_1.tiff http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/buildingBlocks_2.tiff --tom At 12:22 AM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >I think he's asking about "laboratory modules" -- the *original* DEC >products from 1957 or so. You snapped the lab modules into a power >backplane (power supply was one of the "DEC Building Blocks") and >connected the logic elements via patch cords. > >The power pins aren't documented in my 1960 dec logic handbook, and they >don't seem to be documented in Bell's "Computer Engineering" either, so I >assume you need to find a "DEC Building Blocks" technical bulletin or >reverse engineer one of the lab modules -- this might help: > >http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books/Computer_Engineering/00 000128.htm > >-- Doug > >On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Do the modules look like they'd plug into a Q-Bus or Unibus backplane? If >> so they can't be much older than about 35 years old I believe (if that). >> DEC itself I was started in '58, IIRC. Joe's book might have some of the >> info you need, there are a whole slew of Logic Handbooks from the late 60's >> through the late 70's (towards the end they changed the name). >> >> Zane >> >> >> > >> > John, >> > >> > This is a hell of a coincidence! I JUST posted the message below to a >> >fellow CC Lister. The book is dated 1971 so it may not cover what you're >> >looking for IF your modules are really 45 years old. Unfortunately the >> >book is really more of a catalog so there's little pin out info except >> >for some of the flip chip modules. >> > >> > >> > "I found a copy of "Digital Logic Handbook 1971" while cleaning around >> >here today. Digital as in Digital Equipement Corp. Need it? It seems to >> >be a data book of modules (M series Logic Modules, W series Special Purpose >> >Logic Boards, A series Analog modules, Lab Series and K Series Control Logic >> >modules, etc." >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > >> > At 10:46 PM 4/23/02 -0400, you wrote: >> > >Anyone have information on this product series? >> > >The 'dec Lab Modules' are 45 years old so on >> > >topic. What I'm looking for is the pin assignment >> > >for the backplane (only 5 jacks at this stage) >> > >All I know is that -15v,+10v,+10v and -3v are >> > >supposed to go in (I think) but I don't know where. >> > > >> > >John A. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 09:36:15 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Knowing this it probably more rhetorical: > I haven't looked at the insides of the COCO2 I've got sitting > here, but I > don't see any place for a FDD or a HDD. Are there serial Yep, that's a problem. Mine had a Floppy controller that plugged into the cartridge slot. The tape setup wasn't bad either, for the time. > ports anywhere that Yeah, I'm certain there was a serial port, but I can't tell you about it. It's been a while. > I can use? How much R/W memory does it have? How do you R/W memory? It has up to 64k of RAM if that's what you mean. If it were a CoCo 3, it would have up to 512. > expand it to do > something useful? It's not bad with _only_ the computer, and a disk setup. > ... see what I mean? You have to do so much to the thing > that RS sells you > that it takes up a whole tabletop just to get to what's in > the PC's box, and You didn't mention that the PSUs were external on many peripherals too ;) > if you compare the price of a typical PC Clone available the > same year the > COCO2 was offered, how do they compare in price, avaialble > software base, etc? There's lots of software for CoCo, but I don't have numbers. > With the COCO, you're better off starting from a wirewrap > panel and a bucket I think that may be an exaggeration. :) > of parts, since the video on the COCO is not "up to snuff," > i.e. 80x24 > characters-capable. It uses that ridiculous 6847, IIRC, and Actually, there are applications that do 80x24 in some high-res video mode, for word processing and the like. I ran at least one on my CoCo1 with 64k of RAM. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 09:44:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format ) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784498@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: blacklord [mailto:blacklord@telstra.com] > > Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) > Err, graphical web browser ? (Wave on the Cpmmies). Actually, I was joking around. That aside, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Have you seen Tandy's "Deskmate" on the CoCo? It's not GEOS, but it's pretty nice for the time, with half decent graphical file management, etc, and runs over the OS/9 kernel. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 24 10:29:47 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: RT11 & RSX cd images - additional site Message-ID: <015801c1eba4$dec04130$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I noticed that downloads of the ISO images for RT11 & RSX freeware from Tim Shoppa's website are slowwwwwwwww. I'm not sure if he has a really slow internet connection, or if he (or his ISP) is throttling bandwidth (I suspect the latter). To provide for faster downloads to anyone who wants it, I am copying the RT11 & RSX freeware ISO cd images to www.classiccmp.org/PDP11 They should be up there sometime tomorrow morning, don't download them from me before then or you're likely to get a partial image. And you can bet you'll get more than 14kbps from my servers :) Also, if you only want portions of the freeware CD's rather than the entire ISO image, the entire contents are already at that URL in natural (non-ISO) form to download individually. Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 10:21:59 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <002201c1eba3$c7131e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 12:27 AM Subject: Re: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Waidaminnute, waiddaminute ... > > I think you need to wait a minute, there, speedy. > > > The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but didn't get > > one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) with 8 > > MB RAM and a pair of 700 MB ESDI drives for $1080. That was with a 1kx768x16 > > VGA display board. I hacked it to work with a fixed-frequency (sync-on-green) > > monitor I had sitting around. It was WONDERFUL. That was in early '89. > > This struck me as being blatantly wrong, since it seemed to me (if I > recalled) that in early 1989 your 8 MB of RAM would've run nearly $1k by > itself. > A Denver area company called "Orca" (still in business, AFAIK) had prices much lower. The motherboard cam with 4 MB in DIP form, and I had it maxxed out using SIPPs. I know they had the "best" price we could find because I designed a 5-ported 16/64MB buffer memory board for a high-capacity helical scan tape drive (basically a modified VCR) sold by Honeywell Test Instruments division) that used 1MB/4MB SIMMs. We bought the memory in sufficiently small quantity (these drives were not that popular due to their price) 1MB SIPPs cost about $35 at the time, though Arrow wanted $115. The price of a 1 MB SIMM was not much higher than that ~$35 price in the Computer Shopper. Have a look there and you'll see what I mean. > > So I checked the January 1990 issue of "Byte". These are directly from the > cheap ads at the back, and representative of prices a year (loosely) > after your conjectured purchase date: > I think your perception of dates and prices may be skewed somewhat by a number of factors. I'll have a look at the CPU on that '286 board (yes, I still have it.) to get a date code, but I'm comfortable that the 25MHz parts were available in the '87-'88 time frame. Motherboard chipsets capable of operating at that speed were not available until '89, and had to be selected for 25 MHz operation. Further, the coprocessors, though they actually operated at a lower rate, were not available at sufficient speed to accomodate 25 MHz CPU's until '89. I know I bought the '286 system BEFORE I went to work at Honeywell, only because I ultimately bought a '386 motherboard and a bunch of RAM from the folks with whom I'd established that procurement arrangement on behalf of Honeywell. The '386 board +RAM cost less than the '286 board had cost, since I got it at "cost," whatever that meant. > The ads in the back of BYTE, though interesting, were seldom the best-priced ads. They were terribly expensive and nobody offering decent prices could afford them. Further, they were 90-days or more out of date by the time they were printed, so they were utterly useless if you were shopping in real time. Computer Shopper was also plagued by long delay from submission to printing. However, once you had an 800-number, you could easily shop for the best prices, often ranging over a 300% span on memory and disk drives. It's too bad you can't call back in time. > > Imprimis "766 MB" $3126 (p.303) > Maxtor 8760 2579 (p.303) > Micropolis 1558 1695 (p.311) > ST4144R 605 (p.303) > The prices you show for the first two are quite a bit on the high side. A couple of years earlier they'd have been in-range, but not in '89-'90. Maxtor was selling their 1.2 GB drives in high volume by then. IIRC, Miniscribe was plagued by financial woes, culminated by their "bricks" scandal, which restored their liquidity, oddly enough, but ultimately led to their demise. > I was really busy at Honeywell at the time, so I had an associate of my former business partner, who even today is still in the retail business, acquire and integrate this stuff for me. He got the drives (Miniscribe 9760's) from Miniscribe, since he was a former salesman from there. The second two of the drives you list above, BTW, are not 700 MB types. The 1558 is about 300, IIRC, and the ST4144R is the RLL that famous Seagate model that had extra hardware built in just to prevent its use with RLL. The 4144R was, surprise, surprise, 144 MB. The one (its MFM version) I'm thinking of was a ~96MB drive which had the same head/cylinder spec's and looked exactly like the 4144R. I gave the remaining Miniscribe 9760 to Emanuel Stiebler a couple of years ago, IIRC, since my Lark Associates controller had gone tits up, and it was the one that made the large drive useable under DOS by splitting it into several pseudo-physical drives, which meant one had to use two controllers for two drives. The other Lark Assoc. controller went with the other drive. WD controllers, at least the ones I have, can't do that. > > 1Mx9, 30-pin SIMM $ 99 (p.312) > competely out of line for '89-90. I was very sensitive to memory pricing due to what I was doing at the time. I started on the VLDS buffer memory board in September of '89 and finished it in April of '90. The price I found for HONEYWELL, completely unaccustomed to buying components on the "commodity" component market, was about $35 in the limited quantity in which they bought them. That was the "going rate" from "Orca." > > Base 25 MHz 80386 $ 850 (p.311) > I had a Harris 'C286-25. These cost about $385 including the 4 MB RAM, IIT coprocessor, and CPU on a C&T NEAT chipset. I'd previously worked for a company that had some pretty slick software to support the NEAT in order to allow the use of the "adapter space" to load drivers. I'd found that the '286/25 outperformed the '386/25 by about 10% despite the increased data path width. Quite a surprise, but that's why I went with the '286. > > I also supposed, being the bargain-conscious person you are, that you > might have been speaking of a 25 MHz 80286. I didn't offer a price because > nobody was selling them, in 1989, OR in 1990. Harris did eventually manage > to push the 80286 to 25 MHz, but I don't believe it happened until at > least 1992. > While I was at Martin Marietta, we routinely used the 25 MHz CMOS part from Harris in satellite hardware in '87-'88. These were selected parts, but were common and readily available once a supply channel was established. The board I bought was populated with chips labelled "25 MHz," though the CPU was labelled 20 MHz. It worked fine, though I replaced the CPU with a selected 25 MHz part I had gotten as a sample some years earlier. > > I admit some margin of error is to be expected, but these prices---sampled > fully eight or nine months after your stated date---do not come close to > corroborating your statements. In consideration of this, I must humbly > submit that you are totally full of shit, or at the very least have made a > grave typographical error. > > As for the rest of you honking geese, here's an excerpt from a letter > printed in the "Chaos Manner Mail" column, from the same issue of "Byte": > > "Dear Jerry," > > "Over the years I've read several of your philippics against Unix. > Today I have time to write a letter, so I'm going to put my two bits in. > > "Most Unix debates, when parsed, are recognizable as religious disputes > between cult insiders and cult outsiders. The position of the insiders is, > 'If you would only believe in Unix, you would be saved from the twin > demons of low productivity and ugliness.' The position of the outsiders > is, 'I can manage my productivity a damned sight better than you can, and > I spit on your aesthetic pretensions---get lost.' Such conversations get > really boring fast. > > [typos my responsibility] > > Can we please move on? > Clearly it's an old argument. I'm just as tired of it as you, but every time I jump someone for introducing this "Of you wold only..." argument as unrealistic, a hundred "honking geese" jump in to defend their job-security-producing ultra-cryptic command-line-based baby, which, if it were so great, wouldn't need them to defend it. That's the way it is with religious arguments, I guess. I admit that I'm weak and can't let these irrational arguments pass. > > ok > r. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 24 10:13:58 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: 1961 Vintage Computer Memory Book Item # 2018895703 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020424111358.00853a30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 10:41:30 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format Message-ID: <000701c1eba6$812ec8f0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > > Minis excluded, I guess the TRS-80 ;) > > > Err, graphical web browser ? (Wave on the Cpmmies). > > Actually, I was joking around. That aside, I wouldn't be > surprised at all. Have you seen Tandy's "Deskmate" on the > CoCo? It's not GEOS, but it's pretty nice for the time, > with half decent graphical file management, etc, and runs > over the OS/9 kernel. For the truly devoted, I have a copy of PC-LINK for Deskmate. Copyright 1988 by America Online, Inc. -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 24 10:42:11 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Ryan Underwood wrote: > It's not just "garbage". There is a reason for it, that the majority > of the Debian community agrees with, or it wouldn't be done. Plain and > simple. I'm sure you are already aware of the reasons, but reject them. > What you label "garbage" are the very attributes that many Debian members > hold dear. Speaking as a Debian user and part of a very strong Debian userbase in Austin: "Bah!" Richard M. Stallman not only didn't invent open software, he didn't coin the term. He DID provide a very critically imporatant rallying point and a charismatic front for the computing/coding community. Nobody wants to deny or minimize that. Most of us recognize that he has become an egotistical, inflexible loon. The entire world has voted. The name is "Linux", not "GNU/Linux". The entire Unix world recognises RMS's contribution to our daily compfort, yet he spurns the recognition and the honors given him in favor af a semantic point he'll never make. If it sounds like a raw nerve, it is. The UT Linux SIG group just asked RMS to speak this year. Hed he turned us down because of the group's name - SIGLinux as opposed to SIGNULinux, even though the registered name is "SIGLinux: The UT ACM's GNU/Linux Users Group" - I'd have been miffed but not offended. That's his call, and I'm sure he gets more requests than he can handle. Quote from RMS's letter to SIGLinux: However, I have a policy that if a GNU/Linux User Group asks me fo give a speech, I will do so at the first convenient opportunity. So if your group picks a suitable name now, I will come then. End quote. That's extortion. That's rampant egotism, trading on his popularity and his desirability as a guest to enforce his whims. > If you don't like Debian, you are free to either attempt to improve it, > or join the ranks of others who use a different system. It's a personal > choice. Debian is different for a reason. I simply expunge vrms. Doc From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 10:43:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:36 AM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > Knowing this it probably more rhetorical: > > > I haven't looked at the insides of the COCO2 I've got sitting > > here, but I > > don't see any place for a FDD or a HDD. Are there serial > > Yep, that's a problem. Mine had a Floppy controller that plugged > into the cartridge slot. The tape setup wasn't bad either, for the > time. > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface is external. > > > ports anywhere that > > Yeah, I'm certain there was a serial port, but I can't tell you > about it. It's been a while. > > > I can use? How much R/W memory does it have? How do you > > R/W memory? It has up to 64k of RAM if that's what you mean. If > it were a CoCo 3, it would have up to 512. > What I meant, of course, is how much memory is in the box as shipped. > > > expand it to do > > something useful? > > It's not bad with _only_ the computer, and a disk setup. > > > ... see what I mean? You have to do so much to the thing > > that RS sells you > > that it takes up a whole tabletop just to get to what's in > > the PC's box, and > > You didn't mention that the PSUs were external on many peripherals > too ;) > > > if you compare the price of a typical PC Clone available the > > same year the > > COCO2 was offered, how do they compare in price, avaialble > > software base, etc? > > There's lots of software for CoCo, but I don't have numbers. > > > With the COCO, you're better off starting from a wirewrap > > panel and a bucket > > I think that may be an exaggeration. :) > The COCO schematics I once saw were pretty much direct copies of the Motorola application notes for their 6847+"sequential address multiplexer" approach to a "video terminal." It's been at least a decade, probably more like two, since I had any interest in the 6847, but IIRC, the only character display format that the 6847 would support was 16 lines of 32 characters. It was capable of 256x192 graphics in 4 colors, and (maybe) some slightly higher resolution in monochrome. It was, compared to other sorts of video display hardware, a complete toy. There must have been some better way of displaying characters from the COCO, with as many people as seem to like it, but I've no idea how. > > > of parts, since the video on the COCO is not "up to snuff," > > i.e. 80x24 characters-capable. It uses that ridiculous 6847, IIRC, and > > Actually, there are applications that do 80x24 in some high-res > video mode, for word processing and the like. I ran at least one > on my CoCo1 with 64k of RAM. > Did they require some sort of hardware enhancement to do that? Once I get through with what I'm doing today, I'll get out the screwdriver and have a look inside the COCO2. I did peek inside to see whether the WD 1772 was inside, which it wasn't, and that was what I was after when I snagged the thing. > Computers of the '80's had mass storage. Video toys did not. That's why I refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage interfaces as toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. Later on, that was no longer a valid basis for classifying them, since it simply became cheaper to put the mass storage interface inside the box. In the '80's, toy vendors wanted you to buy small, at an inflated price, and then buy small again, also at an inflated price. Computer makers had to compete with one another, while game/toy vendors didn't have to compete with computer makers. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 24 10:53:13 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's Message-ID: <015e01c1eba8$24928620$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Thanks a MILLION to all who have donated parts and/or money so far to get a separate dedicated classiccmp server. Many of the components are in (still missing a few critical things), but I'm still waffeling on whether to put in IDE hardware mirroring (and if so, whether to do it with a motherboard that supports this or an addin ide raid card). Decisions decisions.... if anyone still wants to donate to the cause, my paypal id is jwest@classiccmp.org On a different note - something I have been considering and wonder if people would like it or use it. I would like to put up a problem tracking system for all classic OS's. This would be off the classiccmp.org website, where anyone could put in a problem they have run into with a particular classic OS - be it a suspected bug, compatability issues, etc. An administrative type (volunteers who want to watch the section for a particular OS) can come in and post an answer, resolution, workaround, etc., or mark the problem report as "user error", "known defect", etc. This database easily supports someone searching for a list of problems, issues, etc. For example - "show me any entries for getting a cdrom to work on RT11", or "show me any problems with crashed BBL on HP21xx", or "what are all the known defects in {your favorite operating system here}". All accessible to the public via a simple web interface. You can think of this as a totally free hobbyist support mechanism open to the public. However, keep in mind that it is NOT meant to be used as a "discussion" forum. The very nature of the software used for the system prevents this from happening (ie. it's not meant to replace the classiccmp mailing list in any way). Just another way to find out if the problem you're beating your head against is a known bug. I have been looking at BugTrak, but am starting to lean towards the gnats system with the www.gnats frontend. Any thoughts? Jay West From pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com Wed Apr 24 10:48:37 2002 From: pat at cart-server.purdueriots.com (pat@cart-server.purdueriots.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Calculating VUP values In-Reply-To: <1019569039.15595.2.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On 23 Apr 2002, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Tue, 2002-04-23 at 03:21, Huw Davies wrote: > > I'm sure a few days ago I saw a piece of DCL fly by in a classiccmp mail > > message that was supposed to calculate the VUP rating of a VMS system. > > I might have been the one that posted it. I snagged it from google, so > I don't know how accurate it is. On my pentium 3/1.7GHz I get 4.0 vups > under simh. On my VAXstation 3200, it said 3.0, which is to the 2.7 that Compaq says it should be. -- Pat From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 24 11:02:11 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: anyone with an old national memory databook ? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020424110211.009637b0@ubanproductions.com> I am looking for info on a National Semi 4916944-2 memory IC in a 16-pin 0.3" DIP package. I am assuming that it is some variant of the 4164, but am not sure. --tnx --tom From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 24 11:15:09 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <02Apr24.124010edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > I haven't looked at the insides of the COCO2 I've got sitting >> here, but I >> don't see any place for a FDD or a HDD. Are there serial > >Yep, that's a problem. Mine had a Floppy controller that plugged >into the cartridge slot. The tape setup wasn't bad either, for the >time. Considering the timeframe that it was first produced, 1980/81, the CoCo was ahead of a few of the 8bit machines aimed at the home user. It certainly wasn't much different than most of them. It's controller cartridge/external floppy setup did allow you to use standard 5-1/4" mech's with it. >Yeah, I'm certain there was a serial port, but I can't tell you >about it. It's been a while. If memory serves correctly, the serial port was a software bit-banger. > > if you compare the price of a typical PC Clone available the >> same year the >> COCO2 was offered, how do they compare in price, avaialble >> software base, etc? > >There's lots of software for CoCo, but I don't have numbers. Plenty of software, including things such as audio spectrun analyzer cartridges. Why would you compare the price of a typical PC with that of a CoCo though? They were from totally different schools of thought, aimed at totally different markets with different requirements. The 64k PC of 1981 cost a great deal more than the CoCo and wasn't even as capable in the graphics department. If you're going to make comparisons between different platforms at least do it in a way that is at least relevant. I just don't see the point in comparing a sub-$1000 home computer with a ~$4000 PC aimed at the business market. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 24 11:34:14 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146785F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> We're cleaning here, and got some stuff being tossed. Free, Come pick it up... 12 old modems - Gandalf LDS125 (?) about 12 (?) dozen tape reels. 12" diameter. They're in 4 15" monitor boxes... 2 HP LaserJet IID, with duplex 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex some long comms(?) cables old Epson line printers old DeskJet printers CSU/DSU more to come... I can hold some of the smaller things, but there is limited space in my garage. E-mail me directly... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 24 11:34:32 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Computers of the '80's had mass storage. Video toys did not. That's why I >refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage interfaces as >toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. Later on, >that was no longer a valid basis for classifying them, since it simply became >cheaper to put the mass storage interface inside the box. In the '80's, toy >vendors wanted you to buy small, at an inflated price, and then buy small >again, also at an inflated price. Computer makers had to compete with one >another, while game/toy vendors didn't have to compete with computer makers. Plenty of people couldn't afford what you consider a computer and had their first experience with computers using what you deem as 'toys'. I doubt that early user's of the Atari, Commodore, TRS-80 or Sinclair machines would appreciate that label though. Nor did everyone have either the ability or desire to write major portions of the OS to get into the S-100 bus boxes, even if they could afford them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 24 11:59:51 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Emulex UC04 SCSI controller for MicroVAX Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467863@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Florian Mayer > > Hi folks, > > I've got an Emulex UC04 and would like to use it in my MicroVAX II. Where > can I find documentation for it? > > Greetings from Germany, > > Flori > > Which reminds me. I have an Emulex "UC07/08 distribution panel" sitting on my shelf here. Anybody want it? -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 11:52:50 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb In-Reply-To: <009d01c1eb34$120308a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 23, 2002 08:02:21 pm" Message-ID: <200204241652.g3OGqpMa018649@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > > Rumor has it that James B. DiGriz may have mentioned these words: > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... it's fully Linux certified as > > well...] 6G... I get OS/2, Win3.1, Lotus SmartSuite, PC Dos7, and Linux or FreeBSD and X and OpenOffice in 4gb without disk compression on an IBM 760XL laptop. Linux is all in how you install it. Default's a pig. (Especially Mandrake and Redhat...) Free/OpenBSD are much better at packaging the OS seperate from the apps... and add-ons. Linux is getting to look like Windows2k... overloaded with stuff you never use and without the stuff you need. Bill From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 24 11:55:06 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to one > intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface is > external. Jeez, Dick. I can't believe you dragged me back into this. Where did you find that little tidbit of inductive logic? You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", since they have no internal mass storage. Do I think that was a great design? No. Did _anyone_ _ever_ mistake them for a toy? Get a grip. No matter whether or not you _like_ those DECstations, or a score of other application-oriented computers that had external-storage-only designs, that statement is just ludicrous. Given the price of storage in the timeframe you're discussing, the capacity to share disks and drives between computers without dismantling the machine was a very good idea. An easy way to spot a Microsoft/Intel patsy is his tendency to present his own [generally incredibly narrow] viewpoint as immutable fact. Doc From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 11:51:58 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784499@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > Nobody wants to deny or minimize that. Most of us recognize > that he has > become an egotistical, inflexible loon. Thanks Doc. I'm not sure I could have put that any better. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 11:55:44 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Apr 23, 2002 08:33:03 pm" Message-ID: <200204241655.g3OGtjFl018717@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > >Well, there's always WordStar for Windows or Lotus SmartSuite or > >WordPerfect Office. > > I was always a Wordstar fan, and have a couple of versions > here still, but Wordstar for Windows was horrible! > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Actually, version 1 sucked but I picked up v2 for $10 and found it pretty useable even on 486's. On the k6-2/450 I have it flies. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Apr 24 11:57:15 2002 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: >BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of them sitting around >for people to look at and play with. I personally was not impressed. They >were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside from the OS, I don't >remember any applications that didn't have the same look and feel as a small >mono-MAC costing ~1/10 as much. Finally gored my ox - but it's on-topic! Yee-hah. Nice things created on NeXT systems: * the WWW (or rather the html protocol underlying it) by Tim Berners Lee (sic?). * Mathematica - though probably is not useful to the work you do, it's indispensable to some of mine. * Zilla, the fore-runner of most of the distributed-computing, grid-computing, commodity CPU projects buzzwording around today. Distributed as an example application on NeXT 3.3 and used to crack several outstanding mathematical compute-intensive problems. * Attached sound and graphics files in email. Hmm, maybe this is not good. Basically, a lot of the computing technologies you now rely on first appeared on NeXT systems. They may not have impressed you then, but they should now. You are right about the Flops rating - that was only a bit higher than Macs/PC's and well behind Sparc's, Alphas, etc. But Flops/dollar is not the best metric of a general-purpose computer. If you think it is, buy yourself a used (Sony) PS/2 and we'll all be happier. For many kinds of work, developer time to a working solution is the dominant metric, and NeXT was very near the good end of that scale. >The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they >weren't what the home user wanted. Quite right - the home user wanted applications, rather than the ability to develop applications, and the corporate user wanted Flops - which meant Suns and Alphas. There were not enough developers to float the market for the hardware. But note, the NeXT company did *not* fail - it successfully moved its software to Sun, PA-Risc, and x86 platforms, where it maintained a serious business niche until it eventually was bought out by a higher volume hardware player - Apple. The same software is now the second-best-selling (? am I right in claiming this?) OS on the planet. There's a NeXT on my desk at work right now, running Mathematica and perl tasks, websurfing, backing up my portable .... its utility (to me) exceeds that of any Windows machine I've seen. Count me in with James Rice - if you see a working NeXT of any sort under $20 or so, and *particularly* if you see a cube hooked up to a color display, I'd take it most kindly if you'd notify me, or at least someone on the list. It ain't junk to everyone. Best contact for me is at the above email address. - Mark From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 24 12:07:18 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <3CC61FE0.CF9A033F@rain.org> from Marvin Johnston at "Apr 23, 2002 08:00:48 pm" Message-ID: <200204241707.KAA04381@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows > 386. Windows 2.0 originally shipped as Windows 2.0, then split into Windows 286 (which was just Windows 2.0 and would run on an 8080) and Windows 386 (which was Windows 2.0+EMM386) Windows didn't really have 386 support until 3.0 Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Apr 24 12:12:27 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: <3CC61FE0.CF9A033F@rain.org> from Marvin Johnston at "Apr 23, 2002 08:00:48 pm" Message-ID: <200204241712.KAA04481@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows > 386. I should also point out that regardless of the processor Windows 286 ran in real mode without support for XMS. Windows 386 ran under EMM386 which put the processor in Virtual mode. The windows executable was identical to the 286 version and memory beyond 640k was accessed via the EEMS 3.2 specification (EMS 4.0 didn't yet exist). Eric From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 12:13:29 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: from Sridhar the POWERful at "Apr 22, 2002 12:42:30 pm" Message-ID: <200204241713.g3OHDTW6019074@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2002, Dan Wright wrote: > > > > Nah, most of us are code sluts. We run whatever works best on a given > > > platform. And if you want to see real OS attitude, put a Solaris admin > > > across the table from an AIX admin. Then step way back. > > > > I admin both. And also IRIX, Linux, and a little HP-UX. Should I be > > walking down the street twitching and arguing with myself, or > > something? ;) > > Arguing violently with yourself and losing. 8-) > > Peace... Sridhar A yes... That explains my current state of mental health: Alliant Concentrix (4.2 BSD) Coherent (v3, v4) Concurrent/Perkin-Elmer OS/32 Concurrent Xelos Concurrent RTU DEC RT11 DEC Vax/VMS (v2.x, 3.x, 4.x) OpenVMS 7.1 FreeBSD (v1.x, 2.x, 3,x, 4.x) HP-UX (v9.x) IBM AIX RS6000 (v3.2,4.1.x) Linux (Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera, Slackware, SLS, Suse) SCO/Caldera Open Desktop/Server, SCO/Caldera Unixware 2.x, Xenix86) SunOS4.x Solaris2.x,7,8 Pyramid OS/X Pyramid DC/OSx Unix System III (UnipLUS Unix System V (Release 0,2,3,4) I guess talking to my self and jerking violently and twitching is ok then after 20 years in the biz... Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 12:11:44 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3CC6E750.B752314E@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Hellige wrote: > Plenty of people couldn't afford what you consider a computer > and had their first experience with computers using what you deem as > 'toys'. I doubt that early user's of the Atari, Commodore, TRS-80 or > Sinclair machines would appreciate that label though. Nor did > everyone have either the ability or desire to write major portions of > the OS to get into the S-100 bus boxes, even if they could afford > them. Also development software was expensive too! A SD floppy of 85k would permit a OS like Flex or CP/M but not much more! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 24 12:17:36 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Coco (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Yeah, I'm certain there was a serial port, but I can't tell you > about it. It's been a while. Yes, it had a serial port. with a 4 pin DIN? It was clearly described in their literature as being "RS-232". Unfortunately, that stood for "RADIO SHACK 232". > > expand it to do something useful? No more or less so than any other computer. Like any other computer, you can use it to keep track of notes, receipts, appointments, etc. (all of which can usually be done as well, or better, by a refrigerator door.) As a terminal or word processor, it was badly limited by the screen configuration. > Actually, there are applications that do 80x24 in some high-res > video mode, for word processing and the like. I ran at least one > on my CoCo1 with 64k of RAM. There were numerous fixes, some good, some bad. (such as 3 x 6 character matrix to get more characters on the screen) > > ... see what I mean? You have to do so much to the thing > > that RS sells you > > that it takes up a whole tabletop just to get to what's in > > the PC's box, and So? Is your "Hi-Fi" ALSO all in one box? Or is it a group of separate components? You're not capable of reboxing a computer? A friend, and business associate, used to repackage computers into Halliburton attache cases. He made a portable Coco with drives, 5" screen (and connection for external), as well as a number of other models. His "BMC-80" one piece portable CP/M machine was introduced (at my booth) at the West Coast Computer Faire a day before Osborne's introduction. That did not stop Adam from calling his "first and only" even though he had already spent half an hour admiring ours before his was introduced. That's all right. His booth had ~$50K of chrome and black plexiglass; WE had cold beer (which repeatedly got us free ink in Jerry Pournelle's column). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 12:20:55 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: <000601c1ea03$778e4ae0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> from Allison at "Apr 22, 2002 09:41:50 am" Message-ID: <200204241720.g3OHKtla019318@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > I figured it might be IBM as they did some odd things over the years. > Another that comes to mind is Interdata (not the 8/32), any one know > on that one. > > Allison Nah, the 7/32, 8/32, 32xx and later Interdata/Perkin Elmer/Concurrent boxes of the OS/32 and Xelos variety were straight 8 bit byte 32 bit 360 architecture kind of stuff. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 24 12:22:42 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: > refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage > interfaces as > toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. An amazingly strange and irrelevant distinction! Where was the mass storage interface of a 360 physically located? The disk drives were NOT in the same box as the CPU. I sincerely doubt that putting the disk controller inside or outside the CPU box has any significant effect on the Zuse number of the computer. From pat at purdueriots.com Wed Apr 24 12:16:30 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb In-Reply-To: <200204241652.g3OGqpMa018649@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Rumor has it that James B. DiGriz may have mentioned these words: > > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... it's fully Linux certified as > > > well...] > > 6G... I get OS/2, Win3.1, Lotus SmartSuite, PC Dos7, and Linux or FreeBSD and > X and OpenOffice in 4gb without disk compression on an IBM 760XL laptop. > > Linux is all in how you install it. Default's a pig. (Especially Mandrake > and Redhat...) Gee, Dick, then I have no idea on how I got Linux installed on this 200M HDD in my 486 here. Especially considering that 16M of that is swap space. Amazingly enough I still have about 60M free space... For a more suitable install, I can easily install everything I really use (between X windows and a few apps, gaim for IM, kernel source so I can recompile my kernel, gcc and related stuff) in 1G or less of space. If you're tight on space, just don't use anything with a nifty graphical installer... those distros tend to bloat out more than things like Debian or Slackware (or *BSD). -- Pat From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 24 12:31:56 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: anyone with an old national memory databook ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020424110211.009637b0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020424133156.00823100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> There's nothing like that in the 1980 IC Master. The ICM has a section on NS 64k DRAMs but there's nothing close to that in there either. Have you got a date for it? Joe At 11:02 AM 4/24/02 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for info on a National Semi 4916944-2 memory IC in >a 16-pin 0.3" DIP package. I am assuming that it is some variant >of the 4164, but am not sure. > >--tnx >--tom > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 24 12:34:37 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: <200204241713.g3OHDTW6019074@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <200204241713.g3OHDTW6019074@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <02Apr24.135938edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > > I admin both. And also IRIX, Linux, and a little HP-UX. Should I be >> > walking down the street twitching and arguing with myself, or >> > something? ;) > > > > Arguing violently with yourself and losing. 8-) >> > >A yes... That explains my current state of mental health: > > Alliant Concentrix (4.2 BSD) > Coherent (v3, v4) > Concurrent/Perkin-Elmer OS/32 > Concurrent Xelos > Concurrent RTU > DEC RT11 > DEC Vax/VMS (v2.x, 3.x, 4.x) OpenVMS 7.1 > FreeBSD (v1.x, 2.x, 3,x, 4.x) > HP-UX (v9.x) > IBM AIX RS6000 (v3.2,4.1.x) > Linux (Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera, Slackware, SLS, Suse) > SCO/Caldera Open Desktop/Server, SCO/Caldera Unixware 2.x, Xenix86) > SunOS4.x > Solaris2.x,7,8 > Pyramid OS/X > Pyramid DC/OSx > Unix System III (UnipLUS > Unix System V (Release 0,2,3,4) > > I guess talking to my self and jerking violently and twitching is ok > then after 20 years in the biz... No IRIX in the mix? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 12:34:29 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" References: <200204241707.KAA04381@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3CC6ECA5.5E1BF2AC@jetnet.ab.ca> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > > > > I don't recall any "Windows 2.0", but rather Windows 286 and Windows > > 386. > > Windows 2.0 originally shipped as Windows 2.0, then split into Windows 286 > (which was just Windows 2.0 and would run on an 8080) and Windows 386 (which > was Windows 2.0+EMM386) > > Windows didn't really have 386 support until 3.0 Dos never had 386 support ... grrr! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Wed Apr 24 12:48:43 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: dec Lab Modules Message-ID: <200204241748.AA00924@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 00:22:21 -0400 (EDT) > From: Doug Salot > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: dec Lab Modules > In-Reply-To: <200204240417.g3O4HZQ23049@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I think he's asking about "laboratory modules" -- the *original* DEC > products from 1957 or so. You snapped the lab modules into a power > backplane (power supply was one of the "DEC Building Blocks") and > connected the logic elements via patch cords. > > The power pins aren't documented in my 1960 dec logic handbook, and they > don't seem to be documented in Bell's "Computer Engineering" either, so I > assume you need to find a "DEC Building Blocks" technical bulletin or > reverse engineer one of the lab modules -- this might help: > > http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books/Computer_Engineering/00000128.htm I have here in my hands a 4-page "Specifications/Prices" sheet that is titled "DEC Digital Test Equipment" and covers the building blocks. But not in enough detail to determin pinouts. It is dated November 1958. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 12:47:54 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178449D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Finnegan [mailto:pat@purdueriots.com] > For a more suitable install, I can easily install everything > I really use > (between X windows and a few apps, gaim for IM, kernel source so I can > recompile my kernel, gcc and related stuff) in 1G or less of space. I'll go with the "or less." I have personally put Linux, X11, GCC, a few apps, etc, along with a swap file (that worked very slowly) on 60MB of a 95MB zip disk. I'm sure I can do better, too... Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 24 12:53:34 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204241655.g3OGtjFl018717@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Bill Pechter wrote: > > >Well, there's always WordStar for Windows or Lotus SmartSuite or > > >WordPerfect Office. > > > > I was always a Wordstar fan, and have a couple of versions > > here still, but Wordstar for Windows was horrible! > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > Actually, version 1 sucked but I picked up v2 for $10 and found it > pretty useable even on 486's. > > On the k6-2/450 I have it flies. > > Bill We have some of our old manuals in WSWIN format. Funny thing is that WSWIN was written for WIN 3.1, barely runs on W9X (GPF hell) but seems quite happy on NT... > > -- > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com > Peter Wallace From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 24 12:57:33 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <002201c1eba3$c7131e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <005f01c1ebb9$834b1ea0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> [From: Richard Erlacher [Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:21 AM Hmmmm, an 10kilobyte post. Must've lost another argument.... John A. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 24 13:06:11 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146786A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This is the whole list. The room has to be emptied _today_, so I can bring stuff home with me, if you want to get it later in the day. I'll try to take home any of the smaller unclaimed stuff to store. Again, everything is in unknown, untested condition; as-is. Let me know by around 5:00 pm eastern time... > ---------- > From: David Woyciesjes > > We're cleaning here, and got some stuff being tossed. > > Free, Come pick it up... > > 12 old modems - Gandalf LDS125 (?) > about 12 (?) dozen tape reels. 12" diameter. They're in 4 15" monitor > boxes... -1 box is probably taken... > 2 HP LaserJet IID, with duplex - Taken? > 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex - taken? > some long comms(?) cables > Epson line printers > CSU/DSU > -- > And here's more stuff... 2 Topaz Powermaker UPSs 1, maybe 2 Datability Vista terminal servers 1, maybe 2 Delnis Digital DECRepeater 350 DeskJet 500 DeskJet Plus VT220 VT420 Radius 21" (?) monchrome monitor -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Apr 24 13:05:02 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: Message-ID: <3CC6F3CE.5020805@dragonsweb.org> Doc wrote: > > That's extortion. That's rampant egotism, trading on his popularity > and his desirability as a guest to enforce his whims. > Extortion??? Does the UG have some kind of claim to his time? I'd say it was principled zealotry, not egotism, in Stallman's case. Open source needs a few influential zealots like him, or it would rapidly be co-opted and devolve to the same old shit. I'm not saying he couldn't be more diplomatic, just that we benefit from his intransigence, even if it it's annoying or inconvenient. You never can be quite sure anyone understands open source unless they grok Stallman. jbdigriz From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Wed Apr 24 13:11:32 2002 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Looking for documents of IMS - boards Message-ID: <170RF3-24BoZMC@fwd04.sul.t-online.com> I got an help for some IMS board , hope that someone here have an answer >Subject: Thanks for files >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just want to thank you for making the old manuals and image files available on http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/ I found things here (like the IMS information) I have been hunting for years. I am still looking for documents etc for some other IMS S-100 boards dating from around 1980-84: - A862 Z80 CPU - A930 Floppy Controller - A821 Winchester Controller - A1100 Winchester Controller - A1021 64K RAM You don't by any chance have files for these, do you? :) Best wishes, Arlen Michaels arlen.michaels@sympatico.ca ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== Thank you @ classiccmp@classiccmp.org . I like this group. PLease answer only to arlen.michaels@sympatico.ca Thanks Greetings from Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 13:11:49 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Windows 2 (Was: Re: "Windows V1.0) In-Reply-To: <000701c1eb81$e25d2bf0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > Windows 2 was what they shipped so you could run Excel, which had grown > > popular on the MacIntosh, on the PC/AT. That's where much of the prejudice > > against "smartdrv" came from, since that first release didn't work very well. > > I don't think there were many other app's for it. > > Windows 2.0 came to me bundled with my Microsoft Mouse > (the Dove Bar version with the steel rollers). > > As far as apps, Micrografix Draw was somewhat popular; > but you're right, there weren't many... Aldus Pagemaker was another popular Windows 2.0 application. Peace... Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Apr 24 13:12:34 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178449D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E0178449D@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <02Apr24.143736edt.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > For a more suitable install, I can easily install everything >> I really use >> (between X windows and a few apps, gaim for IM, kernel source so I can >> recompile my kernel, gcc and related stuff) in 1G or less of space. > >I'll go with the "or less." I have personally put Linux, X11, GCC, a few >apps, etc, along with a swap file (that worked very slowly) on 60MB of a >95MB zip disk. For a full install of the server portion of RedHat 7.1, I can fit it in 1.15GB. RedHat Workstation took up a bit more space. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Apr 24 13:32:02 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Emulex "UC07/08 distribution panel Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146786D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This has been taken... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: David Woyciesjes > > > > > Which reminds me. I have an Emulex "UC07/08 distribution panel" sitting on > my shelf here. Anybody want it? > > -- > --- David A Woyciesjes > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 13:27:15 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Cenbtral Florida JunkFest In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020424101239.0084dba0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Joe wrote: > Eric is plannng on arriving here at about 5 PM on Thursday the 16th > and leaving the next day to go to Jacksonville (he has a dinner date > there that night). Therefore I'm planning on having the JunkFest on > Friday morning. Glen has already aggreed that we can hold it at his > store in west Orlando. I know it would be better if we could hold it > on a weekend but it didn't work out. I don't think it will be a problem for me. > I was also thinking of trying to get everyone together and going out > to dinner on Thursday evening. That would give us some time to chew > the fat before the junkfest. I'm not planning on anything fancy, just > someplace where we can all pile in and sit around and talk. > > Let me know what you think. I'm game. Peace... Sridhar > >The plan has firmed up a bit. I expect to arrive in Orlando on Thursday > >May 16 at 4:51 PM, on American Airlines flight 244 from Los Angeles. > > > >I'll depart for Jacksonville on Friday the 17th. It looks like I'll > >either take a bus which departs Orlando at 3:30 PM, or a train that > >departs Orlando at 3:53 PM. > > > >I'd like to figure out the travel and accomodation details. I hope you > >won't think me too rude if I ask whether I might be able to sleep on the > >floor at your place. I'll have an Aerobed with me. However, if that's > >not convenient for you, don't feel pressured; just let me know of an > >inexpensive motel nearby. > > > >Mapquest says that you're about 22 miles from the airport. Do you know > >if there is any shuttle service that will get me to your place (or to the > >motel)? > > > >If it's not too much trouble, could you please measure the outside > >dimensions of the IBM 5100? I may be able to borrow a suitable transit > >case, but I need to make sure it will fit. > > > >Best regards, > >Eric > > > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 13:38:04 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020424183804.42793.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pat Finnegan wrote: > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > Rumor has it that James B. DiGriz may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... > > > > Linux is all in how you install it. Default's a pig. (Especially > Mandrake and Redhat...) No kidding. Solaris, too. Pretty much any UNIX can expand to overflow an ordinary boot disk if you throw on all the bells and whistles. > Gee, Dick, then I have no idea on how I got Linux installed on this 200M > HDD in my 486 here. Especially considering that 16M of that is swap > space. Amazingly enough I still have about 60M free space... My tightest Linux install recently was RedHat 5.2 on a 120M disk in a PS/2-E. No X. No compiler. I've got a functional kernel and a webcam app with ftp client (to export the pictures) on a floppy disk. I also have Linux with a GUI, browser, messenger client and MP3 player in the 16M flash disk of my iOpener. It's all about what your target is. I certainly do not need everything that comes with RedHat and never install 100% of it, even when I have a multi-gig disk. OTOH, I've been installing UNIX since the days of 4.1BSD and Ultrix 1.1 on 120MB disks and smaller, so I'm accustomed to being selective and not taking the default install. Kids today don't bother. Disk is too cheap. > For a more suitable install, I can easily install everything I really use > (between X windows and a few apps, gaim for IM, kernel source so I can > recompile my kernel, gcc and related stuff) in 1G or less of space. Exactly. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 13:40:07 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at "Apr 24, 2002 10:53:34 am" Message-ID: <200204241840.g3OIe7fO019479@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > We have some of our old manuals in WSWIN format. Funny thing is that > WSWIN was written for WIN 3.1, barely runs on W9X (GPF hell) but seems quite > happy on NT... > > > > > > > -- > > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com > > > > Peter Wallace I've run it on Win3.1, 95 and 98 and OS/2 with some luck. bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 13:40:21 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:06 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Mark Tapley wrote: > a used (Sony) PS/2 and we'll all be happier. For many kinds of work, > very near the good end of that scale. Sony never made PS/2s. They made PS2's. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 13:41:55 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to one > > intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface is > > external. > > Jeez, Dick. I can't believe you dragged me back into this. Where > did you find that little tidbit of inductive logic? > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products > intended for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a > computer", since they have no internal mass storage. Do I think that > was a great design? No. Did _anyone_ _ever_ mistake them for a toy? > Get a grip. No matter whether or not you _like_ those DECstations, or > a score of other application-oriented computers that had > external-storage-only designs, that statement is just ludicrous. The VAST majority of mainframes have only external disk storage. I don't think *anyone* would confuse an ES/9000 9221 with a toy. Peace... Sridhar From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 13:44:31 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb Message-ID: <000701c1ebc0$125b3520$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > From: Pat Finnegan [mailto:pat@purdueriots.com] > > > For a more suitable install, I can easily install everything I really use > > (between X windows and a few apps, gaim for IM, kernel source so I can > > recompile my kernel, gcc and related stuff) in 1G or less of space. > > I'll go with the "or less." I have personally put Linux, X11, GCC, a few > apps, etc, along with a swap file (that worked very slowly) on 60MB of a > 95MB zip disk. My first Linux box was a 40MHz 386-DX (AMD) with 4MB of RAM and a pair of 40MB Seagate ST-251s... downloaded a piece at a time from the UNC sunsite onto floppies and installed from them I used the UMDOS filesystem, since the machine normally booted into DOS 5; I used LOADLIN to load Linux (still do on my workstation at home). My first kernel build took 27 hours. After a series of builds, I think I got the total build time down to about 16 hours. Eventually, I copied that system to a single 120MB Seagate IDE drive and ran that on a 486 for a while. One day, on a whim, I brought that drive into work and installed it in a 233MHz Pentium (one). Kernel build time: 15 minutes. ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 24 13:44:53 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: anyone with an old national memory databook ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020424133156.00823100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20020424110211.009637b0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020424134453.00818690@ubanproductions.com> The closest thing to a date code is B8444. I may also have separate confirmation that it is a 16k bit part. --tom At 01:31 PM 4/24/02 -0400, you wrote: > There's nothing like that in the 1980 IC Master. The ICM has a section on NS 64k DRAMs but there's nothing close to that in there either. Have you got a date for it? > > Joe > > >At 11:02 AM 4/24/02 -0500, you wrote: >>I am looking for info on a National Semi 4916944-2 memory IC in >>a 16-pin 0.3" DIP package. I am assuming that it is some variant >>of the 4164, but am not sure. >> >>--tnx >>--tom >> >> > > > From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 14:01:42 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Unix versions Message-ID: <000f01c1ebc2$78ccb930$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > I guess talking to my self and jerking violently and twitching is ok > > then after 20 years in the biz... > > No IRIX in the mix? IRIX in morning, sysadmins take warning... IRIX at night, hacker's delight. -dq From hansp at aconit.org Wed Apr 24 14:12:38 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: RT11 & RSX cd images - additional site References: <015801c1eba4$dec04130$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CC703A6.20403@aconit.org> Jay West wrote: > cd images to www.classiccmp.org/PDP11 www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11 seems to work much better ;-) -- hbp From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 14:13:52 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > My first Linux box was a 40MHz 386-DX (AMD) with 4MB of RAM and a Mine was a 16Mhz 386SX, with 3MB of RAM. (One SIMM, and a strange XMS ISA card from a slightly older system. :) > pair of 40MB Seagate ST-251s... downloaded a piece at a time from Single 40MB IDE disk. > the UNC sunsite onto floppies and installed from them I used the Softlanding from a local BBS... ;) > UMDOS filesystem, since the machine normally booted into DOS 5; "Enhanced" MINIX FS -- I actually got a copy of FIPS, and broke the disk into two partitions. The linux part was slightly larger than 10M, with five for swap. > I used LOADLIN to load Linux (still do on my workstation at home). Used LILO. > My first kernel build took 27 hours. After a series of builds, > I think I got the total build time down to about 16 hours. I don't remember, actually, I used to start them running, and just leave them. Never build a kernel on that machine, though. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 24 14:30:39 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <001701c1eb82$edfaff90$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 24, 2002 07:26:51 AM Message-ID: <200204241930.PAA14974@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Douglas H. Quebbeman once stated: > > The interesting thing is that so much of Letwin's book contradicts > a magazine article by IBM's Ed Iaccabucci, where Ed described > a dynamic linking mechanism that worked exactly like the one in > Multics. So at one point, *early* on, there were divergent path > of development for OS/2, that ended up coalescing into one, the > wrong one... Would you happen to remember the magazine and when? -spc (would be interested in reading that article ... ) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 14:34:14 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020424193414.9959.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc wrote: > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to > > one intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface > > is external. > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > since they have no internal mass storage. I'm not so sure I understand what Dick is asserting here... If he means "no internal mass storage; all disks external", I think we can all come up with a raft of exceptions (from my own collection, DECMate I, VAX-11/750, PDP-11/70, VAX 8200, PDP-8/L, MINC-11... hardly computers for the "toy market"). One might argue that mini-computers would not be confused with toys, but from a form-factor standpoint, A DECmate-I CPU, for example, is smaller than a TRS-80 Model III. A MINC-11 isn't particularly large compared to a full-tower case (and the BA32 that contains is about the same size; the 42" rack just has room for cables; no active components). If he means "no internal mass storage interface", he might have something of a point. Ignoring audio cassette, I can think of few computers more complicated than a traditional "single-board" computer that lack an in- cabinet mass storage interface. The PET, VIC-20 and C-64 all interface to disks (floppy _and_ fixed (D9060/D9090 for the PET, anyway)) without any sort of hardware or ROM pgrade, but the disk is external. The ZX-80- family lacks any sort of internal disk interface. The Elf, the VIP, the KIM, SYM, AIM-65, etc., all SBCs and all lacking disk interfaces. Non- Zorro-equipped Amigas (A1000, A500, A500+) have floppy but not hard disk interfaces in-box, but the A600 and A1200 have 44-pin internal IDE ports. Does that make the A500 a toy, but not the A600? I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for machines that have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface (if any; I'll bend and accept a serial port as a network interface if it runs some network protocol - SLIP, PPP, LocalTalk, DDCMP...) I'm not sure how to classify single-boards, though. By the nature of them being simplistic in design and user-interface, they appeal to the electronics hobby market more than the home/kids market. Kids wanted a TI-99/4 or a VIC-20 or a C-64. Kids were not so enthusiastic about a Z-80 starter kit (which happens to have two S-100 slots and an intergral EPROM burner) or a KIM-1 or a COSMAC Elf. Mind you, I love toy computers. They have been fun and profitable for me. Others, though, need that "bittybox" label to glorify whatever they like at the expense of others. Let's at least agree on what constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. Meanwhile... Back To The Toys! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 14:36:20 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020424193620.56122.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > a used (Sony) PS/2 and we'll all be happier. For many kinds of work, > > very near the good end of that scale. > > Sony never made PS/2s. They made PS2's. Right... remember "OS/2 for the PS/2 - half an OS for half a computer"? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 24 14:45:42 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > The VAST majority of mainframes have only external disk storage. I don't > think *anyone* would confuse an ES/9000 9221 with a toy. We thought that that WAS the kind of toy that you have. From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 24 14:59:15 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: anyone with an old national memory databook ? Message-ID: <200204241959.MAA01953@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Uban" > >I am looking for info on a National Semi 4916944-2 memory IC in >a 16-pin 0.3" DIP package. I am assuming that it is some variant >of the 4164, but am not sure. > >--tnx >--tom > > Hi Tom This is most likely a OEM number. What machine did it come out of? It looks like it might be a HP number or something. A lot of places have their own part numbering system that several manufactures will make labled parts for them. You may need to check what parts were listed for that application. Of course, if the power lines are correct, you can always try the part you think it is. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 24 15:06:50 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb Message-ID: <000c01c1ebcb$95a82e00$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Christopher Smith >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > > >"Enhanced" MINIX FS -- I actually got a copy of FIPS, and broke the >disk into two partitions. The linux part was slightly larger than >10M, with five for swap. My first pass was Minix2.0 {very fast on a 386/16 with 5mb) and used that to download Linux. The first linix install frm CD was on a 8mb 486slc/25 with an 80mb IDE disk. The current Linux toy is 486/133 with 16mb and a 2.1mb disk from the Caldara Openlinux 2.3 CD. Most of the bells and toys are installed and it's big but useful. A bare bones install still fits on a small disk with useful room if you forget all the packages and Xserver. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 24 15:07:52 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <1ab.1460575.29f86a98@aol.com> In a message dated 4/24/2002 2:52:50 PM Central Daylight Time, erd_6502@yahoo.com writes: > Right... remember "OS/2 for the PS/2 - half an OS for half a computer"? > > -ethan > > > ah, but those of us who use both know that that couldnt be further from the truth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/2a067916/attachment.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 24 15:07:47 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: RT11 & RSX cd images - additional site References: <015801c1eba4$dec04130$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3CC703A6.20403@aconit.org> Message-ID: <024801c1ebcb$b44eb4f0$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dohhhhh! thanks Hans - yes, it is www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11 Sorry! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans B Pufal" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: Re: RT11 & RSX cd images - additional site > Jay West wrote: > > > cd images to www.classiccmp.org/PDP11 > > www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11 seems to work much better ;-) > > -- hbp > > > From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 15:27:46 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format Message-ID: <000701c1ebce$7f5805f0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > It was thus said that the Great Douglas H. Quebbeman once stated: > > > > The interesting thing is that so much of Letwin's book contradicts > > a magazine article by IBM's Ed Iaccabucci, where Ed described > > a dynamic linking mechanism that worked exactly like the one in > > Multics. So at one point, *early* on, there were divergent path > > of development for OS/2, that ended up coalescing into one, the > > wrong one... > > Would you happen to remember the magazine and when? It was around 1987, and it was one of those controlled- circulation magazines, many of which are excellent and not mere advertising rags... "Mini-Micro Systems" may have been it... whatever it was, it underwent a name change while I was subscribed, and I have been searching for the article since about 1990. I've thought about asking Ed personally, but he's a corporate big-wig now, possibly succumbed to PHB disease, and so on... The article galvanized me into buying OS/2 1.0 (Zenith version). I was *very* disappointed when I got the docs on programming the system, and discovered I'd once again suffered from bait-and-switch... -dq From msspcva at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 15:34:48 2002 From: msspcva at yahoo.com (Clayton Helvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Looking for MicroVAX 3100 model 20E comm parts Message-ID: <20020424203448.927.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all: I've got a problem finding some parts and I'm hoping someone on this list can help me out. I'm looking for a DSH32-YA second synchronous serial card option P/N 54-17230-01, and especially it's cable P/N 17-02298-01. These go with a DSH32-BA combo controller module for the MicroVAX 3100 Model 20E systems from DEC. Please email or call me at the number below if you've got the -YA module and the cable, or just the cable. Thanks, Frank Helvey ===== = M O N T V A L E S O F T W A R E S E R V I C E S P. C.= Clayton Frank Helvey, President Montvale Software Services, P. C. P.O. Box 840 Blue Ridge, VA 24064-0840 Phone: 540.947.5364 Email: msspcva@yahoo.com ============================================================ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 15:36:52 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > The VAST majority of mainframes have only external disk storage. I don't > > think *anyone* would confuse an ES/9000 9221 with a toy. > > We thought that that WAS the kind of toy that you have. Hehehe. Peace... Sridhar From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Apr 24 15:45:47 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb In-Reply-To: <20020424183804.42793.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020424183804.42793.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020424204547.GA234291@uiuc.edu> Ethan Dicks said: > > I've got a functional kernel and a webcam app with ftp client (to export > the pictures) on a floppy disk. I also have Linux with a GUI, browser, > messenger client and MP3 player in the 16M flash disk of my iOpener. Did you install linux on the flash disk? If so, what did you do? I just put a 4GB HDD in my iOpener :) If not, it comes with QNX, not linux... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Apr 24 15:47:55 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: <000f01c1ebc2$78ccb930$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> References: <000f01c1ebc2$78ccb930$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020424204755.GB234291@uiuc.edu> Douglas H. Quebbeman said: > > IRIX in morning, sysadmins take warning... > IRIX at night, hacker's delight. Heheh. I run a bunch of IRIX machines used for scientific computing :) It's really not so bad, if you ignore the more horrifying examples of brain-deadness (what? 16 CDs for an OS install?!...) > > > > -dq - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 15:48:33 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > If he means "no internal mass storage interface", he might ...but what is "internal?" If the storage interface is in a separate rack, does that make the machine a toy? After that, what is a "storage interface?" A common 'IDE' disk will plug nearly directly into an ISA bus. Does that mean that any system with an ISA bus could not be a "toy?" We could further assume that most busses could be adapted in similar ways to drive mass storage devices, and claim that no computer with any bus which could do this can be a toy. > have something > of a point. Ignoring audio cassette, I can think of few > computers more > complicated than a traditional "single-board" computer that > lack an in- > cabinet mass storage interface. The PET, VIC-20 and C-64 all Well, again, which cabinet? > interfaces. Non- > Zorro-equipped Amigas (A1000, A500, A500+) have floppy but > not hard disk > interfaces in-box, but the A600 and A1200 have 44-pin > internal IDE ports. > Does that make the A500 a toy, but not the A600? What about the Mac plus which had a SCSI interface, but Apple discouraged its use (preferring, rather, that you plug your hard drive into the floppy interface, IIRC)... > I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for > machines that > have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface (if > any; I'll bend and accept a serial port as a network > interface if it runs > some network protocol - SLIP, PPP, LocalTalk, DDCMP...) I'm not sure > how to classify single-boards, though. By the nature of them being Transputers might also be tricky. > Mind you, I love toy computers. They have been fun and profitable for > me. Others, though, need that "bittybox" label to glorify whatever > they like at the expense of others. Let's at least agree on what > constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. I'd say anything that runs windows primarily. *duck* Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Apr 24 16:14:03 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Unix versions Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844AC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wright [mailto:dtwright@uiuc.edu] > Heheh. I run a bunch of IRIX machines used for scientific > computing :) It's > really not so bad, if you ignore the more horrifying examples of > brain-deadness (what? 16 CDs for an OS install?!...) One of the great mysteries of the universe is the ability of windows to take up more space than IRIX once installed, but only fit on one disk. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 16:20:37 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb References: <20020424183804.42793.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC721A5.3D9143ED@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's all about what your target is. I certainly do not need everything > that comes with RedHat and never install 100% of it, even when I have > a multi-gig disk. OTOH, I've been installing UNIX since the days of > 4.1BSD and Ultrix 1.1 on 120MB disks and smaller, so I'm accustomed to > being selective and not taking the default install. Kids today don't > bother. Disk is too cheap. You can get some tiny linux's like 'loaf' linux on a floppy but they are all lib #5 of gnu. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 16:22:32 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <20020424193620.56122.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC72218.4E5F5031@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Right... remember "OS/2 for the PS/2 - half an OS for half a computer"? does OS/9 give you 1/9' th a computer? Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From truthanl at oclc.org Wed Apr 24 16:39:15 2002 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: DEC3000 Model 500 Message-ID: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D535@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> What is a Dec 3000 model 500? Has a cd rom. and a SCSI port out the back. Looks Like an Alpha Processor system. What OS? Peanut 2.2? on handwritten CD. I am a digest subscriber. Sincerely Larry Truthan From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 17:21:28 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: DEC3000 Model 500 In-Reply-To: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D535@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Truthan,Larry wrote: > What is a Dec 3000 model 500? Has a cd rom. and a SCSI port out the > back. Looks Like an Alpha Processor system. What OS? Peanut 2.2? > on handwritten CD. Please, take the time to write your posts in proper grammar. Thank you. That said, this system is indeed an Alpha. It will run Tru64, OpenVMS, NetBSD, and others. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 24 17:31:47 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: DEC3000 Model 500 In-Reply-To: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D535@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Truthan,Larry wrote: > What is a Dec 3000 model 500? Has a cd rom. and a SCSI port out the back. > Looks Like an Alpha Processor system. What OS? Peanut 2.2? on > handwritten CD. > > > I am a digest subscriber. > Sincerely Larry Truthan > 3000/500 = Turbo Channel Alpha: 21064A CPU, 150 MHz (or 200 MHz if it's a 500X) 2 SCSI channels on MB Runs: 1. OSF/1 - Tru64 - DU or whatever they call it nowadays 2. VMS 3. NetBSD Peter Wallace From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Wed Apr 24 13:11:32 2002 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Looking for documents of IMS - boards Message-ID: <170RF3-24BoZMC@fwd04.sul.t-online.com> I got an help for some IMS board , hope that someone here have an answer >Subject: Thanks for files >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just want to thank you for making the old manuals and image files available on http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/ I found things here (like the IMS information) I have been hunting for years. I am still looking for documents etc for some other IMS S-100 boards dating from around 1980-84: - A862 Z80 CPU - A930 Floppy Controller - A821 Winchester Controller - A1100 Winchester Controller - A1021 64K RAM You don't by any chance have files for these, do you? :) Best wishes, Arlen Michaels arlen.michaels@sympatico.ca ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== Thank you @ classiccmp@classiccmp.org . I like this group. PLease answer only to arlen.michaels@sympatico.ca Thanks Greetings from Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ From root at diablonet.net Wed Apr 24 17:47:19 2002 From: root at diablonet.net (Sean Caron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: UNIX versions Message-ID: <3CC735F4.38C6169D@diablonet.net> Douglas H. Quebbeman said: > > IRIX in morning, sysadmins take warning... > IRIX at night, hacker's delight. Hey, I actually like IRIX quite a bit! :) Granted, if I wanted to run an Internet server, I would probably reach for one of my Sun slabs running NetBSD, but my desktop UNIX workstation sitting next to me here is an Indigo2! I love SGI hardware -- I have a ton of Indy, Indigo, and Indigo2 systems that I run as UNIX workstations around the house, and I have not yet found a window manager that I prefer over 4Dwm. All my SGI machines are superbly reliable, although security can get to be a concern sometimes. 16 CDs? That seems really strange -- I tend to throw almost the entire system on my machines (drive space willing) and it takes maybe six or seven for 6.5.0... Kind regards, Sean Caron -- Sean Caron http://www.diablonet.net scaron@engin.umich.edu root@diablonet.net From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Sun Apr 21 15:00:44 2002 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) References: <3CC428A7.30241.3180B735@localhost> <3CC43020.4645.319DE7ED@localhost> Message-ID: <000201c1e9f1$91d17ce0$23d2f1c3@cx> /360 24 bit addresses, 8 bit bytes 32 bit registers Wim > > I don't know about the /360, but the the /370 and /390 used 8-bit bytes, > > 32-bit words, and 31-bit (!) addressing. > > Well, > > /360 16 Bit address NO, 24 bit !!! > /370 24 Bit address > /390 24 or 31 Bit address > > All architectures had 8 Bit Bytes and 32 Bit Registers > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 16:04:39 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <90bfa8cd09.8cd0990bfa@bigpond.com> from "blacklord" at Apr 24, 2 07:46:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 829 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/678524e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 16:11:41 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Cheap tools (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204232214.PAA01215@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Apr 23, 2 03:14:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1531 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/d1234f0b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 17:49:54 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: anyone with an old national memory databook ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020424110211.009637b0@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Apr 24, 2 11:02:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/ae459421/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 17:26:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <008701c1eb32$b09a9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2 07:52:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2918 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/ab0d39ef/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 17:59:16 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 24, 2 10:22:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1003 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/8c62357d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 17:34:48 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? In-Reply-To: <20020424053139.SJGR22485.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Apr 24, 2 00:55:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/97a85930/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 17:37:21 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <012e01c1eb4c$4fca89c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 23, 2 10:55:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/b7276868/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 17:48:23 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 24, 2 09:43:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020424/ee5f807d/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 24 18:21:56 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Unix versions" (Apr 24, 13:13) References: <200204241713.g3OHDTW6019074@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <10204250021.ZM4133@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 24, 13:13, Bill Pechter wrote: > A yes... That explains my current state of mental health: > > Alliant Concentrix (4.2 BSD) > Coherent (v3, v4) > Concurrent/Perkin-Elmer OS/32 > Concurrent Xelos > Concurrent RTU > DEC RT11 > DEC Vax/VMS (v2.x, 3.x, 4.x) OpenVMS 7.1 > FreeBSD (v1.x, 2.x, 3,x, 4.x) > HP-UX (v9.x) > IBM AIX RS6000 (v3.2,4.1.x) > Linux (Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera, Slackware, SLS, Suse) > SCO/Caldera Open Desktop/Server, SCO/Caldera Unixware 2.x, Xenix86) > SunOS4.x > Solaris2.x,7,8 > Pyramid OS/X > Pyramid DC/OSx > Unix System III (UnipLUS > Unix System V (Release 0,2,3,4) Mine is approximately BSD 2.11 BSD 4.3 Vax/VMS 5.something RT-11 RSX-11M RISC OS (Acorn, not MIPS RISCOS) Acorn MOS CP/M 2.2 NeXTStep 3.3, OpenStep 4.2(?) Solaris 2.3, Solaris 7 Linux (Slackware, RedHat) IRIX (5.3, 6.5) Windows NT (OK, I know, but it's only used to decode or print Word docs) Those are the ones I've used recently. If you want to count the others here, there's AIX, other Windows, OS/8, 7th Edition Unix, XXDP, and too many more to remember. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 18:20:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 24, 2 03:48:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/5b2ef9ac/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 18:57:42 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > Where was the mass storage interface of a 360 physically located? The > > disk drives were NOT in the same box as the CPU. > > The original configuration of the PDP11/45 I now own was an RK03 (I > don't think the RK05 had been released at that point!) with an RK11-C > controller. The RK11-C was 4 rows of flip-chip boards that mounted > separately in the rack -- it didn't fit into the CPU box. So > presumably this PDP11/45 was intended as a toy. THis is nothing short > of amazing! How about an S/390. There's racks and racks of disk. They wouldn't come anywhere near close to fitting in the CPU cabinet. The *disk controller* is a *double 27" rack* full of hardware. I *know* an S/390 wasn't meant as a toy. Peace... Sridhar From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 24 19:01:39 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: "R.I.P. for D.I.Y." Message-ID: <3CC74763.770A4F31@rain.org> I got this URL for an article in Scientific American that seems appropriate for this group :). The last paragraph reads: "Evidently, the something-for-everyone model epitomized by Heathkit and the Amateur Scientist column can't compete anymore. Specialized sources and Internet newsgroups cater to each skill level. But much of the mentoring and serendipity that the diverse community of amateurs offered has been lost. It is hard not to regret its passing." http://www.sciam.com/2002/0502issue/0502scicit4.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 24 19:29:12 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Let's at least agree on what > > constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. > I'd say anything that runs windows primarily. *duck* To be defined as a "TOY", doesn't it have to be FUN? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 24 19:53:35 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > I *know* an S/390 wasn't meant as a toy. I DON'T CARE! Tell Santa that I WANT IT! From aek at spies.com Wed Apr 24 20:01:21 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: ISO a mid-70's Cipher tension-arm tape drive Message-ID: <200204250101.SAA24095@spies.com> Thanks to a pointer from Doug Q. I now have a brand new Cipher 7 track head assembly. I had thought this was just going to be the head, but it is the whole tape path, with a date code of Jan, 1976. Does anyone have a mid-70's Cipher 9 track that I could get to attach this to? My original thought was to put what I thought was just the head onto a 9 track transport, but since this is already aligned, it would be MUCH better to put it onto the drive it was designed for. I will be on the road for the next few weeks, so if you have one and are near SLC, Denver, St Louis, Dayton, Chicago, or Buffalo, I could pick it up. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 20:05:26 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: <10204250021.ZM4133@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Apr 24, 2002 11:21:56 pm" Message-ID: <200204250105.g3P15RNd020703@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Mine is approximately > > BSD 2.11 > BSD 4.3 > Vax/VMS 5.something > RT-11 > RSX-11M > RISC OS (Acorn, not MIPS RISCOS) > Acorn MOS > CP/M 2.2 > NeXTStep 3.3, OpenStep 4.2(?) > Solaris 2.3, Solaris 7 > Linux (Slackware, RedHat) > IRIX (5.3, 6.5) > Windows NT (OK, I know, but it's only used to decode or print Word docs) > > Those are the ones I've used recently. If you want to count the others > here, there's AIX, other Windows, OS/8, 7th Edition Unix, XXDP, and too > many more to remember. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Isn't it a bit much to call XXDP+ an OS. DECX-11 is closer... XXDP's pretty dumb. CP/M seemed more of a complete OS. I didn't include CP/M or Windows-xx... but I've done them and once was even trained on Novel 2.x and 3.x... Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 24 20:08:32 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <20020424204755.GB234291@uiuc.edu> from Dan Wright at "Apr 24, 2002 03:47:55 pm" Message-ID: <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Douglas H. Quebbeman said: > > > > IRIX in morning, sysadmins take warning... > > IRIX at night, hacker's delight. > > Heheh. I run a bunch of IRIX machines used for scientific computing :) It's > really not so bad, if you ignore the more horrifying examples of > brain-deadness (what? 16 CDs for an OS install?!...) > > > > > > > > > -dq > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) What I've heard is a very, VERY loose security profile for the default install... hack proof IRIX is possible with a good admin, but the default load is far from secure. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 20:20:33 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <004d01c1ebf7$65bb2ea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > >Computers of the '80's had mass storage. Video toys did not. That's why I > >refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage interfaces as > >toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. Later on, > >that was no longer a valid basis for classifying them, since it simply became > >cheaper to put the mass storage interface inside the box. In the '80's, toy > >vendors wanted you to buy small, at an inflated price, and then buy small > >again, also at an inflated price. Computer makers had to compete with one > >another, while game/toy vendors didn't have to compete with computer makers. > > Plenty of people couldn't afford what you consider a computer > and had their first experience with computers using what you deem as > 'toys'. I doubt that early user's of the Atari, Commodore, TRS-80 or > Sinclair machines would appreciate that label though. Nor did > everyone have either the ability or desire to write major portions of > the OS to get into the S-100 bus boxes, even if they could afford > them. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 24 20:38:34 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Quadram drivers? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020424213834.00810410@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm working on restoring an old 64k IBM PC and I'm putting a Quadram card in it but my driver files are corrupted. Can someone send me a copy of the files? Thanks, Joe From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 20:50:26 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:07 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > >Computers of the '80's had mass storage. Video toys did not. That's why I > >refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage interfaces as > >toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. Later on, > >that was no longer a valid basis for classifying them, since it simply became > >cheaper to put the mass storage interface inside the box. In the '80's, toy > >vendors wanted you to buy small, at an inflated price, and then buy small > >again, also at an inflated price. Computer makers had to compete with one > >another, while game/toy vendors didn't have to compete with computer makers. > > Plenty of people couldn't afford what you consider a computer > and had their first experience with computers using what you deem as > 'toys'. I make the distinction thus: In the early days, 1980 and earlier, people got their low-end computers, e.g. Commodore Pet, TRS-80, minimally equipped APPLE, etc, into the house under the guise of being able to do useful works with respect to the household ... generically referred to as "balancing the checkbook" but not limited to that. They were seldom used for that. They were tools for self-amusement/abuse, often leading to increased drinking, smoking, cursing, and profuse consumption of potato chips, coffee, cola, or whatever. These things were, functionally, computers, though they really were toys for the technically inclined, and those who wished they were. If they ended up as computers, they consisted of various boxes on the table, often taking up the entire surface of a door from the lumber yard, on two saw-horses. Later on, a wide range of video toys became available. These enabled the kids, equipped with an old TV set and an RF modulator, to play various on-screen games which amused the kids for a few days or even a week. They were smuggled into the household under the guise of providing amusement/education for the kids. With the expenditure of vast sums of money, one ended up with pretty much what one would end up with following the path above, spending probably about the same amount of money, overall, yet they still really were toys. For whom? Well, that's going to depend on who's asking. If they ended up as computers, they consisted of various boxes on the table, often taking up the entire surface of a door from the lumber yard, on two saw-horses. If one wanted a computer, and didn't have to fool anyone about what it was, or why it was being acquired, one bought a computer. It cost about the same amount as the stuff in the two paragraps above, but it was integrated such that it would function from day 1 as a computer. Often it was an S-100 box, in which case one had to spend an hour or two with the BIOS configuration, and, if one had a lot of I/O, that could grow into a few weeks of evenings and weekends. Normally, one bought a controller and CPU board from the same vendor, and the CPU board often had the console port on it. These were intended for use with a serial terminal, however, and not with memory-mapped video. In some cases, you bought a video board, e.g. the SD Systems VDB8024 or whatever it was called (I've got one, but I've never used it.) together with the SD systems CPU (SBC100, SBC200, or whatever) and the SD Versafloppy I, II, III or whatever. This was accompanied with a BIOS capable of running the hardware on those boards, together with a fresh, clean copy of CP/M 2.2. If you had additional hardware, you had to write a BIOS extension that would do the work, which could be tricky but generally wasn't unless you had TPA size problems. For me, the progression was as follows. Open the box. Open the S-100 mainframe. Open the individual card boxes, extract the cards and plug them into the mainframe. Open the carton the in which the FDD enclosure traveled. Extract the enclosure, insert the 8" floppy drives. Attach the cables to their respective sockets, at each end, attach power cables, power on the Terminal, power up the S-100 box, Power up the FDD's, insert the boot disk, watch the lights bling, ... WHAT? no display? ... oh yeah... attach the serial cable to the terminal. repeat the process... and 64k CP/M 2.2 is booted. Total elapsed time, 4 weeks of shopping, 1 week for shipping, 1.5 hours fiddling with boxes, cables, enclosures, etc. 45 seconds to boot the 1st time. ... done... Cost? well, the two Mistubishi 8" DSDD drives cost $479 each, the terminal cost $753, shipped the CCS hardware, including CPU, FDD, 64KB DRAM, 4-additional serial port card, 4 parallel in + 4 parallel out card, mainframe, FD box (the one I sent you) $1479, I think. I don't remember what the shipping cost was, but that was in '79. Later the next year I attached an ST-506 drive. Until the hard disk became a project, the only code I had to write was a printer handler for a daisywheel, which meant writing an x-on/x-off handler for one of the serial ports. That might have taken an hour or two. I later got a dot-matrix parallel printer, so that needed a simple driver to manage the strobe an busy lines. Also not very challenging. >I doubt that early users of the Atari, Commodore, TRS-80 or > Sinclair machines would appreciate that label though. Nor did > everyone have either the ability or desire to write major portions of > the OS to get into the S-100 bus boxes, even if they could afford > them. > It's not a pejorative, it's just a distinction. From dquebbeman at acm.org Wed Apr 24 20:50:29 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> >> I got this URL for an article in Scientific American that seems > appropriate for this group :). The last paragraph reads: > > "Evidently, the something-for-everyone model epitomized by Heathkit and > the Amateur Scientist column can't compete anymore. Specialized sources > and Internet newsgroups cater to each skill level. But much of the > mentoring and serendipity that the diverse community of amateurs offered > has been lost. It is hard not to regret its passing." Well, I didn't know this about Edmund Scientific. Crap. I've been looking for the older catalogs, now even the more recent ones I've got will become collectable unobtainium. Where will I buy water wetter? Where will I buy Nitonol wire? Where will I buy flock paper? Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? and so on... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 24 20:51:25 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: FREE STUFF! (Well almost) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020424215125.0081add0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I spotted this in the CPM news-group. It looks like a good deal for somebody. From: Gerald Pine X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Subject: Liquidating collection of CPM (and some other) machines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.253.40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1019533029 ST000 32.101.253.40 (Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:37:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:37:09 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDCAOXW[B^LX@JJDM^P@VZ\LPCXLLBWLOOAFQATJUZ]CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBLO^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCPBDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 03:37:09 GMT Xref: cyclone.tampabay.rr.com comp.os.cpm:20184 Hello, I have sold cpm machines from my collection to several of you in the past. I am finally running out of time to disperse my collection of machines before my house is officially sold to its new owners. The machines are in La Grange, Illinois, a southwest suburb of Chicago. My wife is going to include whatever is not left in a garage sale that she is holding next Saturday (the 27th or whatever date is a Saturday about then--no calendar in front of me). If someone can pick up the machines before then, or have a friend pick them up, they can be had for a VERY attractive price. In fact, we'll let you name what you think is reasonable. The more you take, the cheaper the better we'll like it. I don't want to dumpster these if I can avoid it, and I doubt that the local thrift store will be interested in them. Among what I have are: Multiple Osborne I's --at least one I know is working. Some have developed glitches sitting around for the last few years, and I think that they could easily be made to work, but no guarantees. I do have at least boot disks for most, but you might have to sort through some diskettes to pick them out. Take them all and your job is easier. Multiple Xerox 820-II's: 1 dual 8-inch floppy, 8-inch hard drive; 1 dual 8-inch floppy. 1 dual 5 1/4 inch floppy; some home made 8-inch drive cabinets. Have software (much) for these, and even have one pretty complete set of manuals and original diskettes, including a technical manual, CPM and operating manuals of various types, and MS-DOS manual, a CPM-86 manual, a graphics manual, wordstar, and probably some that I'm not remembering. I'd like to get a few bucks for the manuals especially. A Sanyo MBC-1000(?) not sure of the number, but it is a single floppy drive Z80 machine with boot disks and some software that I've transferred. Almost new condition. An Altos 580 and an Altos 8000: The 580 is in fine working condition with CPM and MPM system disks and some software for CPM that I've transferred from other formats. The 8000 needs a new power supply. A Mac LC-II. Machine was working, but keyboard stopped responding except for click noise. Haven't had time to diagnose it. A Data General 1 portable MS-DOS machine (8086 or 8088, not sure which). Works and comes with expansion docking station and external 5 1/4 inch drive. No software for docking station, unfortunately. A Vic 20 with lots of goodies. A TI-99. Not sure what;s with it. A Columbia PC, PC compatible luggable, similar to Compaq original portables. A IBM XT with hard drive and CGA monitor. 4 Televideo terminals, 3 925's and a 950. Also one copy each of service manuals and several operating manuals. A Sperry terminal. An Apple IIc with color and monochrome monitors and lots of software. Wordstar 4 for CPM and for MS-DOS in original boxes. SuperCalcII for Osborne. Lots more software, getting too tired to list. Send me your email address and I'll give you details about where it is and how to arrange to see it. Please help me to keep from dumpstering this. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to pack and ship it, so local pickups only. Gerald Pine From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 20:52:15 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <005701c1ebfb$d39599c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Whatever debate there may be about the qualification of a piece of DEC hardware as a computer, the price alone was sufficient to remove any suspicion that it was a toy. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to one > > intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface is > > external. > > Jeez, Dick. I can't believe you dragged me back into this. Where did > you find that little tidbit of inductive logic? > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > since they have no internal mass storage. Do I think that was a great > design? No. Did _anyone_ _ever_ mistake them for a toy? Get a grip. > No matter whether or not you _like_ those DECstations, or a score of > other application-oriented computers that had external-storage-only > designs, that statement is just ludicrous. > > Given the price of storage in the timeframe you're discussing, the > capacity to share disks and drives between computers without dismantling > the machine was a very good idea. > > > An easy way to spot a Microsoft/Intel patsy is his tendency to present > his own [generally incredibly narrow] viewpoint as immutable fact. > > Doc > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 20:59:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <005d01c1ebfc$d167a0c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tapley" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:57 AM Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On April 21, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >BTW, when the NEXT boxes first came out, we had a few of them sitting around > >for people to look at and play with. I personally was not impressed. They > >were EXTREMELY low on gigaflops per picobuck and, aside from the OS, I don't > >remember any applications that didn't have the same look and feel as a small > >mono-MAC costing ~1/10 as much. > > Finally gored my ox - but it's on-topic! Yee-hah. > > Nice things created on NeXT systems: > I never said things couldn't be done on the NeXT. They just hadn't been done yet when we, at Martin Marietta, got the ones we had for evaluation. There wasn't anything much to run on them (yet). Other than the empty desktop, they looked pretty much like the thousands of MAC's we had sitting around. Being able to execute no-op's doesn't impress anyone. > > * the WWW (or rather the html protocol underlying it) by Tim Berners Lee > (sic?). > > * Mathematica - though probably is not useful to the work you do, it's > indispensable to some of mine. > I've probably got similar tools, > > * Zilla, the fore-runner of most of the distributed-computing, > grid-computing, commodity CPU projects buzzwording around today. > Distributed as an example application on NeXT 3.3 and used to crack several > outstanding mathematical compute-intensive problems. > > * Attached sound and graphics files in email. Hmm, maybe this is not good. > > Basically, a lot of the computing technologies you now rely on first > appeared on NeXT systems. They may not have impressed you then, but they > should now. > Until I looked at the one in the thrift store, I hadn't seen a running NeXT since '89. > > You are right about the Flops rating - that was only a bit higher than > Macs/PC's and well behind Sparc's, Alphas, etc. But Flops/dollar is not the > best metric of a general-purpose computer. If you think it is, buy yourself > a used (Sony) PS/2 and we'll all be happier. For many kinds of work, > developer time to a working solution is the dominant metric, and NeXT was > very near the good end of that scale. > Did they have Sparcs, Alphas, etc, in '89? > > >The problem with these machines, as borne out by the market, is that they > >weren't what the home user wanted. > > Quite right - the home user wanted applications, rather than the ability to > develop applications, and the corporate user wanted Flops - which meant > Suns and Alphas. There were not enough developers to float the market for > the hardware. But note, the NeXT company did *not* fail - it successfully > moved its software to Sun, PA-Risc, and x86 platforms, where it maintained > a serious business niche until it eventually was bought out by a higher > volume hardware player - Apple. The same software is now the > second-best-selling (? am I right in claiming this?) OS on the planet. > > There's a NeXT on my desk at work right now, running Mathematica and perl > tasks, websurfing, backing up my portable .... its utility (to me) exceeds > that of any Windows machine I've seen. > If they'd been packaged/bundled differently and priced lower, back when they came out, they' probably still be significant today, but they weren't. > > Count me in with James Rice - if you see a working NeXT of any sort under > $20 or so, and *particularly* if you see a cube hooked up to a color > display, I'd take it most kindly if you'd notify me, or at least someone on > the list. It ain't junk to everyone. Best contact for me is at the above > email address. > Gee ... I thought I did that ... > > - Mark > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 21:00:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3CC6E750.B752314E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006701c1ebfc$f885f8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It may be well to keep in mind that the Altair was certainly not designed to be a computer. Only the determination of a fanatic made it into one. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:11 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Plenty of people couldn't afford what you consider a computer > > and had their first experience with computers using what you deem as > > 'toys'. I doubt that early user's of the Atari, Commodore, TRS-80 or > > Sinclair machines would appreciate that label though. Nor did > > everyone have either the ability or desire to write major portions of > > the OS to get into the S-100 bus boxes, even if they could afford > > them. > Also development software was expensive too! > A SD floppy of 85k would permit a OS like Flex or CP/M but not much > more! > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Apr 24 21:27:34 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <005701c1ebfb$d39599c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 24, 2 07:52:15 pm" Message-ID: <200204250227.TAA21860@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Whatever debate there may be about the qualification of a piece of DEC > hardware as a computer, the price alone was sufficient to remove any suspicion > that it was a toy. Ah, I get it. The PCjr wasn't a toy either, then. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- LET'S GO FORWARD ... INTO THE PAST! ---------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Apr 24 21:30:42 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Apr 24, 2 05:53:35 pm" Message-ID: <200204250230.TAA21890@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I *know* an S/390 wasn't meant as a toy. > > I DON'T CARE! Tell Santa that I WANT IT! In other news, Santa was delayed at least two days due to recuperation from a hernia incurred while delivering a mysterious gift. Mr. Claus, of the North Pole, is expected to make a full recovery. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When relatives are outlawed, only outlaws will have inlaws. ---------------- From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Apr 24 22:01:26 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <20020425030126.72259.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> I don't know if this is true. In the last five years, I've found projects and parts I would never have dared to imagine doing or owning, as a result of the Internet and Google. I lived in a major city as a kid, and even its large library was nothing compared to an Internet account and a used $200 PC. I like to point out that Issac Asimov imagined that people would have a terminal in their homes from which all information would be accessible. But his books were generally written as though they were hundreds of years in the future. This is better, and this is right now. Collaboration across great distances is easy, and projects can be done by virtual groups - like the one I've read about in this group reconstructing source code from an AIM-65. I didn't even KNOW anyone in my city interested in things I was interested in, and I wouldn't have known how to find them anyway if there were any. I do miss the "Amateur Scientist" atricles in Scientific American. The projects often had real scienfic merit, were all absolutely ingeniously simple, and were occasionally mind-bogglingly dangerous, i.e., "fun". I built an infrared laser in high school from one of those articles so powerful I took it apart 1/2 hour after finishing it! Invisible, and capable of shattering glass while reflecting of off surfaces that didn't seem to be reflective. Wow! As far as the items listed at the bottom of the article, I have one word to say: Google. I found all of this stuff in 2 minutes 20 seconds, on a dialup - and several sources to choose from. Still, I do wish that there was a place for the "generalist" to go on the Internet. What the Internet needs is an authoratative and often-updated list of common mechanical and electronic surplus supplies for hobbyists. --- "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > >> I got this URL for an article in Scientific > American that seems > > appropriate for this group :). The last paragraph > reads: > > > > "Evidently, the something-for-everyone model > epitomized by Heathkit and > > the Amateur Scientist column can't compete > anymore. Specialized sources > > and Internet newsgroups cater to each skill level. > But much of the > > mentoring and serendipity that the diverse > community of amateurs offered > > has been lost. It is hard not to regret its > passing." > > Well, I didn't know this about Edmund Scientific. > Crap. I've > been looking for the older catalogs, now even the > more recent > ones I've got will become collectable unobtainium. > > Where will I buy water wetter? > Where will I buy Nitonol wire? > Where will I buy flock paper? > Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? > Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? > Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? > > and so on... > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 24 22:01:43 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <200204250301.g3P31pf62871@ns2.ezwind.net> >> > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to >> > one intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface >> > is external. >I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for machines that >have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface Woah... my PS/2 is a 'real' computer? It has internal storage (built in DVD drive, and 2 user upgradable RAM slots), AND has built in network interfaces (2 USB ports on the front which can be used for connecting 2 PS/2's together, and a proprietary expansion slot on the back for the recently released network/modem connector for connecting your PS/2 to the internet.. which I would classify as built in, since it connects to the single body unit, and was intended pretty much for this network box, and really is more of an optional part). Glad to know I didn't spend $300 on a toy. Oh... and the GameBoy is a real computer to. It has built in storage (game card slot), and built in networking (head to head port). I could probably go on with more examples... I could even narrow it down to ones that have built in floppy drives (to fade off the non "disk" drive concept, although I think claiming to need a floppy drive excludes an awful lot of other legit storage mediums, like all those systems that only use tape). There is a V-Tech kids learning "computer" that comes to mind that used 3.5" floppies (although, it might have lacked the required network port, but I think it had a serial port, but probably didn't support a "network" protocol). -chris From mhstein at canada.com Wed Apr 24 21:53:29 2002 From: mhstein at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <01C1EBE4.54ABCA60@on-tor-blr-a58-04-718.look.ca> >From: Doc > An easy way to spot a Microsoft/Intel patsy is his tendency to present > his own [generally incredibly narrow] viewpoint as immutable fact. > Doc -------- Well, the evidence of this latest waste of time & bandwidth seems to contradict that, since with one possible exception, all the people presenting those truly incredibly narrow viewpoints have been non-MS/Intel users. Despite being called morons, brain-damaged, biz'droid lusers, etc., with intelligence in the gutter, apparently those of us who do manage quite well to do our jobs & accomplish what we need/want using MS OSs & apps on PCs value our time more and respect diversity & other peoples' choices more than to get dragged into this childish & ridiculous name-calling 'discussion'. I for one am quite content to let other people use whatever hardware or software they like, are supplied with, can afford, are comfortable with, whatever, and when there are problems as there inevitably are with any hardware and software, I enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of getting past those problems, not to mention the income it provides. But it's reassuring that there are people out there who'd rather insult their clients/bosses or quit than work with MS/PC stuff; less competition and more opportunities for those of us who actually respect our clients and enjoy helping them and the organizations we work for accomplish their goals. And unlike some people on this list, Jeez, Dick. I can't believe you dragged me back into this. we don't all salivate whenever Richard rings his little bell. Hard to remember sometimes that the intelligent majority is silent at times like this (except for me, of course :-) mike From mhstein at canada.com Wed Apr 24 22:02:46 2002 From: mhstein at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's Message-ID: <01C1EBE4.58CBB2E0@on-tor-blr-a58-04-718.look.ca> EXCELLENT IDEA!!!! Maybe with time there could be systems for classic hardware, languages & applications as well. I've just about had it with the increasingly inane signal/noise ratio here and would very much welcome a place to just find or be a resource when I don't have the time or inclination to be amused or irritated. My C$0.02 worth. mike ---------------Original Message------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:53:13 -0500 From: "Jay West" Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's I would like to put up a problem tracking system for all classic OS's. This would be off the classiccmp.org website, where anyone could put in a problem they have run into From aek at spies.com Wed Apr 24 22:05:24 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Specifications Sought for 7-Track Tape Heads Message-ID: <200204250305.UAA04733@spies.com> > I'm seeking a source for the specifications for 7-track tape > heads. I'm thinking what I really need is just the mechanical/ > physical specifications... that leads me to the second part.. OK, a quick session with my calipers confirmed the spacing is the same as 7 track instrumentation recorder heads (which are weird two stack things with every other track on a separate head) http://jcs.mil/RCC/files/xappxd.pdf for details. from that spec: track width .050" +/- .005 track spacing .070" track tolerance +/- .002 track number 1 (reference) .000 2 .070 3 .140 4 .210 5 .280 6 .350 7 .420 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:10:42 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Coco (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response References: Message-ID: <000b01c1ec06$c8c076e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Repackaging is a lot of hassle, expensive, and seldom improves the functionality. That doesn't mean it NEVER is of benefit, but seldom. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: Coco (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > Yeah, I'm certain there was a serial port, but I can't tell you > > about it. It's been a while. > > Yes, it had a serial port. with a 4 pin DIN? It was clearly described in > their literature as being "RS-232". Unfortunately, that stood for "RADIO > SHACK 232". > > > > expand it to do something useful? > > No more or less so than any other computer. > Like any other computer, you can use it to keep track of notes, > receipts, appointments, etc. (all of which can usually be done as well, > or better, by a refrigerator door.) As a terminal or word processor, it > was badly limited by the screen configuration. > > Actually, there are applications that do 80x24 in some high-res > > video mode, for word processing and the like. I ran at least one > > on my CoCo1 with 64k of RAM. > > There were numerous fixes, some good, some bad. (such as 3 x 6 character > matrix to get more characters on the screen) > > > > ... see what I mean? You have to do so much to the thing > > > that RS sells you > > > that it takes up a whole tabletop just to get to what's in > > > the PC's box, and > > So? > Is your "Hi-Fi" ALSO all in one box? Or is it a group of separate > components? > > You're not capable of reboxing a computer? > A friend, and business associate, used to repackage computers into > Halliburton attache cases. He made a portable Coco with drives, 5" screen > (and connection for external), as well as a number of other models. > His "BMC-80" one piece portable CP/M machine was introduced (at my > booth) at the West Coast Computer Faire a day before Osborne's > introduction. That did not stop Adam from calling his "first and > only" even though he had already spent half an hour admiring ours before > his was introduced. That's all right. His booth had ~$50K of chrome and > black plexiglass; WE had cold beer (which repeatedly got us free ink in > Jerry Pournelle's column). > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:11:29 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <001901c1ec06$e4e8b760$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> In the case of a '360, the BUILDING was the enclosure. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage > > interfaces as > > toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. > > An amazingly strange and irrelevant distinction! > > Where was the mass storage interface of a 360 physically located? The > disk drives were NOT in the same box as the CPU. > > I sincerely doubt that putting the disk controller inside or outside the > CPU box has any significant effect on the Zuse number of the computer. > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:12:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb References: Message-ID: <001f01c1ec07$0d4f1fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have no idea who wrote the remark attributed to me in this quoted message, but I surely didn't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Finnegan" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:16 AM Subject: Re:linux in 6gb > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > Rumor has it that James B. DiGriz may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... it's fully Linux certified as > > > > well...] > > > > 6G... I get OS/2, Win3.1, Lotus SmartSuite, PC Dos7, and Linux or FreeBSD and > > X and OpenOffice in 4gb without disk compression on an IBM 760XL laptop. > > > > Linux is all in how you install it. Default's a pig. (Especially Mandrake > > and Redhat...) > > Gee, Dick, then I have no idea on how I got Linux installed on this 200M > HDD in my 486 here. Especially considering that 16M of that is swap > space. Amazingly enough I still have about 60M free space... > > For a more suitable install, I can easily install everything I really use > (between X windows and a few apps, gaim for IM, kernel source so I can > recompile my kernel, gcc and related stuff) in 1G or less of space. > > If you're tight on space, just don't use anything with a nifty graphical > installer... those distros tend to bloat out more than things like Debian > or Slackware (or *BSD). > > -- Pat > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:13:50 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <002201c1eba3$c7131e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <005f01c1ebb9$834b1ea0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <002b01c1ec07$38c8e260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:57 AM Subject: Re: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > [From: Richard Erlacher > [Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 11:21 AM > > Hmmmm, an 10kilobyte post. Must've lost another argument.... > > > > John A. > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:16:25 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <003d01c1ec07$9576c680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Where a mainframe's concerned, the building's the enclosure. Nobody would confuse a mainframe costing billions to purchase and maintain over years, a toy. Not even I would go that far. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar the POWERful" To: "Doc" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to one > > > intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface is > > > external. > > > > Jeez, Dick. I can't believe you dragged me back into this. Where > > did you find that little tidbit of inductive logic? > > > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products > > intended for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a > > computer", since they have no internal mass storage. Do I think that > > was a great design? No. Did _anyone_ _ever_ mistake them for a toy? > > Get a grip. No matter whether or not you _like_ those DECstations, or > > a score of other application-oriented computers that had > > external-storage-only designs, that statement is just ludicrous. > > The VAST majority of mainframes have only external disk storage. I don't > think *anyone* would confuse an ES/9000 9221 with a toy. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:18:44 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020424193414.9959.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004901c1ec07$e84a6380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It depends on where you put the boundary of the enclosure. In the case of the VAXen we had once upon a time, since the computer occupied multiple racks, and the PSU's/UPS' occupied multiple racks, the building was the enclosure. Nothing from DEC could be considered inexpensive to be a toy, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 1:34 PM Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- Doc wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to > > > one intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface > > > is external. > > > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > > since they have no internal mass storage. > > I'm not so sure I understand what Dick is asserting here... If he means > "no internal mass storage; all disks external", I think we can all come up > with a raft of exceptions (from my own collection, DECMate I, VAX-11/750, > PDP-11/70, VAX 8200, PDP-8/L, MINC-11... hardly computers for the "toy > market"). One might argue that mini-computers would not be confused > with toys, but from a form-factor standpoint, A DECmate-I CPU, for example, > is smaller than a TRS-80 Model III. A MINC-11 isn't particularly large > compared to a full-tower case (and the BA32 that contains is about the > same size; the 42" rack just has room for cables; no active components). > > If he means "no internal mass storage interface", he might have something > of a point. Ignoring audio cassette, I can think of few computers more > complicated than a traditional "single-board" computer that lack an in- > cabinet mass storage interface. The PET, VIC-20 and C-64 all interface > to disks (floppy _and_ fixed (D9060/D9090 for the PET, anyway)) without > any sort of hardware or ROM pgrade, but the disk is external. The ZX-80- > family lacks any sort of internal disk interface. The Elf, the VIP, the > KIM, SYM, AIM-65, etc., all SBCs and all lacking disk interfaces. Non- > Zorro-equipped Amigas (A1000, A500, A500+) have floppy but not hard disk > interfaces in-box, but the A600 and A1200 have 44-pin internal IDE ports. > Does that make the A500 a toy, but not the A600? > > I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for machines that > have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface (if > any; I'll bend and accept a serial port as a network interface if it runs > some network protocol - SLIP, PPP, LocalTalk, DDCMP...) I'm not sure > how to classify single-boards, though. By the nature of them being > simplistic in design and user-interface, they appeal to the electronics > hobby market more than the home/kids market. Kids wanted a TI-99/4 or > a VIC-20 or a C-64. Kids were not so enthusiastic about a Z-80 starter > kit (which happens to have two S-100 slots and an intergral EPROM > burner) or a KIM-1 or a COSMAC Elf. > > Mind you, I love toy computers. They have been fun and profitable for > me. Others, though, need that "bittybox" label to glorify whatever > they like at the expense of others. Let's at least agree on what > constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. > > Meanwhile... Back To The Toys! > > -ethan > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 24 22:20:34 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <200204250320.g3P3Kbf63115@ns2.ezwind.net> >my PS/2 is a 'real' computer? err... change all my refs of PS/2 to PS2 (ie: Sony Playstation 2). Sorry, spent the day looking at IBM PS/2's (ie: the computer), so the slash just jumped its way in there. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:22:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <006b01c1ec08$7823f340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hey! I did say the mass storage interface had to be internal to the "computer" and not necessarily the mass storage devices. Now, there can be varying definitions as to what internal means. If it's a mainframe, then the campus is the enclosure, while if it's a desktop, it's pretty obvious what that is. Besides, though I didn't originally point this out, some of you guys have, as toys, some of those very machines that you're pointing out aren't really toys. Are you guys trying to have it both ways? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:48 PM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > > > If he means "no internal mass storage interface", he might > > ...but what is "internal?" If the storage interface is in > a separate rack, does that make the machine a toy? > > After that, what is a "storage interface?" A common 'IDE' disk > will plug nearly directly into an ISA bus. Does that mean that > any system with an ISA bus could not be a "toy?" We could further > assume that most busses could be adapted in similar ways to drive > mass storage devices, and claim that no computer with any bus which > could do this can be a toy. > > > have something > > of a point. Ignoring audio cassette, I can think of few > > computers more > > complicated than a traditional "single-board" computer that > > lack an in- > > cabinet mass storage interface. The PET, VIC-20 and C-64 all > > Well, again, which cabinet? > > > interfaces. Non- > > Zorro-equipped Amigas (A1000, A500, A500+) have floppy but > > not hard disk > > interfaces in-box, but the A600 and A1200 have 44-pin > > internal IDE ports. > > Does that make the A500 a toy, but not the A600? > > What about the Mac plus which had a SCSI interface, but Apple > discouraged its use (preferring, rather, that you plug your > hard drive into the floppy interface, IIRC)... > > > I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for > > machines that > > have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface (if > > any; I'll bend and accept a serial port as a network > > interface if it runs > > some network protocol - SLIP, PPP, LocalTalk, DDCMP...) I'm not sure > > how to classify single-boards, though. By the nature of them being > > Transputers might also be tricky. > > > Mind you, I love toy computers. They have been fun and profitable for > > me. Others, though, need that "bittybox" label to glorify whatever > > they like at the expense of others. Let's at least agree on what > > constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. > > I'd say anything that runs windows primarily. *duck* > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:24:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <008101c1ec08$c3f6a7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I keep coming back to the distinction between what the systems in question did as shipped by the mfg, vs. what they COULD be persuaded to do with the application of appropriate pressure. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > So just what is it that classifies the C64 as a "toy" computer ? When > > it was released, it was far more capable than the existant Apples, > > Ataris & Radio Shacks (& a damn sight cheaper too). > > Hmmm... Define 'far more capable'... While not wishing to flame the C64, > and while I certainly don't belive it was a 'toy computer', the Radio > Shack CoCo could run a multi-tasking (and even multi-user) operating > system with a good structured BASIC, a very nice Pascal compiler and a > not-too-bad C compiler. I've never seen a C64 do that (but I might well > be missing something -- I'll admit I was not really a Commodore person > back then). > > > > > Indeed, out of all the machines then in production, which one still in > > use now is still capable of (more or less) doing what modern machines > > can ? > > Hmmm.... PERQ 2? > > -tony > > From red at bears.org Wed Apr 24 22:26:02 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: Richard, I have some bad news for you... > In the early days, 1980 and earlier, people got their low-end computers, e.g. > Commodore Pet, TRS-80, minimally equipped APPLE, etc, into the house under the > guise of being able to do useful works with respect to the household ... > generically referred to as "balancing the checkbook" but not limited to that. > They were seldom used for that. They were tools for self-amusement/abuse, Today, in 2002, people get their low-end computers, e.g. e-Machines, Gateway, Dell, minimally equipped COMPAQ, etc, into the house under the guise of being able to do useful works with respect to the household ... generically referred to as "getting on the internet" but not limited to that. They are often used for just that, but few people notice that it's seldom anything close to 'useful'. They are tools for self-amusement/abuse. These things are, functionally, computers, though they are really consumer toys. > Later on, a wide range of video toys became available. These enabled the > kids, equipped with an old TV set and an RF modulator, to play various > on-screen games which amused the kids for a few days or even a week. They > were smuggled into the household under the guise of providing > amusement/education for the kids. With the expenditure of vast sums of money, > one ended up with pretty much what one would end up with following the path > above, spending probably about the same amount of money, overall, yet they > still really were toys. A small array of video toys are available. They enable the kids, equipped with an old TV set and an A/V cable, to play various on-screen games which amuse them for a few days or even a week. They are brought openly into the house (I guess at least this much has changed) under the guise of providing amusement/education for the kids. With the expendiuture of vast sums of money, one ended up with pretty much what one would end up with following the path above, spending probably about the same amount of money overall. > If one wanted a computer, and didn't have to fool anyone about what it was, or > why it was being acquired, one bought a computer. It cost about the same > amount as the stuff in the two paragraps above, but it was integrated such > that it would function from day 1 as a computer. Often it was an S-100 box, I have worse news: today, it's called a Macintosh. Before you argue with me, consider that nobody in their right mind would want to buy a computer with less than 10% market penetration, without a pretty compelling reason. I find that most Mac users I talk to have compelling reasons for owning Macs. People that want a PC will buy a PC. People that want a Mac will buy a Mac. People that want a computer will buy a PC (though IMO they would be better served with Macs, but that's solely my own opinion and you're not going to change it, so please don't try). On another note, I concede that Byte is not the best price guide, but it's the resource I had available. I'm still skeptical the difference was THAT great. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:26:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: anyone with an old national memory databook ? References: Message-ID: <008901c1ec08$ed3ee4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got several NS databooks but that's not an NS standard number. I'd say is't someone's stock number. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:49 PM Subject: Re: anyone with an old national memory databook ? > > > > I am looking for info on a National Semi 4916944-2 memory IC in > > a 16-pin 0.3" DIP package. I am assuming that it is some variant > > of the 4164, but am not sure. > > What's it out of? That doesn't look like a NatSemi number to me. Could it > be a 'house coded' number -- assigned by the company that made the > machine it's put in? HP did that a lot (but their RAMs tend to have > 1818-xxxx numbers) as did IBM and Xerox. > > -tony > > From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 24 22:28:35 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <200204250328.g3P3Scf63300@ns2.ezwind.net> >In the early days, 1980 and earlier, people got their low-end computers, e.g. >Commodore Pet, TRS-80, minimally equipped APPLE, etc, into the house under >the >guise of being able to do useful works with respect to the household ... >generically referred to as "balancing the checkbook" but not limited to that. >They were seldom used for that. They were tools for self-amusement/abuse, >often leading to increased drinking, smoking, cursing, and profuse >consumption >of potato chips, coffee, cola, or whatever. Um... do you per chance believe Apple is a satanic company because of 'Darwin'? I know I never increased my drinking, smoking, cursing and profuse consumption of potato chips, coffee, or cola because of playing games on an Apple II. I did however increase my use of "Whatever", but I blame that on the 70's. And I didn't start the self abuse for another few years.... hey, I was only 7... how young should I have started?!? -chris From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:28:07 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <008f01c1ec09$37a05600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Did they punt the 6847+SAM in the COCO3? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > I haven't looked at the insides of the COCO2 I've got sitting here, but I > > don't see any place for a FDD or a HDD. Are there serial ports anywhere that > > On the right hand side of the main PCB is an edge connector, officially > called the 'cartridge port'. Although originally designed for ROM > software cartridges, it's essentially the 6809 system bus, and you can > connect an FDC or HDC here (both were sold by Radio Shack, BTW) > > As for serial ports, there's a bit-banger built into the machine (it's > the 4 pin DIN socket on the back of the PCB). As a bitbanger, it's best > used for output only (to drive a serial printer, for example), but I used > OS-9 as a 2 user system with a 300 baud terminal connected there for a bit. > > More reasonably, you'd connect an 6850 or 6551 to the cartridge > connector. There was a Radio Shack cartridge to do this (also containing > a dumb terminal emulator in ROM). Hardware hackers built multiple serial > port cartridges, particularly if they ran OS-9 seriously. > > There's also a think called a Multi-Pak interface that connects up to 4 > cartridges at the same time. It was common to use one of these to connect > an FDC, HDC and serial cartridge to the CoCo. > > > I can use? How much R/W memory does it have? How do you expand it to do > > CoCo 1 : 4K, 16K, 32K (or 64K with simple mods) > CoCo 2 : 16K or 64K > CoCo 3 : 128K or 512K > > > something useful? > > > > ... see what I mean? You have to do so much to the thing that RS sells you > > that it takes up a whole tabletop just to get to what's in the PC's box, and > > Well, the fact you can buy it in sections is actually an advantage if you > can't afford it all at once. I bought the CoCo first, then the disk drive > and OS-9 about 6 months later. And I then built my own multi-pak > backplane and serial ports. > > And it's not impossible to repackage the CoCo into a PC-clone case. > Plenty of people did. > > > The worst you have to do with a PC, PDP11, or whatever computer you buy, is > > plug in what you want to use. > > Ditto with the CoCo if you bought all the Radio Shack hardware you > needed. Just plug the multi-pak into the CoCo, then plug in a disk > controller and serial port, etc. > > I ran OS-9 on my CoCo for many years. It was the first multiuser system I > owned, and I learnt a heck of a lot from it. And it cost me a lot less > than any PC clone at the time. > > > > > With the COCO, you're better off starting from a wirewrap panel and a bucket > > of parts, since the video on the COCO is not "up to snuff," i.e. 80x24 > > characters-capable. It uses that ridiculous 6847, IIRC, and even at 32 > > To be honest, I'd rather use OS-9 on a 6809 from a teletype than (say) > MS-DOS on an 8088 and a 80*24 video display. Video performance is not > something I care too much about on a _computer. In any case firstly you > could use an exernal video terminal with the CoCo under OS-9, And > secondly the CoCo 3 has an 80*25 text mode. > > -tony > > From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Apr 24 22:27:08 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 References: <20020423013515.82280.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CC7778C.D5B157B3@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > By the way, for myself, I would VERY much appreciate > > being in touch with all individuals who have a copy of the > > RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 so that we might exchange > > information about RT-11. Tim Shoppa felt that he might > > be violating privacy concerns if he made the names, of those > > who ordered the CD, available. > I can appreciate Tim's discretion, but I don't mind it being known > that I ordered a copy from him. Jerome Fine replies: Is that OK just for myself or among others who are like minded? If the latter, then RT-11 announcements will be sent to all 4 or 5 of you at the same time - makes it easier. I think Tim said he sold about 40 of the RT-11 Freeware CD, so many more names to go. > As I stated recently, I used to make my living with RT-11, but am > now merely a hobbyist. I happen to have a real distro of v5.3 on RX50 > media from the old days, plus some v4.x stuff on RK05 cartridge and > probably some (original) 2.x stuff on RX01. My legal and licensed version is more recent. I also acquired some RK05 packs with old RT-11 distributions that I hope to make available as soon as I can find a controller for a Qbus or someone with both a working RK05 and something more recent such as an RL02. From the RL02, the final step is to make copies available via a CD. > > PLUS, as for TSX-PLUS, I am going to try again to knock > > at the door of S&H to see what they may consider for > > hobby users. > Thank you. No promises, but I will try again soon! At this point, I also hope to have a user controlled and contributed "Classiccmp RT-11 Bug List" as opposed http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/ to the secret "Mentec RT-11 Bug List". The first two bugs are very benign - (a) MACRO.SAV does not have 4 digit years and (b) The reported "Elapsed time" uses "ticks" after the decimal point rather than hundredths of a second. Although these two bugs are not show stoppers, and perhaps because they are not show stoppers, I can't see Mentec being very upset. And most users will not care either. But once it becomes established that users do have their own bug list, then I am hoping that there will be contributions. At this point, I am proceeding on the assumption that Mentec will likely take many more years - if ever - to allow even V5.06 of RT-11 to be hobby, let alone V5.07 of RT-11. BUT, since V5.03 of RT-11 is sufficient to do almost everything that is done under V5.07, it should not be difficult to keep interest up (if it can be done at all) using just V5.03 at this time. If you have any contributions for the bug list, that would be extremely helpful. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:34:51 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <00a101c1ec0a$2873f280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> As I've said before, I think not, since the building was the enclosure for those systems that had external racks for some of their hardware. I've never maintained that the drives had to be in the same box, but only that the interface did. I think if you look at the way the market diverged and later converged again, with, in some cases, several separately powered boxes, in others, multiple boxes powered from the host, it's pretty clear that some systems were intended to be brought into the household bit-by-bit as one could afford them or as one realized he couldn't do without them. The difference was that you needed, generally to keep an interface in the cardcage with the CPU, more or less. In those systems that extended their I/O via channels in separate racks, I hardly think there's any confusion about who the intended user was or what the purpose was. Lots of folks made a computer out of an Atari box that originally came into the house as a video toy for the kids. Lots of computers were used to play games. The boundaries aren't really clear. However, in general, if it came with a hard disk inside, it probably wasn't a video game. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to one > > intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface is > > external. > > > So by your (as ever, broken) defintion, the PDP11, PDP8, Philips P800 > series, etc are all 'intended for the toy market'? This is getting > totally stupid. > > What about the HP71? This is a pocket computer (that can take up to 512K > of memory (ROM + RAM) and which has a very nice built-in BASIC with > optional FORTH and Assembler) with an _optional_ HPIL interface module. > You cna add a disk drive, digital tape drive, RS232 port, HPIB port, > parallel port, video display, A4 plotter, inkjet printer, etc, etc, etc > (all at the same time I might add). It's also one of the few pocket > computers where you can interlink half a dozen of them and transfer files > between them (yes, there's a proper filing system with named files for > data in the machine's RAM). But as the disk drive is external and the > interface a plug-in cartridge, presumably it's 'intended for the toy > market' ? > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:38:30 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204250227.TAA21860@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00bb01c1ec0a$ab6f22e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, not if you asked the vendor. If it was a toy, it wasn't a very good one. If it wasn't, it would surely surprise the kids who played with 'em in school. I'm not sure what answer you'd have gotten from Atari about some of their earlier machines, had you asked whether they were toys. Likewise the low-end Commodores. Nevertheless, it was up to the owner to decide what his intentions were. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 8:27 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > Whatever debate there may be about the qualification of a piece of DEC > > hardware as a computer, the price alone was sufficient to remove any suspicion > > that it was a toy. > > Ah, I get it. The PCjr wasn't a toy either, then. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- LET'S GO FORWARD ... INTO THE PAST! ---------------------------------------- > > From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Apr 24 22:40:51 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: FREE STUFF! (Well almost) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020424215125.0081add0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c1ec0a$ff2d1fe0$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I'd love to get in on some of that action but he's not shipping and I'm in CA. Doh! Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:51 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: FREE STUFF! (Well almost) I spotted this in the CPM news-group. It looks like a good deal for somebody. From: Gerald Pine X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Subject: Liquidating collection of CPM (and some other) machines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.253.40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1019533029 ST000 32.101.253.40 (Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:37:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:37:09 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDCAOXW[B^LX@JJDM^P@VZ\LPCXLLBWLOOAFQATJUZ]CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBL O^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCP BDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 03:37:09 GMT Xref: cyclone.tampabay.rr.com comp.os.cpm:20184 Hello, I have sold cpm machines from my collection to several of you in the past. I am finally running out of time to disperse my collection of machines before my house is officially sold to its new owners. The machines are in La Grange, Illinois, a southwest suburb of Chicago. My wife is going to include whatever is not left in a garage sale that she is holding next Saturday (the 27th or whatever date is a Saturday about then--no calendar in front of me). If someone can pick up the machines before then, or have a friend pick them up, they can be had for a VERY attractive price. In fact, we'll let you name what you think is reasonable. The more you take, the cheaper the better we'll like it. I don't want to dumpster these if I can avoid it, and I doubt that the local thrift store will be interested in them. Among what I have are: Multiple Osborne I's --at least one I know is working. Some have developed glitches sitting around for the last few years, and I think that they could easily be made to work, but no guarantees. I do have at least boot disks for most, but you might have to sort through some diskettes to pick them out. Take them all and your job is easier. Multiple Xerox 820-II's: 1 dual 8-inch floppy, 8-inch hard drive; 1 dual 8-inch floppy. 1 dual 5 1/4 inch floppy; some home made 8-inch drive cabinets. Have software (much) for these, and even have one pretty complete set of manuals and original diskettes, including a technical manual, CPM and operating manuals of various types, and MS-DOS manual, a CPM-86 manual, a graphics manual, wordstar, and probably some that I'm not remembering. I'd like to get a few bucks for the manuals especially. A Sanyo MBC-1000(?) not sure of the number, but it is a single floppy drive Z80 machine with boot disks and some software that I've transferred. Almost new condition. An Altos 580 and an Altos 8000: The 580 is in fine working condition with CPM and MPM system disks and some software for CPM that I've transferred from other formats. The 8000 needs a new power supply. A Mac LC-II. Machine was working, but keyboard stopped responding except for click noise. Haven't had time to diagnose it. A Data General 1 portable MS-DOS machine (8086 or 8088, not sure which). Works and comes with expansion docking station and external 5 1/4 inch drive. No software for docking station, unfortunately. A Vic 20 with lots of goodies. A TI-99. Not sure what;s with it. A Columbia PC, PC compatible luggable, similar to Compaq original portables. A IBM XT with hard drive and CGA monitor. 4 Televideo terminals, 3 925's and a 950. Also one copy each of service manuals and several operating manuals. A Sperry terminal. An Apple IIc with color and monochrome monitors and lots of software. Wordstar 4 for CPM and for MS-DOS in original boxes. SuperCalcII for Osborne. Lots more software, getting too tired to list. Send me your email address and I'll give you details about where it is and how to arrange to see it. Please help me to keep from dumpstering this. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to pack and ship it, so local pickups only. Gerald Pine From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 22:41:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <200204250301.g3P31pf62871@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <00c301c1ec0b$05e3dfe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Keep the timeframe in mind ... in the '80's I think the generalization I made holds up pretty well. As hardware became denser, things changed. Nowadays, those old big-iron machines are all either toys or scrap, after all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: Re: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > >> > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to > >> > one intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface > >> > is external. > > >I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for machines that > >have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface > > Woah... my PS/2 is a 'real' computer? > > It has internal storage (built in DVD drive, and 2 user upgradable RAM > slots), AND has built in network interfaces (2 USB ports on the front > which can be used for connecting 2 PS/2's together, and a proprietary > expansion slot on the back for the recently released network/modem > connector for connecting your PS/2 to the internet.. which I would > classify as built in, since it connects to the single body unit, and was > intended pretty much for this network box, and really is more of an > optional part). > > Glad to know I didn't spend $300 on a toy. > > > Oh... and the GameBoy is a real computer to. It has built in storage > (game card slot), and built in networking (head to head port). > > I could probably go on with more examples... I could even narrow it down > to ones that have built in floppy drives (to fade off the non "disk" > drive concept, although I think claiming to need a floppy drive excludes > an awful lot of other legit storage mediums, like all those systems that > only use tape). There is a V-Tech kids learning "computer" that comes to > mind that used 3.5" floppies (although, it might have lacked the required > network port, but I think it had a serial port, but probably didn't > support a "network" protocol). > > -chris > > > > From mythtech at mac.com Wed Apr 24 22:50:44 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <200204250350.g3P3olf63761@ns2.ezwind.net> >The same software is now the >second-best-selling (? am I right in claiming this?) OS on the planet. Actually, recent reports say that more copies of OS X are selling off the retail shelves than Win XP... so looking at best *SELLING* OS, one might argue it is the #1 best seller. (of course, XP beats it out by a long shot when looking at most copies moved when included in bundles with the computer... but again, one could argue it is the computer you are buying then, and not the OS) -chris From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 22:58:14 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > see below, plz. No, thank you. Peace... Sridhar From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Wed Apr 24 22:57:18 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: RT11 & RSX cd images - additional site References: <015801c1eba4$dec04130$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CC77E9E.6510C759@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > I noticed that downloads of the ISO images for RT11 & RSX freeware from Tim > Shoppa's website are slowwwwwwwww. Jerome Fine replies: I found that the best time was at night when I was able to obtain a speed of about 30 KBytes per second. At that rate, each download took about 12 hours. Also, MD5SUMS is important so that anyone who does the download can verify the image that they have. If you are using Windows 98, a version of MD5.EXE is available at: http://www.fourmilab.ch/md5/ click on the md5.zip link. Finally, for those who don't have a high speed line or a CDROM burner, I am willing to copy them for you. A new estimate of the cost will be about $ US 4 / $ US 6 / $ US 8 for ONE / TWO / THREE CDs. It turns out that the mailer cartons are expensive when purchased in small quantities and only about 4 people have expressed an interest. The price includes postage from Canada and is an estimate until I check for sure at the post office. The old price did not include postage and the mailer cost was underestimated. If you have high speed internet access and a CD burner, them it will be much faster to do it yourself. However, if you already have the RT-11 Freeware CD from Tim Shoppa, I would like to get in touch since future RT-11 developments might change the current picture. Plus, I am an RT-11 addict and I like to help other RT-11 users. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 23:02:29 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204250301.g3P31pf62871@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > >> > An easy way to spot a product intended for the toy market as opposed to > >> > one intended to be seen as a computer, is that the disk drive interface > >> > is external. > > >I would propose that the label "toy" might be suitable for machines that > >have external disk controllers _and_ an external network interface > > Woah... my PS/2 is a 'real' computer? I would definitely call at least *some* PS/2's real computers. Like the 9595. It's built like a tank, and is rock-solid stable. Also, I have held vehicles aloft with them. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 23:01:54 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <008f01c1ec09$37a05600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC77FB2.EB8CA49@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I can use? How much R/W memory does it have? How do you expand it to do > > > > CoCo 1 : 4K, 16K, 32K (or 64K with simple mods) > > CoCo 2 : 16K or 64K > > CoCo 3 : 128K or 512K Well modern Coco Hackers have got several meg on the coco 3 and ide drives and real serial ports too. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vance at ikickass.org Wed Apr 24 23:07:14 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <00c301c1ec0b$05e3dfe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Keep the timeframe in mind ... in the '80's I think the generalization > I made holds up pretty well. As hardware became denser, things > changed. > > Nowadays, those old big-iron machines are all either toys or scrap, > after all. Bear in mind that mainframes stay in production for 20+ years. And 20+ year old mainframes go into production with a secondary customer regularly. IBM is selling as much big iron as they can produce. They are selling more big iron now, then they ever did in their heyday. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 24 23:11:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <200204250320.g3P3Kbf63115@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000f01c1ec0f$3c5a4ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Doesn't the notion of a time line mean anything to you? In the 20 years since the period to which I was referring things have changed considerably since the density of hardware has increased so much. It makes little sense for vendors to sell things separately and become huge and difficult to handle just to sell a little more plastic, when they really don't need to be bigger than a cigar box. The grandkids have Playstations. Adults might want 'em too, since some of the games are pretty slick. I don't relate to that, myself, but I know lots of folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't imagine why one would want to. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 9:20 PM Subject: Re: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > >my PS/2 is a 'real' computer? > > err... change all my refs of PS/2 to PS2 (ie: Sony Playstation 2). Sorry, > spent the day looking at IBM PS/2's (ie: the computer), so the slash just > jumped its way in there. > > -chris > > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 24 23:23:34 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <005d01c1ebfc$d167a0c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: SNIP---------------------------------------------- > > > > You are right about the Flops rating - that was only a bit higher than > > Macs/PC's and well behind Sparc's, Alphas, etc. But Flops/dollar is not the > > best metric of a general-purpose computer. If you think it is, buy yourself > > a used (Sony) PS/2 and we'll all be happier. For many kinds of work, > > developer time to a working solution is the dominant metric, and NeXT was > > very near the good end of that scale. > > > Did they have Sparcs, Alphas, etc, in '89? Sparcs, MIPS, but no Alphas... SNIP----------------------------------------------- Peter Wallace From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Apr 24 23:05:30 2002 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Apple-1 Auction conclusion References: <006501c1eafb$0fcbf440$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Message-ID: <00a901c1ec0e$70c2dac0$882ecd18@Smith.earthlink.net> > How athletic is it, really, to run 90 feet > at a time about once an hour, if that? Well, track is a sport and some of those guys only run 100 meters about once a month, and then for only around 10 seconds. Sure, they're fast, but that's less than one inside-the-park home run. Now, bowling, that's a sport. -W From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Apr 25 00:14:53 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Korpela"'s message of "Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:07:18 -0700 (PDT)" References: <200204241707.KAA04381@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <200204250514.g3P5Erbv097511@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > Windows didn't really have 386 support until 3.0 Um, I think the Windows Virtual Machine Manager (and the notion of using multiple V86-mode VMs and virtual device drivers to run multiple DOS windows concurrently) first turned up in Windows/386. ObClassiccmp: this was long enough ago to be on topic. Hey Fred, is there any room over there on the Group Grumpy bench? -Frank McConnell From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Apr 25 01:13:31 2002 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8E0C@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > By the way, for myself, I would VERY much appreciate > > > being in touch with all individuals who have a copy of the > > > RT-11 Freeware CD V2.0 so that we might exchange > > > information about RT-11. Tim Shoppa felt that he might > > > be violating privacy concerns if he made the names, of those > > > who ordered the CD, available. > > I can appreciate Tim's discretion, but I don't mind it being known > > that I ordered a copy from him. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Is that OK just for myself or among others who are like minded? > If the latter, then RT-11 announcements will be sent to all 4 or 5 > of you at the same time - makes it easier. I think Tim said he sold > about 40 of the RT-11 Freeware CD, so many more names to go. I did also buy a copy of RT-11 (1 CD) and RSX11-M (2 CD's) from Tim. - Henk. From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Apr 25 01:42:38 2002 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for al l classic OS's Message-ID: <30DBA2DACC0CD611B3E60008C7092D8F2F8E0D@hqvenloexch.oce.nl> > Thanks a MILLION to all who have donated parts and/or money > so far to get a separate dedicated classiccmp server. > ... > Decisions decisions.... if anyone still wants to donate to > the cause, my paypal id is jwest@classiccmp.org Ok, I will truncate the last digits in my account for you. - Henk. From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Apr 25 01:48:19 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <20020425030126.72259.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c1ec25$2fdde1a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> That was the copper-vapour thingy ? Sipke de Wal ----------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loboyko Steve" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:01 AM Subject: Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. > I don't know if this is true. In the last five years, > I've found projects and parts I would never have dared > to imagine doing or owning, as a result of the > Internet and Google. I lived in a major city as a kid, > and even its large library was nothing compared to an > Internet account and a used $200 PC. I like to point > out that Issac Asimov imagined that people would have > a terminal in their homes from which all information > would be accessible. But his books were generally > written as though they were hundreds of years in the > future. This is better, and this is right now. > Collaboration across great distances is easy, and > projects can be done by virtual groups - like the one > I've read about in this group reconstructing source > code from an AIM-65. I didn't even KNOW anyone in my > city interested in things I was interested in, and I > wouldn't have known how to find them anyway if there > were any. > > I do miss the "Amateur Scientist" atricles in > Scientific American. The projects often had real > scienfic merit, were all absolutely ingeniously > simple, and were occasionally mind-bogglingly > dangerous, i.e., "fun". I built an infrared laser in > high school from one of those articles so powerful I > took it apart 1/2 hour after finishing it! Invisible, > and capable of shattering glass while reflecting of > off surfaces that didn't seem to be reflective. Wow! > > As far as the items listed at the bottom of the > article, I have one word to say: Google. I found all > of this stuff in 2 minutes 20 seconds, on a dialup - > and several sources to choose from. > > Still, I do wish that there was a place for the > "generalist" to go on the Internet. What the Internet > needs is an authoratative and often-updated list of > common mechanical and electronic surplus supplies for > hobbyists. > > > > > > --- "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > > >> I got this URL for an article in Scientific > > American that seems > > > appropriate for this group :). The last paragraph > > reads: > > > > > > "Evidently, the something-for-everyone model > > epitomized by Heathkit and > > > the Amateur Scientist column can't compete > > anymore. Specialized sources > > > and Internet newsgroups cater to each skill level. > > But much of the > > > mentoring and serendipity that the diverse > > community of amateurs offered > > > has been lost. It is hard not to regret its > > passing." > > > > Well, I didn't know this about Edmund Scientific. > > Crap. I've > > been looking for the older catalogs, now even the > > more recent > > ones I've got will become collectable unobtainium. > > > > Where will I buy water wetter? > > Where will I buy Nitonol wire? > > Where will I buy flock paper? > > Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? > > Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? > > Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? > > > > and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 25 02:03:09 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Unix versions" (Apr 24, 21:05) References: <200204250105.g3P15RNd020703@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <10204250803.ZM4489@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 24, 21:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > Isn't it a bit much to call XXDP+ an OS. > DECX-11 is closer... XXDP's pretty dumb. I've always thought of XXDP as the OS that DECX-11 runs under. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tarsi at binhost.com Thu Apr 25 02:02:47 2002 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:08 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <02042502024702.04154@simon> Just from personal experience: My college used to have a rather large lab of SGI INDYs running IRIX 5.X and they were horribly insecure. They were all hard-routed to the 'net, static IPs and everything, and were constantly being hacked. We eventually took them off the main line and put them behind a Linux firewall due to the nastiness of it all. I highly recommend not leaving IRIX-based machines sitting out in the cold unless you're VERY good at IRIX. Tarsi > What I've heard is a very, VERY loose security profile for the default > install... hack proof IRIX is possible with a good admin, but the > default load is far from secure. > > Bill From jimdavis at gorge.net Thu Apr 25 02:54:06 2002 From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <20020425030126.72259.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> <001e01c1ec25$2fdde1a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3CC7B61E.365032FE@gorge.net> I believe it was the CO2 laser, An associate of mine at OMSI built one in the late 70's It didn't have much power, but his HV power supply wasn't up to the job. I never saw the copper vapor laser, so it could be. Jim Davis Sipke de Wal wrote: > > That was the copper-vapour thingy ? > > Sipke de Wal > ----------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ----------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Loboyko Steve" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:01 AM > Subject: Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. > > > I don't know if this is true. In the last five years, > > I've found projects and parts I would never have dared > > to imagine doing or owning, as a result of the > > Internet and Google. I lived in a major city as a kid, > > and even its large library was nothing compared to an > > Internet account and a used $200 PC. I like to point > > out that Issac Asimov imagined that people would have > > a terminal in their homes from which all information > > would be accessible. But his books were generally > > written as though they were hundreds of years in the > > future. This is better, and this is right now. > > Collaboration across great distances is easy, and > > projects can be done by virtual groups - like the one > > I've read about in this group reconstructing source > > code from an AIM-65. I didn't even KNOW anyone in my > > city interested in things I was interested in, and I > > wouldn't have known how to find them anyway if there > > were any. > > > > I do miss the "Amateur Scientist" atricles in > > Scientific American. The projects often had real > > scienfic merit, were all absolutely ingeniously > > simple, and were occasionally mind-bogglingly > > dangerous, i.e., "fun". I built an infrared laser in > > high school from one of those articles so powerful I > > took it apart 1/2 hour after finishing it! Invisible, > > and capable of shattering glass while reflecting of > > off surfaces that didn't seem to be reflective. Wow! > > > > As far as the items listed at the bottom of the > > article, I have one word to say: Google. I found all > > of this stuff in 2 minutes 20 seconds, on a dialup - > > and several sources to choose from. > > > > Still, I do wish that there was a place for the > > "generalist" to go on the Internet. What the Internet > > needs is an authoratative and often-updated list of > > common mechanical and electronic surplus supplies for > > hobbyists. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > > > > >> I got this URL for an article in Scientific > > > American that seems > > > > appropriate for this group :). The last paragraph > > > reads: > > > > > > > > "Evidently, the something-for-everyone model > > > epitomized by Heathkit and > > > > the Amateur Scientist column can't compete > > > anymore. Specialized sources > > > > and Internet newsgroups cater to each skill level. > > > But much of the > > > > mentoring and serendipity that the diverse > > > community of amateurs offered > > > > has been lost. It is hard not to regret its > > > passing." > > > > > > Well, I didn't know this about Edmund Scientific. > > > Crap. I've > > > been looking for the older catalogs, now even the > > > more recent > > > ones I've got will become collectable unobtainium. > > > > > > Where will I buy water wetter? > > > Where will I buy Nitonol wire? > > > Where will I buy flock paper? > > > Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? > > > Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? > > > Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? > > > > > > and so on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > > http://games.yahoo.com/ From alan.pearson at cramer.com Thu Apr 25 04:24:45 2002 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 18:35:26 -0400 > From: Roger Merchberger > : > [no room on the puny 6G HD for Linux, tho... it's fully Linux certified as > well...] LOL, you're kidding, right? :-) If not, contact me off list and I'll be more than happy to forward instructions for installing a very useful Linux setup onto an even punier 420Mb hard disk! Cheers, Al. From alan.pearson at cramer.com Thu Apr 25 05:30:09 2002 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for al l classic OS's Message-ID: GNATS is a pretty good bug tracking system (we use it here), easy to search etc too. What would be really useful IMHO is a means to sort the classiccmp archives, since a great many "FAQs" are answered there somewhere... finding the answer isn't that easy though :-) Googling for whatever I'm looking for and including "classiccmp" in the search list is the best I've come up with so far, anyone found a better way? BTW if nobody's working on a searchable archive I'd be happy to take the work on? Cheers Al. From alan.pearson at cramer.com Thu Apr 25 05:33:38 2002 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: > From: Doc > : > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > since they have no internal mass storage. I guess he thinks Sun 3/50's are toys too. Sigh. Al. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 25 06:09:09 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for al l classic OS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Alan Pearson wrote: > What would be really useful IMHO is a means to sort the classiccmp > archives, since a great many "FAQs" are answered there somewhere... > finding the answer isn't that easy though :-) Googling for whatever > I'm looking for and including "classiccmp" in the search list is the > best I've come up with so far, anyone found a better way? Try adding 'site:classiccmp.org' (without the '') to a Google query. -Toth From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 25 06:15:53 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <20020425030126.72259.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Steve, You're quite right about the availability of DIY items IF you're motivated to look for them. Without the (dare I say it?) Radio Shack kits, Edmund Scientific catalogs, and Amateur Scientist articles how many young people will even develope an interest in DIY projects? The internet could even work against developing DIY interest given the wide availability of emulators and simulators on the web. I've been going to hamfest for a LOT of years and one thing that I've noticed is that there's practically zero interest in building stuff any more. Parts and tools that used to be very sought after now go begging. My $.02 worth, Joe At 08:01 PM 4/24/02 -0700, Steve wrote: >I don't know if this is true. In the last five years, >I've found projects and parts I would never have dared >to imagine doing or owning, as a result of the >Internet and Google. I lived in a major city as a kid, >and even its large library was nothing compared to an >Internet account and a used $200 PC. I like to point >out that Issac Asimov imagined that people would have >a terminal in their homes from which all information >would be accessible. But his books were generally >written as though they were hundreds of years in the >future. This is better, and this is right now. >Collaboration across great distances is easy, and >projects can be done by virtual groups - like the one >I've read about in this group reconstructing source >code from an AIM-65. I didn't even KNOW anyone in my >city interested in things I was interested in, and I >wouldn't have known how to find them anyway if there >were any. > >I do miss the "Amateur Scientist" atricles in >Scientific American. The projects often had real >scienfic merit, were all absolutely ingeniously >simple, and were occasionally mind-bogglingly >dangerous, i.e., "fun". I built an infrared laser in >high school from one of those articles so powerful I >took it apart 1/2 hour after finishing it! Invisible, >and capable of shattering glass while reflecting of >off surfaces that didn't seem to be reflective. Wow! > >As far as the items listed at the bottom of the >article, I have one word to say: Google. I found all >of this stuff in 2 minutes 20 seconds, on a dialup - >and several sources to choose from. > >Still, I do wish that there was a place for the >"generalist" to go on the Internet. What the Internet >needs is an authoratative and often-updated list of >common mechanical and electronic surplus supplies for >hobbyists. > > > > > >--- "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >> >> >> I got this URL for an article in Scientific >> American that seems >> > appropriate for this group :). The last paragraph >> reads: >> > >> > "Evidently, the something-for-everyone model >> epitomized by Heathkit and >> > the Amateur Scientist column can't compete >> anymore. Specialized sources >> > and Internet newsgroups cater to each skill level. >> But much of the >> > mentoring and serendipity that the diverse >> community of amateurs offered >> > has been lost. It is hard not to regret its >> passing." >> >> Well, I didn't know this about Edmund Scientific. >> Crap. I've >> been looking for the older catalogs, now even the >> more recent >> ones I've got will become collectable unobtainium. >> >> Where will I buy water wetter? >> Where will I buy Nitonol wire? >> Where will I buy flock paper? >> Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? >> Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? >> Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? >> >> and so on... >> >> >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more >http://games.yahoo.com/ > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 25 06:05:20 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: FREE STUFF! (Well almost) In-Reply-To: <000001c1ec0a$ff2d1fe0$6e7ba8c0@piii933> References: <3.0.6.32.20020424215125.0081add0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020425070520.0081cb20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:40 PM 4/24/02 -0700, you wrote: >I'd love to get in on some of that action but he's not shipping and I'm >in CA. > >Doh! > > Erik Same here. I'm in Florida. :-( Joe > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:51 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: FREE STUFF! (Well almost) > > I spotted this in the CPM news-group. It looks like a good deal for >somebody. > >From: Gerald Pine >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm >Subject: Liquidating collection of CPM (and some other) machines >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Lines: 59 >NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.253.40 >X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net >X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1019533029 ST000 32.101.253.40 (Mon, >22 Apr 2002 23:37:09 EDT) >NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:37:09 EDT >Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com >X-UserInfo1: >[[PAPDCAOXW[B^LX@JJDM^P@VZ\LPCXLLBWLOOAFQATJUZ]CDVW[AKK[J\]^HVKHG^EWZHBL >O^[\NH_AZFWGN^\DHNVMX_DHHX[FSQKBOTS@@BP^]C@RHS_AGDDC[AJM_T[GZNRNZAY]GNCP >BDYKOLK^_CZFWPGHZIXW@C[AFKBBQS@E@DAZ]VDFUNTQQ]FN >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 03:37:09 GMT >Xref: cyclone.tampabay.rr.com comp.os.cpm:20184 > >Hello, >I have sold cpm machines from my collection to several of you in the >past. I am finally running out of time to disperse my collection of >machines before my house is officially sold to its new owners. The >machines are in La Grange, Illinois, a southwest suburb of Chicago. My >wife is going to include whatever is not left in a garage sale that she >is holding next Saturday (the 27th or whatever date is a Saturday about >then--no calendar in front of me). If someone can pick up the machines >before then, or have a friend pick them up, they can be had for a VERY >attractive price. In fact, we'll let you name what you think is >reasonable. The more you take, the cheaper the better we'll like it. I >don't want to dumpster these if I can avoid it, and I doubt that the >local thrift store will be interested in them. Among what I have are: > >Multiple Osborne I's --at least one I know is working. Some have >developed glitches sitting around for the last few years, and I think >that they could easily be made to work, but no guarantees. I do have at >least boot disks for most, but you might have to sort through some >diskettes to pick them out. Take them all and your job is easier. > >Multiple Xerox 820-II's: 1 dual 8-inch floppy, 8-inch hard drive; 1 >dual 8-inch floppy. 1 dual 5 1/4 inch floppy; some home made 8-inch >drive cabinets. Have software (much) for these, and even have one >pretty complete set of manuals and original diskettes, including a >technical manual, CPM and operating manuals of various types, and MS-DOS >manual, a CPM-86 manual, a graphics manual, wordstar, and probably some >that I'm not remembering. I'd like to get a few bucks for the manuals >especially. >A Sanyo MBC-1000(?) not sure of the number, but it is a single floppy >drive Z80 machine with boot disks and some software that I've >transferred. Almost new condition. >An Altos 580 and an Altos 8000: The 580 is in fine working condition >with CPM and MPM system disks and some software for CPM that I've >transferred from other formats. The 8000 needs a new power supply. >A Mac LC-II. Machine was working, but keyboard stopped responding >except for click noise. Haven't had time to diagnose it. >A Data General 1 portable MS-DOS machine (8086 or 8088, not sure >which). Works and comes with expansion docking station and external 5 >1/4 inch drive. No software for docking station, unfortunately. >A Vic 20 with lots of goodies. >A TI-99. Not sure what;s with it. >A Columbia PC, PC compatible luggable, similar to Compaq original >portables. >A IBM XT with hard drive and CGA monitor. >4 Televideo terminals, 3 925's and a 950. Also one copy each of service >manuals and several operating manuals. >A Sperry terminal. >An Apple IIc with color and monochrome monitors and lots of software. >Wordstar 4 for CPM and for MS-DOS in original boxes. >SuperCalcII for Osborne. >Lots more software, getting too tired to list. > >Send me your email address and I'll give you details about where it is >and how to arrange to see it. Please help me to keep from dumpstering >this. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to pack and ship it, so >local pickups only. >Gerald Pine > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 25 06:20:00 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020425072000.008238f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:50 PM 4/24/02 -0400, Doug asked: > > >Where will I buy water wetter? E-bay. >Where will I buy Nitonol wire? E-bay. >Where will I buy flock paper? E-bay. >Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? E-bay. >Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? E-bay. >Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? E-bay. > >and so on... Take a guess! Joe > > > > > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Apr 25 06:35:52 2002 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: ScanPlus Gray 300 scanner - what type of interface? Message-ID: <20083.1019734552@www45.gmx.net> Hi all, a former teacher of mine dug this feed-through scanner out of his storage for me. It has a slider pot for brightness and a button labeled "Eject", a power light (green) and an error light (yellow), builtin power supply with on/off switch and IEC inlet. Then there's a female Sub-D-25 connector...unlabeled. How does that connect to the computer? Did it need one of those proprietary interface cards? (We found one in another box, but we're not sure whether it is for this one.) Did already about an hour of googling, but no definitive results...Any hints appreciated. Greetings from Germany Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 25 06:39:15 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <02Apr25.073929edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Open the box. Open the S-100 mainframe. Open the individual card boxes, >extract the cards and plug them into the mainframe. Open the carton the in >which the FDD enclosure traveled. Extract the enclosure, insert the 8" floppy >drives. Attach the cables to their respective sockets, at each end, attach >power cables, power on the Terminal, power up the S-100 box, Power up the >FDD's, insert the boot disk, watch the lights bling, ... WHAT? no display? >... oh yeah... attach the serial cable to the terminal. repeat the process... >and 64k CP/M 2.2 is booted. Total elapsed time, 4 weeks of shopping, 1 week >for shipping, 1.5 hours fiddling with boxes, cables, enclosures, etc. 45 >seconds to boot the 1st time. ... done... Cost? well, the two Mistubishi 8" >DSDD drives cost $479 each, the terminal cost $753, shipped the CCS hardware, >including CPU, FDD, 64KB DRAM, 4-additional serial port card, 4 parallel in + >4 parallel out card, mainframe, FD box (the one I sent you) $1479, I think. I >don't remember what the shipping cost was, but that was in '79. Later the >next year I attached an ST-506 drive. Looking at the above and then looking at how one would expand a CoCo or any of the early 'home' micros, I fail to see the difference other than the orientation and placement of the exansion buses. Both required you to add expansion cards for greater functionality. One happened to house the cards internally while the other didn't. You list a total of $3190 for the system above, that's a far cry from the $599 for the TRS-80 Model I or $399 for the original CoCo. Another thing to remember is that you list a system made up primarily of one vendor's cards, that being California Computer Systems. This made things quite easy, especially concerning booting CP/M. Take a more typical hobbyist S-100 bus machine though, with it's mix-and-match selection of S-100 bus boards, and the new owner will likely have to spend quite a bit more time than 45 seconds to get it to boot the OS for the first time. Did you have to expand the CoCo or other 'home' 8bit machines to do useful things? No. Did you have to spend time expanding most S-100 bus machines in order to do anything useful? Yes. The higher level of integration coupled with the much lower price is what opened the market up. Both systems are 'real' computers, both capable of similar uses, they're just aimed at different markets. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 25 06:44:45 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's References: Message-ID: <005d01c1ec4e$987e9000$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Alan wrote... > What would be really useful IMHO is a means to sort the classiccmp archives, *SIGH* Yes, this is on the adgenda. I am painfully aware that the list archives at classiccmp.org have fallen into much disarray. I was going to fix them a month ago, along with some other list changes. However, it just didn't make sense to spend the time doing that with the new classiccmp server looming on the horizon, as well as likely switching to different mailing list and archive software. Please bear with me - it will all be addressed soon. And not only will the archives be brought up to date and better automated, but they WILL be directly searchable. Thanks Jay West From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 25 07:07:18 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1ec0f$3c5a4ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 24, 02 10:11:12 pm Message-ID: <200204251207.IAA19775@wordstock.com> And thusly Richard Erlacher spake: > > Doesn't the notion of a time line mean anything to you? In the 20 years since > the period to which I was referring things have changed considerably since the > density of hardware has increased so much. It makes little sense for vendors > to sell things separately and become huge and difficult to handle just to sell > a little more plastic, when they really don't need to be bigger than a cigar > box. > > The grandkids have Playstations. Adults might want 'em too, since some of the > games are pretty slick. I don't relate to that, myself, but I know lots of > folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would > mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that > somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't > imagine why one would want to. > Here it is: Linux for PlayStation 2 Community: Home http://www.playstation2-linux.com Bryan From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 25 07:17:49 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y." Message-ID: <000e01c1ec53$37796d70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > At 09:50 PM 4/24/02 -0400, Doug asked: > > > > > > >Where will I buy water wetter? > > E-bay. > > >Where will I buy Nitonol wire? > > E-bay. > > >Where will I buy flock paper? > > E-bay. > > >Where will I buy cheap assortment of lab glassware? > > E-bay. > > >Where will I buy an ultrasonic cleaner? > > E-bay. > > >Where will I buy a good Chinese microscope? > > > E-bay. > > > >and so on... > > Take a guess! Joe- I am not rich enough to be able to take E-Bay into the bathroom with me... Having an Edmund catalog kept me from having to resort to National Geographic... ;) -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 25 07:31:12 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204251207.IAA19775@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Apr 25, 2 08:07:18 am" Message-ID: <200204251231.FAA08326@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would > > mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that > > somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't > > imagine why one would want to. > Linux for PlayStation 2 Community: Home > http://www.playstation2-linux.com There's also a NetBSD port for Dreamcast. Haven't gotten around to trying it yet (I actually went out and bought a Dreamcast when I heard it was being discontinued because that actually made it more interesting to me ;-). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Microsoft has never been to Mars. There's a reason for this. -- A. Sackett - From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 08:49:22 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <008f01c1ec09$37a05600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC77FB2.EB8CA49@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002601c1ec60$01bc0780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've never doubted that one could add things, given the will to do so. I'm curious, however, what came with it when it was new? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I can use? How much R/W memory does it have? How do you expand it to do > > > > > > CoCo 1 : 4K, 16K, 32K (or 64K with simple mods) > > > CoCo 2 : 16K or 64K > > > CoCo 3 : 128K or 512K > Well modern Coco Hackers have got several meg on the coco 3 > and ide drives and real serial ports too. > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Apr 25 09:01:39 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000201c1ec61$b84fb9a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > I've been going to hamfest for a LOT of years and one thing > that I've noticed is that there's practically zero interest in > building stuff any more. Parts and tools that used to be very > sought after now go begging. I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) want to spend lots of time and a fair bit of money to build something that is usually less capable than a less expensive commercial product. Andy From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Apr 25 09:01:38 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c1ec61$b7f42c20$4d4d2c0a@atx> > > From: Doc > > : > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > > since they have no internal mass storage. > > I guess he thinks Sun 3/50's are toys too. Sigh. If they were used with external local disks they were reasonable - in fact pretty good for the era. If they were used as diskless workstations they shared the "toy" status of all such (and of Xstations). IMNSHO Andy From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 25 09:11:22 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Recycling donated PCs Message-ID: <200204251411.KAA12522@wordstock.com> Check out this place in Oakland, CA: http://www.linuxjournal.com//article.php?sid=6021 They are taking donated PCs, installs Linux on them a provides them to schools, scientists, governments, non-profits, the underprivileged and the handicapped. They also are creating cluster farms which are being used in *very* cool ways! Cheers, Bryan From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 09:21:41 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B0@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > > > constitutes a "toy", even in the most general of terms. > > I'd say anything that runs windows primarily. *duck* > To be defined as a "TOY", doesn't it have to be FUN? You have a point, but just because it isn't _my_ idea of fun to watch an hourglass cursor spin, set through a boring install procedure every couple of weeks to coax the machine into performing better, all the while spending more money on hardware and software "necessities" that fix bugs in the system the should have never appeared, and worrying about my email client transferring "viri" around... Well, that doesn't mean that it's not somebody else's idea of fun. It obviously must be; just look at the healthy user base they've got. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 09:09:33 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: DEC3000 Model 500 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844AF@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Truthan,Larry [mailto:truthanl@oclc.org] > What is a Dec 3000 model 500? Has a cd rom. and a SCSI port > out the back. > Looks Like an Alpha Processor system. What OS? Peanut 2.2? on > handwritten CD. Well, VMS, of course. :) It will also run those other OS's ;) (The OS Formerly Known As OSF/1, NetBSD, that kind of thing...) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 09:29:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B1@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Open the box. Open the S-100 mainframe. Open the individual Wow, an S-100 mainframe. I want one of those. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 09:35:58 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <20020425143558.28194.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Smith wrote: > What about the Mac plus which had a SCSI interface, but Apple > discouraged its use (preferring, rather, that you plug your > hard drive into the floppy interface, IIRC)... I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers. I don't recall the part number, but when Apple came out with a 20MB SCSI disk, they called it the "20SC" or something similar (IIRC) to distinguish it from the older product. That having been said, I would question how much Apple "discouraged" people from using the SCSI port on the Mac Plus. There may have been an alternative and Apple may have pushed it over third-party disks, but once the stock of strange disks ran out, presuming the Mac Plus was still being made, I doubt Apple would continue to urge people to ignore the SCSI port. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 09:35:11 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@mac.com] > I know I never increased my drinking, smoking, cursing and profuse > consumption of potato chips, coffee, or cola because of > playing games on > an Apple II. Nor did I, though, I already consumed more than enough potato chips and cola. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 09:42:00 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B3@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Hey! I did say the mass storage interface had to be internal to the > "computer" and not necessarily the mass storage devices. Sure, but my point was, for instance, the C64 had drives that used what basically amounts to a straight serial (or is that parallel?) interface, and that is in the computer. But they're "toys," right? > campus is the enclosure, while if it's a desktop, it's pretty Is that like "the network is the computer?" :) > Besides, though I didn't originally point this out, some of > you guys have, as > toys, some of those very machines that you're pointing out > aren't really toys. > Are you guys trying to have it both ways? Just because they're not toys doesn't make it impossible to play with them like toys. We could just define anything that's not necessary for survival to be a toy, and be done with it. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 09:53:33 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 In-Reply-To: <3CC7778C.D5B157B3@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20020425145333.81465.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > ...I don't mind it being known that I ordered a copy... > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Is that OK just for myself or among others who are like minded? I don't see how knowledge of my RT-11 habits will increase my spamload beyond the crushing weight it already is. Sure... share it with the world. Submit it to an open mailing list... wait... we just did... :-) Thanks for all the good work. I look forward to new stuff in the future. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 25 09:56:46 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <000a01c1ec69$713b08a0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Andy Holt >I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) Impossible? How? >want to spend lots of time and a fair bit of money to build something that >is usually less capable than a less expensive commercial product. There are two good reasons to DIY. One is for personal understanding and in that case practical is often not the point. Two is something specialized that a commercial peice that may be expensive or a poor compromize. I happen to build, RF, AF and digital and the economicas is that I have a very deep junkbox and parts supply to exhaust doing it. I the realm of radios (transceivers) I have several I've designed that far exceed commercial gear as I could specialize them. Generalizing on DIY/homebrewing is not good as exceptions do abound. Allison From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 09:53:53 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B4@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > I have worse news: today, it's called a Macintosh. Before you > argue with > me, consider that nobody in their right mind would want to > buy a computer > with less than 10% market penetration, without a pretty > compelling reason. Having considered that, I've decided that the fact that it's a very nice system, and you prefer it to a Macintosh is a compelling reason to buy a system with less than 10% market penetration. Of course, there's also the "which market" argument, which I don't think I have to get into... > I find that most Mac users I talk to have compelling reasons > for owning > Macs. People that want a PC will buy a PC. People that want a They like them; indeed, that's a compelling reason. No matter how good the system is, you can't do a thing with it if you're not comfortable with it. (well, ok, you can, but it's much harder) > Mac will buy > a Mac. People that want a computer will buy a PC (though IMO > they would be > better served with Macs, but that's solely my own opinion and They certainly would, though that's not really high praise for Macintosh. They'd be better off with an Atari 400. :) People buy peesees for one of four reasons: They favor them -- usually because they've never seen anything else. Their friend-who-knows-everything-about-computers likes them (yeah...) Everybody else is doing it They don't know that anything else exists I can't think of another reason to buy a peesee. Personally, I'm much happier with my used workstation than I would be if I'd bought a peesee at the same time, for about twice the money. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 25 10:13:27 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B3@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 25, 02 09:42:00 am Message-ID: <200204251513.LAA29054@wordstock.com> And thusly Christopher Smith spake: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > Hey! I did say the mass storage interface had to be internal to the > > "computer" and not necessarily the mass storage devices. > > Sure, but my point was, for instance, the C64 had drives that used > what basically amounts to a straight serial (or is that parallel?) > interface, and that is in the computer. But they're "toys," right? > Yes, it was a serial interface. But there were a couple of companies that offered a parallel interface cable. There are also plans on the web so you can build your own. Bryan From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 10:11:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into > the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers. I > don't recall the part number, but when Apple came out with a 20MB > SCSI disk, they called it the "20SC" or something similar (IIRC) > to distinguish it from the older product. I used to have an Apple disk that plugged into the floppy port. 20M as you say, but it booted directly, so it must not have been too "strange." > That having been said, I would question how much Apple "discouraged" > people from using the SCSI port on the Mac Plus. There may have > been an alternative and Apple may have pushed it over third-party > disks, but once the stock of strange disks ran out, presuming > the Mac Plus was still being made, I doubt Apple would continue > to urge people to ignore the SCSI port. So you're saying they probably wanted people to use their disk over what SCSI disks were available? It wouldn't surprise me. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 25 10:17:07 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000201c1ec61$b84fb9a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <3CC81DF3.8F9A11AD@rain.org> The main reason for DIY is IMNSHO for the *fun* of learning. And that will translate into the sheer joy of *doing*! The people *I* know who extremely competent are also the same people who enjoy building, tinkering, etc. On the other hand, most of the people I know who are not extremely competent at building, tinkering, etc. *are* very good couch potatoes. It seems to be a matter of motivation. Andy Holt wrote: > > > I've been going to hamfest for a LOT of years and one thing > > that I've noticed is that there's practically zero interest in > > building stuff any more. Parts and tools that used to be very > > sought after now go begging. > I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are > almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > want to spend lots of time and a fair bit of money to build something that > is usually less capable than a less expensive commercial product. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 10:23:51 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000201c1ec61$b84fb9a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <3CC81F87.74C43C70@jetnet.ab.ca> Andy Holt wrote: > > > I've been going to hamfest for a LOT of years and one thing > > that I've noticed is that there's practically zero interest in > > building stuff any more. Parts and tools that used to be very > > sought after now go begging. > I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are > almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > want to spend lots of time and a fair bit of money to build something that > is usually less capable than a less expensive commercial product. Still things that are mechanical and less mass market are built today. When was the last time you built a TV? Most people today just have children watch tv or surf the net rather than encourage other activities. BTW Nuclear fusion on the small scale in a interesting hobby for the man who has done everything. http://www.mathematik.uni-marburg.de/~kronjaeg/hv/fusor/construction/index.html -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 25 10:29:09 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ec69$713b08a0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> from "Allison" at Apr 25, 02 10:56:46 am Message-ID: <200204251529.LAA32453@wordstock.com> And thusly Allison spake: > > From: Andy Holt > >I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > > Impossible? How? > Well, we are kind of spoiled here with the "You-Do-It" Electronics store in Needham. :) Cheers, Bryan From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 25 10:31:31 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: >I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into >the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers. I >don't recall the part number, but when Apple came out with a 20MB >SCSI disk, they called it the "20SC" or something similar (IIRC) >to distinguish it from the older product. The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't think they made a 1.44 external) There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know if those could have been used on the Mac. -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 10:46:25 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 In-Reply-To: <3CC7778C.D5B157B3@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20020425154625.98407.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > ...I also acquired some RK05 packs with old RT-11 distributions that I > hope to make available as soon as I can find a controller for a Qbus > or someone with both a working RK05 and something more > recent such as an RL02. From the RL02, the final step is to > make copies available via a CD. I have an RKV11D, numerous Qbus boxes and processors (this one came attached to an 11/03, but I have lots of KDF11 stuff and one KDJ11 that I have yet to power on (it has a BA213 handle which I haven't removed yet, and it does not fit into a BA11N or BA23 as-is). I also have RLV11s and RLV12s and RL02 drives in close enough proximity to be useful. I haven't fired up the RK05 in several years, so I'm not sure about the state of the rubber parts, etc., but it's all accessible and somewhat easy to reassemble. It worked the last time I used it. Additionally, I have all the modern conveniences, a burner, serial lines running from the basement to the computer room (in the same conduit I fished my CAT5 and 10BaseFL fiber), cable modem, etc. I presume that Kermit for RT-11 would be a reasonable way of getting disk images from a PDP-11 to a box with a burner. I don't think I have it, but it should be easily aquirable. I could always throw 2.9BSD on a box here and cobble up some UNIX tools, or throw the RLV12 in a uVAX-II, etc. Out of curiosity, does the RKV11D work in a uVAX? VMS drivers? I presume the RK11D does, but I wasn't sure how interchangable they were fron a driver standpoint (Unibus and Qbus drivers can have issues with mapping registers being handled differently, etc. Assumptions of intercompatibility are unwise; we had completely different drivers for our Unibus and Qbus products back in the old days). I am interested in helping, but I am booked up with external projects for a few weeks. If that timeframe is acceptable, we can take discussion of plans off-list to spare folks from this on-topic break from the on-going flame wars. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 25 10:51:30 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204251513.LAA29054@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Apr 25, 2 11:13:27 am" Message-ID: <200204251551.IAA08378@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Hey! I did say the mass storage interface had to be internal to the > > > "computer" and not necessarily the mass storage devices. > > Sure, but my point was, for instance, the C64 had drives that used > > what basically amounts to a straight serial (or is that parallel?) > > interface, and that is in the computer. But they're "toys," right? > Yes, it was a serial interface. But there were a couple of companies that > offered a parallel interface cable. There are also plans on the web so you > can build your own. The host adaptor for the SCSI Lt. Kernal external HD used a parallel-style interface through the expansion port and is capable of considerable speed. CMD hard disks, of course, can be connected through the parallel interface on a RAMLink for added performance also. And there's IDE64, which is also parallel through the expansion port. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft ----------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 25 10:56:12 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <20020425143558.28194.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 25, 2 07:35:58 am" Message-ID: <200204251556.IAA22246@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > That having been said, I would question how much Apple "discouraged" > people from using the SCSI port on the Mac Plus. There may have > been an alternative and Apple may have pushed it over third-party > disks, but once the stock of strange disks ran out, presuming > the Mac Plus was still being made, I doubt Apple would continue > to urge people to ignore the SCSI port. There were several Plus-focused SCSI drives, too. I have a Rodime 20MB HD that's even labeled "PLUS" and precisely mirrors the Plus' base (looks like it was designed to sit under the Plus, so that's where this one resides). I guess Apple wasn't all that discouraging :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Put your Nose to the Grindstone! -- Plastic Surgeons-Toolmakers Union Ltd. - From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 25 10:55:19 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <000a01c1ec71$9cbd5d40$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Christopher Smith >People buy peesees for one of four reasons: > >They favor them -- usually because they've never seen anything else. > >Their friend-who-knows-everything-about-computers likes them (yeah...) > >Everybody else is doing it > >They don't know that anything else exists Reason #5: It's a large market and compatability is handy for many reasons. You don't have to like it but if you have a PC even a slow one it can be very handy. It doesn't mean you must pitch over to microsoftism either as there are enough non- M$ tools that seem to work ok on the base winders. As to buying a PC... why? People are giving away P166s and thats enough to do most anything if a decent disk is installed. I figure if I spend more than the price of a new modest sized disk I've overpaid for my PCs. Of course I don't do the games or heavy graphics that want cpu up the wazzoo or other resources. Allison From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 25 10:57:31 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: UNIX versions In-Reply-To: <3CC735F4.38C6169D@diablonet.net> References: <3CC735F4.38C6169D@diablonet.net> Message-ID: <20020425155731.GI277480@uiuc.edu> Sean Caron said: > > Granted, if I wanted to run an Internet server, I would probably > reach for one of my Sun slabs running NetBSD, but my desktop UNIX > workstation sitting next to me here is an Indigo2! Actually, the Origin 200 I run at work makes an amazing internet server... I have about 1000 users for email, web, ftp, assorted interactive login crap, AND compute jobs, and I've never had the thing fail or be unable to handle the load. It starts to lag a little when IRIX reports a load average of about 10, though ;) > > I love SGI hardware -- I have a ton of Indy, Indigo, and Indigo2 > systems that I run as UNIX workstations around the house, and I > have not yet found a window manager that I prefer over 4Dwm. > All my SGI machines are superbly reliable, although security can > get to be a concern sometimes. I agree with you in general... the SGIs are GREAT hardware, with the exception of the O2, which is almost total crap. That's what happens when a company like SGI tries to make a "budget" computer... > 16 CDs? That seems really strange -- I tend to throw almost the > entire system on my machines (drive space willing) and it takes > maybe six or seven for 6.5.0... The full media set for 6.5.13 is about 16 CDs, but that includes the compilers and other things. I think I can get away with only using about 10 (6-7 for 6.5.0 + 4 for the 6.5.13 overlays). Still... > > Kind regards, > > Sean Caron > > -- > > Sean Caron http://www.diablonet.net > scaron@engin.umich.edu root@diablonet.net - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 25 11:05:22 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <000f01c1ec0f$3c5a4ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200204250320.g3P3Kbf63115@ns2.ezwind.net> <000f01c1ec0f$3c5a4ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020425160522.GJ277480@uiuc.edu> Richard Erlacher said: > > The grandkids have Playstations. Adults might want 'em too, since some of the > games are pretty slick. I don't relate to that, myself, but I know lots of > folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would > mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that > somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't > imagine why one would want to. Well, for starters, the thing has a pretty impressive MIPS core, and there's a faculty member here who's porting computational chemistry apps to the PS2 running linux... http://spawn.scs.uiuc.edu/research/sonyps2/ps2project.htm - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 25 11:07:21 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <2f.264e5ee6.29f983b9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2002 10:46:00 AM Central Daylight Time, mythtech@mac.com writes: > >I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into > >the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers. I > >don't recall the part number, but when Apple came out with a 20MB > >SCSI disk, they called it the "20SC" or something similar (IIRC) > >to distinguish it from the older product. > > The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I > always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is > a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An > external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > think they made a 1.44 external) > > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > if those could have been used on the Mac. > > The hard drive was called an HD20. I have a mac 512k that uses it. About a fast as a floppy drive, but at least it held 20megs worth. You couldnt chain a floppy drive off the HD20 though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/d57f05dd/attachment.html From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 25 11:13:04 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> References: <20020424204755.GB234291@uiuc.edu> <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20020425161304.GK277480@uiuc.edu> Bill Pechter said: > > What I've heard is a very, VERY loose security profile for the default > install... hack proof IRIX is possible with a good admin, but the > default load is far from secure. The IRIX setup wizard includes questions like: Would you like to set a root password? Would you like to require user passwords at login? Would you like to use shadow passwords? clearly, they have a VERY robust security model in mind at the factory...*cough* > > Bill > > -- > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 25 11:16:00 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <02042502024702.04154@simon> References: <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <02042502024702.04154@simon> Message-ID: <20020425161600.GL277480@uiuc.edu> Tarsi said: > Just from personal experience: > > My college used to have a rather large lab of SGI INDYs running IRIX 5.X and > they were horribly insecure. They were all hard-routed to the 'net, static > IPs and everything, and were constantly being hacked. We eventually took > them off the main line and put them behind a Linux firewall due to the > nastiness of it all. I highly recommend not leaving IRIX-based machines > sitting out in the cold unless you're VERY good at IRIX. Yeah, pretty much. Also, don't use IRIX 5.x if you can avoid it; it has HORRIBLE security problems, and as it's not suppored any more (and hasn't been for quite a while) you won't get any updates to fix the problems... Though, I think any machines that are truly on-topic wouldn't be able to run IRIX 6.5 anyway ;) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Apr 25 11:36:08 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146787D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Chris > > >I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into > >the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers. I > >don't recall the part number, but when Apple came out with a 20MB > >SCSI disk, they called it the "20SC" or something similar (IIRC) > >to distinguish it from the older product. > > The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I > always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is > a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An > external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > think they made a 1.44 external) > > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > if those could have been used on the Mac. > > -chris > > > This reminds me... I have here an Applied Engineering AEHD 3.5" External disk drive for Apple Computers. But the machine it's from is long gone. Who wants it? Say, $20 for me to pack it and ship it out. -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Apr 25 11:39:50 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146787E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> For those of you just catching up to this, the stuff has all been either tossed or claimed. -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: David Woyciesjes > > This is the whole list. The room has to be emptied _today_, so I can > bring stuff home with me, if you want to get it later in the day. I'll try > to take home any of the smaller unclaimed stuff to store. > Again, everything is in unknown, untested condition; as-is. > Let me know by around 5:00 pm eastern time... > > > ---------- > > From: David Woyciesjes > > > > We're cleaning here, and got some stuff being tossed. > > > > Free, Come pick it up... > > > > 12 old modems - Gandalf LDS125 (?) > > about 12 (?) dozen tape reels. 12" diameter. They're in 4 15" monitor > > boxes... > -1 box is probably taken... > > 2 HP LaserJet IID, with duplex - Taken? > > 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex - taken? > > some long comms(?) cables > > Epson line printers > > CSU/DSU > > -- > > > And here's more stuff... > > 2 Topaz Powermaker UPSs > 1, maybe 2 Datability Vista terminal servers > 1, maybe 2 Delnis > Digital DECRepeater 350 > DeskJet 500 > DeskJet Plus > VT220 > VT420 > Radius 21" (?) monchrome monitor > > -- > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 11:34:44 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020425163444.17815.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > On another note, I concede that Byte is not the best price guide, but > it's the resource I had available. I'm still skeptical the difference > was THAT great. I would tend to agree with you. I remember looking at prices in Byte and being disgusted at the time, but if you could afford to advertise there, you weren't small potatoes. Computer Shopper is a good place for bargain prices of the day, with less "print lag" than Byte. One of the things I hated was seeing "*CALL*" for 80% of prices for what I was interested in, but I know that things changed too fast to commit to a price 90 days in advance. Local sales flyers are also a good place to cull pricing information, if you can find them. There are a few on the web and I have a couple from way-back-when. One of the cool things about an Atari 800 system a friend gave me when he moved was that it came with Atari official price sheets, and, since the donor was an Engineer, he saved every single receipt for every item he ever bought - $2,500 for the base system (CPU, 32KB RAM, printer, external serial ports, modem, two floppies, acoustic coupler, tape drive, manuals, joysticks, etc.) and that was about 80% of MSRP! It's only one data point, but it is *spot on*. Some real person paid those real dollars for a machine that is completely documented. It's also interesting to look back at what the big iron used to cost. Somewhere, I have a DEC third-party-reseller flyer listing the RA81 at $14,000 (we paid $26,000 for one in 1984) - that's about $33/MB, or about 1650000% more than a modern 100GB drive ($0.002/MB) While I don't have a massive pile of pricing data (that isn't in the backs of magazines), I think it's an interesting category of data to save. Sometimes the "good old days" don't look so good. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From pat at purdueriots.com Thu Apr 25 11:27:06 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B1@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > Open the box. Open the S-100 mainframe. Open the individual > > Wow, an S-100 mainframe. I want one of those. :) > > Chris I don't think that *anything* that had a S-100 bus as it's primary bus could be called a mainframe (or mini for that matter)... don't minis (and i'm gonna extrapolate mainframes from that) usually have an asynchronous bus like QBus/Unibus/Omnibus/etc? Anyhow, what kind of bus do S/360s and S/370s (and old, on topic S/390s) use? (Yes, proprietary I know. how it works I don't know.) -- Pat From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 11:37:45 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <20020425161304.GK277480@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20020425163745.69625.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Wright wrote: > The IRIX setup wizard includes questions like: > > Would you like to set a root password? > Would you like to require user passwords at login? > Would you like to use shadow passwords? Would you like to automatically submit your IP address to an IRC bot on a regular basis? :-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Apr 25 13:57:47 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000a01c1ec69$713b08a0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CC851AB.320DBC6D@bluewin.ch> Allison wrote: > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > > Impossible? How? > Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. Granted, not all equipment is build that way, but I am rather pessimistic about the future of electronics as a hobby. I also believe the rise in interest in classic computing is due to the fact that you can tinker with the old machines... Regards , Jos From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 11:49:35 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:09 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204251551.IAA08378@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20020425164935.53170.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Sure, but my point was, for instance, the C64 had drives that used > > > what basically amounts to a straight serial (or is that parallel?) Serialized IEEE-488, essentially - Tramiel demanded that Commodore not be stuck not being able to buy enough connectors for the next generation of product. There was some sort of supply problem with them in the PET days. > And there's IDE64, which is also parallel through the expansion port. Yes. I have one. Got a 20MB HP Kittyhawk 1.8" IDE drive on it (talk about *tiny*) I did think of that, but I declined to mention it because it _is_ an external drive controller of the sort that Dick was railing against in the first place. I have no problem calling the C-64 a "toy" (it's been called much worse over the years, especially by Atari and Apple zealots ;-) Nevertheless, it was one of my favorite machines; it got me my first job 20 years ago, and I spent countless hours programming it, building doodads for it, etc. It took the Amiga to get me to shelve my C-64, and even then, for the first year, I used the C-64 more because I could get more done with it (Kickstart 1.1 sucked! I switched to the Amiga when KS1.2 came out and the market began to open up and disgorge useful goodies for it). It took a combination of the Web and cheap SPARC hardware to get me to give up the Amiga. I haven't powered on my A4000 in months. :-( I suppose the moribund nature of the Amiga market was a contributing factor, too, but AMosaic on a tiny screen just doesn't cut it. At least I had ethernet, or I'd have dumped the Amiga long, long ago. These days, my personal criteria is "no ethernet == toy" (for stuff made after 1990) The iOpener or Audrey as shipped is a toy; add USB Ethernet and it graduates to "potentially useful tool". -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 25 11:54:00 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: >You couldnt chain a floppy drive off the HD20 though. You sure? I seem to recall that at one point I had two HD20's chained with a 400k floppy at the end (for 3 devices hanging off the floppy port). This was probably on my Mac Plus, as that is the machine that saw the most use of my HD20's. But I could be remembering wrong (I am at least almost 100% positive that I had two HD20's chained at one point) -chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 11:53:34 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: IRIX References: <20020424204755.GB234291@uiuc.edu> <200204250108.g3P18Wfr020783@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> <20020425161304.GK277480@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <3CC8348E.53D88AF0@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Wright wrote: > > Bill Pechter said: > > > > What I've heard is a very, VERY loose security profile for the default > > install... hack proof IRIX is possible with a good admin, but the > > default load is far from secure. > > The IRIX setup wizard includes questions like: > > Would you like to set a root password? > Would you like to require user passwords at login? > Would you like to use shadow passwords? > > clearly, they have a VERY robust security model in mind at the > factory...*cough* IRIX -- please insert the Windows 95 disk ... ... Installing :) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 25 11:58:08 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <000801c1ec7a$62b55220$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Bryan Pope >And thusly Allison spake: >> >> From: Andy Holt >> >I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are >> >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) >> >> Impossible? How? >> > >Well, we are kind of spoiled here with the "You-Do-It" Electronics store in >Needham. :) Feh! U-blew-it, home of the high priced spread. However they exist and are handy at times. The ham/electornics fleas are handy as mail/email order outfits. Allison From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 11:57:57 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020425165757.25473.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: I wrote: > >I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into > >the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers... > ...there is a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy > port. An external 400k floppy drive. Well, OK. I didn't explicitly mention that they made floppies for the floppy port. Bu "exactly one", I meant "hard disks" to show that it wasn't commonly done. i.e., Apple didn't have a range of products starting at 20MB and going up to 100MB with new models every 18 months. One. AFAIK, it was developed for the 512KE, anyway, and perhaps the 512K (the difference being 400KB vs 800KB internal floppy and ROMs to match). > They may have made other external floppies > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > think they made a 1.44 external) They did make external 800K floppies. I have several. I even paid $135 for one at Dayton (the "cash" price) to hook up to an A-Max cartridge so I could run MacOS on my Amiga (my mother owned a typesetting shop and let me print on her $5,000 laserwriter for free). I am not aware of any external 1.44MB floppies. I suppose you could gut an 800K case (not a 400K - there's one wire different, AFAIK) and drop a FDHD in there, but I doubt it was ever a product. I do not recall if a FDHD drive will work, even at 800K, in a Mac that isn't expecting it. I have one FDHD SE and several 800K SEs; I suppose if I were ever curious enough, I could test the theory. > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > if those could have been used on the Mac. Similar, certainly. I don't know enough about the differences to say either way myself. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 25 12:00:17 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204251207.IAA19775@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Doesn't the notion of a time line mean anything to you? In the 20 years since > > the period to which I was referring things have changed considerably since the > > density of hardware has increased so much. It makes little sense for vendors > > to sell things separately and become huge and difficult to handle just to sell > > a little more plastic, when they really don't need to be bigger than a cigar > > box. > > > > The grandkids have Playstations. Adults might want 'em too, since some of the > > games are pretty slick. I don't relate to that, myself, but I know lots of > > folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would > > mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that > > somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't > > imagine why one would want to. > > Here it is: > > Linux for PlayStation 2 Community: Home > http://www.playstation2-linux.com I believe NetBSD also runs on Playstation 2. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 25 12:02:21 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <000701c1ec7a$f751e830$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I > always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is > a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An > external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > think they made a 1.44 external) > > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > if those could have been used on the Mac. I used to own an external 400k drive, sold it about 10 years ago along with the old 400k internal drive they let me keep when I had my Fat mac upgraded to a 512Ke. Yes, Apple did make an external drive, ISTR is was called UniDrive but that was also what they called the single plastic 5.25inch drives for the Apple //e, according to Sellam... So I think Apple may have goofed and used the name twice. However, these were not Superdrives, IIRC, they didn't support 1.44MB, only 800MB. When I first saw it, the sounds it made were like a little hard drive, or so it seemd at the time. Third-parties also made external drives; I have one such beast, can't recall the maker, but I think it has both autoeject in addition to the quite visible and accessible front-panel eject button. -dq From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 25 12:21:37 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <20020425163444.17815.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 25, 02 09:34:44 am Message-ID: <200204251721.NAA23998@wordstock.com> And thusly Ethan Dicks spake: > > > One of the cool things about an Atari 800 system a friend gave me when > he moved was that it came with Atari official price sheets, and, since > the donor was an Engineer, he saved every single receipt for every > item he ever bought - $2,500 for the base system (CPU, 32KB RAM, > printer, external serial ports, modem, two floppies, acoustic coupler, > tape drive, manuals, joysticks, etc.) and that was about 80% of MSRP! > It's only one data point, but it is *spot on*. Some real person paid > those real dollars for a machine that is completely documented. > > It's also interesting to look back at what the big iron used to cost. > Somewhere, I have a DEC third-party-reseller flyer listing the RA81 > at $14,000 (we paid $26,000 for one in 1984) - that's about $33/MB, > or about 1650000% more than a modern 100GB drive ($0.002/MB) > > While I don't have a massive pile of pricing data (that isn't in > the backs of magazines), I think it's an interesting category of > data to save. Sometimes the "good old days" don't look so good. > But can you really compare the smaller-faster-cheaper of today *directly* to what was available say, in 1980? Wouldn't that be like comparing how much groceries were in 1980 without factoring in inflation? This is like a pet peeve of mine - reviews of classic games that have been ported to modern systems. The reviewer will always point out how blocky the graphics are or how the sound leaves a lot to be desired. :-( Cheers, Bryan From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Apr 25 12:39:26 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: AEHD 3.5" External disk drive for Apple Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467880@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This has been spoken for.. -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: David Woyciesjes > > This reminds me... I have here an Applied Engineering AEHD 3.5" > External disk drive for Apple Computers. But the machine it's from is long > gone. > Who wants it? Say, $20 for me to pack it and ship it out. > > -- > --- David A Woyciesjes From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Apr 25 12:49:17 2002 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <01C1EBE4.54ABCA60@on-tor-blr-a58-04-718.look.ca> References: <01C1EBE4.54ABCA60@on-tor-blr-a58-04-718.look.ca> Message-ID: <20020425174917.GA22842@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe M H Stein, from writings of Wed, Apr 24, 2002 at 10:53:29PM -0400: > Despite being called morons, brain-damaged, biz'droid lusers, etc., with If the label fits, why not use it? ;-) > intelligence in the gutter, apparently those of us who do manage quite well > to do our jobs & accomplish what we need/want using MS OSs & apps on Yes, but inefficiently. > PCs value our time more and respect diversity & other peoples' choices Oh really? I've worked with, and for, many narrow-minded biz'droids who only knew about Micro$oft rubbish and would not hear of anyone using anything else, or, if they did have to use UNIX for anything, they'd use those annoyances from SCO (e.g., OpenServer) and didn't appear able to comprehend that other flavors of UNIX were more reliable and less troublesome. One of them told me that there was no difference between BSD and Linux, and he firmly believed that BSD was based on Linux! Another one insisted that I switch to M$-Word from LaTeX, since M$-Word was a "standard;" he claimed that no one else would be able to update the documentation written in LaTeX if I left, which, he believed, would leave them with a lot of useless data. It seems that the logic used by Micro$oft pushers/dealers is: "Micro$oft is the standard, therefore it should be used." On those grounds, they refuse to listen to any reasons as to why anything else is, or might be, useful - since "it's not the standard" (or so they think). > But it's reassuring that there are people out there who'd rather insult their > clients/bosses or quit than work with MS/PC stuff; less competition and What's wrong with that? Why be slaves to the Micro$oft virusware? > Hard to remember sometimes that the intelligent majority is silent ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I believe that you have something inverted... (an inverter left out of some circuitry when your brain was forming?) ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.org 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.org beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Apr 25 12:31:56 2002 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <18.1e312cc5.29f9978c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/25/2002 12:21:52 PM Central Daylight Time, dquebbeman@acm.org writes: > > The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I > > always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is > > a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An > > external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies > > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > > think they made a 1.44 external) > > > > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > > if those could have been used on the Mac. > > I used to own an external 400k drive, sold it about 10 years ago > along with the old 400k internal drive they let me keep when I > had my Fat mac upgraded to a 512Ke. > > Yes, Apple did make an external drive, ISTR is was called UniDrive > but that was also what they called the single plastic 5.25inch drives > for the Apple //e, according to Sellam... So I think Apple may have > goofed and used the name twice. However, these were not Superdrives, > IIRC, they didn't support 1.44MB, only 800MB. > > When I first saw it, the sounds it made were like a little hard > drive, or so it seemd at the time. > > Third-parties also made external drives; I have one such beast, > can't recall the maker, but I think it has both autoeject in > addition to the quite visible and accessible front-panel eject > button. > Apple called their drives Unidisks, at least for the // family. There was also an apple 3.5 drive, but was only for the mac I think. There was some compatibility notes on what drives went with what. I once had an external Laser 800k drive that worked with either the Laser128 or mac. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/faa9dd16/attachment.html From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 25 12:39:04 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <200204251739.KAA02886@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ben Franchuk" ---ship--- >>BTW Nuclear fusion on the small scale in a interesting hobby for the >man who has done everything. >http://www.mathematik.uni-marburg.de/~kronjaeg/hv/fusor/construction/index.html I get a kick out of the fact that he made the electrodes in the shape of the old atom symbol they used to use in the advertisements. Does anyone remember the name of the little cartoon character that the GE advertisements had for the atom? Dwight From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Apr 25 12:54:24 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (geoffr@zipcon.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: ScanPlus Gray 300 scanner - what type of interface? References: <20083.1019734552@www45.gmx.net> Message-ID: <3cc842d0d51bc5.64211074@zipcon.net> > Hi all, > > a former teacher of mine dug this feed-through scanner out of his storage > for me. It has a slider pot for brightness and a button labeled "Eject", a > power light (green) and an error light (yellow), builtin power supply with on/off > switch and IEC inlet. Then there's a female Sub-D-25 connector...unlabeled. > How does that connect to the computer? Did it need one of those proprietary > interface cards? (We found one in another box, but we're not sure whether it > is for this one.) > > Did already about an hour of googling, but no definitive results...Any hints > appreciated. it is -probably- a plustek scanplus gray 300 http://www.plustek.com/ check here for details. it will help ID the scanner if it IS a plustek http://www.olidata.it/files/hw/scanners/defold.htm has plustek TWAIN drivers for win 9x From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Apr 25 12:53:52 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ec69$713b08a0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <000201c1ec82$296d0a00$4d4d2c0a@atx> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: 25 April 2002 15:57 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. > > > From: Andy Holt > >I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few > (Tony? :-) > > Impossible? How? When I was home-brewing computers about 20 years ago the modern components of the time were reasonably easy to obtain reasonably stable for wire-wrap easy to solder - or use in sockets adequately documented (usually :-) if programmable could be DIY programmed rather than needing an expensive box and almost everything worked from a simple 5v supply Nowadays You typically have to deal with distributors - little problem for the experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers The edge speed of modern logic is so high that WW is unlikely to work In fact even PCBs now need designing using UHF techniques for the same reason SMT devices - and almost everything nowadays is only available as such - are best handled with an expensive soldering station (and BGA devices need even more expensive equiment). Documentation - though nowadays typically easier to obtain - is often oversimplified. Programming devices often needs (one or both of) expensive hardware or extremely expensive software. I stand by the "almost impossible" statement above. The one main exception to this black picture is the single-chip flash micro - such as the PIC family or the 8051 derivatives. But working with these is more like computer programming than hardware design. > Generalizing on DIY/homebrewing is not good as exceptions do abound. Which is why I use terms like "almost impossible" and "few" rather than absolute statements. Andy From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 12:57:17 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204251721.NAA23998@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20020425175717.22416.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > But can you really compare the smaller-faster-cheaper of today *directly* > to what was available say, in 1980? Wouldn't that be like comparing how > much groceries were in 1980 without factoring in inflation? No you cannot. Not directly. You can, if you care to take the time, filter through publicly available economic data and adjust any price sheet you want to "1970 dollars" or whatever benchmark suits. Personally, I compare it to my own salary history (for stuff that for my own use). YMMV -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 25 12:57:30 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000801c1ec7a$62b55220$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> from "Allison" at Apr 25, 02 12:58:08 pm Message-ID: <200204251757.NAA31915@wordstock.com> And thusly Allison spake: > > > > >Well, we are kind of spoiled here with the "You-Do-It" Electronics store in > >Needham. :) > > Feh! U-blew-it, home of the high priced spread. However they exist and > are handy at times. The ham/electornics fleas are handy as mail/email > order outfits. > O. :( What about this other store I just found on the net called "Active Electronics"? They have a stores located in Woburn and Cambridge? I am looking to get a soldering iron plus double-sided copper clab boards, chemicals and dry-erase (I can't remember the exact name) to draw the circuit. Thanks, Bryan From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 25 13:05:08 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: >Well, OK. I didn't explicitly mention that they made floppies for the >floppy port. Bu "exactly one", I meant "hard disks" to show that it >wasn't commonly done. Ah yes... beyond floppies, the Apple HD20 is the only other device by ANYONE that I am aware of for the Mac floppy port (their might be other stuff... I'm just not aware of them). But floppy drives were available from a number of vendors. >I do not >recall if a FDHD drive will work, even at 800K, in a Mac that isn't >expecting it. I have one FDHD SE and several 800K SEs; I suppose if >I were ever curious enough, I could test the theory. I don't think it could be done with Apple branded drives unless you had the newer ROM that allowed the FDHD. However, there were some 3rd party external drives that worked with 1.44 3.5 disks, and even with 5.25 and PC disks. And those worked with older Macs (at least back to the Mac Plus, and I think as far back as the 512k or kE). I think Dayna was an example of a company that made a high density external drive for the Plus... and they had a model that had a 5.25 drive in the same case (only R/W pc format IIRC). But I assume such drives had an init and didn't "just work". I will be sure to test the AE drive I am getting from Dave tonight on my Mac Plus to see if it could read a 1.44 disk. -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 13:07:04 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: linux in 6gb In-Reply-To: <20020424204547.GA234291@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20020425180704.19413.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Wright wrote: > Ethan Dicks said: > > > > I've got a functional kernel and a webcam app with ftp client (to > export > > the pictures) on a floppy disk. I also have Linux with a GUI, browser, > > messenger client and MP3 player in the 16M flash disk of my iOpener. > > Did you install linux on the flash disk? Yes. http://sourceforge.net/projects/jailbait/ > I put a 4GB HDD in my iOpener :) I have a 6GB drive that never made it into my iOpener - I diverted it into my old Dell laptop, replacing a 2.1GB disk. Due to another toy, the TuxScreen ("Shannon" telephone), I learned of some 32MB EDO SODIMMs for $15 that happen to fit the TuxScreen _and_ my laptop, bringing it up to 80MB total and helping me to work more smoothly on an Open Source project with heavy hardware DIY - http://lcdproc.omnipotent.net/ > If not, it comes with QNX, not linux... Yes, as does the Audrey. I've played with QNX in an on-topic sense - the environmental controls of the Crary Science and Engineering Center (CSEC) at McMurdo Station are QNX based. I had to debug a network problem that was forcing the Facilities guys to tweak stuff by hand because their workstation was knocked off-line and they didn't have spare parts for the "computer" part of their system, only the "environmental" part (the problem was a dead NIC, but of a vintage and brand that we had to seriously scrounge for a spare - all of our desktops had 3C509s or one of a couple of varieties of NE2000 clone) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Thu Apr 25 13:09:20 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics (Debian) Message-ID: > > What you label "garbage" are the very attributes that many > > Debian members > > hold dear. > Probably exactly why I stay away from "the Debian community," > so to speak. That's fine, and it's your choice, but please remember that since you are "staying away from the Debian community", you are using a system that is the product of others' hard work, and not contributing. If you don't wish to assist the project, IMO you shouldn't be shooting flames and labels around when you're dissatisfied with the outcome. That is just my weak and unfounded opinion; but I just feel that instead of venting your disgust on other unrelated mailing lists, these issues would be better brought up to the Debian project itself. That way, we can be aware of views that diverge from the popular "Debian user"'s view, in order to attempt to provide a better system for all. I mean, yeah, it's great hearing praise and honors from people who love Debian, but we can't improve upon our system when all we hear is what we've done right, and when the grumpy ones :D post their opinions elsewhere so the larger Debian developer base never sees them. Dig? This isn't a flame or a reprimand, it's simply a suggestion. If you disagree, that is fine. I'm just looking out for my operating system. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 13:09:37 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <001901c1ec06$e4e8b760$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20020425180937.85444.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > In the case of a '360, the BUILDING was the enclosure. > > Dick "The whole *house* becomes a speaker... you move into the garage" -- Stan Freeburg, "Hi-Fi" sketch -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From Gary.Messick at itt.com Thu Apr 25 13:14:22 2002 From: Gary.Messick at itt.com (Messick, Gary) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD704468A17@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight K. Elvey [mailto:dwightk.elvey@amd.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. > > > I get a kick out of the fact that he made the electrodes > in the shape of the old atom symbol they used to use in > the advertisements. Does anyone remember the name of the > little cartoon character that the GE advertisements had > for the atom? > Dwight > > Reddy Kilowatt! ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ From red at bears.org Thu Apr 25 13:14:29 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <000a01c1ec71$9cbd5d40$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Allison wrote: > Reason #5: It's a large market and compatability is handy for many > reasons. You don't have to like it but if you have a PC even a slow one > it can be very handy. It doesn't mean you must pitch over to > microsoftism either as there are enough non- M$ tools that seem to work > ok on the base winders. You beat me to the punch, Allison. (: ok r. From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Thu Apr 25 13:18:58 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics (Debian) Message-ID: > The entire world has voted. The name is "Linux", not "GNU/Linux". I'm not preaching Stallman. What I said is that the better part of the Debian community has chosen to give GNU credit in the system. You can disagree with it, and that is fine! The world+dog does not have to think Stallman is the icon of open source. Go ahead and edit your /etc/issue if it's that big a deal. At the risk of being a pedant, Debian is not a Linux operating system; it is designed to be a universal operating system, that can use any Unix-like kernel at its core. Debian is being bootstrapped on BSD and Hurd currently. The core of Debian is GNU system utilities and the Debian policy and package system, which is why the kernel name is prefixed by Debian and GNU. Redhat, Mandrake, etc don't bother, because they are Linux systems, and ONLY Linux systems. They will never be anything else, thus "Redhat Linux" and "Mandrake Linux" are fine titles; they indicate what the system aspires to be. That's the pragma behind it, it's not giving into Stallman's demands and such, it's just a choice behind the user and developer community that "This is how we want to present our system as installed by default." They're not twisting anyone's arm. -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From eklein at impac.com Thu Apr 25 13:31:22 2002 From: eklein at impac.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <20020425163444.17815.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004701c1ec87$675ef120$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> I still have many of my old computer receipts. My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. I have a notebook full of receipts and invoices that came with a pair of Altairs. In addition to the costs for the specific machines there are also receipts for various other hardware items including old Cromemco and SOL stuff. I'll have to take a more careful look at some point and either scan those or post the prices here. Erik S. Klein -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:35 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) --- "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > On another note, I concede that Byte is not the best price guide, but > it's the resource I had available. I'm still skeptical the difference > was THAT great. I would tend to agree with you. I remember looking at prices in Byte and being disgusted at the time, but if you could afford to advertise there, you weren't small potatoes. Computer Shopper is a good place for bargain prices of the day, with less "print lag" than Byte. One of the things I hated was seeing "*CALL*" for 80% of prices for what I was interested in, but I know that things changed too fast to commit to a price 90 days in advance. Local sales flyers are also a good place to cull pricing information, if you can find them. There are a few on the web and I have a couple from way-back-when. One of the cool things about an Atari 800 system a friend gave me when he moved was that it came with Atari official price sheets, and, since the donor was an Engineer, he saved every single receipt for every item he ever bought - $2,500 for the base system (CPU, 32KB RAM, printer, external serial ports, modem, two floppies, acoustic coupler, tape drive, manuals, joysticks, etc.) and that was about 80% of MSRP! It's only one data point, but it is *spot on*. Some real person paid those real dollars for a machine that is completely documented. It's also interesting to look back at what the big iron used to cost. Somewhere, I have a DEC third-party-reseller flyer listing the RA81 at $14,000 (we paid $26,000 for one in 1984) - that's about $33/MB, or about 1650000% more than a modern 100GB drive ($0.002/MB) While I don't have a massive pile of pricing data (that isn't in the backs of magazines), I think it's an interesting category of data to save. Sometimes the "good old days" don't look so good. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 25 13:39:10 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <000f01c1ec88$7d708cc0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I get a kick out of the fact that he made the electrodes > in the shape of the old atom symbol they used to use in > the advertisements. Does anyone remember the name of the > little cartoon character that the GE advertisements had > for the atom? Hmmm... nope, though I do recall the REMC mascot, "Reddy Kilowatt", with a lightening bolt for a body... -dq From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Thu Apr 25 13:43:58 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <200204251843.AA03367@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:46:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Anyone Care About RT-11 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > In-Reply-To: <3CC7778C.D5B157B3@compsys.to> > > > --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > ...I also acquired some RK05 packs with old RT-11 distributions that I > > hope to make available as soon as I can find a controller for a Qbus > > or someone with both a working RK05 and something more > > recent such as an RL02. From the RL02, the final step is to > > make copies available via a CD. > > I have an RKV11D, numerous Qbus boxes and processors (this one came > attached to an 11/03, but I have lots of KDF11 stuff and one KDJ11 > that I have yet to power on (it has a BA213 handle which I haven't > removed yet, and it does not fit into a BA11N or BA23 as-is). I > also have RLV11s and RLV12s and RL02 drives in close enough proximity > to be useful. I haven't fired up the RK05 in several years, so I'm not > sure about the state of the rubber parts, etc., but it's all accessible > and somewhat easy to reassemble. It worked the last time I used it. > > I presume the RK11D does, but I wasn't sure how interchangable they > were fron a driver standpoint (Unibus and Qbus drivers can have issues > with mapping registers being handled differently, etc. Assumptions of > intercompatibility are unwise; we had completely different drivers for > our Unibus and Qbus products back in the old days). The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus interface. Sort of a built-in Qniverter. Unfortunately the designers skimped on the extended address bits, so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space. I think that hardware hacks to add two address bits to make the RKV11 compatible with the RK!1 have been published, but I don't remember where. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 25 13:46:21 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y." Message-ID: <000701c1ec89$7e669010$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Nowadays You typically have to deal with distributors - little > problem for the experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers Usually, I could just call up the chipmaker/partmaker and ask for a few enegineering samples. When a 10MB Irwin QIC drive stopped working, I probed the adress line on the thing's Z-8 (yes, Z8) processor; there was no change, so I figured it was toast. Called up Zilog (this was 1987), asked for one, got two. Pull bad chip, insert new chip, got working Irwin drive. More recently, though, you have to develop a relationship with a rep from the local distributer (Hamilton-Avnet, Meunier, Graham, etc). WORST CASE was Mitel; I needed parts for a mini-PBX I designed and then never built. I had to buy this guy *two* martini lunches before i got my parts. Still it was a bargain... -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 25 14:04:57 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics (Debian) Message-ID: <000901c1ec8c$17572c10$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > That's the pragma behind it, it's not giving into Stallman's demands and > such, it's just a choice behind the user and developer community that "This > is how we want to present our system as installed by default." They're not > twisting anyone's arm. Never had a problem with Debian, other than its name... it always either parses as "of or having to do with Debbie", or I hear "Denebian" as in "Denebian slime devil". Is it an acronym for something? -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 14:01:40 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > These days, my personal criteria is "no ethernet == toy" (for > stuff made > after 1990) The iOpener or Audrey as shipped is a toy; add > USB Ethernet > and it graduates to "potentially useful tool". So dual FDDI just isn't good enough for you? :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 14:04:42 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas H. Quebbeman [mailto:dquebbeman@acm.org] > Yes, Apple did make an external drive, ISTR is was called UniDrive > but that was also what they called the single plastic 5.25inch drives > for the Apple //e, according to Sellam... So I think Apple may have > goofed and used the name twice. However, these were not Superdrives, > IIRC, they didn't support 1.44MB, only 800MB. Wow, and on a 3.5" disk too... :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 14:08:31 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: R. D. Davis [mailto:rdd@rddavis.org] > reliable and less troublesome. One of them told me that there was no > difference between BSD and Linux, and he firmly believed that BSD was > based on Linux! Another one insisted that I switch to M$-Word from I had a cop-rogrammer at one point who insisted that MacOS was based on MS-DOS. :) Needless to say, he didn't rogramm very well, and was fired eventually. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 14:19:16 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics (Debian) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BE@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Underwood [mailto:nemesis-lists@icequake.net] > That's fine, and it's your choice, but please remember that > since you are > "staying away from the Debian community", you are using a > system that is the > product of others' hard work, and not contributing. If you Well, eventually I'll write my own OS, but until then... ;) > don't wish to > assist the project, IMO you shouldn't be shooting flames and > labels around > when you're dissatisfied with the outcome. Not trying to shoot flames anywhere. I'm just voicing my objection to the naming convention. If I thought it was a serious problem, I would, as you suggest, bring it up with the Debian group. > be better brought up to the Debian project itself. That way, > we can be > aware of views that diverge from the popular "Debian user"'s > view, in order > to attempt to provide a better system for all. I mean, yeah, Since it's a cosmetic thing, and has no impact on usability, I've largely tried to ignore it so far. The system is technically not harmed by it. > it's great > hearing praise and honors from people who love Debian, but we > can't improve > upon our system when all we hear is what we've done right, > and when the grumpy > ones :D post their opinions elsewhere so the larger Debian > developer base never > sees them. Rest assured that if I ever see Debian make a big technical mistake, I'll be the first to let them know. ;) The "name thing," while it annoys me, isn't really worth bothering Debian about. > Dig? This isn't a flame or a reprimand, it's simply a > suggestion. If you > disagree, that is fine. I'm just looking out for my operating system. I don't disagree, but I believe that, being a purely syntactic problem, the Debian people have better things to do with their time than debate, argue about, and perhaps eventually fix it. I'm sure they wasted enough time (several seconds at least ;) changing the name the first time, since, IIRC, the old Debian distributions were "just Linux." Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 14:37:55 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > However, there were some 3rd party external drives that worked with 1.44 > 3.5 disks, and even with 5.25 and PC disks. And those worked with older > Macs (at least back to the Mac Plus, and I think as far back as the 512k > or kE). I think Dayna was an example of a company that made a high > density external drive for the Plus... and they had a model that had a > 5.25 drive in the same case (only R/W pc format IIRC). But I assume such > drives had an init and didn't "just work". Several of those "drive"s were single board CP/M computers, including a few that were Ampro. The CP/M computer could read and write MFM diskettes, and communicate with the Mac. Most used SCSI or serial for the communication. But they were marketed as MFM "DRIVE"s. From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 25 14:46:05 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3CC851AB.320DBC6D@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > > > > Impossible? How? > > > Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... > There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to > handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot air gun... BGAs are easier than fine pitch QFP to solder (though difficult to salvage if done wrong...) > > Granted, not all equipment is build that way, but I am rather pessimistic about > the future of electronics as a hobby. > I also believe the rise in interest in classic computing is due to the fact that > you can tinker with the old machines... > > Regards , Jos > > Peter Wallace From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 14:52:45 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <004701c1ec87$675ef120$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote: > I still have many of my old computer receipts. > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. That was 160K for the DOS 1.00. 512 bytes per sector, 8 sectors per track, 40 tracks, 1 side. (multiply) arguably (rarely done), you could subtract 4.5K if you don't consider the DIRectory to be part of the disk capacity. You could have saved ~$400 by buying the same Tandon TM100-1 drive after-market. You could have saved ~$400 by buying 48K of the RAM aftermarket. You could have saved ~$100 by buying the RF modulator aftermarket. ($1360 for bare computer + $300 for video card + $300 for disk controller + everything else aftermarket) You could have paid more for CP/M-86 or UCSD P-system. (neither available immediately, but in 6 months.) IBM sold Easy-Writer (by John Draper) and VisiCalc. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 25 14:57:36 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <000e01c1ec93$72ca6920$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Andy Holt >Nowadays > You typically have to deal with distributors - little problem for the >experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers what about JDR, JAMECO, BG and a long list of suppliers that take small orders and credit cards? > The edge speed of modern logic is so high that WW is unlikely to work WW works just fine. I've done it and actually WW if done right sometimes exceeds PCB! > In fact even PCBs now need designing using UHF techniques for the same >reason If your going that fast. Then again I did a UHF transverter using dead bug (NO PCB) just recently and it works very well. > SMT devices - and almost everything nowadays is only available as such - Yes, all the really neat new stuff is. However PICs, Amtel cpus, and good old 74xxxs stuff is widely abailable in dips. >are best handled with an expensive soldering station (and BGA devices need >even more expensive equiment). BGA is the extreme and likely more than a trivial project use. > Documentation - though nowadays typically easier to obtain - is often >oversimplified. Maybe, maybe not. For the stuff I do, and have done, it's pretty decent. I've been doing it for over 30 years so I do know the world has changed. Buying fast logic in 1970 to make a 50mhz freq counter was difficult, now it's a gimme. > Programming devices often needs (one or both of) expensive hardware or >extremely expensive software. If your programming GAL, FPGA, and the like, yes. Eproms no problem. Then again I've met some that wanted a high end FPGA to do what I can do in a handful of diodes and a few transistors or less. >I stand by the "almost impossible" statement above. You go in expecting defeat and you will be defeated. I just finished building a PLL system with 100hz resolution at 42mhz in a 1.5inch cube. No exotica, most parts bought from JDR catalog at reasonable prices. >The one main exception to this black picture is the single-chip flash >micro - such as the PIC family or the 8051 derivatives. But working with >these is more like computer programming than hardware design. Maybe but with the right mindset these are increadable resources. They allow one to use programmed micro where you needed a dozen chips or more before. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 25 14:57:54 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: References: <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3CC87BE2.19728.CCFC130@localhost> > > refer to things that didn't/couldn't have internal mass storage > > interfaces as > > toys and allow that things that did/could have them as computers. > An amazingly strange and irrelevant distinction! > Where was the mass storage interface of a 360 physically located? The > disk drives were NOT in the same box as the CPU. > I sincerely doubt that putting the disk controller inside or outside the > CPU box has any significant effect on the Zuse number of the computer. Well, usualy I say it has - Realy computers have at least one additional rack for the disk controler, which adds footage and weight :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 25 14:57:54 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <015e01c1eba8$24928620$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CC87BE2.15792.CCFC120@localhost> > Thanks a MILLION to all who have donated parts and/or money so far to get a > separate dedicated classiccmp server. Many of the components are in (still > missing a few critical things), but I'm still waffeling on whether to put in > IDE hardware mirroring (and if so, whether to do it with a motherboard that > supports this or an addin ide raid card). Decisions decisions.... if anyone > still wants to donate to the cause, my paypal id is jwest@classiccmp.org Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started copying right away. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 25 15:01:54 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <001701c1ec94$0f7ab720$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Bryan Pope > >O. :( What about this other store I just found on the net called "Active >Electronics"? They have a stores located in Woburn and Cambridge? Yep another resource. >I am looking to get a soldering iron plus double-sided copper clab boards, >chemicals and dry-erase (I can't remember the exact name) to draw the >circuit. U-blew-it is good for that. The marker pen for hand drawing etch directly is the ever popular Sharpie (sanford) permanent marker. They are avalable in many widths and work just fine for resist. For the Iron look for a low cost temperature controlled iron, it's worth the price and usually they have fine tips or can have an assortment of tips. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 15:03:15 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > I had a cop-rogrammer at one point who insisted that MacOS was based on > MS-DOS. :) Have you noticed some of the really odd structures in the DIRectory of the early Mac formats? (linked list table (MICROS~1 calls theirs a F.A.T.) made up of 12 bit entries!) Could that be coincidence? No. just a severe shortage of competent systems programmers resulting in a number of programmers and ideas in common. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 25 15:08:52 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: References: <3CC851AB.320DBC6D@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3CC87E74.16574.CD9CCA8@localhost> > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > Allison wrote: > > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > > > Impossible? How? > > Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... > > There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to > > handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot air > gun... > BGAs are easier than fine pitch QFP to solder (though difficult to salvage if > done wrong...) Well, I did also some similar stuff .. still I think the nomber of people doing this is _quite_ small. And unlike the time when a classic soldering Iron even in the 100 Watt roof repair category was ok to start with, only _very_ few people will get into this. > > Granted, not all equipment is build that way, but I am rather pessimistic about > > the future of electronics as a hobby. Jep. > > I also believe the rise in interest in classic computing is due to the fact that > > you can tinker with the old machines... dto. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 25 15:17:57 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: References: <3CC851AB.320DBC6D@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020425151757.00909e50@ubanproductions.com> Peter, I've had this concern myself and have even made processor choices based on my fear of the hand prototyping of BGA parts. Would you please give us a synopsis of your experience and tips hand assembling BGA parts, including tools, temperatures, etc. ? --tnx --tom At 12:46 PM 4/25/02 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> Allison wrote: >> > >> >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) >> > >> > Impossible? How? >> > >> Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... >> There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to >> handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > >Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot air >gun... > >BGAs are easier than fine pitch QFP to solder (though difficult to salvage if >done wrong...) > >Peter Wallace > > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 25 15:20:39 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000201c1ec82$296d0a00$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Andy Holt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Allison > > Sent: 25 April 2002 15:57 > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. > > > > > > From: Andy Holt > > >I'll agree - but perhaps the main reason is that modern components are > > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few > > (Tony? :-) > > > > Impossible? How? > > When I was home-brewing computers about 20 years ago the modern components > of the time were > reasonably easy to obtain > reasonably stable for wire-wrap > easy to solder - or use in sockets > adequately documented (usually :-) > if programmable could be DIY programmed rather than needing an expensive > box > and almost everything worked from a simple 5v supply > > > Nowadays > You typically have to deal with distributors - little problem for the > experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers Digikey is not bad for small orders > The edge speed of modern logic is so high that WW is unlikely to work You can lower the I/O slew rates on programmable parts > In fact even PCBs now need designing using UHF techniques for the same > reason Not all pcbs... > SMT devices - and almost everything nowadays is only available as such - > are best handled with an expensive soldering station (and BGA devices need > even more expensive equiment). A simple soldering iron and a hot air gun are adequate for much surface mount assy... > Documentation - though nowadays typically easier to obtain - is often > oversimplified. > Programming devices often needs (one or both of) expensive hardware or > extremely expensive software. Software for at least Xilinx stuff is free... You can download the configuration to a FPGA with nothing more than a parallel port, or a few I/0 bits... > > I stand by the "almost impossible" statement above. Nonsense! Just people who don't want to bother trying... > > The one main exception to this black picture is the single-chip flash > micro - such as the PIC family or the 8051 derivatives. But working with > these is more like computer programming than hardware design. > > > Generalizing on DIY/homebrewing is not good as exceptions do abound. > Which is why I use terms like "almost impossible" and "few" rather than > absolute statements. > > Andy > > Peter Wallace From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:30:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <006801c1ec98$1bdc6fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Probably straight out of some textbook. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > I had a cop-rogrammer at one point who insisted that MacOS was based on > > MS-DOS. :) > > Have you noticed some of the really odd structures in the DIRectory of the > early Mac formats? > (linked list table (MICROS~1 calls theirs a F.A.T.) made up of 12 bit > entries!) Could that be coincidence? No. just a severe shortage of > competent systems programmers resulting in a number of programmers and > ideas in common. > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:34:54 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <008701c1ec98$a9169c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Gee ... I've never seen one of those ... and I've picked up countless Apple "drives" over the years, hoping to find something useable inside. The best I've ever gotten has been a box + PSU. If I'd ever run into an Ampro product, I'd have remembered. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:37 PM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > However, there were some 3rd party external drives that worked with 1.44 > > 3.5 disks, and even with 5.25 and PC disks. And those worked with older > > Macs (at least back to the Mac Plus, and I think as far back as the 512k > > or kE). I think Dayna was an example of a company that made a high > > density external drive for the Plus... and they had a model that had a > > 5.25 drive in the same case (only R/W pc format IIRC). But I assume such > > drives had an init and didn't "just work". > > Several of those "drive"s were single board CP/M computers, including a > few that were Ampro. The CP/M computer could read and write MFM > diskettes, and communicate with the Mac. Most used SCSI or serial for the > communication. But they were marketed as MFM "DRIVE"s. > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:36:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <004701c1ec87$675ef120$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> Message-ID: <009401c1ec98$de417360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That might prove VERY interesting, particularly if the dates are still legible. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik S. Klein" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:31 PM Subject: RE: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > I still have many of my old computer receipts. > > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. > > I have a notebook full of receipts and invoices that came with a pair of > Altairs. In addition to the costs for the specific machines there are also > receipts for various other hardware items including old Cromemco and SOL > stuff. I'll have to take a more careful look at some point and either scan > those or post the prices here. > > Erik S. Klein > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > On another note, I concede that Byte is not the best price guide, but > > it's the resource I had available. I'm still skeptical the difference > > was THAT great. > > I would tend to agree with you. I remember looking at prices in Byte > and being disgusted at the time, but if you could afford to advertise > there, you weren't small potatoes. > > Computer Shopper is a good place for bargain prices of the day, with > less "print lag" than Byte. One of the things I hated was seeing "*CALL*" > for 80% of prices for what I was interested in, but I know that things > changed too fast to commit to a price 90 days in advance. > > Local sales flyers are also a good place to cull pricing information, if > you can find them. There are a few on the web and I have a couple from > way-back-when. > > One of the cool things about an Atari 800 system a friend gave me when > he moved was that it came with Atari official price sheets, and, since > the donor was an Engineer, he saved every single receipt for every > item he ever bought - $2,500 for the base system (CPU, 32KB RAM, > printer, external serial ports, modem, two floppies, acoustic coupler, > tape drive, manuals, joysticks, etc.) and that was about 80% of MSRP! > It's only one data point, but it is *spot on*. Some real person paid > those real dollars for a machine that is completely documented. > > It's also interesting to look back at what the big iron used to cost. > Somewhere, I have a DEC third-party-reseller flyer listing the RA81 > at $14,000 (we paid $26,000 for one in 1984) - that's about $33/MB, > or about 1650000% more than a modern 100GB drive ($0.002/MB) > > While I don't have a massive pile of pricing data (that isn't in > the backs of magazines), I think it's an interesting category of > data to save. Sometimes the "good old days" don't look so good. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From dquebbeman at acm.org Thu Apr 25 15:45:50 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <000701c1ec9a$2ff13460$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > From: Andy Holt > > Nowadays You typically have to deal with distributors - little > > problem for the experienced, but an obstacle to newcomers > > what about JDR, JAMECO, BG and a long list of suppliers that take > small orders and credit cards? Great for processors, logic gates, linear chips, etc... DigiKey I do lots of business with (well, in the past). But try finding: cross-bar switch telco line interface bond-out version of a processor caller-id decoder and any other number of specialized chips... -dq From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:45:21 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <000101c1ec61$b7f42c20$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <00d401c1ec9a$1e677560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know where you guys who keep harping on this think I said external "disk drive==toy." I did, however, say that if the disk INTERFACE is external, i.e. if the ability to interface to a disk drive is external to the unit, as is the case with the COCO, among many others, then until it has that interface, it's a toy. I doubt that anyone thinks a machine with 16KB of ram or less and no mass storage of any sort is capable of doing much computing. It's more like the early pocket caclulators, though it won't fit in a pocket. Even before microprocessors, there were calculators that would fit in your pocket that would do more useful work than some of those storage-less quasi-video games that were sold in the early '80's. What this implies about the mfg's attitude is that the mfg figured it would do its job without disk storage. If that's the case, and since this was before ethernet, then it's a toy. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Holt" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > From: Doc > > > : > > > You're calling the entire DECstation 5000/2xx line "products intended > > > for the toy market as opposed to one intended to be seen as a computer", > > > since they have no internal mass storage. > > > > I guess he thinks Sun 3/50's are toys too. Sigh. > If they were used with external local disks they were reasonable - in fact > pretty good for the era. > If they were used as diskless workstations they shared the "toy" status of > all such (and of Xstations). > > IMNSHO > > Andy > > From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 15:50:15 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:10 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BF@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Have you noticed some of the really odd structures in the > DIRectory of the > early Mac formats? > (linked list table (MICROS~1 calls theirs a F.A.T.) made up of 12 bit > entries!) Could that be coincidence? No. just a severe shortage of > competent systems programmers resulting in a number of programmers and > ideas in common. Atari's TOS wasn't based on MS-DOS either, and it used the exact same filesystem. To answer your rhetorical question, actually, I hadn't noticed. I did notice that it was significantly different from ODS-2. :) Perhaps I need to be more clear here -- this guy really thought that somewhere underneath the Mac GUI, there was a copy of MS-DOS on every Macintosh. He had nothing to offer as proof, except that no computer could possibly function without it. (I'm really serious here...) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:52:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020425143558.28194.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e901c1ec9b$1b9944c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Some of the disks that Apple pushed off on the unsuspecting public didn't even talk SCSI. I believe that's why they had to maintain such tight control over what you could attach to their early SCSI channels. If it didn't say the right words, it wasn't recognized. Several of the Apple external SCSI drives I've got bying about (and that's all they'll do because of their "special" firmware, use bridge controllers that have Apple-specific firmware. In a couple of cases I've had similar non-Apple boards and substituted the ROM from one of them only to have the drive suddenly spring to life on a diagnostic channel where it previously gave no evidence of its presence. I do not believe Apple did this so much to thwart the user's attempt to use non-Apple products as it was an effort to maintain backwards-compatibility with earlier generations of "SCSI" (their version) hardware. The fact it made it difficult to use non-Apple stuff was a desirable side-effect. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:35 AM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- Christopher Smith wrote: > > What about the Mac plus which had a SCSI interface, but Apple > > discouraged its use (preferring, rather, that you plug your > > hard drive into the floppy interface, IIRC)... > > I think there was exactly one product from Apple that plugged into > the floppy port - a 20MB disk that required strange drivers. I > don't recall the part number, but when Apple came out with a 20MB > SCSI disk, they called it the "20SC" or something similar (IIRC) > to distinguish it from the older product. > > That having been said, I would question how much Apple "discouraged" > people from using the SCSI port on the Mac Plus. There may have > been an alternative and Apple may have pushed it over third-party > disks, but once the stock of strange disks ran out, presuming > the Mac Plus was still being made, I doubt Apple would continue > to urge people to ignore the SCSI port. > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 25 15:56:50 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <3CC87BE2.15792.CCFC120@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. > one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work > 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't > needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created > on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started > copying right away. Hans, Would you mind unplugging half the mirror and reporting results? I've heard several reports from IDE-RAID owners that they were unable to boot either half of a broken mirror. I'd be very happy to hear that they were mistaken. Too cheap to go try it myself.... Doc From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:56:18 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B3@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <00ef01c1ec9b$a5da07a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I guess it depends on what you mean by "straight" serial. Is that as opposed to "gay" serial? They are toys, since they didn't have a disk interface in them. They, in fact, if your description is correct, needed a toy interface to talk to another toy interface that talked to what was probably a smarter computer that had a disk interface in it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:42 AM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > Hey! I did say the mass storage interface had to be internal to the > > "computer" and not necessarily the mass storage devices. > > Sure, but my point was, for instance, the C64 had drives that used > what basically amounts to a straight serial (or is that parallel?) > interface, and that is in the computer. But they're "toys," right? > > > campus is the enclosure, while if it's a desktop, it's pretty > > Is that like "the network is the computer?" :) > No ... but if the interface hardware is in a separate box, then the enclosure in which all these boxes live is the real system enclosure, isn't it. Networks weren't that common on microcomputers in 1980. > > > Besides, though I didn't originally point this out, some of > > you guys have, as > > toys, some of those very machines that you're pointing out > > aren't really toys. > > Are you guys trying to have it both ways? > > Just because they're not toys doesn't make it impossible to play > with them like toys. > > We could just define anything that's not necessary for survival > to be a toy, and be done with it. :) > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:57:54 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <010501c1ec9b$e10b8880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, you can't blame folks for wanting to get something useful out of so expensive a toy. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar the POWERful" To: "Bryan Pope" Cc: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: Re: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > Doesn't the notion of a time line mean anything to you? In the 20 years since > > > the period to which I was referring things have changed considerably since the > > > density of hardware has increased so much. It makes little sense for vendors > > > to sell things separately and become huge and difficult to handle just to sell > > > a little more plastic, when they really don't need to be bigger than a cigar > > > box. > > > > > > The grandkids have Playstations. Adults might want 'em too, since some of the > > > games are pretty slick. I don't relate to that, myself, but I know lots of > > > folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would > > > mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that > > > somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't > > > imagine why one would want to. > > > > Here it is: > > > > Linux for PlayStation 2 Community: Home > > http://www.playstation2-linux.com > > I believe NetBSD also runs on Playstation 2. > > Peace... Sridhar > > > -- > "How do you fight such a savage?" > > "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." > -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 15:59:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Apple external drives (was"Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers)) References: <000701c1ec7a$f751e830$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <010901c1ec9c$1c44aa80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I may have a couple of these in a box downstais. What do they have by way of identifying features? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:02 AM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > The floppy port one was called the Hard Disk 20 (Hard Drive 20?? damn, I > > always screw that up). You are right on the SCSI one (20SC). And there is > > a 2nd product that I am aware of Apple made for the floppy port. An > > external 400k floppy drive. They may have made other external floppies > > for the Mac that use the floppy port as well (800k maybe, but I don't > > think they made a 1.44 external) > > > > There were of course other floppy drives made for floppy ports on the > > IIgs, but I don't know if that is the same functionality, so I don't know > > if those could have been used on the Mac. > > I used to own an external 400k drive, sold it about 10 years ago > along with the old 400k internal drive they let me keep when I > had my Fat mac upgraded to a 512Ke. > > Yes, Apple did make an external drive, ISTR is was called UniDrive > but that was also what they called the single plastic 5.25inch drives > for the Apple //e, according to Sellam... So I think Apple may have > goofed and used the name twice. However, these were not Superdrives, > IIRC, they didn't support 1.44MB, only 800MB. > > When I first saw it, the sounds it made were like a little hard > drive, or so it seemd at the time. > > Third-parties also made external drives; I have one such beast, > can't recall the maker, but I think it has both autoeject in > addition to the quite visible and accessible front-panel eject > button. > > -dq > > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 25 16:13:50 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <00d401c1ec9a$1e677560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't know where you guys who keep harping on this think I said > external "disk drive==toy." I did, however, say that if the disk > INTERFACE is external, i.e. if the ability to interface to a disk > drive is external to the unit, as is the case with the COCO, among > many others, then until it has that interface, it's a toy. I doubt > that anyone thinks a machine with 16KB of ram or less and no mass > storage of any sort is capable of doing much computing. It's more like > the early pocket caclulators, though it won't fit in a pocket. Even > before microprocessors, there were calculators that would fit in your > pocket that would do more useful work than some of those storage-less > quasi-video games that were sold in the early '80's. > > What this implies about the mfg's attitude is that the mfg figured it > would do its job without disk storage. If that's the case, and since > this was before ethernet, then it's a toy. Does this mean that a network-capable controllerless machine isn't a toy? Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Thu Apr 25 16:19:56 2002 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: IRIX Message-ID: <56596014.68974A6E.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Dan Wright wrote: >Tarsi said: > >Though, I think any machines that are truly on-topic wouldn't be able to run >IRIX 6.5 anyway ;) > >- Dan Wright >(dtwright@uiuc.edu) >(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > I've successfully installed 6.5 on an Indy with a 2 Gig drive. Barebones with only 2 Gig, but it runs:) -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig & 40Gig, flatbed. Heathkit H-89A, 64K RAM, hard and soft-sectored floppies, SigmaSoft and Systems 256K RAM Drive/Print Spooler/Graphics board HDOS 2 & CP/M 2.2.03/2.2.04 __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From sloboyko at yahoo.com Thu Apr 25 16:23:41 2002 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020425212341.66441.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> I've found it useful to show prices of common things or people's salaries when stating "X cost Y in year Z", like: -A typical car cost X in Y -A middle class home cost X in Y -A teacher generally made X in Y This gives some graspable perspective to younger people. For example, I think you could buy 4 or 5 loaded Cadillacs for the cost of a PDP-8 in 1965. Of course, these values and prices aren't stable, either; I read an interesting article about the constant value of gold. In George Washington's time, an ounce of gold would buy you a very good (but not super-expensive) suit. It still does! --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote: > > I still have many of my old computer receipts. > > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 > for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with > an RF Modulator. > > That was 160K for the DOS 1.00. 512 bytes per > sector, 8 sectors per > track, 40 tracks, 1 side. (multiply) arguably > (rarely done), you could > subtract 4.5K if you don't consider the DIRectory to > be part of the disk > capacity. > > You could have saved ~$400 by buying the same Tandon > TM100-1 drive > after-market. > You could have saved ~$400 by buying 48K of the RAM > aftermarket. > You could have saved ~$100 by buying the RF > modulator aftermarket. > ($1360 for bare computer + $300 for video card + > $300 for disk controller > + everything else aftermarket) > > > You could have paid more for CP/M-86 or UCSD > P-system. (neither available > immediately, but in 6 months.) > IBM sold Easy-Writer (by John Draper) and VisiCalc. > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 15:18:49 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> from "Douglas H. Quebbeman" at Apr 24, 2 09:50:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2238 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/1c42d813/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 15:20:18 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <006701c1ebfc$f885f8a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 24, 2 08:00:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/bb52309b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 15:25:14 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <008101c1ec08$c3f6a7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 24, 2 09:24:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 748 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/18f75744/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 15:30:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <008f01c1ec09$37a05600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 24, 2 09:28:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/f8b7986a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 15:42:43 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe" at Apr 25, 2 07:15:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1317 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/f70e5d2a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 15:55:47 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000201c1ec61$b84fb9a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at Apr 25, 2 03:01:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/6bdaa955/attachment.ksh From eklein at impac.com Thu Apr 25 16:28:04 2002 From: eklein at impac.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005d01c1eca0$17b169f0$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> My bad on the disk size. My memory gets worse and worse. I eventually did buy TM100-2s for that machine and expanded it with a Quadboard and bulk-purchased 4164s. A surplus B&W composite monitor served for a bit before a Princeton RGB display replaced it. I wish I'd have saved that machine. I haven't seen one with a lower serial number since. IBM was pricey in the day, but they were competitive. You still pay nearly $3K for cutting edge. Erik S. Klein -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:53 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote: > I still have many of my old computer receipts. > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. That was 160K for the DOS 1.00. 512 bytes per sector, 8 sectors per track, 40 tracks, 1 side. (multiply) arguably (rarely done), you could subtract 4.5K if you don't consider the DIRectory to be part of the disk capacity. You could have saved ~$400 by buying the same Tandon TM100-1 drive after-market. You could have saved ~$400 by buying 48K of the RAM aftermarket. You could have saved ~$100 by buying the RF modulator aftermarket. ($1360 for bare computer + $300 for video card + $300 for disk controller + everything else aftermarket) You could have paid more for CP/M-86 or UCSD P-system. (neither available immediately, but in 6 months.) IBM sold Easy-Writer (by John Draper) and VisiCalc. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 16:23:36 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3CC851AB.320DBC6D@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Apr 25, 2 08:57:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/ccb53aed/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 16:04:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3CC81DF3.8F9A11AD@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 25, 2 08:17:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 880 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/d80bee83/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 16:08:08 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3CC81F87.74C43C70@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Apr 25, 2 09:23:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020425/e1b53c80/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 25 16:36:50 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BF@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC89312.24576.D2A53E4@localhost> > > Have you noticed some of the really odd structures in the > > DIRectory of the > > early Mac formats? > > (linked list table (MICROS~1 calls theirs a F.A.T.) made up of 12 bit > > entries!) Could that be coincidence? No. just a severe shortage of > > competent systems programmers resulting in a number of programmers and > > ideas in common. > Atari's TOS wasn't based on MS-DOS either, and it used the exact > same filesystem. I have to object here. TOS had with GEMDOS a part which is a straight clone of MS DOS. Not more nor less. > To answer your rhetorical question, actually, I hadn't noticed. > I did notice that it was significantly different from ODS-2. :) > Perhaps I need to be more clear here -- this guy really thought > that somewhere underneath the Mac GUI, there was a copy of MS-DOS > on every Macintosh. He had nothing to offer as proof, except that > no computer could possibly function without it. (I'm really > serious here...) Well .. weired... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 25 16:36:50 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: References: <3CC87BE2.15792.CCFC120@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC89312.28537.D2A53D5@localhost> > > Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. > > one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work > > 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't > > needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created > > on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started > > copying right away. > Would you mind unplugging half the mirror and reporting results? I've > heard several reports from IDE-RAID owners that they were unable to boot > either half of a broken mirror. I'd be very happy to hear that they > were mistaken. > Too cheap to go try it myself.... Jaja ... Wait a moment Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Apr 25 16:41:41 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > They are toys, since they didn't have a disk interface in > them. They, in > fact, if your description is correct, needed a toy interface > to talk to > another toy interface that talked to what was probably a > smarter computer that > had a disk interface in it. That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an external IDE disk wouldn't count. As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand. They spoke a pretty simple serial protocol, too, such that you can basically plug them into other systems (Intel Linux machines, at least) and build simple applications to talk to them, and they handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't need to -- so there are good points to them. That being said, if I understand your other post properly, once the drive is there, you would possibly not consider it a toy any more, whether the drive is external or not, and regardless of how it's driven. Or am I way off? Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the time? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 16:48:06 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <998FEBD9C16DD211881200A0C9D61AD704468A17@acdfwx3.acdin.de.ittind.com> Message-ID: <3CC87996.D05D6477@jetnet.ab.ca> "Messick, Gary" wrote: > > I get a kick out of the fact that he made the electrodes > > in the shape of the old atom symbol they used to use in > > the advertisements. Does anyone remember the name of the > > little cartoon character that the GE advertisements had > > for the atom? > > Dwight > > > > > Reddy Kilowatt! > Was that not the character for electricy rather than the Atom? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 16:55:18 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000701c1ec9a$2ff13460$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CC87B46.F2BEE18@jetnet.ab.ca> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > Great for processors, logic gates, linear chips, etc... DigiKey > I do lots of business with (well, in the past). > > But try finding: > > cross-bar switch > telco line interface > bond-out version of a processor > caller-id decoder > > and any other number of specialized chips... Like memory! (DigiKey) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 25 17:06:51 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Several of those "drive"s were single board CP/M computers, including a >few that were Ampro. The CP/M computer could read and write MFM >diskettes, and communicate with the Mac. Most used SCSI or serial for the >communication. But they were marketed as MFM "DRIVE"s. I believe that the Indus GT drives for the Atari and Commodore 8bits fall into this catagory. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 25 17:20:58 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: <10204250803.ZM4489@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Apr 25, 2002 07:03:09 am" Message-ID: <200204252220.g3PMKw3V024525@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > On Apr 24, 21:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Isn't it a bit much to call XXDP+ an OS. > > DECX-11 is closer... XXDP's pretty dumb. > > I've always thought of XXDP as the OS that DECX-11 runs under. > > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager More like the program loader for the OS... 8-). At least CP/M had better editors available than XXDP... Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 17:23:13 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: Message-ID: <3CC881D1.948399FA@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > The main reason for DIY is IMNSHO for the *fun* of learning. And that > > Yes, it never fails to amaze me that there are people out there who > don't enjoy learning. The day I stop learning will be the day I'm '6 feet > under' and not before ! Hands Tony the Book 'Grave digging made easy from inside the coffin for dummies'. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 25 17:31:28 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: SW bugs/interactions With Solaris In-Reply-To: <001201c1e9dc$b7e37a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 22, 2002 03:04:32 am" Message-ID: <200204252231.g3PMVSnc024974@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > Remember, I'm coming from a background with Sun hardware/software that was > unavailable 8-10 days per month due to software patch side-effects and other > causes having to do with the OS. That's the basis of my *nix aversion. Sounds like some questionable admin/development procedures to me. Software patches put in production without being tested with the os version they're running on... OS patches without checking application issues. Anyway both sets of patches should be backed out within 24 hours of getting the SW bug, IMHO. What version of Solaris are you talking about -- or is this an old SunOS 4.x situation? Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Apr 25 17:35:07 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000a01c1ec69$713b08a0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> <3CC851AB.320DBC6D@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3CC8849B.9070603@dragonsweb.org> Jos Dreesen wrote: > Allison wrote: > > >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? :-) > >>Impossible? How? >> > > Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... > There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to > handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > The idea is that we're all supposed to be so rich and prosperous as a result of billions being thrown at dot-commers a few years ago that we can easily afford the necessary equipment. As if. Still, where there's a will, there's a way. > Granted, not all equipment is build that way, but I am rather pessimistic about > the future of electronics as a hobby. > I also believe the rise in interest in classic computing is due to the fact that > you can tinker with the old machines... That's true enough, and there are still plenty of new things that can be done with old stuff. A lot of the modern improvements are just to reduce size, power consumption and manufacturing costs, which doesn't necessarily stop you from useful experimenting with old tech. jbdigriz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 17:41:24 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <3CC88614.F2149DB5@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > It may be well to keep in mind that the Altair was certainly not designed to > > be a computer. Only the determination of a fanatic made it into one. > > Then perhaps you could tell us just what it was designed as. And find a > reasonable definition of 'computer' that excludes an 8080 + memory + a > way to get data in/out of memory (the front panel). > > -tony Or a PDP-8 with TTY for that matter. Infact I have a FPGA computer (on my desk here under a pile of papers with a wopping 32 12 bit words of memory and a serial port and FPGA cpu. Almost as fast a 8 too. :) This is bare bones machine but it does have I/O , memory and a CPU. The 486 makes a OK tty emulator and the new 700 MHZ machine is just used to download the software to the REAL Computer. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 25 17:44:50 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Apr 21, 2002 06:19:36 pm" Message-ID: <200204252244.g3PMioL6025495@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > A fairly trivial case in point - IBM's 24-bit MCA graphics adapter - > the "Sabine" card set. Several RS/6000 developers that I know claim > that the guy (singular) who developed it designed a prototype, wrote a > driver, and redesigned the hardware to compensate for limitations in his > code. Mark swears there were several cycles of that. The result was a > piece of hardware and its driver that couldn't be ported even to the > next version of AIX. > > > Doc Is that why AIX 4 dropped support for the graphics adapter? Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 18:00:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <015301c1ecac$fbefa080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It was designed as a TOY. It first appeared in an article in a niche magazine specializing TOYS. Since no software, means for getting it in, means for getting the results of any processing (remember...computers are for AUTOMATIC data processing?) Its purpose clearly was to make a little money, which it probably would have done, irrespective of what others did with it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > It may be well to keep in mind that the Altair was certainly not designed to > > be a computer. Only the determination of a fanatic made it into one. > > Then perhaps you could tell us just what it was designed as. And find a > reasonable definition of 'computer' that excludes an 8080 + memory + a > way to get data in/out of memory (the front panel). > > -tony > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Apr 25 18:06:47 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <200204251231.FAA08326@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3CC88C07.578FCB40@gifford.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > There's also a NetBSD port for Dreamcast. Haven't gotten around to trying it > yet (I actually went out and bought a Dreamcast when I heard it was being > discontinued because that actually made it more interesting to me ;-). I did the same thing, buying a Dreamcast after it was discontinued. But look what happened with the Vectrex: I bought one in 1983, just after it was discontinued, and now it's a highly sought-after machine. Just wish I'd bought the 3D imager, too... -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From mbg at TheWorld.com Thu Apr 25 18:08:11 2002 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Anyone Care About RT-11 Message-ID: <200204252308.TAA6785175@shell.TheWorld.com> Jerome, rather than try to compile a list of those who have RT-11 CDs from Tim, why not simply make those occasional announcements to the list... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 18:11:02 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <015b01c1ecae$78e012e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ... when was that, Tony? How long after the original CoCo was sold before the whole "shootin' match" could be bought at the RS? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > > I keep coming back to the distinction between what the systems in question did > > as shipped by the mfg, vs. what they COULD be persuaded to do with the > > application of appropriate pressure. > > I don't know what planet you're from, but back here on Earth, Radio Shack > sold the CoCo, a disk drive for the CoCo, OS-9 configured for the CoCo > and all the languages I mentioned. > > In other words, this was _exaxtly_ what the manufacturer said you could > do with it. Buy the CoCo. Buy the disk drive _from the same company_. Buy > OS-9 _from the same company agains_. Plug it all together, type in one > command ('DOS' IIRC) and you were running a real operating system. It did > not necessarily involve any 3rd party hardware or home hacking. > My point in this case is that a long time went by between when RS put out the "toy" version, the "original," and when the other hardware/etc. was complete, just as did the folks from Commodore, Atari, and others, all of whom were primarily in the toy market. Once it became apparent that money could be made by selling add-ons for their toys, they did that. Commodore, among others, made it very difficult to use conventional hardware, but that didn't stop them from pushing their own stuff. As I've mentioned before, Commodore tried to prevent folks from using conventional (Centronics-interfaced) printers, so a guy here in Denver made millions on an adapter from the silly GPIB version they supported to an Epson-compatible interface. The Commodore folks behaved just as toy vendors in other areas did, limiting their toys to be used as they intended. I know DEC did that to some extent, but their prices clearly defined their products as being outside the toy market. Dick From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 25 18:17:07 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <3CC89312.28537.D2A53D5@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3CC8AA93.3291.D86260F@localhost> > > > Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. > > > one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work > > > 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't > > > needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created > > > on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started > > > copying right away. > > Would you mind unplugging half the mirror and reporting results? I've > > heard several reports from IDE-RAID owners that they were unable to boot > > either half of a broken mirror. I'd be very happy to hear that they > > were mistaken. > > Too cheap to go try it myself.... > Jaja ... > Wait a moment Ok, second disk detatched ... system boots, controler yells, system works. second drive as second installed, first removed, reaction as above. Now the rebuild do I test after VCF ... I got a job to finish. BTW: Yall, keep in Mind, all VCFe speeches are available live over the net ! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 25 18:29:13 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020425151757.00909e50@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > Peter, > > I've had this concern myself and have even made processor choices based > on my fear of the hand prototyping of BGA parts. > > Would you please give us a synopsis of your experience and tips hand > assembling BGA parts, including tools, temperatures, etc. ? What I do for BGA protos is this: 1. Solder the BGA(s) first! This is for a couple of reasons, its easier to inspect the soldering, and if you mess up the BGA soldering you can start with a fresh board and not have to remove the BGA part. (Though I have removed and resoldered BGAs with pretty good luck) 2. Build a "frame" around the BGA by soldering pieces of scrap circuit board material on all 4 sides of the BGA, leaving a little (5 mill) clearance on each side. I do this with pieces of paper as a shim that I later remove. This is the most critical part, the BGA part must be located in the right position on the PC by the frame. The 5 mill clearanec on the side is so the BGA can "float and settle" when the balls melt -surface tension will bring it into perfect alignment with the PCB pads. I do the frame alignment by setting the BGA on edge (vertical) against each of my frame pieces and checking the ball/PCB pad alignment. 3. Put _A LOT_ of rosin core flux on the PC BGA pads. You dont need any solder with the common solder ball type BGAs they have plenty in the balls. 4. Heat from behind with a heat gun. I use a standard $59 Granger heat gun. This requires some pratice to avoid overheating the board. You can pratice by soldering small SMT parts to scrap or used PCBs. Moving the heat gun around in a small circular pattern will help avoid PCB damage. When the Rosin flux really begins to smoke, the temperature is just about right. You can see when the BGA solder balls melt, because the BGA chip will sink about 1/2 mm. When you see it sink, Your done! 5. Checking: When the PCB is cool you need to remove the flux and inspect the soldering. If the BGA is soldered properly the solder balls will have a squashed appearance on all 4 sides of the BGA and you should be able see through all the interball rows in both directions by along the underside of the BGA. If the balls are not melted enough, you can re-apply flux and re-heat The worst thing that can happen is that your frame is mis-aligned so far that the balls ended up stikinf to 2 pads and have have merged underneath the BGA. In that case you need to remove the BGA and try again (with a new part) I have not been 100% successful but am close to 85% good solders first time... > > --tnx > --tom > > At 12:46 PM 4/25/02 -0700, you wrote: > >On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > >> Allison wrote: > >> > > >> >almost impossible for the home builder ... and only the odd few (Tony? > :-) > >> > > >> > Impossible? How? > >> > > >> Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... > >> There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to > >> handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > > > >Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot > air > >gun... > > > >BGAs are easier than fine pitch QFP to solder (though difficult to salvage if > >done wrong...) > > > >Peter Wallace > > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 25 18:35:53 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Apr 25, 2 06:06:51 pm" Message-ID: <200204252335.QAA26370@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Several of those "drive"s were single board CP/M computers, including a > >few that were Ampro. The CP/M computer could read and write MFM > >diskettes, and communicate with the Mac. Most used SCSI or serial for the > >communication. But they were marketed as MFM "DRIVE"s. > > I believe that the Indus GT drives for the Atari and > Commodore 8bits fall into this catagory. The Atari Indus GT was undoubtedly MFM, but the Commodore Indus is definitely GCR (I own one). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 18:30:20 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <017601c1ecb1$2a710120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> comments inline ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > They are toys, since they didn't have a disk interface in > > them. They, in > > fact, if your description is correct, needed a toy interface > > to talk to > > another toy interface that talked to what was probably a > > smarter computer that > > had a disk interface in it. > > That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The > point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface > that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky > discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require > too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an > external IDE disk wouldn't count. > An external IDE drive would be hazardous thing to use because of cable length. > > As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with > the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand. > Yes, these things were out there. I remember I had a 2 MHz 6809 in my printer at a time when I was using a 1 MHz 6502. It seemed ironic that the computer hardware in my printer cost on the order of 5x what the hardware in my computer had cost. Of course, I designed/built my own hardware, so it didn't cost as much as it might because I was thrifty. > > They spoke a pretty simple serial protocol, too, such that you > can basically plug them into other systems (Intel Linux machines, > at least) and build simple applications to talk to them, and they > handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't > need to -- so there are good points to them. > What you may have had, then, is a toy with a computer as a peripheral. That was probably quite a bit after the time reference of 1980. > > That being said, if I understand your other post properly, once > the drive is there, you would possibly not consider it a toy > any more, whether the drive is external or not, and regardless > of how it's driven. Or am I way off? > What I am focused on is where the intelligence to run the I/O resides. Once microprocessors and especially the single-chippers, with integrated peripherals as well as memory and the CPU, became cheaper, due to higher density of logic and the economies of scale, their use in intelligent peripherals made great deal of sense. However, it resulted in ugly and awkward packaging, which was addressed even later with more elegant interface standards, say, by 1986, with the standardization of SCSI. However, much of the time, the intelligence didn't reside in the main box because it was a toy. Only with the addition of considerable additional resources and intelligence did the things function as computer systems. Technically they were computer systems by most definitions, but their architecture, particularly as viewed from the outside, was that of a toy rather than that of a designed-from-the-ground-up computer. In other words, their computing ability, when not applied to playing the games for which they were designed, was just an aside. > > Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the > time? > I'd tread lightly around that subject, unless your Atari or whatever, had a 9-track drive in '80 or so. > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 25 18:36:49 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr25.073929edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <018f01c1ecb2$129e90c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This thread has become shanghaied down a path different that the one I intended to take. My point was that you didn't have to write code when you bought a computer that was intended to be used as a computer in order just to get it to run your OS and applications. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you could buy an FDC from the same vendor as provided your CPU and minimal I/O, and then you could be off and running. It didn't matter whose memory you used, so long as it worked at the speed required by the CPU. If you wanted to pick just any combination of boards, yes, you were on your own. It took a real fool to put himself in that situation since the cost wasn't much different. between manufacturers of similar cards for the simple reason that the manufacturers had to compete for your business. Sure, some vendors "locked you in" with their odd-ball hardware/software combinations, but you didn't have to fall into that trap. When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work would it do with the $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could you write and compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any meaningful way? Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? What software was there, that you could install and use? How and where would you install it? When you finally decided you had to build your own hardware and write your own software, wouldn't it have been easier to use a wirewrap card and a CPU chip and start from scratch rather than having to work around all that stupid, Stupid, STUPID hardware they used? ... hardware you had to work around, probably had to disable, before you could do anything sensible? That certainly was the case if you wanted a reasonable display. That certainly was the case with the TRS-80. Still, people did it. People paid in cash and endless evenings and weekends. Now, if they wanted to be amused, making something into what it was not, that's fine, but if you wanted a computer, the hardware didn't cost less if you used one of the "toy"-based systems, and the software wasn't any more available than if you'd used a "real" computer. It probably would have cost less to use an Apple with a 6809 board in it (yes, there were some of those) than to make a COCO into a comparable computer. IIRC, RS computers were always priced near the top, while their quality was near the bottom. For something equal to, say, and Apple][,. I'd say you'd pay nearly twice what a well-purchased Apple][ would have cost for a RS product of nearly similar actual capabilities. RS never did build something genuinely intended for expansion though, did they? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:39 AM Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > >Open the box. Open the S-100 mainframe. Open the individual card boxes, > >extract the cards and plug them into the mainframe. Open the carton the in > >which the FDD enclosure traveled. Extract the enclosure, insert the 8" floppy > >drives. Attach the cables to their respective sockets, at each end, attach > >power cables, power on the Terminal, power up the S-100 box, Power up the > >FDD's, insert the boot disk, watch the lights bling, ... WHAT? no display? > >... oh yeah... attach the serial cable to the terminal. repeat the process... > >and 64k CP/M 2.2 is booted. Total elapsed time, 4 weeks of shopping, 1 week > >for shipping, 1.5 hours fiddling with boxes, cables, enclosures, etc. 45 > >seconds to boot the 1st time. ... done... Cost? well, the two Mistubishi 8" > >DSDD drives cost $479 each, the terminal cost $753, shipped the CCS hardware, > >including CPU, FDD, 64KB DRAM, 4-additional serial port card, 4 parallel in + > >4 parallel out card, mainframe, FD box (the one I sent you) $1479, I think. I > >don't remember what the shipping cost was, but that was in '79. Later the > >next year I attached an ST-506 drive. > > Looking at the above and then looking at how one would expand > a CoCo or any of the early 'home' micros, I fail to see the > difference other than the orientation and placement of the exansion > buses. Both required you to add expansion cards for greater > functionality. One happened to house the cards internally while the > other didn't. You list a total of $3190 for the system above, that's > a far cry from the $599 for the TRS-80 Model I or $399 for the > original CoCo. Another thing to remember is that you list a system > made up primarily of one vendor's cards, that being California > Computer Systems. This made things quite easy, especially concerning > booting CP/M. Take a more typical hobbyist S-100 bus machine though, > with it's mix-and-match selection of S-100 bus boards, and the new > owner will likely have to spend quite a bit more time than 45 seconds > to get it to boot the OS for the first time. Did you have to expand > the CoCo or other 'home' 8bit machines to do useful things? No. Did > you have to spend time expanding most S-100 bus machines in order to > do anything useful? Yes. The higher level of integration coupled > with the much lower price is what opened the market up. Both systems > are 'real' computers, both capable of similar uses, they're just > aimed at different markets. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Apr 25 18:40:13 2002 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Vintage Comp Ads and Prices Message-ID: Just found this: www.adflip.com a huge archive of print advertising covering many decades. Entering 'compter' into the search box returned hundreds of ads, starting with a full page National Geographic spread for the IBM 604 from 1951... many many other vintage systems from the 70s are there too, many with prices. Cheers John From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 25 18:44:37 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Unix versions" (Apr 25, 18:20) References: <200204252220.g3PMKw3V024525@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <10204260044.ZM5790@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 25, 18:20, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On Apr 24, 21:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > Isn't it a bit much to call XXDP+ an OS. > > > DECX-11 is closer... XXDP's pretty dumb. > > > > I've always thought of XXDP as the OS that DECX-11 runs under. > More like the program loader for the OS... 8-). > > At least CP/M had better editors available than XXDP... Yeah, you mean EDLIN :-) TECO in XXDP is not my favourite editor! I'm slightly puzzled by what you say about DEC X-11, though. My exposure to it and XXDP is only in the form of the diagnostics available to end users and third-party service organisations, and I suspect there's more to it than that. The reason I think of XXDP as the OS and X-11 as the, well, application in a way, is that all I see are the X-11 modules to run build and series of tests, whereas XXDP includes the monitor, system handlers etc (as well as the diagnostic programs and utilites, of course). To me, that's the OS. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spc at conman.org Thu Apr 25 18:46:03 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 25, 2002 04:41:41 PM Message-ID: <200204252346.TAA18294@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christopher Smith once stated: > > That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The > point, though, is that they plug directly into an interface > that's already on the machine, so we would get into the sticky > discussion of how "directly" a drive must be handled. Require > too much of the logic to be in the computer, and suddenly an > external IDE disk wouldn't count. > > As an aside, I've heard of interesting things being done with > the disk drive "computers," though I can't think of any off hand. The CPU in the disk drives could be programmed and I've heard stories of programming two such drives to handle copying files between them, leaving the main computer free to do other things, including being off entirely. -spc (Which is pretty neat actually ... ) From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 25 18:50:21 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <3CC8AA93.3291.D86260F@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > BTW: Yall, keep in Mind, all VCFe speeches are available live over the > net ! How do I watch these, and when are they, please? Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Apr 25 18:55:38 2002 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <56596014.68974A6E.CF1A260E@netscape.net> References: <56596014.68974A6E.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20020425235528.GB340306@uiuc.edu> Bob Mason said: > > I've successfully installed 6.5 on an Indy with a 2 Gig drive. Barebones with only 2 Gig, but it runs:) Is an Indy on-topic? I thought they were from about 1994-95... Though, an Indigo is old enough and it will run 6.5, but not well ;) the quote I've heard applied to it is "slower then pissing tar", I believe... - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 18:56:34 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <015301c1ecac$fbefa080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 25, 2 05:00:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 985 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020426/7c31b004/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 25 19:17:00 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:11 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204252346.TAA18294@conman.org> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Apr 25, 2 07:46:03 pm" Message-ID: <200204260017.RAA26612@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The CPU in the disk drives could be programmed and I've heard stories of > programming two such drives to handle copying files between them, leaving > the main computer free to do other things, including being off entirely. I do this all the time with Fast Hackem. To make multiple backups, just keep inserting disks and the drive automatically starts up. Once Fast Hackem has loaded the drives with their copy programs, I just power the 128 totally off. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! ----------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 25 19:16:31 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204252335.QAA26370@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200204252335.QAA26370@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > >Several of those "drive"s were single board CP/M computers, including a >> >few that were Ampro. The CP/M computer could read and write MFM >> >diskettes, and communicate with the Mac. Most used SCSI or serial for the >> >communication. But they were marketed as MFM "DRIVE"s. >> >> I believe that the Indus GT drives for the Atari and >> Commodore 8bits fall into this catagory. > >The Atari Indus GT was undoubtedly MFM, but the Commodore Indus is definitely >GCR (I own one). Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was referring to the Indus having it's own onboard Z80 and being a computer in it's own right. It makes sense that the Commodore Indus would be GCR. Nice drives though..I've got two of the Atari version. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 19:17:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <018f01c1ecb2$129e90c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 25, 2 05:36:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020426/d84654d0/attachment.ksh From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Thu Apr 25 19:33:10 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics (Debian) Message-ID: Doug: > Never had a problem with Debian, other than its name... > Is it an acronym for something? It's rather lame, but: "Since many people have asked, Debian is pronounced 'deb ee n'. It comes from the names of the creator of Debian, Ian Murdock, and his wife, Debra." :) However, you can get Linux-based Debian distributions such as "Corel", "Storm", "Progeny", and such. The Debian package system and architecture is not tied explicitly to the official Debian project (and debatable policies) alone. Chris: > the Debian people have better things to do with their time than debate, > argue about, and perhaps eventually fix it. This is possible, but if you offered a reasonable and serious rebuttal to their policy (or portions thereof), I would doubt that anybody would think twice before taking it into consideration. In other words, if you have something to say, it would help to tell it to the people who can do something about it! :) -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From arlen.michaels at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 25 19:44:51 2002 From: arlen.michaels at sympatico.ca (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: AEHD 3.5" External disk drive for Apple In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467880@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: If anyone can use it, I have what seems to be just the electronics from one of these AEHD drives. That is, it's the circuit board only: no drive mechanism, no enclosure. Arlen Michaels > From: David Woyciesjes > > This has been spoken for.. > > >> ---------- >> From: David Woyciesjes >> >> This reminds me... I have here an Applied Engineering AEHD 3.5" >> External disk drive for Apple Computers. But the machine it's from is long >> gone. >> Who wants it? Say, $20 for me to pack it and ship it out. >> >> -- >> --- David A Woyciesjes From philip at awale.qc.ca Thu Apr 25 18:43:42 2002 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146785F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On 24-Apr-2002 David Woyciesjes wrote: > 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex Covet covet. *sigh* I'm in Qu?bec. -Philip From torquil at rockbridge.net Thu Apr 25 19:59:03 2002 From: torquil at rockbridge.net (Torquil MacCorkle III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: IRIX References: <56596014.68974A6E.CF1A260E@netscape.net> <20020425235528.GB340306@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <16e001c1ecbd$9178c630$0200a8c0@tm2000> Uh, Maybe 'slower than pissing tar' on a R4000. But my R4600SC is pretty zippy in 6.5. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Wright" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:55 PM Subject: Re: Re: IRIX > Bob Mason said: > > > > I've successfully installed 6.5 on an Indy with a 2 Gig drive. Barebones with only 2 Gig, but it runs:) > > Is an Indy on-topic? I thought they were from about 1994-95... Though, an > Indigo is old enough and it will run 6.5, but not well ;) the quote I've > heard applied to it is "slower then pissing tar", I believe... > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 25 19:58:23 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics (Debian) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Ryan Underwood wrote: > It's rather lame, but: > > "Since many people have asked, Debian is pronounced 'deb ee n'. It > comes from the names of the creator of Debian, Ian Murdock, and his > wife, Debra." > > :) Wow. That was a gigantic anticlimax. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 25 20:02:38 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <018f01c1ecb2$129e90c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr25.073929edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <018f01c1ecb2$129e90c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >This thread has become shanghaied down a path different that the one I >intended to take. Likely due to too broad of a blanket statement concerning what constitutes a computer. A few machines that I do feel fall more into the realm of 'toys' vice true computers, mainly due to their total lack of built-in I/O interfaces are extremely lowcost systems such as the ZX-81 and the Aquarius. Both have bus extensions but the only built-in I/O they have is their video out and cassette interfaces. The ZX-81 takes another step back by not even offering program loading by way of ROM cartridges, which the Aquarius does but by the time the Aquarius was released it was well behind everything else out there. There's certainly no disputing the impact that machines such as those from Sinclair had as far as introducing people to computers through their availability though. >My point was that you didn't have to write code when you bought a computer >that was intended to be used as a computer in order just to get it to run your >OS and applications. Personally, I consider the SS-50 bus boxes to be some of the better designs as far as being able to start using the machine with minimum fuss or additional requirements. As early as 1976 they included a ROM monitor, from Motorolla, and enough I/O to connect a serial terminal. >When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work would it do with the >$399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could you write and >compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any meaningful way? >Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? What software >was there, that you could install and use? How and where would you install >it? A base CoCo, without any type of expansion, could run non-game applications such as the following: - Audio Spectrum Analyzer (real time waveform display of audio input) - Color Scripsit for the Color Computer (word processing program) - Typing Tutor - Videotex There are plenty more but these are the ones that I own that I can think of off the top of my head. All are in cartridge format so they don't require a disk drive. Of course, there's always the internal BASIC. Without that addition of the disk drive, you could always use the cassette interface. There was even a version of the CoCo1 that was sold as a terminal with the Videotex software in it's ROM vice BASIC. >nearly similar actual capabilities. RS never did build something genuinely >intended for expansion though, did they? Yes, RS liked to do odd things so that you couldn't expand thier systems. They didn't do it to all of their systems though. Except for the console cased 1000EX/HX, most of the 1000 series are pretty expandable, nearly equal to any other XT-clone as long as you knew some of the odd quirks to watch out for. The Model 2000 has 4 16bit expansion slots, though unfortunately few boards were made to work in it. Others such as the Model III and 4 had minimal expansion options internal but came standard with cassette, serial, parallel and external bus extensions. RS was actually one of the earlier adopters of built-in I/O ports while other micros still required you to purchase them seperately. Their SL/TL series even had built-in DAC's for sound input/output about the time the SoundBlaster and AdLib cards were becoming popular. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Apr 25 20:36:36 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Apr 25, 2 08:16:31 pm" Message-ID: <200204260136.SAA19568@stockholm.ptloma.edu> >>The Atari Indus GT was undoubtedly MFM, but the Commodore Indus is definitely >>GCR (I own one). >Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was referring to the >Indus having it's own onboard Z80 and being a computer in it's own >right. It makes sense that the Commodore Indus would be GCR. Nice >drives though..I've got two of the Atari version. Ah, okie. Yes, the Indus is excellent. Does the Atari version have the ROM disk that the Commodore version does? (For those not in the know, the Commodore Indus GT drive has a drive 1 [LOAD"$1",8] with DOS Wedge, a fast loader and some other utilities permanently in drive ROM that can just be loaded out of the drive instantaneously.) The Commodore Indus GT also came with some (moderately pathetic) office software, but it was an interesting bonus. I also like the fact that the Indus GT works 100% with my Epyx FastLoad cartridge, which I will *not* part with. There are other and bigger fastload and freezer cartridges, but the FastLoad is reliable, cheap to replace, and enormously compatible (I think I can count on one hand the programs in my library that won't cooperate with it). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. ------------------------------------ From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Apr 25 21:07:53 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20020425151757.00909e50@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020425210753.009af320@ubanproductions.com> >What I do for BGA protos is this: > >1. Solder the BGA(s) first! >This is for a couple of reasons, its easier to inspect the soldering, and if >you mess up the BGA soldering you can start with a fresh board and not have to >remove the BGA part. (Though I have removed and resoldered BGAs with pretty >good luck) > >2. Build a "frame" around the BGA by soldering pieces of scrap circuit board >material on all 4 sides of the BGA, leaving a little (5 mill) clearance on >each side. I do this with pieces of paper as a shim that I later remove. This >is the most critical part, the BGA part must be located in the right position >on the PC by the frame. The 5 mill clearanec on the side is so the BGA can >"float and settle" when the balls melt -surface tension will bring it into >perfect alignment with the PCB pads. I do the frame alignment by setting the >BGA on edge (vertical) against each of my frame pieces and checking the >ball/PCB pad alignment. So do you lay out the PCB with areas on the four sides to which you can solder your "frame"? >3. Put _A LOT_ of rosin core flux on the PC BGA pads. You dont need any solder >with the common solder ball type BGAs they have plenty in the balls. > >4. Heat from behind with a heat gun. I use a standard $59 Granger heat gun. >This requires some pratice to avoid overheating the board. You can pratice by >soldering small SMT parts to scrap or used PCBs. Moving the heat gun around in >a small circular pattern will help avoid PCB damage. When the Rosin flux >really begins to smoke, the temperature is just about right. You can see when >the BGA solder balls melt, because the BGA chip will sink about 1/2 mm. When >you see it sink, Your done! When you say "behind", I assume you mean the underside of the PCB, not the top of the BGA? Does the board want to be laying flat so that gravity helps or does the solder surface tension take care of it? I assume that you don't press the BGA part down? I've heard that moisture from humidity can cause problems, sometimes refered to as the "popcorn effect". What can you tell us about this? I've heard it has to do with component storage... >5. Checking: When the PCB is cool you need to remove the flux and inspect the >soldering. If the BGA is soldered properly the solder balls will have a >squashed appearance on all 4 sides of the BGA and you should be able see >through all the interball rows in both directions by along the underside of >the BGA. If the balls are not melted enough, you can re-apply flux and re-heat >The worst thing that can happen is that your frame is mis-aligned so far that >the balls ended up stikinf to 2 pads and have have merged underneath the BGA. >In that case you need to remove the BGA and try again (with a new part) > > >I have not been 100% successful but am close to 85% good solders first time... Thanks for the advice. It doesn't sound too bad... --tom From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Apr 25 21:08:42 2002 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000201c1ec61$b84fb9a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> <3CC81F87.74C43C70@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3CC8B687.84A3344E@eoni.com> I just couldn't let this one go by... About 1968 IIRC. Heathkit 25" RCA. Literally a bazillion parts. Without Eico, Dynaco, Heathkit and the like, the world is a less interesting place... Jim Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Still things that are mechanical and less mass market are built today. > When was the last time you built a TV? From mythtech at mac.com Thu Apr 25 21:16:29 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT Message-ID: >> 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex >Covet covet. > >*sigh* I'm in Qu?bec. That is sitting in the back of the van sitting in my driveway :-) In the morning I will see what it's status is (Dave believes it works, but doesn't know 100%... worst case, I will probably canabalize my LJ 2 to get the IIID running) Sorry, had to rub it in (isn't often I have toys others want) -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 21:16:58 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <005d01c1eca0$17b169f0$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote: > My bad on the disk size. My memory gets worse and worse. 'salright; Few folk remember even that much. > I eventually did buy TM100-2s for that machine and expanded it with a > Quadboard and bulk-purchased 4164s. A surplus B&W composite monitor served > for a bit before a Princeton RGB display replaced it. I wish I'd have saved > that machine. I haven't seen one with a lower serial number since. Why? What number was it? (Now I'm going to have to dig deep to check mine.) Did yours have the extra DB blockoff plate on the back panel? Did it have a drive mounting screw coming up from the bottom? My first 5150 came from IBM with a WHITE (NOT RED!) power switch, and a BLACK power supply (63.5W?) These days, I hardly EVER even see the 16K-64K motherboard ones. > IBM was pricey in the day, but they were competitive. You still pay nearly > $3K for cutting edge. But since it used the same drives and RAM as TRS-80, it wasn't VERY hard to find substantially cheaper aftermarket prices (among TRS-80 sources), rather than paying IBM prices. For example: IIRC, IBM wanted $540 for Tandon TM100-1, but I could get one with case and power supply for TRS-80 for $225, or about $150 for bare drive. The RF-Modulator (SupRModII) was readily available from Apple sources. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From MTPro at aol.com Thu Apr 25 21:18:16 2002 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Starter Set for sale Message-ID: <157.cf2244b.29fa12e8@aol.com> This set includes the circuit boards reproduced (actually produced-retro) from the original plans, and the front panel with lettering, and the red lens. I purchased these directly from the man who produces them and he has assembled a number of Mark-8's in the past and is very knowledgeable on their assembly. He includes an excellent CD with reprints of the original Radio Electronics articles and his own very helpful notes. Here are a couple of pictures: http://www.classiccomputing.com/mark8.html Here is more info: The First Hobbyist Computer! The remarkable Mark-8 computer was described in the July 1974 issue of Radio Electronics. A landmark in computer history, it was the first hobbyist computer. At this point in time, most engineers didn't, or couldn't believe that a real computer could be constructed with the new fangle Intel chips. But Jon Titus proved them wrong with the affordable Mark-8 computer. The Mark-8 is a .5 Mhz 8008 based computer that preceded the Altair 8800 by about 6 months. The 8008 was Intel's first 8 bit processor and was developed along with the world's first processor, the 4004. Only plans and pcb boards were available from the creator, Jon Titus, everything else had to be provided by the builder. More on the CD from the creator: Also included is a CD that I put together containing a copy of the original Radio Electronics article and supplemental 47 page construction article; a 50 page manual I created detailing my experience and hints debugging this computer (with many photos and full scans of completed boards); aboueers informed before Byte came out, its a treasure chest of historical information about the Mark-8 and other early computers, the January 1975 issue is especially interesting, this is when the Altair was introduced) I paid $180 for this set and I have come to realize that I do not have the talent needed to do the precise soldering, testing, etc. and there is the task of locating the remaining parts for the computer. This is over my head I believe, so I want to pass these on to someone else. $150 plus shipping, an excellent deal. Don't miss your chance to build this classic kit. Best, David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 21:20:41 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <009401c1ec98$de417360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That might prove VERY interesting, particularly if the dates are still > legible. At VCF2000, I used an original 1981 IBM price list for pricing the PC stuff that I had. I just moved the decimal point to charge exactly 1% of the original price. 'course few people were willing to pay $5.40 for a Tandon TM100-1, $3.xx for a CGA card, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Apr 25 21:44:05 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204260136.SAA19568@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200204260136.SAA19568@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Ah, okie. Yes, the Indus is excellent. Does the Atari version have the ROM >disk that the Commodore version does? (For those not in the know, the >Commodore Indus GT drive has a drive 1 [LOAD"$1",8] with DOS Wedge, a >fast loader and some other utilities permanently in drive ROM that can >just be loaded out of the drive instantaneously.) No, I've not seen mention of it in the manual for the drive. Is the operation the same as using the 1541? With the Atari version, everything is disk based. To take full advantage of the drive's capabilities you boot a version of Atari DOS for it, though other versions of the OS not specifically written to use it also work fine. I've run a few non-Atari DOSes with it was well. >The Commodore Indus GT also came with some (moderately pathetic) office >software, but it was an interesting bonus. Yes, the Atari version did also. They're ok if they're the only applications you have though! Did the Commodore version come in the black plastic carry case? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Thu Apr 25 21:45:03 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <16e001c1ecbd$9178c630$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Torquil MacCorkle III wrote: > Uh, Maybe 'slower than pissing tar' on a R4000. But my R4600SC is pretty > zippy in 6.5. I don't believe they ever made an R4600 Indigo. Just R3000 and R4000. Peace... Sridhar > > Bob Mason said: > > > > > > I've successfully installed 6.5 on an Indy with a 2 Gig drive. Barebones > with only 2 Gig, but it runs:) > > > > Is an Indy on-topic? I thought they were from about 1994-95... Though, > an > > Indigo is old enough and it will run 6.5, but not well ;) the quote I've > > heard applied to it is "slower then pissing tar", I believe... > > > > - Dan Wright > > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > > > -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From micro at formatex.org Thu Apr 25 21:45:52 2002 From: micro at formatex.org (FORMATEX) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Call for Chapters for Microscopy book Message-ID: <200204260256.g3Q2u0v73083@ns2.ezwind.net> Dear colleague This letter is to remind you that if you are interested in submitting a chapter for our forthcoming edition "Science, Technology and Education of Microscopy: an Overview" the deadline for submitting them is JUNE 30, 2002. Please note that a first list of accepted proposals/chapters has been also posted on the Call for Papers' website: http://www.formatex.org/micro2002/callforpaper.htm For any enquiry or suggestion, please contact us. Best wishes from Spain. J.A.Mesa Gonzalez Formatex Secretariat A.Mendez Vilas Physics Department University of Extremadura Avda. de Elvas s/n 06071 Badajoz SPAIN E-mail: amvilas@unex.es Editor From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 21:59:18 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <008701c1ec98$a9169c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Gee ... I've never seen one of those ... and I've picked up countless Apple > "drives" over the years, hoping to find something useable inside. The best > I've ever gotten has been a box + PSU. If I'd ever run into an Ampro product, > I'd have remembered. And you WON'T find 'em in regular drives. This would be specifically the drives that were intended to add MFM capabilities to non-MFM systems, and therefore needed to have at least an FDC, and even a microprocessor. The easiest shortcut to do that was to use a single board computer. I've seen Ampro, Quark, and 2 others. I also did some trivial disk format consulting for one outfit that was doing one with an Ampro, although at this point, I can't even remember the name. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 22:03:07 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BF@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > Atari's TOS wasn't based on MS-DOS either, and it used the exact > same filesystem. Their disk format was definitely and deliberately intended to be an exact replication of the documented MS-DOS disk format. I doubt that anything other than the disk format resembles any part of MS-DOS. > Perhaps I need to be more clear here -- this guy really thought > that somewhere underneath the Mac GUI, there was a copy of MS-DOS > on every Macintosh. He had nothing to offer as proof, except that > no computer could possibly function without it. (I'm really > serious here...) Did he also think that the 68000 was a copy of the 8086? From cvisors at carnagevisors.net Thu Apr 25 22:11:39 2002 From: cvisors at carnagevisors.net (cvisors@carnagevisors.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Vax 3100/80 among other things. In-Reply-To: <20020423145555.A8591@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 09:27:31AM +1000, cvisors@carnagevisors.net wrote: > > > It doesn't spin up but is present on the SCSI bus, thats whats happening. > On most SCSI drives you can disable spin up via jumpers. Is there a > cable for SCSI ID select connected to that drive? Maybe there is the > "do not spin up" jumper cnnected with that cable too... > But NetBSD schould detect the drive and spin it up uppon boot, > as should a "sh dev" from the boot prompt. > I think there is something wrong with the power connector for the drive, as I don't believe its the drive that is causing the issue... Benjamin From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 22:17:22 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <006801c1ec98$1bdc6fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Probably straight out of some textbook. That would certainly make sense. But I'll bet you a Dysan 8" alignment disk that you can't find WHICH textbook caused them to BOTH use a linked list of 12 bit entries representing allocation blocks, starting in the second sector, with entries 0 and 1 reserved. That is a little too much coincidence if it were to neither be a common source, nor Apple programmers being influenced by the Microsoft structure. The MS-DOS path to it can be traced to Patterson sharing a WCCF booth with Microsoft, and being fascinated by the table that Microsoft used in either NEC or NCR stand-alone basic. But that was mid-disk, NOT 12 bit entries, and without 0 and 1 reserved. (The MS-DOS encyclopedia says NCR, but I haven't seen an NCR implementation, and the NEC implementation was in the right time frame) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 22:23:41 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <000201c1ec61$b84fb9a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> <3CC81F87.74C43C70@jetnet.ab.ca> <3CC8B687.84A3344E@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3CC8C83D.4FE35C1@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Arnott wrote: > I just couldn't let this one go by... About 1968 IIRC. Heathkit 25" > RCA. Literally a bazillion parts. Without Eico, Dynaco, Heathkit and the > like, the world is a less interesting place... I suspected back then. > > Still things that are mechanical and less mass market are built today. > > When was the last time you built a TV? BTW I picked up small B&W TV about 1988. For $59 (canadian) it came with a owners manual and a schematic. About 4 IC's and few odd parts.Strange for $599.95 (candian) for a new set the only information you get is what is printed on the box.: ( -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 22:27:43 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Call for Chapters for Microscopy book References: <200204260256.g3Q2u0v73083@ns2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3CC8C92F.51D3739A@jetnet.ab.ca> FORMATEX wrote: > This letter is to remind you that if you are interested in submitting a > chapter for our forthcoming edition "Science, Technology and Education of > Microscopy: an Overview" the deadline for submitting them is JUNE 30, 2002. > For any enquiry or suggestion, please contact us. > Now who was it that had the beef about getting Chinese Microscopes. Now's you chance to write about them. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 25 22:30:42 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <015b01c1ecae$78e012e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > ... when was that, Tony? How long after the original CoCo was sold before > the whole "shootin' match" could be bought at the RS? Around here, the controller and drive were pretty much right away, but OS-9 as an alternative to the Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC was more than a year later. From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 25 22:56:01 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020425210753.009af320@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > >What I do for BGA protos is this: > > > >1. Solder the BGA(s) first! > >This is for a couple of reasons, its easier to inspect the soldering, and if > >you mess up the BGA soldering you can start with a fresh board and not > have to > >remove the BGA part. (Though I have removed and resoldered BGAs with pretty > >good luck) > > > >2. Build a "frame" around the BGA by soldering pieces of scrap circuit board > >material on all 4 sides of the BGA, leaving a little (5 mill) clearance on > >each side. I do this with pieces of paper as a shim that I later remove. This > >is the most critical part, the BGA part must be located in the right position > >on the PC by the frame. The 5 mill clearanec on the side is so the BGA can > >"float and settle" when the balls melt -surface tension will bring it into > >perfect alignment with the PCB pads. I do the frame alignment by setting the > >BGA on edge (vertical) against each of my frame pieces and checking the > >ball/PCB pad alignment. > > So do you lay out the PCB with areas on the four sides to which you can solder > your "frame"? No, there is always somewhere to tack solder the frame around the BGA. I guess if the BGA was at the very edge of the card that might be a problem, but thats not a likely layout... > > >3. Put _A LOT_ of rosin core flux on the PC BGA pads. You dont need any > solder > >with the common solder ball type BGAs they have plenty in the balls. > > > >4. Heat from behind with a heat gun. I use a standard $59 Granger heat gun. > >This requires some pratice to avoid overheating the board. You can pratice by > >soldering small SMT parts to scrap or used PCBs. Moving the heat gun > around in > >a small circular pattern will help avoid PCB damage. When the Rosin flux > >really begins to smoke, the temperature is just about right. You can see when > >the BGA solder balls melt, because the BGA chip will sink about 1/2 mm. When > >you see it sink, Your done! > > When you say "behind", I assume you mean the underside of the PCB, not the > top of the BGA? Does the board want to be laying flat so that gravity helps > or does the solder surface tension take care of it? I assume that you don't > press the BGA part down? I've heard that moisture from humidity can cause > problems, sometimes refered to as the "popcorn effect". What can you tell > us about this? I've heard it has to do with component storage... I always have the board laying flat, because gravity helps, and it also keeps the flux from running off... Dont press the BGA down! I did that a couple of times (its fun because the BGA is "spring loaded" when the solder balls are molten because of surface tension) -- if you are not really careful, you will flatten some of the molten solder balls to the point that they merge with adjacent balls - bad news. The surface tension is sufficient to align and pull the BGA down. > > >5. Checking: When the PCB is cool you need to remove the flux and inspect the > >soldering. If the BGA is soldered properly the solder balls will have a > >squashed appearance on all 4 sides of the BGA and you should be able see > >through all the interball rows in both directions by along the underside of > >the BGA. If the balls are not melted enough, you can re-apply flux and > re-heat > >The worst thing that can happen is that your frame is mis-aligned so far that > >the balls ended up stikinf to 2 pads and have have merged underneath the BGA. > >In that case you need to remove the BGA and try again (with a new part) > > > > > >I have not been 100% successful but am close to 85% good solders first > time... > > Thanks for the advice. It doesn't sound too bad... Its not so bad but does require practice, If you need a few practice BGA/cards just ask... > > --tom > > Peter Wallace From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Thu Apr 25 22:53:33 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's References: <3CC87BE2.15792.CCFC120@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC8CF3D.A0224400@compsys.to> >Hans Franke wrote: > Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. > one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work > 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't > needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created > on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started > copying right away. Jerome Fine replies: Just a wee reminder about RAID 1 (mirroring) controllers. The one I have is useless EXCEPT that with a Pentium III 750, the PCI controller can handle four EIDE drives with a sustained throughput of 33 MBytes per second or about 2 Gbytes per minute. This means that I can copy a 1 GByte file from one hard drive to the other hard drive in about 1 Minute. As for the RAID 1 (mirroring) function, don't wait until you have a hard drive failure. Find some way to simulate an error - I just unplugged one hard drive. If the RAID 1 firmware/software can't handle the problem, then the mirroring function is not much use when you don't know what the problem is. So if the RAID 1 is not helpful after you have the problem and if you never have a problem you don't need RAID 1 in the first place, why bother. EXCEPT in my case, I kept it for the RAW SPEED. -- Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From red at bears.org Fri Apr 26 00:06:49 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Uh, Maybe 'slower than pissing tar' on a R4000. But my R4600SC is pretty > > zippy in 6.5. > > I don't believe they ever made an R4600 Indigo. Just R3000 and R4000. Yes, R4000 and R3000 Indigos were available, and the R4000 will run IRIX 6.5 (the R3000 will not). There was a 150 MHz R4400 upgrade available for R4000 Indigos, as well (I have one). ok r. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 26 00:29:31 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <3CC8AA93.3291.D86260F@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > Ok, second disk detatched ... system boots, controler yells, system works. > second drive as second installed, first removed, reaction as above. > > Now the rebuild do I test after VCF ... I got a job to finish. > > BTW: Yall, keep in Mind, all VCFe speeches are available live over the net ! Thanks, Hans! That's all I needed to know. I really appreciate it. Doc From vance at ikickass.org Fri Apr 26 00:41:10 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > Uh, Maybe 'slower than pissing tar' on a R4000. But my R4600SC is pretty > > > zippy in 6.5. > > > > I don't believe they ever made an R4600 Indigo. Just R3000 and R4000. > > Yes, R4000 and R3000 Indigos were available, and the R4000 will run > IRIX 6.5 (the R3000 will not). There was a 150 MHz R4400 upgrade > available for R4000 Indigos, as well (I have one). Ooooh. I'd love to have an R4400 Indigo. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Apr 26 00:46:00 2002 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: ScanPlus Gray 300 scanner - what type of interface? Message-ID: <23856.1019799960@www25.gmx.net> Thanks for this first info. The scanner does not bear the Plustek name or logo, but their web site lists a "Scan Plus Color 3000" (possibly color variant of mine), for which they still have a driver. The bottom of my scanner has a label on it with two checkboxen, "ScanPlus Gray 300" next to the checked and "ScanPlus Color 3000" next to the unchecked one, so obviously the used at least the same housing. Unfortunately, they only describe setup procedures for parallel port scanners (which have a second connector for the printer cable) and USB scanners, so I'm still lost as to which kind of interface I need to connect mine. I had already found and downloaded the files from the Italian site. Sincerely yours Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 26 01:01:18 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204252244.g3PMioL6025495@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Bill Pechter wrote: > > A fairly trivial case in point - IBM's 24-bit MCA graphics adapter - > > the "Sabine" card set. Several RS/6000 developers that I know claim > > that the guy (singular) who developed it designed a prototype, wrote a > > driver, and redesigned the hardware to compensate for limitations in his > > code. Mark swears there were several cycles of that. The result was a > > piece of hardware and its driver that couldn't be ported even to the > > next version of AIX. > > > > > > Doc > > Is that why AIX 4 dropped support for the graphics adapter? Yes. The designer left IBM around then, and nobody in the company was willing to take it on. Damn shame. It's an impressive _looking_ boardset.... Mark, my boss, says the v3.2.5 Sabine drivers were "the most horrible pile of kludge" he's ever seen. Doc From tarsi at binhost.com Fri Apr 26 00:59:08 2002 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Sysgen Omni-Bridge Floppy Controller Message-ID: <02042600590807.04154@simon> Anyone got docs or at least jumper settings for an 8-bit Sysgen Omni-Bridge Floppy Controller? I just found one and it works (or at least it loads its BIOS on boot) and so I'd like to get it going. I'm gonna try to run it in an AT&T 6300. Thanks! Tarsi 210 From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 26 04:34:55 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: ScanPlus Gray 300 scanner - what type of interface? In-Reply-To: <23856.1019799960@www25.gmx.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426023403.00acdba0@mail.zipcon.net> At 07:46 AM 4/26/02 +0200, you wrote: >Unfortunately, they only describe setup procedures for parallel port >scanners (which have a second connector for the printer cable) and USB >scanners, so >I'm still lost as to which kind of interface I need to connect mine. It is -probably- a parallel port scanner, email plustek's tech support, they might still have some documentation on the scanner From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 26 05:05:17 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: References: <3CC8AA93.3291.D86260F@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC9427D.16240.FD78FFF@localhost> > > BTW: Yall, keep in Mind, all VCFe speeches are available live over the > > net ! > How do I watch these, and when are they, please? Well, go for the Webpages, klick on VCFe live and you'll get a selection. Schedule is on the agenda page (VCFe 3.0). All times are in MESZ - German daylight saveing time (UTC +2) - so for the east coast subtract 6 hours, for the weat coast, 9h. Well, the timeing is maybe a bit bad for the US folks. Therefore we also pan to archive all speeches online, so you may access the saved files as soon as 45 minutes after each speech. All encodinging will be MP3 with 32 kBit. The streaming server is connected via a 34 MBit line, so no fear of cognestions :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Apr 26 05:08:25 2002 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? Message-ID: <215bc521925e.21925e215bc5@ono.com> Hello everybody. I should like to probe the HP2100 simulator available under Bob Supnik's SIMH. Is there any software repository available for this machine ? I know the Jeff Moffat's website programs only, but somebody spoke here some time ago about some other place where to get software for this machine. Greetings Sergio From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 26 05:35:37 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <3CC8CF3D.A0224400@compsys.to> Message-ID: <3CC94999.29723.FF35446@localhost> > > Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. > > one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work > > 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't > > needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created > > on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started > > copying right away. > Just a wee reminder about RAID 1 (mirroring) controllers. The > one I have is useless EXCEPT that with a Pentium III 750, the > PCI controller can handle four EIDE drives with a sustained > throughput of 33 MBytes per second or about 2 Gbytes per > minute. This means that I can copy a 1 GByte file from one > hard drive to the other hard drive in about 1 Minute. > As for the RAID 1 (mirroring) function, don't wait until you have > a hard drive failure. Find some way to simulate an error - I just > unplugged one hard drive. If the RAID 1 firmware/software > can't handle the problem, then the mirroring function is not much > use when you don't know what the problem is. So if the RAID 1 > is not helpful after you have the problem and if you never have > a problem you don't need RAID 1 in the first place, why bother. Well, that's what I exectly started to test. As I told earlyer, when plugging in a new disk it did duplicate the existing disk onto the new one right away. The above mentioned test was if both copies are independant usable as first drive for recovery. I won't start the final test, the one where I put both disks together again, to see how it recovers teh inconsistent system, until next week, since I need the machine to woork the next 3 days. > EXCEPT in my case, I kept it for the RAW SPEED. That's why I used stripeing on my game machine :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 26 06:02:42 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Bytesize (was: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) In-Reply-To: <000201c1e9f1$91d17ce0$23d2f1c3@cx> Message-ID: <3CC94FF2.27912.100C1FFE@localhost> > > > I don't know about the /360, but the the /370 and /390 used 8-bit bytes, > > > 32-bit words, and 31-bit (!) addressing. > > /360 16 Bit address NO, 24 bit !!! > > /370 24 Bit address > > /390 24 or 31 Bit address > > All architectures had 8 Bit Bytes and 32 Bit Registers > /360 24 bit addresses, 8 bit bytes 32 bit registers Shure that you don't mangle up /360 and /370 ? The Addresscalculation as Register Field plus 12 Bit offset in the 16 Bit operand field of an instruction was already an extension. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Fri Apr 26 05:41:29 2002 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <3CC9427D.16240.FD78FFF@localhost> Message-ID: <1713AP-1Y4fQmC@fwd03.sul.t-online.com> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:05:17 +0200, Hans Franke wrote: > >> > BTW: Yall, keep in Mind, all VCFe speeches are available live over the >> > net ! > Hallo Hans.. Thats very good for me as I have no time to come (from Duisburg) Will you be at z-fest this year ? >Well, go for the Webpages, klick on VCFe live and you'll get a selection. I will do so too > >Well, the timeing is maybe a bit bad for the US folks. Therefore we also > >The streaming server is connected via a 34 MBit line, so no fear of >cognestions :) We will look if that's true.-) >Gruss >H. > Greetings from Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 26 06:50:58 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? References: <215bc521925e.21925e215bc5@ono.com> Message-ID: <002301c1ed18$a13e3090$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I am building an archive at www.classiccmp.org/HP for hp software. Note that the "HP" in that url must be capitalized or you'll get a different site. I just started putting stuff there so there isn't a huge amount, but it is growing very rapidly thanks to Al's great hard work scanning documents and reading paper tapes. If there's any software you're looking for that you don't see there, just let me know. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sergio Pedraja Cabo" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:08 AM Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? > > Hello everybody. I should like to probe the HP2100 simulator available > under Bob Supnik's SIMH. Is there any software repository available > for this machine ? I know the Jeff Moffat's website programs only, > but somebody spoke here some time ago about some other place where > to get software for this machine. > > Greetings > > Sergio > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 26 06:52:24 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's References: <3CC94999.29723.FF35446@localhost> Message-ID: <002f01c1ed18$d4f26d20$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> My primary reason for using raid1 is speed. However, the failover is a great added benefit (as long as the controller supports booting off the raid set - some do, some don't). Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:35 AM Subject: Re: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's > > > Well, by now I have 3 PCs (AMD) running with motherboard IDE Raid. > > > one is just stripeing, the other two mirroring. all three work > > > 100% hasslefree. I can't tell about the recovery, because I don't > > > needed it until now. but the second mirror configuration was created > > > on the fly - an existing harddisk as #1 and a new as #2 and it started > > > copying right away. > > > Just a wee reminder about RAID 1 (mirroring) controllers. The > > one I have is useless EXCEPT that with a Pentium III 750, the > > PCI controller can handle four EIDE drives with a sustained > > throughput of 33 MBytes per second or about 2 Gbytes per > > minute. This means that I can copy a 1 GByte file from one > > hard drive to the other hard drive in about 1 Minute. > > > As for the RAID 1 (mirroring) function, don't wait until you have > > a hard drive failure. Find some way to simulate an error - I just > > unplugged one hard drive. If the RAID 1 firmware/software > > can't handle the problem, then the mirroring function is not much > > use when you don't know what the problem is. So if the RAID 1 > > is not helpful after you have the problem and if you never have > > a problem you don't need RAID 1 in the first place, why bother. > > Well, that's what I exectly started to test. As I told earlyer, > when plugging in a new disk it did duplicate the existing disk > onto the new one right away. The above mentioned test was if both > copies are independant usable as first drive for recovery. > > I won't start the final test, the one where I put both disks > together again, to see how it recovers teh inconsistent system, > until next week, since I need the machine to woork the next 3 days. > > > EXCEPT in my case, I kept it for the RAW SPEED. > > That's why I used stripeing on my game machine :) > > Gruss > H. > > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Apr 26 07:01:03 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's In-Reply-To: <1713AP-1Y4fQmC@fwd03.sul.t-online.com> References: <3CC9427D.16240.FD78FFF@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC95D9F.7908.10418B1A@localhost> > >> > BTW: Yall, keep in Mind, all VCFe speeches are available live over the > >> > net ! > Thats very good for me as I have no time to come (from Duisburg) The pages are not ment to keep nearby living people away. They are here to tease all the far guys to get a ticket next year. And Duisburg is CLOSE by any standard - just tell to the list that you considere less than 400 miles a big distance ! > Will you be at z-fest this year ? I guess not. > >Well, the timeing is maybe a bit bad for the US folks. Therefore we also > >The streaming server is connected via a 34 MBit line, so no fear of > >cognestions :) > We will look if that's true.-) so, you want to flood the line ... good luck. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 26 07:27:02 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Apr 25, 2 10:44:05 pm" Message-ID: <200204261227.FAA11702@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Ah, okie. Yes, the Indus is excellent. Does the Atari version have the ROM > > disk that the Commodore version does? (For those not in the know, the > > Commodore Indus GT drive has a drive 1 [LOAD"$1",8] with DOS Wedge, a > > fast loader and some other utilities permanently in drive ROM that can > > just be loaded out of the drive instantaneously.) > No, I've not seen mention of it in the manual for the drive. > Is the operation the same as using the 1541? Yep, you just LOAD files from it as if the Indus were a dual drive (device 8 drive 0 being the "real" drive, device 8 drive 1 being the ROM disk). Very clever idea. > With the Atari version, > everything is disk based. To take full advantage of the drive's > capabilities you boot a version of Atari DOS for it, though other > versions of the OS not specifically written to use it also work fine. Ah, that makes sense. > > The Commodore Indus GT also came with some (moderately pathetic) office > > software, but it was an interesting bonus. > > Yes, the Atari version did also. They're ok if they're the > only applications you have though! Did the Commodore version come in > the black plastic carry case? Do you mean the main case itself? Speaking of the main case, the smoked plastic "door" and the track display (which doubled as the error display on the Commodore version) is also very slick, as well as being able to soft-write-protect a disk from the front control panel. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Cold Wave Linked To Temperatures --------------- From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Apr 26 07:59:26 2002 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? Message-ID: <201ffb2043c0.2043c0201ffb@ono.com> Thanks. Do it exist some available copy of some operative OS for the HP2100 (in form of PaperTape, Virtual Disk or so) ? Greetings Sergio ----- Mensaje Original ----- Remitente: "Jay West" Fecha: Viernes, Abril 26, 2002 1:50 pm Asunto: Re: Hp2100 software available. Where ? > I am building an archive at www.classiccmp.org/HP for hp software. > Note that > the "HP" in that url must be capitalized or you'll get a different > site. I > just started putting stuff there so there isn't a huge amount, but > it is > growing very rapidly thanks to Al's great hard work scanning > documents and > reading paper tapes. > > If there's any software you're looking for that you don't see > there, just > let me know. > > Jay West > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sergio Pedraja Cabo" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:08 AM > Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? > > > > > > Hello everybody. I should like to probe the HP2100 simulator > available> under Bob Supnik's SIMH. Is there any software > repository available > > for this machine ? I know the Jeff Moffat's website programs only, > > but somebody spoke here some time ago about some other place where > > to get software for this machine. > > > > Greetings > > > > Sergio > > > > > > > > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Apr 26 08:00:12 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204261227.FAA11702@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200204261227.FAA11702@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > No, I've not seen mention of it in the manual for the drive. >> Is the operation the same as using the 1541? > >Yep, you just LOAD files from it as if the Indus were a dual drive (device 8 >drive 0 being the "real" drive, device 8 drive 1 being the ROM disk). Very >clever idea. That's cool. A little bit like a choice between an Atari ST and booting it from ROM vice other machines that boot from disk. > > Yes, the Atari version did also. They're ok if they're the >> only applications you have though! Did the Commodore version come in >> the black plastic carry case? > >Do you mean the main case itself? No, they shipped in black plastic cases, somewhat like the cases some drills and such come in and are stored in. A friend of mine used to use his case for disk storage....you could fit quite a lot of disks inside of it! >Speaking of the main case, the smoked plastic "door" and the track display >(which doubled as the error display on the Commodore version) is also >very slick, as well as being able to soft-write-protect a disk from the >front control panel. Yes, the Atari version is the same way. I always liked sitting there listening to it seek and read while watching the display count down the tracks. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From carlos_murillo at epm.net.co Fri Apr 26 08:11:15 2002 From: carlos_murillo at epm.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20020426091115.011d5044@pop1.epm.net.co> At 02:08 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote: >I had a cop-rogrammer at one point who insisted that MacOS was based on >MS-DOS. :) >Needless to say, he didn't rogramm very well, and was fired eventually. >Chris Copro-grammer fits. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 26 08:27:15 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? References: <201ffb2043c0.2043c0201ffb@ono.com> Message-ID: <005d01c1ed26$1515b990$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Yes > Thanks. Do it exist some available copy of some operative OS for > the HP2100 (in form of PaperTape, Virtual Disk or so) ? From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 26 08:42:36 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 26, 02 01:17:31 am Message-ID: <200204261342.JAA08890@wordstock.com> And thusly Tony Duell spake: > > > There was one _big_ advantage to Radio Shack machines (at least for me). > You could get documentation. Real documetation with schematics and > pinouts and the like. No hassle -- just walk into the shop and buy the > technical manual off the shelf. > Commodore and Amigas also had the schematics available. I was able to fix a problem on my Amiga 500 with the help of the schematics. I believe the chip I replaced was a 74LS which was in between a joystick port and one of the big custom chips. Cheers, Bryan From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 08:46:45 2002 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (Doug Peksa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:12 2005 Subject: Mains voltage & frequency Message-ID: >From 1981-1992 our Honeywell Multics (120V 60Hz) was attached to the grid (240V 50Hz) via an motor/alternator set which was about 6' (long) x 3' (high) x 2' (wide). Doug. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Apr 26 09:01:08 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467886@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This may be an off-topic post, but Chris is nuts for old HP laser printers and old Macs! A 2 hour drive, out of the blue, during the week, just for two printers... Well I guess that fits just about everybody on this list though... Anyway, to my point... This is off-topic, so taking it off-list is appropriate I believe... I have a Sun Ultra1 Creator. (170E, Open Boot 3.1, 128 MB RAM, 4 GB Quantum, 1 GB Conner, floppy disk... old 19" Sun color monitor, type 5c keyb, optical mouse w/proper silver pad!) Well, now that I finally got the Creator framebuffer replaced, it's time to load Solaris. Except that all the CD-ROMS I have aren't even seen by the console... And I tried the sector size jumper both ways. - Matsushita CR-503-B Compaq spare... - Smart 7 Friendly CD-R 4012 - Apple CD300 plus (found the Sun CD list that said these didn't work afterwards) I have a DEC RRD42 external CD drive here at work that I'm gonna "borrow" this weekend. Any tips, tricks, or other hints? Maybe something I missed? How about other options for getting this puppy running? Thanks to Sridhar and DaveM for trying to help last might... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > ---------- > From: Chris > > >> 1 HP LaserJet IIID, w/ duplex > >Covet covet. > > > >*sigh* I'm in Qu?bec. > > That is sitting in the back of the van sitting in my driveway :-) > > In the morning I will see what it's status is (Dave believes it works, > but doesn't know 100%... worst case, I will probably canabalize my LJ 2 > to get the IIID running) > > Sorry, had to rub it in (isn't often I have toys others want) > > -chris From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 26 08:50:59 2002 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20020426091115.011d5044@pop1.epm.net.co> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844BD@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.c om> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20020426085033.024d2938@pc> At 09:11 AM 4/26/2002 -0400, Carlos Murillo wrote: >At 02:08 PM 4/25/02 -0500, you wrote: >>I had a cop-rogrammer at one point who insisted that MacOS was based on >>MS-DOS. :) >>Needless to say, he didn't rogramm very well, and was fired eventually. >>Chris > >Copro-grammer fits. And Chris was moved to documentation... :-) - John From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Apr 26 09:00:15 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020425210753.009af320@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Tom Uban wrote: > >What I do for BGA protos is this: > > > >1. Solder the BGA(s) first! > >This is for a couple of reasons, its easier to inspect the soldering, and if > >you mess up the BGA soldering you can start with a fresh board and not > have to > >remove the BGA part. (Though I have removed and resoldered BGAs with pretty > >good luck) > > > >2. Build a "frame" around the BGA by soldering pieces of scrap circuit board > >material on all 4 sides of the BGA, leaving a little (5 mill) clearance on > >each side. I do this with pieces of paper as a shim that I later remove. This > >is the most critical part, the BGA part must be located in the right position > >on the PC by the frame. The 5 mill clearanec on the side is so the BGA can > >"float and settle" when the balls melt -surface tension will bring it into > >perfect alignment with the PCB pads. I do the frame alignment by setting the > >BGA on edge (vertical) against each of my frame pieces and checking the > >ball/PCB pad alignment. > > So do you lay out the PCB with areas on the four sides to which you can solder > your "frame"? > > >3. Put _A LOT_ of rosin core flux on the PC BGA pads. You dont need any > solder > >with the common solder ball type BGAs they have plenty in the balls. > > > >4. Heat from behind with a heat gun. I use a standard $59 Granger heat gun. > >This requires some pratice to avoid overheating the board. You can pratice by > >soldering small SMT parts to scrap or used PCBs. Moving the heat gun > around in > >a small circular pattern will help avoid PCB damage. When the Rosin flux > >really begins to smoke, the temperature is just about right. You can see when > >the BGA solder balls melt, because the BGA chip will sink about 1/2 mm. When > >you see it sink, Your done! > > When you say "behind", I assume you mean the underside of the PCB, not the > top of the BGA? Does the board want to be laying flat so that gravity helps > or does the solder surface tension take care of it? I assume that you don't > press the BGA part down? I've heard that moisture from humidity can cause > problems, sometimes refered to as the "popcorn effect". What can you tell > us about this? I've heard it has to do with component storage... Forgot that one, yes if you have removed the BGA parts from their sealed desiccant packed containers for more than a few days, you need to dry them by baking in an oven at around 150F for a few days. The Epoxy will absorb moisture from the atmosphere and when heated to soldering temperature, the steam created may crack the epoxy if not dry (popcorn effect). This applies to all SMT parts, not just BGAs. We've had troubles with 208 QFP parts that the assembly house has left out for too long. Problem is worse on large parts. > > >5. Checking: When the PCB is cool you need to remove the flux and inspect the > >soldering. If the BGA is soldered properly the solder balls will have a > >squashed appearance on all 4 sides of the BGA and you should be able see > >through all the interball rows in both directions by along the underside of > >the BGA. If the balls are not melted enough, you can re-apply flux and > re-heat > >The worst thing that can happen is that your frame is mis-aligned so far that > >the balls ended up stikinf to 2 pads and have have merged underneath the BGA. > >In that case you need to remove the BGA and try again (with a new part) > > > > > >I have not been 100% successful but am close to 85% good solders first > time... > > Thanks for the advice. It doesn't sound too bad... > > --tom > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 26 09:19:51 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: <10204260044.ZM5790@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Apr 25, 2002 11:44:37 pm" Message-ID: <200204261419.g3QEJpp3038443@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > On Apr 25, 18:20, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > On Apr 24, 21:05, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > > > Isn't it a bit much to call XXDP+ an OS. > > > > DECX-11 is closer... XXDP's pretty dumb. > > > > > > I've always thought of XXDP as the OS that DECX-11 runs under. > > > More like the program loader for the OS... 8-). > > > > At least CP/M had better editors available than XXDP... > > Yeah, you mean EDLIN :-) TECO in XXDP is not my favourite editor! > > I'm slightly puzzled by what you say about DEC X-11, though. My exposure > to it and XXDP is only in the form of the diagnostics available to end > users and third-party service organisations, and I suspect there's more to > it than that. The reason I think of XXDP as the OS and X-11 as the, well, > application in a way, is that all I see are the X-11 modules to run build > and series of tests, whereas XXDP includes the monitor, system handlers etc > (as well as the diagnostic programs and utilites, of course). To me, > that's the OS. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York You're exactly correct, except the XXDP doesn't have drivers for the comm gear and other stuff, whereas DECX/11 can have modules running simulating disk and tape i/o, comm i/o and can do task scheduling and timeouts. Also DECX/11 is interrupt driven where most of XXDP polls status registers. I stretched my view a bit. DEC training called XXDP a diagnostic monitor... which was ok until the DS> diagnostic supervisor got loose... and the names collided. The XXDP monitor is single tasking, non-interrupt driven, polling and can hang forever waiting for an event that never comes. DECX/11 won't. DECX/11 seemed much more os-like. Batch streams do exist in XXDP (the .ccc chain files) -- but that's just minimal scripting. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 26 09:23:40 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT] In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467886@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from David Woyciesjes at "Apr 26, 2002 10:01:08 am" Message-ID: <200204261423.g3QENfUt041115@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > This may be an off-topic post, but Chris is nuts for old HP laser > printers and old Macs! A 2 hour drive, out of the blue, during the week, > just for two printers... Well I guess that fits just about everybody on this > list though... > > Anyway, to my point... This is off-topic, so taking it off-list is > appropriate I believe... I have a Sun Ultra1 Creator. (170E, Open Boot 3.1, > 128 MB RAM, 4 GB Quantum, 1 GB Conner, floppy disk... old 19" Sun color > monitor, type 5c keyb, optical mouse w/proper silver pad!) Well, now that I > finally got the Creator framebuffer replaced, it's time to load Solaris. > Except that all the CD-ROMS I have aren't even seen by the console... And I > tried the sector size jumper both ways. > > Any tips, tricks, or other hints? Maybe something I missed? How > about other options for getting this puppy running? > > Thanks to Sridhar and DaveM for trying to help last might... > > -- > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu try to describe the scsi bus and termination. do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... let me know what that does. Great machine... I've got some Sun Parts if you need them including an external disk and cd. Plextor and Toshiba CD's and CD-R's have worked for me on them. The old 2x toshibas are $3.50 at www.compgeeks.com. My Teac's also have the 512 byte jumper as do IBM's. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 26 09:41:45 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <002b01c1ed30$7daeb7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You raise a valid point, Tony, but ... see below, plz, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > [Altair] > > > > > It was designed as a TOY. It first appeared in an article in a niche magazine > > You clearly believe that 'toy' and 'computer' are mutually exclusive. I > do not. > That was very much a valid distinction in 1980, but because microelectronics applied to the toy market are as valid and "real" an application asn any other, it's no longer the case. > > > specializing TOYS. Since no software, means for getting it in, means for > > IIRC there was a front panel. Surely I am not the only person here to > have entered software using toggle switches.... > ... and you feel it's warranted to spend vast amounts of money, which the Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data in or out except for single-bit LED's and a few switches when there's no other means for inserting/extracting information? Even Ed Roberts indicated he initially had no plans to produce additional cards for his Altair, initially. Only after it was shown there was a demand for them, did folks realize that the ALTAIR PSU was inadequate for more than what he sold with it. > > > getting the results of any processing (remember...computers are for AUTOMATIC > > data processing?) Its purpose clearly was to make a little money, which it > > It's purpose (IMHO) was clearly as an educational tool. > Yes, as was the "Speak-n-Spell" which was sold in toy stores everywhere. > > Now clearly you don't think you need any form of aids to learning, but > for the rest of us mortals, it's helpful to actually have some real > devices to learn with. In order to learn about programming it helps to > have a computer. Even one with 256 bytes (or whatever) of memory and a > frontpanel only. I'd rather try to understand programming using that than > with no computer at all. > I don't know why you've assumed this defensive posture, Tony. There's no sin involved in using microelectronics of any form in toys. Further, educational toys, e.g. the "Speak-n-Spell" I mentioned before, are a very useful sort of toy that emphasizes something other than senseless violence or pseudo-atheletics for a society plagued by too much senseless violence, and too little physical activity on the part of our youth. Games like that one, and there once were several, allow youngsters to exercise their minds without fear of embarassment, which teaches them they can do something about their perceived shortcomings, among other things. I don't like video games, but it's not because they're games. It's because the games are largely violence-oriented and because they deprive the kids who play them of the physical exercise and personal interaction that they'd have if they weren't afraid to go outside. From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Apr 26 09:58:10 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items Message-ID: <007901c1ed32$c906d360$2c000240@default> Picked new in the box Apple II SCSI Card for II Plus, IIe, and IIGS, has cool little wrench with the apple logo stamped in the metal. New in the box System 6 IIGS. New in the box HyperStudio for the IIGS, Version 3.1 with System 6.01. Books - Introduction to Analog Computation by Joseph J. Blum, Mac Internet Tour Guide with software, TEX for the BeginnerMicro-Computer Handbook by Charles J. Sippl (from 1977), the Z-80 microcomputer handbook by William Barden, Jr., Programming the Z80 3rd Ed. by Rodnay Zaks and last VAX software Source Book Volume 2 Systems software, second edition January 1985 by digital. A Sega PowerBack for the Gamegear ($2.99) at a local thrift and from the same place a Logitech joystick (digital 3D) for $3.99, and a cool controller for the PS1 for $2.99. Now for the wanted items - looking to complete my Mac collection that I started years ago trying to collect one of each model from 1984 to 1995 for a total of 103 machines. PB160 - working or not Mac 512Ke Quadra 800 WGS60 Performa 466, 467, 550, 275,, 560, 577,578, 658 Duo250, Duo270, Duo280, Color classic II 610DOS PM8100 WS6150, WS8150, WS9150 PB520c, PB540, PB540c, PB150 LC630 PF6110, PF6112, PF6115, PF6117, PF6118 6100/110 8100/100 If anyone has one or more of these that they would like to unload email me off list at jrkeys@concentric.net. Thanks for reading. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Apr 26 10:11:26 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467887@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Bill Pechter > > > Anyway, to my point... This is off-topic, so taking it off-list is > > appropriate I believe... I have a Sun Ultra1 Creator. (170E, Open Boot > 3.1, > > 128 MB RAM, 4 GB Quantum, 1 GB Conner, floppy disk... old 19" Sun color > > monitor, type 5c keyb, optical mouse w/proper silver pad!) Well, now > that I > > finally got the Creator framebuffer replaced, it's time to load Solaris. > > Except that all the CD-ROMS I have aren't even seen by the console... > And I > > tried the sector size jumper both ways. > > > > -- > > try to describe the scsi bus and termination. > do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... > > let me know what that does. > - Termination was tried both ways on the CD drive. The 2 HDDs are SCA-80, and it looks like those are in the middle of the chain. probe-scsi shows _only_ the 2 HDDs, never the CD. probe-scsi-all will have to wait until I get home from work... > Great machine... I've got some Sun Parts if you need them including an > external disk and cd. > - Hopefully the DEC RRD42 will work, like people say it should. Could that external CD be mounted in the Ultra1? I'd hate to clutter up my desk _more_... :) > Plextor and Toshiba CD's and CD-R's have worked for me on them. > The old 2x toshibas are $3.50 at www.compgeeks.com. > > My Teac's also have the 512 byte jumper as do IBM's. > - None of which I have... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 26 10:04:49 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C4@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The > An external IDE drive would be hazardous thing to use because > of cable length. Didn't think of that -- you're probably right. > > handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't > > need to -- so there are good points to them. > What you may have had, then, is a toy with a computer as a > peripheral. That > was probably quite a bit after the time reference of 1980. Actually, I don't remember what CPU was in the 1541 drives, but I seem to recall that it was actually more powerful than the computer. I also remember somebody working on a way to get code into the drive to be executed, but that's kind of fuzzy. > What I am focused on is where the intelligence to run the I/O > resides. Once So does the computer have to come with it, or simply allow space for it on the inside of the case? > peripherals made great deal of sense. However, it resulted > in ugly and > awkward packaging, which was addressed even later with more > elegant interface > standards, say, by 1986, with the standardization of SCSI. Well, I certainly won't argue with that. > > Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the > > time? > I'd tread lightly around that subject, unless your Atari or > whatever, had a > 9-track drive in '80 or so. Obviously not, I'm just curious as to whether it would need to be some form of "fast" disk-like storage, or if a high-capacity tape would be ok. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 26 10:17:12 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002b01c1ed30$7daeb7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 26, 2 08:41:45 am" Message-ID: <200204261517.IAA14272@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > You clearly believe that 'toy' and 'computer' are mutually exclusive. I > > do not. > That was very much a valid distinction in 1980, but because microelectronics > applied to the toy market are as valid and "real" an application asn any > other, it's no longer the case. So why do *you* bother drawing a distinction between the two if toys are a valid use? A computer is a computer, no matter what it's used for, right? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I use my C-128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. -- Bob Masse From troy.haag at baesystems.com Fri Apr 26 10:22:49 2002 From: troy.haag at baesystems.com (Haag, Troy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <41575B2947B7D411A03C00508BCFF162708FD2@usa07.cs.lmco.com> Does anyone know where I could pick up/buy one of these pieces of test equipment? From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri Apr 26 10:25:52 2002 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: suggestions on BBC Micro, voltage converter, PAL monitor (in US)? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146E2C@BUSH02> Tony, Second processors _are_ hard to find. The 6502 and Z80 ones are just about possible to find. The 32016 and ARM1 ones are very rare. I've got a few of the Torch Z80 and Torch 68000 type along with an 80C286 board that fits internally to the BBC. I have no documents or software for any of these and both the 68000 and 80C286 boards have had nearly all the socketed chips pulled. Any ideas where I can get info and/or software for these. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 26 10:23:10 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work > would it do with the > $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could As with any computer, you'd need software. Let's take that into account, and say that you could certainly get software on ROM cartridges, and that you could plug a normal household tape recorder in and store data on cassette. Sure, it's not the greatest thing in the world, but it will "balance the checkbook" that way. > you write and > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any I'm not sure whether there were any compilers available that didn't require disk drives. It would have been possible (not fun) given the proper programs. > meaningful way? > Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? Yes, if it was a serial printer. Most software that used a printer depended on having a serial printer plugged into that port on the back of the system. If it was parallel, you'd need a converter. > What software > was there, that you could install and use? How and where > would you install Cartridge slot or cassette tape. Again, there was some available. I'm not sure that it would be enough to constitute "lots," but there was certainly some of most types of software. > it? When you finally decided you had to build your own > hardware and write > your own software, wouldn't it have been easier to use a > wirewrap card and a > CPU chip and start from scratch rather than having to work I'm sure it depends on what you're doing. It seemed to me that the bus slot in the side would have been simple enough to use for hardware add-ons, and you could certainly program the thing in machine code, if nothing else. > hardware didn't cost less if you used one of the "toy"-based > systems, and the > software wasn't any more available than if you'd used a > "real" computer. It Home computers have never been in the same class as "real computers". I'll be the first one to suggest that; they probably never will, either. I would say that it depends on whether you wanted to do "home computer" things, or something more. Certainly it would cost quite a bit of money to make them do something they weren't designed to do, but if your needs fit the design, they were probably fine. Even adding disks would have still been less expensive than the "real computers" of the day. > near the bottom. For something equal to, say, and Apple][,. > I'd say you'd pay > nearly twice what a well-purchased Apple][ would have cost > for a RS product of > nearly similar actual capabilities. RS never did build > something genuinely > intended for expansion though, did they? That was a complaint of mine too. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 26 10:30:02 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Ebay alert, Pacific NW, DEC gear Message-ID: <3CC9727A.8070804@internet1.net> It's not my auction, and I wish I was close enough to investigate further. The auction says he has 3 pages of components that he'll fax to a potential bidder. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2019918462 Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 26 11:29:17 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Vintage Comp Ads and Prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020426122917.0082c560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That is COOL! Thanks for the URL! Joe At 07:40 PM 4/25/02 -0400, you wrote: > > > Just found this: > > > www.adflip.com > > a huge archive of print advertising covering many >decades. > > Entering 'compter' into the search box returned hundreds of ads, >starting with a full page National Geographic spread for the IBM 604 from >1951... many many other vintage systems from the 70s are there too, many >with prices. > > Cheers > >John > > > From emu at ecubics.com Fri Apr 26 10:45:13 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Soldering BGAs, was Re: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: Message-ID: <3CC97609.C57F143@ecubics.com> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > >What I do for BGA protos is this: There is an application note from motorola with some background information regarding BGAs. (layout & soldering) It is AN1231, and I found it searching on www.mot-sps.com cheers From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 26 10:40:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > Did he also think that the 68000 was a copy of the 8086? I didn't ask, but probably. I imagine every chip is a copy of the Pentium, in fact. How would MS-DOS run otherwise? We all know that even the Great Bill Gates wasn't able to make his Wonderful Windows Operating System function without MS-DOS, so it must certainly be impossible for anyone else. ;) Those ENIAC guys are just lucky that Bill Gates was around to give them a copy of MS-DOS when they needed it! No, I'm not exaggerating; yes, I did say he was a "programmer." Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 26 10:46:31 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <004d01c1ed39$89c6a3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > > > This thread has become shanghaied down a path different that the one I > > intended to take. > > I am not sure why you feel _you_ should be able to decide how threads > develop here... > Nobody owns a given thread. I didn't say I did, but I did lament that the cost-related remarks I made and the references to the timeline seemed to go by the wayside, when they're what was at the core of my point with respect to Jeff's remarks about the relative cost of the various systems one could get in the very early '80's. It's simply been my contention that building a computer from components intended to be a computer was, in fact, less costly than building a similarly capable system starting with toys as components, though the costs might have been more burdensome since one had to buy the parts more or less at the same time if one wanted somthing functional after the first purchase. It doesn't help when people attempt to compare items from different decades. > > > > My point was that you didn't have to write code when you bought a computer > > that was intended to be used as a computer in order just to get it to run your > > OS and applications. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you > > That certainly applies to all those computers you claim are 'toys'. I > don't think you ever had to write code yourself to get the > computer-manufacturer's disk drive to boot/run the > computer-manufacturer's chosen OS. Certainly not with the Apple ][, > TRS-80 (any version), C64, Pet, etc. You just plugged it all together and > booted. > The Apple][ didn't really need a lot of plugging. It was designed to be a computer, though its predecessor, the Apple I had signal names on its schematic that clearly indicated it was intended as a video device more than as a general purpose computer. That was probably reasonable since everything had to be slaved to the video refresh timing. The TRS-80 was in the stores nearly a year before the expansion interface, disk drives, and OS were available. I don't know what the story on the PET was, as there were no outlets for them here in the Denver area that kept 'em in stock. They certainly didn't have an OS or anything of the sort until well after their market window in the U.S. had closed. AFAIK, their successes were mainly in the European market. I remember seeing their ads in mags brought back from Europe, but in the entire time I was looking ad commercial systems, the only PET I ever saw, in private hands or in the hands of a merchant, was the original 4K PET with the toy (Chiclet?) keyboard. The C64 doesn't fit in the same generation with these early machines. > > > When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work would it do with the > > Depends on what you consider useful work :-) > > > $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could you write and > > Write a letter? There was a word processor ROM (Color Scripsit Program > Pak) that you could plug in. I have it somewhere. I think it came out not > long after the CoCo itself > The latter was my point, though in any case, it wasn't included in the $399 bundle. The hardware preceeded any useful application, though it was produced long after there were microcomputers with plenty of useful software available. While I've never maintained that the "$399" CoCo was incapable of anything if enough equipment was added, it's clear that you can't compare the CoCo as purchased in, say '82, if it was even available that early, with a low-cost system, e.g. the Ampro Little Board, costing, I think <$200 (as a kit, of course) including the OS on floppy disks. It required a serial terminal, of course, but provided the ability to run anything CP/M. As usual with 5-1/4"-diskette-based systems, there was a media issue, but that could be work ed out by means of Modem7. > > > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any meaningful way? > > I know of no home computer that had Fortran in ROM. The CoCo (of course) > had a BASIC interpretter in ROM, so you could type in and run programs > (it came with a fairly good BASIC tutorial manual). > ROM wasn't the issue. The fact that the CoCo would run only software on ROM puts it in a different category than that of a general purpose computer, which it only became after the addition of additonal hardware. That, BTW, was my point. In 1983, which was the last year in which I purchased any CP/M software, I had no fewer than 6 different 'C' compilers, 4 Pascal compilers, 2 Fortran compilers, PL/1, 3-4 BASIC interpreters and compilers, several assemblers, and a number of cross-assemblers, not to mention many other tools of various sorts. None of these were on ROM. All were from different vendors and not just different versions of the same program. There was the popular WordStar editor/word-processor, Dbase II, SuperCalc, and a pretty wide range of other "stuff" that one could find useful. I assume there were some such programs for the CoCo, as there were for a range of others. The Commodore boxes that had a Z80 inside could run CP/M in one version or another, and, if they had the appropriate means, e.g. a modem, they could get their software moved to that system easily enough. Ultimately, IIRC, one could even buy CP/M distribution media for the Commodores, which suggests they became pretty popular. Unfortunately, by the time you could buy a complete, OS-9-ready CoCo system, I'd bet you could by an MS-DOS capable system for about the same money and, likewise, for the Commodores. If you didn't mind plugging things together, you could buy a Ferguson Big Board in '80-81 (?) maybe '82, for about $299 and hook it up to your own 8" drives. By that time the drives were pretty cheap (not as cheap as today's 3-1/2" drives, of course) and the enclosures weren't badly priced. It came with the OS and didn't require a terminal. You'd hook it up to a keyboard and a modified TV or one with a video input, just as you might with any of the video-game-based computers. > > For saving, you had the cassette port. It worked pretty well in my > experience (you could load the stuff back in again :-)). Yes it was slow, > but it worked. > > Look, nobody is disputing there were better computers around at the time. > The CoCo was what, 1980? If you were rich enough you could buy a VAX :-). > But these home computers were cheap enough that people could actually > afford them and use them. IIRC, a 5.25" floppy drive cost a couple of > hundred dollars at that time (at least). So it's hardly suprising that > few home computers included them as standard. > ISTM that your monthly power bill for a VAX would have exceeded the cost of a current microcomputer of the early '80's. They didn't have the microVax yet. > > > Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? What software > > The serial port was intended to be used as a printer port. For some > reason it ran at 600 baud by default, but.... I suppose you believe that > all printers have a parallel interface? I do not! > The serial printers of the time seemed to work fine at low baud rates since they were most often the daisywheel types. Those cost WAY more than a person wishing to save money on a $399 CoCo would have wanted to pay. > > > was there, that you could install and use? How and where would you install > > it? When you finally decided you had to build your own hardware and write > > There was a fair amount of software available on ROM cartridges (aka > Program Paks). You just plugged them into the slot on the right hand side > of the machine. > > > > your own software, wouldn't it have been easier to use a wirewrap card and a > > CPU chip and start from scratch rather than having to work around all that > > stupid, Stupid, STUPID hardware they used? ... hardware you had to work > > Actually, the CoCo hardware was pretty nice, apart from the display (you > seem to regard this as being the most important part of a computer, I do > not). The hardware did _not_ generally get in the way of homebrew add-ons > (I speak from a lot of experience here, I've built all sorts of add-ons > for the CoCo). > It IS the most important part of the computer, since it's what you saw. The user interface seems, still, to be the primary issue in deciding on one system over another for home use. It's like the speakers in your sound system. I normally tell people to spend at least half their home stereo budget on speakers, half the remainder on their receiver/amplifier, and the remainder on signal sources. > > There was one big advantage to starting from a home computer rather than > just a CPU chip. You had a 'base system' that included enough software to > PEEK/POKE bytes to your homebrew add-on for testing. That alone made life > a lot easier when you were starting out. > If you were smart enough to build anything at all. you were smart enough to get a monitor program for some other system and build your hardware so it could execute that monitor. You had to start with something. True, a resident ROM was handy, provided you could make it go away. > > > hardware didn't cost less if you used one of the "toy"-based systems, and the > > software wasn't any more available than if you'd used a "real" computer. It > > probably would have cost less to use an Apple with a 6809 board in it (yes, > > I am well aware of the Apple 6809 board. I have one somewhere.... > > > there were some of those) than to make a COCO into a comparable computer. > > IIRC, RS computers were always priced near the top, while their quality was > > near the bottom. For something equal to, say, and Apple][,. I'd say you'd pay > > Odd... I've owned at least half a dozen TRS-80s. I've had very little > trouble with any of them. Unlike my Apple ][s which seem to be very > marginally designed.... > Yes, the Apples were marginally designed, and, I would suspect, continue to be. > > There was one _big_ advantage to Radio Shack machines (at least for me). > You could get documentation. Real documentation with schematics and > pinouts and the like. No hassle -- just walk into the shop and buy the > technical manual off the shelf. > True, not to mention that, back then, (1980) they were the only computer maker with a world-wide retail/service/distribution network. > > > nearly twice what a well-purchased Apple][ would have cost for a RS product of > > nearly similar actual capabilities. RS never did build something genuinely > > intended for expansion though, did they? > > Well, I guess the Multi-Pak was designed to have 4 cartridges plugged in > at once so you didn't have to keep on unpluging them when you wanted to > change programs. But I can assure you that most of them were used as > expansion backplanes so as to have the disk controller, serial port and a > couple of other hardware add-ons plugged in at the same time. > That's something I wasn't aware of, though I still maintain that RS really didn't intend for it to be used for 3rd party hardware. They certainly didn't provide paths, in general, by means of which one could expand a system beyond their own designs, which other mfg.'s often (possibly unintentionally) did. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Apr 26 10:50:14 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Ebay alert, Pacific NW, DEC gear In-Reply-To: <3CC9727A.8070804@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 26, 2002 11:30:02 AM Message-ID: <200204261550.g3QFoEE12569@narnia.int.dittman.net> > It's not my auction, and I wish I was close enough to investigate > further. The auction says he has 3 pages of components that he'll fax > to a potential bidder. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2019918462 I saw that, and like you, I'm too far away. Shipping would be expensive. I also don't really have a place for a 6610 right now. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 26 10:56:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > ... and you feel it's warranted to spend vast amounts of > money, which the > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data > in or out except > for single-bit LED's and a few switches when there's no other > means for > inserting/extracting information? Even Ed Roberts indicated Dick, I think you're the only one on the list who _wouldn't_ spend vast amounts of time and money for a computer like that ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 26 11:01:24 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] > Any tips, tricks, or other hints? Maybe something I missed? How > about other options for getting this puppy running? I used an RRD42 to install SunOS on a SPARC IPX. It had a strange problem where the install program would see some problem with the drive and abort. If you re-ran the install program a second time, it would complete fine. You might watch out for that. Also, some versions of Solaris *hate* non-sun drives, and won't boot from them. I don't know which ones, right off. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 26 11:17:46 2002 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204261517.IAA14272@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 26, 02 08:17:12 am Message-ID: <200204261617.MAA12134@wordstock.com> And thusly Cameron Kaiser spake: > > > So why do *you* bother drawing a distinction between the two if toys are a > valid use? A computer is a computer, no matter what it's used for, right? techweb defines "computer" as: A general-purpose machine that processes data according to a set of instructions that are stored internally either temporarily or permanently. The computer and all equipment attached to it are called hardware. The instructions that tell it what to do are called "software." A set of instructions that perform a particular task is called a "program" or "software program." > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- I use my C-128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. -- Bob Masse Who is Bob Masse? Cheers, Bryan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 11:22:51 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC97EDB.FD02243E@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > Those ENIAC guys are just lucky that Bill Gates was around to > give them a copy of MS-DOS when they needed it! > > No, I'm not exaggerating; yes, I did say he was a "programmer." With better marketing skills than codeing. :( -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 11:28:22 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC98026.4E209FFA@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > you write and > > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any > > I'm not sure whether there were any compilers available that > didn't require disk drives. It would have been possible (not > fun) given the proper programs. Fortran II could compile from paper tape on the IBM 1620. The PDP-8 had I think a paper tape version of fortran too, but not sure what version, II or IV. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 26 11:40:20 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C4@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from Christopher Smith at "Apr 26, 2 10:04:49 am" Message-ID: <200204261640.JAA28120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Actually, I don't remember what CPU was in the 1541 drives, but I > seem to recall that it was actually more powerful than the computer. More like "about the same" -- the 1541 is a 1MHz 6502, and the C64 is also approximately 1MHz (slightly less for PAL, slightly more for NTSC). The 1571 is 2MHz IIRC, but then the 128, which was its intended controlling machine, can also run at 2MHz. Many of the PET drives had multiple 650x CPUs, each handing different aspects such as FDC operation, GCR coding, etc. When the 2031 and the 1541 arrived, Commodore assigned all the tasks to one overworked CPU instead -- the CPU alternates between FDC and IP mode on interrupts. > I also remember somebody working on a way to get code into the drive > to be executed, but that's kind of fuzzy. That's easy to do with M-W/M-R commands to alter drive RAM; it's just slow to do transfers back and forth over the IEC bus, which fouls any useful attempt at cooperative processing (best to hand the drive a separate task to do all on its own), and there's not much RAM there -- only a few kilobytes, most of which is being used by the drive itself, of course. Several monitors featured "transparent" access to drive RAM where the monitor would treat drive RAM as if it were main memory. The communication speed, of course, invariably wrecked the otherwise clever illusion. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From mythtech at mac.com Fri Apr 26 11:37:26 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items Message-ID: >Performa 466, 467, 550, 275,, 560, 577,578, 658 How specific are you to the titel stamped on the case? I can give you an LC 550, but not a "Performa" 550. -chris From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 26 11:38:50 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's References: <3CC94999.29723.FF35446@localhost> Message-ID: <3CC9829A.94AF7413@compsys.to> >Hans Franke wrote: > > Jerome Fine wrote: > > As for the RAID 1 (mirroring) function, don't wait until you have > > a hard drive failure. Find some way to simulate an error - I just > > unplugged one hard drive. If the RAID 1 firmware/software > > can't handle the problem, then the mirroring function is not much > > use when you don't know what the problem is. So if the RAID 1 > > is not helpful after you have the problem and if you never have > > a problem you don't need RAID 1 in the first place, why bother. > Well, that's what I exectly started to test. As I told earlyer, > when plugging in a new disk it did duplicate the existing disk > onto the new one right away. The above mentioned test was if both > copies are independant usable as first drive for recovery. Jerome Fine replies: I find it extremely interesting that we both immediately thought about the problem in the same manner - we both assumed that the RAID 1 (mirroring) function MUST be verified via an operational test BEFORE we would rely on it. NOW, that says a great deal about the software industry in general. If anyone else is following this thread, please comment on what you perceive as your conclusions with respect to the reliability of software in general and any application that you have had difficulty with in particular. > I won't start the final test, the one where I put both disks > together again, to see how it recovers teh inconsistent system, > until next week, since I need the machine to woork the next 3 days. Which is another way of saying you can't trust the RAID 1 firmware before you test it. PLUS, these days most systems are so reliable that backups are rarely used - even though they are still ESSENTIAL since systems fail not only because of hardware, but from my experience more often due to faulty software. > > EXCEPT in my case, I kept it for the RAW SPEED. > That's why I used stripeing on my game machine :) Interesting that probably most RAID 1 controllers also incorporate higher throughput. Also, maybe I had better make sure I understand exactly what striping two hard disk drives does? My assumption is that with two identical hard disk drives, striping places half of the data on one drive and half on the other drive interleaved in some manner so as to increase throughput. Actually, this last sentence of yours is 99.9% of why I am responding. I have NEVER used striping. If I assume that I have two hard disk drives and use striping, can you suggest what the probable increase in throughput will be as compared with a single hard disk drive. (a) If I copy from one hard disk drive to a second hard disk drive (without striping), I can copy about 1 GByte per minute. (b) I don't know if it is even possible, but if I operate with striping using four identical hard disk drives which use striping in pairs (i.e. the operating system thinks there are ONLY two hard disk drives which are each double the size of any single drive), what would the likely increased throughput be assuming that the throughput limit is due to the hard disk drives in each situation, neither the PCI controller nor the motherboard memory (bandwidth in each case) being the limitation? Basically, I think my question is whether the firmware on the PCI controller is smart enough AND fast enough to combine (or de-combine) a buffer of information for a READ (or a WRITE) request from two separate sources. I realize that making one double sized drive from two smaller ones is helpful in and of itself, but I really can't see how striping can increase the throughput by very much if I am using really fast EIDE drives in the first place? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mythtech at mac.com Fri Apr 26 11:40:05 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT] Message-ID: > This may be an off-topic post, but Chris is nuts for old HP laser >printers and old Macs! More nuts for old Macs and Apple's. I wouldn't have done the drive for the printers if I didn't have a use for them. But for Mac's or Apple's... yeah, I'd have done it just to add yet another one to my pile (and if it was one I didn't already have... then I would have driven even farther) -chris From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Fri Apr 26 11:39:00 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: new server status and RFC on problem tracking database for all classic OS's References: <3CC94999.29723.FF35446@localhost> <002f01c1ed18$d4f26d20$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3CC982A4.2646F74F@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > My primary reason for using raid1 is speed. However, the failover is a great > added benefit (as long as the controller supports booting off the raid set - > some do, some don't). Jerome Fine replies: I must be very confused and missing something as well. Please set me straight. First, there are two methods of RAID 1 (Mirroring) implementation: (a) Using software within the operating system to perform each WRITE twice and perhaps using software again to allow the operating system to select the drive which has the head closer to a READ request. While the latter will save some time, the former is probably a time waster (in respect to a single drive system that does not support RAID 1). I understand that Windows NT (Yeck!) uses this method. (b) Use firmware within a separate controller and HIDE the second drive from the operating system. (I have this type of controller, but I found the RAID 1 firmware useless.) However, because my controller is able to support UDMA 100 I/O requests (there is a Pentium III 750 and motherboard which supports ONLY IDE speed access), the sustained throughput via the PCI controller for the EIDE hard drives is perhaps FOUR times the throughput for these same hard drives using just the motherboard. BUT, I don't believe it is fair to say that the RAID 1 function (if it did work) is faster because the RAID 1 controller supports faster throughput. Indeed, since I rejected the (totally incompetent implementation of the) RAID 1 firmware and ONLY keep this PCI controller because the additional speed is a big advantage, I tend to reject any conclusion that the RAID 1 function is faster in and of itself - it is the PCI controller that is faster and if the RAID 1 function worked well, that would be a bonus. So maybe we are each saying exactly the same thing, but from a slightly different point of view - or perhaps Jay did not expand what was said sufficiently to bring out the point that his RAID 1 controller is faster as well, but since the RAID 1 function does work, both aspects have been joined into a single improvement. As for backups, I just use the additional drives that I was going to use in the RAID 1 configuration as storage for my daily backup which takes only 10 minutes due to the speed of the PCI controller for the EIDE drives. And while it does take my personal time and attention, I also have the advantage of having a whole layer of backups which I would not have with only a RAID 1 configuration. This latter aspect is, in my opinion, probably more of and advantage than having only a single working backup at any time which is identical to my primary copy from a hardware point of view, but could contain corrupted information due to software problems. I realize that each person will have a different point of view. My observations are not meant to criticize what you said since every computer system is also different and there will obviously be a different set of priorities. All I wanted to do was to mention how I handled the RAID 1 problems and my solution along with reasons. By the way, the PCI (non-RAID 1) controller is under $ US 100. The 40 GBytes EIDE hard drives are under $ US 100 each. Economics does, in my opinion, also play an essential role when decisions are made. If anyone else has any RAID 1 observations and suggestions, I would like to read other points of view. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Apr 26 11:53:50 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467888@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Christopher Smith > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] > > > Any tips, tricks, or other hints? Maybe something I missed? How > > about other options for getting this puppy running? > > I used an RRD42 to install SunOS on a SPARC IPX. It > had a strange problem where the install program would see some problem > with the drive and abort. If you re-ran the install program a second > time, it would complete fine. You might watch out for that. > > Also, some versions of Solaris *hate* non-sun drives, and won't > boot from them. I don't know which ones, right off. > > Chris > Okay, I'll keep that in mind. I'll be installing the Solaris 8 Binary-Only deal... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 26 11:56:18 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <200204261617.MAA12134@wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Apr 26, 2 12:17:46 pm" Message-ID: <200204261656.JAA18424@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > So why do *you* bother drawing a distinction between the two if toys are a > > valid use? A computer is a computer, no matter what it's used for, right? > > techweb defines "computer" as: > > A general-purpose machine that processes data according to a set of > instructions that are stored internally either temporarily or > permanently. The computer and all equipment attached to it are called > hardware. The instructions that tell it what to do are called > "software." A set of instructions that perform a particular task is > called a "program" or "software program." Exactly my point. Calling a lower-power computer a "toy" is simply an artificial and needlessly pejorative designation. > > I use my C-128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. --Bob Masse > Who is Bob Masse? He was on comp.sys.cbm for awhile but I haven't seen him recently. Another Inland Empire Commodore guy along with Todd Elliott and myself. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: You will be hit with a lot of money. Avoid armoured trucks. ------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 11:54:57 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <004d01c1ed39$89c6a3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CC98661.C01469F8@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > The Apple][ didn't really need a lot of plugging. It was designed to be a > computer, though its predecessor, the Apple I had signal names on its > schematic that clearly indicated it was intended as a video device more than > as a general purpose computer. That was probably reasonable since everything > had to be slaved to the video refresh timing. The TRS-80 was in the stores > nearly a year before the expansion interface, disk drives, and OS were > available. I don't know what the story on the PET was, as there were no > outlets for them here in the Denver area that kept 'em in stock. They > certainly didn't have an OS or anything of the sort until well after their > market window in the U.S. had closed. AFAIK, their successes were mainly in > the European market. I remember seeing their ads in mags brought back from > Europe, but in the entire time I was looking ad commercial systems, the only > PET I ever saw, in private hands or in the hands of a merchant, was the > original 4K PET with the toy (Chiclet?) keyboard. The C64 doesn't fit in the > same generation with these early machines. Well Cassette I/O and TV video out and a cheap keyboard with BASIC is what I call a 'Toy/Games' computer. Any computer with less than 48k of memory I consider a control computer from that era of computing. Note the price of game consoles have stayed about the same $299-$399 and real computers $899-$1299. (Canadian) > The serial printers of the time seemed to work fine at low baud rates since > they were most often the daisywheel types. Those cost WAY more than a person > wishing to save money on a $399 CoCo would have wanted to pay. The only printers for the coco really was the RS ones and really crappy at that too! > It IS the most important part of the computer, since it's what you saw. The > user interface seems, still, to be the primary issue in deciding on one system > over another for home use. It's like the speakers in your sound system. I > normally tell people to spend at least half their home stereo budget on > speakers, half the remainder on their receiver/amplifier, and the remainder on > signal sources. What no $$$ for the tubes ??? Good way to buy a sound system. > True, not to mention that, back then, (1980) they were the only computer maker > with a world-wide retail/service/distribution network. Often the only store that sold computerrs in a small town! > That's something I wasn't aware of, though I still maintain that RS really > didn't intend for it to be used for 3rd party hardware. They certainly didn't > provide paths, in general, by means of which one could expand a system beyond > their own designs, which other mfg.'s often (possibly unintentionally) did. That is true of 99% of all the computer systems. With the PC it really only took off once the clones came in. In hindsight nobody other than OS/9 systems really produced a good computer system in the 1980's. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 26 12:14:11 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <000701c1ed45$c96350a0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > Christopher Smith wrote: > > you write and > > > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any > > > > I'm not sure whether there were any compilers available that > > didn't require disk drives. It would have been possible (not > > fun) given the proper programs. > > Fortran II could compile from paper tape on the IBM 1620. > The PDP-8 had I think a paper tape version of fortran too, > but not sure what version, II or IV. I think this might be an articial distinction... All the operating systems for the CDC 6600 and its kin required some kind of disk or drum drive, where parts of the operating system would reside. However, the compiler itself could just as easily have been loaded and run from tape in the Chippewa OS. The FORTRAN programs it processed could be on magtape or on cards; Chippewa doesn't seem to have any papertape support. There does not appear to be any support for the user or even the operator to have disk-resident files, as there was no filesystem to speak of in Chippewa. -dq From meltie at myrealbox.com Fri Apr 26 12:23:55 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Calling all VAX 11/750 owners Message-ID: <1019841835.4c842ff9meltie@myrealbox.com> Hello all, if you've got a VAX 11/750 in running order, please could you contact me directly (I want piccies of specific bits of your VAX to help me getting mine running.) I've been through all the docs and bits I received with the VAX, and i've got a big box of TU58 tapes, ranging from VMS install 3.1 to 5.2, VAX Fortran, and a few tapes marked TU58 Demo, or some weird filesystem names (i'll remember them later), or "Property of DEC". I've also found a board marked "Property of DEC, Do not Remove", and discovered how hard it is to fit two- and four-finger cards into a six-finger backplane. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 26 12:24:43 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work > would it do with the > $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could > you write and > compile a Fortran program? A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in ANY language. There was a fairly good (even though Microsoft) BASIC interpreter in ROM. A REAL programmer could write a FORTRAN program with it. > Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? Of course! Although it took me 15 minutes to make a cable, my DTC-300 (HiType I daisy wheel terminal) printed immediately. > What software > was there, that you could install and use? A "TOY" computer comes with software. With a REAL computer, you have to program. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 26 12:31:33 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data > Dick, I think you're the only one on the list who _wouldn't_ spend > vast amounts of time and money for a computer like that ;) Isn't that one of the ones for which he saves the power cord and dumpsters the machine EVERY time he finds one? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 26 12:39:48 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <3CC98026.4E209FFA@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any > > I'm not sure whether there were any compilers available that > > didn't require disk drives. It would have been possible (not > > fun) given the proper programs. > Fortran II could compile from paper tape on the IBM 1620. 35 years ago, I was using PDQ FORTRAN on a 1620, using punch cards. "PDQ" == "Pretty Damn Quirky"? It was sort of II. 5 years ago, I was unable to stop college administrators from destroying the last copy of the punch card deck of the compiler. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 26 12:03:56 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <41575B2947B7D411A03C00508BCFF162708FD2@usa07.cs.lmco.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020426130356.0082f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> They show up on E-bay frequently. I used to have an extra but I can't find it now. Joe At 11:22 AM 4/26/02 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone know where I could pick up/buy one of these pieces of test >equipment? > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 26 12:53:04 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <3CC98661.C01469F8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > The only printers for the coco really was the RS ones and really crappy > at that too! ANY "RS-232" printer that was switchable to "AUTO LF" would work just fine. And, with a serial/parallel converter (reaily available, and which quite a few people here are capable of building), parallel "centronics" printers worked. I used a Coco with DTC-300 (HiType I daisy wheel, with 4004 processor), Centronics 101 (weighed 4 zillion times what the computer did), silly radio shack pen plotter/printer, Epson MX-100, and HP Laserjet! Which of those is the crappiest? > Often the only store that sold computerrs in a small town! And credited with being the reason for the flourishing mail-order business. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Apr 26 13:08:02 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467889@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > > > > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data > > Dick, I think you're the only one on the list who _wouldn't_ spend > > vast amounts of time and money for a computer like that ;) > > Isn't that one of the ones for which he saves the power cord and dumpsters > the machine EVERY time he finds one? > Did someone say power cords??? I got a box of about 4 dozen if you need any. -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 26 13:01:12 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: > I didn't ask, but probably. I imagine every chip is a copy of > the Pentium, in fact. How would MS-DOS run otherwise? We all > know that even the Great Bill Gates wasn't able to make his > Wonderful Windows Operating System function without MS-DOS, so > it must certainly be impossible for anyone else. ;) > Those ENIAC guys are just lucky that Bill Gates was around to > give them a copy of MS-DOS when they needed it! > No, I'm not exaggerating; yes, I did say he was a "programmer." Harrumph. I would think that any real programmer would know that they are all based on the Z-80. From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 26 13:06:28 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN Message-ID: <000701c1ed4d$16e97d70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > > When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work would it do with the > > $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could you write and > > compile a Fortran program? > > A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in ANY language. > There was a fairly good (even though Microsoft) BASIC interpreter in ROM. > A REAL programmer could write a FORTRAN program with it. Harrumph! My Data Structures prof lamented the fact (by his observation) that most people write Pascal in its FORTRAN subset... My first computer language was ALFIE, Algebraic Language For Interactive Environments on the CDC 6500 at Purdue. It was a superset of BASIC that most notably inluded FORTRAN FORMATted I/O (READ & WRITE when issued with a line number reference were FORTRAN style, the line number cntaining a FORMAT statement). Good Morning! This is ALFIE! Teletype ASR33 bell. -dq From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 26 13:13:00 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <000a01c1ed4e$1b079bc0$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > >> What software >> was there, that you could install and use? > >A "TOY" computer comes with software. With a REAL computer, you have to >program. No, A TOY is somthing for playing with. An APPLIANCE is a computer that comes with software that might be useful. An example of such an APPLIANCE is a sad affair as it could be a useful computer if you could program it. Allison . From rmoyers at nop.org Thu Apr 25 21:56:48 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: C-64 vs the world (vintage flamebait) (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200204260256.g3Q2utR05384@Fubar.nop.org> On Wednesday 24 April 2002 01:27, you wrote: > As for the rest of you honking geese, here's an excerpt from a letter > printed in the "Chaos Manner Mail" column, from the same issue of "Byte": > > "Dear Jerry," It dont change the fact the unix guys are right. I was one such "outsider" the old letter spoke of All of us had to start somewhere, sometime. and guess what ... the unix guys was right. right to the degree that its the flavor of objective truth, not opinion. From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri Apr 26 13:38:00 2002 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (lee courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Calling all VAX 11/750 owners In-Reply-To: <1019841835.4c842ff9meltie@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20020426183800.48172.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> Alex, My 750 is just waiting for me to cable it up and get going. I'm in need of a 1/2" tape drive and associated interface card(s) so any leads are appreciated. THanks, Lee Courtney lee_courtney@acm.org --- Alex White wrote: > Hello all, if you've got a VAX 11/750 in running > order, please could you contact me directly (I want > piccies of specific bits of your VAX to help me > getting mine running.) > > I've been through all the docs and bits I received > with the VAX, and i've got a big box of TU58 tapes, > ranging from VMS install 3.1 to 5.2, VAX Fortran, > and a few tapes marked TU58 Demo, or some weird > filesystem names (i'll remember them later), or > "Property of DEC". > > I've also found a board marked "Property of DEC, Do > not Remove", and discovered how hard it is to fit > two- and four-finger cards into a six-finger > backplane. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Apr 26 13:43:07 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items References: Message-ID: <00f501c1ed52$35a39a20$2c000240@default> Thanks but I already have 2 LC550's in the collection. These 34 or so are the one's I really need to make it complete. It started out as 103 models but now because models I didn't know about but have picked over the years it may end up over 150 different models. I will print the list once the collection is done. Thanks for the offer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: Re: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items > >Performa 466, 467, 550, 275,, 560, 577,578, 658 > > How specific are you to the titel stamped on the case? I can give you an > LC 550, but not a "Performa" 550. > > -chris > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 13:46:59 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:13 2005 Subject: So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN References: <000701c1ed4d$16e97d70$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3CC9A0A3.8BB1B299@jetnet.ab.ca> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > My Data Structures prof lamented the fact (by his observation) > that most people write Pascal in its FORTRAN subset... 10 C WHAT SUBSET IS THAT? 20 C MY GRIPE WITH PASCAL WAS THAT IT WAS ALL ONE PROGRAM 30 C EVERY FORTRAN AFTER II COULD HAVE MODULES DEFINED 40 C .NOR. COULD YOU EVER FIGURE OUT 50 C WHEN TO PUT A SEMI-COLEN .OR. .NOT. AT THE END OF A 60 C STATEMENT 100 STOP From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Apr 26 13:49:54 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844CB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Franchuk [mailto:bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca] > Christopher Smith wrote: > > I'm not sure whether there were any compilers available that > > didn't require disk drives. It would have been possible (not > > fun) given the proper programs. > Fortran II could compile from paper tape on the IBM 1620. > The PDP-8 had I think a paper tape version of fortran too, > but not sure > what version, II or IV. ... but we were talking about the Tandy Color Computer, specifically. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 14:12:00 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844CB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CC9A680.967CA04F@jetnet.ab.ca> Christopher Smith wrote: > > ... but we were talking about the Tandy Color Computer, > specifically. :) Other cassette assembler there was not much more. Forth came on a ROM I think. Cassette is better for program loading than program development. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dquebbeman at acm.org Fri Apr 26 14:20:35 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN Message-ID: <000701c1ed57$719b8600$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > My Data Structures prof lamented the fact (by his observation) > > that most people write Pascal in its FORTRAN subset... > > 10 C WHAT SUBSET IS THAT? (* The subset wherein everything is type in UPPER CASE and no variable names were longer than six characters. *) > 20 C MY GRIPE WITH PASCAL WAS THAT IT WAS ALL ONE PROGRAM > 30 C EVERY FORTRAN AFTER II COULD HAVE MODULES DEFINED (* Pascal had adherents early, but it remained a teaching language until the early 1980s. Although Turbo Pascal didn't permit modules, it did provide $INCLUDE files, and depending on the application area, you could often accomplish the same thing using includes. *) > 40 C .NOR. COULD YOU EVER FIGURE OUT > 50 C WHEN TO PUT A SEMI-COLEN .OR. .NOT. AT THE END OF A > 60 C STATEMENT (* Oh, IIRC, the semicolon is a STATEMENT TERMINATOR in Algol; in Pascal, it's statement seperator. That should make it clear. *) > 100 STOP END. -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From morgarws at mh.us.sbphrd.com Fri Apr 26 14:31:49 2002 From: morgarws at mh.us.sbphrd.com (morgarws@mh.us.sbphrd.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Request for Help with the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC Coprocessor board) Message-ID: <200204261931.PAA09018@phu655.um.us.sbphrd.com> I'm looking for any documentation and software for the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC/XT coprocessor board). ... anything would be useful! Thanks in Advance, Bill Morgart morgarws@Molbio.sbphrd.com From mythtech at mac.com Fri Apr 26 15:01:04 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items Message-ID: >Thanks but I already have 2 LC550's in the collection. These 34 or so >are the one's I really need to make it complete. It started out as 103 >models but now because models I didn't know about but have picked over >the years it may end up over 150 different models. I will print the >list once the collection is done. Thanks for the offer. You are being a little more religious than I. I just want one of every major model (so Performa 475, LC 475 or Quadra 605, doesn't matter to me, since they are all the same model... also I'm not going after getting a 475,476,478 or other submodels). I am sure once I get one of every major model, I will then probably follow in your footsteps and try to get one of everything out there. -chris From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Apr 26 15:09:14 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Request for Help with the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC Coprocessor board) References: <200204261931.PAA09018@phu655.um.us.sbphrd.com> Message-ID: <003e01c1ed5e$3e52b140$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I vaguely remember that BYTE ran a story on than one between 10 & 15 years ago (Circuit Cellar ??) Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:31 PM Subject: Request for Help with the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC Coprocessor board) > I'm looking for any documentation and software for the Definicon DSI-32 > (NS32032 PC/XT coprocessor board). ... anything would be useful! > > Thanks in Advance, > > Bill Morgart > morgarws@Molbio.sbphrd.com > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 26 15:29:11 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11) In-Reply-To: <200204251843.AA03367@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> Message-ID: <20020426202911.90929.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Carl Lowenstein wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > I have an RKV11D... I also happen to have an RK11C, but in 18 years, I have never managed to hook it up and power it on. Got the prints, got spares, got drives, etc. Don't got enough time. :-( > The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus interface. > Sort of a built-in Qniverter. That makes sense. The handle numbers on the boards in the controller enclosure match the RK11D, so I figured that was what was going on. Looks like a 16-bit bus extender paddle card for the Qbus end, plus a strange bus interface in the controller box. The IB11 is similar, but is a dual-height IVB11 (IEEE-488 interface, standard equipment in a MINC) in a 4-slot, hex-height backplane with a DEC bus perverter, meant to be mounted in a BA-11. > Unfortunately the designers skimped on the extended address bits, > so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space. Not surprising. That seriously limits what I can do with it. I may try to resurrect the 11/03 that this RKV11D came with, but I'd be limited in what I could do with RT-11 at that point. Will Kermit-11 work for me if I only have 56KB of RAM? Is it possible to run a KDF11 CPU in a 16-bit-address environment? All I really want to do is make physical backups of disk packs, etc., and get them to a CD burner. > I think that hardware hacks to add two address bits to make the RKV11 > compatible with the RK!1 have been published, but I don't remember where. Ooh! I'd love to see it. I _do_ have some 22-bit bus extender cards/ cables (from a dual BA23 uVAX system)... so if the BC08 cables are wired the same, I might be able to forego modding the Qbus end. At this point, I may have to start digging into a couple of cabinets I got last year that came with multiple RK05 drives - I haven't completely gone over them, but I presume the RK controller is an RK11D. At least, I didn't see an RK11C. Hard to miss... somewhat large. I should get some pictures. I might have to switch gears and go with an 11/34 or 11/24 for my media rescue box. I should be able to accomodate DECtape I, DECtape II (which I can already do with a PeeCee), RK05J (16-bit), RL01, RL02, RX01 (not sure if I have an RX211) and 1600 bpi tape (TU-80, so no other densities). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ From philpem at bigfoot.com Fri Apr 26 16:14:55 2002 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: WTD: Datasheets for PMC Sierra modem chips Message-ID: <00c301c1ed67$6c259020$0100005a@phoenix> Hi, I've just been going through a load of old boards that I had occupying space and I'd like to put some of the components to good use. I've already located datasheets for a Motorola DSP56001FE27 digital signal processor I found (time to build an MP3 player!), but a few of the parts have turned up dead ends for data. The parts in question are Sierra Semiconductor (now PMC-Sierra) SC11011CV/ADA, SC11026CN and SC22201CN chips, used on what appears to be an old modem. I've had a look on FreeTradeZone (free? not bloody likely) and the datasheets have been locked (the chips are obsolete). Anyone got PDFs (or paper copies) of these datasheets? I'd like to get these chips doing something (other than taking up valuable space), but it's a bit diffiicult without the datasheets! Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.btinternet.co.uk/ From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Fri Apr 26 16:15:49 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] Message-ID: <200204262115.AA05571@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > From: David Woyciesjes > To: "'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'" > Subject: RE: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav > en, CT] > Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:11:26 -0400 > Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > From: Bill Pechter > > > > > Anyway, to my point... This is off-topic, so taking it off-list is > > > appropriate I believe... I have a Sun Ultra1 Creator. (170E, Open Boot > > 3.1, > > > 128 MB RAM, 4 GB Quantum, 1 GB Conner, floppy disk... old 19" Sun color > > > monitor, type 5c keyb, optical mouse w/proper silver pad!) Well, now > > that I > > > finally got the Creator framebuffer replaced, it's time to load Solaris. > > > Except that all the CD-ROMS I have aren't even seen by the console... > > And I > > > tried the sector size jumper both ways. > > > > > > -- > > > > try to describe the scsi bus and termination. > > do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... > > > > let me know what that does. I'm pretty sure that there is a Sun screwup in the Ultra1 boot ROM such that "probe-scsi" doesn't work right when "auto-boot" is enabled. auto-boot?=false carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein@ucsd.edu From spedraja at ono.com Fri Apr 26 16:42:26 2002 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? References: <201ffb2043c0.2043c0201ffb@ono.com> <005d01c1ed26$1515b990$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001301c1ed6b$4226b0c0$0201a8c0@cavorita.net> Great ! Next question: Where ? (Answer privately if you prefers). Thanks and Greetings Sergio > Yes > > Thanks. Do it exist some available copy of some operative OS for > > the HP2100 (in form of PaperTape, Virtual Disk or so) ? From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 26 17:14:24 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III Message-ID: <200204262214.PAA06400@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Well, I'm now the (proud?) owner of a Commodore PC-20-III. Ironically, this is a Commodore I know little about although it is a more or less vanilla PC clone, but there are some weird things about it. First, there's a composite video out on it. What kind of graphics did these have in them? I haven't cracked the case yet, but there's also apparently a video card in one of the slots (with six DIP switches? used for what?) and a two-port card with two DB-15s on it that I can't immediately identify. Anyone out there own one of these and can tell me a little about it? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If at first you don't succeed, don't go skydiving. ------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 26 17:41:00 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] In-Reply-To: from "Carl Lowenstein" at Apr 26, 2002 02:15:49 PM Message-ID: <200204262241.g3QMf0J22604@shell1.aracnet.com> > > > try to describe the scsi bus and termination. > > > do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... > > > > > > let me know what that does. > > I'm pretty sure that there is a Sun screwup in the Ultra1 boot ROM such > that "probe-scsi" doesn't work right when "auto-boot" is enabled. > > auto-boot?=false After turning off auto-boot you need to type 'reset' and hit return, this is true on both Ultra 1's and 2's. If the auto-boot is already off, you still need to do a 'reset' before doing teh probe-scsi/probe-scsi-all. Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 26 12:57:32 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Unix versions" (Apr 26, 10:19) References: <200204261419.g3QEJpp3038443@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <10204261857.ZM6526@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 26, 10:19, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I'm slightly puzzled by what you say about DEC X-11, though. My exposure > > to it and XXDP is only in the form of the diagnostics available to end > > users and third-party service organisations, and I suspect there's more to > > it than that. The reason I think of XXDP as the OS and X-11 as the, well, > > application in a way, is that all I see are the X-11 modules to run build > > and series of tests, whereas XXDP includes the monitor, system handlers etc > > (as well as the diagnostic programs and utilites, of course). To me, > > that's the OS. > > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > You're exactly correct, except the XXDP doesn't have drivers for > the comm gear and other stuff, whereas DECX/11 can have modules > running simulating disk and tape i/o, comm i/o and can do task > scheduling and timeouts. Also DECX/11 is interrupt driven where most of > XXDP polls status registers. Yes, I knew about the polled operation. > I stretched my view a bit. DEC training called XXDP a diagnostic > monitor... which was ok until the DS> diagnostic supervisor got loose... > and the names collided. > > The XXDP monitor is single tasking, non-interrupt driven, polling and > can hang forever waiting for an event that never comes. DECX/11 won't. > DECX/11 seemed much more os-like. Batch streams do exist in XXDP > (the .ccc chain files) -- but that's just minimal scripting. Yes, .ccc is of rather limited use. Enough for sets of diagnostics and not much more, really. Thanks for the information -- I'm enlightened. Did DECX/11 ever make it outside of DEC's walls, other than in the form of strings of modules for field confidence tests? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From GColinwg at aol.com Fri Apr 26 18:48:35 2002 From: GColinwg at aol.com (GColinwg@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 Message-ID: Hello my name is Colin from (UK) i also have just got an Amstrad ppc640 just for messing around on.... but it doesn't have any operating system on it and won't recognise any disks as when i boot it up it always says invalid system disk... i am using both 720k diskettes and have tried 1.44meg and tried putting all dos versions and windows 95 onto it.... any advice would be most grateful.... Yours... Colin E-mail ---- GColinwg@aol.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 26 18:19:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204261342.JAA08890@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Apr 26, 2 09:42:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/cca4ed30/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 26 18:26:03 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <002b01c1ed30$7daeb7e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 26, 2 08:41:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/50a20f6f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 26 18:55:39 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <004d01c1ed39$89c6a3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 26, 2 09:46:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 11305 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/f10969ba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 26 19:09:47 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 In-Reply-To: from "GColinwg@aol.com" at Apr 26, 2 07:48:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1041 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/f145eda9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 26 19:14:40 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: <200204262214.PAA06400@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 26, 2 03:14:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1309 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/44abffcc/attachment.ksh From vp at mcs.drexel.edu Fri Apr 26 19:27:06 2002 From: vp at mcs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: HP 9000/300 wanted Message-ID: <200204270027.UAA16619@king.mcs.drexel.edu> Hi, I'd like to experiment with OpenBSD on the HP 300 platform (mainly because these machines have both HP-IB interfaces and Ethernet interfaces). My intention is to make either an HP-IB to Ethernet gateway or at the very least write software enabling the HP 300 to emulate a CS-80 disk drive. If anybody has hardware that they are willing to sell, advice or links, I'd very grateful. Thanks **vp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 26 19:39:31 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: <200204262214.PAA06400@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 26, 2 03:14:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 919 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/20722432/attachment.ksh From aek at spies.com Fri Apr 26 19:55:34 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <200204270055.RAA10939@spies.com> > Does anyone know where I could pick up/buy one of these pieces of test > equipment? I have several without pods (the expensive part) From aek at spies.com Fri Apr 26 20:00:59 2002 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? Message-ID: <200204270100.SAA11452@spies.com> > Next question: Where ? You probably aren't going to find a disc image that you can boot on SIMH in the near future. HP sold EACH program separately, and what is currently available are several thousand paper tape images that will require someone with DOS or RTE experence to sysgen. You will need the docs, too, which currently have been scanned, but haven't been cleaned up or pdf-ed and won't be available for at least a month. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 26 20:12:17 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 27, 2 01:39:31 am" Message-ID: <200204270112.SAA15976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > A little more information, now that I've found my folder of PC10/PC20 > schematics... > > The 'motherboard' is really I/O only (looks to be a serial port, a > parallel port, and an FDC). The CPU card plugs into a special slot on > this board -- it appears the CPU is an 8088 with (optional?) 8087 > coprocessor. > > There were at least 3 video cards : Monochrome (looks to be MDA), Color > (looks to be CGA) and 'Advanced Monochrome' (looks to be Hercules). I > can't be absolutely sure about that because all the cards have programmed > PALs or PLAs on them and I don't have any info on what's inside them. The > only one to have a composite output is the Color one. And none of them > have DIP switches that I can see. > > So I would guess the card you have with the DIP switches is a generic > clone card. As is the one with the 2 DA15s on it. For some ungodly reason I can't find a screwdriver around here to open the case, but I did boot the machine up. It seems to have DOS 3.21 on it but the Commodore-specific tools I distantly remember having to use are still there such as the software SPEED.EXE and something called SETCLOCK. The card is, unbelievably, VGA -- it's a Cirrus Logic of some iteration based on the startup with an Award BIOS? The disk seems to be around 20MB. I'm assuming this is *not* IDE. Whoever had this last made a hash out of it, files scattered everywhere :-P The BIOS identifies itself as (C)1986 Commodore Electronics Ltd and seems to be a Phoenix type. I can't figure out how to get into the BIOS setup. Neat feature: all the devices are identified with their detected port addresses. There is a SHIPDISK.COM utility which I'm assuming parks the heads, unless people have another suggestion. Hope so, since this machine will travel about 120 miles on Sunday :-) Any other ideas until I can get some tools to crack this open and clean up? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Mmmm, Windows user. Crunchy and good with ketchup. -- Dave McGuire --------- From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri Apr 26 20:17:53 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c1ed89$5b255400$6e7ba8c0@piii933> The serial number of my first PC was 0106440. I think there was an extra DB plate on the back and I'm pretty sure there were drive mounting holes in the bottom of the case. There was also a cutout in the case bottom below the power supply and the case cover was held on by two screws rather than the five screws of the later PC and XT cases. It also had the 64K motherboard and a black 63.5 watt power supply, but with a red switch. I don't think I've ever seen a white one. . . The oldest IBM PC I currently own (purchased last year) is nearly the same without the knockout plate and case bottom screws, but then the serial number is 0219682. At least I still have the original manuals (DOS, BASIC and Guide to Operations) from the first PC along with the receipt ($2235 for the 48k PC, $90 for 16K additional, $50 for the Sup R Mod V, $300 for the color adapter and $40 for DOS 1.0. I also bought 10 diskettes for $42 and the Technical Reference Manual for $36 when I bought the system. That first machine was traded for an IBM AT after a bit. That box hosted a BBS system I ran in New York and then San Antonio for over 7 years before being retired. Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:17 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote: > My bad on the disk size. My memory gets worse and worse. 'salright; Few folk remember even that much. > I eventually did buy TM100-2s for that machine and expanded it with a > Quadboard and bulk-purchased 4164s. A surplus B&W composite monitor served > for a bit before a Princeton RGB display replaced it. I wish I'd have saved > that machine. I haven't seen one with a lower serial number since. Why? What number was it? (Now I'm going to have to dig deep to check mine.) Did yours have the extra DB blockoff plate on the back panel? Did it have a drive mounting screw coming up from the bottom? My first 5150 came from IBM with a WHITE (NOT RED!) power switch, and a BLACK power supply (63.5W?) These days, I hardly EVER even see the 16K-64K motherboard ones. > IBM was pricey in the day, but they were competitive. You still pay nearly > $3K for cutting edge. But since it used the same drives and RAM as TRS-80, it wasn't VERY hard to find substantially cheaper aftermarket prices (among TRS-80 sources), rather than paying IBM prices. For example: IIRC, IBM wanted $540 for Tandon TM100-1, but I could get one with case and power supply for TRS-80 for $225, or about $150 for bare drive. The RF-Modulator (SupRModII) was readily available from Apple sources. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dancohoe at oxford.net Fri Apr 26 23:14:02 2002 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <41575B2947B7D411A03C00508BCFF162708FD2@usa07.cs.lmco.com> Message-ID: <000001c1eda2$f66c44a0$241defd1@DCOHOE> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Haag, Troy > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:23 AM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: Re: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? > > > Does anyone know where I could pick up/buy one of these pieces of test > equipment? I have one of these with manuals and acessories for the 8088, 8080, 6502 and 6809. I recently ran across several other units with a few interface pods. I looked at them before I found the one that I bought at a university disposal sale, and I expect they are still available. I'll be returning to the place where I saw them before Dayton. I can provide information from the manuals if you need it. Dan Cohoe From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 26 20:32:27 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467889@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Did someone say power cords??? I got a box of about 4 dozen if you need any. Heh. I can get you about 4 dozen boxes of 'em.... Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 26 20:35:37 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items In-Reply-To: <007901c1ed32$c906d360$2c000240@default> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Now for the wanted items - looking to complete my Mac collection that I > started years ago trying to collect one of each model from 1984 to 1995 > for a total of 103 machines. > PB160 - working or not > Mac 512Ke > Quadra 800 > WGS60 > Performa 466, 467, 550, 275,, 560, 577,578, 658 Killer haul. Sure you don't want a Performa 200? Doc From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Apr 26 20:46:32 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Free chips to good home In-Reply-To: <3CC97609.C57F143@ecubics.com> Message-ID: I've got some chips sitting around that may (or may not) interest the classiccmp'ers. 2 MC68010LC10 (10Mhz "aircraft carrier" (DIP-64) 68010s) 1 MC68010R10 (10Mhz PGA 68010) 4 AT&T DSP-16a 2 Acorn chip sets (VL86C010 + VL86C410 + VL86C110) 1 AMD 9511D (DIP Arithimetic Co-processor) 4 COM9046 (SMC voice scramblers) The DSPs, Acorns, 9511, and COM9046s are all new. The 68Ks are pulls. If I mail these, they're free. If it's UPS, priority mail, or anything else, all I ask for is the shipping cost. --John From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri Apr 26 20:48:55 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <009401c1ec98$de417360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <000001c1ed8d$b0b52e00$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Some of the items from the "Book of Receipts" I got with the Altair systems I purchased last month: >From Morrow Computer & Electronics Design Inc: 1 MITS Altair system, Okidata printer, ADM 1, dual disk drives, mainframe, memory boards, 2SIO, Prom, ACR $5000.00 + $50 to ship. - 11/29/78 >From the Byte Shop: SSM-MB3 - $65, 2 2708s - $49 each, 4 1702a's for $35, 4 S-100 edge connectors for $5 each and a roll of black tape for $4.25. - 12/28/76 >From Solid State Music, Inc: 1 MB3 (2K/4K EPROM card) - $64.95. 8080 Monitor on 8 1702s - $25. - 12/14/77 (why would he keep the receipt but not the manual!) >From Processor Technology Corp: VDM-1 Video Display Module - $160, 3P+S I/O Module - $125. - 4/12/76 (I have the Processor Tech price sheet from March 1, 1976 stapled to this receipt) >From MITS Inc: 88-16MCD (assembled) - $395, 88-2SIO w/1 port kit - $160, 88-SP K (extra Port for 88-2SIO) - $50. - 12/6/77 >From Microsystems: ADM-3 Lear Siegler kit - $875. - 11/2/76 >From Microsystems: 88-16MCS (16K static - Kit) $765, 88-VI (Vectored Interrupt) $138, 88-RTC (real time clock) $53. - 4/10/76 >From MITS Inc: 8800 Kit with 4K dynamic RAM, 2SIO, 4K BASIC on paper tape and an extra port for the 2SIO - $719. - 4/9/76 That's most of the interesting stuff. Every invoice or receipt is accompanied by a check stub which verifies the amounts paid. There are a ton of "repair" invoices in this book. Over the course of about 3 years there seem to have been about 8 to 10 instances where boards or entire systems were sent out for repair. Typical repairs cost about $120. This book also has several MITS catalogs and price lists which I'll scan and post at some later date. Cheers! Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:36 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) That might prove VERY interesting, particularly if the dates are still legible. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik S. Klein" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:31 PM Subject: RE: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > I still have many of my old computer receipts. > > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. > > I have a notebook full of receipts and invoices that came with a pair of > Altairs. In addition to the costs for the specific machines there are also > receipts for various other hardware items including old Cromemco and SOL > stuff. I'll have to take a more careful look at some point and either scan > those or post the prices here. > > Erik S. Klein > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > On another note, I concede that Byte is not the best price guide, but > > it's the resource I had available. I'm still skeptical the difference > > was THAT great. > > I would tend to agree with you. I remember looking at prices in Byte > and being disgusted at the time, but if you could afford to advertise > there, you weren't small potatoes. > > Computer Shopper is a good place for bargain prices of the day, with > less "print lag" than Byte. One of the things I hated was seeing "*CALL*" > for 80% of prices for what I was interested in, but I know that things > changed too fast to commit to a price 90 days in advance. > > Local sales flyers are also a good place to cull pricing information, if > you can find them. There are a few on the web and I have a couple from > way-back-when. > > One of the cool things about an Atari 800 system a friend gave me when > he moved was that it came with Atari official price sheets, and, since > the donor was an Engineer, he saved every single receipt for every > item he ever bought - $2,500 for the base system (CPU, 32KB RAM, > printer, external serial ports, modem, two floppies, acoustic coupler, > tape drive, manuals, joysticks, etc.) and that was about 80% of MSRP! > It's only one data point, but it is *spot on*. Some real person paid > those real dollars for a machine that is completely documented. > > It's also interesting to look back at what the big iron used to cost. > Somewhere, I have a DEC third-party-reseller flyer listing the RA81 > at $14,000 (we paid $26,000 for one in 1984) - that's about $33/MB, > or about 1650000% more than a modern 100GB drive ($0.002/MB) > > While I don't have a massive pile of pricing data (that isn't in > the backs of magazines), I think it's an interesting category of > data to save. Sometimes the "good old days" don't look so good. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 26 20:51:16 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > I really can't see why you claim the Apple ][ was designed as a computer > and the TRS-80 (say) was not. . . . > I can't see much difference between those 2 upgrades... Maybe because the TRS-80 drive had its own power cord? From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Apr 26 10:40:40 2002 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: <200204262214.PAA06400@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3CC92EA8.3842.1B058C6@localhost> I have one but haven't had it out for several years. Ray Carlsen had a PC10 and posted some stuff about it on cscbm. I used a Commodore1402 monitor with it that I had acquired at a different time and IIRC later my Tandy CM-5 RGBI monitor. Jim Brain's list catalogues the 1402 as a Hercules ( In the monitor or on the motherboard of the PC20 ?). I'm wondering if you have a different model. Mine is labelled "PC10C / PC20C" . The PC10s and 20s were virtually identical I believe except for configuration. Mine has no cards and with 2 slots missing cover plates. It also has a sticker saying "ATI 2400 modem installed" but no modem. All the ports are labeled. It has a 9pin "Mouse" port, a f-db25 "parallel port", m-db25 "serial port", "comp video" RCA port, 9pin "RGBI", and 4sw. "config" block with 3 possible configurations. "Color40", Color80", and "Monochrome". Possibly yours is an earlier model. If you like I can send you my switch setting list later. However I am about to embarque on a trip west to Vancouver and won't be back for about 3 weeks. Still haven't found the pinouts for the Commie L-T 386. Guess I'll have to probe it. Lawrence > Well, I'm now the (proud?) owner of a Commodore PC-20-III. Ironically, this is a > Commodore I know little about although it is a more or less vanilla PC clone, > but there are some weird things about it. > > First, there's a composite video out on it. What kind of graphics did these have > in them? I haven't cracked the case yet, but there's also apparently a video > card in one of the slots (with six DIP switches? used for what?) and a two-port > card with two DB-15s on it that I can't immediately identify. > > Anyone out there own one of these and can tell me a little about it? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- If at first you don't succeed, don't go skydiving. ------------------------- lgwalker@mts.net bigwalk_ca@yahoo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Apr 26 21:11:48 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items References: Message-ID: <01b401c1ed90$e4146560$2c000240@default> Already have 2 of those also. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > Now for the wanted items - looking to complete my Mac collection that I > > started years ago trying to collect one of each model from 1984 to 1995 > > for a total of 103 machines. > > PB160 - working or not > > Mac 512Ke > > Quadra 800 > > WGS60 > > Performa 466, 467, 550, 275,, 560, 577,578, 658 > > Killer haul. > Sure you don't want a Performa 200? > > Doc > > From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 26 22:34:25 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <41575B2947B7D411A03C00508BCFF162708FD2@usa07.cs.lmco.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Haag, Troy wrote: > Does anyone know where I could pick up/buy one of these pieces of test > equipment? Troy, I have the Fluke 9010A with manuals and probes for 8080, Z-80, 8086 (2), and 80286. The unit is clean and passes its diagnostics, but as I have not actually used it, I cannot warrant its operation beyond that. Contact me off list if you are interested. - don From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Apr 26 23:19:23 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: So-Called Real Programmers and FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <000701c1ed57$719b8600$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com>; from dquebbeman@acm.org on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 03:20:35PM -0400 References: <000701c1ed57$719b8600$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20020426211923.A11408@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 03:20:35PM -0400, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > > > My Data Structures prof lamented the fact (by his observation) > > > that most people write Pascal in its FORTRAN subset... > > > > 10 C WHAT SUBSET IS THAT? > > (* The subset wherein everything is type in UPPER CASE > and no variable names were longer than six characters. *) Never mind a program written in the FORTRAN subset of Pascal -- there are programs that are FORTRAN and Pascal at the same time. (You can run them through either kind of compiler. Each compiler ignores the other language.) The record holder is COBOL, Pascal, FORTRAN, C, PostScript, sh, and MS-DOS 8086 executable. http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/poly/polyglot.htm -- Derek From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 26 23:22:58 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Well, I'm now the (proud?) owner of a Commodore PC-20-III. Ironically, this > > A little more information, now that I've found my folder of PC10/PC20 > schematics... > > The 'motherboard' is really I/O only (looks to be a serial port, a > parallel port, and an FDC). The CPU card plugs into a special slot on > this board -- it appears the CPU is an 8088 with (optional?) 8087 > coprocessor. > > There were at least 3 video cards : Monochrome (looks to be MDA), Color > (looks to be CGA) and 'Advanced Monochrome' (looks to be Hercules). I > can't be absolutely sure about that because all the cards have programmed > PALs or PLAs on them and I don't have any info on what's inside them. The > only one to have a composite output is the Color one. And none of them > have DIP switches that I can see. Tony, the Paradise Autoswitch EGA 350 Card has two RCA jacks and a DE-9 receptacle along with an 8-position DIP switch. The unit will auto select between EGA, CGA, and Hercules or MDA at the DE-9. The RCA jacks are not composite video and are to conform to the IBM EGA card configuration. - don > So I would guess the card you have with the DIP switches is a generic > clone card. As is the one with the 2 DA15s on it. > > -tony > From spc at conman.org Fri Apr 26 23:52:28 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Device driver support for various older OSes like OS-9 and AmigaOS In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 27, 2002 12:55:39 AM Message-ID: <200204270452.AAA20806@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > It sounds as though you [I think he's refering to Richard Erlacher here. -spc] > are moaning that the CoCo was not a CP/M machine. > Well, of course it wasn't. It used a 6809 processor. If you wanted a CP/M > machine, then fine, buy one. But OS-9 was a much nicer OS than CP/M (I've > used both seriously...) OS-9 felt more like unix (yes, I know it was very > different internally). And the I/O system was nothing short of beautiful > (I wish it was as easy to write device drivers for other OSes). AmigaOS may come close. Under AmigaOS, device drivers are, more or less, shared libraries that must support a few more standard calls (IO related calls) than normal shared libraries (that only need to support something like to or three routines that all shared libraries need to support) and handle IO messages. That's it. Very clean interface. And looking over my OS-9 documentation, it seems very similar (well, OS-9 doesn't support message queues like AmigaOS does, but otherwise, it looks like device drivers are just like any other module under OS-9, except for support for a set of standard calls). I'm not all that happy with the way Unix (and in particular Linux) handles devices, especially devices that are easily removable, like printers, modems, ttys, floppy disks and CD-ROMS, and the internal interface, and the fact that you have to compile drivers into the kernel [1] and ... well ... there's a lot I don't like about Unix. -spc (Still better than some of what's out there ... ) [1] I know, Linux supports demand loading of device drivers, but it still is very ugly, not clean, and *so* kernel dependent that a device driver module compiled under 2.0.13 may, quite possibly, load under 2.0.39, it probably won't under 2.1.x and forget about 2.2.0 or higher. And because so much of the kernel is exposed through the module interface (heck, the *entire* kernel is exposed) that there exist modules that will hide files, processes, network connections and even themselves so even enabling module support on a server is a security risk. MS-DOS, Windows and OS/2's ability to load device drivers at boot time is slightly better, but still annoying if you have a piece of hardware that only periodically needs support (say, a tape device driver for backups only). And there's a better documented interface for kernel->module interaction (at least in MS-DOS, I'm not sure about Windows or OS/2). I *still* like the Amiga and OS-9 method better, but yes, in a multiuser system would need a decent access control method (much better than what you get under Unix) to handle user loadable (or runtime loadable) device drivers. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sat Apr 27 00:15:58 2002 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c1edaa$9da760e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Hello my name is Colin from (UK) i also have just got an Amstrad > ppc640 just > for messing around on.... but it doesn't have any operating > system on it and > won't recognise any disks as when i boot it up it always says > invalid system > disk... i am using both 720k diskettes and have tried 1.44meg and tried > putting all dos versions and windows 95 onto it.... any advice > would be most > grateful.... Sounds very like a hardware fault: most likely the floppy drive - possibly the controller. Andy From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 27 00:34:41 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Sysgen Omni-Bridge Floppy Controller In-Reply-To: <02042600590807.04154@simon> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Tarsi wrote: > Anyone got docs or at least jumper settings for an 8-bit Sysgen Omni-Bridge > Floppy Controller? I just found one and it works (or at least it loads its > BIOS on boot) and so I'd like to get it going. > > I'm gonna try to run it in an AT&T 6300. > > Thanks! > > Tarsi > 210 The Omni-Bridge card that I have has the switch setting information silk-screened adjacent to the relevent switches. However, by way of confirmation: Switch 1 selects drive type. Positions 1 & 2 select for drive A, and positions 3 & 4 select for drive B. 360KB 1.2MB 720KB 1.44MB 5.25" 5.25" 3.5" 3.5" O O O X X O X X O=Off X=On Switch 2, positions 1 & 2, selects BIOS address. None CA00 CC00 CE00 O O O X X O X X O=Off X=On Position 3 selects I/O address. 3F0-3F7 370-377 O X O=Off X=On Position 4 selects whether 1.2MB drive is fixed or dual speed. Fixed Dual O X O=Off X=On The two 3-pin Berg headers near the top of the bracket control power through the external connector. The jumpers should normally occupy the left two pins of each header which is power off. There is a 360K floppy of files that go with the card. I will send you a ZIP file of its contents by private email. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:03:27 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <00b101c1edb4$f283baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's not exactly what I said, though it may have seemed that way. What I said was that the basic unit wasn't much more than a toy, since the EI and disk drives didn't come out until some time after the TRS-80 became avaiable. The Radio Shack experience was pretty much the first one of its kind, i.e. they put out what they thought met their "most likely to sell" criteria, though they were pretty wrong about the concept in several respects, all associated with packaging. They figure that out and fixed most of the problems in the Model 3. They didn't fix all the problems, of course, such as that inane display format and the slow cpu, but, they got the packaging somewhat better. more below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:55 PM Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > > That certainly applies to all those computers you claim are 'toys'. I > > > don't think you ever had to write code yourself to get the > > > computer-manufacturer's disk drive to boot/run the > > > computer-manufacturer's chosen OS. Certainly not with the Apple ][, > > > TRS-80 (any version), C64, Pet, etc. You just plugged it all together and > > > booted. > > > > > The Apple][ didn't really need a lot of plugging. It was designed to be a > > computer, though its predecessor, the Apple I had signal names on its > > I really can't see why you claim the Apple ][ was designed as a computer > and the TRS-80 (say) was not. > The obvious distinction is in that the Apple ][ was intended to be expanded with cards you could buy. Like the other "toy" vendors, which came along somewhat later, RS figured you should buy expansion hardware exclusively from them, so they didn't provide a generalized expansion interface, but, rather, just the memory and limited I/O expansion they thought appropriate. This follows the same model as the later "toy" makers, but the TRS-80, based on their advertising and other features, didn't intend the majority of their users to be gamesters, exclusively. Most notably, this is illustrated by their inclusion of the ROM basic. > > FWIW, to add a disk drive to the Apple ][, you : > > Plugged the disk drive cable into the disk interface card. > > Pulled the top off the apple, plugged the disk interface card into an > expansion slot, put the top back on. > > Put the DOS disk in the drive and turned on the Apple. > > To add a disk drive to the CoCo, you : > > Plugged the disk drive cable into the disk interface cartridge > > Plugged the cartridge into the side of the CoCo. > > Turned on the machine (the OS -- really extensions to BASIC to allow you > to load/save programs and data, format disks, etc -- was in a ROM in the > cartridge so you didn't need a boot disk). > > If you wanted to run OS-9 you stuck the disk into the drive and typed > 'DOS' (IIRC). > > I can't see much difference between those 2 upgrades... > one difference between the two "models" that were followed was that the Coco became avaiable quite some time before any expansion hardware was available. This follows the same model as the Commodore machines and a few others, whose vendors seemingly figured they'd sell the main box to raise money to fund the development of the expansion hardware if there was going to be any. In many cases, this was a great favor to the purchasers, since they immediately could begin to see what they'd bought. If it was useful to them, they stuck with it, if not, well, instead of having a couple of k-bucks invested, they only had a few hundred and could move on to something that they liked better. > > > schematic that clearly indicated it was intended as a video device more than > > as a general purpose computer. That was probably reasonable since everything > > had to be slaved to the video refresh timing. The TRS-80 was in the stores > > nearly a year before the expansion interface, disk drives, and OS were > > Was the Disk II avaiable as soon as the Apple ][ was released? (I don't > know the answer, Sellam?) > I don't think so, but it wasn't long after the ][ came out. Most of the ]['s I saw were actually ][+'s. > > > available. I don't know what the story on the PET was, as there were no > > outlets for them here in the Denver area that kept 'em in stock. They > > IIRC, the very first version of PET BASIC had a bug in it which meant the > only mass storage you could use was the cassette recorder. > > > > > When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work would it do with > > the > > > > > > Depends on what you consider useful work :-) > > > > > > > $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could you write and > > > > > > Write a letter? There was a word processor ROM (Color Scripsit Program > > > Pak) that you could plug in. I have it somewhere. I think it came out not > > > long after the CoCo itself > > > > > The latter was my point, though in any case, it wasn't included in the $399 > > bundle. The hardware preceeded any useful application, though it was produced > > Apart from pre-packaged business systems, very few micros came with word > processing software. It was always an optional extra. > Yes, but if, by way of comparison, you bought an Ampro "Little Board" which only preceeded the CoCo by a few months (?), you had your choice of several, aside from the line-editor that came with the OS, which was included with the Little Board. I don't remember what inexpensive 2-sided 5-1/4" drives cost in '83, but I do remember that the Ampro could use the already-available distribution disk format of the Kaypro and Osborne machines, though it wasn't native to Ampro. > > > long after there were microcomputers with plenty of useful software available. > > While I've never maintained that the "$399" CoCo was incapable of anything if > > enough equipment was added, it's clear that you can't compare the CoCo as > > purchased in, say '82, if it was even available that early, with a low-cost > > system, e.g. the Ampro Little Board, costing, I think <$200 (as a kit, of > > course) including the OS on floppy disks. It required a serial terminal, of > > course, but provided the ability to run anything CP/M. As usual with > > 5-1/4"-diskette-based systems, there was a media issue, but that could be work > > ed out by means of Modem7. > > So, you needed to buy the Little Board, a serial terminal, at least one > disk drive (I can't believe $200 included the drive), and probably a PSU > and a case. And then get it all working. Fine if you knew what you were > doing. Not so good if you were starting out. > > And presumably using Modem7 to transfer programs from 8" disks (the > _only_ standard CP/M format) to the Little Board implied you had another > CP/M computer with 8" drives. You know, this is starting to sound expensive. > Well, if you bought a new terminal, it meant an outlay by 1983 of somewhere on the order of $550. If you got one second-hand, $100 might do it. If you wanted to use a modified TV-set, Digital Research of Texas (Ferguson) (the guys who sold the BigBoard) sold a ~6"x8" board that allowed you to do that, and you had to provide a parallel-interfaced keyboard. Those were pretty cheap too, certainly more so than today. Frankly, I suspect the BigBoard was a better buy if you intended to use a TV and a keyboard, since the display circuit was already on the board. What's more, it worked with 8" drives, which were, after all, the CP/M standard, so there's another option. > > > > > > > > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any meaningful > > way? > > > > > > I know of no home computer that had Fortran in ROM. The CoCo (of course) > > > had a BASIC interpretter in ROM, so you could type in and run programs > > > (it came with a fairly good BASIC tutorial manual). > > > > > ROM wasn't the issue. The fact that the CoCo would run only software on ROM > > You clearly don't know much about the CoCo. > > The CoCo could run software from RAM (of course). In fact it was one of > the few micros at that time which had both BASIC in ROM and the ability > to 'turn off' the ROM and have a memory map that was almost entirely RAM > (the only exception being the I/O devices). Most machines had either > BASIC In ROM that was always there (and which got in the way if you > wanted to run a real OS), or just had a little boot ROM (which was often > 'turned off' after the OS had been booted), but which therefore needed a > disk drive to work at all. > > There was a fair amount of CoCo software sold on ROM Paks because they > were quicker to load than cassette tapes (they were also harder to > pirate...). But you certainly could run software loaded from tape (I have > a few CoCo games that were sold on cassette). > My recollection of the CoCo, quite limited for sure, since it wasn't very widely popular around here, but one of my colleagues had one, suggests that the appearance of runnable code for the CoCo was not contemporaneous with its introduction. My recollection is that there wasn't much available in terms of expansion hardware or ROM software until the CoCo was no longer particularly important on the market, not that it ever was. However, the PC came down in price to where one could have a complete PC/XT clone for well under $1k by 1985, which badly hurt the makers of machines like the CoCo, etc. > > > puts it in a different category than that of a general purpose computer, which > > it only became after the addition of additonal hardware. That, BTW, was my > > point. > > > > In 1983, which was the last year in which I purchased any CP/M software, I > > had no fewer than 6 different 'C' compilers, 4 Pascal compilers, 2 Fortran > > compilers, PL/1, 3-4 BASIC interpreters and compilers, several assemblers, and > > a number of cross-assemblers, not to mention many other tools of various > > sorts. None of these were on ROM. All were from different vendors and not > > So? The CoCo had plenty of software available if you added a disk drive > an OS-9. Presumably all the software you mentioned also needed at least > one disk drive. > Yes, but when? > > It sounds as though you are moaning that the CoCo was not a CP/M machine. > Well, of course it wasn't. It used a 6809 processor. If you wanted a CP/M > machine, then fine, buy one. But OS-9 was a much nicer OS than CP/M (I've > used both seriously...) OS-9 felt more like unix (yes, I know it was very > different internally). And the I/O system was nothing short of beautiful > (I wish it was as easy to write device drivers for other OSes). If you > added a piece of homebrew hardware to the CoCo (let's say a parallel > printer interface), then you could write a device driver in a few lines > of assembly code, assemble it, load the resulting 'module' at the command > prompt and have the device available to all programs on the system. Now > of course you don't like unix (and prefer MS-DOS) which might explain why > you also prefer CP/M to OS-9 > > > Unfortunately, by the time you could buy a complete, OS-9-ready CoCo system, > > I'd bet you could by an MS-DOS capable system for about the same money and, > > > You probably could. But I actually chose a CoCo 3 system over a PC-clone > for a birthday present one year. And I have _never_ regretted it. > > > > The serial port was intended to be used as a printer port. For some > > > reason it ran at 600 baud by default, but.... I suppose you believe that > > > all printers have a parallel interface? I do not! > > > > > The serial printers of the time seemed to work fine at low baud rates since > > they were most often the daisywheel types. Those cost WAY more than a person > > wishing to save money on a $399 CoCo would have wanted to pay. > > There were plenty of cheap-ish serial dot matrix printers around at the > time, too. > > > > > CPU chip and start from scratch rather than having to work around all that > > > > stupid, Stupid, STUPID hardware they used? ... hardware you had to work > > > > > > Actually, the CoCo hardware was pretty nice, apart from the display (you > > > seem to regard this as being the most important part of a computer, I do > > > not). The hardware did _not_ generally get in the way of homebrew add-ons > > > (I speak from a lot of experience here, I've built all sorts of add-ons > > > for the CoCo). > > > > > It IS the most important part of the computer, since it's what you saw. The > > Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. Many of my computers don't even > have any form of video output. The think I look for when choosing a > computer is the _processor_ and _OS_. > I've long (very long) considered a display of fewer than 24 lines of 80 characters pretty useless. True, 80 column lines in pages of 24 date back to the U.S. military "coding forms" developed in the U.S. Navy and later proliferated throughout the industry. It seemed to me to be one of a very few things the military got right. > > > user interface seems, still, to be the primary issue in deciding on one system > > over another for home use. It's like the speakers in your sound system. I > > normally tell people to spend at least half their home stereo budget on > > speakers, half the remainder on their receiver/amplifier, and the remainder on > > signal sources. > > Seems reasonable. But that's because the purpose of a Hi-Fi system is to > produce sound with minimal distortion, and most of the distortion comes > from the speakers. The purpose of a computer is not just to output video. > It's to do processing as well. > True, but it's got to tell what the outcome of your processing task was. > > > > > > There was one big advantage to starting from a home computer rather than > > > just a CPU chip. You had a 'base system' that included enough software to > > > PEEK/POKE bytes to your homebrew add-on for testing. That alone made life > > > a lot easier when you were starting out. > > > > > If you were smart enough to build anything at all. you were smart enough to > > get a monitor program for some other system and build your hardware so it > > could execute that monitor. You had to start with something. True, a > > Well, if you're just starting out you have to get a lot right just to run > that monitor. All the bus connections correctly wired and no shorts. CPU > clock running. Memory map as you (and the monitor ROM) expect it. ROM > correctly programmed. I/O devices where the monitor expects them. And so on. > > None of this is impossible, or even that difficult. But for a first time > project there's a lot that can go wrong, and you might well then not know > how to look for the problem. If you started with a CoCo (or whatever) you > had a base machine that would work. If your device stopped the machine > from even starting up it was a fair bet you'd got a short between 2 bus > lines. If it didn't repsond to the right addresses, you'd mis-designed > the address decoder. And so on. It was a lot easier to get your first > hardware project working that way. > removing the CPU and using switches to set the addresses was an easy enough way to check whether a CPU communicated properly with an I/O decoder and the downstream hardware. It wasn't instantaneous, but it didn't take long to set 8 addresses. I could have taken the thing to work and used the 'scopes and other lab equipment, but I got it working without them. Later on, I was occasionally seen to bring my computer to work so I could use it there as a tool to stimulate or monitor other hardware. I guess I consider it pretty simple because that's how I got my first computer working. I took a memory map from an existing architecture and, because I was too impatient to wait for boards to become avaiable, I built my own from wirewrap materials. It took a weekend and, when I was done, it worked. I'd built a small box, about 6" tall with a small SONY TV-set in it and a PSU in it, and mounted a 12-slot passive backplane in the thing, and away we went. I'd picked an architecture for which software and hardware already existed, so I could replicate what I needed and steal the driver and application software. That was before disk drives were cheap, so it used an audio cassette for storing and retrieving data. It didn't take me long to tire of that. > > > resident ROM was handy, provided you could make it go away. > > You could. Look at the SAM data sheet. > I was hoping to avoid that ... > > > > Well, I guess the Multi-Pak was designed to have 4 cartridges plugged in > > > at once so you didn't have to keep on unpluging them when you wanted to > > > change programs. But I can assure you that most of them were used as > > > expansion backplanes so as to have the disk controller, serial port and a > > > couple of other hardware add-ons plugged in at the same time. > > > > > That's something I wasn't aware of, though I still maintain that RS really > > didn't intend for it to be used for 3rd party hardware. They certainly didn't > > At least in the UK you could buy 'off the rack' in the local Tandy shops > (Radio Shack Stores :-)) prototyping boards to fit the CoCo cartridge > port (basically a PCB with a gold plated edge connector at one end, > power/ground distribution and pads to fit standard DIL packages) along > with plastic boxes to take that board and fit nicely into the CoCo or > MultiPak. So it appears they _did_ expect you to do some homebrewing. > Homebrewing fit their business model at the time, but, aside from the fact the IBM PC was taking over the world of microcomputing, there still wasn't much interest in 8-bitters that took up a whole table top. The last major trend in CP/M computers, for example, was typified in the move from box+terminal+drive_box+hard_drive_ box to luggables such as the Kaypro, Osborne, and Otrona. In '84 I had a pretty big system at the house, but hauled a modesltly proportioned barebones system based on the Ampro with me wherever I went, and it had a hard disk and a floppy, along with an integrated display (using the small Ferguson Engineering terminal board) all crammed into a box about as large as an Otrona. It didn't have a handle or an attachment for the keyboard, both of which would have been convenient. I doubt much of their competitors' hardware was available in the Radio Shack. One of my client companies sold an OS for the TRS-80, called NewDOS-80. I doubt it pleased the RS guys to have people ask for it in their stores. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:29:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <00b201c1edb4$f2f938c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Lots of perfectly useable computers started out as little more than toys. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > [Altair] > > > > > > > > > > > It was designed as a TOY. It first appeared in an article in a niche > > magazine > > > > > > You clearly believe that 'toy' and 'computer' are mutually exclusive. I > > > do not. > > > > > That was very much a valid distinction in 1980, but because microelectronics > > applied to the toy market are as valid and "real" an application asn any > > other, it's no longer the case. > > I thought we were talking about the Altair, which predates 1980. > Yes we were, and yes it does, but the timeline on which I was focusing was 1980, because there were several milestones associated with that. One of them was, IIRC, the release of the "last" version of Apple Dos, and the other was the emergence of the half-height 5-1.4" diskette drive. Another was the drop in price of 8" DSDD drives to under $500 through distribution. I have pretty good recollection of some of what was going on in '80 because I spent the first half of that year mostly sitting at home fooling with computer hardware and straining to grow back a leg I'd lost in a traffic accident the previous year. I bought a couple of rather large, heavy, populated dual disk drive boxes that year, and quickly learned that it wasn't easy moving things from a loading dock to the trunk of the car when you had to hop on one foot to do it. There were numerous things that made distinct impressions ... > > > > > > > specializing TOYS. Since no software, means for getting it in, means for > > > > > > IIRC there was a front panel. Surely I am not the only person here to > > > have entered software using toggle switches.... > > > I've done that too, and have even built front-panels as diagnostic tools, but I don't find it amusing even to enter a 30-40 byte program via the swtiches, and certainly wouldn't enjoy toggling in the bootloader that way every morning. I'd draw the line at 200 bytes or so. I guess that's why 1702's turned out to be so useful. > > > ... and you feel it's warranted to spend vast amounts of money, which the > > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data in or out except > > I was under the impression that, although the Altair was limited, you > couldn't get anything better _at the time_ for the same money. There's no > point in saying that there were better computers available (definitely > true) if all you could afford were the bits to make an Altair. > IIRC, there were machines from both Intel and DEC that you could buy. They were more capable, hence, more expensive. There were also a couple of small computer devices based on pre-8080 cpu's that were "out there" though not as widely popular as the Altair. Now, that was in '75-'76. Microcomputers were not the "thing" yet. In early 1980, I remember that almost no engineering office I visited, and not just electronics engineering offices, was without some sort of microcomputer, and many of them were from MITS or IMSAI. The key was that those would allow the user to run CP/M and that would allow them to run FORTRAN, in which a vast amount of public-domain engineering software had been written. > > And yes I do feel it would have been worth spending that amount of money > on an Altair if you wanted to learn about computers. > > > > It's purpose (IMHO) was clearly as an educational tool. > > > > > Yes, as was the "Speak-n-Spell" which was sold in toy stores everywhere. > > That's a totally different thing. The Speak-n-Spell was an educational > tool/toy, but it was not designed to teach you about computers. It > happened to use a microcontroller, but it was not user-programmable. The > Altair was intended, in part, as a tool to teach you about computers and > programming, and as such it was a real computer, designed to be > user-programmed... > Well, that's certainly true ... it was intended to teach you about spelling. They're not comparable, but they're both educational toys. It's like a gun. If you buy a pellet gun as one might for plinking cans or even shooting rats, it can do some serious damage. However, if your intent is to do some serious damage, there are far better choices you could make. That was the situation at the time. The thing that made the Altair a breakthrough was its price. You could, given a wirewrap card, etc, build a pretty extensive computer around that hardware and end up with a fully functional computer for under $10K, which was unheard-of in that time frame. > Nevertheless, Ed Roberts has gone on record as saying he didn't intend the thing to grow into a computer, which suggests that he didn't originally view it as one. It was an educational computer toy, right up to the point at which it became endowed with I/O that would allow it to input and output data at a rate sufficient to accomplish useful work. Before that point, it wasn't even as useful as a bicycle, since it lacked wheels. Being a toy is not a problem until you want to make it into something the mfg didn't intend. It's still not an insurmountable burden at that point, but it isn't as easy as simply buying what you need. Just as everyone isn't interested in building their own microcomputer from just the parts and some wire, etc, not everyone is interested in doing much more than buying the component devices, lashing the system up, and running the commercially available software. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Apr 27 01:41:55 2002 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Haven, CT] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020426234128.021dc990@mail.zipcon.net> Did you set the CD drive to SCSI ID 6? From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:37:47 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467889@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <00e201c1edb6$0b80b660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 12:08 PM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > > > > > > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data > > > Dick, I think you're the only one on the list who _wouldn't_ spend > > > vast amounts of time and money for a computer like that ;) > > > > Isn't that one of the ones for which he saves the power cord and dumpsters > > the machine EVERY time he finds one? > > > Did someone say power cords??? I got a box of about 4 dozen if you need any. > If I want the cord, I just snag it when I have the chance. Often I've gotten the whole computer with the cord for less than they'd have charged me for the cord alone. Dick > -- > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 > Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 27 01:41:52 2002 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: URGENT: 1979 vintage Linoterm system needs home! Message-ID: <200204262341520574.2E3DFF1E@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, Even though my interests have swung pretty much back to ham radio, etc., I still get the occasional E-mail advising me of a classic computing system that needs a new home. This one's a doozy -- an honest-to-God Mergenthaler 'Linoterm' system. The owner is located in the Puget Sound region, Washington state. Please contact him directly using the info in the following note. Note that this one is time-critical. If you can help this fellow, please contact him ASAP. Thanks much. Message copy follows. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hi Bruce - I have a Mergenthaler Linoterm Model 50M computer phototypesetter, and it needs a home. It was bought new by the previous owner (a Seattle ad-agency owner) in 1979 for roughly $52,000. This machine is the transition between the hot-lead Linotype mechanical typesetters and the Linotronic, the first of today's computerized typesetting gear. The Linoterm set what might be the all-time high-water mark for typographic quality. There's a combined CRT/keyboard terminal that runs everything (looks like a Wang VS terminal). The main processor is a big cardcage that holds a bunch of doormat-sized circuit cards (looks to be TTL) with 16K of RAM, and (2) 8" floppy drives. The typesetting unit is optical, controlled by a Z80 chip. OS is supposed to be proprietary, but it seems to respond to typical CP/M commands, so it's probably CP/M with some custom extensions. Then there's quite a bit of support equipment and accessories, a good batch of 8" floppies (old files, training stuff, and the OS), and a complete set of manuals. I had it cabled up and running about five years ago, so it's all there and it all works. We just moved a few weeks ago from Mill Creek (just south of Everett) to Burlington, which is why I need to find a new home for the Linoterm. It's in the garage at our old place in Mill Creek, so when that place sells, it needs to be gone. I also have quite a few other vintage bits and pieces that might belong in somebody's restoration, but those were small and easily moved. The Linoterm is good-sized, about a pickup load, and weighs a couple hundred pounds. Thanks for any help you can give me on this: I'd hate to have to just scrap it. - Rick Harrison - rgh@fidalgo.net - richardgharrison@yahoo.com - (360) 707-5989 (land line and answering machine) - (425) 330-2084 (cell phone) PS: I don't have the scanner hooked up at the new place yet, but if some scans out of the manual will find it a home, I'll get it hooked up, just let me know. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:42:46 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:14 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <200204261517.IAA14272@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00f601c1edb6$bdf586e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's the way in which the packaging effects the convenience of a given use. The "toy" makes it easy to use as a game machine, in most cases, while the "computer" makes it more convenient to compute. Never mind the fact that, viewed from the inside, there's not a nickel's worth of difference. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > You clearly believe that 'toy' and 'computer' are mutually exclusive. I > > > do not. > > > That was very much a valid distinction in 1980, but because microelectronics > > applied to the toy market are as valid and "real" an application asn any > > other, it's no longer the case. > > So why do *you* bother drawing a distinction between the two if toys are a > valid use? A computer is a computer, no matter what it's used for, right? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- I use my C-128 because I am an ornery, stubborn, retro grouch. -- Bob Masse > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:43:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <00fe01c1edb6$e547c000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I might do that today, but I wouldn't have back then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:56 AM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > ... and you feel it's warranted to spend vast amounts of > > money, which the > > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data > > in or out except > > for single-bit LED's and a few switches when there's no other > > means for > > inserting/extracting information? Even Ed Roberts indicated > > Dick, I think you're the only one on the list who _wouldn't_ spend > vast amounts of time and money for a computer like that ;) > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:46:11 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <010a01c1edb7$38123540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No ... It's Apple's that I scrap for the PSU's, since they're of a uniform size and that happens to be a handy size for me. I do keep the cords, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > > Altair cost, on a machine with no means for putting code/data > > Dick, I think you're the only one on the list who _wouldn't_ spend > > vast amounts of time and money for a computer like that ;) > > Isn't that one of the ones for which he saves the power cord and dumpsters > the machine EVERY time he finds one? > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:51:42 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844B4@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <011a01c1edb7$fd308ca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The most obvious one is, "I've seen it demonstrated that it can do what I want." That doesn't say something else won't do that, but just that he's not seen it. That's a compelling influence. Now, if you, like most folks, had never seen a workstation, or, for that matter, any other sort of computer, and someone showed you one that did what you needed done, and you were tasked to buy a computer that day, what would you do? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:53 AM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: r. 'bear' stricklin [mailto:red@bears.org] > > > I have worse news: today, it's called a Macintosh. Before you > > argue with > > me, consider that nobody in their right mind would want to > > buy a computer > > with less than 10% market penetration, without a pretty > > compelling reason. > > Having considered that, I've decided that the fact that it's a > very nice system, and you prefer it to a Macintosh is a compelling > reason to buy a system with less than 10% market penetration. Of > course, there's also the "which market" argument, which I don't > think I have to get into... > > > I find that most Mac users I talk to have compelling reasons > > for owning > > Macs. People that want a PC will buy a PC. People that want a > > They like them; indeed, that's a compelling reason. No matter how > good the system is, you can't do a thing with it if you're not > comfortable with it. (well, ok, you can, but it's much harder) > > > Mac will buy > > a Mac. People that want a computer will buy a PC (though IMO > > they would be > > better served with Macs, but that's solely my own opinion and > > They certainly would, though that's not really high praise for > Macintosh. They'd be better off with an Atari 400. :) > > People buy peesees for one of four reasons: > > They favor them -- usually because they've never seen anything else. > > Their friend-who-knows-everything-about-computers likes them (yeah...) > > Everybody else is doing it > > They don't know that anything else exists > > I can't think of another reason to buy a peesee. Personally, I'm > much happier with my used workstation than I would be if I'd bought > a peesee at the same time, for about twice the money. > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Apr 27 01:42:15 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: New 'Toy' Message-ID: Yesterday I was lucky enough to pick up an IBM 5150 at Purdue Salvage for $0 (just before it hit the trash). After a bit of playing with it, and trying a SVGA card with it (it had no video card in it when I got it, I'm suprised the 16bit card works OK in an 8bit slot), I've gotten it to boot into MS-DOS 5 (ick) and CP/M-86. I now seem to have a problem with its second floppy drive... When I try reading from any disk, I get a "Data error" in CP/M and DOS. I think that the problem is the head not moving... I can 'format' a disk in CP/M in the drive, but I don't hear the disk head seeking. These are IBM branded DSDD (full height 5-1/4") floppy drives. Does anyone have any info I can use to try and debug (and hopefully fix) this problem? -- Pat From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 01:54:50 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <012201c1edb8$6d9dad60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The box+backplane+PSU was commonly referred to as the mainframe back in the days when it mattered. I didn't invent the term. No, there was no pretense of being equivalent, say, to a '370. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Finnegan" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > Open the box. Open the S-100 mainframe. Open the individual > > > > Wow, an S-100 mainframe. I want one of those. :) > > > > Chris > > I don't think that *anything* that had a S-100 bus as it's primary bus > could be called a mainframe (or mini for that matter)... don't minis (and > i'm gonna extrapolate mainframes from that) usually have an asynchronous > bus like QBus/Unibus/Omnibus/etc? Anyhow, what kind of bus do S/360s and > S/370s (and old, on topic S/390s) use? (Yes, proprietary I know. how it > works I don't know.) > > -- Pat > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:07:54 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844C4@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <013801c1edba$40d9cc80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:04 AM Subject: RE: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > That pretty much describes commodore disk drives, yep. The > > > An external IDE drive would be hazardous thing to use because > > of cable length. > > Didn't think of that -- you're probably right. > > > > handled all of the complexities of disk I/O, so that the CPU didn't > > > need to -- so there are good points to them. > > > What you may have had, then, is a toy with a computer as a > > peripheral. That > > was probably quite a bit after the time reference of 1980. > > Actually, I don't remember what CPU was in the 1541 drives, but I > seem to recall that it was actually more powerful than the computer. > > I also remember somebody working on a way to get code into the drive > to be executed, but that's kind of fuzzy. > > > What I am focused on is where the intelligence to run the I/O > > resides. Once > > So does the computer have to come with it, or simply allow space for > it on the inside of the case? > Well, this is not much more than a preference of mine, apparently, but I prefer my microcomputers to be small, i.e. not much bigger than a couple or three loaves of sandwich bread next to each other on the table. I prefer to have the interface to the I/O and memory, and whatever other hardware is intended to be used with the computer to live within the main box (formerly called mainframe, not meaning a computer requiring several acres of floorspace) and that the interfaces be either permanent or removable, but resident in that box. The peripherals can live outside. It's a convenient way for microcomputers to work. However, the industry's getting away from that. In a year or two, I expect PC's intended for typical home use will come in what Sun and others often nicknamed a "pizza box" enclosure that has external attachments for a monitor, keyboard, mouse, USB, network, SCSI or fiberchannel, a printer, a phone line, a couple of serial ports, and nothing else. The interfaces will, of course, still reside in the box, but you won't have the liberty of picking and choosing your own as you do now. A technology upgrade will often mean replacing the whole shootin' match, but with enough volume that won't be so painful. Since every such computer will be EXACTLY alike, Billy won't have a problem writing software to work pretty much the same with all of 'em. > > > peripherals made great deal of sense. However, it resulted > > in ugly and > > awkward packaging, which was addressed even later with more > > elegant interface > > standards, say, by 1986, with the standardization of SCSI. > > Well, I certainly won't argue with that. > > > > Would you also have considered 9-track tape "mass storage" for the > > > time? > > > I'd tread lightly around that subject, unless your Atari or > > whatever, had a > > 9-track drive in '80 or so. > > Obviously not, I'm just curious as to whether it would need to > be some form of "fast" disk-like storage, or if a high-capacity > tape would be ok. > I wouldn't presume to make that choice for you. I'd point out, however, that if you use tape, you'd get better performance with several drives, just as with floppy disk, one drive can be a mite tedious. > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:12:35 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <200204250320.g3P3Kbf63115@ns2.ezwind.net> <000f01c1ec0f$3c5a4ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20020425160522.GJ277480@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <015201c1edba$e881b880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Often there's good reason why folks hacked their video toys to use them for computing. Toy manufacturers weren't blind to this. The packaging is a problem under some circumstances, since making an elegant game station is a different task than making an elegant computing station. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Wright" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:05 AM Subject: Re: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > Richard Erlacher said: > > > > The grandkids have Playstations. Adults might want 'em too, since some of the > > games are pretty slick. I don't relate to that, myself, but I know lots of > > folks enjoy a game as a form of diversion. I don't think anybody would > > mistake one for a computer though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that > > somebody somewhere had figured out how to make it run Linux. I just can't > > imagine why one would want to. > > Well, for starters, the thing has a pretty impressive MIPS core, and there's a > faculty member here who's porting computational chemistry apps to the PS2 > running linux... > > http://spawn.scs.uiuc.edu/research/sonyps2/ps2project.htm > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:16:56 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <20020425164935.53170.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015e01c1edbb$840b87e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are fast ethernet interfaces that attach to a USB2 port. I don't know what they cost, but that may actually end up reducing the number of interfaces we see on PC's of the future. USB2 is purported to have quite a lot of bandwidth. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:49 AM Subject: Re: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Sure, but my point was, for instance, the C64 had drives that used > > > > what basically amounts to a straight serial (or is that parallel?) > > Serialized IEEE-488, essentially - Tramiel demanded that Commodore not > be stuck not being able to buy enough connectors for the next generation > of product. There was some sort of supply problem with them in the > PET days. > > > And there's IDE64, which is also parallel through the expansion port. > > Yes. I have one. Got a 20MB HP Kittyhawk 1.8" IDE drive on it (talk > about *tiny*) I did think of that, but I declined to mention it because > it _is_ an external drive controller of the sort that Dick was railing > against in the first place. > I'm not against the concept. I certainly was opposed to the way in which that sort of thing was done, back in the '80's, however, and what it cost. > > I have no problem calling the C-64 a "toy" (it's been called much worse > over the years, especially by Atari and Apple zealots ;-) Nevertheless, > it was one of my favorite machines; it got me my first job 20 years ago, > and I spent countless hours programming it, building doodads for it, > etc. It took the Amiga to get me to shelve my C-64, and even then, > for the first year, I used the C-64 more because I could get more done > with it (Kickstart 1.1 sucked! I switched to the Amiga when KS1.2 came > out and the market began to open up and disgorge useful goodies for it). > > It took a combination of the Web and cheap SPARC hardware to get me to > give up the Amiga. I haven't powered on my A4000 in months. :-( I > suppose the moribund nature of the Amiga market was a contributing > factor, too, but AMosaic on a tiny screen just doesn't cut it. At least > I had ethernet, or I'd have dumped the Amiga long, long ago. > > These days, my personal criteria is "no ethernet == toy" (for stuff made > after 1990) The iOpener or Audrey as shipped is a toy; add USB Ethernet > and it graduates to "potentially useful tool". > > -ethan > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:21:09 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <016a01c1edbc$1ade5ee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I did that sort of thing in a development system I worked up for my own use back in the early '80's. The various processors in the system told the resident Z80 which was, all the while, running CP/M what to do in the form of command line entry, and it would load memory, which had been configured by the requesting CPU, and the CPU then grabbed it. That was MUCH easier than writing a file system for each of the CPU's. The stuff all lived in the same box, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:59 PM Subject: Re: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Gee ... I've never seen one of those ... and I've picked up countless Apple > > "drives" over the years, hoping to find something useable inside. The best > > I've ever gotten has been a box + PSU. If I'd ever run into an Ampro product, > > I'd have remembered. > > And you WON'T find 'em in regular drives. > This would be specifically the drives that were intended to add MFM > capabilities to non-MFM systems, and therefore needed to have at least an > FDC, and even a microprocessor. The easiest shortcut to do that was to > use a single board computer. I've seen Ampro, Quark, and 2 others. I > also did some trivial disk format consulting for one outfit that was doing > one with an Ampro, although at this point, I can't even remember the name. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:26:19 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <004d01c1ed39$89c6a3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CC98661.C01469F8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01a201c1edbc$d35852a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't think I ever actually saw a diskless Apple][. They must have existed, because, as you've pointed out, they have that cassette port. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 10:54 AM Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The Apple][ didn't really need a lot of plugging. It was designed to be a > > computer, though its predecessor, the Apple I had signal names on its > > schematic that clearly indicated it was intended as a video device more than > > as a general purpose computer. That was probably reasonable since everything > > had to be slaved to the video refresh timing. The TRS-80 was in the stores > > nearly a year before the expansion interface, disk drives, and OS were > > available. I don't know what the story on the PET was, as there were no > > outlets for them here in the Denver area that kept 'em in stock. They > > certainly didn't have an OS or anything of the sort until well after their > > market window in the U.S. had closed. AFAIK, their successes were mainly in > > the European market. I remember seeing their ads in mags brought back from > > Europe, but in the entire time I was looking ad commercial systems, the only > > PET I ever saw, in private hands or in the hands of a merchant, was the > > original 4K PET with the toy (Chiclet?) keyboard. The C64 doesn't fit in the > > same generation with these early machines. > > Well Cassette I/O and TV video out and a cheap keyboard with BASIC > is what I call a 'Toy/Games' computer. Any computer with less than 48k > of > memory I consider a control computer from that era of computing. > Note the price of game consoles have stayed about the same $299-$399 > and real computers $899-$1299. (Canadian) > > > > > The serial printers of the time seemed to work fine at low baud rates since > > they were most often the daisywheel types. Those cost WAY more than a person > > wishing to save money on a $399 CoCo would have wanted to pay. > The only printers for the coco really was the RS ones and really crappy > at that too! > > > It IS the most important part of the computer, since it's what you saw. The > > user interface seems, still, to be the primary issue in deciding on one system > > over another for home use. It's like the speakers in your sound system. I > > normally tell people to spend at least half their home stereo budget on > > speakers, half the remainder on their receiver/amplifier, and the remainder on > > signal sources. > > What no $$$ for the tubes ??? > Good way to buy a sound system. > > > True, not to mention that, back then, (1980) they were the only computer maker > > with a world-wide retail/service/distribution network. > Often the only store that sold computerrs in a small town! > > > That's something I wasn't aware of, though I still maintain that RS really > > didn't intend for it to be used for 3rd party hardware. They certainly didn't > > provide paths, in general, by means of which one could expand a system beyond > > their own designs, which other mfg.'s often (possibly unintentionally) did. > That is true of 99% of all the computer systems. With the PC it really > only took > off once the clones came in. In hindsight nobody other than OS/9 systems > really > produced a good computer system in the 1980's. > > -- > Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:28:38 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <000701c1ed45$c96350a0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01ac01c1edbd$26351760$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Chippewa??? I don't remember that one. I remember SCOPE and, later, KRONOS. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:14 AM Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > > Christopher Smith wrote: > > > you write and > > > > compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any > > > > > > I'm not sure whether there were any compilers available that > > > didn't require disk drives. It would have been possible (not > > > fun) given the proper programs. > > > > Fortran II could compile from paper tape on the IBM 1620. > > The PDP-8 had I think a paper tape version of fortran too, > > but not sure what version, II or IV. > > I think this might be an articial distinction... > > All the operating systems for the CDC 6600 and its kin > required some kind of disk or drum drive, where parts > of the operating system would reside. > > However, the compiler itself could just as easily have > been loaded and run from tape in the Chippewa OS. > > The FORTRAN programs it processed could be on magtape > or on cards; Chippewa doesn't seem to have any papertape > support. There does not appear to be any support for the > user or even the operator to have disk-resident files, > as there was no filesystem to speak of in Chippewa. > > -dq > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:30:43 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <01b401c1edbd$7085bfe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:24 AM Subject: RE: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work > > would it do with the > > $399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could > > you write and > > compile a Fortran program? > > A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in ANY language. > There was a fairly good (even though Microsoft) BASIC interpreter in ROM. > A REAL programmer could write a FORTRAN program with it. > > > Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? > Of course! Although it took me 15 minutes to make a cable, my DTC-300 > (HiType I daisy wheel terminal) printed immediately. > What, they supporte ETX/ACK? > > > What software > > was there, that you could install and use? > > A "TOY" computer comes with software. With a REAL computer, you have to > program. > A real computer has tools. A toy has games. A computer with no software is an experiment. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 02:38:58 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr25.073929edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <018f01c1ecb2$129e90c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <01d501c1edbe$980c5a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:02 PM Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > >This thread has become shanghaied down a path different that the one I > >intended to take. > > Likely due to too broad of a blanket statement concerning > what constitutes a computer. A few machines that I do feel fall more > into the realm of 'toys' vice true computers, mainly due to their > total lack of built-in I/O interfaces are extremely lowcost systems > such as the ZX-81 and the Aquarius. Both have bus extensions but the > only built-in I/O they have is their video out and cassette > interfaces. The ZX-81 takes another step back by not even offering > program loading by way of ROM cartridges, which the Aquarius does but > by the time the Aquarius was released it was well behind everything > else out there. There's certainly no disputing the impact that > machines such as those from Sinclair had as far as introducing people > to computers through their availability though. > > >My point was that you didn't have to write code when you bought a computer > >that was intended to be used as a computer in order just to get it to run your > >OS and applications. > > Personally, I consider the SS-50 bus boxes to be some of the > better designs as far as being able to start using the machine with > minimum fuss or additional requirements. As early as 1976 they > included a ROM monitor, from Motorolla, and enough I/O to connect a > serial terminal. > I don't know why they didn't become more popular, except that I never encountered anyone who had a complete system built on the SS-50. One thing that helped interest me in S-100, initially, was that, provided I was running CP/M, I could buy a vast supply of used floppy diskettes with things like Wordstar, various compilers, various interpreters, ... you get the idea ... I'm not sure that was possible for someone using SS-50 hardware. What OS was popular on that hardware? Which CPU's? > > >When you opened the box with your COCO, what useful work would it do with the > >$399 you had just spent? Could you write a letter? Could you write and > >compile a Fortran program? Could you save your work in any meaningful way? > >Given that you had a printer, could you attach it and use it? What software > >was there, that you could install and use? How and where would you install > >it? > > A base CoCo, without any type of expansion, could run > non-game applications such as the following: > > - Audio Spectrum Analyzer (real time waveform display of audio input) > - Color Scripsit for the Color Computer (word processing program) > - Typing Tutor > - Videotex > > There are plenty more but these are the ones that I own that > I can think of off the top of my head. All are in cartridge format > so they don't require a disk drive. Of course, there's always the > internal BASIC. Without that addition of the disk drive, you could > always use the cassette interface. There was even a version of the > CoCo1 that was sold as a terminal with the Videotex software in it's > ROM vice BASIC. > Normally, in '80-'82. if you wanted a game, you went to a toy (or discount) store, while, when you wanted a computer, you went to a computer store. You could tell what you were buying by looking at the sign in front of the store as you entered. That was not so easy with the Radio Shack, since their niche was the overlap. As time has passed, the distinction has become less obvious. > > >nearly similar actual capabilities. RS never did build something genuinely > >intended for expansion though, did they? > > Yes, RS liked to do odd things so that you couldn't expand > thier systems. They didn't do it to all of their systems though. > Except for the console cased 1000EX/HX, most of the 1000 series are > pretty expandable, nearly equal to any other XT-clone as long as you > knew some of the odd quirks to watch out for. The Model 2000 has 4 > 16bit expansion slots, though unfortunately few boards were made to > work in it. Others such as the Model III and 4 had minimal expansion > options internal but came standard with cassette, serial, parallel > and external bus extensions. RS was actually one of the earlier > adopters of built-in I/O ports while other micros still required you > to purchase them seperately. Their SL/TL series even had built-in > DAC's for sound input/output about the time the SoundBlaster and > AdLib cards were becoming popular. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From rmoyers at nop.org Sat Apr 27 02:42:11 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <006b01c1ec08$7823f340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844A7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <006b01c1ec08$7823f340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200204270742.g3R7gVh11133@Fubar.nop.org> On Wednesday 24 April 2002 22:22, you wrote: > If it's a mainframe, then the campus is the enclosure, > while if it's a desktop, it's pretty obvious what that is. Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules running on a PC running linux or winbloZ OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 terms over the network etc etc. So now the "real computer" runs as a small program on a PC Yes its the same deal as simh or p11, but this one will run the same systems as IBM's current top line hardware. From mhstein at canada.com Sat Apr 27 02:11:04 2002 From: mhstein at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: IBM PC 5150 Message-ID: <01C1ED9E.DA798FE0@mse-d03> >Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 19:16:58 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" >Subject: RE: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) >Did yours have the extra DB blockoff plate on the back panel? Yup! >Did it have a drive mounting screw coming up from the bottom? Yup! >My first 5150 came from IBM with a WHITE (NOT RED!) power switch, and a >BLACK power supply (63.5W?) Mine too! With very few, very stiff and very short connecting cables. >These days, I hardly EVER even see the 16K-64K motherboard ones. Well, I threw out the case a while ago, but still have the motherboard, some keyboards and maybe even the black PSU, as well as some IBM TM100 faceplates, if anybody's interested. mike From mhstein at canada.com Sat Apr 27 02:49:29 2002 From: mhstein at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <01C1ED9E.DE5654E0@mse-d03> Fred, you're my man! All the same printers, among others, that I used with my CBM PETs (except the LJ which came later, and my Diablo was the model without the 4004), and they were all FINE printers, especially the 101 (a substantial piece of hardware indeed); still have the 40 foot (!) parallel ribbon cable so I could keep the printer in the basement & close the door to keep the noise reasonable upstairs in the office... mike ----------------Original Message------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:53:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > The only printers for the coco really was the RS ones and really crappy > at that too! ANY "RS-232" printer that was switchable to "AUTO LF" would work just fine. And, with a serial/parallel converter (reaily available, and which quite a few people here are capable of building), parallel "centronics" printers worked. I used a Coco with DTC-300 (HiType I daisy wheel, with 4004 processor), Centronics 101 (weighed 4 zillion times what the computer did), silly radio shack pen plotter/printer, Epson MX-100, and HP Laserjet! Which of those is the crappiest? From rmoyers at nop.org Sat Apr 27 03:19:44 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: "Windows V1.0" ... V86-mode VMs In-Reply-To: <200204250514.g3P5Erbv097511@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <200204241707.KAA04381@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <200204250514.g3P5Erbv097511@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200204270820.g3R8K4511222@Fubar.nop.org> On Thursday 25 April 2002 00:14, you wrote: > "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > Windows didn't really have 386 support until 3.0 > > Um, I think the Windows Virtual Machine Manager (and the notion of > using multiple V86-mode VMs and virtual device drivers to run multiple > DOS windows concurrently) first turned up in Windows/386. Didnt Desqview and an AST Rampage card beat winblows ? ( lots of desqview sold bundeled with the card ) Before people had 386's you could do EEMS hardware paged mode multi tasking with it. all on 8088/86 machines. later when the 386 came to market, qemm did the function of the rampage card ( and more ). From rmoyers at nop.org Sat Apr 27 04:07:58 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200204270908.g3R985q11376@Fubar.nop.org> On Thursday 25 April 2002 06:15, you wrote: > > I've been going to hamfest for a LOT of years and one thing that I've > noticed is that there's practically zero interest in building stuff any > more. Parts and tools that used to be very sought after now go begging. > I built my first 4-1000A amp when i was 14 years old. I still have an extensive collection of tubes sockets blowers Jennings Vac caps, big HV oil caps and a few leftover pole pigs to build 3 - 7000 volt supplies from. Its a good thing too, because your right, the people that know how to build things are becoming rare I blame the dumbing down in our schools, "earth day" Marxism, smart aint cool culture. Those of us that learned how the universe works beginning in electronics, swapped out our own burnt buss drivers in our altairs and trs80's are becomming rare. And electronics isnt the only field, when clinton came in we had over 12,000 foundres in the US, now there are less than 40 in the whole country and the talent is being lost. Perhaps before China shoots the Nukes that Clinton gave em on the rockets clinton gave them we can ask for a "time out",, and ask em to make parts for our jets. Raymond From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 27 05:12:55 2002 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation Message-ID: Anyone want an IBM PC? Reply-to: joan-keith@attbi.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:57:08 -0400 From: Joan Keith Subject: Questions about a donation Hi, I have one of the earliest IBM PCs. I don't know if this is something you would be interested or not. As I recall, it was upgraded from 64k of memory to 192 and it has a single-sided 5 1/4 disk drive. It is in my mother's attic in Baltimore. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 27 07:03:45 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <01d501c1edbe$980c5a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784497@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> <004e01c1eba6$d8babde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr24.125931edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <005101c1ebfb$92882880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <02Apr25.073929edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <018f01c1ecb2$129e90c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <01d501c1edbe$980c5a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: > > Personally, I consider the SS-50 bus boxes to be some of the >> better designs as far as being able to start using the machine with >> minimum fuss or additional requirements. As early as 1976 they >> included a ROM monitor, from Motorolla, and enough I/O to connect a >> serial terminal. >> >I don't know why they didn't become more popular, except that I never >encountered anyone who had a complete system built on the SS-50. One thing >that helped interest me in S-100, initially, was that, provided I was running >CP/M, I could buy a vast supply of used floppy diskettes with things like >Wordstar, various compilers, various interpreters, ... you get the idea ... >I'm not sure that was possible for someone using SS-50 hardware. What OS was >popular on that hardware? Which CPU's? There's no disputing that the SS-50 bus machines didn't have the popularity or support of the S-100 bus machines though both lasted into the early 80's. Most were relatively low priced kit machines while later ones changed to higher priced machines aimed at the business market. Early disk systems for them tended to have quite simples DOS's that were comparable to North Star's DOS. Later FLEX and Uniflex were almost universally adopted though some people would run OS-9 as well. One of mine was set up for OS-9 when I received it. The CPU's used were the 6800 and 6809 with newer CPU's adopted by builders as time went on, plus a cool dual-CPU machine from Helix. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dquebbeman at acm.org Sat Apr 27 07:51:30 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") Message-ID: <000501c1edea$44d6e9f0$40eeffcc@Shadow> > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Did someone say power cords??? I got a box of about 4 dozen if you need any. > > Heh. I can get you about 4 dozen boxes of 'em.... I have finally figured out what the dealieo is with this... I've got so many it's as if two or three came with every device. But I was the one who unpacked almost everything at the office for the last 6 years. So what's happening is that they are reproducing. I think you're safe with just two in a box, they're not bunnies, but when you put three or more together, they gain some kind of sexual critical mass and start reproducing. Everything that's been given away had a power cord, and almost nothing has been thrown away. So this has got to be the answer... ;) From dquebbeman at acm.org Sat Apr 27 08:00:34 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Serendipity (Was: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)) Message-ID: <000b01c1edeb$88a90400$40eeffcc@Shadow> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > > Lots of perfectly useable computers started out as little > more than toys. [..snip..] > Nevertheless, Ed Roberts has gone on record as saying he didn't intend the > thing to grow into a computer, which suggests that he didn't originally view > it as one. The Processor Technology SOL likewise was not intended to be a stand-alone computer. Lee had in mind a terminal for use with connecting to real computers. I can't recall if he and Bob Marsh just looked at each other one day and realized it could be more, or if the stand-alone concept originated with Les Solomon. Bob Stek? Jim Battle? What do you recall? -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Sat Apr 27 08:17:30 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <001101c1eded$e6418450$40eeffcc@Shadow> > Chippewa??? I don't remember that one. I remember SCOPE > and, later, KRONOS. SCOPE and Kronos were based on Chippewa. COS was largely written by Seymour Cray; in particular, MTR is known by programmers who worked on it later to have been written completely by Cray. He and one or perhaps two others did it between June and December 1964. It was not meant to be a product. The *product* operating system to be bundled with the machine was SIPROS. SIPROS used an assembler named ASCENT that used different mnemonics thsn COMPASS, which was the assembler under SCOPE and Kronos. COS was written in octal. The source consists of two octal numbers, a load address, two spaces, and the value at that address. Further to the left in the traditional "comment field" area is indeed a comment field, so the COS octal source at least has some comments. There is a CP program named APRAB that assembles these octal sources to binary. COS also included Garner McCrossen's RUN compiler, which handled both FORTRAN II and FORTRAN IV, as well as embedded assembly language. The first versions of the display console programs DSD and DIS come from Chippewa, as well as the control cards COPY COPYCR COPYCF COPYBR COPYBF COPYSBF REWIND VERIFY LBC LOC PBC DMP plus concepts like the dayfile, control points, combined input & output (CIO), and the RUN compiler continued to be available in the later SCOPE and Kronos. You can read all about it at http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/cdc/60124500_ChippewaOSref.pdf -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Sat Apr 27 09:01:32 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <001701c1edf4$0d68f530$40eeffcc@Shadow> > SCOPE and Kronos were based on Chippewa. COS was largely > written by Seymour Cray; in particular, MTR is known by > programmers who worked on it later to have been written > completely by Cray. He and one or perhaps two others did > it between June and December 1964. I should point out here that Cray's MTR continued through NOS/BE 1.4 or later, but the Kronos version was rewritten from scratch by Greg Mansfield. -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 27 10:21:30 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 In-Reply-To: <000501c1edaa$9da760e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: > > Hello my name is Colin from (UK) i also have just got an Amstrad > > ppc640 just > > for messing around on.... but it doesn't have any operating > > system on it and > > won't recognise any disks as when i boot it up it always says > > invalid system > > disk... i am using both 720k diskettes and have tried 1.44meg and tried > > putting all dos versions and windows 95 onto it.... any advice > > would be most > > grateful.... > Sounds very like a hardware fault: most likely the floppy drive - possibly > the controller. I heard a while back from another fellow with the same description of a problem. In HIS case, it was because the target machine (a generic laptop) used 720K diskettes, and although he was "using 720K diskettes", his computer on which he was creating those "720K" diskettes was formatting them 1.4M Once he tried with a diskette that was actually FORMATTED 720K, it worked. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 10:23:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") References: <000501c1edea$44d6e9f0$40eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <001e01c1edff$7271f980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm always tripping over the things. That is, until I want one ... then I can't find that box ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 6:51 AM Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") > > > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > > > Did someone say power cords??? I got a box of about 4 dozen if you need > any. > > > > Heh. I can get you about 4 dozen boxes of 'em.... > > I have finally figured out what the dealieo is with this... I've > got so many it's as if two or three came with every device. But > I was the one who unpacked almost everything at the office for > the last 6 years. > > So what's happening is that they are reproducing. I think you're > safe with just two in a box, they're not bunnies, but when you put > three or more together, they gain some kind of sexual critical mass > and start reproducing. > > Everything that's been given away had a power cord, and almost > nothing has been thrown away. So this has got to be the answer... > > ;) > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 27 10:52:27 2002 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Hp2100 software available. Where ? References: <215bc521925e.21925e215bc5@ono.com> Message-ID: <3CCAC93B.E538FF73@tiac.net> A new programming language and operating system for HP processors is currently being developed for release as freeware. I expect it will be released this summer. Many HP systems ran as embedded control systems rather than as general data crunching machines. As a result, there is not the same level of software support as there is for machines like the PDP-8 or PDP-11. For operating systems, your pretty much limited to the various flavors of RTE or multi-user basic. Much older systems ran an OS called DOS, but this will fall well short of any modern concept of what a DOS should be. Most of the software consisted of software development tools to build instrumentation and control systems, as HP computers were initially developed to automate the first HP digital volt meters, etc. Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > Hello everybody. I should like to probe the HP2100 simulator available > under Bob Supnik's SIMH. Is there any software repository available > for this machine ? I know the Jeff Moffat's website programs only, > but somebody spoke here some time ago about some other place where > to get software for this machine. > > Greetings > > Sergio From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 27 10:46:29 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note from the description that it is probably NOT "one of the earliest" which had a motherboard with 16K chips and was available with as little as 16K, upgradeable to 64K. But it COULD be one such, and later had a 128K RAM card added. On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Anyone want an IBM PC? > > Reply-to: joan-keith@attbi.com > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:57:08 -0400 > From: Joan Keith > Subject: Questions about a donation > > Hi, > I have one of the earliest IBM PCs. I don't know if this is something > you would be interested or not. As I recall, it was upgraded from 64k > of memory to 192 and it has a single-sided 5 1/4 disk drive. It is in > my mother's attic in Baltimore. > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 27 10:50:38 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") In-Reply-To: <000501c1edea$44d6e9f0$40eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: [ower cords] On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > I have finally figured out what the dealieo is with this... I've > got so many it's as if two or three came with every device. But > I was the one who unpacked almost everything at the office for > the last 6 years. > > So what's happening is that they are reproducing. I think you're > safe with just two in a box, they're not bunnies, but when you put > three or more together, they gain some kind of sexual critical mass > and start reproducing. > > Everything that's been given away had a power cord, and almost > nothing has been thrown away. So this has got to be the answer... > > ;) You should also be aware that they are capable, in addition to reproducing, of metamorphosizing into keyboards, monitors, printers, and even PCs. By the time that I closed my office, it was completely over-run by them. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 27 10:55:26 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") In-Reply-To: <001e01c1edff$7271f980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm always tripping over the things. That is, until I want one ... then I > can't find that box ... That's because by that time they have metamorphized into keyboards, printers, monitors, and Apple ][s. From foo at siconic.com Sat Apr 27 11:25:25 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > Richard M. Stallman not only didn't invent open software, he didn't > coin the term. He DID provide a very critically imporatant rallying > point and a charismatic front for the computing/coding community. Charismatic? Ok, maybe in his early years, but I don't call picking at your toenails and eating the harvest during an interview very "charismatic". (Ok, it's only a rumor, but comes from a very reliable source.) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From foo at siconic.com Sat Apr 27 11:34:22 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > An amazingly strange and irrelevant distinction! > > Where was the mass storage interface of a 360 physically located? The > disk drives were NOT in the same box as the CPU. > > I sincerely doubt that putting the disk controller inside or outside the > CPU box has any significant effect on the Zuse number of the computer. Speaking of which, the Zuse factor formula was officially proposed today at VCF Europa 3.0. I've created a PHP script that computes your computer's Zuse factor. It's still in Beta mode, but will work for the most part. http://www.vintage.org/features/zuse.php The larger your number, the cooler or more classic your computer. Modern computers, and even micros from the 1980s, will come up with a very small number (1E-9 or smaller). I'm working on adding prefixes such as "micro", "nano", "pico" etc. instead of just outputting a puny number. If you don't like the formula, blame Hans, but it does seem to work for the most part. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 27 11:58:46 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > Richard M. Stallman not only didn't invent open software, he didn't > > coin the term. He DID provide a very critically imporatant rallying > > point and a charismatic front for the computing/coding community. > > Charismatic? Ok, maybe in his early years, but I don't call picking at > your toenails and eating the harvest during an interview very > "charismatic". Eeewww! And yes, I meant in the late '80s... If I do something vitally productive and significant, and then become senile and/or insane, I hope that the world doesn't _keep_ treating my pronouncements as vitally significant. I'm not implying that RMS is either senile or insane, but I think it's an accurate analogy. Doc From hybridhybrid at msn.com Sat Apr 27 12:01:45 2002 From: hybridhybrid at msn.com (hybridhybrid) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Mathiputer Message-ID: <000701c1ee0d$38740e40$cbcbb8cd@computer> Are you interested in another mathiputer - let me know Smith -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/3093935e/attachment.html From MTPro at aol.com Sat Apr 27 12:31:20 2002 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Mark-8 parts for sale Message-ID: <85.1abaa2f3.29fc3a68@aol.com> Thank you to everyone who responded to my ad to sell my Mark-8 kit. For anyone interested in the boards or additional parts, here is the man to contact: Steve Gabaly Apalachin, NY old_computers@yahoo.com Steve's a good guy and has painstakingly created his Mark-8s and parts, etc. His CD contains a wealth of great info including a copy of the original Radio Electronics article, a supplemental 47 page construction article, a 50 page manual detailing his experience and hints debugging this computer (with many photos and full scans of completed boards), and about 200 pages of the Mark-8 newsletter (the first real computer hobbyist newsletter that kept all the early pioneers informed before Byte came out, its a treasure chest of historical information about the Mark-8 and other early computers, the January 1975 issue is especially interesting, this is when the Altair was introduced). Best, David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Apr 27 12:38:09 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: Message-ID: <3CCAE201.40901@dragonsweb.org> Doc wrote: > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > >>On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: >> >> >>> Richard M. Stallman not only didn't invent open software, he didn't >>>coin the term. He DID provide a very critically imporatant rallying >>>point and a charismatic front for the computing/coding community. >> >>Charismatic? Ok, maybe in his early years, but I don't call picking at >>your toenails and eating the harvest during an interview very >>"charismatic". > > > Eeewww! > And yes, I meant in the late '80s... > > If I do something vitally productive and significant, and then become > senile and/or insane, I hope that the world doesn't _keep_ treating my > pronouncements as vitally significant. I'm not implying that RMS is > either senile or insane, but I think it's an accurate analogy. > > > Doc Well, Doc, if you even *look* like you're going to do something vitally productive and significant, or use your established reputation, in a manner that in any way inconveniences anyone as a result of their own arrogance, unearned privilege, cupidity, or megalomania, even if they have to project that inconvenience in there, you might just want to keep it to yourself, if that's an option. I offer R.D. Laing, Oppenheimer, and Hemingway, as obvious examples. Plenty more where they came from. jbdigriz From rcini at msn.com Sat Apr 27 12:41:32 2002 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: FW: Adopted -- PC Convertible 5140 Message-ID: I was contacted by the below person regarding a PC Convertible. I already have one so I'm passing this on to the list. Please contact Leigh directly. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Bluewolf Creative Arts [mailto:bluewolf.creative@verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:40 AM To: rcini@optonline.net Subject: RE: Adopted -- PC Convertible 5140 Hi Rich, Yes you may put the word out that I have a very nice one of these for sale - I'm thinking of putting it up on ebay to seewho nibbles, but I will wait until you contact your collector group first. Unfortunately I do not have a manual or any supporting software disks, etc - just the machine itself - which boots just fine and shows a window with commands at the bottom which I do not really understand - in addition to load/save/ - which is easy enough- there are commands for tron/troff/ and others. Here's my site: http://bluewolfcreative.com (still under construction) Best regards, Leigh >-----Original Message----- >From: Bluewolf Creative Arts [mailto:bluewolf.creative@verizon.net] >Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:47 PM >To: rcini@optonline.net >Subject: Re: Adopted -- PC Convertible 5140 > > >Rich, I recently acquired one of these machines also - >it's an IBM PC Convertible 5140 in perfect condition... >however, I am a mac person, so I am looking to sell >this machine. Are you interested? It came without >the printer but the external power supply works just >fine... no manual... it boots up just fine - tried some >dos commands but no luck - how does one work >this thing? It's pretty cute - looks like new... > >Leigh in Palm Springs CA SA From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 27 13:45:32 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Should Be: RIP for US industry! Re: .I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <200204270908.g3R985q11376@Fubar.nop.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <000501c1ebfb$98498c00$5becffcc@Shadow> <3.0.6.32.20020425071553.00821540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020427144532.0082ac50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:07 AM 4/27/02 -0500, Raymond wrote: >On Thursday 25 April 2002 06:15, you wrote: > > Perhaps before China shoots the Nukes that Clinton > gave em on the rockets clinton gave them we can > ask for a "time out",, and ask em to make parts for our > jets. Where have you been? They're already building many parts for Boeing. (Hmmm. I wonder if that might have something to do with Boeing laying off ~14,000 in the NW US recently?) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 27 13:46:35 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020427144635.00836c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:12 AM 4/27/02 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >Anyone want an IBM PC? Thanks but I'm trying to quite! :-) Joe > >Reply-to: joan-keith@attbi.com > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:57:08 -0400 >From: Joan Keith >Subject: Questions about a donation > >Hi, >I have one of the earliest IBM PCs. I don't know if this is something >you would be interested or not. As I recall, it was upgraded from 64k >of memory to 192 and it has a single-sided 5 1/4 disk drive. It is in >my mother's attic in Baltimore. > > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Apr 27 13:43:43 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <3CCAE201.40901@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3CCAF15F.3090309@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: >> >> If I do something vitally productive and significant, and then become >> senile and/or insane, I hope that the world doesn't _keep_ treating my >> pronouncements as vitally significant. I'm not implying that RMS is >> either senile or insane, but I think it's an accurate analogy. >> >> >> Doc > > > Well, Doc, if you even *look* like you're going to do something vitally > productive and significant, or use your established reputation, in a > manner that in any way inconveniences anyone as a result of their own > arrogance, unearned privilege, cupidity, or megalomania, even if they > have to project that inconvenience in there, you might just want to keep > it to yourself, if that's an option. > > I offer R.D. Laing, Oppenheimer, and Hemingway, as obvious examples. > Plenty more where they came from. > > jbdigriz > > P.S. Even those who disagree vehemently with Stallman respect his integrity, even if it's hard for some of them to understand his arguments (Not his fault, they include concepts difficult for some to grasp, which may be a blessing, all things considered, when you think about it.) You can't say he hasn't put his money where his mouth is. As for unflattering hearsay regarding his habits of personal hygiene, I don't see how that's relevant to his ideas or work, even if true. Nor does it reflect well on the repeater, in any case. Frankly, I could care less. Why should I? jbdigriz From Bernd.Kopriva at t-online.de Sat Apr 27 13:59:04 2002 From: Bernd.Kopriva at t-online.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Request for Help with the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC Coprocessor board) In-Reply-To: <200204261931.PAA09018@phu655.um.us.sbphrd.com> Message-ID: <171XO9-1oTYI4C@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> Hi Bill, i saw, that you were bidding for such a board on eBay yesterday (btw. i tried to get that board as well, but i was also unsuccessful :-( ) ... Do you already have such a board, but without documentation ? I grabbed some months ago a Definicion 68020 board, but without any software and documentation, i had no luck until now ... If you get the software/doucmentation you are asking for, is there a chance, that you will send me a copy ? (I still hope to get a 32032 board sometimes/somewhere). On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:31:49 -0400, morgarws@mh.us.sbphrd.com wrote: >I'm looking for any documentation and software for the Definicon DSI-32 >(NS32032 PC/XT coprocessor board). ... anything would be useful! > >Thanks in Advance, > >Bill Morgart >morgarws@Molbio.sbphrd.com > > Thanks Bernd Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd@kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 27 14:15:20 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: New 'Toy' References: Message-ID: <3CCAF8C8.1060104@internet1.net> Pat Finnegan wrote: > I'm > suprised the 16bit card works OK in an 8bit slot)..... Some of them can do that. I have a 16-bit ISA VGA card from Western Digital that will do it too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Apr 27 14:31:00 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: New 'Toy' In-Reply-To: <3CCAF8C8.1060104@internet1.net> References: <3CCAF8C8.1060104@internet1.net> Message-ID: >Pat Finnegan wrote: >>I'm >>suprised the 16bit card works OK in an 8bit slot)..... > >Some of them can do that. I have a 16-bit ISA VGA card from Western >Digital that will do it too. Other than memory cards, quite a few of the 16bit boards from the mid 1980's will work in an 8bit ISA slot, either by changing a jumper or through the board autodetecting the slot type. Western Digital / Paradise chipset VGA boards are known for this. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ernestls at attbi.com Sat Apr 27 14:49:32 2002 From: ernestls at attbi.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Free chips to good home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...and I have one unopened bag of Cheetos, and two half empty bags of Doritos -one might be stale. All free to the first person to come and pick them up in Seattle. E. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Chris Wren > Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 6:47 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Free chips to good home > > > I've got some chips sitting around that may (or may not) interest the > classiccmp'ers. > > 2 MC68010LC10 (10Mhz "aircraft carrier" (DIP-64) 68010s) > 1 MC68010R10 (10Mhz PGA 68010) > 4 AT&T DSP-16a > 2 Acorn chip sets (VL86C010 + VL86C410 + VL86C110) > 1 AMD 9511D (DIP Arithimetic Co-processor) > 4 COM9046 (SMC voice scramblers) > > The DSPs, Acorns, 9511, and COM9046s are all new. The 68Ks are pulls. > > If I mail these, they're free. If it's UPS, priority mail, or anything > else, all I ask for is the shipping cost. > > --John > From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 27 14:57:24 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: New 'Toy' References: <3CCAF8C8.1060104@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CCB02A4.5030201@texoma.net> Intel made a line of EthernetExpress NIC's that would autodetect slot type and autoconfigure for 8/16 bit slots. I'm using one in my Tandy 1000SX that's connected to the internet. James Jeff Hellige wrote: >> Pat Finnegan wrote: >> >>> I'm >>> suprised the 16bit card works OK in an 8bit slot)..... >> >> >> Some of them can do that. I have a 16-bit ISA VGA card from Western >> Digital that will do it too. > > > Other than memory cards, quite a few of the 16bit boards from the > mid 1980's will work in an 8bit ISA slot, either by changing a jumper > or through the board autodetecting the slot type. Western Digital / > Paradise chipset VGA boards are known for this. > > Jeff From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Apr 27 15:23:44 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:15 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III References: Message-ID: <3CCB08D0.9010602@dragonsweb.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>Well, I'm now the (proud?) owner of a Commodore PC-20-III. Ironically, this > > > A little more information, now that I've found my folder of PC10/PC20 > schematics... > > The 'motherboard' is really I/O only (looks to be a serial port, a > parallel port, and an FDC). The CPU card plugs into a special slot on > this board -- it appears the CPU is an 8088 with (optional?) 8087 > coprocessor. > > There were at least 3 video cards : Monochrome (looks to be MDA), Color > (looks to be CGA) and 'Advanced Monochrome' (looks to be Hercules). I > can't be absolutely sure about that because all the cards have programmed > PALs or PLAs on them and I don't have any info on what's inside them. The > only one to have a composite output is the Color one. And none of them > have DIP switches that I can see. > > So I would guess the card you have with the DIP switches is a generic > clone card. As is the one with the 2 DA15s on it. > > -tony > > As it happens I have a PC-10 lying around here. I just looked and it has a NEC 8088 and an empty slot for an 8087 on the motherboard. There is a special slot on the board, but it's just memory expansion (256K installed) There's an ATI "Graphics Solution Rev 3" CGA/MDA/(Hercules?) board in one of the ISA slots, with a 9-pin female "D"-sub connector that has a cable with a 6-pin male DIN connector plugged into it. The monitor is around here somewhere, too, but I forget what model it is. There's an FDC on the mobo, but no hard disk controller. jbdigriz From liste at artware.qc.ca Sat Apr 27 15:41:08 2002 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items In-Reply-To: <007901c1ed32$c906d360$2c000240@default> Message-ID: On 26-Apr-2002 John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Now for the wanted items - looking to complete my Mac collection that I > started years ago trying to collect one of each model from 1984 to 1995 > for a total of 103 machines. > PB160 - working or not I have a PB145 looking for a home. Computer works, screen doesn't. Shipping from Qu?bec. -Philip From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 27 16:12:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") References: Message-ID: <001101c1ee30$33cd0680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While that offers an attractive option, aside from the monitors, which are heavy, and the printers, which seldom work, I've found few Apple]['s with the PSU still in place down in the pit. It will work better now that the weather's more pleasant, because I'll be able to toss 'em in the dumpster and bring only the PSU in the house. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm always tripping over the things. That is, until I want one ... then I > > can't find that box ... > > That's because by that time they have metamorphized into keyboards, > printers, monitors, and Apple ][s. > > From vance at ikickass.org Sat Apr 27 16:28:42 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <200204270742.g3R7gVh11133@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > If it's a mainframe, then the campus is the enclosure, > > while if it's a desktop, it's pretty obvious what that is. > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > terms over the network etc etc. Ow! You're killing me! Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 27 16:29:34 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Free chips to good home References: Message-ID: <3CCB183E.8070206@internet1.net> I'll take the opened bag even if they are stale..... I'm hungary, and I can't find any food at Goodwill :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ernest wrote: > ...and I have one unopened bag of Cheetos, and two half empty bags of > Doritos -one might be stale. All free to the first person to come and pick > them up in Seattle. > > E. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Chris Wren >>Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 6:47 PM >>To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>Subject: Free chips to good home >> >> >>I've got some chips sitting around that may (or may not) interest the >>classiccmp'ers. >> >> 2 MC68010LC10 (10Mhz "aircraft carrier" (DIP-64) 68010s) >> 1 MC68010R10 (10Mhz PGA 68010) >> 4 AT&T DSP-16a >> 2 Acorn chip sets (VL86C010 + VL86C410 + VL86C110) >> 1 AMD 9511D (DIP Arithimetic Co-processor) >> 4 COM9046 (SMC voice scramblers) >> >>The DSPs, Acorns, 9511, and COM9046s are all new. The 68Ks are pulls. >> >>If I mail these, they're free. If it's UPS, priority mail, or anything >>else, all I ask for is the shipping cost. >> >>--John >> > > > > From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 27 16:35:03 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Free DEC R400X DSSI expansion chassis Message-ID: <3CCB1987.2080507@internet1.net> Free DEC R400X DSSI expansion chassis, plus a few other spare parts from the one I scrapped out. It has no drive sleds, unfortunetly. It is in Southwest Michigan, and you must come pick it up. I will not ship this thing. Please respond off list. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 27 15:18:26 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: <200204270112.SAA15976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 26, 2 06:12:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 882 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/69802953/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 27 16:18:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <00b101c1edb4$f283baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 27, 2 00:03:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/86c6ae1c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 27 15:54:35 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Apr 26, 2 09:22:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/86fc4141/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 27 16:25:47 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: New 'Toy' In-Reply-To: from "Pat Finnegan" at Apr 27, 2 01:42:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/6754fedf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 27 16:30:20 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 27, 2 09:34:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 299 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020427/7fc87e67/attachment.ksh From dquebbeman at acm.org Sat Apr 27 17:10:37 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <000501c1ee38$603f6070$e5efffcc@Shadow> > > > If it's a mainframe, then the campus is the enclosure, > > > while if it's a desktop, it's pretty obvious what that is. > > > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > terms over the network etc etc. > > Ow! You're killing me! What's the emoticon for the world's smallest violin? You're breakin' our hearts! ;) From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Apr 27 17:30:38 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: New 'Toy' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Tony Duell wrote: > > I now seem to have a problem with its second floppy drive... When I try > > Does anyone have any info I can use to try and debug (and hopefully fix) > > A few simple things to check first : > > 1) Check the cables at the back of the second drive (34 way ribbon on an > edge connector, 4 way power connector). Make sure they're both firmly in > place. Re-seated those connecters a few times, with no results. However, after swapping the two drives, I got them both working again. I'm thinking I should replace that ribbon cable as soon as I get a chance... but I'm just happy to have both drives working again. :) > As a general point, it helps on questions like this if you give us some > idea as to the test gear and experience you have. There's little point in > me digging out the schematics (and I do have them) for this machine and > saying 'check the waveform at pin of IC ' if you don't have a > logic analyser or 'scope and wouldn't know how to use one if you did. > Likewise there's little point in me saying 'make sure the disk is in the > right way up' if you've already got a 'scope connected and can tell me > that you're missing one of the stepper motor drive waveforms or something. For future reference, I'm pretty knowedgeable about electronic hardware, have a 10MHz scope and other 'basic' tools, and the common sense to put the disk in right-side-up (well, most of the time anyways :). -- Pat From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Apr 27 18:00:40 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Murdering Classic machines (was: Re: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)")) In-Reply-To: <001101c1ee30$33cd0680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Can someone PLEASE turn down Dick's flame control? Or at least send him a SIGHUP? Thanks. -- Pat On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > While that offers an attractive option, aside from the monitors, which are > heavy, and the printers, which seldom work, I've found few Apple]['s with the > PSU still in place down in the pit. > > It will work better now that the weather's more pleasant, because I'll be able > to toss 'em in the dumpster and bring only the PSU in the house. > > Dick From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Apr 27 18:12:50 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") In-Reply-To: <001101c1ee30$33cd0680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > While that offers an attractive option, aside from the monitors, which > are heavy, and the printers, which seldom work, I've found few > Apple]['s with the PSU still in place down in the pit. > > It will work better now that the weather's more pleasant, because I'll > be able to toss 'em in the dumpster and bring only the PSU in the > house. What exactly do you need that many PSUs for anyway? I would think that I'm not the only one here on the list who is stating to feel offended by your bragging about butchering and dumping perfectly good systems. If you are going to continue to scrap Apple gear, thats your choice, just don't talk about it here. -Toth From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Apr 27 18:17:48 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020427144635.00836c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c1ee41$bf10d1c0$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I contacted the email listed but haven't yet heard back about this historical old machine. I, for one (and maybe the only one, it seems) have a lot of respect for PCs (PeeCees) and what they mean to the industry as a whole. I can sympathize with some of those that might have some contempt for the "typical" PC user or who may not appreciate the role of the PC today, but I recognize the power that they have helped disseminate and their place in history, at least. I'll always add another old orphan to my collection. Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:47 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Questions about a donation At 03:12 AM 4/27/02 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >Anyone want an IBM PC? Thanks but I'm trying to quite! :-) Joe > >Reply-to: joan-keith@attbi.com > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:57:08 -0400 >From: Joan Keith >Subject: Questions about a donation > >Hi, >I have one of the earliest IBM PCs. I don't know if this is something >you would be interested or not. As I recall, it was upgraded from 64k >of memory to 192 and it has a single-sided 5 1/4 disk drive. It is in >my mother's attic in Baltimore. > > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 27 18:17:27 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items References: Message-ID: <006f01c1ee41$b361caa0$8f000240@default> Thanks but I have a working PB145 already. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: RE: Some new finds and Some Wanted Items > > On 26-Apr-2002 John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > Now for the wanted items - looking to complete my Mac collection that I > > started years ago trying to collect one of each model from 1984 to 1995 > > for a total of 103 machines. > > PB160 - working or not > I have a PB145 looking for a home. Computer works, screen doesn't. > > Shipping from Qu?bec. > > -Philip > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 27 18:23:11 2002 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Found Half a apf MP1000 Message-ID: <007901c1ee42$8039ac00$8f000240@default> While cleaning at the warehouse today I found the top half of a apf MP1000 console with the two controllers attached. Now I have to hope somewhere in this place I have the bottom? Awhile back I picked up 4 cartridges for this thing and at this rate I should have a complete working unit by August. :-) From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Apr 27 18:23:49 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c1ee42$95cee120$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I'm pretty sure that the single sided drives were long gone by the time the 256K motherboard came out. Of course, I've already proven the worth of my memory, so. . . :) Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 8:46 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Re: Questions about a donation Note from the description that it is probably NOT "one of the earliest" which had a motherboard with 16K chips and was available with as little as 16K, upgradeable to 64K. But it COULD be one such, and later had a 128K RAM card added. On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Anyone want an IBM PC? > > Reply-to: joan-keith@attbi.com > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:57:08 -0400 > From: Joan Keith > Subject: Questions about a donation > > Hi, > I have one of the earliest IBM PCs. I don't know if this is something > you would be interested or not. As I recall, it was upgraded from 64k > of memory to 192 and it has a single-sided 5 1/4 disk drive. It is in > my mother's attic in Baltimore. > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Apr 27 18:36:05 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Murdering Classic machines (was: Re: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)")) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote: > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > It will work better now that the weather's more pleasant, because I'll > > be able to toss 'em in the dumpster and bring only the PSU in the > > house. > > Can someone PLEASE turn down Dick's flame control? Or at least send > him a SIGHUP? SIGTERM might work better, since SIGHUP is often used as a restart signal in modern software. SIGSTOP also might work temporarily, but someone is bound to come along and issue a SIGCONT or SIGKILL. -Toth From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Apr 27 18:25:16 2002 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: "Erik S. Klein"'s message of "Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:31:22 -0700" References: <004701c1ec87$675ef120$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> Message-ID: <200204272325.g3RNPfXR069228@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Erik S. Klein" wrote: > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. Back in the early-to-mid 1990s some friends of mine and I were comparing microcomputers we had over a roughly 15-year time span. Our conclusion was that from 1976 'til then, it cost about US$3000 to buy "the computer system you wanted", meaning what your computer system eventually grew into. That usually included some sort of peripherals, often bought after the initial purchase, and we were looking at an IMSAI 8080, a couple TRS-80s (Model Is), an Apple ][+, an IBM PC/XT, an Amiga 1000, and I'm not sure what else. I think at the time I was thinking my 486/33 desktop PC was below the curve (at about $2000), but I bought it from someone who was closing his computer store so got a pretty good deal. (BTW, I think it's on-topic now, it's still in use as a dial-on-demand NAT router, and it's been on 24x7 most of the last 10 years. Yes, you can blame me for last year's power woes in California.) I'm not sure where things are today but I think prices have come down. My last couple systems bought new for a purpose are notebook PCs, and of course there's a premium associated with that. I'm thinking they are something like $2500 and $2000, and the latter is an iBook that hasn't cost me that much yet but probably will by the time I'm done with it (I want to get it some more RAM, an Airport card, maybe a USB stiffy drive). -Frank McConnell From jrice at texoma.net Sat Apr 27 18:50:50 2002 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation References: <000001c1ee41$bf10d1c0$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Message-ID: <3CCB395A.60103@texoma.net> Actually, I have a 64k cassette port IBM PC in my collection. It was given to me by an older gentleman, a doctor who had purchased it new, but was scared of it. The original MDA display that has to be plugged into the pass thru on the power suppy and an oroginal IBM keyboard that sound and feels like a Selectric typewriter was included. It has spent the first 20 years of it's life sitting on a table, covered with a heavy vinyl cover. It's as dust free as new inside. I estimate it's probably only had a few minutes run time in it's entire existance. I fire it up for a couple of hours each year at our office as part of an exhibition of our medical software, from beginning to present day. Erik S. Klein wrote: >I contacted the email listed but haven't yet heard back about this >historical old machine. > >I, for one (and maybe the only one, it seems) have a lot of respect for >PCs (PeeCees) and what they mean to the industry as a whole. I can >sympathize with some of those that might have some contempt for the >"typical" PC user or who may not appreciate the role of the PC today, >but I recognize the power that they have helped disseminate and their >place in history, at least. > >I'll always add another old orphan to my collection. > > Erik > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe >Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:47 AM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Questions about a donation > >At 03:12 AM 4/27/02 -0700, Sellam wrote: > > >>Anyone want an IBM PC? >> >> > > > Thanks but I'm trying to quite! :-) > > Joe > > > > >>Reply-to: joan-keith@attbi.com >> >> >>---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 12:57:08 -0400 >>From: Joan Keith >>Subject: Questions about a donation >> >>Hi, >>I have one of the earliest IBM PCs. I don't know if this is something >>you would be interested or not. As I recall, it was upgraded from 64k >>of memory to 192 and it has a single-sided 5 1/4 disk drive. It is in >>my mother's attic in Baltimore. >> >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> >> >Festival > > >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >------- > > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> >> >http://www.vintage.org > > >>* Old computing resources for business and academia at >> >> >www.VintageTech.com * > > >> >> >> > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 27 19:42:31 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: <000101c1ee42$95cee120$6e7ba8c0@piii933> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Erik S. Klein wrote: > I'm pretty sure that the single sided drives were long gone by the time > the 256K motherboard came out. Good point > Of course, I've already proven the worth of my memory, so. . . :) I really don't remember the IBM sequence, since I used aftermarket drives (same Tandon drives for ~$200 v IBM's $540) I do remember that I was using double sided drives with the "leaked" patch for quite a while before IBM made them available along with support in PC-DOS 1.10. I have no idea when they changed the motherboard from 16-64K to 64-256K. For the machine in question, the 64K to 192K upgrade could be either: 1) filling two more rows of RAM on a 64-256K motherboard 2) adding a 128K RAM card to an already full 16-64K motherboard. BTW, when somebody says "64K motherboard", do they mean the 16-64K or the 64-256K? Did IBM ever OFFICIALLY support the 640K conversion of the 64-256K board? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 27 20:10:36 2002 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Unix versions In-Reply-To: <10204261857.ZM6526@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Apr 26, 2002 05:57:32 pm" Message-ID: <200204280110.g3S1Abjl009014@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> > On Apr 26, 10:19, Bill Pechter wrote: > Thanks for the information -- I'm enlightened. Did DECX/11 ever make it > outside of DEC's walls, other than in the form of strings of modules for > field confidence tests? > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York As far as I know that's as far as it got inside DEC as well. I once wondered where was the base DOS/Batch box left inside DEC to build the XXDP stuff and DECX/11... I figure they just hacked it on a DEC10 or RSTS/E box... maybe later on a VAX under PDP11 emulators. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 27 20:57:36 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Unix versions Message-ID: <002b01c1ee58$4ae07000$51f19a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Pechter >As far as I know that's as far as it got inside DEC as well. >I once wondered where was the base DOS/Batch box left inside DEC >to build the XXDP stuff and DECX/11... I figure they just hacked it on >a DEC10 or RSTS/E box... maybe later on a VAX under PDP11 emulators. Used to be in building 21 fieldservice diagnostic engineering. I always wondered what the internal structure of it was. Allison From david.woyciesjes at yale.edu Sat Apr 27 22:01:31 2002 From: david.woyciesjes at yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... Solved! References: <200204262241.g3QMf0J22604@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3CCB660B.EE4506D6@yale.edu> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > > try to describe the scsi bus and termination. > > > > do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... > > > > > > > > let me know what that does. > > > > I'm pretty sure that there is a Sun screwup in the Ultra1 boot ROM such > > that "probe-scsi" doesn't work right when "auto-boot" is enabled. > > > > auto-boot?=false > > After turning off auto-boot you need to type 'reset' and hit return, this is > true on both Ultra 1's and 2's. If the auto-boot is already off, you still > need to do a 'reset' before doing teh probe-scsi/probe-scsi-all. > > Zane Well, the RRD42 worked fine externally, so I tried it internally. No good. So, as I was disconnecting it, the plastic (?) ribbon cable started to tear away from where it connects to the HDD cage! That would explain why the PROM never saw any internal SCSI drives! Time to stick my CD in a SCSI case... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Ver. 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From david.woyciesjes at yale.edu Sat Apr 27 22:04:19 2002 From: david.woyciesjes at yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] References: <200204262241.g3QMf0J22604@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3CCB66B3.51B12085@yale.edu> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > > try to describe the scsi bus and termination. > > > > do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... > > > > > > > > let me know what that does. > > > > I'm pretty sure that there is a Sun screwup in the Ultra1 boot ROM such > > that "probe-scsi" doesn't work right when "auto-boot" is enabled. > > > > auto-boot?=false > > After turning off auto-boot you need to type 'reset' and hit return, this is > true on both Ultra 1's and 2's. If the auto-boot is already off, you still > need to do a 'reset' before doing teh probe-scsi/probe-scsi-all. > > Zane Well the RRD42, external CD worked. And I found out exactly why no CD drive worked internally... the plastic ribbon cable was tearing away! Oh well. Guess it's time to stick my CD-ROM in a SCSI case... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Ver. 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From pat at purdueriots.com Sat Apr 27 21:51:15 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 Message-ID: I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if anyone knew if a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? My next step is to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... -- Pat From louiss at gate.net Sat Apr 27 22:07:15 2002 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited In-Reply-To: <002b01c1ee58$4ae07000$51f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: I am putting my SWTPc 6800 back together, after complete disassembly for cleaning. So, on to testing the power supply. It works! But here's the question, which I know has been discussed before with respect to S-100 machines. The power supply is a big transformer with one really big (91,000 ufd) capacitor, and the usual rectifier stuff, etc. The documents call for 7-8 volts unregulated, along with + and - 12V. I am getting something like 9.3 V, and + and - 14.3 V. Are these voltages too high? Of course, on the SS-50 and SS-30 cards there are voltage regulators, but I don't want to cause any damage. This thing probably hasn't been powered up in 25 years. How can I check the capacitor function without an oscilloscope or other fancy equipment? Should I worry about "reforming" the capacitor? Thoughts appreciated. Louis From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 27 22:15:32 2002 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote: > I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if anyone knew if > a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? My next step is > to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... Have you looked at "Concurrent CP/M-86"? From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Apr 27 22:40:50 2002 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited References: Message-ID: <3CCB6F42.6AF8CE7A@ccp.com> Louis Schulman wrote: > > I am putting my SWTPc 6800 back together, after complete disassembly > for cleaning. So, on to testing the power supply. > > It works! But here's the question, which I know has been discussed > before with respect to S-100 machines. > > The power supply is a big transformer with one really big (91,000 ufd) > capacitor, and the usual rectifier stuff, etc. The documents call for > 7-8 volts unregulated, along with + and - 12V. > > I am getting something like 9.3 V, and + and - 14.3 V. Are these > voltages too high? Of course, on the SS-50 and SS-30 cards there are > voltage regulators, but I don't want to cause any damage. This thing > probably hasn't been powered up in 25 years. > > How can I check the capacitor function without an oscilloscope or other > fancy equipment? Should I worry about "reforming" the capacitor? > > Thoughts appreciated. > > Louis Shouldn't be a problem, as S100 cards have onboard regulators to get +5, and +/-12. Only problem there is that the regulator transistor will be dissapating a bit more power, so have a fan on the card cage if possible. The heatsink should run warm to the touch, and if it it is too hot to comfortablly hold for several seconds, then you may be in trouble. Any excess heat means a premature death for solid state electronics. You might look at the cards and inspect the regulator circuitry. a darkening of the pcb underneat the heatskink is normal, but if the traces seemed to be crispy crittered, ya got problems, or will have probs very soon. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 27 23:35:03 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: <000101c1ee42$95cee120$6e7ba8c0@piii933> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020428003503.0082abb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:23 PM 4/27/02 -0700, you wrote: >I'm pretty sure that the single sided drives were long gone by the time >the 256K motherboard came out. > Not really. Somewhere I have an old IBM order form and it shows that you could get a lot more variations of IBM PCs than you'd expect. Including one or two SS or DS drives, various cards, different amounts of RAM, etc. There were quite a few combinations. Despite my sarcasm I too am fond of the IBM PC. I regard it as THE single machine that legitamized the entire personal computer movement. Altairs and all the rest had some significance but it was the IBM PC that was the first truely usable machine for anyone other than the hobbiest/hacker/programmer. It's just that there are so many of them out there that I get tired of them. I just pitched two a couple of days ago and I still have an early 64k model w/ 48k RAM and a monochrome monitor. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 28 00:00:42 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited In-Reply-To: References: <002b01c1ee58$4ae07000$51f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020428010042.0081c120@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:07 PM 4/27/02 -0400, you wrote: >I am putting my SWTPc 6800 back together, after complete disassembly >for cleaning. So, on to testing the power supply. > >It works! But here's the question, which I know has been discussed >before with respect to S-100 machines. > >The power supply is a big transformer with one really big (91,000 ufd) >capacitor, and the usual rectifier stuff, etc. The documents call for >7-8 volts unregulated, along with + and - 12V. > >I am getting something like 9.3 V, and + and - 14.3 V. Are these >voltages too high? Those readings sound about right for a PS with no load. You have to remember that this is a totally unregulated circuit and that the caps will charge to the PEAK voltage instead of the average (RMS) voltage since there's no load to draw their voltage down. Of course, on the SS-50 and SS-30 cards there are >voltage regulators, but I don't want to cause any damage. This thing >probably hasn't been powered up in 25 years. Assuming that the PS still puts out the same voltage under load, your regulators should handle 9.3 and 14.3 volts, at least for a time. The problem with excessive voltage in a situation like this is that the regulators will have to drop more voltage (9.3v -5v) vs (8v -5v) and to do that they convert it to heat. So they have more of a tendency to overheat. But my guess is that once you put a load on it you'll find that the PS voltages are nearer to normal and the regulators will handle it just fine. > >How can I check the capacitor function without an oscilloscope or other >fancy equipment? Connect a dummy load and check the PS voltage with any decent meter. If the caps are shorted the voltage will be zero. If the caps have little or no capacity then the voltage will be low. How low depends on the current capacity of the PS, how much capacity that the caps have and how much of a load is applied so it's MOL guess work. You can use just about anything for a dummy load. Light bulbs would be a good choice but I've used old disk drives and all sorts of things that were disposable. I'd start with something that would draw about 1/10 of the rated current and work up to perhaps 1/2 of the rated current. Should I worry about "reforming" the capacitor? If you're already powered it up then the capacitor has already been "reformed". If they were bad you'd have almost certainly known it by now (blown fuses, zero voltage output, etc). Joe > >Thoughts appreciated. > >Louis > > From rmoyers at nop.org Sun Apr 28 00:02:12 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <200204280502.g3S52DY14152@Fubar.nop.org> On Saturday 27 April 2002 16:28, you wrote: > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > terms over the network etc etc. > > Ow! You're killing me! Actually, its sort of unexpected that you havent been pointed to this project or found this on your own. Its certainly a less cost option than a P370/390 card These guys for example have a turnkey cdrom image where you can go from the cd burner to a TSO login in only a few minutes. A real box can total flood a bundle of gigabit fiber the diameter of your right leg, its the I/O that sets these monsters apart really, their CPUs are no slouch, but not any faster than a common modern PC chip. Course there is their memory scrubing, the ability to hotspare memory modules on the fly, redundancy that can even deal with failed cache and buss lines. After reading about all the bother they go to to make these things survive failures and glitches, it brings to mind a senario where you wonder how many .45 cal pistol slugs the machine could absorb before the failure handler could no longer cope. There is a paper that explains the systems and schemes that go into the machines hardware fault tolerance that would leave the first time readers jaw agape, but i cant dig up the url at present. The emulator is still a very worthwhile project to look at however, and despite me using it first as a brickbat its rather cool and usefull for doing real work. (Development at home etc) Raymond ------------------------------------------------------- From swtpc6800 at attbi.com Sun Apr 28 00:15:31 2002 From: swtpc6800 at attbi.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited References: Message-ID: <005e01c1ee73$b87a3130$9865fea9@downstairs> These voltages are OK for an unloaded system. Put in four or five 2102 memory boards and it drops to 7.5 volts. If you want to replace that big capacitor you can find a new replacement at Mouser Electronics. www.mouser.com The Mouser part number is 539-CGS16V110000 and they cost about $22. This is the right size, 2.5 x 4.125 inches. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 8:07 PM Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited > I am putting my SWTPc 6800 back together, after complete disassembly > for cleaning. So, on to testing the power supply. > > It works! But here's the question, which I know has been discussed > before with respect to S-100 machines. > > The power supply is a big transformer with one really big (91,000 ufd) > capacitor, and the usual rectifier stuff, etc. The documents call for > 7-8 volts unregulated, along with + and - 12V. > > I am getting something like 9.3 V, and + and - 14.3 V. Are these > voltages too high? Of course, on the SS-50 and SS-30 cards there are > voltage regulators, but I don't want to cause any damage. This thing > probably hasn't been powered up in 25 years. > > How can I check the capacitor function without an oscilloscope or other > fancy equipment? Should I worry about "reforming" the capacitor? > > Thoughts appreciated. > > Louis > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 28 00:19:04 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:16 2005 Subject: Free chips to good home References: Message-ID: <3CCB8648.B4852819@jetnet.ab.ca> Ernest wrote: > > ...and I have one unopened bag of Cheetos, and two half empty bags of > Doritos -one might be stale. All free to the first person to come and pick > them up in Seattle. Sorry but I need my COLA too! -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 28 00:47:43 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher Message-ID: <20020428054936.WCJP962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: r. 'bear' stricklin > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but didn't get > > one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) with 8 > > MB RAM and a pair of 700 MB ESDI drives for $1080. That was with a 1kx768x16 > > VGA display board. I hacked it to work with a fixed-frequency (sync-on-green) > > monitor I had sitting around. It was WONDERFUL. That was in early '89. ['bear' replied:] > This struck me as being blatantly wrong, since it seemed to me (if I > recalled) that in early 1989 your 8 MB of RAM would've run nearly $1k by > itself. > > So I checked the January 1990 issue of "Byte". These are directly from the > cheap ads at the back, and representative of prices a year (loosely) > after your conjectured purchase date: [snip prices] > I admit some margin of error is to be expected, but these prices---sampled > fully eight or nine months after your stated date---do not come close to > corroborating your statements. In consideration of this, I must humbly > submit that you are totally full of shit, or at the very least have made a > grave typographical error. >From my files, an invoice from 1990: 25 MHz 80386, motherboard, case, power supply, 4MB RAM, 1.44 MB FDD, 100MB HD, no i/o, no video, no modem $1450, which is exactly in line with the prices you quoted. Ah, but we must remember that Richard buys Windows for $2. He never pays what we have to pay, nor does he stoop to using bullshit systems like we do (Apple, C64, Unix, Amiga). Richard Erlacher is simply a troll. Or an Alzheimer's victim. Or both. Yes, he has some "stuff" which he will sometimes share, but it's hardly worth the amount of crap we put up with here, not to mention that his crappy posts are deliberately formatted in a way which most classiccmpers find hard to read. > As for the rest of you honking geese Just a minute here! Some of my best friends are geese! http://members.aol.com/gusggoose Glen 0/0 From rmoyers at nop.org Sun Apr 28 00:50:10 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC Message-ID: <200204280550.g3S5oFR14259@Fubar.nop.org> For those interested http://www.nop.org/misc/pics/ibmpc Im one of those that still has many of his old mags going back to the altair days. In the collection is the Jan 82 issue of Byte this article is about the IBM PC, and perhaps some may get a kick out of reading from scans of these yellowed pages Raymond From Alexanderfam at aol.com Sun Apr 28 02:18:07 2002 From: Alexanderfam at aol.com (Alexanderfam@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Toshiba T3100/20 Message-ID: <135.d7f27a4.29fcfc2f@aol.com> Hi, I have a secondhand T3100/20 and on the left hand side, the side where the hard drive is, next to the A,B,PRT switch there is a small DIN socket. Does anyone know what this does? If it's the internal modem, how do I communicate with it please? Many thanks, Lawrence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020428/427d1e1f/attachment.html From foo at siconic.com Sun Apr 28 03:47:48 2002 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Recycling donated PCs In-Reply-To: <200204251411.KAA12522@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > Check out this place in Oakland, CA: > > http://www.linuxjournal.com//article.php?sid=6021 > > They are taking donated PCs, installs Linux on them a provides them to > schools, scientists, governments, non-profits, the underprivileged > and the handicapped. > > They also are creating cluster farms which are being used in *very* cool > ways! Yes, all this and more at the Alameda County Computer Resource Center: http://www.accrc.org (Home of the VCF Archives :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Apr 28 03:57:42 2002 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Toshiba T3100/20 References: <135.d7f27a4.29fcfc2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CCBB986.9DBEA80C@gifford.co.uk> Alexanderfam@aol.com wrote: > I have a secondhand T3100/20 and on the left hand side, the side where I have one of those fine old plasma-screen machines, too! > the hard drive is, next to the A,B,PRT switch there is a small DIN > socket. > Does anyone know what this does? I think it's a socket for an external keyboard. Some early laptops were fitted with sockets like this so that you could plug in a bigger keyboard or a numeric keypad. I don't think the modem has a DIN-style plug -- look for an RJ-11 socket for that (square, not round like the DIN). -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Apr 28 05:54:44 2002 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Toshiba T3100/20 In-Reply-To: <3CCBB986.9DBEA80C@gifford.co.uk> References: <135.d7f27a4.29fcfc2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020428064905.00b7a528@mail.wincom.net> At 09:57 AM 28/04/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Alexanderfam@aol.com wrote: > > I have a secondhand T3100/20 and on the left hand side, the side where > >I have one of those fine old plasma-screen machines, too! > > > the hard drive is, next to the A,B,PRT switch there is a small DIN > > socket. > > Does anyone know what this does? > >I think it's a socket for an external keyboard. Some early laptops >were fitted with sockets like this so that you could plug in a >bigger keyboard or a numeric keypad. I don't think the modem has >a DIN-style plug -- look for an RJ-11 socket for that (square, not >round like the DIN). > >-- >John Honniball >coredump@gifford.co.uk Sorry, gents, there is no built in modem on the 3100/20. The Serial B port is another serial port, an RS232 receptacle for a modem or serial printer. The A-B-Prt switch is to set the parallel port to A or B, external floppy drive, or PRT for printer. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten" at http://chasfoxvideo.com From hansp at aconit.org Sun Apr 28 07:43:59 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: Message-ID: <3CCBEE8F.80904@aconit.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>If you don't like the formula, blame Hans, but it does seem to work for >>the most part. > And what is the formula you finally decided on? Awp/BI where A is area in square meters, w is weight in kg, p = power in Watts, B is total storage in bits, and I is instructions per second Just reporting from the web site. -- hbp From meltie at myrealbox.com Sun Apr 28 08:41:32 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: DECStation Ultrix Message-ID: <1020001381.2564.20.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Whilst i'm in a "fixing problems with my classiccmps" mood, does anyone have a copy of the Decstation Ultrix Installation CD at home that they could make an ISO file of for me, so I can resurrect my DS3100? Thanks Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 09:13:01 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) References: <3CCBEE8F.80904@aconit.org> Message-ID: <001901c1eebe$ce666ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> so it's really a cost/benefit ratio, right? The number increases as the cost increases, and the number decreases as the benefits increase. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans B Pufal" To: Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:43 AM Subject: Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) > Tony Duell wrote: > >>If you don't like the formula, blame Hans, but it does seem to work for > >>the most part. > > > And what is the formula you finally decided on? > > Awp/BI > > where A is area in square meters, w is weight in kg, p = power in Watts, > B is total storage in bits, and I is instructions per second > > Just reporting from the web site. > > -- hbp > > > > > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 28 09:13:43 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC References: <200204280550.g3S5oFR14259@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CCC0397.8060509@dragonsweb.org> Raymond Moyers wrote: > > For those interested > > http://www.nop.org/misc/pics/ibmpc > > Im one of those that still has many of his old mags > going back to the altair days. > > In the collection is the Jan 82 issue of Byte > this article is about the IBM PC, and perhaps > some may get a kick out of reading from > scans of these yellowed pages > > Raymond > > Why? I didn't get a kick out of it then. The IBM PC is a reminder that history is not always a pleasant thing. It is a slap in the face to all those who pioneered the low cost, personal computer years before it came along. Not just garage-tinkering techs and entrepreneurs, but big corps., mass-producing. It succeeded not because it was better, but because it was acceptable to the kind of person who nowadays looks down their nose if you don't have a fax number, but still refuses to correspond by email, and because everyone grasped that immediately in 1981. Including many who should have known better. Including some who already had better machines in the same class on the market that cost about the same to build, but were priced as much as 3-4 times higher. To be more specific, it succeeded by the cachet of 3 letters that IBM was either willing or unable to prevent others from coattail riding upon, especially by copying the hardware. Perhaps the open spec helped, but that would have been reverse-engineered as was the BIOS. If IBM had contracted with Commodore to put a VIC 20 with expansion slots in a grey steel box it would have done as well, and we would all be awaiting the imminent release of the 64-bit 6502 now, instead of IA-64. I won't knock the machine itself. It was okay, though some of the cost compromises were highly questionable, even for the time. It was however a poor choice for "the" industry standard. Particularly the system bus. Especially when more than one already existed, with hard won formal specs and all, that didn't lock everyone into a single CPU family. jbdigriz From dquebbeman at acm.org Sun Apr 28 09:28:13 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 Message-ID: <000501c1eec0$f2482370$62eeffcc@Shadow> > I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if anyone knew if > a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? My next step is > to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... Yes, it's called MP/M-86: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21I.ZIP or http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21E.ZIP hth, -dq From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 28 09:30:22 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Recycling donated PCs References: Message-ID: <3CCC077E.8020004@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Bryan Pope wrote: > > >>Check out this place in Oakland, CA: >> >>http://www.linuxjournal.com//article.php?sid=6021 >> >>They are taking donated PCs, installs Linux on them a provides them to >>schools, scientists, governments, non-profits, the underprivileged >>and the handicapped. >> >>They also are creating cluster farms which are being used in *very* cool >>ways! > > > Yes, all this and more at the Alameda County Computer Resource Center: > > http://www.accrc.org > > (Home of the VCF Archives :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > I wonder if these folks are considering anything similiar, at least as an adjunct. http://www.mde.state.md.us/was/recycle/ecycling/default.asp More coverage: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/04/27/1331232.shtml?tid=103 Time for spring-cleaning, SWMBO effect, county landfills collecting computers...Might not be a pretty sight, otherwise. jbdigriz From menadeau at attbi.com Sun Apr 28 09:58:20 2002 From: menadeau at attbi.com (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC References: <200204280550.g3S5oFR14259@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <003d01c1eec5$23ab9560$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> The ironic thing about the article is that the author, Gregg Williams, left BYTE a few years later to work for Apple. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editor/Publisher Classic Tech, the Vintage Computing Resource www.classictechpub.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raymond Moyers" To: Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 1:50 AM Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC > > > For those interested > > http://www.nop.org/misc/pics/ibmpc > > Im one of those that still has many of his old mags > going back to the altair days. > > In the collection is the Jan 82 issue of Byte > this article is about the IBM PC, and perhaps > some may get a kick out of reading from > scans of these yellowed pages > > Raymond > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 10:23:38 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: Message-ID: <002701c1eec8$ac68be20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, the enhancements that finally found their way into to the Model 4 were available from third parties (with the possible exception of the display format and speedup) for the Model I. We offered our own versions in a design alternative done under contract to Tandy as a Model 3 design, in the very late '70's, but it cost them $5 per unit more than the lowest-cost alternative, so they rejected it. They paid for the work but didn't use it. It's too bad it took them so long to realize that having two operating systems available rather than just one would help their sales rather than hurting them, and that a conventional display made a lot of sense, and that having the slowest computer on the market might be hurting their competitive position. By the time the M4 came out, most of the Z80 systems people wanted were running in the 6-8 MHz range and cost considerably less than the M4. Tandy management was just not able to keep pace. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: Re: expansion differences (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > > said was that the basic unit wasn't much more than a toy, since the EI and > > disk drives didn't come out until some time after the TRS-80 became avaiable. > > The Radio Shack experience was pretty much the first one of its kind, i.e. > > they put out what they thought met their "most likely to sell" criteria, > > though they were pretty wrong about the concept in several respects, all > > associated with packaging. They figure that out and fixed most of the > > problems in the Model 3. They didn't fix all the problems, of course, such as > > that inane display format and the slow cpu, but, they got the packaging > > somewhat better. > > The Model 4 did fix the display format (80*24), the CPU speed (IIRC it > could run the CPU at 4MHz) and it even let you switch out the ROMs to > have a 'RAM-only' memory map to run CP/M. Of course it was rather too late. > > Actaully I prefered display dimensions being nice round numbers like 16 > and 64. I could never really understand the reasoning behind 80*24 > (except that it was a 'standard'). > > > > > I really can't see why you claim the Apple ][ was designed as a computer > > > and the TRS-80 (say) was not. > > > > > The obvious distinction is in that the Apple ][ was intended to be expanded > > with cards you could buy. Like the other "toy" vendors, which came along > > Err, and the CoCo (which is the TRS-80 which started this discussion -- > please don't arbitrarly move to a different machine!) was intended to be > expanded by cartridges you could buy (like the disk controller, RS232, > speech/sound, etc). > > > > somewhat later, RS figured you should buy expansion hardware exclusively from > > them, so they didn't provide a generalized expansion interface, but, rather, > > Eh? the CoCo expansion slot was the 6809 bus. Like the Apple slots were > the 6502 bus. Both machines had a slot pinout, etc, that was designed for > that machine, and both manufacturers would probably have liked it if > you'd bought all your add-ons from them. But none-the-less both > manufacturers did tell you the pinout and signal specs so you (or any 3rd > party company) could make add-ons if you wanted to. > > I really can't see the difference between the CoCo and Apple ][ in this > respect. > > > > > Apart from pre-packaged business systems, very few micros came with word > > > processing software. It was always an optional extra. > > > > > Yes, but if, by way of comparison, you bought an Ampro "Little Board" which > > only preceeded the CoCo by a few months (?), you had your choice of several, > > Sure, but none of them were free (AFAIK). Wordstar was not cheap back then... > > And the CoCo did have software available essentially when it came out > (or at least _very_ shortly afterwards). And it wasn;t that expensive either. > > > > So, you needed to buy the Little Board, a serial terminal, at least one > > > disk drive (I can't believe $200 included the drive), and probably a PSU > > > and a case. And then get it all working. Fine if you knew what you were > > > doing. Not so good if you were starting out. > > > > > > And presumably using Modem7 to transfer programs from 8" disks (the > > > _only_ standard CP/M format) to the Little Board implied you had another > > > CP/M computer with 8" drives. You know, this is starting to sound expensive. > > > > > Well, if you bought a new terminal, it meant an outlay by 1983 of somewhere on > > the order of $550. If you got one second-hand, $100 might do it. If you > > Exactly. Rather more than a CoCo. > > In other words, if you had the money there were better machines than the > CoCo. Nobody disputes that. But I would guess that getting a Little Board > system up and running using entirely new parts (Little Board, Terminal, > Drives, Case, PSU, etc) would cost around $1000. The CoCo was under half > that. Yes, by the time you'd added drives, monitor (rather than using > your existing TV), etc to the CoCo you'd probably spent as much. But you > could spend the money a bit at a time and have something that was useful > along the way. And of course in the end you did have a multi-tasking > computer with a much nicer processor than the Z80. > > > > > > > Sorry, I have to disagree with you there. Many of my computers don't even > > > have any form of video output. The think I look for when choosing a > > > computer is the _processor_ and _OS_. > > > > > I've long (very long) considered a display of fewer than 24 lines of 80 > > characters pretty useless. True, 80 column lines in pages of 24 date back to > > As I said, having used many systems with less video capability than that > for real work, I can't agree with you. > > > > Seems reasonable. But that's because the purpose of a Hi-Fi system is to > > > produce sound with minimal distortion, and most of the distortion comes > > > from the speakers. The purpose of a computer is not just to output video. > > > It's to do processing as well. > > > > > True, but it's got to tell what the outcome of your processing task was. > > Which, depending on the task could be done using a row of LEDs, a 7 > segment display, a printing terminal, or.... > > > > Well, if you're just starting out you have to get a lot right just to run > > > that monitor. All the bus connections correctly wired and no shorts. CPU > > > clock running. Memory map as you (and the monitor ROM) expect it. ROM > > > correctly programmed. I/O devices where the monitor expects them. And so on. > > > > > > None of this is impossible, or even that difficult. But for a first time > > > project there's a lot that can go wrong, and you might well then not know > > > how to look for the problem. If you started with a CoCo (or whatever) you > > > had a base machine that would work. If your device stopped the machine > > > from even starting up it was a fair bet you'd got a short between 2 bus > > > lines. If it didn't repsond to the right addresses, you'd mis-designed > > > the address decoder. And so on. It was a lot easier to get your first > > > hardware project working that way. > > > > > removing the CPU and using switches to set the addresses was an easy enough > > way to check whether a CPU communicated properly with an I/O decoder and the > > Oh, sure... I've done that many times. That's not the point... > > When you know what you are doing, there are plenty of ways of > fault-tracing using minimal equipment. But when you're starting out you > probably don't have the ability to work out things like that. Having > something to start from that you know works is a big step forward. Or at > least it was to me. > > This was one thing that was so nice about the BBC micro. It had an 8 bit > user port (half a 6522) and a 4 channel ADC built in. Now, we both know > how easy it is to link up a 6522 or an ADC chip to the 6502 bus. But I > can assue you that the fact that these interfaces were built-in on the > Beeb enocouraged a lot of users to link up relays and simple sensors, > etc. And to actually try some interface. They probably wouldn't have > bothered if they'd had to wire up the interface chip themselves first. > And they certainly wouldn't have tried making a computer from scratch. > > > I guess I consider it pretty simple because that's how I got my first computer > > working. I took a memory map from an existing architecture and, because I was > > Actually, I debugged my first homebrew like that as well. And used an LED > + resistor to monitor bus signals. From the brightness of the LED I could > estimate the mark-space ratio of the signal (and certainly spot lines > that were always high or low). > > I am not saying it can't be done. Just that few beginners are going to do it. > > Another data point. Look at all the projects on the internet that connect > to a PC printer port. Now, making an ISA card is almost trivial, and in > some cases it's actually more work to kludge the interface onto the > printer port than to make a special ISA card for it. But none the less, > people prefer to just plug into an external connector on an existing > computer. > > > > > resident ROM was handy, provided you could make it go away. > > > > > > You could. Look at the SAM data sheet. > > > > > I was hoping to avoid that ... > > I see, you (as usual) can't be bothered with facts.... > > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 10:29:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Murdering Classic machines (was: Re: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)")) References: Message-ID: <003301c1eec9$83aa5560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Stop complaining. I've offered these to list-followers at no cost above the shipping, yet only one person's taken me up on that offer. Clearly, you guys don't want the things. They're just so much hardware, not a litter of puppies. I've got sense enough not to let my mongrel bitch out to roam when she's in season, which happens to be the case right now, so I won't have this sort of problem with puppies. I find that buying an Apple][ or IIe, which have very similar PSU's, for the purpose of recycling the PSU is worth the $3 or so that the computer costs. I've got more 4116's than I ever wanted or needed, and I don't use the old 1 MHz 6502 any more, though I have plenty. Why should I clutter up my basement with hardware not even you guys want? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Finnegan" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Murdering Classic machines (was: Re: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)")) > Can someone PLEASE turn down Dick's flame control? Or at least send him a > SIGHUP? > > Thanks. > > -- Pat > > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > While that offers an attractive option, aside from the monitors, which are > > heavy, and the printers, which seldom work, I've found few Apple]['s with the > > PSU still in place down in the pit. > > > > It will work better now that the weather's more pleasant, because I'll be able > > to toss 'em in the dumpster and bring only the PSU in the house. > > > > Dick > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 28 10:35:49 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics In-Reply-To: <3CCAF15F.3090309@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > P.S. Even those who disagree vehemently with Stallman respect his > integrity, even if it's hard for some of them to understand his > arguments (Not his fault, they include concepts difficult for some to > grasp, which may be a blessing, all things considered, when you think > about it.) You can't say he hasn't put his money where his mouth is. I don't believe that anyone who works with any unix fails to recognise & respect Stallman's work, or his personal integrity. That includes me. I have read his manifesto, I've read many of his interviews and editorials, and of course I've read the General Public License. I disagree with one single contention - his insistence that Linux should be named after his brainchild. The notion that disagreement with the RMS party line denotes a failure to understand Stallman's arguments, and the principles behind them, doesn't follow. The vehemence of your replies, your over-generalization of my remarks and my viewpoint, and your implication that anyone who disagrees with Richard M. Stallman simply can't grasp his concepts, are together a perfect demonstration of what I find distasteful in GNU bigotry. The "GNU Movement" has become a cult. Its members are unable to abide any view of its goals or its leader that doesn't hew strictly to the party line. To raise any question or objection to _any_ of RMS's views, actions, or demands, invites accusations of ingratitude and/or ignorance, at the very least. In other words, in action if not in principle, the GNU model is "Freedom of Information", but _not_ "Freedom of Opinion". Once again, "Bah!" Doc From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 10:43:24 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") References: Message-ID: <003701c1eecb$6ed66280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm primarily in the business of proving conceptual designs can be made workable. To do this, I usemultiple SBC's and various ways of communicating between or monitoring them in order to measure and control the progress of the tasks without interfering with their progress. I've found it's easier to set up a single PSU with its switch and a dedicated reset button for each SBC rather than wiring up a complicated harness for each installation. That way I can focus on the complexity of the task and won't have to worry about the complexity of the power distribution harness. Unlike many small PSU's, the Apple][/IIe PSU has the four voltages I'm likely to use, AND it costs about $3-5 to get one in functional condition. I keep a small meter with me so I can make certain it works when I'm out "Thrift Shopping" so I can measure the outputs. I suppose I could ask the guy in the store whether he'd sell just the PSU for $1 and take the $1 off the price of the Apple ... I'm not confident they'd go for that, however. Comparable PSU's cost $15-$25 on the used/surplus market, so they keep me happy. These apples are not harmed in any way. If you want one for parts or a spare, or whatever, let me know and they're yours in whatever number you want, up to what I've got, of course, for the cost of freight. Some of 'em are in really good shape. It's a shame, I know, to waste 'em, but otherwise they, and their PSU's end up in the dumpster at the thrift store, and they don't let me raid that. Anyone who wants to "rescue" a PSU-less Apple ][ or IIe should contact me off list from time to time. I'll package 'em for you but you've got to pay the freight (via USPS) up front. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Power Cords (Was: RE: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format)") > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > While that offers an attractive option, aside from the monitors, which > > are heavy, and the printers, which seldom work, I've found few > > Apple]['s with the PSU still in place down in the pit. > > > > It will work better now that the weather's more pleasant, because I'll > > be able to toss 'em in the dumpster and bring only the PSU in the > > house. > > What exactly do you need that many PSUs for anyway? > > I would think that I'm not the only one here on the list who is stating to > feel offended by your bragging about butchering and dumping perfectly good > systems. If you are going to continue to scrap Apple gear, thats your > choice, just don't talk about it here. > > -Toth > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 28 10:56:56 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) In-Reply-To: <3CCBEE8F.80904@aconit.org> from Hans B Pufal at "Apr 28, 2 02:43:59 pm" Message-ID: <200204281556.IAA15418@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Awp/BI > > where A is area in square meters, w is weight in kg, p = power in Watts, > B is total storage in bits, and I is instructions per second Hmm -- directly proportional to size and power consumption, and inversely to speed, and what do you mean by total storage in bits? Would a C64 then have a B of 65536 * 8? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Apathetic dyslexic agnostic: "I don't care if there's a dog" --------------- From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Sun Apr 28 11:06:47 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Sun help needed... [was: RE: open "dumpster" event in New Hav en, CT] Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146788F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > > try to describe the scsi bus and termination. > > > > do a probe-scsi and a probe-scsi-all... > > > > > > > > let me know what that does. > > > > I'm pretty sure that there is a Sun screwup in the Ultra1 boot ROM such > > that "probe-scsi" doesn't work right when "auto-boot" is enabled. > > > > auto-boot?=false > > After turning off auto-boot you need to type 'reset' and hit return, this is > true on both Ultra 1's and 2's. If the auto-boot is already off, you still > need to do a 'reset' before doing teh probe-scsi/probe-scsi-all. > > Zane Well the RRD42, external CD worked. And I found out exactly why no CD drive worked internally... the plastic ribbon cable was tearing away! Oh well. Guess it's time to stick my CD-ROM in a SCSI case... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Ver. 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 11:00:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) References: <004701c1ec87$675ef120$e6f8b8ce@impac.com> <200204272325.g3RNPfXR069228@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <004301c1eecd$d636b360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The only systems I know of, today, that would cost $2k or more, even with "everything you'd want" on them, when bought with any sort of cleverness at all, are notebooks. Even so, a fully equipped 2.4GHz P4-equipped Winbook costs less than that with quite a few extras, and those aren't the most attractively priced notebooks around. I bought a Winbook because I read that it had survived a fall from a 2nd story balcony where it was being used on the railing (clearly not what I'd have done, but...) and was still running just fine having neither lost its place nor suffered any detectable damage in the wake, in spite of a few bounces. ( A fluke, fer-shurr, but given no other basis for comparison, I used durability as punctuated by this particular knothead writer's article.) The Winbook did surpass its competition that year in more reasonable tests of durability/survivability. I remember I gave several of my kids, relatives and colleagues 5x86/133-based computers in late '95, having paid just under $160 each for the motherboards complete with 16MB of RAM, with cases costing $21 each, keyboards with integral touch-pad mice, costing $33 each, 1.2GB WD drives, which I got for $66 each, though they survived on the average, less than 5 months before needing to be replaced under warranty, and a FDD costing $19. Each one had a 14.4KB FAX/Modem ( not much of a modem, but that wasn't so high a priority then as now.) costing $14.40 (sound like a marketing ploy?) That was about $360, to which the cost of a monitor and a printer had to be added. I doubt those would have cost more than a relative minimum of $400. That's not too bad, though. It's the only time I can remember feeling flush enough to be so generous, but they were a pretty good deal. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Period pricing references (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) > "Erik S. Klein" wrote: > > My first IBM PC (December 1981) cost nearly $2,800 for a 64K machine, 1 SSDD > > floppy (120K with DOS 1.0) and a color card with an RF Modulator. > > Back in the early-to-mid 1990s some friends of mine and I were > comparing microcomputers we had over a roughly 15-year time span. Our > conclusion was that from 1976 'til then, it cost about US$3000 to buy > "the computer system you wanted", meaning what your computer system > eventually grew into. That usually included some sort of peripherals, > often bought after the initial purchase, and we were looking at an > IMSAI 8080, a couple TRS-80s (Model Is), an Apple ][+, an IBM PC/XT, > an Amiga 1000, and I'm not sure what else. > > I think at the time I was thinking my 486/33 desktop PC was below the > curve (at about $2000), but I bought it from someone who was closing > his computer store so got a pretty good deal. (BTW, I think it's > on-topic now, it's still in use as a dial-on-demand NAT router, and > it's been on 24x7 most of the last 10 years. Yes, you can blame me > for last year's power woes in California.) > > I'm not sure where things are today but I think prices have come down. > My last couple systems bought new for a purpose are notebook PCs, and > of course there's a premium associated with that. I'm thinking they > are something like $2500 and $2000, and the latter is an iBook that > hasn't cost me that much yet but probably will by the time I'm done > with it (I want to get it some more RAM, an Airport card, maybe a USB > stiffy drive). > > -Frank McConnell > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 28 11:09:10 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics In-Reply-To: from Doc at "Apr 28, 2 10:35:49 am" Message-ID: <200204281609.JAA16064@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The "GNU Movement" has become a cult. Its members are unable to abide any > view of its goals or its leader that doesn't hew strictly to the party > line. To raise any question or objection to _any_ of RMS's views, > actions, or demands, invites accusations of ingratitude and/or > ignorance, at the very least. I'll throw in with this. I get a lot of grief from the GNU crowd because the free software I release is under my own freeware license, not GPL (everyone else apparently couldn't care less). One particular pighead basically sent me a flame saying I was a moron when I tried to explain to him my issues with the GPL model and how I feel it doesn't adequately protect author rights. This is a wonderful way to talk a software author into changing his license terms. :-/ Heaven forbid GPL should be impeachable! The GNU movement has done a lot of good, but it is far from a panacea. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 11:16:25 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited References: Message-ID: <004f01c1eed0$0bb36900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> At that low voltage and low capacititance, I'd say you needn't worry about "reforming" the capacitors. Many of my commercial S-100 supplies put out over 12 volts, at no load, on the so-called +8V supply, and over 20 volts on the bipolar 16 volt supplies. They come down by 10% or more as they're loaded but none of them come down below 8 or 16 volts even when loaded somewhat beyond their specified current. It's nice to have the regulators dissipate as little power as possible, but it's also necessary to avoid ripple voltage "valleys" that drop below the 2.2-volt margin recommended by the regulator vendors. You can check the unregulated output of your filters by loading the supplies and measuring the output voltage in both DC and AC mode. The DC level will reject (averaging it out) the AC component. The AC reading will reject the DC. If the AC voltage is sufficient that it, when centered about (therefore subtracted from) the DC level is lower at its minimum than the required minimum input for your regulators, then you may have a problem. Adding/substituting a larger capacitor may help, but if there's no resistor between the cap and the diodes, it might be well to add one, to limit the current from the diodes to the cap at power-up. Knowing the rating of your diodes will help you decide whether this is desirable, and what value resistor is needed. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 9:07 PM Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited > I am putting my SWTPc 6800 back together, after complete disassembly > for cleaning. So, on to testing the power supply. > > It works! But here's the question, which I know has been discussed > before with respect to S-100 machines. > > The power supply is a big transformer with one really big (91,000 ufd) > capacitor, and the usual rectifier stuff, etc. The documents call for > 7-8 volts unregulated, along with + and - 12V. > > I am getting something like 9.3 V, and + and - 14.3 V. Are these > voltages too high? Of course, on the SS-50 and SS-30 cards there are > voltage regulators, but I don't want to cause any damage. This thing > probably hasn't been powered up in 25 years. > > How can I check the capacitor function without an oscilloscope or other > fancy equipment? Should I worry about "reforming" the capacitor? > > Thoughts appreciated. > > Louis > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Apr 27 11:45:47 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: Message-ID: <3CCAD5BB.37213F24@bluewin.ch> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > > > > > Impossible? How? > > > > > Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... > > There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to > > handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > > Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot air > gun... > There is more to handling than just soldering. How about the PCB itself ? Certainly not hobbyist grade... How about the costs involved ? the equipment ? Industrial prototyping, which is what you do, is NOT hobbyist electronics. I still stand by my opinion that handling the modern devices is beyond hobbyist means. Regards, JOS From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 28 12:04:14 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: Message-ID: <3CCC2B8E.4070102@dragonsweb.org> Doc wrote: > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, James B. DiGriz wrote: > >>P.S. Even those who disagree vehemently with Stallman respect his >>integrity, even if it's hard for some of them to understand his >>arguments (Not his fault, they include concepts difficult for some to >>grasp, which may be a blessing, all things considered, when you think >>about it.) You can't say he hasn't put his money where his mouth is. > > > I don't believe that anyone who works with any unix fails to recognise > & respect Stallman's work, or his personal integrity. That includes me. > I have read his manifesto, I've read many of his interviews and > editorials, and of course I've read the General Public License. I > disagree with one single contention - his insistence that Linux should > be named after his brainchild. > The notion that disagreement with the RMS party line denotes a failure > to understand Stallman's arguments, and the principles behind them, > doesn't follow. > > The vehemence of your replies, your over-generalization of my remarks > and my viewpoint, and your implication that anyone who disagrees with > Richard M. Stallman simply can't grasp his concepts, are together a > perfect demonstration of what I find distasteful in GNU bigotry. The > "GNU Movement" has become a cult. Its members are unable to abide any > view of its goals or its leader that doesn't hew strictly to the party > line. To raise any question or objection to _any_ of RMS's views, > actions, or demands, invites accusations of ingratitude and/or > ignorance, at the very least. > > In other words, in action if not in principle, the GNU model is > "Freedom of Information", but _not_ "Freedom of Opinion". Once again, > > "Bah!" > > Doc Nah, I understand that Stallman and the FSF are under constant probing for any sign of a capitulatory mood, for any sign of tolerance for being made irrelvant, since they are using IP against itself, and a lot of people stand to gain at everyone else's expense if they can crack that wall. That's the grounds for the GNU/linux controversy, and no doubt why he makes demands that are taken as overreaching to UG's that want him to speak. I don't envy his position. He has a point, too, even if you think it's overblown. Enough so that a lot of people would prefer that it be kept between the lines. Kinda hard to do that when people single you out for public comments about your personal hygiene. A lot of people *don't*, or maybe don't want to understand all this and see any intransigence that can be portrayed as irrelevant or anti-social in some way as a sign of compulsive, fascistic, control-freak tendencies and ego problems. There are people in the open-source movement even who think open-source (what Stallman calls "free software") should just mean giving code away, period, with no restrictions. In an ideal world, that might work. In the real world, this just allows free code to come under proprietary claims, exploiting the work of countless benefactors against their wishes. So you're working at cross-purposes. I'm the last thing from a bigot, Chief, and I've paid the price to say that. And I call it Linux, too, while recognizing, as was pointed out, that in the case of Debian, GNU/Linux is indeed more correct on technical grouds. jbdigriz From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Apr 28 12:06:43 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <3CCAD5BB.37213F24@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Impossible? How? > > > > > > > Open any GSM phone and look at the components.... > > > There is NO WAY a hobbyist (not even Tony ( sorry chap !)) will be able to > > > handle 200-300 pin BGA packages, with 0.8 or even 0.5mm pitch. > > > > Nonsense! I do 388 pin BGAs for protos all the time with nothing but a hot air > > gun... > > > > There is more to handling than just soldering. > How about the PCB itself ? Certainly not hobbyist grade... > How about the costs involved ? the equipment ? Several PCB proto houses will do small 4 and 6 layer boards at hobbyist prices. Expenditure for hot air gun: $59.00... > > Industrial prototyping, which is what you do, is NOT hobbyist electronics. > I still stand by my opinion that handling the modern devices is beyond hobbyist > means. > > > > Regards, JOS > > I think any determined electronic hobbyist could handle a BGA proto... Peter Wallace From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Apr 28 12:17:29 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <200204281609.JAA16064@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3CCC2EA9.1010300@dragonsweb.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>The "GNU Movement" has become a cult. Its members are unable to abide any >>view of its goals or its leader that doesn't hew strictly to the party >>line. To raise any question or objection to _any_ of RMS's views, >>actions, or demands, invites accusations of ingratitude and/or >>ignorance, at the very least. > > > I'll throw in with this. I get a lot of grief from the GNU crowd because the > free software I release is under my own freeware license, not GPL (everyone > else apparently couldn't care less). One particular pighead basically sent me > a flame saying I was a moron when I tried to explain to him my issues with the > GPL model and how I feel it doesn't adequately protect author rights. This is > a wonderful way to talk a software author into changing his license terms. :-/ You are perfectly free to specify whatever license terms you wish. How enforceable they are is another matter. That is a big sword hanging over all open-source licenses. > Heaven forbid GPL should be impeachable! This is in fact a point of major concern, for those who worry about such things. > The GNU movement has done a lot of good, but it is far from a panacea. > Closest we'll ever see. jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 12:18:20 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher References: <20020428054936.WCJP962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <006b01c1eed8$b23d6840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You, 'bear,' need to go back and reread what you've previously written. The 25MHz NEAT clone I bought in '89 was a '286, which, as I explained, was chosen because it was slightly faster than the much more costly '386's of the time, but cost MUCH less. It was, by the way, acquired through an ad in the Computer Shopper, which I followed closely when I was shopping for a "deal" since they didn't have an eBay yet. I often found decent prices in Computer Shopper, and seldom even bothered to read BYTE, which Will Jennings, who got the old BYTE and other mags from my basement, will support, since I didn't read it much after '83-'84 by which time the articles were mainly unpaid advertising for one product or another and the prices from their advertisers reflected the high cost of the ads. more below ... If you've got a format at which everyone has arrived after much discussion, I'd like to be informed as to what it is, provided that everyone else is in agreement. I've seen several versions, and tried them all. They seem, all of them, to illicit about the same amount of complaint. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:47 PM Subject: BS al a Erlacher > > From: r. 'bear' stricklin > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but > didn't get > > > one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) > with 8 > > > MB RAM and a pair of 700 MB ESDI drives for $1080. That was with a > 1kx768x16 > > > VGA display board. I hacked it to work with a fixed-frequency > (sync-on-green) > > > monitor I had sitting around. It was WONDERFUL. That was in early > '89. > > ['bear' replied:] > > > This struck me as being blatantly wrong, since it seemed to me (if I > > recalled) that in early 1989 your 8 MB of RAM would've run nearly $1k by > > itself. > > > So I checked the January 1990 issue of "Byte". These are directly from > the > > cheap ads at the back, and representative of prices a year (loosely) > > after your conjectured purchase date: > Ads from sellers willing to advertise in BYTE were seldom "cheap" enough to be interesting. If you bought from those vendors, you got what you deserved, as is borne out by the prices you've listed. > [snip prices] > > > I admit some margin of error is to be expected, but these > prices---sampled > > fully eight or nine months after your stated date---do not come close to > > corroborating your statements. In consideration of this, I must humbly > > submit that you are totally full of shit, or at the very least have made > > a grave typographical error. > > From my files, an invoice from 1990: > > 25 MHz 80386, motherboard, case, power supply, 4MB RAM, 1.44 MB FDD, 100MB READ IT AGAIN, only LOOK FOR a '286/25, which is what I bought. > HD, no i/o, no video, no modem I didn't list a modem either since I had external modems, and since they didn't matter much back then. > $1450, which is exactly in line with the prices you quoted. > > Ah, but we must remember that Richard buys Windows for $2. He never pays > what we have to pay, nor does he stoop to using bullshit systems like we do > (Apple, C64, Unix, Amiga). > and it was their COST, among other things, that led me to avoid them. You could buy cheap software too, if you were willing to get out there and look. > > Richard Erlacher is simply a troll. Or an Alzheimer's victim. Or both. > Yes, he has some "stuff" which he will sometimes share, but it's hardly > worth the amount of crap we put up with here, not to mention that his > crappy posts are deliberately formatted in a way which most classiccmpers > find hard to read. > Now, if you'd tell me PRECISELY how to format my posts to meet the spec's for this list, I'd happily conform. The reason I got onto this list was that I wanted to give away a bunch of hardware to anyone who was willing to pay the cost of getting it shipped. I needed the space. I had lots of folks willing to let me pack it (ALL of it, no preferences for anything) at my expense and ship it to them on the off-chance they'd be willing to reimburse me for my costs. One guy, Sellam Ismail, even wanted me to palletize it for him and haul it to the shipper of his choice, some 40 miles away. Later, when I agreed to purchase a 2-box Altos computer system for him for just a few bucks, he backed out of the deal after I'd laid out the dough. That convinced me that dealing with him in any way was a bad idea. I ended up giving those two boxes to Will Jennings just to get 'em out of here, but not until after I had discarded the vast majority of what I was offering. I'm not a collector, and I have little use for hardware that can't do useful work other machines I have can't do, or at least can't do more conveniently. There are a very few exceptions. I've gotten considerable amusement, some useful information, and even a little hardware/software that was of considerable value from my 3-4 years hanging on this list. I can't explain why I remember things that you, 'bear,' don't, except perhaps in that I had the information and you didn't. I don't always read the posts on the list as thoroughly and completely as I should, before reacting, and it's clear I'm not alone in that. > > > As for the rest of you honking geese > > Just a minute here! Some of my best friends are geese! > > http://members.aol.com/gusggoose > > Glen > 0/0 > > From pat at purdueriots.com Sun Apr 28 12:08:19 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: <000501c1eec0$f2482370$62eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if anyone knew if > > a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? My next step is > > to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... > > Yes, it's called MP/M-86: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21I.ZIP > Cool. Next question: is there any software for MSDOS or Linux (preferably that I don't need to pay for) that will read/write CP/M-86 (1) hard disk partitions or (2) 1.44M floppies. I've noticed 22DSK doesn't support much more than 5-1/4" floppies. -- Pat From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Apr 28 12:34:56 2002 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: scans of M8164 (MK11) engineering drawings Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020428123456.00a1b100@ubanproductions.com> I have an MK11 printset, but it has an M8159 schematic which has been superceeded by the M8164 board (which I have). I don't have a schematic for the M8164 board, which I presume is different than the M8159. So, I am looking for scans of the M8164 board schematics... Also, if someone has schematics for the M8728-AC/AF board that would be nice to have as well. --tnx --tom From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 28 12:46:54 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:17 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <001001c1eedc$db86e0b0$51f19a8d@ajp166> From: Jos Dreesen >Industrial prototyping, which is what you do, is NOT hobbyist electronics. >I still stand by my opinion that handling the modern devices is beyond hobbyist >means. Ok, so you say. I just got done building two 50mhz frequency counters using SMT parts. The board is 1.8x2.1 inches and the display is 4 digit module with .375" 7 segment leds. The assembly includes 6 transistors (SOT) and a 74HC4017 (SMT) plus the Amtel (20pin dip) micro and associated chip resistors, caps and diodes. The resistors were the large 1206 (.11x.06") parts. There were a total of 5 through hole parts if you count the crystal and display. With a low power magnifier, standard weller 3/64" tip, .022 silver bearing solder, and a pair of #3 tweezers it went together quite fast. The last time I built an equivelent frequency counter it was 4 74192, 2x74273, 4x7447, 4x man3a leds, 2x74390, 2x 7400 plus all the caps, resistors and transistors and if didn't fit on a 2x2" board or only draw 60mA! At that time (1984) that cost me nearly 40$ in chips alone and I had to make the board. If anything, for those willing to adapt I'd say there are possibilities available now that never were. Lets face it, back in say '84 the thought of using a micro for a trivial task was sorta over the top, they weren't all that cheap or all that flexible. Now with basic stamps, PICs, amtel and the like a really good selection of flash rom parts at attractive prices and fast enough to do serious tasks or cheap enough to do dumb thing like PC keyboard to serial or parallel ascii. One of the things going on in the ham (amateur radio) community is packing PICs, DDS and a simple transceiver in an altoids tin (3.5x.75x2.25"). Oh and people still build boat anchors too. Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 28 13:31:54 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules In-Reply-To: <200204280502.g3S52DY14152@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > On Saturday 27 April 2002 16:28, you wrote: > > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > > > > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > > terms over the network etc etc. > > > > Ow! You're killing me! > > Actually, its sort of unexpected that you havent been > pointed to this project or found this on your own. Dude. Fire up your favorite Open Source browser. Go to http://www.google.com Do a search for this (quotation marks included): "Teach Grandpa to suck eggs" Doc From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Apr 28 14:05:31 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > > > > On Saturday 27 April 2002 16:28, you wrote: > > > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > > > > > > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > > > terms over the network etc etc. > > > > > > Ow! You're killing me! > > > > Actually, its sort of unexpected that you havent been > > pointed to this project or found this on your own. > > Dude. > Fire up your favorite Open Source browser. Go to > http://www.google.com > Do a search for this (quotation marks included): > > "Teach Grandpa to suck eggs" > > > Doc > > BTW Google doesn't find the quoted string... I'd never heard that expression so I got curious and looked it up. www.suckeggs.com is a good reference... Peter Wallace From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 28 14:39:51 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > Dude. > > Fire up your favorite Open Source browser. Go to > > http://www.google.com > > Do a search for this (quotation marks included): > > > > "Teach Grandpa to suck eggs" > > > > > > Doc > > > > > > BTW Google doesn't find the quoted string... > > I'd never heard that expression so I got curious and looked it up. Argh. Once again, what I thought was a universal expression turns out to be a Texasism. I was 35 when I found that the entire English-speaking world doesn't "put stuff up" (put stuff away). "teaching Grandpa [or Grandma] to suck eggs" is analogous to explaining long division to a physicist. Or to explaining S/390 technology to Sridhar.... Doc From pat at purdueriots.com Sun Apr 28 14:34:37 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: <000501c1eec0$f2482370$62eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if anyone knew if > > a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? My next step is > > to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... > > Yes, it's called MP/M-86: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21I.ZIP > > or > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21E.ZIP > > hth, > -dq OK, now how do I make a bootable copy of this? From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 28 15:03:53 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: (crystals) Re: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <001001c1eedc$db86e0b0$51f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000b01c1eeef$d31be660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I don't do much DIY myself, but I have plenty of respect for those that do. I get into it from time to time. Recently I came across some good sites for rs232 via PIC. For the low end PIC a good stable crystal oscillator is necessary for comm work. Could someone point out a catalog/website that gives good complete solutions? (IE the crystal needs some support components which I have no clue). Apparently two crystals of equal spec from different manufacturers will require diff. support, so... help. thanks. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 13:41:44 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020428010042.0081c120@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe" at Apr 28, 2 01:00:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1331 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020428/41e87837/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 13:24:36 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Questions about a donation In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 27, 2 05:42:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 667 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020428/1ac40b01/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 13:36:00 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Old Power Supplies, revisited In-Reply-To: from "Louis Schulman" at Apr 27, 2 11:07:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020428/114b7045/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 28 15:16:15 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules References: Message-ID: <3CCC588F.1CED75E6@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc wrote: > "teaching Grandpa [or Grandma] to suck eggs" is analogous to > explaining long division to a physicist. > Or to explaining S/390 technology to Sridhar.... Explaining it !? I thought he develped it. :) From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 28 15:39:02 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher References: <20020428054936.WCJP962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <006b01c1eed8$b23d6840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002b01c1eef4$bc0ec500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I'll just say now that I haven't read all the threads referred to, nor will I. But given the relative reputations of those involved, I know who I'm siding with, and that's too bad, in the sense that some of the things that might have been said were of value. I know what value I give Dicks statements. 80% of them are on electronics construction, and I have respect for those. But Dick really should learn which things he excells at and which he doesn't. A well phrased rant is still just a rant, only it wastes more of peoples time, who care to read it, than a succinct one. I have a sneaking suspicion that the added grammar really doesn't add much to the value of the post at all. John A. OH, that's what B.S. is! From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Apr 28 15:49:46 2002 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (John Chris Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: FW: Free chips to good home (gone!) Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who showed interest (which was a lot more than I expected). The chips have found new homes, and will be winging their way their Monday. Based on the replies, I guess I should have put them on eBay with "L@@K!" "RARE!", and made my retirement money. This is actually something that really gets me wound up. These people gut an old XT, and list every chip they can yank off the board as "RARE!". So it has gold flashed pins. So what? It's ceramic? So what? A 27C128 is not "L@@K RARE!". And there are a couple of particular offenders. I've though about writing a CGI script that trolls for that, and automatically sends an e-mail every day to the effect of "Hi! You're an idiot, and couldn't recognize a RARE! chip if it bit you on the ass. Please stop polluting eBay with your useless crap that you can't even identify. How can I tell? Because you put RARE! and a part number, and no part description what so ever. Moron". --John > I've got some chips sitting around that may (or may not) interest the > classiccmp'ers. > > 2 MC68010LC10 (10Mhz "aircraft carrier" (DIP-64) 68010s) > 1 MC68010R10 (10Mhz PGA 68010) > 4 AT&T DSP-16a > 2 Acorn chip sets (VL86C010 + VL86C410 + VL86C110) > 1 AMD 9511D (DIP Arithimetic Co-processor) > 4 COM9046 (SMC voice scramblers) From fernande at internet1.net Sun Apr 28 16:13:03 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Free Plus shipping Message-ID: <3CCC65DF.2060904@internet1.net> -Solid State Fisher Model 440-T receiver, not working correctly, but probably fixable, has all parts, not in the best of shape, but could be made functional. -DEC M7639 -DEC M7622-BT 8 megs, not 16 -DEC M7621-AP Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 28 16:44:11 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: (crystals) Re: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. Message-ID: <003d01c1eefe$70e69cb0$51f19a8d@ajp166> From: John Allain >Could someone point out a catalog/website that gives good complete >solutions? (IE the crystal needs some support components which I have >no clue). Apparently two crystals of equal spec from different >manufacturers will require diff. support, so... help. thanks. The most direct place to go is the PIC chip vendor. They will specify the crystal and related componenets. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 16:00:43 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: (crystals) Re: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. In-Reply-To: <000b01c1eeef$d31be660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Apr 28, 2 04:03:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1952 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020428/f0f50def/attachment.ksh From rmoyers at nop.org Sun Apr 28 17:19:40 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC In-Reply-To: <3CCC0397.8060509@dragonsweb.org> References: <200204280550.g3S5oFR14259@Fubar.nop.org> <3CCC0397.8060509@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <200204282219.g3SMJjG16510@Fubar.nop.org> On Sunday 28 April 2002 09:13, you wrote: > Raymond Moyers wrote: > > http://www.nop.org/misc/pics/ibmpc > Why? I didn't get a kick out of it then. Well, part of the discussion here was about cost and the article has a price table comparing with machines like the model 4 I made no inference about merit. Indeed, the x86 chip started as a controler for a cad terminal, and ss100 had plenty life in it, esp with the opening it gave for others to make cards, like the then common practice of stuffing several single board computers into a single ss100 chassis to get multiuser into one box. the x86 line had everyting to bitch about, it was register starved and GP regs that wasnt really GP Linux is making computing CPU agnostic however and with a system that runs on anything, all that matters for the hardware is price/performace. In this new climate, perhaps the dark/ice age of winblows dumbing down mankind will abate. Raymond From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Apr 28 17:54:54 2002 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Free chips to good home (gone!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c1ef07$b6647150$6e7ba8c0@piii933> I kinda liked the guy that had all of the "ventage" chips on auction a couple of weeks ago. Or should I say "VENTAGE!" Erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Chris Wren Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 1:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: FW: Free chips to good home (gone!) Thanks to everyone who showed interest (which was a lot more than I expected). The chips have found new homes, and will be winging their way their Monday. Based on the replies, I guess I should have put them on eBay with "L@@K!" "RARE!", and made my retirement money. This is actually something that really gets me wound up. These people gut an old XT, and list every chip they can yank off the board as "RARE!". So it has gold flashed pins. So what? It's ceramic? So what? A 27C128 is not "L@@K RARE!". And there are a couple of particular offenders. I've though about writing a CGI script that trolls for that, and automatically sends an e-mail every day to the effect of "Hi! You're an idiot, and couldn't recognize a RARE! chip if it bit you on the ass. Please stop polluting eBay with your useless crap that you can't even identify. How can I tell? Because you put RARE! and a part number, and no part description what so ever. Moron". --John > I've got some chips sitting around that may (or may not) interest the > classiccmp'ers. > > 2 MC68010LC10 (10Mhz "aircraft carrier" (DIP-64) 68010s) > 1 MC68010R10 (10Mhz PGA 68010) > 4 AT&T DSP-16a > 2 Acorn chip sets (VL86C010 + VL86C410 + VL86C110) > 1 AMD 9511D (DIP Arithimetic Co-processor) > 4 COM9046 (SMC voice scramblers) From r.stek at snet.net Sun Apr 28 18:36:05 2002 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Serendipity Message-ID: <001701c1ef0d$7a5245b0$6501a8c0@mycroft1> Doug - You asked about Lee Felsenstein turning the intelligent terminal into a computer. From an article he wrote in 1977, (found on Jim Battle's Sol site) he stated that they were requested to design an inteligent terminal for Popular Electronics. He had already designed the VDM board and wanted to use it for his so-called Tom Swift terminal. He and Bob Marsh worked out designs and Bob's used an 8080 whereas his did not. They eventually realized that they had a whole computer, but downplayed that until after the article was published. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020428/9b1c23fb/winmail.bin From rmoyers at nop.org Sun Apr 28 19:12:55 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <200204290012.g3T0Ctw16732@Fubar.nop.org> On Sunday 28 April 2002 13:06, you wrote: > > Actually, its sort of unexpected that you haven't been > > pointed to this project or found this on your own. > > I found it long before you did, I guarantee you. Some of the code in that > project was written by yours truly. Then why the feigned ignorance then ? and I feel some tugging at my lower extremities. In fact... hmmm afu:/data1/OS/herc/mirror/Mail-archive-html/hercules-390-2000-Q1-Q3# grep -l "nop.org" * 0058.html afu:/data1/OS/herc/mirror/Mail-archive-html/hercules-390-2000-Q1-Q3# grep -i "date" 0058.html Date: Wed Mar 01 2000 - 19:43:55 GMT Ya know, ive been on the Herc mail list for a while and ... afu:/data1/OS/herc/mirror/Mail-archive-html/hercules-390-2000-Q1-Q3# grep -l "ikickass.org" * grep: att-0581: Is a directory afu:/data1/OS/herc/mirror/Mail-archive-html/hercules-390-2000-Q1-Q3# cd ../ afu:/data1/OS/herc/mirror/Mail-archive-html# grep -sirl "ikickass.org" * You are not in my archives mirror at all I think you are blowin smoke up my Butt. > Come back when you know what you are talking about. And my error was where ? non-seq tosser too i see. > (BTW, from your previous argument, I was *on the team that ported Linux to > S/390 at Marist College* Linux was not ported at marist, it was a skunkworks project @ IBM itself ( with much work done @ IBM Germany) Marist had the first starter kits. http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/04/25/2151204&mode=nocomment&tid=23 At age 28, Boas Betzler is known at IBM as the "grandfather" of Linux on the mainframe. In mid-1998, he began a port of Linux to the IBM zSeries, and he's shepherded the Linux mainframe project from the beginning to the first shipments. In porting Linux to an IBM mainframe, Betzler went against the grain both internally at IBM, where many saw Linux as a competitor to IBM's own mainframe operating system, and among many analysts outside of IBM, who suggested the port wasn't possible without a huge investment. Betzler's "fun" project has helped IBM record double-digit revenue growth for the first time in more than a decade You are not talking out of your usual orifice it seems, or perhaps you are. Was: Error in Marist large filesystem: Library symlinks Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:20:24 -0600 From: Raymond Moyers To: Linux on VM Port Hmm seems ive deleted some of my older posts grr, o well they have a list archive too, and im in it, been on that list from near day one ... i dont seem to recall you there either. You are not talking out of your usual orifice it seems, or perhaps you are. you sound as if you had been locked in a glass house with an old 360/67 for 20 years and suddenly came out and spent the last day or so cramming for your last post. Common man, it isnt my aim to get in no pecker fight here, its just the exchange of experience projects and ideas, so why go to an extent of putting your integrity in question. bad move imo. > -- Linux is *not* the best thing to happen to mainframes. IBM sales sure says otherwise, it has reversed a downward trend in sales in market conditions where the field elsewhere is not climbing. IBM gives direct credit to Linux on the 390 for this. > I know the capabilities of the hardware, I know the capabilities of the > OS, and I know that the OS is not the best choice for the hardware > in most cases). Unix given a persona, being more GP than anything before seen on earth, would not claim to be "best" at anything. it would claim provably beyond all doubt, running on devices from wristwatch ( demoed by IBM ) to the mainframe, that it is good at more things than any other system can claim. Linux on the s390 bare metal would sure be incomplete, it dont have all the support from all the user written tools dealing with the specifics of that hardware, it still really needs VM under it to fill in it functional gaps. Thats the argument you could have made, so why am i the one making it. ( i dont see that condition existing forever tho, VM was no utilitarian cornacopia on the hacked 360/40 it was born on either, even VM370r6 cant run XEDIT because the full screen support is missing, but hey, VM got better and so will linux390) This last post from you was in the flavor that it seems you think i was attacking you or something, relax man, that isnt the case. Leftist moonies always translate disagreement with them into personal attacks, they call you racist, or go into their shout you down mode or .. Is that what this is ? Raymond ------------------------------------------------------- From pat at purdueriots.com Sun Apr 28 19:06:23 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: <000501c1eec0$f2482370$62eeffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if anyone knew if > > a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? My next step is > > to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... > > Yes, it's called MP/M-86: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21I.ZIP > > or > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/MPM86-21E.ZIP > Those two files actually seem to be the same... Is there any distribution that will fit properly onto a 320K floppy? I've managed to get 22disk to copy to a 5-1/4" floppy, but can't find anything to copy to a disk bigger than that. From vance at ikickass.org Sun Apr 28 20:13:36 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules In-Reply-To: <3CCC588F.1CED75E6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > "teaching Grandpa [or Grandma] to suck eggs" is analogous to > > explaining long division to a physicist. > > Or to explaining S/390 technology to Sridhar.... > Explaining it !? I thought he develped it. :) Before my time. 8-) But I did grow up with it. I got my first account on a mainframe in December 1982. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sun Apr 28 20:31:03 2002 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: <002b01c1eef4$bc0ec500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3CCCBE77.25983.1D73D8ED@localhost> > OH, that's what B.S. is! Well, what's B.S. ? Binary Substitute ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhfinepw4z at compsys.to Sun Apr 28 21:58:24 2002 From: jhfinepw4z at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11) References: <20020426202911.90929.qmail@web10305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3CCCB6D0.6ABF62CC@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Carl Lowenstein wrote: > > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > I have an RKV11D... > I also happen to have an RK11C, but in 18 years, I have never managed > to hook it up and power it on. Got the prints, got spares, got drives, > etc. Don't got enough time. :-( Jerome Fine replies: I have an RK05 drive - probably working, but no Qbus controller. I also don't have enough time, but before I have to weed the patch of old PDP-11 Qbus systems (I don't have any Unibus systems since they are just too heavy), I want to transfer a number of old RT-11 distributions to a hard disk drive and then to a CD. > > The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus interface. > > Sort of a built-in Qniverter. > That makes sense. The handle numbers on the boards in the controller > enclosure match the RK11D, so I figured that was what was going on. So DEC actually made a Qbus compatible controller for the RK05? > Looks like a 16-bit bus extender paddle card for the Qbus end, plus > a strange bus interface in the controller box. That long ago, DEC did many strange things. > > Unfortunately the designers skimped on the extended address bits, > > so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space. > Not surprising. That seriously limits what I can do with it. If necessary, you could add a bounce buffer to the device driver to take care of the problem. I did this with the DYX.SYS driver - worked very well. > I may try to resurrect the 11/03 that this RKV11D came with, but I'd > be limited in what I could do with RT-11 at that point. Will Kermit-11 > work for me if I only have 56KB of RAM? Is it possible to run a KDF11 > CPU in a 16-bit-address environment? All I really want to do is make > physical backups of disk packs, etc., and get them to a CD burner. It is also possible to run a KDJ11 system with just 56 KBytes of RAM! And with the KDJ11, it is usually possible (normally there are actually 64 KBytes of RAM, but the IOPAGE takes away 8 KBytes) if you have the correct memory boards (like the M8044s) to reduce the IOPAGE to 4 KBytes and then have 60 KBytes of memory. As for running with RT11FB (or even RT11SJ which slows things down too much), RT-11 will run Kermit very well in a 56 KByte memory space. If you can copy the files to a SCSI hard drive, then the second stage is a CD. > > I think that hardware hacks to add two address bits to make the RKV11 > > compatible with the RK!1 have been published, but I don't remember where. > Ooh! I'd love to see it. I _do_ have some 22-bit bus extender cards/ > cables (from a dual BA23 uVAX system)... so if the BC08 cables are > wired the same, I might be able to forego modding the Qbus end. Any idea where that might be. I don't know if this request is reasonable, but anyone who can loan me a Qbus RK05 controller can have the RK05 drive after I copy the RK05 files to a SCSI hard drive. They can have the RK05 packs as well. Anyone want to consider this - or else just a loan of the Qbus controller? I have a number of old RT-11 distributions that I want to copy to a CD and make available to RT-11 hobby users. Since they are all prior to V5.03 of RT-11, they can be made available under the same terms as the present V5.03 distribution of RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 28 22:30:51 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher References: <20020428054936.WCJP962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <006b01c1eed8$b23d6840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002b01c1eef4$bc0ec500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and can't write and spell. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 2:39 PM Subject: Re: BS al a Erlacher > I'll just say now that I haven't read all the threads referred to, nor will > I. > But given the relative reputations of those involved, I know who I'm > siding with, and that's too bad, in the sense that some of the things > that might have been said were of value. I know what value I give Dicks > statements. 80% of them are on electronics construction, and I have > respect for those. But Dick really should learn which things he excells > at and which he doesn't. > A well phrased rant is still just a rant, only it wastes more of peoples > time, > who care to read it, than a succinct one. > I have a sneaking suspicion that the added grammar really doesn't add > much to the value of the post at all. > > John A. > OH, that's what B.S. is! > > > From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 29 00:05:51 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <20020428054936.WCJP962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <002b01c1eef4$bc0ec500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200204290505.g3T55u717474@Fubar.nop.org> On Sunday 28 April 2002 22:30, you wrote: > Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and can't write > and spell. If ones talent as a Wordsmith was everything. Then people like Peter Singer, Princeton's DeCamp Professor in the University Center for Human Values ( disgusting leftist that advocates killing the aged and sex with animals) heralded in a recent interview with the New Yorker as the "greatest living philosopher," Well i think ill switch from Singer to Einstien Einstien was no wordsmith, neither where many other creators who we owe our modern existence. The illuminati however, put forth ideas and policy that created pain suffering and mass murder the likes never before seen. I will take good content over form of delivery anyday. Most of the best writing is shit with pretty and artisic frosting. Raymond From pat at purdueriots.com Sun Apr 28 23:56:10 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Since I haven't seen anyone ask this yet, I'll bite: Dick, do you actually have any interest in old machines or are you just trolling the list? All of the messages I've read from you lately strongly imply that you have no real interest toying with or using the systems we normally talk about on this list. I'm not trying to start a war, I'm just trying to ask an honest question (and perhaps giving you a chance to redeem yourself from the last round of flames). -- Pat On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and can't write and > spell. > > Dick From red at bears.org Mon Apr 29 00:41:35 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: <006b01c1eed8$b23d6840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You, 'bear,' need to go back and reread what you've previously written. The > 25MHz NEAT clone I bought in '89 was a '286, which, as I explained, was chosen > because it was slightly faster than the much more costly '386's of the time, > but cost MUCH less. It was, by the way, acquired through an ad in the > Computer Shopper, which I followed closely when I was shopping for a "deal" > since they didn't have an eBay yet. Dick, if I had any free coupons for reading comprehension lessons at the Sylvan Learning Center of your choice, I'd give them to you. I had not, until now, contributed further to this thread, and if you'd actually paid the slightest bit of attention you would have seen that it is GLEN GOODWIN's article you have responded to---as witnessed by the header you yourself included, even. > I often found decent prices in Computer Shopper, and seldom even bothered to FWIW I read Computer Shopper myself quite a lot at that time, cover to cover even, because I was 12 and given over to such things. My memory does not bear out your case, but it's notoriously flaky and I do not have the magazines around anymore. I did find some notes I---in a fit of wishful thinking---made about that time (based on doodles I remember drawing to cheer up a friend (ah, the heated war between Amiga and Macintosh), and other pages nearby with actual dates on them) with the following notes culled directly from Computer Shopper ads: * Orchid Pro Designer Plus: $339, p.30 $299, p.208 * Miniscribe M3085; 70 MB, 18 msec. HD: $569, p. 56 $549, p.112 Price from a local shop; the best I remember finding anywhere: * Barebones 16 MHz 286 (MB, case, PSU), $475 from Northwest Computer Outlet A few tens of pages later, representing fall 1990, and irrelevant to the discussion, but perhaps interesting to somebody: * GVP 28MHz accelerator for Amiga 2000: ~$775 * 2 MB RAM expansion board for Amiga 2000, fully populated: ~$450 These would've been from AmigaWorld. The next page bears some more Computer Shopper fruit: * Seagate ST1144A, kit: $469, p.298 * ATI VGA Wonder Plus, 512k: $229 * Sound Blaster: $149 * USR Courier HST (14.4kbps): $539 * NEC CDR3501 external CD-ROM, with interface: $549 So I _still_ find your claim highly specious, though I lack primary sources at the moment to back it up further. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glen Goodwin" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:47 PM > Subject: BS al a Erlacher Look! Do try to pay attention, please. > except perhaps in that I had the information and you didn't. I don't always > read the posts on the list as thoroughly and completely as I should, before > reacting, and it's clear I'm not alone in that. Yes. Painfully clear. I don't know what to say on the availability of 25 MHz 80286 parts. As I recall I stated quite clearly in the original message that my statement was just that; a feeling. As it turns out I did find something out about it in the meanwhile: http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach/435/comphis6.html "1989 (spring) Harris Semiconductor introduces a 25 MHz version of the 80286. Price is US $142 each in quantities of 1000." Not exactly a primary source, no, but it is something to chew on. ok r. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 28 23:20:53 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Starting point Message-ID: <20020429060013.OOGI7584.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > There was one big advantage to starting from a home computer rather than > just a CPU chip. You had a 'base system' that included enough software to > PEEK/POKE bytes to your homebrew add-on for testing. That alone made life > a lot easier when you wwre starting out. Tony! This is exactly the point I was making a few months ago about the ZX81. At that time, you said you'd prefer to start with a Z80 and build up from there, while I suggested that the ZX81 was a better starting point for a homebrew system since the BASIC and video were built-in. Care to clarify? Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 29 01:27:25 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III Message-ID: <20020429062859.NYVU962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Cameron Kaiser > The BIOS identifies itself as (C)1986 Commodore Electronics Ltd and seems > to be a Phoenix type. I can't figure out how to get into the BIOS setup. > Neat feature: all the devices are identified with their detected port > addresses. Cameron: I have a generic Phoenix BIOS utility which I have used several times on PCs where I could not enter the BIOS setup program via keystrokes. Please * remind me* to send you this utility if you think it will be helpful to you as it is very late here and I will forget . . . Best regards, Glen 0/0 From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 29 03:04:21 2002 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III References: <20020429062859.NYVU962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <007901c1ef54$787c7c00$030101ac@boll.casema.net> PC20-III did have a deviating bios-setup salute.. Try a few others but I know I've been there ...... Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Commodore PC-20-III > > From: Cameron Kaiser > > > The BIOS identifies itself as (C)1986 Commodore Electronics Ltd and seems > > to be a Phoenix type. I can't figure out how to get into the BIOS setup. > > Neat feature: all the devices are identified with their detected port > > addresses. > > Cameron: > > I have a generic Phoenix BIOS utility which I have used several times on > PCs where I could not enter the BIOS setup program via keystrokes. > > Please * remind me* to send you this utility if you think it will be > helpful to you as it is very late here and I will forget . . . > > Best regards, > > Glen > 0/0 > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 29 03:42:35 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher References: Message-ID: <001001c1ef59$cfa7e820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you'd read my earlier post, you'd know that my interest was in giving away the hardware I had available. The reason was that, while I still use some of the old boxes I have from back in the '70's, and while I still use the ones that do something the newer ones don't, or simply do it more conveniently, I don't have any interest in keeping non-functional or redundant hardware lying about. I started out trying to give away a bunch of stuff, provided lists, etc, but, rather than replies form folks interested in having this or that, I got a number of replies instead that simply said, "I'll take it all, ship it to ..." with no offer to participate, say, by paying for the packing and shipping. Some of the old hardware I've had, particularly the earliest stuff from '76-77, is still occasionally used and I keep it working as opportunity avails itself. I wouldn't say I toy with 'em however. I hot-rod the things from time to time, just to see what sort of speed could have come from them, under circumstances that didn't then exist, but I certainly don't pretend I see them as being in any sense better than what's out there today. About that round of flames, I'm not particularly thin-skinned, though I do become irritated when I'm misquoted. The folks who've taken time to display their lack of literacy, first in being unable to understand the simple statements made, the differences between computers built as computers and others built from toys, etc, and additionally in being unwilling to construct a coherent line of reasoning, not to mention present their posts having put a little thought into them, and so flighty in their effort that their grammar, syntax, and orthography are clear evidence they've not even read their own writing, I can't possibly take them seriously. Most of what I see in that last round is folks who misread what was said, believing it was what they wanted so they could jump on it. The folks who can read and write see through that right away. The ones who can't, or don't, don't matter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Finnegan" To: Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: Re: BS al a Erlacher > Since I haven't seen anyone ask this yet, I'll bite: > > Dick, do you actually have any interest in old machines or are you just > trolling the list? All of the messages I've read from you lately strongly > imply that you have no real interest toying with or using the systems we > normally talk about on this list. > > I'm not trying to start a war, I'm just trying to ask an honest > question (and perhaps giving you a chance to redeem yourself from the > last round of flames). > > -- Pat > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and can't write and > > spell. > > > > Dick > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 29 04:36:14 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher References: Message-ID: <00dc01c1ef61$4e776c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, Sir, I apologize for the inappropriate attribution of that inane set of remarks to you. I have to admit it surprised me that something of that nature could come from you, particularly in light of the generally sensible posts I'm accustomed to seeing with your name. That post to which I was replying did, however, start out with " > From: r. 'bear' stricklin > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but didn't get > > one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) with 8 ..." The fact that Mr. Goodwin's format was so confusing as to throw me off at the same time he complained about my experimenting with the various formats people had suggested, doesn't help. It's interesting that you mention the Northwest Computer Products as a source, since I do seem to recall that they were the source of the '286/25 motherboard to which I referred. I bought this hardware from a local guy who took my list of items and reference prices and then set about to gather up all the pieces for me and then take a small profit on the work. That motherboard, as I previously indicated was a board complete with the IIT coprocessor and 4 MB of DIP ram, all provided by NCP (if that's the right outfit) and the remaining 4 MB of SIPP memory was from a local vendor who supplied many of the sellers who advertised in Computer Shopper, though he happily sold to us and anyone else who asked him, at the same prices as those he charged the mail-order vendors he supplied. The video board was a 1Kx768x16-color Genoa 5400, I believe (I saw the box earlier today, though I don't have the card any longer). Those were not cheap, but were readily obtainable if one had the connections, at a price on the order of $139 or so. The advertised price at the time was on the order of $199, but it wasn't unusual to find someone who wanted to sell them and would take $60 less just to turn their inventory. As I previously mentioned, we'd been designing with 25 MHz 'C286 processors since '87 or so, for the satcom biz. I designed ground equipment, but the selected Harris CPU was used in both ground and flight app's and it was so widely avaialble that we didn't think anything about using it. The "official" 25 MHz part did come a bit later, but that was only a couple of years later, and really wasn't a die change or shrink. I think it was just a ground-rule change where the performance spec's were concerned. I took a look at the motherboard, BTW, and found that the C&T chips on the board were marked 20 MHz, but there's a sticker on the board that clearly says "25 MHz." This suggests the boards were selected for that rate. I don't know how you and your friends went about buying hardware back then. I shopped around because I didn't want to have to do it again. I didn't like paying more than 30% of retail prices, and seldom had to do that. I went back and checked the prices from Orca, and find their Q1 pricing on 1 MB SIMMs and SIPPs were, indeed, in the range of $35-37 at the time (September '89), as I have it penciled in the margin of their spec's. I did, after all, buy my first '386 motherboard from them, and complete with RAM. Since the distributor price of 1M DRAM SIMMs was only about $75-$78 at the time, I don't know where the $1k for 8 MB of RAM would come from. I bought a 1 MB-populated memory board (mfg by CUMULUS) for my HP LJ3 at about that time for $99 from a local retailer. It makes no sense that a SIMM would cost $125 through "discount" retailers. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 11:41 PM Subject: Re: BS al a Erlacher > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You, 'bear,' need to go back and reread what you've previously written. The > > 25MHz NEAT clone I bought in '89 was a '286, which, as I explained, was chosen > > because it was slightly faster than the much more costly '386's of the time, > > but cost MUCH less. It was, by the way, acquired through an ad in the > > Computer Shopper, which I followed closely when I was shopping for a "deal" > > since they didn't have an eBay yet. > > Dick, if I had any free coupons for reading comprehension lessons at the > Sylvan Learning Center of your choice, I'd give them to you. I had not, > until now, contributed further to this thread, and if you'd actually paid > the slightest bit of attention you would have seen that it is GLEN > GOODWIN's article you have responded to---as witnessed by the header you > yourself included, even. > > > I often found decent prices in Computer Shopper, and seldom even bothered to > > FWIW I read Computer Shopper myself quite a lot at that time, cover to > cover even, because I was 12 and given over to such things. My memory does > not bear out your case, but it's notoriously flaky and I do not have the > magazines around anymore. > > I did find some notes I---in a fit of wishful thinking---made about that > time (based on doodles I remember drawing to cheer up a friend (ah, the > heated war between Amiga and Macintosh), and other pages nearby with > actual dates on them) with the following notes culled directly from > Computer Shopper ads: > > * Orchid Pro Designer Plus: $339, p.30 $299, p.208 > * Miniscribe M3085; 70 MB, 18 msec. HD: $569, p. 56 $549, p.112 > > Price from a local shop; the best I remember finding anywhere: > > * Barebones 16 MHz 286 (MB, case, PSU), $475 from Northwest Computer Outlet > > A few tens of pages later, representing fall 1990, and irrelevant to the > discussion, but perhaps interesting to somebody: > > * GVP 28MHz accelerator for Amiga 2000: ~$775 > * 2 MB RAM expansion board for Amiga 2000, fully populated: ~$450 > > These would've been from AmigaWorld. The next page bears some more > Computer Shopper fruit: > > * Seagate ST1144A, kit: $469, p.298 > * ATI VGA Wonder Plus, 512k: $229 > * Sound Blaster: $149 > * USR Courier HST (14.4kbps): $539 > * NEC CDR3501 external CD-ROM, with interface: $549 > > So I _still_ find your claim highly specious, though I lack primary > sources at the moment to back it up further. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Glen Goodwin" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:47 PM > > Subject: BS al a Erlacher > > Look! Do try to pay attention, please. > > > except perhaps in that I had the information and you didn't. I don't always > > read the posts on the list as thoroughly and completely as I should, before > > reacting, and it's clear I'm not alone in that. > > Yes. Painfully clear. > > I don't know what to say on the availability of 25 MHz 80286 parts. As I > recall I stated quite clearly in the original message that my statement > was just that; a feeling. As it turns out I did find something out about > it in the meanwhile: > > http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/reach/435/comphis6.html > > "1989 (spring) Harris Semiconductor introduces a 25 MHz version of the > 80286. Price is US $142 each in quantities of 1000." > > Not exactly a primary source, no, but it is something to chew on. > > ok > r. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 29 04:42:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Starting point References: <20020429060013.OOGI7584.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <00ed01c1ef62$326ca920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Unless you really insisted on using BASIC, there were several free monitors that required only that you substitute the addresses, and perhaps a couple of bit masks for what was in place in the serial port driver. With a "real" monitor you could write loops that were not so slow that your 'scope would fail to display a consistent waveform because of the infrequency of the trigger event. If you required a composite video output, and could tolerate working around the hardware you didn't need, modifying an educational toy like that might, indeed, have been easier for the inexperienced. A storage scope or logic analyzer would probably have made working with the BASIC easier, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 10:20 PM Subject: Starting point > > From: Tony Duell > > > There was one big advantage to starting from a home computer rather than > > just a CPU chip. You had a 'base system' that included enough software to > > > PEEK/POKE bytes to your homebrew add-on for testing. That alone made life > > > a lot easier when you wwre starting out. > > Tony! This is exactly the point I was making a few months ago about the > ZX81. At that time, you said you'd prefer to start with a Z80 and build up > from there, while I suggested that the ZX81 was a better starting point for > a homebrew system since the BASIC and video were built-in. > > Care to clarify? > > Glen > 0/0 > > From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon Apr 29 07:18:42 2002 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: <00dc01c1ef61$4e776c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020429080420.00a1e9e0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Ok folks, read the following post from Dick and tell me what's wrong. BTW: if it's not that easy, here's a hint: the guy whom passes judgement on spelling and grammar makes at least one spelling mistake and at least one grammatical error in his little quip. Practicing what one might make a sad attempt at preaching might help here. I will see if I can wrangle up some Sylvan Learning center coupons for Dick. Continue to read on for points to what I mean. On another note: I just hit the reply button on my Eudora for the classiccmp posts. Why? Because I really don't care as long as you can read the damned thing. At 05:36 AM 4/29/02, you wrote: >Well, Sir, I apologize for the inappropriate attribution of that inane set of >remarks to you. I have to admit it surprised me that something of that nature >could come from you, particularly in light of the generally sensible posts I'm >accustomed to seeing with your name. > >That post to which I was replying did, however, start out with >" > > From: r. 'bear' stricklin > > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The year I got my first PC/AT (I used 'em at work all the time, but >didn't get > > > one at home for a while.) I bought a 25 MHz clone (NEAT architecture) >with 8 ..." > >The fact that Mr. Goodwin's format was so confusing as to throw me off at the >same time he complained about my experimenting with the various formats people >had suggested, doesn't help. > >It's interesting that you mention the Northwest Computer Products as a source, >since I do seem to recall that they were the source of the '286/25 motherboard >to which I referred. I bought this hardware from a local guy who took my list >of items and reference prices and then set about to gather up all the pieces >for me and then take a small profit on the work. That motherboard, as I >previously indicated was a board complete with the IIT coprocessor and 4 MB of >DIP ram, all provided by NCP (if that's the right outfit) and the remaining 4 >MB of SIPP memory was from a local vendor who supplied many of the sellers who >advertised in Computer Shopper, though he happily sold to us and anyone else >who asked him, at the same prices as those he charged the mail-order vendors >he supplied. > >The video board was a 1Kx768x16-color Genoa 5400, I believe (I saw the box >earlier today, though I don't have the card any longer). Those were not >cheap, but were readily obtainable if one had the connections, at a price on >the order of $139 or so. The advertised price at the time was on the order of >$199, but it wasn't unusual to find someone who wanted to sell them and would >take $60 less just to turn their inventory. > >As I previously mentioned, we'd been designing with 25 MHz 'C286 processors >since '87 or so, for the satcom biz. I designed ground equipment, but the >selected Harris CPU was used in both ground and flight app's and it was so >widely avaialble that we didn't think anything about using it. The "official" >25 MHz part did come a bit later, but that was only a couple of years later, >and really wasn't a die change or shrink. I think it was just a ground-rule >change where the performance spec's were concerned. > >I took a look at the motherboard, BTW, and found that the C&T chips on the >board were marked 20 MHz, but there's a sticker on the board that clearly says >"25 MHz." This suggests the boards were selected for that rate. > >I don't know how you and your friends went about buying hardware back then. I >shopped around because I didn't want to have to do it again. I didn't like >paying more than 30% of retail prices, and seldom had to do that. I went back >and checked the prices from Orca, and find their Q1 pricing on 1 MB SIMMs and >SIPPs were, indeed, in the range of $35-37 at the time (September '89), as I >have it penciled in the margin of their spec's. I did, after all, buy my >first '386 motherboard from them, and complete with RAM. Dick: the 'and' should not be there. ..."motherboard from them, complete with RAM". That should be your sentence. Ok, now that we have nit-picked, etcetera; are we ready to get back to discussing classic computers, or are we going to continue to be pricks? (Yes, I know 'pricks' is poor English and used quite possibly in bad grammar, but isn't that my point right now?) -John ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 29 08:52:28 2002 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: I'm getting sick of this shit! Re: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: References: <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020429095228.0081c930@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:56 PM 4/28/02 -0500, Pat wrote: >Since I haven't seen anyone ask this yet, I'll bite: > >Dick, do you actually have any interest in old machines or are you just >trolling the list? Pat, If you read the messages on the list you'd know better than to ask that question. All of the messages I've read from you lately strongly >imply that you have no real interest toying with or using the systems we >normally talk about on this list. If you're referring to him having no interest in preserving Apple IIs then I'm guilty as well and I'm sure that many people on this list are too. I might not remove the power supplies and pitch to rest but OTOH I don't save any either. Things like Apple IIs, IBMs, etc are just too common. If I saved everyone that I saw I'd not only fill my house but my entire property as well. If Disk can use the power supplies instead of throwing the entire Apple into the trash (or just leaving it in the trash) than I say good for him! Personally I'm getting sick of this flame war and I wish you guys would drop it. Joe > >I'm not trying to start a war, I'm just trying to ask an honest >question (and perhaps giving you a chance to redeem yourself from the >last round of flames). > >-- Pat > >On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and can't write and >> spell. >> >> Dick > > > From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 29 08:23:17 2002 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher References: <20020428054936.WCJP962.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <006b01c1eed8$b23d6840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002b01c1eef4$bc0ec500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002b01c1ef81$06e25380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> From: Richard Erlacher To: > Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and > can't write and spell. Dead wrong. Now you have your own thread. Use it wisely. John A. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 29 09:07:46 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers (was: OT email response format) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467892@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Doc > > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Did someone say power cords??? I got a box of about 4 dozen if you need > any. > > Heh. I can get you about 4 dozen boxes of 'em.... > > Doc > Geezuz Kirsti.... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 09:03:34 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D3@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ I do hope Sridhar will take his time to address this. :) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 29 09:30:50 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Apology {RE: Sun help needed... [was: RE: ... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467893@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Oh boy... Looks like I managed to make myself look like some dumb-ass schizophrenic with a computer. When I really _only_ just a dumb-ass with a computer... Made the mistake of trying to send e-mail through an Exchange server from Netscape using IMAP. The server lied and said it didn't send the message (that bastard!). That's why I tried two other ways... Many apologies to all for my screw-up. Please respond off-list... But does anyone have a better e-mail client recommendation? I have sub-folders on the server, which I'd need to get to... -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 09:20:18 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sridhar the POWERful [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Raymond Moyers wrote: > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > terms over the network etc etc. > Ow! You're killing me! Heh -- I was hoping for a more verbose reply, but that's ok. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 09:25:54 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > I've been playing around with cp/m-86, and was wondering if > anyone knew if > > a multiuser (like MP/M) version was available somewhere? > My next step is > > to try making it work under Dosemu on Linux if I cant... > Have you looked at "Concurrent CP/M-86"? "Concurrent DOS" in later versions, right? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From meltie at myrealbox.com Mon Apr 29 09:30:46 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: M0006 Message-ID: <1020090648.2599.5.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On closer inspection, the VAX 11/750 board that I have marked "Property of DEC, Not For Sale" is an M0006 - a Remote Diagnosis board. What can you people tell me about it? Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 29 09:36:40 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: I'm getting sick of this shit! Re: BS al a Erlacher References: <003101c1ef2e$430946a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3.0.6.32.20020429095228.0081c930@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CCD5A78.DB3EC828@rain.org> I'll second this. We have enough OT stuff without adding personal flame wars to the mix. Joe wrote: > > At 11:56 PM 4/28/02 -0500, Pat wrote: > >Since I haven't seen anyone ask this yet, I'll bite: > > > >Dick, do you actually have any interest in old machines or are you just > >trolling the list? > > Pat, > > If you read the messages on the list you'd know better than to ask that question. > > All of the messages I've read from you lately strongly > >imply that you have no real interest toying with or using the systems we > >normally talk about on this list. > > If you're referring to him having no interest in preserving Apple IIs then I'm guilty as well and I'm sure that many people on this list are too. I might not remove the power supplies and pitch to rest but OTOH I don't save any either. Things like Apple IIs, IBMs, etc are just too common. If I saved everyone that I saw I'd not only fill my house but my entire property as well. If Disk can use the power supplies instead of throwing the entire Apple into the trash (or just leaving it in the trash) than I say good for him! > > Personally I'm getting sick of this flame war and I wish you guys would drop it. > > Joe > > > > >I'm not trying to start a war, I'm just trying to ask an honest > >question (and perhaps giving you a chance to redeem yourself from the > >last round of flames). > > > >-- Pat > > > >On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> Looks as though someone's p*ssed because he doesn't read and can't write and > >> spell. > >> > >> Dick > > > > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 09:39:01 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > A real box can total flood a bundle of gigabit fiber > the diameter of your right leg, its the I/O that sets > these monsters apart really, their CPUs are no > slouch, but not any faster than a common modern > PC chip. So, by "emulated," you didn't mean to imply that they were emulated in such a manner as to be replaced by the peesee -- that is the misunderstanding here, I'm sure. :) Anyway, I've always subscribed to the school of thought which says that the CPU should do only that which can't be accomplished with special purpose chips. It makes things much more elegant. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 29 09:56:26 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: M0006 Message-ID: >On closer inspection, the VAX 11/750 board that I have marked "Property > of DEC, Not For Sale" is an M0006 - a Remote Diagnosis board. What can > you people tell me about it? This was used by DEC to dial in to the computer over a telephone line and manage it as though someone were typing at the console. It used an unpublished protocol between the kit at DEC's end ad the box at your end. Technically the box still belongs to DEC ... or maybe COMPAQ ... or soon HP. The support engineer at DEC's end could do whatever he liked to your machine, but everyhting he did was recorded by the support centre's systems. Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 09:52:54 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: James B. DiGriz [mailto:jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org] > Nah, I understand that Stallman and the FSF are under > constant probing > for any sign of a capitulatory mood, for any sign of Ok... > tolerance for being > made irrelvant, since they are using IP against itself, and a lot of > people stand to gain at everyone else's expense if they can > crack that Ok... > wall. That's the grounds for the GNU/linux controversy, and > no doubt why > he makes demands that are taken as overreaching to UG's that Huh? There's nothing in the license that says you have to give GNU credit in the popularly accepted name of your software. Trying to change that after the fact by throwing your weight around, so to speak, is certainly in poor taste. Richard "I won't talk to you unless you call your project by my pet name" Stallman has lost much of my respect over all of this. Of course, this is just my opinion, and you can certainly disagree. > want him to > speak. I don't envy his position. He has a point, too, even > if you think > it's overblown. Enough so that a lot of people would prefer If you mean that the FSF deserves some credit and respect, sure, but that's not the way for him to get the former, and it certainly has lost him lots of the latter, even if the project may still be relatively well thought of. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 09:59:37 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:18 2005 Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844DA@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Linux is making computing CPU agnostic however > and with a system that runs on anything, all that > matters for the hardware is price/performace. I thought NetBSD was about making computing CPU agnostic, and Linux was about giving it huggable plush mascots? ;) > In this new climate, perhaps the dark/ice age of > winblows dumbing down mankind will abate. I've been wishing for this to happen, but I see the world being no closer now that it has been. However, if you have any ideas as to how we can deliver the gospel of computer literacy to the unwashed masses, I'd love to hear them. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 10:14:33 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844DC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Finnegan" > > Dick, do you actually have any interest in old machines or > are you just > If you'd read my earlier post, you'd know that my interest > was in giving away > the hardware I had available. The reason was that, while I > still use some of > the old boxes I have from back in the '70's, and while I > still use the ones > that do something the newer ones don't, or simply do it more > conveniently, I Sounds fair to me, though, I go further, and preserve hardware for the sake of "example," among other things. > don't have any interest in keeping non-functional or > redundant hardware lying > about. Just in case somebody complains about this response, I have to say that it sounds like a proper use of this list as far as I can tell. > number of replies instead that simply said, "I'll take it > all, ship it to ..." > with no offer to participate, say, by paying for the packing > and shipping. Normally if I were to tell somebody that, I'd be assuming that I'd at least have to pay the shipping, but if I ever write to you about something like that, I'll try to be clear on it. > itself. I wouldn't say I toy with 'em however. I hot-rod > the things from > time to time, just to see what sort of speed could have come > from them, under > circumstances that didn't then exist, but I certainly don't > pretend I see them > as being in any sense better than what's out there today. Better is, however, very subjective. :) > their grammar, > syntax, and orthography are clear evidence they've not even > read their own > writing, I can't possibly take them seriously. A pet peeve of mine too; you can't get away from those people, either. Some of them are even great people, but their writing is terrible. One thing I've wondered for a while -- and don't take this as an insult -- is, are you aware of the possible slang connotations in your user-name? Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 29 09:48:43 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Jan 82 article abt the IBM PC References: <200204280550.g3S5oFR14259@Fubar.nop.org> <3CCC0397.8060509@dragonsweb.org> <200204282219.g3SMJjG16510@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <3CCD5D4B.80901@dragonsweb.org> Raymond Moyers wrote: > On Sunday 28 April 2002 09:13, you wrote: > >>Raymond Moyers wrote: >> >>> http://www.nop.org/misc/pics/ibmpc >> >>Why? I didn't get a kick out of it then. > > > Well, part of the discussion here was about cost > and the article has a price table comparing with > machines like the model 4 > > I made no inference about merit. Nor did I, particularly. > > Indeed, the x86 chip started as a controler for > a cad terminal, and ss100 had plenty life in > it, esp with the opening it gave for others to > make cards, like the then common practice > of stuffing several single board computers into > a single ss100 chassis to get multiuser into one > box. > > the x86 line had everyting to bitch about, it was > register starved and GP regs that wasnt really GP > > Linux is making computing CPU agnostic however > and with a system that runs on anything, all that > matters for the hardware is price/performace. > > In this new climate, perhaps the dark/ice age of > winblows dumbing down mankind will abate. > Windows doesn't dumb anybody down, really, it just confuses and frustrates in an attempt to patronize. Even if it does have some useful features, they come at a cost, beyond the purchase price. It would be nice if there was an out-of-the-box power-user GUI option (eg. a decent regedit tool with a kb backend capable of running off remote repositories) with more informative and relevant error-messaging and handling options, instead of the brain-dead dialog boxes. Trying to accomplish any system configuration using them is like running in a squirrel cage. It would also be nice if you didn't have to reboot to have config or driver changes take effect. But I no longer care. It's been years since my command-line knowledge was up to the task of maintaining Windows in any way that didn't test my patience and temper. This is topical, even. Got my first 386 in Feb. '92, and noticed this right away. That's when I first installed Slackware off the Night Owl 10 CD. (This was alleged to be difficult, btw. Right.) I finally gave up on Windows a few years later when it was clear that everything was going to change again with each new release, and 90% of what you'd learned before was going to be irrelevant or wrong. Not the mention the need to fork out again for new apps. This isn't just inefficient and wasteful, it constitutes gross abuse. MS as whole has consistently perpetrated this kind of insult to developers, programmers, and users. No telling what the overall economic cost has been. But, again, you can't really pin the blame on them, ultimately. They're just doing what's expected of them. "What the market wants" (Actually, just all the market is allowed to want.) They'd be up on charges if they didn't, not just being sued. That's the way the system works. Planned obsolescence, and all it entails, is an extremely bad idea when it comes to software, though. Especially system software. I will avoid channelling Rand and discussing the arbitrary, ad-hoc, and capricious balancing of screw-over rights and court-ordered robbing Peter to pay Paul known as antitrust if you will leave Mr. Hannity on the radio. jbdigriz From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 29 10:50:42 2002 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: I'm getting sick of this shit! Re: BS al a Erlacher Message-ID: I agree, I don't much like having 20 or so e-mails like that in my inbox... especially because hotmail will start deleting stuff when the mailbox is full enough! I personally junk apple IIs also, though I pitch the power supply and take the boards to the scrapyard. I have nothing against Dick, he's given me lots of neat stuff, and while I'm sure I don't share all of the same opinions that he does, what he does with his property is his own perogative. That's my 1865 2 cent piece worth, Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 29 10:53:35 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > > terms over the network etc etc. > > > Ow! You're killing me! > > Heh -- I was hoping for a more verbose reply, but that's ok. I don't want to risk my head exploding. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 26 02:29:42 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 07:41:10 CEST References: Message-ID: <20020426092942.A17613@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.26 07:41 Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > Ooooh. I'd love to have an R4400 Indigo. Hmmmm. I can remember somthing like that it is possible to put the 150MHz R4400 CPU module from an Indigo2 in an Indigo. R4400 150MHz Indigo2s are quite common.... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pat at purdueriots.com Mon Apr 29 10:53:11 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: BS al a Erlacher In-Reply-To: <001001c1ef59$cfa7e820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If you'd read my earlier post, you'd know that my interest was in giving away > the hardware I had available. The reason was that, while I still use some of > the old boxes I have from back in the '70's, and while I still use the ones > that do something the newer ones don't, or simply do it more conveniently, I > don't have any interest in keeping non-functional or redundant hardware lying > about. I read that, but was asking because I don't remember seeing any posts from you giving things away. That doesn't mean that you didn't ask, just that I don't remember it (or didn't see it). OK, time for me to SIGTERM this thread. -- Pat From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Apr 29 11:08:40 2002 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Apple II Unidisk 3.5/LIRON card Message-ID: Hello all (except Dick :-) ), I'm having a problem with an Apple IIe Platinum, and I hope you can help. I recently acquired a LIRON 3.5" floppy controller card, and was looking forward to using 3.5" disks on my AIIe. After some reading, it seemed that the LIRON card would only work with a Unidisk 3.5" (model number starts with "A2M"), and NOT with a 3.5" drive from, say, a IIgs (model number starts with "A9M"). So, of course, I went and found a Unidisk 3.5" drive... The combination doesn't work, *even with every other card pulled*, so here are my questions: - Will the LIRON card work with the Unidisk 3.5" drive? My reading of several FAQs says "yes", but maybe I misread something... - Does anyone have docs for either the drive, or the card? There are no switches or jumpers, and the installation seems obvious, but who knows, maybe I missed something.... - Can you boot from the 3.5" drive? Or is it only for storage, and you can only boot with 5.25" drives? Thanks for any help! Rich B. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 29 10:11:11 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CCD628F.8000108@dragonsweb.org> Christopher Smith wrote: > >>wall. That's the grounds for the GNU/linux controversy, and >>no doubt why >>he makes demands that are taken as overreaching to UG's that > > > Huh? > > There's nothing in the license that says you have to give GNU > credit in the popularly accepted name of your software. Trying > to change that after the fact by throwing your weight around, so > to speak, is certainly in poor taste. > > Richard "I won't talk to you unless you call your project by my pet > name" Stallman has lost much of my respect over all of this. > > Of course, this is just my opinion, and you can certainly disagree. > want him to >>speak. I don't envy his position. He has a point, too, even >>if you think >>it's overblown. Enough so that a lot of people would prefer > > > If you mean that the FSF deserves some credit and respect, sure, > but that's not the way for him to get the former, and it certainly > has lost him lots of the latter, even if the project may still be > relatively well thought of. > > Chris > I think you can make the case that he isn't entirely unjustified. He and the FSF have a lot invested in it. I don't see anything more objectionable in it than the average corporate trademark claim. It certainly annoys a lot of people, though. It might behoove him to find a better way of dealilng with the issue if he can. I'll go along with that. The snide attempts at ad hominems are unwarranted, though. jbdigriz From pat at purdueriots.com Mon Apr 29 11:00:41 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D3@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > I do hope Sridhar will take his time to address this. :) Well, if not I will. While hercules is WAY cool (I've played with it a bit, along with OS/360 since it's "public domain"), it'll never beat the real thing. On my shiny new Dual Athlon 1700+ (1.466GHz) (however I suspect that hercules is only using one processor to decode/execute instructions), I get a Super-Speedy 5MIPS rating at most. While this is about 2x as much as my old Athlon 700 system gave, it's nowhere near as fast as any modern S/390 or zSeries, and probably not even as fast as the S/390 on a card that IBM use to sell with a PS/2 as a P/390. Emulated hardware will _always_ be ages behind the real thing when the two architectures are as difference as PC's and ESA/390 or zArchitecture (not to mention disk I/O, memory I/O, and the mainframe's I/O subsystem in general). -- Pat From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 29 11:19:36 2002 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: LIST ADMIN Re: BS al a Erlacher References: Message-ID: <009401c1ef99$a8a49e40$9601a8c0@HPLAPTOP> C'mon kids.... let's take the flaming offlist to private email Jay West From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 29 11:33:09 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <20020426092942.A17613@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Ooooh. I'd love to have an R4400 Indigo. > Hmmmm. I can remember somthing like that it is possible to put the > 150MHz R4400 CPU module from an Indigo2 in an Indigo. R4400 150MHz > Indigo2s are quite common.... Can someone confirm this? I might have to go shopping. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 29 11:42:27 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers (was Re: Micro$oft Biz'droid Lusers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote: > > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > > > I do hope Sridhar will take his time to address this. :) > > Well, if not I will. While hercules is WAY cool (I've played with it > a bit, along with OS/360 since it's "public domain"), it'll never beat > the real thing. On my shiny new Dual Athlon 1700+ (1.466GHz) (however > I suspect that hercules is only using one processor to decode/execute > instructions), I get a Super-Speedy 5MIPS rating at most. While this > is about 2x as much as my old Athlon 700 system gave, it's nowhere > near as fast as any modern S/390 or zSeries, and probably not even as > fast as the S/390 on a card that IBM use to sell with a PS/2 as a > P/390. It might be about the same league as a P/390. Certainly not a P/390E, and nowhere near even the minimum configuration of the oldest S/390. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 29 11:44:13 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: LJII Memory Cards References: Message-ID: <3CCD785D.4A8D270@rain.org> I have two Memory cards for the HP Laserjet II, both with no documentation. One is fully stuffed and looks to be 4 MB; the second is partially stuffed and with what appears to be 1 MB. Best offer over $10.00 for both plus shipping ($3.50 USPS Priority Mail) by Tuesday. If you are not going to follow through quickly, please don't make an offer or say you want them. From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 29 11:50:56 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: HP 82931A Blue Print Thermal Paper References: <20020426092942.A17613@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3CCD79F0.1B08F1F9@rain.org> I've got three "new" boxes of the HP 82931A Thermal Paper, each containing two rolls. Best offer over $3.00 each + shipping by Tuesday. The weight of each box is about 3.5 pounds. From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 29 11:58:47 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: DEC Networks and Communications Buyer's Guide - 1989 References: <3CCD785D.4A8D270@rain.org> Message-ID: <3CCD7BC7.25EC2041@rain.org> This is the 1989 January-June DEC Networks and Communications Buyer's Guide. The outside edges (about 1") opposite the spline are pretty ratty, but is in pretty good condition otherwise. Best offer over $5.00 including postage by Tuesday. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Apr 29 12:14:36 2002 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: LJII Memory Cards Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467897@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> > From: Marvin Johnston > > I have two Memory cards for the HP Laserjet II, both with no > documentation. One is fully stuffed and looks to be 4 MB; the second is > partially stuffed and with what appears to be 1 MB. Best offer over > $10.00 for both plus shipping ($3.50 USPS Priority Mail) by Tuesday. > > If you are not going to follow through quickly, please don't make an > offer or say you want them. > - Does anyone know if these would work in a DEC Laser 2100? - If not, does anyone know of/have any memory for a DECLaser2100 that they are willing to part with? - I remember someone said they had an extra legal tray for an HP LaserJet II/III. That would fit in my (newly acquired) DECLaser 2100. Please e-mail me. -- --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Mac OS X 10.1.2 - Darwin Kernel Version 5.2: Fri Dec 7 21:39:35 PST 2001 Running since 01/22/2002 without a crash From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 12:12:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: James B. DiGriz [mailto:jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org] > > If you mean that the FSF deserves some credit and respect, sure, > > but that's not the way for him to get the former, and it certainly > > has lost him lots of the latter, even if the project may still be > > relatively well thought of. > I think you can make the case that he isn't entirely > unjustified. He and In wanting credit? No, he's not unjustified at all. Only in demanding that the credit take whatever form he likes. :) > the FSF have a lot invested in it. I don't see anything more > objectionable in it than the average corporate trademark claim. It Well, you should see what I have to say about most of those. > certainly annoys a lot of people, though. It might behoove > him to find a > better way of dealilng with the issue if he can. I'll go > along with that. I'll say that it shows an incredible lack of taste and social grace on his part to take offense at everyone who doesn't see it his way (right or not...) That said, he can do what he likes -- I just may not agree with it. > The snide attempts at ad hominems are unwarranted, though. I hope that's not directed towards me. I'll say now that I have nothing against Richard Stallman personally. Only against some opinions that it seems he'd like codified into law. Any "fun" made of him is simply caricature to drive the point home. I have, though, thought about making a BSD/Linux in protest. ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 29 13:49:17 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: Message-ID: <3CCD95AD.E1DF7822@bluewin.ch> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > > There is more to handling than just soldering. > > How about the PCB itself ? Certainly not hobbyist grade... > > How about the costs involved ? the equipment ? > > Several PCB proto houses will do small 4 and 6 layer boards at hobbyist > prices. > > Now that is something that I am severly missing here in Switzerland... Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 29 15:10:59 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <001001c1eedc$db86e0b0$51f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3CCDA8D3.A1C110CF@bluewin.ch> ajp166 wrote: > , so you say. I just got done building two 50mhz frequency counters > using SMT parts. The board is 1.8x2.1 inches and the display is 4 digit > module with .375" 7 segment leds. The assembly includes 6 transistors > (SOT) and a 74HC4017 (SMT) plus the Amtel (20pin dip) micro and > associated chip resistors, caps and diodes. The resistors were the > large 1206 (.11x.06") parts. There were a total of 5 through hole parts > if you count the crystal and display. With a low power magnifier, > standard > weller 3/64" tip, .022 silver bearing solder, and a pair of #3 tweezers > it went > together quite fast. OK, but these are not the kind of devices I was refering to. I have seen the immense effort that goes into prototyping GSM phones. That is which lead to my opinion that such development is beyond any hobbiest means. > If anything, for those willing to adapt I'd say there are possibilities > available now that never were. That is true. But only for the determined,, experienced people . > > Oh and people still build boat anchors too. Which remains me : I really ought to do somehng with those 5718, 5840 and 6112 pico-tubes ( what is the correct name ) i've got . Anybody any pointers for schematics ( small radio ) with these tubes ? I believe it was discussed before on the list. JOs Dreesen From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 29 12:54:34 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question Message-ID: <3CCD88DA.5050307@internet1.net> I'm using the case from an IBM AT to build a socket 7 Linux machine. The AT wasn't complete, and the case is a little rusty on it's hood, so it wasn't a good example to restore to original. My question is this..... can I safely leave the PS cover off? If I add a few of the factory screws the PS case/chassis is still quite solid, it just does have the cover on the top, or by the drives. Basically, it removes two out of six sides. I'd want to do this for a bit more cooling, since the fan would have less obstruction. Plus, I think it looks lind of cool too :-) Would I have problems with EMF emmisions effecting the computer's operations? The main case cover would be installed.... would I have other EMF troubles, if I leave the top of the PS off? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 29 12:16:05 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CCD7FD5.1010501@dragonsweb.org> Christopher Smith wrote: > >>certainly annoys a lot of people, though. It might behoove >>him to find a >>better way of dealilng with the issue if he can. I'll go >>along with that. > > > I'll say that it shows an incredible lack of taste and social grace > on his part to take offense at everyone who doesn't see it his way > (right or not...) > > If you're saying that whether somebody is right or not, or whether substantive matters of potentially great import hang on this, is more important to some people than having their ass sucked, to the extent that a Stallman's reasons don't even enter in, then you may be right. So what? It doesn't address the issues at all. Think we've reached the agree to disagree point here, Chief. It's ceased to be topical anyway. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 29 12:20:19 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <3CCD80D3.80404@dragonsweb.org> Christopher Smith wrote: > >>certainly annoys a lot of people, though. It might behoove >>him to find a >>better way of dealilng with the issue if he can. I'll go >>along with that. > > > I'll say that it shows an incredible lack of taste and social grace > on his part to take offense at everyone who doesn't see it his way > (right or not...) > > If you're saying that whether somebody is right or not, or whether substantive matters of potentially great import hang on this, is more ^^^^ wups, "less" important to some people than having their ass sucked, to the extent that a Stallman's reasons don't even enter in, then you may be right. So what? It doesn't address the issues at all. Think we've reached the agree to disagree point here, Chief. It's ceased to be topical anyway. jbdigriz From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 29 13:45:16 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y." Message-ID: <001f01c1efae$0190a850$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > OK, but these are not the kind of devices I was refering to. > I have seen the immense effort that goes into prototyping GSM phones. That is > which lead to my opinion that such development is beyond any hobbiest means. I'm not sure I understand this. Are the GSM prototypes with which you are familiar, FINISHED prototypes, i.e. same size, circuits, etc, as the final product? If so, I'd understand the difficulty, but that is a form of prototyping that I'm only familiar with through the efforts of non-technical people to get involved in the hi-tech field. I guess it gets done that way a lot, and this is likely the source of the devices we swear at. Usually, the prototypes I've developed, are what we refer to as level-1 prototypes. They demonstrate the basic concept as being workable. At level-2. you bring in accountants and marketing people to work with the engineers to see if the device can be produced in a cost-effevtive manner, wherein the beanheads determine that they'll actually be able to make a profit from the manufacture and sale of the item. Many otherwise promising designs die here because the engineer won't let the beancounter substitute that switch that will break at the device's half-life, or because the engineer won't let the marketing guy make the device purple and yellow. Good for the bloody engineer, too... -dq From emu at ecubics.com Mon Apr 29 13:54:55 2002 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <3CCD95AD.E1DF7822@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3CCD96FF.8203CAFD@ecubics.com> Jos Dreesen wrote: > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > > > > > > > There is more to handling than just soldering. > > > How about the PCB itself ? Certainly not hobbyist grade... > > > How about the costs involved ? the equipment ? > > > > Several PCB proto houses will do small 4 and 6 layer boards at hobbyist > > prices. > > > > > Now that is something that I am severly missing here in Switzerland... > > Jos So, what about http://www.pcb-pool.com in germany ? You can send eagle *.brd files in ... cheers From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 13:47:51 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Open source -- non computer topics Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E8@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: James B. DiGriz [mailto:jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org] > If you're saying that whether somebody is right or not, or whether > substantive matters of potentially great import hang on this, is more > important to some people than having their ass sucked, to the extent > that a Stallman's reasons don't even enter in, then you may > be right. So > what? It doesn't address the issues at all. Actually it's his presentation of those reasons that concerns me. I'm only re-iterating that he would find more sympathetic ears if he weren't so rigid about the whole thing. > Think we've reached the agree to disagree point here, Chief. > It's ceased > to be topical anyway. Suits me. There are certainly more important and interesting things to discuss. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Mon Apr 29 13:49:19 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: M0006 References: Message-ID: <3CCD95AF.A1178932@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > >On closer inspection, the VAX 11/750 board that I have marked > >"Property of DEC, Not For Sale" is an M0006 - a Remote Diagnosis > board. What can you people tell me about it? > > This was used by DEC to dial in to the computer over a telephone > line and manage it as though someone were typing at the console. Antonio, you spoilsport :-P I was going to ask Alex for his phone number! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 29 14:25:40 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 18:33:09 CEST References: <20020426092942.A17613@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020429212540.C25286@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.29 18:33 Sridhar the POWERful wrote: > > Hmmmm. I can remember somthing like that it is possible to put the > > 150MHz R4400 CPU module from an Indigo2 in an Indigo. R4400 150MHz > > Indigo2s are quite common.... > Can someone confirm this? I might have to go shopping. [digging in my bookmarks] http://www.futuretech.vuurwerk.nl/r4k150upgrade.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 29 14:35:22 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: M0006 Message-ID: >Antonio, you spoilsport :-P > I was going to ask Alex for his phone number! So do you have the CSC-end of the kit that you will need to do that? I'm assuming that since they want to all the trouble of producing something marginally secure, the customer end of the secure connection cannot be used to dial out to some other customer end (otherwise it would not have been *that* secure). If you *do* have the CSC-end of the kit I'm seriously impressed :-) Although until Alex fixes his +2.5V regulator, there's not much you can do ! Antonio > From rmoyers at nop.org Mon Apr 29 14:47:35 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D7@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <200204291947.g3TJlfa19728@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 29 April 2002 09:39, you wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > > > > A real box can total flood a bundle of gigabit fiber > > the diameter of your right leg, its the I/O that sets > > these monsters apart really, their CPUs are no > > slouch, but not any faster than a common modern > > PC chip. > > So, by "emulated," you didn't mean to imply that they were emulated > in such a manner as to be replaced by the peesee - They don't pay those costly License fees and support contracts out of ignorance. todays mainframes are exteamly muscular, having taken advantage of the same technical advancements Take the old 360 for example, a very old machine, yet it had 16 way interleaved memory, giving it thruput very respectable even when that ram was core. > - that is the > misunderstanding here, I'm sure. :) Well, i had assumed most would know that a box that typically served 5000 seats or more was powerfull even as most might not know what it is that really sets these things apart. Channel I/O for example, translating to terms and concepts more familiar to those without OPER console time, imagine a "PC" where every orifice was pumped by its own dedicated DMA controller, where you can have 65535 of these devices. and fill em all up with no load on the CPU. Remember when the mickysoft press release parroting nattering nabob computer press was declaring the death of the mainframe ? and very humorous events like when the idiot press would read a product release about NT being ported to an FSIOP card, and run to print "NT Ported to the mainframe ! " A FSIOP card, File Server I/O Processor, is a PC on a card that plugs into the mainframe so that it can share mainframe DASD (disk) or have a faster channel for I/O to PC based middleware, it certainly isn't NT running on the mainframe in the manner the hapless readers of these sorry articles was led to believe. As for CPU power, PC's are certainly as fast per CPU in a general sense as a mainframe, but without the I/O capacity could never hope to replace a mainframe anytime soon. Those same press twits that reported the death of the mainframe later wrote articles that perhaps they would be around longer than expected and finnaly that IBM was selling more of them than ever before. The PC running something decent does rival the power of a mainframe or a supercomputer of yesterday however, its just that most cant tell when all that performance is bloated out with a utterly total garbage OS called winblows that is such utter garbage that at last time i checked w2k needed 64megs of ram for the installer to run ? how absurd ! Compare with the size of bsd/linux/unix that will still run on a machine with 4megs or compare with a mainframe nucleus and you see that they on the other hand, have stayed small tight and fast. and assembler is still very mainstream on the mainframe where thruput of massive loads is still the focus. No, i really didnt think i would be misunderstood as saying it was practical or even passable beyond laughable that i was sugessting a PC could replace a mainframe. The computation power needed to emulate that hardware in any useable sense is not small however, on the bare metal the PC has caught up to those machines and surpassed all but the newest on a per CPU basis, the ability to get 5 mips or so emulating 360/70/90 instructions is testament that the lowly PC has become very muscular in its own right. > Anyway, I've always subscribed to the school of thought which says > that the CPU should do only that which can't be accomplished with > special purpose chips. It makes things much more elegant. Look at a mainframe stuffed full of channel controlers and you see very similar type of thing, and one of the reasons why big iron is so powerfull. a modern uP is the equal of a mainframe CPU today, but you get more out of the mainframe cpu computationally because it does not have to do anything else. Raymond From meltie at myrealbox.com Mon Apr 29 14:44:16 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: <3CCD95AF.A1178932@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> References: <3CCD95AF.A1178932@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Message-ID: <1020109472.3873.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> > Antonio, you spoilsport :-P > I was going to ask Alex for his phone number! *grins* that's what I thought it would be for - how other many people have one, have seen one, or have used one that are on here then? Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Apr 29 15:00:22 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IRIX In-Reply-To: <20020429212540.C25286@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > Hmmmm. I can remember somthing like that it is possible to put the > > > 150MHz R4400 CPU module from an Indigo2 in an Indigo. R4400 150MHz > > > Indigo2s are quite common.... > > Can someone confirm this? I might have to go shopping. > [digging in my bookmarks] > http://www.futuretech.vuurwerk.nl/r4k150upgrade.html Excellent! Thanks, Jochen. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From jasonz at issproinc.com Mon Apr 29 15:03:04 2002 From: jasonz at issproinc.com (Jason Zinserling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code Message-ID: <000001c1efb8$e1566100$780aa8c0@gw1056735.issproinc.com> Hi .. I happen to have this Ancient 6502 Focal source code in Lisa format for the Apple II computer Jason Zinserling From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 29 15:09:27 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question References: <3CCD88DA.5050307@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000f01c1efb9$c3ffe440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I doubt you'll have any trouble with the unit if you reverse the fan, i.e. have it blow in rather than suck out the cooling air supply for your computer. That way, assuming the top's on the enclosure, air will flow into the computer through the PSU, and, if you're clever, a coarse filter, and then travel out through the front-loading peripherals rather than coming in through them and depositing the dirt in them. You may want to put a fan on both sides of the filter, BTW. If you're at all worried about EMI, it might be reassuring to put some ferrous metal screen, the sort used to repair, or scavenged from, OLD screen doors, not the new ones, over the PSU's larger openings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 11:54 AM Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question > I'm using the case from an IBM AT to build a socket 7 Linux machine. > The AT wasn't complete, and the case is a little rusty on it's hood, so > it wasn't a good example to restore to original. > > My question is this..... can I safely leave the PS cover off? If I add > a few of the factory screws the PS case/chassis is still quite solid, it > just does have the cover on the top, or by the drives. Basically, it > removes two out of six sides. I'd want to do this for a bit more > cooling, since the fan would have less obstruction. Plus, I think it > looks lind of cool too :-) Would I have problems with EMF emmisions > effecting the computer's operations? > > The main case cover would be installed.... would I have other EMF > troubles, if I leave the top of the PS off? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 29 15:11:16 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: PDP11 M8190 console + DIP switches / FPA Message-ID: <20020429221116.E25286@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I am looking for the console bulkhead pinout and the DIP switch description of the M8190 / KDJ11-B PDP11 QBus CPU module. I had a look at the micronotes and googled around, but found nothing. Also: The board seams to be revision C1 (stamped on the handle). Does this mean I can not add a FPA? I am a bit confused because there is only "KDJ11-B" written on the board and micronote 39 lists the "KDJ11-BC" as FPA incompatible. field-guide.txt contains no "KDJ11-BC" and lists only the "KDJ11-B 11/84 CPU" UniBus CPU as FPA incompatible. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From meltie at myrealbox.com Mon Apr 29 15:26:15 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1020111977.2446.1.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Mon, 2002-04-29 at 20:35, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Although until Alex fixes his +2.5V regulator, > there's not much you can do ! Like I said, there's no way i'm fiddling with a PSU this powerful... Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 29 15:37:43 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question In-Reply-To: <3CCD88DA.5050307@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > My question is this..... can I safely leave the PS cover off? If I > add a few of the factory screws the PS case/chassis is still quite > solid, it just does have the cover on the top, or by the drives. > Basically, it removes two out of six sides. I'd want to do this for a > bit more cooling, since the fan would have less obstruction. Plus, I > think it looks lind of cool too :-) Would I have problems with EMF > emmisions effecting the computer's operations? Leaving the cover off of the power supply would greatly increase the chance of contacting one of the high voltage components in the supply. Typically, there are voltages in excess of 300V in those types of switching supplies. It is often present on the chopper's heatsink(s), and at a potential to ground, since most of those supplies simply use a voltage doubler on the mains voltage. All that being said, I don't think leaving the cover off of the power supply will help the cooling situation much, and would expose anyone working on the system to the high voltages present in the supply. > The main case cover would be installed.... would I have other EMF > troubles, if I leave the top of the PS off? There is a possibility of EMF troubles, but there is also the possibility of RFI issues. -Toth From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 15:35:36 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > They don't pay those costly License fees and support contracts > out of ignorance. todays mainframes are exteamly muscular, > having taken advantage of the same technical advancements Indeed. I would probably buy one regardless of the cost that the power bill would cause me. :) > Well, i had assumed most would know that a box that typically > served 5000 seats or more was powerfull even as most might > not know what it is that really sets these things apart. That's exactly where the misunderstanding came in, I think. It's taken as obvious, for the most part, but your statement that the entire campus full of hardware would be emulated on a single peesee seemed to say differently. At any rate, it makes much more sense now. > Channel I/O for example, translating to terms and concepts > more familiar to those without OPER console time, imagine a > "PC" where every orifice was pumped by its own dedicated > DMA controller, where you can have 65535 of these devices. > and fill em all up with no load on the CPU. Not having much time on mainframe systems, myself, I still imagined something like this, and you can pretty much infer it from talk of the things. > Remember when the mickysoft press release parroting nattering > nabob computer press was declaring the death of the mainframe ? They're not still doing it? That surprises me. > and very humorous events like when the idiot press would read a > product release about NT being ported to an FSIOP card, and run > to print "NT Ported to the mainframe ! " I would like to see that, actually -- the article, I mean. VM/NT -- Heh. I wonder what the "error number" is for all of the NT IOPs in the machine simultaneously jumbling up their RAM. > A FSIOP card, File Server I/O Processor, is a PC on a card that > plugs into the mainframe so that it can share mainframe DASD > (disk) or have a faster channel for I/O to PC based middleware, > it certainly isn't NT running on the mainframe in the manner > the hapless readers of these sorry articles was led to believe. I suppose such a product would be good if you need it. It could do better than to run NT. Maybe they should "port CP/M" to the mainframe. > As for CPU power, PC's are certainly as fast per CPU in a general > sense as a mainframe, but without the I/O capacity could never > hope to replace a mainframe anytime soon. I don't know exact numbers, but honestly, the CPU in a modern peesee isn't the weak spot at all. Generally there's some kind of bottleneck (or five) that needs repaired in the design. > The PC running something decent does rival the power of a > mainframe or a supercomputer of yesterday however, I wouldn't doubt that it might compare for certain (probably single-user) non-io-bound applications. I'm not sure I can make that conclusion for a supercomputer at all. When is "yesterday" in this context? :) > utter garbage that at last time i checked w2k needed 64megs > of ram for the installer to run ? how absurd ! Actually, I'd have expected it to need more than that. > Compare with the size of bsd/linux/unix that will still run on > a machine with 4megs or compare with a mainframe nucleus > and you see that they on the other hand, have stayed small > tight and fast. and assembler is still very mainstream > on the mainframe where thruput of massive loads is still > the focus. Your comment about mainframes having "stayed small" is oddly amusing, but perhaps it's because I got no sleep yesterday. > mips or so emulating 360/70/90 instructions is testament > that the lowly PC has become very muscular in its own right. Indeed. I'm sure there are some tasks to which a peesee is well suited, but the problem is -- aside from the common operating environment -- the baggage in the design, still hanging around from the beginning. (probably not too well-thought-out back then ;) They probably should have done something ground-up by now to take advantage of newer cores, bus technology, etc. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 29 15:40:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <000001c1efb8$e1566100$780aa8c0@gw1056735.issproinc.com> Message-ID: <001101c1efbe$191adc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What's the difference between the LISA format of the APEX source and the normal Apple][ format? Is it just the diskette format? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Zinserling" To: Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > > Hi .. > > I happen to have this Ancient 6502 Focal source code in Lisa format for the > Apple II computer > > > Jason Zinserling > > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Apr 29 15:53:44 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: PDP11 M8190 console + DIP switches / FPA Message-ID: >I am looking for the console bulkhead pinout and the DIP switch > description of the M8190 / KDJ11-B PDP11 QBus CPU module. I had a look > at the micronotes and googled around, but found nothing. You can find a manual over at http://scandocs.trailing-edge.com/micropdp11/volume1_system_cpus/EK-247AA-MG-001/thumbnails.html and you can find the related KDJ11-A info at: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp11/ (I believe that the KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B are similar but not identical). Antonio From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Apr 29 15:59:47 2002 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20020429135947.A6117@eskimo.eskimo.com> list classiccmp list classiccmp-digest From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 29 16:04:30 2002 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <000c01c1efc1$751c4c80$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> From: Christopher Smith >I suppose such a product would be good if you need it. It could do >better than to run NT. Maybe they should "port CP/M" to the mainframe. It has been done. At one time you could get "cp/m processor" cards for VAX, PDP-11 and several other machines. Most had several Z80s for multiple users. Allison From dave at naffnet.org.uk Mon Apr 29 16:16:01 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: QBUS VAX and M7941 under VMS - info needed! References: <3CBF3CCF.2F6CA603@naffnet.org.uk> Message-ID: <3CCDB811.5F3F4652@naffnet.org.uk> Dave Woodman wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a MicroVAX (BA123 enclosure, KA650 CPU) that I would like > to put to work... to this end I have two M7941 (DRV11) parallel I/O > cards that I would like to bring into service. The Micronotes say that > this card is compatible with the 22-bit QBUS, and I have the Field > Service print set so I can set the CSR and vectors to appropriate > values. > > Of course, VMS does not have a driver for these cards, but I am > not too frightened by the prospect of a little code - here lies the > problem! Can anyone tell me just how this card maps into the I/O space, > given the CSR? I would like to know just where to read from and write to > in order the drive the beastie... > Thanks to information recieved from Antonio Carlini and Carl Lowenstein these cards are now in service! The driver is a version of OADRIVER that I trawled up, but which needed some minor tweaks to its kitinstal.com in order to correctly install under OVMS 7.2. If anyone else needs a copy (either of the kitinstal.com or the kit itself) then I shall be glad to make it available. Cheers, Dave. From mythtech at mac.com Mon Apr 29 16:18:53 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question Message-ID: >If you're at all >worried about EMI, it might be reassuring to put some ferrous metal screen, >the sort used to repair, or scavenged from, OLD screen doors, not the new >ones, over the PSU's larger openings. Does the metal screen material you can buy at Home Depot or the likes work? I think it is made of Aluminum, but I've never really checked (as I find the nylon screen easier to work with, so that is what I have always bought when rescreening windows or doors) -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 29 16:36:06 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11) In-Reply-To: <3CCCB6D0.6ABF62CC@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20020429213606.75231.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The RKV11D is really an RK11D with a different bus interface... > > So DEC actually made a Qbus compatible controller for the RK05? Yes. I'm sure it was unpopular, but I do have one. > > > so the RKV11 is 16-bit address space. > > If necessary, you could add a bounce buffer to the device driver > to take care of the problem. I did this with the DYX.SYS > driver - worked very well. I know such things can be done. I have never written a driver to do it. I have also not ever written an RT-11 driver, but that wouldn't stop me. > It is also possible to run a KDJ11 system with just 56 KBytes of RAM! Well, yes; I'm sure it is, but there's no point to that. I might as well use an 11/23+ board (SIO and boot ROMs onboard - just add disk and RAM, and if you are using/simulating a TU-58, disk is optional). > As for running with RT11FB (or even RT11SJ which slows things down > too much), RT-11 will run Kermit very well in a 56 KByte memory > space. OK. I thought so, but I haven't run Kermit on an -11 in a very long time. > If you can copy the files to a SCSI hard drive, then the second > stage is a CD. If I had a Qbus (or Unibus) SCSI controller, I wouldn't have such a quandry. Available Qbus interfaces - RLV11, RLV12, RKV11D, DQ614 (haven't gotten it working yet), KDA50 (still in the box; haven't use it yet), RQDX(123) Available disks for the above: RL01, RL02, RK05J, various MFM disks DEC and non-DEC, RA70, RA81, RA60 Mostly, when I put together a Qbus PDP-11, it has an RL02 or an RQDX w/MFM drive on it. Those are my most "universal" drive sets. It's also why I never went very far with 2BSD - 2xRL02 is kind awkward, and MSCP isn't supported under 2.9BSD (and 2.11BSD requires a split I&D CPU which I only recently acquired). My expectation was to put an RLV11 or RLV12 in the same box as the RKV11D and squirt a physical backup out the serial port, even if I had to write the squirter myself. If I could use Kermit-11, that would simplify transfer, as long as I had enough space to crunch full RK05 disk images to a file on, say, an RL02 pack (probably have enough room for one image + RT-11 + utilities on an RL01 pack, but the RL01 drives are not here and the RL02 is). What I _really_ need to do is perform this feat in pieces - I have a couple of RL02 packs I need to archive, some with my own work from 15 years ago that I left behind with the boss that he later gave back to me and does not exist anywhere else in the world. I was thinking of making a physical transfer utility that I can tell "do the front 50%, now the back 50%", etc., and export the backup in stripes and recombine, probably under UNIX with "cat". > I don't know if this request is reasonable, but anyone who can loan me > a Qbus RK05 controller can have the RK05 drive after I copy the > RK05 files to a SCSI hard drive. They can have the RK05 packs > as well. I'll consider this. Would you want me to test the RKV11D first? I'm in Ohio, so shipping becomes noticable overhead. I do need to get the RKV11D back - I need its cables and paddle card for my RK8E - same goodies and I need a working RK8E more than a working RKV11D. I can always move things back and forth, especially if the -8 is in the same rack or next to the RKV11D. I can't imagine needing both controllers at once. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Apr 29 16:32:17 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844EB@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Allison [mailto:ajp166@bellatlantic.net] > It has been done. At one time you could get "cp/m processor" > cards for VAX, > PDP-11 and several other machines. Most had several Z80s for multiple > users. Not exactly "mainframe," but do they come in QBus modules? :) That would make one hell of a CP/M machine. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rhb57 at vol.com Mon Apr 29 16:40:35 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And to mention that the PS cover helps guide the airflow thru the heatsinks and by leaving the cover off the fan isn't drawing the air through the designed path. You can leave the lid off the PC without a problem but the PS (as Toth states) is very dangerous and actually detrimental to the cooling process. A better fan, in terms of more CFM pulled, is the better way to go. I've pulled fans from old NCR microchannel machines that have variable speed, controlled by a thermistor, that speeds the fan up when it gets warmer and I know new ones are still being made. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tothwolf Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:38 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Chad Fernandez wrote: > My question is this..... can I safely leave the PS cover off? If I > add a few of the factory screws the PS case/chassis is still quite > solid, it just does have the cover on the top, or by the drives. > Basically, it removes two out of six sides. I'd want to do this for a > bit more cooling, since the fan would have less obstruction. Plus, I > think it looks lind of cool too :-) Would I have problems with EMF > emmisions effecting the computer's operations? Leaving the cover off of the power supply would greatly increase the chance of contacting one of the high voltage components in the supply. Typically, there are voltages in excess of 300V in those types of switching supplies. It is often present on the chopper's heatsink(s), and at a potential to ground, since most of those supplies simply use a voltage doubler on the mains voltage. All that being said, I don't think leaving the cover off of the power supply will help the cooling situation much, and would expose anyone working on the system to the high voltages present in the supply. > The main case cover would be installed.... would I have other EMF > troubles, if I leave the top of the PS off? There is a possibility of EMF troubles, but there is also the possibility of RFI issues. -Toth From louiss at gate.net Mon Apr 29 16:47:28 2002 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Apple II Unidisk 3.5/LIRON card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 16:08:40 +0000, Rich Beaudry wrote: #I'm having a problem with an Apple IIe Platinum, and I hope you can help. #I recently acquired a LIRON 3.5" floppy controller card, and was looking #forward to using 3.5" disks on my AIIe. After some reading, it seemed that #the LIRON card would only work with a Unidisk 3.5" (model number starts with #"A2M"), and NOT with a 3.5" drive from, say, a IIgs (model number starts #with "A9M"). So, of course, I went and found a Unidisk 3.5" drive... This is correct. The LIRON card works with the Unidisk 3.5, Model A2M2053. # #The combination doesn't work, *even with every other card pulled*, so here #are my questions: Either the card, drive or cable is not functioning correctly. # #- Will the LIRON card work with the Unidisk 3.5" drive? My reading of #several FAQs says "yes", but maybe I misread something... Yes, and only yes. # #- Does anyone have docs for either the drive, or the card? There are no #switches or jumpers, and the installation seems obvious, but who knows, #maybe I missed something.... Plug and play. If the card is in the highest used slot, it will boot a properly formatted disk with ProDOS on it. # #- Can you boot from the 3.5" drive? Or is it only for storage, and you can #only boot with 5.25" drives? Yes, but it has to be in the highest used slot, or you can select the slot after booting from another device. I have had both bad LIRON cards and Unidisk 3.5 drives. If you don't have any other cards, drives, or machines (like a IIC+) to allow for an easy mix and match test, then locating the problem will be more complex. Louis From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 29 16:49:00 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020429214900.7335.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc wrote: > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > Dude. > > > Fire up your favorite Open Source browser. Go to > > > http://www.google.com > > > Do a search for this (quotation marks included): > > > > > > "Teach Grandpa to suck eggs" > > > > BTW Google doesn't find the quoted string... I got one hit with this... "teaching grandpa to suck eggs" And a bunch more by using the exact phraseology I heard growing up... "teach your grandma to suck eggs" With Google, spelling (and precise word selection) counts. > Argh. > Once again, what I thought was a universal expression turns out to be > a Texasism. I would count it as an American Colloquialism, but I don't think of the phrase as uniquely Texan. > I was 35 when I found that the entire English-speaking > world doesn't "put stuff up" (put stuff away). I don't think we "put stuff up" (except for curtains, wallpaper and posters ;-), but here, we talk about cars and dishes that "need washed" (as opposed to "needs wash*ing*" or "needs *to be* washed"). > "teaching Grandpa [or Grandma] to suck eggs" is analogous to > explaining long division to a physicist. > Or to explaining S/390 technology to Sridhar.... Or telling Tony how to solder... -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 29 16:57:55 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: Commodore PC-20-III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020429215755.8647.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > The disk seems to be around 20MB. I'm assuming this is *not* IDE. What do the cables look like? > I would guess it's an old ST506-interfaced drive. Alas the diagrams I > have don't mention a hard disk at all (it probably wasn't a Commodore > design, but a standard part). I have a "Colt" - it has a 40-pin *XT* IDE. It was a flash in the panopoly of disk variations in the 1980s... existed in only, IIRC, 20MB and 40MB varieties. Seagate models have an A/X at the end of the part number, WD end with X, ISTR. I can dig out exact part numbers if needed, but if you post your part number, it'll be easier to tell. For reasons I can't recall, I couldn't get a particular XT IDE drive to work on the internal 40-pin connector of my Colt, so I removed a hard-card from its frame (it was a later model _with_ XT-IDE) and put the short XT-IDE card in one of my three ISA slots, and mounted the WD drive where it would have gone if I'd hooked it up directly. Perhaps I missed a switch or something, but I could *not* get anything to work with the native controller. OTOH, the machine _was_ free, so perhaps the onboard controller is/was defective. XT IDE drives also appeared in the A590 and _could_ be stuck to an A2091, but you had to clean out the solder from the connector spot and install your own 40-pin header. I'm sure in this case it was the classic Commodore management cry to the Engineers to use up whatever parts they had 10E+06 crates of (cf. 2114 SRAMs in the VIC-20, et al.) -ethan ObLore - today is the 8th anniversary of the day Commodore "voluntarily" entered bankrupcy (29-Apr-1994 - check your "Deathbed Vigil" shirts). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 29 16:59:13 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:19 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: <1020111977.2446.1.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20020429215913.86447.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alex White wrote: > On Mon, 2002-04-29 at 20:35, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > Although until Alex fixes his +2.5V regulator, > > there's not much you can do ! > > Like I said, there's no way i'm fiddling with a PSU this powerful... Do Not Lick! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 29 17:02:50 2002 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Prime and Xerox, need fast SoCal pickup In-Reply-To: <001f01c1efae$0190a850$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Big iron doesn't show up in SoCal too often, and this one has to go ASAP. I talked to Linda this morning, but unfortunately she doesn't know a lot about the system, and worse I have zero and I mean zero space, and very little time available. They prefer immediate pickup, ie last day of the month, but indicated they could move the unit to a new storage and hold for a short time. Please contact Linda directly and soon. Message as I recieved it below. Hi Mike, Nice talking to you. We have Prime Computer (circa 1980) and a Xerox "Winchester" drive (circa 1985) which we would like to dispose of ASAP. As I told you we are moving and need to get these items out of our storage unit. Additionally we have a Minolta Microfische Model RP603 which we no longer use. Any assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated! Contact: Linda Locke Rod Gunn Associates, Inc. Seal Beach, CA (562) 598-7677 work (714) 749-5474 cell llocke@rgafa.com From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon Apr 29 16:10:26 2002 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules References: <000c01c1efc1$751c4c80$757b7b7b@rdfdomain..com> Message-ID: <3CCDB6C2.3020503@dragonsweb.org> Allison wrote: > From: Christopher Smith > >>I suppose such a product would be good if you need it. It could do >>better than to run NT. Maybe they should "port CP/M" to the mainframe. > > > It has been done. At one time you could get "cp/m processor" cards for VAX, > PDP-11 and several other machines. Most had several Z80s for multiple > users. > > Allison > > > > That tangentially reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask you, Allison. At one time you mentioned an S-100 9900 CPU you had, made by Technico, I believe, and a modified 99/4A console you had that also ran the software for it. I have an 4A AT keyboard IF with provision for 64K of 16-bit RAM and modified system ROMS on the way, and wondered if that software was available anywhere to play around with. Thanks, jbdigriz From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 29 18:17:52 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) Message-ID: <000d01c1efd4$1a0401e0$27efffcc@Shadow> > --- Doc wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > Dude. > > > > Fire up your favorite Open Source browser. Go to http://www.google.com > > > > Do a search for this (quotation marks included): > > > > "Teach Grandpa to suck eggs" > > > BTW Google doesn't find the quoted string... > I got one hit with this... "teaching grandpa to suck eggs" > > And a bunch more by using the exact phraseology I heard growing up... > > "teach your grandma to suck eggs" > > With Google, spelling (and precise word selection) counts. > > > Argh. > > Once again, what I thought was a universal expression turns out to be > > a Texasism. > > I would count it as an American Colloquialism, but I don't think of the > phrase as uniquely Texan. Today, we might get more mileage out of this with a slight retooling: "You don't teach Gollem to suck eggses" ;) From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 29 18:29:27 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) In-Reply-To: <20020429214900.7335.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Doc wrote: > > I was 35 when I found that the entire English-speaking > > world doesn't "put stuff up" (put stuff away). > > I don't think we "put stuff up" (except for curtains, wallpaper and > posters ;-), but here, we talk about cars and dishes that "need washed" > (as opposed to "needs wash*ing*" or "needs *to be* washed"). What really drives my (Massachusetts-born) Spousal Equivalent up the wall is when I'm [about to, going to] "fixing to" do something. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 29 18:44:10 2002 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Microfiche printer: Re: Prime and Xerox, need fast SoCal pickup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Mike Ford wrote: > Big iron doesn't show up in SoCal too often, and this one has to go > ASAP. I talked to Linda this morning, but unfortunately she doesn't > know a lot about the system, and worse I have zero and I mean zero > space, and very little time available. They prefer immediate pickup, > ie last day of the month, but indicated they could move the unit to a > new storage and hold for a short time. Please contact Linda directly > and soon. > > Message as I recieved it below. > > Hi Mike, Nice talking to you. We have Prime Computer (circa 1980) > and a Xerox "Winchester" drive (circa 1985) which we would like to > dispose of ASAP. As I told you we are moving and need to get these > items out of our storage unit. Additionally we have a Minolta > Microfische Model RP603 which we no longer use. Any assistance you ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > can provide would be greatly appreciated! > > Contact: Linda Locke > Rod Gunn Associates, Inc. Seal Beach, CA > (562) 598-7677 work (714) 749-5474 cell > llocke@rgafa.com That Minolta Microfiche RP603 unit is a professional level microfiche printing system. Whoever wants to print and scan fiche needs to check into this one. I'd do it myself, but I don't think shipping would work too well for one of these, since they are not small or lightweight. -Toth From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 29 18:52:32 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) In-Reply-To: <000d01c1efd4$1a0401e0$27efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > Today, we might get more mileage out of this with a slight > retooling: > > "You don't teach Gollem to suck eggses" I likes it! Doc From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Apr 29 17:53:29 2002 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: PDP11 M8190 console + DIP switches / FPA References: <20020429221116.E25286@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3CCDCEE9.CC114EBE@nktelco.net> > I am looking for the console bulkhead pinout and the DIP switch > description of the M8190 / KDJ11-B PDP11 QBus CPU module. I had a look > at the micronotes and googled around, but found nothing. I got the following from somewhere with the name 1183.dip (sunsite maybe): dip switch near handle 1 on disables console terminal (factory use only) 2-4 off off off boot auto according to the dialog mode settings off off on boot dev. # 1 in dialog mode settings. off on off " " 2 " off on on " " 3 " on off off " " 4 " on off on " " 5 " on on off " " 6 " on on on if sw. 1 off, power up into ODT if sw. 1 on , run self-test disg. in a cont loop 5 off enters dialog mode on power up 6-8 on on on 38400 baud rate console. on on off 19200 on off on 9600 on off off 4800 off on on 2400 off on off 1200 off off on 600 off off off 300 All of these s/b turned OFF if you have the console patch panel rotary switch connected to the cpu. rotary switch positions definitions. switch pos.s v v baud rate auto boot dialog mode 38400 0 8 19200 1 9 9600 2 10 4800 3 11 2400 4 12 1200 5 13 600 6 14 300 7 15 > Jochen -chuck From dquebbeman at acm.org Mon Apr 29 19:17:57 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) Message-ID: <001801c1efdc$8015a3f0$27efffcc@Shadow> > On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- Doc wrote: > > > > I was 35 when I found that the entire English-speaking > > > world doesn't "put stuff up" (put stuff away). > > > > I don't think we "put stuff up" (except for curtains, wallpaper and > > posters ;-), but here, we talk about cars and dishes that "need washed" > > (as opposed to "needs wash*ing*" or "needs *to be* washed"). > > What really drives my (Massachusetts-born) Spousal Equivalent up the > wall is when I'm [about to, going to] "fixing to" do something. Oh, we have a great one around here- "take and leave", as in "take and leave your car here, and we'll fix it". It's likely related to the usage as in "he's taken to drinking", which around here becomes "he's took to drinkun". A drinking buddy who was a mechanic would flame on when he'd hear that phrase. "Fair to middlin'" is my usual response to the casual how-are-you. It gets a lot of raised eyebrows at my current orkplace, but then we have many transplants there, and I'm local. -dq From rhb57 at vol.com Mon Apr 29 19:37:25 2002 From: rhb57 at vol.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Look for brass screen, local "old style" hardware store. Better conduction which makes a better EMI/RFI sheild and less prone to corrosion over ferrous materials except those that are galvanically coated. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chris Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:19 PM To: Classic Computer Subject: Re: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question >If you're at all >worried about EMI, it might be reassuring to put some ferrous metal screen, >the sort used to repair, or scavenged from, OLD screen doors, not the new >ones, over the PSU's larger openings. Does the metal screen material you can buy at Home Depot or the likes work? I think it is made of Aluminum, but I've never really checked (as I find the nylon screen easier to work with, so that is what I have always bought when rescreening windows or doors) -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 29 18:33:58 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11) In-Reply-To: <3CCCB6D0.6ABF62CC@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Apr 28, 2 10:58:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 795 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/38fde5b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 29 18:38:02 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Starting point In-Reply-To: <20020429060013.OOGI7584.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Apr 29, 2 00:20:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1156 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/383725f9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 29 19:10:11 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Starting point In-Reply-To: <00ed01c1ef62$326ca920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 29, 2 03:42:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3618 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/08916613/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 29 19:39:44 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) In-Reply-To: <20020429214900.7335.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 29, 2 02:49:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/2adb004b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 29 19:33:08 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question In-Reply-To: <3CCD88DA.5050307@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 29, 2 01:54:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1012 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/ec82dc94/attachment.ksh From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 29 20:11:05 2002 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) In-Reply-To: <001801c1efdc$8015a3f0$27efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > "Fair to middlin'" is my usual response to the casual how-are-you. > It gets a lot of raised eyebrows at my current orkplace, but then ^^^^^^^^ Is this related to the Gollum phrasing? I do "fair to middlin" too. Nobody round here blinks. Doc From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 29 20:55:26 2002 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: bubble bags Message-ID: <200204300155.UAA17895@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Well, I went and bought a ton of those pink anti-static bubble bags so I can properly store my spare DEC boards. If anyone wants to buy a bunch, just let me know. I'll have to go dig up the sales slip and figure out a cost. They just barely fit a hex DEC board, and thus they easily fit a Quad board. 10" X 15.5" plus a 1.5" sealable lip. Though personally I dont bother sealing the bags. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From tarsi at binhost.com Mon Apr 29 22:14:37 2002 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: YangTech Electric VIP Model PC800 Message-ID: <02042922143700.15419@simon> Anyone seen one of these buggers before? It's a Yangtech Electric Co. Ltd. VIP Model PC800 desktop computer. Made in Taiwan. Looks like a 8088 or 80286 Intel CPU, but I can't seem to find chips with significant marks. Has one 20MB MFM HD on it, a 5.25 and a 3.5 floppy. Durn thing doesn't boot, and I can't find docs or anything on it. Any information is handy...likely it's not a significant find, but I'm intrigued nonetheless. Thanks, Tarsi 210 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 29 22:17:50 2002 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <001001c1eedc$db86e0b0$51f19a8d@ajp166> <3CCDA8D3.A1C110CF@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3CCE0CDE.B9537175@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen wrote: > Which remains me : I really ought to do somehng with those 5718, 5840 and 6112 > pico-tubes ( what is the correct name ) i've got . > Anybody any pointers for schematics ( small radio ) with these tubes ? > I believe it was discussed before on the list. Why not a nice small 1 tube radio, if you can get the data sheets on the tubes? www.tubesandmore.com for parts. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From vaxman at earthlink.net Mon Apr 29 23:44:19 2002 From: vaxman at earthlink.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: <1020109472.3873.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: I have a L0006 which is what I suspect yours also is. If you read the 11/750 diagnostic manual, it explains some of what the board could do. Basically, it functions like the 11/05 in an 11/780 or the 8085 in an 11/730. In fact, this board should have an 8085 on it? Take a look at the 11/750 FAQ available in the vax archive (sevensages.org). Clint On 29 Apr 2002, Alex White wrote: > > Antonio, you spoilsport :-P > > I was going to ask Alex for his phone number! > > *grins* that's what I thought it would be for - how other many people > have one, have seen one, or have used one that are on here then? > > Alex > -- > > My computer's heavier than yours. > > From kfergaso at swbell.net Mon Apr 29 23:53:53 2002 From: kfergaso at swbell.net (Kelly Fergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Request for Help with the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC Coprocessor board) In-Reply-To: <171XO9-1oTYI4C@fwd01.sul.t-online.com> Message-ID: Its taken me a while, but... at www.fergason.net/definicon are the fortran and utility disks for the 68020 Definicon board. dcp386 was the program I used to create the images originally (grabbed off simtel). I am still working on the loader disk, and will work on documentation as soon as I can. Please be patient, its a DSL line. Kelly -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bernd Kopriva Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 1:59 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Cc: morgarws@mh.us.sbphrd.com Subject: Re: Request for Help with the Definicon DSI-32 (NS32032 PC Coprocessor board) Hi Bill, i saw, that you were bidding for such a board on eBay yesterday (btw. i tried to get that board as well, but i was also unsuccessful :-( ) ... Do you already have such a board, but without documentation ? I grabbed some months ago a Definicion 68020 board, but without any software and documentation, i had no luck until now ... If you get the software/doucmentation you are asking for, is there a chance, that you will send me a copy ? (I still hope to get a 32032 board sometimes/somewhere). On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:31:49 -0400, morgarws@mh.us.sbphrd.com wrote: >I'm looking for any documentation and software for the Definicon DSI-32 >(NS32032 PC/XT coprocessor board). ... anything would be useful! > >Thanks in Advance, > >Bill Morgart >morgarws@Molbio.sbphrd.com > > Thanks Bernd Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd@kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 30 00:06:18 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question References: Message-ID: <3CCE264A.5030709@internet1.net> Ok, well after reading everyone's replies, I guess I'll reassemble it as produced by IBM. I didn't realize that some of those heatsinks were live. Looking at the machine, I don't think airflow would be an issue with this particular case and power supply. The side towards the drive bays is mostly open and the top is very close to the back of the case cover. However, I'm still reinstalling it because of the electrical hazards mentioned :-) What I may do is poke a hole in the top of the case, and mount a big fan. How well would a 24volt fan run on 12 volts? Since it's DC it's fine, right? It's just slower? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tony Duell wrote: > I wouldn't. There's a lot of exposed live metalwork in most PC PSUs > (including the heatsink(s) on the chopper transistor(s). If you touch > that it could be unpleasant or even fatal. If a stray low-voltage cable > touches it, you'll end up blowing ever chip in the machine, most likely. > > It will disturb the airflow over the PSU components, and may end up > making the PSU hotter!. I'd add an extra fan if you're worried about this. > > -tony > > > From rmoyers at nop.org Tue Apr 30 00:08:15 2002 From: rmoyers at nop.org (Raymond Moyers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844E9@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: <200204300508.g3U58Lw21055@Fubar.nop.org> On Monday 29 April 2002 15:35, you wrote: >> todays mainframes are exteamly muscular > Indeed. I would probably buy one regardless of the cost that the > power bill would cause me. :) Well the newer ones are getting better, the new fridge sized boxes require a fraction of the cooling the old ones did >> but your statement that the entire campus full of hardware >> would be emulated on a single peesee, seemed to say >> differently. Ok perspective is needed, here is a picture http://www.nop.org/misc/pics/360370/360-75_2075_Computer_Room.jpg Add in the other stuff that would fill up a room or two on most the other buildings on campus, depending on year you have card punches 3174 term controllers really messy wire closets and racks of IBM MAU's ( the token ring equ of a HUB ) this is long before things started getting small, a IBM 3864 modem was a hefty 30 pounds or so. So what i said was correct, the herc emu is emulating the majority of all that stuff, dasd,, tapes,, card deck with an emulated "reader" the 3174's and the terminals, that campus full of stuff running virtualized on your PC. > > Remember when the mickysoft press release parroting nattering > > nabob computer press was declaring the death of the mainframe ? > > They're not still doing it? That surprises me. Hard when they are busy posting stories about IBM's double digit growth i guess ;=) ( with IBM giving much of the credit to the iron penguins ;=) > > and very humorous events like when the idiot press would read a > > product release about NT being ported to an FSIOP card, and run > > to print "NT Ported to the mainframe ! " > > I would like to see that, actually -- the article, I mean. It was this crackpot on infoworld, but he wasnt alone, it was at the time when the press would talk about NT everywhere when it was knowwhere, i guess doing their part to create the illusion of "everyone else, why not you?" > > A FSIOP card, File Server I/O Processor, > I suppose such a product would be good if you need it. It could do > better than to run NT. Maybe they should "port CP/M" to the mainframe. Before that OS/2 and Netware was already on them. > > PC's are certainly as fast per CPU in a general sense > > as a mainframe, but without the I/O capacity could never > > hope to replace a mainframe anytime soon. > I don't know exact numbers, but honestly, the CPU in a modern peesee > isn't the weak spot at all. Generally there's some kind of bottleneck > (or five) that needs repaired in the design. Well a decent modern board is no slouch there either really http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/02q2/020424/index.html Give that a look at what comming w the hammer line You cant really trash PC I/O anymore, its right up there with everything else and surpasses all the old workstations, current PC I/O dont compete with a current mainframe, but what ever did ? There has been really large R&D sums spent on pushing PC performance. and its starting to show bigtime. In a way, comparing a mainframe to a PC is like a coal train to a dodge viper, sure the viper is faster, but lets see how well it does hooked to 80 hopper cars full of coal eh ? > I wouldn't doubt that it might compare for certain (probably single-user) > non-io-bound applications. I'm not sure I can make that conclusion for > a supercomputer at all. When is "yesterday" in this context? :) Well litteraly yesterday, dreamworks, pixar etc is going all linux for their stuff and the supercomputers people talk about these days on the www.top500.org list are linux clusters. Another example, look at www.ltsp.org, they are netbooting old retired PC's used a diskless xterminals and hanging up to 200 of them off a modern machine that the apps run on. It saves them bucks, and a machine not bloated down to a 486 with winblows can hump a good load these days. > > Compare with the size of bsd/linux/unix that will still run on > > a machine with 4megs or compare with a mainframe nucleus > Your comment about mainframes having "stayed small" is oddly amusing, Stay small they did, sure the linux kernel tree has grown with the in-tree driver count and branches for all the different hardware, the same tree builds for a sun alpha or s390. but the resultant built kernel has not grown much over the years, same for the mainframe, sure it has lots of services hanging around it but its core also has stayed very trim. One important object of kernel development is for the code to get smaller and faster consistent with the other goals. Linux, the BSD's and IBM's top line operating systems have done well here. My firewall DNS mail www and other sundres is still running on an old 486 EISA machine, and its just as happy running the same kernel and userspace as the 1000mhz linux box with the nvidia 3D card, runs fast on slow machines, runs all the faster on fast machines. The agenda for mickysoft dumbf**kware n co, however, seems to be ""cover up any hardware performance gains ( and existing hardware) with bloat, forcing the market to buy new boxes and end up with no gain at all."" > the baggage in the design, still hanging around from the beginning. > (probably not too well-thought-out back then ;) They probably should have > done something ground-up by now to take advantage of newer cores, bus > technology, etc. My main beaf with x86 is register starvation, at least AMD is doing something about it. c++ for example, eats a register for "this" and on a register starved cpu it hurts far more than others that have more registers, this type of thing is perhaps why some fare well by compare despite slower clock speeds. Its hard to ignore raw speed however, what the x86 lacks archtectually its seems to be making it up with brute force. Raymond From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 30 00:16:56 2002 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Starting point Message-ID: <20020430051833.NSSZ17991.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > Do I have to be consistent all the time? :-) Only if you want to maintain your reputation ;>) > More seriously, for testing an interface, particularly if you're just > starting out, it does make sense to start from a simple working computer > (ZX81, CoCo, Apple ][, PC-with-ISA-slots-running MS-DOS, etc). It > eliminates a lot of variables. Thanks for the confirmation. At this point in my life I realize I will never have the time to learn enough about electronics to design and build a computer from scratch. > But if you want to make a complete new computer system (which is really what > these ZX81 projects sound like), you are possibly better off starting > with just the CPU chip. The ZX81 projects which I am aware of all have one thing in common: they maintain the "flavor" of the original machine. This includes Sinclair BASIC, the screen font, and the rest of the ROM. Beyond that, it's wide open. If you come to our meeting next March (Germany), you'll see what I mean. How about it? The entire weekend, with meals and room, is only US$50. Glen 0/0 From dave at naffnet.org.uk Tue Apr 30 01:24:12 2002 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) References: <001801c1efdc$8015a3f0$27efffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <3CCE388C.4D40F964@naffnet.org.uk> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > [ text that used to be ... ] > > "Fair to middlin'" is my usual response to the casual how-are-you. > It gets a lot of raised eyebrows at my current orkplace, but then > we have many transplants there, and I'm local. > > -dq "Fair to middlin" is in use across the pond:- I have used it all my life here where English started (Anglo-Saxon with Latin and Danish influences, infused heavily with the Norman tongue). I also recall my step-grandfather in Suffolk being completely at home with the expression. Just chipping in my tuppence-ha'penny, Dave. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 30 03:45:44 2002 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) References: <001801c1efdc$8015a3f0$27efffcc@Shadow> <3CCE388C.4D40F964@naffnet.org.uk> Message-ID: <01db01c1f023$6afde3f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Woodman" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > [ text that used to be ... ] > > > > "Fair to middlin'" is my usual response to the casual how-are-you. > > It gets a lot of raised eyebrows at my current orkplace, but then > > we have many transplants there, and I'm local. > > > > -dq > > "Fair to middlin" is in use across the pond:- I have used it all my life here > where English started (Anglo-Saxon with Latin and Danish influences, infused > heavily with the Norman tongue). I also recall my step-grandfather in Suffolk > being completely at home with the expression. Fairly common in Oz as well. Cheers Geoff in Oz From meltie at myrealbox.com Tue Apr 30 04:57:33 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1020160656.2417.1.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 05:44, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > I have a L0006 which is what I suspect yours also is. If you read the > 11/750 diagnostic manual, it explains some of what the board could > do. Basically, it functions like the 11/05 in an 11/780 or the 8085 > in an 11/730. In fact, this board should have an 8085 on it? Take a > look at the 11/750 FAQ available in the vax archive (sevensages.org). Why whould it have been left behind in my 11/750 though? Shouldn't it have been taken when the contract ended? Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 30 05:40:51 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11) In-Reply-To: <20020429213606.75231.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3CCCB6D0.6ABF62CC@compsys.to> <20020429213606.75231.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020430124051.A27826@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 02:36:06PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > and MSCP isn't supported under 2.9BSD Wasn't there someone who wrote a MSCP driver or 2.9BSD recently? Check the PUPS mailing list archive... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From hansp at aconit.org Tue Apr 30 06:40:13 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor sources now available Message-ID: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> Following an earlier thread on AIM-65, I would like to announce the availablility at www.aconit.org/hbp/AMI-65 of source files which assemble to the AIM-65 ROM monitor. The sources generally follow the PDF scans also on that page execpt in a couple of instances where source code changes were necessitated by bugs in the assembler. Hopefully I will fix the assembler soon and the original sources will then assemble clean. Also included on that page is a 6502 assembler (C source and DOS executable) slightly modified from a version picked off the net. -- hbp From Lists at joules.org Mon Apr 29 17:00:50 2002 From: Lists at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> References: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> Message-ID: In message <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844D6@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>, Christopher Smith writes >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] > >> Have you looked at "Concurrent CP/M-86"? > >"Concurrent DOS" in later versions, right? > I used to use an ICL Quattro. This had both Concurrent CP/M86 and C-DOS on it. They were IIRC quite different. For it's day the Quattro was quite an impressive machine.. 8086 with 1Mb RAM running 4 terminals each capable of running 4 sessions. I used to be able to get the secretarial staff word processing with one finger when doing a DBMS compile on one virtual terminal whilst sorting a file with another ;-) The later ones had a 286 in them. IIRC they had something like a 10MB hard drive in them -- Regards Pete "Time flies like an arrow and fruit flies like a banana" From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Apr 30 07:32:53 2002 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Indigos and such (Was Re: IRIX) References: Message-ID: Are Personal Irises good for anything? I've got two, a 25 and a 35 and they seem to work but I don't have a monitor or keyboard for either. I'd love to run IRIX or anything on them to round out my super-heterogeneous network. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar the POWERful" To: "Jochen Kunz" Cc: Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Re: IRIX > On Fri, 26 Apr 2002, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > > Ooooh. I'd love to have an R4400 Indigo. > > Hmmmm. I can remember somthing like that it is possible to put the > > 150MHz R4400 CPU module from an Indigo2 in an Indigo. R4400 150MHz > > Indigo2s are quite common.... > > Can someone confirm this? I might have to go shopping. > > Peace... Sridhar > > -- > "How do you fight such a savage?" > > "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." > -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 07:35:32 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor sources now available References: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> Message-ID: <001201c1f043$84e8aa00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I got a 'couldn't find it" sort of error trying to visit that site. I tried both spellings of AIM-65, BTW, so something must be broken/bottlenecked. Any suggestions? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans B Pufal" To: "classiccmp" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 5:40 AM Subject: AIM-65 monitor sources now available > Following an earlier thread on AIM-65, I would like to announce the > availablility at www.aconit.org/hbp/AMI-65 of source files which > assemble to the AIM-65 ROM monitor. > > The sources generally follow the PDF scans also on that page execpt in a > couple of instances where source code changes were necessitated by bugs > in the assembler. Hopefully I will fix the assembler soon and the > original sources will then assemble clean. > > Also included on that page is a 6502 assembler (C source and DOS > executable) slightly modified from a version picked off the net. > > -- hbp > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 30 07:36:27 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: M0006 Message-ID: >Why whould it have been left behind in my 11/750 though? Shouldn't it >have been taken when the contract ended? They should have collected it when the machine came off maintenance. Someone probably forgot. Not too uncommon towards the end. Antonio From hansp at aconit.org Tue Apr 30 08:10:20 2002 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor sources now available References: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3CCE97BC.603@aconit.org> Hans B Pufal wrote: > Following an earlier thread on AIM-65, I would like to announce the > availablility at www.aconit.org/hbp/AMI-65 of source files which > assemble to the AIM-65 ROM monitor. Ooops, my turn to get a link wrong! That should read http://www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/ thanks to the folks who alerted me off list. I should also have mentioned Ethan Dicks and Dwight Elvey in my original message for their help in typing in the PDF scans. I take responsibility for all typos! -- hbp From meltie at myrealbox.com Tue Apr 30 08:54:40 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1020174883.2314.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 13:36, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >Why whould it have been left behind in my 11/750 though? Shouldn't it > >have been taken when the contract ended? > > They should have collected it when > the machine came off maintenance. Someone > probably forgot. Not too uncommon > towards the end. So long as I don't have to give it back. -- My computer's heavier than yours. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 30 09:25:07 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844EF@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Doc [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > On Mon, 29 Apr 2002, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > It gets a lot of raised eyebrows at my current orkplace, but then > Is this related to the Gollum phrasing? Read the alt.sysadmin.recovery FAQ. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 30 09:36:58 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Indigos and such (Was Re: IRIX) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844F0@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jason McBrien [mailto:jbmcb@hotmail.com] > Are Personal Irises good for anything? I've got two, a 25 > and a 35 and > they seem to work but I don't have a monitor or keyboard for Good for running IRIX 4.x or 5.x. They have no audio without a special option, possibly, so you'll want to check the configurations out. Also, as with other SGI systems, the graphics boards can make a big diference. Make sure they have all the plastic "skin," or they'll have cooling problems. I think the monitor and keyboard are the same as Indigo, but I'm not certain. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dittman at dittman.net Tue Apr 30 09:48:15 2002 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: M0006 In-Reply-To: from "Antonio Carlini" at Apr 30, 2002 01:36:27 PM Message-ID: <200204301448.g3UEmFS07303@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Why whould it have been left behind in my 11/750 though? Shouldn't it > >have been taken when the contract ended? > > They should have collected it when > the machine came off maintenance. Someone > probably forgot. Not too uncommon > towards the end. I don't know if they forgot or just didn't care. We had one of the remote access modems that connected to the console and after the system came off maintenance I disconnected the modem and set it aside. When the FS tech came the next time on another system I asked him what I should do with the modem and he said they weren't bothering to pick them up anymore so I could just trash it. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 30 10:11:49 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: "Toy" computers http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844F2@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond Moyers [mailto:rmoyers@nop.org] > Well the newer ones are getting better, the new fridge sized > boxes require a fraction of the cooling the old ones did I know, but power is somewhat expensive for me anyway ;) > getting small, a IBM 3864 modem was a hefty 30 pounds or so. Seen the "I put the nut on a rock, and I hit it with the modem" text file? > So what i said was correct, the herc emu is emulating the majority I didn't mean to say it wasn't. Just that you made it sound like one could completely replace a 390 with a peesee. If that's the case, you (rather, the people who own the 390 in question) should have never used a 390 in the first place. > of all that stuff, dasd,, tapes,, card deck with an emulated > "reader" the 3174's and the terminals, that campus full of stuff > running virtualized on your PC. One day I'll actually get around to trying it. > at the time when the press would talk about NT everywhere when > it was knowwhere, i guess doing their part to create the illusion > of "everyone else, why not you?" You mean NT finally got somewhere? :) > > I don't know exact numbers, but honestly, the CPU in a modern peesee > > isn't the weak spot at all. Generally there's some kind of > bottleneck > > (or five) that needs repaired in the design. > Well a decent modern board is no slouch there either really The boards aren't, but the disk I/O on most "consumer" systems is pretty bad, for instance. It should be possible to get better I/O out of them, especially if there are (as I hear) AMD boards with 64-bit PCI. > You cant really trash PC I/O anymore, its right up there > with everything else and surpasses all the old workstations, Might be a dangerous statement. There have been some pretty impressive workstations. Add that to the fact that some people consider a one-year-old machine "old." I won't argue that peesee hardware hasn't advanced. it's literally mind-blowing what they've done with it, given the origins of the thing. I just wish they'd started with a nicer architecture to begin with. > current PC I/O dont compete with a current mainframe, > but what ever did ? Well, other current mainframes, of course, possibly -- as you mentioned -- supercomputers, too. > There has been really large R&D sums spent on pushing PC > performance. and its starting to show bigtime. I'm sure. Just imagine what they could have done by pouring all of that cash into Alpha. > In a way, comparing a mainframe to a PC is like a coal train to a > dodge viper, sure the viper is faster, but lets see how well it > does hooked to 80 hopper cars full of coal eh ? I'll go along with that. > > a supercomputer at all. When is "yesterday" in this context? :) > Well litteraly yesterday, dreamworks, pixar etc is going all linux > for their stuff and the supercomputers people talk about these > days on the www.top500.org list are linux clusters. All? I haven't checked top500 recently, but there were certainly a few non-clusters in the top 20 last time I looked. My trouble with clusters is that they're not "tightly coupled" enough to make them very interesting to me, generally. Sure, they'll solve problems, but again, I/O is the bottleneck. > Another example, look at www.ltsp.org, they are netbooting old > retired PC's used a diskless xterminals and hanging up to 200 > of them off a modern machine that the apps run on. I've considered doing something like that just for fun, and it's interesting, but as far as being a "cluster," I'm not sure it would qualify in my book. :) Or did you mean it as an example of something else? > It saves them bucks, and a machine not bloated down > to a 486 with winblows can hump a good load these days. Windows is up to 486 performance now? You wouldn't know it to use windows 2k on the pentium 5xx at work. > > Your comment about mainframes having "stayed small" is > oddly amusing, > Stay small they did, sure the linux kernel tree has grown with the They've certainly "gotten small," in hardware. I can't argue that the software isn't efficient, either. > in-tree driver count and branches for all the different hardware, > the same tree builds for a sun alpha or s390. It's not so much the size of the tree that bothers me in general with Linux, but the size of the finished kernel. I do still use it occasionally on hardware, and it really annoyed me when I had to start using the bzImage target for make ;) I don't think it's in the drivers, either, but in the kernel somewhere, that it's gotten larger. There could be a good reason for it, but I'd like to see some of the stuff optionally removed so that my kernels can go back to being a few hundred kbytes uncompressed. Admittedly, loadable modules help. > but the resultant built kernel has not grown much over the years, > same for the mainframe, sure it has lots of services hanging around > it but its core also has stayed very trim. In relation to the memory capacity of the hardware on which it runs, you're absolutely right. I'd still like to see it trimmed some. > One important object of kernel development is for the code to > get smaller and faster consistent with the other goals. > Linux, the BSD's and IBM's top line operating systems have > done well here. I can't name any non-microsoft product that hasn't done ok. > My firewall DNS mail www and other sundres is still running on an > old 486 EISA machine, and its just as happy running the same > kernel and userspace as the 1000mhz linux box with the > nvidia 3D card, runs fast on slow machines, runs all the faster > on fast machines. I hope you re-compiled specifically for the CPUs. There are some optimizations that the compiler could make differently for 486 vs. Pentium (I assume it's 100Mhz Pentium) that could make a difference in performance. > The agenda for mickysoft dumbf**kware n co, however, seems > to be ""cover up any hardware performance gains ( and existing > hardware) with bloat, forcing the market to buy new boxes > and end up with no gain at all."" Agenda? I don't know about that. I honestly don't care what microshaft is thinking. The result, though, is as you say. > My main beaf with x86 is register starvation, at least AMD is doing > something about it. Ok, this is floating off-topic again, but do you mean in their 64-bit core, or in some 32 bit chip? > c++ for example, eats a register for "this" and on a register > starved cpu it hurts far more than others that have more > registers, this type of thing is perhaps why some fare well > by compare despite slower clock speeds. There's always "virtual registers." > Its hard to ignore raw speed however, what the x86 lacks > archtectually its seems to be making it up with brute force. That's true. I won't argue that it's not effective, but it's the wrong way to do it ;) Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 30 10:35:41 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Tape Crimper for 7/9-Track Magtape Message-ID: <000701c1f05c$b0bb0ab0$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> One of these with the Digital label is going for ten bucks on E-Pay, with a thirty-buck buy-it-now and a ten buck S&H. Too high, but these are pretty obscure and getting moreso. Anyone got a pile of them? -dq From cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu Tue Apr 30 11:02:08 2002 From: cdl at proxima.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) Message-ID: <200204301602.AA10711@proxima.ucsd.edu.UCSD.EDU> > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:49:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Googling and "egg-sucking" (was Re: "Toy" computers...) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > In-Reply-To: > > --- Doc wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 28 Apr 2002, Doc wrote: > > > > > > Dude. > > > > Fire up your favorite Open Source browser. Go to > > > > http://www.google.com > > > > Do a search for this (quotation marks included): > > > > > > > > "Teach Grandpa to suck eggs" > > > > > > BTW Google doesn't find the quoted string... > > I got one hit with this... > "teaching grandpa to suck eggs" > > And a bunch more by using the exact phraseology I heard growing up... > > "teach your grandma to suck eggs" > > With Google, spelling (and precise word selection) counts. > > > Argh. > > Once again, what I thought was a universal expression turns out to be > > a Texasism. > > I would count it as an American Colloquialism, but I don't think of the > phrase as uniquely Texan. Hey, guys. Simplify. A Google search on the phrase "suck eggs" leads to a clear explanation of the historical use of the phrase, dating back to the 16th century in English, and older in other languages. < http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-tea1.htm > carl From celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 30 11:13:04 2002 From: celigne at celigne.freeserve.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: M0006 References: <1020174883.2314.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <3CCEC290.E22934FB@celigne.freeserve.co.uk> Alex White wrote: > > On Tue, 2002-04-30 at 13:36, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > > > They should have collected it when the machine came off > > maintenance. Someone probably forgot. Not too uncommon > > towards the end. > > So long as I don't have to give it back. Heh heh. I've still got a "loan" VAX that got lost when there was a fire at one of DEC's UK sites and the paperwork disappeared. Best pack of Swan Vestas I ever bought. From caprio at dcms.com Tue Apr 30 11:21:23 2002 From: caprio at dcms.com (Don Caprio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: ARK files Message-ID: <200204301621.g3UGLNQI029285@dcms.com> I picked up a bunch of CPM archives from CPMUG. The files end with the ARK file extension. I've tried the unark16.exe I picked up from the oak.oakland.edu site but I can't seem to get them to unpack. What MS-DOS command works on these archives or do I need to fetch a CP/M version and run under a CP/M emulator? From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Apr 30 14:20:11 2002 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: R.I.P. for D.I.Y. References: <3CCD95AD.E1DF7822@bluewin.ch> <3CCD96FF.8203CAFD@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3CCEEE6B.2C5A7247@bluewin.ch> > > > Jos > > So, what about http://www.pcb-pool.com in germany ? > You can send eagle *.brd files in ... > > cheers Thanks for the tip. I will check that out. Jos From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 30 12:08:55 2002 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: ARK files In-Reply-To: <200204301621.g3UGLNQI029285@dcms.com> from Don Caprio at "Apr 30, 2002 09:21:23 am" Message-ID: <200204301708.KAA13201@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I picked up a bunch of CPM archives from CPMUG. The files end with the > ARK file extension. I've tried the unark16.exe I picked up from the > oak.oakland.edu site but I can't seem to get them to unpack. ARK should be the same as ARC. You could probably use pkxarc if you can still find it. I think pkunpack will work as well. Does anyone know if WINZIP handles "ARC" type archives? > What MS-DOS command works on these archives or do I need to fetch a CP/M > version and run under a CP/M emulator? Eric From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 12:58:39 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: RKV11D vs RK11D (was Re: Anyone Care About RT-11) In-Reply-To: <20020430124051.A27826@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20020430175839.41768.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 02:36:06PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > and MSCP isn't supported under 2.9BSD > Wasn't there someone who wrote a MSCP driver or 2.9BSD recently? > Check the PUPS mailing list archive... Well... yes. Recently. I was playing with a magtape of 2.9BSD circa 1987, trying to load it onto my 11/24. Well... I _did_ load it onto my 11/24. I even dropped $300 on Terry Kennedy for a KT24 so I could have more RAM. What stopped me in my tracks was a lack of a decent disk, not that I could have afforded a UDA50 + SDI disk at the time. The best I was able to do personally was 3 RL02s on the same machine at the same time (by pooling my entire drive rack onto one controller). I might have been able to pick up a Unibus ESDI or SMD controller and a 100MB drive, but when I started all of this, I didn't even have a hard disk on my Amiga (that was $500 for 20MB MFM drive+controller, compared with $1,000 for a C-Net and 20MB SCSI drive, but that's another story). This was all before Linux, when running Unix at home was "L@@K R@RE!" Now, it's nothing special. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 13:16:19 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <000001c1eda2$f66c44a0$241defd1@DCOHOE> Message-ID: <20020430181619.55285.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Cohoe wrote: > I have one of these with manuals and acessories for the 8088, 8080, 6502 > and 6809. Cool. I have one with one pod - MC68000. I got it from my former employer; we used to make 68000-based serial boards. I've used it to debug the spare stock I got when the company closed, and to fix Amigas. The strangest use I put one to was as a part of an expensive 4K DRAM tester - take an 11/03 chassis, insert a quad-height CPU board with socketed DRAM, and a COMBOARD with the Fluke pod stuck to it. Turn everything on, put the Fluke in "UUT" mode (Unit Under Test) and boot the COMBOARD by twiddling the CSR via ODT. Kick on the DMA-enable bit on the COMBOARD the same way, then run a memory test of 4K starting at $40000000. This causes the COMBOARD to generate DMA cycles of Qbus space at 0000000 and up (through the shared-memory interface). Three somewhat expensive items of equipment when new, all to test some DRAM. I tested the RAM for my Gorf cabinet that way. Still have all the parts for the next time. > I recently ran across several other units with a few interface pods. I > looked at them before I found the one that I bought at a university > disposal sale, and I expect they are still available. I'll be returning > to the place where I saw them before Dayton. Excellent! I'm interested in pods I don't have, especially the 6502. I don't have as much need for Intel or Zilog pods, but I probably wouldn't turn one down. I will be at Dayton on Friday and perhaps Sunday, late, and live 1.5 hours away in any case. I would be interested in your investigations of any additional units and/or pods. Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 30 13:45:26 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Indigos and such (Was Re: IRIX) In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Apr 30, 2002 08:32:53 AM Message-ID: <200204301845.OAA26770@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jason McBrien once stated: > > Are Personal Irises good for anything? I've got two, a 25 and a 35 and > they seem to work but I don't have a monitor or keyboard for either. I'd > love to run IRIX or anything on them to round out my super-heterogeneous > network. I used a Personal Iris 4D 35 at school. It came with IRIX 3.3.2 which used NeWS (Network Window System) for the GUI which was quite fast (despite being based on PostScript) and easily extensible, but that was the last version of IRIX that supported NeWS. The next version, 4.0.x, dropped NeWS in favor of the X Windowing System. Now, outside the GUI, there weren't many other differences between 3.3.x and 4.0.x (I think the machine I used ended up running 4.0.5). I'm not sure what versions of IRIX past that would work, but if at all possible, skip the 5.x series of IRIX which sucked horribly. Now, the hardware ... I was not impressed with the hardware after four to five years of use. The graphics board had to be replaced, the fan unit was replaced three times, and the color monitor displayed graphics with a distinct shade of green. The ANSI-C compiler, however, rocked. -spc (Good luck) From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 30 13:48:06 2002 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:20 2005 Subject: Indigos and such (Was Re: IRIX) In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844F0@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Apr 30, 2002 09:36:58 AM Message-ID: <200204301848.OAA26790@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Christopher Smith once stated: > > > Are Personal Irises good for anything? I've got two, a 25 > > and a 35 and > > they seem to work but I don't have a monitor or keyboard for > > Make sure they have all the plastic "skin," or they'll have cooling > problems. Oh, I forgot about that. They may have a cooling problem with the plastic skin on, as I recall running mine (well, the school's but I had almost exclusive use of it) without the skin to keep it from overheating. -spc (Liked IRIX though) From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Apr 30 14:15:59 2002 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847862741C@exchange.olf.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/4aa67d0a/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 14:13:23 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays In-Reply-To: <01C1E736.86A82020@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20020430191323.65123.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> --- M H Stein wrote: > BTW, I've used 6821s & 6520s interchangeably as well without problems. I only mentioned it because someone either here or on the CBM Hackers list said they had problems substituting a 6821 for a 6520. Since I have tubes of 6821s and a small pad of 6520s, I was happy to verify the substitution (I have, in the meantime, traded a tube of one for a tube of the other across the pond, so I'm all set with both). > And I did find some extra DL1416s, although that won't help you with the > unit that doesn't have a display board I'd still be interested in them; I was considering making a replacement board that matches the original since I _do_ have the PIAs and that would be faster than engineering a replacement. I found a potential source of original (used) parts, but their web page is broken and they don't answer e-mail. Would you have 10-12 DL1416s? That would give me enough for two display boards and a spare or two for the future. Right now, my "spare" time is all focused on displays anyway - the LCDProc project (http://lcdproc.omnipotent.net/) is closing in on a new point release and I'm trying to debug a development environment to be able to add support for some new display hardware (PD3000 "pole displays" like you see attached to cash registers/tills). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Apr 30 14:10:31 2002 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Indigos and such (Was Re: IRIX) Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E017844F5@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner [mailto:spc@conman.org] > I used a Personal Iris 4D 35 at school. It came with IRIX > 3.3.2 which > used NeWS (Network Window System) for the GUI which was quite I didn't know IRIX ever used it. That's interesting. > fast (despite > being based on PostScript) and easily extensible, but that Despite being based on Postscript? :) Postscript must be easily more efficient than the X11 protocol ;) NeWS was (is) also supported under SunOS 4. For a while, the server was actually merged with the X11 server in a program called XNeWS. You could run the apps side-by-side. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From arlen.michaels at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 30 14:29:53 2002 From: arlen.michaels at sympatico.ca (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Futuredata 2300 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Florian, I believe this is the FutureData microprocessor development system sold around 1980-83 by GenRad, before Kontron bought the product line from them. This was a very cool, high-powered development tool in its day, for the popular 8-bit processors like 6802, 8085, Z80. You would edit and assemble your code on the FData. By plugging a 40-pin probe into the target hardware's cpu socket, you'd execute the code in the actual target hardware under control of the FData and its debugging software ("in-circuit emulation"). When you were satisfied with your code you could burn it to eprom and plug it and the processor chip back into the target hardware. These systems were populated with somewhat specific hardware and software to match the target microprocessor system you were designing. For example, the box would use a 6800 cpu card, 6800 in-circuit emulator pod, and native 6800-coded OS for Motorola work; an 8085 cpu, pod, and an 8085-coded OS for Intel development. The proprietary operating system was called RDOS and worked more or less the same for each platform but, as I indicated, the OS and the applications were coded natively for each processor they supported. They also sold a structured Basic compiler called SBasic for the 8085/Z80. I might even have a copy of the 8085 RDOS here; I will look for a floppy. -- Arlen Michaels arlen.michaels@sympatico.ca > From: Florian Mayer > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:09:47 +0200 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Futuredata 2300 > > Hi, > > I've got such a FutureData System with 8085 CPU. It's modell type is > 2300-9402. It's with an 8 ich double floppy drive and some cards. The cases > (especially > from the floppy) are strongly scratched. The CPU seem to work, it shows the > FutureData logo and a Prompt ( > ) on the screen but nothing else. > I have no idea what it is or what I can do with it. Where can I find an > operating system for it? Please help me. > > Greetings from Germany, > Flori > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 30 14:39:28 2002 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor sources now available In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: AIM-65 monitor sources now available" (Apr 30, 6:35) References: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> <001201c1f043$84e8aa00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10204302039.ZM14579@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 30, 6:35, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I got a 'couldn't find it" sort of error trying to visit that site. I tried > both spellings of AIM-65, BTW, so something must be broken/bottlenecked. Any > suggestions? Try http://www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/ (transpose AMI to AIM, remove the hyphen, and add a trailing '/' because it's a directory) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 14:41:02 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Mainframe emulation and serial comms (was Re: "Toy" computers) In-Reply-To: <200204270742.g3R7gVh11133@Fubar.nop.org> Message-ID: <20020430194102.93521.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> --- Raymond Moyers wrote: > On Wednesday 24 April 2002 22:22, you wrote: > > If it's a mainframe, then the campus is the enclosure, > > while if it's a desktop, it's pretty obvious what that is. > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > terms over the network etc etc. I have visited the site, but my question is apparently not frequent enough... from those who know, will "Hercules" talk BISYNC or SNA down a sync serial pipe? I have some toys here that emulate PU Type 2s (i.e., include a 3274 cluster controller emulator) and older HASP and 3780 workstations, but they all expect a sync serial feed. I have the modem eliminators, etc., so that's not a problem. The problem is what to stick in a PeeCee that can be the Host end of the conversation (i.e., the 37x5 end, from the viewpoint of my peripherals). The Zilog 8530 SIO is smart enough to handle the link-level protocol (we used it and the COM5025), but outside of the classic Mac/Sun product line, you don't see a ZSIO in every box. Running x3270 is cool enough, but I want _real_ emulated network traffic, to talk to 20-year-old "compatible" products. I could even move data to and from VAXen over SNA or HASP if the Hercules end is savvy enough. Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 30 14:48:40 2002 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Indigos and such (Was Re: IRIX) In-Reply-To: ; from jbmcb@hotmail.com on Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 14:32:53 CEST References: Message-ID: <20020430214840.E28719@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 2002.04.30 14:32 Jason McBrien wrote: > Are Personal Irises good for anything? Are computers good for anything? > I've got two, a 25 and a 35 and > they seem to work but I don't have a monitor or keyboard for either. Try to get a keyboard and a mouse. They are special, not PS/2 like on the Indigo^2. The /35 is nice. It is the fastest model and comes with 16 bit stereo audio. Have a look at: http://www.futuretech.vuurwerk.nl/pi/ > I'd love to run IRIX or anything on them to round out my > super-heterogeneous network. Install IRIX 4.x. If the machines have enough RAM you will get a very nice workstation with (for that time) surprising "multi media" features. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From meltie at myrealbox.com Tue Apr 30 14:47:48 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847862741C@exchange.olf.com> References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847862741C@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <1020196074.3161.6.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Taxi: lots. Try a train, should be quite frequent - although the sensibility of this is how big the stuff you are going to pick up is... Train fares and times you can get from www.thetrainline.com, and a useful site to know for quickly checking times is www.railtrack.co.uk Have fun, bring waterproofs Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 30 14:57:00 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Mainframe emulation and serial comms (was Re: "Toy" computers) In-Reply-To: <20020430194102.93521.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Raymond Moyers wrote: > > On Wednesday 24 April 2002 22:22, you wrote: > > > If it's a mainframe, then the campus is the enclosure, > > > while if it's a desktop, it's pretty obvious what that is. > > > > Today that campus worth of hardware is emulated in the hercules > > s360/370/390/ zSeries emulator http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules > > running on a PC running linux or winbloZ > > > > OS, DOS, MVS, VM ... running on your pc, serves x3270 > > terms over the network etc etc. > > I have visited the site, but my question is apparently not > frequent enough... from those who know, will "Hercules" > talk BISYNC or SNA down a sync serial pipe? I have some > toys here that emulate PU Type 2s (i.e., include a 3274 > cluster controller emulator) and older HASP and 3780 workstations, > but they all expect a sync serial feed. I have the modem > eliminators, etc., so that's not a problem. The problem is > what to stick in a PeeCee that can be the Host end of the > conversation (i.e., the 37x5 end, from the viewpoint of my > peripherals). The Zilog 8530 SIO is smart enough to handle > the link-level protocol (we used it and the COM5025), but > outside of the classic Mac/Sun product line, you don't see > a ZSIO in every box. Its also used in 5000 series Decstations and at least TC Alphas... > > Running x3270 is cool enough, but I want _real_ emulated > network traffic, to talk to 20-year-old "compatible" > products. I could even move data to and from VAXen over > SNA or HASP if the Hercules end is savvy enough. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness > http://health.yahoo.com > Peter Wallace From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 14:58:05 2002 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: HP 9000/300 wanted In-Reply-To: <200204270027.UAA16619@king.mcs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <20020430195805.43414.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > My intention is to make either an HP-IB to Ethernet gateway... Hmm... a couple of ethernet projects for the C-64 just hit the public eye in the past few weeks, and there's beeen HPIB cartridges for the C-64 for a long time... Wouldn't be as fast (and it wouldn't be an HP at the core, which, obviously, is one of your goals) but it would probably work. Another option is to drop a DEQNA into a MINC (which typically had an IBV11) - you could even run 2.9BSD on it with a KDF11 processor. Not sure what to use for disk (probably need 5MB minimum, 20MB would be better). I don't know if there's a driver for RT-11 for the DEQNA, but that's a possibility, too. Most of my HPIB experience comes from the Commodore world. I know that the physical-layer stuff is fairly consistent (presuming your devices can keep up - not guaranteed if you want to use a modern peripheral with, say, a PET). The "problems" are usually related to the command set, AFAIK. I'd love to see what you come up with for a command structure for an HPIB<->ethernet gateway. Perhaps it would be adaptable to other hardware (PeeCee w/HPIB card, PDP-11, etc.) I know that I will probably never own an HP9000 (just not my area of interest), so I'm looking at this with an eye toward other base platforms. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 14:57:50 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: AIM-65 monitor sources now available References: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> <001201c1f043$84e8aa00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <10204302039.ZM14579@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002b01c1f081$4ec58720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yep... I figured it was a spelling error. I tried the transposition of the 'I' and the 'M' but didn't try it without the hyphen. anyway ... all's well with that now. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 1:39 PM Subject: Re: AIM-65 monitor sources now available > On Apr 30, 6:35, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I got a 'couldn't find it" sort of error trying to visit that site. I > tried > > both spellings of AIM-65, BTW, so something must be broken/bottlenecked. > Any > > suggestions? > > Try http://www.aconit.org/hbp/AIM65/ > > (transpose AMI to AIM, remove the hyphen, and add a trailing '/' because > it's a directory) > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 15:04:48 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Cheap PC References: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> <001201c1f043$84e8aa00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <10204302039.ZM14579@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002f01c1f082$47cfcce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Somebody was telling me they wanted all the P-200's I could find. I snagged an early (no dimm sockets) Socket-7-based P166 with a 2.5GB HDD, 8x CDROM, 3.5" FDD, 4MB PCI SVGA, 56K Modem, 48 MB RAM, USB today. No monitor or keyboard was with it. It was pretty expensive, though ... $9.95... and today's senior discount (50%) day ... Now, if only it'd been a 200 MHz version ... Dick From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 15:07:10 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: <3CCE829D.6010801@aconit.org> <001201c1f043$84e8aa00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <10204302039.ZM14579@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <003d01c1f082$9c91cc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since it was cheap, I snagged an AppleVision monitor/speaker combo today. What systems will support it? I figure I'll find one eventually. It's only a small risk at $3.95. Dick From dwightk.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 30 15:30:53 2002 From: dwightk.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: AIM-65 displays Message-ID: <200204302030.NAA06821@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >--- M H Stein wrote: >> BTW, I've used 6821s & 6520s interchangeably as well without problems. > >I only mentioned it because someone either here or on the CBM Hackers >list said they had problems substituting a 6821 for a 6520. Since I >have tubes of 6821s and a small pad of 6520s, I was happy to verify >the substitution (I have, in the meantime, traded a tube of one for >a tube of the other across the pond, so I'm all set with both). > Hi It may be that he confused 6521's with 6821,6820 and 6520's. The last three are essentially the same but the 6521 is different. ( or maybe I got it confused? I know one is different ). Dwight From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 30 15:32:24 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Mainframe emulation and serial comms (was Re: "Toy computers)" Message-ID: <000701c1f086$23c91870$e401a8c0@tegjeff.com> > I have visited the site, but my question is apparently not > frequent enough... from those who know, will "Hercules" > talk BISYNC or SNA down a sync serial pipe? I have some > toys here that emulate PU Type 2s (i.e., include a 3274 > cluster controller emulator) and older HASP and 3780 workstations, > but they all expect a sync serial feed. I have the modem > eliminators, etc., so that's not a problem. The problem is > what to stick in a PeeCee that can be the Host end of the > conversation (i.e., the 37x5 end, from the viewpoint of my > peripherals). The Zilog 8530 SIO is smart enough to handle > the link-level protocol (we used it and the COM5025), but > outside of the classic Mac/Sun product line, you don't see > a ZSIO in every box. I'd think you'd either need a PC serial card that uses a USART instead of a UART, or a convert of some kind... but I don't know how the converter would supply synch... The Data General One notebook used the Intel 8251a USART for serial I/O; it through me for a loop because writing an interrupt handler for it is quite different from its 8250-based stablemates. But it wouldn't be too hard to kludge up a design for a single-port 8251a-based serial card... -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me "Doug"] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply "The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away." -Tom Waits From pat at purdueriots.com Tue Apr 30 15:33:09 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: <003d01c1f082$9c91cc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: If it's the type with a 'weird' AV plug (rectangle shaped), it'll work with with the motherboard video on any PowerMac 6100 or 7100. Might also work with an 8100 or 91xx, but I have no personal experience with those. -- Pat On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Since it was cheap, I snagged an AppleVision monitor/speaker combo today. > What systems will support it? I figure I'll find one eventually. > > It's only a small risk at $3.95. > > Dick > > From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Apr 30 16:02:33 2002 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847862741E@exchange.olf.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/e22eac1d/attachment.html From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Apr 30 16:01:35 2002 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Free stuff in SF bay area In-Reply-To: <109701c1eb24$f2b4cdd0$0200a8c0@tm2000> Message-ID: 1 Godbout Interfacer 3 S100 Multi Serial card 1 Mullen Computer S100 extender card 1 SH1 ICE (missing host interface card) ~10 5" mo disks 650 and 1300 MB 1 IBM 5150 PC & KB Peter Wallace From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 16:03:38 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >Since it was cheap, I snagged an AppleVision monitor/speaker combo today. >What systems will support it? I figure I'll find one eventually. > >It's only a small risk at $3.95. If it is one with the AppleVision plug (HDI-45, this kind of rectangular plug with lots of pins in it), then only the 6100, 7100 and 8100 support it directly IIRC. However, there is an adaptor out there to break out the cable to its RGB plug, mic, speaker, and ADB, so you can plug it into any of the other Macs. Also, the last series of AV monitors weren't true AppleVision monitors, and only had the standard RGB plug, if you have one of those, than any color mac EXCEPT the 6100, 7100, or 8100 should support it (those 3 will support it IF they have the optional RGB card installed, or if you have the HDI-45 to RGB pigtail). -chris From meltie at myrealbox.com Tue Apr 30 16:01:53 2002 From: meltie at myrealbox.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847862741E@exchange.olf.com> References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847862741E@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <1020200518.3632.2.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> > It the weather really bad in London at this time??? In the words of one of my friends, it's p*ssing it down. Welcome to the UK :) Alex -- My computer's heavier than yours. From f.heite at hccnet.nl Tue Apr 30 16:18:53 2002 From: f.heite at hccnet.nl (Freek Heite) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: CP/M-86 Message-ID: <200204302118.XAA07693@smtp.hccnet.nl> Pat Finnegan wrote: >Cool. Next question: is there any software for MSDOS or Linux (preferably >that I don't need to pay for) that will read/write CP/M-86 (1) hard disk >partitions or (2) 1.44M floppies. I've noticed 22DSK doesn't support much >more than 5-1/4" floppies. Out-of-the-box "CP/M-86 for the IBM PC" does not support 1.44 MB diskettes. But if you still need it: some time ago I wrote a software package called "The 1.44 MB Feature for CP/M-86" that provides this support as an add-on to standard CP/M-86 for IBM. See the CP/M-86 software repository at www. seanet.com/~klaw There's also a definition for 22disk in the package. Freek Heite. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 16:20:47 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <000b01c1f08c$e5349240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You mean it'll work with the older mac's? It has a "normal" (for MAC's) video cable, and its model number is 1710AV. It has what appears to be pass-through's for the mouse and for a mike, that funny thing that looks like the USB symbol but isn't, and a couple of other thingies, but it's only a 16" diagonal visible (not viewable) screen so I don't think it's supposed to be a 17", though you never know these days. I'll have to run out and snag a cheap mac and see what it does. I saw a Quadra 650 or something on that order for $5 earlier today. It had a part of the front face missing, else I'd have probably looked inside. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >Since it was cheap, I snagged an AppleVision monitor/speaker combo today. > >What systems will support it? I figure I'll find one eventually. > > > >It's only a small risk at $3.95. > > If it is one with the AppleVision plug (HDI-45, this kind of rectangular > plug with lots of pins in it), then only the 6100, 7100 and 8100 support > it directly IIRC. > > However, there is an adaptor out there to break out the cable to its RGB > plug, mic, speaker, and ADB, so you can plug it into any of the other > Macs. > > Also, the last series of AV monitors weren't true AppleVision monitors, > and only had the standard RGB plug, if you have one of those, than any > color mac EXCEPT the 6100, 7100, or 8100 should support it (those 3 will > support it IF they have the optional RGB card installed, or if you have > the HDI-45 to RGB pigtail). > > -chris > > > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Apr 30 16:42:57 2002 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath Message-ID: >It the weather really bad in London at this time??? No. It's really wet in the whole of the UK. As usual, there's nothing at all special about London :-) Antonio From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 16:46:36 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <000901c1f090$80a5f040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I went out and bought a Performa630CD just about like those that I gave away earlier. This one didn't have the printer and monitor with it, but it only cost $4 and it shows that this monitor does work, sort-of, but it's a mite dim. When I adjust the brightness upward, it goes up for a moment, then suddenly there's considerable pincushioning and the vertical dimension goes down a mite, say 10%. When I adjust the pincushion, the pincushion goes away immediately, though I've not adjusted anything, and the image size goes back to what it was, but it's dim again. The brightness control is on the face of the monitor, while the pincusion is adjusted in software. It's getting pretty highly integrated when the monitor is adjusted by the computer. I've got to say, I'm impressed with that little touch. The Apple folks have had better "human engineering" than anybody else has, over the years since the MAC's came out, but this is just about the extreme! Any suggestions? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >Since it was cheap, I snagged an AppleVision monitor/speaker combo today. > >What systems will support it? I figure I'll find one eventually. > > > >It's only a small risk at $3.95. > > If it is one with the AppleVision plug (HDI-45, this kind of rectangular > plug with lots of pins in it), then only the 6100, 7100 and 8100 support > it directly IIRC. > > However, there is an adaptor out there to break out the cable to its RGB > plug, mic, speaker, and ADB, so you can plug it into any of the other > Macs. > > Also, the last series of AV monitors weren't true AppleVision monitors, > and only had the standard RGB plug, if you have one of those, than any > color mac EXCEPT the 6100, 7100, or 8100 should support it (those 3 will > support it IF they have the optional RGB card installed, or if you have > the HDI-45 to RGB pigtail). > > -chris > > > > From beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 30 16:52:37 2002 From: beermat at bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk (Greg Elkin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CCF2035.2958.1DDA8FFC@localhost> > As usual, there's nothing at all special about London > Apart from the gravity distortion caused by having too many people crammed into too small a place... greg From philip at awale.qc.ca Tue Apr 30 17:13:30 2002 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip@awale.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question In-Reply-To: <3CCE264A.5030709@internet1.net> Message-ID: On 30-Apr-2002 Chad Fernandez wrote: > What I may do is poke a hole in the top of the case, and mount a big > fan. How well would a 24volt fan run on 12 volts? Since it's DC it's > fine, right? It's just slower? Try it! :) -Philip From red at bears.org Tue Apr 30 17:19:39 2002 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: <000901c1f090$80a5f040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, I went out and bought a Performa630CD just about like those that I gave > away earlier. This one didn't have the printer and monitor with it, but it > only cost $4 and it shows that this monitor does work, sort-of, but it's a > mite dim. When I adjust the brightness upward, it goes up for a moment, then > suddenly there's considerable pincushioning and the vertical dimension goes > down a mite, say 10%. When I adjust the pincushion, the pincushion goes away > immediately, though I've not adjusted anything, and the image size goes back > to what it was, but it's dim again. The brightness control is on the face of > the monitor, while the pincusion is adjusted in software. It's getting pretty > highly integrated when the monitor is adjusted by the computer. I've got to > say, I'm impressed with that little touch. > > The Apple folks have had better "human engineering" than anybody else has, > over the years since the MAC's came out, but this is just about the extreme! I agree. From a usability standpoint, the 1710AV was light-years ahead of the rest of the market. Unfortunately, however... > Any suggestions? ...it had terrible QC problems. It's a tossup which was the less reliable product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups (comp.sys.macintosh.*) ok r. From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 17:19:54 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >You mean it'll work with the older mac's? It has a "normal" (for MAC's) >video >cable, and its model number is 1710AV. I just checked the tech manual for the 1710AV, it indeed has the standard RGB plug, so you should be good to go with just about any mac that has an RGB port. Some of the older ones will only be able to display in 640x480 resolution, but the Q650 you are looking into will do higher. If you want the PDF of the manual, let me know, I'll send it to you offlist. It's about 3.6MB, has some interesting notes about repair problems with that model (Apple even has/had a repair extension program in place for some of it) >It has what appears to be >pass-through's for the mouse and for a mike, that funny thing that looks like >the USB symbol but isn't That's the ADB port. Predates USB by some time. The idea was you could run one cable bundle from the screen to the Mac, and then be able to plug the keyboard and mic into the screen (mouse would be connected to the keyboard's ADB port). >but it's only a 16" >diagonal visible (not viewable) screen so I don't think it's supposed to be a >17", though you never know these days. It is listed as a 17" with 16.1" viewable image size. Although, it was made back in the day when apple was a little less than honest with their screen sizes (before they were sued over it), so who knows what it really has. >I saw a >Quadra 650 or something on that order for $5 earlier today. It had a part of >the front face missing, else I'd have probably looked inside. Probably missing the CD bezel. Most likely it was stripped of the CD before being junked. If the CD is missing, verify that the rest of the system is there, who knows what else was pulled. -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 30 16:17:29 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question In-Reply-To: <3CCE264A.5030709@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Apr 30, 2 01:06:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/e73ad3ee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 30 16:21:13 2002 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Starting point In-Reply-To: <20020430051833.NSSZ17991.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Apr 30, 2 01:16:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20020430/2aa7c743/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 17:38:28 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <000901c1f097$bf761780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I've got the thing attached to that Performa I just bought. The Quadra was already gone but since I have a little history with the Performa 630CD I'm not disappointed. It's playing a CD right now, and the display has been adjusted almost to my complete satisfaction. I don't like that the brightness and contrast are turned up so far, though. This, for the few bucks it cost, gives me a very different view of the Mac. I'd never seen one with a decent size display on it before the Performa's I bought last year before the Holidays. This one is even better, and I like the way in which it simply "goes" without any real extensive fiddling. It took me a moment to figure out how to work the CRT controls, and getting the CD to play took another moment or two. I may keep this one, though. It's pretty handy and I like the CD it's playing ... some of those Linda Ronstadt latin numbers, (this one's a collection of Latin dance numbers called "Frenesi'") which, for some reason, I find very energizing ... The fact I've got a mild buzz going is a factor as well, however. (I've been more or less "off-the-sauce" for a number of years, and someone from my deep, dark past recently gave me a case of beer for helping him out, so I've been consuming 'em one or two at a time. If I drink two in an hour's time, I'm on my way ...) It might be well to note that I generally go out of my way to keep the sound/noise out of my computers, even to the extent of unplugging the speaker that normally provides the "beep" when the software tells it to complain. I also "bed" the moving components in soft silastic foam in order to reduce the vibration noise from disk drives, fans, etc. I've had CPU-cooler fans that made entirely too much noise. My feeling is that if you can hear it with a stethoscope, it's too loud. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with a MAC once it's running. I have a walkman, and several CD players, so I don't need it for that ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:19 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >You mean it'll work with the older mac's? It has a "normal" (for MAC's) > >video > >cable, and its model number is 1710AV. > > I just checked the tech manual for the 1710AV, it indeed has the standard > RGB plug, so you should be good to go with just about any mac that has an > RGB port. Some of the older ones will only be able to display in 640x480 > resolution, but the Q650 you are looking into will do higher. > > If you want the PDF of the manual, let me know, I'll send it to you > offlist. It's about 3.6MB, has some interesting notes about repair > problems with that model (Apple even has/had a repair extension program > in place for some of it) > > >It has what appears to be > >pass-through's for the mouse and for a mike, that funny thing that looks like > >the USB symbol but isn't > > That's the ADB port. Predates USB by some time. The idea was you could > run one cable bundle from the screen to the Mac, and then be able to plug > the keyboard and mic into the screen (mouse would be connected to the > keyboard's ADB port). > > >but it's only a 16" > >diagonal visible (not viewable) screen so I don't think it's supposed to be a > >17", though you never know these days. > > It is listed as a 17" with 16.1" viewable image size. Although, it was > made back in the day when apple was a little less than honest with their > screen sizes (before they were sued over it), so who knows what it really > has. > > >I saw a > >Quadra 650 or something on that order for $5 earlier today. It had a part of > >the front face missing, else I'd have probably looked inside. > > Probably missing the CD bezel. Most likely it was stripped of the CD > before being junked. If the CD is missing, verify that the rest of the > system is there, who knows what else was pulled. > > -chris > > > > From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 17:42:11 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >When I adjust the brightness upward, it goes up for a moment, then >suddenly there's considerable pincushioning and the vertical dimension goes >down a mite, say 10%. When I adjust the pincushion, the pincushion goes away >immediately, though I've not adjusted anything, and the image size goes back >to what it was, but it's dim again. Doesn't really match any of the repair notes in the tech manual. Although there is a comment about CRT Arcing, and to turn off the unit, unplug the power cord and ADB cable from the monitor, wait 10 seconds, hook it all back up, and power it up. Problem should be gone.... but like I said, it isn't exactly the same thing as you are describing, so that might not do squat for you. Rather it sounds more like the brightness control might be dying. Maybe a bad cap or something (I'm not an EE, so I defer to someone with more knowledge in these things than me). -chris From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 17:42:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <000f01c1f098$5418ef20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I won't get too attached to it, then. It's an impressive package, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there are quality problems. Apple Computer Co. always impressed me as being entirely too willing to compromise the quality of MY hardware/software, and the security of my data, in favor of their profits. Did they ever come up with a remedy for the problems? Is there a recall? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:19 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Well, I went out and bought a Performa630CD just about like those that I gave > > say, I'm impressed with that little touch. > > > > > The Apple folks have had better "human engineering" than anybody else has, > > over the years since the MAC's came out, but this is just about the extreme! > > I agree. From a usability standpoint, the 1710AV was light-years > ahead of the rest of the market. Unfortunately, however... > > > Any suggestions? > > ...it had terrible QC problems. It's a tossup which was the less reliable > product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the > you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups > (comp.sys.macintosh.*) > > ok > r. > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 17:50:51 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question References: Message-ID: <002501c1f099$7ab48d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'd suggest you consider an AC fan with a series capacitor in one side or the other of the supply to the fan. If you're ambitious, you can do quite a little with that sort of hookup, trading off fan noise for effective cooling power. If you put about 0.47uF in series with a typical small AC fan, it will cut the torque considerably, and that will cut the amount of air it moves. If you put a normally-open SSR, controlled by a temperature sensor in some critical area of your enclosure, in parallel with the cap, then have the control enable the SSR whenever the temp is above a certain point, it will speed up the fan and keep running at high speed until the control signal goes away. You then play with the hysteresis until you get satisfactory performance. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:13 PM Subject: Re: IBM AT power supply case/cooling question > > On 30-Apr-2002 Chad Fernandez wrote: > > What I may do is poke a hole in the top of the case, and mount a big > > fan. How well would a 24volt fan run on 12 volts? Since it's DC it's > > fine, right? It's just slower? > > Try it! :) > > -Philip > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 17:52:52 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <002b01c1f099$c36197a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, the brightness is turned up farther than I like (100%) but it's been just fine through an entire CD. I'll let it cook for a while yet, maybe a day or so, and then we'll see where we are. Please do send that doc you referred to. I'd like to have a look at it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 4:42 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >When I adjust the brightness upward, it goes up for a moment, then > >suddenly there's considerable pincushioning and the vertical dimension goes > >down a mite, say 10%. When I adjust the pincushion, the pincushion goes away > >immediately, though I've not adjusted anything, and the image size goes back > >to what it was, but it's dim again. > > Doesn't really match any of the repair notes in the tech manual. Although > there is a comment about CRT Arcing, and to turn off the unit, unplug the > power cord and ADB cable from the monitor, wait 10 seconds, hook it all > back up, and power it up. Problem should be gone.... but like I said, it > isn't exactly the same thing as you are describing, so that might not do > squat for you. > > Rather it sounds more like the brightness control might be dying. Maybe a > bad cap or something (I'm not an EE, so I defer to someone with more > knowledge in these things than me). > > -chris > > > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 30 18:01:32 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Traveling from London to Bath In-Reply-To: <3CCF2035.2958.1DDA8FFC@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Greg Elkin wrote: > > As usual, there's nothing at all special about London > > Apart from the gravity distortion caused by having too many people > crammed into too small a place... London's big, but it isn't *that* big. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 18:26:04 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >It's a tossup which was the less reliable >product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the >you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups >(comp.sys.macintosh.*) UGH... well, I had the PB 5300, and if the 1710AV was anywhere near that bad... YIKES! -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 18:29:08 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >I'm still trying to figure out what to do with a MAC once it's running. replace your normal everyday use computer... and finally be able to relax? -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 18:33:07 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >Apple Computer Co. always impressed me as being >entirely too willing to compromise the quality of MY hardware/software, and >the security of my data, in favor of their profits. WOAH?!? That's just a shot from the dark... Apple is known for how good their quality IS... sure they had a few flops, but most of their hardware is built well, and built to last. And security? Um... compared to what? Windows? BWAA HAA HAA HAA HAA!!! -chris From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 30 18:48:54 2002 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: ARK files In-Reply-To: <200204301708.KAA13201@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > I picked up a bunch of CPM archives from CPMUG. The files end with the > > ARK file extension. I've tried the unark16.exe I picked up from the > > oak.oakland.edu site but I can't seem to get them to unpack. > > ARK should be the same as ARC. You could probably use pkxarc if you can > still find it. I think pkunpack will work as well. Does anyone know if > WINZIP handles "ARC" type archives? Don't know about WINZIP, but ARCE as well as the other two mentioned should do the trick. Frequently though, it is necessary to spell out the ARK extension or rename it to ARC so as not to confuse the program. - don > > What MS-DOS command works on these archives or do I need to fetch a CP/M > > version and run under a CP/M emulator? > > Eric > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 18:57:03 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <000f01c1f0a2$b9c5ca00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> We'd best just agree to disagree about Apple Computer Co product quality. My position is based on what I saw in '81-'82 with then ][ and ][+, where 10 complete data losses per hour were the rule rather than the exception. I remember watching a client's hired hand reboot and retype six times in the course of a single phone call (on the customer's dime, so that wasn't good either) culminating in the loss of the customer, not to mention the loss of the order. It may not be that bad any longer, but I'm operating on the "once-bitten-twice-shy" principle. At that time, my partner and I were in the retail business, and wherever we saw an Apple, we made a sale, no exceptions. My experience with the MACs was limited to what was then "leading edge" implementations, which often led to trouble. I imagine the problems were resolved, but I didn't get to see that. Consequently, the bad taste lingers. I am quite impressed with the seamlessness of the integration of the MAC stuff, but since it's all from Apple, you'd expect nothing less. One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install an ethernet interface. What do you know about that? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 5:33 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >Apple Computer Co. always impressed me as being > >entirely too willing to compromise the quality of MY hardware/software, and > >the security of my data, in favor of their profits. > > WOAH?!? That's just a shot from the dark... Apple is known for how good > their quality IS... sure they had a few flops, but most of their hardware > is built well, and built to last. And security? Um... compared to what? > Windows? BWAA HAA HAA HAA HAA!!! > > -chris > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 18:57:59 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >...it had terrible QC problems. It's a tossup which was the less reliable >product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the >you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups >(comp.sys.macintosh.*) As of last summer though Apple was still keeping it's promise of repairing defective 5300's. Mine hadn't yet had the case repaired and they replaced the whole outer casing under warranty, including shipping both ways. Not bad service for a near 7 year old laptop. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 30 19:37:10 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: <000f01c1f0a2$b9c5ca00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 30, 2 05:57:03 pm" Message-ID: <200205010037.RAA18860@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs > install an ethernet interface. Well, I've always installed an Ethernet interface in my Macs by putting the card inside the case and turning it on. I'm not sure what you mean by this. My 7300 Power Mac speaks TCP/IP just fine, and it has a regular 10baseT Ethernet port. It cooperates just fine in a mixed network. Plus, there are *many* Ethernet-capable Macs, even if it's just an AAUI that needs a transceiver. If you mean *AppleTalk* issues, many NT servers speak AppleTalk too, and OS X.1 mounts NT shares natively as well as NFS, AppleTalk-over-IP and regular classic AppleTalk. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Do you think I could buy back my introduction to you? -- Groucho Marx ------ From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 19:32:16 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >We'd best just agree to disagree about Apple Computer Co product quality. I'm sure not aiming to start another flame war :-) >My position is based on what I saw in '81-'82 with then ][ and ][+, where 10 >complete data losses per hour were the rule rather than the exception. Ironically, you might have missed the best Apple days when it comes to hardware reliability. (I can't say for sure, but I have been hearing the rumors growing that QC on the new flat panel iMac isn't all that great, and I know QC on the iceBook isn't less than wonderful) >One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the >Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT >servers. I >know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one >ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs >install >an ethernet interface. > >What do you know about that? Most Macs, since sometime in the early 90's have come with ethernet on board. The exceptions were the home targeted models (like the Performa series), where ethernet was an optional add on. Every mac since the G3 comes with ethernet standard (basically, with the death of the performa line came the death of optional ethernet... it was just included with everything from then on out) Every mac with an expansion slot can have ethernet added. Every mac with at least SCSI can have ethernet added. If you have a pre-scsi mac (128-512), then it gets a touch harder, but then, if you have one of those, and don't know what you can and can't do with it... I'll take it from you for cost of shipping. That pretty much means, every mac from the Plus on can support ethernet. For your Performa 630, you can add either an LC PDS ethernet card, or a Comm Slot 1 ethernet card. The LC card will probably be the easier to find. Beyond that, you just have protocol issues. The Mac doesn't natively use anything other than AppleTalk for file and print sharing (up thru OS 9... OS X is a whole different ballgame). If you are in a network that supports AppleTalk, great, everything will work fine (NT 4 and 2k support it, as well as I believe later versions of Netware, and there are some *nix packages out there as well). If you can't get AppleTalk supported, then you will have to add things to the Mac to access the servers. There are 3rd party apps out there to enable the Mac to speak to a number of different systems. If this is something you want to do, I will be happy to discuss it with you, but it is going to get off topic really fast, so we are better off taking it off list. -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 19:34:02 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: > As of last summer though Apple was still keeping it's promise >of repairing defective 5300's. Mine hadn't yet had the case repaired >and they replaced the whole outer casing under warranty, including >shipping both ways. Not bad service for a near 7 year old laptop. IIRC, the extension program on the 5300 is good for 8 years from the date the 5300 was discontinued. Unfortunatly, if the tech manual for the 1710AV is to be believed, the repair program only lasted 5 months for it (August of 98 to Dec 31 98). -chris From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 30 19:44:54 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) Message-ID: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> Dick said: > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > an ethernet interface. Nuvolink made a box, SCSI interfaced Ethernet, 10-base-2 and AUI. The Quadra 700 was a slight modification to the Mac IIci. The IIci didn't have Ethernet; the Q700 did. The IIci was a 1990 machine. Q700 was probably late '91 or early '92. Not sure therefore what you mean by "old". May have been e-net boards that clamped down on the 68k chip like the hard drive upgrades and the 1st Radius FP display, but once SCSI was in place, you had that. But shortly thereafter you have e-nat on (almost) every Mac. -dq From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 30 19:50:21 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: <000b01c1f0aa$2fba0030$4eecffcc@Shadow> > >...it had terrible QC problems. It's a tossup which was the less reliable > >product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the > >you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups > >(comp.sys.macintosh.*) > > As of last summer though Apple was still keeping it's promise > of repairing defective 5300's. Mine hadn't yet had the case repaired > and they replaced the whole outer casing under warranty, including > shipping both ways. Not bad service for a near 7 year old laptop. Repaired PB 5300ce in my possession, serviced in '96, no problems other than tiny built-in speaker has died. Runs longer on its lithium cell than any laptop I've seen. I use it for a system console on the Prime; it's on 24x7x365. Most batteries get screwed by that. Not this one. Got a 500w halogen worklight too close for a while... plastic was too hot to touch and started warping where the LCD shell comes together on the top edge (top as in when the lid is up). No harm to LCD screen. rock-solid. don't make 'em like this anymore. -dq From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Apr 30 20:07:14 2002 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: <000f01c1f0a2$b9c5ca00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3CCF3F68.9405814D@eoni.com> FWIW, most Macs since the Centris/Quadra 650 (1994?) have had on-board ethernet. Unlike the competing product, it's pretty much plug and PLAY. As the early iMac commercial said: Three steps to get on the internet. Step 1. Plug it in. (scene shows power cord being plugged in) Step 2. Get connected. (scene shows RJ-11 plug being plugged in) Step 3. There is no step three!!! There *is* no step three. It's really about that easy. With my systems, I run the wire to the hub, select "connect via ethernet" in Remote Access and configure the TCP/IP control panel to either use DHCP or manually enter the necessary IP numbers. Takes all of three minutes. Much less time than it takes a winbox to find and load the NIC card drivers with its so-called Wizard. With Novell, just load and configure the Netware Client for Mac. It's a much longer process, but what can one expect from Novell... Jim Richard Erlacher wrote: > > We'd best just agree to disagree about Apple Computer Co product quality. > > My position is based on what I saw in '81-'82 with then ][ and ][+, where 10 > complete data losses per hour were the rule rather than the exception. I > remember watching a client's hired hand reboot and retype six times in the > course of a single phone call (on the customer's dime, so that wasn't good > either) culminating in the loss of the customer, not to mention the loss of > the order. It may not be that bad any longer, but I'm operating on the > "once-bitten-twice-shy" principle. At that time, my partner and I were in the > retail business, and wherever we saw an Apple, we made a sale, no exceptions. > > My experience with the MACs was limited to what was then "leading edge" > implementations, which often led to trouble. I imagine the problems were > resolved, but I didn't get to see that. Consequently, the bad taste lingers. > > I am quite impressed with the seamlessness of the integration of the MAC > stuff, but since it's all from Apple, you'd expect nothing less. > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > an ethernet interface. > > What do you know about that? > > Dick From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Apr 30 20:25:29 2002 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:21 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) In-Reply-To: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> References: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: >Nuvolink made a box, SCSI interfaced Ethernet, 10-base-2 and AUI. >The Quadra 700 was a slight modification to the Mac IIci. >The IIci didn't have Ethernet; the Q700 did. The IIci was a >1990 machine. Q700 was probably late '91 or early '92. >Not sure therefore what you mean by "old". May have been >e-net boards that clamped down on the 68k chip like the >hard drive upgrades and the 1st Radius FP display, but >once SCSI was in place, you had that. But shortly thereafter >you have e-nat on (almost) every Mac. Focus made a combo video/ethernet card for certain Powerbook's as well. I've got one of them in my 5300 and it works great. It's nice having built-in ethernet vice using the PCMCIA slot. Plus, how many laptops actually have upgradable/replacable video cards? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From co.614sqn at aafc.adfc.gov.au Tue Apr 30 21:02:09 2002 From: co.614sqn at aafc.adfc.gov.au (FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) References: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <018b01c1f0b4$346701f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) > Dick said: > > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT > servers. I > > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs > install an ethernet interface. Webster make just what you need. The Multiport/LT Router.. Routes IP, Appletalk and DECnet (appears as a Decnet node.) and provides a phyical interface between the normal 10BaseT or 10Base2 ethernet and the Appletalk phonenet stuff as well. Will also DHCP for the Macs (and probably other things on the Ethernet side but not sure about that) Configurable with software from a Mac. I got one by sheer luck for next to nothing with a bag of cables and stuff from auction, unit originally came from the Flinders Medical Centre in Adelaide according to the asset tag. RRP of around $2kUS so I was very happy. All my little (and not so little) Macs have their phonenet/Appletalk wired to it and that connects them to the Netware box via ethernet (which speaks Mac quite well) and to the Internet via the ICS in a Win98Se box. Works both ways, my Laserwriter IIf is on the Appletalk net and it can be queue fed from the Netware box so all the Pc's can use it. Very nice bit of kit. Ever try surfing on a Classic with Netscape 1.1 in glorious Black and White? http://www.webstercomputer.com has all the info. All the software, firmware updates manuals etc etc freely downloadable from the site. Cheers Geoff in Oz From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 30 21:22:17 2002 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: Dick, > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > an ethernet interface. > > What do you know about that? For Localtalk Macs, you have a few choices. 1) Some models, like the SE/30, had internal slots in which an Ethernet interface could be installed. These are, however, rare and somewhat pricey. 2) There are ethernet adapters available that hang off the SCSI port. These are quite proprietary, and can be hard to find software for. 3) You can use a Mac running Localtalk Gateway software for a router. However, that Mac must have a localtalk and ethernet interface. 4) You can buy standalone boxes like the Shiva Fastpath that handle routing Localtalk to Ethertalk. These generally work rather well, and can be found cheaply on Ebay. I use a Fastpath 5 for my Mac network, and it's not failed me. Locating and configuring the software is the biggest hurdle; I've compiled an archive of information at http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/fastpath/ . -- Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 21:37:25 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >Repaired PB 5300ce in my possession, serviced in '96, no problems >other than tiny built-in speaker has died. Runs longer on its >lithium cell than any laptop I've seen. Nickel Metal Hydroxide.... no Lithium Ion batteried PB 5300's are in public circulation to the best of my knowledge (and I don't think any made it past internal testing and early seeding... they exploded during charging). If you really have a LiON batteried 5300 lets talk... what do you want for it? But I agree on the battery life... it just seemed like it never died, and never lost its life-span. I could go a whole evening on a charge easily. Way better life span then my 1400 (which even with a new battery was lucky to get 1.5hrs, now I get 30-45 minutes on a charge) >No harm to LCD screen. rock-solid. don't make 'em like this >anymore. The only recurring problem with the 5300 AFTER it has been put thru the repair extension program, is the screen cable tends to fray and break. Other than that, a repaired 5300 is a very good reliable unit. I actually miss the size (why do all computer makers assume everyone wants a huge screen? I want a portable computer... give me a 10.4" 800x600 screen, thin and light.... I don't want these 15" wide screen designs) -chris From classiciron320 at aol.com Tue Apr 30 21:40:32 2002 From: classiciron320 at aol.com (classiciron320@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: FREE MUSIC FOR VIDEO/FILM PRODUCTIONS Time:9:40:32 PM Message-ID: <20020501024034.VCUP5938.imfep04.kcom.ne.jp@WinProxy> ATTENTION VIDEO/ FILM PRODUCERS AND EDITORS!! You can now DOWNLOAD fresh, new music for your next production at NO CHARGE!! This is original music written and produced especially for video and film productions by a group of composers that want you to try their music. (This is not a NAPSTER-style artist ripoff - we have actually been paid for our work!) We will grant you synchronization rights to use our music in your next production ABSOLUTELY FREE!! Why would we do that? Because we believe once you actually listen to and use our compositions - you'll want to buy our music in the future. 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Not intended for or available to residents of WA, CA or VA. From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 21:41:43 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) Message-ID: > Focus made a combo video/ethernet card for certain >Powerbook's as well. I've got one of them in my 5300 and it works >great. It's nice having built-in ethernet vice using the PCMCIA >slot. Plus, how many laptops actually have upgradable/replacable >video cards? I've always wondered... how do you connect to that? My 5300 (and my 1400 which also has a video/ethernet card available for it) the video took up the entire opening. Do you use a dongle? That is the only way I could figure to fit it. Does the dongle break out to that thin powerbook video connector, or to an RGB or VGA? Just one of those things I have been curious about. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 21:48:27 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <001d01c1f0ba$abb16ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Very impressive indeed. Most PC product vendors don't even remember what was made 7 years ago. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >...it had terrible QC problems. It's a tossup which was the less reliable > >product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the > >you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups > >(comp.sys.macintosh.*) > > As of last summer though Apple was still keeping it's promise > of repairing defective 5300's. Mine hadn't yet had the case repaired > and they replaced the whole outer casing under warranty, including > shipping both ways. Not bad service for a near 7 year old laptop. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 21:55:39 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: <200205010037.RAA18860@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <002301c1f0bb$ad0c4e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't remember seeing any slots for "cards" of any sort when I had the box open. Of course that was last Thanksgiving. I just discarded a MAC (Nubus) ethernet card. I figured I'd come to regret it, though I'm not sure it would have made any difference. That was from a IIx from which I wanted to try the PSU. There wasn't anything else of value inside, so it's gone, aside from a few socketed IC's and the video card, which, I think, is a pretty typical MAC video board. This AppleVision monitor/speaker arrangement is pretty impressive. It uses every bit of the visible screen area and the linearity is pretty good, as is the focus and convergence. I'd like to wish it will stay that way for a while. It's turned up all the way in brightness, though, and I dont like that. More questions below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs > > install an ethernet interface. > > Well, I've always installed an Ethernet interface in my Macs by putting the > card inside the case and turning it on. > > I'm not sure what you mean by this. My 7300 Power Mac speaks TCP/IP just > fine, and it has a regular 10baseT Ethernet port. It cooperates just fine > in a mixed network. > It's a serious security problem to use TCP/IP on a lan if one has an internet connection. My LAN uses Netbeui and IPX/SPX. There's got to be a way ... > > Plus, there are *many* Ethernet-capable Macs, even if it's just an AAUI > that needs a transceiver. > > If you mean *AppleTalk* issues, many NT servers speak AppleTalk too, and OS > X.1 mounts NT shares natively as well as NFS, AppleTalk-over-IP and regular > classic AppleTalk. > Is there a "slick" way to exploit hardware that's already in the Performa 630CD? > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Do you think I could buy back my introduction to you? -- Groucho Marx ------ > > From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Apr 30 21:48:54 2002 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet In-Reply-To: <018b01c1f0b4$346701f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> <018b01c1f0b4$346701f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <02043021485401.01339@simon> On Tuesday 30 April 2002 21:02, you wrote: >which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs >install an ethernet interface. On my older compact Macs I use Asante SCSI-->Ethernet adaptors, and the software is still available easily from Asante's site. My main Linux box acts as a Netatalk fileserver and all the Macs share off of it. To handle the bridging of phonenet, I took a Dayna Etherport Ethernet-->Appletalk bridge originally designed to use an Ethernet LaserWriter on an Appletalk network. It bridges all of the machines that I have daisy-chained together with PhoneNET onto my Ethernet (10b2) which then hooks into a hub's coax port and bridges the 10b2 over to 10bT for the rest of my 'net. Works WONDERFULLY, although transfers are still slow (PhoneNET only does 128K/sec, I believe). Tarsi 210 From dquebbeman at acm.org Tue Apr 30 21:59:05 2002 From: dquebbeman at acm.org (Douglas H. Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: <001101c1f0bc$2bbf9be0$4eecffcc@Shadow> > >It's a tossup which was the less reliable > >product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the > >you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups > >(comp.sys.macintosh.*) > > UGH... well, I had the PB 5300, and if the 1710AV was > anywhere near that bad... YIKES! Sorry fer yer bad luck, son... flawless PB5300ce here, too bad I slightly melted the case, would be a museum piece some day. Well, will anyway... Current use: Prime 2455 system console, plus plays Arashi (Finnish clone of TEMPEST) quite nicely... ...also took it on cruise to use as blackjack practice machine. -dq From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:02:04 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <002901c1f0bc$929c01a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What's the "right" way to add networking to the MAC? I'm not inclined to buy into standard Ethernet, since I've got 100Mbps and am looking to move to the bleeding edge for educational purposes. Is there any >10Gbps stuff one can add? How about just the 100 Mbps? I'm also looking for a recommendation for a decent but not too rare or expensive 56K dialup modem that's also fax-capable. I'm sure I can find a reasonable MAC for a few dollars, but the real question with the MAC is the peripherals. I've noticed that there's software out there for doing long-distance jibberjabber between computers on the internet. If I equip one of these babies with that and send it to my S.O's sister in Portland, they can yack without running up the long distance bills. That's easily going to pay for an older MAC in a week or so. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:32 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > >We'd best just agree to disagree about Apple Computer Co product quality. > > I'm sure not aiming to start another flame war :-) > > >My position is based on what I saw in '81-'82 with then ][ and ][+, where 10 > >complete data losses per hour were the rule rather than the exception. > > Ironically, you might have missed the best Apple days when it comes to > hardware reliability. (I can't say for sure, but I have been hearing the > rumors growing that QC on the new flat panel iMac isn't all that great, > and I know QC on the iceBook isn't less than wonderful) > > >One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > >Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT > >servers. I > >know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > >ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs > >install > >an ethernet interface. > > > >What do you know about that? > > Most Macs, since sometime in the early 90's have come with ethernet on > board. The exceptions were the home targeted models (like the Performa > series), where ethernet was an optional add on. Every mac since the G3 > comes with ethernet standard (basically, with the death of the performa > line came the death of optional ethernet... it was just included with > everything from then on out) > > Every mac with an expansion slot can have ethernet added. Every mac with > at least SCSI can have ethernet added. If you have a pre-scsi mac > (128-512), then it gets a touch harder, but then, if you have one of > those, and don't know what you can and can't do with it... I'll take it > from you for cost of shipping. > > That pretty much means, every mac from the Plus on can support ethernet. > > For your Performa 630, you can add either an LC PDS ethernet card, or a > Comm Slot 1 ethernet card. The LC card will probably be the easier to > find. > > Beyond that, you just have protocol issues. The Mac doesn't natively use > anything other than AppleTalk for file and print sharing (up thru OS 9... > OS X is a whole different ballgame). If you are in a network that > supports AppleTalk, great, everything will work fine (NT 4 and 2k support > it, as well as I believe later versions of Netware, and there are some > *nix packages out there as well). > > If you can't get AppleTalk supported, then you will have to add things to > the Mac to access the servers. There are 3rd party apps out there to > enable the Mac to speak to a number of different systems. If this is > something you want to do, I will be happy to discuss it with you, but it > is going to get off topic really fast, so we are better off taking it off > list. > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:03:17 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <002f01c1f0bc$be1d6580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Oh well ... as I always say ... "Sometimes ye gits chickin, and sometimes ye gits feathuhs..." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:34 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > > As of last summer though Apple was still keeping it's promise > >of repairing defective 5300's. Mine hadn't yet had the case repaired > >and they replaced the whole outer casing under warranty, including > >shipping both ways. Not bad service for a near 7 year old laptop. > > IIRC, the extension program on the 5300 is good for 8 years from the date > the 5300 was discontinued. > > Unfortunatly, if the tech manual for the 1710AV is to be believed, the > repair program only lasted 5 months for it (August of 98 to Dec 31 98). > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:05:12 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) References: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <003501c1f0bd$02cda000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'll keep an eye out for the SCSI<=>e'net box. Adaptec made a "NODEM" that was essentially that same thing. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:44 PM Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) > Dick said: > > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT > servers. I > > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs > install > > an ethernet interface. > > Nuvolink made a box, SCSI interfaced Ethernet, 10-base-2 and AUI. > The Quadra 700 was a slight modification to the Mac IIci. > The IIci didn't have Ethernet; the Q700 did. The IIci was a > 1990 machine. Q700 was probably late '91 or early '92. > Not sure therefore what you mean by "old". May have been > e-net boards that clamped down on the 68k chip like the > hard drive upgrades and the 1st Radius FP display, but > once SCSI was in place, you had that. But shortly thereafter > you have e-nat on (almost) every Mac. > > -dq > > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Apr 30 22:06:54 2002 From: vance at ikickass.org (Sridhar the POWERful) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Chris wrote: > >Repaired PB 5300ce in my possession, serviced in '96, no problems > >other than tiny built-in speaker has died. Runs longer on its > >lithium cell than any laptop I've seen. > > Nickel Metal Hydroxide.... no Lithium Ion batteried PB 5300's are in > public circulation to the best of my knowledge (and I don't think any > made it past internal testing and early seeding... they exploded > during charging). Nickel Metal Hydride. Peace... Sridhar -- "How do you fight such a savage?" "With heart, faith, and steel. There can be only one." -MacLeod and Ramirez, "Highlander" From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:06:13 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: <000b01c1f0aa$2fba0030$4eecffcc@Shadow> Message-ID: <003b01c1f0bd$274e1b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's why my Winbook isn't travelling. I have to find a replacement battery now. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" To: "ClassicCmp List" Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 6:50 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > > >...it had terrible QC problems. It's a tossup which was the less reliable > > >product: the 1710AV, or the PowerBook 5300. Check out some of the > > >you-had-to-be-there rants about this monitor in Google Groups > > >(comp.sys.macintosh.*) > > > > As of last summer though Apple was still keeping it's promise > > of repairing defective 5300's. Mine hadn't yet had the case repaired > > and they replaced the whole outer casing under warranty, including > > shipping both ways. Not bad service for a near 7 year old laptop. > > Repaired PB 5300ce in my possession, serviced in '96, no problems > other than tiny built-in speaker has died. Runs longer on its > lithium cell than any laptop I've seen. > > I use it for a system console on the Prime; it's on 24x7x365. > Most batteries get screwed by that. Not this one. > > Got a 500w halogen worklight too close for a while... plastic > was too hot to touch and started warping where the LCD shell > comes together on the top edge (top as in when the lid is up). > > No harm to LCD screen. rock-solid. don't make 'em like this > anymore. > > -dq > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:08:00 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: <000f01c1f0a2$b9c5ca00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3CCF3F68.9405814D@eoni.com> Message-ID: <004101c1f0bd$67150300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I can tolerate a lengthy install, I guess. Goodness knows, I sat through a couple or three installs of OS/2, and that was in '93 or so, when it took all day. Maybe I should have snagged that Quadra 650. . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Arnott" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:07 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > FWIW, most Macs since the Centris/Quadra 650 (1994?) have had on-board > ethernet. Unlike the competing product, it's pretty much plug and PLAY. > > As the early iMac commercial said: > > Three steps to get on the internet. > Step 1. Plug it in. (scene shows power cord being plugged in) > Step 2. Get connected. (scene shows RJ-11 plug being plugged in) > Step 3. There is no step three!!! There *is* no step three. > > It's really about that easy. > > With my systems, I run the wire to the hub, select "connect via > ethernet" in Remote Access and configure the TCP/IP control panel to > either use DHCP or manually enter the necessary IP numbers. Takes all of > three minutes. Much less time than it takes a winbox to find and load > the NIC card drivers with its so-called Wizard. > > With Novell, just load and configure the Netware Client for Mac. It's a > much longer process, but what can one expect from Novell... > > Jim > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > We'd best just agree to disagree about Apple Computer Co product quality. > > > > My position is based on what I saw in '81-'82 with then ][ and ][+, where 10 > > complete data losses per hour were the rule rather than the exception. I > > remember watching a client's hired hand reboot and retype six times in the > > course of a single phone call (on the customer's dime, so that wasn't good > > either) culminating in the loss of the customer, not to mention the loss of > > the order. It may not be that bad any longer, but I'm operating on the > > "once-bitten-twice-shy" principle. At that time, my partner and I were in the > > retail business, and wherever we saw an Apple, we made a sale, no exceptions. > > > > My experience with the MACs was limited to what was then "leading edge" > > implementations, which often led to trouble. I imagine the problems were > > resolved, but I didn't get to see that. Consequently, the bad taste lingers. > > > > I am quite impressed with the seamlessness of the integration of the MAC > > stuff, but since it's all from Apple, you'd expect nothing less. > > > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > > an ethernet interface. > > > > What do you know about that? > > > > Dick > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:10:37 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) References: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> <018b01c1f0b4$346701f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <004901c1f0bd$c4a4bba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No doubt about it ... I'm going to have to buy a book about MACs. I don't need 'em, but my curiosity's aroused now ... and I don't get aroused often ... I simply have to figure out what those little pictures on the MAC cases and peripherals really mean. I know you just match 'em up, but ... What's Appletalk, ... I mean REALLY ... What's Appletalk? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "FLTLT(AAFC) Geoff Roberts" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:02 PM Subject: Re: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" > To: "ClassicCmp List" > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:14 AM > Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) > > > > Dick said: > > > > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > > > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT > > servers. I > > > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > > > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs > > install an ethernet interface. > > Webster make just what you need. The Multiport/LT Router.. > Routes IP, Appletalk and DECnet (appears as a Decnet node.) and provides a > phyical interface between the normal 10BaseT or 10Base2 ethernet and the > Appletalk phonenet stuff as well. > Will also DHCP for the Macs (and probably other things on the Ethernet side > but not sure about that) > Configurable with software from a Mac. I got one by sheer luck for next to > nothing with a bag of cables and stuff from auction, unit originally came > from the Flinders Medical Centre in Adelaide according to the asset tag. > > RRP of around $2kUS so I was very happy. All my little (and not so little) > Macs have their phonenet/Appletalk wired to it and that connects them to the > Netware box via ethernet (which speaks Mac quite well) and to the Internet > via the ICS in a Win98Se box. Works both ways, my Laserwriter IIf is on the > Appletalk net and it can be queue fed from the Netware box so all the Pc's > can use it. Very nice bit of kit. > > Ever try surfing on a Classic with Netscape 1.1 in glorious Black and White? > > http://www.webstercomputer.com has all the info. > > All the software, firmware updates manuals etc etc freely downloadable from > the site. > > Cheers > > Geoff in Oz > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 30 22:15:06 2002 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor References: Message-ID: <004f01c1f0be$64ab87a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Please don't refer to models I don't recognize ... I'm a linear thinker when I'm trying to solve a small highly localized problem. Right now I'm looking to solve the problem with the Performa 630CD (I went out and bought another of them since this afternoon, though I had to pay $5 for this one, and it works, too.) since I have a little hands-on time with those. Now we've got Localtalk and Appletalk ... What are they and which is which? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Underwood" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: APPLEVISION Monitor > > Dick, > > > One thing that I've wondered is how one gets an old MAC to talk on the > > Ethernet when it's a mixed environment with Netware and Windows NT servers. I > > know Netware has a provision for MAC namespace, but I've only seen one > > ethernet-capable MAC, which leaves me wondering how folks who use MACs install > > an ethernet interface. > > > > What do you know about that? > > For Localtalk Macs, you have a few choices. > > 1) Some models, like the SE/30, had internal slots in which an Ethernet interface > could be installed. These are, however, rare and somewhat pricey. > > 2) There are ethernet adapters available that hang off the SCSI port. These > are quite proprietary, and can be hard to find software for. > > 3) You can use a Mac running Localtalk Gateway software for a router. However, > that Mac must have a localtalk and ethernet interface. > > 4) You can buy standalone boxes like the Shiva Fastpath that handle routing > Localtalk to Ethertalk. These generally work rather well, and can be found > cheaply on Ebay. I use a Fastpath 5 for my Mac network, and it's not failed > me. Locating and configuring the software is the biggest hurdle; I've compiled > an archive of information at http://dbz.icequake.net/oldskool/fastpath/ > . > > -- > Ryan Underwood, , icq=10317253 > > From pat at purdueriots.com Tue Apr 30 22:24:47 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: <002901c1f0bc$929c01a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > What's the "right" way to add networking to the MAC? I'm not inclined to buy > into standard Ethernet, since I've got 100Mbps and am looking to move to the > bleeding edge for educational purposes. Is there any >10Gbps stuff one can > add? How about just the 100 Mbps? I'll assume you meant ">10Mbps". 10Gbps would be a bit faster than a stock Performa could do. Adding 100Mbit ethernet to a 68040-based MAC like your Performa 630 IMHO wouldn't be all that usable. In fact, I don't think there are any >10MBit cards that will fit into an LC PDS slot unless you're wanting to do 16MBit Token Ring (and I'm not sure if anyone ever made 16/4 Token Ring cards for that form factor). You probably could build your own NIC, but that'd be quite a bit of effort. -- Pat From pat at purdueriots.com Tue Apr 30 22:31:11 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) In-Reply-To: <004901c1f0bd$c4a4bba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Richard Erlacher wrote: > No doubt about it ... I'm going to have to buy a book about MACs. I don't > need 'em, but my curiosity's aroused now ... and I don't get aroused often ... > > I simply have to figure out what those little pictures on the MAC cases and > peripherals really mean. I know you just match 'em up, but ... > > What's Appletalk, ... I mean REALLY ... What's Appletalk? AppleTalk is Apple's file/printer sharing protocol. Basically, it's Apple's equivalent of Microsoft's NETBIOS. Older serial-based networks (which ran at a speedy 230Kbit/s) were generally also called 'AppleTalk' networks, but they've since been renamed by Apple to 'PhoneNet' because of the satin phone cable you typically use to connect the adaptors together. Likewise AppleTalk protocol over Ethernet is called 'Ethertalk'. I'm pretty sure that you can get Ethertalk to either work over IP or a separate protocol (can't remember the name at the moment). -- Pat From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 30 22:44:49 2002 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: Apple networking (was: APPLEVISION Monitor) Message-ID: <1191897804-18657241@watermarkpress.com> > Now we've got Localtalk and Appletalk ... What are they and which is which? AppleTalk is a networking protocol. TCP/IP is also a networking protocol. LocalTalk is a cabling system. Just like Ethernet (10baseT, etc) is a cabling system. AppleTalk runs on top of LocalTalk. Other terms that might crop up: PhontNet is also a cabling system. EtherTalk is AppleTalk running on top of Ethernet. -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android From pat at purdueriots.com Tue Apr 30 22:34:53 2002 From: pat at purdueriots.com (Pat Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Pat Finnegan wrote: > networks, but they've since been renamed by Apple to 'PhoneNet' because of > the satin phone cable you typically use to connect the adaptors together. Actually, I think 'LocalTalk' is what they now call the serial-connected network. Not quite sure where I got 'phonenet' from... -- Pat From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Apr 30 22:39:12 2002 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: URL: Appletalk Intro In-Reply-To: <004901c1f0bd$c4a4bba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <000501c1f0a9$6d831150$4eecffcc@Shadow> <018b01c1f0b4$346701f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <004901c1f0bd$c4a4bba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <02043022391203.01339@simon> > What's Appletalk, ... I mean REALLY ... What's Appletalk? I recommend: An Introduction to Appletalk: http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/mac/Networking/Networking-15.html Tarsi 210 From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 22:53:01 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >I don't remember seeing any slots for "cards" of any sort when I had the box >open. It has a Comm Slot 1 and an LC PDS slot, both right on the slide out motherboard. The Comm Slot looks a bit like a PCI slot, and the LC slot looks more like that NuBus slot (long retange with rows of pin holes). There is also a video in/out slot, that will look like a tiny card edge connector slot. >I just discarded a MAC (Nubus) >ethernet card. I figured I'd come to regret it, though I'm not sure it would >have made any difference. Nope, couldn't have used that on the 630 anyway. >the video card, which, I think, is a pretty typical MAC >video board. >From a IIx, if it was color, probably the 8*24GC, fairly standard card for the day. >It's a serious security problem to use TCP/IP on a lan if one has an internet >connection. My LAN uses Netbeui and IPX/SPX. There's got to be a way ... If you are doing file/print sharing, I would use AppleTalk if possible. The key is can any of the servers you are running speak appletalk. (NT4, Win2k, Netware...). AppleTalk isn't the most secure protocol as far as packet sniffing is concerned... but very few internet routers will route it, so it is a fairly safe bet that the traffic will not go beyond your lan (as your internet router box will most likely ignore the packets and not pass them along). Appletalk has the added advantage of just working. It finds its own node address, and sniffs out the network by itself. Pretty much turn it on, and it works. It doesn't get much easier than AppleTalk. Downside is, it tends to be a bit chatty, and it isn't real fast (usually about 4Mb/s on a 10Mb network is the best you will get. AppleTalk of TCP/IP is much faster, but then you run the same risks you do for any TCP/IP traffic) >Is there a "slick" way to exploit hardware that's already in the Performa >630CD? Eh... not really. There are software things you can run to route Localtalk (built in to all macs since the 512kE IIRC, definitly since the Plus) to Ethernet... but somewhere you will still need the hardware connection to go to Ethernet. But you should be able to lay your hands on an LC Ethernet card for the 630 with ease, and fairly cheap. Worst case, if you don't find one local, let me know, I can probably turn up a spare and let you have it for a song (read: probably free + shipping depending on how fast you need it, my time schedule, and how many I have kicking around) -chris From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Apr 30 22:56:35 2002 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: Localtalk and Appletalk In-Reply-To: <004f01c1f0be$64ab87a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <004f01c1f0be$64ab87a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <02043022563504.01339@simon> > Now we've got Localtalk and Appletalk ... What are they and which is which? APPLETALK - Apple's proprietary networking protocol. Used on a multitude of network architectures. Intro to it HERE: http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/mac/Networking/Networking-15.html LOCALTALK - One of many networking topologies on which to deploy Appletalk. Localtalk is one of Apple's proprietary ones. You connect machines via Localtalk cables or something like PhoneNET, which translates Localtalk to run over normal POTS phone lines (on the outside pair (usually black and yellow)). There is also TokenTalk (Tokenring), FDDITalk (FDDI), and others. Appletalk can run over Ethernet fine (EtherTALK), you just have to get it there. (Through a bridge if you have a LocalTalk network, or if you have an Ethernet card in a Mac, it'll just talk Appletalk over Ethernet). Appletalk traffic can also be routed if it's encapsulated inside IP, using Appletalk-IP-encapsulation (the Linux kernel supports encap and decap of this). But normally you don't have to do this, as most Macs can speak TCP/IP (which does all your Internet stuffs) and for sharing files with other Macs uses Appletalk. Netatalk, the linux software package, lets Linux talk Appletalk and do file sharing for Macs (similar to how Samba does filesharing for Windows on Linux). Quite sexy. Pralle 210 From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 23:00:47 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >What's the "right" way to add networking to the MAC? Just add the card >I'm not inclined to buy >into standard Ethernet, since I've got 100Mbps and am looking to move to the >bleeding edge for educational purposes. Is there any >10Gbps stuff one can >add? How about just the 100 Mbps? There are 10, 100, and 1000 cards available, but the 1000s are only for the newer PCI based Macs. That isn't to say you can't lay your hands on the Mac cheap (a 7200 can be had for nearly free)... but the giga card is likely to cost you far more than the Mac did. You can get 100 cards for NuBus... Farallon made one... but they are a little tough to come by. If you are looking to get a Mac and not use the 630, then get a PCI based Mac... 10/100 cards can be bought for those easy (and some of your off the shelf brands support the Mac... like SMC sells one of their cards and offers Mac drivers on their web site). I don't know of anything faster than a 10Mb for the LC slot in your 630... at that point, you are better off getting a cheap 10/100 switch and just use the 10Mb card. >I'm also looking for a recommendation for a decent but not too rare or >expensive 56K dialup modem that's also fax-capable. Just about any external modem will work with a Mac. Take your pick... all the major brands work fine. >I've noticed that there's software out there for doing >long-distance jibberjabber between computers on the internet. If I equip one >of these babies with that and send it to my S.O's sister in Portland, they >can >yack without running up the long distance bills. That's easily going to pay >for an older MAC in a week or so. Find a cheap Power PC mac (these can be had almost for free these days for low end ones). Make sure it is a PCI one (check apple.com's hardware specs to see which ones) -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 23:01:39 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor Message-ID: >Nickel Metal Hydride. yeah that... (I know Hydroxide didn't sound right... I was just drawing a blank on the right term) -chris From mythtech at mac.com Tue Apr 30 23:03:09 2002 From: mythtech at mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: MacEthernet (Was: RE: APPLEVISION Monitor) Message-ID: >What's Appletalk, ... I mean REALLY ... What's Appletalk? Apple's own networking protocol. -chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 30 23:18:52 2002 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: Localtalk and Appletalk In-Reply-To: <02043022563504.01339@simon> from "Tarsi" at Apr 30, 2002 10:56:35 PM Message-ID: <200205010418.g414IqU19716@shell1.aracnet.com> > Appletalk traffic can also be routed if it's encapsulated inside IP, using > Appletalk-IP-encapsulation (the Linux kernel supports encap and decap of > this). Stupid question, but could this be used to allow a MacOS X system to mount Appletalk shares on a system that doesn't support the Appletalk-IP bit that MacOS X is using? Or have recent versions of MacOS X fixed this problem? Zane From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 30 23:39:53 2002 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:06:22 2005 Subject: APPLEVISION Monitor In-Reply-To: from Chris at "Apr 30, 2 11:53:01 pm" Message-ID: <200205010439.VAA18784@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > From a IIx, if it was color, probably the 8*24GC, fairly standard card > for the day. Standard? The 8*24*GC kicks keister -- it's accelerated and has great colour output. My IIsi is visibly faster since I got one. Its chief disadvantage is that its accelerator won't run properly past System 7.1. This is a bummer. In any case, since I use 7.1 on virtually all my 68K Macs that don't run 6.0.8, I've equipped them all except the NetBSD machine with GC video cards. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov ---------- From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 1 00:11:33 2002 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:09:55 2005 Subject: Soldering and other skills (was Re: QL-Quality (Was: ZX-81 Question)) References: <3CA7D835.5E4FBA46@rain.org> <15527.58298.505188.700792@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CA7F092.3070808@internet1.net> <15527.62327.725265.883816@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Yes, I think your right. Still, I didn't realize that it contained such a high percentage of lead. Me thinks, I'll be more carefull while handleing it in the future. Lead is absorbed through the skin if I'm not mistaken. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > Nope. Solder for electronics us usually around 60% lead. You're > probably thinking of acid core vs. rosin core. > > -Dave > From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 1 00:54:20 2002 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:09:59 2005 Subject: IBM 1620 References: <3CA7D835.5E4FBA46@rain.org> <15527.58298.505188.700792@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CA7F092.3070808@internet1.net> <15527.62327.725265.883816@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3CA7FA15.7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3CA8041C.5FF4ED2@rain.org> Take a look at Yahoo vintage auctions to find the "IBM 1620 CENTRAL PROCESSING UNIT, MANUAL 1964" at http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/63778516?aucview=0x10 The current price with no bidders is $3.50.